The New Homophobia

I first became aware of this new homophobia in the summer of 2017, when I interned at a major LGBTQ-rights organization. That January, I had enrolled at Columbia University to complete my undergraduate degree, a goal I had been postponing for over a decade. After volunteering for Maryland's marriage equality campaign and a subsequent transgender rights legislation campaign, my aspiration was to become a social justice writer and activist.

My excitement about the internship quickly gave way to a nauseating mixture of fear and shame. I was, I quickly learned, not the right kind of "queer." I was just another "cis" (short for "cisgender," a word I had never even heard until it was assigned to me, typically as a slur) gay male—in other words, a privileged and unevolved relic of the past. After all, I had my rights—the right to marry, the right to serve openly in the military, the right to assimilate into this oppressive, "cisheteronormative," patriarchal society. It was time to make way for a new generation of "queer," one that had very little to do with sex-based rights and more to do with abolishing the concepts of sex and sexuality altogether.

At the time, I was exhausting so much mental energy memorizing my coworkers' pronouns and all of the new progressive dogmas out of fear that I would be fiercely condemned if I slipped up, I had none left to think critically or to question where any of these dogmas had even come from. Thankfully, and somewhat serendipitously, the following semester I enrolled in a class called U.S. Lesbian and Gay History, led by the prominent gay historian George Chauncey. It was there that the culture I had encountered at my internship—and, of course, on Columbia's uber-progressive and exceedingly "queer" campus—began to make sense.

In that class, I learned about queer theory, an obscure academic discipline based largely on the writing of the late French intellectual Michel Foucault, who believed that society categorizes people—male or female, heterosexual or homosexual—in order to oppress them. The solution is to intentionally blur—or "queer"—the boundaries of these categories. Soon this "queering" became the predominant method of discussing and analyzing gender and sexuality in universities.

With the proliferation of social media, which disseminates ideological dogma faster than any religious institution in history, academics-cum-activists can reduce these theories into palatable, easy-to-digest-and-regurgitate maxims, especially on platforms like Twitter, Tumblr and now TikTok. Which is how, suddenly, we have a massive uptick in trans- and "non-binary"-identifying youth. Queer theorists insist that subverting the categorizations which have been imposed upon young people—for example, the sex they were "assigned" at birth—is the ultimate expression of autonomy, and further, the key to liberating society from a system devised largely, so they claim, by cisgender white men. (Never mind the scientific and cultural achievements of women and racial minorities.)

This might not be a concern if, by adopting these new identities, young people were merely playing with the boundaries of normative gender expression—something that gays, lesbians, feminists, most liberals and even many conservatives would welcome two decades into the 21st century. But many young boys do not stop at simply painting their fingernails and wearing dresses, and young girls do more than cut their hair short and play football. With increasing frequency, these children are given drugs to block their puberty, cross-sex hormones and irreversible surgeries, all the while cheered on first by online communities, then the mainstream media and now the current presidential administration.

In rare instances, medicalization is the proper path for gender-nonconforming youth, in particular those whose gender dysphoria—a "marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months," as the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5 defines it—originated very early in life, causes acute mental distress and shows no signs of ceasing without medical intervention. But according to the 10 major follow-up studies on youth gender dysphoria to date, the vast majority (as much as 85 percent) end up desisting during or after puberty—that is, they become comfortable with their biological sex and no longer wish to identify as the opposite sex.

And what else did these studies find? That the vast majority identified as gay, lesbian or bisexual in adulthood.

Even without these studies, most gays and lesbians could have told you as much. Gender-nonconformity, after all, is a very common experience for most of us during childhood. I, for one, was relentlessly bullied in grade school for my femininity. "Are you a boy or a girl?" the kids would taunt, when they hadn't already flung that oh-so-effective six-letter F-word at me. As a child, spinning around in my older sisters' flowery skirts, I often imagined myself as a girl, too. Even in adulthood, I occasionally, though not often, think of myself as the opposite sex, an experience I speculate is common for gay men. After all, our inherent disposition gives us the benefit of perceiving life through a dual-gendered lens. But I have grown up to be a well-adjusted, successful, even masculine man, comfortable in his sex and, at long last—and despite the long-term effects of bullying and of a childhood spent in anti-gay religious fundamentalism—with my homosexuality.

Sure, the religious far right remains something of a threat, and I, like any other gay person, can still be stung by anti-gay slurs and can fear the threat of violence in less-accepting spaces. But today I am equally fearful of the radical activists I once longed to emulate, activists who push a regressive, anti-liberal agenda that reifies gender stereotypes, downplays the seriousness of long-term medicalization and ultimately seeks to abolish my identity—for without biological sex, there is no homosexuality. Today, the least-accepting spaces for people like me are, of all places, the halls of LGBT rights organizations, where the threat might not be violence but is nevertheless terrible stigmatization and shame.

Speaking recently about these issues with a LGBT mental health specialist—one among many who have serious concerns about the hastiness of medical transition for youth in the U.S.—it struck me that, if radical activists can convince enough people that biological sex is a farce, that "trans women are women" and "trans men are men," then the path to the full erasure of gender-role-nonconforming gay people will be fully paved.

You may have heard stories of distressed parents whose children have suddenly announced trans identification. Perhaps you are one of them. Activists who favor medical intervention often ask these parents a morbid question: "Would you rather have a trans daughter or a dead son?" But the real question should be, "Would you rather have a trans daughter or an effeminate gay son?" I fear that for many, if they were honest, the answer would be the former.

It's time that LGBT rights organizations answer to the growing number of gays, lesbians and trans people sounding the alarm on the medicalization of homosexuality by radical queer activists. And it's time Americans ask themselves, despite all the progress gays and lesbians have made in this country in recent years, how comfortable they really are with the idea of raising effeminate gay sons and masculine lesbian daughters. Our very existence depends on it.

Ben Appel is a writer based in New York. His memoir, Cis White Gay, for Post Hill Press, is forthcoming.

Pretty much spot-on.

Bored. Long, tedious and more irritating deflection from the real problem.

The religious far right "remains something of a threat"? Understatement of the year. It's the far right who are intent on stripping away every gay right. It's only a matter of time before they try and overturn Lawrence v. Texas and make homosexuality illegal again.

For those of you thinking "that'll never happen", they're already well on their way to doing so with abortion and I'm sure most most thought Roe v. Wade would never be overturned either.

[quote] It's the far right who are intent on stripping away every gay right.

And aggressive trans rhetoric is a weapon in their hands.

It’s one thing to demand “live and let live.” It’s quite another to insist that everyone erase gender from their minds.

R7. These threads go round and round in circles and accomplish absolutely nothing.

There's nothing more to say and those posting these threads are either naive about DL's view on the topic or trolls looking to incite division.

It's literally every day at this point. It's getting really annoying.

r6 should abortion even be a gay or lesbian issue?

r7 trans or feminists?

r6, I beg of you, please understand that we are being attacked from two sides now -- from the outside by the religious right in the GOP who see us as sinners and will legislate against us, and from the inside by the TQ+ crowd who have come to dominate our organizations & media to disseminate their homophobic, "queer theory" ideology that directly harms gay/lesbian youth.

Well, one thing is true. With the rights gay men are now enjoying, we are actually better off than this article suggests. So what if his little activist group is full of idiots. Go find another group.

We'll be over at the bar, or at brunch, or at a gay ass wedding reception, ready for him with a cocktail whenever he's done looking at his navel.

[quote] As a child, spinning around in my older sisters' flowery skirts, I often imagined myself as a girl, too. Even in adulthood, I occasionally, though not often, think of myself as the opposite sex, an experience I speculate is common for gay men.

As a feminist, I would really rather men & boys of all sexual orientations stopped doing this. It’s creepy, shows a lack of respect and boundaries, and reinforces patriarchal notions that harm us all. No young man ought to be going through the clothes of a young female with whom he isn’t sexually involved, let alone one to whom he’s related.

But you’re all too busy crowing about the sanctity of bathhouses, drag, and gay surrogacy to give a fuck about the group whose bodies & spaces have actually been colonised since recorded time...

[quote] I beg of you

MARY! I wasn’t sure you were a crisis actor troll until that overwrought plea. GTFOH

All very valid points and deserves a lot more consideration and discussion than will likely be given when the idiots start screaming "phobic" to shout out dissenting opinions from the current alphabet soup orthodoxy.

Tell you what, R8. As soon as people stop insisting that calling tampons a woman’s product is literal violence, I’ll stop criticizing them,

Oh brother. Stealth right-wing homophobia thread.

Give me a break.

This is like the Love In Action campaign from the late ‘90s. “I tried to be gay but the evil left wing gays wouldn’t let me!”

This is probably bought and paid for by Focus On The Family. The right-wing sure ain’t playing with their anti-trans campaign - this is their wedge issue and their going to use it to win votes in EVERY election going forward. It’s perfect for ignorant, fearful morons.

Go find another site R12. I'll keep twirling in your mother's dresses. The ones you dropped off at Goodwill because they "repressed" her.

R12, the author is full of shit. No man or boy ever thinks of themselves as a woman. I dressed up in dresses as a child, played with dolls, and even did drag professionally as an adult and never once thought of myself as a woman. The writer of this NEWSWEEK opinion piece is a troll and no gay man I’ve ever been close with has expressed a similar opinion.

R12 - He did it when he was a child, not a young man, you fucking lunatic. You are so obsessed with gay men, it is just creepy.

REMINDER: Newsweek was sold years ago. It’s no longer a reputable journalistic brand. It’s been co-opted for this shit.

R12 is satire.

Isn’t it?

R12 Sounds like one of those radical feminist trolls who think any association by men with anything 'feminine', including surrogacy, is misogynistic.

Ironic that by saying men should stay away from anything "feminine" you are essentially reinforcing unequal gender stereotypes. Maybe women should stay away from work because it is "male" and shows a lack of respect and boundaries.

Wouldn't want women to be colonized by the masculine energy of the workplace.

R14. Clearly you haven't been here long because there's so much discussion on DL that you could fill a library. Literally every day a thread like this is made, and we go on for 100+ posts arguing about the downfall of the gay community and how the radical [insert group here] are to blame. But nobody changes their mind and no interesting insights or breakthroughs are made. Because this is fucking DL.

It's exhausting and pointless.

R21 you read my mind

Sadly not, R21. She's just a miserable fucking nutcase.

If men OR boys want to put on dresses that's none of anyone else's business... And if they want to fantasize they are ladies for a day, well that makes the world a better place, as far as I'm concerned. We should all try on different hats.

Yes, thank you, R18.

That was the particular stealth take down - all gay men identify as women. Oh brother.

The idea that gender identity someone negates sexuality and there homosexual is a fucking nonsense. It’s the exact opposite.

These right-wing idiots HATE gender identity PRECISELY BECAUSE you can now say I AM GAY AND I’M A MAN. They much preferred if when they could just call you a sissy.

One day we will get a two-week break from these endless trans-hating wankfests.

To all trans-haters: what is the solution?

Should they stop existing? Or keep existing and just shut up?

Thrall us with your acumen.

As a little boy 5/6, me and my sister played dress up in my mothers clothes, walked around the house in high heels, wore her bras and slips, paraded around with no cares in the world, and very happy doing so. I turned out alright, still happy today, a normal gay American man living life to the fullest.

Gay boys make not think “I am a girl,” but I bet many of them have at times thought “I wish I was a girl.” Now, there are people ready to tell them “YOU can be a girl.”

As a gay man, I never wanted be a female, I always enjoyed being male, proud of my penis, and appreciated other men and their peens too. Life is short, you have to live Tall. :-)

[quote][R14]. Clearly you haven't been here long because there's so much discussion on DL that you could fill a library. Literally every day a thread like this is made, and we go on for 100+ posts arguing about the downfall of the gay community and how the radical [insert group here] are to blame.

Well, obviously DL has an opinion.

I was actually referring to a wider audience ouside the hallowed walls of DL which might read Newsweek and pause drinking the alphabet soup Kool Aid long enough to consider the points thoughtfully.

So, as we say on DL...die in a grease fire.

Great article, thanks for sharing OP.

It reminds me of the forced gender reassignment documentary I saw where if two men are in a couple one of them is forced to become a woman. That is next for the US.

I recall wishing I was a girl, R29. It was because they were treated so much better than boys were.

Newsweek = Irrelevant

This is a distraction that our enemies are stoking. Just as Russia pushed racial division in the sixties to distract the US, Republicans are using this fissure to split us. Don’t fall for it.

[quote] There's nothing more to say and those posting these threads are either naive about DL's view on the topic or trolls looking to incite division.

R8, that's a BINGO!

R31. Fine, let the people who read Newsweek have their moment of thought. Whatever.

Why does OP have to bring it up in our "hallowed halls" so we can once again debate it endlessly? As a topic of discussion HERE it is surely more exhausted than every hole on DL put together.

{quote] To all trans-haters: what is the solution? Should they stop existing? Or keep existing and just shut up?

I think there are far fewer genuinely trans people than the current environment suggests. A lot of people who are unhappy or confused, especially about homosexuality, are looking for answers and get swept up in Transactivism.

You want to be nonbinary? Be nonbinary. But don’t insist that everyone has to reassure you by pretending you are a revolutionary leader and the future of humanity.

Okay R36–What is DL’s view on the topic?

[quote]I think there are far fewer genuinely trans people than the current environment suggests.

Yes, because there's a whole cottage industry of reactionary assholes seeking to grab power and money based on hatred and panic over a teeny, powerless minority trying to find some kind of decent treatment in the world.

Of course they have to whip them up into an existential threat seeking to eat your kids.

Such people infest the DL and are the biggest assholes on Earth.

R39. DL doesn't have a unified view. It's just an endless, pointless discussion where nobody changes their mind.

It's practically a circle of Hell at this point.

R39, was actually referring to

[quote] trolls looking to incite division.

But that doesn't make sense without the whole bit.

R40 also gets it.

I wonder what they people who think this discussion is a circle of hell are doing in here.

Here's a solution:

Adults over the age of 18 who wish to transition should be able to do so.

Except in the case of a child under extreme mental duress, children under 18 should be left alone to develop naturally; as pointed out in the article, the vast majority of children who express gender dysphoria/non-conforming behavior desist when they reach puberty, and most of them grow up to be gay/lesbian adults.

I will use the opposite sex pronouns for an adult transwoman/transman if that person has gotten their junk chopped off -- that's commitment and I'll respect it. But if they're only adopting the "persona" of the opposite sex without doing anything to alter their body, nope, not gonna happen.

A separate, third category will need to be introduced for sports, political/social organizations, etc., so that women (and men, too, depending on the scenario) are not at a disadvantage or see their rights curbed.

Recognize that trans history is not the same as gay/lesbian history, and acknowledge that many of the claims made re trans history are largely myths. And stop calling gay men and lesbians "bigots" for expressing our natural desires.

Deal?

When DL stops saying bigoted things about gays, trans, minorities, women, etc. then I'll stop calling out bigots.

R43. Expressing frustration?

Which I know is like banging your head against a brick wall.

But the people who set these threads up daily seem so intent on doing the same thing when they vent their frustrations over queer/trans/pronouns/whatever the latest grievance is to an audience that isn't really listening.

Nonsense, genital mutilation is always unethical for the medical profession, voluntary or not. That said, there has been an asymmetry of outcomes generally. Women often make better men than the real thing, but men always make terrible women.

R47. Better cancel my vasectomy then.

[quote] This is a distraction that our enemies are stoking. Just as Russia pushed racial division in the sixties to distract the US, Republicans are using this fissure to split us. Don’t fall for it.

Just ignore it and put your head in the sand because people you don't like the side that is against it. The problem is that once you raise your head out of the ground you won't recognize the world you see.

The Trans movement seems hellbent on destroying feminism and gay rights, much more than even the majority of the religious right. And, in fact the only reason we are being lumped in with them at all, is because we stupidly let them attach themselves to us. If I was Florida or any of the other states considering parental rights bills, I would be finding a set of gay parents that support the bills and make them the face of support for them and who will call out the medical transitioning of children what it really is, a cruel and more scaring version of conversion therapy.

I never wanted to be a girl, but I have enjoyed dressing up in women's clothing before. There is nothing wrong with blurring the gender line. But, this movement doesn't do that, it doesn't blur the line, they try to reinforce the line.

[quote] Women often make better men than the real thing,

If only they had dick.

Vaectomy? What's wrong with condoms straight boy?

Why not just scroll by threads that don’t interest you and let those that want to discuss it? It seems some of you object to anyone talking about this subject because you are tired of it. The reason others continue to be interested is because the issue has not been resolved. Many people are trying to sort out the implications of lumping TQ+ in with LGB and quite a few have a sense that they are not served well by it. Why shouldn’t gay men be able to express their feelings about this issue on Datalounge, which is designed for them?

R51. I'm not actually straight or having a vasectomy of course.

But some men don't like condoms, which aren't always effective.

Surely you aren't opposed to vasectomies?

What does Whoopi say on this subject? I want to see this topic on The View immediately!

R44 basically describes what we have now. People loudly weeping that KIDS ARE BEING TRANSED are insane, grifters or evil.

R52. How much self-expression does DL need on the topic? At a certain point it becomes like beating a dead horse.

And does anyone seriously think the issue will be resolved on DL of all places? Barely anybody listens to anyone else on here.

The whole transgender issue is given disproportionate attention by the media, fueled by political activists on both sides. Most people probably have a live and let live attitude, but don’t want to hear about it all the time.

People listen, but there's a group who's here to stir shit up, either for money or kicks or cause they're compulsively insane.

They are the ones who cant stop wetting themselves over KIDS BEING TRANSED or whatever. Normal people can come to a workable solution to trans acceptance. Most Americans think being kind and courteous is important.

It's only the Bill O'Reillys of the world that this is controversial to.

[quote] People loudly weeping that KIDS ARE BEING TRANSED are insane, grifters or evil.

It's happening in my own family. My nephew is in the Army; while he was off stationed first in Poland and then in South Korea, his wife got a roommate, a self-described "wiccan" who persuaded the wife that their femme-acting 8 year old son is actually a girl, so now their raising him as "Luna" and have instructed school officials to treat him as a girl.

That is what is insane, grifting, and evil.

R58–Republicans pick their campaign wedge issue very carefully with lots of empirical research. They are making trans an issue in the election. That means a lot of people care.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS???

WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO ABOUT IT???

EVERY FUCKING DAY WITH THIS RELENTLESS GARBAGE ABOUT TRANSPERSONS.

ENOUGH

ALREADY.

^this is why they hate you

R56 If no one were interested, the threads would wither away. Just because an issue doesn’t get resolved doesn’t mean there is no value in discussing it, even if it is just to vent. One could say the same thing about many political issues. There must be plenty of threads on things you aren’t interested in. How does it hurt you to ignore them?

[quote] Normal people can come to a workable solution to trans acceptance.

Uh, no. The translunacy is oppressive, regressive, illogical and dictatorial. Unacceptable to the normal, sane.

[quote] WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO ABOUT IT???

See r44. If you don't recognize how harmful the TQ+ ideology is to women, gay men/lesbians, and children, I don't know what else to say.

[quote] Uh, no. The translunacy is oppressive, regressive, illogical and dictatorial. Unacceptable to the normal, sane.

If this is such a threat to you, go fucking do something about it. March the streets. Run for public office. Posting thread after thread on DL is literally the least you can do.

GO OUT INTO THE REAL WORLD AND DO SOMETHING.

[quote] Most Americans think being kind and courteous is important.

There's nothing "kind" or "courteous" about men in dresses demanding to be called women.

[quote] See [R44]. If you don't recognize how harmful the TQ+ ideology is to women, gay men/lesbians, and children, I don't know what else to say.

NOT A RESPONSE TO WHAT I SAID. Nowhere do I say what you are accusing me of.

GROW UP. GROW A PAIR. GET OFF DATALOUNGE. AND DO SOMETHING.

I have a young new colleague who i assumed was gay. but nope, “they” are just a nail-polish wearing straight person who’s married to a woman. “They” majored in gender studies and are all in on RuPaul and queer culture. I can’t help but think this was just a social outcast who found his tribe and has adopted this identity because it suits them. Fine, whatever. But also, you present as male. You were born male. To my knowledge you have no interest in transitioning to anything. What even are you beyond a LGBTQIA fanboy? What’s the point?

R66 steps right up to reinforce the dictatorial aspect.

I really appreciated the piece OP quoted. It's the first time I've read anything close to my own take on the matter with the glaring exception, for me, of ever wishing or thinking I was a girl. It's why I can't understand the current state of this trans-gay issue. I know it's a non-representative sample by its nature, but none of my gay friends or people I'm close enough with to know has expressed this desire; in fact, my close friend and I have repeated a variation of "I am so glad I was born a boy, I love my penis, I love other men's penises and everything about being a man and men so much that I cannot conceive of wanting to be a woman" so often that we have the shorthand "I love my dick" to express the whole concept in our private conversations.

I think R49 has hit the nail on the head with:

[quote]The problem is that once you raise your head out of the ground you won't recognize the world you see.

which explains how the trans community has been able to sweep into traditionally LGB organizations and take over the message and function of these orgs. Like many gay men, when the SCOTUS legalized marriage for all, it was like a boulder the size of the planet was lifted from my shoulders and for the first time in my life I was able to just live my life with my husband and not have to pay constant attention (read: activism, donating money and effort, organizing, protesting... all of it) to defending my basic rights. It didn't come to me overnight as the prohibition was lifted; I realized after 6 months or so that my interest in political issues was taking a back seat to other more personal matters, because that burden was lifted by the court. Fast forward 8 years and as I survey the landscape, I wonder how we went from hailing gay men who fought back at Stonewall (using that as a metaphor for all of the protest, organizing and activism that conceived the gay rights movement) as heroes to thinking that it was really drag queens and trans who were the backbone of the movement. Bull. shit.

I'll probably be blasted for saying this, but it's time gay men realize we're being used by opposing forces to achieve their ends, and we won't like either result. I do not want to see young gay boys and girls being tortured into gender reassignment. That the studies show that those who identify as trans before puberty then come to grips with their sexual orientation and grow to become LG and B adults is a statistic to which we should all be paying far more attention. Looking back at my own childhood, and despite never wanting to be a girl, I worry that if I were a child today, I would be labelled too effeminate and "coached" — for lack of a better word — into thinking I was trans. In many ways, it's the flip side of the homosexual coin, and I think at the root of it all, is the concept for most straight people of homosexuality writ large.

tl;dr: being gay is not synonymous with being trans, regardless of age.

[quote] GET OFF DATALOUNGE. AND DO SOMETHING.

R68 Datalounge is an adult discussion board. Discussing the translunacy on this forum IS doing something.

[quote] Discussing the translunacy on this forum IS doing something.

No, it isn't. You are not engaging anyone in discussion. You are not trying to re-assert gay men at the head of gay organizations. You are merely repeating talking points and preaching to the choir.

Take it to the trans if they are your mortal enemy.

You are doing nothing here.

It’s actually a complex topic and many of us are pulled in multiple directions. Discussion is important.

[quote] It’s actually a complex topic and many of us are pulled in multiple directions. Discussion is important.

Horseshit.

[quote]Why does OP have to bring it up in our "hallowed halls" so we can once again debate it endlessly? As a topic of discussion HERE it is surely more exhausted than every hole on DL put together.

LOL - of course, you don't get that "hallowed walls" was on purpose.

Take your tiny brain and think, for a hot minute, what the difference in meaning is.

r73, this is a discussion board for gay men. This is an issue directly affecting gay men and especially gay youth. So we're discussing it. If you don't want to discuss it, you can scroll on by....

[quote[ No, it isn't. You are not engaging anyone in discussion.

R73 needs to look up the word discussion. And after you do, you'll realize that that is exactly what goes on here. Discussion. Exchange of opinions, ideas. Which you seem to be hell-bent on curtailing. Yet more of that dictatorial aspect.

[quote]Sure, the religious far right remains something of a threat

And that's where i stopped reading, if remembering a few pronouns and pretending "cis" is a slur is the biggest threat to him then he has no real problems in life. Downplaying the fact that religious conservatives/radfems are comfortable with gender non-conformity when they spend most of their time harassing and targeting gender non-conforming people/lgbt calling them groomers and predators and trying to strip us of our rights. But yeah sure let's pretend trans are the real threat here.

Don't give a flying fuck if a few feminine men or butch women want to transition to trans,

It doesn't affect the larger demographic of gay people or gay youth. What does actually harm gay people is the religious right trying to remove our rights, which harms ALL gay people. Maybe he should get a sense of perspective.

r79, the religious right actually became rather muted in the late 2010s as a) they had been defeated in the major battles (marriage, military, etc.) and b) Trump refocused their attention on other issues. But the TQ+ crowd has given them new ammunition to attack gays, they're now following through, and we need to recognize that. Nobody, I repeat, nobody is advocating that we ignore the religious right, but we also cannot ignore the harm that is coming from the TQ+ people and their insidious ideology (which is as much a religious dogma as any pushed forward by a Christian right activist).

[quote]There's nothing "kind" or "courteous" about men in dresses demanding to be called women.

There can be kindness and courtesy in how you react. Most normal people will shrug their shoulders and say 'it's not me, but god bless that person.'

It is only the vicious, the crazy, or the paid-for who think "I'M BEING OPPRESSED BY THESE PRONOUNS!!!!"

The thing that cracks me up about these anti-trans loons is they try to pretend they’re worried about people’s health.

These are the same people who ELECTROCUTED homosexuals to CURE them.

r82, by using the pronouns demanded of you, you're endorsing a dogmatic ideology that's as insidious as any dogmatic religion. You can't force me to believe in your god and so you can't force me to believe in your ideology.

R83, the trans loons are promoting sterilisation and gender mutilation to "cure" homosexuals today. There's no difference between "medics" and "psychiatrists" who transition both adults and children and the medics who electrocuted homosexuals 50-60 years ago.

It's precisely because homosexuals - lesbians and gay men - have suffered so much to be able to live our lives that I have no time for this piece of shit trans ideology that tries to invalidate biological sex and claims that lesbians can have penises and gay can men have vaginas.

I read something about this topic almost every day online. I've never personally known a trans person, I've just seen a few in passing. I've also never heard anyone in real life discuss it.

Is it really a massive deal? I feel like it's been blown massively out of proportion and it almost solely online.

[quote] by using the pronouns demanded of you, you're endorsing a dogmatic ideology that's as insidious as any dogmatic religion. You can't force me to believe in your god and so you can't force me to believe in your ideology.

Or you could just choose to not be a total asshole to a stranger and use a pronoun they prefer. It costs you nothing and makes them happier - even a little.

It's called living in a society, something that the incel Klan Grannies of the DL can't seem to figure out.

This definition of transgender from a 10th grade English test seems a bit ... expansive.

r87, it's the same as a Christian asking you if you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior -- tell me, how do you respond to that? Just go along to be "kind"?

A decent, not-insane person would smile and nod and keep walking and not start some scream fest about the many crimes of Christendom.

This is what adults do in conversation all the time. But to the incel Klan Grannies of the DL, it's beyond them.

All the more reason to stay out of eldergay bars.

Well then, r90, that's all I would do, too, if confronted with TQ+ demands: nod, smile, ignore them and go on with my life. Your inner feelings do not demand my acquiescence.

R9: Yes, it should be a gay or lesbian issue as it affects us too. (Because I know you're going to go this route) if you think it doesn't and that we shouldn't care because of that, then using that reasoning, most people shouldn't care about trans rights since most people aren't trans. And to your second questions: Trans.

[quote] There's nothing more to say and those posting these threads are either naive about DL's view on the topic or trolls looking to [bold]incite division[/bold].

I've been here for damn near 15 years and DL was never in favor of trannies. Despite what the swarm of not-so-subtle trannies invading our boundaries of our safe space (Ah! A pattern) and rewriting history (ANOTHER pattern) will claim.

r28, it's not weird at that age -- children of both sexes dress up when they're that young. If you're 17 and stealing your mother's stalkings to wear, that's when it gets weird and boundary crossing. Ditto if you did a Bruce Jenner and raided your underage daughters' panty drawer to wear their underwear and you could feel more like a woman.

[quote] Your inner feelings do not demand my acquiescence.

Sure. But they don't warrant the creation of a nationwide sex panic that rips up families and puts lives in danger.

So, r93, who is creating that panic? The TQ+ crowd attempting to indoctrinate children into their ideology or the parents justifiably horrified by what's happening?

All I know to say is…

Poop poop de doop. Poop poop de doop.

r16 It can only become a serious wedge issue if Democrats are dumb about how they respond to the demands of so called trans rights activists.

[quote]who is creating that panic?

I guess my problem is that I'm old enough to remember the same fucking assholes using the same fucking nasty accusations against gay activists 20-30 years ago.

The Religious Right is losing power. They don't have the numbers or the cultural support for their shit like they used to. They're not gonna give up and change. So what they'll do is use shreds of bullshit to create a panic and secure power through lies and gerrymandering.

You're helping. Congrats!

^^Don’t agree

r98 Actually I'd say it's you that's helping by not applying pressure to the Democrats to sift the wheat from the chaff, the legitimate demanda of trans activists from the illegitimate unreasonable demands and instead tell people don't bother to try and do the hard work of discerning and creating sound policy but give the trans activists everything they demand regardless of merit or you are playing into the republicans hands By taking that attitude you are weakening the dems and alienating voters not to mention giving the toxic impression that the democrat party is so rootless that it can be hijacked by any activist base no matter how fringe or crazy. You are creating a non existent moral obligation on dem voters to support anything as long as its successfully hitched itself under the democrat banner or umbrella. If you can't see how that fundamentally weakens the democrat party then that is a big problem.

[quote]As a feminist, I would really rather men & boys of all sexual orientations stopped doing this. It’s creepy, shows a lack of respect and boundaries, and reinforces patriarchal notions that harm us all. No young man ought to be going through the clothes of a young female with whom he isn’t sexually involved, let alone one to whom he’s related.

I've always had a theory about this and reason why gay boys are seen as effeminate. We are at our base social animals and our natural drive is to attract a partner like most other animals. Unbeknownst to most gay boys, they begin to take on the qualities, try on the things that attracts the sex they are attracted to themselves. Gay boys look to their aunts, mothers, and the reactions of the men around them to how these woman act, what they wear. Gay boys are simply taking on what society says humans do to attract men. It doesn't mean they want to be women themselves. They only want to attract men.

The Democratic party has not passed a single law, federally, to support the TRANS agenda.

Most hate-crime statutes nationwide don't protect trans people from violence.

Republicans, across the country, have a huge anti-trans legislative agenda.

But it's on ME to pressure the Dems to...do what exactly?

Is this more Twitter bullshit?

An interesting theory, R101. I think it's more complicated than that, and I'm not sure the mating instinct kicks in until a child reaches puberty (although I will concede that adults project their mating rituals on children — hence asking and prodding toddlers through pre-teens about their boy/girl friends, as though they understand the concept, thinking it's just so cute!). It also underlays the idea that we (gay men) need representation as much as any minority; seeing adults like yourself leading productive, happy lives is paramount to leading a productive happy life yourself. It's why straight adults get away with telling children that it's so cute when they profess attraction/friendship with an opposite-gender child. It's also why the Republicans have been able to generate so much heat (for example, in Florida with the Don't Say Gay bill); the thought, to straight people anyway, of showing a child that adults of the same gender can and do form happy and fulfilling unions, is just a bridge too far.

r101 The Democrats have been pushing very hard to pass the equalities act have they not which weakens sex as a class and legal definition? Biden press Secretary only recently indicated that puberty blockers are the correct treatment for yrans teenagers and states that didn't conform could face action by the administration? I am not surprising that a person who was dishing out false choices and moral obligations and blame to others only a few posts back gets snarky when someone puts moral obligation on to them!

That "flag" is an abomination. It reflects chaotic minds.

r32, what is this documentary you refer to?

Good piece, OP.

Newsweek is not really a reliable source of news anymore (sadly). It is pretty right wing.

[quote]The Democrats have been pushing very hard to pass the equalities act have they not which weakens sex as a class and legal definition?

The Democratic-controlled House has, in fact, passed the EQUALITY Act (not equalities) which simply adds trans people into current hate-crimes, and protected-class legislation.

It does nothing to "weaken sex as a class" or whatever that jumble of words was supposed to mean.

You may guess what happened to it in the Senate.

r12 Ma'am, you are screaming into the void, here.

[quote]Or you could just choose to not be a total asshole to a stranger and use a pronoun they prefer.

Why would I need to know that about a stranger, and why does that person think it's a piece of vital information to me? I certainly don't think it's relevant to let the supermarket checker know I'm gay, much less my "pronouns."

Moreover, if I were to address a stranger, it would be by their first name or the word "you" — not "she/they" or whatnot.

[quote]Gay boys look to their aunts, mothers, and the reactions of the men around them to how these woman act, what they wear. Gay boys are simply taking on what society says humans do to attract men. It doesn't mean they want to be women themselves. They only want to attract men.

Ironically, it was these same observations I had as a young girl that made me choose to do the [bold]exact[/bold] opposite to repel males by making myself as masculine and repulsive as my genetics would permit.

So, this explanation makes perfect sense.

R113. First, paywall.

Second, I hate articles that claim to "really know what people are thinking". If people aren't willing to say it in public, they're probably not willing to say it to the NYT.

THE FAILING NEW YORK TIMES

very sad

Depressing that some people are so politically partisan and ideological, that all they can do to respond to an article like this is start screaming about the Right. Do you seriously think we don't all know the Far Right is a major threat to us as gay men? Sophisticated adults can talk about more than one thing and recognise multiple threats at once. If you don't think the far left is a real threat to you as well you are fucking historically ignorant.

R117. What history does the "far left" have with persecuting gay men?

R12 Parody?

[quote]If people aren't willing to say it in public, they're probably not willing to say it to the NYT.

R114, here's an archive link. It's a long piece, I tried to copy/paste & condense it but DL has a character count limit so it would have taken too much effort & editing - the author does address what you just said:

[quote]The effects of this debate-ending impulse on liberal discourse is the third complexity lurking behind my initial categorization. Within liberaldom right now you literally cannot know, outside of private conversation, whether someone is fully in the first camp, more inclined to the second camp or even drawn toward the third. There is a gap between what people are willing to say in public and what they really think that’s unprecedented on any controversial issue I have seen.

[quote]This — call it discretion, if you want — is partly voluntary, based on a desire to be a good ally, to show maximal kindness, and not give any aid and comfort to conservatives, Republicans, Ron DeSantis.

[quote]But it’s also enforced: A version of the Rowling vortex quickly surrounds anyone who argues skeptically about the rise in transgender identification or suggests that hormonal and surgical treatments are being overused, whether that person is a journalist, an author, an academic researcher, even a gender-dysphoria clinician.

[quote]That enforcement has not prevented these skeptics from presenting their arguments, from having books that sell or well-subscribed Substacks. But it effectively limits debate within crucial liberal institutions, so that the skeptical position feels almost untouchable in the academy.

[quote]This increasingly means that American liberalism all the way up to the Biden administration is drifting away, on these questions, even from the most liberal and secular parts of Europe. From Britain to Sweden there is an increasingly vigorous debate around adolescent medical interventions, widespread doubts that they are actually supported by the data and a partial reconsideration of their general application to transgender-identifying youth. In liberal America there is mostly just an orthodoxy, even if the cracks show here and there.

Gay Lesbian Bisexual = sexuality issues

Trans, Queer etc. = gender and identity issues

Gays were routinely executed and sent to gulags in communist countries within all of our lifetimes. Read a fucking book.

Look at the LITERALLY VIOLENT rhetoric that is routinely posted on social media by some trans accounts.

Thanks, r120.

Che Guevara shared the same homophobic views of Fidel Castro, not because some passive reaction to “masses not prepared”, but because of a particular dislike that revolutionaries held on homosexuals. In the words of Castro, they wanted to create a new type of, quote, “…virile people, able to fight against imperialism”. For them, homosexuals were a distraction that subtracted forces from the Cuban youth. They also considered them to be “degenerated people”.

They created a framework to incarcerate homosexuals by the thousands in militarized, forced labor camps called UMAPs (which stands for Military Units to Aid Production, in Spanish).

The idea of UMAPs started in the first years of the 1960s, when two of the most important figures in the Castro regime: Raúl Castro (then Minister of the Defense) and Ramiro Valdés (then Minister of the Interior), toured communist countries such as China and Bulgaria, requesting technical assistance to end “the homosexuality problem”. The advice received from Mao Zedong’s China (killing them all) was considered too harsh, so they selected the method recommended by Todor Zhivkov’s Bulgaria. Basically, a Bulgarian psychologist had developed a “scientific” method to “cure” homosexuality by means of forced labor work, combined with education about the benefits of having heterosexual sex.

UMAPs started to operate in 1965, when Che Guevara was still one of the leaders of the Cuban government, and operated continuously until 1968. Because homosexuality was not explicitly considered a crime under the law, a new figure was created to legalize incarceration, called “Improper Behavior”. That loosely-defined term allowed to include, not only homosexuals, but also people who practiced religious beliefs, hippies, people who dared to listen English-spoken music (such as The Beatles), bohemians, etc.

If I were to go on his social media something tells me I would find a lot of content shared from right wing/conservatives homophobes. It's the case with these so-called "concerned" gay male supporters of rafems/terf rhetoric, they don't actually care about homophobia or gay youth, they just want to incessantly whine about trans and do nothing to actually help gay people. They have more in common with the gays for trump crowd.

Well why don't you go on his social media now and find out instead of speculating.

UMAPs were closed in 1968, under pressure from leftist European intellectuals. Curiously, Che Guevara was killed in October of the previous year. While UMAP camps ceased to formally exist, government-fueled discrimination toward homosexuals continued in Cuba until the 1990s. They were often beaten, spitted and insulted in lynching acts called “repudiation rallies”. The worst year in the after-UMAP period was 1980, when hundred of them were repudiated in public rallies and forced to abandon Cuba during the Mariel boatlift. The vast majority of homosexuals tried to conceal their true sexual orientation to protect their livelihoods. Being discovered as homosexual was sufficient reason for people to be expelled and vetoed from prestigious jobs and from universities.

In conclusion, Che Guevara and Fidel Castro were definitely homophobic, even by the standards of the time. Their actions destroyed the lives of thousands of innocent people. Documentary evidence can be consulted for more evidence on the topic.

R120. Yes, thanks for posting the link and highlighting some of the relevant quotes.

But I'm not sure the author actually addressed the issue of, essentially, "how do you know what people are really thinking?"

The author doesn't actually know, they're just pointing out that skepticism exists but there's societal pressure to conceal it. But that doesn't mean it is widely held, it just means that it exists. Unless they're interviewing 1000s of people and getting their "real thoughts" I'm not inclined to believe there are "secret views" that are widely held.

I also disagree about the difference between Europe and the US. I think how America differs from Europe and Britain is not any distinction in the ability to have open conversations, it's that everything in the US is politicized and turned into yet another aspect of a stupid culture war. Europe and Britain generally don't really care about this stuff and leave it to people with an actual interest in the topic to discuss.

The US seems adamant on turning every little issue into yet another flashpoint for how things going to shit, thinking that even the tiniest issues should somehow impact everyone else. It's ridiculous and distracting from real issues.

R12 "as a feminist" why don't you take your creepy incel terf arse back to 4chan or mumset. Nobody here is obligated to care about your imaginary problems.

Most of the comments on the article have been overwhelmingly positive.

R128, that may have to with the differences in our governments (parliamentary vs republic) and political parties (many vs two).

Most gay men I have known do not support the absurd notion of having an identity based on who you are fucking. Therefore the LGB agenda is bogus. Since I don't know any pedophiles, no one I know supports the T agenda.

R131. I have no doubt that's a big part of it. People are becoming aware of minor issues because they have to fit somewhere on this huge platform that people call a "party".

But I also think Americans feel entitled to share their opinions even when they know little about the subject. Everyone from politicians, to doctors, to truckers has an opinion on every single issue, even when they are public health concerns (like masking), and everyone thinks their opinions are valid. The parties share some blame for that because everyone feels like if it exists on the party's platform they have to have an opinion on it.

But I also blame on the media for their relentless relativism on everything from climate change to public health. It's cynical, anti-intellectual, and bad for democracy.

[quote]the religious right actually became rather muted in the late 2010s

That's some dishonest bull, R81, they were still dragging their heels with all their cake baking / refusing gay marriage licenses controversies and gays being in the military long after 2010. Trans makes no difference to them since they don't see a distinction between gay and trans. Nothing has changed they still use the same old tactics as before just different words.

If you were gay you'd understand that.

[quote]15 years and DL was never in favor of trannies. Despite what the swarm of not-so-subtle trannies invading our boundaries

Been on DL for 6 years now yet to see any "swarm of trannies," seen plenty of terfs/fraus. DL is indifferent to their "plight".

[quote]These are the same people who ELECTROCUTED homosexuals to CURE them.

As opposed to the middle east where they sewed guys' dicks inside out into a makeshift pussy in order to cure them i.e. transed them.

Who's the enemy? You stupid right wing, archaic, religious zealot piece of nazi shit.

Fucking troll.

[quote]dogmatic ideology that's as insidious as any dogmatic religion.

Um, Hundreds of millions of people have been killed over the centuries (and are STILL being killed) in the name of religion.

No one died over a pronoun, except for your hurt feelings., R84.

R122. Communist countries were only far-left on economic issues.

They were still very far-right on social issues as evidenced by the various persecutions conducted against Jews and any other minority they disliked.

And the "literal violence" Twitter crowd are insane but powerless. By adopting a victim complex you are handing them far more power than they actually have.

Hundreds of millions of people were killed last century in the name of far left ideology. Read a fucking book. Religion and ideology operate in the exact same way. A god doesn't need to be involved.

BAN OP.....Nobody needs opinions on homophobia or ramblings...

Calls himself a terf and tweets comments from homophobe conservatives. That's all I need to know about that idiot at R95

"new homphobia" my ass. Way to show yourself up.

Appel hates AJLT too. He must be a Datalounger.

r138, you're right: the TQ+ ideology prefers its victims alive but mutilated & infertile, with brittle bones and possibly at a higher risk of cancer.

Oh, R95, and would you look at that, one of his homophobe terf pals, Denies Noel Kavanagh, just recently said he'd prefer it if gay men had AIDS rather than see support for trans. To him it was better when thousands of gay men died from AIDS because that's how much he hates trans, and some concocted conspiracy theory how "trans are just jealous because they don't have a mountain of dead bodies for victimization/pity points like us gay men do."

This is the typical mental rot that comes out of the mind of these deranged "terf" creeps. They really have no decency, theyll exploit anything just to point score with trans, so please tell me again why l should believe anything they have to say?

And of course JK Rowling was there to show him support.

Trans is religious dogma, trans is Nazism, trans is Marxism, trans is Communism, trans is Capitalism, trans is groomer, trans is predator, trans invading my space, trans took my job....

this is what comes out of the mind of a typical terf and this is why you sound so unhinged to normal people.

R140. You need to calm down.

You also need to make a distinction between the left-right continuum on social issues and the left-right continuum on economic issues. Not everyone sits on the same left-right dichotomy, that's why you have libertarians who support abortion but want to privatize healthcare, whilst the Christian right want to ban abortion but generally are in favor of state-subsidized healthcare.

Communists in the last century killed tens of thousands because of their far-left economic policies but also because of their far-right social policies. But mostly they killed people to keep power, same as any dictatorship.

Trying to compare the communist regimes of the 50s/60s to modern left-wing politicians is the tactic of the GOP who love to try taint any left-wing policies as "communist", including one's that people often support. It's reductive, fallacious, and unhelpful.

[quote]bad for democracy.

R106, I don't know which documentary was being referred to, but here's one.

R95, So he's not really against homophobia he's just mad a trans? Lol, What a fucking surprise. 🙄

R126, See the tool at R95, espousing the same phoney concern for "new homophobia" while retweeting right-wing homophobes.

Surprise there isn't more concern or outrage among the gay community. Maybe there isn't such a thing anymore as "gay community"... but what's happening in the astonishing progress of the extremist rightwing movement will very clearly keep going. Are you gay and a teacher? Nope, we are pulling your credential. "Parents don't want their children exposed to these deviants and groomers!! Gov't is not going to get in the way of what parents want!!".... and then "same sex marriage" will be next. I guess my marriage to my partner of 27 years will be annulled.

It was pact with the devil when Republicans decided that MAGA and Trump were not only their path to power, but correct in their racist, homophobic, misogynistic autocracy. Now any time you see a gleeful extremist complain about "wokism", they really mean the "gays" should not be teachers, maybe even should be arrested. There are "anti-wokers" here on DL... they hate social just warriors and they hat virtue signaling... and unfortunately they also hate virtue.

R151 What self-righteous stupidity.

R151. I agree. It's ridiculous that we are turning on each other when the GOP want to nullify same-sex marriage.

R152. What a pointless comment. Maybe you should reflect on your own self-righteous stupidity.

Just spent a few minutes on Denies Noel Kavanagh Twitter account and I regret it. What a lunatic. This guy is supposedly "defending gays from trans" while also saying we should get AIDS because it's nicer. Him and his ilk can fuck right off.

Reply 147: "All those Communist regimes just weren't real left wingers" / "Nobody has ever tried real communism".... and on and on.

And yet the exact same patterns play out again and again over time with no change. With the focus on economic class supplanted by a focus o identity, we have swarms of heavily ideologised Twitters trans accounts calling for gays to be sent to gulags and for "terfs" to be executed.

NOTHING ever changes.

"Twitter is Silencing Gay Men" No, it's just silencing you, you homophobic piece of shit.

And what a shocker, he's boosting right wing homophobes on his account as well. These "TERF gays" are hilariously embarrassing, even more so than MAGAt gays.

R151 Well argued! You were on the college debate team, right?

Ha ^^ was for R152

People generally don't have a problem with gays, they do have a problem with the TQ+.

Gay people distanced themselves from organizations like NAMBLA and PIE who waned a seat at the table. Gay people didn't want to preach sexuality to little kids. The new trans cult and "queer" cult want to mainstream their insane ideology by getting to little kids, and their forced teaming with gay people is bringing us all down.

Why do trans and "queer" straight people want to use gay people as a shield? It's all happening quickly and there is a lot of money behind it. Wake up. You're being used.

R159 Exactly Gays, Bisexuals, and Lesbians spent a lot of time and energy convincing people we really don't want to "recruit" children and now the fucking trans and queer ones, including teachers, are fighting to do just that. I don't want any part of that. If you really want to normalize same-sex couples to children, fine. I'm perfectly fine with cartoons where a character has two mommys or two daddys but we don't need to explain to children that there is a difference beyond that some people have a mommy and a daddy and some people have daddy and daddy and mommy and mommy. They don't need an hour long lecture about what that entails or about their teacher's personal life.

R159, "preaching sexuality to kids" gays weren't walking around like we were sexless zombies until we reached 18 years of age. No one is bringing us down except for idiots like you.

I can hate the person behind Libs Of TikTok, and still admit some of the teacher videos she's exposed were disgusting and wildly inappropriate. If you haven't seen them I suggest you watch. Painting this issue as a bunch of right wing nutcases being upset that a teacher told the class they were gay is extremely dishonest. There's as certain type of (usually female) teacher who comes straight out of the Queer Theory college pipeline, full of resentment and talking points, and into teaching work, who feels it's a religious duty to spread their dogma.

[quote]I was just another "cis" (short for "cisgender," a word I had never even heard until it was assigned to me, typically as a slur) gay male

Anyone with an ounce of sense would have stopped reading right here, because there's no way someone involved in gay rights or LGBT rights on any level would have not heard the word "cis" until he went to volunteer with one specific rights group.

Also, Newsweek is owned by far-right propagandists now, connected to the Moonies of all people.

[quote]People generally don't have a problem with gays

R159 I fear you are in deep denial. The White New Christian Right thinks gay people are contrary to God's will, perverts, sinners who have chosen to reject God's plan for their lives. They believe that children are not safe around gay people.

Denying this is a problem for "our" future.

Jews in 1932 Germany thought "oh they hate the communists and gypsies, they don't really hate us..."

R59, Hilarious post. The Russian troll is getting creative.

R161 The Florida bill and the others like it is about K-third grade. Do you think is right to teach about any sort of sexual issue to children in K-3rd grade? I don't. I don't think they need to know anything about straight, gay, bi, or lesbian sex or orientations. Let kids be kids for as long as possible. I also don't think they need to be confused by the fairy tale that they can switch their genders.

r109 Of course it dilutes sex based rights.If you encourage and make it possible for someone to self ID themselves into a category with relative ease ,ANY CATEGORY but in this case we are talking about men self id ing themselves as women and then gaining rights to enter women only spaces then that category becomes meaningless.

It seems to be something that is only done with biological sex.It would not be acceptable for a white person to self id themselves as black or asian or for a black or asian person to self id as a white person or for a novice to self ID as a doctor or lawyer.So why do some increasingly say its ok for a man to self id as a woman?? If you are a man who thinks of themselves as a woman , if you accept that argument then you are a trans woman NOT a woman but a trans woman.

R166. What a tired argument. Now anyone who tries to say anything against the "let kids be kids" argument is going to be called a "groomer" or pedo by you lot.

It's all so predictable.

R166 You are conflating issues, and that's just a serious form of denial.

There are books for beginning readers that show families with two parents of the same gender. This is huge for a child from such a home. It is hardly harmful to anyone else.

But the Christianist, and apparently you, think this should be illegal.

I'm baffled this has happened to us.

R169 What's happening to us is we're getting sucked into the same stupid arguments by the same group of actors over and over again. And people on DL seem incapable of learning.

Seriously everyone, read through this 160+ thread now and I hope you'll recognize the exhausting lunacy that this stupid topic engenders. From top to bottom it's just the same talking points, screeching, and talking past each other, over and over and over again.

Nothing is resolved. Everything that has been expressed here has been expressed countless times before in previous threads. There is no value in any of this because this is literally the same discussion almost every single day. It's like everyone here is trapped in a horrific version of Groundhog Day.

People need to recognize that this, and every previous and subsequent thread on the topic is utterly pointless. Nothing that you or anyone else says here will actually matter, because it's all been repeated countless times before and nobody's actually listening.

R169 And their parents can buy them those books, there are plenty of books not in schools. I'm sure it would make evangelical kids feel better if we had children's picture bibles in the school library, but I don't support that either.

I just don't think it needs to be a "thing," show us just existing in the world without drawing attention to us being LGB. That is equality and inclusion, when we just exist without the need to comment on it. Young children are just learning the differences between humans and animals, they can learn about how we are all different in fourth grade. Before that if they learn anything about such subjects, it should be from their parents.

Okay, then FF the thread and let Muriel take care of it.

It was over the moment "T" was added to LGB and we willingly accepted, instead of rejecting.

[quote]I'm baffled this has happened to us.

Really? Because the rightwing, Mumsnet, KiwiFarms, Milo-loving anti-trans trolls have been here since about 2016, and they're saying the same things they said back then, and some of us were trying to tell DLers that this was a rightwing troll operation and indicative of where the Republicans were taking their political party, and we were ignored.

Homophobic laws were getting introduced and passed and DLers just let those threads get taken over by anti-trans trolls who said they were a good thing.

Now that it's finally clear, the Libs of Tik Tok crap, that the Repugs are PAYING to astroturf the internet with homophobia, you are suddenly shocked.

I'm not trying to scold you but I'm just so fucking frustrated that this has been going on for years and only NOW are people starting to understand what this was all about.

r170 is right in that nothing said on DL will matter in the long run, but our trolls have always been a bellwether for what's going on in the larger world.

In order to reject something the gay community have to first be asked. The activist industrial complex never asked and they still don't want feedback.

r170 The issues being discussed are important with real serious tangible implications in reality.It is not stupid to debate that.Is it really wise to request difficult issues are zero debated in a democracy especially? That is a a dangerous path to walk.

[quote]Okay, then FF the thread and let Muriel take care of it.

Are you fucking new? Mediapolis doesn't give a shit.

These fucking anti-trans trolls were shilling merchandise, hats and tote bags and t-shirts, and I emailed DL to ask why this was okay, received no answer, and the threads stayed up.

I am honestly embarrassed at how out of touch so many on DL are.

r174 You are effectively asking left wing people to accept everything trans activists request , no debate otherwise it might help republicans. That is a very manipulative tactic to wave things through in an unconsidered way.I would say you are as guilty of exploiting this for political motives as republican party is just from the opposite end of the telescope.

Political debate has to be WITHIN parties or sides and not just between parties and sides.

R8 R170 Shift a couple points, and you have an important addition to the mental health of DL and the nation.

BUT... the right is making progress because no one calls them on their reactionary culture war lunacies.. they roll out the talking points on social media and wear anyone down. What's the point? This shit helps WIN ELECTIONS which is the serious part. The Michigan state rep who pushed back against the Repub MAGA Mom who called her a "groomer" is what needs to happen more. The Lt Gove of PA who is running for Senate won't take their shit, he pushes back...

Endlessly trying to win these arguments on DL? Maybe not the same caliber of effort. But there is a culture war.... we didn't start it, but we can lose it, and there are consequences of that loss.

The only "response" the trans loons have to the article (and any criticism of their insane agenda) is....

But.... it's the GOP!!!! But what about the RIGHT WING!!!! Don't look here, look over there!!!!!!

Their brains can't understand that homophobia can come from TWO places at the same time.

And they have no ACTUAL retort or defense of their insanity, so instead they scream "But what about them??? What about them!???"

Morons

R179. I agree. Call them out at town hall meetings or by sending letters to representatives. Or even by organizing local protest groups.

But I am just so exhausted at seeing the debate rage endless on DL to absolutely no effect. And even engaging with it is how the Right wins by making the conversation so exhausting that people don't go out and protest at town hall meetings or put together letters to their representatives, or even bother to think about the issue at all.

My suspicion is that this is the true purpose of having these threads pop up every single day. And why certain individuals choose to prod the conversation whenever it seems to die down - attrition. The culture war is important but it won't be won on DL, and certainly not on threads like this one.

I don't know that we have paid trolls who work for an organization, I think DL has attracted the kind of person who sits online all day ranting and raving about stuff. The anti-trans troll attacks on DL are from people who have a personal vendetta, they will stalk you around DL, they have 100 sockpuppets, they try to get threads deleted and people banned.

A paid troll would be paid to post as many comments as possible all over the place and not waste time with the other stuff. Troll farms also wouldn't be paying these people to post for years on end, and these are often the same people we had posting 5, 6, 7 years ago, they use the same names and they have the same poor spelling, weird grammar and crazy punctuation that they've always had.

OP, I feel like you missed one very important point. We are gays. We shouldn’t have to or want to care about gender nonconforming youth. That’s not us. That’s not our problem.

[quote] These threads go round and round in circles and accomplish absolutely nothing.

[quote] But nobody changes their mind and no interesting insights or breakthroughs are made. Because this is fucking DL. It's exhausting and pointless.

[quote] Why does OP have to bring it up in our "hallowed halls" so we can once again debate it endlessly? As a topic of discussion HERE it is surely more exhausted

[quote] It's just an endless, pointless discussion where nobody changes their mind. It's practically a circle of Hell at this point.

[quote] But the people who set these threads up daily seem so intent on doing the same thing when they vent their frustrations over queer/trans/pronouns/whatever the latest grievance is to an audience that isn't really listening.

[quote] And does anyone seriously think the issue will be resolved on DL of all places? Barely anybody listens to anyone else on here.

[quote] Everything that has been expressed here has been expressed countless times before in previous threads. There is no value in any of this because this is literally the same discussion almost every single day.

[quote] But I am just so exhausted at seeing the debate rage endless on DL to absolutely no effect.

[quote] People need to recognize that this, and every previous and subsequent thread on the topic is utterly pointless. Nothing that you or anyone else says here will actually matter, because it's all been repeated countless times before and nobody's actually listening.

Utterly pointless. Doesn't matter. Nobody's actually listening. And yet here you are R181 R170 et al. Repetively posting the same "fucking pointless exhausting valueless" assertions, doing EXACTLY what you've repetitively accuse others of doing.

R181. I'm with you. I don't think it's a paid effort but it does seem a lot of DL needs to go out and get some fresh air. Or if the Sun is too painful, at least get off DL and talk to people who aren't invested in this kind of stuff.

It's creepy how invested some people are in this anti-trans nonsense, as if it's their entire identity and an absolute life-or-death situation. And the blatant manipulation of the discourse through F&Fs, W&Ws and the numerous threads would put a troll farm to shame.

Because to all the anti-trans people: we've all heard you're concerns before. You don't have to repeat them every minute of every day. We get it. You are heard. You are acknowledged.

But for some reason that isn't enough for these people.

R184, it's always the same. There's one trans loon who has decided that the TQ+ reigns supreme and questioning it is evil. If you put it on ignore it's so clear.

[quote] It's creepy how invested some people are in this anti-trans nonsense, as if it's their entire identity and an absolute life-or-death situation.

R185 What is "creepy" is the extraordinary effort by fascist thought monitors unashamedly dictating how/what others should think, post, and behave.

I think it would be cool to see a Quentin Tarantino style movie where the gays and lesbians take revenge on the trannies and start beating them to death.

Great, R184 has decided to turn up.

As if their posting history is the poster boy/girl for mental health.

It's creepy how invested some TRANS people are in this trans nonsense, as if it's their entire identity and an absolute life-or-death situation. (KIND OF IRONIC TO BE SAYING "ANTI-TRANS PEOPLE MAKE IT LIFE OR DEATH, AIN'T IT?)

Because to all the-TRANS people: we've all heard you're concerns before. You don't have to repeat them every minute of every day. We get it. You are heard. You are acknowledged.

But for some reason that isn't enough for these TRANS people.

You haven't heard them though.

Yes R190, that's creepy too.

Which is why I wish both groups would go away.

But why am I even bothering? Nobody's listening anyway.

Good luck all.

Exactly, r189, that poster at R184 is a good example of the kind of person who is emotionally invested in posting on DL, they were saying earlier that discussing this on Datalounge "IS doing something," as if a small forum whose posts often don't even show up in Google is at all relevant to the larger picture.

Their other posts are about hating Muslims and blacks, it seems, so that's not a surprise either.

What's creepy is wishing there was a movie about murdering trans people for revenge for ... something or other.

Let's not pretend like DL has a lot of trans posters. I doubt we have any. There are no threads or discussions about trans except these troll threads.

The trolls want you to think that the trans have invaded DL and that they're "just as bad" as the anti-trans trolls, but come on, you know that's not true.

[quote] As if their posting history is the poster boy/girl for mental health.

R189 R193 What you've done is called "shooting the messenger because you have no response to the message". The "look over there, not over here" deflection as mentioned by R180.

There's DL sarcasm, R194, and then there's what's actually released by the T's into the socio-cultural ether:

[quote]A new book called Manhunt by transgender author Gretchen Felker-Martin features J.K. Rowling, author of the popular Harry Potter series, as a principal villain. The novel is generating controversy for a scene in which Rowling is killed off during a fire at a Scottish castle.

"ALL THE TRANNIES GOT TOGETHER AND WROTE A BOOK ABOUT MURDERING JK ROWLING AND RELEASED IT INTO THE SOCIAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND THIS IS THE TRANNY AGENDA AND THIS IS WHY IT'S OKAY TO SAY WE SHOULD MURDER ALL TRANNIES"

R190 Because they're investing a ton of money in makeup and costuming, so they demand acknowledgment. I will not be ignored Dan.

R195 Trolls? You mean how dare you post something I disagree with.

Trans is legal, and highly encouraged for gay people, in Iran.

Homosexuality is punished by death.

Yet people in the West see the increasingly popular idea that gender non conforming gay and lesbian kids are actually the opposite sex, as progress.

An article like this can only get published because it supports the right's need for divide et impera. This is why people like Bill Maher and Andrew Sullivan have careers. They shade their opinions to suit the right's agenda or else they would not be given a platform.

[quote]AND THIS IS WHY IT'S OKAY TO SAY WE SHOULD MURDER ALL TRANNIES"

R198, the above 'quote' which you made up and attribute to me is entirely a figment of your imagination, much in the T-vein of claiming 'facts' that don't exist.

There is no such thing "transgender", "trans", "transitioning", "transition". You cannot demand from thinking rational human beings with a gram of common sense that they pander to, play along with or countenance the premise that putting on a dress immediately and irrevocably transforms/changes a man into a woman.

Men in dresses are not gay. They are not "transgender". They are not "trans". They are not"transitioning". They are not "queer". They are not "non-binary". And they most certainly are NOT women.

Men in dresses are MEN.

R201 Iranians love clowns and jesters, so it's encouraged for the entertainment value. They may not understand, since they're so desperate for attention, but they are being mocked- as they should be.

R205 Iranians love social order and submission. Forcing gay men to medically mutilate themselves to remove the homosexual blight reinforces their social order. A social "remedy" increasingly popular in the US.

Gay man: Gender ideology is homophobic because (well argued reasons).

Partisan, ideology-addled bot: BUT THE CONSERVATIVES!

Live and let live but don't dare try to tell me how to think or what words I can or can't use. Fuck off with that nonsense.

Jesus, fucking Christ.

This thread is less than 24 hours old and another stupid thread has popped up on DL about the exact same topic. Now watch as literally everything mentioned here is mentioned over there too.

And the cycle continues.

Thete's a constant churn of anti-trans posts here for sure. They just will not shut the fuck up.

[quote] They just will not shut the fuck up.

R210 This is an adult discussion board. Not an elementary school playground. Not a Muslim madrassah. Not a Cultural Revolution re-education camp. Not a gulag. Because of that, you have the freedom/option to ignore/scroll by any content you find objectionable. An option you may wish to entertain.

An then there's the hall monitors dreaming of an ideological gulag on a gay discussion board.

R212 Actually, it's derived from the insane gay penchant/support for Islam. Don't criticize. Don't question. Shut up. Submit. Silently.

R211 it's right-wing propaganda.

We know what RW propaganda is.

We also know what TQ+ propaganda is.

And I know bigots when I see them.

Anti-trans = pro-gay

Pro-trans = anti-gay

Only one of these belongs on DL.

And I know women when i see them, short hair and mastectomy scars or not.

It's not a matter of the existence of genuinely trans people.

It's the matter of 'queering" and T ideology with its assault on science, biological reality, common sense, and the English language.

R216 There's nothing "bigoted" about public dissent from the insulting, the dismissive, regressive, reactionary, and delusional.

However, the shrill demand for unquestioned obedience and submission as amply evidenced on this thread to politically-motivated diktats to approve/embrace delusional horseshit is of course quite another issue, reminiscent of fascist Germany (Hitler’s Big Lie), Soviet Russia, Maoist China and Islam.

[quote] passed the EQUALITY Act (not equalities) which simply adds trans people into current hate-crimes, and protected-class legislation

More TRA lies. Unless they did NOT substitute gender for sex - as the bill was written - then the bill most certainly sex and erases sex based rights and protections.

Always the same hypocritical bullshit from transphobes.

"Deflection, deflection, blah blah accusation of transphobia".

R222 Proud gay transphobe here. And fuck you.

It’s a sad world we’re living in today. People making up genders. Fat ugly women like Lizzo thinking the whole world wants to see them naked. 400 lb fatsos thinking they are beautiful. Trannies and “theys” invading gay spaces. Give me the 90s.

[quote]This is why people like Bill Maher and Andrew Sullivan have careers. They shade their opinions to suit the right's agenda or else they would not be given a platform.

If you can't criticize your own side without being labeled a defector, you may actually be in a cult.

R209/R210. Aren't you exhausted? Hall monitoring on DL pointless. Your shrieking isn't going to change anyone's mind. Quite the opposite.

r16 Yes, why won't anyone think about the women and the children?

r16 The children! The Children, oh why, oh why won't anyone save the children!

oh sorry r16, should have directed that to r65, and, oh, and the women... we must save them from themselves, too!

"Maude was trans and she threw the first brick in Prime Time TV"

R227 as long as there are bigots like you on DL I'll keep calling them out. Homophobes, transphobes, racists, and all the rest have no place here.

^Poor thing. You're holding up your hands to stop a tidal wave.

[quote] this is a discussion board for gay men. This is an issue directly affecting gay men and especially gay youth. So we're discussing it. If you don't want to discuss it, you can scroll on by....

then, why does so much come back to sociopolitical manipulation towards women and children? Also, why is the focus solely on trans women being described in ways that translate to homophobia and stereotypical rhetoric used to attack gay and bi males?

While I have no doubt there are a few gay/bi men that would discuss the issue as to the concerns of gay/bi men... I'm not seeing that so much as everything else and the kitchen sink being thrown at it.. and then reactive homophobia, threats and moral handwringing typical of the far right when confronted by opposing or even median views.

It seems it's more of a frau topic and they desperately want us to be invested while quietly suggesting we should fear their societal power as we're just a bunch of lowly faggots that could be taken out by feigned crybullying least we submit to their shrill screeches about drag queens - woman face - transwomen... I need to skim thru more to see if someone has pulled out the mother teresa, florence nightingale, routine of how saint of womanhood rescued us all during the aids crisis, how it was lesbians that carried gay men through the initial gay rights issue, how it was storme not slyvia that threw the first stone because she was without sin unlike those boys in speedos taking molly on a pride float.. etc, etc

[quote] Homophobes, transphobes, racists, and all the rest have no place here.

R232 Do you include fascist thought monitors among "all the rest"??

Gays are sandwiched between two fundamentalist cults that want to either use us or destroy us in their own power games. On one side, extreme Christianity, on the other gender-cultists.

Only in that you're describing yourself, R235, yes I do.

r236 not just the christians - the left has a habit of painting them as all white, southern and poor televangelical grifters. . . it also denies the many religions that take a progressive stance.

just as if we say gender-cultists, people tend to think trans whole - despite many old school trans disagreeing with the surounding craziness - but ask the hard questions regarding feminism holding the same rhetoric on abolishing gender and condemning masculinity to which gay men frequently become the prop, one which they attack from both sides that if we're masculine then we're homophobic nee misogynistics or if we're effeminate, we desire to appropriate from women because we're perverts.... screaming that homophobia doesn't exist because it's actually misogyny, and therefore women can't be homophobes.. and other regressive bs in the oppression olympics.

just raising a question to feminism is risking getting socially slaughtered.. like the lass above that no doubt would tell any man that he has no right to comment on abortion, telling us that abortion (should we support their position in totality) is a gay man's issue.

the ones screaming for safe spaces and segregation.. I find they don't want it for anyone else, especially males. They want you to advocate it for them but 90% lose their shit if you ask them to consider the same for anyone else. It frequently is met with hostility and homophobic insults. . . especially the more polite you are. Little is more triggering, earning you a block quicker than remaining cool, calm and polite... while just trying to understand their perspective.

responses to preserving men's spaces or specifically gay men spaces are met the same way... that there is no more dangerous of a place to women than where men are allowed to gather alone; from education to the gym, to even a gay bar.

So, much of it comes off as power consolidation to me... tyrannical groups that want to be free of consequences, believing that the thorny crown of oppression grants the rights to be an utter cunt to anyone and everyone. my game, my rules, fuck everybody else., oh, so empowering.

but I know that's not reflective of the whole... but online, it's all speaker's corner with maniac preachers on soap boxes. soap boxes, like the one I'm standing on. I recognize that. It's a wobbly one, too. On this kind of platform, cool, calm, polite doesn't get you anywhere... but shouting for reason, doesn't either. Thjere's no give or take to be had in extremism. It's you're with us or against us. . . and most people are unequipped to deal with extremism, so ostrich syndrome spreads because better, well, healthier, if it remains out of sight, out of mind. the more you tune out, turn off, the less pressing of a concern it is. . . like the legalities of jaywalking vs everyone that does

R237 I didn't post R232. YOU did.

They Gay Community really screwed the pooch with this one by aligning itself with a community with a similar struggle, yet definitively different. And unfortunately the difference is practically indistinguishable to most people outside of both communities, so they get lumped into being the same. And it doesn't help that both community's movements were born on the same day, same place - Stonewall.

And even on this board people are confused by the difference between transgender and transsexual. As I have been informed, they too are different movements but both obviously have more in common with each other than the gay community has with either trans movement.

The Transgender Movement has the whole alphabet soup pronoun debacle. And the Transsexual Movement is dealing with the fact that as science stands now, it is impossible to turn a male into a female and vice versa, no matter how many hormone blockers you take. So basically, the Transexual Movement just ends up reinforcing gender stereotypes (i.e. women must have breasts) that the Transgender Movement is seeking to erase.

In the end, it's a mess. And the side that is going to win out is the side with one cogent message that's easy to understand (The Right) - to the detriment of the advances the gay community has made over the last half a century.

r240 to that end, gay men have nothing in common with lesbians as long as they continue to maintain an active political wing that is worse than the religious reich, seeks to prevent or eliminate our families, re-criminalize male homosexuality and inherently believes that sexuality is a choice - a good choice for women, but morally and ethically wrong for men... only leading to the sexualization of women, the lesbian community and misogyny in general by their very existence.

people continue to minimize radical feminism.. . and in turn, those aspects which have become the norm in mainstream feminism but they revise the more controversial parts of figures that remain named, and those still living are still active in their pursuit against gay and bi men -- which to them, much like the religious right, is no different from trans.. the rhetoric used now is no different than the rhetoric they used then.

But bring this up for any basic inquiry and you'll be slandered. . . we're supposed to pretend they don't exist, they don't have power, they're just the fringe, yadda yadda yadda.,.. yet they're at the foundational root of queer studies programs. . .

so, if we're addressing the elephant in the room, why should I care about you or your issues rather my own specific community, if that?

fearmongering against your enemies isn't showing me what benefit I'm getting out of it.

and if you believe we hate you so much, then why do you want us, really?

am I really to be blamed for how you get it on with your girlfriend?

I've got shit to do. Y'all have fun with this ridiculousness.

far more nuttier women out there than trans loons.

r248 if you can't take the heat, get back in the kitchen.

R185, because it IS an identity for them. Go on any TERF/ "gender critical" right wing Twitter account/ or YouTube and that's basically all you'll ever see. They fixate on trans all day EVERYDAY. Occasionally they'll switch to attacking gay men, but their main obsession is trans. Every petty drama they get into with trans they immediately bring it over here, (see all the JK Rowling threads were TERFs are pretending she's some sort of oppressed victim or underdog.)

They're desperate, they've been trying to sow division between gays and LGBT for years now and it still hasn't worked. All this garbage about we're so divided when most gays and women support trans or don't really care how they live their lives. It's just them that have a problem.

[quote] this is a discussion board for gay men

No. No. No.

This is a discussion board for members of the Gay Community. For Homosexuals. For people who are same sex attracted.

Gay MEN and Gay WOMEN.

That, of course, doesn't mean that gay men and gay women may not disagree on some issues. Despite our commonality in same-sex attraction, we are different in other ways after all and can have different priorities.

I would have said before that the transgender movement and its attack on women - on ALL woman, see why it matters to Gay Women? - is existential to ALL women. But it became clear that in its present form and with its present agenda (not even hidden) it is an existential threat to ALL gays period.

Why the constant hyping of the ant-trans issue? To keep it an issue the Republicans can use for election.

[quote] US House hopeful Neil Kumar of Arkansas leaned into the nation’s culture wars hard on Thursday, seeding a fundraising appeal with homophobic attacks and apocalyptic imagery. The “LBGT Groomers Want Your Kids” email blast is straight from the MAGA culture wars playbook, portraying public schools as “psychological torture camps,” pedophilia as the greatest threat humanity has ever faced, and existing politicians as part of a systemic problem.

[quote] “Education has been replaced by the promotion of the depraved LGBT agenda, a Satanic attack on God and Nature,” Kumar wrote, adding that “sodomite predators are grooming, brainwashing, and mutilating our vulnerable children.” [bold] As for the term LGBT, which refers to lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender persons, Kumar wrote: “I call it LGBTP — the P is for pedophilia.” [/bold]

That is the kind of people the anti-trans troll is siding with and defending.

R249, Deaf people aren't murdered for being deaf, and they teach sign language at schools too, it's optional and so is the terminology trans use. Why was that so hard to understand for this lazy cunt? That wasn't the rebuttal he thought it was lol.

Quote from r253:

[quote] According to a screenshot obtained by the Michigan Advance, [bold] Barrett’s original fundraising appeal [/bold] came via text and appeared to be an appointment confirmation for “Your Child” to receive “Gender Reassignment Surgery Tomorrow at 9 AM.” It then asks, “If you would like to CANCEL this appointment because you do not believe in teaching young children about dangerous transgender ideologies, please sign your name NOW.”

Republicans using fearmongering to get money. As usual. It's all about the money.

What's ironic is the trans movement's emphasis that wanting to wear makeup and women's clothes means you're a woman. For the transwomen I know, this was the immediate adaptation of being a woman.

You'd have me more convinced if you remained a hairy burly male and said you were a woman. It's insultung to relegate being a woman to now wearing pumps instead of oxfords.

I think most DLers are "live your best life" advocates. But to imply appearance = gender seems antithetical to what the trans community is supposed to represent. If there's such fluidity, why do you have to make such a rigid -- and permanent -- change?

Agree, r251, but we do have a handful of rightwingers whose identity is more "own the libs" than specifically anti-trans. The guy who is going on about gulags in this thread is one of them. That dude will not shut up about re-education camps and gulags and the evil genocidal left. It's been years.

It is, at this point, a sickness. The anti-transers are the same as this guy but they just have a more specific field they focus on.

A lot of people get online and get obsessed with stuff. Unfortunately, a bunch of them end up here.

R255 isn't exactly the expert in analogy he thinks he is.

Do Deaf bully everyone at work or at educational institutions to use sign language?

r257, you're going to have to explain how you can be on an anti-trans troll thread like this and yet NOT know that all your anti-trans pals are constantly, repeatedly, and fervently complaining about transwomen who "don't even try to pass." It is a constant stream of "ugly balding hairy guy in a frock who thinks he's a woman" complaints on these threads, and now you're trying to say that it's more authentic for a trans to be a balding hairy guy in a frock?

Christ, I hate these threads, why do I even post on these stupid threads, everyone is an idiot and that includes ME for even BEING here.

The fact remains that the right wing is once again misappropriating minorities, like the trans and the lgbt community, to rile up their followers.

It's hilarious that the anti trans troll is raging about men who can't pass as women, and surely has no issue with himself and other men calling real women ugly for not being pretty enough for their standards. "Protecting women?", indeed.

sorry, Why the constant hyping of the anti-trans issue?

R195, I've only encountered one transsexual on DL and that was a few years ago. It's weird that this board is supposedly "swarming with trannies" yet they're nowhere to be seen. I don't get the impression that there are that many here on DL, maybe the odd one but they seem scarce.

There's that one trans who absolutely hated Greg and Defacto. I still laugh over how she claimed that Defacto was a secret trans himself and goes by 'Hot Girl Tamara' on other boards.

Haven't seen her around in awhile.

r252 both groups are a threat to gay men.

The so-called 'anti-trans' posts are posts against the dogma of gender ideology, and its disastrous consequences for gender NC youth, gays and lesbians, women's rights, and science.

The dogma seeks to eliminate sex as a basis of legal rights and replace it with "gender' as self-ID." Posters who call this critique "FAR RIGHT" are a-OK with this New Homophobia as the article accurately calls it.

Yawn, the liberals who support LGBTQ rights are the same ones who fought for gay marriage, gay adoption, and gays in the military

The conservatives who sneer at LGBTQ people are the ones who fought against gay rights every step of the way

again, who do I have more to fear from?

He's a gay conservative who would rather attack trans people instead of his fellow conservatives who are busy trying to ban gay-themed books from the library

r260, you miss the point entirely. The trans movement shouldn't be about gender reassignment surgery so you can appear like a male or a female. The point should be that some woman are born with penises and some men are born with vaginas. The idea of putting on any kind of women's clothes or even getting breast implants (passable or not) makes you somehow a woman is a fallacy. Females don't ACT like one thing just like Males don't act like one thing.

I am black and therefore I am black all day whether I wear a hoodie or a Brooks Brother's blazer. The trans movement is like white people who appropriate black culture and only dress one way, hood, because that is their understanding of what it means to be black and the only way people will perceive their style as black. So trans women for example have to wear lipstick just so everyone else will say - hey that's a lady, or at least a male who identifies as a woman. If the goal is to cancel gender, why do we seek to define it by what we wear, and what procedures we have done to our body?

A transsexual friend of mine actually went around asking to borrow tampons from other girls. She would carry one in her purse. I guess real women carry tampons too.

Just waiting for someone to explain away the homophobic parts of feminism to me....

the trans debate inevitably becoming centered on mtf and carrying as much homophobia directed towards them as coming from them...

why as a gay man

should I be invested in either side

when neither is particularly healthy?

so, I'm supposed to support the anti-trans movement allegedldy because of how it affects me... and the slippery slope arguments but I'm supposed to ignore those slippery slope arguments of how this would be utilized by the right or how it's deconstructed on the left to target me as well.

given the over the top screams of how evil the other side is, it rather feels akin to asking if I would prefer to be ruled over by hitler or mussolini.

There is no such thing as Chick with Dicks - Just Dudes with Tits

r275 Joan Rivers carried a tampon in purse until the day she died.

[quote] So trans women for example have to wear lipstick just so everyone else will say - hey that's a lady, or at least a male who identifies as a woman.

Clearly you've never met a trans woman.

R278 Joan Rivers was a legendary comdian.

And r278 there is a difference between a female who used to ovulate carrying a tampon in case a woman who still ovulates needs one when her period begins VS. someone carrying one as a prop to affect being a female.

r281 I knew you would go there.

She used it as a prop. . .

she said she would throw it out in front of an attractive guy and pretend to be embarassed.

Seriously, if you're going to be on the DL of all places, know the kind of community you're coming into.... that's in the 101 class. So, it's not selling you as having legit interest in the happenings of DL other than try to sell off your hate platform onto us.

Also, did T-Girl, not get she could find tampons anywhere/everywhere... health office, restrooms, whatever...

albeit, I'm sure some women reaching menopause, having had surgery, illness or other complications would be inclined to ask other women for a tampon, too, even if unnecessary, to reduce insecurities.. particularly those concerning the many women that no longer feel like women when they can't. so, sad T-girl, doesn't have a better friend.

but I would have been more impressed if she was asking for birth control.

r275 also, are you sure you're not white? you don't really seem to be blacking it up. You're not appropriating, are you?

[quote]Deaf people aren't murdered for being deaf,

Neither are trans, drama llama..

[quote]and they teach sign language at schools too, it's optional and so is the terminology trans use.

Optional? Oh my sides. People are getting fired from their jobs for not conforming to trans-speak gobbledygook. No one is forced to learn sign language or getting fired for not using it.

The difference between US conservative politicians and political parties and UK ones is very stark to me. Many of the policies supported by some US conservatives on gay rights, lgb education and surrogacy are minority fringe positions among UK conservative party. The UK conservative government is publishing a bill of legislation to update surrogacy laws in the autumn that will make it easier for gay men among other things. The opposite direction to US conservatives.

[quote]reinforcing gender stereotypes (i.e. women must have breasts)

I know what you're trying to say, and I agree with your post entirely, but...having breasts isn't a stereotype. It's part of human (both male and female) anatomy, lol. Probably should've gone with women must wear dresses.

That's all.

I have a feeling this T mess is going to push a lot of gays into a different kind of closet. That's my prediction for mid-terms. It's a trend that's been happening within the community for the past 5 years.

There are more than two options, guys. No idea why 3rd parties get ignored.

[quote] I would have said before that the transgender movement and its attack on women - on ALL woman, see why it matters to Gay Women? - is existential to ALL women. But it became clear that in its present form and with its present agenda (not even hidden) it is an existential threat to ALL gays period.

The only threat I see is the Republicans pushing against civil rights for minorities to rile up their right-wing followers to get their money and votes. See r253 and r254. It's a purely manipulative hype from right-wing shills.

And it's the Right Wing Republicans who push Don't Say Gay bills through legislation. There is no Trans Party in neither the House nor the Senate.

R289 I don’t know that gays would vote Republican en masse, but I can tell you for sure that there are a lot of gay Democrats out there, myself included, who despise the fact that we are being lumped in with the TQ+. They will, of course, never admit this publicly, but they do admit it in private behind closed doors.

Lol new homophobia just dropped

r290 America is more or less a two party democracy or political duopoly- in terms of representation anyway. So to say there is no trans party in Congress seems a bit illogical and a non point. There isn't a trans party but there is a party utilising and advocating sympathetically much of what the loudest trans rights advocates are pushing for.

I think that the Trans Ideology or movement, is not about protecting a small minority. The Trans ideology is infecting every level of life. They want to erase Cis-Gay men and take over all of the things we have done, This will hurt all Gay people.

It's hilarious to me - actual real trans people who live in America see themselves as a hated minority who face violence and discrimination practically everywhere they go (I believe them).

Trans-hating kooks on the DL (some of whom claim to be Democrats, or former Democrats) see them as an all-powerful Khmer Rouge type force, able to ruin lives and turn kids trans at the drop of a hat. They're lying. Or crazy. Or both!

[quote][R289] I don’t know that gays would vote Republican en masse,

Maybe not en masse, and maybe not completely. But perhaps on a more local government level. You may have "switchers" who are turning more purple (e.g. voting red blue in city, county, and/or certain state elections and voting blue other certain state and federal elections). The days of "true blue Democrats" are dwindling.

[quote]It's hilarious to me - actual real trans people who live in America see themselves as a hated minority who face violence and discrimination practically everywhere they go (I believe them). Trans-hating kooks on the DL (some of whom claim to be Democrats, or former Democrats) see them as an all-powerful Khmer Rouge type force, able to ruin lives and turn kids trans at the drop of a hat. They're lying. Or crazy. Or both!

The small percentage of trans people who genuinely experience gender dysphoria, trans people who believe dysphoria is required to be trans and detransitioners are definitely a hated minority - they are hated and silenced by the loud majority that is made up of non-dysphoric trans people. That loud majority also includes some of the most homophobic and racist people around.

[quote]the loud majority that is made up of non-dysphoric trans people

You're talking about maybe tens of people. Yes. What a powerful mob.

R259, The only place you were "bullied" was in your imagination. Go cry over a pronoun, Karen.

I don't have any respect for a gay person that would vote Republican

The transvestites have already pushed out the transsexuals to take over the trans movement, and now they have money and power to come for the rest of us. Jennifer Pritzker runs the LGBT movement now.

TRANS DISTRACTION POINTS:

"All women hate gays so you must hate them back" "The GOP wants to destroy you - our common enemy makes us the same" "Everyone who doesn't 100% agree with trans is a bigot" "Gay men love eating pussy - just try it" "Genital fetishism can be unlearned"

^^^

"YOU OWE US EVERYTHING SO SHUT UP AND BE FUCKING GRATEFUL"

[quote]The only threat I see is the Republicans

Pretty much sums up the trans "defense.".

I can't refute the criticisms based in logic, science or plurality of thought, so I'll obfuscate and distract. Bbbbutt, buttt the REpbulicans!!!

[quote]And it's the Right Wing Republicans who push Don't Say Gay bills through legislation

It's the radical-left and trannies who named it "Dont say Gay" when it clearly is states "Sexual Orientation AND Gender Identify" and was pushed BECAUSE of tranny overreach in FL (see the lawsuits against the schools for tranny grooming as exhibits A and B).

R267, There's is no "New Homophobia." We KNOW you support right wing homophobes because you bolstering them every chance you get and so much to they are even parroting your talking points now.

TERF ideology is dangerous and harmful, so far its impact has done more damage to women, gays, gender-conformity and lgbt youth. Women can't go to the bathroom without being harassed or accused of being men thanks to TERF ideology, everyone who doesn't look stereotypical is secretly a trans, lgbt are accused of being predators and groomers thanks to TERFs claiming everyone under the LGBT umbrella is a predator or groomer...etc, etc.

I think by now it's evident that your "concerns" are fictitious and totally reliant on hyperbole.

What a load of bullshit, R306.

R299, please go back and re-read R259 and the post he was referencing. The post @ R259 doesn't mean what you think it means. Your posting privileges have been revoked until you can show evidence of successfully completing an on-line remedial reading course. Please contact Muriel for further details.

Every terf is a homophobe and that's a fact. Just spend a few minutes on anyone of their social media accounts is all the evidence you need.

We are not obligated to support them nor should we.

r294 How will this hurt me as a gay man and of the prevailing homophobia represented within the anti-trans movement, what are you doing to combat that?

Ah yes, those transwomen are so demure and just like women.

r303 I rather feel like that is the mentality of the anti-trans side hiding under the guise of feminism and unable to address a single concern gay men have with their movement. This thread continues on and on with the same talking points but the default reaction to asking questions seems to be accusations that I must be trans.

So, my only option is to join blindly, unquestioningly agree with all your talking points and ignore any of the problems on your side or I'll face attacks?

So because some TERFS are homophobic man haters, we must support Transgenderism? How does that make sense?

r313 Why should I support either one when both are demanding my blind, unquestioning, allegiance and have active sociopolitical wings which are detrimental to my safety, wellbeing and general rights?

[quote]There's is no "New Homophobia." We KNOW you support right wing homophobes

Who are "We"?

What do 'We" call the gender dogma claims that you can change sex (not only gender), that gay men are 'gender fetishists" and "transphobes" for not fucking transmen, that you should not be attracted to sex but to 'gender as Self-ID"?

r313 Sell me on why I should support you. . .

ultimately, tell me, what's in it for me.

What do I really get out of it by supporting you?

Try not to deflect this time.

[quote]TERF ideology

Shut up. Just...shut the hell up.

TERF no longer means what it used to. All you have to do is look online to see that ANYBODY who questions even one iota of the tranny delusion now has' TERF' screeched at them. Prime evidence can be seen in this thread and the assertion that it is only women on here criticising TRAs.

Reality check: not everyone who is anti the TRA agenda is a woman or a right wing arsehole.

R295, "Trans-hating kooks on the DL (some of whom claim to be Democrats, or former Democrats) see them as an all-powerful Khmer Rouge type force, able to ruin lives and turn kids trans at the drop of a hat. They're lying. Or crazy. Or both!"

You conveniently overlook the fact that laws have been enacted allowing biological men access to women's safe spaces, and sports, and that children have been transed (given hormone blockers, had medical interventions) and rendered sterile, ignoring the fact that 85% of kids who feel like they're in the wrong body end up happily as adults, comfortable in their own bodies. That the very language is being changed to accommodate mentally ill people's delusions (i.e. "people who menstruate") says that the TRAs have a lot more power than just an infinitesimally small % of the population should have. I am a gay man who finds this all very disturbing,

r315 So, it's better that we're fetishists, perverts and misogynists, at blame for the sociopolitical divides in the lesbian community and feminism as a whole, when we do anything that your side takes offense to? Even down to how we have sex, in particular anal, is routinely debated as if it's a direct assault on women. And when so many of you are against gay adoption and surrogacy, can we trust you to actually protect our rights and interests?

And how do you justify the sheer amount of you that join far right circlejerks because they'll give you a platform to speak. How do you justify the by any means necessary approach? How does that benefit gay men?

r318 Do you confront those on your team that do? What are you doing to combat homophobia among those in the anti-trans movement?

[quote]Every terf is a homophobe and that's a fact.

Please define what you believe "homophobe" to be.

^^^ or really, "to mean" not "to be"

R310, You might get hit on by a trans on Grinder, apparently that's enough to destroy your entire identity as a gay man according to these people.

I suspect it's more the opposite, r323. Having a gay man (or woman) reject you based on your actual, as opposed to declared, gender is what is so identity-destroying to at least some Trans.

R318, Nope, it still means exactly what it means. Lots of people criticise certain aspects of trans community as well as trans themselves yet they're are not called TERFs. Only you, because you are a piece of shit bigot, and we know you are by the language you're using.

What is the term for Gay men or men in general who won't sleep with or are outspoken against sleeping with trans? I'm curious because the term TERF seems only to be for women when there are a hell of a lot more of men who are more apt to say they will not sleep with trans than there are women.

Oh, that's right. There isn't one. Because trans is about misogyny.

Hit the nail on the head, R326!

I think we’re reaching peak trans. The backlash is starting to grow. It will hit us, of course. But the gay community will rebound as our agenda for progress has always been through appealing to common ground between gays and straights, as well as trying to make people feel comfortable. Why the trans community decided to combat stereotypes that they’re unreasonable and deranged by acting unreasonable and deranged is their business.

History is not going to reflect well on these people. The transing of kids will be seen as akin to lobotomizing. The straight crossdressers who say homosexuality is a genital fetish will be seen for the homophobic rapists they are, and having much more in common ideologically with religious nuts who believe homosexuality is a choice than people in the community they pretend to belong.

Thank God for the internet though so that these people will forever have these epically bad takes attached to their names even after they become politically poisonous. Karma for fucked up conditional empathy.

R313, What do you mean, some? ALL of them are homophobes. It's about as stupid as asking Jews to support Nazis because some of them are supposedly on their side. Not buying it. Trans isn't a threat, nor is it going to destroy the gay community. The boring terf hysterics and fake news might do some damage though.

Maybe the solution is keep your autistic screeching at 4Chan/ Kiwifarms R326? That way no one will bother you.

Go suck a cunt, R325 - or are you a genital fetishist like the rest of us who won't.

Anyone complaining about misogyny on DL doesn't know its audience.

The right wing and its trolls and bots still think they can manipulate public opinion through social media. Even though, the public learned a lot about Russia's troll farms and fake Twitter and fake social media accounts.

All they have left is hoping repeating a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth for some, still works.

And that is all the anti-trans troll does. Repeat the same anti gay / anti trans rhetoric over and over again. Starting threads, inserting his anti-trans rhetoric in unrelated threads, etc. The same goes with the anti-woke and extremist liberal cancel culture. Hyping the issues, so the Republicans claim that these are real issues the voters care about.

JK Rowling retweeted the article. It should reach many, many more people now.

[quote] "I know that the only people who are supposed to like looking at pictures of boys are a subgroup of gay men," she wrote last year in London's Daily Telegraph. "Well, I'd like to reclaim for women the right to appreciate the short-lived beauty of boys, real boys, not simpering 30-year-olds with shaved chests."

r311 do you support Germaine's goal to abolish gay marriage? Or perhaps her penchant for pubescent young boys?

R316 Why would I ask for or need your support? I'm a Democrat, so I only need your support if you're Black.

Homophobic shitbag JK Rowling tweeted an article, stop the presses.

IF by both groups you mean TERFS and REPUBLICANS I agree R266

Who cares about JK Rowling? Bitch made herself irrelevant who is now only supported by right wing trolls and bots.

I suppose I'm a TERF but I don't hate men and I'm not homophobic towards gay men. I love them, actually. But I will not, under any circumstances suck a "lady dick" because ladies do not have dicks.

That's not what being a TERF is about R340, don't believe right wing propaganda.

And remember, most trans gals do not want their dicks sucked and in many cases not even touched, not by men and specially not by other women.

How about we read the rad fem bible together?

Feel free to quote your favorite passages.

Woke homophobia is rampant

and so is TRA racism

I love the fallacy that both right-wingers and transgender people are equally a menace to gay men, when only ONE of those groups want to ban gay teachers from schools, ban gay marriage and ban gay characters from tv shows and children's books...

Not to mention gay men aren't being ostracized and kicked out of their houses as teens by trans people

[quote]Having a gay man (or woman) reject you based on your actual, as opposed to declared, gender is what is so identity-destroying to at least some Trans.

Gay men's existence isn't in service to the Trans. This isn't the Handmaid's Tale.

[quote]I think we’re reaching peak trans. The backlash is starting to grow.

Headlines describing violent or threatening acts committed by "women" are increasing, people take notice when there's a picture of the accused.

Stories like this one are also increasing.

[quote]Teesside woman accused of exposing penis, using sex toy and masturbating in public

[quote]Teesside woman accused of exposing penis

At that point I'd like to ask the publication to define 'woman' and explain how does it differ from 'man'.

So in other words, none of you within the anti-trans movement are doing anything to combat homophobia within...

you'll claim you don't hate gay people but given the overwhelming evidence, it ends up sounding a lot like the crowd that says love the sinner not sin. . .

and when the great grandmother propoents of radical feminism specifically blame gay men, gay culture, gay history and gay politics, as the ultimate source of trans ideology...

how is it not a stepping stone to just attacking gay men outright?

R321, Calling gay people predators/groomers, specifically aimed towards gay men, accusing us of stealing women's wombs/enslaving women through (surrogacy) accusing us of "womanface" or being perverts/fetishists (drag queens/ genderbending/femme gays) accusing us of child abuse (for adopting,) accusing us of indoctrination/ideology for discussing our sexuality. Laughing about our brutal murders (JK Rowling.) Supporting Right wing/religious homophobes who are actively harming gay rights.... and so on. This is your typical TERF homophobe.

Foucault really foucked up society, didn't he? Along with that 11 yo boy in a Moroccan graveyard.

"Laughing about our brutal murders (JK Rowling)."

Please link to where she did this. That's a pretty big claim.

R343, Obnoxious trannies on Twitter don't count much, there are MAGAt gays just as stupid, these idiots aren't influencing laws to ban gay/ lgbt people.

Totally agree with R167. In no other situation are people allowed to self-identify except in the case of biological sex.

It's not acceptable for people to be trans racial, trans ethnic, trans age, trans species, etc.

In fairness r356, we are ALL trans age on this site.

r356 gay, lesbian, bi.. christian, buddhist, hindu. republican, democrat, smart, sexy, healthy at any size, autistic... do I really need to go on?

So, again, I'll ask

why should I as a gay man support the anti-trans movement

and

for those of you within the anti-trans movement, what are you doing to combat the homophobia within it?

R354, A gay man from the UK, Dr Gary Jenkins was brutally murdered in a homophobic attack, JK Rowling was tweeting about the police response reaching out to the local community where he was killed. She's was joking saying how "woke" it was, of course she quickly backtracked when people called her out on her bull claiming it was some sort of "typo."🙄 She's a POS through and through.

Gays aren't affected?

So gay kids aren't being transed just because of indoctrinated parents or homophobia in the family, social contagion (it's the new cool thing), social media brainwashing (the Twitter and Tumblr cesspools, now also Tiktok), what have you?

Healthy bodies aren't being mutilated by puberty blockers and surgery for no valid medical reason? Teenagers aren't being pushed to irreversible damage because of 'feelings' that may be normally outgrown in a few months or a year?

And if you think that's a one off example of her homophobia, well it's not. Also around the same time she was sending "big love" to a Catholic conservative homophobe Caroline Farrow who likes to call gay men f*ggots and has been harassing us for years, just recently she welcomed back a homophobic prick who said he'd prefer it if gay men had AIDS. There are countless other example of her homophobia too, but the overall point is she's a POS through and through.

r361 And, what are you doing about the wide spread homophobia within the anti-trans movement? How are you addressing those concerns?

This is a right-wing shitstain who won't admit that it's Republicans who are the biggest threat to the LGBT community

God this thread is full of trolls. I disappear for the day and come back to see yet another 100+ posts by the same screeching trolls and the poor people getting suckered into the argument by thinking they can change people's minds on this issue.

You can't change their minds because they aren't actually listening. They are either ideologues or disingenuous actors. Save yourselves.

And to those calling people "hall monitors": go fuck yourself.

Rolling is not homophobic. But I get that is the current narrative. She would not have made Dumbledore gay and stood against the backlash that followed when she outed him if that was the case. Sounds to me like she is tired of the trans army going after her for simply stating a fact that women menstruate. But go ahead and hate her as your slave masters are telling you to.

[quote]gay, lesbian, bi.. christian, buddhist, hindu. republican, democrat, smart, sexy, healthy at any size, autistic... do I really need to go on?

R358, you really can't be that stupid. You cannot self-identify as straight, gay or lesbian, healthy, autistic, or smart because those things are biologically determined, just like sex. You also cannot self-identify race, age, species, height, weight, natural eye color, natural hair color, etc.

No one has any problem with self-identifying as the other things you listed because those are not biologically or scientifically determined. Those things are all inherently self-identified characteristics. Your religion, political affiliation, etc. are choices you've made. There is nothing there but a choice. No facts. Nothing.

I saw an article about a transgender golfer recently who was complaining that "male-bodied" people shouldn't be allowed into female sports.

This transgender golfer claimed to have had the surgery so in his mind it was okay for him to be golfing with women.

Looked like a woman but the truth was revealed by the massive sense of male entitlement.

This transgender has been oppressing women with his presence for years. But now he wants to dictate what the rules should be for other men who want to do the same. Ironically, his voice will carry more weight because he's a male.

And this guy is portrayed as one of the "good" transgenders.

r369 Political Lesbianism says women can choose to be lesbian -- which many people believe. They may believe that some lesbians are born that way (though some terfs argue the born that way argument is exactly what allowed trans to claim that -- though they blame the born this way argument on gay men primarily and alone) but that other lesbians are created. There are also several mainstream public figures and celebrities that claim they've chosen to be lesbian.

And as far as autism, it has moved in popular culture than you can self diagnosis as autistic or virtually any mental health condition.... it's granted a pass on most university campuses and to an extent, in the mainstream. . . hence, the proliferation of trigger warnings. It's also quite easy for someone to go self diagnose a mental health condition and go their GP to prescribe something without ever being referred to a psychiatrist.

This article is more evidence that the liberal media is inching away from transgenderism.

Soon, we will be inundated with shocking tales told by detransitioners who will be heralded as brave truth-tellers.

Both of those things you tried to use to prove your little point are not choices only because some fringe morons think they are. Just like self-identifying your sex is not a choice because the fringe transtpo say it is.

Care to address the multitude of other things I mentioned? You know, the biological characteristics that are akin to sex in the fact that they are genetically based, immutable characteristics of being born human. Those little things.

r374 As soon as you address how you're combating the wide spread homophobia in the anti-trans movement.

By debating idiots like you, R375, and opening the eyes of people who've bought, even tangentially, into the bullshit the homophobic transtapo have been spewing. And, the best part, it's working.

Your turn.

(But, we all know you still won't answer because you can't without torpedoing your entire cause...)

There is no wide spread homophobia in the anti trans movement from homosexuals. The wide spread homophobia in the anti trans movement is from hets. Why not ask them that question, r375?

Jesus Christ.

r376 So, in other words, you're doing nothing and you assume my "cause" i.e. I must be trans or the transtapo - which you use in the way of a slur, to undermine me asking about issues and conflicts that concern gay men.

r377 So again, you do nothing because they'll give you a platform... no matter the cost it might have to other demographics you claim you want to protect.

so, I can only support your cause if I'm willing to be thrown under the bus at any given moment.. if it'll get you closer to reaching your goals of a trans-free world?

Agree with R377.

Also, why no discussion of the homophobia inherent in the trans movement?

Why do you assume all these straight guys like Bruce Jenner, Rachel "Richard" Levine, William "Lia" Thomas and so on are gay-friendly?

r359 Define anti trans. i support trans equality eg you cant be evicted by your landlord because you are trans, you cant be sacked because you are trans, you cant have your custom refused in a shop because you are trans etc

Anti trans is a hollow phrase increasingly parroted. Most gay men and lesbians would support what I have said in my above sentence. So what is anti trans?

I think there is deliberate conflation of and muddying the water of what anti trans means in order to shut down or restrict debate.

Affirming biological reality is not anti trans. Resisting silly ideas like advising maternity hospitals not to refer to people as mother as it might upset trans men is not anti trans.

r362 I think she won a courtcase based on one of the examples you are citing as being wrong and defamatory/ libellous .Just saying.

r379 Never said they were.

Seriously, the top figures, the defacto leaders and representatives of the anti-trans movement... are seriously problematic. For example, (only listing a few), such as Germaine Greer, Sheila Jeffreys, Phyllis Chesler.

I've asked several times about why should I support either when they're both detrimental to me. Y'all are engaging me. So, I'm interacting with you. If trans here want to engage me and answer my questions, then I'll present the same to them as well.

r380 It's for simple clarification... the same with the assumption of being pro-trans side. Do you have a preferred term for to distinguish the two groups? I'm guessing you don't have preferred pronouns, though, but maybe you do. Would you like me to use those as well?

Answer the questions, R378.

What is your definition of 'woman' and 'man'?

Why can you pretend to change sex but I can't pretend to change age, species, or race?

You certainly can't argue that your answers to the first question have implications for gay men. And, there's one more immutable characteristic that I could add to the second question...gay sexual orientation. If you believe that someone can change sex, then you also believe that someone can truly change their sexual orientation as well. So, here's a third question especially for you...

Do you believe that gay men can be changed into straight men?

(But, again, I know you won't answer.)

Right, r380. I support those same things you posted. What I don't support is medically transing of anyone under the age of 18, transwomen in women's spaces/sports, transmen in men's spaces or sports, the constant obsession with pronouns, the insistence that as a lesbian I should be attracted to transwomen otherwise I'm a TERF, and I do not support the idea that they are part of the LGB community. I feel the same way about the non binary folks or whatever it is that bisexuals are calling themselves these days.

But if I were to pass anyone harassing a trans person on the street, you better believe I will step in and protect them.

r383 Ah, so now I'm confronted with hostility to prove my purity. .I believe in the biological definitions.

So, do you have any other ways to combat the homophobia in the anti-trans movement (or you're preferred descriptor title of the group, whatever pronoun least offends you) than getting triggered and accusing me of being the transtapo and getting hostile because I'm concerned about the homophobia that's coming out of the movement?

[quote]And, what are you doing about the wide spread homophobia within the anti-trans movement?

There's no such thing as a single 'anti-trans movement' which I somehow should be responsible for in its totality.

If opposite sides (gays and rightwing homophobes) as well as the vast middle of the road masses share a subset of same arguments against the Trans/Gender ideology, it just goes to show that the ideology is on a very shaky ground.

There isn't an "anti-trans movement" to combat homophobia within. "Anti-trans" sentiment comes from all sides because everyone can see what bullshit it is except the extreme, hard core left. It's not just women and right wingers who are opposing this stuff, it's people from all walks of life. There's no "movement".

So, it's now my turn. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? What is a man? What is a woman? Do you have sex with people who have vaginas? If not, why not?

r387 still hostile, still running a purity test. . . are you active on twitter? May I have your account name? Can I see if you're calling out or promoting homophobes.

r386 but doesn't that go both ways?

Because what I see in this thread isn't that different than using the same fear based tactics used by the religious reich for decades... even down to oral sex analogies and pulling up fear based articles to prove a point. The tactics don't sit well with me.

I appreciate those here that are willng to discuss a middle ground... but it's difficult to see when so much of the discussion is reactionary and hostile. And feigns ignorance of what can easily be proven...

So, again, why should I support either of you?

organzied, unorganized, angry, festering mobs... whatever you want to call yourselves. Either way, I just end up attacked for being concerned about my greater safety, wellbeing and how all this in the bigger picture may impact my rights from either side.

R385, there is nothing hostile in R383 unless asking questions you can't answer is hostile. You wanted me to bring it around to addressing gay men's interest in the topic. I did that at R383.

But, you cannot answer those simple questions. You "believe in the biological definitions"? Expand on that to answer the simple questions. I already know you can't answer those questions without sinking every single transtapo position. The real question is why don't you know that? Why don't you understand that the entire transtapo movement is indefensible and 100% scientifically unsound?

The fact that you won't vehemently say that 'gay men cannot be turned into straight men' because it would then also mean that 'men cannot be turned into women' really says all we need to know about how homophobic the transtapo and their defenders truly are.

Interesting commentary from The Hill.

She believes the normalization of puberty blockers is physical abuse. Also that the connection that some teachers are making with dysphoric children looks like grooming.

The homophobes that are anti trans are the same homophobes they have always been. There is no new anti gay movement...it's the same one it's always been. Trans are not part of the LGB movement but we are told they are and the rest of the world believes they are, too. So of course someone who is a homophobe is going to be a transphobe too. These people have issues when it comes to anyone who is different and not part of the biblical narrative of how sex and sexuality should work. If the homophobia seems like it's increasing, the answer isn't that the gays are somehow responsible for stopping it. It never was our responsibility to stop homophobia as we are not the cause of it. Religion is responsible for the vast majority of it.

You can be against the trans movement and be gay because it is NOT the same thing at all. Gay men and women are not asking the rest of the world to participate in a giant game of pretend (although some homophobes would say we are). We weren't cutting off parts of our bodies to be gay and encouraging young people to follow suit. We aren't demanding that heterosexuals sleep with us and then turning around and calling them homophobes when they tell us they aren't interested.

Trans is something much deeper than homosexuality and in a way, it IS a mental health issue. It's not healthy to want to change the body to match the mind when it seems far less catastrophic to try to change the mind to match the body. Trans can also be interpreted as inherently homophobic because the people choosing to do this to themselves are usually self hating gay people or gay people who believe if they are attracted to a member of the same sex, they must therefore be the opposite sex. I feel sorry for most trans folk because there ARE a lot of them de-transitioning but for many, it's too late to reverse the damage that taking hormones or willful amputation will cause for them. And yes, some of these arguments were used for us gays...that it was a mental disorder, etc. But in the case of homosexuality, it is found everywhere in nature and has been proven that it isn't possible to change. There are no instances of trans in nature that I can think of. Would be interesting if there was though.

r389 And again, there goes the defamation and slander...

I'm one person, responding to multiple people, and all of them expecting me to answer immediately. . . lest I get labeled the transtapo.

so, okay, you win. You can say whatever you want. I must be all the things you believe me to be. All the words you put in my mouth. I must be unquestioning unless I am to be considered an infidel, a threat, a sexist, a homophobe, a tranny, a kiddy predator, whatever...

your side is the side of purity and light, all is perfect and well, all for the cause or all is a threat. I get it. you win all the internets. Congratz!

[quote]Seriously, the top figures, the defacto leaders and representatives of the anti-trans movement... are seriously problematic. For example, (only listing a few), such as Germaine Greer, Sheila Jeffreys, Phyllis Chesler.

There's no anti-trans movement. There's various oppositions to IDEOLOGY.

The opposition is because of the radical nature of the ideology and the radical consequences of its blanket acceptance and influence on legislation and public policy (re health, education, protected groups rights, etc.)

there is no religious right, there is no religious wrong, everything is splenda and sweet.

I’m a child of the 80s and recall how anti-gay religious organizations seemed to wield so much power. Now though they seem to have dissipated. I haven’t heard anything from Focus on the Family in years. My spouse and I watch 700 Club every once in a while and they had a story a few years bag about a pro-gay marriage group meeting up with an anti-gay marriage group. It wasn’t the same 700 Club of our youth. Anywho, I can’t help but think that gays are being played by the Left in general and “LGBT” fanatics in particular. Forever holding this threat of some homophobic conspiracy, waiting in the wings, over our heads. I don’t believe we have a mainstream organization speaking up for us anymore at all (in order to make the distinction between us and the trans). The closest we have is Log Cabin Republicans.

Anyone have any insight to the way we’re actually perceived by the general public that isn’t gaslighting or fear mongering.

R392, you do realize we all know what you are doing, right?

You can keep writing endless, ultimately meaningless, word salad paragraphs about everything OTHER than the very simple questions you've been asked but we all know exactly what you are doing.

You can keep playing the victim but we all know exactly what you are doing.

You can keep avoiding the simple questions but we all know what you are doing.

You literally cannot say what a woman or man is or that gay men cannot be turned straight. Both of those things have huge implications for gay rights and you can't answer them. Even more sad, I bet you could answer those questions easily 5 years ago before the brainwashing began. Think about that.

So R385, if a man can have a vagina and a woman can have a penis, can you please define for me what a homosexual is. Please refrain from being a transphobic, genital fetishist in your answer, because that would make you a terf.

Two hatreds that will never die: homophobia and anti-semitism. They just just change their skins but the actual hatreds remain unchanged. Note that both of these hatreds remain boiling hot on both the far right and the far left. Horseshoe theory is a reality. Both the far left and far right demand gay men fuck vagina.

Nonsense. It's from the right but it's never been real. It's just a fake issue the rich stoke to divide and rule. And the rich don't care because nobody ever holds them accountable for sexual misbehavvior.

Only in your warped imagination, R398.

I could post you a thousand examples of far left gender activists demanding gays and lesbians fuck the opposite sex because the transperson is the "same gender", but it won't change you mind that this is all in my "imagination".

Why? Because you're an ideologue.

R401. Look in the mirror. You're all ideologues who can't shut up.

And W&Wing yourself like that is so transparent. Nobody gets that many W&Ws this far down on a thread with this many posts. Look, I can do it too!

What a pointless sham this thread is.

Nonense, because there are NO "Far left" Gender activists.

New Homophobia is old homophobia, where the right-wing calls us pedophiles recruiting children.

There are no far left gender activists? Really?

Is this the same old game of saying 20th Century communism was actually really right wing and real communism has never been implemented?

R282 is proof that the English Language is escaping even the most common of people. It's like people have these ideas in their head that they are desperately trying to communicate. But then they stumble over the language in an attempt to express them.

R282 my main point was that Joan Rivers is a comedian. She is not a good example to use. And I don't hate trans people - sex or gender. I just don't think they are going about what they are really wanting to achieve the right way.

[quote]Also, did T-Girl, not get she could find tampons anywhere/everywhere... health office, restrooms, whatever...

And it's not like she NEEDED the tampon. She only wanted to join the sorority of woman ASKING for a tampon from a friend. It's like a boy asking a friend for a condom. He might not ever use it but wants to be seen asking for one to make it look like he is having sex.

I understand why a man wouldn't understand why a woman who no longer needs tampons would still carry one in her purse. Especially a mother. It's sorta like carrying a tissue even when you don't have a cold.

I kept tampons in my bathroom after I no longer needed them because I had younger friends and relatives who might.

This is not like a condom. It is basic hygiene. One can refrain from certain sexual activites if you find yourself without a condom. You can't easily avoid bleeding.

And, to the TRAs, no, a tampon is not a sex toy.

Somebody's really invested in pushing Ben Appel here. He's also the author of the OP article where the far right trolls are trying to validate the use of Quillette as a source.

^^^ Yes yes it's me BEN!! Can I join your club please?

R409, I started this thread. I didn't start that thread, though I did comment in it.

R408, that is what I mentioned in my previous message at R281 that R282 is was railing against. Please refer to R281 and you can see that I made that exact point. And guess what, I'm a MAN!

I'm surprised the backlash to this guy's article hasn't been stronger. But then he is a man.

Male prisoners are identifying as transgender for access to ‘easier’ women’s facility

Last year, The Dori Monson Show broke a story about a transgender inmate, born as a biological male, allegedly raping a developmentally-disabled woman while both were confined behind bars at the Washington State Corrections Center for Women (WCCW) in Gig Harbor.

Now, Dori and his listeners heard directly from a former state Department of Corrections guard that more than 150 biologically male inmates serving time in other all-male corrections facilities around Washington are lining up to transfer to Gig Harbor’s WCCW because it’s “significantly easier” to serve time with women.

“They are bringing biological males who claim to identify as females and putting them into the women’s prison,” former state DOC officer Scott Fleming confirmed to Dori Thursday. “All that they have to claim is that they identify as a female.”

No requirements for hormone treatment? No confirmation that inmate is in the transitioning process? No proof that gender or sexual reassignment surgery had occurred?

None, Fleming said.

“When I was there . . . all they had to do was claim they identified as females and convince a psychologist to sign off on it,” Fleming confirmed.

This is finally getting attention in mainstream news! Fucking finally! I have been saying for years how the trans movement is inherently homophobic since they want to change the meaning of sex and thereby same sex attraction. The truth is they want to erase gays. They're already saying that gays are genital fetishists and that gays are transphobic for not wanting to fuck a trans man with a vagina.

So, one SJWokester psychologist can put 150 possible rapists in with their prey and the prey (aka real women) just get to stay locked up with their predators. You want to know how much the SJWokesters care about real women? If an animal shelter was going to put cats and dogs into the same place, they'd be up in arms about it and protesting for those animals rights. The far right and the far left hate real women.

Yeah, I thought mynorthwest.com was super woke and would never touch a story about how trans policies have led to rapes of females. Wow.

Curious to see what other trans stories liberal media has been sitting on.

This is not going away.

Legal panel discusses LibsofTikTok and Florida law re teaching children about sex.

It's live now but you can start it from the start.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Another sad thing is that, back in the day when real journalism actually existed, those journalists would have been the first to get on these stories and try to get as close to the real truth as possible. Now, the "media" will be the last to swing. They will follow the crowd instead of reality. That was also the problem with the Trump-licking coverage. There is no new or journalism anymore, there's just entertainment.

Megyn Kelly points out how trans-inclusive sports policies encourages the use of puberty blockers on kids.

Banning boys from girl sports is the best thing for them. Bans mean there will be no extra pressure to put boys on genital-destroying drugs to make them eligible to play girl sports.

Schools shouldn't be encouraging homophobic parents in their delusion that they can turn their effeminate sons into girls.

R392 you seem like a wonderful man. I applaud you and your measured responses. You seem like a person I'd love to have a drink with.

I have a few questions for you and I'd be much obliged if you might answer:

1. Do you believe human sex characteristics are immutable? If no, then how aren't they?

2. Do you believe men can become women and women can become men?

3. Is the statement: "Transwomen are women" a literal truth to you?

Thank you in advance.

[Quote]Schools shouldn't be encouraging homophobic parents in their delusion that they can turn their effeminate sons into girls.

THIS. The gays who support trans people and trans rights don't realize how common this is. I have literally seen several videos of trans women themselves admitting their parents are homophobic and accept them more now as trans women. This is a real thing. It happens. Homophobic parents would rather have a trans daughter than an effeminate gay son. Many see transitioning as a solution, like transing the gay away. This is why we need to be adamant about banning puberty blockers and surgery for under 18s. Most of the gender dysphoric children grow out of their gender dysphoria anyway, and most turn out to be gay or lesbian. Transing these gay kids IS transing the gay away. It's homohobic and gross. Why not let kids be kids. Let them play and express themselves however they want. If a boy wants to wear a dress, grow his hair out... let him. If a girl wants to cut her hair and play with cars and wear pants, let her. These are gender stereotypes and gender expressions. It has NOTHING to do with sex. People cannot change sex. There is noting wrong with being gender noncomforming. We need to let people realize this, instead of pushing confused children into transitioning, making them sterile and on meds for the rest of their lives.

It's about superior vs. inferior. Conservatives can't have equality for any minority, because their whole selling point is that no matter who they are in real life (rich or poor, educated or uneducated, employed or unemployed, etc.), all Conservatives have the privilege to look down on minorities.

Conservatives don't care about protecting women or children, but they sure pretend to do so if it means they can pick on a minority.

Civil rights for minorities? Conservatives can't have that, because it could lead to equality. So they have to demonize those uppity minorities. The minorities being freaks, sexual deviants, perverts who prey on children, unreasonably greedy individuals who want something that isn't rightfully theirs, groups which don't know their place, giving them anything will cause the end of the world, etc.

[quote]The truth is they want to erase gays. They're already saying that gays are genital fetishists and that gays are transphobic for not wanting to fuck a trans man with a vagina.

They want to erase everybody, man.

This isn't just about gays. They're pushing their BS off onto straights, also. The biological males identifying as females to move to women's prisons and then raping the female inmates proves this shit. Don't try to minimize this as an attack on one group when it's abundantly clear that the Ts are after [bold]everyone[/bold]. They are a problem for everyone.

They want to erase gender and by extension sexual orientation in general, whether that's straight, gay, lesbian, they want to redefine sexual orientation. That affects everyone. When you try to separate it like this, you isolate others who are also affected and impede any progress toward mitigating the problem.

R426 and don't forget that the biggest target that transgenders focus on is kids.

[quote] one SJWokester psychologist can put 150 possible rapists in with their prey and the prey (aka real women) just get to stay locked up with their predators.

Name him and shame him. And we'll take a cue from the TRAs hating on women by showing up at his office & home with baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire.

TIA.

The male crossdresser at R427 is not a good actor. It's cringe-inducing to watch a straight guy fake empathy for girly boys and boyish girls.

[...]

The male at R427 is grooming kids and asking them to contact him.

Jessie Gender (formerly known as Lostrekkie) (Lost Trekkie, see the fantasy world aspect)

Jessie Earl, (born June 18, 1992 (1992-06-18) [age 29]) focusing on LGBTQ issues (especially the transgender community), women, nonbinary and autistic people as well as other social ... aka THE VULNERABLE and CONFUSED.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote] When you've got "mental health professionals" backing trans people, that's where this fucking nightmare started from! If you don't go after the corrupt and unethical "mental health professionals" who gave the greenlight for trans and trans ideology first and foremost, then you are fighting a losing battle.

Excellent points.

This is what Exulansic was doing on Youtube - she was especially highlighting the medical lies and deceptions being foisted on these confused adolescents. They went after her and got her Youtube account taken down. She's on Odyssey now and continues her campaign of truth there. Sadly she just won't get the exposure there as she would on Youtube.

They hated that she deconstructed scientifically and medically all their bullshit. And quite frankly their malpractice.

She was also examining and exposing those tiktok videos by groomers and others early on.

R368, She made Dumbledore gay when it was convenient for her. She didn't receive "backlash" because barely anyone cared at that point besides a few right wing losers. When she's shelling her franchise to homophobic countries like China she'll happily remove any mention of Dumbledore being gay because ALL she cares about is money and that's where her priorities lie.

Doesn't matter how many times or how many examples of JK Rowling's homophobia is pointed out because all these "just concerned" TERF trolls don't actually care about homophobia, they won't deviate from their anti-trans fixation no matter what you tell them. Nobody here is buying this TERF rot but they'll still continue to incessantly spam the board.

Lol, like clockwork, JK Rowling and the rest of the homophobic terf shitbags are now Tweeting the "new homophobia" article. A convenient distraction from her own OPEN admission to supporting far right homophobes.

R434, it's the woke studio, not JKR, that is shilling the gay-free content to China.

The Wachowskis are auctioning off a whole bunch of movie swag for a trans kids support fund

Trans Youth DEFENSE Fund?

Oh no now they're ARRESTING them for being trans. Will the horror never end?

No probs - we'll just do our time in a female prison where the chicks are.

"Don't pay attention to me being a homophobic piece of shit, trans are the real homophobes " — JK Rowling

It was no surprise to Anne* – or her husband, Tony – when their eldest son told them that he was a woman...

"Carly always identified more with the feminine. The Little Mermaid was the most watched movie in our house. Carly was always clutching a Barbie, and she liked to wear stockings on her head, so she could enjoy flowing 'locks of hair'," says Anne.

At age three, Anne's then-son asked his family to call him Rebecca (which, the mom admitted, was short-lived). When Carly was four, a preschool teacher called the couple and told them that their child persistently joined the "wrong line" when the kids queued up to wash hands, have lunch or nap. At age five, Carly said she wanted to be "Luke's girlfriend" when she grew up (Luke being the son of a family friend, who was a few years older).

Effeminate boys must be transed or it is literal murder. ^^^

THIS is the real homophobia. This is existential.

R437, Oh, fuck off with that " it's wokes fault" bullshit. It's her franchise, she's a billionaire, if she had any integrity she would have called it out or stopped them. But she didn't. She'd rather sit in her castles tweeting about her imaginary victimhood, while being a bigoted, greedy piece off shit.

R443, no, the franchise belongs to the Warner Bros. The wokesters there are the ones who made the decision to erase the gay from the movie. JKR had no say in it.

How have you missed all the new stories about woke Hollywood studios erasing gay content from various movies they want to show in China?

R433, another obnoxious terf homophobe got taken down, thank God!!

"I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth."

THIS.

R427, R431, And there it is, the dumb fuck right wing terf troll continues to expose itself. Didn't take long for it to start targeted gay and trans people with"Groomer".

Thanks for stopping by, shit for brains. Can you fuck off back to 4Chan now.

I think we will slowly see the Democrats pulling back from the tranny obsession. Peak trans is here. They pushed their bullshit too far. I only hope the backlash flattens their agenda for good.

How anyone can't see that "I want to marry Luke" being said by a little boy being interpreted as 'he's obviously a girl!' is completely homophobic and gay-erasing is ridiculous and ignorant. Oh, but he also like the Little Mermaid! Well, good thing no little gay boys ever liked the Little Mermaid movie. But, he pretended he had long hair! Well, at least he wasn't a little faggot and just wanted to be the princess trapped inside!

Fuck all the homophobic, gay-erasing, Rowling-hating, truth-hating, reality-hating pieces of shit pushing their transtapo bullshit on a gay board.

R448, we're already seeing the pull back.

The liberal media started pulling back several weeks ago so that they are in a position to act as a support system for when Democratic politicians also inevitably start to pull back.

Gender ideology is a cult in every way. That's not a cheap slogan, that's a hard factual reality.

I don't have an issue with Jessie Gender, seen some of her videos, and she seems like a genuine, insightful person. Never hateful or mean spirited. The fact that the creepy Terf trolls are now targeted her or any LGBT person for reaching out to LGBT kids, just shows what homophobic scumbags they really are.

R448, Just go suck on a tranny dick and get it out of your system.

R448, I fear you give the Dems too much credit. I think they will double down. They have just issued government approved guidelines form HHS - shades of Rachel Levine - advising that puberty blockers are reversible which is an utter lie.

They are captured and only a full scale Mossad-like rescue mission will liberate them. I'm afraid they may have to lose real big for it to sink in and then they will just blame something else.

R451 is a rabid homophobe.

[quote] Gender ideology is a cult in every way.

By that logic, gender assignment based on biology is a cult as well. "It's how we do things around here. Always have." "Traditional values" cult thinking. Values, people go to war for.

R451, sorry but no one who targets children and invites then to contact it is nice. Use your brain. What kind of adults do that?

R454, do shut up.

[quote] [R454], do shut up.

Did I offend the anti-trans troll? I'm heartbroken.

What the anti-trans troll and the right-wing willingly ignore is that children have to go through a period of social transitioning first where they have to come out as trans to their peers, change their pronouns and appearance and live their truth before there is even talk about hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery.

You would think that the right wing would be ok with that, assuming that children grow tired of the trans game lacking commitment at that age.

But no, something sinister is going on where children are being groomed by evil predators. And it's really just projection from the Christian right wing, pushing children into the arms of pedophile priests. Which is a necessary evil, from their point of view, to make these children true Christians.

R451, I've seen his videos and I get the exact opposite impression. He really doesn't seem sincere at all.

He looks like he gets off on performing victimhood.

I wasn't surprised when he mentioned he has yet to get the snip because his surgery appointments coincidentally keep getting cancelled for various reasons.

I guess his ego won't let him pretend to not have a dick.

No they don't, R 458. That is passe. You are really not up on these things at all.

R455, She was reaching out to LGBT kids who are dealing with rejection, or facing bigotry/harm from family members or the community they live in, you moron.

Gay people understand this because we have a long history where we've been through that ourselves. Elder gays looking out for young gays who are not safe and dealing with homophobia from their parents or religious community, of course you don't understand this because you're a piece of shit troll.

Orlando Sentinel:

Woke sports organizations are ignoring women's rights in transgender debate

R461, Jessie is not gay.

[quote] Social Transition

[quote] Children often start the transition process on their own by changing the way they present themselves. They may want to dress or wear their hair like the gender they identify with, maybe just at home at first. At some point, they may want you to call them by a different name and use different pronouns. With the right support, kids can work up to living full-time in the gender they identify with. These are all completely reversible steps, and they may be all that your child needs to feel comfortable.

Social transition puts mostly gay boys on the path to genital-destroying drugs and surgery.

Homophobic parents won't be receptive to these boys later coming out as gay males instead of fake girls.

Like Jazz Jennings, they will be stuck on the on the genital-destroying pathway. Jazz even mentioned during a hypnosis session that in a past life his family didn't accept he was a gay male. This was not long before Jazz's family signed off on having his penis and testicles removed.

This thread is hilarious. The right wing / Terf loon has lost it's mind. It's resorted to just posting Daily Mail articles and other conservative rags. Megan Kelley is your source now? LOL Keep going it's very entertaining.

How can boys socially detransition when their parents have communicated to them for their entire lives that can't accept them any other way?

Also the one note repetitious phrases "SJW" "Wokster" "Liberal" " Woke" "agenda" ... etc, since you love these words so much get it tattooed across your forehead that way we'll never forget it.

Pretty accurate

[quote][R409], I started this thread. I didn't start that thread, though I did comment in it.—OP

I wasn't talking about the authors of the threads, R411, but the author of the articles that both OPs link - Ben Appel.

BTW, there's such a thing as socks. Just because two different user accounts are used doesn't mean it's not the same person behind both. Both threads are trying to sell Ben Appel, who is an anti-trans ideologue.

It's all paid for by the right, as BLM turned out to be also. You people are such suckers.

BLM was paid for by the right?

Amazon, Apple, and other corporations, all of them anti-labor, anti-middle class, anti-left

R473 Posting to agenda. Corporations across the political specturm donated to BLM, including:

A16z

Bumble

Cisco

DocuSign

DoorDash

Eaze

Etsy

Grindr

Grubhub

IBM

Matchstick Ventures

Microsoft

Niantic

Peloton

Reddit

Shopify

Snap

Uber

Techtonic

Comcast

Slack

SoftBank

PayPal

I hope they feel good about paying for that Beverley Hills mansion.

R429. Try reading the comments if you can stomach it. They are sickening. All the praise and support for teenagers who have started estrogen.

R451 conveniently ignores all the cheers of praise that "trans groomer" Jessie, a cross dressing man, offers to children who have started taking female hormones.

r476 r477

Jessie Gender is bisexual.

R477, "scary comments" LOL. Of course, that is scary to a dumbass homophobe like you. Everything seems to scare you.

^Children being encouraged to slice off healthy body parts and take dangerous hormones IS scary. You're deranged if you can't understand that.

This has been trending almost all day.

This is Lesbian Visibility Week and black lesbian gay rights activist barrister, Alison Bailey, started her tribunal today - she is suing Stonewall UK.

One of the pre-hearing issues they had to resolve was could her opponents call her a cis-woman? She won that.

[quote]R472: BLM was paid for by the right?

BLM is frequently impersonated online by the right, especially on Twitter.

So inspiring @ R481.

Social media makes it fairly easy to pretend to be something that you are not ... and then make a total ass of yourself. Like pretending to be trans or black (or both) and then making unreasonable demands.

[...]

An update to the story at R420.

I would have put it into the "Lady gets another lady pregnant in a New Jersey prison" thread but Muriel deleted it for some reason.

Transgender woman who impregnated 2 inmates removed from N.J.’s female prison

Demi Minor, 27, was transferred to Garden State Youth Correctional Facility, a prison for young adult offenders in Burlington County, last month, Dan Sperrazza, a Department of Corrections spokesman, said.

He said the DOC moved Minor to the vulnerable unit at the facility and that she is currently the only woman prisoner on the site. Sperrazza said he could not comment on the DOC’s specific housing actions in Minor’s case because of policies around privacy.

According to the corrections department, Minor is serving a 30-year sentence for manslaughter and is eligible for parole in 2037...

But a July 5 post on Minor’s website claims corrections officers forcibly removed her from Edna Mahan and beat her during the transfer to Garden State Youth Correctional facility.

The DOC said it couldn’t comment on the allegations but is investigating.

(Prisoner's have websites??)

I do believe "Demi" may have missed his true calling as a soap opera writer.

Justice4Demi:

Being Forced to Live in a Male Prison

On June 24, 2022 I was shipped to Garden State Youth Correctional Facility (male facility), due to the fact that I had hung myself in the van, I was placed on Sui-cide watch, prior to going to this darkly lot cell, I attempt to ask Officers if I could be strip searched by a female officer which I felt comfortable doing …The Lieutenant refused and mocked me as I asked for this, he said if I did not follow his commands to allow two male officers to strip search me he was going to cut all my clothes off of me and place me in a dry cell. I cried and complied with his commands as the male officer said things to me that I perceived as wrong...

Subsequently I was transferred to New Jersey State Prison, where guards continued to call me he and him….I was called he and him well over 30 times, this has not happened to me in years being referred to primarily as a man. When I arrived at Trenton state prison several guards strip searched me and placed me in the infirmary on constant watch. While on constant watch I was off camera where a guard told me “I don’t give a fuck what you do ….there is no camera here..” “everyone here is man including you”. ..

On Saturday I was in medication line when a inmate cut in front of me, and said “I am not standing behind no fag” “the inmate than spit directly in my direction”, I came back and washed my clothing’s knowing deep down, that I can not and will not live like this!! I don’t think DOC realizes the psychological damage that has been done from moving me out of a womens prison to a male facility, its harsh and, I don’t know what its like to live as a man, and In refuse to ever revert back to such habits or behavior...

The fact that this prison does not have air, does not have cable does not allow video visits does not have and LGBT groups is mind blowing...

Mentally I have not been myself and I am losing my essence. The Demi, who wants to wear make-up and hangout with her friends is not permitted here. They have said that I can have my make-up but the truth is we know its a death wish, its literally going to cause more harassment. I have accepted that I am in a male facility but I have not accepted nor will I ever agree to or accept that I am anything other than a woman who happens to be transgender...

Video of Demi talking at the link.

We received this video from Demi on July 24th. The day prior, after finishing her stint in the Orwellian-named restorative housing unit (RHU – a euphemism for solitary confinement), she was transferred to the unit in the video. This unit, formerly the reception unit, was emptied of inmates and turned into a segregated housing unit for transfemme inmates in direct violation of PREA.

Later that day, Demi was forcibly taken into a transport van where she was beaten by a gang of correctional officers before being taken to Garden State Youth Correctional Facility, then New Jersey State Prison, then a few days later Garden State again.

Demi now faces a choice between putting herself in the mind numbing loneliness of solitary confinement or the constant homophobic and transphobic harassment and assault of general population.

Justice 4 Demi Statement on Pregnancies at Edna Mahan

Justice 4 Demi is a juvenile justice and LGBTQ rights organization founded by Demi Minor, a trans inmate currently housed at Edna Mahan Correctional Facility.

Demi is currently serving a 30 year sentence with a mandatory minimum of 25 for manslaughter from when she was 16 years old. During her time in prison, Demi has learned the law and become an advocate for other inmates facing injustices inside, injustices she often faces herself.

Demi was surprise transferred to Edna Mahan in 2020 while earnestly requesting hormones and gender affirming items, things supply chains didn’t exist for in a men’s prison...

Demi alone was given a notice for a hearing for interstate transfer on the pretext that she is a security threat. Depending on her placement, this could mean loss of her access to hormones, gender affirming items, gender appropriate housing, and surgery...

Justice 4 Demi calls on all officials to stand up for equality. These women engaged in the same acts and ought to receive the same penalty, not just as each other but as other inmates who have faced the same charges. Transgender sexuality is not a security threat.

From the video at R487, Demi doesn't sound or look like he has ever taken any female hormones.

A man with mental problems. I hope HE gets help.

Does Demi address why he impregnated other inmates?

i didnt kno my clit cud do dat!

Love this. Thanks, OP!