Family of hikers mysteriously found dead on California forest trail, Part 2

How ironic if the whole reason of the hike was to try out the new baby carrier they'd just gotten and posted a photo of. "We'll just go on a short lilttle hike down to the river. . . "

Does anyone have a link to the post about the baby carrier?

Tragic, very cute kid and dog.

In Part Two I will repeat what I believe happened. The dog became distressed with heat stroke. Panic stricken, they carried the dog to the river to immerse him in it and cool him down. They both went in the water to carry the dog. They became contaminate with algae bloom. They died of that then the untended baby cooked to death.

They were found some distance from the river but your theory is possible if they had time to hike back up a bit.

Then they all cooked to death. From the inside per the link at the end of the first thread.

Horrifying and in such grim terrain.

I'll just leave this here, the dad did it.

[quote]Make sure you have plenty of water for both you and your dog, and don’t count on found water.

Bringing over from the other thread

Horrifying. Terrible way to go.

Heatstroke has already been ruled out from the early pathology report. I don't know why people keep opining on this.

Move it along, toots, and talk about something else.

Especially for the baby trapped in a nylon carrier and a very furry dog, R8. Some reports have temps up to 109 in the area that afternoon. No shade due to fires several years ago. There is a google earth link in the other thread, gives some sense of what 1400 feet of elevation change is like. To have the steep uphill at the end...the switchbacks were completely exposed to the baking sun.

Could there have been a sudden change in air pressure?

The "it can't be heat stroke" trolls were big on the Kreycik threads, then it was.

Put 2 adults a baby and a dog in 109 degree heat with inadequate water and full sun exposure, plus steep trails with 1400 foot change in elevation, leave in that environment for 48 hours and see how most would fare. The link and numerous deaths due to heat this summer suggests, not well.

[quote] Kristie L. Ebi, PhD, a professor in the Center for Health and the Global Environment at the University of Washington, has been studying the effects of heat and other climate-sensitive conditions on health for over 20 years. She stresses that it’s not just the recorded temperatures, but the prolonged exposure that kills. If you never get a chance to bring down that core body temperature, if your internal temperatures stay above the range where your cells and your organs can work well for a long time, that’s when you can have the most dangerous effects of heat.

LiveScience weighs in. Here's what one professor says re: algal blooms:

[quote] Indeed, Alan Wilson, a professor at the School of Fisheries, Aquaculture and Aquatic Sciences at Auburn University in Alabama, said that it's unusual for people to die from algal blooms. "There are reports, but they're usually kind of anecdotal reports," Wilson told Live Science. "I get more people calling me this time of year normally for pet or livestock deaths."

[quote] Dogs tend to be more susceptible to the algal toxins, in part because they get into the water and then get out and lick their fur, potentially ingesting a high dose of toxins, he said. "Human exposure when swimming is fairly low, we don't ingest tons of water."

Probably heat stroke

Fucking irresponsible.

[quote] This process is referred to as heatstroke. In essence, we melt from the inside.

[quote] At a certain point, this cascade can’t be reversed. Just like when you cool a melting block of ice, the parts that have melted will not go back to their original shape. It’s a similar process in our bodies, so delays in cooling and treatment can lead to death rates as high as 80%.

[quote] On the outside, we see people who look confused and disoriented, with hot skin and rapid breathing, and they may eventually become unconscious. Core body temperatures over 105F clinch the diagnosis, but at the first sign of feeling unwell, cooling should be started.

[quote] There is no fancier or more effective treatment than that: Cool right away. In emergency rooms in Washington state, doctors used body bags filled with ice and water to cool victims of the heat wave in late June.

With air temps of 109 reported, deep in the canyon it could have had a higher "feels like" temp.

Shame none of their staff called police early on Monday.

A delay in cooling can lead to death rates as high as 80%.

Here there was no cooling, just full exposure to the sun.

Think of having trouble moving or thinking due to electrolytes becoming off. Then you have to go up the equivalent of 140 flights of stairs in order to get help. And as time goes on, the emergency gets worse and there is not even any shade. They were not found because locals do not go on that trail in August, only in spring and fall. Very sad.

Nature is formidable, it is not just a backdrop for your Insta shots. Like the runner, they seem like nice people. Shame. We all make mistakes. With heat, there is very little margin for error. The video with the dog getting heatstroke in Part 1 was striking, it was not exercising, was in shade and was so hard to overcome even with immediate intervention.

If there are any survivor watchers. One season they did a challenge out in the hot sun and a number of the participants were overheated. One of them lost consciousness and had to be emergency evacuated. And that was with access to water.

Caleb said that was the hardest thing he’d ever experienced other than fending off Frankie Grande.

I remember that, R19. I wasn't a Caleb fan but that was scary.

[quote]Yes, and what kind of pleasure is there in hiking under those circumstances? Why the FUCK would anyone want to, let alone with a baby -- and a dog?

Hell if I know. A British friend's elderly dad came to Las Vegas on a visit a few years back and wanted to hike in the surrounding desert. I get the impression that people from Great Britain have zero experience with high temperatures and the effects of punishing sun in general, though you'd think having traveled to Mongolia might have been an eye-opener in this case.

This is for the airborne algae toxin troll:

You cited an article in which dozens of people were given dialysis with tainted water! Of course they all died: they had toxins pumped into their organs…

Oy.

Somebody keeps bleating that it's been proven not to be heat stroke, but I haven't read that in any article. Does anybody know what he's blathering about?

How toxic is algae if it’s only on your skin? Assuming you don’t ingest any tainted water, are we talking certain death or paralysis within minutes, hours?

None of this would have happened if they just sat at home eating nachos and watching Netflix like 99% of Americans. Computer nerds and their Asian wives always have something to prove: look how tough we are, how rich we are, how cool we are (no pun intended). Fuckerberg does a lot of outdoorsy, water sport shit and loves to post about. We get it, you’re rich, but are you wearing a high index SPF, fool?

R10 Yes a very furry dog that got dragged to a fucking hiking trail in 100+ degree heat. Plus dogs don’t perspire, their only way to dissipate heat is by panting.

only mad dogs and Englishmen sit out in the noon-day sun

How much water did the Camelbak hold?

R24, it’s in the first thread but the gist is, there are at least three physical indications due to heat stroke that would be very obvious in an autopsy. They’ve been autopsied and authorities did not announce this as a cause of death.

Is there a reason that the police would withhold the cause of death if they knew it? Needing to notify next of kin or something like that?

Maybe they were scouting locations for a gig. One of them DJ'd in Mongolia once, you know. They went to Burning Man. Maybe this is all publicity for a new event - Burning Family!

A common camelback size is 100 oz, we don't know which pack they were using. The woman was fairly petite. That would weigh around 8 lbs when full. The guy had the baby in a backpack. Some put packs on dogs but they did not appear to do so in any photos. LE only mentioned one container of water with a small amount left. So, most likely they had 100 oz for the 4 of them, just under 3 liters. A good rule of thumb is 4 cups per hour per adult in very hot conditions, plus they had the baby and dog, so the water would not last long. A lot of people filter from a water source on the trail since water is heavy to carry. That is not safe when there is an algae bloom.

At the point where heat exhaustion is becoming heat stroke water is not the issue, cooling the core temp before brain damage, organ damage and death is the issue. As many have said, packing in ice and air conditioning and immediate medical attention may or may not save a life at that point. As the day went on the temp in the canyon would rise, as it did on the ridge where the trail runner died. The body just can't withstand it when cooling mechanisms are insufficient. And this poor family may have been on the trail for 48 hours before they were found dead. Staying on trail is a good safety practice but no one else was using that trail in the heat.

The instagram bragging rights...not saying the parents did this hike for that, but people die doing the dumbest things just to post some photos. The more outrageous and risky, the better. The narcissism is too much.

Some people are neurotic about being “healthy” and don’t understand the difference between a reasonable hike (healthy) and getting your insides cooked or pushing your body too hard (it would have been a lot healthier to sit on the couch and watch tv).

The cause of death on the dog will likely be determined first.

I can't imagine this is one of those wipe out the family scenarios on a public trail in a park. Seems a more secluded location is typical in those cases.

Just a regular outing that turned tragic.

I think their desert experiences were planned packages, I would include Burning Man in that category. Others were bringing in the water and supplies.

British people are not good at judging heat risks, nor are those from East Coast or NE, see dead trail runner.

What I don't understand is, even with several of these stories receiving major international coverage this summer, why did it not penetrate into their "maybe it could happen to US mindset"? How did the trail runner go from concern about the heat on Friday to seeming to discount it to the point of running 6 min miles and carrying no water? Cooking from the inside does not sound like a pleasant way to go. What are the thinking errors that lead even those tied into outdoor communities, running clubs, etc, not completely clueless one off types, why do even THEY seem to have no fear of heat or rugged terrain?

It came to light in the last thread that the husband was a Brit.

Please keep this in mind when expressing sympathies.

.....

R29, I'm not the person who starts posts with "Because I'm a doctor..." and I'm not going to waste my time debating semi-literate self-proclaimed experts, but I'm going to say this: evidence of heat stroke at autopsy is largely dependent on the length of time the decedent survived after onset.

In the original thread, I posted some good-yet-still-nonspecific signs one might expect to see in young, healthy people with no preexisting renal, hepatic, or circulatory issues — those, too, become more apparent with prolonged survival. In many cases, a determination of heat stroke is based on everything else having being ruled out.

There's no use in speculating, and even less in trying to impress anonymous Dataloungers by making haughty pronouncements. Heat stroke, algae bloom, rapture, bobcat sucked out their breath; who knows? Stanislaus County will do its job, and Mariposa will make the announcement when the time comes.

Between this and the lesbian honeymoon camping murders, it is a bad time to go out into the outdoors.

Also, Covid.

R39, hiking and camping are probably some of the best ways to socially distance and get exercise/peace during covid. But yeah, not in triple-digit weather.

It is HOT as hell in most of the U.S. in August. I feel guilty staying inside so much, but it's miserable out. The idea of hiking in this heat with a young child just doesn't compute for me. I am in-shape and in my 30s and feel gross after taking my trash cans to the curb after like four minutes.

What camping murders, R39? Think I missed that one. Sounds horrible.

The fact that not one single other person was on that trail in 48 hours speaks to what a bad idea it was to be there.

R42-

Thanks, R44. Good Lord, those poor women!

Hey R38 You are rather pompous old chap and you are not the only doctor on this thread.

What was on their iPod?

R38. Thank you, House. R43 Exactly.

R38 & R46 Hey, docs, please stick around and help us stay rational and science-based while we wait for the toxicology results. I feel this whole tragedy could have been avoided. The Forest Service needs to step up its game and post more warnings for inexperienced hikers.

Don't be spooked, just avoid hiking in extreme temps esp with big changes in elevation. If the recommended amount of water due to trail and temp is prohibitively heavy to carry, save that hike for spring or fall. There were comments on all trails about the heat in that canyon BEFORE the fires burned down the tree cover and the need to carry a LOT of water. Both adults had AllTrails accounts.

It is a bit like the dead trail runner, both he and they saw nature as an experience to fit into a busy schedule with location chosen for convenience not vetted for appropriateness and safety at any given time. Not something to respect that can kill you. Just a brand you can drop by and access and link to on social media via running apps or Instagram. There have to be healthier ways to indulge a yen for risk taking. The runner did risky things trail running with his kid in a stroller, at least he only killed himself. This couple had previously had a close call due to poor planning and preparation when hiking at altitude.

At no time is 1400 feet change in elevation an appropriate hike for that dog or for a 1 year old. The trail in was extremely steep, they had to be aware they were going to have to go back up it, so steep there were switchbacks so it was even possible to hike it. Personal locator beacons and sat phones get discussed a lot among hikers, at least the more safety conscious ones. That LE could not even get a sat connection where they were found it was so down in the canyon is striking. They had to hike out a distance to use their own sat phones. This was really rugged terrain and they were at the BOTTOM in extremely hot weather. This was not a pleasant stroll in nature, the park is so grim and baked after the fire and with the drought. And, as I said on the prior thread, no one found them for 48 hours in the middle of the trail because locals use that trail in spring and fall. Not one other person went out there in triple digit temps.

Really tragic. All the groovy lifestyle, money, friends, adventures, career success and education she was pursuing (to become a family counselor of all things!) and for want of basic common sense 4 lives were snuffed out in a really horrible and gruesome way. Cooking from the inside out.

Maybe they were bit by a band of snakes.

What kept you R47?

What would be the more pleasant death-to die from heat or from the cold? I've always heard the cold was better, that you just drift off to sleep. But it sounds like the heat makes you so delirious you don't know what is happening, and that seems not too unpleasant to me.

[quote] What would be the more pleasant death-to die from heat or from the cold?

Dying from the cold in the Sierras is also quite terrible and makes you do dreadful things!

My friend's dad always says that when he gets old enough, he is going outside in the cold and will just go to sleep and die. That always sounded pretty cool of a way to go, except that you might start to feel too cold and run inside. I think the upside to the heat is that once your insides start cooking, it's too late to back out, seems like a more foolproof plan to me. With the cold, you can lose limbs but still be alive, which would be pretty awful if you were set on suicide.

These temps were measured 2 miles from the trail that day. Over 90 at 9 and 99 at 10? With an infant and dog? Wearing a backpack? Had to be miserable from the time they got out of the truck.

08/15/2021 06:00 73 DEG F 08/15/2021 07:00 77 DEG F 08/15/2021 08:00 85 DEG F 08/15/2021 09:00 92 DEG F 08/15/2021 10:00 99 DEG F 08/15/2021 11:00 103 DEG F 08/15/2021 12:00 107 DEG F 08/15/2021 13:00 108 DEG F 08/15/2021 14:00 109 DEG F 08/15/2021 15:00 107 DEG F 08/15/2021 16:00 105 DEG F 08/15/2021 17:00 101 DEG F

Not only was going a really bad idea, but why not turn around? They could almost walk to the trailhead, it's not like they couldn't do the trail again another day. What is the thinking?

Everyone knows if you go down the very steep trail you are going to have to go back up it when you have a lot less energy. One packing the baby and perhaps someone carrying the dog if it was in trouble.

Even before they were in dire straits none of it could have been enjoyable. They could have set up a wading pool for the baby and dog and called it a day.

Did they not bring a phone like the Kreycik fellow?

[Quote] Not only was going a really bad idea, but why not turn around? They could almost walk to the trailhead, it's not like they couldn't do the trail again another day. What is the thinking?

"Don't be a quitter."

R58, they both had cells, there was no coverage. LE could not even get a sat phone signal where they were found, they had to hike up to connect. Which says something about the terrain and how deep in the canyon they were.

I have sympathy for these two despite their stupid decisions. Everybody makes mistakes. Lord knows I've done some things that could have turned out very badly. I think the impulse to condemn and judge like many posters on this thread are doing comes from the mistaken belief that we can control our own fate. We can't.

True, R61. But, we can try to learn from the mistakes of others. When we do risky things we up the chances of a bad outcome.

No one else was on that trail for 48 hours b/c of the heat and locals using it in spring and fall, not August.

This case is particularly hard because the baby and dog had no say.

I think the baby put them up to it.

I thought this was kind of interesting. While dried algae blooms can release toxins into the air:

[quote]Conducted a study of recreational exposure to cyanobacterial toxins in two lakes in Northern California with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. We found some evidence that dried algal mats can produce measurable toxin in the air.

There are no known human fatalities associated with airborne algal toxins. Likewise, there are no known human fatalities linked to drinking, or being exposed to, water containing cyanobacterial toxins.

[quote]People who swim, wade, water-ski, or do other water-splashing activities are at risk of exposure to cyanobacterial toxins. No known human fatalities have been documented from recreational or drinking water exposure to cyanobacterial toxins.

The concerns are mainly dermatitis, vomiting, and diarrhea. And with very high levels - CNS, hepatic, and renal involvement.

But...

A study* came out in April of this year in which airborne anatoxin-a (ATX) was collected for the first time during an algae bloom in Nantucket. ATX (nicknamed VFDF for "Very Fast Death Factor") is a neurotoxin produced by cyanobacteria and is one of the deadliest cyanobacterial toxins.

The danger of airborne ATX to humans isn't known yet, obviously, but animals drinking contaminated water suffocate within minutes due to paralysis of the respiratory muscles.

I'm not thinking about it in terms of this case, because as far as we know no dead wildlife was found and ATX would have killed small animals and birds so quickly that they would have been seen at water's edge. I just thought it was interesting with all the talk about algae that something so lethal had been collected in air for the first time.

*Sutherland JW, Turcotte RJ, Molden E, Moriarty V, Kelly M, Aubel M, Foss A. 2021. The detection of airborne anatoxin-a (ATX) on glass fiber filters during a harmful algal bloom. Lake Reserv Manage. 37:113–119.

Hmm. Is it possible that the wife's health condition led to a suicide pact?

Either we've been told the wrong information about the autopsies or there is honestly no sign of their deaths being from heat stroke. Since they're waiting for toxicology, I'm thinking it wasn't heat stroke at all.

I'm wondering if there was something toxic in the camel bladder, like maybe something chemical leached out of the material and into the water. It could also be inhaled toxic algae, which would explain why there was no algae on their skin.

R64, that's not true, there have been deaths due to cyanobacteria from toxic algae, I linked to this in the other thread.

[quote]Not only was going a really bad idea, but why not turn around? They could almost walk to the trailhead, it's not like they couldn't do the trail again another day. What is the thinking?

Honestly, I think they started out in the morning and planned on a short hike, then got lost or in some kind of trouble. I cannot make myself believe they were so stupid as to go out in the middle of the afternoon, that just doesn't make any sense on any level, not even for adventurers.

The father did it. It’s always the father.

It's quite a stretch to compare people being exposed to cyanobacteria the usual way with ESRD patients' blood making contact with contaminated dialysate. Come on now.

From your link:

[quote]the referal clinic was not receiving reticulated water directly from the municipal water-treatment plant, during the 1996 summer drought. Instead, this clinic received water without complete treatment, distributed by tank trucks from the municipal water-treatment plant. Occasionally, the truck driver was directed to add chlorine to the water in his truck when the visual turbidity of water was high. After arriving at the clinic, water was treated in its in-house water treatment system; a process that involved sand, carbon, and cation/anion exchange filtrations, followed by a micropore filtration, before being used for hemodialysis. Dialysis was administrated by a conventional hemodialysis system: reverse osmosis was not used in the water treatment process.

R67 you did a google search, and linked to something you did not fully read

Cyanobacteria from toxic algae in the human body can cause death, is all I'm saying. We know it kills dogs and elephants and lab animals.

It can't be ruled out, which is also what the investigators are saying. Personally I think that, as I've said before, either something has been overlooked in the investigation, or we're going to find out it's something crazy like something in the camel bladder that shouldn't have been.

[quote] Could there have been a sudden change in air pressure?

Nah. The oxygen masks would’ve come down from the sky.

[quote] Maybe they were bit by a band of snakes.

One of them was even playing the banjo!

The earth just farted. Happens all the time.

It's come to the point in the thread where we need to cast the film. I'm liking Lucy Lui for the wife.

James Corden for the husband.

Heatstroke can happen, but it leaves SIGNS IN THE BODY!! The troll posting the " it melts you from the inside!" takes--yes, and melting is visible!! Is not ambiguous when snow melts, but the autopsies didn't show signs of heatstroke!

So stop pretending that is obviously heatstroke--it's literally NOT obviously heatstroke, such that if it does end up being pinned on heatstroke, that would not have been obvious.

It was the housekeeper in cahoots with the nanny. They were sick of looking after the portly Brit and his dirty, baked bean farts. The wife was a nag, breathing all over them whilst they tried to work. The baby and dog were collateral damage.

[quote]Between this and the lesbian honeymoon camping murders, it is a bad time to go out into the outdoors.

Don’t forget Katie Janness, you can’t even walk your dog anymore.

No. David Harbour for the husband. Lily can coach him on the accent.

[quote]lesbian honeymoon camping murders

Yikes, I hadn't heard of that before but looked it up, sounds like the creepy weirdo that they were trying to get away from did it. I hope he's found.

I’ll have to go with Julian Barratt. He’s from Yorkshire, so the Lancs accent won’t be a problem for him.

Where did this toxic algae come from? I thought the trail was barren and dusty inclines. Were there ponds of still water along the trail?

The most obvious answer is heatstroke, but we haven’t heard that announced yet.

r25 I read once, before the internet, that when you touch a chemical it only takes 17 seconds for the body to absorb it and for it to run throughout your entire body

[quote] The most obvious answer is heatstroke,

SMFH.

The death of the trail runner was not said by authorities to be heatstroke either, but very likely was.

It was in the river at the bottom of the canyon, R84.

It has never been wise to walk a dog in a dark inner city park at 1 am, esp as a woman.

The authorities immediately started worrying about hazardous gasses and toxic algae, I would think that if it was simply heat stroke, they would have figured that out before now. As far as we know, they've only ruled out shooting and blunt force trauma.

[quote]The only explanations that have been ruled out are causes like gunshot wounds or blunt force trauma, Mitchell said, due to lack of any physical indications. There was neither a suicide note nor anything that would lead investigators to believe the deaths were intentional.

Time will tell, R90. Heat stroke is often a process of elimination depending on many factors.

Something else I noticed is that the spokesperson said that the family was well prepared for a day hike, which I don't think I've read before now, I apparently missed it.

[quote]She said the family was well prepared for a day hike.

But there's got to be a reason why they didn't think it was heat stroke, which is the most obvious solution here. Why wouldn't they assume heat stroke and then investigate to make sure they were correct? Instead they immediately started testing the waters and treating it as a hazmat site. I can't imagine they would have done that for no reason, there has to be something that makes them think it wasn't heat stroke.

[quote]"This is just a tragic, frustrating case for us," Mitchell said Thursday. "It will probably be a long, tedious investigation."

The authorities have to rule out causes that could pose a danger to other members of the public.

It is notable that not one other person used that trail for days in the extreme heat, or they would have been found sooner.

[quote] there has to be something that makes them think it wasn't heat stroke.

JFC, how many times does it need to be said? There was no evidence of heat stroke at the autopsy. Heat stroke leaves evidence.

What the ever-loving fuck?

LE said similar things about the trail runner, his experience, etc. Turns out he was running 6 minute miles in similarly extreme temps on similarly steep trails. He did not have any water, they did not have enough. By the wife's own account they had a previous close call due to hubris and poor judgment.

To pack in enough water for 4 in that heat with that change in elevation would have been prohibitively heavy. So, they did not.

The messaging of LE is not helping to slow the number of these deaths outdoors in extreme heat this summer. It needs to be more in line with NPS, Sierra Club and others re: temps and re: amount of water needed. People keep dying. Not victim blaming > more victims.

[quote]LE said similar things about the trail runner

I was following that case and I don't remember law enforcement saying anything about potential hazmat situations, toxic algae, rattlesnake bites, or anything like that.

At times like this, I always wish there were a DL betting pool with real money.

There were no mines or algae there. Animals and snakes were mentioned as a possibility all along.

But, as his friend so elegantly put it, he "cooked himself" as too many have this summer.

LE has to rule out possible ongoing public hazards from mines, algae, etc. They have ruled out things like blunt force trauma, gunshots, etc. They are waiting on tox findings. The results on the dog are likely to come back first.

What would you list as the options, R98?

[quote]Animals and snakes were mentioned as a possibility all along.

Law enforcement said PK might have been eaten by a mountain lion? Really? Because I'm pretty sure that was just his friend saying that and some online speculation.

Law enforcement in this case immediately jumped to some esoteric explanations like gasses from mines, toxic algae, rattlesnakes, etc. They said this was going to be a long and tedious investigation. There has to be a reason for that.

[quote]The authorities have to rule out causes that could pose a danger to other members of the public.

HEAT is a cause that could pose a danger to others.

The question here that we don't have an answer to yet is why authorities didn't simply say they thought it might be heat but they wanted to make sure it wasn't algae or gasses or something else, and warn people to stay away while they investigated, just in case.

They did, R100.

We will find out re: these dumbasses, likely nothing exotic at all.

In the vid of the helicopter, you can see the degree of heat haze, earlier in the day on Tuesday. The conditions they were in from Sunday to midday Tues were extreme. LE is calling it an "aggressive" hike and talking about heat. They have said it was nothing to do with mines at this point.

LE never seems to be on the page of warning about heat the way NPS and Sierra Club, etc do. And so people keep dying.

The people looking for the trail runner saw mountain lions, both volunteers and SAR, it was not something made up. However, no one ate him, he just got overheated, sat down and could not get up, much like the dad here in overwhelming likelihood. Being portly and wearing a baby in a backpack likely helped the deceased overheat faster. He died quickly, hopefully they did as well and did not suffer too much.

How much decomposition would there be in those extreme temps in 48 hours?

r98 yes, there is nothing like winning betting money on someone elses death.

I didn't say the existence of mountain lions was made up, r103.

If this was just plain old everyday heat stroke, why did the police say they'd never seen a death like this before?

[quote]“I’ve never seen a death like this, they were appeared to be a healthy family and a family canine. Our hearts go out to the family, and we are working hard to provide closure. We’re not going to rest until we figure this out.” Sheriff-Coroner at Mariposa Sheriff’s Office Jeremy Briese says.

Personally, I think it's plausible that he overreacted and there wasn't anything particularly strange about these deaths, but it's been a week and you'd think if they had accidentally exaggerated the circumstances, they would have walked some of this back, especially after the autopsy.

R106 are you R100?

Even with mountain lions in that park they were not nearly as likely as heat to be the cause of death, and were not.

LE does not see this a lot on that trail in Mariposa because temps are increasing in the west, previously there was tree cover and NO ONE ELSE WENT ON THAT TRAIL FOR 3 DAYS in 109 DEGREE HEAT, ie, there are not millions of parents and dog owners and groups of people doing something so reckless.

That steep and long climb out in direct sun would be too much for many, even if not wearing a small human.

AllTrails comments about how hot it gets in the canyon and the need for a LOT of water predated the fire that burned down the tree cover. This was a deep canyon that could not even get a sat phone signal and that was where they were partway up on the trail.

I do not think they are going to say more about cause of death before the tox screens. Process of elimination. Does not mean it was not heat, time will tell.

That guy did not look to be in shape to be doing such an "aggressive" hike even if it had been 100 not 109 and even if not carrying a baby in a backpack. Those things are hot as hell. Big people succumb to heat more quickly, as he seems to before the wife. Maybe something as simple as a sprained ankle delayed them in the heat or made the climb more difficult.

The baby and dog were along for the adventure, if it was 4 healthy young adults someone may have survived. The guy was likely stricken, may have also tried to carry ailing dog, the wife probably did not want to leave him, and then lost the ability to get out herself. It is not uncommon for people in a crisis to instinctively stay together. Plus the climb out was LONG and STEEP and exposed to direct sun.

Didn't the detectives stay with the bodies overnight until they could be removed with no ill effect? If there was some toxic gas in the air, it would have impacted the detectives who spent hours / a night right where the bodies were.

R107 Is it possible the Sheriff-Coroner’s exaggeration is a strategy to keep people from going out on the trails during high temperatures as there have been several deaths in CA this summer for that very reason? First responders and LE are also put at risk when they have to rescue/recover intrepid hikers/cyclists/runners, not to mention the costs of some of these missions.

I'm sorry, r108, but you're arguing with things you apparently think I said, rather than what I actually said.

From the very beginning, law enforcement, specifically the sheriff who is also a coroner, was talking about how these were the kind of deaths they'd never seen before. They suggested toxic algae, escaped gasses from mines, lightning strikes, rattlesnake bites, and other possibilities, and very notably did not suggest it was the heat.

We don't know exactly why they did that. I want to know why. There has to be a reason, and I want to know what it is. That's it. That's all.

That doesn't mean I think the cause of death is absolutely not the heat.

In fact, after learning that they told the press it might be toxic gasses, only to find out later that there were no other dead animals in the area, I've come to suspect that they may have overreacted to the deaths, inadvertently exaggerating the situation and making it a mystery when it really isn't one.

They were definitely on drugs! No sober or sane person will bring a fucking baby on a hike in over100 F weather.

they offed themselves. I said it in the last thread.

The feels like temperature is almost always in the NEGATIVE out there where it is dry.

It'd be interesting to know if the parents, one or both, were on medications that could have made them more susceptible.

I'm forever grateful to the DLer who posted about heat and antidepressants; during the Portland heat wave, I had to do a fairly short walk to the weed store and it's usually no issue. However, there is no tree cover and it's blinding hot concrete all the way to the business. Because of the DL poster, I'd brought two ice cold cans of La Croix in my shoulder bag (MARY!!!!).

Sure enough, on the walk home, I could tell my body was heating up much faster than it had in the past. Had I not had that cold, cold water, I'd have been in deep shit between there and home. Thank you, DL poster back in June.

Yes, R110. Also, no dead animals, birds, etc were found in the area.

I hope not, R114.

More likely just underestimated the demands of the situation, as they did with the close call when hiking at high altitude that the woman recounts on her Insta, clearly not having learned to be more careful.

Thanks for clarifying, R112. These threads seem to bring out "it could not be heat stroke" trolls.

All 4 being bitten by rattlesnakes seems even less likely.

Lightning was another possibility floated but unlikely for 4 unless tightly packed together. Large numbers of animals have rarely died this way.

I do think it is unusual and a strange death, maybe LE there just has a dramatic personality? And to immediately go to causes such as heat seems to be victim blaming. But, good to rule out mines, algae, etc, which could pose threats to other people, pets, etc. But, the biggest threat to people and their dogs and babies seems to be poor judgement. So many of these deaths this summer.

Maybe, R111. But then those things turned out not to be the cause.

A unified message from LE, media, outdoor groups, etc, that HEAT KILLS seems in order.

Lessons from this tragedy and Kreycik's death four sure re: heat and redundant safety measures. I am curious about the sat phones not working until much farther up the trail, I have not seen this discussed when personal locator beacons come up as a safety measure. Is this common? Are more hikers high up in mountains so it is not likely to be an issue? Was this just an odd one off issue re: sat coverage that day? Anyone know?

Many adults can look back at something they did that could have been disastrous and feel lucky and learn to be more careful, esp as age and esp as parents. But not all do. She seemed to see almost dying as some spiritual woo woo thing. Spirit dogs wagging tails whatever that means.

I think it was just a really sad and very avoidable tragedy. Some have commented that her Insta presence had really dropped off and wondered @ mental health, but I think she had a new baby and was going to school. Stepping back from IG is healthy.

Their house nearby looked lovely in the article, deer walking by. Shame they did not stay home.

Glad you are ok, R116!

The story about the CA mom dying on that family hike due to allergy meds or antidepressants or some other super common med was horrifying to me. Her family tried to cool her down but it is very hard to do on a trail, even with ice and air con it is an iffy outcome. She had convulsions and died before airlifted out. Horrifying for her kids. As temps get more extreme, it is really important for folks to understand heat and to be aware if meds may impact ability to regulate heat.

So, some bit of good that came out of her tragedy and the thread about the trail runner. Can't change their untimely deaths but most people make more cautious decisions when they have necessary info.

Indian ghosts emerging as the strongest hypothesis.

R107, the police dude most likely said he'd never seen something like it because he'd never seen something like it. Coming upon a couple with a baby and a dog all dropped dead on a trail is a striking occurrence (and a reason we're on Part 2).

I imagine his experience would be of domestic violence, hunting accidents, obvious suicides, car wreck fatalities, etc. Gruesome, but not difficult to comprehend what happened.

R25 you obviously don’t live in the SF Bay Area or know many people who work in tech industry. But most are not the stereotypical nerds and your use of “Asian wives” as a pejorative is getting old. People who work in tech industry here tend to be more health/ lifestyle conscious than those who don’t work in tech, contrary to stereotypes of nerds. Many of them hike, go camping, in fact go to any REI or North Face store on the weekends and you’ll see many techies and their families. Does that mean they’re not smarmy in showing off weekend adventures, latest e-bikes, or outdoor gadgets on SM. I guess if you want to look at it that way, sure.

R124 I concur. The deceased young family is not the norm, okay? It's tragic, and it would be helpful to learn what happened to them, if possible, so we can protect others in the future.

Had the Brit been hiking on his OWN trail, in his OWN country, this never would have happened.

Oh, great, the “sat phone,” “obv,” and “esp” troll arrived.

It won’t be long now before she reminds us he “DJ’d” and went to Burning Man.

Okay I’m calling it, heat stroke. The reason it hasn’t been announced is because they’re testing for drugs too because what sober person would set out on a hike when the temperature is over 100°.

127 comments and no new information.

R127, it is wonderful how you add so much to these threads!

Maybe some of these outdoor companies could launch a campaign on the dangers of hiking and running in extreme heat. Stories of deaths in MSM this summer do not seem to be deterring enough people. Even after the huge coverage of the trail runner, esp in California. If they are at REI and North Face, maybe that is where the information needs to be disseminated.

There is messaging about the dangers of heat at Burning Man after all.

Is is some variant on "I'm going to do what I want to do when I want to do it?" If it was pouring rain with lightening they would stay in. How can this be framed as similarly or more dangerous? Camelback could be involved too. "If you can't pack in enough water to make it safe, do the hike or run in a cooler season" etc.

R124 Actually, I do know plenty of the type, which is why I have such a strong, disdainful opinion. The new breed of Bay Area “techie” (or nerd, as they used to be called) pretend they’re health conscious but it’s more about projecting a lifestyle than actual well-being. They have something to prove and dammit, they’ll show you! They’re desperate to prove their physical prowess by pushing the limits of what is sensible. This is a classic, albeit tragic, example of that. Thirty years ago, a nerd would have been happy going to Radio Shack on the weekend. Maybe take the baby to a local park. Now? It’s all about doing crazy shit…climbing this mountain, backpacking a remote trail, DJing in Mongolia. It’s a free country, but it’s sad the baby and dog were innocent victims of their parents’ personality complexes and literally cooked to death.

Interesting

The post-mortem diagnosis of heat-related deaths presents certain difficulties.

Firstly, pre-terminal or terminal body temperatures are often not available. Additionally, naked-eye and microscopic findings are non-specific or inconclusive and depend on the duration of survival after exposure.

The diagnosis of hyperthermia is based on scene investigation, the circumstances of death, and the reasonable exclusion of other causes of death.

A heat-related cause of death may be assumed if the investigations provide compelling evidence of continuous exposure to a hot environment, and fail to identify an independent cause of death (Nixdorf-Miller et al 2006, and Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

The non-specific post-mortem findings in cases of fatal heatstroke include: pulmonary and cerebral oedema, necrosis of the liver, neuronal degeneration of the brain, rhabdomyolysis (breakdown of muscle), tubular casts in the kidneys and signs of disseminated intravascular coagulation e.g. fibrin thrombi in small blood vessels (Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

The post-mortem biochemistry findings are related to dehydration, electrolyte disturbance and skeletal muscle damage. They include increased serum creatinine, mild-to-moderate elevation of urea, and myoglobinuria, however, the diagnosis of heat-related fatalities cannot be based on post-mortem biochemical analyses alone (Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

[quote] A heat-related cause of death may be assumed if the investigations provide compelling evidence of continuous exposure to a hot environment, and fail to identify an independent cause of death (Nixdorf-Miller et al 2006, and Palmiere and Mangin 2013).

CHINA! CHINA! CHINA!

What is the chance of heat stroke for ALL of them including the dog? All at once too. That would seem really strange.

The dog is overcome by heat and the guy starts to carry him. Then the baby that he's already carrying is overcome, too. Eventually he's unable to keep carrying them and he sits down, putting both the baby and dog down next to him. His wife is able to keep going a little further and she tries to get help before she's unable to continue.

This would seem to be the logical explanation, but they still had some water in their camelback, they were experienced hikers but didn't attempt to find some place to sit and stay cool until temperatures dropped, and the autopsies have found no evidence of heat stroke. You'd think with three human bodies there would be some evidence in one of them, at least in the baby.

The tree cover was burned out in 2018, there is no shade once climbing 1400 feet back up from the river, R137.

How likely is it that people out in temps likely higher than 109 degrees (109 was registered in shade) and in direct sun for hours (and exposed for 48+ hours) + a dog were NOT impacted by heat? The canyon would absorb and radiate the heat up off the trail. They had to climb 1400 feet back up the trail to get to help or their truck. How likely is it that their ability to do so was impacted by heat? It is so steep that the trail has switchbacks. LE called the hike "aggressive."

They did not all die at the same moment, the deaths could even have been spread over Sunday, Monday and Tuesday morning.

It is likely it was cooler when they started and got hotter than they expected. And there was no cell signal.

R132 May your Insta stand as a testament to your brilliant self-promotion and monumental stupidity. Whoever can take the biggest, craziest risk wins... or dies trying.

[quote]R128 Okay I’m calling it, heat stroke.

At LAST a new theory!

I didn't specifically say anything about shade from trees, r138.

R139, if they were dead before it got hot, then no, they weren't impacted by 109F heat for 48 hours.

This thread has gotten tedious. We're at the "Imma argue with you over something you didn't say" and "why didn't these NURDZ go to RADIO SHACK like NURDZ did back in MY DAY" part of the discussion and it's stupid.

[quote] they were experienced hikers

Yes, well that's proven to be a joke. Like King George's mules.

The dead trail runner was experienced too, he had a practice of carrying no water or phone, caught up with him.

These dead people had inadequate water and 2 phones that had no coverage.

All cooked.

If there is no tree cover there really is not other shade to be had there. The Google Earth view on the prior thread really brings that home.

Have they ruled out aliens?

Bigfoot has been suggested but aliens are always a possibility.

Vampires. Check the crypts.

Maybe the vamps are hiding in the abandoned mines?

the drugs killed them, not the heat

Algae blooms in rivers? I thought it was found in still water like ponds and puddles, not running water (as rivers and streams and creeks are).

But I’m not a science person, so.

I searched for photos of the Savage-Lundy trail, trying to get a sense of what it looked like on the big, open switchback section of trail and found these on FB. They were taken in January 2019 (six months after the fire) by group working to re-establish & clean up the trail.

Obviously, two & half years later, the chaparral has rebounded and it doesn't look quite this desolate & charred. But they definitely give you a sense of how steep, and how exposed, portions of it are. Check out photo #8 in the album (in particular). The photographer is on the trail, looking at the people on switchback below him -- they're little specks!

The only reason someone here is being a snotty dick about the *possibility* of heat stroke is because there hasn’t been a published news report naming it as the cause of death. It makes the most sense.

It’s 94 degrees in my neighborhood and there are warnings about hydrating and staying inside unless you have to go out and check your pets and elderly neighbors. But people (and infant and dog) hiking in full direct sunlight in temperatures over 100 couldn’t possibly had died from it. That’s just preposterous.

R78 "it's literally NOT obviously heatstroke"

Are you a middle school girl? Literally?

Algae bloom happens in warm slow-moving water. It is visible and it smells bad. If someone were suffering from the heat, and went into the water to cool off, wouldn’t that be evident? Although water evaporates, bits of plants and silt, etc. would stick to fabric and hair.

Also, someone said authorities had tested the water in their Camelbak. What’s the source for that? The tox screen for humans takes weeks. Is it quicker and easier to test water for poisons?

The terrain looks brutal, R151 regardless of the heat. The photos are a great find.

In the video of the helicopter lifting them out there is significant heat haze at 11 am.

Their decisions make no sense at all.

The guy is big and not that fit looking.

Locals do not use this trail in the summer. Ergo, they were not found by another hiker on Sunday, Monday or 1/2 of Tuesday.

R132 no, you don’t know the type, you obviously don’t live in the Bay Area and don’t know any techies out here. Techies here are into outdoor activities because duh, it’s the Bay Area and weather/ geography make it easy to be active outdoors. Second, you must be making up shit or is very old, as you seem to have this misconception of nerds as happy going to the Radio Shack 30 years ago. I’m a native Bay Area resident, I grew up with and know these people, in recent years I’ve come to know transplant Bay Area residents who work in tech. Your broad generalization of techies is laughable. They ARE more interested in health, why do you think some of them go overboard by doing biohacking shit to their own bodies?

Techies make up a significant portion of high-paying workers in the Bay Area. Bay Area residents like to partake in outdoor activities available to them locally and within 4 hours drive. Techies have money to spend on outdoor gear and sports equipments, it fits in with their inclination towards gadgetry. Today’s techies fit in with the generally healthy lifestyle that’s promoted here in the Bay Area. People actually make it a point to partake in outdoor activities, it’s part of the Bay Area culture or mentality. The weather is nice most months of the year, even winter months are conducive to outdoor activities.

Should read “ Second, you must be making up shit or are very old,”

The most interesting thing about this case are the assumptions made about this couple. They hike every weekend. They are experienced hikers. They've lived in the area for about a year and know the area well. She worked for the Red Cross and knew all about things like heat stroke. They moved to the area in order to hike. And again, they hiked every weekend. It's no wonder no one wants to believe heat stroke, including LE, who took one look at them and spoke to a few friends. I'm sure this couple had all the best gear and looked "experienced." But Mother Nature doesn't care about Instagram or sport watches.

R156 I knew those guys when I surfed my last years. They tracked all their waves on their watch, could post them to apps and Facebook, and competed with themselves. They couldn't have the experience if it wasn't documented. Everything they do is for the Gold Star. I imagine it's the same with hiking. Or trail running. I'm glad I'm old.

R151 Those images are helpful, thanks. One article says they were on Savage-Lundy and another says Hite Cove (linked). The trails intersect, but Savage-Lundy is considered the most challenging in that Merced River area.

Where did the info that she worked for the Red Cross come from?

they hiked every weekend...with the fucking baby? the poor baby...

glad the baby is in heaven and no longer need to suffer.

The baby might have died of dehydration rather than heat stroke. We don't know who died when. Were the parents incapacitated before the baby died or after?

What were they thinking? A one year old does not need to go on a fucking hike! In fact, having a baby should have deterred them from doing stupid things like this if they had an ounce of common sense.

The chances of the adults wearing biometric devices - watches or rings - seems high. Seems that may give time of death. The phones may have data re: route.

CHINISE HEATSTROKE BAT LABS!

I'm backing the toxic algae theory due to the lack of physical evidence for heatstroke.

Mother Nature is a literal Family Annihilator!!

Mother Nature eats her own for sure.

What r158 said. X10. There are posters on here—one in particular—who acts like he knows these people personally and posters blindly believing this person’s take on this tragedy because he sounds authoritative. Calling the family risk takers and braggarts because they had an AllTrails and IG account? Stating that they did this hike because they’re nerds trying to prove themselves as hip? If you saw my IG account, you’d think I had no friends and was reclusive. Neither is true. I don’t even follow my family on FB because I talk to them instead. I can just imagine what some of you who are obsessed would determine about me if I had died on a trail.

I’m also the poster who asked about the Camelbak. No one knows how much water it holds. Maybe they had other sources as well that LE didn’t bother to disclose. I’m NOT saying they weren’t thirsty, dehydrated or delirious. But there was some water left that was left untouched. They were experienced hikers who got into trouble. That’s all I know as fact.

Irresponsible parents to bring a baby and dog to an area like that in the intense heat. But I still feel Murder was on the menu.

There was a DM article today about the first five year old to make the Appalachian Trail hike with his parents in record time. So it's apparently becoming a thing to try for these "records" with you little kids.

Seth Meyers was joking about that last night R172. He said the mother proclaimed "I only turned my back on him for a few seconds!"

Drinking water does not cool the core temp, at the stage of heat stroke it will not help. I think they died prior to dying of dehydration.

There are so many things that could have gone wrong and that might have caused them to be out on the trail longer than planned.

That said, with temps of 109+ recorded in the shade, just being on the trail with a baby and furry dog was so irresponsible that it turned lethal People are just trying to get into the mindset. The air quality from the fires could have made exertion that much more difficult. But the parents who would never have held a gun to the baby or dog, somehow, unlike all the other locals who did not use this trail for 3 days, seemed to find these actions a good idea. No amount of water would have changed the outcome, drinking is not a treatment for the likely to be fatal medical emergency that is heat stroke. 80% death rate WITH medical treatment. They had none and were on the trail for 48 hours+.

As it gets hotter and hotter out west there will be more and more of these tragedies. A public education campaign could save lives.

R170, they had gotten into trouble previously but seemed to brush it off. It did not make them more cautious, even after the baby.

Imagine how much effort went into baby gear, a baby car seat, prenatal yoga. Yet, somehow, this weather forecast and poor air quality was treated as flippantly as almost dying at altitude. It does not compute, no one else was on that trail for 3 days. For reasons.

echungster We started this trip with "all the gear and no idear" 😂 Jonny and I went into this not truly understanding how strenuous trekking at 13k altitude would be. There were times at the highest point (around 14k) where I felt nauseous and dizzy, but let my breath guide me one step at a time. But we made it back in one piece- with greater strength and accomplishment.

Others might have learned to be more cautious, esp with 2 other lives depending on them.

I've been trying all day to accidentally bump into a woman who grew up on the western edge of Yosemite; Oakhurst, I think. Once our accidental meeting takes place, I'll casually ask how her family is and if she's been back lately. She's very talkative and gossipy so hopefully she'll say, "Did you hear...?"

She only works at my location on Mondays and Wednesdays, so time is running out.

I was out and about today... a hot, humid day in the 90s, maybe reaching 100 in some places. My car is air conditioned, but I walked a few blocks to some stores. It was very uncomfortable...sweating and feels like there's no air with the humidity. Just with that alone, I was thinking of that family in that brutal heat, especially the baby and the dog. My small exposure to the heat today is nothing compared with what they faced. I can't imagine... it makes me sad. I know the decision to hike that day was beyond stupid, but the suffering they must have felt.

R175 Yes, because the conditions have changed. If you look at the map of Hite Cove Road where their car was parked at the trailhead, it's not a loop. You hike to the end where there's a gate and then you turn around and head back. But this family continued through the gate and onto the Savage-Lundy trail where you can see the topology drop precipitously into the canyon. They were found almost at the end of that trail, in Devil's Gulch. What were they thinking? Other hikers have left comments with warnings.

My sympathy is with the baby and the dog, who had no choice in the matter.

R160 : That graphic/map at R160 is wrong about where their car was parked. There are two entrances to the Hites Cove trail. They were parked at the *southern* trailhead of Hites Cove, which is very close to the trailhead of the Savage-Lundy trail. (apparently, the last portion of the road to the Savage-Lundy trailhead is only accessible by 4X4, so people park by the Hites Cove trailhead)

From the Fresno Bee (which I cannot link):

[quote] Mariposa residents John Gerrish, Ellen Chung, their daughter, Miju, and family dog, Oski, were found dead Tuesday on the Savage-Lundy Trail in Devil’s Gulch near Hites Cove.

[quote] Briese said the family was found about 1.5 miles from their vehicle, a gray truck. It was parked at a trailhead down Hites Cove Road past the Jerseydale Sierra National Forest station and community of Mariposa Pines. That remote trailhead along a dirt road is north of Highway 49 and east of Highway 140. It’s different from another popular trailhead to the Hites Cove area along Highway 140 in the river canyon closer to Yosemite.

A more accurate map. (from SF Chronicle)

“Stating that they did this hike because they’re nerds trying to prove themselves as hip?” R170 yes, it’s one or a couple of posters who think they know everything about techies and lump them into stereotypes including Asian wives as another sinister trait. It’s obvious from their posts that they don’t know many people who work in Bay Area tech industry. Judging people by SM presence (or lack of it) only paints a partial picture. People only post what they want to be representative of themselves instead of the whole, honest, banal picture.

R156 [QUOTE] Your broad generalization of techies is laughable. They ARE more interested in health, why do you think some of them go overboard by doing biohacking shit to their own bodies?

Oh, honey, you’re just proving my point. They are superficially into “health” but more into showmanship. Biohacking is healthy?? I’m ROFLMAO. You can’t be serious to use that as a standard for a healthy lifestyle. Doesn’t Dorsey do that? He looks like utter shit.

If this couple were really concerned about health, they would have cared about the natural physical limitations of their helpless baby and dog. If they were into health, the husband wouldn’t have been a overweight as is evidenced by his rotund gut in that picture with his wife. The wife admitted to a TBI and a separate close-call. And where was her instinct to protect her baby? No reasonable person would have taken the baby out like that. Hell, normal mothers think twice taking their babies to the beach on a hot day.

Health and well-being go hand in hand. If they were concerned about health, a brisk evening walk was in order with baby Miju. It was all a show, and all for show.

Sorry abou the formatting above!

And the typo *about

[quote]r185 Sorry abou the formatting above!

[quote]r186 And the typo *about

Your mewling apologies won’t bring the baby back!

"glad the baby is in heaven and no longer need to suffer."

R162 Um, what? The baby fried out on the trail. If there was a "heaven," I think the "god" would not just let an innocent baby fry like an egg, right?

R188 as shown repeatedly, God does not give a shit.

Maybe the baby was on acid like the parents

I hear the baby was a big time Burning Man DJ, and the father felt threatened by that and offed the whole family.

Have they confirmed that that was in fact the couple’s ACTUAL baby??

The tot could have offed the parents and faked her own death, substituted another baby in her place.

I think they got dehydrated and drank water from one of the nearby sources. Unfortunately, the water was brackish.

I see you, r193. I see you.

I just hope this turns out to be heat stroke or some other mundane cause of death. The talk of deadly algae blooms feels a little too much like we're in the opening scenes of some SciFi Channel movie and discredited scientist Arliss Howard or Josh Holloway is about to propose some crackpot-sounding but ultimately correct hypothesis about whatever new method the planet will shortly be using to exterminate us all.

R195 Periods and commas are free.

Lots of trail reviews bring up how hot the canyon gets, how steep the trail can be and how a lot of water is needed.

" It was a cooler day with a breeze, so it wasn’t too hot as we climbed out of that canyon. I would not want to do this hike on a warm day. This trail is not for everyone."

R177 here. I gave up on playing coy and actively tracked her down before she left for the day.

Unfortunately, with the exception of one bizarre rumor that her father heard very early on, which is too stupid to even repeat, there was nothing new:

Knowing they've had a few summers' experience in the area, the real locals can't comprehend their choice of that trail.

It's horrible trail. With the poison oak, rattlesnakes, and potential for broken ankles, it just isn't worth it. She included spring hiking, when some people make an exception, in her assessment.

Only local redneck kids would go there at this time of year. They go out on ATVs to drink and shoot birds and small animals. Lovely.

There are a couple of nice swimming holes which are a little difficult to get to, but could be visited as a full-day hike. She said she'd love to go to one now but the area is too sketchy and, in any case, she would be too afraid of chemical runoff.

R195, agreed. Not to sound callous, but I'm also hoping for the sake of humanity, this is just a case of old-fashioned heat stroke..

Thanks, R198.

I was under the impression that they were all together when they died based on how it was described in here and the news sorry I saw a few days ago, but Ellen was 90 feet away up the mountain….possibly leaving to get help but couldn’t make it? Jonathan was in a seated position with the baby in the carrier and the dog was next to him. They were a full 1.5 miles from their truck, which is a LONG way away in the stifling heat. They didn’t stand a chance, whatever happened.

Very sad, R201. The trail is so steep that there are switchbacks to make it possible to hike up and it was all uphill to get to the truck or to get high enough to get cell coverage.

At that point, neither adult was physically able to hike up that trail. The elevation change is said to be `1400 feet.

[quote]And where was her instinct to protect her baby? No reasonable person would have taken the baby out like that. Hell, normal mothers think twice taking their babies to the beach on a hot day.

I know DL is now a full-on frau-fest "won't someone think of the children" forum these days but the point a whole shitload of people have been making, which you keep deliberately ignoring, is that they may have gone out in the morning and expected to be back well before it got hot.

Everyone saying that they went out with a baby in 100-degree heat needs to shut up. You don't know. None of us know.

It must've been the 5G interacting with the vaxx magnets that done made them stick to the iron in the soil.

I'm from a hot climate, and even here most people don't understand how deadly heat and heatstroke can be. These people were stupid but they didn't deserve to die for their mistake. Most people don't think a walk in the sun can result in death.

I think when I get old enough and sick of this world, I will take a long hike in 100 degree heat. I hope it's not too painful, I wonder if you become too delirious to understand how bad you feel. I hope these people didn't suffer too badly and it was over fairly quick.

Thanks to the posters upthread for posting the maps from the SF Chronicle and text from the Fresno Bee, which clarify a confused narrative around where these people were parked and then found.

The "1.5 mile" distance from their parked car is a bit off, per Google maps the actual straight-line distance from where they were found to where their car was parked was more like 3000 feet - it would obvs be a much farther (is that correct word? lol) walking distance with the vertical climb, so perhaps that's the discrepancy. I don't hike so am open to education here.

The Savage-Lundy trail and its deadly switchbacks don't appear to be that near the Hite Cove Trail, which is 1.5 miles further north. They certainly were nowhere near the northern Hite Cove trailhead on Rt 140, which is nearly a full 3 miles north of them (making the graphic at r160 very inaccurate, as previously noted). In fact, the Hite Cove trail and S-L trail don't appear to officially intersect at all, you'd have to follow the Merced River south thru Nutmeg Gulch, Sims Cove and Marble Point before reaching Savage-Lundy.

It seems like the died fairly close to their car and the road, and they might have made it if not for the elevation and the canyon they had to climb out of.

The "Burning Man/DJ/Instagram show off" posts are funny, but those countering them with "they were experienced hikers and normal techies" aren't quite right either. Her "all gear and no idear" IG post about their high-altitude close call has been posted a few times and shows that, for all their experience, they also weren't very smart about risks. And going on that hike at high temps (whether 90s or 100s) with two vulnerable beings was reckless. The dead trail runner was also experienced, which didn't prevent him from foolishly going for a fast run in extreme heat with no water and killing himself.

I imagine the baby and dog went first, which made it even harder for them to hike out, carrying them as well.

That toxic algae theory is BS. I had a fish aquarium and Cyanobacteria was a common issue among people with pet fish. Yes, it's bad and could kill the fish but people? Sorry, I have stuck my hands and arms in tanks with tones of that cleaning it out and nothing ever happened, not even a rash. The only way would be to ingest it through drinking water which I doubt they all did simultaneously including the dog and baby.

R208, that is a good point, and reminds me of the saying “a little bit of knowledge is a terrible thing”. Someone with less experience might not have have attempted the things the dead people did.

I’m also thinking about dumb things I’ve done while hiking, as a total amateur, that could have ended in disaster. There are two hikes where we realized we’d gotten in over our heads, and it’s a terrible feeling.

R207 Part of the confusion is that Hite Cove Road is different from Hite Cove Trail. The family's truck was parked off Hite Cove Road past the Jerseydale Sierra National Forest station. They started hiking on Hite Cove Road which connected them to the Savage-Lundy trail. R182 posted a good map (linked).

Speaking of heat stroke, a man recently died from it while hiking in Death Valley. You might wonder who goes to Death Valley in the middle of summer, but it's the most popular time to visit for international travelers (German tourists seem to especially like it).

WTF is up with German tourists always kicking the bucket in America's national parks? Do they not understand it's not Disneyland?

I have been to Death Valley in the winter when it's only 80F AKA early spring. Every one knows it's one of the hottest places on earth, hotter on average than the Sahara desert. There is only one road and most stops usually have small groups of people checking out the key lookout points. But if you go off road you are on your own. Cellphone and GPS drop out to zero about two hours into the ride. You need to bring an actual paper map. Going in the dead of summer is just crazy unless you want to make a video of an egg frying on the ground. At least bring water and know you cant really hike in that temperature. Stay in the fucking car unless you are just stepping out to take pics. The record temp there was 134F according to Guinness World Records.

Fun Fact: 15 to 20 people a year on average die falling off the cliff into the Grand Canyon. 10 people a year in Yosemite. 3 people per year in Death Valley.

R213 Mildly skewed "facts" but still fun

Jesus fucking Christ, can’t these assholes just hang out at a pool bar and stay cool?

For those who are saying that the husband is fat because of the one photo with the patagonia on. I think he was carrying stuff underneath it. All other photos linked in the original thread show a very trim and fit guy. It seems to be that one photo which throws it off. But maybe he suddenly blew up?

I'll try to explain, R213. There are a lot of Germans, and they have disposable income + generous vacation entitlements. They love to travel. The USA is a favorite destination. In Germany, everyone walks, lots of people hike, some people mountaineer. Hiking in Germany can be very staid--well groomed trails (more like paths), very good signage, someplace serving food/drink, a village probably not far away (Germany is densely populated).

When I did a southwest national parks trip with a German friend, we noticed that most American visitors drove up, took a pic, and drove away. Out on the trails there were German families and hard-core American outdoorsy types. The Germans were dressed for a Sunday walk, the Americans were geared up. My friend and I had trouble following the cairns and once turned back (thank god) when we were supposed to scale a huge boulder on a supposedly easy hike. I think Germans extrapolate from their home-country experience and underestimate the distances, the heat, the level of gear/expertise needed, the frequent lack of nearby civilization in the American outdoors.

some of the outdoorsy types are crazy. Someone I used to know even ran a fucking marathon in Death Valley.

R218, yeah, some people are hardcore. I think they’re Type A personalities who need to feel superior.

Used to know cuz he died, R218?

[Quote]Unfortunately, with the exception of one bizarre rumor that her father heard very early on, which is too stupid to even repeat.

Come on, R198, it's the DL! Humour us.

R217, I have heard the same from friends in Vegas area re: British and German tourists, want to get out in the desert in August.

Denizens of San Francisco seem to have a similar cognitive bias. Just this summer, Kreycik, this family and the guy who died in Death Valley all seemed to underestimate heat based on their extensive experience being outdoorsy in the Bay Area.

The air quality is also a factor in CA in particular, with the fires. It impacts not only the advisability but also the ability to do strenuous exercise outdoors. Irrespective of heat or elevation although they would be compounding factors.

I think it would be unusual for this dead guy to be fat but he was BIG. Bigger people have a harder time discharging heat than smaller and thinner people, just biology.

The terrain in Devil's Gulch looks so ugly and grim to me. I have seen the elevation from the river listed as 1400 foot change and elsewhere as 2900 feet, pretty jaw dropping challenge after being outdoors in the heat, possibly for hours.

That hike even at lower temps has an estimated 4 L of water for each adult, never mind the other 2. The biggest Camelback is 3 L and LE has mentioned 1. Not even "all the gear and no idear" this time.

Very sad. But that was very arduous terrain and what LE called an "aggressive hike", heat radiating up from the canyon and no tree cover, just horrifying environment, never mind with a baby and dog. If the couple was alone they or maybe one would have made it out. Those backpacks really up the heat factor for the one wearing it and the dog could have been ill and carried. Hope they did not suffer.

I am intrigued though R198 by what your acquaintance meant by the area being sketchy? Was she referring to a criminal element? I suppose it's the frau in me, always overlooking Occam's Razor and getting my websleuth on.

[quote] Everyone saying that they went out with a baby in 100-degree heat needs to shut up. You don't know. None of us know.[quote]

So they didn’t take a baby out in 100-degree heat? Because that’s what was reported. Oh, excuse me; maybe it was merely 90-something when they began.

Air quality was not great due to the fires. That impacts how well the body can tolerate climbing 1400 or 2900 feet or how it can tolerate extreme temps. I think there were many factors. Others have said their ability to exercise outdoors was impacted by the air quality. Not obviously smoky does not mean body is operating at peak ability.

Parents who love their kids prioritize the safety of the kids and of the parents, so they can be there to raise them. Same with pet owners.

The runner was described by his friend as running down very steep trails with poor footing with his son in a jogging stroller. Then he went out and ran 6 minute miles up steep trails in temps he had expressed concern about the previous day. These people whose "adventures" are a big part of their self image and rep among friends and acquaintances are driven by impulses that run counter to truly loving their children, or in the case of the hikers, their dog. Would they BOARD the dog in a place that would take it out and make it climb steeply in direct sun in 109 degree temps? Their paws can burn on the hot ground. Would they have authorized the nanny to go on the same outing wearing the baby?

There IS a degree of recklessness, thrill seeking and narcissism, one with the AllTrails records and the others with Instagram, etc. Untimely deaths, a dead baby and 2 kids with no dad. They seem to not grasp that literally being alive and present is the basis of the whole relationship. Kids treated like props in photos and taken on risky "adventures" in both families. Kreycik is lucky there was not a tragedy with his young son. Those marveling at his feats with the kid should have called him out.

Sad all around, but saddest that the dead baby and dog had no say at all.

"literally being alive" R226 as opposed to "being alive"

R227, I hear Devil's Gulch has some really pretty wildflowers...

Are there scenes of this discovery? I suppose they'd normally be called 'crime scene photos' in other circumstances. I'm not looking for up-close grotesque photos, but more the layout/position of where this group was found?

Those have not been published, R229. The SF Chronicle had maps and photos of things like footprints at the trailhead. There is video of the helicopter lifting them out, the heat haze is visible at 11 am on Tuesday, it makes it much more clear how heat radiates up from the canyon. There are links to trail photos on here and to a Google Earth link on the prior thread that gives a sense of the terrain and steepness of the trail. There are vids of the trail on YT but mostly seem to be before the fires in 2018, so very different now with no tree cover.

Had they done the trail before?

There is no evidence that they had, R231. He had the easier trail, known for wildflowers, mapped on his AllTrails but I don't believe it was marked as completed. None of those trails was on her AllTrails.

what kind of dog was it? it's probably not a breed that's used to this kind of activity.

R233 Which breeds are used to that level of heat on hikes?

I think the working dog breeds would be better suited to this type of activity.

Dogs cannot easily discharge heat. Any dog with a thick coat would suffer even more. Warnings have been issued re: taking dogs on trails in hot weather in CA, linked in this thread or the preceding one. They did not seem to think that limitations that apply to ordinary mortals or their animals applied to them, or they did not think at all. Very sad for the baby and dog who had not say and who were most vulnerable to heat.

I think it's important that someone express the thought that the baby and dog had no say.

[quote]thrill seeking and narcissism, one with the AllTrails records and the others with Instagram, etc. Untimely deaths, a dead baby and 2 kids with no dad

Will you just fuck off? You have repeated yourself over and over and over. I referenced you in a previous post and you are not an authority on these people. I block you and most of the thread disappears.

I’m assuming you have low self-esteem, no friends, aren’t a risk-taker and have a goiter because you have a DL account.

DL is TRIGGERED!

They had two other kids?!

R212 My BIL knew Mr Stanback, the man who died in Death Valley. Stanback was heir to Stanback Powder painkiller and a philanthropist. My BIL said his organization was shocked and couldn't comprehend the man they knew going hiking in Death Valley in the summer. So not a feisty German. Just an old Southern painkiller heir. So yes, people do things that are incomprehensible to the rest of us.

⇧ heir to the Stanback Powder painkiller fortune. . . .

[Quote] people do things that are incomprehensible to the rest of us.

No doubt.

What was in the painkillers?

Do painkillers help when you are being cooked from the inside?

[quote] There was no evidence of heat stroke at the autopsy.

Link to a direct statement by LE or the coroner saying this?

The dead trail runner had 2 kids, R240.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Suicides?

Cooked from the inside, R249.

Owners should be educated by vets re: the dangers. This dog looked to have a double coat.

"Any dog can develop heatstroke if left or exercised in a hot environment. For any dog, it’s far safer to skip walks altogether during hot weather and you may need to find ways to keep your dog cool, such as paddling pools, fans and grooming. However, owners of the breeds highlighted by this study should be particularly cautious in hot weather."

They likely would not have left the dog locked in a car in direct sun, people need to be educated to see the risks on the trail can be the same or higher with exercise as an additional risk factor.

[quote] I’m also the poster who asked about the Camelbak. No one knows how much water it holds.

The largest size holds 3L.

R213, like you, I've only ever been to Death Valley in the winter months. I can't imagine going there in the dead of summer! Rough, rough, extreme terrain and conditions.

Commenters from DM agrees with you, R252

TheGreatestCornholio, Williamston, United States, 32 minutes ago

Some people just aren't cut out for real world rugged living. He should have stayed with the "tour group" method of adventure. College life at Purdue and office work at a auto facility do not prepare you for desert exploration without the "tour group company" there to keep you safe. Stop people, stop doing these dumb things, you're not equipped for it.

Chillin, somewhere, United States, 18 minutes ago

I live in the desert and post this on every death story. DO NOT HIKE IN THE DESERT IN EXTREME HEAT! Your sweat evaporates so fast that you don't realize you're sweating. You literally have to drink a gallon of water an hour just to keep up. Take the desert seriously. There is a reason the animals in the desert do not come out in the daytime.

Lars17, Within, United States, 16 minutes ago

You can't fix stu pid

HunnyBear7979, Los Angeles, United States, 13 minutes ago

Only a completely naive fool would visit Death Valley in the summer. I've been there 3 times, always in March or April and that was brutal enough.

agree

Kater, London, United Kingdom, 9 hours ago

You have to wonder at the stupidity of people going for hikes in those sort of temperatures

All of these people died spending extended time outdoors, exercising when there were heat warnings.

What is the thinking process?

How Heat Kills So Quickly

We all know that heat stroke can kill, but since the autopsy showed no signs of heat stroke, you might as well also link some articles on heart attacks or pneumonia that didn't kill them either.

Was the wife ahead of her husband/kid/dog on the trail? Or was she lower down and behind them?

Ahead, R258, 300 yards. He was seated, with the backpack off and on its feet, papoose style. The baby was next to him with the dog close to the baby.

R257, link to a quote of LE or the coroner making that statement pls.

The baby was out of the carrier? Sitting next to him?

The baby was in the father's lap, with the dog and the carrier on top of him.

Well, I just came here, after 862 other comments, to say that I think that it's irresponsible to bring a dog and a baby on a hike like this.

Backpack carriers have feet that flip down so it can be stood, child in it, on the trail. The baby was in the backpack, which the father was not wearing. The dog was close to the baby.

Should the father have been suffering from heat, it can make muscles difficult to move. Had he been able to, I suspect he would have taken the baby out of the backpack since that would have been cooler for her. Being encased in the nylon would be an additional layer of insulation, trapping the heat.

Thanks for sharing, R263!

[quote]Come on, [R198], it's the DL! Humour us.

She suspects it was several rounds into a game of telephone which probably started innocently enough with the original person describing normal lividity and the fact that the bodies were found separated or apart (meaning the mother wasn't in the same spot as the rest of them). As I said, too stupid to repeat.

[quote]I am intrigued though [R198] by what your acquaintance meant by the area being sketchy?

All of it — snakes and other wildlife, poison oak, rednecks, terrain, contamination from grow sites, etc.

Ya'll really can beat a dead family into the ground.

The dog was sitting up holding the baby and the dad was in the carrier.

New article that summarizes a lot of info to date

Sequence of Events

8/14/2021 – John Gerrish researches Hites Cove hike via phone app

8/15/2021 7:45 am – Witness sees Gerrish/Chung family traveling towards the trail head in their vehicle

8/16/2021 11 pm – Family friend reports family missing

8/17/2021 1:53 am – Family car located

8/17/2021 1:55 am – Search and Rescue Mission Initiated

8/17/2021 11 am – Family Located by Search and Rescue

8/19/2021 – Autopsies completed on Family and Dog- All currently pending toxicology

8/20/2021 – Search warrants issued for phone found with family

8/20/2021 – Search warrants issued for family home and cars- nothing significant located

8/23/2021 – Additional water samples collected from water sources along the trail area

8/24/2021 – Cell phone delivered to FBI for data extraction- Awaiting results

8/25/2021 – Search Warrants issued for possible social media access

[quote] Causes of Death Ruled Out: The following have been ruled out based on evidence recovered or through investigation. ALL other potential causes of death remain. Gun or any other type of weapon, Chemical hazards along the Savage Lundy trail

[quote] Entire Trail Loop is approx. 8.5 miles – 5 miles of the trail consists of a steep southern exposure path with little to no trees or shade. Spot Weather for the area indicates temperatures during 11:50 am – 5:50 pm ranged between 103-109 degrees in certain areas of the trail.

So then heat stroke was NOT ruled out? I thought some on here were stating the the autopsy results had been released and heat stroke had already been ruled out. What the hell.

Have we ruled out the old Asian tradition of leaving female babies in the wilderness to die . . . just not clearly thought out in this case?

Trolls, R272.

The "IT WAS NOT HS" trolls were rampant on the Kreycik threads too.

Him researching the trail the day before confirms they were not familiar with the terrain or how "aggressive" a hike it would be. He had previously mapped the easier trail on the other side of the loop but had not marked it completed on AllTrails so the entire trail may have been new to both. None of the loop was on her AllTrails.

"All the gear and no idear"...you only get lucky so many times.

LE needs to seize public attention when these things happen and stop slapping the label of "expert" on people disregarding the deadly dangers of heat. For people who dip out on the story it normalizes running and hiking in extreme temps, musta been some exotic cause of death instead!

They won't state a cause of death until the tox results are back, which will take several weeks for the humans, less time for the dog. There will probably be a statement made at the same time for all.

Usually the sound of hoofbeats is not a zebra. Mines and algae have been ruled out and in this case unless tox screens come back for poison, not a family annihilator this time. Just dumbasses. The trail is the most difficult in the area. What a great day to try it for the first time!

Let's bring the dog so he can suffer as his paws burn on the 109 degree trail and he cannot pant enough to cool down since there is no shade. Even if the "research" showed pre 2018 fire tree cover, they saw it when they got there. They knew, walking down a very steep trail, with switchbacks, that they would have to drag themselves back up it, unless, they could not.

This is likely to become more and more common as temps rise out West without a real public education campaign that makes it NOT cool and NOT hip and NOT insta worthy to do this shit, esp with pets and babies in tow. I would have thought the coverage of Kreycik might have had influence in the immediate area in CA but apparently not. Not sure how to get through except to make it something called out on social media. Maybe that would register?

It's funny, R275. People are so paranoid about, say, being attacked by a shark if they wade in the ocean. Yet they think nothing of traipsing into the woods, which can turn on you as fast as the ocean and its more sensationalistic denizens.

I agree, a public education campaign is crucial.

R276, yea and bears!

Nature kills, had it been flat they would have gotten to their truck and could easily have walked to their house.

I don't understand people like this who have had close calls and who do not learn from them. Inexcusable when a parent and pet owner, if you know you have that tendency, correct for it when other lives are on the line. The trope of new dads selling their motorcycle exists for a reason.

But, I strongly suspect they would not have let a dog walker or the nanny take either on that death march in the baking heat with that grueling elevation at the end to get to safety or a cell signal. So, why, in their thinking was this different? Outside the "it was something I wanted to do so I did it." Why not carry a personal locator beam as so many do esp if they hiked so often? They could certainly afford the subscription. They performed the role of doting parents and pet owners but in a real "boots on the ground" way they liked to push it a bit. Safety is at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for a reason, without it, you have nothing.

R277 and cougars! rabid raccoons! rattlesnakes, copperheads, bark scorpions, territorial possums, vindictive magpies, etc.

Why are all these guys in their 50s and 60s hiking in Death Valley in August? Any mental health pros on this thread? Older people, like babies and young children, have the hardest time with extreme heat. Would these people sit and play Russian roulette? Why do they not see their actions are even more dangerous and self destructive and likely to result in death?

The physical experience of "cooking from the inside" can't be pleasant even before a medical emergency. Why not go in March like a PP?

For a public education campaign to work, some of the whys need to be understood.

Ok, husband (carrying baby) and dog were suffering. Sat down to rest, asked the wife (fitter via yoga?) to run ahead, try to get signal. She’s frantic, heart pounding, runs up trail, out of sight of husband, collapses from heat stroke and can’t get up.

Husband waits patiently, dozes, until he too succumbs. Dog and baby dies in the meantime.

It couldn’t be aliens because even they would get heat stroke.

I think that was basically the scenario, R281.

I am guessing the guy was pretty affected or he would have taken the baby out.

Heat stroke literally makes it hard to move, not sure people can really appreciate that unless they have felt or seen it. It also affects thinking. It was impressive that Kreycik got himself under a tree, although it did not do much since the temp kept rising. When I had heatstroke I did not even get out of the sun at first. It comes on fast and thinking gets weird.

They were seen driving to the trail at 7:45 per article. It was 85F at 8AM and was 92F just one hr later! I'm sure the "feels like" temp was higher and it got hotter as the canyon absorbed and radiated back the heat. I have noped out on steep trails feeling like I did not have enough in the tank to get back up later in the day with higher heat. That was after I had had a close call with heat stroke (not hiking). What goes down has to come up, no other way out. Switchbacks make very steep trails navigable. This was no easy stroll. It was a lot to ask of a dog, even had it been cooler. Even someone who had never been hiking would have understood those basic concepts, how steep and rugged it was, felt the baking heat, seen the no trees, etc. The easier leg, known for wildflowers in spring was not far, even that would have been a better choice then 1400 - 1900 feet to climb to get back to the truck.

Sometimes when things make no sense no one was thinking at all. But, no one else went on that trail for 3 days, locals hike it in spring and fall.

[quote]what kind of dog was it? it's probably not a breed that's used to this kind of activity.

What breed of dog IS used to climbing in barren terrain and triple digit temperatures? Dingoes?

His AllTrails shows much less strenuous hikes for the most part with much smaller elevation changes. Still not sure why they did not do the easier leg that was nearby.

R294, it was not a dingo. It would have eaten that baby.

any statement from family and friends etc?

I am seriously starting to wonder if they weren't dipping into the nose candy. Serious drug use is the only explanation I can think of to explain this suicidal/homicidal death march through the bowels of hell. This was cruel and selfish of them. There should be signage posted everywhere forbidding walks/hikes with children and animals in extreme temperatures. Tragically it can not be left to parents to make simple, safe decisions about the safety of children and pets. This is just horrifying. I do not understand why these national parks allow ANYONE to hike in these extreme temperatures. People have lost their damn minds.

OK here is my heat stroke experience. When I was fourteen I was out in the summer heat riding my bicycle about two miles from home and I started feeling chilled and I heard this loud b-rang b-rang sound. I looked at my arms and they were white and I began to feel dizzy. I rode my bike down the hill but I couldn't pedal it up the hill so I dropped it by the side of the road and stumbled through the woods to my house.

When I looked in the mirror I was pale with almost a bluish tinge. I ran a cold bath and drank a huge glass of water. I soaked in the bathtub with an ice pack on my head. Then I got out of the tub, threw up a few times, drank more water and went to bed,

I slept for over 48 hours only waking up to drink water and pee. After that I had no tolerance for heat, I get pounding headaches and vomit if I exert myself in even 80 degree temps.

Years later I told my doctor about the experience and he said I was actually close to a coma or death. He said I probably fried my hypothalamus and that is why I can't tolerate overheating.

My parents generally had no clue about us and didn't notice 48 hours of sleeping.

Yes, that is exactly how it affects you. I had a heat stroke when I was 16. I live in Georgia and am acclimated to heat and humidity. We had a heat wave one summer and the temps went to 105F. Well, us being dumbass teens we decided to go to the beach. Bad idea. The water did not refresh, it was warm . I stopped sweating. I became so helpless and weak so very quickly. The thing with a heat stroke is that by the time you realize you are in trouble, you are completely paralyzed. If my friends had not been with me I would have died on that beach. Everyone just thought I was sunbathing. They packed me in ice for 15 or 20 minutes until EMT's arrived. My temp was STILL 105F when they took it after 20 minutes in ice. I also have MS and am heat sensitive from that as well as a prior heat stroke. People need to be taught that summers are NOT the same any longer with global warming. They are deadly. You can die in less than an hour. I truly fear dying this way as I live in the much miserable South. I just ordered a cooling vest. The thought of losing electricity during the summer gives me sleepless nights sometimes.

Test

R290 is a sloppy, sweaty f*g. Avoid!!!

Oh fuck off, troll @R292. That was a horrible way for those people to die. All avoidable. If people want to risk their lives that is their right I guess, but they have NO right to endanger little ones who have no say. Parents are supposed to protect their babies, not bake them alive in some dystopian hell. It must have felt like a microwave oven that day. Those poor babies. ( Baby & pet)

Baby gear for hiking addicts is a multi million dollar industry for a reason. Not strange they hiked as a family with the baby and dog but their deaths is shocking!

R248, here's a third person who died of heat stroke in Death Valley just a few weeks ago.

[quote] There was a DM article today about the first five year old to make the Appalachian Trail hike with his parents in record time. So it's apparently becoming a thing to try for these "records" with you little kids.

One time and now it’s a thing?

Oh, ffs! These little children are just props for the parents IG pictures. Sickening.

How long would it have taken them to walk the complete trail?

[Quote]There was a DM article today about the first five year old to make the Appalachian Trail hike with his parents in record time.

As I read these two threads, it was a revelation to me that parents take infants on serious hikes in the wilderness. The whole industry devoted to baby hiking gear -- astonishing. Then I thought, "Well, at least parents are not taking toddlers or young children. At least a baby in a backpack is controllable." How wrong I was. Children of a certain age get easily distracted, dart off and run away before you even notice, not to mention getting tired and cranky. A short nature walk in a known, well-travelled area? Sure. But total wilderness? What a nightmare.

Glad you are ok, R289 and R290. It also took me days to feel better, with having been iced, then hydrating, taking electrolytes, etc. I also think if people had not come along I may have died.

Can you imagine trying to treck up those extremely steep switchbacks in full sun exposure with it 109 and God only knows the feels like temp in that canyon? People don't understand you can hardly move and how fast it comes on and how you can't think straight. That trail was STEEP. If they had done the loop I would have backtracked. Downhill is a much safer last leg. A pulled muscle, sprained ankle, heat, and gravity will help pull you down. But for the heat and elevation they were fairly close to their truck and even their house. But, had to have felt like Everest.

Sometimes with a TBI (and we don't know the other illness that led her to stop working) there is similar heat intolerance but she seems to have been last on her feet.

I think once the phone data comes back there will be better understanding of route, etc. I had thought they just went down and back, if they did the whole loop that would be several hours, with additional stops for the baby perhaps.

A cooling vest is a great idea. I may get one for a relative with MS. There are portable battery fans on lanyards too that can be helpful.

I really wish the messaging would be more clear and somehow get through to people. If you are not suicidal, do not run or hike today. If you take a child or dog hiking or running today you will be reported to authorities for abuse. It needs to be CLEAR and get through the haze of schedules and self importance and the endorphin addiction of exercise + social media.

[quote]What goes down has to come up, no other way out. Switchbacks make very steep trails navigable. This was no easy stroll.

You learn that early on, if you hike a lot. There's no shame in turning back when conditions change or you run into something you haven't prepared for. There does need to be a public information campaign because here in the West summer conditions are becoming more severe.

Agree, R301. I finally started turning back occasionally after I had heat stroke (not hiking). I just don't push in the heat or with an initial downhill if I feel like I might be getting tired. I do try to plot hikes with the climbs early on. It is not perfect, Kreycik climbed early on and, as his friend so elegantly put it "cooked himself" running 6 min miles. But downhill at the end might have saved these folks.

As weather changes the messaging has to get more effective. Not just droning about heat or air quality advisories but wording them in a way that people connect to. So many dead people this summer and the numbers don't stop. It really needs to be authorities, NPS, outdoor gear companies, vets, peds, etc, with a threat of consequences. Maybe that will at least get through to parents.

I had friends who snow camped, hypothermia is no joke either. People tend to respect it more than heat for some reason.

Stay safe out there DLers. Nature is so relaxing , esp in these crazy times but err on the side of caution.

[quote]I think Germans extrapolate from their home-country experience and underestimate the distances, the heat, the level of gear/expertise needed, the frequent lack of nearby civilization in the American outdoors.

Yeah, that's the problem, America is a vast country with thousand of miles between cities sometimes. There are many places people have still never stepped food. I think it's kind of reckless not to realize that. It's not different than Americans traveling to Europe and compiling it's not like home. Do some research people, you are in another land, literally. The same rules do not apply.

[quote] What goes down has to come up

I also learned this early on when I used to ride bikes. Go upgrade first, then downgrade on the way back. It saved me from unplanned misery.

^^ never stepped foot^^

The odd part of Death Valley, it's below sea level. Apparently that's part of the reason it gets so hot.

How can you take a furry dog out on a hike in 109 degree? This alone is animal abuse and a level of stupidity that should be punishable by death.

At least with a toddler or small child, they can tell you if they feel sick etc. A 1 year old baby is too young to go on such a trip.

Parents deserved to die. Poor baby and dog no longer need to suffer....

In days of yore, the covered wagons made their way west. There was one particular wagon, and it was full of Dataloungers. Half the Oregon Trail, they talked about the old TV series Family. The other half, they talked about a possible Knots Landing reunion. And every time the wagon passed a makeshift grave on the prairie, everyone in the wagon asked:

'Could it have been heat stroke?'

Yeah, I'm only following the story on DL so I'm not going to speculate too much. But taking a dog out on a hike on a hot day was just not on. You hear admonitions to not take dogs on neighborhood walks during the day when it's scorching hot. Why would a strenuous hike make any sense? I can't believe earlier posts in the first thread about how the dog would have run off rather than die of heatstroke. Umm...you know they don't sweat right? And have fur? Dogs are likely more prone to overheating than humans. It pisses me off when I see people run with their dogs during the day when it's too damn hot.

Agree, R310. And this dog appears to have had a double coat, so it was like doing that hike in a North Face jacket. Their paws can even burn on the trail. That elevation on Google Earth was nuts, to do that climb after being in high heat possibly for hours? The poor dog, sticking close to the baby. So easily avoidable. But, can't fix stupid. She seemed to see their earlier close call as something other than a fucking WAKE UP CALL. Had to be an awful way to die and I do think she was trying to get help or at least higher to get a cell signal. Parents should carry personal locator beams if they are hikers, esp with kids in tow.

R309 wins the thread.

What's the latest? Are they still dead?

Someone commented on elsewhere that the whole area has poor cell coverage, not just that trail. They had to be aware, even more reason to have a personal locator beam. You have to plan in safety redundancies, I'm sure he did at work. There has to be a way to make people understand the real risks to them, their family, pets. It is some kind of thinking error or lack of thinking error. I'm sure they would not give algae water, even filtered to the dog or the baby but they did not see BEING ON THE TRAIL as more dangerous. Thinking errors. The older guys heading to Death Valley in August, no idea what is going on there.

Think they are still dead, R313. If not, will be an even bigger story than old mines.

Tox report on the dog should come back first, LE may just update re: everyone.

Something to keep in mind when considering that Chung went ahead to try to get cell service: the family only had one phone with them when they died, located in Gerrish’s pocket.

It’s possible that Chung left her phone in the car and walked away from the others to retrieve it, but she had no phone on her person, and would not have simply been trying to find a signal.

One report mentioned "phones" plural, so I assumed she had a phone too. I did not see any article that explicitly stated she did NOT have a phone. I think the search warrant was also for phones plural.

.....

R316, this is today’s report from the Mariposa sheriff, mentioning a singular phone. There were a number of earlier reports that the only phone was located in Gerrish’s pocket.

R316, if they were all dying, why would she have been going back to get her own phone, rather than take his phone to try and get some sort of cell signal?

I just saw that, maybe the phones plural in another article was a typo.

If she was wandering away without bringing the phone that is not uncommon behavior in someone suffering from heat which often makes little sense.

I was surprised it was not mentioned that either or both was wearing a biometric watch or ring, so common now.

Sounds like they think they may have hiked the whole 8 mile loop with the very steep 5 mile climb at the end. Still don't understand why they would go in that direction. Even if it was in and out on Savage Lundy they obviously could not make it back up the switchbacks but maybe could have gotten out going down and around. Maybe not though, even in spring people have posted about how hot the canyon gets and how much water is needed and even the easier side is pretty steep.

If it was in the 90s by 9 it had to be a feels like temp close to 100, plus poor air quality from the fires. I just don't get not turning knowing there was that very steep 5 mile climb at the end. I read an estimated hike time for the loop of 5 hours, that is w/o extreme heat or having to stop to feed, change, etc the baby.

I'm r319, I meant that for R315, not r316

It is not uncommon for people suffering from heat to do illogical things or to wander kind of aimlessly. That is one of the reasons it is so dangerous, you are not in a great position to help yourself and it keeps getting worse.

The Kreycik threads had info from his friend the lead searcher re: heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

R319/321, I don’t know. I was stating a fact, not speculating. Chung was not carrying a phone when she died.

As R320 mentions, it’s possible something led to irrational behavior, or maybe there was a problem with Gerrish’s phone.

[quote] Altered mental state or behavior. Confusion, agitation, slurred speech, irritability, delirium, seizures and coma can all result from heatstroke.

8 miles was certainly ambitious.

.....

It would be helpful to have a local familiar with the trail. I wonder if they did not intend to go on the steep Savage Lundy trail, it was the other trail he had looked up. Is it possible to make a wrong turn and thus be out far longer than intended? The one trail is @ 3.5 miles which sounds more like a short morning hike and it is rated as less difficult. That scenario makes sense. But does that fit with where the truck was parked?

I am following these threads because: 1) since i was a kid, when i engaged in sports or other heavy physical activity, my face has turned bright red upon exertion, 2) people always worried that i might be suffering from heat stroke, 3) i don't drink a lot of water in normal life but do on the trail and 4) i've hiked a lot in NorCal/SoCal/other places.

It doesn't matter how hydrated i've tried to keep myself (with a camelbak), this still happens to me as an adult. I'll get fairly bad headaches after the activity, but end up fine afterwards. I researched it and found that it could be something to do with have blood vessels close to the skin as a very fair-skinned person with freckles.

But now I wonder if i was just a half hour away from serious detriment, reading these articles.

That said, I would NEVER hike in over 90+ degree heat and ALWAYS plan my hikes with the steepest part in the beginning/coolest part of the day.

[quote]I wonder if they did not intend to go on the steep Savage Lundy trail, it was the other trail he had looked up.

I missed what he looked up. Was it Hite(s) Cove trail? If so, the trailhead is about 30 miles by car from where they parked.

If you search the coordinates 37.6063607, -119.8370832 on Google maps you can see where the truck was parked at the end of Hite Cove Rd. If you change to satellite view and zoom in, you can see the gate. The trail goes south before the switchbacks and then north to the South Fork. The river can be crossed in the summer and walking west along the northern bank would connect you with Hites Cove Trail.

Go back to where the truck was parked and then straight up on the map until you see 140 and the Merced River in Incline. Look a little to the right and you'll see Hites Mine Rd. between Yosemite Cedar Lodge and Indian Flat Campground. Follow Hites Mine Rd./Hites Cove Trail south and you'll see the switchbacks before it stops at Hite Cove and begins to follow the northern bank of the South Fork back to 140 at the Yosemite Redbud Lodge.

and put the map on satellite view you can see the gate at the end of Hite Co

Oh my god, are you suggesting they took the wrong trail.

This tech is gonna kill us all. Paper maps, people, paper maps.

Or Google at least.

Ignore that last part. My editor called in sick.

]ei think they made a huge judgment for this hikel they didn't pack appropiately. the dog was an akitia. and no functional parent thinks "let's go on high desert hike on a hot day of year with our baby?" was there baby formula/breastmilk besides the water? this sounds like a huge error in judgment.

[Quote]His AllTrails shows much less strenuous hikes for the most part with much smaller elevation changes. Still not sure why they did not do the easier leg that was nearby.

Someone, or something, lured them...

[Quote]if they were all dying, why would she have been going back to get her own phone, rather than take his phone to try and get some sort of cell signal?

She left the phone with him because he was engrossed in a DL thread about some dipshit hiker who died of heatstroke.

Articles like this said "phones" and I think many of us assumed they each had a phone, and those phones were being searched.

If they found nothing significant on the phones does that mean no one used the phone Gerrish had to try to get help?

[quote]8/15/2021 7:45 am – Witness sees the Gerrish/Chung family traveling in their vehicle toward the trailhead, down Hites Cove Road north of Jerseydale in Mariposa County.

So they did start early in the day, not in the afternoon like some had speculated. Definitely not early enough though.

This thread has activated my hypochondria and ruined my tennis and golf this week, for fear of sudden heat stroke death. And I live on the east coast.

As long as you haven't a baby and dog with you, you'll be fine.

He really needed to wash his hair before taking that photo.

R338 is the most DL comment on this thread.

I also think they maybe ended up on the wrong trail.

When I was in my 20s, I made a really poor error in judgement and nearly ended up in the same situation. My boyfriend and I rode our bikes down a long steep trail in Canyonlands, Utah. We left early in the morning and the ride down was, well as you would suspect, cool and easy coasting. When we finished, we turned around and thought OH FUCK. So stupid. Yes, we had to somehow get back up and the heat was rising fast. After about an hour, it seemed like we had made no progress at all, were running out of water and were now pushing our bikes up. We hadn't seen anyone the whole day. All of a sudden, a jeep came out of nowhere, driven by, you guessed - Germans. We flagged them down, it was too guys who seemed a little bit like they might have someone locked in the basement, but we threw ourselves upon their mercy and they loaded up our bikes and drove us out. I often wonder what would have happened to us if those Germans and their jeep hadn't come along.

*two guys - don't Oh Dear me!

R334 his phone is with the FBI. There was no cell coverage where they were found. I read that whole area of Mariposa has poor coverage. Maybe a personal locator beam would have saved them. All the gear,..as the wife wrote.

Too bad he did not go for a run and a beer with a garrulous buddy the night before so we'd know his thoughts on the trail, eh?

R331, a 1 year old would be eating food. If it drank breastmilk the milk would be in the mother, so, nothing to "find." With a baby they would have had to stop more frequently to feed her, change her and give her drinks. There is no way that that whole loop would have been a "quick" hike.

He seems to have enjoyed going on hikes in areas where there were mines, maybe that is what made this one appealing. But, wrong season. There are lots of AllTrails comments about how hot the canyon gets and to bring lots of water and those are in March, April, etc. They did not plan a hike in Death Valley with a baby and an Akita but in a sense, that is what they did.

That disconnect, obviously the heat radiating both down and up from the canyon, switchbacks signifying a strenuous climb, etc are things they would see and feel. I think the Gobi trip and Burning Man may have made them cavalier about the heat? The Death Valley dead idiots had planned a trips so followed through. These people lived almost walking distance to this trail, no need to do it that day.

What was the debilitating health condition to which the wife referred?

If only they’d brought some egg rolls and saki for their oriental journey

Speaking of having to change the baby's diaper, I hope they took that shit with them.

It's one thing to die on a track, entirely another to litter.

R344, I have not seen it named anywhere. It seems to have been separate thing than the TBI.

[Quote]What was the debilitating health condition to which the wife referred?

Idiocy.

[quote]What was the debilitating health condition to which the wife referred?

Terminal stupidity

Poor Oski.

People who would not leave their pet in a hot car need to understand the trail may be more deadly. Akitas are super furry, my guess is the dog succumbed first, the guy may have been wearing the baby and carrying the dog. Then he was overcome by heat and steepness of the trail and sat down to rest and never got back up. If he was not impaired he likely would have taken the baby out, those carriers are hot for the baby and the one wearing it. Think of a whole body windbreaker in 109 degree heat. Dogs discharge heat by panting and through paws, imagine his paws burning on that baked trail radiating heat. People need to be told it is criminal to take pets out on the trail when the feels like temp is forecast over 95.

It will be interesting to hear how much water they carried. Lots of people filter river water, although hopefully away from toxic algae, and being Burners they may have been esp into that using the resources of the land thing. Plus, carrying water is really heavy. With heat stroke, regardless of water, you will still cook from the inside. With these 2, maybe they filtered and drank algae water, they were not very grounded in common sense.

I think the baby died first.

I think it's suicide by the mountains. they went out there to die! they also had lots of drugs in their systems.

If true, R351, it seems they would have taken her out of the carrier, no?

109 temp was in the shade, I wonder if the trail became too hot for the dog to walk on? No tree cover since 2018, all exposed to the sun esp the last part at the switchbacks.

[quote] "Authorities also said they believe the family hiked more than eight miles in triple-digit heat with little to no shade from trees."

I really hope LE stops using the word "experienced" in these cases, or talking about gear. There is likely no gear that would have enabled them to be in 109+ degree temps in direct sun, except a PLB to have a helicopter lift them out. Kreycik had run a LOT but did not carry water or a phone. To normalize the fatal risks these people took in media coverage does not help prevent more and more of these tragedies.

The media uses "experienced" to stoke response.

I think they were just stupid, R352 and she though their "spirit dogs" wagging their tails would always save them from their poorly considered actions. Whatever the fuck that means. Many have posted on this thread about close calls that made them more cautious. Some people are slow learners.

The accident that caused the TBI may or may not have been another instance of recklessness, we don't know.

It was too hot for the Akita mix when they left. That alone shows disregard for the safety or comfort of a dependent when it conflicted with something they wanted to do and how they wanted to do it. Gobi and BM may have made them cavalier re: heat. She introduced the dog to hiking over time but heat and altitude did not register as risks? Very selective thinking it seems, one makes her seem like a great dog owner, the others like an adventurer.

Sad.

Another dead hiker

This is just not sufficient. They need to tell people to re-schedule not start early.

The fire department recommends that hikers take extra precautions when hiking in and around the city during high temperatures. Here are a few important tips PSFD shared for residents and visitors hiking in the heat:

Start Early. It's best to hike in the morning hours, prior to 9 a.m., when it is cooler. Hike with a Buddy. Never hike alone. It is always best to have a friend with you. Let someone know where you are going and your return time. Cover Up. Wear long sleeves to help shield your body from the sun. Wear a hat, preferably wide brimmed. Remember to apply sunscreen often, as recommended, and wear sunglasses to protect your eyes. Stay Hydrated. Pack and drink a minimum of 1 liter of water per hour and drink often! Bring nutrition/food. Bring trail mix style packs, dried fruit or veggies and energy bars, chews, or gels. Remember to rest. Take frequent breaks and find shade so your body can cool down. Know the signs of heat related emergencies. Common signs are headache, dizziness, muscle cramps, nausea, and disorientation. If you experience any of these symptoms, turn back or call for help. Don’t hesitate to call 911. Take a cell phone/GPS. Make sure they are fully charged. Other Items to bring. Bring a map, first aid kit, flashlight, and additional water/electrolytes.

They should be telling people to reschedule or FINISH by 9am.

The dead family could have followed all this fire dept advice and still died.

Personal locator beams should be promoted.

Admittedly I'm kind of couch potato but....I don't get how some people are so addicted to hiking/running/whatever that they have to go do that stuff in 110 degree weather. You couldn't take one day off?!!

There's a lot of self regard at play with these types.

[quote]The dead family could have followed all this fire dept advice and still died.

R358 I agree. The fire department advice R357 posted is insufficient for hiking in wilderness areas (beyond cell service) and areas plagued by wildfires (exposed, no shade), poor air quality and triple-digit summer temperatures.

It is a weird self regard when it becomes self destructive and life threatening, R360. So many of these stories this summer. Not all were hard core weekend athletes either.

Hiking in weather over feels like temps of XX may result in death regardless of gear. Older people, babies and young children and dogs are more at risk. THAT would be a clear message.

I remember years ago they were telling people not to go on their daily runs if the temp got to 90. Also if you had a cold that made it very risky heart-wise to run at all. Something about what a cold does to your heart.

But of course people are still out there running in weather too hot to be safe.

They're afraid they'll discourage people and that will somehow affect tourism or the adventure/hiking/running industry.

People are too stupid these days: they need black and white in front of their faces.

DO NOT HIKE ONCE TEMP HITS WHATEVER.

TRAILS ARE CLOSED ONCE TEMP HIT WHATEVER. CRIMINAL FINES AND PENALTIES WILL BE ASSESSED AND ENFORCED. EMERGENCY COSTS WILL BE ASSESSED.

PARENTS AND/OR PET OWNERS ENDANGFERING THEIR DEPENDENTS WILL BE VISITED BY CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES & ANIMAL PROTECTIVE SERVICES.

No more pussy footing around.

Even better

Hiking this Saturday or Sunday may result in death regardless of gear or water. The very young, old and dogs should not even be outside.

Link it to the day not a temp for the dumbasses in the back.

[Quote] People are too stupid these days

These people are outliers.

Agree, R365, thus the fact that not one single person used that trail for 3 days in that heat. Just these folks.

Is it arrogance? Ignorance? Hubris?

By me they have had to heli rescue people in flip flops who started up a mountain trail at 5 pm with an 8 oz bottle of water in triple digit feels like temps. There are a lot of stupid people everywhere.

Since when did babies need to go hiking - they aren't even hiking - they are being carried by their personal Sherpas. Babies need a lobbyist: Babies are Not Props. Leave Us Alone.

Get a baby pool, put in backyard (or even balcony), fill it with water, put baby in to splash around - put umbrella over to shade baby. Take baby in after 10-15 minutes. That is sufficient outdoors for a baby.

They are not the kind of people who will heed warnings from officials because they think they are better than everyone else...you know it's true.

Yes, I expect their career accomplishments fed their ego something rotten.

R363 Yes, CAPS-LOCK, red ink, locked gates, warning tape and consequences. Assume people are egocentric, drug-addled, social media-blathering thrill seekers who need to be threatened with steep fines, arrest and jail time. It's not your father's nature trail these days.

I wonder if the trail was so hot the dog had trouble walking. The rocks and dirt absorb the heat and radiate it back. I have heard there are actually boots for dogs in hot climates to go out briefly, like in snow and ice. If wearing the baby and carrying the dog that would have been a lot of demands on the guy and his energy. Even when he did not look fat, he was a big dude. Larger people have a harder time with the heat.

Thank you, r367. I don't think that anyone else in the almost 1000 other posts brought up that it's a bad idea to take a baby hiking in extreme conditions.

Hiking has gotten way more popular with cv, people want to get out. Basic info hung on access gates might save lives, along with a public ed campaign attached to weather reports (exercise or hiking outdoors today may result in death), run on radio stations, pop ups on things like Reddit and AllTrails, etc, might help a lot.

I like to hike and used to trail run and those Google Earth photos of that canyon show some really arduous terrain.

When hiking, always have a friend with you, so you can die together.

And if you should survive after your baby dies due to your criminal negligence you can kiss your privileged-ass lifestyle good-bye.

109 was measured nearby in the shade, the feels like temp had to be horrific. Where I am at the moment the temp is 94 with feels like at 107. Here the air quality is fair, there it was affected by the fires. That impacts the ability of the body to withstand heat and to climb steep trails. It is not even healthy for babies or the elderly to be breathing in all that particulate.

The trail absorbs and radiates heat, they may have had to carry the dog if it was too hot for his paws. I'm not sure the wife could carry him for long up that elevation change, he was a decent size.

What a nightmare. The thing is you have to have safety plans for if things go wrong, not if they go perfectly. Having had close calls themselves I have NO sympathy. That should have been a wakeup call that they had a tendency to bite off more than they could chew.

I do think he had to carry that poor, sweet dog. I hope he did have to. The suffering those two little ones went through is very difficult to comprehend. It seems that these privileged people to live their lives on IG and apps like All-Trails. It is like they think they are stars on a stage and they only care about how they can impress people on apps that do not even fucking know them. Each hike more dangerous than the last and family are just background players. They had a beautiful home. Deer almost at their front door. If I had a home like that I would not want to leave it. They seemed to avoid their homes. So alien to me. Well, I hope those people they compete with are really impressed. Selfish, narcissist, shallow.

yes, it's 90 today in NYC but feels like 97 coz of the humidity. I can't even imagine going hiking in this fucking heat, much less drag a baby and dog along for the torture. sick cunts.

R353 I so agree with you. Philip Kreycik was an experience trail runner. He was not experienced in common sense, weather, and heat conditions. This family seems experienced at nothing I can see other than their jobs and social media.

Living in Georgia it was such an amazing experience when I moved briefly to Santa Rosa. I was at the beach in weather that was upper 70's, BUT, no miserable, freaking humidity! I could see snowcap mountains from the warm beach. The beautiful grapevine! I may have underestimated the canyon heat had I gone hiking because the heat of SF felt like fall in Georgia, lol. It is the microwave- like heat reflecting off the granite that makes it so deadly, right? But I would have never had a child or pet with me. I would have researched everything I could find about the terrain, wildlife, water, ect. These were supposed to be smart, accomplished people. I do not understand their imbecilic decision.

This thread is filling the hole left behind by the shitty Everest season.

R381: Two years then a blah climb, lol!

[quote] It would be helpful to have a local familiar with the trail.

R326 : I found this blog/review about hiking the Savage-Lundy trail. The writer parked her car in the same place that the Gerrish family parked theirs (the first dot on the map). Notably, she comments at the end: "This hike was a good workout and I sure loved seeing this old mining country from a different perspective. It was a cooler day with a breeze, so it wasn’t too hot as we climbed out of that canyon. I would not want to do this hike on a warm day."

Another local hiker, administrator of the Mariposa Trails FB group, was asked for his insight. He wrote:

This is tragic. The sheriff is still investigating, so I don't want to speculate. That said, however, here are some general safety-related observations and guidelines:

1) I've been on Savage-Lundy trail many times since 2014 and have never seen any cause for alarm from anyone or any manmade article on or near the trail;

2) as much as I love the South Fork, even I avoid it in the summer due to heat, especially in steep terrain;

3) when I hike the Savage-Lundy Trail from Devils Gulch to the top of the hill, I usually wait until late afternoon when there is no direct sunlight on the trail, and

4) always be in the mode of situational awareness.

Thanks for the FB link. Sounds like the higher number is correct for the climb back out. Daunting even without a baby in a pack and with much slower temps, 2000 feet change in elevation is no joke.

John Shannon Heat-related death until proven otherwise. They went on a 7.7 mile day hike with a 1 year old. They may also have known of the algae issue and only took their own water. Once down at the river there is a 2,000 ft climb back up. The temps were well over 100 F. There is said to be no shade after the 2018 fire. They had little remaining water when found only halfway up the climb.

[quote]I rode my bike down the hill but I couldn't pedal it up the hill so I dropped it by the side of the road and stumbled through the woods to my house.

I'm glad you were okay R290.

Off topic question: was your bike still there 48 hours later?

So it sounds like heat stroke is physically heating up your body, similar to a fever. Would you be able to use a thermometer to measure when you're at risk of heat stroke?

It always gonna be intriguing when several hikers were found dead at the same time. Some deaths remained unsolved but I hope this one won't be, like that one I read somewhere about Dyatlov Pass.

[quote] It seems that these privileged people to live their lives on IG and apps like All-Trails

Not this shit AGAIN. I thought I had you blocked.

Melts your body from the inside out. So much enrichment of the kid yet went out in heat that risked brain damage and led to death. This kind of thinking needs to be studied so effective interventions can be implemented. Many dead due to heat this summer, these folks are unusual in that concern for the well being of baby or dog did not prevent them from being dragged along. Kreycik, the dead trail runner did a lot of really risky shit with his young kid but had left him in safety when he cooked himself. These 2, words fail.

UPDATE 8/27/2021 12:34 PM

The family were not killed bay a gas leak from a mine — nor were they killed by any kind of weapon, police have determined.

In its first update on the bizarre case in a week, Mariposa County Sheriff's Office revealed it had ruled out two causes of death — but still had not found any answers. Homicide had already been crossed off the list.

The department also provided a more detailed timeline of events leading up to the mysterious deaths; dad Jonathan Gerrish had researched the Hites Cove hike on a phone app on August 14, the day before they set out. Investigators revealed the family had completed most of the grueling 8.5-mile loop and were on their way back to their truck when they died on a steep switchback.

Gerrish was found in a seated position on the trail, with his infant daughter and eight-year-old dog next to him; Chung was discovered a little bit further up the path, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

Because of the 2018 Ferguson Fire, some five miles of the trail has little or no foliage coverage or shade, meaning the family had been exposed to between 103 to 109 degree heat during the trek.

Toxic algae still has not been ruled out; detectives are still waiting on toxicology reports back from the autopsies; a camelback of water the couple were carrying is also being tested, as are samples of water taken from the nearby creek.

Warrants for the couple's phones and social media accounts were obtained and are currently being scoured by the FBI; searches of their truck and home have turned up nothing of significance so far.

Terrifying. Your body begins to shut down one organ after the next to protect your brain from frying.

That point needs to be hammered home to parents and pet owners, R392.

The temperature they were hiking in blows my mind. Living in Australia, those temps are the norm in the peak of our summer. You get out early, get your neccessary shit done and then you stay hydrated, sheltered and as cool as possible. I would never subject my dog to that kind of hike on a day forecast to reach those temps. Truly criminal.

It's also really selfish. If they had been able to get cell signal, they're putting first responders at risk.

I have no sympathy for these adult idiots, none.

One of the rescuers on Tuesday was overcome by heat, R394.

The terrain post 2018 fire and temps are not dissimilar to Death Valley. No one would think it reasonable to take a baby and dog hiking there in August.

The Heat is On!

Always bring a parasol, is my motto.

R290, my eagle eyed neighbor lady saw the bike and put it in the back of her station wagon. She brought it to my mother. She was so worried and yet my mother never came to my room to ask why I was sleeping the days away and why my bike was by the side of the road. Eventually I told the neighbor lady what happened and I noticed she was very angry and kind of shunned my mother after that, which of course my mother never noticed.

I don’t think this is so unusual. There are always people who go hiking, fishing, camping, boating, climbing etc someplace that looks cool but do zero prep work or anticipate worst case scenarios—and end up stranded, lost or dead. Look at all the people who go missing in national parks. I’m honestly surprised this doesn’t happen more often. I think people have this idealized version of the wilderness and just set out without adequate provisions, protection, gear, etc

[quote]There are always people who go hiking, fishing, camping, boating, climbing etc someplace that looks cool but do zero prep work

R399 Which is why recreation areas need to protect the ill-prepared by closing off areas that are more treacherous at certain times of the year. People expect to be warned, which is why I think the Forest Service is partly to blame for not closing trails like Hite Cove/Savage-Lundy in the summer.

I really question whether they had taken ecstasy or shrooms and done this trip to feel "in touch with the outdoors." How else do you explain a massive lack of judgment regarding your baby, your dog and yourselves. People do this often in NorCal.

R398 Were your parents addicts/alcoholics? It's difficult to fathom that level of detachment from one's own children.

R399, my mom in Oregon always claims that inexperienced visitors to the Oregon coast are constantly having to be saved by the Coast Guard when they get stuck on rocks when high tide comes in, for example.

If this lady had a TBI she may not have been operating with a full deck when danger was concerned. I don’t understand the anger on this thread.

[quote] People expect to be warned, which is why I think the Forest Service is partly to blame.

People ignore signs all the time. Also, the forest service is way understaffed. They just can’t do it all.

[quote] If this lady had a TBI she may not have been operating with a full deck when danger was concerned. I don’t understand the anger on this thread.

It wasn’t just the “lady”.

She had a husband....without a TBI.

And they had the responsibility of a child and a dog. If she wasn’t operating with a “full deck”; likely her husband should have been.....otherwise they should not have taken on an infant and dog (on a death hike).

Occam's Razor…

[quote] Gerrish was found in a seated position on the trail, with his infant daughter and eight-year-old dog next to him; Chung was discovered a little bit further up the path, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

Father and poor old dog already collapsed, said they would sit down for a moment (possibly leaning against a tree). Wife said she'd go up for help and collapsed on her way. All died from a heatstroke exacerbated by exhaustion and severe dehydration.

Agreed r407

[quote]By me they have had to heli rescue people in flip flops who started up a mountain trail at 5 pm with an 8 oz bottle of water in triple digit feels like temps.

I don't think I've ever managed a day by the pool in flip flops without stubbing a toe or stumbling. I can't imagine the mindset of people who go mountain hiking in them.

You'd think people would take note of names like Death Valley and Devil's Gulch and realize there just might be some reason locals weren't fond of said places back in the day.

Angry = their manner of death is shocking and disturbing. People want someone or something to blame.

R325 The dog was not an Akita. It was a Golden Retriever with its fur trimmed short instead of long like most Goldens.

For a moment, when I saw "Family of Hikers," I thought that finally some family representative had commented. But no.

How many days later now and there's been no word from either family or friends about them? Is this odd?

The family probably found a suicide note.

Several friends commented in early news articles, r412.

Was heatstroke the cause of death at Dyatlov Pass?

Radioactive Yeti, r415.

[quote]the forest service is way understaffed

Yes, that's part of the problem. My point is, it's a contributor. It doesn't absolve the parents of responsibility.

I'm going to be so mad if it turns out they deliberately went on that long, difficult hike in the summer heat with a baby and a dog. The guy had gone on the trail before, at least he had it listed on his All Trails app, surely he knew how difficult it was. Even if he didn't know the trees had all burned down, surely the second they saw that, they would have been concerned.

It sounds like no one even tried to use the phone they had with them to try to get help, which is very weird.

R418 Have you read ANYthing connected with the case? There was no cell phone service down in that gulch. Nada. Zip. It's been mentioned in every article and in several comments on this thread.

I started this thread, r419.

If you're in an emergency, you try everything. That includes trying your phone even if you know there's no service. Why wouldn't you? You brought it with you, might as well try it. What would you have to lose by spending 5 seconds to try it, just in case?

I use the AllTrails app, and if the route is indicated as difficult/challenging, you best believe it.

Not only were they stupid, and selfish, they were clearly assholes and good riddance.

r422, I didn't like the dog or baby either.

[quote]I use the AllTrails app, and if the route is indicated as difficult/challenging, you best believe it.

Is there a "death" stat for each trail or do you need to be a premium user?

The dog was an Akita mix per an article. There are photos of him on the wife's Insta.

R407, the trees all burned in 2018. Those switchbacks were in direct sun.

[290] it wS 104 degrees in May in Missouri in 1967...... for days 102-104

The accident that caused the wife to have a TBI may also have had her reckless behavior as a factor, we don't know. But we know they had had close calls before and did not seem to change practices around safety then or when they had the baby.

Closing the trails and announcing same in the media likely would save lives.

LE describing these reckless dead people as "expert" just normalizes the life threatening behavior.

R411, in some photos you can see a black tongue, he was an Akita mix per articles. Both Akitas and Goldens have a double coat, this dog suffered terribly before his death. The trail may even have been too hot for him to walk on, could have burned his paws.

[quote] they both had cells, there was no coverage.

I've never been on any hike in any major mountain wilderness area in California (National or State park/forest) that has a cell signal. I've always assumed it's the same in other states, but maybe not?

The language is changing

Investigators believe the family hiked most of a grueling 8.5-mile loop including 5 miles of steep southern exposure trail with little to no trees or shade in 103 to 109 degree heat before succumbing on the return to their truck on a steep switchback. (SF Chronicles)

It appears they hiked the whole loop, so 8.5 miles with the steep 2000 foot climb at the end.

Even if it was just that adults, in 109+ degree temps they may have died. Taking the baby and older very furry dog along literally is so beyond good judgment that LE grasped and remote theories initially. Taking 1 3 L bladder of water was not even sufficient for one of the adults.

At least none of the other dead hikers this summer dragged an infant and pet along to their deaths.

That terrain is brutal and grim. The temps in the 90s by 9 am had to feel closer to 100. Yet, they continued on.

Did AllTrails make them feel compelled to "finish" the loop?

Did people who were into the scene feel tied down by a more rural life and baby and feel a need for an adrenaline kick from pushing the envelop? A faster report of them missing may not have saved them, did not save Kreycik, but the fact that staff/work did not report them missing when the nanny showed and they were not there and he did not log in for work suggests to me that they may have done other flaky things. They were not reported missing until 11pm on Monday, having left at 7:45 am Sunday. Letting people know where you are going and when you expect to be back is hiking/camping safety 101, even without heat and air quality warnings. They loved their kid and pet in their own way, but not enough to derail their own wants when it came to their safety.

A personal locator beacon could have saved their lives, it is not as though they could not afford it.

This theory has merit:

[quote] I'm guessing they expected to be able to go hiking every weekend. That was probably the main reason they relocated to this area. Well, you can't hike in this part of California in the summer, because you have to be back inside after 9am. I'm imagining they just couldn't accept that they wouldn't be able to do the activity they loved (hiking), at least locally, for several months out of the year.

The Bay Area that they moved from is much more conducive to outdoor recreation in the summer with its cooler temps.

this should be interesting. One of the psychics said they think it was something they ingested. It had to do with something the wife made but it was purely an accident. She said the wife is on the other side kicking herself because she killed her whole family.

Of course the heat played a role...but i'm sure they were on something...

It really seems that there is addictive behavior around some of these outdoor activities, esp when combined with social media esp re: people who are known socially for their "adventures."

In addition to the Insta post about a close call at altitude she has another about hiking in high heat and having issues "but it was worth it."

What was the "reward" of their planned 8.5 mile "grueling" "aggressive" hike that day? AllTrails post? Feeling like they were not like the stodgy unhip parents slowed by a baby? Feeling like they "pushed through?" Keeping up their hiking every weekend tradition no matter what?

The baby and dog likely would have enjoyed splashing in a kiddie pool in the shade around their lovely new home. Were they just that desperate to get out? Thought this was nearby even though extremely poorly considered? Even looking at the photos the terrain seems extreme. Imagine heat radiating off it and looking up at the climb. Had they backtracked to the river and stayed overnight they likely could have gotten out in the early hours on Monday. "Pushing through" as an extolled virtue does not mean that there are not better choices.

The 8.5 mile loop seems even harder to understand than down and back, but the guy liked to hike near old mines, so maybe this counted as "high interest" to him, temps and terrain be damned.

Maybe the FBI will get more data off the phone that will establish route. 8.5 miles with that heat and terrain, best case scenario, was a long time to be out in the sun. If they only had 3L of water, that is not close to enough for 1 not 4. Guess they thought basics of physiology were something they could "push through?" I would not be surprised if her poor judgment contributed to her accident and TBI when young, these people did not have good sense, over and over. Close calls should get your attention. A baby and older dog should make you more cautious. Unless you are just gonna do what you want to do when you want to do it. Wonder what the dynamics were like between the adults after the kid?

R434, did she give something to the dog too, or did he just melt?

Do you have a link?

I wonder if they knew many other parents. Some parents try to not change their lives and just fit the kid in without really factoring in her different needs. Spending time with other families with young kids can be helpful in shifting family dynamics. It is so odd to me, if it was pouring rain they would have changed their plans. But extreme heat and poor air quality did not register.

She did not post on Insta much after the baby, which I think is a good thing, but maybe she was struggling. Often people that want to study counseling have issues themselves. Prior to that she was constantly going on "adventures" and posing with young attractive people. I have relatives like this and they even get comped to make posts. But, maybe there were no shots of them at baby swim class or Gymboree b/c they were not there. A science museum is not super geared to a 1 year old.

Poor kid and dog, horrible deaths. And somehow fitting in this family that no human was holding the baby when she passed (maybe due to heat stroke, but still) she was in a nylon carrier stood on a trail.

A lot of us grew up in neglectful families and lived to tell. Sadly, this munchkin was not so lucky.

Taxpayers should force the closures of these trails in CA in extreme temps, the rescue costs alone are absurd.

"All the gear" but no personal locator beam despite being affluent. Of course THEY would never need such a thing, right?

I have had a heat related emergency, it was more unexpected than theirs, but, I get it. But I would never take chances with the lives of other beings to push it a little farther by being out when it is too hot for too long. I was near others and help and ice and air con. People are ignoring heat and air quality warnings thinking it does not apply to them. These people did this just after that Kreycik case got SO MUCH publicity in CA. The messaging needs to change to include death and brain damage and CPS and animal rescue investigations. That will not fit with their self image and thus change their behavior. Nothing else seems to.

.....

[quote] In addition, investigators said the runner seemed to have not had any water with him when he lost his life. Kelly said that this situation emphasizes the necessity of safety measures when going for an outdoor exercise.

This is messaging that kills. It needs to be, finish all outdoor exercise by 9am when there is a heat advisory. Same message Death Valley gives. Temps in Devil's Gulch were even higher than where Kreycik died.

R439 So Kreycik ran at breakneck speed 45 minutes, then jogged for a full hour after that, then walked off confusedly and collapsed. His Apple Watch shows just how much of an idiot he was.

I jogged for years but never more than 3 miles in summer heat because any more time/mileage without water is self-destructive. Also, I only ran in 100 degree temps ONCE and never again because it was horrible to even do 3 miles in it. Some runners are so obsessive that they become self-destructive in their focused pursuit of pushing physical boundaries. I was never one of those runners. Shorting your shorts because you’re running a marathon and can’t stop goes beyond extreme. These folks have a little crazy in them if they’re willing to run long enough that their body shuts down or stops working as it should.

*shitting your shorts, rather

Even with all of the media coverage of his death this family did not draw the conclusion that recreating in triple digit temps can kill.

No amount of water would have helped Kreycik, the core temp needs to be brought down. This family could have gone into the river and just avoided drinking it due to the algae. They could have stayed there where there is a little tree cover and hiked out after the sun was off the switchbacks or early the next morning. Kreycik went under a tree, of little use at that point, there were not even trees left in Devil's Gulch.

Your body literally melts, with organs shutting down and your brain overcome. Why take the risk of brain damage even if you do survive. People need to be educated on this. Kreycik was used to running in much cooler temps, he seemed to assume that the temp at the trailhead was the same as it would be up on the baking ridge. In all of these cases, the compulsion to sit to rest does not help as the temp keeps increasing.

Kreycik took risk's with his kid's safety too. Not a fan of any of these folks tbh. So caught up in their AllTrails and "adventure" rep without any seeming care for how their recklessness is going to impact others. Now his kids have no dad. Now this other family is dead, after their just turned 1 year old and furry dog suffered for HOURS.

This sounds fun

[quote] According to Kreycik’s smartwatch’s GPS data, he kicked off his run at an intense pace but slowed down to jogging after 45 minutes. The device tracked that he settled to walking after another hour and Kelly said he might be confused and strayed off from the path he intended to take. “The data shows erratic movement,” Kelly said. “It was likely a heat-related illness, based on everything we know.”

So he staggered around aimlessly for awhile before collapsing and dying.

omg how do i hide this fucking threAD? DO YOU ALL COPY AND PASTE TO POST THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER?!

R446- It's called ignore. And just FYI- You are allowed to skip on by threads that you do not like. No one is impressed with your rudeness. Ignoring you now.

IT'S NOT WORKING!

R446- Is there a map that shows where they they were found that we know is accurate? It seems to me that they may have been found closer to Devil's Gulch and the river. Do you think they meant to take Hire trail and got turned around?

Much like the dead mom did, staggering up the trail for help without taking the phone. It is common behavior to wander with heat stroke. I was surprised he made it under a tree.

Hite, not hire. @ R449

Per LE they were doing the whole loop, so were coming up from the river on Savage-Lundy trail, so steep it has switchbacks. Fully exposed to the sun. The climb up is steep for miles, cannot imagine it with a baby in a pack and likely carrying the dog at that point.

They were found coming up the switchbacks. You can see it on the AllTrails map although SL is not covered. Upthread someone linked photos from FB from after the fire that gives you a sense of how steep it is. The people on the switchbacks are tiny dots.

R452- Agree. I still think they had to be on drugs, tbh. We will never know that as I doubt it would be released to the public, even though it would make a very much needed public lession to others. On the map showing the switchbacks, there are 5 points that look triangle pointed, were they found at the top or bottom of the third switchback? Thank you for your help.

Thank you. I was posting at the same time you were and didn't see that you had already answered me. Thanks again!

Move on, gays.

Joey was certainly more talented than Connie Fucking Stevens.

it's websleuth, or wtf ever, fraus.

R457 Thanks for sharing?

[Quote] Thanks for sharing?

I was delirious when I posted that. I've been out hiking.

R457: I read your comment in the Joey Heatherton thread! How did it end up here?

R461 You are obviously having a heat stroke

[quote] So he staggered around aimlessly for awhile before collapsing and dying

You just had to post a response to that statement didn’t you, r445.

Why didn’t you add that he clutched his chest in a moment of panic while painfully dragging his limp left leg for one more torturous step.

[Quote] I read your comment in the Joey Heatherton thread! How did it end up here?

The site can be glitchy.

[R386], my eagle eyed neighbor lady saw the bike and put it in the back of her station wagon. She brought it to my mother. She was so worried and yet my mother never came to my room to ask why I was sleeping the days away and why my bike was by the side of the road. Eventually I told the neighbor lady what happened and I noticed she was very angry and kind of shunned my mother after that, which of course my mother never noticed.

R398, I’m glad you neighbor was looking out for you… and I’m glad she shunned your mother even if she didn’t notice.

[quote]The dog was an Akita mix per an article.

It's probably an Akita/Australian Shepherd mix, one of the wife's cousins tagged her on a picture of Oski

[quote]Ari’s cousin #oskipup ... #gooddog #happydog #bythepool #australianshepherd .

R449 : This map is from a SF Chronicle article.

[quote]this should be interesting. One of the psychics said they think it was something they ingested. It had to do with something the wife made but it was purely an accident. She said the wife is on the other side kicking herself because she killed her whole family.

One of the what? Are you serious?

Someone in the previous thread posted this Google Earth link, which is the area highlighted in the map. (approximately 1.5 miles from their car)

R434 That settles it then!

r434 she talks about it at 28:13

Thanks for the maps. Appreciate it. Why didn't they go the most difficult way first, then they could have gone downhill at the end of the hike, when everyone was hot and tired? It makes me wonder if they meant to take the HCT instead.

Please spare us the psychic bullshit. Regardless of how it happened, the tragic result and their history tells us that the wife and her dead husband had a history of poor judgment and dangerous risks. They were unfit to be parents. If this hike hadn't killed them, the next one would have.

r473, go on a hike!

R472: It's a canyon/river loop. Even if they'd started in the other direction, they still would have been walking *uphill* at the end of the hike, along Hites Cove Trail. It doesn't look to be as steep an ascent as that switchback, but fiddling around with that Google Earth image....a long stretch of it is completely exposed, and probably wouldn't have been much better in that heat.

The map at R467 mislabels Hites Cove OHV as Hites Cove Trail (which technically ends at Hite Cove on the river but due to the popularly of using Hites Mine Rd. to get there — the switchbacks on the map below — Hites Cove is more of a beginning than ending; then west along the northern bank and back up to 140).

As I said at R328, there are way too many places with the same name.

[quote]Hites Cove is more of a beginning than ending

Make that "Hite Cove."

The cove itself is always Hite without an "S," while the trails are Hite, Hites, or Hite's, depending on the person. It's a mess.

R474 I normally would be out hiking here in the Bay Area but it's currently 96 degrees with poor air quality due to wildfire smoke, so not today.

r473 please spare me your bullshit. Fine if you don't believe or aren't interested, how hard is it for you to just skip over? I am well aware that you have determined how they died, judged them for the kind of people they are and have condemned them. Looks like your job is finished so why are you still here?

????

Matt Damon killed them by chanting faggott at them!

fat asses!

[quote]She said the wife is on the other side kicking herself because she killed her whole family.

R479/R434 Are you fucking serious and are you helping? We don't need some idiot's empathetic fantasy about how the dead mom is facepalming on "the other side." Some of us are here because we want to know what actually happened that day and how this needless tragedy could have been avoided and saved innocent lives.

Helping? They're dead, Aunt Ida. DEAD.

r483 I didn't realize this was a "helping" thread. I thought it was a guessing thread which qualifies my remarks as much as anyone elses.

mmmmm

Most of these trail closures are due to wildfires but there should be more trail closures in summer due to heat, which is an increasing problem as annual temperatures are on the rise.

Why do we have to try and protect idiots against themselves? Young hip people aren't even getting vaccines for God's sake. Close the trail and they'll climb over the gate.

Hot hot hot

Hot hot hot!!!!

[quote]Close the trail and they'll climb over the gate.

R488 Maybe, but with the right signage they might think twice before taking a baby and a dog with them.

heat of the moment

R463 From the article, asshole:

[quote]The device tracked that he settled to walking after another hour and Kelly said he might be confused and strayed off from the path he intended to take. “The data shows erratic movement,” Kelly said. “It was likely a heat-related illness, based on everything we know.”

i.e. exactly what I said.

Thanks for that Google aerial photo. What a hideous ugly area. What kind of nature is that? Hell? Post war devastation?

They'd have been better off taking a hike through some nice small town and stopping every so often for ice cream and air conditioning. With the dog able to lap up some nice store owner's water bowl. The baby would have appreciated that as much as their insane death march.

People really have to ask why there is so much anger on this thread? They fucking killed their innocent one year old baby and their elderly dog. Via horrible and painful deaths. All because of their narcissistic derangement syndrome. That's why, idiot.

WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?? WHAT ABOUT THE BABY?!

Baby gear has to be sold with a warning, not recommend for use exceeding 80 degrees as a gentle reminder to new parents.

This is not necessarily a common sense issue, it's an education concern that can save lives and resources.

i still maintain that they were high on shrooms or xtc. i can't understand why anyone would embark on this horrific trail with a baby and a dog in such hot temps.

Agree, R497. Except if it was a combo of narcissism and social media and exercise addiction. It was in the 90s by an hour after they started with a feels like temp way higher. There was a heat and an air quality advisory. The brutal terrain and heat would have been apparent as soon as they got out of the truck. Why KEEP going around the whole loop? The river is full of algae and dead fish, the canyon is the stuff of nightmares, which part of this was supposed to be nice for the baby or dog? Burning the pads of his paws on the trail, gasping as he could not discharge heat with a double coat as the air temp climbed to 109? Which part was nice for the baby? Dying without even being held? Unsafe behavior makes no sense. These Death Valley conditions were all over the media due to the trail runner cooking himself on the trail. "We go every weekend" - was that the reason? That Google Earth link is the stuff of nightmares. Can you imagine dying and having to climb up those switchbacks in direct sun? WHY didn't they go back down to the river and cool off, being careful not to drink the water? Why didn't they rest in the only place there was any shade, gross and smelly as it may have been and wait for the sun to shift off that horrible trail? Devil's Gulch fits. These names that reference evil and death, people should get a flipping clue.

Baby carriers should come with a warning. Use in temps over 90 degrees risks brain damage and death. Gotta get their attention, which is tough with the level of self regard. People on another board are all, "it's a MYSTERY" no, not really. She posted about several close calls on her Insta and seemed almost proud of them.

What was that dog, 45-50 lbs? Can you imagine carrying it up 2000 feet of elevation?

X would make them dehydrate even faster.

Can you imagine what a nice outing it was to cross the river full of algae and dead fish?

Maybe they didn't post photos of all of their "adventures" with the baby because they knew they were taking risks.

Such assholes. The wife was such a poseur and the guy had be an arrogant jerk or a complete pussy to embark on this. There are comments on the easier part of the trail, the one listed on AllTrails that talk about the heat, in the SPRING, the need for a LOT of water and the steep trail. Was seeing a mine really worth 4 lives?

[quote]Why KEEP going around the whole loop?

Because they had to impress all the other attention whores on their AllTrails app.

They'd already done the trail years ago, so I can't imagine that they were doing it just to impress people on AllTrails.

The recent trails they'd done were shorter and easier hikes so I don't think there was any kind of competition going on with them.

[quote] She posted about several close calls on her Insta

I thought it was just one. Now it was several?

R457 is suffering from heat stroke induced confusion

Jesus Christ. I was a kid in the Sierra Nevada. It’s not all that. We had an old gold mine on our land. A lot of trees and a flooded hole in ground. It’s nothing worth dying for. This is just so ridiculous and sad.

[quote]This is just so ridiculous and sad.

Right? That kid will never grow up.

[quote]The largest percentage of deaths for years have been consistently attributable to three things: lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and poor judgment. In fact, deaths related to lack of knowledge and experience by far outnumber deaths attributed to falls.

R502 there was one about altitude and another about heat, could be more, I just skimmed a few posts.

i'll bet they had drugs in their systems, but i bet it isn't reported. they were tripping. it raises the body temp.

I find it heartbreaking that no one was holding her, R505. Those packs are hot for the kid and the adult both. I can see that they may not have been able to hold her due to heat stroke but to die without even human touch for a baby who just turned one is especially sad. Stood on the trail in the GD carrier. Oski stuck close to her.

Elsewhere, a hiker in CA reported a trail so hot his shoes started to melt. Fun times!

Great post, R506.

The fact that no one else was on the trail was a clue to them. Along with baking heat. That baby and dog must have really suffered in their last hours. Fuck the arrogant parents who thought they were so special that the laws of biology did not apply to them. Humans and dogs cannot tolerate extreme temps.

it's horrific to think about it. poor babes! i dont even care about the parents, Assholes!

R505 "Right? That kid will never grow up."

What a profound statement

Jon had joined the Mariposa Trails FB group. Here is what it says about Savage-Lundy

[quote] The elevation change is steep; best to avoid the hot mid-day while climbing out of the canyon.

Savage-Lundy Trail description This is a great foot trail with extensive vistas of Devil's Gulch and the South Fork Merced River drainages, especially after the 2018 Ferguson Fire striped the entire hillside of vegetation, making an incredibly stark landscape. In 2021, however, the vegetation came back- and then some, with chaparral growing extensively on the trail. Unless removed, this vegetation will completely impede travel by 2022.. The elevation change is steep; best to avoid the hot mid-day while climbing out of the canyon. In April 2021, the trail washout at the bottom was repaired, but the tread is very narrow. This trail needs immediate work. Contact Mariposa Trails if you'd like to help restore this trail.

[quote] Authorities believe the family left for their hike during an extreme heat day with temperatures between 103 and 109 degrees in the afternoon, under smoky conditions caused by another historic wildfire season. The 2018 Ferguson Fire burned down much of the vegetation along the trail, eliminating most shade along the grueling, 8.5-mile steep loop.

paywalled r514

I can't copy/paste on this device, can someone else for R515? There are good comments there too.

Here you go…

The temperature reached 109 degrees, investigators believe, when Jonathan Gerrish and his wife Ellen Chung hiked with their 1-year-old baby and dog earlier this month along a remote Mariposa County trail.

It was as hot as 106 on July 10 when ultrarunner Philip Kreycik went for a jog in the Pleasanton Ridge Regional Park.

The thermometer hit 108 on Aug. 18 along the Golden Canyon Trail in Death Valley National Park when 60-year-old San Francisco resident Lawrence Stanback braved the heat for a hike to the Red Cathedral.

None of them survived their adventures. Investigators believe heat played or may have played a role in their deaths.

As temperatures continue to rise in California and elsewhere due to climate change, state scientists warn that there will only be more opportunities for heat-related illness or death while residents enjoy the outdoors. The dangers will only increase.

“Everyone is high risk when it’s so hot outside,” said Rupa Basu, the chief air and climate epidemiologist with California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment.

Two years ago, Basu and her team published the Climate Change Indicators Report which, among other findings, determined that the risk of death increased with warming average temperatures. The warning stressed that certain groups — such as the elderly, young children, those with pre-existing health conditions and the economically disadvantaged — were at higher risk.

“Those engaged in vigorous physical activity outdoors ... are also at greater risk,” the study found.

Since 1950, extreme heat days between April and October in California have increased at a rate of about one extreme heat day per year, the study found. That rate has hastened in the past 30 years. On extreme heat days, temperatures are at or above the highest two percent of historical daily highs, while on extreme heat nights, they are at or above the highest two percent of historical daily lows.

Extreme heat nights, which have increased even faster than days, can make it harder for people to cool down during hot weather, the researchers said. That can affect higher risk people including the elderly.

“Over the last 20 years, every year is hotter than the last, more or less,” Basu said. “That’s part of the reason from a health standpoint why we need to be proactive because it’s changing so quickly.”

Heat causes more reported deaths annually on average in the United States than any other weather hazard, according to the report. And that’s despite heat illness and death being “severely underreported,” Basu said.

In 2006, a heat wave in California led to at least 140 deaths between July 15 and Aug. 1, more than 1,100 hospitalizations and about 16,000 emergency room visits.

Earlier this month, Stanback died a little more than a mile from the Death Valley National Park trailhead, which has a large warning sign saying, “Stop — Extreme Heat Danger — Walking after 10 a.m. not recommended.”

Nine of Death Valley’s 10 hottest summers have been recorded in the past 15 years, said park spokeswoman Abby Wines. Typically, she said, the park has one heat-related death every year or two, but it has seen three so far this summer.

“This particular summer has been really bad,” Wines said. “But the vast majority of our heat issues are not on the highest days.”

That’s because when the thermometer hits 130 degrees, like it did earlier this summer, visitors step out of their cars and immediately jump back in.

What also complicates matters are California’s microclimates, Basu said. The thermometer jumped from a high of 64 degrees in Berkeley on July 10 up to 106 when Kreycik decided to go for a jog 30 miles away in Pleasanton.

Despite his experience as a distance runner, GPS data from his smartphone indicate Kreycik experienced trouble after five miles, likely due to heat exposure, an Alameda County sheriff’s office spokesman said. He was found weeks later under a tree.

Investigators are still waiting for autopsies to come back with toxicology reports for the young and fit Mariposa family to determine what killed them and their dog. But they are already suspecting an amalgam of climate change impacts could have played a role.

Authorities believe the family left for their hike during an extreme heat day with temperatures between 103 and 109 degrees in the afternoon, under smoky conditions caused by another historic wildfire season. The 2018 Ferguson Fire burned down much of the vegetation along the trail, eliminating most shade along the grueling, 8.5-mile steep loop.

Detectives also have raised concerns that the family could have come in contact with toxic bacteria in the waterways along the hike.

Such freshwater blooms have taken hold in recent years, said University of Southern California biological sciences Professor David Caron. Climate change, particularly drought and hotter water, exacerbates such toxic blooms, he said.

When heat is dangerous

Extreme heat is becoming more common with climate change, and with it the danger of heat exhaustion. Here are the facts:

What is heat exhaustion?

A condition resulting from your body overheating, which can result in death. In hot weather, your body cools itself by sweating. The evaporation regulates your body temperature, but it's harder for your body to regulate in hot weather during physical exertion.

Heatstroke, the most serious and life-threatening heat-illness condition, occurs when your core body temperature reaches 104 degrees.

What are symptoms of heat exhaustion?

Cool, moist skin with goose bumps in the heat, heavy sweating, faintness, dizziness, fatigue, weak and rapid pulse, low blood pressure when standing, muscle cramps and nausea.

What to do if experiencing heat exhaustion?

Stop activity and rest, move to cooler area, drink cool water or sports drinks, contact a doctor if symptoms don't improve within an hour or if you're with someone who becomes confused, agitated, loses consciousness or is unable to drink.

Ways to prevent heat illness

Drink plenty of fluids, wear loose, lightweight clothing, protect against sunburn, avoid exertion during hottest times of the day, get acclimated and be cautious if you're at increased risk

Source: Mayo Clinic

“Freshwater is a little more of the Wild West,” Caron said. “This is something that’s come onto our radar in the last five, six, seven years.”

The bacteria can create toxins that can kill humans and animals. The U.S. Forest Service placed signage at the trailheads, warning hikers, among other things, not to drink the water or eat shellfish.

In addition to more extreme conditions, there are just more people out in the heat. The public is visiting national and regional parks in record numbers as they look for outdoor recreation amid a pandemic. From 2014 to 2016, the National Park system saw 16 heat-related deaths.

Basu, whose group plans to release an updated climate report later this year, said society should be proactive ahead of the new dangers. Perhaps closing down trails when temperatures surpass certain thresholds or increasing public education, she said.

“Communities with such measures will be better able to protect against heat-related illnesses and deaths as California continues to warm,” the study found.

It’s similar to when you see guys who are obviously out of shape jogging in the middle of the afternoon un the summer without a shirt. You can tell they decided to take up running on start exercising again and think doing it in extreme heat is somehow going to help them lose weight or get in shape faster. Stupid.

‘or.

These two parents seemed like text-book cases of narcissism. I stuck with this thread to read new facts about this case, but we have heard nothing new. There are people like them everywhere too, still. I have always been fairly empathetic to the needs of children and animals. The more I read about these two, the angrier I get. They were just awful parents.

Oh, bullshit R523. You’ve projected an imagined personality disorder onto a scant couple of facts.

R523 There's nothing Mary! about your post

For the people insisting the couple had drugs in their system but are limiting this to illicit/illegal drugs… prescription psych meds can cause heat sensitivity.

I am not agreeing with your assessment, I’m just sharing this information because your speculation has been exclusively about illegal drugs.

I started having heat related issues last summer: medications I have been taking for years suddenly started having a different effect on me, my doctor thinks it may be due to a change in manufacturer (caused by Covid related supply chain & regulatory issues). Despite drinking plenty of water and wearing a cap I have suffered from heat exhaustion a few times this summer (and last summer), even when I’m only outside for a relatively short period of time, it’s incredibly frustrating (it’s the humidity that gets me) and I hope this is resolved soon.

Again, this is just an FYI.

And here is information about Covid related supply chain issues

[quote][bold]THE PANDEMIC AND THE SUPPLY CHAIN:[/bold] Addressing Gaps in Pharmaceutical Production and Distribution

Link for R527 ^

Climate change has made it hotter.

But the dead people put themselves in the deadly heat.

Sunk cost fallacy. I think they could’ve gotten partway through the hike, started to get uncomfortable but decided it was better/easier/safer to push on than retrace their steps. Psychologically it can be very difficult to make that decision and then your situation gets worse but now it’s too late.

[quote] These two parents seemed like text-book cases of narcissism.

Hard to say from an armchair perspective. Yet, there must have been levels of delusion leading to the preventable deaths of four individuals in 109F heat.

This is on top of the wife’s own statements of prior unnecessary risk-taking behaviour on the part of the couple. Seems they learned nothing from their dicey adventures....which led to their actions resulting in the (likely uncomfortable?) demise of their infant and canine companion.

This seems to be the lesson they drew from prior close calls which lead to the deaths of innocents.

[quote] But we made it back in one piece- with greater strength and accomplishment.

Prescription meds can make you heat intolerant but illicit drugs can make the heat/cold more bearable, in my experience. Still can’t imagine wanting to trip balls in such a landscape

People known for their "adventures" are not necessarily parent material.

What in the hellscape of Devil's Gulch was "worth it?" Living almost walking distance to the trailhead, why not hike the trail in the fall, or spring when there were wildflowers?

They are lauded as "experts" but if you look at photos he is often wearing Converse and she is in fashion boots. Poseurs.

Dumbasses.

Wonder how much water they had for the baby and dog, they can't bite down to drink from a Camelback.

The needs of a baby and older dog might have seemed a drag on their #jellonadventurs or they just did not register?

Impermanence

They arrived at the trail at 7:45 am with a baby and a dog - I doubt they were high on illicit drugs. The baby was just 12 months old so possibly still breastfeeding - but mom would would need good hydration for that. Sounds to me like they underestimated the effects of the heat and length and steepness of the trail, and overestimated their own abilities. Poor judgment in an environment with no room for error and little chance of rescue = dead family.

“The autopsy findings of heat stroke may be minimal and are non-specific, particularly if the survival interval is short" When heat stroke is listed as an official cause of death, it's usually after all other possibilities are eliminated.

Stories and warnings need to state: If you survive, brain damage is likely. That may get through to the narc self regard.

How would they spin the dead dog and brain damaged baby on #jellonadventures after all?

The names of these places - Devil's Gulch, DEATH VALLEY, are a clue to all but those with heads so far up asses, R539. NO ONE being on that trail was also a clue.

I am interested to see what they were doing all day if the phone GPS data is released. Poking arounds looking at mines? Any adult man who goes by a diminutive nickname "Jonny" at 45 seems to have this Peter Pan thing going on IME.

They THOUGHT they wanted a slow paced life but managed to end 4. #jellonadventures

Those names are attractive to such people. These folks had big egos.

Down and back seemed insane enough but the whole 8.5 mile loop and crossing the river full of algae and dead fish? No tree cover for all those hours? He was on the Mariposa Trails FB so had accurate info re: heat, steepness of trail, rugged conditions. Fuck these people.

[quote] “Everyone is high risk when it’s so hot outside."

But, but, but, rules don't apply to me! I am EXCEPTIONAL!

Narcissists tend to be both risk takers and heavy users of social media

People need to call this stuff out, you may save a life. Kreycik's friend marveling at his derring-do on steep trails with poor footing and a jogging stroller was contributing to behavior that risked the life of a toddler. Normalizing any of this encourages putting the lives of innocents at risk.

Bet Jonny Gerrish would not have wanted to risk his OWN brain damage if it had been communicated bluntly as a real possibility. Gotta use their own self regard to speak language these types understand. THIS poor kid, not only was dad a risk taking loon, so was MOM. At least Kreycik married a woman who was cautious and had appropriate concern. He only took himself out.

"Loved their child" = killed their child and dog in service of nothing more than own narcissism

Media should use that word not "mysterious"

LE does not see this scenario often = these parents were incredibly reckless with well being of baby and dog, even by CA standards

This wouldn't have happened if they had been at home smoking weed like normal people.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

I hate this whole *Look at ME* culture. Maybe it started back in the 70's with Madonna and her vogue-ing. These people who challenge themselves to the nth degree while taking a selfie to show their friends and followers feeds the ego. I think of the folks 150 years ago hiking over the Sierras toward maybe a better life. Wait- let me take a selfie of me fixing this broken axle on Donner Pass. Or, here's the gang on Zoom after finishing our grueling 5 month walk to Placerville, ran out of water a week ago, but yep we're still here! Made it! Ridiculous.

#instagram #hikinglife #proudmom #deadmom #prouddad #babykill #oopsiedog #teamdehydration #influencer

#cookingfromtheinsideout

On other boards people are really turning themselves inside out to make this not seem like negligent homicide. Despite LE reporting them believed they did the 8.5 mile loop with the steep exposed 5 mile climb at the end, they want it to be a "quick trip that went wrong." Despite LE stating that the small amount of water remaining in the CB was being tested they want there to be bottles of water for the baby and dog that fell off a cliff. Denial ain't just a river...

they believed

R552 Exactly, The DM article and all the other sympathetic blather is designed to make it look all 'mysterious' like some freak cloud of toxin killed them when it was their own criminal negligence.

This thread is loading slow and slouggish, I'm ready for Part 3

[Quote] they want there to be bottles of water for the baby and dog that fell off a cliff. Denial ain't just a river...

That makes me think of the Naya Rivera loons.

It would almost make more sense IF it had been a suicide pact, the arrogance that they were above the laws of nature is jaw dropping. What a horrible last day of life for that dog and baby. Neither held as they died because the responsible adults got themselves into a state where they were not physically capable.

On another board people want to think the father sat to "create shade" for the dog and baby and that the mother was going for help or to try to get cell service. He sat because the trail was likely too hot to lay on. He sat because when you have heat stroke your muscles won't hold you up. She could not have been going to call for help because she did not have a phone with her, she left it with Jonny. All of the behavior of the adults was typical of those suffering from heat stroke. Maybe we should start calling it heat DEATH. Not sure how to pierce the bubble of "specialness." A SIXTY YEAR old hiking in Death Valley alone in August? Come ON!

I don't see where you see they were heavy social media users. The wife's last posts on Instagram were January 2021, August 2020, March 2020, and October 2019. Five posts in almost two years. No links to her husband's accounts or other social media.

Were any of her posts deleted?

The wife had more than one insta account, they also had AllTrails, etc.

No wonder their families are quiet; there's no good way to spin this, even if the toxicology reports come out clean. Regardless, the public deserves to know what happened to cause deaths on those Sierra National Forest hiking trails.

Okay, it's been posted several times, I finally looked at their Instagram, but it feels ghoulish. They were a good-looking couple, and don't make the impression of being IG show-offs (very few posts); just the typical showing of the highlights, the best parts of one's life (and they sure did have a lot of dazzling travels).

Someone posted a hiking blogger earlier, who summed it up perfectly: hiking deaths are mostly connected to lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and poor judgment. In their case, most likely the latter. Sure they were good life hipsters, but that's not what got them all killed. It was their poor judgment, just like Philip K and the recent deaths in Death Valley.

No one has elaborated about the wife's debilitating health condition.

She said it caused her to quit working, did not elaborate. It was separate from the TBI she got due to an accident, that was when she was college age.

Seems fitting that she was studying to be a marriage and family therapist, the ones I know IRL are batshit. If you knew the details of their lives and families you would not take their advice for free, never mind pay for it.

They killed the baby, the dog and themselves. In a summer of far too many avoidable heat deaths, they managed to excel, no one else took innocents out with them. Risk taking behavior is supposed to be someone one grows out of well before age 45. Or 60 in the case of the dumbass who melted from within in Death Valley in August.

oh please, like they are gonna post and tell the world the do drugs on social media!

r561- The family has been advised to stay silent until they can figure out who to blame/sue.

New thread

Can't we all just agree to stop posting repetitive, trite bullshit and wait for actual news?

Thank you for that life changing contribution to the thread, R568. You are an example to us all!

Yesterday, the Sierra National Forest closed a large portion of the South Fork trail system (including Savage-Lundy & Hite Cove), as well as a number of picnic & campground sites, until late September.

.....

Here are some highlights:

The medical term for excessive body heat is hyperthermia. The first phase is heat exhaustion, a condition marked by heavy sweat, nausea, vomiting and even fainting. The pulse races, and the skin goes clammy. Muscle cramping can be an early sign of heat exhaustion. Heat exhaustion can be reversed by moving to a cool location, loosening clothing and applying cool, wet washcloths to the body. But when people with heat exhaustion can't find relief, they can quickly advance to heat stroke. This condition happens when a person's core body temperature rises above 104 degrees F (40 degrees C).

In heat stroke, sweating stops and the skin becomes dry and flushed. The pulse is rapid. The person becomes delirious and may pass out. When trying to compensate for extreme heat, the body dilates the blood vessels in the skin in an attempt to cool the blood. To do this, the body has to constrict the blood vessels in the gut. The reduced blood flow to the gut increases the permeability between the cells that normally keep gut contents in, and toxins can leak into the blood, according to a book chapter in the textbook Wilderness Medicine (Mosby, 2011). These leaky toxins trigger a massive inflammatory response in the body, so massive that the attempt to fight off the toxins damages the body's own tissues and organs. It can be hard to tell what damage is caused directly by heat and what is caused by the secondary effects of toxins, according to Wilderness Medicine. Muscle cells break down, spilling their contents into the bloodstream and overloading the kidneys, which in turn start to fail, a condition called rhabdomyolysis. Proteins in the spleen start to clump as a direct result of heat; they're essentially cooked. The blood-brain barrier that normally keeps pathogens out of the brain becomes more permeable, allowing dangerous substances into the brain. Autopsies of people killed by heat stroke often reveal microhemorrhages (tiny strokes) and swelling, and 30 percent of heat stroke survivors experience permanent damage in brain function, according to Wilderness Medicine. Part of the insidiousness of heat-related deaths is how quickly they can happen. As many as 10 percent of people who experience heat stroke die, according to the American Association of Family Physicians (AAFP). Heat exhaustion requires immediate medical treatment and rapid cooling. In the case of a hiker on a trail, there may not be time to get to a spot that's cool enough to reverse the damage.

As per the CDC: Heat stroke occurs when the body’s temperature rises rapidly, the sweating mechanism fails, and the body is unable to cool down. When heat stroke occurs, the body temperature can rise to 106°F or higher within 10 to 15 minutes. Symptoms of heat stroke include: Confusion, altered mental status, slurred speech; Loss of consciousness (coma); Hot, dry skin or profuse sweating; Seizures; Very high body temperature. It is fatal if treatment is delayed.

Per CDC

[quote] Heat stroke is the most serious heat-related illness. It occurs when the body becomes unable to control its temperature: the body’s temperature rises rapidly, the sweating mechanism fails, and the body is unable to cool down. When heat stroke occurs, the body temperature can rise to 106°F or higher within 10 to 15 minutes. Heat stroke can cause death or permanent disability if emergency treatment is not given.

This, with BRAIN DAMAGE inserted, should be posted at trailheads, also "NO GEAR OR WATER OF FITNESS level will prevent heat stroke with expected temps and weather conditions today. This should also be announced on the weather and on apps referring to that day. Maybe that would register with people.

New thread

This one is not finished, R575.

ya'll are ocd 'tards!

Per the Trails FB page they are gonna save dumbasses from themselves.

They are closing the Hite Cove Savage Lundy area and many other areas... “due to unknown hazards found in and near the Savage Lundy Trail.” This order will be effective from August 29, 2021, through September 26, 2021.

Announcement from Forest Service

R558 If you were younger, you’d know that poseurs like echungster don’t post “permanent” posts on IG anymore. They are addicted to IG Stories which disappear after a day. People like her will post multiple (like a dozen or more) stupid, inane “stories” at a time everyday, showing what they did, what they wore, what they ate and some new age gobbledygook par for course. So if you look at her account, the average eldergay would think she barely posted in the last year. The reality would be way different.

Thanks, R570 & R579 Finally, the Forest Service is taking some preventative action. Sadly, too late for the dead family.

[quote] A factor that isn't mentioned is "arrogance". Many people think they can outmaneuver nature, when nature ALWAYS has the upper hand.

Lots of people are learning that the hard way this summer. But despite all the stories people keep thinking they are somehow different.

From her Instagram account - I don't think that's her husband, but he's hot, whoever he is. Nice furry belly!

It’s just common sense.

Seems to be the husband's predecessor, R583. He seems into the Insta/influencer vibe she enjoyed.

[quote]Many people think they can outmaneuver nature, when nature ALWAYS has the upper hand.

Conditions can change quickly at those altitudes. One year we were backpacking near Yosemite in April and within a couple of hours on granite switchbacks it was alternately sunny, cloudy, windy, rainy, and then we got pummeled with hail and had to take cover until it passed. We were constantly packing and unpacking rain ponchos and changing shirts. It's unpredictable and you never know how long you'll be delayed.

There was a heat emergency alert and a poor air quality warning, so not unexpected, R586. See your point in general, hail sucks.

God, the Insta/burning man/narcissism troll is tiresome. Can you just fuck off, please?

I'm the guy who got heat stroke after only 45 minutes on a roof terrace in southern Spain. I can tell you the feeling from the ice water poured over my head and body over and over is the greatest sensation I've known.

Thought I blocked you, R588, fixed now.

I hear there is a great trail in Mariposa that you may like...

He was one of those insufferable Brits who wears short sleeves in the snow. Look at me, look at MEEEEEEEEEEEE! Murderous twat.

I am not buying the heat stroke theory. People just dont drop dead all at the same time. Heat affects people differently. Even if one of them started acting delirious, the other one would have been trying to reach 911 even if the reception was out. In an emergency like that, people try desperate things. No trace of either of them doing that.

Oh god let's close this thread out.

Part 3

We keep hearing about how they didn't have enough water. All the water in the world wouldn't have saved them at that point. They were baked. Literally and possibly figuratively. Looking forward to the toxicology report.

Closing

this

thread

out now

Part 3

Heat Stroke!