Breaking News in JonBenet Ramsey Case

Was he a member of a Foreign Faction?

A small, foreign faction.

Did Patsy stuff pineapple up her pussy?

“This could be the breakthrough everyone has been waiting for during the past 24 years..."

Sure, Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder, CO

For real, now. The parents did it, no?

And how would that explain the ridiculous ransom note - in Patsy's handwriting, with a notepad and pen belonging to her which was put away afterwards?

r7, that was just one of Patsy's typical wacky stunts to put everyone off the scent. She loved pulling pranks like that just for shits and giggles.

R7 😭

snore. amateur sleuths be podcasting

Is there anything actually to this?

The chance that it was an outsider is so astronomically unlikely, I can't believe they're still wasting resources on this case. It wasn't just the 3 pg note (with familar writing, phrases, with their items, knowing johns exact bonus amount, placed in an odd spot...), but everything with this case -- no disturbed dust on broken basement window, John running immediately to the body (destroying evidence by picking her up), her clothes being changed, her being wrapped up ceremoniously, the penetration using their paintbrush, Patsy wearing her clothing from night before, John's supposed mysterious last minute business meeting when they were planning on flying to visit family, the general oddness of the family, etc.

Why would an outsider leave her body there too? If it was a kidnaping gone wrong, they'd take the body still -- and if it was just your typical sicko sex abuser, why the 3 pg note? Why no further evidence of sexual assault? They went that far, but didn't do more to her? (I know that's sick to think about, but I'm looking at it logically.)

I don't think we'll know if it was an altercation with the brother, or one of them diddling her and it escalated, but it's amazing it's still being debated as if someone outside the family did this. I put this case in the same category as OJ. It'd be nice if we found out exactly what happened, especially if it was dad, but they made that impossible from the beginning.

The first crime was naming the child 'Jon-Benet'. That pretentious moniker is child abuse. What would be her nickname- Jon?

She's better off dead.

R12, Just going to see the actual house when I was in Boulder cemented whoever did it lived in the house.

I suspect either the mother or the brother.

[quote] And how would that explain the ridiculous ransom note - in Patsy's handwriting, with a notepad and pen belonging to her which was put away afterwards?

Did they ever prove it was Patsy's handwriting? i thought the deal was they weren't sure.

👽 The Truth IS Out There

The pic of that child in the red, white, and blue outfit is just sad.

What kind of parent(s) pimps out their kid like that?

I don’t understand why people find this case so perplexing. Obviously, a small foreign faction invaded the home in an attempt to kidnap the poor child, who then sadly passed away while the kidnappers were looking for Mrs P Ramsey’s stationery in order to write out a short biography and ransom note. And after writing the note, the kidnappers forgot to pick up the child in their haste to depart. It’s the only rational explanation.

On one of the other Jon-Benet threads someone laid out a convincing argument that it was the father.

R15 Now why don’t you suspect the father?

This actually gives me hope that I'll also find the real killer soon.

I think it was the son that killed her accidentally with the flashlight then the parent's united to cover it up. The explains a lot of how the investigation was hampered and why nobody cracked and told the truth. Parents would do anything to protect their kid and the family reputation.

They were really stupid with the ransom note. The fucking mother wrote it. A man would not write such a lengthy letter. Plus that fucking figure amount was the exact amount of the father's bonus. Gotta be that dumb cunt.

You amateur sleuths couldn't even tamp Sherlock's pipe correctly. The ex-FBI guy (I can't be bothered to google this stuff for you) succinctly explained what happened and pointed to the possible 'kidnapper' who killed. The parents did not kill their own daughter--nothing in their lives gave any indication. When there is a family member who kills, there are many warning signs. For g's sake, even watching Dateline would tell you that.

R20, that was likely moi. Read this.

Then this.

And then this....

Someone was fucking the daughter...guess who?!

Radar Online is run by The National Enquirer, dear.

That blogger is actually very brilliant because he lays out logically why it could only be John, first just based on the facts alone. Patsy called police. If they had killed her together, they would not have called the police until the body was first removed. Think about that — why would Patsy call the police if she herself killed her or participated in her killing? John found the body.

The police were told by John upon arrival that he had already checked all the windows and doors and they were all secured. The broken basement window had zero grime disturbed and there was even a huge cobweb in it. John went to the basement more than once that morning, and he disappeared for over an hour. The cops immediately checked the perimeter upon their first arrival around the house and saw no evidence of entry.

All of these facts eliminate Patsy. And BTW, the autopsy report specified that there were abrasions in her vaginal wall in the exact spot that a right-handed person using their index finger. The autopsy makes clear that JB had healing abrasions that were several weeks old. In child killings, I believe the data is that 11 out of 12 times it is the eldest male in the house who is the perpetrator. John not only contaminated the body, he called his lawyer and booked a flight I believe in mere minutes of her body being found, he wanted to go straight to the airport Why?

The police had to tell him he could not leave. Early in the day, the sole police officer instructed John to search the house she stated, “I want you and Fleet to start from the top of the house searching again, and work your way down.” John instead bolted into the basement. Fleet followed and said that when John found the body the light switch wasn’t on in the cellar — making it impossible to see a figure in the pitch black. But John stood in the doorway and screamed.

John hired the high priced legal power house team immediately. It was John’s team, HIS team, that put out a statement that the experts had “ruled” out John as the possible ransom note writer — in less than a week. So John barreled out of the gate with an aggressive PR strategy to get crossed off the list. And incredibly, the police allowed him to publicly rule himself out — though he couldn’t be bothered to get his wife ruled out. John accused scores of people over the years, people who were his best friends, anytime they focus went back to him,

John keeps Lin Wood on retainer — Lin Wood is one of the most powerful, successful, evil, dangerous lawyers in America. Every single thing points to John, and people cannot believe a man would write that way. That’s ridiculous and just a weird gender bias. If you read the note, notice how it starts out very formal and distant but by the end, the note has shifted like John is playacting with himself.

John planned to get Patsy to fly out ahead of him so he could move the body. But Patsy screwed that up when she called police, there are two television interviews where she discussed the chaos that morning. In the first interview, she says John didn’t want her to call. The second time she changes that story and says it was John’s idea to call. The handwriting matching Patsy is only a theory and it is easily debunked. For example, “best practice” handwriting analysis is that you can’t accurately compare writing when one is attempting to disguise their writing, so already there’s a problem with it being Patsy, no one (including John) should be ruled out because the handwriting is disguised. Second, the samples of the writer from should be before the crime not after for a true comparison. John has made it a point to sign nothing all these years, so that there are no public records with his signature.

There has never been a single shred of intruder evidence, not one. I could go on and on, I had major surgery five years ago and went down a rabbit hole. Here’s my last tidbits...some where on that blog I shared above, there are links to the only known handwriting sample of John. There is also a post where that blogger succeeded in matching the letter perfectly to a particular font and character size, it was literally traced maybe 70% of the note. That means it was traced off a laptop monitor word processor — John worked in IT. John knew his bonus amount.

R31, R32, didn't John take trips to Amsterdam and no one really knows why?

there is only two ration scenarios here:

1.) JB fall down the stairs. Ruled not a homicide.

Or

2.) the brother killed her. If the brother accidentally killed her, then he was a small minor children and would not be charged. Also, nothing would be released to the public because he was a minor and is protected under the law. Ruled not a homicide.

Also, the local police department was BANNED from dealing with this case (not a homicide). The FBI handled it. The police officers were FIRED because they lied about the case to tabloids. This is now ILLEGAL.

No one sneaks into a house, sneaks up to a child’s bedroom, goes down into some out of the way cellar and tortures a kid in it while the family sleeps... then goes back up and leaves a ransom note on the stairs. This is like OJ. How fucking dumb can you be to not see the writing on the wall. It’s common sense. Let’s not forget all the cliches from movies... movies that the family had posters of in their rec room.

No one sneaks into a house, sneaks up to a child’s bedroom, goes down into some out of the way cellar and tortures a kid in it while the family sleeps... then goes back up and leaves a ransom note on the stairs. This is like OJ. How fucking dumb can you be to not see the writing on the wall?! It’s common sense. Let’s not forget all the cliches from movies... movies that the family had posters of in their rec room.

And the ransom note was written on the family’s own notepad. lmfao

These parents should have served life in prison.

Then they came out with the bullshit touch DNA, not to mention having that clown extradited and holding a news conference as though they caught the killer. The case was basically shut because John Ramsey became friends with the DA. Investigators left because they called out what was going on. They knew this was a shame and Ramsey was getting special treatment. He ran for office as a Republican. That takes some real arrogance.

Benet, Benet and the Jets

R33 yes that is true. I tried to research that myself, I’m sure there’s got to be at least one journalist who tried to find out where he went in Amsterdam, but it was so long ago that there are no records, it’s a bummer.

The cop who was there that day has an interview where she point blank says that as she was leaning over JB’s body, she knew she was looking into the eyes of the killer and in her head she was counting how many people vs bullets in her gun, she knew he could do anything, she could see John’s fear and desperation. She was supposedly writing a book, but it never came out. She supported Patsy and never believed Patsy killed JB — but she did believe Patsy buried her own suspicions, so she stayed in touch with her and even visited Patsy as she was dying, hoping for a deathbed breakthrough, but that also did not happen.

When JB died, John not only hired a A+++ legal team immediately — he even hired lawyers for his wife, all his children, his ex-wife. The Whites begged John to not to do the CNN interview, that it looked suspicious and that they needed to cooperate with the investigation, but John refused. It took I believe 6 months before the Ramey’s cooperated and did interviews.

I believe John *seriously* gaslit Patsy. They weren’t sexually active for years due to her illness. She had to fly once per month to the NIH, he never went with her once, he gave her no support. There are a fuse yak predators who only strike if they can — opportunistic predators. If John thought Patsy would die, and it looked like she would, that was an opportunity to abuse JB. The flashlight perfectly matched her skull fracture.

Notice too that not only did John throw Patsy under the bus, but former employees, former close close friends, but he’s even thrown his son under the bus by allowing him to do that Dr. Phil interview. He’ll do anything he can to put the spotlight on someone else.

Here is the cop Linda Arndt who wasn’t sure if John would try to kill them all — Ol’ Crazy Eyes. She was there the entire morning with all of them, this was not only her gut instinct, but based on multiple pieces of circumstantial evidence that day.

Not “fuse yak” lolol no idea what I was trying to type, I think “rare”

Parents always try to do what’s best for their kids.

John Ramsey killed her . This isn't some deep mystery. He threw suspension on everyone else, including his own son. He is fucking scum. Patsy covered for him.

@R39-- I didn't see your post, but you nailed it. I don't know if Patsy knew and covered for him, or if he gaslighted her, but he is the one who immediately wanted to leave the state, and the friend who was with him when he "found" JB's body said he started screaming before the body was even visible in the dark room .

R14 that sounds interesting. What exactly about the house set up made it more obvious it was someone in the house? I think it was too, but I never got as far as examining the house layout or yard, so I'm curious about what you noticed.

Poor little girl.

The main factor is time. No signs of a break in, although JR tried to stage a break in at the basement window, and lied about when it was broken. No one who wasn't very familiar with that house could have possibly found the room Jon Benet's body was found it . The War &Peace of ransom notes with insider info only John and Patsy would know written on their stationary with their pen and the pad and pen returned to the correct place where they kept it. Kidnappers do not leave phone book thick ransom notes. They do not feed pineapple to their victim. They do not leave the victim behind. Those are just a FEW if the facts that point to John Ramsey. There are so many more. Google Jon Benet Murder Datalounge. One poster listed it all out step by step, point by point. Once you read it there is no way you CAN'T find him guilty. It is excellent.

The article is convoluted on purpose, but all it's saying is that they had DNA testing done on the cigarette, right?

That's hardly breaking news. Breaking news would be if the DNA matches anything the authorities already have. I doubt this will. We'll probably never hear about it again.

R25 but what about this case suggests an outsider? You say there's signs when a family member kills another, so it couldn't be one of them, but what about ALL the signs of it not being an outsider??

How is John trying to book the hell out of there the same day he finds his murdered daughter, not a sign? FFS The scumbag picked a "money transport bag" that was the size of her body. What about everything else? The evidence as a whole and common sense conclude it was someone in the house. Because it's highly unlikely mom did it, that's what confuses people into thinking it wasn't the family. They think "why would Patsy allow that and keep quiet" -- for the same reasons a lot of women are in denial about an abusive spouse.

I've known many people sexually abused as children by family and I'd bet on it you'd think similarly if you just judged from their family interactions/ behaviors. One woman we knew had plently of red flags her husband was raping their 2 girls, but it took finding it on videotape to believe it. Even then she was in partial denial and felt torn about him going to prison. Other families we've known just don't acknowledge it ever again.

There were also major signs of her being molested long before this. The pissing in bed, the doctor visits, internal scars, etc., these are a common theme in sexual abuse cases. I'd even bet on it that her getting older was making her less cooperative. Are you going to argue all that was due to some random outsider as well?

R48+- Exactly. I think JBR was tired of him molesting her and threatened to tell. That or John just went too far that night and hurt her. Her little skull was broken in two. That took tremendous strength and rage. John then proceeded to throw everyone under the bus. Friends and family, including his son. It really bothers me that the sob will never pay.

R49 I completely agree. For a quick minute, I was swayed to thinking maybe the brother had a fight with her, but the signs of molestation don't add up with that. John was too quick with silencing his son, keeping him from accidentally bringing up anything nefarious that might've happened.

This case makes me sad too and I hate that he got away with it. Her picture was splashed on everything when I was almost as as young as her, where you couldn't avoid looking into her face, making it one of the cases that will forever stick in my mind.

This case should have been easily solved. He walked because he had money. It was not investigated correctly because of his prominent position. The rich literally get away with murder.

I thought it was agreed that brother did it and the parents covered it up.

No, R52, John cast suspicion on his son just as he did everyone else. On the 911 call you can clearly hear the him asking what happened, what is wrong? Then John harshly tells him to go back to sleep. They sent the brother to stay with a neighbor. Why would they do they if he had just killed his sister? Weren't they afraid he would talk, say something incriminating? It was John.

R52 no, but the brother doing it is a compelling theory. He had issues with his sister and there was a past incident of hitting her with a gold club. Honestly though, it is he was messing around with her. You never know of course, but there were other signs of a cover up that I don't think a child would think to do -- changing her into her favorite pajamas. I also have hard time believing most parents wouldn't call the police over that. I had siblings and we fought dangerously rough (I'm surprised we didn't seriously injure each other) and it was never treated as this rare, embarrassing thing that my parents would have to hide. They would've been too wrapped up in getting help to worry about anything else.

**it was unlikely he was messing around with her

Rich people do not commit crimes. This is known. We therefore directed our efforts at detecting if there were any poor black people within 100 miles of the Ramsey home.

The drawing of a heart on JBR's palm. The murder itself. The way she killed with a paint brush for a tourniquet. The pineapple. The strength it took to break her skull in two. No way in hell that kid did it. It is always the adult male in the family.

[quote] Burke with his finger's crossed

Oh, dear!

[quote] He threw suspension on everyone else,

He threw what now? Like one in a car?

That could’ve been what killed her.

Was he the gay uncle of another Junior Miss Beauty Pageant contestant?

[quote] The parents did not kill their own daughter--nothing in their lives gave any indication. When there is a family member who kills, there are many warning signs.

Oh, there were warning signs all right. But the little bitch never listened.

That wasn't the correct thread. It is this one, post 3.

It starts around post 3 and this guy studied this case in depth.

R48, have you seen the documentary where they show the footage of the HUNDREDS of strangers, neighbors, etc.who traipsed through the house at the Christmas Open House? That was enlightening to me. Did you read OP's article? There were men who did work around the house, weird neighbors, etc. I understand all about child sexual abuse and the denial surrounding it, but the Ramseys don't have the signs, imo.

[quote]have you seen the documentary where they show the footage of the HUNDREDS of strangers, neighbors, etc.who traipsed through the house at the Christmas Open House?

Were any of them members of a small foreign faction?

R21 fair question — it’s just a hunch. I can’t imagine the mother covering up for her husband, but I CAN see her doing it for her son.

As to why I suspect the mother: Her unhealthy obsession with her daughter (the name, the beauty pageant stuff), I could see her snap if daughter dearest refused to hold her fork in a particular way.

R39 that interview with the cop was fantastic. Thanks for sharing.

Best summation I've ever heard so far r12 on the subject. There's the famous saying: It just doesn't have the ring of truth - I'm referring to these zany theories about external agents or people infiltrating the house. Nah. Nope.

Also in addition to your notes, r12, you may remember Pasty doing some religious incantation over JB's body in the living room (after the father had brought up the body from downstairs), howling about her baby, etc. The police were looking on as well if I remember correctly.

Nope. Inside Job. Burke - some involvement. Someone put JB out of her misery. But who? Likely Dad and Mom wrote the letter, Mom spent time doing a good ol' ransom note.

Boggles the mind.

We’ve all be fascinated by this case for decades but I think we know what happened. In a fit of pique Burke hit her, much too hard.

When her parents discovered they had just lost one child, they decided not to lose another one as well. They then engaged in the coverup we all find so entertainingly preposterous.

They might have calculated that they’d be better off raising their strange son that his being in a psychiatric hospital. And it seems they were right—he seems relatively well-adjusted.

So that’s that, really. Of course the small foreign faction will never not be funny.

John Ramsey killed his daughter. Patsy helped cover it up. That child did not crack his sister's skull into. He was molesting her. She threatened to tell. We have seen what a temper he has. He tried to implicate everyone, including his wife and son. He is filth and should be on death row.

Mug cradling alert

r70 When you say "He was molesting her." Who do you mean? John, the father? or son? I read it over 6X and still not sure.

I really think ones who say the brother did it sound like non critical thinking imbeciles. Like basic gays.

Can’t we just let sleeping child beauty queens lie!

[quote] You amateur sleuths couldn't even tamp Sherlock's pipe correctly. The ex-FBI guy (I can't be bothered to google this stuff for you) succinctly explained what happened and pointed to the possible 'kidnapper' who killed.

The ex-FBI guy r25 is referring to is John Douglas. He believes in the intruder theory. This post sums up his investigation well.

R70- The father. The one who murdered his daughter. John Ramsey

Patsy was a pig, Burke is a sissy-gay (but incredibly handsome as an adult) and John is normal as are his children by his real wife.

John is a disgusting pervert who molested his and killed his daughter. Now he hides behind lawyers and religion. Piece of filth.

JonBenet Ramsey died for all of our sins.....

And YOURS TOO!

R73 is an example of those websleuth fraus who are mentally ill on this issue. She needs to pry her fingers from the mug and get a life.

The only kidnapping in history where the kid wasn't actually napped.

Zhan Benet died for my zhins?

Burke did it. If John had done it, there’s no way Patsy would have covered for him all those years. If Patsy had done it, there’s no way John would have covered for her all those years. Marriages are very rarely strong enough to hold together after one spouse does something that heinous. But your kid? Both parents would more likely cover up a shared child’s horrible misdeeds/actions. And they’d be more likely to stay together after the fact. They probably both saw themselves, ironically, as being good, protective parents.

People have claimed John was molesting JonBenet, but there’s no actual proof he did any molesting. There is proof that Burke and JonBenet had a very contentious relationship that led to some disturbing behavior (chocolate, anyone?). And Burke was old enough to “molest” JonBenet - it was likely aggressive sexual curiosity which would explain her UTI’s, infections, bed wetting, etc. It also ties in with what a little shit Burke was. He was aggressive, jealous, and spoiled.

Parental cover-up of Burke’s actions also explain their odd, disjointed behavior after the fact: the absurd 3 page note in Patsy’s handwriting, the 911 call with Burke heard in the background, the “search” and eventual “discovery” of the body by John and the ridiculous drama that ensued, the complete cooperation between the couple in withholding information to investigators, the absolute bizarre, evasive behavior by Burke for several years after seen on video with the counselor/investigator.

And the garrote? The broken paint brush? Furtive, pathetic attempts by one or both parents after the fact trying to bolster the appearance of an intruder and further cover up Burke’s end-product of an impulsive, explosive temper toward JonBenet.

I’ve been married 16 years. There’s no way either of us would cover up the accidental death of our kid caused by the other spouse. No fucking way. And I don’t know of any straight couple that would. But cover up for a kid? It’s highly unlikely, but way more possible. Especially if you’re a high-profile family.

It’s important and complete random to add that years ago, a DL’er posted a fake Christmas newsletter pretending to come from Patsy Ramsey. It was beyond hilarious and I printed it out and laminated it. I hang it up annually with all the holiday cards I receive. Thank you random DL’er.

Post it R83!

R84

“PATSY RAMSEY 1996 CHRISTMAS NEWSLETTER

Dear Friends, Family and Foreign Factions:

Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals having a lovely holiday! It's been another busy year at the luxuriously appointed Ramsey Christian home. As I told the children: Enjoy the celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because, you just never know, it may just be your last . . .

The older, unattractive children, unworthy of pageants, are doing stuff. One is on the East Coast (I hear from the gossips at the club) and one might even still be in Colorado. Coloring JonBenet’s hair and finding appropriate restraining devices for rigorous comb-outs keeps me far too busy to notice so many, many, many things. But I have started noticing SOME things.

Burke is a busy fourth grader trying to grow a brain. He's lost just about all of his baby teeth. He is welcome!

JonBenet, ever the minx, is enjoying her Daddy. Kindergarten in the Fashion Knowledge program, which includes both fashion posing and fashion moving, is fast paced, involves a lot of coffee and ciggies, and five full days a week. She has already been moved ahead a full grade in both runway and seduction. She continues to enjoy dressing up as a pint-size streetwalker in talent and modeling pageants. She was named "Miss Salacious” at a darling pageant in Tijuana, where her talent was singing “Boom Boom Boom Let’s Go Back to My Room” in Mexican. My goodness, she is so proud of all her sashes and tiaras! Which is why I have to remind her how small-time they all seem to a real Miss West Virginia. Her teacher says she is so outgoing that she will never have trouble delivering oral. Just ask John! Access recently celebrated its one billion $$ mark in sales, so he's in pretty good shape to buy my silence, if not participation in his “hobby.”

I spend most of my 'free time' working in the Sunday school and doing volunteer work, rebuking Muslims and other unsaved trash. My dear friend Betsy Richards’ ticky-tacky house with brick only on the front was on the home tour in July and will likely appear in one of the Better Homes & Gardens publications in 1997. Remember when that used to be the Bible of good taste? My goodness! I’d call it Bitter Homes & Garbage now! LOL! On a recent trip to NYC, my friend and I appeared amid the throng of fans on the TODAY show. My beauty caught the eyes of Al Roker & Bryant, and even though they are both unrepentant Negroes, I actually talked to them about JonBenet’s and my new Sister Act. I was on camera for all the world to see! Yes, just another thing, JonBenet will never be: A glamorous TV star!

We are all enjoying continued good health while it lasts and some of us look forward to seeing you in 1997! One final note ... thank you to all my 'friends' and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I've ever had! In case you didn’t pick up what I was just telling you: He spent A LOT more money on that one party than most of you will for rent and groceries all year! We'll be spending even more money on my actual birthday on the Disney Big Red Boat over the new year! Jealous? Oh, stop! If you think I’m famous now, well you just wait . . . LOL! ;)

Merry Christmas and much love, The Ramseys

--Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder, CO Nov 19, 2015 7:25 AM +00:00”

R43 I wish Fleet White’s deposition was on the internet so badly!

The Burke theory makes sense BUT would parents really feel comfortable sleeping under the safe roof as a creepy kid killer after something like that happens? Also, he was such a pipsqueak and seemed pretty comfortable-until the subject of pineapple came up-during his interview with police. I think Patsy and her bible-thumping, crazy inbred, West Virginian mountain genes freaked out and killed her. Burke was coached.

I've never really followed this story closely, but among my many questions: Why the hell would anyone have left a "ransom note" in the house if they killed the kid and left her body in the basement?

So many high profile cases so just to be clear though, if this breakthrough happens, dear little JonBenet is still enjoying her reward, right?

I mean, you wouldn't want to end up like those McCann people not knowing if she really could walk through the door tomorrow.

Why is this news? The DNA won't match. Patsy wrote the goddamned note.

[quote] The Burke theory makes sense BUT would parents really feel comfortable sleeping under the safe roof as a creepy kid killer after something like that happens?

Of course. First, they loved him. He was Patsy's only remaining child. Not sure about the dad, but he'd already lost not one, but TWO daughters, and he was old. Patsy had fucking terminal ovarian cancer.

So what do they have to fear, even if the kid kills them? And they believed it was an accident anyway.

One of the things I just noticed is the placement of the ransom note. It was placed on that one circular stairway that Patsy descended each morning. That home was so large, and complex, and with so many stairways, how would they know to put it in the EXACT place Patsy would first be in the morning.

R85's "hilarious" Christmas newsletter is only intermittently amusing.

Here’s a link to last week’s thread with an article from December 21:

[quote]New DNA evidence won't be ruled out to solve the murder of Jonbenet

All they had left (loving photo of John, Patsy and Burke a year after Jon Benet died)

And a 9 year old is not responsible - like if a toddler picks up a gun and kills somebody with it, they don't know what the hell they're doing and it's not murder. A 9 year old knows a little more, most of them, but still isn't legally or morally responsible yet.

But the parents would cover it up because it would ruin his life.

It was a stranger. NOT THE FAMILY.

[quote]Breaking News in JonBenet Ramsey Case

YOU MEAN SHE'S DEAD?

I had forgotten.

So Patsy wrote a ransom note to protect a stranger?

That poor little girl was sexualized by her mom. That whole family gives me the creeps

Of course there are people who refuse to believe JonBenet was murdered by her family, like the people who refuse to believe Richard III could in any way have been responsible for the inexplicable disappearances of his little nephews in the Tower whose skeletons were certainly NOT those of those unfortunate little boys unearthed in a hidden place.)

"The fucking mother wrote it. A man would not write such a lengthy letter."

Men can't write lengthy letters? Okay, whatever.

Funny how the "Ramsey's did it!" crowd can't even say which Ramsey did it.

It was Burke!

It was John!

It was Patsy!

Pick a theory and stick with it

R88, obviously, no one would break into a house, kill someone, drag the body to the basement and then sit around drafting (and redrafting) a bogus “ransom note.” That’s one of the key reasons people do not believe that the killer was an outsider. The ransom note appeared to have been written to allow the Ramseys to call the police, who could then witness the “shocking discovery” of the body.

Exactly, R103. But my question remains -- if an outsider did kill that poor little girl, why would they write a "ransom note" but then leave the dead body in the basement? And if one of the Ramsey wrote the "ransom note," why would they think anyone would buy that it was legit after their daughter's body was found in the basement? People don't pay ransom for a dead body.

R96 no way.

R104 when given those 2 scenarios, it would seem someone inside the house writing the note with the intention of removing the body after the innocent parties are out of the way is more likely than an outside person waiting for the family to leave to go retrieve the body. So if John wrote the note his entire plan hinges on Patsy following the instructions in the note, so why wouldn’t he have done more to prevent her calling 911? If he wrote the note it was very stupid to name the exact amount of a recent bonus as the ransom amount. I guess maybe he was panicking and not making ‘smart’ decisions.

R104, the murder does not seem to have been premeditated. Whoever did it had a short window of time in which to improvise, and coming up with stupid stories that instantly collapse is typical human behavior. And John Ramsey thought that he could get himself and his wife and son away from there quickly.

Fwiw, past DL threads on this have convinced me that John was the killer. He persuaded/forced Patsy to write the note.

[quote]Coming up with stupid stories that instantly collapse is typical human behavior.

Yes, but a ransom note makes absolutely no sense whatsoever if the body is left on the premises. If a stranger had killed Jon-Benet, they would have had to remove the body from the house so the Ramseys could believe she might still be alive and in captivity, and would pay up according to the instructions in the ransom note. And if one of the Ramseys wrote the note, they would have to remove the body themselves and dump it somewhere in order for the note to appear plausible.

Why was Patsy still in the same party clothes from the night before when the cops showed up?

Hmmm. Could be lots of reasons. She could have fallen asleep drunk - then woke up to find her dead daughter, panicked, was busy concocting a "brilliant" strategy and ransom note... not much time in there to worry about showering and changing clothes.

Maybe she always slept in her clothes from the day before - some people do. Reports were the house was a mess. Maybe she was a slob?

She claimed she put the clothes on back on and then did her hair and make-up. She didn't take a shower. I call bullshit on this because the Ramseys were leaving on a flight to Michigan that morning. They were going to meet Melinda's fiance. No wealthy woman with a closet full of clothes is going to meet her future son-in-law unwashed and wearing dirty clothes from the night before.

R111, you posting what is strictly a fact. There are people out there who are so “frugal” that they will rewear an outfit immediately, particularly if it was dry cleaned and only worn for a short period of time. How do I know? I witnessed it in my own family.

Those people are not Patsy Ramsey to whom appearances were everything.

R113- True, however, PR was over medicated after her cancer dx. I have always believed that she developed an addiction to pain/anxiety meds. She frequently slurred her words in interviews. Long term addicts tend to neglect hygiene.

Wow, I’m buzzed. I am trying to say the what you posted is not a fact, but opinion, up at r112. I’ll tuck myself in.

Do you guys remember when John Ramsey started hooking up with Natalee Holloway’s mom? Truth really is stranger than fiction

Thread title is all wrong. It should be:

“JonBenet Ramsey is DEAD to me!”

At first, I read this to say "Breaking Necks in JonBenet Ramsey Case".

The weird thing no one mentions: after her death, someone decided to make it a kidnapping. If the parents were covering up a violent accident, why did they choose the ruse of kidnapping? Wouldn't you try to get the body out of the house first? The police are going to come right to you. There is a big part of this story that has yet to be discovered or properly analyzed. Don't you think the Ramseys wanted the body to be found, wanted the fingers pointed at them instead of someone else, close to them? I think they did, because they knew they could beat it, but this other person could not.

No r119. I think the note was written to fool Patsy. Think about it — read it as though it was written to convince her of a kidnapping and what would happen if she called police. When you put the puzzle piece into the right spot, it all makes perfect sense. That note wasn’t intended for anyone except Patsy. It is also fascinating that Patsy ignored the note and called anyway.

But R120, what if Patsy didn't call the police? What would have happened then? Would John have just killed her too? It's senseless.

The father was creepy and a corrupt CEO who traveled a lot. The brother was violent with a history of abusive behavior toward JonBenet. The mom was a basket case pageant mom who was using her daughter to live vicariously through. I don't think JonBenet had a chance had she lived with this family environment.

Patsy wrote the note. It’s been all but proven.

This type of family was all about their image. They could not risk losing their social status. So they covered up the accidental death by making it look like a kidnapping. They weren't thinking rationally about the holes in the story. They just needed to maintain victimhood for their pristine all-American family image.

R124, I just don't believe that. You have a dead body in your house. You call the police to come right over. No, just no.

How much fucking money was the family worth? All of the legal stuff must have been unbelievably expensive.

R125 They weren't thinking logically. Both parents were narcissistic and self-absorbed. They also were at risk for losing their other child or going to prison for child endangerment. You are applying common sense and morality to people who clearly do not have that.

I do think that Patsy wrote the note as part of the family cover-up.

At one time, I thought Burke accidentally killed JonBenet.

However, I now think John, the father, killed JonBenet and had been sexually molesting her as well.

And I do believe Patsy would have helped in the cover-up, whether it was Burke or John who killed JonBenet.

Wasn’t there semen in her underwear?

One has to bend over backwards and twist all kinds of logic to uphold the intruder theory at this point.

Trump people seem to be down with the intruder theory. Maybe because noted insane unhinged mentally ill lawyer Lin Wood is the Ramsay's attorney. Seems like scumbags attract scumbags.

R130 After living in a JB rabbithole the past 3 days and finding Patsy R laughably guilty, I found a reddit board that discusses the dna and evidence withheld by the BPD that does point to an intruder, I am now in the camp of an intruder did it. I recommend heading over to “who truly killed Jonbenet?” on reddit and skimming through it (or disappearing down the hole). Tons of evidence that was never made public. Let me know what you think!

I think people can't accept the father could have been a perv who wanted to destroy evidence of his abused child and convinced his dutiful wife to cover for him (hint: they never divorced). There's also people who can't accept the mother could have flipped out due to stress (cancer will do that) and went too far with discipline. Maybe that her brother unintentionally hurt her while playing a "game" and the parents freaked out over their son getting sent away. So they made it look like a murder/kidnapping. One thing I do feel is Burke was manipulated by his parents. 9 is still young and of course would believe whatever his parents told him.

I don't think we'll ever know. But the intruder theory makes no sense.

R132- Absolutely. An intruder would have never been able to navigate in that dark home, much less known to leave the RN on the spiral staircase for PR to find. What kidnapper feeds his victim, changes her clothes, and kills her before getting the ransom money?

R133- ETA: A kidnapper would not have left her body in the house.

R134 Totally. The commenters on the threads say the intruder has been in the house before and was in the house for hours while the Ramseys were at the party at the Whites. There was also a defaced article about John Ramsey left in the house. Google Ramsey Esprit article. They make a very believable case for the Ramseys having been stalked for quite some time before the murder.

R132 I was 100% with you until I read these threads. It has been proven that the boulder police withheld evidence that points to an intruder while selling info to the tabloids implicating the Ramseys. I recommend reading it.

This case would be solved by now, if I was their neighbor

R136

R138

Also, people accuse Burke of being this sociopath for reasons I do not get. He was a small child likely coached by his parents of what to say and do. In that adult interview he had with Dr. Phil, he came across as someone who suffered from a condition (maybe autism, ADHD or just social anxiety). Clearly lacking in social skills. People smile and laugh a lot when nervous. He looked uncomfortable but nothing screamed guilty. Whatever his parents told him, over the years, he would likely just blindly believe it. If he did kill his sister by accident, I doubt he would have gone on TV for an interview. It's not impossible that he may have hurt her by mistake. Though I doubt he was strong enough to kill her nor wanted to do. Siblings fight a lot and very physically which any parent can attest to. I'm lately falling in the party of the parents likely finished her off or actually killed her -the dad seems pervy and the mom was a basket case, both had a reputation to uphold. Burke was a victim in this regardless as the responsibility lied with John and Patsy.

The kidnapping makes no sense, whether it was the Ramseys or a stranger.

Nothing makes sense here. I really looked like a coverup to me. This case is frustrating because obviously John and Patsy knew more than they told. They way they acted was suspicious with all the lack of cooperation and tampering the crime scene. John will take whatever he knows to the grave. The police just fucked up the investigation and I don't think they'll ever get a conclusion.

R140- Not only that, J&PR allowed him to go stay with the neighbors that morning. I really don't think they would have dared take a chance on Burke talking to the neighbors had he just killed his sister.

R141, the kidnapping story makes more sense if you assume, as some do, that John killed JonBenet and also wrote the ransom note. The note, which was placed so that Patsy would find it first, instructs the Ramseys not to call the police, and it specifically directs John to leave the house, ostensibly to deliver the ransom money. Both of those instructions would have helped John: it would have shut up Patsy and it would have given him the opportunity to get rid of evidence and possibly the body itself. The plan didn't completely work--Patsy insisted on calling the police--but it did buy John time. He did in fact disappear several times before the body was discovered.

All those people who think an intruder broke in and killed a random young girl for grins, then wrote a note about a foreign faction and fucked off, you should really get together with OJ and Kathy MacDonald in your quest to find the real killer.

The investigation (police) started out wrong. This was a small, affluent town. Cops were not used to kidnappings and murders. Cops were also not used to dealing with super-rich people like the Ramseys, as well. The number and nature of fuck-ups was pathetic. IIRC, cops allowed friends to "clean" the crime scene.

I can understand allowing John to accompany cops to unusual areas of the house, but he ended up going into the basement alone then handling the body. WTF kind of elaborate, labyrinth type of basement was that, anyway?

Look at how he carried his daughters body. Away from him. He did not cradle her, as most parents would. Patsy hugged her daughters body, collapsed in sobs.

R146, that basement is almost too symbolic. It's exactly the kind of thing you would expect in a home belonging to someone with hidden sides to his personality.

Anyone else hoping JR is sweating his shriveled up old balls off in fear?

How rich were the Ramseys? Tens of millions? Hundreds of millions?

The outside of the house was very nice, but the inside was a dump. Way too many piles of crap here and here, like in the home of a middle class person. Too much stuff.

R146- Gothic. That house was darkly creepy to me. And nasty, just clutter everywhere. It seems much brighter now, imo.

R150- It looked absolutely filthy inside. And it had a dark, creepy vibe. It seems much lighter now with new owners. There is no way that an intruder did found his way around in that house in the dark.

Remember that tv interview that fucking lush whore Elizabeth Vargas did with John?

Kept saying over and over how he was, without a doubt, proven innocent of being involved in JonBenet's murder... I swear I thought she was going to fellate him right there on camera.

Remember when John was dating Natalee Holloway's mother? Ugh!

Then I knew he was guilty as fuck when he ran as a Republican. That party is eat up with pedophiles and child abusers.

R153- Yes it was vomit inducing. As far as Natalie's mother, I think she dumped him pretty quickly. I would love to know what she really thinks of him now. He sickens me, hiding behind religion.

most experts agree mommy was protecting her austic son who done it...

R147 God, can you imagine the scene that morning? So gruesome, bizarre and creepy af.

I don't believe the ransom note was for Patsy. How is John going to spirit away JBs body with Patsy and Burke right there? It's all just senseless. Either the Ramseys all knew what had happened, or none of them did.

Pipsqueak autistic Burke did not bash his sister’s head in with enough force to collapse her skull in one place and crack it 8.5 inches from front to back. It just didn’t happen.

Ok, but what if Burke did hit her with the flashlight, knocked her out cold (and cracked her skull), and then the Ramseys thought she was dead? So they created the garrote, and put it around her neck, pulling it tight, *even though she was not actually dead yet.* This part makes sense to me. JB was "killed" using two different methods, and even the experts argued over which was first — which method really killed her.

No, the *sole* scenario that makes sense is that John wrote the note to stall Patsy, avoid cops, withdraw the “ransom” money, hide the body. But the only thing it succeeded in doing is to buy him time. As stated above, he did indeed disappear multiple times that morning. Boulder Police Detective Linda Arndt became so alarmed as the body was brought up, as she leaned over the body across from John, she stated that it was an almost visceral response, she and John made eye contact, and in the brief moment, he knew that she knew he did it, she could see the frenzied panic in his eyes, and so she counted her bullets, trying to anticipate who he might fire at first.

Again, when you understand that the purpose of the note centered on Patsy, then it all makes sense. The “foreign faction” was to terrorize Patsy, as were the threats of beheading. It explains his disappearance, it explains why he didn’t follow the detectives instructions and instead bolted into the wind cellar to start the search (as documented by his BFF Fleet), and just sooooooo much more. It explains why he lawyered up, why he stopped interrogations, why he booked a plane and planned to leave in mere minutes of discovering her body, on and on and on. It explains Patsy’s behavior that day too — by all accounts, she was hysterical for many months and was kept under heavy sedation, most noticeably seen in their CNN interview the week after the murder.

For sure, BPD completely fucked the case up, they were corrupt and unprofessional, but not more so than the actual DA, who literally allowed the Ramsey’s (John) to dictate all the terms of their cooperation. As did the state’s attorney too if my memory is correct, when she cleared the Ramsey’s, what a clown she was, she should be disbarred for that stunt — have you ever heard of a poof black/brown person getting eliminated along with an apology from LEO? But even with all that, there is still a prosecutable case if they would hire a DA with balls. I originally thought the new DA might finally go after them, but nope!

If you run the case through the lens of facts only, then a few things are clear, one of which is that the killer wrote the note (obviously). We know JonBenet was never kidnapped. We know she was sexually assaulted both that night, and at least one other time. We know that the killer placed JB in an obscure part of the house that could not be found by a stranger. We know that the killer put the note on the circular staircase used by the family, so the killer knew their routine and location in the house. We know that real random notes are always, and I do mean always, very short. We know that a child-murder is 13-1 the eldest male in the house. We know the blow was powerful enough to fell a 300 lb man (imagine swinging a battle ax over your head with all your might) and that she was hit from straight above.

We know the mag-lite is a strong contender for the murder weapon, we know it was wiped clean of prints, including the batteries! We know that the window had not been broken earlier that year, we know no one entered the locked house because JOHN said so that morning as he walked the property checking all windows and doors with coppers.

There are a few people still alive who have knowledge that needs to be released. Detective Arndt was supposed to write a book, she maintained an extremely tight bond with Patsy and hoped she would reveal all she knew when she died during their visits.

John went to retrieve his mail while he was waiting for the kidnappers to call. Do you think that’s normal? To worry about opening mail? There was nothing John did that was in anyway normal, he never has, and so many don’t want to believe it’s that simple. Go talk to Fleet White, read what he has written and said. It is obvious who the White’s believe killed JB.

R159, are the Ramsey’s two separate people, or no?

R159 I think we are underestimating how difficult it is to bash a skill in so hard it makes those types of injuries. Jonbenet’s head was hit with a bat or baton by a grown man.

R160, no, that is not what happened, certainly not believable to anyone.

R160, so after John kills JB, instead of loading her in a car and driving away, he spends 2 hours writing and re-writing a ransom note to distract Patsy, in order to buy some time to load JB in a car and drive away.

Nope.

Wouldn't it make sense that Patsy was trying to cover for John initially but still called the police anyway?

And now that I think about it, John is black.

I still think it's possible Patsy could have flipped out at JonBenet due to stress of chemo and whatever medication she was on. A six-year-old child can be very annoying and Patsy was a neurotic and controlling stage mom. She isn't the type to think logically. Once she came to her sense and saw what she did. She panicked and may have thought staging it as a kidnapping could work to clear herself.

R166, I think the parents staged the body. I think the parents foolishly dreamed up the kidnapping scheme, and wrote the note. I think the parents knew exactly what transpired that night, and needed to cover it up as much as possible.

But I don't know who was actually guilty of the murder. It could have been Burke, or Patsy, or John. If it was accidental, it was probably an accident following violence. So, in a way, they were all guilty.

The room where JB was found was in a corner of the basement. It wasn't used much, but it was not hidden. Any detective could have easily found it — it had a door after all.

R163, could he really count on Patsy sleeping through the whole thing? Plus after he after he led JonBenet downstairs and to the basement, where killed her, he might not have felt up the the task of immediately bringing up her body and leaving evidence everywhere. If JonBenet disappeared with no explanation, the police certainly would have examined the whole house plus the cars for clues.

There was a cop who was searching the basement that morning. He thought about opening the door but for whatever reason he didn't. How differently this case might have turned out if he had.

What a dummy, why not open the door in the basement? Missing little girl, why not check every single room in the house? He's already down there in the basement.

I don’t understand. Maybe John was molesting his daughter, but why would he suddenly smash her on the head with a flashlight. And then why bother to make a garrotte? Why not wait for the skull fracture to kill her?

The scene had to be staged quickly because in a matter of hours they were scheduled to meet Melinda and her fiance in Michigan. It's not as if they could show up without Jonbenet.

I think people on this thread are trying too hard to make logic out of two distressed adults who had a dead child and needed a quick way to explain that situation to the authorities. Staging the kidnapping was beyond stupid but who is smart in a desperate situation like that?

Somebody at the house called the cops on Dec. 23. That would have been JB and that was the motive for murder. She had been told to call 9-1-1.

That was the same party where a guest saw JB sitting on the stairs crying. JB said she didn't feel pretty.

This case still amazes me.

I can’t help but feel the ransom note was written in a strange, non-masculine and almost flowery style.

That points to Patsy.

R175 Can you expand on that?

R176 If that is true, that child was doomed from the start. Patsy may or may not have killed her, but she was guilty of terribly fucked up parenting which no doubt would have plagued JB throughout her life had she lived.

Would JonBenet have grown up to be a super-confident mean girl?

R177, yeah, because middle-aged fraus love quoting Die Hard.

R179 I am sure she would have been a product of being raised in an obnoxious pageantry setting with obnoxious Republican, pageant parents.

She would've worked in the Trump WH.

Were John and Patsy mean to Burke because he was flamingly gay?

r183

If Burke were a gay, Patsy would've put HIM in a beauty contest.

John did it and Patsy tried to cover it up with the strange ransom note.

Burke was a very pretty boy and grew into a handsome adult. I'm sure he would have enjoyed those pageants a lot more than JonBenet who was tarted up and looked uncomfortable. But a god-fearing Christian mom like Patsy couldn't have a fruity son swishing on stage.

[quote] I don’t understand. Maybe John was molesting his daughter, but why would he suddenly smash her on the head with a flashlight. And then why bother to make a garrotte? Why not wait for the skull fracture to kill her?

I've wondered this as well. Maybe JonBenet threatened to report him. Maybe things went too far. IIRC, the vaginal injury was post-mortem. If someone accidentally killed JonBenet under a more normal circumstance, e.g., pushing her down the stairs, I just don't see adding vaginal injuries to the mix (as a way to complicate the crime scene) - unless that's a place you've been before / something you've done before.

The ransom note, a shorter one, I could understand. She's dead and you plan to hide/dump the body. Obviously, the plan changed after that: foul play in the basement.

[quote]But a god-fearing Christian mom like Patsy couldn't have a fruity son swishing on stage.

You left out a part. It should read

But a god-fearing Christian mom like Patsy couldn't have a fruity son swishing on stage.--unless she thought he'd win.

R186 If little Burke and Patsy were alive now, Burke would be a little trans “girl”.

[quote]The ransom note, a shorter one, I could understand. She's dead and you plan to hide/dump the body.

You "plan" to hide/dump the body? There again, that makes no sense to me at all. Why would the person write a ransom note BEFORE disposing of the body somewhere beyond the basement, and why wouldn't they take care of that immediately?

Maybe they planned to get rid of the body but something stopped them.

Usually killing someone makes no sense, R190. Once you’ve started down that road, anything might seem reasonable to you.

Right. One thing that's clear to me is that this was not premeditated and was a clusterfuck-type reaction.

Why did John write the note? To stall before Patsy called the cops. Sexual abuse, then snack time, then a head blow, then the shock, then the strangulation plan, then the actual staging. He must have been exhausted, and now it was the middle of the night, his wife will be up soon. What to do?

He didn’t have enough time to clean-up everything that night, so he makes a plan. Fake a kidnapping, convince Patsy to still go up to Michigan while he gets the random for those pesky kidnappers. Get Patsy away from the house without her alerting law enforcement.

Honestly not a bad theory, R194

R188- 🤭

Thank you, r195, but my suggestion is not original. If you read the note as John writing to Patsy, it shows you the depths of his cunning, deceit, malice, manipulation, and yes, his hatred of Patsy. She was a toy for him to bat around, to get what he needed. When you read the note as written to Patsy, it is quite clear that he was trying to terrorize her into compliance. But still she persisted, haha. Patsy had bigger balls than he realized.

I also believe it explains her behavior the first 12 hours. She avoids John, doesn’t seem to want to be alone with him, is inconsolable, peering through her fingers in horror, she was the one who called their friends over too — I believe that she was afraid to be alone with him. She suppressed her own knowledge because it was too terrifying. Then she moved right into massive levels of benzodiazepines and muscle relaxers over many, many months.

By the time that girl drew a sober breath, John had been whispering into her ear for at least a year. By the time she came out of the haze, her “memory” was clear that John was innocent. Think about it — the only thing linking John to the killing (for Patsy) was the broken window story. I could see John telling her she needed to corroborate his version of that story, and if she actually believed he was innocent (and knew the pigs were after him) why not tell one little teensy lie if that will save her innocent husband from prison? Remember too, John would have told her by the end of week one, “the handwriting expert cleared me 100%. We both know that you didn’t do it too. So now the cops are going to try and turn us against each other, so we need to stick together because clearly the cops are out to get us.”

It really all falls into a single, neat little line….it’s kind of freaky and shocking.

R197 I didn’t read your long-assed reply.

R197

So what lie does Patsy need to tell?

To those saying JR wrote the ransom note: the handwriting and the wording of the note both pointed to PR. She had that style of handwriting and that style of vocabulary. John didn’t write it.

Another point to add is that neither party in most married couples would defend or cover up for the other if one of them murdered their child. However, a married couple would be likely to cooperate and conspire together to cover up for a murder of their child if their other child did it. It’s human nature. Parents protect their offspring. Spouses get thrown under the bus.

[quote] Another point to add is that neither party in most married couples would defend or cover up for the other if one of them murdered their child.... Parents protect their offspring. Spouses get thrown under the bus.

In a perfect world, yes.

R199, she corroborated John’s story that the window has been broken over the summer, that he had been meaning to get it repaired when in fact he broke it that night.

It's plausible Patsy would have still covered for John. A lot of women truly embody that "stand by your man" mentality.

As one commentator has said, if both John and Patsy were in on the coverup they could have invented any story. They could have staged a break-in and claimed that they saw an intruder. They didn’t have to take additional risks by writing a ridiculously long ransom note. The ransom note makes more sense if it was written by John to stop Patsy from calling the police.

Interesting analysis, R197 — thank you for that.

R200 I agree re: style and vocabulary, although another poster here finds it unlikely Patsy would quote something out of Die Hard. Could’ve been a nice addition from papa dearest..?

R203 absolutely. This was also 25 years ago. I have the feeling John and Patsy were moving in quite conservative circles.

For John to remarry and have the balls to run for office means either is a stone cold psychopath or he is totally innocent.

R163- The War and Peace of ransom notes was to prevent Patsy from calling the police, giving JR time to remove her body from the house. A suitcase was found in the basement. He planned to put her body in the suitcase. It would make sense to Patsy that he needed the suitcase for the ransom money. But Patsy called 911 immediately anyway, and I would love to know just why she did that. Fear of her husband? JR carried JB's body away from him, the way one would carry a muddy pet, not wanting it to touch you. Patsy collapsed in overwhelming grief, and laid on top of her daughters cold body, as it trying to bring warmth and life back to her baby. Like most grieving parents would. JR didn't want to touch her. Everything John Ramsey did that day just screams guilt. It is a travesty of justice that he has never had to answer for sexually assaulting then murdering his daughter. Just fucking shameful.

R204, my problem with “the parents did it” or whatever, is that means, *two* adults who never broke a law in their life, decided at the *same time* to engage in conspiracy to cover-up a murder, a murder of their child, together. Doesn’t that seem just a trendy weensy bit far-fetched? It is much more plausible that there was a some perpetrator vs. a duo or a trio, no?

R208 and that is why rich white people get away with murder literally.

John was a CEO. He broke laws.

I love "trendy teensy," r208!

HA! I’m terrible with my proofing these days r211. I kind of like it too! 🤓

I remember watching interviews of the couple, seated together (John and Patsy). I'm no body language expert, but his body language towards her was so cold and uncaring. She (Patsy) definitely seemed like she was on pills, downers.

JonBenet killed herself!

R210- John is an abusive psychopath. Just look at who his friends are. Lin " psycho Trump ass licking " Woods? Water seeks it's own level. John Ramsey is know to be a savage bully with an explosive temper. Very verbally abusive. Malignant narcissist.

^ this

Muriel, my kingdom for an edit option. Sigh.

Where's the evidence that John is all that R215? If it's true then fine, but I've never heard any of that. And he was connected to Lin Wood way back before Wood went batshit crazy.

R218- Lin Wood has always been a morally bankrupt POS and a vicious bully. The manner in which he used the courts to go after anyone who slightly questioned JR about his actions that day amounted to an abuse of the justice system.

R218- My apologies, it has been so many years ago when I was obsessed with this case that I read everything I could get my hands on, but it was mentioned in more than one of the books on this case. I will try to find out the names of the books. One isn't a book, but a website with an impressive amount of info . A candy rose? The women who ran that site passed away, but I think it is still up. John has no real friends. The few he had he tried to cast suspicion on. Not only his friends, but his son and wife as well. He is pure filth. A vile man. A baby killer. Child rapist.

Goddamn you evil queens!

JOHN RAMSEY IS INNOCENT! 100% I-N-N-O-C-E-N-T!!!

John is a truly beautiful man. Powerful. Intelligent. Sexy.

Why I bet he is hung like a mule. To feel that mammoth cock of his inside of you must be pure heaven! Thrusting in and out. Filling me with that warm, delicious cum.

Ohhhhh God I'm cumming!!!!

R221- 😂😂😂

R221- You can have that chore, you shameless hussy. I found it to be so messy and unfulfilling that I made John use a wrapper.

Have any of you seen this? What are your thoughts?

Patsy told her housekeeper that John's penis was sour and she hated getting pubes caught in her teeth!

I just want that smug asshole John to get ruined.

[quote]The ransom note makes more sense if it was written by John to stop Patsy from calling the police.

Okay, but honest question: Under that scenario, at what point and by what method was he planning to remove the body from the basement without anyone seeing him do so?

It was probably night-time when she died. Roll her up in a carpet and put the carpet in the back of an SUV. It's not like she was 6'2" and 250 pounds.

R227, as R207 points out, the note specifically required John to leave the house to deliver the ransom. There was a suitcase in the basement. JonBenet’s body could have been put in that, and John could have driven off with the suitcase without Patsy questioning him.

R229, thanks for giving a plausible scenario for the removal of the body from the house. So I guess theoretically John could have gone to the bank and gotten all that cash for the "ransom" payment, pretended to be putting the money in the suitcase when he was actually in the basement stuffing the body in the suitcase, and then left the house and dumped the body somewhere. Still kind of a stretch, but at least barely plausible.

Maybe they go though the whole thing, planning for John to go get the money from the bank, only to realize it was Christmas and all banks would be closed.

So instead of putting JBs body in the suitcase to begin with, he takes the time to write a lengthy ransom note?

Not buying it. JBs body was staged.

[quote]JBs body was staged.

How do you mean?

What do we think was going through JonBenet's mind in her final moments?

"I hope that pineapple doesn't go straight to my thighs. Mom's gonna kill me!"

R232, but think of what it would have taken to remove the body that evening. He’d have to hope that Patsy did not wake up. He’d have to hope that no insomniac neighbor saw his car leave. He’d have to find somewhere, without prior research, to dump the body, and he might have to drive some distance to do that. He’d have to hope no one observed him or his car in this new area. He’d probably have to clean the car. That’s a long night.

What exactly did Vargas gain by professing Ramsey's innocence in that interview?

People still think an outsider did this? Kidnappers aren't this sloppy. They would sedate their victim or duck tape their mouth and move swiftly. This is a little girl who couldn't fight back physically compared to an adult. They certainly wouldn't kill the person they are holding for ransom. Nor would they leave behind the evidence. If it was a molester. They would not invade a home at night when it's Christmastime. They would usually get to know the family first, gain their trust and find a situation to isolate JonBenet. I really don't get these conspiracies. But two parents who have no experience in kidnapping or commiting a murder would leave behind a sloppy scene, stage it half-assed and act suspiciously towards police.

It's really crazy how every theory I hear about has a "of course that's how it happened!" element to it. This certainly is a poser.

Did the autopsy reveal any more details on the blow to the head e.g. if she was likely struck from behind while walking or running away?

It's amazing that the cops, public wasn't screaming for John's head from Day 1. In the "ransom note" he actually quotes his own work bonus that year (can't recall the amount) as money being requested from the supposed kidnappers. Incredible. Right out of the 3 Stooges.

Well the one cop insisted he thought the parents did it from day one, R240. I forget his name but he quit over it.

The family was rich, white and respectable. So the police and the mainstream media went along with their bogus story. The victim was an angelic blonde child and the American public could not comprehend the family could harm their own child. I think we know better now.

I remember seeing John Ramsey in various interviews back then r242 and he came across as somewhat intimidating, a kind of closed up, zipped up, stoic and kind of a repressed bully. That's how he came across to me. Didn't like the guy and you could see his wife was just going along with whatever he was spouting. Very odd couple plus her emoting and all that. You should see all was not as being portrayed by these two.

You **could** see meant to say.

It wasn't the police as much as it was the DA, R242, (according to the documentaries I've seen).

If John was molesting JonBenet, did he also molest his other daughters when they were children? Or, did he just start with JonBenet? I know there were some theories that he molested JB because of Patti's cancer diagnosis and this is also what caused Burke's behavioral disorders. Does anyone have any theories?

I read that theory as well, R246, but it doesn’t make sense to me. If you’re not getting any from your wife because the poor thing is in and out of harsh chemo therapies, you’ll cheat on her with another woman.

Maybe a younger one, but not a child. And certainly not your own daughter.

R247- Rumor is that he molested his daughter from his first marriage, the one who died in a car accident. Isn't it beyond odd that JR immediately hired an attorney for his ex-wife? What nasty secrets could she have told investigators about her ex-husband? The daughter who died in the accident hated JR

R247, Personally know of a number of fathers raised in Conservative religious households who misinterpret their young daughter's desire for parental affection with sexual interest.

If their wives refuse sex and intimacy due to not wanting more babies or their age or medical condition these husbands opt out of going to a prostitute or having an affair. Why do you think sexual molestation is so rampant among the Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, etc?

R248 I did not know that. Interesting.

R249 You make a very good point. I didn’t. Guess I just can’t fathom the perversion..

Recall that the DA wanted to be re-elected and like many local officials feared that JR could easily outspend him with the best legal defense money could buy.

Also read a lot of evidence that JR molested his 1st daughter who died in that car accident. Rat also implied his 1st son could have been the culprit who molested JBR.

R251- Interesting about his first son. He has a subreddit on the case, asking for help to find the killer. Just go visit your disgusting father. Case solved.

[quote]Or, did he just start with JonBenet?

I was the hottest.

Remember JR's 3rd wife was also from a very religious family as the daughter of missionaries in Africa. She was twice divorced and had faced bankruptcy more than once.

Little information online about the age/sex of her children and possible grandchildren and their opinions of her 3rd husband. Couple supposedly met at a mutual friend's wedding.

Did JR seem like Prince Charming to her? At least he was very financially stable. She must be used to controlling men.

R252, Many children, even as adults, can't accept that their father molests his daughters and generally as a POS. Bet his 1st son still gets general financial gifts from dad.

[quote] [R247], Personally know of a number of fathers raised in Conservative religious households who misinterpret their young daughter's desire for parental affection with sexual interest.

Sounds like some BS to me.

The whole child beauty queen racket is beyond disturbing to me. It's one thing for a little girl to wear a fluffy princess dress and crown. But JonBenet was covered up in makeup and wearing provocative and revealing outfits that would make young Brooke Shields look like a nun. She was sexualized and paraded around on stage like a piece of meat. It's abusive to put that much pressure on your small child to look pretty and be a perfect little doll in front of a huge crowd like that.

R256- Sounds like a republican to me.

Molestation is about power. Many child molesters actually aren't pedophiles. They are equal opportunity sadistic rapists. It's about sexual gratification from humiliating their victim. Regardless of age. Many will molest adult women but also boys and girls as they are easy targets.

[quote] I remember seeing John Ramsey in various interviews back then [R242] and he came across as somewhat intimidating, a kind of closed up, zipped up, stoic and kind of a repressed bully. That's how he came across to me. Didn't like the guy and you could see his wife was just going along with whatever he was spouting.

I agree that John seemed closed up and zipped up. But that didn't jibe with the heavy involvement with kiddie beauty pageants. I realize that Patsy had participated, as an adult, in beauty pageants, and maybe Patsy was a trophy wife. But kiddie beauty pageants seem really low class. John was the boss of Patsy and allowed and maybe condoned this kiddie pageant shit.

This weighs in favor of him sexualizing JonBenet, allowing her to dress up like a grown woman with big hair, full makeup, etc.

R257- Absolutely. It was disturbing to watch those videos of her, dressed like a hooker or a stripper. Her dance routines were very sexually provocative, as you pointed out. JR wanted JB to be in those pageants.

[quote] Does anyone have any theories?

Oh there are theories galore, but unfortunately no facts to prove them.

[quote] But kiddie beauty pageants seem really low class.

Yes. The whole beauty pageant culture seemed to be designed for lower-class women to land a wealthy husband. Child beauty pageants reek of pedophilia because it's basically grooming your child to be a potential bride to an older man. Child marriage was and is still a thing in The US and exists in Evangelical circles. Beauty pageants are just really outdated in our modern society. Women 18 and over though should be able to participate. But I think child beauty pageants should be abolished. Replace them with child talent shows or something.

The CBS documentary seemed to suggest that there wasn't evidence of sexual assault, as the evidence could be easily explained by other things (transfer dna, not uncommon for young girls to have UTIs due to improper wiping). I'm kind of leaning towards Patsy or Burke as being the killer.

We have no child beauty pageants where I live, but it's important to remember that they are common in the south and that Patsy was especially invested in JB's "career."

I highly recommend watching the CBS documentary, it's really eye opening.

Not sure if this has been shared, but apparently this new doc is very well done.

[quote]kiddie pageant shit

Pics please.

The reason I don't think John did it is the blow to the head. Even if he's molesting her, he has so much power over her that it isn't necessary to kill her. Even if she threatens to tell, he knows no one in the community will believe her over him, and his wife would likely pretend it wasn't happening even if confronted with evidence. John was very good at controlling the narrative. He didn't need to kill a little girl to do that.

Interesting. PR did not write that RN. The so called expert that claimed she wrote it was hired by John.

A federal court ruled it highly unlikely that Patsy wrote the note, citing six certified handwriting experts. The court bemoaned the existence of self-proclaimed experts – without credentials – trying to wrangle their way into the case by accusing Patsy without scientific basis.[

R267 Sadly you're right about that.

I still don't know why so many people eliminate the idea of Patsy. She was going through chemo, was on many medications and had a lot of mental problems like perfectionism and other neurosis. I've never heard of a mentally stable pageant mom. JonBenet was 6-years-old. Anyone who's been around children between knows that's usually when they get the most annoying and confrontational. Patsy was going through a lot and the heavy doses of medication could have made her act aggressively. She could have gotten angry at JonBenet over something trivial like bedwetting and lost control. Discipling her too harsh and causing a serious injuring. She panics and tries to stage a kidnapping then hides the body but gets overwhelmed and calls the police. She is obsessed with her image, maintaining her marriage to John and protecting his reputation as well.

Burke hitting JB too hard could have happened too. They fought a lot like siblings do and sometimes young boys go too far in aggression. Patsy freaks out and tries to protect Burke. By staging a kidnapping and murder scene. Then just calling the police. She probably didn't think to get rid of the body but she also probably realized it was a pointless endeavor too. She would have been motivated by protecting Burke and again the family's image. Though Burke would have been too young to be charged with murder. Patsy didn't know.

John covering for her is not that far-fetched. He could have wanted to protect his son and also not deprive him of his mother.

Yes, but JR has an explosive temper, especially if his authority is challenged. If JB threatened to tell on him, or if he hurt her that time and could not calm her, stop her crying and have Patsy wake up and catch him in the act, I can totally see him losing his famous temper.

The facts are so bizarre and the early hours of the investigation were so badly bungled that no one theory really makes that much more sense than another. No matter who you think did it, you have to make a lot of assumptions to get there.

I respectfully disagree. JR was so obviously guilty that I am still stunned that he was allowed to escape justice. Had he been poor or black he would be in a prison cell right now.

If the crime scene, interrogations, and investigation had been handled properly, one or both of those parents would have ended up in jail. But there's a big jump from what seems obvious to what can be proved in court. And even though I do think JR did something, there's still plenty that remains unexplained and one of those things is Patsy's level of involvement/knowledge.

Serious financial safety and stability is worth a fuck of a lot. Patsy might go along for the ride for that reason only. She had another kid to raise, hospital bills to pay, etc. And she wasn’t from a wealthy background so she would have really appreciated it. I know a woman like this who would have married a cannibal to get financial security and live in a nice neighbourhood. She virtually did.

R240, the ransom note didn't ask for the amount of John's bonus ($123,000): it asked for the after-tax amount of his bonus ($118,000). Who does that? And who would know that amount was? Maybe not even Patsy. And who would ask a wealthy family for such a trivial sum of money? Apparently the "kidnapper" was deeply concerned with John's well-being and did not want to trouble him too much.

R267, I think someone as controlling as John would not want to run any risks.

Ugh, that after tax figure is even creepier, r275.

[quote]Had he been poor or black he would be in a prison cell right now.

Bullshit, just look at Asha Degree parents or Orsin / Orion West, or Kierra Coles

I know LE doesn't suspect the parents in the Asha Degree case, but something doesn't add up.

I respectfully disagree. JR was so obviously guilty that I am still stunned that he was allowed to escape justice. Had he been poor or black he would be in a prison cell right now.

R246, once the theory of John being the perpetrator set in, I spent quite some time digging. First, there is zero evidence he evidence he molested the first dead daughter, as in zero. Doesn’t mean he didn’t abuse her, but no evidence points to that thus far.

I think researched predators, and learned that there really is a sub-class of offenders who are strictly opportunistic. In other words, he may never offend. He will only offend given the correct circumstances. There is not an enormous remount of research on this, but it does exist and is accepted by the experts.

So…..his wife was dying of cancer, traveling constantly to the NIH for treatments, he never even went to a single treatment. So he has a specialized daughter, and a wife out of commission. We know that statistically speaking, the odds are 13 to 1 that the eldest male is the perpetrator.

On why he wrote the note instead of immediately dumping the body — think of all the evidence if he had tried to hide the body while Patsy slept. There was snow on the ground, which means that if he had indeed tried to hide her body off the property while Patsy slept, then when they got in the car to leave, she would have seen that tire tracks were in the snow, and how the hell would he explain that? So he *had* to wait. Also, imagine all the other risks if he tried to move her that night. What if Patsy heard the car starting? What if Patsy came down while he had the body in a suitcase? What would he do then? It actually makes sense when you accept as fact that John did it.

Last but not least, I have yet to find someone who can explain to me how if Patsy was the killer, or at least a conspirator, why would she write a note? What would be the plan behind that? It makes zero sense. However, it all makes sense when it’s John. A little boy could not strike someone with that much force. Imagine chopping wood, both arms extended over your head, and then coming down with all the power of your upper body. No child did that. Not to say it isn’t impossible, but it’s not plausible.

[quote]I know LE doesn't suspect the parents in the Asha Degree case

Yes, all ten year old girls go out of the house at 3am in the middle of a thunderstorm, to go on an adventure. The parents can't even get their story straight.

I think this was a kidnapping gone wrong executed by someone who saw a news story about John's successful computer security company.

Ok, I’ll bite r282. Then how did the killer know John’s *net* bonus salary, hmmmm? Wouldn’t that totally narrow the suspect list as very very few people would know that figure?

R282- ☝️John. @R280- Spot on, excellent analysis. I believe that I read that type of offender is called a " Situational molester." They only SA their victims under certain situations, taking advantage in special circumstances, such as a parent traveling for cancer treatment.

From the link:

Wiklund (1995) discusses the FBI's division of child molesters into situational molesters and preferential molesters. The situational molester is not primarily attracted to children for sexual gratification. The FBI estimates that situational molester has a lifetime average of 81 incidents of child abuse with two victims (p. 17). Situational molesters have adult sex partners but seek out children for sexual activity for a variety of reasons. Four patterns are listed:

Repressed. This type of molester has low self-esteem and poor coping strategies. He will turn to children when stressed. Repressed molesters often abuse their own children or coerce another child into sexual activity.

Morally indiscriminate. This type of molester is categorized as without conscience and engages in other types of abuse, as well as sexual abuse. He will target the weak and vulnerable and is indiscriminate in victim choice, abusing strangers and acquaintances.

Sexually indiscriminate. This behavior of this type of molester is most similar to a sex addiction. Variety of sexual activity appears to be the goal.

Inadequate. The inadequate molester is the sex offender who least resembles social and behavioral norms. He is characterized as a social misfit, an isolate, who appears unusual or eccentric. He may be mentally ill and prefers non-threatening sexual partners.

If the number matches (I heard there were several bizarre figures in the ransom note) it could easily have been published in the media as bonuses and exec salaries and stock deals are reported by publicly traded companies. Someone obsessed with John Ramsey did this. Maybe someone he stomped on in business or a random whacko who was stalking him and the family wanting to get rich quick.

I don’t believe Access Graphics was publicly traded. Regardless, his NET bonus pay would not be out there imho.

John and/or Patsy made a mistake with the ransom note. The intruder scenario would make more sense without the wacky note and staged crime scene.

If John was molesting Jonbenet, he didn't need to kill her. You need to put into context John's wealth and power, he was sort of Bezos of his day.

I buy the Burke theory, and John/Patsy covering up involuntary manslaughter by Burke. The stigma that would follow Burke is not something John's money and influence could buy out.

Linda Arndt, the first detective on the scene, noted there was no sign of intrusion, and neither John nor Patsy noticed when the kidnappers did not call by the time indicated in the note. I think Linda visited Patsy on her death bed to try to coerce a confession, and Patsy died protecting Burke.

R286- Someone raped and brutally murdered a little girl bc they were angry at John?! Seriously? They knew their way around that huge, dark, cluttered house? They knew where the pineapple, writing pen and pad, were? They changed JB's clothes and convinced her to voluntarily walk down the basement stairs with them? Once they begin to SA her, she did not scream or cry out for her parents? They left no footprints or tire tracks in the snow? No one saw or heard a thing that night?

R289, I’ve learned over many years of the traditional Ramsey Christmas discussion that there is no reasoning with them. They are first cousins to MAGATS.

R265, thank you for linking this, it was excellent.

I think I've made 2 small conclusions, from this new doc, things I hadn't considered before.

Patsy couldn't have written the note, for 2 reasons: 1 - if she had just murdered her daughter in a rage, she could not have calmly written those 3 pages, and 2 - if Patsy had written the note, that says "if you call the police, she'll be beheaded," she would not have called the police at 5 in the morning. She would have followed her own instructions. She would have wanted to get the body out of the house before calling anyone.

Patsy didn't write the note. Burke couldn't have written the note. So, that leaves John, or, a stranger.

Yes, they are, R290.

I agree, R291, but there's one thing. If John did it, then why would he leave the note before the scene could be properly staged - meaning, why wouldn't he have cleared the cobwebs from the window etc...?

R293- I think he was counting on Patsy being too terrified of the kidnapper hurting ( The RN stated that JB would be beheaded if LE were called) JB that she would not call the police yet, buying him time to remove her body via the suitcase before LE arrived. But it didn't work bc she DID call them right away.

Ah, maybe, R294. Still, you'd think he'd have fixed the scene perfectly before he left the letter and alerted Patsy.

All this speculation and we'll probably never know the truth.

I think Patsy didn't read the whole note. She read some of it, and not surprisingly, panicked. John didn't expect her to call the police instantly.

^ correct.

Most fascinatingly, on the SolvingJonBenet blog, the author managed to show that the first page of the note was literally a tracing off of a tablet, an ingenious way to disguise natural handwriting. He set up a Word document, played with both margins and font, and got it to perfectly match for white dome time, then it abruptly switches up freehand. John was a techie, he easily could have typed the note with the auto-save turned off (remember that in the pre-cloud era? If you didn’t save your work you were screwed.

R295- I do not believe he intended to kill her. I think he went too far with the SA and hurt her, causing her to scream and cry loudly. He killed her to quieten her bc he wasn't about to get caught. He didn't plan this bc he never planned to kill her until he lost control of the situation.

R297, that sounds pretty complicated to me, and time-consuming. Plus, a tablet, in 1996?

Tablet means a writing pad.

You said Word document, margins and font. So, first he typed it, and then PRINTED it, and then copied it on his tablet.

Yeah, this didn't happen, sorry.

R298, I agree it sounds complex, but John worked in cyber-security which makes it less complicated. Tracing an actual font is a most excellent way to disguise handwriting.

There's no evidence she suffered a sexual assault that night, R298. Experts even disagree whether or not she ever did.

I still think it was one of the family. All three of them are plausible suspects in my mind.

R297- Yes, I remember reading about this. Hasn't this been proven? I remember that it was, but that was years ago and I could be wrong.

He was grooming her, that is the reason he used a paint brush. It was the correct size, or so he thought. It is sickening to even type this, but this is what child molesters do. They stretch the child's vagina. But he must have really hurt her that night. One neighbor heard a scream that night, long before PR woke up that morning. He hurt her and she would not stop crying. ( God, the poor child.) She probably threatened to tell on him. But I think most of all he could not calm her down. PR was just upstairs. JR made the decision to murder his child instead of admitting he had been molesting her. This is what I feel happened.

R305, are you getting off on the idea of JB being molested on the night she was killed or something? There is no evidence that she was sexually assaulted on the night she died, so can you quite with that misinformation already?

R301, I don’t recall the exact details on that, but you are likely right, that it was printed then traced. I can only tell you that the receipts are out there, but I can’t seem to find the original post. The blog author makes a strong case that the note was pre-planned, which is beyond horrific to ponder.

R297 electronic tablets were not invented until a solid decade after this murder.

R306- Fuck off, you ridiculous pos. We are talking about the murder of a little girl and if you had bothered to read her autopsy before running your uninformed mouth , you would know that the ME certainly did think there was evidence of sexual abuse.

To the folks drinking the Ramsey kool-aid: John Ramsey invested his money in lawyers to defend himself, and not much hunting down this foreign faction that murdered his daughter,

OMG, read the autopsy, R309. If there was sexual assault, it occurred at least 10 days before the murder. You're the one running your uniformed mouth. Now go away and take your fantasies with you so the rest of us can stick to the facts.

R311- How fucking ignorant are you? Oh, but it was 10 days before? So she was being sexually abused. But it was 10 days before so it certainly could have absolutely nothing to do with her murder? Is that you, John? You filthy child killing pedophile?

Too close to the truth for you, John? You can still be convicted and spend the rest of your worthless life in prison. We all know how you haunt these forums and websites that discuss this case. You child killing pedophile.

You're the one running your mouth off claiming that the girl was being raped the night she died, R312. She was not. You're spreading misinformation which isn't helpful, you moron. Go flick yourself off somewhere else.

R314- Prove that. I will wait.

R314- My! What an EXPLOSIVE temper you have. Just like John .

I might be on team Intruder Did It.

The weirdest thing is the DNA. Whose was is? It didn't belong to anyone in the Ramsey family. Still, everything else points to one of the immediate family members.

Here's the link to the CBS documentary.

Part One

Part Two

Probably touch DNA from the packaging, R138.

John carrying JB that way like a manikin is telling

I'm not sure, R321, because the same DNA was on her panties and on her pajama bottoms. The touch DNA from packaging was determined to have an X chromosome, so belonging to a female (if I remember correctly), the other DNA is male. Plus, there was DNA under her fingernails which also didn't belong to any of her family members.

R322- Yes, very. That is not a reaction from a parent.

R324- Sorry, a normal reaction. He carried her as if he was repulsed by her body and did not want to touch her at all. Patsy collapsed in sobs, hugging her child, seemingly trying to warm her. That is what a grieving parent would do. A parent will not,can not, accept that their child is dead.

R324- My apologies, I am answering the post in the wrong thread bc we have two JB threads going.

One thing is that the CBS documentary proves that a child of nine or 10 would have been capable of causing a skull fracture in a smaller child. Part of me thinks Burke did it and that was my gut feeling when the case first broke. He may have been jealous of her and all the attention she got and hit her in a rage without intending to kill her and the parents covered up for him. He sure was odd in the original police interviews.

I hope that's not true, but it's plausible.

R327- But why , if true, would J&P send him off with the neighbors that morning? How could they chance that he would not say something incriminating? Let something slip about the murder?

She was an exquisite child

I don't know, R328, but did you see in the police interview where he says, "I know what happened"? His behaviour was just fucking weird and he didn't seem bothered at all that his sister was just murdered. He also said that he wasn't afraid, strange for a still small child who would be vulnerable to kidnapping/murder himself.

R330- I really think he is damaged by all of this. His parents were dysfunctional, to put mildly. JB was the favorite child in that family. Her mother's mini-me. It is my opinion that JB was being sexually abused. The bed wetting, frequent UTI's. If true, there is every possibility that Burke suffered abuse as well. He was smearing his feces and that is a red flag for abuse. Then his sister is not only murdered in their home, but his parents are the main suspects. The media focus on her death goes on still. He lost his mother. But i really think something was wrong with him before that.

John Ramsey is no longer rich. He lives in a small house valued at around $350k in Charlevoix, MI, and Burke lives no too far away in a house valued at around $200k.

While John’s net worth was around $6MM before the murder, much of his money was eaten up by attorneys and he also hasn’t worked in 25+ years, because no one will hire him.

Also, John and Burke’s modest living arrangements prove that Burke never saw a cent from the CBS lawsuit a few years ago. I think he was asking for $100MM?

The Ramsey’s walked away because CBS was willing to go to court and the discovery process could have been very damaging to the Ramsey’s claims of innocence

That's why part of me thinks Burke did it, accidentally, in a fit of anger, R333.

Here's the autopsy report by John E Meyer MD, pathologist. Looks like cause of death was asphyxia strangulation. Also noted: "Abrasion and vascular congestion of vaginal mucosa."

How did John, who had no technical skills, get to be a CEO? Probably he had blackmail on someone in the military. He was unqualified and his "Successful" company was obviously just a division of Martin Marietta. Smells like a payoff.

[quote]He sure was odd in the original police interviews.

He was acting oddly. Almost like he was playfully seducing the male detectives.

R280 as I said upthread you're jumping to a whole lot of conclusions with a whole lot of speculation and still much is left unexplained. If John was the lone killer, he wasted a whole lot of time staging the body and writing and re-writing a ridiculous unnecessarily long ransom note which included words and phrases Patsy liked to use herself. It makes no sense that he'd be concerned about Patsy waking up and catching him disposing of the body, but not that she might wake up and notice he's not in bed and maybe even check on the kids and see that JB is not in bed and comes down and finds him writing a long-ass ransom note on her notepad. It also makes no sense that he'd go to all that trouble just to stop Patsy from calling the police and then... he sits back and lets her call the police anyway. Doesn't try and stop her, snatch the phone from her or scare her by screaming that if the kidnappers are nearby and see police they may kill JB in a panic, etc. Doesn’t pull a Lundegaard and yell “No cops, that’s final! This is my deal Patsy!” There's zero indication John did or said anything at all to even try and make her hesitate. He doesn’t even try and stop her from calling their friends over, which only increases the risk that he’ll never have the chance to dispose of the body. And then when the “kidnappers” promised call doesn’t come, Patsy doesn’t even seem to notice. Not even the slightest exhibited concern that disobeying the ransom note might have further endangered her daughter.

As to why Patsy would write the note--first of all, she didn't have to write the note to be a co-conspirator. She could have been staging the body while he wrote it. But she would have done it for similar reasons John would have. This was not a well-thought out premeditated plan, they're in a panic with a short window of time to act. But they also have just enough time to do too much. There are two of them working on the staging and note, so the amount of time spent on those isn't as implausible because neither is worried about the other catching them. So they are overthinking it and whipping one another up so much they go way over the top with the note and the staging. They only have a few hours before they are supposed to get on a plane, so it's not as though they can do a quick dump of the body and spend the next day or two coming up with a plan. They have to report their daughter as hurt, dead, or missing early morning at the latest. They go with missing, and they figure a ransom note will give them the most plausible or maybe even sympathetic story. Patsy calls the police because again they HAVE to--they're not just hanging out at home for the next few days with time to concoct a story, they have people waiting for them to get on a plane, and how on earth will they ever be able to explain to anyone that their daughter was killed and/or kidnapped and they didn't report it right away?

Now, that version of events ALSO has plenty of holes, but not more so than the version that John did it alone. Same problem with the version that says Burke did it or was involved. And so on.

The elaborate staging and ransom note is not how normal parents would react if one of their kids was severely wounded by the other child. They would immediately dial 911 and seek to get the injured child medical attention. Their first priority would be to save their child’s life.

If Burke swung a flashlight, hit JonBenet in the head, and caused her death, the Ramsey’s easily could have explained it away as a terrible, unintentional accident and they never would have become infamous murder suspects.

Since JonBenet’s autopsy clearly states her cause of death was strangulation, the killer must have known she was alive while he/she strangled the child. This is what doesn’t make sense to me. Why would a parent strangle an injured child rather than get them help?

Because they're taking no chances that she might regain consciousness and reveal who injured her and why.

R339 no, the autopsy said the cause was "asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma." It doesn't conclude which happened first. So we don't know for sure if she was hit first and then strangled, vice versa, or if she was hit while being strangled. It's also at least theoretically possible, for example, that she was hit and appeared dead and then strangled as part of staging, but that actually accelerated her death.

[quote]Then how did the killer know John’s *net* bonus salary, hmmmm?

I read that the paystub was on the table. But that could be just a redditor talking out of his ass.

It was Burke in the kitchen with pineapple and a flashlight and John finished her off.

If the parents had ANYTHING to do with it, why did they call the police at the crack of dawn? Surely they could have used more time in devising a solution to their dilemma. Patsy didn't want to go to Michigan anyway, they could easily have canceled their plans, gotten rid of JBs body, and then called the police. Meanwhile, Patsy calling the police with a dead body still in the house? She obviously did not know JB was there.

They called at the crack of dawn because that was the latest plausible time Patsy would "notice" JB missing. They were supposed to get on a plane early that morning, and I think they were picking someone up on the way to the airport as well. I think some other family member was already on their flight to MI when she was reported missing and was notified by flight crew. There was no housekeeper or nanny in the home with them, so Patsy would be the one wrangling 2 young children in the early morning hours to get them ready to go for the trip. So she goes down for her coffee to start a very busy day and lo and behold right before she'd be heading up the the children's rooms to get them, up she discovers a ransom note.

Casually cancelling those plans at the very last second for any reason would be even more suspicious when JB coincidentally turns up dead/missing right after a last-possible-second change of holiday travel plans.

^It was John's older children who were already on their plane from GA to MI when she was reported missing. That's how last minute it was.

[quote]JonBenét’s half-brother, John Andrew Ramsey, said he was getting ready to meet his father’s family, including JonBenét, in Michigan the day after Christmas when he found out that she was missing. He was already on the airplane waiting to take off from Atlanta, where he was spending the holidays with his mother and sister. “I think I was paged or I was handed a note by one of the flight attendants saying that I needed to call home,” recalled John Andrew Ramsey, who said he and his sister immediately changed course to Denver. “I yelled and screamed and kicked to get on the airplane to Denver… I remember just thinking and processing it all.”

R308, *paper* tablet, i.e., notepad.

I remember video of Burke's interrogation really pissed her off.

She is said to have snatched Burke by the arm telling him, "Jesus Christ, Burke! Don't you know...we only present hole to Daddy and pageant officials!"

That stuff about the ransom demand being equal to the father's net bonus after taxes is incredibly disturbing and would seem to point clearly to John or Patsy as the writers of the note. My question is, did the note refer specifically to John's bonus? (I can't believe the writer of the note would have been THAT stupid, but even stupider things have been done by inexperienced perps.) Or did others eventually realize the amount demanded conformed exactly to John's bonus after taxes? Sorry, I don't have time to do all the research to find this out for myself, so I figured I'd just ask here.

The pay stub for his bonus was apparently very close to the pad with the note. Someone could have seen it.

^Bullshit!

The ransom note doesn't mention a bonus, it just directs John to withdraw precisely that amount in specified bill denominations. That number was likely chosen to raise the inference that this was done by someone with knowledge of John's salary or a business insider. John named a former employee or coworker as a person who might have a grudge against him and I think he told police about the bonus as soon as they arrived that morning.

Thanks, R352. Of course, then that raises the question as to why a kidnapper would be so considerate as to demand only the amount that JR received as his bonus -- after taxes, no less.

Really, the mind boggles.

I have not read the autopsy report. According to people who have, including the ex-Boulder City police chief, it explains that JonBenet was first hit with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight. Then, time passed; specifically, forty minutes to two hours. The killer came back and garroted her, presumably as a part of the crime scene staging. In other words, someone thought they had killed her, yet did not leave the house. This person, instead, stayed and, presumably, spent some time upstairs writing the bonkers “ransom note”—and then returned to the basement. The crime could not have been committed by an intruder. No intruder would bash in someone’s skull, and then wait in a house with three other people in it, drafting and revising a letter.

Maybe it's time to round up some new suspects. Patsy's father Don Paugh was in town. He had an apartment in Boulder and I could see Patsy covering for her dad.

R121 it makes perfect sense if the intention of the note was to scare the shit out of Patsy so John could convince her to flee with Burke while he stayed behind to “deal with the kidnappers’ demands”. Meaning he would then dispose of the body.

John did nothing to try and convince Patsy to flee, nor did he try to discourage her from calling the police. If the note was to dissuade her from calling and flee, it would have said right at the top do not call the police and get your wife and son out of there. Not calling the police is not even mentioned until near the end of the note. Would he really expect an innocent Patsy to sit there and read line by line a nonsensical ransom note all the way to the third page instead of panic and rush to get help as soon as she realized her daughter was gone?

R357 I absolutely agree, there are many things that don’t make sense. John didn’t discourage her significantly from calling the police, at least that we are aware of. We weren’t in the house and their accounts of what happened seem to be varied. But that does seem odd (perhaps she was hysterically adamant about calling the police and he realized he couldn’t change her mind without convincing her). If both of them were in on it, it also makes no sense that they would write the note and then call the police knowing the dead body was in the basement. It also makes no sense that an intruder would write that note and leave her body in the basement. One thing that I suppose is possible is that a mentally deranged/ill person could have done all this and didn’t really have a coherent plan, but I would think someone that would have left evidence all over the place. That there’s not means that doesn’t make sense in that case. So I think one of the adults knew and the other didn’t, with the obviously weak plan to remove the body after the innocent parent was out of the house. An admittedly shitty plan.

R352 That awful piece of shit was sly trying to pin this on someone he loathed.

It seems really stupid for whoever wrote the ransom note--if it were either Patsy or John--to specify that amount. They must have known it would draw suspicion. Then again, maybe John thought it would point to someone who had a grudge.

I think John being a CEO would less likely mess up this plan. CEOs pretty much have to be logical and linear minded. Patsy on the other hand was obsessive compulsive and heavily doped up. She seems like someone who would act completely hysterically and frequently changing her actions.

My theory is that John dictated the contents of note to implicate Patsy if it hit the fan. He’s very methodical

Let's not forget as well that CEOs are known to be psychopaths.

Betty White did it.

Just so we're all clear here.

John is INNOCENT.

Now pass the tequila.

R362 Obviously he made her write it .

A federal court ruled it highly unlikely that Patsy wrote the note, citing six certified handwriting experts. The court bemoaned the existence of self-proclaimed experts – without credentials – trying to wrangle their way into the case by accusing Patsy without scientific basis.[29]

Handwriting analysis is a pseudoscience. It’s the content of the ransom note that is significant.

R368- I agree. JR wrote it.

Totally r368! It’s all about the content and the context. R362, I agree 100% he wrote it to implicate Patsy too, should he get pinched. While the note does not threaten about calling police immediately, it does indeed use threats of violence against their child for failing to comply — obviously, just the opening line is meant to frighten her!! What would freak a southern mom out? “Foreigners” kidnapping their babies, yes? Multiple FBI experts stated that the content is one of the most violent, menacing, threatening notes ever written in a homicide.

If you just follow what John did every day for two weeks, you can see the constant set-up of Patsy right after the murder, snd it continues for years actually, but most especially during the few times they “cooperated” with cops and gave interviews. Over and over, he indirectly implicates her. The police hadn’t even accused her yet, but when John got in front of cameras, he continued to make sure the public knew that PATSY was innocent. He’s a con man. Once she died, he just pivots to Burke, and starts barking about how innocent BURKE is — anything to put the spotlight onto anyone else but him.

The word that an expert used to describe John (wish I could remember who) is “diabolical”. He was not only a situational molester of his own daughter, but he then turned around and implicated his wife, best friends, his eldest son, Burke, their housekeeper, the sweet old Santa Claus dude, on and on and on. He took good people and threw them away to keep himself out of prison. He really is a monster, and it is grotesque that once again, the rich white guy gets away. America has two justice systems, one for the rich, and a separate system for the rest of us. Fucking vile.

R341 It is said she was strangled first, which was why there was no blood from the head bashing. I could be wrong because I have read differing reports depending on the source, but it would make sense.

Also, we’ve been doing these threads for years. Here are the gaps that need to be filled:

JonBonet’s medical records.

John’s work computer tracing.

John’s travels to Amsterdam.

John’s handwriting pre-murder.

John’s ex-wife needs to spill.

Also, if memory serves, he failed his lawyers polygraph. The administrator of the test I believe is still alive, and I believe his office was even robbed of John’s results or something weird.

Linda “Crazy Eyes” Ardnt needs to publish her promised book. Linda needs to at least give a final interview on her last conversation with Patsy.

Alex Hunter needs to spill — will never happen.

Other lawyers involved need to spill — will never happen.

Burke admits what he actually remembers — will never happen.

John’s third wife spills — will never happen.

I think the first few are possible breakthroughs in the case because they don’t rely on John or his minions. I truly believe her medical records are a treasure trove of information that could strongly point towards sex abuse. I think I also remember something about her school records that could be valuable too.

R371, I think there is not consensus on what order her injuries happened in.

R330 Burke has moderate to severe autism. He wasn’t a normal child and he probably is not a normal adult. Its pretty obvious he had issues so I don’t find that behavior strange.

I am in the camp of an intruder did it but I do know if my child was murdered and tortured the way JB was I would not have the composure to rehash it in televised interviews over and over again.

There were no scratches on her neck as if she tried to remove the garrote or any defensive wounds on her hands. It's reasonable to conclude that the head injury was first.

R370&R372! Excellent post! He also, while throwing her under the bus, mind-fucked her by manipulating her into believing he was actually DEFENDED her, when in reality he was implicating her in everyway. Isn't it so convenient for him that the handwriting experts HE hired implicated Patsy, and totally cleared him? In those interviews , he could not stand to touch her, and he never did. She would try to take his hand and he would outwardly cringe. He is an evil, depraved pedophile and child killer. I have never thought it was just a coincidence that he used Patsy's paint brush to molest and garrote his little girl with. First of all, it cast guilt on PR, and it is also an act of contempt for his wife, imo. He is a decrepit pervert and abuser. One sick fuck.

R376, thanks for the kind words.

I forgot about that angle of the paintbrush — that it was yet another example of how much John held Patsy in contempt and disgust. You are right about his body language, he acts like a great white shark to me. His eyes are just cold, unfeeling, and also calculating. He’s just creepy, and he clearly hated Patsy. I remember reading an excerpt from their book, Patsy talked about how they hadn’t made love in years, and then when they finally did, two souls became one again type of thing. It was highly revolting to read because I already believed John hated her, so you could just feel her desperation to keep the marriage together, plus her need to believe in his innocence when doubt would creep in. She’s like a desperate sorority girl over him, while he’s so repulsed by her he did not even try to get down with her for years! If I had known Patsy, I would have been a true blue friend to her by letting her know, “girl, he just not into you.” It’s so awkward to read her passage on this because she got all sensual, it was gross because it showed her entire cognitive dissonance. Like she’s getting wet for John, gag me with a spoon!

He desperately tried to control his temper, but it slipped out several times in interviews when anyone dared challenge him in the slightest. It was obvious what a rage filled sob he was. I still can't believe PR confided in her housekeeper about their sex life. That mf'er just oozes slime. Repulsive man.

After many years or reading most of the books and website on the case, I have the opposite theory about John and Patsy. R377 I agree John seemed to despise Patsy, especially when they appeared in interviews and photos together after the murder. I notice she would try to look in his eyes, and he would attempt to avoid her gaze. Patsy would often say how much JohnBennte loved John and John wouldn't even acknowledge Patsy when she said these kind things. In my opinion, the reason is that he knew she killed JonBennet. That's why he doesn't look Patsy in the eye and why he reels from her touch. He KNOWS. They never spoke of it, but he figured it out that morning and resented her for it.

So it was either John, Patsy, Burke or an intruder. Thanks for clearing that up.

R380- STFU, John. Your bullshit won't fly here. You despicable piece of filth.

I find it compelling that many theorize that John wrote the ransom note to try to stop Patsy from calling the police and to try to control her with terror and to give him an excuse for leaving the house with the body in the suitcase. However, no one seems to be theorizing that Patsy could have written the note to get John out of the house and to keep John from calling the police. If she can use the note to get him to leave the house to get the money, that gives her time to get rid of the body and to make up the next stage of her rambling narrative. Essentially, in my opinion, the note seems to be written by Patsy, and it could have been written with the motives that people say John had for writing it--to get John out of the house, but to do so for Patsy to have time to get rid of the body without him knowing. She ended up calling the police because she could tell he was totally suspicious of the note when he read it and her story was falling apart in John's eyes. She was terrified John was already figuring out she had killed their daughter. She would have rather faced the police than John. She later (years later) kept saying she had never even READ the note, which seems a lie.

R382- 🤡

R379 and R382: John would have turned Patsy over to the police in a second if he actually thought she was guilty.

R384 I think he wouldn't turn her in because her guilt would reflect badly on him, the family, his judgement, and on their children. If she did it, she was insane and he likely took some role in driving her to insanity and wanted to keep her insanity a secret. She's a trophy wife, but if she's an unstable nutcase, that makes him look bad. Also, as much as I believe he loathed her for what she had done, he also felt sorry for her because he knew she would die soon due to her cancer and that she loved JonBennet dearly. He loved Patsy in his own warped way and was also repulsed by her--typical longterm Christian hetero marriage.

R385- He tried to throw his own son under the bus, along with every friend he ever had. He did everything he could to railroad his wife. His daughter from his first Marriage HATED him. JR hired an attorney for his first wife.

But did John really throw Burke under the bus? He seems to be fairly protective of Burke. Also, if John really wanted to railroad Patsy, he could have easily pinned it on her, as that's what the first group of police were trying to build as their case before John went after the Boulder police. The detectives who were onto Patsy were reassigned as they were building a case against her.

If she had DNA not from a family member under her fingernails, they should do one of those genealogical searches to try and find out whose it is.

Does anyone remember how in one of the interviews, Patsy shakes her head "no" when asked if she thought JB had been kidnapped at first while John says, "yes" at the same time. Then Patsy suddenly starts nodding her head. I think this was pointed out on the CBS documentary.

Yes, R389, I remember watching that and it was very revealing, imo.

In the end, Patsy was a patsy,

I would love to know what she was talking and thinking about the last few months of her life and how she truly felt about John. He only stayed with her so he could still control the narrative. Had he left her she may have started to doubt his involvement.

So the marks on her were for sure from Burke's train set?

R393, no, we don’t know that. There were marks, that’s all that is certain. One of the detectives theorized that they were from a stun gun; other people have argued they were from Burke’s new train set.

And what of the pineapple? The John and Patsy at first claimed she didn't have any. No way did an intruder break in, give JB pineapple, and then murder her. That makes no sense.

R394, the stun gun marks are debunked. Train tracks might be legit.

R354/R371, the autopsy does not say whether she was hit or strangled first, and it does not say how far apart those 2 things happened. The prevailing theory seems to be that she was hit first and then strangled at least in part to stage the scene, but medical experts have disagreed on which might have happened first.

[quote]The coroner listed the official cause of death as strangulation associated with head trauma. Adams County Coroner Mike Dobersen said he reviewed the autopsy photographs and thinks there would have been much more internal bleeding inside the brain if JonBenét had been struck first and strangled later.

[quote] But Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

Denver is a leading site for skull fractures? Who knew?

I'm back to thinking it was Burke. I think he was jealous of his sister, she pissed him off and he flew into a rage and accidentally killed her. Nothing else makes sense.

The ME and some other experts aren't sure if she had suffered SA, a lot of the experts said that the evidence was inconclusive, (some of the inflammation could have been caused by irritants such as improper wiping) her pediatrician saw no signs of it, and the injuries she had were partially healed, so if she had been a victim of SA, it very well could have been Burke who did it in the days/weeks before she was killed.

The fact that his voice was heard in the background of the 911 call, his creepy behavior and avoidance of simple questions in the first police interview, plus his statement, "I know what happened" seals it in my mind. In the second police interview, the way he was stretched out in the chair was downright cocky. One of Patsy's friends even said that Burke had hit his sister once before with a golf club and his smearing feces in her room is indicative of how much he hated JB. He was creepy af during the Dr. Phil interview too.

I think John and Patsy panicked and covered for him as their perfect world was about to come crashing down around him. Their behavior was irrational, but once they got going they couldn't stop as the wheels were already in motion. She was probably dead a long time before John and Patsy decided to cover up for Burke, which gave them the time to try and stage everything. Their daughter was dead and they wanted to protect their son. The pineapple in her stomach is weird since both John and Patsy denied giving her a snack that night. They'd have no reason to lie about that, but, they wouldn't have necessarily known if Burke got up and made himself a snack and shared some with JB. Remember how weird he got in the police interview when they showed him the pic of a bowl of pineapple??

It's fucked up, but the whole case is strange, which is why it's had international attention for more than two decades now.

Patsy took JB to pediatrician numerous times in last year of her life .

Yes, and he said he saw no signs of abuse, R400. They interview him in at least one of the many documentaries about the case.

Upthread some people have mentioned Burke being autistic. That may very well be, but that is no excuse for smearing feces in his sister's room, which the police found on the day she was killed. He could have been up there smearing his shit on her belongings while his parents were trying to cover up for him.

Burke was a creepy kid while JB was easygoing, friendly, popular at school, and had a lot of attention on her. Patsy's friend even said that once JB came along all of the attention was placed on her and Burke was kind of pushed aside. It's not fair, but if he was difficult, it's easy to see why the parents, especially Patsy, devoted themselves to JB.

Autistic children are hard to love and bond with.

Also, if the marks on her body were from the train set, then it makes sense that a child would "poke" at the body. An adult wouldn't do that.

Can a 9 year old the strength to strangle?

Yes, R402, and too many people make excuses for terrible behavior. Has Burke actually been diagnosed with autism, or are some people just assuming so because he's so odd? Not all abnormal people/children are autistic.

Experts think the blow to the head is what killed her, or at least rendered her brain dead. Burke could have hit her with the flashlight (it's been proven that a nearly 10 year old DOES have the strength to fracture the skull of a smaller child). The garroting could have been just overkill and part of staging, R404. At least, that's what the forensics team in the CBS show said.

John loved the CBS show . It made Burke look suspicious and that was his plan all along

R407, where exactly did you hear that John loved the CBS show? Do you think John forced all those experts to get together and frame Burke?

Burke looked suspicious because he is. His voice on the 911 tape is clear, it was him who said, "I know what happened," it was him who smeared shit in his sister's room, it was him who pretended not to know what a bowl of pineapple was. John and Burke are close to this day, and it was John who said, "yes" when one of the interviewers asked "did you think she was kidnapped?" He was covering for Burke and pushing the intruder theory as much as Patsy was.

None of the players in this case are good, but to me, all signs point to Burke.

R408, how would John be close to Burke if he murdered Jon bonet ? There would be serious resentment

R409, he's his father and maybe he's known all along that Burke is "off" and wanted to protect him. There are other parents of children who murdered their sibling who still love their child despite the horrific thing they did. Also, Burke was so young at the time which would have made Patsy and John both feel even more protective. Emotions are complex and even though they're close, there may well be some underlying resentment from both John and Burke. If Burke did it, he's been going along with a lie for over two decades too, and it was his parents who put that onus on him to go along with the story. He certainly didn't come up with the cover up story and staging of the scene even if he did kill her.

Anyone know if adult Burke is still into the scat scene?

I have a theory as why the upstairs ( actual Family living )was in such disarray . I think Patsy was depressed due to her miserable marriage and didn’t have the energy or passive aggressive to annoy John. You would think they would have a cleaning lady for second floor. The first floor in its classy, immaculate vibe was a facade and second floor was a reflection on the dysfunctional family

^The did have a maid and they had had a big party the night before Christmas Eve, with many people in the house. The house had been cleaned up in advance of that. The maid came 2 days a week, I believe, tho I may have forgotten that detail. Maybe the maid didn't have time to do the upstairs floor, maybe the R's were such incredible slobs that they trashed the upper floor in just a couple of days. I expect it's a combo of both factors. JBR's bedroom, in the police video from Xmas night, taken after everyone but police was out of the house, looks like it has the clutter from about a week that a little girl would have created. People typically don't make very young kids keep their rooms neat and tidy, especially ones who have maids to clean up after them.

R399, I’m sorry, but you are misinformed. The inflammation hinting at sex abuse was actually up inside her vaginal canal just below the hymen; the tissue was inflamed and looked like a healing abrasion. If memory serves, her doctor wanted to do a pelvic exam, but Patsy talked him out of it.

There ‘s a lot of information posted here that can’t be verified. Sorry to point at r414, but this is an example. I had read that she did not have signs of abuse, yet the poster cites an example of it. I know this is very difficult, but can you point to somewhere in official documents where this was revealed? I don’t mean a website where someone wrote this, I mean something in the autopsy or official reports. Sorry again, r414, but like others, I read that the SA stuff was all debunked.

R414, that's why I said IF she had suffered SA, the injuries were partially healed at the time of her death. If that injury was evidence of SA, it could have been Burke who assaulted her. JB's pediatrician made no mention of wanting to do a pelvic from what I remember, he just said he saw no signs of abuse and that she appeared to be a normal, happy, healthy child.

There's pretty much consensus that JB was sexually assaulted the night of the murder, and by the paintbrush at least. What more might have happened that night, and how much might have been part of staging, is undetermined. What's speculative is whether there were signs of older sexual abuse/trauma. Some experts have concluded based on the autopsy and surrounding circumstances (esp. the bedwetting) that she likely was previously SA. But that's not "proof"--that's an educated guess. But other experts have said there are other explanations for her inflammation, etc. (including something as basic as poor hygiene) and would not presume SA without more indicators. Her pediatrician saw her frequently and said he saw no signs of abuse. And he did conduct vaginal exams of her but not with a speculum because she was too young:

(From taped telephone conversation) How many times did you give her a vaginal examination?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Well, it was five or six times in that three-year period.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We asked him to specifically review all notes that might pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.

September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea. April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.

October 1994 -- a routine physical. No problems noted, though some indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr. Beuf says 20 percent to 25 percent of children that age wet the bed.

March 1995 -- abdominal pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem.

August 1996 -- another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal. We asked what he made of this number of complaints?

(From taped telephone conversation) Would that be unusual?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: For a child that age, certainly not. They don't wipe themselves very well after they urinate. And it's something which usually is curable by having them take plain water baths or learning to wipe better. But if you have four-year-old kids, you know how hard that is. The amount of vaginitis which I saw on the child was totally consistent with little girls her age.

DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.

DIANE SAWYER: Did you see in any of these examinations any sign of possible sexual abuse?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: No, and I certainly would have reported it to the social service people if I had. That's something that all of us in pediatrics are very acutely aware of.

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) And some other notes. Dr. Beuf says he last saw JonBenet Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus infection. A couple of other things. Dr. Beuf says he has turned in people he has suspected of physical and sexual abuse in his career, and that he not only looks for physical evidence, but personality changes in the children involved. And he says he saw none of that with JonBenet Ramsey. And PrimeTime consulted other pediatric experts about JonBenet's records, and they agreed with Dr. Beuf's analysis that there was nothing unusual there for a girl her age. When we come back, we will take you to the Ramsey home.

Thanks, r417.

They’re going to stick a paintbrush up her to stage after an accident with Burke? Fucking bullshit. An accident with Burke isn’t a crime. What is this evil little boy narrative? It’s so fucking stupid. John Ramsey did it. Daddy moneybags and Patsey just fuckin took it and helped.

Okay, R419, stick to your narrative if you'd like since you don't like facts such as the ones presented by R417 and made available in numerous documentaries on the subject, police interview footage and even JB's autopsy report.

The rest of us will deal with the facts we have. By the way, the abrasion was healed, so there was no staging a SA that night. However, Burke did smear his shit in her room, he did say that he knew what happened, he did previously hit her in the head with a golf club, he did pretend like he didn't know what a bowl of pineapple looked like and seemed unbothered by the fact that his sister had just been murdered.

Lots of comments being scrubbed from this thread pretty quickly after they have been posted. This thread is being hawked.

The Ramseys are not the most likable bunch but they didn't kill their daughter. A sick intruder did it and the perfect storm of him / them being able to get away with it ensued.

^Ridiculous. The "ransom" note is insane and had it not been planted where it was NO ONE would have ever considered for 5 minutes that someone had broken into that house to kill that little girl. Are you in fact John Ramsey??

The one and only thing that makes me wonder about an intruder is the DNA (not the touch DNA) on her clothing and under her fingernails, R422. If that's the case, then the intruder would have had to have been in the home before the family arrived home from the party.

Otherwise, I believe it to be one of the Ramseys, probably Burke. There's no way an intruder would have given her pineapple, both John and Patsy said they never gave her pineapple and they had no reason to lie about something so simple. Burke's the one who got all weirded out when presented with a picture of a bowl of pineapple by the police.

I'm getting the distinct smell of poo in this thread. How are things at the Bellagio today?

What most likely happened: John molested his daughter JonBenet and then murdered her in a fit of rage. Patsy helped cover for John by writing the ransom note, which was at least partly dictated by him. Based on the contents of the ransom note, there might have been a plan to remove JonBenet’s body from the house, which they decided to abandon (too risky).

There is a lot of weirdness in this thread, including some near-hysteric insistence that who did (and didn't do) it and what exactly happened is obvious. But no, R421, posts are not being "scrubbed"--I can see every single one. Adjust your settings before you spew nonsense.

I think it's Poo shoes, R426, and I can see every post too. The poster accusing others of being John Ramsey and claiming that he's here posting is a Poo tell for sure.

I’m torn between EXACTLY who in this family initiated JBR’s fatal, traumatic incident.

Two or more things can be true at once, in this particular crime.

I do believe JBR was being actively molested by a family member before her death. Perhaps she was being actively molested by all family members. If Patsy digitally penetrated her daughter, I believe she did so in order to determine whether or not someone else in her household, had deflowered JBR. I believe that Patsy suspected this, hence all of the frequent pediatrician visits.

I’ve lived with a sociopath, and hence, can totally get behind the theory that JR was molesting his daughter.

Sociopaths are masters at their “pretend life”, and not one person can know who these very dangerous individuals behave, unless they’ve lived with one. When I watch any JR interview, pre and post Patsy’s death, I see a man who reminds me of a sociopath I know, and who definitely harmed my family, and me.

Whatever the case may be, I believe JR PROFOUNDLY harmed his entire family. This is why Patsy was a complete and utter mess, and why Burke was smearing shit on his sister’s belongings.

I genuinely hope that Burke continues or resumes therapy, or that his therapy was successful enough for him to finally shut all doors leading to his father.

JR isn’t a good guy and he never was. If he protected anyone in this scandal, he did it for himself, not for his family.

I know a POS when I see one, and JR ticks all of the POS boxes I’ve come to understand as traits which lead to malignant narcissism, and/or sociopathy.

Whatever happened in that house that night, was mainly driven by JR, even if he himself had not delivered JBR’s fatal blow or garrote strangulation.

Also, women know absolute shit about garrote strangulation, as nor do CHILDREN, ESPECIALLY children who weren’t attached to a cellphone or an iPad when they were only nine years old WAY back before the internet’s introduction.

Burke does not seem autistic to me. He could be, there are signs but it's too hard to diagnose him. He hasn't posed any further threats and he works a job and had a girlfriend. He could be ADHD or PTSD. His little sister was murdered and his family was the center of a huge investigation and media circus. If he's socially off as an adult male, that could be explained just by the whole insanity of the murder and the aftereffect.

Also, why are people acting like some kids are not aggressive? They aren't mature enough to manage their emotions and will have tantrums and lash out. It's not from autism. Preteen boys have testosterone which makes them act aggressive at times. It's the job of the parent to educate the child who to manage their frustrations without resorting to hitting. JonBenet was also 6 and little siblings often instigate fights with older too. I get the vibe Patsy and John were neglectful. One was a CEO which is naturally a job which requires workaholism and Patsy was super-invested in making JonBenet a pageant queen. JonBenet was probably spoiled rotten and lavished the attention. Burke felt jealous. Little kids get jealous of their younger siblings. Actually, some older children could have killed their younger siblings in anger without parental intervention.

That said, I doubt that if Burke actually killed his sister that it was intentional. He was only 9, so still not accountable anyway. I cannot hold a 9-year-old to the standards of an adult who would have better impulse control.

The "evidence" that Burke "probably" did it is a great example of the problem of inductive vs. deductive reasoning (and the corrosive effect that bullshit crime profiling has had on our culture). It would be one thing if there was some forensic evidence that linked Burke to the murder, then it would make sense to look for other clues to his involvement. But if you start with the premise "What if Burke did it?" you can find all kinds of otherwise innocent behavior by him and little factoids to support that idea. But none of that is evidence or proof in any meaningful way.

Not only that, R429, but kids in general can do stupid things that they don't realize could hurt someone else. My sister was about 10 when she threw a toy hammer (it was the 80s so the thing had an actual metal head) and hit me in the forehead. She was just goofing around and was trying to throw it into the toybox and I was in the way. It wasn't her intention to hurt anyone but I still blacked out for a few seconds and had a huge bump on my forehead. She freaked and was in her room sobbing while my mother was holding an ice pack to my head and deciding whether or not to take me to the hospital. Kids do things at the best of times, never mind when they're enraged by the actions of a younger (and probably annoying) sibling.

It's odd that they think being a young boy who has temper tantrums (like many children his age) and accidentally hurt his younger sister once would kill her. It's like they never were a child themselves or had a sibling. Siblings fight. Little kids can be devilish at times, they are not innately little angels. Hence why parents have to discipline and keep watch. Also, even if Burke was autistic, that would not make him more likely to kill his sister and cover it up. In fact, many autistic people cannot lie at all. He certainly would not do a TV interview. The idea a 9-year-old is able to think out a murder plan long-term, keep a secret and is a psychopath is purely from Hollywood. He could be on the spectrum and seemed impulsive and hyperactive. I really doubt he is an evil mastermind nor would be able to maintain any secrecy. John Ramsey fits the criteria of psychopathy much better.

Just an FYI or a reminder:

If you have a child who is exhibiting childhood conduct disorder, PLEASE GET THE CHILD HELP.

Most normal kids will grow out of antisocial tendencies, however, they may cause GREAT harm, before doing so.

And if you tick all the boxes for sociopathy? Please, make an intellectual decision to at the very least, give your child an opportunity to NOT end up like you. Kids deserve a clean and honest break. Your sociopathy does not need to impact them for life, if you can at least be honest enough with yourself to understand that your kids learned it all from YOU.

Obviously, I’m excluding inherited etiology from this, and focusing on environmental modalities, however, both inherited and environmental predispositions usually go hand and hand, here.

If you fucked up your son due to your BULLSHIT, chances are, that you are NOT the great father you think you are.

I don't believe Burke is autistic, R432, especially after I saw the police interviews where he was being deliberately coy and avoidant, and the one a year or so later where he was all stretched out and casual to the point of cockiness (as if he were bored). People can be weird with having a diagnosis.

People do not react to every situation how they are expected. Like people will laugh at tragedies or be completely monotone and unemotional. The way people deal with trauma is individual. The hysterical crying is not that common as people presume. I've never cried at funerals for instance but didn't mean I wasn't deeply sad at the loss.

Burke was seeing a therapist when JB was killed and had been for some time. Patsy and John went to great lengths to conceal Burke’s psychiatric records when this was all fresh. He has psychiatric issues. Autistic or not, he is not normal. He was a rich little brat, thats why he was stretched out in that interview, but he still had issues. People would rather argue and become borderline hostile before doing a quick google search.

Yes, the DNA is something the “the family did it” crowd refuses to acknowledge, along with many other things. They want salacious. I get it. I thought Patsy did it too but then I read about evidence that wasn’t made mainstream and I am convinced an intruder did it and wrote the note to direct the authorities suspicions toward the Ramseys. Do I think John and Patsy are deplorable people in their own right? You bet, but I think they are innocent of killing their daughter. I did see the documents of evidence on a specific reddit thread but this thread was occupied by people close to the case, personally. Yes, other ones are gossip and hearsay but this one was different.

One amazing thing from the whole case was at the time JB's pageant outfits seemed outrageous. (I hate pageant culture, but I get that it's perceived differently in the south). Those outfits of hers are NOTHING today compared to the getups worn by young children in competitive dance (thanks in part to shows like Dance Moms). My niece took dance for a few years and my sister never allowed her to be part of one of those trashy studios that focus on competitions and instead took her to a respectable academy where she learned proper technique in a few different styles with an emphasis on ballet.

I find it odd how so many Americans have no problem with little girls being sexualized in beauty pageants, cheerleading and dance competitions. But have a serious problem with adult women who are sexually promiscuous, show their bodies, do sex work, get abortions and breastfeed in public.

They also have no problem with little boys playing dress-up as cowboys and cops while brandishing toy guns, playing violent video games and watching violent movies. And yet act surprised when teen boys and young men act violent and gun-crazy.

R437 R438 I would think only pedophiles get turned on by little girls (or boys) no matter what they are wearing.

R439 Yes. But it's still not ethical to put a little girl through beauty pageants. It's grueling process that takes hours just to prepare and months of rehearsing. They are still young children who need to learning and playing outside. They are too young to be put through that much stress over their appearance and having to compare their looks to other girls.

R437 What evidence? Ramsey defenders are always bringing up evidence that only they have seen?

Whether Burke did it or not, they definitely raised a little sociopath.

R438 because women and girls who look available but are innocent/dumb virgins are fetishized. For example, about 85% of Britney's popularity in the early 2000s can be summed up as "I'm a virgin who can't walk and chew gum and the same time, and I just love to wear tops that barely contain my big boobies!"

What, R441? I never said anything about any evidence in my post @ R437.

R441 the cigarette butts found in a lookout spot near the ramsey house. There were 19 of them. The police observations made of the family during the morning of her disappearance. The unmatched dna. The defaced Esprit article found in John’s study. The stun gun marks. Those are just a few things that made me question my cemented-in-stone “the family did it” outlook.

I think there is some interesting stuff in here.

R445 honey, I can count at least 19 cigarette butts outside my house right now. No foreign faction broke in to murder me and leave a hilarious ransom note last night.

R447 Haha! Fair enough.

There is also evidence of blood in her pants, mixed with a drop of her blood?

Both of the kids had bed wetting issues, Burke had issues with playing with his feces.

No, R449, mixed with a DNA sample from an unknown male.

In the post at 442, it mentions a family friend wanting to take the ramsey kids to McDonalds, to which Jonbenet replies stonefaced, “Eating McDonalds makes you fat.” Patsy and John must have been ghouls for parents.

Jonbenet told the housekeeper that she was going to be a sexy witch for Halloween.

More intruder evidence

R454 That last segment under similar attack, I mean that had to have been him. Disgusting and terrifying.

Poor Jon Bonet . Her life was awful

It ain't all shits and giggles when you're a star.

And make no mistake, JonBenet was a fuckin' star, bay-BEE!

I posted r414, I’ll try to find my sources of that info, I totally agree that it’s easy for things to get misconstrued. So I (unintentionally) told a half truth about no pelvic exam, what I remembered must have been about the doctor not using a speculum. I will say, I find it hilarious that the doctor expects us to believe he didn’t afford Patsy special treatment/benefit of the doubt that was slightly different than say, a poor brown single mom. Sorry, two justice systems, that includes how professionals hold your behavior in suspicion — or not. There is no way in hell a doctor would have moved aggressively with this family if there was an inkling of sex abuse. That’s just laughable.

Re the Reddits about the intruder evidence, cited up above: you will notice that out of the MANY responses on those threads, no one is expressing any scepticism about the notion of the "small foreign faction", i.e. an outside intruder. This is because those on reddit who find the idea preposterous (as do I) pretty much stopped discussing the case with the intruder-believers a good long while ago on Reddit. The intruder believers have their own threads. I still want to know why or how it happened:

1. That an intended kidnapper managed to kill his target while in the process of asporting her away? Was she just too cute to resist sexually assaulting and then killing?

2.What kind of an insane kidnapper would dare to write a ransom note and *simultaneously* leave the corpse of his target in her own home? They were going to kill her and THEN demand a ransom, YET they didn't even bother to carry the child's CORPSE out of the house?! Do you have any idea how completely irrational this all is? It's IMPOSSIBLE, not to be taken seriously.

3. The "kidnapper(s) DID NOT carry that note into that house ahead of time, i.e. it was composed and deposited from inside the house.

4. WHY would anyone give credence to this note being the product of anyone other than John and /or Patsy Ramsey? The child was dead, and they (or at least one of them) knew it. The killer(s) KNEW that they (he or she) would be in jail by the end of the following day, for the rest of their lives, UNLESS they could somehow point the finger at some kind of "outside intruder". It was a hare-brained attempt, what they did, but it has worked beautifully thanks to their significant money (and their whiteness, let's be frank about that). Without the note, the parents would CERTAINLY have been tried for the death of that little girl. It's not even a close call to me, the circumstances and the very contents of the note itself point straight at John and Patsy Ramsey. The more I look at this, the more convinced I am that John did all of it, and used the note in hopes of cowing Patsy to give him a couple of hours the next morning, for him to be able to haul the body out of the house ("I'm going to the bank honey, and pick up the ransom money") and dump it someplace, while "going to get the ransom money." There was NO kidnapper and there was NO intruder. What the note requires you to believe in order to find it genuine is RIDICULOUS to point of insanity.

^(Did the kidnapper believe that NO ONE in the family, nor the police, would even bother to look around for JonBenet in the house before they gullibly delivered the ransom money? LOL)

I think he was going to take her with him in the suitcase but couldn’t get it through the window. By that time the ransom not had already been written, and he had to abandon his original plans.

R459 Did you read the list of evidence suggesting an intruder posted above?

^I have read through it and nothing much about it seems to really indicate the presence of anyone else in that house that night. The alleged DNA on the long underwear could have come from anyone (it is NOT semen, to be clear; the DNA analysis says not). She wore those garments to the Whites' party the night before, and there were many people there, and she interacted with people in documented ways. The cigarette butts: come on, you want me to believe that the foreign faction cooled its heels in the alley beside the house long enough to smoke NINETEEN cigarettes? Come on. And on and on and on. There was no kidnapping, no attempt at kidnapping. The terms of the note itself refute the idea of it and there's no credible evidence of anyone else getting into that house that night.

R462, we’ve all read it, and we all think it’s poppycock. ALL of the intruder evidence has been bankrolled, promoted, and refreshed every five years by none other than John Ramsey. If someone credible supports that theory, I’d love to hear it, but their name can’t be Lou Smit. None, and I do mean none, none of the cops ever for a moment believed the intruder theory because it was so clearly staged.

^the post at R454

Someone could have been posted up for a number of days stalking and staking out the house, smoking several cigs at a time.

^Or the fucking maid could have left them there over a course of weeks. Next.

R463, some of the DNA was in her underwear, not just on the outside of her pajamas.

I think the cigs were found outside behind a garage or something, not in the house.

R461: NO ONE climbed through that window, with a suitcase or without one. So by your scenario, the kidnapper, who couldn't get the suitcase-body out the window, realized his mistake, and then left the body (outside of the suitcase) AND the suitcase, in the house, and then, HIMSELF, exited by one of the many doors. And left the body, and all hopes of his ransom, behind? DOES ANY OF THAT MAKE ANY SENSE? Not to me, it doesn't, not just common, ordinary everyday common sense. It's preposterous.

R470 The whole thing is preposterous and none of it makes sense, we definitely agree on that.

It all comes down to the wiped Maglite and the ransom note.

Nah, there's a lot more to it than that, R472.

JonBenet's older sister was killed in a car accident several years earlier. Losing one child looks like an accident. Losing two is starts to make one wonder.

I think the BPD do not want the DNA tested and all that evidence to come to light because they know they will be sued into oblivion by John and Burke.

R474. Patsy claimed JonBenet loved the angels on her Christmas tree because they reminded her of Beth

It seemed odd that a child as young as JonBenet was able to grasp the concept of death.

R476 It sounds like Patsy had molded her into a showy actress who was always “on”. The housekeeper did call JB Patsy’s project.

Circling back to the 19 cigarette butts, wow, quite a foreign faction! They had time to chain smoke through several packs in addition to writing the note and staging the crime scene?

I looked into first daughters death, it seemed to be a legit accident. I believe she was on a major freeway with a boyfriend in Chicago. Nothing suspicious about the accident.

Someone upthread posted that Beth hated John — now that’s something I would love to hear more about. When I did the rabbit hole on this case years ago, I could not find a thing about her relationship with him.

R478, I took it to mean that maybe the smoking occurred over several days when maybe that person was scoping out the house.

[quote]I took it to mean that maybe the smoking occurred over several days when maybe that person was scoping out the house.

So some intruder gained access to the house on multiple occasions before the murder, smoking all the time?

R481, wasn’t it on the grounds? Sorry, I might have missed that detail.

R480, I'd be surprised if a stranger could stake out a house over the course of several days (and apparently standing outside smoking while they did it) without being noticed. In an upscale residential neighborhood, someone probably would have called the police. It would also would surprise me if a habitual smoker could write that extended ransom note without going through a few cigarettes.

R479, check this out , John was so shaken up and distraught by Beth’s death, that he was inconsolable. He would be heard wailing for hours in a locked bedroom. Beth was his favorite child apparently, and he was devastated. His reaction to JB murder was quite the opposite. He was so wooden and cavalier almost . 🤔

Maybe JB wasn’t his child.

R485, that’s doubtful

Is it possible that JR has people posting here? Could it be JR himself?

"Johnisms"

One of Patsy's neighbors called the cops because "inner city" children were selling magazines door to door! No way some suspicious character was lurking for days! This info was given by Patsy in police interviews because the Ramsey's were trying to pin the murder on anyone they could think of. According to Patsy these black children who obviously didn't belong in her neighborhood could have snuck back and murdered JB.

Hmmm, were the children smoking? If so, we might be getting closer to identifying the small foreign faction which perpetrated this horrendous crime. Anyone know?

[quote]Jonbenet told the housekeeper that she was going to be a sexy witch for Halloween.

Poor JonBenet! All those Halloween costumes that never came: Naughty Nurse when she was 8... Slutty Librarian when she was 9...

I never knew that the family was planning to meet John's older daughter's fiance the next day. I wonder if they went through with the wedding and if the marriage lasted.

"So, my family is super infamous now because my dad and stepmom might've killed my baby sister. Is this awkward?"

^i think John’s daughter, Melinda, was engaged to and eventually married a physician. I believe they might have at least one child.

So when is this new DNA analysis supposed to happen?

Re R489's post about "the inner city children" who had been seen selling magazines in the Ramseys' neighborhood: Wikipedia says that, as of 2019, there were precisely 1,273 black people in Boulder Co (1.2 percent of the total population). I realize that the uppa crust like the Ramseys and their ilk might well have considered hispanics to also be "inner city," but I'm too lazy to look into that one. The point being that Boulder appears to have a surprisingly slim profile when it comes to anybody but white folks.

If you would like a brief overview of the problems that piled up in trying to hold anybody accountable for JBR's death, this website gives a lot of information. It's 7 pages, but the text is large and the pages are covered with ads, so it's a quick read, and it does go into detail pretty well about John Ramsey's aggressive defensive posture, the stalling by the Boulder DA(s) (there were 2 of them involved, over a course of the first few years); and the DNA evidence, and what the likely problems are with it. It's very informative.

R496, thanks for that link, which makes an underrated point: because the case is still classified as an open investigation, the public does not have access to records from the Boulder Police or the DA’s office. We can’t see the best sources of information. We’re stuck with newspaper reporting, leaked information, investigations by authors, and Reddit threads (some of which, admittedly, are extremely interesting).

John Ramsey is a despicable psychopath.

Random question. Was the Disney Big Red Boat a little downmarket for the Ramsey’s? I know it doesn’t exist now but found it described as a “moderate” vacation choice for moderate income families. Anyone ever go on one?

I have not r499 (quelle horror), but Disney can be quite pricey if one opts for upgrades. Also, Disney is kind of a “must-do” for most little girls, so even if it was slightly white trashy, the kids would be super excited to go — plus Patsy really was white trash.

Disney is a must do for girls from trashy families, R500. They're the ones deluded into thinking they're princesses and all.

I've come 'round to the theory that John Ramsey alone is the killer. If it isn't John, then an intruder is the next best possibility. There are holes in both theories, but at least with the intruder, the actual person is so unknown that the holes are not so bothersome.

As others have said, notice how everything that happens (circumstantially) points to Patsy. Notice that there is only one person who could do that. Notice that now that she’s gone, it all now points to Burke, never to John, ever. Notice that close friends have all turned on them, all due to the behavior of John. Notice that the sole detective who spent that first day alone with them thought everything pointed to John. Notice who find the broken glass/window, who finds the body….who did not call the police. Notice that the person who called the police also called over multiple friends to the house, not John.

The key to me is Patsy calling the police after she read the letter. I think John wrote it, like someone upthread said, hoping to get everyone out of the house (and NOT have police around) so he could dispose of the body. Then when Patsy went and called the police, he realized the jig was up and "found" JonBenet in the basement. I really don't think Burke did it. I think whoever did it was truly disturbed and a strong adult.

And r504, now that you see it, doesn’t seem just so fucking obvious? I remember many years ago here, if you even dared to suggest it was John, you would get eviscerated because *everyone* was convinced it was Patsy…..until it was Burke. It’s nice to see that enough info has come out that more and more are accepting the obvious. But we will never see justice, because America has two justice systems, one for the wealthy, and a second for everyone else.

We have to rule out Burke did it alone, because he could not have written that note. We have to rule out Burke did it and the Ramseys covered it up, because if they wrote the note, they would not have called the police so quickly, not until they had disposed of the body. But with Burke ruled out, we next have to rule out Patsy, who *could* have written the note, but then she would not have called the police. Quod erat demonstrandum -- it's John Ramsey, alone.

Bingo!!! ^^^^^

I thought that the testimony of Det. Linda Arnt, who was alone when John found the body, was very articulate and persuasive. Unfortunately, people made fun of her because her eyes were wide in the interview. I think that she really saw something in his facial expression that absolutely persuaded her that he did it. It was a terrible mistake to trash her and discount her observations.

Well, all that's left of this thread now is fact-free shrieking nonsense. Congratulations Poo Shoes, you ruin everything with your shit.

Only 90 more posts before we can close this thread. Keep 'em comin'!

Huh, r509? Poo shoes cares about the murder of JonBenet? Are you sure?

Poo Shoes loves to rub herself at any hint of sexual abuse, R511, even if she has to make unsubstantiated allegations and her tells are all over this thread.

I know R511, it seems strange. Normally she's too rational and sensible to get all whipped into a frenzy over things that don't affect her life at all.

^A LOT of people on these boards are paranoid to the point of mental instability. It's very weird.

I studied the detailed, years-long, threads on Reddit about a year ago and was baffled by this case. The "foreign intruder" theory makes NO sense BECAUSE of the note, it is simply impossible as an explanation of what happened because of the insanely nonsensical things you have to believe for it to have any plausibility. R503, 504, 505 and 506 lay out the most rational explanations for why John had to have done this all by himself. The note was an attempt to cow Patsy into giving him long enough, the following morning, to "go to the bank" with the suitcase (with the body inside of it), in order to "get the ransom money at the bank." He ditches the little girl's body ANYWHERE outside the house (and this was YEARS before outdoor security cameras were prevalent everywhere, like today), and voila! - the kidnapping scenario laid out in the note is fulfilled perfectly: they kidnapped her, took her out of the house and then killed her. Considering what he had done in the house, it was his ONLY hope of diverting the blame away from himself and he was counting on the idea that Patsy was too dumb to see through him. If he hadn't been a millionaire, he would have been in jail for this before the following night and he would probably still be in jail for it today.

OK Poo, we heard you the first 10 times. You don't need to keep logging into a different account to agree with yourself.

[quote] Jonbenet told the housekeeper that she was going to be a sexy witch for Halloween. Poor JonBenet! All those Halloween costumes that never came: Naughty Nurse when she was 8... Slutty Librarian when she was 9...

Prostitution whore when she 10…..Hustler centerfold at 11….so many missed opportunities.

This nutcase, R516, who keeps raving about "Poo Shoes" because this case has something to do with sexual abuse (?) - The case DOES have to do with sexual abuse, regardless of WHO you believe killed her. It was detailed in the coroner's report. YOU are deranged, R516. I wrote R515, and I have NOTHING to do with R503 thru R506. You are a little unstable, maybe. And / or drunk.

I didn't say anything about sexual abuse, Poo. You just can't help but give yourself away.

R516, seriously, if you’re annoyed by this thread, you don’t have to read or post here. What on earth are you annoyed about in this thread? Just tell us rather than bringing up some tired old DL trope to shut people up.

While there is a lot of logic for the murderer to be John, the one thing I can't understand would be his motive. Even if he's abusing her, there's no reason to kill her, even if she threatens to tell. He thought he was able to get away with murder. Sexual abuse is easier for rich men to get away with than murder, especially if the only witness is the little child. No reason to kill her.

R521, murders are frequently committed to hide other crimes — it’s a tale as old as time itself. The murder motive was to cover-up the sex abuse. Had the sex abuse been revealed, John would have lost his fortune, his marriage, his reputation, and so much more, including his church and business network too. Finally, I believe that John was also worried about the purchase of his company because so much money was on the line, I am sure he was desperate to squash any scandal that would prevent the sale from closing. So John had to murder her to protect himself, his lifestyle and prestige, and his money and business.

It was everyone but ME, don't forget the 19 cigarette butts the foreign faction left behind.

I perused the JonBenet Reddit group, and "John Did It" seems to be the least popular theory over there. People do seem to overlook John, it's odd.

R523 The same cigarette butts were found at the scene of the break-in to the young girl’s bedroom a few months after Jonbenet. It was an intruder! The guy had been hiding in that house for hours as well. The Ramsays are fucking weird as shit but they did not kill their daughter.

I think the dna breakthrough is in the near future and this case will be solved.

If the murderer is John, I think it's very possible that her death was an accident, like had been theorized about Patsy. JonBenét fell, cracked her skull, perhaps in the middle of trying to get away from John's sexual meddling, and then he thought he had no choice but to kill her.

The injury to her head was a fatal injury. She would have died from it, whether someone strangled her to finish her off or not. The order of the infliction of the injuries was not determined by the coroner, I think, but it seems logical that she was hit in the head (or fell, or...), and then someone (John) determined to make certain she was dead and strangled her (it's too horrible to even think about, yes).

What was John’s relationship with his two other daughters like?

R527, please go and read about her injury more. That is not, in any way, an injury from a fall.

If JonBenet was alive today what would she be doing?

Fat pageant mom?

Fox News bimbo??

Porn star???

I think r530 is right, didn’t the coroner determine it was a blunt force object? But they didn’t know of it happened first.

R527 R530 with blunt force trauma, you can't differentiate whether from an object or fall.

Jonbenet also had prior vaginal injury.

R533, the head wound was (if memory serves) over 7 inches long, in a straight line. That’s an object.

R533, CSI tv show armchair expert here, and I think you actually can determine whether an injury is from a fall or from a blunt object.

^He appeared to absolutely adore, Beth, the daughter who was killed in a car accident.

He didn’t have too much to say about surviving daughter, Melinda, in his and Patsy’s book.

^Obviously meant for R529

I would kill to hear his ex-wife talk.

R536 Melinda was NOT pageant material, enough said.

R524, one of the reasons may be that it’s not a “clever” solution. It’s the overwhelmingly obvious one. But when people invest emotionally in a case they seem to want a bizarre or unexpected reveal of the “real killer.” It may be conditioning from fictional murder mysteries, where it’s always the least likely suspect who is guilty.

R528, the coroner’s report, I believe, indicates, brain hemorrhaging after the blow, i.e., that she was alive when she was hit. The actual cause of death was the combination of strangling and the head injury. That kind of blow sounds so heavy it’s hard to believe that it was accident.

R541 - I thought there was NO brain hemorrhaging, which is why they thought she cracked her skull after she was dead.

Here’s the text of the autopsy report, but damned if I can make sense of it.

From the autopsy report it looks like there was hemorrhaging. CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

Debatable.

No the truly weird thing is Patsy calling all these friends. She did so because she was afraid John was going to kill her. Of course she knew what happened: she hadn't changed her clothes.

The official cause of death was the Foreign Faction.

There were both head injuries and evidence of ligature strangulation. "Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and skin of face"

[quote] Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

Rabbit hole on garrote, part 1.

Garrote part 2.

And finally, Delmar England’s analysis of the note. These are all ancient sources, but fascinating to read!

R546 That is a brilliant idea that I never had in all these years. Patsy invited all the friends as self-defense because she thought John would kill her. And my impression is that Linda Arnt let them into the house because she also thought that John might kill her.

R552 yeah gurl I just watched the Linda Arndt interview with Elisabeth hiccup Vargas. She was very genuine in her description of poor Jonbenet, and her fearing of John that morning. I feel bad for Linda, she was the scapegoat for Boulder PD.

Yes, Linda got thrown under the bus, but I also believe she brought some of it in herself, I have a hazy recollection of her photocopying case notes and sending them to the Ramsey legal team! I cannot remember where I read that so take it with a huge grain of salt.

I think Patsy subconsciously feared John that day, “hence”:

Calling the police

Calling friends over

Physically separating herself from him, leaving room

Peering through her fingers in terror

Remaining drugged every day for years after the killing

Ultimately, denial and gaslighting won with Patsy. I think it’s sad because she was in some ways an extremely strong person, the way she defended herself during interrogation shows that. But I think her desire for power and prestige warped her judgment when it came to John. I also have to believe that Nedra would have pressured her to back up John if s single drop of doubt crept in.

Do you think Patsy might've been a covert alcoholic? I mean, she seems the type to throw back a few to take the "edge off".

Too fattening r555, Patsy was taking prescribed medication from doctors . I do believe that John is abusive and evil…. Patsy also had her share of pathological narcissism

R555 Patsy did start to gain loads of weight in the years after the murder. Her appearance changes so much from one interview to another. It could be alcohol or the side effect from medication.

If Patsy knew John did it, how does one explain the statement she said to a family friend upon waking from a possible drugged up nap: "We didn't mean for this to happen"?

When Patsy was alive, the PR heat was on her as all theories pointed to her doing it and cleared John. Now that Patsy is dead, all prominent theories then to point to Burke doing it, which also clears John. If this is PR controlled by John's team, why not just keep the narrative that Patsy did it? She's already dead now. Why ruin Burke's life by changing the theory to Burke?

R557, guilt !! She was no mother of the year, but no monster either

R559 Well.....considering where Jonbenet ended up, I'd say Burke is getting off easy

Anyone have any knowledge of John Ramsey’s fathering during his first round of kids! 2 daughters, 1 son .

I think, r559, that part of John’s strategy is that he feeds the media, and how does one feed them? You give them interviews of the suspect in real-time. He can control the narrative this way too. So he needs the patsy to actually go out there and beat the drum of their version of the story. It also fuels the suspicion. It’s like when Michael Jackson did that interview where that young boy rested his head on MJ’s shoulder, having a clear crush on MJ, we had to believe our own eyes that this criminal is that bold. He’s literally pointing, pointing, pointing at the patsy and gives his narrative life by feeding the media every few years with an appearance, or a book, or a whatever,

What to make of these odd details on the web--

"John Ramsey's daughter (from his first marriage), Elizabeth, had uncovered several vivid memories of Satanic, ritual sexual abuse after a failed suicide attempt (during the ensuing therapy sessions) in which her Father apparently played a major role in the rituals. Within several months of uncovering the memories and going 'public' with them (talking to friends and family members) she was dead - killed in a 'freak' car accident the manner in which has never been fully resolved to investigators satisfaction."

"JonBenet had expressed discomfort to her mother Patsy Ramsey concerning her 'private place' about two months before her death. Beginning app. two weeks before her murder, JonBenet began to talk - talk about scary people in long, black robes who gathered around her and stuck 'things' into her private place - things that hurt her. She also spoke vaguely of darkness around her and the possible use of candles. Several of the Ramsey's friends; friends from their Church, the Whites and the Fernies as well as others, heard this along with several of her teachers and questioned her about it. After JonBenet's murder they went to the Police with the information but apparently due to the DA, nothing ever came of it. The friends from the Church abruptly ended their relationship(s) with the Ramsey's and several of them openly stated they thought them guilty of murdering their daughter:

Wow ! R564, considering the Ramsey are elite , I believe it .

What if John convinced Patsy Burke did it, even though he didn’t, which is why she went along with the cover up at first, realizing too late that it was John, not Burke?

Did she also go to McMartin preschool, R564?

R564 Wow. Where did you read this information?

R568 Discussions on a blog. Link below. You have to wade through the comments, but it's there. No way of knowing if it's true, but it would account for the falling out among the Ramseys and Whites and other friends.

R564 R569 This is cuckoo for coco puffs, but I buy this over the Foreign Faction.

iF Burke did it they wouldn't have sent him away where he might have said something.

JonBenet told several people that Santa would pay her a secret visit that night. My theory? Santa was John. He dressed in a Santa suit to lure her into the basement and then molest her in disguise. But, like many kids, she recognized the man beneath the beard, likely after he was molesting her, so he decides to kill her.

One possible reason for Patsy to be wearing the same clothes/hair/makeup from the night before is sleeping pills. John might have slipped her sleeping pills and she zonked out in her clothes on to wake up to confusion and terror.

Melody Stanton, a neighbor who lived across the street from the Ramsey’s reported a loud horrible child’s scream that ended abruptly between 12AM and 2AM December 26.

Years later, unearthed Boulder Police police reports validated Ms. Stanton’s account, as a second neighbor also claims to have have heard a loud piercing scream the same night in the direction of the Ramsey’s house.

This is a smoking gun. If the scream was so loud that neighbor’s heard it, how the hell could John, Patsy, and Burke sleep through it coming from their own house/basement?

Also, a scream demolishes the theory that JonBenet was accidentally injured, as JonBenet must have sensed impending danger.

I believe both neighbor’s accounts because they never sought to profit off of their earwitness testimony, and the second neighbor’s identity remains a mystery.

The scream makes me think it was Burke or Patsy. John would have been stealthy about the strike.

Poor kid 👧

Patsy wearing the same clothes actually points to her innocence. And Patsy was a heavy sleeper.

Who took a shower early that morning? John!

R574 They tested the scream theory from the basement and it was proven, because of the size and layout of the house, a scream would not be heard on the upper floors from the basement. But also, who said she screamed in the basement? If I am remembering correctly the neighbor said the scream was followed my metal scraping on concrete, which implies the grate being dragged, but considering she had been bashed in the head an hour or so before, how could she have screamed so closely to an intruder escaping through the grate? Has there ever been a case that has been so baffling?

Patsy called the police that morning (1) consciously fearing for Jonbenet (2) subconsciously fearing for herself (and Burke).

It's inconceivable to me that the parents would have let Burke out of their sight that morning, if they (or one of them - John) believed that Burke either knew what had happened the night before, or that Burke had had any part of it. It is just impossible that a murderer would have let that kid go to someone else's house by himself, while the cops were swarming all over the murder scene, if Burke knew ANYTHING about what had happened to JBR. However this happened (John did it), the killer is obviously far too conniving to have allowed the kid go where he might easily spill the beans to a neighbor.

Agreed, r580. If Burke was part of this, no way he is out of their sight for a second.

R580, John whispered something in Burke’s ear before he went with neighbor. Some have speculated he threatened him or put fear in him .

^I'm not questioning the accuracy of what you say, but I read about this case extensively and don't recall that being said before. Do you know where the information came from, a source? -R580

R572, interesting theory, but then what did John do with the Santa suit?

R583 from first detective on scene book

Which book is it, what’s the title please?

I find it so strange the amount of really well researched theories and books that actually think the garrot was not staging but part of a "sex game" with the murderer was playing That makes zero sense to me. That kind of a game would be S&M to pleasure the person being strangled--no child would get pleasure from that. How would that be a game? Even more odd, many who think John did it believe he was using the garrot in a sex game with his daughter. I can't understand this.

It's a shame JonBenet couldn't have to grown up to marry Halle Berry's ex, Eric Benet.

Then she'd have been JonBenet Benet.

Of course marrying a black would probably have meant John killing her so I suppose it all worked out in the end.

R587 Yeah, people watch too many movies.

An intruder makes sense if it was a deranged pageant mom---someone who target JonBenet because she was jealous of her taking pageant trophies from her own daughter. Anything to throw off the scent of a motive so petty and steeped in misogyny. People ask if blaming the mother was misogynistic, but this is already a misogynistic situation because there were 2 children in that house--a boy and girl. The boy lived. The girl died. Why target the girl?

John other daughter who died young at Find a Grave. There are also photos. She is buried near JonBenet.

It took 40 years to solve the case of the Lyon sisters, and that was mainly due to a confession by the most likely suspect, so this case may depend on a deathbed confession or hopefully, a DNA match.

^It's casual contact DNA, not traces of bodily fluids or semen; it could have come from anyone who handled the underwear (which was demonstrated to have been brand new, taken from a package recently, and worn before it had ever been laundered). Another analyst indicated that it could have come from any police investigator who handled it or coughed or sneezed near it. It's presence is NOT a red flag re a foreign intruder, whether a member of a faction or not. There is plenty online about all of this. The deathbed confession you need is the one you'll NEVER get: John Ramsey. He did it, all by himself.

Why would John have done this murder? It makes no sense. So many girls are molested by male family members, but are rarely killed by them. There would be no reason to kill his own daughter. As powerful as he was, it would be her word against his, and few would believe her. He could always control her by taking toys away or something. Hitting her on the head and smashing her skull? No. Too extreme. Besides, if he was molesting her, killing her would be cutting off his source of pleasure.

The only logical explanation is that Burke did it. The parents would not have caved her skull in.

So many aspects of the crime suggest that it was committed by someone who wanted to destroy Patsy, who seemingly lived her pathetic, frustrated life through JonBenet.

I did, by accident, see the autopsy photo with the garrote. The garrote was almost buried in her neck, and looked as though it had been tightened by someone with immense rage

Anybody up for a part 2? New thread is below.

So, intruders left only trace touch DNA, but 19 cigarette butts and a cuckoo ransom note?

Close this bitch out!