New DNA evidence won't be ruled out to solve the murder of Jonbenet

Ruh-roh...

'Fractions', OP?

Foreign fractions

Ah, I meant 'Foreign Faction'

From another DL’er in 2015

PATSY RAMSEY 1996 CHRISTMAS NEWSLETTER

Dear Friends, Family and Foreign Factions:

Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals having a lovely holiday! It's been another busy year at the luxuriously appointed Ramsey Christian home. As I told the children: Enjoy the celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because, you just never know, it may just be your last . . .

The older, unattractive children, unworthy of pageants, are doing stuff. One is on the East Coast (I hear from the gossips at the club) and one might even still be in Colorado. Coloring JonBenet’s hair and finding appropriate restraining devices for rigorous comb-outs keeps me far too busy to notice so many, many, many things. But I have started noticing SOME things.

Burke is a busy fourth grader trying to grow a brain. He's lost just about all of his baby teeth. He is welcome!

JonBenet, ever the minx, is enjoying her Daddy. Kindergarten in the Fashion Knowledge program, which includes both fashion posing and fashion moving, is fast paced, involves a lot of coffee and ciggies, and five full days a week. She has already been moved ahead a full grade in both runway and seduction. She continues to enjoy dressing up as a pint-size streetwalker in talent and modeling pageants. She was named "Miss Salacious” at a darling pageant in Tijuana, where her talent was singing “Boom Boom Boom Let’s Go Back to My Room” in Mexican. My goodness, she is so proud of all her sashes and tiaras! Which is why I have to remind her how small-time they all seem to a real Miss West Virginia. Her teacher says she is so outgoing that she will never have trouble delivering oral. Just ask John! Access recently celebrated its one billion $$ mark in sales, so he's in pretty good shape to buy my silence, if not participation in his “hobby.”

I spend most of my 'free time' working in the Sunday school and doing volunteer work, rebuking Muslims and other unsaved trash. My dear friend Betsy Richards’ ticky-tacky house with brick only on the front was on the home tour in July and will likely appear in one of the Better Homes & Gardens publications in 1997. Remember when that used to be the Bible of good taste? My goodness! I’d call it Bitter Homes & Garbage now! LOL! On a recent trip to NYC, my friend and I appeared amid the throng of fans on the TODAY show. My beauty caught the eyes of Al Roker & Bryant, and even though they are both unrepentant Negroes, I actually talked to them about JonBenet’s and my new Sister Act. I was on camera for all the world to see! Yes, just another thing, JonBenet will never be: A glamorous TV star!

We are all enjoying continued good health while it lasts and some of us look forward to seeing you in 1997! One final note ... thank you to all my 'friends' and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I've ever had! In case you didn’t pick up what I was just telling you: He spent A LOT more money on that one party than most of you will for rent and groceries all year! We'll be spending even more money on my actual birthday on the Disney Big Red Boat over the new year! Jealous? Oh, stop! If you think I’m famous now, well you just wait . . . LOL! ;)

Merry Christmas and much love, The Ramseys

—Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder, CO

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Burke better leave the country.

They have no DNA. They contaminated everything and the father was in bed with the DA who cleared the family via touch DNA, which is bullshit. We all know the family did it. There’s no one anyone else did it in the house while everyone slept. It’s like OJ. How dumb can people be?

Yeah, the most plausible explanation is that the older brother, who had rage issues and had hurt her before, killed JonBenet. The parents covered it up so they wouldn't lose both their children.

The perfect murder.

R8 to R10 Well I never, how dare you basic DL cunts!

There's zero evidence that Burke did. What kind of a sociopath do you have to be to accuse a little kid of murder with zero evidence?

R8, wrong. They have DNA on her pajamas and panties that doesn't match anyone in her family.

That's touch DNA that likely came from the factory.

R13 where did you read this, in one of Patsy Ramsey's Christmas newsletters?

All recent web/TV investigations (which is as legit as it gets) point to Burke.

A lot of people think that, R9:

[quote]Yes, I'm speaking from memory but John had a daughter who died in a car accident in her early 20s like a year or two prior. That's why I'm mostly into the BDI camp: they had lost two children in such a short time that they freaked out.

[quote]Honestly I think a lot of it also makes more sense if Patsy does a lot of it [cover up] alone before going to John. Realistically an accident by a child would not have Burke going to jail for life, but if Patsy freaks out and starts doing things to the corpse/dying JB she's now definitely going to jail or at least a psych ward probably forever. So then John has to decide between the fallout of that or attempting a general cover up.

BDI = Burke did it

Too many "whatabouts" to pin this on a little kid

About the underwear:

[quote]it was Dr. Henry Lee who showed the DNA on the underwear likely came from the manufacturing/packaging process at the factory. I’m reluctant to see that as a reliable source of offender DNA, unless they match it to one or more of the other sources and can be confident that is offender DNA. Does anyone know if the different sources have yielded matching profiles?

[quote]iirc James Kolar mentioned in his Reddit AMA on the case, that yes they were fresh out of the package and unwashed

[quote]She was a bedwetter and the mom said she ran out of regular underwear and opened a package of underwear purchased for an older girl as part of a Christmas gift, like Jonbennet was a regular 4t sized child but was wearing girls size 10 underwear straight from a package.

How old was? 10? He had a history of rage and hurting her.

The Ramsays were slobs. The housekeeper complained there was always dirty dishes and unwashed clothes lying around. There was a pair of pajama pants in Jonbenet's room with feces on them. Feces had also been smeared on furniture and a box of chocolates.

[17] honey wake up and smell the ignorance. Burke smeared feces all over Jobenet's bedroom and struck her with a golf club the months leading up to her murder.

They all killed that little girl and they got away with it.

There is no evidence whatsoever that a child committed this very violent, very adult crime. Zero. It's someone's crackpot theory.

R23 is Burke Ramsey

R23 Jonebet's cause of death was a blunt force trauma to the head, and the investigators identified a toy train that matched scars on her head.

Her body was posed afterwards by her creepy father.

R24 is a frequenter of Websleuths.

R25, If I remember correctly, it was the writer of a book on the subject - the one who invented the theory - and it's a big reach.

R23, R26 God bless you dear

R23 9/10 year olds have and will brutally kill again.

Watch The Good Son.

^ Then watch "The Bad Seed"

I read the thread title as "...the murder of Janbot."

Oh I’m so tired about hearing about this case.

^ You're telling me

The "ransom note" indicates someone in that family did it - but which one? Why? How?

^ They all had it in for little miss princess

R32 I murdered Janbot I pushed it down a well and it got stuck halfway.

Her brother may have killed her but unintentionally? Probably went overboard. Sounds most logical.

First of all, I 💙 the Mrs Patsy Ramsey troll, lol. John did it, John did it , John did it. That is all.

It was a really big deal at the time. The Ramseys lived right down the street from my sister in Boulder so she gave me her end of it. Then they moved to Atlanta right down the street from me and I would give her my end of it

I used to see the Ramseys out and about all the time, but mostly John, because Patsy got sick and died pretty quick

About five years ago I had major surgery, and in my recovery I read the various “JonBenét Canon” of literature. The number one source for factual information is a blog called SolvingJonBenet that seems to still be incredibly active. The link below is the very first post, read that one and the post immediately following it.

That blogger is a logician, he is extremely disciplined in how to reviews the case, hence the “just the facts, ma’am”. If you want to go down the rabbit hole, read the comments too. They come at him with everything they’ve got, but he is able to completely defend his argument and make the case. And what is his conclusion? It was John, duh!!! Occam’s Razor anyone? It is indeed the father, the father is the one who controlled the media blitz that stated John was “ruled out” in less than a week after the murders! I could bomb you with literally 100 reasons why it is John. But be careful what you post about him, his lawyer is the litigious, dangerous, and psychotic Lin Wood!!! Of GQP and MAGAT fame. Wood is an extremely dangerous man, that’s why John hired him.

No, an entire family didn’t lose their minds and engage in a conspiracy together at 5am. That’s completely ludicrous. All the stats point to the father — sex crimes are always the eldest male family member, the odds are 13 to 1 that that is the offender in this type of case, per the FBI.

So he got away with it, gaslighted his wife and family, AND succeeded in accusing multiple close friends of the murder every single chance he got — he even ran for fucking public office. John’s lies are countless (I did count them). Patsy lied about just two small things, both of which point away from John.

R38, please cite for us in a child murder what they stats are for a pre-pubescent offender versus an adult male. Why, oh why, do you think it is “logical” that a nine year old child did this? If you read her autopsy report, the pathologist makes clear that her vaginal walls were healing from a previous penetration that had likely occurred in the previous two to three weeks. He even describes the precise location of the injury in such a way that it is clear he hypothesized that the offender penetrated her with an index finger and was right-handed (if memory serves, he compared the location to clock hands) meaning the previous penetration was most likely a digit, not an object. You think a nine year old boy was “logically” doing that? No way. Adult male.

R33 then take a hike bro

That little whore is dead and buried. let her rest in peace.

I heard directly from a world-famous forensic pathologist that it was the father. Particulate under polarized light microscopy found on fathers fingers also indicated sex abuse.

R44, when was the microscopy done? I’ve never heard that before, can you cite a source please?

That blog I linked is no longer active, the author has moved on, but you could spend months reading all the commentary and visiting all the sources linked. It is amazing. Here is his final post from 2019.

I bet John and Patsy aren't dead. Just faked their deaths and left the country.

R45 I can't answer that but this information was told to me not more than a month ago.

@r46, John's not dead, he's 78 and lives in Lincoln NE

Any good mother or competent housewife knows that when company is coming, even if it's the police, you need to tidy things up. The last thing you would want to be thought of is a slob.

R9 is what I and all reasonable people believe.

@r49, that's exactly what happened. I remember reading a report that said that while the police were combing through the house Patsy sat at the kitchen table face buried in hands sobbing, but her fingers were spread just enough to keep an eye on the "company"

Someone on reddit posted a recent pic of Burke and John. Burke looks like a transgender Patsy.

^ Yikes! That is one creepy picture

R41, admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about this case but I've always leaned toward Burke accidentally killing her, I can see it being John, but Burke is my suspect #1.

[quote]For me, all I need is a conclusive answer on whether or not Jonbenet was being habitually sexually abused before her death. I've heard conflicting reports. But if the definite answer is yes, then John Ramsey is suspect #1

[quote]She had a healed laceration in her hymen. For it to have healed, it would have happened at least 10 days prior to her death.

[quote]Three drs who spec. Is child sexual abuse and treatment came to that conclusion..in ‘98 PR was asked about three phone calls to JBR’s pediatrician on Dec 16 or 17. One at 4.30 left message with nurse..5.15 left message on answering service ..and 6.15 at dr’s residence…she said she didn’t recall doing that …. Timeline fits ..

R14, there's no evidence it came from a factory. The DNA hasn't been matched to anyone, that's just an unproven theory some people want to cling to because they're desperate to blame Burke

R51, because cops are never wrong *rolls eyes*

R44, plenty of "experts" will tell people what they want to hear if they get a nice fat check....

R18, Henry Lee was exposed as a fraud as a long time ago

Scenario: John kills her but tells Patsy that Burke did it, so she went along with the coverup to protect her son.

Anyone who touched the pajamas could have transferred the DNA.

R15, the "TV investigation" was bullshit. Pure speculation with zero hard evidence to back up their claims

No way did that DREAMY Burke kill his sister. Look at him back then, he was a sissy kid. Even Jon-Benet could've kicked his ass.

It wasnt any ramsey familty member, it was a stranger freakazoid that lived in the neighborhood.

R58 what the heck are you talking about? There was a misunderstanding frkm a case in 2019 that's been resolved.

R60, it was on the pajamas AND the underwear. You guys are grasping at straws because you want to blame Burke

This case will never die will it? Everyone knows the damn family covered it up and it was either the father or brother.

R64 is really out of the loop. He'll say whatever you want as long as you pay him enough

Why is everyone looking at me?

R57 I know something about PLM having had training at McCrone Research Institute in Chicago, and there was no "nice fat check" paid to this distinguished pathologist.

Maybe JonBenet was simply 'athletic' and enjoyed horseback riding or gymnastics, which can often lead to a damaged hymen

JonB would have been our Miss Universe this year. Fuck Burke.

Burke started it, the adults finished it. End of story. Merry Christmas.

R41- I think I may have read one your posts about this case years ago. Once you read it all, point by point in the brilliant way that post was written, you can never see it any other way except JR being the murdering sexual abuser. He was trying to book a fight out if Colorado within THIRTY minutes of "finding" his daughters dead body. He hired three attorneys immediately, two for him and PR, one for his ex-wife. Why the ex-wife? What did she know that was that damaging to him? His neighbor was with him when he found JB's body. He stated that JR screamed BEFORE he switched the light on. That was a very dark room and he could not have seen her little body under the blanket in the dark. He wrote that note ti scare tf out of Patsy into not calling the police. ( it didn't work, I think she was frightened of him at that point.) He also need an excuse to get JB's body out if the house. That is why a suitcase was found in the basement, ready to go. Come on! A nine year old? Absolutely absurd.

^^ALL of this crap on this thread is discussed ad nauseam on the Reddit threads about JBR. ALL of it, it's been investigated to the point of exhaustion, the threads have been active for many years, replete with cops, investigators, lawyers, everybody. Go lurk over there if the case interests you. You are not going to add anything new to that morass of speculation here in a few hundred wild-eyed guesses.

R74- Sorry for typos, finishing cooking my Chicken & Dumplings. :)

I agree R72.

R74- Then why are you reading this thread?

@r74, Lighten-up, unsolved murders are fascinating and fun to talk about. Nothing is going to change after all these years so it's just speculation

Well I have just started reading about the Watts case, years late, lol.

R79 The Watts case is boring, the dumb dumb was too obvious and got caught easily. He needed lessons from the Ramseys.

R73, you 100% are right, hello again darling! Fancy meeting you here. Yes, my opinion on the case hasn’t budged nor wavered at all, but I am so glad you brought up actual behavioral analysis of John. Excellent post.

[quote] is discussed ad nauseam on the Reddit threads about JBR.

Yes let’s all RUN not walk over to read what the douchetool redpillers at Reddit have to say about the case.

The final word no doubt! Nuff said!

In the Dr. Phil interview Burke kept referring to Jon-Benet as 'she' in a dispassionate way, like he was talking about a hamster. I don't think he liked her.

In the 'Burke Theory', the part that doesn't work for me is Jobenet's cause of death being head blunt forced trauma AND strangulation.

Let's say, Burke struck Jonbenet with the flashlight, knocking her unconscious and either Patsy/John finds her motionless turning blue. Wouldn't any rational parent have called the ambulance if there's the slightest chance she could be saved? Neither of them have any background in medicine. For this theory to work, they sprang into motion strangling Jonbenet, then staging the crime scene along with the note. The investigation did note the crime scene was staged.

Given Burke's behavioral history, I could see they jumped to the conclusion 'damn, he finally did it, that SOB finally killed Jobenet'. But to then strangle your child and stage her corpse says a lot about P/J.

John doesn't ring as a pedophile for me, tho what do I know I'm just another basic DL queen.

Whether or not he murdered his sister, that Burke Ramsey is one freaky looking schizoid. Maybe he didn't kill Jon Benet, but there's likely a long history of mutilated animals if not missing hookers in his past.

I think John and Patsy set up the scene after Burke killed her in a rage.

The hypersexualized way the parents dressed her, and the frequent bedwetting...suggest that she was regularly sexually abused. Prime suspect...the father.

[quote] that Burke Ramsey is one freaky looking schizoid

He is very handsome.

It's strange how utterly fascinated people are with her murder.

You'd think she was JonBenet F Kennedy. The number of wacky theories about her death are as bad as his.

The mother wrote the note. As to who did it, it's either the mother, the father or the brother. There is no denying that Patsy wrote the note, so looking at anyone but those three is absurd.

Oh crap, now that attention whore McCann bitch will be all over the UK news again, demanding that more money be wasted investigating what happened to her previous little crotch fruit Maddie.

I can buy Burke struck Jonbenet with a flash light, but I don't buy a 10 year old crasping the concept of strangling.

My question is, and I can't find a solid answer online, would the blow to the head have killed her if she hadn't been strangled?

Assuming of course no one called 911

R 92 I agree.

I recall from the ABC (or was it CBS) documentary that yes, it was a fatal blow to the head that they demonstrated could be committed by a ten year old (by having another 10 year old kid hit a mannequin with a flashlight, not sure if this 10 year old is comparable on the aspergers spectrum)

[quote] We all know the family did it.

No we, and you, know nothingt. Stop running your mouth. You sound like a mental patient.

R93- Yes, it would have killed a 300 pound man, according to the autopsy report.

Either the son did it and the parents staged the murder scene, or the father did it and convinced the mother that Burke did it.

Patsy had terminal cancer. She knew she was a near death.

The only way she would keep the secret was if she was protecting her son.

She wrote that note and there was nobody else in that house.

And those McCanns' killed that little girl. Probably by accident.

Her DNA was in the trunk of their car.

The head wound wasn't visible on the outside. It almost cracked her skull in half and she would have died within hours. JonBenet was comatose but alive when she was garroted. I don't think a ten year old would have the strength to do that.

How timely.

Also it was a downward blow to the top of her head. Whoever did it was considerably taller than Jonbenet or standing above her.

I was taller. She stole one of my milky pineapple chunks and I hit her with the large heavy flashlight. Pity. I was still smearing her chocolates with my feces.

There's a theory that Jonbenet woke up and Patsy took her down to the kitchen for a snack. Jonbenet told her mother about the sex abuse and in a rage Patsy struck her with the Maglite later found on the kitchen counter.

Burke, you weren't much taller and you had arms like toothpicks.

I chased her and hit her harder than I thought. Oh well, serves her right.

Does anybody know if there's any pineapple left in the fridge?

R103 Interesting, but that doesn't really ring true. The notion of the father killing her, and then blaming Burke to Patsy sounds plausible.

Why?

Who is this Burke fanatic here?

If it wasn't for the ransom note, I would think an intruder did it.

I think the German guy from down the road made a homemade ladder came in and did it.

G3 did it?

What happened to German Gay Guy?

But what does the intruder get out of this? In other cases of girls abducted from their homes, they are taken and kept (eg, Elizabeth Smart, Jaycee Dugard).

This hypothetical intruder risked entering the Ramsey house on Christmas (a day where the children are guaranteed to get up early), to take and murder Jonbenet in the basement? And, being so familiar with the house he leaves no trace and wakes to up no one? A male with comparable handwriting to Patsy?

Come on.......

John Mark Karr (Alexis) did it...admitted it.

Patsy should have gone into acting. I totally believe her in every interview.

The parents didn’t do it. I always thought John was guilty but after revisiting articles and interviews I am convinced they are innocent. Truly bizarre case though, indeed.

R117 here. Reading about the ransom note and Patsy’s handwriting. I may be wrong!

R118 Boy! The Laissez-Faire attitude you go about throwing accusations, this is DL for chrissake!

True crime was interesting before all the weirdos obsessed with pedophilia, child sex rings and horrific rape took over it with conspiracy theories. Now we see all these threads on here and Reddit about the same horrific case that has been investigated over and over. No discussion about bank robberies, extortion, fake identities, corruption, briberies, hidden information, etc.

We'll probably never know what truly happened with this case.

It's so damn frustrating. There is no question Patsy wrote the note. I've seen computer analysis- the same way they figured out the Joel Stein wrote Primary Colors, of Patsy's past writings and the ransom note. In addition to the handwriting being similar, she words she uses, the phrases, the style- it was something like 95% certain.

So, I don't really understand how anyone can take the notion of an intruder seriously. Patsy wouldn't write the note if an intruder did it. Her decision to write that note was insane. Unless Jerk, I mean Burke knows something and is waiting for John to die, we never will know for sure which of the three is guilty.

That family is disgusting. That poor little girl.

I’ll add that in some documentary, they enhanced the audio of the 911 call after they stayed on the line and it sounded like they said “omg, what did you do!?” Burke said something unitelligible and then John: “we’re not talking to you right now.” Sounded like Burke did it.

The note asks for the amount of John's year-end bonus that year as a ransom amount...The details go on and on and on. There is tons of stuff about what happened while Patsy was there in the house with those neighbors who came over, indicating that the parents WANTED other people to come into the house and "mess up" the crime scene by leaving fingerprints everywhere, moving things around, etc. It's a vastly complicated situation that has been gone over exhaustively by all kinds of experts and investigators for years.

The stuff about the ransom amount and the suitcase it was demanded to be delivered in would have conveniently given John a perfect modus operandi to put JB's body into the suitcase, and then taken it out of the house to be dumped someplace, as he was supposedly going to have to go to the bank to try to get that much cash to deliver as ransom (BUT it was Christmas Day and the banks aren't open - were the Ramseys too addled by this point to realize this, or was something else going on, or was it just a weird coincidence about the large amount of cash and the suitcase?). It's all very very weird.

R121 believes in some unproven "computer analysis" - lol

If she was going to write a fake note as a "cover up" why waste so much time writing such a long note?

Because she’s crazy.

Guys, where's your Christmas spirit?!? I'm sure us DLers can pull our heads together and solve this no problem! Fuck those second tier redditors and websleuths whose been at it for years.

The dots I cannot connect is, say Burke fatally struck Jonbenet in the head, P/J find her blue and motionless, why then strangle her? Was it part of the crime scene staging? I don't think I have the heart to strangle a loved one, no matter how dead they appear.....

Patsy was undergoing chemo at the time and Burke is clearly on the aspergers spectrum, so those two aren't exactly there mentally to go through this mess. This leaves John, whose very much still alive and married to a doppelganger to grown up Jonbenet (if she were still alive today). John married Patsy as a 23 year old beauty queen, I'm starting to think John may not be that 'clean'. If he was the one who strangled Jonbenet, maybe he had been abusing her.

Burke shit in a box of chocolates in her bedroom. Case closed!

[quote] but I don't buy a 10 year old grasping the concept of strangling.

Are you serious? I and every other 10 year old I knew in 1980 understood the concept of strangling. Do you live in Mayberry?

10 year olds are not stupid. This idea that children are innocent angels is so overplayed now. Maybe at 4 or 5 they are but around 9 or 10 they have brains that are developed enough to understand things and learn. American TV with all it's violence too is easily imitable. All in all. I doubt we'll learn anything new with this case that has been investigated to an exhausting amount.

The parents did it or know who did it. The ransom note was written on patsys notepad.

So I know someone who testified before the grand jury. Her name is Lucy Rorke Adams and she is a pathologist at children's hospital Philadelphia. She specialized in shaken baby syndrome and mothers who murder their children (what a specialty)

She talked to me about the case and believes the mother did it. Apparently, mothers often in a rage over bedwitting issues strangle their children and then often use objects to penetrate the child in a rage. For whatever reason, it's more common with mothers and daughters. She believes that's what happened in this case.

She mentioned the ransom note and handwriting match, but her testimony was about the autopsy and her expertise in mothers who killed their children. She was credited with solving a case where 5 children who were initially reported as dying from SIDS were killed by the mother.

Dr Rorke never had kids btw.

R133 hot damn, mystery solved! I buy this theory. The brand new underwear also fits this theory.

I mean, Patsy was also undergoing chemo at the time, which doesn't excuse anything but girlfriend was stressed.

But what about the police phone call with P/J yelling at Burke....

I'm satisfied with the conclusion someone in the family did it. I understand several posters had already stated this and I appreciate y'all letting me get there on my own.

Off topic, but one of the British tabloids sent a reporter with a flower arrangement to the Ramsey’s house in Atlanta.

When someone-and I think it might have been Patsy’s mother, Nedra-answered the door, he announced he had a delivery from Princess Diana snd was immediate ushered in.

Well, if DNA is really that easy to detect, we all know a little strumpet who will be exposed for her pint-sized harlotry.

The intruder theory makes ZERO sense.

^Had it not been for that deranged, preposterous "ransom note," NO ONE would have EVER speculated that that little girl could have been killed by anyone other than someone who was residing inside that house that night.

John wouldn’t have covered for Patsy. He either did it himself or was covering for Burke.

Yup, so typical. Blame the woman for the mans crimes

Thousands of children of color have gone missing in the 25 years this little blonde girl has been dead. White continues to be the gold standard in spite of all the horrors and atrocities white men inflicted all over the globe for centuries since they started leaving their homelands. Sickening.

R141 The Lsa loon at it again.

R15”41, Thousands of white children have gone missing since Jonbenet too that did not get any nationwide publicity. Stop being an asshole.

I'm back from the reddit and websleuth rabbit hole:

- BPD botched the investigation from the start, they believed P/J were guilty. Ramsey defenders hold onto this point.

- Dr. Rorke tainted the investigation as well pointing the finger at Patsy. Dr. Rorke's medical assessment is legitimate (Jonbenet was fatally hit in the head, was alive for up to 2 hrs before she was strangled with a nylon cord). But, it was reaching for her to implicate Patsy - this biased the detectives.

- the intruder theory could work, they/he could have entered and hidden in the house while the Ramsey's were out that night. They had time to write the note (but the intricate details about John's finances narrow this intruder to someone known to the family) , but this is where this theory ends being plausible:

- the intruder meant to kidnap Jonbenet and leave the ransome note, but Jonbenet screamed (neighbors reported hearing a girl scream), startled, the intruder bludgeoned Jonbenet's head.

-but then, the intruder hung around to strangle Jonbenet (which takes a minute) then stage the scene in the basement? If the intruder was startled by Jonbenet's scream to bash her head, they would've gotten outta the house immediately. Instead, they left the note and staged a crime scene to provide police with more evidence?

- a similar crime took place a few miles from the Ramsey house within a year where an intruder snuck in and hid while a family was out. He went and molested the girl in her bed, who screamed, alerting the mother who chased the perp away. This case makes sense: the intruder did not author an intricate ransom letter then take the girl to another location in the house risking exposure. He got the heck out after the girl screamed, and did not stage a scene.

- those close to the case keeps referring to a souvenir the perp took. This is circumstantial and couldn't be confirmed beyond P/J.

- the new DNA evidence (trace DNA found on her shirt, panties, and under fingernails) will likely not lead to anything. They are all from different people and could be from manufacturing or third party handling (the Ramsey's had a support staff). Was there was a group of intruders that night (well, the ransome note did say a group/Foreign Faction, but none left any other DNA)? The DNA under the fingernails is interesting, but the Ramsey's were out at a party that night.

-the staunch Ramsey defenders are family friends. I have no doubt J/P were popular and loved by all. Jonbenet's death was an accident (Burke). I believe Patsy staged the scene and wrote the note, both had a dramatic flair that doesn't typical fit with a calculated intruder.

- this case will remain unsolved because there was never any real objective investigations: on one side the Boulder police suspected P/J from the get go; on the other John has money and influence.

I'll I remember about this case is the little girl was photographed months earlier with a bruise on her face and an Aunt - or some relative - said a bird cage fell on her. Murdered! And almost certainly by a now dead family member.

R126 But it is proven. They used it back in 1993 to find out who wrote Primary Colors. And I'm sure it has advanced since 1993. There's zero question that Patsy wrote that note.

[quote]I don't buy a 10 year old grasping the concept of strangling.

You are so right

[quote]But what does the intruder get out of this?

He wanted to set up John and ruin him.

Burke is so handsome. He must be a gay.

No one could hide in a house, go up and kidnap a child, go down into a basement, have their way, and then go back up and leave a handwritten letter (with words and info coming right from the family and their love of movies) and then break out and no one heard a thing. Come the fuck on. Jesus Christ. You kidnap a child and do shit outside of the residence. You don’t hang around. This is beyond laughable and if they weren’t rich and white peoples would be using their heads.

Touch DNA has been debunked. It’s junk.

Oh, and the letter was written on paper found in the house. lol. So the killer stuck around and wrote it there. lmao

Anyone who believes it was an intruder is too stupid to live.

Keep in mind that the people in charge brought that idiot over, who was clearly insane, back to the country claiming they had solved the case.

JR probably told JB that he had a special Christmas gift for her in the basement, so she walked with him down the stairs. Bastard.

Half-brother says dad and stepmom were innocent and the cops bungled the case.

Um...if they were innocent, your dad and his wife fucked up seriously by having half the neighborhood over.

DNA....XYZ...KLMNOP... unfortunate accidents do happen. No use dwelling on the past I say.

[quote]The police department was criticized for his handling of the case in the initial stages after the family was allowed to move the body.

You mean when her father immediately moved the body through the house and then her mother jumped on it immediately? Yeah, shame on the cops for not stopping that.

R157- Merry Christmas, Mrs Patsy's Ramsey. What do you think about John's newer, younger wife? She looks just like an adult JonBenet.

R159 I'd say that skank wouldn't know how to cover up an involuntary manslaughter, stage a crime scene and botch a police investigation if she had both hands and a flashlight.

@r156, Oh, yeah, that's a credible story. Did you happen to read the next story?...

"MISSING LINK Inside China's 'HUMANZEE experiments to breed apemen to be sent into space'"

Gotta love the Sun

R153, anyone who believes that a little boy killed her and then the parents decided to cover it up is too stupid to live. Is there a documented case of that happening?

R150, rich people don't kill their kids. If they don't like their kids they just give them to a nanny to raise. Poor people who see their kids as burdens kill their kids.

Love the people clinging to the idea that the DNA must come from a "manufacturing plant" when there's no evidence of that

R163 Thank you!

R146, the same "experts" have been wrong many times. There is zero evidence that she wrote the note

and hopefully the most likely scenario that the brother killed her, and the parents covered it up won't be ruled out

R133, there's never been a documented case of a mom killing her kid solely because of bed-wetting. And Patsy had zero history of violence towards her kids or anyone else. Yet she magically turns into a rage-filled monster because JonBenet wet the bed, even though she wet the bed on other occasions and Patsy was used to it. Sure, Jan! Even "experts" can be biased.

John Ramsey is the smuggest motherfucker I’ve ever seen on TV. I really hope to see him behind bars one day. We all know he and patsy did it.

If they weren’t wealthy and well connected he’s be serving his life sentence right now and patsy would have died in prison.

Pats had ovarian cancer so John wasn't allowed to stick his dick in her pussy for a LONG time. He was horny. JB Jr was closest available way to get off. they were leaving on a trip in 12 hours. John went for one last way to get off in their normal habitat since it wouldn't have been as easy on the road.

Patsy's first words to the 911 operator were "We have a kidnapping here!" The ransom note said not to call the police - but they did. The ransom note said not to call anyone - but they called their friends over. The ransom note gave a deadline for the ransom (between 8 and 10 am tomorrow) but that time came and went with no alarm. No one ever heard from the "small foreign faction" again.

R170 Shares the opinion of at least one expert reviewing the case.

Half-brother is the family spokesman.

Burke looks like the Bad Seed.

If you've never seen it before, there is a VERY creepy police film of the inside of the Ramsey house, that the cops made on Christmas night, after everyone has been cleared from the residence. The camera moves from JonBenet's bedroom and bed, out into a hallway (messy, like the whole cluttered house) and down one of the staircases to the living area, central to the kitchen, the dining area, etc. You see the bowl of pineapple where it was still sitting on the corner of the dining table, the big flashlight standing on a little sidetable in a side hallway, the pads of paper where the ransom note table came from, and then, I think, on down the dark stairs to the completely dark basement. There is no commentary at all, it's just a kind of final documentary inventory of the way the crime scene looked and the evidence at the site, just before the police wrapped up the first day of investigation. It's sad and chilling, real horror movie stuff. Probably still on youtube, where I saw it a year or so ago.

R168 my boyfriend Jimmy hated it when I wet the bed

R175 Creepy!

In Burke’s interview (recorded), he got very fidgety and acted weird when the interviewer brought up the pineapple/milk. My take was that there was something significant that happened around the food that Burke knew about and made him particularly nervous.

R177 Yeah, he was being cagey about the pineapple, when he realized what it was, he said "Oh" the way a kid would say it if you showed him some evidence of his having done something bad. But, who knows?

R175: Is this the video? More of the footage is at “JonBenet Ramsey Murder - Crime Scene Video of Ramsey House.” The viewer will get a sense of how chaotic and cluttered the house was. Just like Patsy’s brain, imho.

I’ve always felt Patsy did it. She did it so her precious little girl would be waiting for her in Heaven and to save her, which made sense to Patsy as her mind had been churning with dissociative/psychotic/crazy thoughts for a while. The snarky and rambling note was written beforehand and signed off with the acronym for Saved By The Cross.

Patsy gave Jon Benet a last meal straight out of The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. Little Jon Benet ate some while sitting amongst Patsy’s southern belle house decor. Then wham! and staging.

That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it!

WTF kind of trailer trash name was JonBenét? I know they derived it from the father's first and middle names, but it still sounds cheap and pretentious. The sort of name that would make only flyover frauen would gush over and squeal, "It sounds so classy. So refined."

R180 Well, Patsy was from West Virginia...

R41 You’re right that John did it. Saying Burke did it sounds ignorant.

It was Jeff, the guy who lived above the Ramsey's garage and who moved out the day after the murder. Why does no one ever talk about him?

R179: That's the footage. Bear in mind that these people had had a big Christmas Eve party the night before this was filmed, with a LOT of people in the house. And still there is junk left EVERYWHERE the camera shows. They certainly had a maid, and so you have to wonder about the state that house is in just 24 hours after it was ready for a big party. I am sure the cops had ransacked it for evidence before this film was made, but I doubt they would have strewn things everywhere and just left stuff all over the place like the movie shows. On the main floor where the family lived, you would expect there to still be a lot of clutter after Xmas morning, when people would have been tearing open presents and strewing the wrapping, but I am sure that not too much of that happened in this house on that most special of all Christmases...The house is a fucked up MESS.

BR was known to spread his feces around his sister’s bedroom, on her bed, in her candy box, etc. That is a seriously fucked up thing for a kid to do. It’s also reported that JBR was at the pediatrician’s office for a number of weird injuries in the year leading up to her death.

I believe BR was responsible for his sister’s death (even if he didn’t deliver the final death blow—one of the parents may have finished the job and staged the scene to protect him). That’s the only scenario that explains why so many friends and family members kept quiet and rallied ‘round the Ramseys because, gosh, B was a CHILD and they can’t lose another one! I never cease to be amazed at the lengths parents will go to protect their bad seed children and their heinous behavior.

I'm sorry to be disagreeable to some of you,, but I've been convinced the son did it for years now. He never meant to kill her. This was not sinister or evil. They argued about the fucking pineapple bed time snack, and he whacked her in the head. Just like he'd probably seen them do on TV shows dozens of times. She was supposed to get up and cry. But she didn't.

Mom and Dad took over. Mother picked up Jon Benet and cuddled her, telling Burke she would be fine. and they put Burke to bed. They had a situation to deal with. Jon Benet dead, and Burke killed her. So they staged a kidnapping and a ransom note, put her in the basement, reasoning that a lot of people were in and out of the house because of the Christmas holidays, etc., and it was some passing stranger, or a transient worker. Burke himself has probably blocked a lot of this out of his memory.

[quote]He never meant to kill her. This was not sinister or evil.

I disagree completely.

Burke reminds me of Macauley Culkin in The Good Son.

[quote]Burke looks like the Bad Seed.

He is so handsome

Here is the ransome note vs her example

You are the jury

Puerto Rico has long been a basket case. It would be worse than New Mexico or Mississippi if it were a state

I do think we need to end the current status. We should either make it a state or give it independence. No more commonwealth crap.

R180 Your thoughts on the name LeBron?

Nasty old, uneducated Karens will blame then, nine year old Burke.

Karens read the Murdoch tabloids. Or, just look at the pics.

Datalounge is so buggy — R191. Does it to me too.

Burke was 10 but now 9 all of sudden. Karen’s blaming 6 year old Burke!

Burke despised his sister.

r197

He did not. They got along like typical brothers and sisters.

He smeared feces all over her bedroom. What else did he do…

Feces smearing is a classic sign of sexual abuse. Papa John was an equal opportunity child diddler.

The interviewer is trying to get him to say pineapple. Just before he finally does, he stops and lets out a breath. And his demeanor changes after it is said.

r200

That is a myth.

Burke was 9 yrs 11 months old when it happened.

One thing we never learned was if Patsy took any medications. John stated in an interview he took melatonin to sleep. Who knows if Patsy took harder stuff like Ambien.

Boulder PD and DA have no reason to deny FOIA release of all of their notes and videos.

Who is this Burke stan? Wow.

he's this hot guy

I agree R202. I feel the feces stuff got exaggerated over the years. Kids do get constipated and do innocently pick at themselves.

I’d love to see all of the police notes, forensic analyses, photos, and videos. I do not understand why there still is a FOIA cloak.

I’ve always wondered if BPD ever hired religious scholars/psychologists to examine the note and Patsy’s history. S.B.T.C. and Victory! can mean a lot to Bible believers.

Good grief^.

R41 sex crimes are not always the oldest male, although that may often be the case. In college I had a friend who was in the process of being raped by her older brother in a family bathroom. Her parents came home and she was able to escape, but her brother told her he'd kill her if she ever said anything.

R201 Wow. Thanks to this thread, I have spent the past 48 hours in an irretrievable rabbit hole on this case. Wow-SO much to study. Utterly fascinating. I agree with the poster above; I did not become spooked reading about this until I saw pictures of inside the Ramsey house. The 90s were already creepy enough but seeing pics of the cluttered creepy 90s mansion was too spooky. Gave me nightmares. I know, MARY. The interview from Linda Arndt, the first detective on the scene, is also a hair-raiser, and the fact their close friends the Whites have since become estranged from the Ramsey’s is telling. They are guilty. There are a million glaring reasons why they are guilty. Patsy with her crazy bible-thumping West Virginian mountain genes freaked out and killed her daughter. She told them they put her straight to bed without thinking they would find the pineapple in her system. She lied about that, they would not cooperate with the police, the ransom note is laughably close to her handwriting, she answered the door in the morning still coiffed and dressed from the night before, we could go on and on and on. So guilty. They pretty much ran the show when it came to the authorities as well, just a completely bizarre, baffling, fascinating case. Edit to add Burke was too much a pipsqueak to crush JB’s skull and he seemed mostly comfortable in the interview above. He did not do it but was coached by Mom and Dad.

R206 That is a GREAT point about the acronym signing off. I also want to read Fleet White’s deposition. He was side by side with John when JB’s body was “found”. He knows the body language, verbiage, tone that was used. The White’s distanced themselves with the Ramsey’s shortly after this ordeal which tells you all you need to know, really.

*distanced themselves from

R200 also seen in those with autism and if you've ever heard Burke speak . . .

It's really amazing how plausible the four scenarios are when I hear a person to believes in one of them speak it.

1. John did it, and Patsy doesn't know and he tried to make it look like her handwriting. Remember, he was a CEO, and you have to be a sociopath or psychopath to be a CEO.

2. John did it, Patsy does know- Pats wrote the note, while he dictated. This makes sense to me because there are scores of movie references in the letter, and I would guess John would be more apt to know Dirty Harry than Patsy.

3. Patsy did it- Neurotic perfectionist loses it. CEO husband helps over it up.

4. Jerk did it- very plausible.

I have to admit, if you just go by the interviews, Patsy is extremally convincing. John isn't in the least, for what it's worth.

So, I'm certain it was one of these four options, but I'm hard pressed to say which one.

Sexual abuse among siblings or close-in-age relatives is more common than many would like to admit. The abuser is not always a father, uncle or male authority figure. It seems poor JonBenet was abused by everyone in that dysfunctional family. Patsy was the typical narcissistic stage mom who saw her daughter as a little doll not a human being. Moms like that can be abusive emotionally and physically to their daughters while coddling and defending their sons. If JonBenet was bedwetting and also getting hurt and violated regularly by Burke. Someone neurotic and high-strung like Patsy would definitely blame it on her daughter because she didn't even see her like a child but rather an object to live vicariously through. I can see Patsy hitting her out of anger or Burke hitting her because he's "playing" and either John or Patsy finishing her off and staging the cover-up. They were a rich, respectable white family and had an image to maintain.

Burke is quite the handsome man.

Jonbenet was beginning to assert herself. Before the Christmas party she argued with Patsy over a red turtleneck sweater. Patsy wanted her daughter to wear red and black to match her outfit but Jonbenet refused. I could see Patsy being irate because Jonbenet didn't want to be her Mini Me. Then there's the American Girl doll that Patsy spent so much money on. It was made to look like Jonbenet. She was far from thrilled by it, she unwrapped the doll and just set it aside.

Yes. It's possible Burke could have seriously hurt her but I don't think he was capable of killing her. He was still pretty young. Maybe Patsy saw Jonbenet was injured and instead of taking her to a hospital, she finished her off out of anger over the sweater situation. Most cases of child abuse and child murder are in fact done by angry and mentally ill mothers. Despite the popular belief that all women are all nurturing.

There was an interview where Patsy said Jonbenet's death was a blessing in a way because she would never know the pain of having cancer or the loss of a child.

Not sure if true but I read that she was sexually abused. Was the brother fucking the kid?

The thing that gets me is Burke was too young to be fully accountable. If he was molesting JonBenet and constantly injuring her over and over. Then he should have been put away to a psychiatric facility because clearly they could not discipline or control him themselves. He was a threat to their daughter and other children. You can't force a child into psychiatric care but I'm sure medical professionals would have reviewed him and admitted him. It's painful to give up a child but if you can't take care of them and keep them from being a danger to others and themselves. What other choice is there? Granted, he seems better now. I think the Ramseys were just very vain about their image and rather ignore Burke's issues than address it because they didn't want to lose their status as this perfect all-American family.

[quote]Most cases of child abuse and child murder are in fact done by angry and mentally ill mothers. Despite the popular belief that all women are all nurturing.

This is false, R218. Filicide rates are nearly equal among mothers and fathers with fathers killing slightly more often than mothers do but the rate of fathers committing filicide is reported to be decreasing. Mothers are more likely to kill newborns and babies up to 12 months old and fathers are more likely to kill older children. With mothers the causes are postpartum depression, the child/pregnancy being unwanted, psychosis or overzealous disciplining; fathers who commit filicide usually have a history of domestic violence but revenge against the mother is also a motivator for killing their children.

There is SO much to the very short period of time involved in this story, it's hard to remember it all. The Ramseys' dog was being kept in the house across the street on Xmas Eve, because the Rs were set to fly to Colorado on Xmas morning (a private flight was chartered), and they were leaving the dog with the neighbors until they returned (after also flying on and visiting family in Atlanta, if I remember right). The dog, if it had been in the Ramsey house, would have barked if a foreign faction had actually gotten into the house that night...You get the idea that the dog spent about 50 percent of its time in the neighbors' house anyway, like the Rs didn't really take close care of it...There was a scream that a nearby neighbor heard in the middle of the night (coming from the direction of the Ramsey house), and maybe one light was seen coming on, down near the ground level from outside, by the same neighbor. I think Patsy claimed that a homeless person had come to the door of their house and asked for money or food, or had been seen wandering down the street at night, yet no one else in the neighborhood ever saw it (she was lying, of course, but WHY?), etc. The strange facts just pile up and up against some kind of shady action being performed by these people. The main reason the Fleets grew chilly towards the Ramseys is that Patsy and John had NO QUALMS about insinuating that the Fleets 'COULD HAVE' had something to do with the murder (on the basis of no evidence whatsoever). It's pretty clear that Patsy is HEAVILY doped up in every public appearance of hers in the year following the murder, from JBR's funeral in Marietta, and on. John also handles her like a puppet in the films of them being interviewed by the press, cutting her off, and so forth.

I just watched the interview they did with Barbra Walters in 2000. They talk a good game. They spend a lot of time professing why they are not guilty but can’t answer questions like why did they say she went right to bed when in actuality she was found with food in her stomach. I don’t know, I just think innocent people don’t have to work that hard trying to prove why they are innocent. If I am innocent I am keeping my cool because it will come out in the wash. An intruder stalking the child they dressed up like a tiny sex princess and breaking in / hiding in that creepy ass house is not a far-fetched theory; there are just too many bizarre unanswered contradictions involving these two to ignore.

Sidenote but Burke sued CBS for an ungodly amount of money and settled on 30 million, I believe. Set for life.

[quote]Not sure if true but I read that she was sexually abused. Was the brother fucking the kid?

A pre-pubescent 9 year old boy was not sexually abusing a very young girl. That doesn't even make sense.

John Ramsey shows nothing but poker face during interviews. No anger, no anguish, so sadness. Complete poker face without any break of emotion.

R117 - it was a My Twinn doll, not American Girl. They were made in Englewood (Denver) and were all the rage in Colorado back then. Yeah, Jon Benet looked at it and put it aside.

R226, putting JBR to the side for a moment, is does happen.

According to the housekeeper there was no affection between John and Patsy or towards the children. The marriage was more like a business relationship. One of Patsy's main jobs was keeping the kids from disturbing their father. One time when Patsy was in the hospital and Nedra wasn't available John had to get Jonbenet dressed. He went ballistic, ranting how this wasn't his responsibility and Patsy should be there.

Did Burke also write the "foreign factions" letter? He was a nine year old minor. Responsibility resided with the parents.

A bunch of young-male (has a penis) hating nitwits in this thread. Probably they are the anti-trans hate spewers as well.

Anyone who's spent who's spent time around Southern women especially of the Baptist, Pentecostal or Evangelical strain would know they tend to be very unstable and passive-aggressive due to emotional repression, internalized misogyny and the pressures of living up to a ridiculously high standard of femininity. They do tend to snap and go bonkers. Often claiming "The Devil made me do it!" They are extremely harsh on their children, very disciplinarian to the point of abuse because their image as good wives and mothers are so ingrained in their sense of being and they can't risk having the neighborhood or church gossip about them. Patsy was of the type who was perfectionist to the point of pathology. Poor JonBenet was a victim of that type of parenting.

John convinced Patsy that Burke did it. But you can hear how confused Burke is during the 911 and she tries to get him to shut up.

Daddy did it.

The business of the old pervert breaking in after scouting around just seems.... peculiar.

Too bad every murdered child case doesn't get this amount of attention.

You either have an overactive imagination or you watch too much TV, R232, because that's not even remotely true.

Yup the father did it. The blow to JonBenet was very intense, not a blow a nine year could land.

Was it true that child porn was found on JR's office computer?

Why did JR hook up with Natalie Holloway's mother?

Something always seemed off about JR. Recall reading that their pastor refused to shake his hand after his child's murder and that he stopped attending church afterwards. Too much gossip?

I think you can tell something’s off about JR from his choosing Patsy as a spouse. You’d expect him to be with someone who fit his image better. Patsy was never all that attractive, not accomplished, very “country.” I’m assuming no truly elite woman would have him.

The murder of Janbot? Someone finally killed that horrible psychotic cunt.

R232 John and Patsy were Episcopalian, and were married in a Presbyterian church.

I had forgotten, but I went back and watched the videos of their interviews. Patsy IS actually very convincing in some of the interviews. She seems genuinely anguished, she cries real tears, and does seem confused and bewildered by the whole thing. However, John is just very strange. Never cries, even though at one point while talking about finding her, he appears to break down. A tearless break down.

When they ask both of them separately about specific letters from Patsy's handwriting samples that look EXACTLY the same as the ransom note's, they both claim they see no similarity. They are both clearly lying. No person with eyesight would say that some of the letters weren't drawn in the exact same way. But they both lie and they have to know that everyone knows they're lying.

I guess now I am liking the John killed her, blamed it on Jerk, and Patsy thought she was protecting Jerk. But maybe Patsy had a suspicion that John did it. There are things in the interviews that vaguely suggest that.

There are many factors that are tipping points for me that show the family was involved. But not one tipping point for any one of the three individuals. And, of course, nothing even close for the intruder theory.

The mother wrote the letter. It was so long and asked for the amount that was the husband's year end bonus.

Also, this was a sexless marriage. She had medical issues and they haven't fucked for years. So it's possible that he was fucking the child. the child was not a virgin, according to autopsy report...if my memory serves.

Well, Burke DID think he deserved Jon Benet's "Runway Walking" medal......

As with Poirot, the solution lies within the little gray cells. The psychology, mes amis.

Read "A Mother Gone Bad: The Hidden Confession of JonBenet's Killer," by Andrew Hodges.

Many subconscious references in the "ransom" note to cancer---its progression and treatment; finances; plural perps; etc.

The parody "letter" in r5 is not far off the actual Christmas letter written by Patsy. She showed jealousy towards John's "new boat" (aka, vessel), e.g.

I went down a reddit hole on this last night and they make a case for it being an intruder. They bring up evidence and dna that was found at the scene that Boulder police have not made public because they want the parents to have done it and they ran with that narrative. Yesterday I was convinced Pats was the culprit but today I actually believe the Ramseys are innocent of killing her. It is interesting and I recommend skimming through it.

Patsy would not murder her child. John would've just sent her to a Swiss boarding school. Have you ever seen "Facts of Life"? And Burke is too handsome to commit murder.

There were one or two drops of blood at the scene, mixed with Jonbenet’s blood, that did not match any of the Ramseys. There were cigarettes found at the scene as well. The theory is it was several men part of a group. She was also bashed extremely hard in the head, that it must have been a man with a baseball bat or something of that sort. There is the police report that details Patsy and Johns behavior that day and it is consistent with parents going through serious trauma and shock, ie, vomiting, hallucinating, eating valium. It is under the “who killed Jonbenet Ramsey” section of reddit. I am interested to know what some of you think, if you do read it.

Patsy was a former Miss West Virginia and had a degree in journalism. She was hardly Ellie Mae Clampett.

^Ellie Mae was sweeter and much more beautiful!

^I had not read about strange blood being present, or any odd cigarette butts, on those Reddit threads, which I read all of about a year ago. I do recall that the broken basement window, the supposed entry point of "the foreign faction," was in fact broken such that the glass was on the OUTSIDE of the house, meaning that it was more than likely broken from the inside...there was, of course, a lot of wondering by the police about whether all (or any) of the doors of the house had been locked that night, and what evidence there was to support ideas about that. I made a mistake up above about the Ramseys' party. They had been at the FLEET's party on Xmas Eve, the night of the murder, and it was the night before that that the Ramseys had had a party in their own house. - R184

Patsy's mother certainly didn't consider herself to be country. She called Boulder a cow town and thought the Ramsey's should be living somewhere more cosmopolitan.

^Nedra must have been an nasty bitch. One of the Ramsey’s past employees said that Patsy was sweet, but with Nedra you were the servant.

Nedra also would chide Patsy about her messy house. Linda Hoffman, the Ramsey’s housekeeper, said Nedra would say “Linda’s not here to pick up. Linda’s here to clean.”

Nedra's the one who said Jonbenet had only been a little bit molested.

So not rape - rape. Just a wee bit of diddling?

Nedra. What a name.

R247, I've read every legit book on the case. Don't recall any extraneous "drops of blood" or cigarettes. Reddit is gossip

But there is DNA there that doesn't belong to anyone in the family...I recall that at least.

So much folderol about this case.

I just now read a CNN piece about this "new DNA to be analyzed," wherein said article it was written that the parents had been "cleared" of suspicion. THAT WOULD BE A BIG "NOT."

Patsy wrote that lengthy and even snarky ("Don't try to grow a brain, John") "ransom note." On her own tablet. After practicing first (draft found on site).

Now, come on, people. Let's use the brains God gave us. You're the guy who somehow got into the Ramsey house on Christmas, to lie in wait until the family returned home from their visiting rounds. Your intention is to abduct JB for ransom.

BUT OOPS! YOU FORGOT TO BRING YOUR RANSOM NOTE! Good thing you could find Patsy's tablet! So now you leisurely wrote a rough draft, then the final one.

COINCIDENTALLY, you asked for a ransom MATCHING EXACTLY John's Christmas bonus---$180,000! Why not $200K? A half-million? Nope. You like the number $180,000.

Now, where to leave this note? How about on that (less-used) back staircase?! Kitchen tables are so obvious and passe'!

But there's one teeny sticky wicket. Getting the child out of her bedroom, out of the house, and away without waking anyone else.

Well, maybe you should permanently silence her! Smash her head in! Garrote her using a paintbrush of Patsy's! (That Patsy---again so unwittingly helpful in providing for your needs!) Might as well sexually abuse her while you're at it! Then carry her to an obscure hidey-hole in the basement....

ALL WITHOUT PATSY**, JOHN, OR BURKE WAKING, HEARING OR SEEING YOU BOTH!

Leave the kid and the note. Take the cannoli.

**Luckily for you, Mr. Murderer-Fake-Kidnapper, Patsy slept remarkably soundly in the very same clothing she had worn all day and in which she would greet the police on December 26. So much for Mrs. Meticulous!

Now what? Well, since the family is all still so sound asleep, why not just leave by a door? Nah! Climb out of a small basement window onto snow, and DON'T LEAVE ANY PRINTS!

Now, you're new at this ransom thing, so who can blame you for FORGETTING TO CALL WITH MONEY DROP INSTRUCTIONS?! Maybe you're too scared. After all, it's clear now that the Ramseys called the police, even though you warned them of a "small foreign faction" that would punish them! It did sound good when you wrote that, though.

Well, maybe you'll call later. Hopefully before they find the body. Or not.

All in all, as kidnappers go, you were remarkably forgetful and evil. But hey---you're still walking free!

R245, Yeah, the Boulder police would rather hide evidence---evidence known to Redditors, mind you---than have a suspect stand trial. How utterly daft.

R247, People who just committed a heinous crime and fear being caught just might vomit, cry, etc.

One point about that "small foreign faction": the author of "A Mother Gone Bad" (people are eager to read nitwits on Reddit but not a serious analysis by a psychiatrist??) suggests that the phrase is Patsy's subconscious expressing her terror of her spreading invasive cancer, of which she ultimately died.

The ransom note is the weirdest, most nonsensical thing about all this, and is probably the reason 98% of the population thinks they did it to this day. But, bringing in your own pen and paper means to bring in outside clues, and the intruders knew there was pen and paper in there. Perhaps they studied Patsy’s writing. I believe one or two intruders were camped out in that house for hours while the Ramseys were at the party. There was unknown male dna on her clothes and under her nails, and everyone at the party had their dna taken and were ruled out. Seminal fluid I believe, too. This little girl was killed and tortured in such a horrific, savage fashion, I do not think anyone in her family could do such a thing. I know it sounds insane and even stupid, and I WANT to believe Patsy did it, but I think it was well-planned out group who stalked them and their home for some time.

A BA in Journalism is like being in the top ten of your sixth grade graduation

To win Miss West Virginia all you do is have to take a bath and still have more teeth than not.

The utterly child-like naiveté of people thinking that a parent just couldn't kill his or her child, or that a sibling couldn't kill another, is, to me, the single most remarkable part of this tragedy.

Why, it's almost as if we didn't have ancient and even foundational stories depicting such crimes!

Or the modern examples of Susan Smith, Diane Downs, the Wests, Karla Homulka, John List,....

If the creepy walk thru video from Jonbenet's bedroom to their basement proofs anything, it's that no intruder could've picked up a child and made it without tripping all over the Ramsey shit.

John and Patsy's story of what happened is like how they kept their house: unnecessarily convoluted and full of shit.

R263 The naiveté of thinking a scrawny, autistic nine year old could collapse a skull with a flashlight. Listen, no one is saying parents don’t kill their children, this is particularly gruesome and if you look at hard evidence - not National Enquirer tidbits that were sold to by the BPD - the chances of it being an intruder are greater than everyone wants to admit. Sordid, scandalous tales are fun but look at the hard evidence, the evidence the BPD had gone to lengths to conceal from the public.

R265 A tiny little girl’s skull yep, quite easily. autistic tards have super human strength. The BPD had absolutely no reason to not want to catch an intruding child murderer roaming the streets.

The BPD was just as transfixed on the parents as we are. “They HAD to have done it” was their thought, and rightfully so. But they also bungled the investigation from moment number one and pushing the parent narrative allowed them to gloss over that fact. I encourage you to read Linda Arndt’s play-by-play of that morning. She all but implicates JR but you get an inside glimpse as to how extremely fucked up the cops handled that case. No sniffer dogs, no police back-up for hours, allowing the house to become essentially a party. Just craziness.

r265, are you seriously saying that the same BPD who've treated the Ramseys with kid gloves from day one have been hiding exculpatory evidence because . . . ?

The DA was handling them with kid gloves, not necessarily the BPD. It is said the BPD were intimidated by their wealth but most of the force, for example Linda Arndt and Steve Thomas, were really pushing for the parents. The grand jury wanted to move forward with an indictment but the DA, who was close with the Ramsey’s attorneys, did not sign off on that and it never went to court. Some officers resigned over that.

Fleet White wrote an open letter damning the District Attorney, Alex Hunter, demanding he be removed and replaced from the case. In turn, they fucked with him harder and kept him as a suspect although he had been cleared 3 times over.

Fleet White

I love debating and hearing theories on this case. Its so fascinating.

The Ramseys had nothing good to say about the Fleet and Priscilla White in their book. It’s been a while since I’ve read it, but I know one of their claims was Priscilla was “jealous”of Patsy.

R273 Ugh, Patsy is totally the type to brand others “jealous” of her, in a book about her daughters savage killing, no less. She seemed like a real piece of work.

Fleet and John’s falling out happened because the Ramsey’s seemed to be evading law enforcement. They had a squabble in Atlanta and it was said after that, Fleet and John no longer were friends. Fleet felt John was acting shady and his trust of the Ramseys had dissolved. In other words, their best friends even thought that they may have had something to do with it.

Fleet suspected John from the moment he found the body. He said it was pitch black in the wine cellar but John began screaming the second he opened the door. There was no way he could have seen JB but he went straight for her body.

R232=Dr. Phyllis

Patsy Ramsey should be considered a DL fave with her flouncy self.

She is certainly an *HONORED* adviser on DL, you ought to know that.

R267, I'm pretty sure I have so read; it's been a while.

The BPD were ridiculous in their deference to the Ramseys, eschewing basic investigative procedures, such as: Don't allow anyone but police to search the house. After successfully "searching" with his friend for the missing JB, John carried (with his arms bizarrely straight out) the body of JB up to the living room, whereupon Patsy threw herself on the corpse. Both sly ways to "explain" the presence of parental DNA on the dead child.

John was even allowed to leave the house for a period of time.

It seems to me the BPD wanted immediately to eliminate, not pinpoint, the parents as suspects.

The following are items that show up in both the Ramsey case and The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (book, play and movie);

"Sandy Stranger had a feeling at the time that they were supposed to be the happiest days of her life, and on her tenth birthday she said so to her best friend Jenny Gray who had been asked to TEA at Sandy's house. The speciality of the feast was PINEAPPLE CUBES WITH CREAM, and the speciality of the day was that they were left to themselves. To Sandy the unfamiliar PINEAPPLE had the authentic taste and appearance of happiness and she focussed her small eyes closely on the pale gold cubes before she scooped them up in her SPOON, and she ... Both girls saved the CREAM to the last, then ate it in SPOONFULS."

Pineapple was found in JonBenet's intestine. A bowl with pineapple and milk and a spoon next to a glass with a tea bag in it were found in the home.

""Oh dear," said Rose out loud one day when they were settled to essay writing, "I can't remember how you spell 'possession.' Are there two s's or -?""

'Possession' was misspelled in the ransom note.

"It was impossible to know how much Miss Brodie planned by deliberation, or how much she worked by instinct alone. However, in this, the first test of her strength, she had the VICTORY."

The ransom note was signed off "Victory S.B.T.C" .

R281- This is why I will always love DL.

The following are items that show up in both the Ramsey case and DAWSON'S 50 LOAD WEEKEND:

Both Patsy and JonBenet were QUEENS. Coincidence? I think not!

Dawson was a PERFECTIONIST who would not rest until the task at hand had been completed. Sound like anyone else we know?

Dawson used a FLEET enema just moments before filming began!

TEABAG-- need I say more???

Patsy's talent as Miss West Virginia was reading a scene from The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie.

Yeah, Patsy was obsessed with the book The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie and its author.

The pineapple thing is interesting. A picture from the crime scene shows that there was a bowl of pineapple and cream on the kitchen table. I've never heard of that combo.

Who know how much there really is to it, but the Jean Brodie connection is interesting.

I'm also stuck on the part of the note that seems to be directly taken from Dirty Harry. The note is really fascinating.

[quote]Yeah, Patsy was obsessed with the book The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie and its author.

THAT'S IT!!! You solved the case. The murder is Dame Maggie Smith

Wasn't there true crime books in their bedroom? I have forgotten which ones, but the ransom note had direct quotes from one of them.

Watch the CBS documentary, R288. The quotes were from movies, one of them being Dirty Harry.

Quote: A federal court ruled it highly unlikely that Patsy wrote the note, citing six certified handwriting experts. The court bemoaned the existence of self-proclaimed experts – without credentials – trying to wrangle their way into the case by accusing Patsy without scientific basis. The "expert" that claimed PR wrote that note was hired by- wait for it! - John Ramsey.

S.B.T.C. Saved By The Cross.

This really removes all doubt as to who wrote the ransom note. In the sample she provided, Patsy writes out the world electronic in the segments. She connects El, has e alone and she connects tronic. It is very unlikely for two people in such a circumstance to do that.

Patsy wrote the note. Any theory needs to deal with that fact to be taken seriously.

R292, those two handwriting samples look nothing like each other to me.

JR wrote that note. His massive ego gives him away. That note is all about him, including the amount of his bonus.

So many wrong basic facts on this thread. She was found Dec. 26 not on Christmas. It was a Thursday so the bank would be open.

Also, Berk wore loafers with no socks in the therapist interview. Psycho!

That was my fault. I had just watched the interview with Burke, and the interviewer seemed to be under the impression it was Christmas morning.

Patsy wrote the note. At first, she attempts to disguise her handwriting. Later on in the note, she slips back into old habits. It was her, maybe dictated by John.

Maybe one in a million people would happen to connect the same letters that Patsy connects and the author of the note connects. No one trying to imitate her handwriting would think to do that.

Patsy. Wrote. The. Note.

R297, is that one word out of the whole note? Also--I still don't see what you're pointing out.

R292, here is the deal. Handwriting analysis was not governed by any professional body at the time of these murders. That means there was no defined best-practice, no safeguards for ethics, no peer reviewed studies, no guardrails at all. If memory serves, I believe the FBI didn’t formally recognize this area of forensics until about 15 years ago. That is also why handwriting analysis is rarely admissible in court, it just doesn’t hold up well in a criminal case because enough of it is actually subjective.

The correct way handwriting is compared is when the subject has an exemplar from prior to the crime, because then the writing is unaltered, undisguised. LEO had Patsy write out the sentences after the crime (why not have John provide samples too LEO?!?). A second layer is that when something like a random note is evidence, analysts (rightly) assume that the perpetrator disguises their natural handwriting style to shield their identity. That means that even if the writing looks like it belongs to Patsy, if the killer is not Patsy, doesn’t that mean the killer tried to hide who they are by changing their handwriting style? Most disturbingly, no one ever talks about the possibility that John wrote the note to appear like Patsy’s writing…..bone chilling, no? And just seeing how many times John threw both his wife and son under the bus, I think it is highly likely he tried to set-up Patsy with the handwriting!

Hopefully my link works, this is the only known example of John’s writing, but I cannot remember if this court document was filled out before or after the murder, I want to say beforehand. People have tried for years and years to get more samples of John’s writing, but oddly, he’s worked very hard to ensure they aren’t out there. If any of you are public record wizzes, I would encourage you to comb databases of public records that John wrote on. See John’s writing below, and tell me if he is “ruled out” as the author, give me a break. At the end of the day, no one can be “ruled out” based on handwriting, that’s preposterous. John got himself eliminated based on something that wasn’t even admissible as a defense in a courtroom. I know popular opinion is that only a woman would be so verbose — but couldn’t a nervous offender over-communicate in the adrenaline of the moment?

Read the note as John talking to himself. It is bizarre how much the tone changed from the beginning to the end, like he is engaged in a soliloquy in which he starts to fall apart by the end of the note, he sounds much more desperate at the end.

Ransom Note.

A federal court ruled it highly unlikely that Patsy wrote the note, citing six certified handwriting experts. The court bemoaned the existence of self-proclaimed experts – without credentials – trying to wrangle their way into the case by accusing Patsy without scientific basis. Why doesn't this matter?

I hope this link works. It has a ton of info on this case.

One of the linked videos suggests that if it was an intruder (which would explain the unmatched male DNA) that the person possible was in the house before the Ramseys got home from the Christmas party and had time to write the note.

R303….the intruder theory has been utterly destroyed, the only people pushing it were John and Patsy, oh, and that crazy old man Lou Smit, the cops despised Smit because he was so clearly biased. If you read the book by the cop who thought Burke did it (I disagree with that theory), the author even has a chapter called “the evolution of John’s story” or something, where he takes you through each version of the intruder theory as told by John. Every time he told the story, he added dramatic details that were new. It’s such a strange phenomena, people trying to piece the puzzle together with John as the innocent — they twist into pretzels to make it be Burke or Patsy.

I just think it is absurd to believe that a nine year old child committed this murder. The very fact that the Ramsey's sent Burke next door to stay with the neighbors that morning totally debunks that theory. He could have talked. He probably would have talked. He was a child, a very confused, frightened child. They wouldn't dare take a chance like that.

Oh, I know, R304, but it was in the video and it would have made sense if it weren't for the crazy note.

R301 Two days ago I was firmly in the “Patsy wrote the note, you are an absolute idiot to think otherwise” camp but now I would bet on it being an intruder who was in their house for hours before they came home. What a bizarre case. The odds of an intruder having such similar handwriting to Patsy and all the other coincidental freakish things that line up in this case. Truly one of its kind in the history of the U.S.

R307, the intruder theory has been debunked.

No it hasn’t, r308. In fact, nothing in this case has been debunked.

Yes, it has r309. Please point us to a single shred of evidence that supports it. The only freaks pushing it (were) the corrupt DA’s, Lou Smit, and the Ramsey’s. The Ramsey’s even bankrolled a documentary on the intruder theory that never aired here, it was only shown in Britain I believe.

There is zero evidence of an intruder beyond circumstantial clues. In fact, there is actual evidence that it was John, starting with his mountain of lies.

Who do psychics say the killer is?!

R312- Her baby raping daddy.

R281, Then there's JonBenet and Jean Brodie = JB!

How would the intruder know about the bonus amount?!

Again, whomever wrote the note connects the letters El and ctro. The other letters all stand alone. This is very specific and personal to the person who wrote the note.

When Patsy was asked to write out the word SHE CONNECTS THE EXACT SAME LETTERS! There's just no arguing that this is damning.

There would be no way for anyone trying to imitate her handwriting to know to do there.

And I want to see some confirmation that "a federal court found the handwriting didn't match." That sounds like bought and paid for Ramsey bullshit. The same reason they were exonerated by the Boulder DA.

Patsy wrote the note.

Oh, r315. The "intruder" people like to make up reasons, like John told everyone he knew, or some such idiocy. Pasty wrote it in her controlled panic because the total was on her mind.

I say about this case the same I said about OJ: The "real killer" will never be "found." OJ did it; the Ramseys did it. Too late for justice now, though. OJ can't be tried again. Patsy's dead. And there's no interest by law enforcement to investigate any further the involvement of John, including for abuse (JB was taken to her pediatrician frequently, plus she was doubly incontinent. When she urinated, the child would ask any adult in the house, guest or family, to wipe her, according to "A Mother Gone Bad.").

R316, then why did a court of law say that it wasn't her who wrote the note?

R312 one psychic said Patsy did it. Not sure who else has weighed in.

R315. According to the Ramsey’s, the villain entered the house shortly after the family had left for Christmas night festivities at the home of Fleet and Priscilla White.

The villain rifled through John’s personal papers and found the amount of his year end bonus. The crafty villain included the amount in the random note to cast suspicion on John and Patsy.

R320 ok, say there was an intruder, and their goal was to kill Jonbenet as revenge on John or the family, where is the intruder now? John and Burke are living their best lives right now, why isn't this foreign faction going after them, especially after the CBS defamation settlement?

I don't know about living their best lives, r321...

R318, You need better drugs; this hallucination is just sad.

No court looked at any evidence.

R321, If an intruder's goal was to murder JB, he would not horse around, risking getting caught either right then or by trace evidence, by writing a rough draft and then a LENGTHY ransom note; by carrying JB from her room; by "enhancing" the murder with rope, paintbrush, and a heart drawn on the child's palm.

The theory of an intruder is beyond risible. Even Patsy, in a televised interview, looked straight into the camera and declared there were TWO killers. She, of course, was correct.

In fact, r318, Patsy was distinctly NOT ruled out.

R323- A federal court ruled it highly unlikely that Patsy wrote the note, citing six certified handwriting experts. The court bemoaned the existence of self-proclaimed experts – without credentials – trying to wrangle their way into the case by accusing Patsy without scientific basis.[29]

they are rich, they can hire many "experts" to testify at trial to say whatever to support their defense.

R324 John and Patsy had different stories about the heart drawn on JonBenet’s hand.

John claimed she took “pride in her appearance” and would never mark on herself . He suggested the heart was drawn by the kidnapper.

Meanwhile, Patsy said that JonBenet was always drawing and writing on herself.

Thank you R281.

Patsy was a highly-read and very intelligent gal. She read The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie in her talent competitions. And being a journalism major she absorbed all sorts of movie and print media.

Patsy sacrificed her innocent daughter so Jon Benet’s soul would be waiting for Patsy in heaven. Patsy knew her cancer would come back. She wanted her sweet baby to be in heaven to await her. And that’s it. You’d have to be an evangelical to understand it.

How it got so complicated with the inept BPD and diminutive frightened DA Alex Hunter is one for the ages.

JR did everything to implicate his wife, while convincing her that he was defending her and he was the only person who was in her side. He is insidiously evil.

For r326.

R326, Your linked article is worthless; it is a page of links.

But I have yet to locate any article mentioning your claim about a "Federal court."

Meanwhile....

R328, Regarding John's accusing another, I'll quote Mandy Rice-Davies, who once said about a man's claiming to be innocent: "Well, he would [say that], wouldn't he?"

^John didn’t think the BPD should be questioning him because he said he didn’t commit the murder.

I haven't looked into this case a lot but I remember seeing something and thinking 'reading in between the lines, the cops who investigated the case think that it was Burke and that the parents covered it up but they don't have enough evidence to prosecute'.

BD stands for both Boulder Police Department AND Borderline Personality Disorder.

Coincidence?

Ramsey is quite the arrogant bastard, isn't he, r334?

^He surely is. John didn’t come across too well in their book. I found him to be a pompous windbag

Isn't he almost broke now? Also, can his psycho pitbull lawyer Lin Wood still practice as an attorney?

R332:

Here once again is the one example of John's printing that's been made public, a document that was probably never submitted at all to the authorities:

And lo and behold! We see a distinct back-slant. Now back-slant does not always mean left hand. But very often it does. And here's John's signature: (At link below)

Very clearly back-slanted. Now John has always claimed he was right-handed -- and has denied he was ambidextrous. Which might be the case. But he certainly has a tendency to write with a back slant. And it's the presence of certain letters and words in the ransom note written with back slant that convinced the authorities the writer must be ambidextrous. So, gee. It would be very interesting to take a peek at the exemplars he provided. Maybe someone at the National Enquirer would be willing to track them down for us???? I wonder . You can compare JR's handwriting at the link below.

The cops initially believed that John did it. Once they set their sights on Patsy, they haven’t unwrapped their thought process to realize that John has gotten away with murder.

The “unknown DNA” is from the last person who handled the gloves that John used. If they could find that person and verify his alibi, it would shake shit up. But John will likely pass away before he’s ever convicted of murder.

Patsy was interviewed for six hours. The cops should’ve realized that she was clearing herself during that sit down. So many things were a puzzle to her. The pineapple. The tea bag. JonBenet being in a different outfit than the one she went to bed with. Plus Patsy was a heavy sleeper. But again, the keystone cops didn’t put the pieces of the puzzle together. Meanwhile there were no prints on the flashlight or the bat. Obviously the killer (John) wiped them off.

R343-JR would not be interviewed alone, yet he allowed his young son, the killer, to be interviewed all alone, for hours.

As Patsy said, and I posted, there were two killers. She probably whacked JB in the head out of exhaustion and anger at another bed-wetting--wash-and-dry routine before an early morning trip.

Then she and John concocted and perpetrated the entire rest of the situation and story, figuring JB was too far gone to call 911, Patsy could be arrested, yada, yada.

She wrote the note; he "hid" (and "found") the body.

Patsy being the killer is rooted in misogyny. Give it up. And I don’t know of any cancer patients turned killers.

It matters where JonBenet was killed. If she was killed in the basement, the crime was not one of impulse. Someone led or carried her down there; they had time to think about what they were doing.

Correct. That person is John.

Unfortunately, the coroner fucked up by not determining an exact time of death.

I, the OP, am glad this thread did not turn into a Ramsey sympathizing 'but the intruder did it', or 'what about the 19 cigarette butts the foreign faction left behind' screamfest.

R347 I believe cops found a puddle of dried urine in basement, can anyone confirm?

I believe the coroner couldn’t give exact time of death because of basement temperature.

^There’s actually a fluid behind the eyeball that, if drawn, can give almost an exact time of death. The coroner neglected to do that.

I read that in ‘Perfect Murder Perfect Town’

R346, You, perhaps, need either to get around or at least read more.

Your "personal circle" argument ignores too much to address.

[R353] Still waiting for you to list the cancer patients who snapped and killed their daughter. Perhaps you should get out more. No one has ever come up with a convincing theory for Patsy being the killer.

Official/law enforcement theories of the crime:

R355 I can buy all of those theories except Lou Smit for obvious reasons, but at least he didn't use the 19 cigarette butts found outside the home as evidence

My big problem with LEO is that they always treated John and Patsy as a single unit, “the Ramsey’s”. As in, they appear to have never truly considered the possibility that the entire thing was done by John and John alone! Isn’t that amazing? And again, it’s because of John that the police thought that way, he literally controlled the narrative from the beginning.

R357- Now be fair. In how many cases involving pedophilia and the murder of a female child is the oldest male of the household ever guilty? It is always the youngest child. Yes, those murderous little bastards. Pbbtt!

No theory involving Burke even makes sense. People refuse to accept John molesting and killing his daughter due to the horror of it all. That’s why they would rather pin it on Patsy or Burke.

John molesting her, Patsy living though her as she dressed her child as a porn star and her brother jealous of her all killed Jon Benet! The dad diddling this poor kid , she finally complains to the mom , mom tried to shush her, she falls down the stairs or mom hits her and she dies so mom created the elaborate scene and writes a ransom note with the fathers holiday bonus as the amount which was oddly specific like not a rounded number. Handwriting is EXACTLY Patsy Ramseys. Jon Benet never had a chance. That poor child. Also, it was well known her genitalia had scars from prior sexual assault yet the pediatrician never reported it.

360 Uh, no. John is the sole killer. And explain why Patsy would write a note, leave her prints on things in the kitchen and stay in the same outfit. Such a smart killer. Cause she did not do it!

John most likely did it, but I can go either way on whether he was the sole person involved in the cover up.

I can definitely imagine a woman like Patsy, after discovering the horror that her husband had molested and murdered their little girl, still covering for him. She was image-obsessed to the extreme and would never want to face the public shame of John’s crime coming to light, and also the loss of her lavish lifestyle if John went to prison. Perhaps to her it was like choosing the lesser of two evils.

Patsy’s handwriting samples did look somewhat similar to the ransom note, and it’s interesting that she changed her handwriting style afterwards, but ultimately I still think handwriting analysis is bunkum. So, I’m not all that convinced either way.

I think Linda Arndt, the first detective on the scene, who was there that morning when all the drama unfolded, never stopped suspecting John. Her reaching out and visiting Patsy on her death bed was very telling. Patsy never gave John up, Linda didn't get her deathbed confession.

John was/is a CEO, you'd have to be cuckoo for coco puffs to be one.

💩 👠 all over this thread.

There are samples of John’s writing on the internet that match the ransom note. The killer (John) used her pad and 7 pages went missing. Those pages were drafts. Whose handwriting did he have in front of him to use to try and disguise his own? Patsy’s. But some of y’all expect her to be this perfect killer when most of the evidence points away from her. It makes perfect sense for John to use her pad because it points away from him. Everything he did that night was to throw suspicion away from him.

R361, In no way did John write the smart-alec "Don't try to grow a brain" crack. That was Patsy totally. She grabbed her tablet while John desecrated and hid the corpse.

Oh no, r366, John couldn’t *possibly* be talking to himself.

R367, Please. Read the entire note. It is not the "voice" of a man.

This is the last photo in the book "A Mother Gone Bad." The author states that the positions of John's hands, making such a close enclosure of JonBenet's genital zone, strongly suggest molestation. And we know what the autopsy showed.

Moreover, as for "examples of John's handwriting," "the Internet" is not the most reliable source of info. [My example just from yesterday (a digression, but still): You will find many articles declaring that the herb Basil is "also known as St. John's Wort." Even Wikipedia! This is not only patently absurd by observation; it is wrong! Basil is sometimes---sometimes---known as "St. JOSEPH'S Wort."]

Maybe after his father dies Burke will tell the world what he heard and saw that night.

John only provided the cops with certain examples of his handwriting. The sample on the net is a document that I highly doubt they used for comparison. If the keystone cops did not allow John to basically run the investigation, they might’ve finally used their brains to figure out that he did it.

Burke does know something about that night but John has him under control as well.

R368 That photo is thought provoking. Burke, separated from the other three - an afterthought - is smiling like a retard; Patsy is showing a lot of leg for a good Christian woman; and daddy is getting handsy.

"JonBenet was the kind of girl interested in how many trips she had taken around the sun and the rhythm of the earth under her feet. She was an incredible little kid who loved to be tickled. Miss America was the least she could have been." - Steve Thomas

[quote]She was an incredible little kid who loved to be tickled

In hindsight, the start of all her problems...

Do you think us/the media villifying Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder, CO and giving John Ramsey a free pass is misogyny?

John did it, he was molesting Jonbenet.

Daddy wants to test the DNA.

R260, They were then the quietest group of stalkers-in-wait-turned-murderers EVER IN HUMAN HISTORY. Were they professional mimes?

"Knowing" that they would "find Patsy's tablet" so as not to bring in "clues" from the outside DID NOT PRECLUDE THEM from bringing an original to copy from, instead of writing, and leaving, a freaking ROUGH DRAFT.

And why the "War and Peace" of ransom notes? The psychology is all wrong.

Why Christmas night, when the family members could still be all hyper and excited, instead of exhausted?

What makes you conclude that the Ramsey house was easily invaded? There was no broken door nor lock. There was no evidence that a group stood around in the yard waiting for each to enter through the basement window.

There was no stalking faction, small, foreign, or otherwise, out to get the Ramseys by murdering their 6-year-old child.

BTW, think about that last point. You are positing that a group of adults who KNEW THE RAMSEYS enough to know the amount of John's bonus; who knew the layout of the house; who predicted the family would sleep remarkably soundly; who agreed on the ransom note's wording without speaking about it----

Would be able to not simply murder the 6-year-old Jon Benet; but crush her skull, garrotte her, draw on her palm, and sexually abuse her (probable corpse by then).

It is not an easy thing to become an evil child-killer, I should think. And you are suggesting not only that a group became so, but a group who knew the Ramseys.

Adults who somehow were never seen arriving; never seen or heard while committing their crime; never seen departing.

And never found, accused, arrested, tried, or convicted.

No, it is also not an easy thing to consider a mother's murdering and desecrating her own little girl, a child she had taken such pride in.

But the rational must prevail. We must acknowledge that in our midst live the likes of Susan Smith, Darlie Routier, Diane Downs, Andrea Yates, Christy Sheats,....and Patsy Ramsey.

Was it a premeditated killing by Patsy? I side with the "spontaneous angry** attack that caused the mortal head injury," followed by Patsy and John's cold-blooded "in for a penny, in for a pound" decision not to call 911, but to fake the elaborate "kidnap" scenario, complete with inflicted horrors.

**An exhausted, overworked, and very ill Patsy might have simply flipped out that evening with having to deal with one more instance of her daughter's known double-incontinence.

**Moreover, Patsy had to get everything and everyone ready to fly out on their vacation in a few hours.

Oh crap! Ancestry and 123 & Me may have a killer in their files. I hope they’re not related to me.

No one has ever come up with a logical reason for Patsy to be the killer.

There are enough signs pointing to John. And only John.

And John is asking the police to use new testing? He is truly a sociopath.

The DNA is probably from an Indian underwear factory worker.

Body language says it was patsy. She covered up scene so John didn't know it was her.

R377, That is completely untrue. You apparently have simply not read enough, including this very thread ( my r377, e.g.).

If what you mean us that nobody has convincingly shown Patsy to have committed PREMEDITATED MURDER, then that is how you should express it.

I meant to refer to my post at r375.

Name one cancer patient who suddenly went into a rage and killed the daughter that she doted on.

It says alot that people refuse to see that John was the likely adult who abused his daughter, killed her and then set everything up so that nothing points in his direction. But very few folks know that he failed his lie detector test and he’s ambidextrous.

John is the one who conveniently found her body, contaminating the crime scene.

John is the one who disappeared for 20 minutes while the police were in the house.

John is the one who knew his bonus amount. Patsy did not know that amount.

John is the one who cheated on his first wife and Patsy wasn’t privy to this information.

When you also realize that John wasn’t having sex with his name wife who had cancer, then you realize the horror of him abusing his 6 year old daughter.

GTFOH with the Patsy the killer nonsense!

R384, ew mah Gad. I knew none of that.

We all know that dreamy Burke did it. The want to make sure he stays out of prison with his old handsome self.

John’s own best friend said that John screamed before he actually “discovered” the body. Talk about dramatic Meryl Streep acting. And what did John later do? Try to accuse that same frame of murder.

*same friend

The police’s biggest mistake was lumping John and Patsy together. Separate the two and you have your killer.

Detective Linda Arndt said she looked into the killer’s eyes that day. She was referring to John.

R385, The precise behavior, if witnessed, that could trigger a spontaneous murderous impulse with a handy heavy object on a mother's part.

R384, Your points are valid, but for the "bonus" one. We don't know what Patsy knew of it.

But even so, that John could act coldly after the fact does not preclude his having conspired with his then-distraught and probably praying to Jesus wife to stage a crime scene so depraved that no suspicion could---to his way of thinking---be directed at him and/or Patsy.

But Patsy's mind couldn't contain it. She had to tell the TV audience that "there were two killers."

No need for naughty initials, r385.

Patsy hit her and she died so she created fhe elaborate coverup. She hit her after JonBenet complained loudly once again that she hated being a dress up doll, wanted to be a normal kid and her daddy was playing with her private area. Patsy was a FAILED BEAUTY QUEEN obsessed with LOOKS and STATURE. She couldn’t risk losing her place in the community if her CEO money making husband got convicted of Child Sexual Abuse so she was enraged and poor little JB got hit then killed. Patsy knew the exact amount of Johns Christmas bonus so she crafts a random note like a stupid lunatic with the exact amount of the bonus. Her handwriting was proven to be a match as well. Burke clearly knows something , he seems like he’s traumatized and threatened to not believe what he saw. JonBenet did have scars on her vagina like R360 said and it was known her hatred for parents per witnesses like the hair stylist who said it was hours of working on a child per her mother and the child (JB) falling asleep while saying she hated it.

Yawn @ the Patsy theories. Y’all sound stupid!

The thing that Burke can corroborate is that Daddy was up and in JonBenet’s room. That’s why the police wanted to interview him a few years ago.

At this point, they've given more man-hours to JonBenét's murder than they did to JFK's.

People don't realize that it is common for freaks to sneak into house and stay for hours while u sleep. The only thing odd is that the bonus amount was known. Most smart people think it was intruder.

If someone did that to your child would you sit with authorities and tell them everything you knew, even at the risk of your own well being in order to catch your child's murderer? Or, would you refuse to be interviewed for weeks, wasting precious time and not offering information that could possibly help capture the perpetrator?

R395 your main priority is self-preservation. The police were only looking at the parents. The child is dead. Finding the perp is not bringing back the perp. If they did it, they would not being going on tv. There was evidence of an intruder. Police butchered case.

There is absolutely no evidence of an intruder. And the person who was the ringleader of not talking to the cops was John. Patsy was heavily medicated during that time period.

Patsy’s handwriting was never proven to be a match. Y’all want her to be this perfect killer but the perfect killer would not write a note on their own pad. But a killer who did not want signs pointing to him, would. Burke and Patsy have been accused of years while John sits on his murderous ass, just like OJ.

[quote]There is absolutely no evidence of an intruder

Lack of evidence is not evidence

The father is a cold son of a bitch.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. She wrote the note. Maybe John tricked her into writing it by saying Burke did it and they needed to protect him?

R397 blood DNA on panties,foot print in basement,open window. Definitely an intruder. Crime scene was butchered hiding more evidence. Guilty folks go into hiding.

R402, there was no open window. There was a window with a broken pane of glass; John claimed that he had broken it in the summer. The window was covered with an intact cobweb. There were faint marks on a suitcase in the basement that people speculated might have been a footprint. There were no footprints in the snow outside of the basement window.

John did it, he either fooled Patsy into writing the note or he wrote himself mimicking Patsy's handwriting. They didn't separate or divorce either which odd as most kidnappings and murders of children leads to marital breakdowns. Patsy is an old school Bible-believing Protestant type who stands by her man. I can buy she probably believed it was an intruder at first given how hysterical she was. But eventually she probably figured John had something to do with it and she continued to cover for him until her death because 1) she had an image to maintain, it would make her look awful to be married to the murderer of her daughter even if she was ignorant of it at first, 2) she wanted to protect Burke and keep stability for him, he lost his sister and she didn't want him losing his parents either. John is psychopath. Burke is just a weird kid probably on the spectrum.

John did not fool Patsy into writing the note. The whole purpose of the note was to give him some time to get rid of JB’s body. It did not work because Patsy called the police and torpedoed his plans.

Patsy’s samples were in front of him and he did attempt to mimic her style.

[quote]Name one cancer patient who suddenly went into a rage and killed the daughter that she doted on

Are you for fucking real?!

This is a frau cunt thread.

R403 they even knew the brand of the shoe. A detective got in and out through window. Spiders repair webs within hours.

John broke the window to stage the intruder theory. He then told them that he broke it once it became apparent that that theory was hogwash.

406 Waiting for the name. Cause there isn’t one you can give.

Ask Johnny boy how JB got pineapple in her system. He lured her downstairs and fed her some. Patsy was genuinely confused when asked about it being in JB’s system. But y’all want to paint her as this perfect killer.

Can someone give me a Burke timeline? You all know so much detail and I've been wondering when he comes into the picture in this. Not necessarily involved, just where does he fit in?

Burke was ruled out by the police at that time. The conspiracy theorists have tried to paint him as the killer.

He lives near John. John keeps him close because Burke can blow the lid off of this case by revealing what he knows from that night (which is that John was not in bed, as John likes to claim).

R412, can you tell me how it happened? All I know is that he was JB's older brother, that there was talk that he did it, but honestly that's all. I could go down a google rabbit hole, but I've learned more details from differing informed points of view here. Thank you.

The gist of the case comes down to this. Why would anyone kill this young girl? It all comes down to the sexual abuse. The young son did not do it. There’s no logic in parents covering it up for him, especially if it was accidental.

That leaves 2 people. The ice cold father and the “crazed” doting mother.

Anyways, John Ramsey had a lot to lose by his 6-year-old exposing him as a child molester. That night, he was in her room. I’ll spare you the details of what he was doing in there. Then he lured her down to the kitchen. Then down to the basement. Again, when you consider the horror that this young girl knew her killer. The “game” of making her father happy. It’s all truly a tragedy.

The strangulation occurred after the killing. The letter was a means to get rid of the body. If you read the letter, it gives John the opportunity to take control of the situation and get his daughter back. It’s meant to tell Patsy that she’ll lose her daughter if she doesn’t follow the instructions. Of course, she did not. And that is important too. Patsy calling the police no longer gives John a chance to get rid of the body.

And where was Patsy during the murder? She was asleep. She told the police that John came to bed that evening but she never actually witnessed that. She was noted by all, as a heavy sleeper. John himself told the cops that she was a heavy sleeper. And she was in the same outfit from the evening before. Who took a shower that morning? John. Why is this important? Everyone claims that Patsy being in the same outfit is a sign that she killed her daughter. This would require her to be the dumbest killer in history. Meanwhile, her husband conveniently takes a shower. Something else that points him away from the situation. A chance to wash away any evidence.

As with any killing, no murder is perfect. Fast forward to the letter found. Patsy calls the police. Then calls all of her friends. She probably did suspect him in that moment. The female detective on the case has given interviews saying that she looked into the eyes of the killer. She is referring to the moment that John brought the body upstairs. John “finding” the body hours later is crucial. The cops bungled it earlier when they couldn’t open a door in the basement. During all of the chaos, he disappears to go and “check the mail.” This gives him the opportunity to clean up some of the things he could not clean up earlier. As for the “mystery” DNA. That’s another red herring. It’s touch DNA. John wore gloves while trying to clean up his mess. JB was redressed. Why did this occur? Cause her nasty ass father ejaculated and that evidence had to disappear. Whoever touched those gloves prior to John is the source of the “mystery” DNA.

And where did this case all go wrong? The police had never dealt with something like this in Colorado. Then John pretty much took control of the situation. Months of the couple not speaking to the police. Leaks were also coming from the police department. Then the “leak” that the handwriting didn’t rule out Patsy. So many things fell into his favor. And Patsy was heavily medicated during this time period. Even if she suspected him, what was she going to do? Everyone thought she did it. And John was supposedly ruled out as the note writer. He never should’ve been. Oh and Johnny is ambidextrous.

The police did initially believe John did this solo. The molestation was a one off. John did not have a history of doing this repeatedly. But that also saved his ass. The theory was that John was such a good Christian man and there’s “no way”he could have molested his daughter. Eye roll.

The police’s determination that Patsy did it is what has caused them to not solve this case. But they did not catch the frequent times where things were a puzzle to her. And why were they a puzzle to her? Cause she’s innocent. She didn’t know the number of John’s bonus. She did not know why her daughter had on a different outfit. She did not know why there was fruit in her daughter’s stomach. The housekeeper revealed that she did not know anything about a broken window in the basement. Patsy herself did tell the police he broke it. But why would she not support this? He’s her husband. They spent hours grilling her compared to Johnny boy. There’s one point during one of the interviews where he sees something in a pic (I can’t recall what it is at the moment) and says “that’s not supposed to be there.” He would know. He committed the damn murder.

Fast forward, 20 years later, John Ramsey has only made money through frivolous lawsuits. He has done nothing to find his daughter’s killer. He stood by while his wife and son have been accused of murder. He is a fucking psycho.

[quote]Can someone give me a Burke timeline?

Yeah like when did he go from being a sissy boy to a studly man.

That's a compelling argument in favor of the father doing it.

Well said.

R415, Your first 3 "She didn't know" statements rely solely on the veracity of....Patsy. DUH.

I still think Patsy flew off the handle and battered JB. And then wrote the note, as her role in the "let's salvage what we can with Burke" cover-up and lies.

But why be snarky in that note to John? Because Patsy blamed him for "making her do it," mainly via his sexual abuse of JB. Either Patsy walked in on such that Christmas night; or, as I think, she, by now exhausted, had to clean up once again after the incontinent JB, whose very bed-defiling (especially fecal) was the girl's reaction to her abuse.

Both parents stayed awake through the night, planning, staging, rehearsing.

Did they do all that after Burke slew his sister (after eating pineape together)? Was Burke the abuser? IDK; could be. He, too, was incontinent and apparently filled with rage, smearing feces on walls.

There is a family photo, however, in "A Mother Gone Bad," that shows John's left hand....

R418 I don’t think Burke was incontinent—he just had Autism (mild form used to be called Asperger’s). Smearing feces was something I’ve seen kids with Autism do and isn’t uncommon when young.

Burke is suspicious to some because he was mean to his sister but also during the interview with police (recorded tape) he acts different from his baseline at some points, particularly when the subject of the snack/pineapple comes up, suggesting that he knows something at least about the pineapple situation that he shouldn’t know.

Burke was also possibly heard in the 911 call (post assumed Hangup) saying something like “what did they find?” Or something close and John allegedly responds “we are not talking to you.”

Those quirks make it seem like Burke could’ve hit JB over the head with the flashlight over the pineapple (if it was his and she grabbed some) and then almost died from it. Forensics looked at it in that ABC documentary a few years back and they concluded it was possible for an 8-year old boy to exert enough force to break the skull. Whether it actually happened and the parents decided to cover it up is the question.

Daddy did it.

John is the only one who murdered his daughter.

1. Can we all agree that the writer of the note would be forced to disguise their writing, correct? On what planet does it make sense that if Patsy was involved, that she would make zero attempt to disguise her writing? It makes zero sense. The killer would naturally have disguised their handwriting.

2. The purpose of the note was to terrify Patsy. Think about a fucking mother reading that her child would be beheaded, and all of the threats revolves around them contacting authorities.

3. If Patsy wrote the note…..she would not have called the police. I challenge you to debate this crucial point.

4. The first handwriting expert declared that John had been”ruled out” in one week, and this expert was part of John’s defense team. Because John had incredible PR, he got the media to push that narrative.

5. Again, read the chapter, “the evolution of John Ramsey” from the BDI book.

6. Read the autopsy. The coroner notes a partially broken hymen, and inflammation/healing tissue in the exact spot of a right-handed index finger inside her.

7. Patsy has only been caught in two lies, the biggest one being that she backed up John’s window story. The second lie centers on who decided to call the police — her story changed. The first time (can’t remember where, sorry) she made it sound like it was her decision. Her second version made it sound like it was John’s idea. John has told countless lies, I could list probably 20 right now.

8. There is evidence pointing to John failing the lie detector test his defense gave him.

9. As stated by others, the “mystery” DNA is simply touch DNA, it’s a red herring per the actual experts. Read them.

10. There is no evidence pointing to an intruder, and in fact, John us the one who walked the inside of the house with police wherein he showed them how each point of entry was secure, so “there was no break-in” as stated by John.

11. I cannot remember the source, but I believe there are labs that show smears on her body that indicated smeared semen that had been wiped down so thoroughly that there wasn’t enough there to ID.

12. A nine-year old boy does not know how to make a garrote. A beauty queen does not how to make a garrote. A former Navy sailor did indeed have extensive training in knots.

13. As stated earlier, John took a shower, but Patsy didn’t. Patsy called the police, John didn’t. Patsy showed true emotion and fought in her interrogations. John stayed cool as a cucumber.

14. Due to this case, I actually researched pedophile behavior, and there is indeed a sub-group that only abuse if given the right opportunity, they are called opportunistic sexual abusers. With Patsy’s cancer, that was a terrific opportunity for John, non? I think that nobody, including Patsy, expected her to live! Imagine his horror when she did live, but he had already been abusing JB!

15. According to FBI statistics, the odds are 13 to 1 that the perpetrator is the eldest male of the house.

16. It is 100% certain that the White’s do not speak out because they still Hope against Hope that a case is brought against John.

17. I could keep going, if you want more, just say so, ;-)

Who had sex with her and did the garrote r479?

A lot of child abusers are opportunistic predators rather not strictly pedophiles. They often will prey on anything in their vicinity regardless of age or sex or relation. It's about power and humiliation which gets them off sexually.

The 911 call transcript. Does anything stand out?

Patsy Ramsey: Police?

911: What's going on ma'am?

Patsy Ramsey: 755 15th street.

911: What's going on there ma'am?

Patsy Ramsey: We have a kidnapping. Hurry, please!

911: Explain to me what's going on. Ok?

Patsy Ramsey: There. We have a, there's a note left and our daughter's gone.

911: A note was left and your daughter's gone?

Patsy Ramsey: Yes!

911: How old is your daughter?

Patsy Ramsey: She's 6 years old. She's blonde, 6 years old.

911: How long ago was this?

Patsy Ramsey: I don't know. I just got the note, and my daughter's gone.

911: Does it say who took her?

Patsy Ramsey: What?

911: Does it say who took her?

Patsy Ramsey: No! I don't know. There's a, there's a ransom note here.

911: It’s a ransom note?

Patsy Ramsey: It says SBTC. Victory! Please!

911: Okay, what's your name? Are you Kath...?

Patsy Ramsey: Patsy Ramsey, I'm the mother. Oh my God! Please!

911: Okay, I’m sending an officer over, OK?

Patsy Ramsey: Please!

911: Do you know how long she's been gone?

Patsy Ramsey: No I don't! Please, we just got up and she's not here. Oh my god! Please!

911: Okay, Cal....

Patsy Ramsey: Please send somebody.

911: I am honey.

Patsy Ramsey: Please.

911: Take a deep breath and...

Patsy Ramsey: Hurry, hurry, hurry!

911: Patsy? Patsy? Patsy? Patsy?

R425 she says please a lot. I wonder why?

You wonder why? Cause her fucking daughter is missing!

Like the 911 operator is the police fairy, please please please send police. Please please

[422] is absolutely correct. Listen to him or her!

R422 do you obsess about other things in the same manner?

Sometimes r430 lololol….I’m way past the point of researching it any longer, it’s kind of a hobby that I’ve since retired. Might as well put it to use on this annual thread.

Intruder did it. Lots of people had keys. John would not say $118 k in note as that is incriminating. They would not have killed the daughter in such a barbaric way. One of his disgruntled employees.

R432, come back with a single piece of physical evidence, thanks sweetie.

Bippidy, bobbity BOO bump.

Bump