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Breaking News in JonBenet Ramsey Case--Part 2

The sad discussion continues...

Previous thread below.

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by Anonymousreply 194August 8, 2022 4:59 PM

Yes! Thank you, OP

by Anonymousreply 1January 12, 2022 12:05 AM

here's a photo of John and Patsy at their wedding in 1980

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by Anonymousreply 2January 12, 2022 11:13 AM

It's an interesting wedding photo because John actually looks happy here. He looks in love. He's always described is cold. This is the first image I've seen where he isn't "cold."

by Anonymousreply 3January 12, 2022 11:14 AM

The look on Patsy's face in this photo where she is leaning over JonBennet's grave is very odd. What an expression! Also, the way her hands are clutching neck, as if mimicking strangulation in a comical way. Does anyone read anything into this image?

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by Anonymousreply 4January 12, 2022 11:22 AM

R3 Patty looks medicated there, too.

by Anonymousreply 5January 12, 2022 11:25 AM

I maintain that the BPD is stalling because they know the Ramseys will be exonerated through dna testing. That said, on the 25th anniversary of her death, people want answers. I think this case will be solved soon.

by Anonymousreply 6January 12, 2022 11:33 AM

@r4, why would they take such a staged photo like that? It's actually morbid

by Anonymousreply 7January 12, 2022 11:52 AM

That photo at r4 looks fake to me. Can anyone verify it’s real?

by Anonymousreply 8January 12, 2022 12:29 PM

^ Yeah, I didn't think about that. I'm sure it's fake

by Anonymousreply 9January 12, 2022 12:35 PM

That is a genuine photo of Patsy Ramsey at JonBenet’s grave.

by Anonymousreply 10January 12, 2022 12:43 PM

^ Are you the genuine photographer?

by Anonymousreply 11January 12, 2022 12:48 PM

There’s another photo from that same day floating around the internet where Patsy’s face is more clearly visible, and also clutching her neck. Just google it.

by Anonymousreply 12January 12, 2022 12:57 PM

WTF. That photo, if real, is very disturbing.

by Anonymousreply 13January 12, 2022 1:03 PM

"Just google it"

Not for anything in the world

by Anonymousreply 14January 12, 2022 1:05 PM

I would imagine any mother losing her marbles after living through that.

by Anonymousreply 15January 12, 2022 2:29 PM

Who took that photo R4, John?

by Anonymousreply 16January 12, 2022 2:53 PM

OP, thank you so much.

R4, her gesture is actually beyond common — people in grief frequently state that they feel actual physical pain in their heart. A “religious” person like Patsy likely also contemplates her “heart condition” or the state of her heart spiritually, as in ‘what has happened to her heart (soul)’? Many mothers associate their heart with motherhood, if I was inclined, I’m sure I could produce literally one million images of grief-stricken mothers clutching their hearts in mere seconds. I could produce yet another pile of images of mothers wailing after the death of a child, fades contorted. Most who have seen this firsthand describe it as the worst pain you can ever imagine in another human being.

While I’m the opposite of a Patsy fan, I don’t believe she did it, so it feels really inhumane to second guess or question her pain. Shouldn’t we all give each other the benefit of the doubt?

by Anonymousreply 17January 13, 2022 2:58 AM

The podcast, A Normal Family, is wonderfully done. Episode 5 is the best. Patsy did it. Lots of interesting information.

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by Anonymousreply 18January 13, 2022 6:24 AM

Madtv summed it up over 20 years ago

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by Anonymousreply 19January 14, 2022 1:25 AM

I just started listening to the podcast upthread. I don't think I've ever read the entire ransom note (missive) before. The ransom note says "I respect your [John Ramsey] company"???? Who the hell would take the time to compliment the father and his business before demanding money in exchange for his child's life? John Ramsey is an egomaniac, and a stupid one at that.

by Anonymousreply 20January 14, 2022 1:20 PM

R20 The podcast is so well done! Lots of great details. The podcast mentions when the Ramsey's little pet dog was sick, Patsy quietly went to the pet store, got a new dog that looked just like it, and secretly got rid of the family pet rather than deal with a vet bill or a sick pet. This speaks volumes of what kind of a person she was==appearances were everything. This is another reason I think she's guilty.

by Anonymousreply 21January 14, 2022 1:30 PM

^ Sounds like there was little room in Patsy's life for imperfection

by Anonymousreply 22January 14, 2022 1:32 PM

[quote]I would imagine any mother losing her marbles after living through that.

And by that, you mean writing that rather long ransom note with excellent penmanship--after taking the time to do a draft, as anyone diligent about every task she does would do.

Thank you.

by Anonymousreply 23January 14, 2022 1:33 PM

OMG! Those '80s wedding dresses are AWFUL.

And that hat Patsy is wearing does nothing for her moon face.

by Anonymousreply 24January 14, 2022 2:16 PM

R21 Whoa, whaaat?

by Anonymousreply 25January 14, 2022 2:25 PM

R18 thank you for posting that new and well-done podcast. I like how they spliced in autopsy and police report verbiage which countered the bs the Ramsey team was spinning.

by Anonymousreply 26January 14, 2022 2:51 PM

I'm into the second episode, and agree, the podcast so far is really good. And I think it was John--and that he gaslighted Patsy into thinking it was an intruder. I really don't think she was in on it. But if it was Burke, then one of the parents was definitely in on it.

by Anonymousreply 27January 14, 2022 8:00 PM

I’m convinced that John murdered his baby daughter. 😢

by Anonymousreply 28January 14, 2022 11:07 PM

Wow. That podcast.

I never realized how crazy Patsy was.

by Anonymousreply 29January 15, 2022 12:38 AM

That podcast is quality. It also makes a strong case for Patsy as the murderer. It implies JonBenet's vaginal injuries were not sexual but were abuse due to a certain type of corporal punishment: a woman's finger with a long nail inserted into the vagina just far enough to cause pain to punish for the peeing and pooping JonBenet was doing every night in her bed and night clothes. Patsy could not tolerate imperfection and was forcing JonBenet into child pageants she didn't want to compete in and also losing the 6 year long battle with toilet training. I think Patsy caused greater vaginal injury than intended that night and JonBenet was screaming. Patsy panicked.

by Anonymousreply 30January 15, 2022 7:05 AM

R30, preposterous.

by Anonymousreply 31January 15, 2022 3:23 PM

Yeah, r30, I don’t buy that at all. Wasn’t it also determined afterward there was no sexual assault?

by Anonymousreply 32January 15, 2022 3:26 PM

John Ramsey is a creep

by Anonymousreply 33January 15, 2022 3:30 PM

R30, that is completely ludicrous. Why is it so much easier for you to accept maternal penetration over paternal? You are going to the least likely scenario, instead of the most simple. At a bare minimum, we can all agree that there is no way to know for sure who caused those injuries. There is no way to prove anything, I’m just saying that statistically speaking, it’s much much more likely to be the father.

by Anonymousreply 34January 15, 2022 3:35 PM

[quote] It's an interesting wedding photo because John actually looks happy here. He looks in love. He's always described is cold. This is the first image I've seen where he isn't "cold."

What? Look where his left hand is. Would have been so easy to place that left hand on the small of her back or waist. No, you don't want to mess up her veil, but come on. That left hand is awkward in a wedding photo!

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by Anonymousreply 35January 15, 2022 4:25 PM

Re: photo of Patsy at grave.

Her hands are pretty high up. One hand is around her neck. I can see putting hand to heart, but that's almost a strangulation gesture.

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by Anonymousreply 36January 15, 2022 4:30 PM

I still say John’s marrying Patsy shows us other women wisely avoided him.

Patsy is “beneath him” looks wise and culturally. Patsy seems rather clueless (what kind of trailer dwelling hick puts her small child in beauty pageants?!) Patsy is overweight and has unfortunate facial features. She does not seem smart, witty, or professionally accomplished.

Mind you, I don’t normally think of people in these terms but you can bet John does.

by Anonymousreply 37January 15, 2022 4:33 PM

I am not arguing that Patsy is cuckoo, but in a scenario where Patsy is the perpetrator, John Ramsey would not hesitate to cut her lose and throw her under the bus. The only person John would protect is himself.

by Anonymousreply 38January 15, 2022 4:49 PM

Daddy did a boo boo.


by Anonymousreply 39January 15, 2022 4:51 PM

the bitch is DEAD! get over it already frau!

by Anonymousreply 40January 15, 2022 5:12 PM

It was Burke and the parents covered for him. The end.

by Anonymousreply 41January 15, 2022 5:37 PM

Christ I want John's throbbing cock deep inside me!

by Anonymousreply 42January 15, 2022 5:40 PM

Murders are not solved by deciding “who, in my subjective opinion, has the weirdest affect.” You have to look first at the physical evidence. Here, the evidence does not seem compatible with an accidental killing: JonBenet’s skull was bashed with a heavy object and she was garroted. There is also, as far as we know, no evidence that she was killed in any place but the basement. Her death was deliberate.

by Anonymousreply 43January 15, 2022 5:58 PM

I just can’t buy that either parent, in helping Burke, strangled their daughter to make sure she was dead. And the ransom note was weirdly complicated and unnecessary. None of this stuff adds up at all. But what do I know?

Agreed, r43. In this case, though, it’s hard to determine what the real evidence is just by going to the internet. The idea that JonBenet was sexually assaulted was dismissed, but I see it in a lot of posts as if it’s fact.

by Anonymousreply 44January 15, 2022 6:01 PM

R44, the autopsy report, which is easy to find and has been posted on one of these threads, refers to a tissue injury that suggests a possible prior sexual assault.

by Anonymousreply 45January 15, 2022 6:14 PM

That’s not entirely true, r45, hence my point. The autopsy report said only sexual assault could not be ruled out, and there was evidence of a prior vaginal injury but they couldn’t determine if it was due to sexual assault or something else.

by Anonymousreply 46January 15, 2022 6:26 PM

"The finger of JESUS compels you, Little Lady, to STOP wetting the bed from down here!"

-- Patsy in the throes of a religious trance brought on by Christmas party cocktails and Xanax

by Anonymousreply 47January 15, 2022 6:32 PM

[quote] There is also, as far as we know, no evidence that she was killed in any place but the basement. Her death was deliberate.

There was no evidence that she was killed in the basement. She was simply found there. And it was a contaminated crime scene.

If the garrotte killed her, then the death was deliberate. But if that was just part of later staging, that does not prove that. JonBenet may have been struck with an object upstairs, not intended to kill her. But it may have either killed her or brought her close enough to death that someone finished it off to protect either her from pain on them from blame.

by Anonymousreply 48January 15, 2022 6:36 PM

Sociopathic dad did it. Patsy was a patsy.

by Anonymousreply 49January 15, 2022 7:24 PM

For me the ransom note is clear evidence the murderer had to have been one of the Ramsays.

I refuse to believe that anyone else would have taken all that time to write a long rambling letter (all the while risking being caught) when all's that needed is two or three sentences. It's also clear the author intended it to be mysterious -- e.g. the "foreign faction" and signing the letter with random initials. Why would any abductor sign a ransom note?

I think it was done because they wanted to slow the Police down by adding loads of fake information, sending them in lots of different directions, which would give them chance to get rid of the body. They probably hoped the Police would assume the kidnapper had murdered JonBenet when they found the body.

by Anonymousreply 50January 15, 2022 7:35 PM

[quote]For me the ransom note is clear evidence the murderer had to have been one of the Ramsays.

The ransom note was written by Patsy. No question about it.

That doesn't mean she killed JonBenet, but it does mean, at a minimum, she was involved in the coverup.

by Anonymousreply 51January 15, 2022 7:41 PM

No no no and no r51. I believe it was John, but I cannot sit here and tell you that he unquestionably wrote the note because handwriting analysis is not a hard science. Most importantly, the writer of the note most certainly tried to disguise their handwriting style — again, you therefore cannot say it was definitely Patsy because the handwriting is not natural, it is disguised.

by Anonymousreply 52January 16, 2022 12:29 AM

I’m always curious why the killer(s) so strongly struck her on the head, strangled her and then did such an odd job on tying her hands together. They were so loosely tied, I wonder if it was done after she was dead or what. Staging? That detail always stuck out to me. That along with her underwear being changed. The same underwear that was already wrapped as a gift for Patsy’s niece.

by Anonymousreply 53January 16, 2022 12:40 AM

R53, the hands were loose because it was staged. There was evidence on the body (under black light) that it had been washed with a blue washcloth iirc. So they could tell that a human secretion (likely semen) had been scrubbed off the body, they could see smears glowing in the light, and then the washcloth left fibers on the body, bolstering this theory. The underwear was likely just staging too, or perhaps to remove more DNA.

by Anonymousreply 54January 16, 2022 1:02 AM

Patsy in this order: finger with long nail up the vagine, then head injury on tub or toilet, then garrot with painbrush handle, then long rambling note using her own pen and notepad.

by Anonymousreply 55January 16, 2022 9:43 AM

R55 I just can’t picture any mother putting her finger in her dead daughter’s vagine. Even if they are nuts. I know its not impossible, it just seems highly unlikely.

by Anonymousreply 56January 16, 2022 10:24 AM

R43 Agreed. And a lot of evidence found indicating an intruder was sat on or kept close to the bpd.

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by Anonymousreply 57January 16, 2022 10:45 AM

Imagine leaving a baseball bat, rope and flashlight at the murder scene and still getting away with it. The BPD just flat out refuses to test the rope for dna. When they found dna on Jonbenet’s underwear that did not belong to John, they stopped looking. They push the flashlight/Burke narrative but remain silent on the metal baseball bat found strewn in the yard. They wanted it to be the family as much as everyone on this thread does. I was convinced it was Patsy and John, hands down, until I got covid over the holidays and fell down a deep rabbit hole on this case. The ransom note and their kook personalities just couldn’t be explained away. But its pretty obvious an intruder did it at this point. And when it comes to light, members of the BPD need to be held accountable.

by Anonymousreply 58January 16, 2022 11:13 AM

[quote]That along with her underwear being changed. The same underwear that was already wrapped as a gift for Patsy’s niece.

That seems so damning to Patsy.

No wonder when the police got there, Patsy was in full makeup and wearing the same outfit she wore to the party the night before; she had had a busy night.

by Anonymousreply 59January 16, 2022 2:55 PM

People who still think JonBenet was killed by an "intruder" are idiots.

by Anonymousreply 60January 16, 2022 2:55 PM

It’s ludicrous r60

by Anonymousreply 61January 16, 2022 3:06 PM

There's nothing "breaking." There will be no arrests, let alone any new suspect. This case will remain legally open and unsolved unto eternity, or until we hear more from John or Burke. Eternity will happen first, haha.

by Anonymousreply 62January 16, 2022 3:09 PM

Exactly, r59. Completely out of character.

by Anonymousreply 63January 16, 2022 3:10 PM

R55 No

by Anonymousreply 64January 16, 2022 5:04 PM

R61 Expand on what you find so ludicrous about it.

by Anonymousreply 65January 16, 2022 5:51 PM

R60 Care to throw out reasons that back up your claim or just wanna hurl insults?

by Anonymousreply 66January 16, 2022 5:59 PM

Yeah, Patsy wore the same outfit 2 days in a row. Why? B/c she was up all night in that outfit, busy.

by Anonymousreply 67January 16, 2022 6:05 PM

R67 Patsy was sloppy. Look at her house. She was about appearances but sloppy behind the scenes. I can see her throwing on the same clothes to answer the door to the police.

by Anonymousreply 68January 16, 2022 6:14 PM

R68, benzodiazepines can do that

by Anonymousreply 69January 16, 2022 6:18 PM

[quote]Patsy was sloppy. Look at her house. She was about appearances but sloppy behind the scenes. I can see her throwing on the same clothes to answer the door to the police.

Patsy was sloppy behind closed doors. But she was very careful about appearances to the outside world. She would NEVER open the door wearing an evening party outfit in the morning. And she would never go to bed in full makeup.

She never went to bed that night. It takes time to kill someone, stage their death, and write two ransom notes.

by Anonymousreply 70January 16, 2022 6:24 PM

In defense of the Boulder PD, their duty is to protect the public at large, they figured whatever happened in the Ramsey home was committed by someone in the house.

I mean, how come we never hear about the neighbors or anyone in Boulder losing sleep they too might be victimized by those pesky foreign factions??

by Anonymousreply 71January 16, 2022 7:05 PM

R71 The same reason South Carolina law enforcement said there was no threat to the public after Alex Murdaugh's wife and son were gunned down.

by Anonymousreply 72January 16, 2022 7:48 PM

I think there were 2 intruders hired by or including someone with a grudge against John Ramsey. The main intruder intended to kidnap JonBenet. This is the one who wrote the bonkers ransom note. His buddy was the unpredictable heavy brought along due to having extensive B+E and kidnap experience. This is the homicidal pedo intruder who used a stun gun on JonBenetand took her to the basement while the first guy wrote the note in the kitchen. All happened in 5 mins. By the time the first guy gets to the basement the crazier guy already had JonBenet garotted and was enjoying fucking her with a thin paintbrush as he slowly twisted the garotte. Intruder #1 comes down and says hey man wtf are you doing? Since the garotte and sex assault were not part of the plan. JonBenet wakes up and screams so Intruder #2 twists the garotte to strangle and slams her head against the floor. Intruder #1 puts duct tape on her mouth before realizing she is now dead so kidnap must be abandoned. Intruder #2 already knows he has killed her by using too much force. They cover her up with the sheet intended to transport her off premises and then decide to just leave the body there. The intruders escape via basement window, the same way they entered.

by Anonymousreply 73January 16, 2022 9:10 PM

R73 yes.

by Anonymousreply 74January 16, 2022 9:24 PM

R70, or she caught hubs murdering their daughter and he threatened her with losing the life she had etc .

by Anonymousreply 75January 16, 2022 9:43 PM

Just a thought.

The kidnappers weren’t kidnappers at all. They killed JonBenet, and wrote the note, specifically to incriminate the Ramseys.

by Anonymousreply 76January 16, 2022 10:37 PM

I do think the ransom note was intentionally bonkers. And written in the house to add to confusion. The intruders had cased the place one or more times prior and new the floor plan and locations of items they intended to use. They knew Patsy took meds and was not likely to rouse in the night. Maybe John too. Also that master BR was on 3rd floor. I still think the murder was not planned or not planned to take place in the home.

by Anonymousreply 77January 16, 2022 11:14 PM

Definitely 1000 times OT but have any mediums tried to contact JonBenet to find out who really did it?

by Anonymousreply 78January 16, 2022 11:24 PM

R73 are you trolling or really that stupid?

by Anonymousreply 79January 16, 2022 11:37 PM

R79, not the OP, but no one has a plausible theory. Not even you.

by Anonymousreply 80January 16, 2022 11:39 PM

[quote]but no one has a plausible theory

Patsy wrote that silly ransom note.

Work from there, hun.

by Anonymousreply 81January 17, 2022 12:18 AM

Um no she didn’t, r81.

by Anonymousreply 82January 17, 2022 12:32 AM

[quote]"No she didn't!" "No one knows"

What a fucking idiot to type those two, completely inconsistent things.

by Anonymousreply 83January 17, 2022 12:39 AM

…and slowly this thread dies due to no new ideas.

by Anonymousreply 84January 17, 2022 1:06 AM

The housekeeper had a key and may have resented Patsy. If she wanted to frame PR, she could have deliberately written the suspicious ransom note that would point toward PR as the author. The housekeeper could have practiced emulating PR’s handwringing (hence the practice note found on the Ramsay’s writing tablet in the kitchen).

The housekeeper had an adult son who was looked into at least briefly.

by Anonymousreply 85January 17, 2022 1:22 AM

Poor wording choice for sure r83, my bad

by Anonymousreply 86January 17, 2022 1:25 AM

The Ghost of Patsy is posting all these "it was an intruder" "no, it was TWO intruders!" "no, it was the jealous housekeeper!" posts.

It was an inside job.

by Anonymousreply 87January 17, 2022 1:33 AM

R85, And where was your Aunt Fanny that Christmas Day, huh? HUH?!

The housekeeper. GMAB.

by Anonymousreply 88January 17, 2022 2:19 AM

If Patsy wrote the note, she knew about JonBenets death, and the body in the house. And she called 911 at 5:52 am anyway.

Nope. Patsy did not write the note.

by Anonymousreply 89January 17, 2022 4:05 AM

If JB's death was an accident and the Ramsys wanted to cover it up why do such heinous things to JB? That scenario doesn't ring true.

by Anonymousreply 90January 17, 2022 4:06 AM

Was the pineapple fresh or out of a can? Did they check for fingerprints on the can-opener and other articles of evidence? Windows? Doorknobs? The ransom note?

by Anonymousreply 91January 17, 2022 4:12 AM

I've often wondered if the killer might have been a jealous pageant mom who killed JB because she was winning so many crowns--crowns she wanted for her own daughter.

by Anonymousreply 92January 17, 2022 4:34 AM

Or maybe the killer was jealous because JonBenet had just been in the Christmas parade. Maybe the killer wanted that for her own daughter, herself, or someone who was close to her.

by Anonymousreply 93January 17, 2022 4:36 AM

Would like to know if John Ramsey ever have any anger issues or had ever committed other sexual or violent acts. Did he just suddenly snap that night? Some men and women cannot handle cracks to their facade of a home life.

Wonder how he interacted with his daughter when in public. Did others see signs of inappropriate behavior?

Imagine he was furious at his wife's mental and physical decline as well as her long refusal to have sex with him.

by Anonymousreply 94January 17, 2022 10:16 AM

[quote]If JB's death was an accident and the Ramsys wanted to cover it up why do such heinous things to JB?

Yup. I think for these last 25 years, I was pretty sure the son was somehow involved. I never really seriously entertained the dad. Maybe I didn't want to believe it? But, the whole garrote, etc is just so SPECIFIC and WEIRD (it really gives Occam's Razor a run for its money). It really does point to something more unfathomable and insidious.

Tragic that justice will never be served, and a guilty, rich, privileged man went free. Also, it would be nice to breathe a collective sigh of relief and those of us who never believed it was an intruder could be vindicated.

by Anonymousreply 95January 17, 2022 10:46 AM


by Anonymousreply 96January 17, 2022 11:00 AM

There’s some fucking kooks who take this case to a whole other level of crazy.

One theory has the criminals waltzing out after Patsy called the police. They were listening on the phone in the basement and knew they had to make a hasty getaway

They snuck upstairs, 3 of them, mind you, an escaped through the butler’s pantry.

by Anonymousreply 97January 17, 2022 11:35 AM

[quote]If Patsy wrote the note, she knew about JonBenets death, and the body in the house.


by Anonymousreply 98January 17, 2022 2:12 PM

It was Helen Lawson in the basement with her Oscar.

by Anonymousreply 99January 17, 2022 2:24 PM

The spirit of Patsy Ramsey lives on here at Datalounge.

by Anonymousreply 100January 17, 2022 2:30 PM

I heard Patsy liked to give JonBenet baths like Sudie Bond got in Silkwood.

by Anonymousreply 101January 17, 2022 2:35 PM

I’m listening to the linked podcast (thank you for the recommendation).

Why did the parents NOT wake up Burke when they saw the ransom note and learned JB was missing. I’d think it would be intuitive to wake up anyone in the house to find out if they’d heard or seen anything. Additionally, I’d think most parents would want remaining children to be safe and out of a crime scene environment. When Burke did awake, according to the podcast, he wasn’t questioned.

John was told to search the house for anything of JB”s that might be missing or out of place. He immediately heads to the basement that is described as being used as an overflowing storage space. Why wouldn’t he have gone upstairs back to JB’s room, bathroom, Burke’s room, etc.

Again, I’m just 15 minutes into the first episode so perhaps these questions will be/have been answered.

by Anonymousreply 102January 17, 2022 2:42 PM

burke is so handsome and athletic and smart

by Anonymousreply 103January 17, 2022 2:44 PM

^ I haven’t heard that pod yet, but John was actually specifically asked to search the house “top to bottom” starting on top floor.

by Anonymousreply 104January 17, 2022 2:45 PM

[R104], was there ever an explanation as to why he started the search in the basement?

by Anonymousreply 105January 17, 2022 3:06 PM

Why was John asked to search the house? Isn't that the police's job?

Why ask a possible suspect to do it?

by Anonymousreply 106January 17, 2022 3:09 PM

[quote]Why did the parents NOT wake up Burke when they saw the ransom note and learned JB was missing.

Burke was awake. When Patsy made the 911 call (the second one, when she didn't hang up) before the operator answers, Patsy can be heard spitting the words, "We're not talking to you!"

by Anonymousreply 107January 17, 2022 3:11 PM

I remember that being looked into, [R107], but according to police reports, Burke was asleep in his room when the police arrived.

by Anonymousreply 108January 17, 2022 3:22 PM

She's fucking dead. Get over it already!

by Anonymousreply 109January 17, 2022 3:34 PM

There is an incredible podcast posted upthread. I can tell most of you didn’t listen to it.

Patsy did it.

by Anonymousreply 110January 17, 2022 3:39 PM

R105, no, there is no explanation. Detective Ardnt told him “top to bottom” and he simply ran into the basement, then you know the rest of the story. She is the source of that info. She said she could see the tension rising, they anticipation and anxiety was growing, so she decided to tell John to search again just to keep him busy.

by Anonymousreply 111January 17, 2022 3:55 PM

R66, Not r60 here. Read the first thread; plenty of refutation is provided.

"Intruder" theorists like to posit some mysterious method of entry, in order to lie in wait. Did the person have a key? Known possessors other than the parents apparently weren't and aren't suspects.

The egress is, of course, supposed to be the window in the hard to find basement room to which John Ramsey basically had to direct his friend in order to "find" JonBenet. Exit onto the snow or wet ground without leaving footprints?

"Intruder" theorists often like to posit murder, not kidnapping for ransom, as the true motive.

But they never give a reason for why the intruder-murderer would risk getting caught by lingering for what must have been a considerable time, even accepting that he wrote the "ransom note" (and rough draft) while lying in the aforementioned wait.

He wrote well, too, for "Intruder" theorists like to argue that somehow he was able to previously practice in order to decently approximate Patsy's handwriting.

Funny though; the argument never really explains how this intruder-murderer also knew Patsy's expressions, one example's being how in letters she would write "And hence," just as was in the "ransom note" (for the baffled, "and" does not commonly precede "hence").

Apparently not caring that, in committing a crime, time is usually of the essence, he fiddle-faddled with garrotte and paint brush and whatever after bashing JB's head in; placed the note on a back staircase; carried the body to the basement (not necessarily in that order).

Or did this intruder-murderer somehow take the still-living JB to the basement, hoping she wouldn't wake up and scream, nor that her parents or brother would catch him in the act of carriage? What if a parent found the "ransom note" before the intruder had time to finish up with JB and climb out the basement window [Query: Have you ever noticed that most basement windows are different from other house windows in being smaller and less easily opened?]?

Boy, this guy got all the breaks!

Never spotted on Christmas Day, either arriving or leaving, in the neighborhood or in the house; never heard in the house by two adults and a young boy, while moving around, from bedroom to back staircase, floor to basement, window to yard; never left any identifiable trace evidence; never caught and arrested!

But let's say the intruder really did "just" want to kidnap JB for the $180,000 ransom that somehow he had learned (and perforce quite recently, so the plot was hurriedly conceived) was equal to John's Christmas bonus---or else picked the amount at random (one then must wonder why $200,000 seemed a tad too much).

"Intruder" theorists cannot logically answer why the intruder-kidnapper not only didn't bring his own prepared ransom note to the scene, but also took the time at the scene to compose a lengthy one.

Nor can they explain logically why the intruder-kidnapper didn't call about the ransom drop-off. Unless he knew the body of JB had been found. But how could he know that, if he were the escaped intruder-kidnapper-oops-murderer?

About that "oops": If the original intent was money via kidnapping, what the heck transpired that resulted in JB's death?! I mean, that is one inept kidnapper! We know she didn't scream for the intruder-kidnapper to whack her into silence---because neither Patsy nor John nor Burke heard her---at least, that must be the "Intruder" theorist's argument.

So how did a simple "Grab 'n' Go" go so awry? How do the "Intruder" theorists explain it?

In any case, this intruder-kidnapper-now-murderer stays cool as the proverbial cucumber. Instead of taking the living JB to wherever and however he planned, he stages an elaborate grotesquerie.

And only then, having miraculously alerted no other family member, does our intruder-murderer make his escape.

I wonder where he parked.

by Anonymousreply 112January 17, 2022 6:42 PM

That podcast is reprehensible, connecting Patsy to Mommie Dearest, etc. There is NO evidence that Patsy killed JonBenet.

by Anonymousreply 113January 17, 2022 7:01 PM

No need for snark. The intruder theory is one of many to be explored/discussed.

Lou Smit felt the murderer could have well been an intruder for the following reasons:

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by Anonymousreply 114January 17, 2022 7:03 PM

Most people dismissing the intruder theory have zero knowledge of the evidence pointing to one.

by Anonymousreply 115January 17, 2022 7:55 PM

Burke’s prints were found on the bowl of pineapple. IIRC so we’re JB’s.

I believe Burke also said Patsy ran into his room screaming that morning but he stayed in bed.

It makes no sense the intruder would sit in the kitchen to write that note. There’s also no proof a stun gun was used on her.

by Anonymousreply 116January 17, 2022 8:24 PM

R115 There's so much evidence against it, though.

by Anonymousreply 117January 17, 2022 8:38 PM

Not only is there no proof that a stun gun was used, the boot print was not evidence of an intruder either.

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by Anonymousreply 118January 17, 2022 8:52 PM

Hmmm it seems to me the key is the dna found under Jonbenet’s fingernails. It’s likely they were there from a struggle.

by Anonymousreply 119January 17, 2022 9:01 PM

Someone who overkills a child like this using 2 different methods is not a one-time offender. Yet none of the Ramseys has any known incidents of child molestation, abuse, torture, or killing. I cannot connect the dots to any family members working alone or collectively. Nope.

by Anonymousreply 120January 17, 2022 9:07 PM

[quote]Why was John asked to search the house? Isn't that the police's job?

He was bothering the police so they sent him to get him out of their way.

by Anonymousreply 121January 17, 2022 9:35 PM

Well, R120, it’s not as if Lizzie Borden had ever killed before. And she was perfectly harmless afterwards, too. Many intra-family killings are both gruesome and completely situational—it’s just that one person that the killer wants out of the way.

by Anonymousreply 122January 17, 2022 9:37 PM

Lizzie Borden — also a cold case.

by Anonymousreply 123January 17, 2022 9:40 PM

R112, impressive post.

R120, it is true that you cannot connect the dots to family with a smoking gun….but you can connect the dots circumstantially, in fact, the circumstantial evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

Every single intruder tidbit came from Lou Smit, most infamously, the stun gun theory. The marks later were matched to the metal train tracks all over he floor of the basement. There is zero evidence of a stun gun, but hundreds of train tracks.

R115, it seems like all the posters here who don’t believe an intruder did it are highly knowledgeable, at least to my eyes, and that’s because I know the evidence and facts of this case. There is not a single respected member of LEO who think “the Ramsey’s” were not involved, only a few freaks ever supported the intruder theory, plus the Ramsey’s lolol.

by Anonymousreply 124January 18, 2022 3:34 AM

What about the alleged copy of Mindhunter and the Danish book whose title translates to The Grand Design", and the dictionary in the den allegedly open to the word "incest". I mean, you wanna talk abt staging...but not by the Ramseys. But who even knows what evidence was actually there anymore? It's a huge clusterfuck. But mommies enraged by bedwetting and pedo daddies don't garotte their child. Garotte is serial killer sexual sadism 101.

by Anonymousreply 125January 18, 2022 5:01 AM

Are the Whites still living? I’d love to know their theory. They are wise to keep a low profile, but I’d love to read an in depth interview with them.

by Anonymousreply 126January 18, 2022 9:13 AM

R114 and R115, Let's hear some "Intruder Theory" logic. Please. I beg you.

You can start by pointing out the flaws in my post at r112.

by Anonymousreply 127January 18, 2022 9:27 AM

R125, Your entire first sentence is fiction.

The only book "evidence" is that the "ransom note's" closing of "SBTC" was linked to Patsy's Bible and "Saved By The Cross" (i.e., belief in Jesus absolved one's sins).

But now you are suggesting that the intruder-murderer took even MORE time risking getting caught by the rest of the family than I mentioned in r112.

Sure, Jan.

by Anonymousreply 128January 18, 2022 9:32 AM

But what about the 19 cigarette butts found outside the home?!?!?

by Anonymousreply 129January 18, 2022 3:04 PM

By a private eye hired by John Ramsey, r129? Even he says the butts were found "in an alley" by the Ramsey house. Some evidence they are.

Anyway, everybody knows the killers were hippies chanting, "Kill the pigs! Acid is groovy!" The main suspect had long hair and wore a floppy hat. Get on it!

by Anonymousreply 130January 18, 2022 6:25 PM

Intruder Did It troll here. I am listening to the podcast suggested above. I just finished episode 5 where they do an in-depth dive into Patsy’s personality. I may be swaying back toward the Patsy Did It stance I had a few weeks ago before diving into the case. Extremely revealing episode.

I had a boss like Patsy. This woman was in her mid fifties and came from a comfortable upbringing. Talked calculatingly with a soft, breathy voice. Was always maintaining a facade. Turned out she used to be a public school teacher who was fired for being abusive toward the kids. I think she was a severe, violent BPD. She had thin razor scars up her forearms and I heard of her once driving her car at 90 mph with a death wish during a bad episode. But boy, did she work to maintain that veneer. Thought of her right away hearing that particular episode.

Also, part of my mother’s family is from the south, particularly Tennessee and West Virginia. Let me tell you something; those deep south crazy genes are a very real thing. These people were extremely abusive both physically and sexually, but all went to church, showed up to pot-lucks in their Sunday’s best, sung with the choir. But they would turn on a dime, complete Jeckyll and Hydes. Patsy seems to be one of those people.

by Anonymousreply 131January 18, 2022 7:10 PM

The cigarette butts were consistent with the butts found close to the home of the girl who was assaulted by an intruder who came in through her window while she was asleep and sexually assaulted her with his mouth (the dna found on JBs pants was consistent with saliva) while also threatening to bash her head in if she made any noise. This happened within proximity to the Ramsay’s house a few months after the JB situation.

by Anonymousreply 132January 18, 2022 7:18 PM

R127 I posted a link above thread discussing intruder logic.

by Anonymousreply 133January 18, 2022 7:21 PM

R126 I think they remain suspicious of the Ramsays.

by Anonymousreply 134January 18, 2022 7:41 PM

R37 Patsy won Miss West Virginia, dumb ass. Not beneath him looks wise.

by Anonymousreply 135January 18, 2022 7:44 PM

Great podcast but a little too one sided against Patsy. Most people agree it was either Patsy killed her and Jon covered it up, or the other way around. I am in the later camp.

by Anonymousreply 136January 18, 2022 8:01 PM

Why don’t you hoes go back to the basics and watch the interview with the responding officer. The interview will throw out a ton of the silly ideas and bring you back to where it happened, when, how, what it really looked like.

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by Anonymousreply 137January 18, 2022 8:01 PM

If Patsy did it, no way John wasn’t involved too. But I question why he just didn’t throw her under the bus… I think she might have been a loon, but he is a cutthroat survivor.

by Anonymousreply 138January 18, 2022 8:20 PM

I don’t give a good goddamn if Patsy won Miss Weat Virginia, r135.

If anything, that proves my point that Patsy is rather… porcine.

by Anonymousreply 139January 18, 2022 8:28 PM

West Virginia, obviously

by Anonymousreply 140January 18, 2022 8:28 PM

R139, R140 Yes, we see that she’s blowsy, tacky, and fat but to men, if a woman wins Miss whatever state, then they’re usually hotties. Wtf.

by Anonymousreply 141January 18, 2022 8:33 PM

[R132], why have I never heard about the cigarette butts or the second attack? You’d think it would be discussed incessantly to support the Ramsey’s defense. Link to coverage of this evidence and news stories?

by Anonymousreply 142January 18, 2022 8:39 PM

R138 Because he figured he could beat it, and he was right. If it came out that Patsy killed her, his name would have still be tarnished. He would have probably been seen or even charged as an accessory. If be called 911 right away, then he could have saved himself. But instead he concocted the ransom plan which probably made sense in the heat of the moment.

After seeing that Patsy killed her (if thats what happened), he told her to write a ransom note while he hid the body. After the media blitz, when it became clear that he and his wife were under suspicion, he could have tried to turn her in, but by that time, he was too far in. He had to keep going, throw everyone off his scent, and confuse the public. It took 20 years, but it more or less worked.

by Anonymousreply 143January 18, 2022 8:50 PM

When the murder occurred, Patsy was undergoing treatment for her cancer, which treatment possibly included weight-affecting medications.

She traveled cross-country for these treatments; John never accompanied her. This point, of lack of affection, is made in "A Mother Gone Bad."

by Anonymousreply 144January 18, 2022 11:12 PM

Okay, here's the verbatim deposition of John Ramsey.

It is mostly, if not wholly, concerning the "ransom note."

"Q"= Interrogator Mr. Hoffman.

"A" and "Witness" = John Ramsey.

"Mr. Wood" = Lin Wood, Attorney for Mr. Ramsey. [Note: The name "Lin Wood" might sound familiar: He is currently a QAnon lawyer for DJT, TFG.]

The deposition is worth reading in toto, but I'll give you a high point, as it were:

Two court-accepted handwriting experts, Larry Ziegler and Gideon Epstein, studied both the "ransom note" as well as the official handwriting exemplars given to the police by John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey.

**Their submitted report stated, verbatim, "[W]ithout doubt Patsy Ramsey is the ransom note writer."**

Mr. Hoffman in closing points out that, for all their money spent on their own experts and investigators, and for all their denials of authorship, the Ramseys never produced any contrary handwriting report "that clears Mrs. Ramsey."

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by Anonymousreply 145January 18, 2022 11:26 PM

The broken window in the basement had untouched dust/debris on the outside that made it crystal clear that no one entered that way. It was clearly staged to make it seem like an intruder COULD have entered the basement by someone who wasn’t thinking about that part of the evidence.

Also, WTF with the other brother’s semen in the briefcase in the same room? This family is fucked up and I wouldn’t put anything past them.

R125 Is it true that the dictionary was opened to the word “incest?” There are other words on that dictionary page unless it was circled specifically—if not, creepy coincidence but not necessarily a piece of evidence.

by Anonymousreply 146January 18, 2022 11:49 PM

R146, I believe that the semen was on a blanket that was in the briefcase, i.e., it was an old jerk-off towel that had never been cleaned off.

by Anonymousreply 147January 19, 2022 12:20 AM

The John Ramsey deposition above was in a CIVIL matter, years after JB's death. Nothing there IMO. No irregularities by Ramsey. If you've ever been deposed you know lawyers are scum. I've been deposed twice.

by Anonymousreply 148January 19, 2022 1:21 AM

You can't convict Patsy because of a bitchy personality. It's not evidence of anything.

by Anonymousreply 149January 19, 2022 7:57 PM

I didn't know any details of the case beyond watching 48 hr and the Ramsey interviews years ago. This is the site where I read up on the evidence.

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by Anonymousreply 150January 20, 2022 12:55 AM

R143 wins the thread. That’s it!

by Anonymousreply 151January 20, 2022 1:16 AM

I hope that you are being sarcastic, R151, because what R143 proposes does not make sense. “My dying, drug addled wife, who I hate, killed my daughter. What should I do—stage an elaborate coverup that will irrevocably bind us together and give her enormous power over me, or throw her to the wolves, knowing that she might not even live long enough to be tried? Decisions, decisions . . .”

by Anonymousreply 152January 20, 2022 1:31 AM

I see your point, r152--that's the thing that keeps me from thinking Patsy was involved. She was such a loose cannon, why even tie yourself to her? It's way too risky, something I think John Ramsey was smart enough to comprehend. It just doesn't make sense.

I think he did it alone, btw. Patsy did live another 10 years after her daughter died.

by Anonymousreply 153January 20, 2022 1:37 AM

r50 Is a great example of why science, evidence, and actual police/FBI procedure is necessary. "I refuse to believe...." and "I think" are examples of how biased regular people can get when examining facts in a case. So hard for people to look past their own worldview, even those who really enjoy these types of unsolved cases and the new media that has popped up around them.

by Anonymousreply 154January 20, 2022 2:13 AM

^^ This. Plus the general public distorts and omits facts over time. Like on this thread.

by Anonymousreply 155January 20, 2022 2:40 AM

R150 I didn’t see statements that the Ramseys made for comparison, but maybe I didn’t look in the right section.

As someone who observes behavior, when people say things that don’t make sense (including inconsistent story, but also saying strange things that aren’t fitting for the situation), or have incongruent nonverbals, i immediately suspect lying at the very least. I’ve watched multiple videos of the parents and Burke and the phrasing they use is off as well as the body language. I’d have to go back and watch the interview with the parents, but I thought i recalled both of them saying things that seemed more telling than intended that hinted that they knew who did it, in addition to phrasing things very strangely and having nonverbal “tells” that conflicted with what they were saying.

by Anonymousreply 156January 20, 2022 3:09 AM

Please stop writing that no foot prints were found in the snow outside the basement window. There was no snow that Xmas. Plus Colorado is very dry. There was no rain either.

The boot print downstairs was NOT matched to Burke's boot.

Male DNA was found on and in JB's pajamas. It doesn't match John or Burke.

^^^ The above would suggest an intruder.

However the ransom note is batshit and troubling (though we should remember a Federal Court cleared Patsy of writing it) Here's a good analysis of the note.

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by Anonymousreply 157January 20, 2022 4:19 AM

Plus now we have experts taking conflicting views re the DNA found on JB.

So in the final analysis IMO at least it's impossible to take a hard position either way on this cluster fuck of a case that was mishandled from the beginning.

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by Anonymousreply 158January 20, 2022 4:59 AM

The Ramseys didn’t talk to police until 40 days AFTER the case. The DA actually have them and family lawyers case evidence before any of that. The few things they did tell the police (JonBenet being told a bed time story, ect) were later recanted by the Ramseys when they saw how that made them look.

The Ramseys did it. I hope Burke one day spills the beans. Maybe he is waiting for John to die.

by Anonymousreply 159January 20, 2022 7:52 AM

[quote]Male DNA was found on and in JB's pajamas. It doesn't match John or Burke.

[quote]^^^ The above would suggest an intruder.

Or a Chinese factory worker.

by Anonymousreply 160January 20, 2022 8:17 AM

From the moment the police arrived, the Ramseys never acted like people who actually thought there was a psychotic killer on the loose in their community. They were defensive and uncooperative with the police from day 1. What does that tell you.

by Anonymousreply 161January 20, 2022 9:38 AM

Didn’t the police say the Ramseys never really followed up to ask about progress in the case? If someone broke into my home and killed my child, I think I’d want some answers.

by Anonymousreply 162January 20, 2022 1:14 PM

I just don't believe Patsy could kill that little girl that way, and then calmly write that note. I don't believe it. But John...? I can believe he did it.

by Anonymousreply 163January 20, 2022 3:08 PM

The Police should have separated the Ramseys to question them the moment they arrived at the house. This is common police procedure

The Police should have kept out the multiple friends who came to the Ramsey house to aid the Ramseys. They searched all over the house. Contaminated the place. .

The Boulder Police were pitiful.

by Anonymousreply 164January 20, 2022 3:56 PM

^Police Commander, John Ellet ordered the Ramseys to be treated as victims, not suspects

by Anonymousreply 165January 20, 2022 6:05 PM


by Anonymousreply 166January 20, 2022 6:06 PM

R163 Well, she didn’t really “calmly” write the note. She wrote a rough draft, which she forgot to then hide. And the letter is rambling and nonsensical.

And for gods sake people! Of course they did it! Patsy answered the door in her outfit from the night before. JonBenet was found wearing her clothes from the party, with her pajamas on the bed. She NEVER went to sleep that night.

They got home. Ate Pineapple. Then Patsy hit her in a fit of rage and John cleaned up the mess.

by Anonymousreply 167January 20, 2022 6:19 PM

It bugs me that people accept Andrea Yates was in a psychotic-break-fugue and yet cannot accept that Patsy was also.

Patsy’s fervent religious beliefs, debilitating ovarian cancer, and drama/journalism university studies influenced her so much!

Of course she did it. The question remains was it preplanned or not?

Saved By The Cross! Victory!

by Anonymousreply 168January 20, 2022 7:14 PM

R168, Patsy was not in a fugue state, these two mothers could not be more different, nor could these situations be more different.

by Anonymousreply 169January 20, 2022 7:19 PM

R168, Yates had a documented history of serious mental illness, and had tried to commit suicide at least three times before the murders.

by Anonymousreply 170January 20, 2022 7:31 PM

R167 full of factual errors

by Anonymousreply 171January 20, 2022 8:39 PM


by Anonymousreply 172January 20, 2022 8:51 PM

R172 No it isn’t. R167 is correct.

by Anonymousreply 173January 20, 2022 10:21 PM

Absolutely, r173.

The one basic problem, because I don't feel like repeating anything more detailed like I wrote earlier, with the murderer's being someone OTHER than the Ramseys, resides in HOW MUCH WAS DONE!

Pineapple. Rough draft (Patsy's tablet). Lengthy note (Patsy's tablet). Note to back staircase. Head-bashing. Paint-brush (Patsy's brush) garrote. Heart drawing on JB's palm. JB to basement. Sexual assault. Window climb.

As silent as Marcel Marceau.

by Anonymousreply 174January 20, 2022 11:03 PM

R17, right you are. I was 4 when my sister died tragically. The noises both my parents made has never left me in 40 years.

by Anonymousreply 175January 20, 2022 11:06 PM

r174 Add the flashlight that was wiped clean of fingerprints.

by Anonymousreply 176January 20, 2022 11:24 PM

And the batteries...which means it HAD to have been someone in the household. Just think about it...

by Anonymousreply 177January 20, 2022 11:37 PM

R17 and r175, You are aware of cases where mothers have murdered their own children, are you not? Many cases made major headlines, some even TV movies.

Nobody is denying the terrible grief of the innocent. Moreover, even the guilty can be horrified in realizing what they've done.

One does need to enter the real world.

by Anonymousreply 178January 21, 2022 5:17 AM

So, r132?

Please try to address the points in r112. TIA.

by Anonymousreply 179January 23, 2022 8:03 PM

R178 back: Indeed, a most famous example of horrified murderers/accomplices currently stars Denzel and Frances.

by Anonymousreply 180January 23, 2022 8:05 PM

Barbra Streisand (with a little makeup) IS JonBenet!

by Anonymousreply 181January 23, 2022 10:01 PM

Poor Patsy. I think the ultimate tragedy is if she did do it, since she loved this child more than anything. She must have been out of her mind in that brief instant and then panicked, trying to create evidence that distanced her from the act to connect it to strangers. She then disassociated so she believed her own lies.

by Anonymousreply 182January 24, 2022 12:17 AM

R182, or the murder could have been committed by Patsy’s doppelgänger from parallel universe. That would make the same amount of sense.

by Anonymousreply 183January 24, 2022 12:49 AM

JonBenet is fine in Rio drinking caipirinhas!

She sends her love!

by Anonymousreply 184January 24, 2022 10:32 PM

R157, Clearly an egregious case of judicial over-reaching. Note the words "For the first time ever...."

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by Anonymousreply 185July 24, 2022 2:31 AM

"An" intruder.

So why the Ramsay's ransom note, written laboriously while their daughter supposedly was missing. She could have been really kidnapped, according to their ploy, and yet they did this?


John told Patsy she was dead and they needed to protect Burke because it was an accident. Then you can hear Burke innocently asking what is going on while they're on the 911 call and they shut him up.

by Anonymousreply 186July 24, 2022 1:10 PM

How strange then that the Ramsey's immediately allowed Burke to go stay with the neighbors that morning. That sure was a huge chance they took on a upset little 9 year that he wouldn't say something to the neighbors about his murderous evening. Accidental slip of the tongue, etc. Yep, that was a very big chance they took. Ridiculous.

by Anonymousreply 187July 24, 2022 3:07 PM

I hope the BPD releases the evidence for DNA testing.

How will everyone react if it turns out it was an intruder who went on to commit many more horrific crimes against children?

Maybe that's why BPD has hung on to that evidence. They've got a strong suspicion, the guy is in jail for life and can't cause any more harm. But if the truth comes out then the lawsuits will be flying in.

by Anonymousreply 188July 28, 2022 3:09 AM

Are you kidding R188? They've been treated like fucking buffoons (because they are) for 30 years. You think they would quietly let some damning shit go when the whole reason they're reviled is for not arresting the Ramseys? Come on!

by Anonymousreply 189July 28, 2022 3:38 PM

R600 in the other thread is a fucking moron. "I don't see how people think the parents could've taken the time to write the letter." Hey, RETARD! So you think it's MORE likely that an intruder stumbled his way around the house, finding a pad, and a pen, and putting them both back where they belonged when he was finished writing the note?

You are special needs.

by Anonymousreply 190August 2, 2022 4:12 AM

I have always thought it was an intruder. Maybe 2.

by Anonymousreply 191August 2, 2022 4:21 AM

Has anyone watched this movie, "Perfect Murder Perfect Town"?

It’s hard not to see that the Ramseys were complicit in a coverup of JBR’s death if these facts are true.

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by Anonymousreply 192August 7, 2022 6:09 AM

DNA can't rule people out, only people in.

A crime is bigger than "who exactly left this DNA here".

Other participants may not have left DNA that was found nor sampled. Other participants may have engaged in certain aspects of the crime and not others.

Just because it may not be his DNA does not mean the father is "cleared". It would take an entire explanation of all crime details and very likely a confession or two to do that.

by Anonymousreply 193August 7, 2022 6:20 AM

You're special, r191.

by Anonymousreply 194August 8, 2022 4:59 PM
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