Is is safe to say that we all agree that Patty Ramsay killed Jon Benet?

It was her creepy brother.

The brother did it you freaking dumbass

The family killed her. They all covered it up and kept the secret, they are all responsible.

It was a Foreign Faction.

"Patty" Ramsay? Seriously, OP?

Pats if your nasty!

No, OP, there is still a lot of differing opinions as to whether it was Patsy, John or the brother.

It was obviously one of them and the other two knew it and helped cover it up all these years.

The brother did it and the parents covered for him.

Burke was far too young and weak to have killed her. People forget the kid was 8. It is possible he killed her by “accident” such as accidently hitting her to hard. But if that was the case, and the Ramsey’s then tried to cover it up, that begs the question why? They are rich, smart, connected. The most likely thing they would do is rush her to the hospital, pretend she fell down the steps, and make it all fo away. Even if Patsy did it on accident then the same situation would have happened.

And why do people think it is Burke or Patsy but never John?

Anyone named Patty tends to be a tad crazy.

The autopsy showed JonBenet was being molested. I think Patsy walked in on John Ramsey molesting her and went to attack him, but accidentally killed JonBenet. Then they both covered it up because they were both going to prison if they didn't.

That one show said that Burke hit her with a bat to the head

It was John. No doubt.

Patsy wrote the note, that's about the only thing we know about who did what that night.

The female cop on the scene first thinks it was John, a lot of people think it was Patsy, even more think it was Burke and both parents covered for him.

There are factions of people all equally convinced of Patsy guilt, of Burke's guilt, and of John's guilt. All offer convincing arguments. And then there are people who are equally convinced it was an intruder.

I have no idea, but I firmly believe that Patsy wrote the ransom note. For me, that eliminates the notion of an intruder. Beyond that, I really have no idea.

It was the guy next door who killed himself like two months later

Burke hated his little sister and had a history of hitting her with blunt objects. The last time he hit her in the head, she died.

His parents' pathetic attempts to make it look like a kidnapping with that ridiculous "foreign faction" ransom letter and staged strangulation (the cops found the "strangled" body in the basement before John had a chance to dump her somewhere) only served to cast suspicion on themselves for the rest of their lives.

People wondering "why didn't they just call 911 and tell police Burke didn't mean it?", don't understand egos like the Ramseys, for whom appearances are EVERYTHING. They would be totally humiliated that one of their spawn murdered the other one. They also may have panicked that Burke would wind up in the criminal justice system or institutionalized. Not a good look.

The psychology of these people is evident in the way they tarted up that little girl for those sick child beauty pageants, and in the way the ransom letter served a dual-purpose by highlighting their wealth and status in their community.

It was someone in the house. No intruder, whether a kidnapper or a killer, would sit in someone else's house and write, first, a draft of a a long, discursive ransom note, and then the final version of the note. Only someone who knew that they had all the time in the world until the police were called would do that.

Brother struck the killing blow, but the family all covered it up.

In 1999, Joyce Carol Oates, who certainly knows about crazy, wrote a lengthy essay about the murder for the New York Review of Books. The whole thing appears to be accessible only if you have a subscription, but, FWIW, she goes with the majority view of the murder: Burke probably did it and his parents staged the cover-up, but the person who was ultimately responsible was Patsy. Her narcissistic obsessiveness and favoritism set the stage for the crime.

The brother pushed the highchair over and she smashed her head on the floor.

Or chair or whatever.

The cellar window that the "intruder" allegedly broke to gain access to the house was broken from the INSIDE. If you've ever watched Forensic Files, that's when the cops stop with the bullshit and basically drag the homeowners down to the station to sweat a confession out of them. Pity that didn't happen with the Ramseys

[quote](the cops found the "strangled" body in the basement before John had a chance to dump her somewhere)

I wonder if he was planning to do that, if he'd had more time.

It was the brother and the parents covered it up because they didn't want to lose both children.

[quote]No intruder, whether a kidnapper or a killer, would sit in someone else's house and write, first, a draft of a a long, discursive ransom note, and then the final version of the note.

Not only that, but the pad of paper and the pen used to write the ransom note were each returned to their separate drawers in the kitchen after the not was finished.

I mean, come on!

No. Not Patsy.

Team Burke, as always. And at his age, he's not really responsible. I don't know what kind of person he is now - maybe a psychopath all along - but he was below the age of responsibility. It's like a toddler taking a gun out of a purse and shooting someone. OK, a bit worse than that, but not much. The brain isn't very far along at 9 - and that family was fucked up as all get out. The mom and those inane pageants anyway, and mom was a pageant queen (i.e. narcissist) herself. With a terminal kind of cancer to boot. Cray cray cray.

So yeah, I say Burke did it - but so what?

It was Patti LuPone, Rose.

It is truly a mystery we shall never know.

The only thing we will ever know for certain is whoever wrote that ransom note had impeccable penmanship.

A Charley Horse got her. No doubt in my mind.

As I told dear JonBenet that sad night, "The Lord never gives you anything you can't handle. Well, except, [tug] perhaps [tug] this [tug] one [tug] time."

Mutilating one's daughter's body to cover up a terrible accident (probably) by one's son makes it a family affair. Plus not all the damage to the body was post mortem and involved with the fatal injury. Does it seem likely the brother did ALL that long-term sexual and abuse damage?

And it was John who carried the body upstairs from the basement, wasn't it?

Don't look at me.

[quote]"Patty" Ramsay? Seriously, OP?

OPs routinely post from alternate universes, about famous women like Diris Day and Kampala Harris.

Listen sister, I didn't go to the trouble of strangling that pint-size harlot to have my name misspelled, understand?

JonBenet was trying to retrieve the new Barbie Dream House, which she received as a Christmas gift, from a high shelf. The large toy fell onto her head, causing blunt force trauma. Burke heard the loud noise from another room and rushed to see what was the matter. Upon seeing his sister in this unfortunate state, he called to his parents for help and both John and Patsy quickly bolted up the stairs. As it became clear that JonBenet's death was inevitable, the family agreed that she should pass on her favorite day of the year, Christmas.

The Ramseys had no choice but to stage a murder. It was to spare JonBenet the embarrassment of her accident.

Sorry I meant PATSY! It's seems Burt was in fact too young. Before I posted the question, I found out that the note had the French word 'attache' and thought she had to have written it because who in the hell refers to a suitcase as an attach'e? Patsy Ramsay would. What possibly could motivate the whole entire family to do that?

Sometimes, a mother has to cull.

Burt? Burt? Leave at once.

Patty, Burt and Joe Ramsey covered up Joan Bennet's murder. Case closed!

As my mother used to say, “The happiness of one sassy little girl is nothing compared to the sanctity of the bloodline.”

Didn't he go on Dr. Phil last year? Did anyone watch it and did he seem off his head?

He certainly looked all kinds of fucked up and medicated, but I only saw a promo.

Totally her brother.

BURKE! Gawd ! I'm sorry! I never paid close attention to this story until recently.

R31, please retire that fucking pic...or off yourself.

Burt Reynolds killed John Belushi and Patty Regan covered it up!

[Quote]It was the guy next door who killed himself like two months later

I'm always interested in people who think that ransom note was real. ...really? How?

Small foreign factions are everywhere, r48.

It was a suicide. The papers are filled with young girls killing themselves.

R48 I never heard about that. Who was it?

Michael Helgoth who died in an apparent suicide shortly after JonBenet's death.

There were 38 registered sex offenders living within a two-mile (3 km) radius of the Ramseys' home

Gary Howard Oliva, who was arrested for "two counts of attempted sexual exploitation of a child and one count of sexual exploitation of a child" charges in June 2016 according to Boulder's Daily Camera. Oliva, a registered sex offender, was identified as a suspect

Thanks, r52–interesting and intriguing possibility that it was him.

Helgoth had some kind of a property dispute with the Ramseys and like to dress up as a ninja and break into homes. He had wolf puppies that matched the animal hair found on JonBenet.

Some people think John Ramsey killed Jon Benet and then killed Helgoth to cover up.

Michael Helgoth was ruled out because his DNA didn't match. However if you rule him out based on the DNA, then you also must rule out Patsy and John because their DNA did not match either.

Copy of the ransom note

Copy of the ransom note

Link works

The letter sounds like it was written by a deranged frau.

Patsy was a state champion debater, graduated Magna Cum Laude (GPA of 3.8-3.9) with a degree in Journalism and a minor in advertising. Patsy was well educated, intelligent, and was a good writer.

OP.... NO!

The murder was clearly done by someone in the immediate family.

The DNA testing, done long after the murder, turned out to be a composite of JonBenet's DNA, and the DNA of two unknown persons. It's not clear that the DNA had anything to do with the murder.

Why is Patty always posting on here that JonBenet was a harlot? What don't we know Patty?

Now really, R64, if she wanted you to know, drastic action could have been avoided.

The ransom note reads like it was written by a dumbass. Who 'listens' to a letter, and what exactly is a "group of individuals" ?

I wonder where the parents got such a trashy name for their daughter? That name just fits the sordidness of this whole crime.

What r63 said. Keep up, the DNA was light touch DNA. They found the same light touch DNA from the clothing sitting in the store. It had nothing do with the murder.

Anyway, obviously the family killed her. Anyone trying to create other possibilities to make more of a mystery can't explain the ransom note.

They concocted JonBenét out of her father’s given name John Bennett.

English does not have diacritical marks

There is an accent above attaché in the ransom note as well as in Jon-Benet's name

The note was left in an obscure area of the house -- a back staircase that Patsy would habitually descend each morning -- rather than, say, on Jonbenet's bed or the kitchen table where it would surely be found, is significant. Patsy would mention to police that the housekeeper sometimes left notes for her in that area. The housekeeper and her husband would become immediate suspects after this, coupled with the fact that Linda had asked Patsy for a loan just before the murder.

The bit that’s always got me is if you do this, she dies, if you do that, she dies. If you talk to a stray dog, she dies (what the?!). Also the beheading bit.

I think it's been that the reference to "you do this and do that or she dies," is very similar to a scene from a Dirty Harry movie.

Patsy obviously wrote the note.

It was a suicide.

The second that willful child decided to talk back to her Christ-fearing mother.

Even the much analysed "listen carefully", as a clue the note was dictated, was pulled right from the movie "Ruthless People"

The note was signed S.B.T.C, which obviously means "search Burke's toy chest"

The creep that claimed he killed Jon Benet in 2006 to get out of Thailand is now living as a woman in Alabama.

R47 for the win.

R78 Can she do a quick-ball-change over the bridge of the "Good Ship Lollipop"?

If so, as her to call me.

ASK!

"The creep that claimed he killed Jon Benet in 2006 to get out of Thailand is now living as a woman in Alabama."

I'm shocked, I tell you-- SHOCKED!!!

I always thought it would have had to be a member of the family, but then we keep getting stories of creeps living in people's houses without their knowledge for months or years, so I can't rule it out. But, I actually feel it was John and Patsy went along because she couldn't live with the shame that her husband was a murdering child molester. And, in the end he killed his daughter AND screwed up his son's life.

"but then we keep getting stories of creeps living in people's houses without their knowledge for months or years"

The call is coming from INSIDE the house!!!!!!

The mother certainly wrote the ransom note, but it is more likely Burke killed Jon-Beignet.

I read this book, "JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation," by Steve Thomas, former Boulder, CO, detective.

The ransom note is the piece of evidence that always stands out most to me. IIRC, some handwriting experts said that the note was not written by Patsy. I still think Patsy wrote the ransom note. The request was for $118,000, which was the exact amount of John Ramsay's Christmas bonus. The handwriting did look like her handwriting, IMO.

There were, indeed, some sketchy characters in the neighborhood. IIRC, one suspect was the guy who dressed up as Santa Claus every year.

You never know.

It. Was. John. It’s 100%. His lawyer Lin Wood sues the hell out of everyone who says this (be cautious, an anonymous poster on another forum had his identity revealed by Wood and was sued to smithereens.

She had signs of prior sexual abuse. The coroner’s report makes that very very clear. The DNA is “touch DNA” and is useless. John wrote the note solely for Patsy to find, and its purpose was to terrify her into *not* calling the police. He stashed the body hoping to buy time and was going to use the kidnapping ruse to get Patsy to believe she was indeed taken out of the home. He picked $118k because that was his year end bonus and it was gravy money, so he could tolerate giving up his extra income/bonus. Read the note imagining yourself as a hysterical pageant mom, and see if you would have called the police after being told repeatedly that if you do, your daughter would be beheaded. And it’s a testament to Patsy’s strength (I didn’t like her, but she wasn’t a wimp) that in spite of that note she called the police anyway.

The police were never supposed to be called. Patsy was the ultimate gaslighting victim of all time. Patsy was only caught in two lies, both of which stem from John’s manipulation. John, on the other hand, was caught in literally dozens of lies. And it’s amazing how he threw Patsy under the bus while she lived, and now he uses Burke in the same way.

It is indeed a fascinating story, and you actually can’t get the full picture from a single book. And he wrote the note of course!!! Explain why he was “ruled out” as the author a mere week after her death?? Google “handwriting sample John Ramsey” and then compare to note. He hired a huge army of lawyers and PR people immediately, that is literally the sole reason he was “ruled out,” and it was taken as gospel by the rinky-dink Boulder PD. The only things at this point that could break the case open would be:

A) the theft and release of John’s first lie detector test results given by his legal team

B) the theft and release of the last bits of witness testimony and evidence held by Fleet White (sp? Can’t remember).

C) the theft and release of JB’s pediatric medical records might provide additional insight.

Detective Linda “Crazy Eyes” Ardnt was supposed to write a book, it’s pretty obvious she believes that Patsy was innocent and it could therefore only be John. She even had long visits with her on her death bed, they remained very close — but no book.

Patsy was a cunt. So the people who knew her assumed she did it, but as I can attest to, being a cunt doesn’t make one a killer. She was a filthy woman too, the whole family was — but who showered that morning? Not our dirty pageant mom, but daddy. On DL there are a couple of posters who used to violently attack anyone who suggested it was John and not Patsy, I think d@vida was one of them, but in older threads it was difficult to discuss John as the killer because of her/him/it.

I could keep going, but only if you wish. My last tidbit is that I do think it gross and peculiar that John dated Natalie Holloway’s mother and he is now married to......an Las Vegas showgirl costume designer.

Great post r88. Patsy ignored the ransom instructions and called the police. JonBenet's body was hidden in a small room in the cellar. Perhaps John Ramsey was hoping to buy some time to sneak JonBenet's body out of the house and bury it or something along those lines.

[R88] I hadn’t thought of that scenario, but it makes sense. This case is endlessly fascinating because there are so many ways to interpret it and we’ll never know the answer. I didn’t know the Ramseys were dirty—they didn’t like bathing?

The house was dirty? I also never heard that. They must've had a housekeeper.

John Ramsey is getting up there - maybe after he croaks people will start talking more freely.

No, it is not safe to say Patty, or anyone else in that family, killed Jon Benet. If they had someone would have been indicted.

r88 keep going please

The letter appeared strongly to be Patsy's handiwork, didn't it?

Or was John such a twisted masochist being bullied by Patsy that he knew just how to frame the note in a way that imitated her own craziness?

It doesn't look like a good time to be a creative writer. I still think Patsy was doing the covering up.

R93= Delusional.

[quote]No, it is not safe to say Patty, or anyone else in that family, killed Jon Benet. If they had, someone would have been indicted.

That's so adorable it would be a shoo-in for the "Little Miss Snowflake" pageant.

Whenever John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey were interviewed together, I was fascinated by the body language. John had no love and no regard for Patsy.

[quote] I didn’t know the Ramseys were dirty—they didn’t like bathing?

IIRC, Patsy was photographed in the same clothes two days in a row. This was really close to the time of JonBenet's death. That may be why someone is calling her dirty.

Patsy wrote the note, I have no doubt about that, and I also suspect it was dictated to her by John.

I don't think she killed Jon-Benet, though. If she had, John would have ratted her out to save himself. He's most likely the murderer, though it's possible John was pimping JB out or doing shady business with someone who killed her, and the Ramsays covered it up to protect themselves from further criminal charges.

It's also possible John convinced Patsy that Burke did it and she needed to protect her son.

Excuse my extraneous hyphen. I dunked on someone earlier for having a poor grasp of punctuation, of course. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

r91 well Burke did frequently spread his feces over the walls of the house

R88 has convinced me. That was thorough research. I've had a weird interest in this story forever. But I've never heard such a profound breakdown. John for the kill. Poor little girl.

[quote]No, it is not safe to say Patty, or anyone else in that family, killed Jon Benet. If they had, someone would have been indicted.

The Grand Jury recommended an indictment, but for some reason the Boulder D.A., Alex Hunter, declined.

Speaking of dirty, in her book the housekeeper claimed that Patsy allegedly complained to her about having to suck John's unwashed, disgusting cock.

Why didn’t she tell him to get his shitty ass into the shower?! He is a loathsome human.

r88 "I could keep going, but only if you wish."

Please do!

They were clearly Satanists.

Last known image of JonBenet

What are you all talking about? The bitch is still alive.

Oh, yes.

We're so sorry, Patty...

What about John's real kids? The one's he had with his first wife, which is the real wife.

[quote]The one's he had with his first wife

Oh, dear!

Once Jon-Benet told Patsy, "I am NOT one of your FANS!" she was all but done for.

Patsy was buried in a cowgirl costume that was a copy of one of JonBenet's pageant costumes.

[quote]Once Jon-Benet told Patsy, "I am NOT one of your FANS!" she was all but done for.

Poor thing probably never even saw it coming.

[quote]Last known image of JonBenet

Goodness, I didn't know John had a penis-cam.

Did Patsy really say that about John's dick? She didn't seem the type to discuss such matters.

What were the last words JonBenet ever heard?

"This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you."

Even if the 9-year-old Burke did hit his sister, I still hold the parents morally accountable. They should have gotten their son help - not fashioned a garrote to finish her off and then fake a kidnapping.

r120 Burke definitely seems like he had severe behavioral issues and is likely on the autism spectrum. I wonder if the parents had him medicated or if he was diagnosed with anything.

Did JonBenet die with her caboodles open?

"Burke was far too young and weak to have killed her. "

Burke wasn't. He'd previously whacked her on the head with a gold club and smeared faeces on her Christmas presents. It's all out there. Siblings can and do go for each other for all kinds of reasons. And sometimes things go too far and accidents happen that you cannot reverse.

I'm not saying he did it but he's a prime contender.

R89 your post gives food for thought and actually I never considered that perspective before.

Death by garroting is apparently common in the Philippines, where John Ramsey had been stationed.

Pity the whole family didn't die.

No way it was Patsy

The main reason I've never thought Patsy did it is because, as a former beauty pageant contestant, and Miss West Virginia 1977, but not a finalist at Miss America, Jon Benet was going to avenge her mother...and Patsy had the money and resources (photographers, designers, coaches) to make it happen.  Jon Benet was one of her main reasons to live...why kill her? She was a very pretty child, who showed promise to grow into a beautiful young lady.  All the kiddie pageants were just prep for the big show.

R128, it was clear she didn't have my winning personality, was rather clumsy on stage and was not aging well.

It was Patsy. She was convinced she could take JonBenet's place in the next pageant a la Joan Crawford in The Secret Storm.

Though I like the John theory, I don't see how he thought he could get a moment away from Patsy long enough to remove the body and bury it or whatever. Suppose she went along with the note and didn't call the police? How was he going to handle a near hysterical wife who probably would have stayed by his side every moment after discovering the note.

Maybe John was planning on offing Patsy too, but then she called the police LOL!

R132 I could totally see that being the case.

John, Patsy and Burke did it together.

It was just all done so strangely. Definitely amateurs in charge- whoever they were.

Patsy, the morning they found JonBenet's body, breaking the news to relatives in West Virginia:

"You better sit down, as I have some news: The sister act is going to be a solo."

Well, now that she's dead I think it's safe.

R78 She looks like she wants to speak to the manager in that pic.

Anyways, the 911 call was enhanced and Patsy can heard saying "My God, what have you done?" or something similar to someone in the background. Most likely, Burke.

Patsy said to Burke: "We're not talking to you."

It was the Tot Mom

I've never read any of the books. What was John and Patsy's marriage like? Did they get along or was she a nagging bitch and he just didn't have much to do with her?

"Patsy said to Burke: 'We're not talking to you.'"

I thought it was John who said it, wasn't it?

Patsy can be heard saying to John:

"Did you stick that smelly tallywacker up her little bottom again? Did you? She can barely walk! How do you expect her to tap dance the dickens out of The Good Ship Lollipop on Tuesday? There is no way she's going to win now. Why, she might as well be [inaudible]!"

R88 has it right, I think.

Someone up thread mentioned a housekeeper and I found the linked interview.

Interesting points: -John had a collage of photos of his 1st dead daughter next to his bathtub. -"the large photograph John had of an aircraft carrier. On the bottom of the picture in fancy writing were the words Subic Bay Training Center. It used to hang behind his desk in the bedroom." as in Victory SBTC. -She cleaned their sheets and the Ramseys never had sex. -John put Jonbenet to bed with a bottle and video. -John said publicly he didn't know JB wet the bed, but privately complained about it. -He once came in the room and unplugged the housekeeper's vacuum without saying a word and walked away because he didn't like noise. -JB said she couldn't eat McDonalds anymore because "Eating McDonalds makes you fat."

R88 here, I’m literally in the middle of a Yosemite visit, “hence” my limited availability (that’s a John joke). I’m not an expert, but I am an expert compared to most here, haha, just teasing my friends! Perhaps a better way to handle this is for you to ask me questions — I won’t bullshit if I don’t know the answer.

Other random factoids:

A). Patsy and John didn’t have sex for multiple years while she had cancer.

B.) If you watch the CNN video of Patsy taken a mere week after the death (if memory serves?) you can see that she’s clearly high as fuck on what I would surmise were benzos. Multiple friends have stated that she was such a mess afterward that she was kept heavily medicated the first year — perfect for gaslighting, no?

C.) Ironically, the book that creates some of the strongest evidence again John is Foreign Faction — written to convince you that Burke did it. Read the chapter on The Evolution of John....

D.) I may get the statistic slightly wrong, but one of the FBI experts consulted back in the day said that statistically speaking, in his experience the odds in a case like this are 13 to 1 that the “eldest male in the household is the murderer.” Just basic stats.

E.) I despised Alex Hunter forever (the DA who failed to indict). He was corrupt, yes yes, but I actually came to believe he would have taken the shot if he could have. What I now believe is that while the Grand Jury recommended charges, the prosecution had no way to prove which parent did it, and how much Patsy knew. He therefore decided he would not proceed because he did not believe he could win.

F.) Barry Scheck of OJ defense team fame tried to help the prosecution build their case in an effort to mitigate his tarnished reputation for assisting La Juice.

r146 why did he kill JB? any motive?

Shriek!!!!!! I forgot my most important point. For years and years, experts have debated who authored the note. I cannot take credit for this idea, and I have dissected it over the years trying to disprove it, but trying to use various paradigms to prove who wrote it will never work. Why? First and foremost, handwriting analysis was *not* a legitimate science **at the time of the murder.** Two, when getting into statement analysis, one can make a case that a female wrote the note just as one can point to many things that point to a male writing it. Back, and forth, back, and forth. Matching the handwriting, well....did you know that handwriting analysis only works when handwriting is not disguised? I’ll bet you didn’t. Obviously, whoever wrote it was trying to hide their identity, ergo, comparing the note to Patsy and John’s exemplars doesn’t technically work. Statement analysis is not even a hard science, unlike handwriting analysis which matured as a direct result of this case. I put statement analysis up there with phrenology and the reading of palms and the power of crystals to heal one’s chakra.

Please send me questions, discussing this case never gets old, and while you’ll never convince me that anyone but her father did it, I am indeed willing to explain myself. There may be a delay on my response due to my soaking in the beauty of Yosemite, but I will indeed respond.

r148 what rules out Burke as the killer?

R147, one can only speculate. But my best guess goes something like this....

John was diddling his daughter. While we all know the most common profile of a pedophile is the impulsive, chronic abuser who can not control his urge, a sub-category that is much less discussed in places like Internet forums is the Opportunistic Abuser. The OA likely has had thoughts his whole life, but unless presented with the “perfect” opportunity, will *never* act. What better opportunity to act out your sick fantasies on your sexualized daughter than when your wife is dying, hmmmmm? I believe he had been grooming her and abusing her for quite some time. JB was a mouthy little princess. We also know that the abuse that might would have caused her great pain. So how about this? “Daddy stop it, it hurts! Stop!!! I told you to stop it! I’m telling mommy!” John sees his life flash before his very eyes. Wham to the head.

R149, and what rules him in? And what rules out John?

Why is it easier to believe that a little boy applied a blow so powerful it would have knocked over a defensive lineman, and then both parents conspired together to engage in a huge cover-up (so both parents lost their minds at the same time??? And Patsy wouldn’t have called 911 to try and save her daughter, who meant literally everything to her?). Think about it. The most straight forward scenario is that daddy was abusing her, something caused him to believe he was about to be exposed, and he killed her. A take as old as time itself.

“The abuse that NIGHT” not might

[quote]JB said she couldn't eat McDonalds anymore because "Eating McDonalds makes you fat."

And people call me a bad mother!

It was creepy the way John was described as holding JB's lifeless body around the waist and carrying her like a doll. Yes she was dead, but you would think one would still handle their own child with care.

R154, I agree, and it is one of truly dozens of inexplicable actions John took within the first 24 hours.

The autopsy showed that JonBenet had been sexually abused, and who else could it have been but John? She was never alone with any other men except her father.

I believe that either John killed her or Patsy walked in on him abusing her, went to attack John but accidentally hit JonBenet instead and accidentally killed her. Then they both conspired to cover it up because they both would've gone to prison if they hadn't.

I think it could really have been any of the immediate family. Patsy may have been prone to rage episodes and something set her off that caused her to go too far, then a family cover-up ensued. Or John was molesting JonBenet and killed her to protect himself, and somehow convinced Patsy to help cover it up. Or Burke did it, thus the family cover-up. I tend to think there may have been something even more sinister going on, like JB being made available to perverts by one or both of the parents, and possibly a third party was invited into the home and given the opportunity to molest her in private, and somehow she died. Then there was a hasty cover-up after the person fled the scene. Really, any number of dark scenarios could be the real reason, but it seems obvious the immediate family was responsible, and only they will ever know the truth, barring a deathbed confession.

R156, I want you to seriously think that through, second by second (not trying to be too bitchy). John doesn’t hear Patsy approaching? JB doesn’t hear her approaching? No defensive/reflexive moves are made by either of them? John doesn’t go Donkey Kong on Patsy after she crushes JB’s skull? And so Patsy knows he was molesting the most important child to her, the person she built her entire life around, and yet she lets him essentially get away with it after her moment of murderous rage? And is able to stomach remaining married to him?!?!? And having sex with him again??? According to their jointly written book they rekindled their sex life after her death.

Does any of that sound plausible to you when framed this way? Again, not trying to insult you — I suspect that you have been affected by the years of PR that John *still* pays for — I too thought like you. But once you see how simple it is to accept that he did it, that it makes all the other pieces fit together in a way that makes sense, and in fact is the *only* explanation that is direct and simple, you’ll never go back. If I can convert you, I will have done some good in this cold world, HA!!

R157, it doesn’t require such a complex explanation. It really can be pretty simple.

I never thought about the killer being John Ramsey, but it makes sense in one way. If the killer were Burke, I think it would have been easier for the family to claim it was a horrible accident. Kids do all kinds of thoughtless things to each other, like push each other down violently. Head injuries are unpredictable. There are death cases that involve a single blow (or knock on the ground) to the head.

If the killer had been John, that would explain the elaborate (but stupid) cover-up. An adult is supposed to be more careful and more thoughtful.

But r158 you said Patsy couldn't have stayed married to John if she knew he did it, but if he DID do it, she obviously would've known.

I definitely think it was either John or Patsy.

What I’m saying r161, is that it is much more plausible that John did it but his wife did not know it versus John did do it AND she stayed with him. AND even helped cover it up, in some scenarios. I’m saying that both scenarios are not equal — one is much more likely than the other. And no, there’s no way in fucking hell that John, a Navy man, thought his wife killed their child and he then helped cover it up to protect the wife.

R162 So you are stating that you think John Ramsey committed the murder, staged the break-in, and wrote the ransom note entirely by himself and then gaslit/bamboozled his wife into the intruder hypothesis?

There are women who stay with their partners even when they abuse or kill their child. I think being Mrs. Patsy Ramsey was more important to her than protecting Jonbenet.

I've no doubt John did it.

Eight suspects named in the linked story, some more plausible than others.

Ding ding ding!! Yes r163. If you don’t believe me, just buy Foreugn Faction and read the chapter on John’s story. His story is never told the same way twice!

R164, please understand that when he wrote the note, the *purpose* of the note was to thwart Patsy from calling the police. Everything that followed afterward was him clawing his way out of being caught. If you need me to go through a timeline of that morning to prove to you that John, and only John, did all the staging, I can do that.

R164, I agree with you that women do indeed do that, But it is entirely another thing when a woman feeds her own ego through her child’s life and experiences — Patsy does not fit the profile of an abused woman in any way.

I think that Patsy loved her more than life itself, and that she would have done anything to not lose her. Patsy is not a sympathetic character, she was vain and unlikeable, but there is no denying her love for JB. I encourage you to find one single example that shows that Patsy was not head over heels with her daughter and loved being her mom.

when I heard that one of the Ramsays killed her, I thought, it has to be Tootie who killed her.

But then Natalie said that the night Jonbenet was killed she and Tootie were together. In fact they were out looking for the guy who raped Natalie.

But Blair pointed out that the cane from Natalie's Charlie Chaplin costume was missing.

[quote] Though I like the John theory, I don't see how he thought he could get a moment away from Patsy long enough to remove the body and bury it or whatever.

Presumably he had vague plans of going out to “pay the kidnapper”. Probably thought he could do it then.

I agree that the most likely person by far is John. The Burke theory has never made sense to me.

If he (Burke) had smashed her head in and Patsy &/or John found her, then why not put her at the bottom of the stairs and say she fell? It’s completely absurd to imagine them throttling her, sticking a paintbrush inside her and writing a ransom note. The smack on the head didn’t kill her, apparently, so they finished her off rather than call for help?

It’s not impossible, but it’s too fucking bizarre to be likely.

I think John had been abusing her for a while. That night she kicked up a stink and he hit her hard enough for her to pass out. Thinking he had killed her, he panicked and wrote the note to fool Patsy and convince her not to call the police. He was hoping to put her in the suitcase and get her out of the house when he went to “meet the kidnapper”. At some point he checked on JonBenet’s body, saw she was still breathing so garrotted her with the paintbrush handle he’d abused her with earlier.

His hastily conceived plan was screwed by Patsy immediately calling the police.

I don’t know how he was planning to fake a call from the kidnappers but he was thinking on the fly in the middle of the night so probably hadn’t got every detail nailed down yet.

The thing is...Occam’s Razor and all that....when a young child is being sexually abused, 99% of the time it’s an adult male in the home. And when that child is murdered, it’s usually the abuser.

You're creepier than your scenario r169. Occam's razor indeed.

[quote]JonBenet’s body, saw she was still breathing so garrotted her with the paintbrush handle he’d abused her with earlier.

So you're saying Mrs Garrett did it with Natalie's Charlie Chaplin stick?

[quote]And when that child is murdered, it’s usually the abuser.

Usually but not always which means the whole statement is pointless. Most murders get solved within a day or so. The longer you wait the harder it is. But that doesn't mean you give up.

Most abducted girls are murdered and raped, but Jayme Closs wasn't.

the stupidest thing about this is the ransom note. if there was no ransom note, than it makes the intruder theory a hundred times more believable. i can't see as many people disagreeing with the intruder theory if he came, got her, molested her than killed her. it's the note that stuffs that up.

[quote]I think John had been abusing her for a while.

According to the autopsy there were no signs of prior abuse, either sexually or physically. You can tell old abuse. Of course autopsies have been known to be wrong or miss things.

For comparison, here is the ransom note from the Leopold and Loeb crime, where they kidnapped Bobby Franks

Please note, that Leopold and Loeb didn't know who they were going to kill and in their confession said whomever they kidnapped, they intended to kill. The fact that Bobby Franks was related to Loeb was coincidental.

R170 Yes, dear....Occam’s razor. The simplest explanation tends to be correct.

R172 What? I am not sure you understand how probabilities work. Of course it doesn’t mean that the most likely explanation is always going to be correct. It could have been Burke. It could have been Patsy. It could have been all three in some way. Or the neighbour man. Or a small foreign faction. But given the evidence & given what we know about likely perpetrators of child abuse I think it’s most LIKELY to be John.

R174 No, according to the autopsy there was evidence of “possible previous sexual abuse”. Although that might have been due to an infection or something else.

Look...I am not saying anyone here can say as a matter of fact what happened that night, we’re just giving opinions. And, at this stage, no one’s is more valid than anyone else’s, because we don’t know.

I’ll also add, R172 - do you know why, when a woman is murdered, the husband/boyfriend is the first suspect, almost regardless of the circumstances?

Because, more often than not, it is the husband/boyfriend. In something like 80% + cases.

But no one in their right mind would suggest this fact alone proves with 100% certainty that it is the husband/boyfriend - and nobody would be dumb enough to suggest that, because it’s not ALWAYS the intimate partner it’s therefore meaningless to remember it usually is. Except you, of course.

Like I said in my initial response to OP above there are factions of people equally sure that each of the three family members did it.

I was actually convinced by the "John did it" guy here, but then I did a little reading. Now, not handwriting analysis, but computer analysis of the language, punctuation, and grammar that was used in the note has pretty much conclusively proven the note was written by Patsy. That is pretty much universally agreed upon by all modern day language analysis, when you compare the note to Patsy's other writings. I have no dog in this race, it's just a face.

There's a bowl of UNFINISHED pineapple covered with Jerk, I mean, Burke's fingerprints. JonBenet had pineapple in her stomach. The parents deny feeding Burke or JonBenet anything.

There is tape of Burke being interviewed by the police. He's acting all spacey and lighthearted- they show him the picture of the pineapple. At first, he doesn't recognize it. When he does, his mood shifts very suddenly, and he says "oh." I know that "oh" from when I was a kid. That meant I was caught. I think this video really holds the key.

I think the case for Burke doing it is pretty good. I don't think I could convict him if I were on a jury, but I'm fairly certain he did it.

(Don't wanna get into a fight. As I said, this case is so interesting because many people are equally convinced that a different person did it.)

What about those taser marks job benet had? What the hell can explain that away? This case is so damn weird

R179 The marks apparently matched some prongs on pieces of a railway set nearby - so that may be the answer to that.

R178 I agree with you - I have no dog in this fight either. If this was a simple, slam-dunk case, we wouldn’t still be speaking about it all these years later. I think you can make a reasonable case against any of them.

I will disagree about the video of Burke, though. If he didn’t do anything wrong, then he was a little kid who’d been through the terrifying and confusing situation of a “bad man” sneaking into his house and murdering his sister while he slept. Children find coping mechanisms when stuff like that happens, so I don’t think you can read anything into his behaviour back then.

Just because something happens most of the time, doesn't mean you can or should apply it with any significance. For instance if there are 500 murders in a city of three million people the number of murders vs the people data set is still far too small to draw any significant statistical influence from..

This is why police experts and psychological profiles of murders and killer are so often wrong.

The number of serial/spree killers is so small when looked at by a population set any attempt to draw patterns is useless from a statistical point.

This is why when you have a case like Jayme Closs, where the crime was random to everyone except the perpetrator that it is hard to comprehend. This is why there are literally thousands of unsolved cases in the last century because often there is no causal connection between perpetrator and victim. Or even worse the causal connection may not be the correct, as seen in the 93 DC killer who killed 8 people at random and the first five were homosexuals and that turned out to be purely chance.

Just because the male happens to be the agent in the majority of solved cases, the number is too small for any meaningful statistical relationship. This is why you have so many police screw ups because they draw conclusions based on things that aren't meaningful. This leads to a longer investigation. The longer the investigation goes on, the further away the perpetrator can go.

[quote] Just because something happens most of the time, doesn't mean you can or should apply it with any significance.

Sorry, but that’s absolute drivel.

Probabilities matter & are used wherever logic is.

Know what a probability is? It’s the “extent to which an event is likely to occur”.

How do we evaluate probabilities? We look at the evidence of prior events.

If you’re suggesting that the police wouldn’t look at the MOST PROBABLE (aka MOST LIKELY) explanation for an event first, then you’re an idiot. They need evidence to demonstrate that’s what happened of course - a probability isn’t evidence in and of itself - but MOST of the time their suspicions regarding the husband of a murdered woman turn out to be correct.

Most of the time children are abused by adults within their family. Therefore, it is MOST LIKELY that JonBenet was abused by John.

This does not mean that John therefore abused her with 100% certainty, but abuse by a father is a (sadly) relatively common event. Being murdered by an eight year old boy is a staggeringly unlikely event. Yes, it happens on occasion but very, very rarely. Add to that a scenario where parents cover up the attack by an eight year old boy by throttling their other child, and you have an event so rare it’s probably never happened before.

So, I am therefore justified in saying that it is MORE LIKELY that JonBenet came to harm at the hands of a parent than her brother. Not enough evidence to convict anyone, of course, but it IS more likely - and that is not “insignificant” or “meaningless”.

Sadly we will most likely never know for sure who killed her, but something is terribly WRONG with Burke. That guy is creepy.

I don't see how you can watch this and deny she wrote the note. First of all, the handwriting is similar to her's. Secondly, she's being evasive.

[quote]First of all, the handwriting is similar to her's

Oh, dear!

This handwriting analysis woman is VERY convincing. Also, the guy who exposed Joe Klein as the author of Primary Colors using language analysis says it's very likely Patsy wrote the note. I'm as convinced as I can be that this is the case.

Less CONVINCED, but pretty sure Burke did it. I think they discover her hit over the head over the pineapple, and surmise that Burke did it. They decide to cover up for him and she writes the note. I think they never confronted Burke, and he may not even recall having done it. Once the police are called, what actually happened is never acknowledged or discussed between them again. They proceed, in public and private, as if the ransom note was real, and JonBenet was killed by an intruder.

r183 Burke was busy in his third grade year at a new school named High Peaks. It was a Core Knowledge school which accesses high academics and personal achievement. He loved it! He continued with Boy Scouting and the piano. That winter he was the tallest guy on his basketball team. Summer on Charlevoix was spent taking golf and sailing lessons each day. Burke was quite the sailor! Burke was a busy fourth grader where he really shined in math and spelling. He played flag football that fall and was on a basketball binge! His little league team was #1. He had lost just about all of his baby teeth!

Burke was very matter-of-fact about his sister's death. He was interviewed on camera and just came off as a very detached, clinical little boy. Probably psychopathic.

The mother definitely wrote the letter though. There are words that occur in specific places that she used in her daily language, which was unique to her. I don't care how many nutjob old timers and wannabe paedos come forward looking for their five minutes of fame last week, the answer lies within the family imo. There was no outside party or gang of satanists lurking in the basement. Experts have recently blown apart the theory she was sexually molested too.

r188 Burke comes across as someone on the autism spectrum... maybe Asperger's. In that Dr. Phil interview, he had like one facial expression the entire time - an awkward smile. His eye contract was strange and he hardly looked at Phil for a long period of time. In the videos and pictures of him as a kid, he reminds me of autistic kids I know. Similar body language and behavior.

Don't touch my pineapple, bitch.

R88, I agree with much of what you said in your post EXCEPT for the fact that you falsely accuse another poster of defending John as the likely killer. In fact that poster repeatedly said the father obviously sexually abused his daughter, and was pilloried on DL for her claim.

As a veteran of many prestitgious pageants, I didn't kill the daughter; I eliminated the competition.

R174, Then why were there so many trips to the same pediatrician for vaginal irritations which most very young girls don't ever get? Unless of course they've been repeatedly sexually abused.

R184 et al, Did John Ramsey have the skills to fake Patsy's handwriting style? Considering his military background and experiences, was he a sociopath/psychopath?

R88, What do you make of the claims that John Ramsey previously visited Amsterdam supposedly for work? Or that there were claims he had child porn on his computer, or had tried to delete it? Was any of this true? I haven't read any of the books on this case.

Note that their regular pastor refused to shake either parent's hand as he normally would after the murder. Also how quickly they left Boulder, CO.

The brother accidentally killed her. Jon Bent took some of his late night dessert (gross pineapple chunks in milk) and he chased her with a flashlight (one of those HEAVY flashlights that have 4 D batteries in the handle) and hit her on the head with it. It was just enough to crush in a spot on her head and kill. her. The parents freaked out and right then (badly) staged the house so it would seem like an outsider must have done it. Patsy wrote the infamous note, it's in her handwriting and uses verbiage that she used. The police fucked up and didn't secure the area, partially because the family was white and rich and they were allowed to come and go all over the crime scene. People are stupid and came up with all these "outside intruder" theories because of all the staging but the reality is sadly simple and obvious.

R195 likely has it correct.

R191, I wasn’t attacking anyone, particularly on this thread — I was referring to older threads. Perhaps my post didn’t make it clear, but I was referring to the “of course Patsy did it you filthy whore!!!” brigade of days gone past.

R194, I know about his travels there and I actually researched it as much as a layperson can, and while I could not find anything, but I do believe there is something to it. Why? Because police were (from what I gathered) unable to ever trace any reason for him to travel there and could never find witnesses to corroborate his activities there. My suspicion is that the police leaked this info in the hopes that it would rattle John and/or encourage a witness to come forward. For the life of me, I *cannot* remember where I read this factoid, but supposedly there was indeed child porn found on A computer in John’s company that John used, but supposedly this computer was used by multiple people and not exclusively by John, so the police could never pin it to him. Of course, I can’t say for certain, but John’s business was cyber security, so it would definitely not be surprising if he was smart enough to not browse on his personal computer, no?

But you want to hear something truly mind-blowing??? One of several excellent sites on this case is SolvingJonBenet (the owner is unabashedly of the John Did It Camp), and you know what he figured out? He noticed that the ransom note, particularly in the beginning, looks like it had possibly been traced because of the spacing between the words (quite astute I must say). At first, this made little sense to him because the police checked John’s laptop, and wouldn’t they have found a draft of the ransom note? However, he then remembered that word processing software allowed users to turn off the auto-save. Bingo! John didn’t save it. Next, he spent some time playing with various fonts, font sizes, and margins. And you know what he uncovered? That a huge section of the note from to start to maybe 50% in (I cannot remember exactly how far) was a *perfect* match for a setting he replicated. I mean perfect, down to the lower case letter A’s!! Something weird like Courier 11 with a 3 inch left margin. The settings don’t matter on this thread, but the point is that it was indeed TRACED most perfectly, and the writer apparently was rushing to finish at the end andvthe tracing stops. Marinate on that idea, then remember he was in cyber security......

I have noticed several posters once again referring to handwriting analysis and/or statement analysis. Again, I beseech you, shelve all that, if only temporarily. Look at the *purpose* of the note, and solely that. Read it carefully with that at the forefront of your mind. Then come back and report to us bitches!!! Obviously, the general public has matured in their understanding enough to be clear that there was no intruder (it only took about 1.5 decades for his PR campaign to wear off. So, read that note, and you tell me, what was the fucking purpose? And my million dollar question — if Patsy wrote that note, then of course, she knew there was a body in the house....if Patsy knew there was a body in the house, then why did she call the police, hmmmmmm?

R189 I agree that Burke appears to be on the "autism spectrum... maybe Asperger's." I knew someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers, and they acted similar to what R188 described, when a family member they were close to, but in no way could have killed, died. Which is why I don't like the idea of assigning guilt based on his behavior. Yes, his behavior is abnormal, but that doesn't mean he is a murderer.

R197, You falsely accused me by name of something I do not believe and have never ever stated on past threads, nor even implied, typical of several posters frequenting DL.

Patsy was obviously obsessed with keeping up surface appearances. She would not have wanted to have seen her very manipulative husband arrested and charged with a horrendous crime, and the total social rejection that meant.

Proof? What wife accepts a non-sexual, non-affectionate relationship with her husband knowing that powerful, married, socially prominent men have a lot of options?

R99 snort!!! Bitch please. We all know how much you enjoy derailing. If it wasn’t you in those threads, then it was you in a thousand other ones.

The housekeeper said there was no affection shown at home between John and Patsy or towards the children. Patsy's job seemed to be keeping the children out of John's way.

R88, can you be my lawyer?

[quote]I wasn’t attacking anyone

Please, you've been insulting people left and right for days. Hell, you just accused me of derailing thousands of threads because I apologized (once!) for misspelling JB's name at r99. You got praise for your theory at r88 and apparently let it go to your head. Sad, really.

This was definitely an inside job. I feel completely certain about that. I'm not 100% sure about who did it, but Burke is most likely.

[quote] [R189] I agree that Burke appears to be on the "autism spectrum... maybe Asperger's." I knew someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers, and they acted similar to what [R188] described, when a family member they were close to, but in no way could have killed, died. Which is why I don't like the idea of assigning guilt based on his behavior. Yes, his behavior is abnormal, but that doesn't mean he is a murderer.

And I knew of someone on the spectrum who killed a bunch of kids at Newtown. So much for anecdotes.

Maybe autism makes it less likely he'd kill. Maybe it makes him more likely. Or maybe it's irrelevant - but anecdotes like yours are just as stupid as mine about the Newtown killer, if not moreso.

R205 My anecdote was just about people saying he had to have done it because he acted clinical and detached. That is how people on the spectrum act, and therefore shouldn't be as taken as proof of guilt.

I don't believe John would've had the presence of mind to imitate Patsy's handwriting style. Plus, the language analysis excludes John and includes Patsy. I think this guy's John did it theory is interesting, but if John thought Patsy would never call the police, why would he bother staging the garotte and all that jazz?

I think John did it is as sound a theory as any of the others, but I don't embrace it as the end all be all theory. There are signifigant holes in it. As there are with most theories about this case.

At some point, somebody had to call the police. At least to report a missing child. If John had been the killer, then it makes sense that he would enlist Patsy to help him stage a kidnapping with a ransom note.

Jon Benet's hair was dyed blonde for the pageants.

Did they note find DNA or prints on the pen/paper/pad for the ransom note? The letter was from the middle of the pad so someone had to touch the pad and over pages.

Did they take prints from the spiral stairs to see if she really did hold on when she leaned over? Fatso couldn't have picked that up without assistance.

I emailed Boulder PD and suggested they try the DNA matching that solved Golden State Killer to use on the foreign DNA in her pants.

Great facts at link.

There were no fingerprints on the writing pad, which is a bit frustrating at first, because someone's prints should've been on it. It was used by household members. But looking closer, the public tends to think prints are on everything, while in reality, most surfaces do not leave the ability to take any prints or usable prints.

The Lindbergh Law which made kidnapping a federal crime, also saw a slew of little Lindberg Laws in which states made kidnapping itself a capital crime (overturned in 1968 by the US Supreme Court which said kidnapping alone cannot be a capital crime). These types of laws only served to hurt victims as they made it to no advantage to return the victim unharmed as the same penalty applied to killing the victim. [Note: These laws never applied and still don't apply to parents of children, custodial or non. Those are covered by different laws]

In the USA, every year about 450,000 children (under 18) go missing. (About 600,000 people in total are reported missing each year in the USA)

About 1,500 are classified as kidnappings and about 200 are kidnapped by strangers with no prior connection with the family. So it's not all the common of a crime.

So about 13% of all kidnapped children are taken by strangers, only a minute fraction of one percent of missing children are kidnapped.

Internationally Mexico, Nigeria and Uganda have the most kidnappings which usually result in the successful return of the victim IF money is paid, but only if paid.

I think her brother did it.

And now, thanks to this thread, I've fallen down the rabbit-hole of JBR web sleuthing. I had never paid this crime much attention, but it really is fascinating, and it seems for sure that the police department and the DA facilitated it becoming so confused and weird. It seems clear that it was some kind of "inside job" and all three surviving family members knew what happened. If so, it's amazing they were able to mount the front they put on without cracking, for all these years. All three of the others seem just as crazy and dishonest as they can be, in filmed interviews. The link above, in R210, has a lot of interesting info in it.

Did she definitely die the previous night?

Did Patsy ever say if John agreed with her to call the police?

[R214]: The info I've been reading lately says the police say that JB was hit in the head with a blunt, cylindrical object, her skull was bashed in an 8-inch long wound that would have ultimately killed her. But the autopsy indicates that she died of strangulation and her brain was swollen sufficiently at the time of death for a coroner to say that she had been alive after being struck for perhaps 2 hours. The detective who was there when John Ramsey carried the body up the stairs, noticed that JB's arms were stiffened, rigor mortis had already set in, so she had likely been dead for about 6 hours, or at least 6 hours. That kidnapping note took a LONG time to compose and write. Patsy Ramsey was wearing the party clothes she had had on the night before, at 5:55 a.m. when detective Linda Arndt arrived. Mrs. Ramsey's makeup was done and so was her hair. The STRONG implication is that these folks had been up nearly all night, covering up what had happened sometime around midnight. Watch the 10-minute interview with Det. Linda Arndt on youtube.

I've just listened to Patsy's 911 call and she sounds very convincing, very panicked. If she was faking then she's good..

Not this again. Can’t we talk about something else?

r216 I think one of her "talents" during her pageant days was drama.

Can't we just call Jessica Fletcher and solve this thing already?

R216, IMHO that’s because her call was indeed real. No way in fuck did her husband want the cops called, he wouldn’t even speak to them and had lawyered up within 45 minutes of finding her body. Yes, you read that right. And he had chartered a plane to get to Atlanta about an hour after finding his daughter’s body. Patsy just threw on the same clothes from the night before because she had dropped a fortune on her “Christmas outfit” at Bergdorf’s in NYC that fall so she wanted mileage out of it for their landing/celebration in Charlevoix.

We of course will never know the truth, but I wouldn’t be surprised if John tried to talk her out of calling the cops by saying “it’s what will keep our JonBenet alive.” Or whatever.

Detective Linda Ardnt told John and Fleet to search the house “top to bottom” to keep them out of her hair and give them a way to occupy themselves. She actually said she repeated this “top to bottom” more than once. And yet what happens? John charges *down* to the basement with Fleet racing behind him with his notepad (he voraciously took notes from the moment he came over til he left), John ran through the basement and to the wine cellar. Opens the door, screams, THEN turns on the light, waits for Fleet, then proceeds to *rip* the duck tape off her mouth, picks her up like a dog turd, and goes upstairs with her. Fleet noted that one could not actually see a thing, anything at all, inside the jet black wine cellar without turning on the light switch.

The parents obviously knew/know all about what happened. If Burke did whack her in the head, they then contrived this incredible, obscene plot to cover it up, and in fact strangled her to make it look like an "intruder". One cop is on record as saying the BPD speculated that the sexual penetration could have been manufactured to support the idea of a rapist/kidnapper. By the parents!! The only really interesting thing about the entire crime is that the parents were able to brazen their way through the public outcry without once breaking down. That "note" was written one or both of the parents, it's just obvious. To the extent that Burke knows more than he's saying, they all three committed the crime.

*duct tape lol

The duct tape, the boots (that left the print beside the body, parts of the paint brush that was used as a garotte, and the originals of the "test runs" for the ransom note were never found in the house. The webpage linked just above suggests that John took them out of the house to dispose of, in the middle of the night, and suggests he also took JB's oversized underwear and swiped them someplace in a bathroom, and picked up a pubic hair somewhere, likely in a gas station men's room, and then brought that stuff home and put it on the body, precisely to mislead. It seems plausible to me, not kooky.

R216, of course she was panicking. She (or her husband) had killed her daughter.

I don't know which of the Ramseys killed JonBenet, but John and Patsy were both unquestionably involved in the cover-up. John screamed BEFORE he turned the light on and saw JonBenet's body. The note was written by Patsy, who was trying to make her handwriting look messier than usual. The "voice" of the letter is very much like Patsy's, too. As other posters have pointed out, $118k just happened to be the exact amount of John's Christmas bonus, and the note had been written with one of the Ramseys' pens on one of their notepads. Any murderer who hangs around in the victim's house to write the War and Peace of ransom notes would have to be a complete idiot, yet they were apparently bright enough to manage not to leave a single clue as to their identity anywhere in the house.

I've also heard that John's "good southern common sense" (he was from Nebraska) was an in-joke within Patsy's family. If this is true, the line "Don't underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours" was a major slip-up. In fairness, though, I don't know the source of this claim or how reliable it is.

It's bizarre that the grand jury voted unanimously to indict the Ramseys, yet the DA overruled them. I think there was corruption behind the scenes. One of the detectives resigned in anger at the handling of the case.

R224, you should read Steve Thomas’ book on the case. I actually don’t agree with his theory, but he did the best he could with his experience and training working for a small police department with no crime. And it’s a GREAT book. Steve Thomas is the one who leaked all the info for the Vanity Fair story, he despised the DA (understandably) with a passion. But his book gives the best insider view of how the trust broke down irrevocably between the Boulder PD and the DA’s Office.

A quote from the Steve Thomas book:

"When we checked the photos from a big manila envelope marked as evidence item #85KKY, I almost fell out of my chair, and Peck inhaled in sharp surprise. A picture showed Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary on a coffee table in the first floor study, the corner of the lower left-hand page sharply creased and pointing like an arrow to the word incest. Somebody had apparently been looking for a definition of sexual contact between family members"

[quote] Detective Linda Ardnt told John and Fleet to search the house “top to bottom” to keep them out of her hair and give them a way to occupy themselves. She actually said she repeated this “top to bottom” more than once. And yet what happens? John charges *down* to the basement with Fleet racing behind him with his notepad (he voraciously took notes from the moment he came over til he left), John ran through the basement and to the wine cellar. Opens the door, screams, THEN turns on the light, waits for Fleet, then proceeds to *rip* the duck tape off her mouth, picks her up like a dog turd, and goes upstairs with her. Fleet noted that one could not actually see a thing, anything at all, inside the jet black wine cellar without turning on the light switch.

I realize that the police were inexperienced with serious crimes, but they really fouled up the crime scene. Even if they didn't yet suspect the John and Patsy, they should not have allowed John and Patsy to take charge of that crime scene.

No doubt r227. It’s incredible, and once again, it shows how much class and wealth tip the scales of justice. Can you imagine a *black* family being given this type of VIO treatment? No fucking way.

*VIP of course

I have no problems with anyone who thinks John, Patsy, or Burke did it. But I do have a problem with people who claim to know FOR SURE which one of the three did it. You can have your theory, but just understand there are people who are as convinced as you that one of the other two did it.

I would say it's pretty settled that Patsy wrote the note. I would argue with someone who says she didn't. I would also argue with someone who said it was an intruder.

They're winding down the evening, and Patsy makes Jerk, I mean, Burke pineapple with milk before bed. Pats leaves the kitchen and JonBenet comes from her room and starts eating some of Burke's snack. Burke is tired, cranky, and most importantly, doesn't understand the seriousness of hitting someone on the head with a heavy flashlight.

I think he does it and goes back to his room. Patsy discovers JonBenet. She realizes that Bruke has hit her, and she's out cold. As someone suggested, the rest of the night until the phone call at 5am is dedicated to staging the scene, composting the ransom note, and getting their story straight.

Patsy makes the hysterical screaming call at 5am, which wakes Burke up. We hear that on the 911 call- that's why she suddenly hangs up. I don't believe they ever spoke to Burke about what he did. I believe it's possible that Burke has blocked it out and doesn't remember doing it.

I hope maybe when John dies, they offer Burke complete immunity if he'll tell the truth. Just to put the whole thing to rest once and for all.

Detective Linda Arndt has crazy eyes, I just saw her on YouTube. From her interview she clearly believes John was the killer. She said Patsy gave a visceral, devastated scream (was she intimating that she believed Patsy?)

She freely says in the interview she allowed them to search the house instead of going with John herself. Big mistake. She also states when the body was brought up she told the family "if you want to say goodbye this is your only chance?"

WTF, did she have any training about preserving evidence.

*composing, not composting. haha.

Even the most amateur watcher of Forensic Files (like myself) would rope off the crime scene and get everyone out of the house. Not allowing Patsy to swan around on the divan quoting the Bible and raising her eyes to Jesus.

That dumb ass cop was where it all started....

What evidence could they have destroyed after the cop arrived? Wouldn't the crime scene have been set before they called if they'd worked together?

That pineapple bowl for instance was still there..

The people moving around in the house, and the movement of the body, and the covering of the body, all contaminated the crime scene. Had there been more cops there, they could have corralled the bystanders and dealt with the situation. BPD should not have sent a lone officer to the house, nor delayed getting more back-up there.

^The BPD were afraid to do anything to offend the Ramsey family.

The Ramseys, in the other hand, were offended they were ever considered as suspects. John and Patty wrote in their book that the BPD should have been looking for the killer instead of talking to them.

R234, you can’t think of everything, even if you have hours to clean a crime scene. If the police has immediately secured the house, there was a greater likelihood that something significant could have been found. Incidentally, I don’t recall all of the facts of the case anymore, but I thought John Ramsey wandered from police view at least once before he went to “search” the basement, so he may have been taking care of something that had been forgotten.

I don't think the BPD were necessarily afraid of offending the Ramsey family, at least not on the first day the crime was discovered. I think they were deferential because the couple's little girl had just been found strangled in their house on the morning after Christmas. And the scene, the evidence (esp that ransom note), was truly a mind-fuck. I'll also grant that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey (and Burke) all proved to be very unique individuals, to put it mildly.

[quote]The BPD were afraid to do anything to offend the Ramsey family.

If it had been the NYPD instead, they would've said "you're gettin' outta the fuckin' house right now, and that's fuckin' it. We have a job to do." They wouldn't have taken shit from John and Patsy for two seconds.

John Ramsey was caught trying to book, or confirm, a private jet flight to Minneapolis for himself and his wife and son (the trip had already been planned for 12/26, to meet up with his kids from his first marriage), and the cops told him it was out of the question (in addition to being highly suspicious, and bizarre, under the circumstances). They also told the family they'd have to go stay at a Holiday Inn that night, and JR backed them down and let them go spend the night with some friends instead.

If its true the BPD didn't want to offend the family then surely they would have sent as many officers as possible to respond to their report that their daughter was kidnapped?

Did The Ramsey's complain "This isn't good enough, why aren't you taking this seriously?!" with only one officer being there? Even if it was just to look convincing.

And what was Officer Linda doing just sitting in their house for hours, especially after 10am passed? Were there other cops out searching the neighborhood? Why did she not search the house alongside John? (given she said she was suspicious of him right away) and if John made such a commotion when he found the body, why did she not race to the basement before he had a chance to bring her upstairs?

Was Officer Linda hungover from Christmas day or just generally being a dolt?

^^ Based on the interview with her that is on youtube, I get the idea that at the time she was very young, inexperienced, and probably "not really cop material". I don't think she was necessarily inept, I just think the whole thing got out of control. If the Ramseys were in on the murder, surely they knew that the more people they could get into that house, the more confusion it would create (and defuse the incredible tension they must have felt, knowing the kind of act they'd have to put on all day long for the cops).

So apart from Officer Linda (who looks scary AF on YouTube) was there seriously no other police response to the kidnapping until it became a murder case? Was Linda fired BTW?

R242 she certainly was not young, that YouTube interview with Linda was just 2 years after the case, it says on the top right corner. She's about 40 there.

She was about 36 at the time of the killing. She resigned 2 years after the murder and eventually filed suit against the County government. I don't know what happened to the case, but her explanation of the claim sounds a little half-baked to me.

".. The ransom note contained specific instructions that the police and friends should NOT be contacted, but Patsy telephoned the police at 5:52 a.m. MST. She also called family and friends.."

This reminds me of "Ruthless People" where Danny Devito finds his detested wife Bette Midler has been kidnapped and he's warned she'll die if he contacts anyone. Next scene is the place crawling with police and reporters!

That was a funny scene r246.

"Bye bye, Barbara!"

R247 thank you for posting that! It's even better than I described!

Did Patsy ever explain why they very quickly ignored the threats of the random note?

I agree that it had to be one of Patsy, John, and Burke. It’s very likely that Patsy wrote the ransom note, meaning she knew who did it. If she or John was the killer, I think Patsy would have told someone while on her death bed. I think it was Burke and his mother went to her grave protecting him.

If the police agreed with John and Patsy -- or if they came to the conclusion that Burke did it on their own -- then it would explain them fucking up the crime scene, because the police would be in on the cover-up in order to save the boy's (and the family's) reputation.

If you came upon a scene where a 3 year old had picked up a gun and shot up the family, everyone, police included, would realize the kid wasn't at fault. He's just a kid.

Same with a 9 year old, really.

Wrong-headed because they should have known he'd need heavy-duty psychiatric treatment, but I'm not even sure you can make a family release a kid to state supervised therapy if they family doesn't agree to it. Going back to the 3 year old - you wouldn't take him away from the family. Hell, he wasn't even doing anything wrong because he didn't KNOW it was wrong to shoot and "kill" people - wouldn't even understand what death meant.

Expand that just a little, and the same could be said for a 9 year old. There's NOTHING to be done. It was basically an accident. There's no crime - and therefore, no crime scene.

R241, my understanding is that when Patsy first called the police, the BPD sent literally every officer they had on call, and in addition, called in everyone who was off for Christmas! Because of they holiday it was just a skeleton crew. This also caused them to lose evidence because it took quite some time to get the crime photographer there. So the initial patrolmen who first arrived first secured the perimeter, and it was soooooo early that there ground was dusted with a lite coat of frost and snow — and they noted no footprints which would have been apparent on the ground. No photograph exists to prove this, but it was in the patrolman’s notes.

Anyway, after the cops searched the house high and low for several hours, I believe at about 10am, they decided the best thing to do was convene at the station as more of their force showed up to brainstorm how best to handle the situation. And of course, because Linda has a vagina, and the “important” discussion was happening at the station, they left her at the house. The officers who searched the basement will never forgive themselves for missing the wine cellar is what I also remember (though numerous people said, it was literally impossible to know the room was there).

R230, what do you think the purpose of the note was? I realize you’re convinced Patsy wrote it (no, we don’t all agree on that), but what do you think the purpose of it actually was?

R250 you're full of shit and false speculation.

Is there testimony online of what P and J said about their movements from the time they woke up?

Did the police make John open his safe to see if the missing evidence was in there?

What was the garbage schedule? It was a Thursday. Did the garbage truck come and then they called the police?

The thing about the incest in the dictionary sounds unbelievable. That book is big and it's unlikely incest is at the top of a page that the corner would point at it.

Is it wrong of me to want to find out where Burke lives, following him into a restaurant, dressed as a cowgirl with a blonde wig, place a bowl milk and pineapple on his table, take out a piece and pop it in my mouth and run off giggling?

R253, to answer your questions....no, no testimony of what the Ramsey’s said to police on 12/26 because they never gave formal statements and the police did not separate them when they first questioned them — they were together when describing events to police so the police could never lock them into individual statements. You can however, read the transcripts, and you can also view video from their first formal interviews — given six months after the murder in May. You’ll find tons of video of Patsy, and very little of John, which was of course purposeful in my opinion.

No on the safe (if memory serves). Or maybe it was yes but that it was empty? Nothing of significance was in there. Shockingly, the police/DA allowed them to send family in shortly after the murder to remove fucking “sentimental” items. Part of the huge theory about John involves him staging and then UNstaging the basement. Several small pieces of glass were found by both police and Fleet that morning (and John!), but the majority of the glass was never recovered. When family came to gather up the “sentimental” items, one item John supposedly insisted MUST come to him were his golf clubs — which were stored in the basement. Many opine that he dumped the broken glass into his very expensive golf club bag. I could see the police not thinking to rip apart that bag, and the basement was a pigsty too, so the glass really could have been missed in that bag.

I can’t recall details on the garbage truck though I undoubtedly read it.

The incest/dictionary thing is actually quite true, and I know this because I had the same reaction as you. I spent a great deal of time trying to find an evidence photo to verify was sounded ludicrous to me, and visiting forums. I believe one of the officers did an Ask Me Anything on Reddit and he described it as the page being dog-eared directly to the word. It could still be a random thing for sure, but it’s more about it being part of an extremely strong circumstantial case.

[quote]Use that good southern common sense of yours

But John was born in Nebraska and grew up and went to college in Michigan. How many years did he live in Atlanta?

The ransom note says tomorrow but since it wasn't intended to be found until Dec 26th, that meant Dec 27th. So they had a long time to follow up on it.

As for Patsy calling the cops straight off? Well I would have, there's no reasonable way in the USA you're going to get anyone back alive so you might as well call the cops. In addition you are not going to walk into any back now or then and walk out with $118,000 in cash, let alone specific bills. You'd need the cops to arrange that. So the note itself is impossible to follow correctly, so why not call the cops?

The note actually sounds like it was dictated by John Ramsey to someone. Whoever killed her, it's clear the Ramseys know more than they are letting in on.

Ramsey was working rich but it was only around six million dollars for a total net worth at the time of the murder. Certainly they were well off but were far from being the super rich they are made out to be..

As for calling a lawyer, that is common among upper classes. I had a second job years back at a club full of wealthy people. I happened to be filling in on an overnight shift and a fire broke out. It was caused by a municipal power line surge. I called the fire department and the GM and like 15 seconds after the fire dept came the member of the club who served as its lawer showed up.

So yeah, rich people call lawyers straight up.

I told John trying to incorporate music and song into our little sunshine's routines was just a little too much.

And a pint-sized harlot with sassmouth is, of course, going to get slapped if she decides to sing "You Ain't Woman Enough (To Take My Man)."

[quote]because they never gave formal statements and the police did not separate them when they first questioned them — they were together when describing events to police so the police could never lock them into individual statements.

WTF?? That is the most elementary part of a police investigation - it's the first thing they're supposed to do. The incompetence of the Boulder PD really was staggering.

R256, the expression, used about John, was an inside joke among their friends. It’s one of the reasons the note could not have been written by an intruder.

r260

Maybe it was one of their friends. It could've been the company accountant. The nerdy gay one who hadn't come out yet, but was obsessed with JBR

Burke was the company accountant?

R259, the line of staggering missteps made by the BPD seems to go on ad infinitum. But even more egregious than the failure to separate the parents, to take separate statements, not treating the home as a crime scene, leaving the parents (at least one potential kidnapper/murderer?) alone with a single female police officer, failing to find the body, failing to have the home photographed prior to friends entering the house, contaminating the body much less everything else, letting the Ramsey’s remove personal items before they cleared the house, failing to get the Ramsey’s interrogated until six month later, sending the Ramsey legal team the list of interrogation questions *prior* to their interviews, on and on and on, the single greatest sin of that police force was the following.....ruling out John a week after the homicide a mere WEEK after the killing based on *his* legal team’s expert. How could they definitely rule out anyone in writing the note after just a week lol? The only nice move they pulled thanks to Steve Thomas is he literally tried to hold JB’s body as ransom to force the parents to return to CO and submit to interrogations.

All of the mumbo jumbo about experts ruling Patsy as the author came a) *after* John’s hired mercenary ruled John out and b) is completely subjective bullshite anyway. Because it’s “wordy” a woman therefore wrote it? Poppycock. How about a psychopathic pedophile who fucked up and killed his victim was shitting his pants and didn’t know how to self-edit? “Don’t try to grow a brain now John” in his best Dirty Harry voice? For everyone who can just tell that Patsy wrote it, here’s another take. Read the note as John writing to himself. You can actually hear him talking to himself in third person just like our President, trying to use his best “bad guy” impersonation. Fuck John Ramsey.

As just one example of the extent to which the evidence in this case has been / is being gone over by amateur sleuths (some of whom are apparently actual detectives and forensic specialists, just not actively on this case), take a look at some of the discussion on the reddit link below, which is discussing only the photos taken of JBR's bedroom and bathroom by the police. This discussion is from just 3 months ago (23 years after the crime happened). The *entire* case is being discussed with this level of detail on reddit.

^^You have to click the Comments button on that page to get to open up the full discussion of the evidence.

[quote]Can't we just call Jessica Fletcher and solve this thing already?

Pffffftt. That bitch is an amateur.

r266

Jessica only "solved" crimes because she committed them then framed someone else? Seriously why didn't anyone ever notice when she shows up, someone dies shortly after..

R264, I remember stumbling on the JonBenet Websleuths forum a few years ago. It was Autismville. People were obsessing over EVERY possible element of the case.

Websleuths was founded originally as a site dedicated solely to Jon-Benet

I want to know why Jon-Benet had false teeth

Jon-Benet is much prettier than that aging hulk next to her

Did the Ramseys ever increase security on their son after? I would assume if there really was a kidnapper, then John and Patsy would've been terrified Burke would be next so they would hire a bodyguard for him.

Burke means vagina in British slang

I know who did it and didn't tell.

New book coming this November allegedly based on new tips and information.

Don’t you think if it was Patsy she would have confessed while dying? And if it was John, how could she have stood staying married to him? It has to be Burke.

r275 "Unprecedented, Extensive Evidence Uncovers New Suspects." Sounds like it will be more "intruder" theory crap.

r276

Yes, she would have

They should revive the old DL thread "Famous JonBenets Throughout History"

Admittedly I don't actually speak French, but wouldn't it have made more sense to spell her name JeanBenét? Plus, it looks more feminine that way.

More feminine?! Fuck you!

JeanneBené

[quote] I want to know why Jon-Benet had false teeth

It's a pageant thing (for little girls). Kids lose their baby teeth. So the contestants use false teeth for the pageant, rather than have a front tooth missing or something like that.

^ That's so creepy. When you're giving dentures to a six-year-old, it's probably a sign that this beauty pageant lark has got out of hand.

^It’s called a flipper. They are quite popular with the pageant crowd.

Patsy killed her. She always used to refer to her as “that child” in interviews. Weirded me out. Who talks about their own murdered toddler like that??? Evil bitch did it for sure.

Datalounge has done some good work with this case over the years. Here's a thread for 2015 with various adaptations of Patsy's famous Christmas newsletter she sent out to family and friends..

r275, the author of the new book: Dylan Howard is an Australian entertainment journalist who is the Vice President and Chief Content Officer at American Media. He oversees Us Weekly, OK!, Star, In Touch, Life & Style, Closer, The National Enquirer and its U.K. edition, Globe, The National Examiner, and RadarOnline.com.

I think John was sexually frustrated by no sex with Patsy. JonBenet was a problem sleeper and the housekeeper noted John would watch a video with her to get her to sleep. He probably started fingering her to get off. Since they were leaving for vacation the next day, he figured this was his last night to have a chance to do this before they were away for a while.

Could JB have resisted and said she wasn't going on the trip or was going to tell someone and in a quick fit of dominance John smacked her head back against her headboard making her unconscious? He tells Patsy what happened (minus the sex assault) and tells her they will lose everything if he gets arrested for his fit of rage and they are too scared to call 911 since she is unconscious. Patsy realized JB would no longer be good for pageants with brain damage and didn't want to have John's incarceration be a stain on her future public image so she agreed to formulate a plan with him.

* A Swiss Army knife was found in the basement room where JonBenet's body was found.

* "Only Patsy could have put that knife there. I took it away from Burke (JonBenet's older brother) and hid it in a linen closet near JonBenet's bedroom. An intruder never would have found it. Patsy would have found it getting out clean sheets."

* The blanket wrapped around JonBenet's body had been left in the dryer. There was still a Barbie Doll nightgown clinging to the blanket, so it had to have come out of the dryer recently, she said. Only Patsy would have known it was in the dryer, she said.

Is there a favorite book about this case? Lawrence Schiller’s ‘Perfect Murder Perfect Town’ seems to have the most factual information.

Steve Thomas’s ‘JonBenet’ is gossipy and full of juicy tidbits. I got the feeling he absolutely loathed Patsy.

Someone above posted about how the ransom note sounded like it came from a Dirty Harry movie. I remember hearing somewhere that Die Hard had been playing on TV that night and it sounded like whoever wrote the note lifted a lot of it from that movie.

As I remember it, child beauty pageants weren't really known to the general public before this case, and a side effect of it was these pageants - and the whole culture around them - being exposed to the public at large and people being really turned off by it all. The makeup, costumes and sexualized behavior of the girls was unsettling and inappropriate to many people.

^This is true. It was a slow news week, and videos of a murdered child prancing around wearing a spangled costume and enormous plumes captured a lot attention

Who is Patty Ramsay?

Gordon’s sister.

Patsy was in hours(72) of turning the big 4-0! That’s hard for everyone, BUT, for a fading pageant tard that’s like a full on death sentence.

r296 well she did die before turning the big 5-0

Actually Burke has clarified some aspects which is interesting, it was his bat found close to the butler door. He was awake the morning of the 26th, he did own hi tech boots.

The pineapple is very suspicious. Definitely seems like Burke is lying about that. My guess is that Burke knows Jonbenet was awake when they got home from the Whites' party. The pineapple is proof of that, so when Burke sees it he has his weird "oh" moment. That doesn't necessarily mean Burke made the pineapple, or killed his sister. But it does indicate to me that he knows she was awake and eating pineapple the night before she was killed.

Throughout his interviews, Burke is outwardly cavalier and indifferent about Jonbenet's death. To me, that is a nine year old kid trying to appear tough, and it's also probably a kid who hasn't been able to fully process the trauma of his sister's murder. Then again, it could be the cold indifference of a killer. There's no definitive answer to behavioral questions like this.

R263 you're strawmanning. Language analysis is a valid science. Using earlier samples of Patsy's writing, it's been determined that she without a doubt is the author of the note. Among those who have come to this conclusion is the guy who was able to pinpoint Joel Klein as the author of Primary Colors.

Again, I can't knock down your theory, because none of us knows for sure at this picture my who did it. But it's VERY likely, almost certain, that Patsy wrote the note.

I don't remember which book it was but in one of them there's a report of the detective interviewing John. To throw him off a bit and see how frank he might be, he asked how big he is hard.

I'm not joking.

John said, "Well, I'm not King Kong but it's a pretty good size."

Jesus God in Heaven, please tell me none of that is true, r301!

Burke was a sissy kid. Look at him, he couldn't have taken JonBenet in a fight, even if she was half drugged, he'd have lost.

If he was on the Little Rascals he'd have been Waldo to JonBenet's Darla.

R302. I read the same thing. It was either in Steve Thomas’s book or the police transcripts released in paperback by the National Enquirer.

R300, I actually specifically referenced “statement analysis,” which for our purposes here, is frau-science. There are multitudes of websites out there professing to do legitimate analysis, but are instead, frau-ish nonsense. And it didn’t help when expert Donald Foster mucked the whole case up even further, way back when. Linguistic forensic analysis was not available anywhere near the level it is now, and to my knowledge, no assessment of the note has been done using current technology. The sites I’m referring to try to combine psychology with their analysis, and they are completely *ludicrous.*

Please tell me how it is certain that Patsy wrote the note? Beyond the fact that none of us like the bitch?

My theory is that Patsy got into an argument with JonBenet, lost control and hit her over the head. Patsy had been through a lot in the past few years due to her cancer treatment, which had probably impacted her mental health. John, the more cool-headed of the pair, persuaded her that they needed to prioritise keeping her out of prison for Burke's sake. They came up with a ridiculous cover story about a "foreign faction" kidnapping JonBenet and holding her for ransom. The plan was to dump her body in a ditch somewhere and hope that, when the police eventually found her, they would think the kidnappers had murdered her.

They thought that if the coroner found she had been killed by a blow to the head, the police would be likelier to suspect that she had been killed by a parent who had lost control. They thought that if they made the killing look ritualistic and sexually-motivated, it would seem more like the kind of crime a stranger would commit. So they garroted her and sexually assaulted her with the paintbrush.

Patsy someone who had broken into a house and needed to get out of there quickly, so she stupidly wrote an insanely long ransom note (possibly dictated by John). They then waited for an opportunity to put JonBenet's body in the car and drive it away to dump somewhere, but they couldn't work up the nerve. They kept putting it off, too afraid someone was going to see them. Eventually it was too late - they had no choice but to call the police. They were due to fly out to see John's older children early in the morning, and it would be very difficult to explain why they missed their plane (especially given that they would have no choice but to report JonBenet missing surely afterwards). So they called the police, hoping they would buy their bullshit story about someone breaking into their house, killing their daughter, and leaving her body there along with a ransom note saying she'd been kidnapped.

I have about as much hope for a resolution to this case as I do for the Madaleine McCann case. We'll never know the extent of the parents involvement.

R307 of course I think we all agree. But I will say, if the DA had *any* balls, he could bring this case!!! Not certain he could get a conviction, it would definitely entail some risk, but is an extraordinarily strong circumstantial case, and the odds are just as strong that they would win a conviction.

I was hopeful a few years ago when the new “pitbull” DA came on that he would do just that — especially after I saw that he even created a separate page just for information on this case for the public, along with information to receive tips too. But nope. Nothing. It truly astounds me that the People of the great state of Colorado tolerate this (continued) level of vile corruption and sissiness from their DA. Especially after that female DA fucked this case up too.

In the Law and Order episode dealing with this topic the mother did it.

What's so difficult about dumping a body? Lots of mothers and stepmothers do it.

R310 = Casey Anthony

r311

Yes she was despicable

A possibility that crossed my mind is:

Creep breaks in, kills Jonbenet, flees into the night.

Patsy finds the body, ASSUMES it was Burke (maybe he got out of bed at some point and she found evidence of that), and begins the cover up.

And I always figured, as horrible as it is to think about, that a pedo who wanted her enough that he'd commit murder would probably violate her more forcefully while he has his opportunity (instead of some weird halfhearted paintbrush molestation). But if you're going to rape her, you probably would like to do it somewhere a little safer for you than the girl's own house. So maybe he tried to kidnap her, and he hit her on the head when she screamed, but too hard, and he thought she was dead. If you're a sadistic child rapist you probably want the kid alive for a while, and at this point you might just abandon the mission and get out of dodge.

But I mean...I still think it was Burke.

[313] I agree about Burke, I think he has Asperger's and whapped his sister on the head in a sudden fit of anger for something she did, leaving her mortally wounded (the blow to the head did not kill her, but she would have died from it). The intruder version is way too contrived to possibly be true. The *only* thing that lends credence to the idea of an intruder is the Note. It served its purpose perfectly (almost unbelievably), to divert suspicion. Imagine what would have happened if there had been no Note. Look at the police "walk-through" video of the house made that first night - the house is an unbelievable rat's nest of clutter and debris. No one could have made their way through that place in the night without waking up everyone in the house, it's ridiculous. The Note is pristine, it took someone close to an hour to write it, *inside the house*. Think a burglar / kidnapper / rapist would do something like that? I don't.

Now we know - it was Patty, Patsy's evil twin cousin. Just like the Patty Duke show! What a wild coincidence!!

What I can't get past is, if both parents knew who killed her, why even report that quickly that Jonbenet was missing? If they were trying to cover the whole thing up, why not skip town?

Weren't they scheduled to leave in a private plane?

^^Just today, R316, someone on reddit posted a very interesting idea that the 911 call was made by PR way earlier than should have happened, and that her own words on the call show that she was slipping up. It's worth taking a look at, I think it makes a lot of sense. (You have to open up the Comments section)

R317, interesting. I just don't know why they wouldn't just get out of town, with the body.

People on that thread say that PR doesn't sound like a distraught mother. I would disagree with that. I think she does sound distraught but there's something in her voice that sounds like she's being forced to make the call and there's resentment in her voice.

I agree, it's upset, but it's a *very* weird kind of upset, almost deranged and suspicious. The fact that they didn't bundle the body onto the plane and leave indicates ...whew...that Burke didn't know what had happened ?, or that the 911 call fucked up the plan that JR had in mind?, I don't know. The Note is the linchpin in the case, without it, everything else changes - R317.

[quote] What I can't get past is, if both parents knew who killed her, why even report that quickly that Jonbenet was missing? If they were trying to cover the whole thing up, why not skip town?

Because one of them did it and they wanted to get away with it - so they made up a story that somebody outside the family did it.

Don't you think someone, somewhere, would notice that Jon Benet was missing (assuming they just didn't report it) - then it would be obvious that it was a family member that did it. With the report that she was kidnapped (or a failed attempt or whatever) along with a ransom note, they figured they'd get away with it. And lo and behold, they did get away with it. (which they wouldn't if they'd just hauled the body off somewhere else and dumped her)

R320 that's not really the point. The point is why did they call so early? They didn't know they would get away with it because the police would be inept. They could have easily skipped town, pretended they went along with the ransom note and later on down the road gone with a kidnapping scenario. And there's no telling that they wouldn't have gotten away with dumping her somewhere else, as there was no telling they'd get away with it the way it did go down. What they would have been guaranteed was more time.

R321, it’s not always easy to get a body out of the house and dump it somewhere. The Ramseys had a gate around their place; opening that might have made noise; it might have been seen. Neighbors might also have noticed a car leaving during the night only to return hours later. They were taking a big chance either way.

I disagree, R322. I think they could easily have done it. I'm not talking about disposing of a body and comiong back. They were scheduled to leave that morning on a flight, a private one. Considering the people they seem to be, I'm just surprised the parents didn't put her in a suitcase and leave CO.

They were not as rich as many were led to believe...they were scheduled to be going to MN for *one day* only, then on some kind of cruise later that weekend, in FL. John Ramsey was a big fan of detective fiction, and I am willing to bet he knew that if t(he)y put the body in a car trunk or on the (private) plane that bloodhounds could and would alert to it. He had a REAL problem on his hands. They invited 5 people to come over to the house and help contaminate the crime scene (very effectively too). The Reddit thread above speculates that PR called 911 BEFORE they did that, rather than afterwards as JR wanted her to do, and therefore brought the cops into the house before JR was through with the preparation. I think there's something to that. I do agree he wanted to try to dispose of the body before it was found in the house, but I think he couldn't figure out a safe way to do it. -R317

The house was very big, but it was also VERY close to the neighboring houses, as you can see on google maps. The lot is pretty small for a house as big as that one is. The neighbors were close.

There were options...

R321, you are asking the most logical question, and it is always brushed aside. The killer left a ransom note, and clearly, at its most base level, the purpose of the note was to first and foremost, disguise someone’s identity.

Second, the assailant knew JB was already dead. Therefore, the purpose of the note wasn’t limited to simply disguising identity, but also to buying time because the note repeatedly tries to dissuade the reader from calling the police, the family needs to withdraw large sums of money (which takes time), and the writer says to wait for another phone call “tomorrow” which could be the 26th, but it could have been the 27th, no? The writer was trying to buy time.

If you deduce the purpose of the note, then you understand that the note could only have been written by the killer. The killer would not call the police because the killer had a body to hide. Therefore, Patsy is not the killer. It really is that simple, IMHO.

I never heard about the house being cluttered and messy. What was wrong with the Ramsey's housekeeper?

^^^ You're right, wtf was happening with that maid? They had had a big party 2 nights before. Look at the yt video, the house is a claustrophobic pig-sty. R317.

^Housekeeoer, Linda Hoffman-Pugh hadn’t worked since December 23. She repirted that every Monday when she cane in, she!:’d have to wipe peanut butter off the kitchen counters.

I told John that I wanted to go on a cruise over the holidays, but he wouldn’t hear of it.

So, I went with Plan B

Patsy was the 90s equivalent of Lindy Chamberlain! She was innocent too!

Patsy was the 90s equivalent of Lindy Chamberlain! She was innocent too!

Why would Patsy include all those explicit warnings about what would happen if they called the police in the note and then go ahead and call the police and friends? That opened her up to questions.

Why would Patsy include all those explicit warnings about what would happen if they called the police in the note and then go ahead and call the police and friends? That opened her up to questions.

She wasn't known for her IQ.

True r336, but your comment still doesn’t address the riddle. It makes no sense that she wrote that note *and* called the police.

Maybe Patsy knew that many people who have been warned in ransom notes not to call the police do indeed call the police, and probably should do so. Maybe Patsy knew that most people know criminals are unlikely to be able to monitor your phone to know whether you've called friends and/or police and it's just a standard thing people put in ransom notes, being blustery - as psychopaths tend to be - whether they can back up their bluster or not.

Patsy seemed to have shades of Sybil Dorsett in her makeup.

What was John and Patsy's reputation around Boulder? Did people like them, think they were strange, etc.?

r340 they had friends and acquaintances, but I think some people thought they were a bit odd.

I’d say killing one of your kids would classify as odd.

Did the people in Boulder feel uncomfortable that Jon Benet was displayed as a whore?

Yes and no r343. I think just those in the inner circle understood the pageants, the hair dye, the outfits, etc. Fleet White’s wife (Patricia too I believe?) trying to steer her away from pageants without being rude. She gave her a copy of Reviving Ophelia. Patsy ignored all of that, she wouldn’t even entertain that pageants are not good for girls.

Patsy was very shallow, and not the brightest bulb in the lamp.

Patsy was a big Carly Simon fan.

A new challenger approaches!

Imagine if they actually discovered someone else did it and neither Patsy or John or Burke had anything to do with any of it. Heads would explode.

That would be similar to finding out Adnan had nothing to do with Hae's death

Nobody would believe it, regardless, r348.

Exactly, R349.

Did people believe for years that Lindy Chamberlain killed her daughter, until incontrovertible new evidence came to light? Stranger things happen! I do agree though it's much too late now to every get a solution here.

Did people believe for years that Lindy Chamberlain killed her daughter, until incontrovertible new evidence came to light? Stranger things happen! I do agree though it's much too late now to every get a solution here.

Obviously this guy is a nut. There are a lot of nuts in the world.

The parents and Burke did it.

r352, it's not too late. I emailed Boulder police to use the same DNA matching research they used to catch the Golden State Killer on the DNA found on JB. Time will tell...

I hope the force has improved a lot since 1996!

R354 I imagine they NEVER thought of that! You crazy sleuth!

R356, you beat me to it.

[quote]People on that thread say that PR doesn't sound like a distraught mother

That's in comparison to how distraught she was, FOR REELZ, when JB came in first runner up. She had to be restrained. And JB was went apeshit on her opponent.

[quote]that's not really the point. The point is why did they call so early?

I can't think of one person with an IQ above 1 that wouldn't immediately call the cops if there was a kidnapping. You have no chance of getting the victim back on your own.

r323

I agree, they could've taken her out via the garage completely unseen.

[quote]Patsy was very shallow, and not the brightest bulb in the lamp.

she was quite intelligent, whether she had common sense or used that intelligence widely is another thing.

r351

yes, I agree it was the Lindbergh baby that did it.

R359 and that's the point of what doesn't make sense. If they were involved as I believe they were, why did they call so early?

R9 When she was murdered back in the 90s, everyone thought John did it.

R363 I always assumed it was emotional exhaustion that caused the timing of the 911 call. It had been a long night and once the ransom note was written. Maybe they knew that police shifts change over at 6 AM and that the lowest level of employee would be working the graveyard shift on Christmas night. The more inept and inexperienced the responding officer is the better.

The ransom note was written as a diversion, so they wouldn't look in the house right away but contaminate it so the evidence, if any wouldn't be of much use.

I think the Note was written so as to give John an opportunity to leave the house carrying a suitcase (which would have contained the body), on his way to the bank "to get the money." I think Patsy was overwrought from what had been going on all night and called the cops before John had intended to have them show up. John would have removed the body, if the plan had worked, and left it someplace far from the house for the cops to find, and the house would have been contaminated with all kinds of fingerprints in the meantime (the Ramseys had had a Xmas party in their house on the 23rd, so there would have been fingerprints of many people all over the place anyway). Patsy's call detoured all of that. But they still got away with the murder, incredibly. I think Burke hit her with something in a fit of rage, the parents thought she was dead and staged the rest to make it look like some kind of outsider did it.

[quote]I think Burke hit her with something in a fit of rage, the parents thought she was dead and staged the rest

If they thought she was dead, what would be the point of garroting her, which was the cause of death?

Maybe they (John) realized she wasn't dead while they were working out what to do...the coroner indicated she had been alive for up to 2 hours after the blow to the head, before she was strangled. This was based on the level of swelling seen in the brain. That conclusion is not incontrovertible, but the coroner seemed not to doubt what he reported. The entire event is admittedly weird, and there are problems with every scenario I've considered. But I see NO independent evidence that an outsider entered that house that night, aside from the Note, which seems completely faked to me... How did the "intruder" know that the family dog was not in the house that night? How is it that no one expressed any concern about the fact that the "kidnappers" did not call at 10 a.m. like they were supposed to, according to the Note? - NO ONE mentioned it (because the Ramseys knew full well there WERE no kidnappers), etc. -R367

Where was the family dog? I've not heard of this.

I don't know for sure, but his name was Jacques and I have read that he was not in the house that night. The Ramseys were supposed to fly to MN early the next morning, and were then coming back to Denver and going on a cruise from Florida that weekend, and so I guess it's likely they put the dog in a kennel for the holidays. It's discussed over on the Reddit threads about this crime (which are amazingly detailed). -R367

Just adding a bit of info that I remember. I lived in Atlanta at the time of the murder near the home in Dunwoody where the Ramsey's lived prior to moving to Colorado. They brought her back for her funeral service at Peachtree Presbyterian church in Buckhead. I believe Jon Benet was buried at the church cemetary near Atlanta.

She's buried in a cemetery in Marietta, northern suburb of Atlanta.

It was odd the Patsy called 911 instead of John. He would have been so much more calm.

Does anyone else like the comedy podcast MY FAVORITE MURDER?

They discuss the case at the 17:00 mark:

R370 The Ramsey family dog was staying, I believe with the Barnes’ who lived across the street

I seem to recall reading a quote from Patsy’s mother, Nedra Paugh, saying that whoever killed JonBenet knew the family dog would not be in the house

JonBenet with her dog, Jacques.

Interesting photo...

Yes, R364, if they had been trying to communicate information or demand help, they would have had John call. But they didn't, because that's not what they wanted. They wanted the police to believe that the fake ransom note was real. So they had Patsy call so she could be vulnerable and inspire sympathy.

I love "My Favorite Murder!" Georgia and Karen are hilarious.

R378 : Even MORE interesting photo. Burke worked up with Les Lipsticques:

Jacque did not look happy in r377.

Has his alibi been throughly checked?

Or r379, the two of them were on separate floors, and Patsy decided to call by herself. Do you know there is an A&E interview where Patsy says that she decided to call, but from then on she says “wel decided to call? There is more than one way to interpret that call. But writing that note AND calling while the body was in the house do not make sense.

Burke was so prissy looking. If he had been born in the 30s, Alfalfa, Spanky, Buckwheat and even Porky, would have kicked his sissy looking ass. I can't even imagine what Butch and Woim would've done to him.

Move on, tampon!

R383 - one of the most damning things about the likely involvement of the Ramseys in this crime is the way that their versions of what happened that morning changed pretty significantly with the re-tellings. The greatest failing of the Boulder cops, it seems, was in not isolating the 2 parents on the day this happened and getting a statement from both of them about it, without the other one being present.

I still say that everything's explained if the cops were in on the coverup as well. Why? Because they knew Burke did it - either because they were told by the parents or they just figured it out.

In which case, it would make sense they'd botch the case. They weren't trying to make one. They were trying to avoid making one, in deference to the nice upper middle class family who's rep would be ruined, not to mention the little boy's.

* WHOSE rep would be ruined...

Even the most amateur Jessica Fletcher would know to secure the crime scene. Meanwhile John and his sidekick are doing investigate work based on Linda Arndt's directions. "Let's search the house. Top to bottom!" And Patsy is in the sun room praying to Jesus. "Find my child, find my child"

I blame most of this on Linda.

R 386 The word from police chief, John Eller, was that the Ramseys were to be treated as suspects not victims.

I read that in Lawrence Schiller’s ‘Perfect Murder Perfect Town’

Victims not suspects

Yes, the entire police force was in on it. They all said, "Let's just cover this up and hope no one calls us out on it."

Shhhh, r392.

If you let that cat out of the bag, bodies are going to start turning up everywhere.

R363 They reported it as late as they could.

The family was scheduled to fly on John’s private jet to Michigan at 7 AM, so 530 was the latest that they could possibly claim to have awoken in time for the flight and then find the ransom note.

[quote]r380 I love "My Favorite Murder!" Georgia and Karen are hilarious.

My favorite episode is where they discuss the Galapagos Affair HERE, at the [bold]48:00[/bold] mark.

I cue up some of their shows to fall asleep to them, sometimes : )

R394, no the latest they could have called was after they had already left the crime scene with the body and then claimed they were following orders to help save their kidnapped daughter!!!

When you wake up and find your 9 year old has killed (or nearly killed) your 6 year old - you tend to panic.

Have a heart!

[quote]I cue up some of their shows to fall asleep to them, sometimes : )

Are you crazy?! Are you trying to give yourself nightmares?

I hope you’re not married because your poor husband must get beat to hell with all the flailing you must be doing in bed. :-)

Patsy Heaton would be like Julia Louis-Dreyfus if she had a sense of humor, 3 big hit shows, 6 Emmys, a lovable personality, & a nonpunchable face!

My Favorite Murder is fun and I doubt it would induce nightmares for anyone... mainly because those bitches barely get half their stories right and get even less of the facts right!

The murders they've covered on My Favorite Murder that I'm familiar with do have the facts right. I really just listen because they're both hilarious in conversation.

Few and far between, R401. That's why they have corrections corner! But I love listening to them. I also love how Karen sort of low key hates Georgia.

I was just playing, r400.

Hell, I fall asleep to Forensic Files every night.

Ladies, you are derailing a juicy thread. Please start a thread called “Forensic Files is my Lunesta.”

@0:36 "Her ambition is to marry someone just like her dad"

Oh dear...

[quote]Patsy seemed to have shades of Sybil Dorsett in her makeup.

No Sybil was found out to be a liar before she died.

Sorry, r404.

But right now this thread is deader than Cameron Boyce.

Yes I know r407. I just enjoy pushing these to exhaustion, we haven’t done one this long in quite some time, so I enjoyed it immensely. 😜

You're ruining this thread, R408!!!!

Oh shut up r409. Run along.

r409, feel free to block me — you will see that I happen to be quite versed in this case, so I’ve added ten shit tons of facts to this thread, as have several other posters. Go troll on a Luke Evans thread, little knome.

Go play in traffic, R410!

R411, KNOME? Ha.

R411, You're DERAILING this thread!!!

Foreign Faction is great, extremely informative - many thanks to the Datalounger who recommended it.

Burke did the initial injury and then Patsy and John covered it up, with Patsy taking the lead by staging the body and writing a ransom note. John may have gone along with it because he had already lost a daughter five years before. Or because possibly he may have been molesting JonBenet (it’s unclear who is responsible for that, but statistically he is the most likely).

the symbionese liberation army was described by themselves as a small foreign faction.

for some strange reason, the "men" on this board are stuck in a time warp! it's quite disturbing actually. i'm going to invite my psychologist to visit this thread for insight into this strange behavior.

most say her icky bro did it......

if he dint, yep the nutjob mom

r417 is posting to this thread and has the "balls" to talk about nut jobs! lmao

R416, can you invite your second grade English teacher also? The one who taught capital letters.

Patsy woke up and heard noises down the hall. John wasn't in bed with her. She picked up a golf club and walked down the hallway. When she reached JonBenet's room, she was horrified by the picture of John molesting their daughter. She didn't say a word as she picked up the golf club and began to swing at John. But John saw her out of the corner of his eye and ducked, while the golf club smashed into JonBenet's face.

What is confusing is that they prolly woke up early on Christmas morning and if JB died at midnight the parents would have been awake for so long staging and then having police come. I’ve been awake for 24 hours and my head got so heavy that I had to sleep because I was falling asleep while driving.

The idea that Burke did the initial blow and then the parents finished it off to protect him just never makes sense to me. Im not saying it's not possible, Im just saying that to me, I can't wrap my head around why they would "finish the job," and in such a brutal way when they could have taken her to the hospital and saved her. The idea that they were protecting Burke also doesn't make sense since he was 10, nothing was going to happen to him for "accidentally" hitting his sister.

Apparently the initial head injury was fatal but didn’t kill JonBenet right away. Former Boulder police chief Mark Beckner speculated that JonBenet may have started making death rattles, which is when the garotte was applied.

“We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad.”

R413 is off her meds and had a fight with her mommy yesterday, so don’t take her acting out personally.

R416, welcome to DL.

R420, except for the tiny detail the JB was hit directly on the top of her head by a cylindrical object, and it was such a forceful, precise blow that it would have felled a 300 lb man.

R422, users of logic aren’t welcome here, hisssssss!!! Of course you are indeed accurate, why oh why oh why would a parent (or *two* parents) a) not call the police after finding their injured child, and b) finish murdering their child, and c) stage a violent sexual assault including inserting an object into their 6 year old’s vagina? It makes absolutely no sense at all. Most interestingly, while her head wound was incredible in its size and severity, she had almost no blood — so if the parents stumbled upon an accident/injury caused by Burke, they *literally* would not have understood why she was unconscious. How do I know thus? Because Detective Linda Arndt, who literally knelt alongside the body until police arrived, and saw John bring the body up from the basement, even she had ZERO idea that JB had a head injury until the autopsy when her scalp was removed!!! She was absolutely floored and horrified to see the skull injury — no one could see it before the autopsy. You could *not* see that head injury and there was no blood! So covering up a sibling caused injury makes no sense.

R423, if you dig deeper into the staging of the scene, it’s quite fascinating. For example, one misconception put out by John’s camp is that the garrote was clearly the work of a master killer, and that her bindings were highly elaborate and that she had been bound for hours. In fact, the garrote was not a true garrote and was clearly an amateur attempt at a “real” garrote. The bindings were a basic naval knot (the name of it escapes my memory), and the bindings were completely loose around her wrists — they literally had never been pulled tight. It was just meant to *look* like she had been bound, but the autopsy proved otherwise.

More interesting tidbits.....the basement floor in front of the washer tested positive for JB’s urine, which means she likely released her bladder after being attacked....in the basement. So she was in the basement even though both parents claim they put her to bed.

My scenario includes John encouraging Patsy to take an Ambien so she could get a good nights sleep because they had such a god-awful early morning flight. So he has Patsy take an Ambien (or even Benadryl). He tells Patsy he’ll put the kids to bed — both parents told this part of the story the same. Once Patsy is asleep, he lures JB to the basement, promising her a special present if she was extra good for him. Burke was probably on his new Nintendo like a zombie while this was happening on the first floor. After John gets them a snack and while Burke is occupied, they go to the basement. Remember, the MB is on the top floor. Detectives said the old house creaked like a mother, so John knew he would always hear if Patsy came down to interrupt their basement session. My guess is this had happened numerous times. On this night, however, he actually hurt JB during digital penetration — there was vaginal bleeding. JB has a fit, tells him she’s going to tell mommy because she was a smart little thing, and she knew that would piss him off. Well, it did. Also, to make sure Patsy didn’t wake up and wonder what was up, he left all the lights off and just used his Maglite. Remember, neighbors reported seeing a flashlight moving about in the kitchen in the middle of the night.

So, JB says she’ll tell, John flips out and smacks her as hard as he possibly can in a blind rage — he believes she deserves this. And then the cover-up begins.....and the cover-up is even more fascinating, but I’ve akready gone TL lol.

r424 I believe your scenario is what happened. It was John who did it.

I don't think it was John. The ranson note screams Patsy to me. That means she either killed Jonbenet or she's covering for the person who did. I can't really see her protecting John and staying married to him for all those years. Burke is the only person she would do that for. I tend to think Burke was responsible not only for the blow to the head but also the strangling and the molestation.

I'm surprised that CBS had the gall to air that show accusing him though. Even though they were gentle about it and went with the theory that it was accidental. Whoever greenlit that must have been a true believer, because it's pretty intense to publicly accuse a little boy of killing his sister before an audience of millions. I have to feel sorry for him if he really didn't do it though...first his sister was killed in their home when he was a kid, presumably by one of his parents, and now the whole world thinks he's a monster. That would suck...

[quote] ...JonBenet may have started making death rattles, which is when the garrote was applied.

I love how you say the "garrote was applied". That sounds ladylike and upper classy

R424, darling, you're still missing the parody of your post at R404.

HA! R428, I *do* see the irony of all of it for sure, haha! How can one discuss unsolved crimes and Forensic Files, and not reek of frau-websleuthing?? It’s impossible! Hence my huge posting on the Soft-Butch Sous Chef case as well. My spirit animal is a panda named Hexica Fletcher. In my previous life, they called me “Fancy Drew.”

And now I’m off the rails again. I’ll see myself out, it was great chatting again.

John always used 'percent' type analogies when he talks.

I think the note was dictated to Patsy (at least in part), by John.

R430, do you know that an online blogger (a rare bird, he’s actually brilliant) was in fact able to perfectly recreate the note as a Word doc? Meaning whomever wrote the note traced the first half of it on a computer screen — perfectly to the letter and spaces between words, the shape of the A’s. He figured out the margin settings to match the legal paid, the font (Courier) and it was an odd size maybe 11 or something. But he matched it to a T. Then, it looks like the writer started rushing and stopped doing the tracing. John worked in cyber security. And of course his computer left no trace of the document that was traced — very easy to tell the software to not auto save, no?

I somehow don’t envision Patsy having the chops to do all of that. Patsy was actually a very intelligent woman, but not tech savvy according to anyone who knew her. Her expertise was cake make-up, wigs, and sequins.

That’s a lot of “literally” r425. Jesus.

[quote]I’ve been awake for 24 hours and my head got so heavy that I had to sleep because I was falling asleep while driving.

Yeah but you didn't just murder, rape and disfigure your child. That would make a huge difference.