Holden Synder's Saddle

Darling!

Aaanddd....now I need a cigarette.

It's a close call, but I'm ultimately in the Dusty Donovan camp.

I always preferred Caleb.

The second Mike Kasnoff, for me!

Fun fact: Carter Oosterhouse, hot HGTV dude currently accused of being a sex pest, auditioned and was close to being cast as Mike Kasnoff. (Not sure if it was the first time, may have been the second.)

The little photo of Robert Tyler in R4's photo made me hard.

R5, here you go.....

I hate when people on DL say EVERYONE is gay, but I have heard rumors that Mark Collier (Mike Kasnoff II) was family. Any truth to that, or just wishful thinking?

Lucinda should have fucked Holden. That would have stopped that rodent daughter of hers from hooking up with Holden

Rodent daughter? LOL

I've heard that too, R9.

No knowledge for sure but ATWT has had a fair number of men who either were gay/bi or rumored to be over the years - Gregg Marx, Terry Lester, Michael Park, Ben Hendrickson, Scott Holmes.....I suppose Collier could be, too!

Marx, Lester and Hendrickson for sure. Park has had rumors, but I doubt it. Holmes, no way.

There has been several accounts of Park enjoying romps in adult bookstore arcades.

And Hendrickson and Holmes were supposed to have had an on again off again thing.

Greg Watkins, who played Evan Walsh. Doesn't look bad today considering the horrible boating accident he had in 1995 where he fell out of a boat and was badly mangled by the propeller.

Watkins in 1997, two years after the accident

Greg Watkins was adorable.

Watkins was cute and a good actor. Wasted as Danny Markel was because they didn't know how to write for them, or didn't write for anyone who wasn't a favorite.

Holden could ride me without a saddle.

Danny Markel was my favorite out of all of these guys, but I preferred him as Sam Fowler. It wasn't that ATWT didn't know how to write for him, R18. They didn't know how to write for him.

2. Scott De Freitas

3. Mark Collier

4. Michael Morrison (what did he have to kill himself over?)

5. Il Penduloso

r20 ^ I meant, "They didn't know how to write for anyone." ^

R21 Well, they really didn't write well for men, and this is ironic since even in later years, Hogan Sheffer was supposed to be butching up the show. But most of the men bled together on the show. That's also been true of all the shows once the "antihero" push took over, because then everyone was a bad boy or had some issue (like Dusty Donovan 2.0).

They should have written more for Il Penduloso. I'm sure close ups of the Dangling Dong would have sent ATWT to Number One again!

Early Liz Hubbard on The Doctors.

Damn, that story is outdated in some ways.....but in others, it's more forward in its discussions of workplace than some shows are today.

I always thought Van Hanzzzzzzzissssssss was a little too into Jon Hensley. He looked like he wanted Jon to pound his hole, not give him fatherly advice.

Sounds alright to me, r24.

They wanted to recast Scott De Freitas so bad, but every time the fans would hear about it about pitch a fit. They wanted a good looking, dynamic actor for that role and Scott was nice, but couldn't do good looking or dynamic. Kind of a shame. Could you imagine if Roger Howard was playing Andy, that would have been gold just for the scenes between Andy and John.

R26 = MADD

Yeah, DeFrietas and that pale white Paul were great when they were kids, but they both should have been recast earlier with strong actors. It took them a while to age Paul and Andy disappeared, sadly.

I read in SOD that Andy Kavovit's nickname was "Casper" because he was so white. Such a cute pocket twink. I just saw him in an old episode of "Criminal Minds," his last role.

As for Jon Hensley, he was a little bland for my taste. Brian Bloom was just too beautiful for Lily.

r28 = that Felicia woman. And I don't mean Gallant.

Brian Bloom was and is beautiful.

Grayson McCouch wasn't too bad either, to be honest.

Why did Lily have all the hot men on the show? It should have been called "As Lily's World Turns". Same thing later with Gwen.

[quote]Grayson McCouch wasn't too bad either.

He was amazing as Morgan Winthrop.

McCooch was hotter in his Dusty years - loved the shorter hair - but he just wasn't Dusty, that's all.

Funny thing is, he would have actually made a decent Paul Ryan.

Happy 84th birthday to Liz Hubbard!

Someone posted a fab photo of her in sunglasses but I can't seem to find it.

"McCooch was hotter in his Dusty years - loved the shorter hair - but he just wasn't Dusty, that's all."

I feel the problem there was the writing, not McCooch. Late in the show's run, he proved he could do tender and vulnerable when Dusty fell in love with Jen, brought her child into the world, and then held her as she died. (MARY!) It's really a shame that TPTB didn't just let Dusty be Dusty.

1/2 a WW for r34. For the Paul comment. Grayson was not hotter as Dusty than as Morgan.

All of the hot guys went nuts for plain jane, dull as dirt Lilly. Not only was she not that hot, she was always whining about something and dreary as hell. Jon Hensley in his early years was the hottest thing on daytime, IMO. I don't know if he aged well he just seem to disappear like a lot of soap actors do. I did read a while back that he and his wife (the second Emily) are divorced.

R32, I was so glad.

She took the heat off of me a little bit.

I can't stand Howarth; I DID love him as Todd in the beginning and picked up on the Manning surname, hoping the show would pick up on it and they did!

But. he. YELLS. in every scene.

[quote]It should have been called "As Lily's World Turns". Same thing later with Gwen.

As [bold]whose[/bold] world turns, r32?

Please.

I have stories.

As do I.

In my diaries.

I don't know what show this is you're all talking about, I've never heard of it. Bizarre!

Check the following scene out at 11:20. it's from Hensley's first year on the show; he isn't the best actor, BUT he knows how to stand there and know he's pushing every last button in Lily's teenage body.

Soaps don't do fantasy scenes like this anymore; too bad, they let the actors cut loose and reveal information.

I think my favorite line in that fantasy is "Is she thinking about YOUUUUU - with your shirt off! In the rain!"

Holden was much more alive those days.

Is that pre-thirtysomething Mel Harris in the Tide commercial at 13:27?

R48, yes and with hunky Randy from TEXAS IIRC

Oh, thanks r49. I wanted to know who that was. I never saw Texas.

Is this Randy, R49?

I miss Barbara and James the most of all.

R51, yeah, that's Randy Hamilton who played Rikki Dekker.

or Rikki Hamilton who played Randy Decker...the first one is right, I think.

he was THE HUNK of Texas; ok, actor. He did a lot of little stuff up until the late 90, never got the big break post Texas.

Born in 1951 so he's mid 60s now.

When Texas re did its opening credits after Beverlee (who had the last shot), they put a shot of a shirtless Randy in there. It goes way too fast. he had a rocking body, as I recall. Texas had the unenviable time slot opposite GH in its heyday and GL during the glorious Marland years so it never stood a chance.

Link to credits.

[quote] 1/2 a WW for [R34].

You gave me 1/4 a WW recently. How very particular of you to assign these specific (and frugal) WW awards.

OMG that's Sara Ramirez

Didn’t Holden once loose half his brain in an accident?

Maryland should have had Holden return with his brain injury and completely changed his personality, like Jason on GH. Maybe he could have fucked Lucinda or Neal or something. Lily and the rest of the Snyders acted like such judgmental assholes toward Lucinda during that Iva/Aaron storyline.

Some might say Holden always had half a brain.

Did he ever fuck Hanziss after he divorced Kelly Megnihan?

R57 He kinda tried to do that in the beginning but I think either CBS or P&G pushed him to take him back to "old" Holden.

"I think my favorite line in that fantasy is 'Is she thinking about YOUUUUU - with your shirt off! In the rain!'"

You just know La Hubbard ad-libbed that! God, I love her!

R56, here's what Hubbard told one of the soap sites after she and other ATWT cast members were on The Talk last year.

Hubbard: [italic] So many memories come back oddly to one’s mind. I remember going into the producer [back in the ’90s] and saying, “I’m about to do a scene where a doctor tells me they’ve taken half of Holden’s brain out.” Are you sure that you want to do this? I can say something else. Once it’s out as a fact, it’s out there. From then on, Holden only had half a brain. [/italic]

does anyone remember Another World's 25th anniversary shows from (gulp!) 1989?

A slew of Matthews (Alice, Russ, Pat) returned as did Iris' ex Robert Delaney and son Dennis.

Gwen Frame - re-written, which was odd since the rest of the history stuff was spot on; I think maybe another returnee didn't come through so Gwen had to take on the role of troublemaker, was also back.

We got Janice Frame and Steve Frame in ghost appearances, too.

I don't understand why TPTB didn't try to rejuvenate the Matthews clan given how great everyone looked.

I always felt AW tanked because it lost its history. By the time the show went off the air, the only characters from the 70s were Rachel and Amanda.

You look at the great endings GL gave its viewers: Phillip and Beth back together; Rick and Mindy together; Fletcher taking Alex on a trip; Ed and Holly going on a cruise; Billy and Vanessa re-married; Blake and Frank were paired together. "Otalia" were allowed to hold hands even! Lots of 'little' moments, too; Lillian visiting Maureen's grave. Nola's farewell look to Company.

RIP, AW; you died long before you went off the air.

McCouch, McCooch... what's in a name?

Grayson's ample, thick, meaty cock - and how it fits into his musky, overstuffed jockstrap - is the only real matter of importance at hand.

[quote]Gwen Frame - re-written, which was odd since the rest of the history stuff was spot on; I think maybe another returnee didn't come through so Gwen had to take on the role of troublemaker, was also back.

I've heard that Willis Frame was intended to be the character to attack Rachel, but the actor (Leon Russom) declined. So the writers gave the plot point to his wife Gwen. Would have made a lot more sense if it was Willis.

Not that AW fans are not welcome here, but there's a whole AW thread, in case you didn't know.

I posted these last AW mentions over there, already, so others could comment.

This is a soap thread!

Yes, Einstein, it is.

Does anyone remember the episode in which Lucinda had a nightmare about what everyone in Oakdale [bold]really[/bold] thought about her? It took up all 46 minutes of the show, and the person whose resentment I found most memorable was Caleb's, played by Michael David Morrison at the time. His last episode was March 2, 1993, so it would have been sometime before then. Lily was played by Heather Rattray at the time, so it was sometime between late 1989 and early 1993. Anyone?

TIA.

Even as a kid, I hated hated Lily Walsh! Poor pitiful rich girl burdened and oppressed by her mothers wealth and burdened by all the hot boys in town treating here like she owns the only vagina in town. I never understood all of her consternation over who to fuck. Who would have turned Holden down? At some point she ran away from her cruel and awful life of luxury and hot boys beating her door down. Don't forget she married Derek Mason (young and beautiful Thomas Gibson).

Has anyone mentioned Tonio Reyes (Peter Boynton)?

Derek pinged off the charts for me.

His sister Trish was played by Mrs. Grant Aleksander.

She gave up acting and is a lawyer, but she was quite good as Derek's bitchy sister. Carl Hutchins was the dad.

Holden was nothing compared to Linc Lafferty, played by James Wlcek. DLers would know him as the blond guy who turns out to be gay in "Steel Magnolias".

Wlcek's a sweet heart; he works as a cop now in LA, occasionally doing some straight to DVD stuff.

he had the best pecs of anyone on soaps; Ryan's Hope kept him shirtless a lot.

[quote] he had the best pecs of anyone on soaps

You weren’t kidding, R75.

yummmm

Oh, yes.

I don't know if he's a Sherriff or a patrol officer out here in LA, but I've often thought about if I got pulled over (I live in LA) and it was him I'd say, "Linc! Ben! Don't give me a ticket! I've seen your pecs!"

But he might be a detective or something or at a desk.

Anyone remember the most ridiculously-named character...Hutch Hutchinson?

Speaking of Lily, does anyone have a link to the episode where there supposedly was an absurd amount of reaction shots as everyone at her birthday party wondered how she'd react to some crisis?

[quote]Anyone remember the most ridiculously-named character...Hutch Hutchinson?

His first name was Alexander. "Hutch" was short for "Hutchinson."

"Has anyone mentioned Tonio Reyes (Peter Boynton)?"

Such a great, underrated actor. Give me Tonio over James any day.

[quote] Speaking of Lily, does anyone have a link to the episode where there supposedly was an absurd amount of reaction shots as everyone at her birthday party wondered how she'd react to some crisis?

At that dreadful farm? Was when she found out Iva was her birth mother? I hated the dark and dingy looking farm.

Kathleen Widdoes has gained a few pounds!

Emma Snyder was great. Remember how irate she was when evil Carly told her that her homemade potatoes were lumpy?

Would Jon Hensley or James Wlcek appeal to any of DL resident trolls?

Hensley has softened down into a old lesbian. Such a tragedy.

Emma was a total downer, always judging others! I hate scolds like her. The best Emma scene was where she realizes John chose Lucinda over her fat ass.

At the very end though, she had to leave Oakdale to tend to Meg, who'd gone insane. I thought Kathleen W. deserved better than that after so many years on the show. Goutman really treated that actress like dirt, along with Eileen Fulton and Martha Byrne.

I hated the Snyders and that damned farm. We lost the Stewarts because of those Frame Family knockoffs.

[quote] Emma was a total downer, always judging others! I hate scolds like her. The best Emma scene was where she realizes John chose Lucinda over her fat ass.

Dr. John Dixon, mean nasty an unattractive, was quite the chick magnate.

The Stewarts were victims of stupid SORASSING - maybe the worst in soap history. Ellen's son Dan looked like her father, she was a great great grandmother at one point when she was barely into her 40's. They started writing Ellen as older than Nancy Hughes who was actually old enough to be her mother. I think they killed off both Dan and Paul to rectify this, but the damage was done.

[quote] but the damage was done.

Much like to Holden’s brain.

The scene at R76 had me laughing. I’d forgotten about mall hair. It was one of the great tragedies of 1980s American culture. The guys then were hotter than hot, but the girls with their mall were scary.

Happy days as Oakdale citizens enjoy a leisurely summer afternoon... Lily enjoys the company of several hunky guys by the old Snyder pond.

Larkin Malloy who died four days after his 62nd birthday in September, played for our team.

Hutch Hutchinson was played by such a bad actor. The fact that Parker Posey was his love interest didn't help any.

I can't find his real life name but he was so blah and bland that he had to be one of The Marland Boys. This clip apparently has a recast Linc in it....don't know if he was a temp or not.

Hutch looks borderline mentally disabled here.

"Duh?"

I wanted Holden and Aaron to tag team me.

I think Kathleen Widdoes developed some thyroid condition which led to the weight gain.

Emma walking in on John and Lucinda announcing herself as the 'honorable Mrs. John Dixon!' was SO Marland. They used this tag, I believe, on Capitol's last day. On Monday, the lineup switched from Y&R, ATWT, Capitol, GL to Y&R, B&B, ATWT, GL; imagine having your new show cradled between Y&R (Lester and Brenda still on) and ATWT (Marland's glory days).

It reminded me of little Evie walking in on Ben and Amanda, having just gotten married. Vanessa was such a bitch. She called Evie "Little Evie."

Yeah, R98, that was the big surprise intended to make sure everyone followed ATWT to 2 pm.

It still lost a big chunk of viewers in that next year, almost certainly because of the move.

R99, I think the show needed a BIG umbrella story e.g. Lucinda vs. Iva over Lily to carry it into 1988. Don't get me wrong; I'd watch Doug's LOVING over any soap today.

But once Lily knew her parentage things were different.

ATWT also had lost by end of 87, Scott Bryce, Frank Runyeon, Gregg Marx...I never saw such a well structured family unit then what Doug had tapped into at ATWT; you never didn't know Barbara was Kim's niece and Bob had a fondness for her too because he'd been wed to Jennifer; Kim's relationship with Betsy (step daughter) didn't go away when Kim became a Hughes.

There was nothing like Kim going to the grand jury or Dani going to the hospital and having immediate and extended family and friends all come together in the waiting room.

r93 Ugh. Damian.

by the end, Lily (Noelle Beck) was prettier than Damien (Paolo Seganti)

who knew that would ever happen

All of Oakdale was better looking than Damien. And Bay City and Springfield, too.

[quote] I can't find his real life name but he was so blah

R95 The actor who played "Hutch" is Judson Mills. He still has something of a career. Coincidentally, he just posted his latest head shot on his IG today.

Wow.

Judson committed the ultimate Hollywood sin.

It's kind of a shame that ATWT couldn't keep the 1:30 time slot for its entire run.

[quote]It's kind of a shame that ATWT couldn't keep the 1:30 time slot for its entire run.

Yes. Then I could have recorded half of it before Another World.

Marland didn't get rid of the Stewarts. By the time he got to the show Dee and Annie had been re-cast a number of times since they were aged to young heroines and written out. Henderson Forsythe wanted out to do other things, so the show had him off in Atlanta. Dan and Paul had both been killed off, leaving only Betsy and Ellen. Marland brought back Susan and Emily to bolster the dwindling Stewart family. And for the anniversary shows he brought back the last Dee and Annie (and her quads) and had Henderson Forsythe phone in.

They should have played "It's Raining Men" every time Lily appeared on screen.

Last year, I saw Judson Mills in the (god awful) touring production of THE BODYGUARD. He looked good and was pretty good even though the show was one of the worst things I've ever seen. (I went with a friend who had free tickets)

Oh yeah, Judson Mills was his name.

He must have Clayton Norcross Syndrome - he got hotter and better as an actor as he aged.

[quote] ATWT also had lost by end of 87, Scott Bryce, Frank Runyeon, Gregg Marx

I started watching in 86 and fell in love with the show, but wow, it was almost unrecognizable by 88 - those guys all gone, plus Martha and Julianne replaced, a new Margo.....just a lot of change.

And yet I still loved it, pretty much until the end of the Royce/Neal/Lucinda stuff.

R108, great points. Doug did write for the Stewarts. He included Dee and Annie in the anniversary. He fell in love with Marie Masters during her brief anniversary return and wrote her back into the show; then we got Kim/Bob/Susan. Great story. All the beats were taken.

Who knows if he'd have brought the Stewart/Ward quads as teens at some point, or some of them, but could even Doug have written for a boy named "Lowell"?

Yes, Doug did later kill off David but he gave him a proper send off, bringing back Dee, Annie and even little Colleen B (something?) who played Dani as a toddler and at this point she could handle a line or two, I think. The two tragic elements of David's funeral were no Lindsay Frost (we got a new new Betsy, who had all this history thrust upon her she didn't know) and, well, if you saw those scenes, Ellen's brillo pad hair was distracting at best.

Melanie Smith came back for the funeral and at that point I think she had already quit. I think. Not sure.

Doug wrote in Stewart Cushing and pregnant Marcy not being able to make it. Aren't fans sick of seeing little details like that slip through the cracks? I think Hank Elliot sent a telegram too, noting his appreciation of David's work in AIDS research.

I do know Julianne came back for Mac and Nancy's marriage in '89 and this is after she'd left. What does that say about how those actors felt about ATWT that they'd return for a show here and there, probably against their agents/handlers' wishes. (My guess is Lindsay never got word or had a conflict).

During Kim's trial storyline, he gave Ellen a line about how SHE was on trial for murder once. Lordy, shows just don't have this kind of respect for history anymore. (I take that back: Carlivati has done his homework at DAYS, bringing back Doug's Place; and GH brought Lesley back for Laura's wedding to Kevin.)

I love how some people will bend over backwards and walk over hot coals just to defend Doug Marland.

You mean will tell the simple truth when people blame Marland for things he had nothing to do with?

The biggest change for ATWT came when Marland came aboard and shifted the focus from Steve and Betsy more of an ensemble. I didn't like it at first, since the Steve/Betsy/Craig triangle was THE story for 2 years. But Marland was smart, slowly introducing one Snyder at a time, so we weren't overwhelmed with them.

I couldn't agree more, r116. The sad thing is that these days, a head writer wouldn't even be given the time to do that.

R114, defend him? from what?

R116, I think it was Jerry verDorn who said once that by the time Iva got invited to a party, the audience was saying...'yeah, she should go. she deserves to have some fun.'

Mostly, except for Iva going to work for Steve and Holden going to the stables, the Snyders didn't move off that farm until we got to know them.

[quote] I do know Julianne came back for Mac and Nancy's marriage in '89

Hmm....but Mary Ellen Whatserface was playing Frannie by then, no?

Thinking if this happened it had to have happened earlier? Or did the nuFrannie come later? I just remember nuFrannie being there at about the same time as nuLily and nuMargo.

R120, I was wrong...and right.

Julianne came for the wedding, but it was in 1988 - not '89.

If she started around Easter (Kim/Bob's wedding in '85 and left after her third year was up, she'd have been gone by June '88. I think this wedding was in the fall.

Go to 4:08 for Frannie's entrance.

That makes sense, R121.

I didn't wanna say you were wrong but I knew I was at least partly right! LOL

I didn't remember Julianne returning but that was a time I wasn't watching the show every day - I was doing a few months of two jobs so I could go back to college! (I know, that's a storyline no one cares about!)

A poster was talking earlier about all the focus being on Lily. There was a hilarious columnist at Soap Digest back in the day. He wrote that Christmas in Oakdale comes and goes in a day, Thanksgiving is here and gone, but no holiday in Oakdale lasts as long as Lily's birthday...

he went on to write that Lily's problems were of concern to people in other storylines.

"Momma, it's me Margo! I'm alone in Greece, thousands of miles from home, pregnant by a man who's not my husband. But tell me, I have to know. HOW IS LILY? IS SHE OKAY? ARE PEOPLE LYING TO HER?"

Hilarious.

SETH was the Snyder for me! God, I was closeted in high school-college when he was on and I was so in love with him. I admit--the whole reason I first fell for my first boyfriend was because he reminded me of Steve Bassett...tall, dark hair, quiet...

My favorite ATWT actress then (other than Julianne, of course!) was Melanie Smith. She was really underrated. Sexy and a good actress. It's a shame she didn't have a big post soap career.

Had a huge crush on Seth, too. Then and now.

So tall!

Is it true that Doug Marland left behind story plans for Andy Dixon and Mike Kasnoff to have an affair?

John Wesley Shipp liked Doug’s feet? Gross.

[quote]Is it true that Doug Marland left behind story plans for Andy Dixon and Mike Kasnoff to have an affair?

I remember an interview with Scott in SOW. When asked "What is on Andy's nighttable?", he responded by saying "His AA big book and a picture of Mike Kasnoff."

I would have eaten that storyline UP, but I've never heard a rumor of its existence, and someone relatively highly placed at P&GP told me in 1995 that he had never heard that Andy was supposed to be gay.

OMG LOVED Melanie Smith and soap mags did at the time wonder how so much went to Martha Bryne and her homeliness while Smith was smoking hot and from an ORIGINAL LEGACY FAMILY - oh I just said it. Bryne was a Marland creation and he obviously fantasied he was her (just like he did with Morgan on GL) and James Reilly did with Theresa on Passions. These were gay men who lived through these teenage ditzes. But Melanie Smith was Emily was perfect and Kelly M. Hensley was a piece of shit in compassion.

[quote]Martha Bryne

[quote]Martha Bryne

Oh, dear.

Oh, dear.

[quote]But Melanie Smith was Emily was perfect and Kelly M. Hensley was a piece of shit in compassion.

Truer words...

Lily was created pre-Marland. Lucy Deakins was the first Lily in 1984, Doug's stuff didn't appear until late 1985 (though he had actually started contributing long story months earlier). Lily and Lucinda are Tom King and Millee Taggart creations, I believe.

Mike Kasnoff was not a Marland creation. Mike came on in 1994 and Doug's stuff ran out in early 1993. So Marland had no intention of putting Mike and Andy together. (Put Id have paid to see it.)

Sometimes I think that the whole purpose of soaps in the 80s was to parade hunky men before our eyes, giving them the most implausible reasons to be shirtless. Place them in the orbit of powerful, wealthy and sometimes bitchy women and passable ingenues and you have loose reasons for dialogue and drama. Some of the hunks stayed too long, losing most if not all of their hunkiness not to mention their hair.

[quote]Doug's stuff ran out in early 1993.

Marland died on March 6, 1993. It would be extremely strange if his stories "ran out in early 1993." I have no idea if Mike or Carly were his creations, but he surely had story worked out for a year ahead.

The urban legend is that Carly Tenney was Marland's final creation, left behind in his long term story bible for 1995, although I find that hard to believe. Carly was nothing more than a Julie Wendell clone... Marland never repeated himself on the same show.

No, Carly wasn't Marland's.

It could be that Doug had Mike and Carly in his long-term. I could have been wrong on that up above. I know he had an outline for the death of Eduardo into the malpractice suit storyline, though I think it was sketchy and didn't really play out as he envisioned. But I had always heard that Mike and Carly were not his.

I remember reading an interview with some post-Marland ATWT writer, where they said that Carly was supposed to be the woman who could never keep the perfect job, perfect man or perfect family, and that she was meant to be that kind of catalyst character.

When Maura came back (after the early stint with Mike and Carly) and was put into the whole Jack/Craig/Hal scenario, I used to swear they were copying their ideas from the old Reva and the Lewis men story at GL.

[quote]Carly was nothing more than a Julie Wendell clone...

Why did they get rid of Little Miss Seattle? She was one of my favorites.

Stop being so stupid, people. Marland dis not write into 1995. Jesus. The next thing you fools will be saying is that Marland created Nuke in 2007z

I loved the way John Dixon would sass Julie. I wish she'd become his next wife, actually.

Wasn't Maura West first choice for Cassie on GL before Laura Wright?

[quote] Marland never repeated himself on the same show.

Writers repeat themselves all the time, especially in soap opera. Bill Bell had like 5 go to stories and he just told them over and over again in various forms. Marland was no different. Like all writers he had his go tos. I don't know if he created Carly or not, but to say that he would repeat himself on the same show is a little "bold".

he did not create Carly; he had died before she came on.

[quote]he did not create Carly

Then he went to heaven when he died.

and soaps died with him

Who do you think was the signature heroine in post-1980 ATWT: Betsy, Lily or Carly?

Lily by far. But with every man in Oakdale attracted to her, no woman could threaten her dominance.

Carly, a "heroine"?

Did Lily possess some kind of ultra-viscous, supernatural lubrication to attract these men, or was she just a really good listener?

Lily would do anal, that's why they all wanted to fuck her

Lily was a compliant beard.

While ATWT was never the "young persons" soap, I'm sure that Lily represented something that viewers her age could relate to. Which is why she had all the men and all the other characters were somehow focused on what was going on in her life.

Carly was never a heroine on the show until 2000s, in the 90s she was firmly established as a villainess.

I dunno. My grandma used to watch all the CBS soaps, and we kids didn’t pay attention at all. However, we became teens around the time Ming-Na Wen, etc. were on ATWT and Dusty, Lily, and Holden, and we all started watching. Same for Guiding Light and Philip, Beth, Rick, and Lujack... it all seemed to happen around the same time... new hot teen characters, teens home during the summer, three channels on TV... Of course we got sucked in. Lily never seemed that lame at first, really. It was as she got older that she seemed to suck more and more of the life out of the show. That’s how I remember it, anyhow.

r144, Maura auditioned for the Annie Dutton role on GL but lost out to her classmate Cynthia Watros.

R149, ahem!

[quote]Carly was never a heroine

Fixed.

Carly was heroin.

I'm perpetually baffled at the Carly hate...but don't try explaining it. I ADORED Maura from day one. I loved how Carly finally made Rosanna interesting. I loved how Carly wasn't buying into the Synder farm mythology. I loved that she went after Mike like a cat in heat. She was a goddess from the day she flicked her cig into Snyder Pond.

But continue with your Carly hate.

"Lily would do anal, that's why they all wanted to fuck her"

There was a hilarious post-coital scene with Holden and Rose (who he had "accidentally" fucked, thinking she was Lily), in which Holden said to Rose, "I didn't think you liked doing that," and Rose replied, "Hey, a girl can change her mind, can't she?"

R162, you like sick fucks. What more needs to be said?

R162 I've always loved Maura, and mostly loved Carly.

But she was overplayed a bit as a character. I understand that. It was even worse with Katie, because Terri Conn's charms and talents were and are limited, and what worked (Katie being a bit of an Eve Harrington bad girl) didn't work so well when Katie suddenly had The Golden Vagina that everyone had to have.

I was on board with GL more towards the end, but Chris Goutman should be publicly flogged for letting Martha Byrne get away. She gave her all to the show - literally taking pay cuts and the like to keep it going - and he threw her under the bus. It's no surprise that the show died not much after that. If they could do it to Martha, they no longer cared about the audience, either.

Goutman said that Lily’s pussy stunk.

r162, you don't get it. Carly wasn't hated during her first years on the show when she was a villainess. It was when they made her into a romantic heroine and shoved her and Jack down our throats the same way Guiding Light did with Josh and Reva... THAT was when the tide turned. Maura West truly became the Kim Zimmer of ATWT and it was grating.

[quote]Carly wasn't hated during her first years on the show when she was a villainess.

I hated her from moment one. She was unnecessary.

So how come Hillary B Smith hated Zenk?

People were talking on the AW thread about Colleen Zenk and Hillary Bailey Smith.

There was really only a conflict between them. They played adversaries and Hillary had issues with Colleen because Colleen and Mark Pinter left their spouses to be together. It got physical at one point. (HBS's pregnancy was only one reason why Margo was sent to Greece for a while after giving birth to Adam.)

I never heard anything about anyone else having issues, though both Colleen and Lisa Brown probably had some jealousy from the cast, as they were both personal friends of Doug Marland's and perhaps thus considered to have his attention or his ear on various topics.

from the AW thread:

[quote] Wait! Scott Holmes is gay? Never heard that one. He's been married to the same women for nearly 45 years, so I highly doubt that.

I guess because I've been involved in theater I just don't think much of the dichotomy. I know so, so, SO many men who were or are happily married to a woman and wouldn't necessarily be identified as gay - but not because they're in the closet, ashamed, internalized homophobia, etc.

There's something about actors.......I don't know that I can explain it better than that. But there is. If the stories about Michael Park are true, same thing.

I wouldn't even say "bisexual" because I don't think that describes it totally.

I was with a beautiful, shaggy haired Italian man when he was in his late 30s. Amazing actor, TV and film credits. I did crew or stage manager for a dozen shows he was in or directed, and always flirtatious for everyone. We had a mind meld on one show and ended up having a month long affairette with explosive sex. He wasn't remotely interested in me before or since, other than as a colleague.

I never am surprised when I hear these things, though. And to say they're gay, closeted, bi, fluid, kinda doesn't capture it.

go to 1:30 to see HBS and CZ's first scene since HBS came back from maternity leave.

classic Doug Marland; we don't see stuff like this anymore.

I worked at WT when Sheffer was HW for 2 years. It was an interesting environment and he was a fun (somewhat unpredictable man). There was this constant battle between the network and owners over just about everything. He didn't understand why they hired him to do X and then wanted him to do Y and he hated the restraints they put him. It was a good experience from my low level, but the entire production was very schizo.

I'm in heaven every time I watch those two go at it, R173.

I posted r173 in "What I miss about the '80s."

R174, I'm serious here; I've often wondered if a HW wants to tell story XYZ that they pitch instead story ABC; then the network can say 'no, we want something else' and then HW pitches story XYZ (which is what he/she wanted to do all along); the net feels they've shot down one idea, thus justifying their jobs, and then they think they're in charge.

SNL's writers did that a LOT in the early years, R177. "Well, if you won't let us do X, at least let us do Y!" That's how stuff like Lord and Lady Douchebag got past the censors. But TPTB eventually caught on and it wasn't so easy as time went by.

But what about Holden Snyder's smoldering look and clingy jeans?

What about them, R179?

CZP cheated on her then hubby with Pinter. They were both cheaters so why would she be shocked when Pintet cheated on her? She stupid.

R181, yes, I"m sure that crossed her mind after it was too late.

R174 I suspect we have some shared acquaintances.

Some people like Sheffer, some hate him, but like other HW's coming from the outside (like Harding Lemay) he did approach things differently and/or tried to toss out some of the old approaches. Some needed tossed, some did not.

Casiello is an asshole!

Tamara Tunie was also a friend of Doug.

I remember jacking to Greg Nelson in a speedo and shooting cum onto my headboard and the wall behind it.

I remember a soap magazine that had those same photos of Laurence Lau and also had John Wesley Shipp in a Speedo, too.

I came so many times to those photos in that magazine it was ridiculous.

My magazines with Lau and Shipp were always sticky. And cum stained.

Holden had a moist, inviting hole.

Poor Michael David Morrison.

I always thought his Caleb was hotter than Holden. Caleb acted like he would throw a mean fuck.

This episode also has the bonus of hot, hairy Casey. Yum!

OMG, that's Robert Tyler at 16:30 of R190's clip....in a swimsuit.

I think I just came, hands free.

Morrison made me cum buckets.

R191 That Barry Kaufmann may be why I started watching soap operas. I used to see Spence and Beau at the OYC during commercials on AW during the summer of '88. Between him and Matt Crane, I became hooked. I ended up with two VCRs when I went back to work in the fall.

I would sniff Holden's hairy hole.

I bet big brother Seth poked it once or twice.

I liked Neil Maffin as Beau....he would sing Cat Stevens and act all mooney over Robin Morse.

Was Robin Morse "Pam" in that video, R195?

I am the space like sound as the globe spins on the ATWT opening!

I have a hard time choosing between that and "You take me away," r197, as my favorite TV theme music. No later version on either show was as downright excellent.

Here's a long version for you, spacelike sound R197.

I think both Doug Marland and Robert Calhoun hated that 80s opening, though.

Supposedly, one of Marland's last actions before he died was to push for a new theme, and the one he'd recommended was the one they picked - a bit sedate but nice.

r200 Ugh. I think of that as the theme from the Carly years.

See, I think of THIS as the Carly years...

Back to the good years. Kim and Bob find Andy at the bar at the Mona Lisa with Julie and a martini. Extra cute waiter alert at 3:00.

Yeah, the Carly years were many, R202. Way TOO many.

This one has no Carly, but it has Katie, who was way worse in my opinion

Holy shit, I totally remember that pool side scene with Robert Tyler and Robin Morse. I was in college and taped ATWT and AMC every day (and sometimes AW). I think I kept that episode on tape for a long time...and I'm sure I wanked to it a few times.

I watched LOVING a little bit just for Robert Tyler, but it was never must-see for me. AMC was always "my" show--especially the 7 years that the sublime Kate Collins was on--but ATWT '86-'88 was my very close second. I lost a little interest once Julianne Moore, Gregg Marx, and HBS left, but I did keep watching until around 1991 when I had graduated and started working. I'd watch if I was home, but I didn't record it.

Yes R196

Is Mark Collier's ass scene available to view anywhere?

Or what was the date? I can buy DVDs of almost all soaps on some site.

The 1980s opening was the best in my opinion. Quick paced, nice "spacey" tune. Had an excitement to it.

I never liked the "slow" ones that came after that. In fact, I always thought that ATWT had the dullest openings that failed to capture any excitement.

Give me the first color opening. That was perfection.

I had forgotten how awful the last real opening was. Is this some sort of farmer soap?

Robert Tyler was heaven. One of the many hunks I blew a load to (pre porn days) on daytime TV.

I still can't believe how Goutman ruined the end of ATWT. Martha should have been brought back, Katie should have ended up with Simon (NOT Chris), James should have been seen sipping a drink on a Carribbean island, mumbling "Ill be back", the Snyders should have all returned for some temporary health crisis of Emma's, and Lisa should have been given more than two sentences in the last episode.

I have always been obsessed with soap openings and closings, especially closings. A few interesting points about ATWT, at some point in the 90s the switched listing the cast from seniority order to alpha order, but they kept 'Bob' at the top and gave the "and" credit to 'Lisa'. I wonder if that changed pissed off anyone. The only soaps who did cast by seniority was AW, Days, and ATWT.

ATWT end credits also stand out because of the position of the cast credits. They show a lot of crew credits before they get to the cast unlike other shows who usually list the cast after the writers, producers, and directors.

It went from bad to worse over the years. Julie > Carly >>Molly >>>Katie>>>>Janet. Cancelation ended up being a mercy.

[quote]The only soaps who did cast by seniority was AW, Days, and ATWT.

GH did too, at least in the 80s. Steve, Jesse, Lee etc. came first, and screen hogs Luke and Laura, etc. were listed further in.

R214 ATWT changed the credit crawl so MARTHA BRYNE could be listed first after Bob. TRUE story. This was when she came back for the soon to be dead Marland.

Worked at the show when Robert Tyler was there. On my first couple days he went out of his way to be really kind to me. Good guy.

I totally forgot about GH R215. Thanks for adding that. I had never heard that is why they changed the cast from seniority to alpha R217, very interesting. I can't believe they did that for one actress, she must have negotiated that in her new contract. Luckily ATWT never did the actors names in the open credits or the credits during the first act thing that ABC soaps and YR adopted in the 2000s.

[quote]The only soaps who did cast by seniority was AW ...

In the late 70s, weren't Wyndham and Watson listed ahead of Constance Ford, Beverly Penberthy and other actors who'd been there longer?

I hardly saw Katie. I dropped the show after "Lisa Sues Johnny Boy Dixon" resolved, picked it up again for a short while when Vicky and Jake moved to Oakdale, dropped it again until Luke came out, and only watched scenes with Luke, Noah, Reid, and Kiddo Kim. I simply would not watch anything infected by Carly, around whom the world turned for far too long.

I'm glad they changed the theme. The "space" theme is from a good show. The new ones were from a shit show. The only good new theme was the first one. The others had all the charm and quality of a slide show presentation at an automobile trade show. If they had kept the first new theme, they wouldn't have had the urge to replace each newer one every two years because of their essential crapulence.

It's all further proof P&G wanted to make its soap operas so shitty, no one would complain when they were canceled.

[quote]In the late 70s, weren't Wyndham and Watson listed ahead of Constance Ford, Beverly Penberthy and other actors who'd been there longer?

Yes, Rauch moved VW and DW to # 1 and #2 respectively, but the rest of the cast remained in seniority order. But there was a precedence for that. Earlier, Rauch had elevated Courtney, Reinholt, and Wyndham to #1, #2, and #3 in 1973 or 1974 out of seniority order, but everyone else remained in seniority order after those three. VW remained #1 for the remainder of the show's run.

Jon Hensley didn't live too far from my old job. He was so fine. Him and the guy who played Frank on THE GUIDING LIGHT!

R213 Killing off Reid Oliver was another mistake. He and Luke were smoking hot together and got each other. They should have just sent Noah to Hollywood with his cameras and let Luke/Reid end up together. Miserable ending for yet another gay character. In agreement about Katie - she and Chris were blah together and I would have loved to see Simon return for her.

Before the 10th anniversary ep of AW in May 74, Beverly Penberthy as Pat and Michael Ryan as John were billed 1-2, then Alice, Steve, Mary, Jim, Ada, Lenore, Rachel.

To the conversation about the order in the credits: I remember as a kid first getting into the ABC soaps with my sisters, we figured out GH went by seniority and I figured that's what all of them did. (We used to make a game of memorizing the order by seniority.)

But then I'd notice some of them (AMC) would go alphabetically. And they would sometimes through us a curve ball by shifting where they started the alphabetic credits. For instance, this closer from RH shows (1) contract players P - Z, (2) contract players A - O, (3) dayplayers.

It's always entertaining hearing the old voiceovers over the credits too, like David Hartman from GMA.

I am beginning to wonder whether it was actually something soap-related I had googled that first brought me to datalounge in 2013. I had always thought it was something like "Jake Gyllenhaal shirtless." But after reading all the closing credits posts, I'm no longer certain. When all my blonds died in the 1990s, I became the only person I know who cared about this stuff.

I can't remember, R228, were we able to post about soaps in 2013, or was it mostly posting in code so we wouldn't get caught and have the thread shut down?

No, r229, the [bold]A[/bold]nti-[bold]S[/bold]oap [bold]S[/bold]quad to [bold]H[/bold]ate [bold]O[/bold]pal, [bold]L[/bold]ucinda, and [bold]E[/bold]mma [bold]S[/bold]nyder were out in force then. We were forced to meet behind a series of cleverly hidden thread titles.

[/bold]That worked well.

Darling! How could ANYONE hate ME?

I mean, Emma Snyder, one understands, but meeeee?

Darling! Pussycat! How could they?

The fix is in for r231:

No, R229, the

[bold]A[/bold]nti-

[bold]S[/bold]oap

[bold]S[/bold]quad to

[bold]H[/bold]ate

[bold]O[/bold]pal,

[bold]L[/bold]ucinda, and

[bold]E[/bold]mma

[bold]S[/bold]nyder

were out in force then. We were forced to meet behind a series of cleverly hidden thread titles.

It didn’t get much hotter than those early Holden episodes where he was outwardly seducing Lilly in the stables. She was so beside herself with passion and lust that she came across as hating him, but you just know she wanted him to plow her. Jon Hensley SMOLDERED in these scenes (9:21-11:55 and 18:47-20:54 will leave you with the vapors...)

It was NEVER believable that Holden would pursue Lily except for her money. Wish they'd gone that angle..

Judson Mills showed peen in GODS AND MONSTERS

The cleverly named "closeted" soap threads on DL may have been hard to find prior to the DL redesign in 2014, but there was always a thoughtful discussion of soaps in them.

Rarely did the trolls talking about clogged toilets or Q scores or fat actors derail those threads as so frequently happens now.

Hint to r237: block the "clogged toilet" poster. It's like calling Roto Rooter.

I never thought Jon Hensley was that hot. I preferred Scott DeFreitas, Danny Markel, the hot actor who played Tom, Michael Morrison (the HOTTT Snyder), Van Hansis, Jake Silbermann, and the guy who played Reid.

[quote]It didn’t get much hotter than those early Holden episodes where he was outwardly seducing Lilly in the stables.

But man, was it obvious he was cast for his looks rather than his acting skills. To his credit, he did get better over the years.

But, weren't the incesty undertones a turn off? I don't think that Marland thought that through enough. And it makes me wonder if there was some other plan for Lily or Holden that got scrapped or if there was some kind of network interference that Holden and Lily was going to be THE couple.

I don't understand all the hate for Felicia Minei Behr. She made mistakes at ATWT, but she was brought in specifically with a mandate to increase their awful demo numbers. In an interview, she admitted to her era not being successful, but she said she was essentially instructed to apply to ATWT whatever template she had at AMC for achieving high demos. She was also cognizant of the show's history and that it was laden with vets, and tried to be conscious of that when shifting the focus to the younger characters. The problem was that ATWT and AMC were different animals. She was just doing her job. She brought on Lorraine Broderick, who is one of the best writers out there. According to Eileen Fulton, Lorraine had some wonderful story ideas but P&G shot or watered down just about every idea she had. I'm not Behr/Lorraine apologist. Although they did some great things at AMC, they also churned out many a clunker on that show, and I didn't particularly like the darker direction she and Megan McTavish took AMC during her last couple of years with the show. I'm trying to make the argument that she was hired to turn ATWT into an ABC show. She didn't purposely come in and maliciously side-line the vets. It was just an unworkable situation.

[quote]I don't understand all the hate for Felicia Minei Behr.

Well, there was the Luna Walsh debacle. And then the insistence that Scott DeFreitas wasn't "sexy enough" to bring Andy Dixon back, in spite of the fact that fans were begging for his return. Then there was her turning the show into "As the World Turns around Carly Tenney." And let's not forget "What if every new, and some not-so-new, cast member moves into the Yardley Motel?" And we cannot let go of her association with Mickey Against Daytime Drama.

[quote]I'm not Behr/Lorraine apologist.

That is exactly what you are.

R242 = Mickey Against Daytime Drama

One of the reasons why Headwriters and EPs are paid so well, is because they are the ones who have to take the heat and get reputations as show killers. The fans never see the notes from the network and the production company which turn good stories into clunkers. The fans never sit in on the meetings with the numbers crunchers as they pitch ideas on how to freshen things up that go against decades of established history. To be quite honest there are some bad writers and producers, but sometimes good writers and producers are given marching orders to do XYZ. They get all the blame, but I guess the money dulls the pain.

Agree about the incest angle with the Snyders was too much. I don't care that Iva and Josh were (conveniently) adopted; I could never forget that Holden was Lily's uncle. As was Caleb, who she played around with. And Meg married her (adopted) cousin, her (adopted) sister's rapist. And incest victim Angel got passed around from Holden to Caleb to Seth. And Holden and Caleb shared Julie. And Iva and Ellie shared Kirk....this always made it hard for me to watch the Snyders. Especially when they would become so self-righteous about Lucinda's actions, when they were a bunch of hillbillies who fucked each other.

I would have preferred that Josh was killed off or sent out of town, and for Lily to get together with Dusty or someone else, all the while longingly looking at Holden.

Sorry, that should have read "Agree that the incest angle with the Snyders was too much."

[quote]Agree about the incest angle with the Snyders was too much. I don't care that Iva and Josh were (conveniently) adopted; I could never forget that Holden was Lily's uncle. As was Caleb, who she played around with. And Meg married her (adopted) cousin, her (adopted) sister's rapist. And incest victim Angel got passed around from Holden to Caleb to Seth. And Holden and Caleb shared Julie. And Iva and Ellie shared Kirk....this always made it hard for me to watch the Snyders. Especially when they would become so self-righteous about Lucinda's actions, when they were a bunch of hillbillies who fucked each other.

We lived on a farm, hun. Incest was only the tip of the iceberg.

There was an interview on YouTube that has since been taken down of Jon Hensley speaking about Doug Marland, and he had total gayvoice in it. I wish I could still find it.

Had total gayvoice as himself, or imitating Marland?

Jon Hensley and Grant Show were roommates in the 80s.....I wonder if Doug visited and gave them both foot jobs

Jon had total gayvoice himself in the interview.

People who think that X or Y writer or producer killed a show or made a decision are infantile at best and tragically stupid at worst.

So many people had their fingers in the pie that it was a miracle anyone got anything done at all.

JFP killing Maureen on GL made that show get cancelled................17 years later. lol

Amazing how long some of the long-term soaps have been off the air. Edge of Night cancelled 33 years ago last month, Search For Tomorrow gone 31 years. Later this week, Ryan's Hope is coming up on 29 years off the air. Another World gone 17.5 years. Finally, Guiding Light was cancelled 7 years ago last September, AsThe World Turns 6 years ago in September, and both All My Children and One Life to Live gone 5 years.

It blows my mind to think that there are people pushing 40 years old who probably never saw the first few soaps I've mentioned. But then, I've no recollection of Love of Life, which went off in early 1980.

How is it that someone could be alive and not know the joys of Lois Kibbee and her oversized glasses?

And this THEME song!

I know, R256. Fucking TRAGIC.

Did Edge have ANY straight actors and actresses?

Um....no, probably not.

"But man, was it obvious he was cast for his looks rather than his acting skills. To his credit, he did get better over the years."

Once they put Holden in business stories with Lucinda and Tonio and paired him romantically (well, sexually) with Emily, Hensley was fine. Almost like a different actor. It was the writing; all that babbling about "nature" and "bein' out of control" was just SO lame.

I do love that this queen posted the outline Marland wrote in 1985 as a projection for ATWT. The Snyders were supposed to be called the Holdens and Lily was supposed to have a sadistic relationship with Holden (called Clem in the outline).

R196, yes, that's Robin Morse as Pam.

She's so real!!

That is one ugly bathing suit Robert Tyler's wearing. They should have had him in a navy or royal blue speed with white stripes down the side!

ABC must have seen this guy and scooped him up big time for Loving.

My guess is that in the 80s ABC LOVING paid bigger bucks than recurring P&G.

R261 Tom Casiello is hardly "some queen." He wrote for the show.

Part 2 of the Marland long term bible

Part 3

Part 4

Marland liked feet. John Shipp got his job because of feet.

Marland was not the soap god some would make him out to be. I would never put him in the same category as Nixon, Bell, or Phillips. Regarding his two stabs at creating his own soap, Loving was really good its first year, but used AMC as a template. And have any of you ever seen his cable soap A New Day in Eden? Just awful. If the internet were around in Marland's day, people would be bitching and moaning about his work on ATWT: "He has totally sidelined the Stewarts!" "Barbara as a bitch is so plot driven and out of character!" "The show is now wall to wall Snyders!" "The canvass is way too full!"

Marland was one of the best. He had his blind spots and weaknesses, as do all head writers.

There was a great post here years ago about the pluses and minuses of each. Marland was not good at creating his own show, and could sometimes be bogged down in the midst of trying to weave a story but he was an excellent editor and could look at a show and just know exactly what it needed. He did it even to himself a few times during the ATWT run, where suddenly everything just worked.

[quote] totally sidelined the Stewarts

Well, thank God. Outside of Emily and Susan there was never a more boring soap family.

I think Marland's GL was his best work. His material really holds up. Very adult and intelligent. Long's storylines were probably more entertaining, but hardly as sophisticated or multi-dimensional as his. To be perfectly candid, all of her Lewis cornpone drama became embarrassing after awhile, not to mention the Dreaming Death and Tony/Annabelle's cottage.

I always figured Dreaming Death and Infinity were some bad suggestion by the network or P&G to compete with General Hospital. Every time they tried to compete with GH or DAYS it sucked. Every. Single. Time.

Marland sucked! Well.......

R270, I'm mixed between Marland and what was his best work was -- either GH, GL or ATWT.

At times, I think it's GH because he saved it from being canceled. Tracy Q and her obsession with great uncle Edgar (the perfect name for a dead great uncle!)'s will -- Bobbie Spencer, and it was Lesley/Rick/Monica/Alan and Laura/Scotty/Bobbie -- NOT LUKE -- that saved GH from being axed.

At GL, he created Henry, Vanessa, Nola, Kelly...did the love stories of Alan/Hope, Ed/Maureen, Ross/Carrie (is Jerry verDorn the only guy Jane ever had sexual chemistry with?), the movie fantasies!

ATWT: we had Craig, Lucinda, Iva, Douglas Cummings murder, Frannie and scary villainesses like Marsha Talbot, and Lilith!

Marland did his 'mother takes the blame for murder she didn't commit to save daughter' three times (that I know of).

GH: Lesley takes the blame for a murder Laura committed (and forgot she did) to protect her daughter; she lost Rick, her freedom, anything to save her child.

ATWT: Kim took the blame for Douglas' death, thinking Frannie had done it. (This was his best version of the story IMHO).

the GL one, while I loved the acting and it held my attention, I could never figure out why Jennifer didn't want Amanda to know that she was her mother. That just rang false.

Doug Marland was basically Harding Lemay, except Marland added plots to the character driven storylines. Marland also knew how to play the game better than Lemay did. Lemay had a temper and was paranoid. Lemay's ultimate problem was that he wanted soap opera to break free from all of the things that make a soap opera great and engaging. Marland didn't shy away from soap tropes. Lemay loathed them. And like Lemay, Marland was better at fixing and rejuvenating an already existing but broken soap canvas as opposed to creating his own.

My only issue with Marland is that he never seemed to acknowledge Lemay's role in his career. Marland gave Lemay some jobs writing dialogue, but I don't ever recall reading an article or an interview where had thanked Lemay for his career. Everytime Nixon or Bell are mentioned, the fact that they were Irna's proteges enters the discussion. You read all of this stuff about Marland and you would think that he did it all on his own.

Gawd you people are BORING me with these long posts about Marland. Can we please get back to Holden’s fine self?

I miss Doug’s toes.

Don't forget the "young poor girl tries to trap rich good guy with girlfriend into marriage by claiming she's pregnant--Nola, GL: Ava, Loving; Meg, ATWT.

The Dobsons also recycled storylines:

Baby Switch--Phillip, GL; James/Gunnar, ATWT; Channing/Brick, SB

Marital Rape-- Holly/Roger, GL; John/Dee, ATWT; Mary/Mark, SB

Young woman's lover dies of a heart attack in the middle of sex--Dee, ATWT; Kelly, SB

Woman breaks husband's hand during labor--Annie, ATWT; Gina, SB (she did that to Lionel)

The point is, they all recycled their storylines. It can't be easy trying to come up with that much content.

Loving should've been called Recycling, since it pretty much recycled all of Doug's and Agnes's greatest hits.

R274, that's an excellent analysis.

and you're right on every point.

R277, I have no problem with stories recycled if they're GOOD.

I saw someone tweet out -- and this was mean but it's true -- Jean Passanante, no matter how much you're enjoying your retirement I am enjoying it more!

Jean was famous for throwing twists into stories that never went anywhere.

Anyone can do that.

You have to give Lemay a hand for trying to throw out all the rules, but he ultimately couldn't sustain a mostly character-driven show with threadbare plotlines. Near the end of his run, he began inserting more and more soap cliches into his writing. I've heard it reasoned that the show saw major defection in viewership in 1979 BECAUSE viewers were turned off by all the melodrama, which went against the show's grain. I never bought that argument. There were other factors at play. IMO Lemay's AW remains the best soap ever written. Watching the meager '70s content on youtube, the show was pretty extraordinary, with very crisp characterizations and sparkling, intelligent dialogue.

read his book; Eight Years In Another World; he wrote an epilogue in the Kindle edition.

I'm watching the Globes and this male bashing is overkill.

It's like when Lucinda walks in on Earl and Lisa in a hotel suite in NYC and Lisa says, "Lucy, we're not in Oakdale anymore; this is the Big Apple!!"

Lucy, who's PAYING for the room, says, "But I'm paying for this corner of it!"

[quote]MO Lemay's AW remains the best soap ever written.

Absolutely.

If you want to compare Lemay's AW to something more recent think of MadMen or The Wire. You can compare Marland shows to shows like Grey's Anatomy and Scandal, The Walking Dead or Game of Thrones.

I just mean not all men are predators

I wonder why Tom Casiello is only a [bold]former[/bold] soap writer. Couldn't he get a job after DOOL?

R287, there are TONS of soap writers out there and only four soaps; it's like musical chairs; the music stops, a chair's pulled away and room for one less.

I think Marland's true legacy was his ability to help cast insanely good looking guys...Jon Hensley, Robert Tyler, Judson Mills, Steve Bassett, Jim Wleck, Thomas Gibson, John Wesley Shipp, and Perry Stephens are a few that come to mind. Marland's Boys were so hot!

I've said before how much I loved the first 3-4 of Marland's ATWT, even though AMC was always my favorite soap...would have loved to have seen what Marland could have done with the people of Pine Valley!

I really liked Loving the first year--Agnes and Doug were a good pair. I had only really been watching soaps a couple of years at that point so I didn't know until later that a lot of what they did on Loving had been done before.

Did Doug and Agnes have a falling out over the direction of Loving? From reading Bryan Cranston's autobiography, it seems like Doug and Agnes were the good guys, trying to give this struggling little show an identity, while EP Joe Stuart is painted as the bad guy in the whole mess.

Harding Lemay gave Doug Marland his start at soap writing in the mid 1970s, Doug Marland first gig as a HW was at the Doctors in 1976, when he created the Dancy family (a family he would create again and again in his career -- the Spencers on GH, the Reardons on GL, the Snyder's on ATWT).

He left The Doctors to become HW at GH in 1978, but quit after a dispute in late 1979 with Gloria Monty who wanted to portray Luke's rape of Laura as a seduction.

He quickly hopped over to GL to HW in early 1980. An often overlooked fact is that Harding Lemay was a subwriter under Marland for about a year 1981-82. No idea exactly what his role was or how much influence he had in Marland's storylines, but likely Lemay helped develop the character oriented stoyrlines.

R287 Cuz Casiello is an untalented old queen. Bye gurl.

R287 He was the head writer at WWE for years. (Yes, those stories require a writer.)

He was pretty outspoken during the last strike, so he may have burned a few soap bridges.

How fun to see those blog posts again on Marland's longterm projections...and how odd to see myself posting responses to them 9 years ago.

Marland left both GH and GL because of disputes. The GH one was as R292 said above. GL was because somehow, the producer meddled with his long term story with Carrie - her multiple personality story - and he quit in protest.

Thank you so much for posting the links to the blog about Marland's story projection. Fascinating. I started watching ATWT because of Marland as I was a big fan of his work on GL. On a side note, those snarky comments about Marland and JWS's feet are really played out.

Talking about big jock feet is NEVER played out...

Wasn't Mark Collier reputed to be well hung? At least according to one of the soap gossip columnists.

That was Nelson Branco, who insinuated that about a lot of actors he liked. He said it so often about Josh Morrow (Nick on YR) that I think Morrow had to go to his bosses.

r296 Marland quit GL in a huff in summer 1982 when producer Alan Potter fired Jane Elliot without consulting him. Marland had big plans for the Carrie Marler character's multiple personalities storyline and he was pissed at Potter.

Doug had Gloria Monty’s photo hanging above the toilet in one of his guest bathrooms. No kidding.

I'm sure Doug had something great eventually planned for Carrie Marler's multiple personalities, something that would showcase Jane Elliot's talents. But the story hadn't progressed that far by the time she was fired.

What we saw on screen was fairly yawn worthy. She was a dull character. GL has many, many other characters who were far more interesting at that point.

Jane Elliot probably didn't come cheap -- she already had any Emmy from GH by that point. Alan Potter probably saw that he was paying out the wazzo for a character that wasn't connecting with the audience and consequently fired her.

Someone posted Carrie Marler highlights on YT. While the rest of the show was great during this time, her story was dull and sticks out like a sore thumb. IMO, Jane Elliot is just not a very likable actress. Of course she was wonderful on GH and I also found her pretty delightful on AMC, but that's about it. I remember it finding it laughable on Knots that someone as hot as Gary would fall for her drab Judy Trent.

I like Jane but Tracy was definitely the best fit for her.

Funny that she was almost on ATWT, which got scrapped after Doug's death.

It was supposed to be a story with Jeanne Cooper and her, a mother/daughter I think, or a new core family. I wonder what that story would have been. Doug and Jeanne are gone and Jane never said when she left GH in retirement.

Jeanne has said she was in talks with ATWT, but I think that was exaggeration. I couldn't see her leaving an iconic role AND relocating to the East coast. I think that was a lot of baloney on her part. Jane was great as her signature role of Tracy, but she tended to be very brittle on the other shows she was on. She came off as shrewish no matter what she did, even if a scene called for some sensitivity or kindness. NLG is essentially Jane Elliot but with the ability to convey empathy and compassion.

Jeanne was very close to leaving, if her book was any indication. I think Y&R was a terrible set to be on at that time. But R307 is probably right that she wasn't as close as signing on the dotted line. Still, I wish we knew who the characters were going to be - if they were old characters or new ones.

March is 25 years since the death of Douglas Marland. Wow.

Love Jeanne to death but she should have been a writer because she loved to spin stories.

I believe Bill put her on the backburner because she opened her mouth on a NY talk show at the Emmys '92 when asked about Eric attacking Peter.

Bill wanted that kept in-house and private; he couldn't stop people from asking but anyone's response should have been: That is an internal matter. No further comment. or just plain: "No comment."

Rex was killed off and Kay didn't do much after that for quite a while. I don't think she would have quit Y&R to go to ATWT that had Lisa, Kim, Lucinda, Barbara, Emma, and so many other leading ladies.

Yeah, I can't imagine where she would've fit into the ATWT canvass, which was already top-heavy with "mature" leading ladies. I'm sure it would've been a 180-degree shift from Katherine. Maybe Marland had her in mind to head up some other branch of the Snyder family, which would have eventually included cousins Jack and Brad. Did Marland create Jack? Pretty sure Brad came on well after he had passed away, but I'm iffy on when Jack first appeared and if he was a Marland creation.

no, Marland did not create Jack.

Marland probably would have cast Michael Park as the new Caleb. The extra Snyder cousin never made any sense.

Did they ever mention Jack/Brad's parents? I'm assuming they were Harvey Snyder's brother's sons?

wasn't Harvey's brother Josh/Rod's non biological father?

Oh, maybe you're right, r315. Then how were Jack and Brad related to Emma?

R316, I gave up on the show after Doug died.

Writers came in and ruined the show; outside of Lisa suing John and a nice anniversary show I didn't find much entertaining in the 90s.

Through Harvey, R316. But I don't remember how.

I could have written r317, but I returned for Luke and Noah, and dropped that like the NYE ball after their non-kiss under the mistletoe. Such disrespect P&G showed us.

I liked the show a bit during Sheffer's reign, and watched when Luke and Noah were on for a bit (though I didn't care for them very much, to be honest) but yeah, this show was waaaaay worse at the end than GL. At least some of the actors on GL sorta kinda acted like themselves. At the end of ATWT it was the three vaginas that ate Oakdale: Katie, Carly and Janet.

Thankfully, I didn't watch enough to be truly cognizant of Katie and Janet, but I know I hated Carly enough for all three of them.

Brad and Jack's dad was Bert Snyder....evidently.

And I started watching GL because of Carrie, so I guess it takes all kinds.

Forgot the link.

So many crotch droppings gnawed their way out of Emma's cooch.

I loved Kathleen Widdoes but whatever illness she had at the end of the show made her look awful.

Ugh, this thread has turned into such a bore.

What is Meg Ryan's problem? Why is she so embarrassed about her soap past? Same thing with Michelle Forbes. They should pull the sticks out of their asses and just embrace it, like Julianne Moore. ATWT had some really fine actors who were well respected outside the soap bubble, like Kathleen Widdows and Larry Bryggman.

Jack and Brad's mother was shown for a brief period, and she was played by Valerie (Can't Stop The Music) Perrine! I believe this was during the era that John Loprieno played Brad.

The original Brad was so fucking hot it melted my brain. Then he suddenly left for some reason and John Loprieno played him for a while (but was terrible at it).

A clip of that actor's work.

LOL at a scene with a ball gag rolling right into....Emma Snyder. What a segue.

I've been watching a ton of Dobson and Marland era ATWT on You Tube lately, and they're like 2 different shows .The Dobson's show feel more disjointed-a small set of characters used in a few storylines. Marland's show feels more like a community-like Pine Valley. I remember watching ATWT as a teenager in 1989/90, and wanting a family like the Hughes's and parents like Bob and Kim.

What was the deal with Maggie Crawford. The actress was horrible. She was supposed to be this ball busting attorney but she came across as a bad community theater actress. Same with Miranda Hughes-Elaine Princi would have made a better wife for John than Bob. And Robert Horton's wig was horrible--he looked like an old drunk and didn't mesh well with Lisa.

One thing that strikes me is what a pain in the ass Iva was. Lucinda got all the blame for the Snyder's problems when Iva was really at the root of them. She was such a Debbie Downer. She was a pathological liar, too; and she never really got her comeuppance.

As good of a writer as Marland was, you can see why he wanted to clean house when he died. The show was top-heavy with dull characters like Linc, Hutch and Debbie, and the show needed a shot in the arm.

R327 there was a third Brad too, but I can't remember the actor's name.

Marland liked a large cast. I think at one point WT had over 50 characters and 40 were contract and the other 10 were heavy recurring.

R329, Iva got hers -- remember her husband?

He played Billy's butch gay-hated dad and the actor was so miscast in that role; I didn't find him to be very 'soap' on any level.

Gay BIlly's butch dad on OLTL that is.

How did Emma Snyder handle Luke's coming out?

R334 It was actually one of the better parts of the story. She loved Luke but struggled with it a bit. Not in a gross overt homophobic way, but she had a hard time with it.

Lily and Emma both struggled a bit, while Lucinda was the most accepting. I really wish they'd have done more of an Auntie Mame kind of thing with Lucinda and Luke. They had great chemistry in that way.

This one is right before the scene at 335

I still remember a scene with Holden and Luke in the stables where I swear to Irna Phillips, those two were gonna take off their shirts and go at it.

^Hank, get off the fucking computer!

The first Brad Snyder was Nick Kokotakis (clip above), who left the show for family reasons. The second was Roy Eudon, who was an emergency recast when Kokotakis left (in video at 1:00). Then they brought on John Loprieno (ex-Cord, OLTL) who was fired due to his high salary and negative viewer reaction at his hiring.

Then they brought back a now younger than Jack Brad later in the form of Austin Peck (ex-Austin, DOOL).

Charles is long dead. You know Hank is a sugar daddy now and is dating some one named Topher, or Kristof.

Roy Eudon was hot.

I always thought that Austin Peck was one of the hottest men to ever grace soaps. His face was the perfect combo of pretty and handsome, and his body was beyond unbelieveable. He awakened stirrings in this then-teen that I had yet to understand.

Kim stinkface at 17:00!

(sadly, no "toots" or "kiddo")

I forgot about Peter Noone being on the show. So much stupid stunt casting.

I know lots of people hate on Carly, Katie, Janet, et al., but I don't think anyone has mentioned hating the character I hated most of all post-Marland: Molly! I hate, hate, HATE, HATED her. And resented every minute I had to hear her soft-core porn line deliveries and I'm such a victim BS. Hate!

I hated Molly, but not as much as I hated her cousin.

I know it's not popular sentiment, but I think Goutman and Passanante put together a serviceable show. It was far, far, far from perfect, but you could tell they had a vision and it was a lot better than most of the shows that were still on. In their defense, with the network and P&G mandating an emphasis on the young characters to get the demos up and rejecting story after story, it had to have been next to impossible to keep the show top heavy with vets and still recognizable yet contemporary, especially on an ever-dwindling budget. That was a daunting task. And no, I'm not Goutman or Passanante, just someone who understands that there were probably 10,000 cooks stirring the pot from everything to which stories made it on the air, to which actors got airtime, and down to casting, etc.

r347 owned the Yardley Motel.

Maybe the reason Meg Ryan is ashamed of her stint on ATWT is because it lapsed with Danny Pintauro's.

Lapsed = overlapped

Emma was such an old cunt.

Irna would call the ATWT production after she saw the air show in Chicago.

If she didn't like the episode she'd say to the receptionist, who'd answer "Hello, Irna! As the World Turns!," Irna would bark: "Not today, it didn't!"

Irna was a sad old cunt.

Julianne Moore was on the same time as Meg (the immediate pre-Marland era under Susan Bedsow Horgan, IIRC) and she didn't seem too ashamed.

Irna was a nasty old beyatch. Obviously miserable in life.

Meryl Streep would make a great Irna Phillips.

Betty Rea was the casting director on GL and was the casting director on ATWT from 1980-84 or so. Her track record for discovering soon to be famous actors is amazing--Kevin Bacon, Meg Ryan, Marisa Tomei, Dana Delaney, Michelle Forbes, Sherry Stringfield....

Nick Kokotakis (pictured with Michael Park) was the hottest Brad, no contest.

[quote]JFP killing Maureen on GL made that show get cancelled................17 years later. lol

Ever hear of a domino effect? That was the first of many things that brought it down. Maybe the show could have survived that if Reva's return hadn't been an excuse to dumb the show down anew. I mean, cloning was one thing but everything after that was just a big old pile of What-the-Fuck-Did-I-Just-Watch? It's one thing to do sci-fi or fantasy on a show like [italic]Dark Shadows[/italic] where you expect that kind of thing, but when you take a show that's supposed to be grounded in reality and remove those groundings on purpose, eventually you can use it to justify doing anything. But you won't gain new audience members or keep old ones.

ATWT post-Marland had problems, too; its over-reliance on Carly was just the tip of the iceberg. But neither of them suffered as much as AW suffered. Seriously, that faux-ER opening never should have been. Daytime trying to copy prime-time has never really worked because the money just isn't there to do it right. At least not five days a week.

[quote] Meryl Streep would make a great Irna Phillips.

Amy Adams would be a better one and it might finally get her an Oscar with the right script and director.

R358 GL followed the crazy from DOOL when Marlena's possession story brought Days ratings UP after the OJ trial. I think it was the only soap to increase its audience back then. That is also why he got PASSIONS. James Reilly could have written anything and NBC was going to air it.

Cloning Reva, making her a princess (!) and finally a psychic Ghost explorer through paintings was just the cherry on the cake to destroy GL. Zimmer and Newman complained other actors didn't want to be in the Clone storyline because they felt it would ruin their characters. It might have been entertaining but can you imagine Bert Bauer having tea with Clone Reva?

[quote]That is also why he got PASSIONS. James Reilly could have written anything and NBC was going to air it.

And that's one of the many reasons I hated [italic]Friends[/italic] then and still do now: while NBC was hyping the shit out of that shit, they were letting real soaps die on the vine. Now they've only got one.

[quote]It might have been entertaining but can you imagine Bert Bauer having tea with Clone Reva?

Would she have gotten her leg back since a recast would have been necessary no matter what? If you're getting into the occult, why not delve into the existence of Heaven and Hell? That would take the show back to its roots; back in the radio days it used to be about Rev. Ruthledge.

Did GL ever clone Bert’s leg? That would have been ratings gold.

If you're going to do a far-out storyline that has the potential to alienate longtime fans if executed poorly, either go all-out or don't do it at all.

Everyone points to 90s Days of our Lives as some turning point in soap opera. That's bullshit. The first time Luke and Laura had to save the world, that is when soaps were changed forever. Neither Gloria Back in the 70s, nor Jim Reilly in the 90s asked anyone to copy them or the formula that was working for them.

Every soap owns its own choices. Killing Maureen Bauer didn't kill GL. The show made a choice. The show had a great run. If anything killed it, it was time and circumstance.

How did a thread about the hotness of Jon Hensley turn into this?

People have been trying to write about Irna, make a movie about her, or get a documentary about her going for years. But she was private and sort of created her own story, and until someone gets that and starts framing a story that way, it will be nearly impossible to get her story out to the public.

This stupid Maureen Bauer thing has got to end. It was nearly 30 years ago. It was a fictional TV series with fictional characters. No one is hanging on to that except some fossilized queens and fraus who can't move on. Christ, get a life.

Oh, do fuck off, R367.

R367 Exactly! Maureen was such a BORING dull old frau. Don’t forget the reason that she was killed off. A focus group was asked if they would miss Maureen and they said hell no! So JFP listened to the focus group and killed her boring ass off. It provided good material for so many and won lots of emmys. I applaud the decision to kill that boring doormat.

I liked Ellen Dolan in the role. She had a bit of the Reardon fire. Ellen Parker was just drab and dull and faded into the woodwork. When Parker first joined, they brought back Lee Lawson as Bea, I guess to give this character with a new face some footing. They had absolutely zero mother/daughter chemistry. You couldn't believe that this dreary frau was the sister of dynamic characters like Tony, Nola, and Jim. I think it was Joe Willmore who first tried to axe Parker by trying to lure back Dolan, albeit unsuccessfully. Good riddance to Parker, I say. JFP made the right move.

If that's your attitude, R367, then why consume any kind of fictional media at all? What is the point of getting involved in the emotional lives of people who don't actually exist?

r371 was triggered.

r367 What are you even doing here, spending time with people for whom you obviously have So Much Contempt?

Is that whacko serial asshole here? Sick fuk.

R367 is worse than Lillian Raines' cum stained panties.

here's what killed GL IMHO:

1. Killing Maureen (and not bringing back Claire for Michelle, and Hope, Lanie, Bea or ANYONE to fill the matriarch void)

2. Losing Jim Reilly to DAYS

3. Bad recasts and the influx of SB actors: Deas, Dusay, Walker (Maybe rehiring Zimmer would have helped over casting Walker as Tangerine Hill)

4. The Santos clan ("Meeeee-shell!" - lovely actress though.)

5. San Cristobel

6. Cassie (Sarah would have gone to HB for $ before giving up a child for adoption)

7. Killing off Phillip. (nail in the coffin; Grant was popular and he can, you know, act.)

I stopped watching after The Death of Maureen. They killed Philip?

they did; and then they revealed he was alive, but Grant didn't come back for those episodes; his return was announced, I think, in either late 2008 or early 2009 and he was back on camera; there was hope!

but then in early April the news came down that the show was axed.

Not only that but Alan thought he killed Philip

AND THEN

Alan got together with Beth and they had a baby.

The FUCK?

[quote] his return was announced, I think, in either late 2008 or early 2009

His return was announced in, like, August, but for reasons I never understood, he didn't appear until the following February, which was way too late to help.

I just realized this is Holden Snyder's thread, not Philip Spaulding's.

Phillip's dong is much bigger and more pendulous.

But yes, there is a GL thread as seen below. R376 I wish you'd post that list in the GL thread

I bet Seth, Holden and Caleb had a circle jerk out there in the barn.

Iva, I'll be back....gotta go out to the barn for something.....

Lily was the absolute queen of making the world turn around her, but Carly, Janet and that awful GWEN weren't far behind.

Lily had reason. Carly had nothing.

I kind of liked Gwen, or at least the actress who played her. Jennifer Landon, IIRC.

Hated her.

I find it hard to believe that Jennifer Landon won daytime Emmys three years in a row. For what?

Sulking, every time I saw her.

Who was Gwen related to?

She was Michael Landon's daughter.

[italic] Ride a cock-horse to Banbury Cross,

To see a fine lady upon a white horse;

Rings on her fingers and bells on her toes,

And she shall have music wherever she goes. [/italic]

I agree with the poster who said that Nick K. was the hottest Brad. Absolutely! It was such a letdown when they brought the character back as the younger brother of Jack and as a dumb jock.

I disagree with the poster who supports Goutman/Passanante. I have no idea of what went down there, but she has since shown (THREE TIMES! With Y&R, ATWT and GH. And is now "retired") that she cannot headwrite a soap to save her life. And Goutman stuck with her (there were rumors that he dictated those terrible storylines....who knows?). After HS left (and I wasn't aware of things like that....I just watched the show), I remember thinking, "This show is becoming terrible, just like OLTL." I was not surprised to find out then that she was from OLTL, which at the time had snoozy stories (it got better at the end when RC took over).

For an actor and director, Goutman didn't seem to have any respect for the audience, drastically changing characters like Brad and Craig (when poor Scott B. came back to play his role, he had a terrible time making it work with the mustache-twirling character that Craig had become). Making Paul psychic. How about Cowboy Sam (or whatever his name was)? Goutman kept trying to bring over soap actors from other networks, who for the most part, failed (I will admit it was partially due to terrible stories) because they didn't really fit in the ATWT universe. I could go on and on, but I'll quit for now.

What happened to make McCabe finally divorce Goutman? They were together for over 30 years.

R392 You know Doug did that just so someone could say "cock" on the air.

But seriously, I LOVED the Sabrina intro story. Those scenes in Venice made me weep. A shame they never seemed to know what to do with her once she was back in Oakdale.

Jennifer Landon was amazing as Gwen. Gwen's romance with Will was a classic rich boy/poor girl story. Class conflict is one of the best soap traditions and I loved it.

^Go watch Upstairs, Downstairs or your musty AW tapes from 1976 for dreary class conflict. I like my soaps for the hot hunks and action adventure storylines, in that order. Soaps are pretty much worthless otherwise.

I loved the original Rosanna with her tight sweaters!

Plot-driven storylines are what killed off most of the soaps, R398, but I hope you enjoyed it while it lasted.

Am I only one who thought the amazing Susan Batten was a step up from dull, stupid Allison Rice Taylor or whatever the hell her name was?

r398 r400 "Action-adventure" is the thing soaps are least well situated to do well. Plus I hate "action-adventure" no matter what the format.

r397 Class conflict is what soaps do best. Cory v. Frame: mmmm. That's what got me hooked and all I knew was Matthew & Josie at first.

Yes, R401. Luna was fine as local Llanview yokel tarot reader. Connor Walsh was not an "aw, shucks, Max" character in the least. It was the beginning of the end. I think we can blame that squarely on Felicia MB and Mickey Against Daytime Drama. Does that meet with your approval, "It Takes An Entire Production Company/Network Fusion to Fuck Up a Soap" Queen?

The Connor recast was one of the worst recasts in soap history.

If Doug Marland hadn't died and stayed with ATWT or gone elsewhere, he'd likely have been subject to the same network scrutiny, interference, and micromanagemnet that increased after the OJ trial and onward. Even the sainted Agnes Nixon was shut out of the AMC writers' room by the mid-2000s, and who knows what would've happened to Bell's input into Y&R had he lived. Lorraine Broderick, well respected multi-Emmy winner, had idea after idea shut down when she joined ATWT. And before you bitches go on about how awful Broderick was at ATWT, don't forget that she was well respected in the industry and was your beloved Nancy Curlee's choice to replace her on GL as HW when she went on maternity leave. I think Doug would've just left the industry rather than be micromanaged.

Doug would have continued to hire young gay men to suck his toes.

R401 I liked Susan Batten a lot, and I agree she was more interesting that Allison Rice Taylor, but she was terribly miscast. They should have made her Connor and Evan's sister or something, or brought her on as just about any other character.

I would have welcomed Susan as any other character - not to mention that she would have been a great recast Roxie Shayne on Guiding Light.

Ignore Miss R398 and her nonsense.

She'll be telling us about plumbing issues soon enough.

If you ever wanted to see DL soap faves Van Hanis and Tuc Watkins make out, watch the latest season of Eastsiders on Netflix.

That's Miss Hazzzzzzzznisssssssssssss to you!

Is Tuc's dong as pendulous as Jake's?

It is not revealed, R410. Neither is Van's, for that matter.

Jake's dong is so enormous it has its own zip code.

I really wish we could see Il Penduloso in all his glory.

I saw it in that play he did and it's nothing memorable.

[quote] If Doug Marland hadn't died and stayed with ATWT or gone elsewhere, he'd likely have been subject to the same network scrutiny, interference, and micromanagemnet that increased after the OJ trial and onward. Even the sainted Agnes Nixon was shut out of the AMC writers' room by the mid-2000s, and who knows what would've happened to Bell's input into Y&R had he lived. Lorraine Broderick, well respected multi-Emmy winner, had idea after idea shut down when she joined ATWT. And before you bitches go on about how awful Broderick was at ATWT, don't forget that she was well respected in the industry and was your beloved Nancy Curlee's choice to replace her on GL as HW when she went on maternity leave. I think Doug would've just left the industry rather than be micromanaged.

Just like Harding Lemay. Those were all the same things that drove him away.

Agnes Nixon getting shut out of her own show was Disney's fault; that never would have happened under ABC's old owners. Likewise, Bill Paley's death probably accelerated the decline of the two oldest shows on the network by that point. By the time Lucille Ball died, they were the only shows still running on CBS that overlapped with [italic]I Love Lucy[/italic]. Even their morning shows kept changing formats.

If it hadn't been for all the corporate micromanaging, the soaps might have survived the OJ trials in better shape than they did. All the other excuses (more competition from VCRs and the internet, more working women) don't hold up. Many cable and streaming dramas follow a serialized format with a bigger budget and have been since [italic]The Sopranos[/italic]. Once again, the pressure to compete with The Next Big Thing ironically caused soap operas to wash away even more. They doubled down on the glitz even more than in the 1980s, but dumbed down the scripts.

r408

link to scene??

Van licked Jon’s hairy hole? Pics or it didn’t happen.

[quote] I saw it in that play he did and it's nothing memorable.

Numerous people have said otherwise, including reports of straight women gasping when they saw it, and one saying, "Howard, that's three times the size of yours and his isn't even awake!"

I saw the first preview (before they added the sock) and everyone gasped when they saw it. Huge, thick, beautiful.

The audience in the front row audibly gasped.

Did Van ever put his mouth on Jake’s peen?

I remember someone in a thread at the time of the play described it in detail. He was an old whore and even jaded old Whorina was like, "You just wouldn't believe how long, thick and proportionate it was."

I think he came up with "pendulous." It was so heavy it CURVED downwards.

One wonders when Sir Silbermann will begin his escorting career. Acting and directing aren't going gangbusters for him.

R423 supposedly a very wealthy gay fan of Van and Jake offered them lots of money to do a sex tape. Van didn't respond but I wonder if Jake would have, had Van said ok.

Jake has always been and remains an untalented actor. He’s awful. He needs to do something else where he may have talent because acting sure isn’t it.

R424 that's hysterical.

John Wesley Shipp said in an interview in one of the soap mags that Doug was asked by the network if he could somehow either resurrect or not kill off (I think resurrect or give a twin to) Douglas Cummings due to Shipp's popularity.

Marland got furious. He said no because that would negate the journeys that Frannie and Kim went on.

Doug wasn't afraid to lose a popular performer like Shipp and move Frannie into new romances with Casey and Seth.

Meanwhile, ABC makes a "Todd doll" and Todd was made into some kind of anti-hero after he RAPED Marty and STALKED a blind Nora.

Jake rapes Marley on DAYS and years later Vicky marries him. No. Just no.

Even Jack on DAYS...so dumb; Kayla marries him because she feels sorry for him and then he rapes her after he gets his strength back after he goes into remission.

Of course, this goes waaay back to GH making Luke a hero. The reality is Luke should have died at the end of Luke and Laura's summer on the run. It's one thing for things to be messy or vague in some situations, but -- and you can look at the tape -- Laura said NO NO LUKE NO.

No means no.

Maybe Laura could have run from the disco before Luke raped her and then she'd been raped in the park and people would have thought it was Luke? I don't know. Anything would have been better than what they did.

Real historians know that the Bobbie/Scotty/Laura and Lesley/Rick/Monica/Alan stories were what really saved GH; Doug Marland brought the show from near cancellation to number 2. Then Pat Falken Smith came in, continued Doug's stories and brought the show to No. 1.

Genie did a great job playing Laura's rape, the aftermath. It's one thing not to name Luke as her rapist as Frank Smith might have had him killed but there's no way she should have married him.

Decades later, Laura has found a good guy in Kevin. I hope it lasts for a long time.

I mean Jake rapes Marley on ANOTHER WORLD.

I am still giggling at whomever said above that Jon Hensley turned into a lesbian.

So did Hensley and Hansis do the nasty? Getting hot just thinking about it.

"Doug wasn't afraid to lose a popular performer like Shipp and move Frannie into new romances with Casey and Seth. Meanwhile, ABC makes a "Todd doll" and Todd was made into some kind of anti-hero after he RAPED Marty and STALKED a blind Nora."

Look, I am the biggest Marland lover ever, but he's not exactly innocent here. The redemption-- indeed, near-beatification-- of Josh Snyder/Rod Landry sickened me then and sickens me now. IMO, it was Marland's biggest mistake. The constant badgering of Iva, not only by Landry, but by her own relatives including her mother (!), to just loosen up and not be so uptight about one little rape, is heartbreaking to watch (MARY!). And then marrying him to her sister Meg and insisting that Iva be a bridesmaid and wish them well... Seriously, fuck that.

What R431 said. I liked the actor a lot, but that story would crumble under a close inspection today.

Marland was a little TOO intense. Even Harding Lemay said as much in an interview a few years back. He quit GL in protest of his hag Jane Elliot being axed, even though the Carrie storyline moved at a glacier pace and was ultimately a huge bore. Maybe Doug had a personal reason for not wanting to keep Jon Wesley Shipp. Did Shipp reject Doug's sexual advances?

Jesus, Shipp signed on for a limited run and had his eye on other jobs. It's as simple as that.

Was Shipp in demand outside the soap bubble when he was doing ATWT? He seemed like just a soap hopper most of his career, from GL to ATWT to SB to AMC to Loving.

"I liked the actor a lot..."

Yes, William Fichtner is a good, naturally-sympathetic actor, which only made the issue worse.

The only rape storyline where there was some level of redemption that ever worked was Roger Thorpe on GL, because he was truly tormented about it and he was never presented as a "sex symbol."

And even THAT story, as well as the complexities were played out for YEARS between Roger and Holly, was compromised a bit, because we all forget that Holly was NOT the only woman Roger raped.

I forgot, who else did Roger rape? Barbara? Sarah? Bert?

Rita, I think, R438.

Rita, yes. He also attempted to rape Janet, early on, and I thought I remembered that he raped Peggy too, but this just says he was abusive. (I'm too young to remember the 70s stuff so reading second hand,)

Johnny Dixon also raped his wife

R436: I still can't believe that William Fichtner was cast as Lily's father. He's a very good actor, but he was just WAY too young for the role. It made every scene between them unbelievable.

But were any of these rape-rape?

Fichtner has always read older, so I think it worked. Of course, he was very critical of the writing.

What are you looking at, toots?

Shipp loved Marland’s toes.

Kim Stewart had a smelly pussy.

Don't recall Roger ever even being abusive with Peggy.

[quote] I still can't believe that William Fichtner was cast as Lily's father. He's a very good actor, but he was just WAY too young for the role. It made every scene between them unbelievable.

That was the point, though. Iva had Lily when she was 13, and I think Josh was only supposed to be a year or two older. So the fact that they would be so young was very much the point.

Yeah but Lisa Brown didn't look a day under 50 at that point, which didn't help they were constantly pairing her with ugly old men like John Dixon and that Jason Benedict creature. She aged pretty rapidly from GL to ATWT, though looking back on her GL days, she did have a hard look even back then which would not mature well.

Van makes my hole moist.

^Van Johnson? Van Morrison? Bobby Van?

^ oh, fucking please

Hank was a top?!?!?!? LMAO.

R431, I agree fully on all counts.

The Rod reveal as Josh was a twist, but then kill him off; nobody wants the town rapist showing up for the holidays.

I loved when Seth and Holden beat the shit out of him.

If Maryland wanted to make Josh a hero he could have had him die in the Ruxton Hills family trying to save Lily. Or have him stay together with Betsy, who thinks she believes his story about Iva and has him move in with her.

Until she sees him with Dani, thinks he’s attacking her, and Betsy kills him, until it turns out he wasn’t doing anything of the sort. It would have given Betsy and Kim a good story-better than Laura Simmons.

It's hard to believe that Ellen and David were the same generation as Bob, Kim, Don, Lisa, Penny, etc. Ellen looked more like Nancy's contemporary. I guess it didn't help that they aged her kids so rapidly, or that Patsy Bruder always looked so damn frumpy.

David was significantly older than Ellen. The original story was Ellen (the teenager) gave up her child and David and Betty Stewart (established adults) adopted him. But you are right. Patsy Bruder always looked and acted older than she was. And the fact that they essentially aged her son Dan to her age didn't help.

Patricia Bruder also had a quavery voice even as a young woman.

She was too dour and I liked her.

The brillo pad hair do for David's funeral was unforgivable.

What, no mention of the Black and Stern era which featured Sarah “Pinhead” Kasnoff and her black friend Zoe?

Best left forgotten, R461, unmentioned.

R461 that era was horrible. Love it or hate it, ATWT was always know for good acting. Stern and Black almost put an end to that with characters like Mark Kasnoff, T. Jones, Sarah and that piece of wood who played Paul Stenbeck for a short while.

Was As The World Turns cancelled?

Yeah, it was truly terrible there for a while during Stern/Black.

And then later, when Jean "I Can't Write A Soap For Shit" Passante ruined it.

Stern & Black is the reason why I shake my head when fans are constantly whining about daytime writers being recycled from show to show. I truly believe that head writing soap opera is a unique skill and not many people can do it. It's hard to sustain 30 characters for 250 episodes a year. Most writers want to write a story with a beginning, a middle , and an end. Soaps are a constant middle, which is why not just anyone can write it.

Problem is that maybe except for Lorraine Broderick and maybe Kay Alden, there hasn't been a decent recycled writer for the past 25-30 years. Passanante, Altman, Higley, Griffith, Tomlin, Sussman-Morina, Carlivati, Kreisman, Swajeski, et. al. were all average to awful.

Let's not forget Bill Horton in the long line of redeemed rapists.

the shows were always up for redeeming these rapists; e.g. Rod raped Iva, but he rescued Lily from James so we tolerate him in the group scenes.

I love how Liz's Lucinda sliced and diced Rod in the hospital room; interesting direction with the grid on the window resembling jail cell bars.

it's in the prologue; you can stick around for the rest of the show to watch Casey and Lyla tie the knot.

Welcome back from your coma, R464.

ATWT never utilized young people well. The stalwart vets like Wagner, Ortega and Johnstone looked down on anyone under 30. It was such an old person's show from the dull Midwest with crappy sets that looked like they came out of the S&H Green stamp catalog. Penny Hughes was a 40 year oldl woman living with her parents with her teddy bear still on her bed. Yet her pal Ellen Lowell Stewart was a great grandmother before she was 40. Weird.

[quote]Let's not forget Bill Horton in the long line of redeemed rapists.

Rhett raped Scarlett. I think that romantic fiction, not just soaps, has always played fast and loose with the rape trope. The audience loves a good bodice ripper. But times have changed and everyone is more sensitive to no means no. My only real issue with the redeemed rapist trope is that in a genre geared towards women, the story almost always becomes about the rapist and his road to redemption and the woman become a supporting player.

[quote]Let's not forget Bill Horton in the long line of redeemed rapists.

DOOL?

R469 Was Bill Shanks (Casey Perretti) a homosexual?

Did Melanie Smith choose to leave? She should not have.

R469 Whose house is the wedding reception at? Why do Tom and Margo seem broken up (and why did we get a reaction shot from Hal when he saw them together)? I didn't start watching until the following year.

I think that's Kim's house but could be wrong.

There was a period where Tom and Margo split up, and Margo became pregnant with Hal's baby. She was in Greece, and I don't remember all the details, but Hal is/was Adam Hughes' father.

Thank you, R475. Gotta love a soap poster.

I can say with all certainty that me and my cock wished very hard that Bill Shanks was or is a homosexual.

There was one scene where he was shirtless and I had that on a VHS tape for years. Quite a few loads spurted out to that one.

"ATWT never utilized young people well."

Huh??? Frannie was a classic soap heroine who overcame a traumatic stalking/kidnapping with the support of her loving parents; the Lily/Holden romance threw the Walsh/Dixon and Snyder families into total chaos; Andy's alcoholism led to the Bob/Susan affair and scenes between Kim and John that were absolute GOLD; Lien's arrival mined history in the best way and produced wonderful Hughes family drama; Duke and Julie added some delightfully entertaining "white trash" turmoil... Seriously, I don't know how anyone could have written young people any better than ATWT did in the late Eighties, because they were completely INTEGRATED with their families and the larger community. Simply the best.

How could you find Bill Shanks hot? I mean, yeah, I guess he was handsome, but he was super-hairy (ick!!!) and it wouldn't have killed him to use a bench press every once in a while. Give me an Austin Peck or any one of the OLTL Ford bros any day of the week.

R480 calls his pubestache "Adolf."

I agree with him on the Ford brothers, though.

Bill Shanks is on his second marriage. He was married to Ashley Crow, who played Duncan's sister/daughter Beatrice.

Casey and Lyla's reception is in Kim's house.

Margo and Tom were split at this point. Tom (Gregg Marx) went to Washington DC, Margo had an affair with Hal, Tom (Scott Holmes) came back. At Lyla and Casey's wedding they had not yet reconciled, soon after which Margo discovered she was pregnant and fled to Greece to have Adam.

Hillary had 2 gay actors after her. Marx and Hendrickson.

Ha! Good one. Marx and Henderson were not gay. They were too masculine. Take your gay fantasies elsewhere.

R475, the reception was at Lyla's house.

Thanks, R482 and R485.

From now on! You will be...the only one ....

FROM NOW ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

Do we have a photo of R484? Why, yes, here it is:

You are right, r485. I didn't watch closely enough. Lyla's front door was on the right (stage left) and Kim's front door was left (stage right).

Damn, Gregg Marx is 62 (!) years old.

Here is an interview from 6 years ago. He was still looking pretty good here.

Gregg is a pussy hound!

[quote]Ha! Good one. Marx and Henderson were not gay. They were too masculine. Take your gay fantasies elsewhere.

R484 Gregg's not gay? Whew! Thanks for clearing that up. But damn, Gregg didn't get the memo. He's been going around telling people he is.

He talks about being gay in daytime about 3/4 of way into this detailed 2013 interview.

I love you, R492. Love. You.

I remember editing Wikipedia when Hendrickson died. He committed suicide, which was very sad (have had a family member die in the same way).

I added the cause of his death, supported by a reference. I got these notes from some psycho fan that must have written 4000 words about how horrible I was for posting that information. Oy vey.

Did Hendrickson ever suck Marx’ cock?

I remember the first day the show returned to the air after 9/11. Benjamin Hendrickson’s voiceover saying, “Due to recent tragic events, viewer discretion advised.”

r495, do you mean Elizabeth Hendrickson?

I remember reading about the ATWT crew. They were pretty close geographically to Ground Zero. A bunch of them stayed in the dressing rooms there because there was no way to get home.

r498 ATWT moved to AW's Brooklyn studios shortly after AW was cancelled in 1999. That's nowhere near Ground Zero. However, some of them may have stayed at the studio since transportation was difficult right after the attacks.

R497, are you stupid?

Ben Hendrickson was a total pussy hound!

Yeah. Right.

So Liz Hendrickson and Greg Marx were an item? She dated a lot of other straight soap studs too like Jonathan Bennett, Agim Kaba, Greg Rikaart, and Jacob Young. Lucky lucky girl.

Excuse me! This thread is about ME!

This thread should be about ME. I can't act worth a damn, but I *am* beautiful, damn it.

Nothing beats my Grayson for raw masculine beauty.

I'm bored with Bob and his little Vienna Sausage.

I need something a little bigger. Help me out, kiddos! Whose home should I wreck next?

^Lassie, you want to sample my big Scottish loch ness monster?

Duncan McKechnie-what a weird character. He started off with a dark gothic backstory, but then he became this cartoonish presence. It didn't help that Michael Swan was such a hambone. And he had zero chemistry with Tamara Tunie.

He was a hot hunk of Angus daddy beef, though.

Pushing 70 and still looks like this.

Pity he's a hard right winger.

but fuuuuck...

That Helen Wagner always came off as cold and callous, and not warm and sympathetic like a matriarch should be (see Bert Bauer Jo Tourner, and Kate Martin). I can understand why CBS and P&G greenlit her demotion to recurring in the early '80s. It's a mystery why Marland and Bob Calhoun put that cold fish back on contract.

Kathleen Widdoes and Kathryn Hays were sympathetic matriarchs.

Helen Wagner did an interview about her history on the show a few years before she passed. Her memory is slipping, but you can tell she didn't care for Colleen Zenk or Patsy Bruder.

Marisa Tomei...

Who?!?!

Helen knew how to throw shade!!

Sad to see Helen when her memory was so clearly fading.

And yes, I agree, R515. I don't think she cared for Colleen that much.

I think with Colleen, either you loved her or you hated her. Very polarizing with her co-stars. In later years, I think she was tight with Byrne, Maura, Dolan, and Michael Park. I've heard that Kathy Hays and Hubbard were not exactly her best friends.

Helen hated that CZP kept cheating on her men. CZP couldn’t keep her legs closed. Slut.

Hi HBS @r520!

I love these interviews, especially when they get the actors when they're older and have nothing to lose. You get some interesting, unfiltered opinions. She had to actually struggle to find something nice to say about CZP, then she said oh she had a nice husband. Frances Reid did one of these and sort of revealed that she and the actress who played Julie weren't besties.

I never warmed to Cady McClain as Rosanna. There was just something so mannered and affected about her performance. I could see her "acting." She came off more naturalistic on AMC. She was obviously trying to show the world that she do more than just Dixie, but I think she took it a bit too far.

Susan Seaforth Hayes was a cunt to many, but when you've even pissed off Frances Reid, well, that says something!

SSH admitted that was she was awful at certain points, especially to poor Brent Benet. I know that she and Charlotte Ross (oldEve) loathed each other, but I think that was more Ross's issue that Susan's.

meowch

I love that Helen basically calls Emma Snyder, of all characters, the town slut

Senile old bitch Helen Wagner never had kids. Her pussy stunk.

^It's Colman, dear. Colman. Who's senile now?

I think Helen had a little Bernice Clifton thing going on in that piece.

Nancy used to let Pa Hughes diddle her when Chris was away on one of his business trips.

I was watching earlier one of Julianne Moore's first episodes, and Nancy had just returned from Arizona (for Bob and Kim's wedding) and Nancy gave Frannie a good talking to (at around 30:00). You can almost literally see them putting the pieces together for a multi-generational, expansive Hughes family right before your eyes. It was just glorious.

R532 Interesting that episode was pre-Marland. Doug's first episodes appear to have come around October 1985.

I guess I never realized that while Doug really jump started things, some of the stuff was already arranged or in place.

Interesting also to see that in spring/summer 1985, the creative consultant was none other than.....Harding LeMay. (Could he have played a role in designing the Snyder family?)

"Sorry ma'am, forgetting my manners!" at around 00:45.

You can tell he wants to poke her in the cooter!

but who are those cunts at around 6:30-7:00?

This was RIGHT before I started to watch and I have no idea who those heaux are.

MARY (Ellison Hughes)! @r532.

The show put pieces in place for Marland knowing he was coming at his direction before he was officially writing the show. And the Snyders are all his, not Lemay's.

To answer the question above, Marsha was Doug's assistant and the audience was led to believe that she might be crazy and harm Frannie as a distraction from the Douglas crazy mystery. Marie was Frannie's ex boyfriend Kevin's ex-girlfriend and one of Douglas' victims.

r532

fuck Greg Marx was hot... is he gay??

Scott DeFritos or whatever his name was, sure was fugly. Can you imagine any female viewer fantasizing about him? How he nabbed a hot number like Maura is anyone's guess. So many hot, buff guys could've played that role nicely.

Yes, Gregg Marx is gay.

Scott DeFrietas turned into quite an attractive adult and a good actor...and the audience loved him.

r538. meet r492.

Always helps to read the thread before asking questions

Well, SMELL Miss R541

Andy Dixon was my favorite character of all time.

R539 is Felicia Minibear.

Felicia Behr’s pussy stunk up the ATWT studio. Disastrous time for the show.

Would've been even worse had she brought that homely Defritos back. I did love that put that annoying Lucinda in a coma and ran that old hambone Hubberd off the show.

Wouldn't quite say Andy was my favorite of all time, but he was a very realistic actor. Believably the son of Kim and John.

There was a lot to mine there but they let it slip away. Andy Dixon should have been the new tentpole of the show, getting more of the stories that Tom (and Margo) did.

I only learned this year that Lindsay Frost's late father was Warren Frost (Doc Hayward from "Twin Peaks" and George's dead fiance's father on "Seinfeld") and he brother is Mark Frost, the co-crerator of "Twin Peaks."

They were never going to make Andy the tentpole of anything with Scott still in the role. If the fans would have just shut up and let them recast with the Andy ATWT wanted, then that character would have been front and center for years.

Scotty D was as perfect as Andy as Liz Hubbard was as Lucinda or Kathleen Widdoes was as Emma. They would have recast, then re-recast, then re-re-recast until the show closed. Who was your favorite Paul Ryan, R548? Chris Hughes?

I liked Lindsay Frost's voice though she remind one of a college volleyball player. Meg Ryan was impossible to follow.

I started watching right around when Lindsay Frost had joined the cast so I never knew Meg in the role, and I liked Lindsay just fine.

Lindsay Frost made a far better Betsy than Meg, IMO. Less whining and screeching. But when they paired Betsy with Josh/Rod, that was the beginning of the end. And then they ruined the character of Meg by the same method!

"If the fans would have just shut up"

FMB? Is that you?

Honestly, how stupid does one have to be to tell the audience it is wrong in what it wants?

r553 for Executive Producer of new, rebooted ATWT. Andy would of course be said tentpole (assuming he still looks like a pole and not a tent).

R553, Are you calling Irna Phillips stupid? Bill Bell? Agnes Nixon?

Irna constantly told the audience they were wrong. Bill Bell wrote stories that he wanted and didn't give in to fan pressure. Agnes Nixon was the same way. It wasn't until the last 20 or so years did writers and EPs start giving into the whims of fans and fanbases. Fanbases and the fools who cater to them are the reason why we only have 4 soaps left.

No, you are talking about story, r555. Not actors that the audience loved. Give me an example of Irna, Bill, or Agnes telling the audience NOT to like an actor or that an actor on the show that the audience loved had to go because the actor wasn't hawt enough.

If not stupid, they were some mean-assed cunts, not bringing Scotty D back, especially considering the POS characters and actors they DID parade in front of us during the post-Marland years. Andy Dixon was clearly a fan favorite.

This was and is a good-looking man.

If you are blind and/or headless r558

Maybe they should have had Scott rape someone. Then he would be a great romantic leading man.

Scott DeFreitas may not have been classically handsome, but he was a good actor. And he had grown up in the role of Andy.

In the 1970s and 1980s, actors were cast more for talent than looks. Yes, looks mattered (and sometimes pretty boys were cast), but talent was of foremost importance. Actors like Tony Geary, Justin Deas, Larry Brygman, Richard Bekins and Gerald Anthony never would have been cast in the 1990s. For that matter, Val Dufour was a leading man on AW for almost a decade. And they all gave some of the most compelling performances on their shows.

I think DeFreitas was more a victim of time. By the late 1990s, with so many channels available and ratings on the decline, looks really trumped talent. But a decade or two earlier, he would have naturally evolved into a leading man.

Yet Michael O'Leary returned to GL in the mid 90s and stayed till the end.

O’Leary had a certain charm that DeFreitas didn’t have, though.

I failed to see that charm.

O'Leary was fine when he was younger, I especially liked him when he was paired with Kristi Ferrell and Krista Tesreau.

But he just seemed to yell a lot (too much) in the heavy dramatic stuff. I thought he was good in the lighthouse scenes with Phillip over Meredith.

Towards the middle and the end though it was all, what my old acting teacher used to call, 'schtick.'

The endless jokes got old and I didn't always buy him on the dramatic stuff.

A lot of the soap people view the January 1998 debut of Cameron Matheson on AMC as the tipping point when looks absolutely were more important than talent. God knows, Matheson was green, but AMC quickly turning into the Ryan Lavery Show. Thus, we got to watch him learn how to act while the show revolved around him.

Yes, pretty actors of limited talent had been cast plenty of times before that (Austin Peck on Days and Antonio Sabato on GH come to mind), and some are still quite limited in their abilities (Drake Hogestyn and Ronn Moss come to mind).

But Cameron's casting set the standard for looks far outweighing talent. Agim Kaba, Jordi Vilasuso, Galen Gerring, David Fumero, and Ryan Pavey, owe their careers to Cameron Matheson. Luckily, most of them worked with acting coaches and were able to develop some acting abilities.

Oh honey -- 1998?

Try March 23, 1973 when Bill Bell's The Young and The Restless premiered. So many soap fans want to blame the 90s for everything that went wrong with soap opera. No, no, no. Pretty people began in the 70s. Teen domination began in the late 70s. Soaps copying each other began on radio. Head writer roulette began in the 50s. Soap opera divas causing trouble on the set began in the 50s. Even the 90s over the top and supnaturalesque, gothic storylines had been done before.

Here is the thing. Soaps are a lot like Datalounge, they were always better at some point in the past. But guess what, no they weren't they were all basically the same back then as they are now. The only difference is because back then, you were younger and everything was fresher and newer and everything had promise. It's about nostalgia, longing for a time gone by when you hadn't seen the same story play out and 50 different times for 50 different characters.

Soap opera has always been quick, easy, cheap storytelling to sell detergent. This is why P&G taped over everything before 1979. The same problems that many you say were the downfall of soap opera, have plagued this genre since they were on radio.

If you really want to know what killed soap opera, and basically network TV, it was choices. As the number of channels increased, the number of viewers of network television decreased. I grew up in the middle of east bumfuck and we didn't get cable ( a satellite dish) until 1987. Soap lost viewers because the audience had options.

[quote] Soaps are a lot like Datalounge, they were always better at some point in the past. But guess what, no they weren't they were all basically the same back then as they are now. The only difference is because back then, you were younger and everything was fresher and newer and everything had promise.

I disagree strongly. The two soaps I watched from the 80s into the early 2000s (GL and ATwT) were demonstratively better overall in the earlier years than they were in the later years, and it isn't nostalgia. You can see it in the episodes on youtube. Stronger characterizations, better mix of a large cast all interacting in multiple ways, sharper writing, better production values. Of course there were good and bad periods mixed in, but on average the earlier years weren't better just because they were "fresh" to me.

The only true difference between soaps in the last 20 years give or take is the speed of the storylines and the patience of the audience. They weren't better or worse. Sometimes a soap a good and sometimes it's bad. They are putting out 250 episodes a year. That is the best anyone can hope for.

I had a big crush on DeFreitas when I was a teenager watching ATWT. I liked his jaw. I forget sometimes that he's NOT married to Robin Christopher--she's married to Matt Crane from AW, another cutie I loved.

I think the DeFrietas Troll is a bit overwhelming but agree he was a solid actor.

I wouldn't have minded a recast at some point if they'd have really done it thoughtfully and made Andy a more mature version of what had already been established. Somewhere along the lines of the Alan-Michael and Blake recasts at GL. (Betty Rea is missed!)

The problem with Howarth's Paul - and so many other ATWT recasts - is that they essentially reinvented the character(s) completely. Marie Wilson is adequate to fine as an actress, but she wasn't in any way, shape or form the Meg Snyder we knew before.

That clip up thread may have not quite been Marland's tenure, but it wasn't bad. It's fun seeing future Oscar winners More and Tomei--you can see they each had that "something" that was a bit elevated from the typical soap ingenue.

And my God was Gregg Marxx hot! Frank Runyeon too.

This clip is from that same week. At the 25:00 mark there is Jay and Spree, two characters I barely remember at all, since I wasn't a regular viewer until the Snyders and Douglas Cummings era. I think they and most of the McCalls were phased out once Marland took over. The actor who plays the Jay person looks like a gay porn star from the 80s...can't remember who!

That's CD Barnes (Starman TV show, Greg Brady from the Brady movies) as Paul Stenbeck in the video above.

Jay is cute. Hard to believe Steven Weber was there too.

Jay looks a lot like a younger version of the guy who played Grant Putnam on GH.

Frannie was original Lily Walsh-in 1985/86 she had all of these hot guys (Douglas, Kevin, Jay, Casey, Seth) mooning over her.

Did Hillary Bailey Smith have a heterosexual love interest on this show? They all seemed gay or gay adjacent.

I think with Julianne Moore's Frannie, you can see how Doug was repeating his formula with Genie Francis as Laura on GH.

[quote] I think the DeFrietas Troll is a bit overwhelming

LOL

One of my favorite soap moments ever--back when shows could still pull off a surprise!

I absolutely loved this period of ATWT. The return of James Stenbeck (before it became an annual event), the Craig/Lucinda dynamic, all the upcoming talent (Christian LeBlanc, Stephen Weber, Julianne Moore, Marisa Tomei, etc)...it was soap nirvana.

1986 - 1987 was my first two years watching and I remember some fabulous back to back stories....(not in any specific chronological order)

Doug Cummings

Sabrina (the scenes in Italy were amazing)

Hank coming out

James' return - triggering Barbara, making Margo miscarry

Lily/Iva/Lucinda

John and Lucinda get married

Those were just the big things. There was so much happening and a great burst of energy every few months.

After this it was not as great for a few years, then really got back in the groove late 89-early 1990 especially with Bob/Kim/Susan.

CZP couldn’t keep her fucking legs closed!

Helen Wagner didn't like any of the new 'women' who would show up at ATWT to try and take Bob from the Hughes home. Judith McConnell could tell stories. So could Barbara Rodell. Helen was off the show when Veleka Gray started as Lila but Don Hastings supposedly told Gray that Helen would have hated her.

Elaine Princi owns the Helen Wagner hate thread. Helen and her smelly pussy was off the show when Bob married Miranda but Helen was shooting daggers watching from her Katonah home.

Helen did like Dagne Crane but felt Barbara Rucker was just a Sears catalog model with a lot of teeth. She knew Rucker was about a dozen years younger than Crane and that it made Bob look 'silly' for pursuing her again.

Wonder what ole Helen thought of Kathy Hays.

When they first brought Nancy back in 1985 they seem to be setting up a rivalry between Nancy and Kim and then it disappeared. I don’t recall her being asked about Kathy Hays during that interview. Maybe they didn’t get along.

I think Helen liked Kathy Hays and Eileen Fulton. She had been close to Barbara Berjer when she played Claire Cassen. But in general she was not fond of her female co-stars. Rita McLaughlin probably drove her bats when she insisted that her minister hubby be cast on the show.....as her husband.

Interesting fact - she was very close to Sydney Penny who married her great nephew.

I know she used to volunteer at some museum in NYC all the time.

New thread is ready to go, bitches.

Darling!

Ambrose!

The very long writer's strike in 1988 killed a lot of momentum for stories and ended some with less than rousing finales and made for a very boring summer. The show, and many others, suffered from scabs which is why the show really dipped in that year.

But 1988 also brought us gay Hank Eliot and went as far as it could for showing an out gay man on daytime in 1988. (Not too far but for the time, it was great and this closeted 16-year-old loved it.)

Hank Elliot was great and I loved how each character in Oakdale responded differently.

Iva, of course, was devastated; another hot guy slips out of her grasp.

Hank -- when he starts to break it to Barbara, she says, "You mean you're gay? I knew that."

Bob and Kim were ok with him living in the garage apartment even tho impressionable Andy was still at home.

Shannon- who would've been a fag hag- sensed it and asked if he was gay.

KIrk was envious so tried to be all cool and called him a faggot and pissed Iva off.

Paul get bent out of shape and called him a fag to his face. Barbara got so angry at her son that she said, "Paul, you are my son and I love you. But right now, I don't like you very much." And scene!

Did Colleen spread her legs for Kavovit? She spread them for everyone else!

I have been reading and posting to this thread from day one and just now noticed that Snyder is spelled wrong.

I loved that Barbara, Iva and Shannon all supported him...even if Iva was kind of brokenhearted he wasn't into her.

R595 I'm the OP and *I* just noticed it too.

Oopsie!

I'm hot in uniform and you bitches ignore me.

The moment Holden began to have lesbian hair.

Remember kids, new thread here.

Buh Bye!