When I'm with You, You Take Me Away to the Eyes of Rachel Cory, 10 Underhill Terrace, Bay City, IL

Bug eyed Rachel had the crazy eyes!

Thanks to the lovely OP!

While this title is AW specific these threads are generally about all the P&G shows, which kinda keeps the party going, as it were.

ADA Hobson in da house!

This is how gay I am. I had this photo of Connie framed and it hangs right above the reading chair in my guest bedroom. I call that bedroom "Ada's Room".

Ric Hearst (of many shows but always Alan Michael from GL for me) is on the new Dynasty.

Looks good with gray!

I loved Victoria Wyndham and Beverlee McKinsey. Rachel and Iris fighting over Daddy Mac. Connie Ford was great too.

I found both Rachels equally good. But they were two separate charterers. Wyndham was far too wistful and sympathetic to be a believable villainess (as her duel role of Justine painfully proved). I liked he character that Dorian originated in the 1960s (hot, young Rachel) best of all. Wyndham mellowed out in the role and quickly become the "go-to character". Dorian, if she continued in the role would have been less of a romantic lead, more a career woman and complex protagonist. More like the character Dorian played when she was in All My Children.

[quote]More like the character Dorian played when she was in All My Children.

Yeah. You were watching.

Whatever happened to the Red Swan?

Rick Hearst makes my peen very hard. He has a gay son.

[quote] Yeah. You were watching.

Which was the character that you thought Dorian played best?

[quote]Wyndham was far too wistful and sympathetic to be a believable villainess

Watch this scene and tell me if you still believe that.

George Reinholt was a big homo.

[quote]Whatever happened to the Red Swan?

Didn't it turn into Paulina Cory?

I take back what I said about Dorian Strassman. Wyndham was utterly superb as "Evil Rachel", the way her face contorted in those scenes is full-on horror movie scary!

Val Dufour and Susan Sullivan were an item IRL.

R4 Connie was actually pretty sexy when she was younger, even though that picture was obviously taken after her modeling days she was still a very good looking woman. I just looked up her height she was 5'7.

Val Dufour was a big pussy hound! Wonder if he ever got to eat out Connie Ford?

Val Dufour was a known pussyhound.

Someone in the previous thread was asking what happened during the 70s. R12's clip gives you a glimpse of what the show was like. You had two women at odds over a past affair that produced a child and they were fighting over a house. A house, which was really about more than a house, but a house was the tangible thing for Rachel at the time.

Not only was that something that the viewers could relate to. but it made sense if you knew the history of these characters. Here is this woman trying to take her house away because of what that house represented. And she came into house and pushed a fragile woman over the edge because she could. No one was trying to kidnap anyone. Rachel didn't employ an Alice doppelganger to replace Alice. It was all character. And after that scene Rachel probably went to Ada's and told Ada that she was going to get that house and Ada probably told her to not do that. And after Ada spent a 5 minute scene trying save Rachel from herself, Rachel went off and did what she wanted.

And there you have soap about characters and human emotions and why 10s of millions of people used to watch this stuff every single day.

Connie Ford was a cock hound.

[quote]Not only was that something that the viewers could relate to. but it made sense if you knew the history of these characters.

I started watching when Matthew and Josie first started dating in 1988, and liked it just as a simple haves/have nots story. I became gradually aware of the Cory-Davis-Frame subtext over the next few months (the holidays; the Bay City version of De Maupassant's "The Necklace"), after which time, I could not fathom why people made fun of soap opera. I have always regretted not having watched years earlier.

R20, whatever the fuck THAT means!

No AW thread would be complete without this, sadly audio-only but still packs a punch.

Start at about 19:30

[quote] No one was trying to kidnap anyone. Rachel didn't employ an Alice doppelganger to replace Alice. It was all character.

Nope, sorry. None of that works for me.

I'm currently watching The People v. Felicia Gallant! Jealous, bitches?

I really like PTSD vet John before he became bland Dr. Hudson.

I just want to make it clear that I'm not trashing the shows or the writing that focused on the outlandish or writers who were more plot driven. Just because Lemay was doing his thing over at Another World doesn't mean that other soaps weren't overly focused on plot over character. I am currently watching The Doctors over on Retro TV, that show was brilliant under Rita Lakin and Rick Edelstein. It sort of reached the height of popularity and ratings success under Eileen and Robert Mason Pollock who were quite plot driven. The show is currently featuring two back from the dead stories at the same time complete with amnesia for one and a brand new face for the other.

Lemay was unique and Another World was just one moment in time. There is no way that Lemay's form of storytelling could succeed in a world where people are complaining that stories drag on if they don't get a reveal each week or say things are boring if there isn't a cliffhanger every day. Gloria Monty taught us that soaps didn't need long scenes or moments of quiet introspection as long as you kept the pace up and the stakes high.

People, especially older fans like me, like to point to certain moments or writers or producers that brought about the destruction of soap opera. But ultimately, it's all soap opera. Just because I loved Lemay's quiet, thoughtful style doesn't mean that it has any more or less value than the explosions and dopplegangers and murder trials and plotty plot plots. A soap is a continuing serialized dramatic story about love conquering all, there is no rule that states that one method of storytelling is more soapy or preferred than another method. It all about what you like and when you started watching soaps.

**Whatever the fuck that means!

Thanks R20/R27. I didn't begin watching AW until 1990, and honestly I get very tired of being harped at by Lemay stans. I've tried watching his era on YouTube, and while I appreciate it, I just don't find his characters interesting so I can't get involved in their character-driven drama. From what I can tell, AW took a dire nosedive in the early 80s (doubtless to due pressure to emulate that shitshow GH), but recovered by the late 80's. Late 80s/early 90s AW to me is the perfect balance of character-driven and plot, enacted by a vivid group of actors and characters. If you compare it with any other soap of the time, it's still miles ahead in quality on all fronts.

Donna Love made my pussy leak.

R28 = Eminem's condom contents

R28 needs a good swift kick in the cunt.

NOW! THIS! IS! ACTING! YOU! CUNTS!!!!!!!

In 1978, the entire NBC lineup was in horrendous shape. Prime time was a disaster. Only area where NBC did well was late night with Johnny Carson.

NBC Daytime was faltering. Game shows were doing OK in the ratings, but soaps took a nosedive.

NBC had been at the top of the daytime ratings in the early and mid 70s, but by 1978, everything was falling apart. NBC shows had been so compelling a few years earlier, but just felt stale by that time.

The Doctors was struggling to find its footing after HW Doug Marland, who'd given it renewed energy by introducing the Darcy family and expanding the Aldrich family, left to HW General Hospital for Gloria Monty.

Bill Bell had departed as Days of Our Lives HW in 1975, but the show, with Pat Falken Smith as HW, was still operating off his Bible. By 1978, Bell's Bible was exhausted and Falken Smith was gone. The show struggled to find its direction under a succession of writers. (in fact, the show wouldn't get its footing again until late 1981 when it brought back Pat Falken Smith and she introduced the Bradys and the DiMeras).

Pete Lemay was still HW at Another World, but he was showing major signs of burn out. He was scripting 3-4 episodes a week, plus plotting the entire show (read his book for details). However, his plots and characters weren't as exciting as they had been a few years earlier. Lemay's ego was badly bruised by the failure of his soap Lovers and Friends.

NBC foolishly decided to expand AW to 90 minutes in March 1979, which served to completely burn out Lemay and he was fired shortly after that. To fill the 90 minutes, AW brought in even more characters, too many for the audience to truly care about. The storylines weren't very compelling either, with a few notable exceptions like Janice poisoning Mac and Iris hiring Phillip Lyons to seduce Cecile away from her son Dennis.

At the same time, ABC soaps were on the upswing. ABC soaps were exciting and trendy, capturing the zeitgeist in a way that no soap operas ever day before. They were telling stories in different ways, adding a level of humor and introducing characters never before seen in the white, middle-class landscape of soaps. ABC had compelling antiheros like Marco Dane and Luke Spencer, eccentric, humorous characters like Billy Clyde Tuggle and Myrtle Lum. ABC also was doing several scenes within an act, so it felt like the show was moving faster. It was COOL to watch the ABC line up.

A lot of NBC viewers defected to ABC at that time. And while Days bounced back in the ratings, AW never really did.

The ABC lineup from the late 70s thru the early/mid 80s was pretty electrifying. Lot of innovative storytelling and wonderfully drawn characters. Even the low-rated P&G soap Edge of Night seemed more compatible with the compelling ABC soaps than it did with its duller-than-dirt P&G sister shows on the other networks.

And a giant ape! Don't forget, ABC had a giant ape!

So did AW

That Cass Winthrop made my netherregions all tingly.

Find somebody else to tingle your nether regions, Perry.

Mackenzie Cory was a member of the NRA and donated to Exodus International. So much for your unconditional loving replacement father!

Please eat shit for your Thanksgiving dinner, R39.

GH in the late 70s/80s made bold new choices and the viewers responded and it breathed new life into the genre. Days managed to do the same thing in the 90s. The problems with both turnarounds was that other writers and producers thought that copying what GH did in the 80s and what Days did in the 90s was the answer to their problems. What they didn't realize was that it wasn't the action adventure and save the world in the 80s or the gothic supernatural in the 90s that saved those shows. it was the bold and innovative approaches to telling love stories in a new way. People may have tuned in to see Luke save the world or Marlena float over her bed, but they stayed because Luke loved Laura and Marlena loved John. That's the core of soap opera and it just proves that when soaps stop playing it safe and start taking chances the audience will come.

It's a shame that The Edge of Night didn't survive. Because that's the soap you could make about a mobster, his moll, and his enforcer. And you have the Whitneys and their political dynasty. That's the soap that you should reboot. If only I had some a money and TV network.

[quote]Marlena loved John

Did she love him when he was Roman?

It's telling that for all of Lemay's character-driven material, it was his Sven kidnaps Rachel storyline near the end of his run that garnered his highest ratings.

Lemay's AW wasn't a slouch in the ratings, but people love murder and mayhem and all that. People in the past have commented that Douglas Marland was such successful HW and eclipsed Lemay because he managed to take what was so great about Lemay and just add plots to it.

And some people have argued that Lemay's style was only successful because Agnes Nixon's and Robert Cenedella's plots helped define the characters that Lemay inherited. A lot of people don't remember that Rachel and Iris were scheme-mates until Rachel caught the eye of Mac, then Iris lost her mind. Also another forgotten fun fact is that Rachel and Janice were friends and scheme-mates at one point.

That McInzey's voice was like ten-inch nails on a chalkboard. Awful, awful actress. One understands why she never won an Emmy. Totally overrated.

R45 True dat. Beverlee was TERRIBLE. Truly bad actress whose delivery was cringeworthy. That breathy voice. Ugh.

I miss my Guiding Light this time of year, with Bauers, Lewises, and Spauldings celebrating the holidays with family. I'll never forgive JFP for killing off Maureen. Never! I know it's been nearly 30 years, but I just can't let it go.

I know what you mean, R47. One Christmas, TCWRATWT* faked us out and made us believe Andy Dixon had come back to town at Christmas. I had never forgiven them for firing him, but when they fucked with us like that, I really wanted someone to cement-shoe them and push them off the Verazzano-Narrows.

WHO THE FUCK IS THIS CUNT? GET HER THE FUCK OUTTA MY EYELINE!!!!!

R43, the Sven/Helga storyline was nowhere near the end of Lemay’s run as headwriter.

Was Connie a predatory lesbian?

Connie and Irene Daily bumped their pussys together.

Irene Dailey was not a lesbian.

Hey y'all, how'd ya like t' hear some of my warblin'?

You take us away, R54.

What was "the horrible situation that happened earlier today" Felicia spoke of in the opening of R54?

The Sin Stalker dern near kilt me, R56! I had t' battle myself away from his clutches! That's why I done my "shout out" t' the guys and gals of Bay City, for all their s'port!

You take me away, Crystal.

Here, hun. Take a gander. Ya git t' see all mah actin' chops on display! Why, when that there Sin Stalker done grabbed me from b'hind, I wuz wishin' I had some of Loretta's Crisco on, I could have slid mahself right away from that varmint!

Irene Daily ate snatch.

Link please, r60.

I wish R45 and R46 would be trapped on a sinking boat.

With Alma Rudder.

[quote] Irene Daily ate snatch.

Yes, we know.

And Eileen Fulton clogged the toilets.

OMFG SO FUCKING FUNNY HAHAHAHAHAH.

When does your aide arrive to change your adult diaper?

Eileen made nasty shits that caused ATWT to go bankrupt. Plumbers had to be called. The senile old battleaxe now shits her diaper in a nursing home.

Harry Must Die!

Did Bug Eyes have Christine Jones fired because she was insanely jealous of her great beauty?

Bug eyes caught Connie Ford and Irene Dailey doing a 69 in Connie’s dressing room. Eating each other’s snatch like there was no tomorrow. Oh the sex that went on in 1268 East 14th Street!!!!

I didn't know this about Anthony Herrera! And Gaby Hoffman! Huh.

Aunt Lez was a lez.

Did Irene ever lap up Susan Keith, the first Cecile? I swear in their scenes together, she had a major crush on Keith and wanted to devour her. It was palpable in their early scenes.

You lick me to another world

Cecile LOVED my pussy.

Oooh that SEE-sill couldn't get enough of my aunt juice.

Was Maisie a lesbian? She acted butch. Aunt Liz would be all over her.

I'd rather talk to one of my plants.

This dude couldn't act worth a damn but he sure was pretty.

GL was doing those corny cowboy types for a while - Rusty and then Dylan.

Did Miranda Bishop move into Iris's house when Iris left for Texas? The "outdoor" part of the set was nearly identical to hers. I liked Judith McConnell and Miranda, thought she made a very good Iris "replacement", and had good chem with Doug and bug eyes, but the family they built around her contained some of the dullest actors in soap history.

I wonder why Ron Harper, who was a hot daddy, didn’t last long as Taylor Halloway. The actress who played Kit, Bradley Bliss, now goes by her real name Diane Bradley, had had several facelifts and works in the corporate world according to a friend of mind who met her earlier this year.

Is Judith McConnell a lez?

They tried to pair Ron Harper with Dorothy Lyman's Gwen, but they had absolutely no chemistry. Years later, Harper and Lyman would be paired as ex-spouses on Generations.

McConnell has been "BFFs" with Kathleen Noone for many years. You do the math!

Kathy Noone never married. Judith never married. Hmmmmmmmm

Get your mind out the gutter, Connie.

Many people lived in Iris' house after she moved to the penthouse.

As I recall, Mac and Janice lived there while they were married and Janice was secretly poisoning him (circa 1979-early 1980).

Miranda Bishop lived there for the year or so that she was in Bay City (circa 1980-early 1981).

Crooked club owner Jordan Scott rented the mansion and lived there with his then girlfriend Blaine Ewing (circa 1981).

Elena de Poulignac lived there in 1982 during the period that Maeve McGuire played the part. I believe Cecile lived with her there for a while too.

After that, I do not recall seeing the set again. It was probably re-purposed and transformed into the Love family mansion when the Loves started showing up in 1983.

Since this is almost all AW and has an AW title, can someone create a GL thread?

A loving request from.....

Yes, Miranda was intended to be the new Iris when they sent Iris to Houston.

Judith McConnell was great in the role. Had heart, but could be fierce when need be. Had some comic flair, but could be as nasty as needed.

Lots of long term potential for the character. They introduced her nicely as Kit's aunt, established a strong relationship between the two.

But then suddenly the entire Halloway family descended on Bay City seemingly overnight. Suddenly two relatively new characters who we liked (Kit and Miranda) were frontburnered and had all this family swirling around them. And this new family we didn't know seemed to take over the show for a while there.

It was too much too quick. If they Halloway family had been gradually introduced over a year's time, it might have worked. The Another World Home Page says Kit came in Nov 1979 followed by Miranda in March 1980. Then Taylor and Amy came to town in April 1980, followed by Rick in May 1980.

R85, would "Goodbye, My Friend" work as a title?

Regarding the Love family. Weren't they just one of those families that was just always in Bay City and we never saw them until we saw them? I mean, the Loves didn't move to Bay City did they?

We never saw anybody until we saw them, R88.

R87 It might be a wee bit confusing since it's also a song.

Maybe something about Laurel Falls? And Kelly's Speedo......

R88, I think the Loves moved to Bay City but I’m not 100% sure.

"You made us into a suburban cliche!"

Here's your thread, R92 R85

Mo Reardon was a dull-as-dirt character playing by a boringly low-key actress. Neither the character nor the actress was missed by anyone demographically desirable. Same thing with that Frankie Frame and her portrayer.

I was wondering if the cunt played tonight by r94 would show up. And look, she did.

Boring Ellen Parker's firing opened the doors for powerhouse Justin Deas to join the show. At the end of the day, Buzz was a much more iconic and beloved character than that blended-in-with-the-wallpaper Maureen, and Deas a much more inventive actor than run of the mill Parker. Maureen was dispensible, and JFP intuitively knew that. Oh and Bev McInz was a major cunt for quitting the way she did. She gleefully put one over on the producers. How lovely of her! Nevermind that no one forced her to act in daytime, which wound up proving incredibly lucrative for her, or that her leaving abruptly left her co-stars in story limbo and possibly jeopardized their jobs. Overrated hack!

The Maureen Bauer queens are getting their switchblades out R96.

Christ, one of the producers from the '80s, Joe Willmore, tried to fire Parker too. He wanted Ellen Dolan back and met with her secretly to secure a deal. Parker got wind of it, and did something to put a stop to it. Parker didn't exactly light up the screen. If they wanted to keep the Bauers front and center they should've hired more dynamic actors to play Maureen and Ed. As for Peter Simon, he telegraphed dull and boring. They should've hired someone with leading man looks, or at least someone reasonably attractive, to play Ed after Hulswit was axed. Someone like John McCook or James Storm or Frank Converse. Richard Van Vleet was an underrated Ed. He had great looks. And would it have killed them to hire an actual charismatic actress to play Maureen? Someone like Jamie Lynn Bauer or Deidre Hall would've filled the bill.

Elken Parker was soooooo boring. Even the focus groups that JFP listened to said that they would not miss Maureen if she was killed off. She was a non entity on the show.

The Bauers became really boring with the Ed/Mo recasts and the loss of Charita Bauer, Marsha Clark and Don Stewart. P&G should've pulled a Bill Bell move and just write off the Bauers into oblivion a la the Brooks and Fosters. The Bauers were pointless after the early 80s.

R94 - r100, not that you aren't welcome here in Bay City, but there's a dedicated Springfield thread now that needs to get a little more interesting.

Thanks R101!

Are Point Clair residents welcome to discuss the goings-on in our town while in Bay City?

Point Clair? As long as you don't mind certain Point Place residents putting their foot up your ass.

Just kidding. Where was Point Clair?

^^^It was the setting for the beloved Lovers & Friends.

And all 6 of its viewers remember it well

LOVERS & FRIENDS

Starring Future Soap Sensation MISS CHRISTINE JONES

as

Amy Gifford

[quote]We never saw anybody until we saw them, [R88].

No need to be an ass. I think the Loves and the McKinnons always lived in Bay City, but we just didn't see them. Like the Bradys on Days. I just wanted confirmation.

I didn't think they were being cunty in their answer, R108.

I think the point is that some characters are referenced for months or even years before we actually see them.

Ada talked about her next door neighbor Rose Perrini and son Joey Perrini for several years before the roles were cast and we saw them. On GL, Billy Lewis was mentioned for 2 years before the character showed up in town.

As far as the Loves and McKinnons go, we never heard mention of either family until the first members of each family showed up -- Peter Love in Dec 1982 and MJ McKinnon in Feb 1984. Those characters also established that their respective families had been in Bay City for years.

Is it true that David Oliver and Ellen Wheeler dated for a bit?

Dated? No.

However, Ellen may have bearded for David at some point when they needed to go to a fan or media event.

David was a big homo who had the aids.

It was difficult to believe the Loves and McKinnnons had been living in Bay City for years. Sigh, gone were the days when characters like were organically added to the canvass. I had the type of believable introduction they could never know.

Ellen was of course married to Tom Eplin.

I thought Eplin was walking sex when he first appeared on AW. One of my first teen crushes.

[quote]It was difficult to believe the Loves and McKinnnons had been living in Bay City for years. Sigh, gone were the days when characters like were organically added to the canvass. I had the type of believable introduction they could never know.

'THEY ARE INTERRUPTED BY THE OPENING OF THE DOOR AND RACHEL'S ENTRANCE. HER DRESS IS NOT HIGH CAMP YET SHE CERTAINLY LEANS MUCH MORE TOWARD THE OUTRE THAN THE REST OF OUR YOUNG GALS. IN THE POCKET OF HER COAT OR IN THE POCKET OF HER TOTE BAG SHE HAS A FOLDED NEWSPAPER. WE SEE IT BUT IT ISN'T DISPLAYED PROMINENTLY. THERE IS, AT HER ENTRANCE, AN IMMEDIATE SIGN FROM ADA FOR SAM TO KEEP QUIET.'

Rachel: (Intro Line) "Hi."

Ada: "Oh, hello, honey. Did you have a nice day?"

Rachel: "[SHE FALLS DOWN INTO A CHAIR] I had a long day. Modeling dull clothes for dull people."

Ada: "Oh, this was the fashion show for the Hospital Benefit?"

Rachel: "Uh huh... and there were only four of us and we had to change ten times apiece."

Ada: "Oh, you poor baby. I'll get you some coffee."

Rachel: "No, I don't want any. Just tell me when we're getting out of here? Huh, Uncle Sammy? When are Mom and me leaving for Hollywood? [TAKE ADA LOOKING QUICKLY TO SAM AND WE FADE OUT]"

An interesting link.....

Most Ruined Character: Donna Love

(sorry, BNSD. Just sharing as it was printed! Smooches!)

Donna Love had a smelly pussy.

Why am I not talked about more?

Best intro EVAH!

THIS is the best intro EVAH.

Sometimes it feels like my eyes are gonna pop RIGHT out of my head.

Why, that R122 feller sounds like a real cunt.

Crystal, Butcher Holler is hollering your name.

Also, 1888 called and it wants its hair back.....

You forgot Clark, r123

Who can keep up, dear?

F off Serial asshole retard nutcase.

The Eyes Have It

Michael actually looks kinda hot here, for once.

And BNSD!

Isn't that Anna Stuart, R130?

Nope. Take my word for it. That ain't Anna Banana.

It's Philece Sampler. I liked the Philece incarnation of Donna.

Who is it? Philece? It doesn't look like Philece.

Well, whaddya know? At least I didn't have my ORD and my BNSD confused.

She looks as if she could be Lisa Grady's older sister in that picture.

No offense BNSD but Philece was a horrible recast. If they wanted her so badly they should have made her a recast Nicole Love.

I hate this period of the show; Maggie DePriest was a horrible headwaiter (as she proved in the mid-90s when she returned to the show and did yet another serial killer story and killed off Frankie). She killed off or wrote out longtime characters like Larry, Clarice, Sally and Liz; she gave us the atrocious Mary McKinnon/Reginald Love story--Reginald was like a low budget James Stenbeck. She brought back the leaden Mitch Blake-god he annoyed me, his acting was terrible and having to play scenes with Victoria Wyndham and Doug Watson made that more apparent. She left dangling the idea that Donna had a third child (possibly Scott Lasalle), which nobody bothered to resurrect in the future.

Harding Lemay's return really made this show shine again. From the summer of 1988 - summer 1989 the show was fantastic, and underrated. The 25th anniversary episodes and Mac's funeral were exceptional. I wonder how the show would have faired if he had stayed on; or if Doug Marland or Nancy Curlee had taken over.

Don't forget me. Especially you, Donna.

Wow, that GL thread blew through 600 and yet sadly we are stuck in the one hundreds here....

as always I remain truly yours,

I was a STAH!

Wheres the new GL thread bitches?

You make me fly so high!

Time to light up and visit Miss Rachel!

So why did McKinsey go to GL instead of rejoining AW to play her signature character Iris?

[QUOTE]Maggie DePriest was a horrible headwaiter

That, too? When I was a waiter, and looking for a writing job, I would often reflect on how I wanted to "just change one letter."

R141, I thought someone already started one. The headline must have been too subtle.

The worst kick in the cunt to AW

[quote] So why did McKinsey go to GL instead of rejoining AW to play her signature character Iris?

They weren't looking to bring back Iris in 1984. Bev needed to work (she had a dying husband) and GL called.

Bev should have been by her dying husband’s side and not looking for work. Cunt.

BNSD never takes offense.

I just remember dying laughing when someone referred to her as "Brand New Sexy Donna" and started using that.

Truth be told, I'm Team Anna Banana.

You know I love you, BNSD! I only give you Cecile level side eye occasionally.

BTW, kids, the new GL thread is as attached.

Victoria Wyndham's Instagram Account

Thanks, R152.

She looks great.

And she's a very talented artist. Knows her mediums.

I love that R12 posted THE scene.

Rachel was so sweet for so long but Wyndham was shockingly good as the hateful Rachel here.

I know Courtney has her fans, but in half the scenes I see of her, I swear she's reading from cue cards or scripts. Distracting.

DAMN RACHEL WAS A CUNT! You can see the similarities in her character and Anne Heche’s Vicky. They should have played with that more after she gave birth to Steven.

Damn, those performances @r155 were atrocious. Ridiculously over the top and amateurish. On par with the worst acting moments from Valley of the Dolls. It didn't help that the dialogue was god-awful. Who was the HW during this period?

Vicky W was always so homely! Just ugly.

The eyes are about to pop out that bitch's head!

12 Months of Another World

Bur what does Beverly Penberthy's Nephew have to say about R160?

I think of AW, GL, and ATWT as sister P&G soaps. Why did GL and ATWT thrive creatively and commercially in the '80s and into the '90s, while AW could never really it together after falling into a ratings and creative abyss circa 1980?

R162 NBC wanted it to fail.

NBC tried to bury it for 20 years? That doesn't make sense.

I don't know about 1980, r164, but I heard that things were bad between NBC and P&G during the 1990s. I was doing a daytime writers' workshop, and I heard NBC refused to hire me because someone at P&G wanted me. I always wondered why Jill didn't invite me to become an FOJ.

AW had some fits and starts creatively after 1980, but not much sustainable or very memorable or ratings-sparking, except maybe for the Sally/Catlin storylines in 1984 and 1985. The ratings were mostly awful for pretty much its last 20 years on the air.

NBC kept trying to make AW into DOOL in the 80s and beyond, which would never work after what AW became in the 70s.

I happened to start watching in 1988, which I would eventually learn was during a writers strike, at which time Pete Lemay was rumored to be writing the show. It was so good. Class conflict courtesy of Cory v. Frame, Matthew and Jocee (as Sharlene pronounced it) this time around. I always loved a good haves/have nots story and I was hooked on day one. I didn't stop watching for quite a while. I loved Vicky (Anne Heche), Rachel, Ada, Donna—all the characters, really. I got hooked on ATWT sometime in 1990, IIRC, and that was truly compelling.

Remember the AW version of DeMaupassant's "The Necklace"? Remember how Ada was Jake's only friend for awhile? Jake was the perfect embodiment of the old "strivers" theme. Remember Jake and Donna eating deli one day in his studio, and him asking her if she wants his pickle? How did they get through that without laughing their asses off? Remember Donna trying to eat pizza? Or spelling "M-I-N-G" for Courtney the Cop? It had many great moments between 1988 and the time they introduced Justine, and later that Lumina shit (shades of DOOL?)

NBC Daytime was at the top of the ratings fir the first half of the 1970s. By the late 1970s, the entire daytime lineup was in creative and ratings freefall. As early as 1981, it was rumored that NBC was considering cancelling its entire daytime lineup.

Days had a resurgence in 1982 when Pat Falken Smith returned as HW and introduced the Brady's and DiMeras. Using the supercouple formula, Days surged in the ratings throughout the 80s, but the rest of the NBC daytime lineup did not.

Rumors continued to persist that NBC was considering cancelling AW and the rest of the line up. By the 1990s, NBC wanted AW gone and did its best to sabotage the show.

I killed Frankie Frame! I can't imagine why it didn't make AW a YUGE hit again!!!

I think NBC, P&G, or whoever decided to make AW more compatible with DAYS when that show was having its renaissance in the mid/late-80s, but it just didn't work. The Reginald Love nonsense was clearly someone's idea to make the show more DAYS-like, but it played like a bus and truck version of Stefano DiMera. Then came that awful Beauty and the Beast knockoff and later Justine, which were really desperate attempts to attract the DAYS audience. I can't think of any show that underwent such a long and consistent identity crisis. When you think about it, it's amazing AW lasted as long as it did after the bottom fell out in 1979.

BREAKING NEWS: Jackie Courtney wins for "best single performance" at the first annual Afternoon TV Awards. Take that, Pete LeMay!!!

Jackie Courtney was a dreadful actress. Her and her on screen mother both.

Pete LeMay was right.

[quote] I can't think of any show that underwent such a long and consistent identity crisis. When you think about it, it's amazing AW lasted as long as it did after the bottom fell out in 1979.

It's true. Look at the number of head writers and executive producers from 1980 to the end.

Even if you take away the first few years, where Rauch was still there, 1984 forward was a new direction for the show every six months to a year. Chased away all but the most hardcore fans.

ATWT and GL has people like Marland and Long to stabilize those shows and reinvent them a bit in order to bring them into the '80s. They had vision, created many memorable characters and storylines, and brought the shows accolades. AW never really had that type of HW after Lemay. By 1980 its best days were behind it. I'm not saying that AW didn't have its moments or bring on strong performers after 1980, but none of it seemed sustainable.

It's no coincidence that in later years, the most creative juice AW even HAD was from Lemay's late 80's bible. They used his long term projections (while showing him the door) and some of the story done at that time fueled the show until the end.

I wonder what kind of demos the show had its last 20 years. Certainly, it was consistently low rated in terms of # of households, but I wonder if it had a decent 18-49 demo rating to keep it afloat for a long time past its prime.

It was always #9, r177, out of either 10 or 11. The total viewership was around 3.9. I don't remember the "in the demo" rating, but it was well below 3.0 IIRC.

Sometimes a head writer leaves such a mark on a show that it takes the show forever to recover after that writer has left, if it recovers at all. Think of Bill Bell and Jim Reilly at Days, Irna at World Turns, Y&R is still trying to find it's identity, and of course Lemay at AW. There were some brights spots at AW post Lemay, but nothing lasted more than a year or two at the most. The return of Iris was great. Evan Bates was a good nod to history. Rachel and Carl made no sense given the history, but it worked and was engaging. Sharly was a lot of fun. Marly's rape. Who Shot Jake. All great moments, but they couldn't sustain it for some reason.

NBC wanted a show more compatible with Days. What they should have done was keep AW at at it's 3:00 PM EST slot. And the lineup should have been Days, Santa Barbara, and then AW. SB would have benefitted from being between two established shows, but also SB was the great middle ground between Days and AW.

[quote]Marley's rape.

I found it impossible to believe Jake would rape Marley.

In its last years, JFP was the ONLY one who raised the 18-49 demos. Read the SON ratings archives. She even raised viewership so much so that AW beat GL in viewers for awhile. Once Savitz came on, demos dropped dramatically. AW’s last glory in ratings and demos was under JFP. Savitz and that asshole Goutman were the final nails.

JFP decided to turn the show into an amalgam of ER, NYPD Blue, and Melrose Place. It wasn't my cup of tea, but at least she had a plan and a vision, which I can respect.

You really can't blame Goutman. He came on with a mandate to make the show more compatible with Days and Passions. The show was about to be cancelled, and even a Marland or a Nixon couldn't have saved it by that point. He gets a lot of flack about ATWT, but he was able to preserve the show's core and keep it somewhat recognizable till the end.

I stopped watching in 1996, IIRC. I actually didn't mind Justine, as her presence showed us a whole different side of VW. But when they started with the Lila and Bobby Reno—hello, Sam Fowler I—I was gone. I knew it was stupid the way they kept us from seeing Lila's face for three weeks, as if she were a character from the past we'd recognize. But Lisa Peluso had never been on AW. And then there was Eterna.

Was it Jill who foisted Bobby Reno on us?

There were a million ways to make AW more compatible with Days while allowing it to be true to itself.

[quote]He gets a lot of flack about ATWT, but he was able to preserve the show's core and keep it somewhat recognizable till the end.

If, by "preserve the show's core," you mean "move everyone into the Yardley Motel," then yes, Goutman did a stellar job. I step on his circle whenever I see it at CMU.

I loved Lila's Blanche DuBois schtick and how she was terrified of thunderstorms. A fascinating character and the type of character the show needed.

[quote]A fascinating character and the type of character the show needed.

Said no one ever, except Michael Malone and R187.

LOL R188. I'm R187 and that made my day. Thank you for that. Love ya!!

Ginny Dwyer with Jackie's magnificient hair.

R189 Weren't Lila and Bobby Reno leftover characters for the soap Michael Malone and Josh Griffith were putting together for Fox at 11 PM that never got made? Also, do you remember their Bay City connection?

I do love whoever it was here that posted a year or so ago about letting their hair down and pulling a Sharly.

I still LOL at that.

I don't think it was me, R192, though that's something I might have thought.

My understanding is that when Michael Malone left OLTL in late 1995/early 1996, he and Josh Griffin wrote a Bible for a gothic soap opera set in New Orleans. It was called 13 Bourbon Street and proposed to air nightly at 11 p.m. on Fox. Linda Gottlieb was supposed to EP.

Fox decided not to pick up the show. When Malone took over as AW headwriter in spring 1997, he recycled several of the plots from the gothic soap. Among them was Lila Roberts (who would have fit perfectly on a gothic soap) and making Bobby Reno into Shane Roberts (a plot development RKK was said to hate).

[quote]making Bobby Reno into Shane Roberts (a plot development RKK was said to hate).

I can only imagine what Sam Fowler would have thought.

NBC and/or P&G should've pulled the plug on AW in the late 80s, before it entirely lost all sense of dignity and its identity.

I enjoyed it from 1988 until Jenna showed up, r196.

John and Sharlene's 1988-89 courtship was one of the more involving love stories that I've seen done on a soap.

After a while, it felt like just "going out to visit the farm."

I loved Jake and Vicky, too. And Jake and Donna. And Jake and Ada.

This is the period the Days influence really starts to shine through, the Feb sweeps '89 episode of Jason Frame is killed by Felicia "Fanny" Gallant... Stefano DiMera and his velvet mask would have seemed right at home in these episodes.

I remember being a kid and watching Reginald go out the window and take Donna with him.

Felicia spends time in the joint.

Why did Linda Dano butcher her face?

Linda's facelift was still holding up beautifully when she did the soap actors workshop in 2007.

David Forsyth looked so sexy here. Yum, daddy.

Loved John and Sharlene. Their relationship seemed so real.

That is, until it hit the "crazy psychiatrist attempting to gaslight you back into your multiple personalities" phase.

r205, Forsyth is gross, with all that icky facial hair. Disgusting.

MISS R207 HAS STATED HER BOUNDARIES

Ass hole Serial nutcase is a mess. He’s off his meds again. Ugh. Stupid retard.

Blaine's all like, "Damn, couldn't I have my own wedding?"

I thought Douglass Watson was sexy as an older daddy, but he was quite handsome when he was younger. He looks almost a bit like Justin Trudeau (or vicey versey).

Lovely picture of Blaine the bride @r210 standing next to the horse-drawn carriage that took her to the church.

Fans of the divine Carmen Duncan (Iris) might want to check her work in the movie Skin Deep, also starring "Aussie Skye Chandler" Antoinette Byron. It's actually a dreadful soap opera pilot from 1983 that was dug up and given a hefty upgrade because it happened to be the acting debut of a young up-and-comer named Nicole Kidman. Like Return to Eden only worse.

That Brillo pad with hair in R213's photo is Nicole Kidman??!!!???? Wow, she's had her entire face reconstructed.

I thought that was Another World's Jane Cameron with a dye job @ R213.

^WELL. YOU. FUCKING. THOUGHT. WRONG. YOU. DUMB. CUNT.

R216 = Alma Rudder on the rag

Perry Hutchins had the aids, ya know.

Oh Olive. Don't you have a house to burn down?

Hey, y'all, ah bump inta Nicole Kidman all the time in Nashville, and that there's no Nicole Kidman at R213!

Time for someone to cut that bitch's hair!

A Mac Cory toast to you all. Happy holidays.

And one to you, too, Mac, and all the Corys.

Some AW chat from the ATWT thread, posting it here:

does anyone remember Another World's 25th anniversary shows from (gulp!) 1989?

A slew of Matthews (Alice, Russ, Pat) returned as did Iris' ex Robert Delaney and son Dennis.

Gwen Frame - re-written, which was odd since the rest of the history stuff was spot on; I think maybe another returnee didn't come through so Gwen had to take on the role of troublemaker, was also back.

We got Janice Frame and Steve Frame in ghost appearances, too.

I don't understand why TPTB didn't try to rejuvenate the Matthews clan given how great everyone looked.

I always felt AW tanked because it lost its history. By the time the show went off the air, the only characters from the 70s were Rachel and Amanda.

You look at the great endings GL gave its viewers: Phillip and Beth back together; Rick and Mindy together; Fletcher taking Alex on a trip; Ed and Holly going on a cruise; Billy and Vanessa re-married; Blake and Frank were paired together. "Otalia" were allowed to hold hands even! Lots of 'little' moments, too; Lillian visiting Maureen's grave. Nola's farewell look to Company.

RIP, AW; you died long before you went off the air.

and the second AW mention:

[quote] Gwen Frame - re-written, which was odd since the rest of the history stuff was spot on; I think maybe another returnee didn't come through so Gwen had to take on the role of troublemaker, was also back.

I've heard that Willis Frame was intended to be the character to attack Rachel, but the actor (Leon Russom) declined. So the writers gave the plot point to his wife Gwen. Would have made a lot more sense if it was Willis.

So the anniversary was before his on screen death.....but after Douglass Watson died in real life?

R227, yes, those actors had to go on with their characters saying Mac was across town at a hotel and he didn't want to see Iris while they knew in real life he was never coming back.

The show never recovered from this though I did like the following Felicia/Mitch/Rachel triangle.

Carl Hutchins had tried KILLING Mac and Rachel in the mid-80s so his redemption never sat with me; Keating was a nice man though. Met him once.

[quote]Carl Hutchins had tried KILLING Mac and Rachel in the mid-80s so his redemption never sat with me;

Character-wise it made no sense, but Wyndham and Keating worked so well together that I suspended my disbelief and went with it. Until Rachel adopted that faux Elizabethan accent and started dressing like the White Witch. I blamed Carl.

The Gwen rewrite thing was the show looking to capitalize on snagging Dorothy Lyman and get some ratings by Opal-fying her. Gwen was such a dull character, and you can't blame an anemic, ratings-thirsty show like AW for wanting to play up Dorothy's signature character of Opal.

My mother was part of the huge group protest when the amazing Carole Shelley was dumped when McKunty decided to return to the show after a break. So many fans had come to love Carole's interpretation of Iris, her wonderful chemistry with the other actors, and her charisma. They were understandably devastated when McKunty returned and Carole was let go. It's in the records as one of the largest mass protests ever for a TV series.

LOL at R231.

She tried it.

The divine Carole as Iris. What an incredible presence...and no affected voice. She was able to elevate the trite dialogue, not to mention the performances of Russom and Lyman, who had been phoning it in the past six months, in a way that McFlimsy could never have done. You don't phone it in when La Shelley is around. She forces you to bring your A game.

OMG ! Shelley!

That awful voice! I can SEE the acting! She's so over the top! Whoever thought this woman is good! Did she ever work in soaps again? Gee, I can see why not! The way she wears those clothes! She's soooooo affected! Who could possibly prefer this woman to such legendary greats as Kristen Meadows, Mary Page Keller, Kristi Ferrell, Ally Walker, Beth Ehlers, and Teri Ann Linn!

and that hair! it's sooo distracting! Iris doesn't have red hair.

Every time I see her, I say, "Get out!"

Whiney McKunty was over worked on all the soaps. Oh poor her. They worked the bitch too hard. LOL. What a cunt.

TEXAS

Starring

Carole Shelley

McKinsey was worked a lot; and she delivered every single time.

The shows have always been in the power position; actors have gone to shows saying "I'm buying a condo/house...but let me know if I shouldn't" and most times they're told everything's fine; and then boom! They're let go 6 weeks later.

McKinsey, I heard, expressed her concerns about her workload with the show and they're like 'read your contract" and she went "no, YOU read my contract."

Plus, she had health issues. She gave us incredible performances and now may she rest in peace.

These shows allowed her to live a pretty luxurious lifestyle. No one put a gun to her head to force her to stay on AW and GL all those many years or take the starring role in Texas. They also allowed her to play the nepotism card and get her son in the industry, and years later when she needed to maintain her health insurance, the producers of GH were right there to give her a cameo to accomplish that, despite her shenanigans at GL. RIP, but she sounds like a totally entitled and unhappy human being.

McKunty was a whiner. Lazy old bitch. She had 6 weeks in a row off every year on GL plus other shorter vacations and she never worked 5 days a week. What the fuck else did she want? Bitch got what she deserved.

The GL people are now inhabiting the AW thread. The AW people took over the ATWT thread. Oakdalians overwhelmed the Springfield thread. Maybe we need to return to "Midwestern Towns" next time around.

I get your point R238, but nobody also put a gun to the producers heads who kept renewing her deals, offered her the lead on Texas, okay'd the vacation clauses in her contracts, or offered her a short term deal to keep her health insurance.

The viewers McKinsey helped bring to GL allowed those producers and writers to enjoy nice lifestyles, too.

And what parent WOULDN'T try to help their kid get in the business? What if she HADN'T tried? Then, she'd be labeled a Mommie Dearest.

Maybe it's the producers who play havoc with the lives of actors who are entitled?

Anyone can look at the same situation from the opposite view and be just as correct.

LOTS of people helped their kids get in the biz:

"No one put a gun to her head to force her to stay on AW and GL"

Yeah, but posters keep bitching about her perfectly legitimate decision to walk away when she did. You can't have it both ways.

R240 Yes, perhaps next time we'll do just that!

The cunt is long since DEAD! Let’s celebrate that!!! Karma got that bitch. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I'm in the mood for some Janice Frame and St. Croix today. VW's ninja moves as Rachel sneaks into the house kill me every time.

I was watching this recently; solid stuff. Lemay had left at this point; He wrote in his book that when he started watching the show it was about Caroline poisoning Pat, and now it was about Janice poisoning Mac.

Boy, Rachel really loved Mac.

William Grey Espy was incredibly photogenic and handsome.

Janice saying she didn't want Mac anymore she wanted Rachel was creepy.

A little lesbionic.

Shows don't do subtle stuff like that today.

That's the first time I'd seen Carole Shelley's scenes as Iris.

She's overwrought in the revelation scenes that Janice is dead, but very good in scenes after where she confesses her part in some plot to Mac. I can definitely see why she was chosen as a fill in for Bev.

Carmen Duncan was a talented enough actress, but I never bought her as Iris. I thought she read on screen about ten years younger than she needed to be.

And Australian.

[quote]William Grey Espy was incredibly photogenic and handsome.

And a horrible, horrible, horrible actor.

[quote]Carmen Duncan was a talented enough actress, but I never bought her as Iris.

Since I had not watched before 1988, I found Carmen Duncan a wonderful Iris. And Bev was over in Springfield at 3, so I got the best of two of the Midwestern Towns (plus Lady Eyesabuggin, Connie Kickinthecunt, and ORD, of course).

LOVED Carmen.

But not as Iris. Or Lisa for that matter.

Seriously, she'd have been great as someone else; not sure who AW could have/should have gotten as a recast Iris circa 87 or 88, whenever it was.

Couldn't Bev had done BOTH Alex and Iris?

Oh, that's right. She hated to work.

[quote]Couldn't Bev had done BOTH Alex and Iris?

That would have been a hell of a commute.

[quote]Janice saying she didn't want Mac anymore she wanted Rachel was creepy.

I never tire of watching the St. Croix climax but I wish there was more available of the days on the island leading up to it ... I was just a kid, but I remember being entranced with every aspect of it, from the moment Rachel stepped off the plane into the sunshine.

P&G must have had some deal with St. Croix.

That was Steve and Alice's go to place years before Janice took Mac there.

R245 I read your comment before watching that clip and LOL'd at Rachel's "ninja" moves.

I will say that I always kind of thought that Carmen Duncan was kind of an attempt to make Iris a bit Alexis Colby. Hoping the reintroduced character would hit in the same way.

Which is really full circle since supposedly, the Shapiros created Alexis Carrington in homage to Iris, who was at the time of introduction to Bay City Iris Carrington.

I'd read that before, that Iris inspired Alexis; when Joan Collins did GL she gave an interview in which she said Alexandra, who debuted in 1984, was inspired by Alexis.

If I'd been the interviewer I don't know if I would have had the guts to inform her that Alexis as inspired by Iris Carrington.

Someone should write a play about egomaniacal, high-maintenance divas like McKinsey, Hubbard, Strasser, Dickson, Rowell, Eileen Fulton, and Connie Ford being trapped in a room together.

Hubbard would be the last one standing.

McCunty croaked off. Thank GOD!

[quote] Hubbard would be the last one standing.

Darling!

Fuck you asshole retard Scholar. Get a friend. Stop being a miserable cunt.

I know this is not popular sentiment, but I think Doug Watson was a very hammy actor and highly overrated. I just couldn't believe that a lusty character like Rachel would fall for someone with no sex appeal, especially remembering how Strasser played the role. My favorite actor on the show was Timothy Gibbs. He had had that combination of talent and rugged good looks. He reminded me of George Reinholt, just more talented and more masculine looking than Reinholt. Gibbs embodied the traits that would attract a Rachel type. Watching Gibbs on screen, you just want him to fuck you, something Watson was NEVER able to accomplish.

Fair points R264.

Rachel must have seen something else in Mac.

She had two loveless un-exciting marriages with struggling intern Russ Matthews and drug dealer Ted Clark. Then, the tumultuous marriage to Steve, who gave her everything -- sex, money, excitement. After that ended, perhaps she was looking for something different: stability. Rachel's dad had walked out on the family so there was that part of her that was looking for a dad. And who knows? Once the whole Iris feud began maybe Rachel was sticking around just to win.

They touched upon Rachel and Mitch after Mac died, but Espy didn't stick around long enough for that to play out.

I never cared for the guys they brought on after and that included Carl. Talk about over the top!

Gibbs is very hot. Alas, he's about as tall as I am and I'm maybe 5'7"

Douglass Watson had a very theatrical stage presence.

He was more subtle than the early TV soap actors, and more varied, but I'm sure he would be seen as hammy through the eyes of someone who is used to a more 21st century, casual delivery style.

That being said, he WAS considered naturalistic in his day. It's very proscenium acting style.

I'm not saying you're wrong R264. It's just a different style. And yes, Gibbs was hot.

R250, I know; he and Ronn Moss made a lot of money, especially Ronn, off their looks.

Life's such a roll of the dice.

I was so happy when McClumsy left AW. Who on earth thought she could carry a brand new soap? Iris' storyline on Texas was the least interesting.

McBreathy was a disaster on Texas. The show got better after she left.

[quote] Douglass Watson had a very theatrical stage presence.

I recall an interview with RKK where he said that in the 50's, Watson was known as "the American Olivier." He must have gotten on well with the other old Shakespearean, Charles Keating. (I know CK gets a lot of flak on DL for hammyness, but I loved him. And I do think that he could play subtlety when required -- but the script very seldom required it of him.)

R264, I loved Timothy Gibbs too - especially when John Bolger was on as Gabe. I thought the two of them had great chemistry (and provided me with jerk off fantasy material),

Bolger was one of the only highlights of the awful mid 90s era.

R271 Agreed. The virility was off the charts.

I mentioned this a while back. This is going back about 10-12 years. One summer at the Jersey shore, Timothy Gibbs was staying at the same hotel as me. The hotel had a communal office space and we were both in there doing some work. He was so incredibly handsome (TV didn't do him justice), had a gorgeous tan, and was wearing a dress shirt with shorts and boat shoes. He kept the shirt unbuttoned to reveal a beautiful chest. Also was sporting a 2-day stubble. He had a raw sexuality about him, total embodiment of testosterone and masculinity. Stunningly beautiful man in person.

R274, nice to hear he's even better looking in person. I remember there being a different actor who played Gary later and he was incredibly handsome too. That lucky bitch Josie!

Oh I just remembered that Timothy's real life brother would appear sometimes as Officer Tibbs. God I wanted him too!

So yeah AW definitely had a lot of problems in the 90s but there WERE some bright spots.

[quote]I remember there being a different actor who played Gary later and he was incredibly handsome too.

John Littlefield was no Tim Gibbs.

[quote] I will say that I always kind of thought that Carmen Duncan was kind of an attempt to make Iris a bit Alexis Colby. Hoping the reintroduced character would hit in the same way. Which is really full circle since supposedly, the Shapiros created Alexis Carrington in homage to Iris, who was at the time of introduction to Bay City Iris Carrington.

Knots Landing almost did an exact remake of the "Iris as the Chief" storyline. A matter of weeks after the chief was revealed to be Iris, Abby Ewing was revealed to be the head of the mysterious Morikame cooperation used to cover up the shady dealings at Lotus Point.

I highly doubt Knots was leveraging storylines from AW. LMAO.

No wonder Walter loved AW, R277. KL was his favorite show.

R276, I thought he was hot but you're right, he was no Tim Gibbs.

Another hottie in the 90s was the Dennis they had at the time, Chris Bruno.

Chris Bruno was scorching. I used to JO off to him when he was on AMC.

I could have gotten into Dary, R280.

Yes indeed.

The show had its problems, but these guys were all enjoyable. (Well, I never cared for Ryan, but I know he had plenty of fans...)

I hated the Harrisons, except Ryan.

Mark Pinter and his cheating cock.

Colleen was married to someone else when she started cheating with Mark so there’s plenty of shit in her closet too.

I loved Ryan. So hot.

Ask HBS about CZP.

Honey, I'm the one who shared the dirt about Hillary's crusade against Colleen here. You ain't telling any of us what we don't already know.

I heard that Margaret Reed was no fan of Colleen either, but I see they're FB friends. Rumor was that Colleen pissed a lot of people off, though I know she was tight with Byrne, Dolan, Fulton, Maura, and Michael Park Not sure why another soap didn't scoop her up after ATWT was cancelled, but maybe she didn't want to leave the east coast.

I suspect most people most people like CZP now because they were not there for the feud with HBS or who were always on her side or who got over it. The only folks who were really on HBS's side were Ben Hendrickson and Scott Holmes. One died (and was an addicted mess) and the other hardly worked on the show in the later years.

Yeah I heard there was tension with Hendrickson and Colleen, but whatever the issue was, they worked well together and had good chemistry. I always had the feeling that Hendrickson preferred working with HBS and Ellen Dolan as his romantic screen partner rather than Colleen. Scott Holmes?!?! Wasn't he spotted at bathhouses, or was that Michael Park?

R293 I've always heard that about Michael Park. But there's no way Scott Holmes isn't gay.

Wait! Scott Holmes is gay? Never heard that one. He's been married to the same women for nearly 45 years, so I highly doubt that. I can't wrap my head around the fact that he's in his mid-60s? He always had a youthful look, and I remember him when he was on Ryan's Hope.

R295, John Travolta's been married to the same woman for over 25 years....

I couldn't imagine doing that to a woman.

You know, marry her.

I feel guilty I took a girl to our high school proms.

You fat fraus think that everyone is gay. Morons.

HBS hated Zenk’s cheating ways.

No, R298, fat fraus tend to insist everyone is NOT gay. Watch a scene of ATWT with Tom. Scott Holmes is as gay as Danny Pintauro.

Anyway, sorry for clogging up the AW thread with this. We could be talking about HBS, CZP and Scott Holmes on the Holden Snyder's Saddle thread.

On this thread I can argue with someone about the fact that Larry Lau is gay.

Does anyone remember Margie Impert as Rachel?

[quote]On this thread I can argue with someone about the fact that Larry Lau is gay.

Weren't all the adult Jamies except Stephen Yates gay?

Did Richard Bekins and David Oliver ever hook up? That would've been hot. Though, poor David! I'm glad Richard never suffered that awful fate.

David had the aids. Slept with loads of men. He took alot of loads too.

David Oliver was gorgeous.

Yes, the ATWT talk is here. Leave poor Lady Carmargo to her own devices, dear.

[quote] On this thread I can argue with someone about the fact that Larry Lau is gay.

He is.

Click

dial tone

goodbye

I want to be passed around by all the Jamies

R308, even Bobby Doran?

But all the Jamies were gay.

Larry Lau sucked my cock.

Of the four adult Jamies, Stephen Yates was the least memorable.

He aired for two years, 83-85, but I can't remember a single storyline his Jamie was involved in.

In fact, about the only thing I remember of Yates is his first appearance -- arriving at the double wedding of Mac and Rachel and Sandy and Blaine, driving an old beat up truck, wearing short shorts and a tank top. His arrival starts at 4:30 in the video below.

R309 To clarify - the adult Jamies. LOL

Oh yeah......David Canary was no Steve Frame.

Like 1989, 1984 was a year when the show seemed to start jelling again. Kathleen/Cass/Cecile, Sally/Catlin, Donna and Felicia camping it up...the show was starting to reach into its history by reintroducing Alice Frame and Nancy. But within a year it started falling apart again. Why was this show not able to regain its footing after Lemay left? They had several writers and producers in the 80s and 90s that had good track records on other shows who weren't able to repeat that success on Another World. Was the issue primarily NBC?

I wonder what would have happened if Doug Marland and Robert Calhoun ended up at Another World instead of As The World Turns in 1985. I would imagine Doug Marland would have loved writing the complicated older female characters on Another World, like Rachel or Donna.

I wonder why Marland never wanted to go to AW. He actually was one of Lemay's subwriters in the 1970s, so it would have been a decent match.

In many ways, though, AW had a very specific balance in the Lemay years. The other shows had several stars or leads, but AW always felt to me like the Rachel show. That was a little different after a few years where Cass, Felicia and Donna took root, but that kind of took a little while. It may have been more attractive for Doug to explore all the connections and still-intact history at ATWT.

^I think a lot of it came down to ratings. The show languished near the bottom from 1980 and on, and NBC and P&G were throwing anything and everything against the wall to see what would stick. Then there was the issue of trying to make it more compatible with Days, which was on fire for much of the 80s and 90s. GL and especially ATWT were just healthier shows ratings wise, so not as much tinkering was done there.

Was Doug even offered AW? I thought P&G gave him a choice between GL and ATWT after Loving had flopped.

Why did Another World crash and burn in the late 70s? It was the top-ranked soap in the 77-78 season, then tumbled to 8th in the 78-79 season.

Interestingly, both Lemay and Marland brought on similar families to their respective shows; Lemay, the poor Frames; Marland, the poor Snyders.

I would have LOVED to have seen Doug eventually go to AW, maybe 92 or 93 (and I wish he'd lived!)

I really think he would have rejuvenated the Matthews and Frames. Hugh Marlowe died in 1982, but we still had Aunt Liz, Alice, Pat, Russ...he might have done the mother taking the blame on the witness stand for a murder the daughter committed (or a variation on that theme that he did at GH and GL) with maybe Pat or Alice or even Rachel.

What Doug did on ATWT was create real family units.

You felt like you were being welcomed into these families' homes.

Check out the Christmas Eve episode from 1985 of ATWT.

Harding Lemay is trying to convince NBC to revive AW!

[quote]Why did Another World crash and burn in the late 70s?

The 90-minute episodes were a disaster. Lemay introduced a bunch of new characters and none of them were particularly interesting. There was so much filler -- scenes would open with 60 seconds of Clarice sweeping a floor or Rachel playing with Amanda before anything happened. At the same time, time-slot competitor General Hospital was staring to fire on all cylinders, first with Scotty and Laura and then the introduction of Luke.

Yeah, the 90 minute episodes all but killed the show. Worst idea ever.

R320 made me sob

It wasn't just the 90-minute format. NBC as whole totally collapsed in 1979/1980. Before Cosby and Golden Girls, Facts of Life and Diff'rent Strokes were practically their only prime time shows in the top 30. That trickled down to the daytime lineup. Couple that with all the buzz surrounding the ABC shows, and you have a recipe for disaster. And of course, as mentioned above, the show did itself no favors with the 90-minute format, introducing lackluster characters, the loss of Bev McKinsely, and, something many people don't remember, spending months introducing some of the Texas characters with so many exposition-oriented scenes, it became so boring and unwatchable.

Goodness. That sexual tension between Jake and Donna.....

Donna’s pussy stunk.

R325, good point about introducing the Texas characters. I remember several years ago, AW episodes from 1979 and later became available online (I think it was an AOL service?). I was very excited to rewatch those, but when I did, there would be "Houston" at the bottom of the screen and scene after scene of a bunch of Texas characters laying the groundwork for their spinoff. It was such a letdown.

Another World is the most "spun off" show

It was developed as a spin off

Somerset was its first spin off

Texas was its second spin off

Some call LAF/FRFP an unofficial spin off because Rachel and Mac appeared on episodes

When I was a gayling, I used to JO to the fantasy of David Oliver fucking my hole.

The scenes introducing the Texas characters only aired for one month -- July 1980, before Texas debuted on Aug 4, 1980. They did, however, take up 45 minutes of the 90 minute episodes during that month.

Additionally, the characters of Reena Bellman and Kevin Cook arrived in Bay City from Houston in fall 1979. Reena and Kevin would return to Houston when Texas debuted, but they were integrated fairly well onto the AW canvas during the 9 months they were in town-- Kevin fell in love with Pat Randolph despite being married to Reena and Reena befriended Iris while also waging war against Pat.

Geez, poor Bevelee Penberthy. Did she EVER have a straight leading man?

Wow, R329, I didn't know that about Mac and Rachel on FRFP. Has anyone ever seen any episodes of that show up on youtube or anything?

I watched one of the episodes at The Paley Center R333.

Was it any good R334? Was it one with Mac and Rachel?

Damn it, it's always RACHEL RACHEL RACHEL!

Why doesn't Daddy look at me with the same fiery, lusty intensity that he looks at Rachel?

That Iris had such a fucking annoying voice! Ugh.

Iris, stop tugging at Mac's zipper!

The other Bev -- Bev Penberthy -- was the far superior actress. There, I said it.

Is Bev Penberthy's Gay Nephew still here?

if so: hey gurl!

Me, too, r330

R319, that's easy.

Douglas Marland happened. He went to GH, wrote Laura/Scotty/Bobbie and also Alan/Monica/Rick/Lesley.

Ratings soared.

I was a high school kid, probably bored with AW and turned the knob and saw shirtless Kin Shriner with Genie Francis and said, 'Hmmm...what's this?"

It wasn't just Doug Marland at GH, the entire ABC daytime lineup started surging in 1978-79. As I've said before on AW threads, ABC soaps captured the zeitgeist of the late 70s -- was young, hip and exciting with colorful characters and antiheroes. It was COOL to watch ABC and people weren't afraid to say that watched ABC shows.

In 1978, ABC Daytime got a new chief. I forget who it was (anybody remember?, but she (he?) just knew what to do to get the demos up, make the storylines exciting and get people talking about the shows.

Meanwhile, the entire NBC lineup -- daytime and primetime was sagging. Harding Lemay was suffering from burnout severely, while Days and the Doctors was floundering too.

It was really just the perfect storm of NBC floundering just as ABC was surging. So people started dropping NBC and switching to ABC.

Jackie Smith took over as head of ABC Daytime in 1977 according to this Wikipedia entry. Scroll down to the executives section.

They should have offered big bucks to Nancy Frangione (and her hubby Chris Rich) to keep her on the show. In the 80s the show was always a little more lively when Cecile showed up.

Days was able to rebrand itself in the 80s with the super couple formula, allowing it to flourish and appeal to young viewers, just as the ABC shows were beginning to see some viewer defection (circa 1984-1985). It was a perfect storm that allowed Days to recover. Despite some fits and spurts, AW just never regained its footing after the late 70s. With its revolving door of HWs, there was no sustained vision for the show. Perhaps if it had gone the super-couple route, it would've lasted longer. Another thing was that Days kept its core and remained recognizable to lapsed viewers who sampled the show again in the 80s. AW dessimated its core by the mid-80s by writing out most of the Matthews family and keeping Mac and Rachel stagnant. The show was pretty much on life support for the last 10-15 years of its life.

If someone watched AW in 1980, but didn't tune in again until 1987, the only characters they would have recognized were Mac, Rachel, Ada and Aunt Liz. They would also know the characters of Jamie and Amanda, but they were played by different actors in 1987.

That's a pretty significant cast purge in just seven years.

AW had a super couple in Sally and Catlin but didn't know what to do with them. Didn't help that Mary Page Keller refused to renew her contract when it expired in 1985.

R348 I think Aunt Liz was gone by 1987 as well (though she did come back).

Liz and Ada shared a very "special" friendship.

[quote]AW dessimated its core

Oh, DEAR.

The only time AW felt like itself again was when Harding Lemay returned and wrote a nice long term story. He got booted after the writers strike, but his long term story served as the backbone of the show for a few years. Donna Swajeski got a lot of undeserved praise for a tenure that was based on someone else's work.

That's when I started watching, R353, during the writers' strike of 1988. I didn't know who Harding Lemay was, or anything about him or his tenure on AW. I just turned the tv on one summer day, and I found the Matthew-Josie story so compelling, I HAD to tune in the next day. I wouldn't learn about the Cory v. Frame backstory until after they did their version of De Maupassant's The Necklace, sometime later that year, or maybe early the next. I couldn't conceive of why people didn't like soap opera.

Mitch Blake was also on the show in 1980 and was back on by 1987.

It was so, so, so, so obvious that Lemay wrote the 1987-88 bible and that the show stole it from him. They fucked him over one last time.

(Sadly, I think he went back to soaps a few times after that as a consultant, but GL and ATWT used him and don't seem to have gotten any help from him - probably because they took few of his suggestions.)

LeMay was and still is a crotchety old fuck. He never was all that. Very overrated. The old bastard would never have allowed AW to use his ‘bible’ for 2 years. He’d have them in court pronto. You fraus exaggerate.

That is not the way it works r357. They hired him and his work becomes property of P&G. Once they've purchased the long term story, they can do whatever they want with it.

[quote]The only time AW felt like itself again was when Harding Lemay returned and wrote a nice long term story. He got booted after the writers strike, but his long term story served as the backbone of the show for a few years.

We also got a few weeks of Lemay scripts out of his return. His writing for Rachel and Sharlene, in particular, was great, really playing up the class conflict -- a concept that was essential to Lemay's 70s-era AW but had long since disappeared.

I'm so glad I have the giant pile of feces that is R357 blocked.

If AW had been on CBS, do you think it would've experienced a sustained period of critical and commercial recovery like GL and ATWT did?

CBS, like ABC, had a long-term vision for their soaps, something NBC seemed to lack.

But if CBS was overseeing AW in the early 1980s, they would have pushed for a younger, hipper vibe. Consequently, they would have would have pushed out the Matthews family, just like they tried to do with the Hughes and Bauer families.

So, even though we now lament the loss of the Matthews family in the early 80s, I imagine CBS would have done the same thing.

I don't agree about the long term vision thing. The only benefit that CBS and ABC had over NBC was being able to lock their affiliates down. NBC had trouble building and branding a consistent, cohesive daytime soap lineup because the affiliates could move the shows around, as long as they carried a certain percentage the network's programming. It also didn't help when NBC started returning daytime hours back to the affiliates and thus lost control of key programming blocks.

The Doctors, Search For Tomorrow, Texas, Santa Barbara, and Sunset Beach all suffered because NBC affiliates kept moving their timeslots. In my market, towards the end, Santa Barbara was being shown at 2 in the morning. My affiliate stop carrying The Doctors all together. Texas started at 3 then moved to 10 am and was a day behind the national show.

It wasn't until Passions that NBC made deals with affiliates to show Passions after Days, but the only way they could that was to cancel either Sunset Beach or Another World. AW was the logical choice.

If AW were on CBS, the only thing in it's favor would have been a more favorable audience. Both ABC and NBC put uber focus on 18-49, 18-34. CBS knew that it skewed older and just ran with it.

[quote]The Doctors, Search For Tomorrow, Texas, Santa Barbara, and Sunset Beach all suffered because NBC affiliates kept moving their timeslots.

ABC did the same with Edge of Night, Ryan's Hope, and Loving. I grew up in a location where we got reception of two different ABC affiliates, and you could watch these shows at various times depending on which channel we tuned into.

ABC sacrified Ryan's Hope, throwing it to the slaughter in the hope that they could salvage Loving. It was Agnes who demanded her new show Loving be moved from its original11:30 am timeslot, where it was failing, to the cushier 12:30 spot before AMC. Consequently RH was moved to noon in many areas, where most stations aired the news. It lost a ton of affiliates and its audience dropped by almost half with the timeslot switch.

I remember that R365. Where I lived they moved Ryan's hope to 9:30 am and it was a day behind.

That Agnes was a real cunt-hole.

She demeaned me on a daily basis. But I got a whole lotta lot when she finally croaked so I’m good.

Darlings, have I missed anything?

R348, the cast purge in the 80s ultimately led to an early cancellation (well that and it being on NBC).

I always wish Doug had gone to AW; he would have found a man for Rachel; he would have rejuvenated the Matthews clan, I suspect. (Alice, Pat).

Susan and Kim fought over Dan Stewart in the mid 70s; he did Susan/Bob/Kim circa 1990! That's a long time.

I do agree with earlier poster about Doug redeeming Rod Josh Landry Snyder; sadly, we lost Meg in the process as she fell in love with her sister's rapist.

Great scene in late Nov. early Dec 87 after Rod Josh is recovering at Memorial after being shot while rescuing Lily.

Lucinda brings him a check to thank him; and she skewers him when he rejects the help.

Hi, ORD. It's been quiet, probably as the dreadful Cecile has been away.

Aunt Liz and FFB, are you out there?

Ah, that's why it's been so calm.

I don't even want to say her name, lest she appear. I'll just call her....the C word.

Liz ate out Ada’s snatch.

^I used to eat out Ada too!

Why did you have to drag poor Maisie into this. You wasn't hurting anyone.

Maisie ate out Lily’s snatch. Jackee! There’s no place like home. Down there.

If you think the AW cast purge was between 1980 and 1987 was bad, the GL cast purge was just as bad.

If you watched GL in 1980 and didn't tune in again until 1987, the only characters you would have recognized would have been Alan Spaulding, Ross Marler, Henry Chamberlain and Vanessa Chamberlain. You would also have known the characters of Ed Bauer, Rick Bauer (previously called Freddie) and Phillip Spaulding, but they were all played by different actors in 1987.

Things got a little better by 1989 when Roger Thorpe and Holly Norris Lindsey returned to the show, along with their daughter Blake Lindsey (previously called Christina or Chrissy).

Did any show stay essentially the same between 1980 and 1987?

r378 The casts of the ABC soaps remained largely intact between 1980 and 1987. Yes, there was some turnover on them, but nothing that could be considered a cast purge like what happened with AW and GL.

ATWT cast from 1980 still on in 1987: Kim, Bob, Lisa, John, Ellen, Barbara; recast characters: Tom, Betsy; aged characters: Andy, Paul, Frannie. And almost every new character added since 1980 involved or connected to one of these established characters.

Veteran soap star Jensen Buchanan ( Vicky, AW ), who was sentenced to probation in October after pleading guilty to a DUI crash, was sent back in jail with no bail set after allegedly violating terms of her probation, a judge ruled Thursday.

According to Buchanan's probation report, the actress' ankle monitor detected a blood alcohol level of 0.18 between the weeks of Dec. 29 and Jan. 11.

More than 4 times over the limit and nearly killing someone? It says she did one month and a half from the original 5 year sentence. Seriously, not enough time to learn a lesson.

Didn't all the actresses who played Vicky go crazy at some point? You never know where the cursed penny is going to drop.

If Zimmer hadn't hit so big on GL, the Lewises would've probably been just a footnote in GL's history, and we never would've gotten those god-awful Shaynes.

Why did P&G have such a problem with Pam Long trying to develop a Jewish core family (the Weisses) in 1990?

R385, see "Bert Bauer's Good Leg," post 470.

I can't believe the news about Jensen. Guess her next role will be in Orange Is The New Black.

Hope she likes pussy!

Jensen would have had to sell her chopper to make bail, wouldn’t she?

Maybe if she hadn't flopped as Dr. Melissa Bedford on GH, none of this would be happening to her.

God damn stupid bitch cunt Jensen. What an asshole. Don’t give me that addiction shit. What a stupid stupid bitch.

Didn't something go down behind the scenes at AW between Jensen Buchanan/Tom Eplin and Charles Keating that resulted in Charles' abrupt firing in 1998? Supposedly Charles struck someone or pulled their hair. Remember on the show how Vicky's storyline only involved a core set of characters, and the character of Vicky rarely interacted with the rest of the characters in Bay City.

never heard that, R391; I think they were just gutting the cast b/c they knew the show was going off the air.

Who wouldn't want to slap Jensen Buchanan?

While they taker her to court for drunkenness she should also be tried for destroying the role of Vicky Hudson.

Worst Recast Ever!!!!!!

She’ll be dead before long.

^Agreed!

Robin Christopher begs to differ, R394.

Robin was hardly a bad recast, darling. That's just your taste....or lack thereof.

Go get your cataracts removed, hun.

Robin wasn't as great as Alicia in the role of Lorna, but there is a long, long, LONG list of truly terrible recasts to consider and ponder before we would ever, ever get to her portrayal of Lorna.

On AW alone, we have the queen of bad requests with Philece Sampler as Donna. (Sorry, BNSD. No offense to you, sweetie.) And Rhonda Lewin as Vicky would come well before that.

I was so sure Matt Crane was gay. Then, didn't he up and marry Robin Christopher?

I thought Robin Christopher was a closet dyke and fooled around with Jill Farren Phelps.

OMG, I'd forgotten about Philece Sampler! (Or blocked it from my memory.)

What was ridiculous about Robin was that, after the show devoted so much time drilling it into our heads how much Alicia-Lorna resembled Felicia and Lucas (and she really did convincingly look like their daughter), to recast with a complete physical opposite was inane. It didn't help that Robin spent her first few years on the show doing a very awkward and bad Alicia imitation. She didn't come into her own until the Gabe storyline, IMO.

I understand it was stunt casting, but they should have invented a new character for Robin if they wanted her that badly.

I hated the way Jensen Buchanan pronounced “Carl” like “Carol.” Must have been some regional thing.

If you want to talk about bad recasts, don't forget about Wesley Pfenning and Vana Tribbey.

Fortunately, both of them only lasted 6-8 months on the show.

From the AW website page at R405

[quote] Medical History: Miscarried on March 10, 1972 and left unable to have children. Nervous breakdown (1974).

Was the nervous breakdown when Rachel tormented her?

Pfenning was awful, but I kind of liked Tribbey. Harney was ok, but it was obvious that, with Jackie's firing, they wanted an actress in the role who was not very charismatic and who wouldn't eclipse Wyndham, who was being positioned as lead heroine.

Of the Alice recasts, my favorite was Linda Borgeson. She had Alice's vulnerability and warmth, but also that fragility that made you want to protect her (which is what Steve always responded to). What she lacked was charisma.

My second favorite Alice recast was Susan Harney. She wasn't especially vulnerably or fragile, but she did have the warmth down. And she could act! She was perfectly adequate in the role (she just wasn't Jacquie Courtney).

Wesley Pfenning's casting was a head scratcher. She wasn't even blonde!

Vana Tribbey came off as too old to play Alice. She was a decent actress, but also lacked the vulnerability and fragility necessary to play Alice.

I never liked Alice. No matter who played her, I wanted to slap her.

They totally wasted Jackie when she was brought back in 1983/1984. I remember her pretty much just functioning as a sounding board for Sally, and I think they romantically paired her with the boring Mark Singleton.

Alice was the classic soap heroine. Vulnerability and fragility were a requirement for the character; men should naturally want to protect them, take care of them. The actors playing classic soap heroines had to be able to emote on cue, so the audience could feel their pain. The more the suffered, the more the audience tended to love them.

When I was a kid, both Susan Seaforth Hayes and Jacqueline Courtney could emote like no one else. I felt their suffering on a daily basis. I wanted them to be happy. I wanted them to find love and live happily ever after.

I think the main reason Jacqueline Courtney's return in 1984 didn't work was because the character was no longer written as vulnerable and fragile. They made Alice a doctor. She was self-sufficient. She could take care of herself without a man. They stripped the essence of the Alice character away.

I agree about Borgeson. She had a lovely quality as Alice and totally had that Linda Evans thing going on. But I also agree she didn’t have the necessary chemistry to sustain the role.

David Canary was a good actor. We saw that many times on AMC. And his many Emmy wins attest to that.

But David Canary was miscast as Steve Frame. He lacked the gentleness combined with macho bravada that made Steve so popular.

Also didn't help that AW brought in Corine Jacker as HW just a few months after they cast Canary as Steve and Borgeson as Alice. Jacker didn't seem to know what to do with Steve and Alice, so she put Steve and Rachel together instead.

Canary and Borgeson didn't have much chemistry, but Canary and Wyndham had great chemistry together. Meanwhile, Borgeson and Douglass Watson had nice chemistry too. I was always disappointed the show didn't do more with their Mac and Alice pairing.

They thought Jacker would be another Lemay, but she was a garbage fire.

Lemay is a miserable old fuck.

George Reinholt was a tough act to follow, but I thought David Canary was just fine. And of all the Alices who weren't Jackie, I suppose Borgenson (sp?) was the 'best.'

I think they had more with them then they thought.

Killing Steve a second time was a dumb decision. Better to have sent him away so that George could have come back alive for anniversaries etc.

Steve as a ghost for the 25th and no Mac (Douglass had died) dampened the celebration.

Ultimately, Charles Keatings' Carl was not the man for Rachel; he'd kidnapped her in '85; who did AW think they were? ABC?

Corine Jacker introduced some interesting new characters. Cass Winthrop was her creation. She also gave us Julia Shearer (Kyra Sedwigck), Louis St. George, and the black Morgan family, among others. And she also gave us one of AW's greatest villains -- Alma Rudder.

But she didn't know what to do with the existing characters. She wrote off Pat. She ignored Alice, preferring to pair Steve with Rachel (in fairness, Wyndham and Canary had great chemistry). She didn't give Mac much to do either.

Yes, Corine Jacker was brought in to offer a fresh perspective, much like Harding Lemay had done a decade earlier. I don't think that Jacker had any real idea about the daily ins and outs of writing a 60 minute show, five days a week (at least when Lemay started, he only had to do a 30 minute show, five days a week).

[quote]Remember on the show how Vicky's storyline only involved a core set of characters, and the character of Vicky rarely interacted with the rest of the characters in Bay City.

That's because the show gave her an abbreviated shooting schedule (in addition to a helicopter).

Was Connie Ford a lez? What about Irene Daily? Neither ever married.

If only they'd recast Heche with Wheeler; we might never have had her influence on GL.

AW writing out Pat Randolph was moronic.

Ellen and Kreizman killing off Phillip helped kill the show.

Wyndham said on Entertainment Tonight that the hiring of Jacker marked a real renaissance for the show. Oh how very wrong she was.

Michelle Shay as Thomasina Morgan (a Jacker creation) gave the most bizarre line readings I’d ever heard on a show and she was apparently a much admired member if the Negro Ensemble Company (a theater company).

R421, sometimes actors will RAVE about a new writer coming on or old writer coming back. Y&R actors were doing that with Sally and Kay the last go-around.

Then it stops....then there's a change.

[quote] Ellen and Kreizman killing off Phillip helped kill the show.

P&G dictated that, not Wheeler or Kreizman. It was one of the last things MADD signed off on before she left. P&G didn't like actors being protective of their characters, as Grant was. He crossed a line they apparently didn't appreciate. They repeated the same a few years later with Martha Byrne.

The assumption was that once he was properly admonished he'd come back, and at 15 percent less than before. They seriously thought that, and were stunned when he didn't come back. That's why there was a weird story where it looked like he was coming back and then Alan had to say he was alive but not where he was, and that was all the more that was said about it (most of the town assumed he was still dead).

A weird enough story considering Alan, who always loved Philip no matter what, shot him. By then they'd all but forgotten anything about the character(s).

Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a GL tangent here but wanted to respond.

P&G routinely trotted out Victoria Wyndham to tout how good the new writers were. If they held a news conference related to the new writers, Wyndham was part of it. I think she hailed virtually every set of writers that came after Harding Lemay.

Similarly actors routinely praise each other, especially on set. That's just part of the set camaraderie.

No, Connie Ford was straight, she had a voracious appetite for cock, and slept with all of her leading men... as well as some of the extras.

R425 Honey....no.

I snacked on Connie’s snatch. It was tasty.

Is R425 the same poster who claimed on the AMC thread that Dack Rambo was bisexual?

Serial Psychotic got his ass handed to him on twitter, again. What a moron.

I blew Richard Speck!

They should have had Alma Rudder return from the dead annually, like James Stenbeck on ATWT, to terrorize Cass and the Corys.

Was Alma Rudder a lesbian?

Welcome, visitors from the ATWT thread!

Have a seat. But get your own fuckin' tea.

From the ATWT thread:

[quote]Susan Harney brought warmth and NO melodrama to Alice. The previous portray-er was notorious for her weepiness.

Harney was a better actress but she didn't have one-tenth the charisma that Courtney had. I understand why Courtney didn't fit Lemay's vision for the show, but they should have just retired the character -- the show never gave Harney anything interesting or consequential, anyway.

Courtney looked so old fashioned. There was something contemporary about Harney which fitted Lemay’s vision.

Robin Christopher? Was her best childhood friend a bear of Very Little Brain?

[quote]the show never gave Harney anything interesting or consequential, anyway.

At first, Lemay gave Susan Harney a lot of good story -- adopting Sally, realizing Sally was Beatrice's granddaughter, romance with Willis, feelign betrayed by Willis, romance with Ray Gordon, divorce from Ray Gordon.

But after about 2 years, Lemay ran out of story for Alice. He essentially quit writing for Alice. Oh, he put her in some romance with Dan Shearer, but it was obvious that it was the C-story and never going to be front burner.

Frankly, I believe he brought in Olive Gordon to be the new nemesis for Alice (since Rachel was now a heroine). But Jennifer Leak was a much stronger actress than Susan Harney and played that" just-a-little-bit-crazy" so well. Meanwhile, Harney couldn't emote and suffer the way Jacqueline Courtney did. Thus, an Alice-Olive rivalry never really worked. So, Lemay moved Olive into John Randolph's orbit and ran out of ideas for things to do with Alice.

R423, thanks for sharing, but honestly CBS should have intervened and either put Grant on a Bell soap or kept him around GL.

They were fools to think someone as smart and sought after as Grant would take their shit.

I'm glad he came back for the fans at the end.

Grant came back at the end partly because of the fans, partly because I think he knew the show could be ending, and as I understand it, largely because of Jill Lorie Hurst, the final head writer.

I agree that she was great, the kind of fresh blood needed at the HW spot. Sadly, by the time she was HW the show was already toast. But the recognizable, warm flourishes at the end were her, as well as the (mostly) wonderful Otalia story.

Serial nutjob and that alcoholic Dizzel with the dumbo ears are both assholes.

Who the fuck thought a GORILLA needed to be on the last day of AW?

Due to popular demand, the P&G soaps have been combined into one thread. Here it is

Good God, Kale Browne looks OLD in this Seth Meyers spoof of The Post. But he’s funny.

R423, if that's true -- and I'm not saying it isn't -- then the second MADD was out the door I would have gone to Grant and said 'look, that was all MADD. she's gone. we NEED you back. Come home.' and maybe he would have?

I've never understood that punishing actor shit when you're on the verge of cancellation, which GL was for years.

Grant should have stuck his magic wand up MADD’s twat!

Go away Serial nutcase.