Andy Dixon's Tousled Hair

Poor Andy was sooooo homely! Poor thing.

Go back to ABC, R1, where the hunks and the hair models roamed free. This is a thread about a show that hired real actors.

Where’s DeFreitas’ emmy? Oops. He doesn’t have any. His wife is the bread winner in that family.

Ha! And I was called the Scott DeFrietas Troll on the last thread.

--not OP

I did call you the DeFreitas Troll. Mostly in a loving way.

smooches

So how often did Fulton plug up the shitter? That’s why they never used her at the end.

Back to Andy and cunty old Helen Wagner please!

What was Kathy Hays like behind the scenes?

Scott DeFrietas

Did cunty old Wagner like anyone? She seems like a miserable old frau.

I bet Scott has really hairy, huge balls. Like could-cover-your-face nutsack.

Liquored up most of the time, exactly how Dataloungers prefers their straight men to be.

OP, is the DeFreitas troll the poster who loves him or the one who hates him?

I started watching ATWT in 1985 and I believe Nancy was a regular at the time. Was she off the show for a period before that? I thought she was the matriarch.

Nancy and Chris were off the show from 1981-85 except for Tom and Margo’s wedding (the come as you are wedding, ugh).

Why did they let that old bat Nancy sing on the show-she did it at least twice (the 30th anniversary show and in Christmas 1987), and both times she sounded awful.

R12 The one who loves him.

I'm gently poking fun. I liked him just fine but the D Troll truly loves him in a special way!

I don't really love Scotty D. If I am troll for anyone, it would be Christopher Fuller (Jef Hamlin). I completely swooned for him and made his name my AOL handle. I'd even used Jef as my fake name at the bar.

But I did think Scott was great and Andy should always have been a core character with him in the role.

But, drooooool....Chris Fuller!

On a side note, Jef is a pretentious way to spell Jeff, much like Thom is a douchey way to spell Tom.

Jef Spencer Hira was an ATWT crew member and they named Jef after him.

Ugh, I didn't watch much during her stint, but I never liked that Molly person.

This is one soap (perhaps the only long-running one) that I never watched. What made it unique?

Is there any other soap that was a traditional middle-class family soap and focused on the same family the entire run?

R21,

The Secret Storm

Days of our Lives

[quote] This is one soap (perhaps the only long-running one) that I never watched. What made it unique?

It was pretty MOR for most of its run but like its sister show Guiding Light, two sets of head writers - the Dobsons and then Douglas Marland - made them complex and grown up. On ATWT it lasted for about a decade of its best era, but then started to fall apart, as many of the old shows did, in the mid 2000s.

Douggie Marland liked his toes sucked.

R20, my favorite thing that made it different was the way the people congregated here and there in Oakdale to gossip by way of providing the recap. It was usually very well done, with hardly anyone ever tellling someone something he should already logically have known.

And then there was Andy Dixon, who would likely have been the tentpole character he was always supposed to be, and undoubtedly have been had P&G not sent in the ABC Destructocunts.

No show I watched was ever so thoroughly destroyed.

[quote] ABC Destructocunts.

Fabulous term!

[quote] No show I watched was ever so thoroughly destroyed.

ATWT and GL actually had some meat on their bones when they died. Hard to believe, and it ain't exactly a compliment, but true. Another World was beyond unrecognizable when it limped to its death.

A critic once called ATWT "the thinking person's soap." It was character-based (as opposed to plot-based) and more psychological than any other soap.

I don't know that being a fan of ATWT prohibits being an ABC fan. I didn't watch any other ABC soaps, but AMC was really great for a long time, and for me, it was the only soap that was as good as ATWT was during Marland's first few years--and sometimes even better.

Santa Barbara was winning a lot of Emmys around then, but I never thought it was all that great, despite some good actors.

Did Helen Wagner ever receive an honorary Emmy?

[quote]A critic once called ATWT "the thinking person's soap."

That critic was clearly drunk. A thinking person's soap would be Rita Lakin's The Doctors, Another World in the 70s or Santa Barbara in the 80s or Arguably, Claire Labine's General Hospital. ATWT was just soap opera, there was never any point that it wasn't soap opera. They never did anything to elevate the form. It had good moments, great moments, and SMDH moments, but it always was just a soap opera.

R30, it was written during the Marland years, when several characters were undergoing psychotherapy (for REAL problems like being the victim of a crime or trying to keep a marriage together, not for multiple personalities or some other bullshit), sophisticated couples like John and Lucinda were engaging in witty banter, female characters were struggling to become doctors and police officers in often hostile environments, Central American characters were discussing things like class and revolution (Lucinda actually once replied, "I'm a capitalist pig"), teens were having long, thoughtful conversations about drug/alcohol addiction and AIDS, and Hank Elliott was coming out of the closet as soaps' first gay male character. I would argue that, yes, AT THAT TIME, it was "the thinking person's soap."

Agreed, Marland created a beautiful mosaic of characters, situations, and interactions. Very much a thinking person's soap during those years.

The ONLY “thinking person’s soap” EVER was AW during the Harding Lemay heyday.

I think Marland's ATWT may have been the purest expression of the traditional soap format we've ever seen -- but yes, Lemay's AW was far more literate and complex.

I loved the complex storytelling structure. Every little piece of story just fit perfectly in the Marland era. And I've never heard gossip-as-recap done as well as on this show.

Thanks for the Andy Dixon thread, OP. He was my favorite character.

I know you guys love Marland, but Marland wrote soap opera. There was nothing complex about the Snyder listening porch. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it, but you could never compare it to something like Lemay in the 70s. It was unapologetic soap opera. Lemay's AW was just on a whole other universe.

as the w turns was my fave

loved holdens asshole so much,,,,,and andy gave me my first jak off orgasm.

luvd the mean matriarch, whts her name? she alwys flubbed her lines.

DA GOOD OLD DAYS......

I was 12-16 years old during those AW years and even a suburban kid growing up on Long Island like me knew I was watching something special. Everything else was fun to watch but lazy writing.

Oh, R37, if ONLY I had known how good a soap opera could be in the 1970s. But I didn't. So I missed all of Lemay's Bay City until the summer of 1988, when he ghostwrote during the writers strike. But I sure loved what I did get to see. I had no idea Matthew and Josie were the latest iteration of a story that had been going for decades. I just liked their singular little have v. have-not story that starred just the two of them. Of course, when I discovered the history, I just about drowned in the subtext in some scenes.

Sometime in 1989, I stayed home one week and watched ATWT while AW taped. I liked it even more because of the tight, mechanical structure, and I bought a second VCR so I could tape them both the following week.

[quote]There was nothing complex about the Snyder listening porch.

Undoubtedly you are referring to the Snyder Farm Kitchen Eavesdropping Porch®.

And GL with “Last summer at Laurel Falls...” Marland was really something.

He would have written fun stuff for Damien’s mother Orlena (Claire Bloom). Damien was the last character he created, wasn’t it?

I get the appeal of Lemay's AW. But it was hardly the sort of intricate, many-moving-parts, mulit-generational family drama that Marland wrote. And I dont think there is point in arguing which was better.

Yes, there is. Lemay’s was far, far better. It was a time when a daytime soap reached for something different and richly succeeded. The medium is for all intents and purposes dead now and that’s because network assholes had a basic contempt for the “art” of daytime drama.

[quote]Is there any other soap that was a traditional middle-class family soap and focused on the same family the entire run?

Ryan's Hope.

More new to youtube Hughes goodness. Obviously, they gave Helen Wagner some lines originally intended for Don McLaughlin. This show was hitting on all cylinders even before Marland (officially) arrived.

Having never seen a moment, let alone an episode of Ryan's Hope or Another World, I can only hope that they performed as well as their fans remember it. I know that seeing the above episode of ATWT gave me chills and happy memories of ATWT. I would not be so bold to argue against anyone and their perceptions of excellence in soaps. I do fully believe that ATWT had some extremely fine years in the 80's and into the early 90's. And for that I am very appreciative. I have not watched a soap since 2010, when ATWT retired and was a slim shadow of its finest years. But the recollections of so enjoying its best years and the need to see it on a daily basis is a lovely memory.

Someone above asked what made ATWT special. To me it was the acting. While the ABC and NBC soaps hired people for looks first, talent as an afterthought, ATWT had some great actors.

Yup, the above has a ring of truth to my ears.

The acting and the writing were great during the Marland years. After he died, "Lisa Sues Johnny Boy" was the only story of any value. Everything else reached new height in shittasticness, especially the messes that were "As the World Turns around Carly Tenney" and "Let's See If We Can Make Low-quality Lightning Strike Twice in the Person of Katie Perretti." Don't even get me started on the mess they made of Nuke.

Lemay removed the stodgy old conventions of Irna Phillips from the genre of what was called soap opera. He elevated dialogue to what one might hear at at an elegant dinner party. There was no need for white bread matriarchal women like the pointless Mary Matthews. Another World at its zenith showcased beautiful Rachel and her past merging with her future with Mac. People much preferred witty repartee opposed to coffee klatch scenes between house fraus gossiping over the latest affair or illegitimate birth. Lemay created sophisticated characters who could have stepped off the social register and showed the rich to be as human as the rest of us.

I know I could relate, as a 13 year old gay boy, to socialite Theresa Lamont far more than I could by male contemporaries. I felt Lemay was speaking to me when he talked about one's 'social position' and 'marrying above one's station' - timeless themes.

Oh, r52. I so wish I had been watching then.

Yeah, we got what Lemay was doing and we can appreciate his skill. And yet at the same time we can prefer the homey-ness of Marland's As the World Turns.

There is another thread to talk all about Another World.

[quote]While the ABC and NBC soaps hired people for looks first, talent as an afterthought, ATWT had some great actors.

Every soap had some great actors. Well, maybe not Passions.

ATWT was the old ladys soap. You had to be over 80 to watch it. Kinda like Y&R now.

Good point, R54. I consider myself fortunate to have been able to enjoy the sophistication of Lemay’s AW, the hominess of Marland’s GL and ATWT and Nixon’s Dickensian camp on AMC.

The material point is that Lemay was superior and Marland inferior. Nixon was a protege of Agnes and it must have been interesting how Irna saw Agnes's progressive social storylines. I can't recall if Irna ever wrote for a black actor on her shows? Let alone Jews.

[quote]The material point is that Lemay was superior and Marland inferior.

While I can absolutely imagine you are correct, my material point is that I was not watching television between 1970 and 1988. So I did not see anything of Lemay's until that first summer I had a TV. I saw the Matthew & Josie story and was hooked. Had to watch the next episode, and the one after that, and the one after that, and so on. But I also discovered the joys of Marland, and it was better, longer. Another World had declined in quality by the time Saint Doug died, at which time ATWT was still quite enjoyable. "Who killed Carolyn Crawford?" was not the show's high point, certainly, but it was otherwise the preferred daytime storytelling option for someone whose only experience was with those two shows (with a little Billy Douglas thrown in).

Why are all these ATWT haters even in this thread? Go away and let us love our favorite soap.

"ATWT was the old ladys soap. You had to be over 80 to watch it."

Well, that's news to my teenage self, who was obsessed with it in the late Eighties. And whose favorite couple was John and Lucinda.

Yeah and where is ATWT now? Yup - cancelled. Their over 80 year old audience all croaked off. It was the old lady soap.

My favorite couple was John and Andy whenever they would eat real food on camera.

I am used to blocking Trotsky trolls in threads about trump, but it also comes in handy with the rabid and over reaching haters of ATWT on this thread. Maybe they are the same "people"

Speaking of ratings, and ignoring the troll, atwt under Marland always had a high rating among men. Not the audience the advertisers liked, but indicative of the type of stories he told.

There are two haters, R63, who, if you delete them, all the nastiness goes away. Unfortunately, I was forced to reboot my DL account a week ago, and I have yet to recreate my Ignored Posters list (12 "bro" posters, two soap psychos).

"Speaking of ratings, and ignoring the troll, atwt under Marland always had a high rating among men."

Because the men on ATWT were more than mindless hunks and pathetic purse holders. They were three-dimensional characters. Likewise, the female characters had their own dreams and careers and didn't just live to fall in love with men. Heck, even NuLily had a real job during the Marland years.

I am not a Marland fan, but I respect that he was a good writer and he loved the genre. And I respect the number of fans who think he walked on water. My only issue with Marland was that he never seemed grateful to Lemay for bringing him into soaps and teaching him how to structure a show. Marland took everything that was great about Lemay and added traditional soap elements to hook viewers.

One of the things that I have always found fascinating about soap opera is that the best writers and/or the ones who made the biggest impact on the genre, were usually men. Winsor, Slesar, Lemay, Marland, Bell, Sr., Reilly, Sheffer, Cenedella, Edelstein, Guza, Jerry Dobson, Washam, Malone, Sam Hall, Gordon Russell, etc. All men and whether you liked their stuff or not, they made a major impact on what is soap opera.

Good point R66--one of the things I remember liking about ATWT during the Marland years was that the women all had jobs, and varied ones. AMC was good at that too, but a lot of other soaps during that time just had a bunch of dilettantes.

Later, it seemed most female characters on soaps--if they had jobs--were either cops, lawyers, or nurses/doctors.

"...but a lot of other soaps during that time just had a bunch of dilettantes."

Don't even get me started on the female characters on Y&R in the Eighties, R68! Nikki, staring out of a window while she dreams of marrying Victor. Ashley, staring out of a window while she thinks about aborting Victor's fetus. Kay, staring out of a window while she obsesses about how much she hates Jill. Voice-overs... Flashbacks... Flower arrangements...

It was like professional golf: I always had it on, and I was glad it was there, but I never really *watched* it. It was a calming, soothing background thing.

I wouldn’t include Jerry Dobson in that group. The Dobsons were a package deal and the complex relationships like Mason/CC on Santa Barbara are more a reflection of her own complicated relationship with her parents

[quote]One of the things that I have always found fascinating about soap opera is that the best writers and/or the ones who made the biggest impact on the genre, were usually men.

Ahem.

The "ahem" queen has landed.

Y&R was always relentlessly inferior to the liked of AMC, OLTL, ATWT and even AW. Their attempts at humor were particularly awful. Santa Barbara has been the only LA soap which had any humor in it which wasn’t embarrassingly lame.

In the history of soaps, there may have been a lot more men involved in its development and evolution, simply because few women were involved in upper levels of any business until the past 30-40 years or so.

However, the woman who were involved made a GIGANTIC impact. The woman I would list as having the greatest impact would be

Irna Phillips

Agnes Nixon

Gloria Monty

Claire Labine

Of Marland;s later ATWT stories (anything after the Bob/Susan affair): which was your favorite:

1.) Scott Eldridge/Lisa's Second Son 2.) Margo's Rape 3.) Lucinda loses Walsh Enterprises 4.) Iva adopts Aaron/Holden loses his memory/Lily disowns Lucinda and Iva 5.) Angel's incest 6.) Carolyn Crawford murder 7.) Royce and Neal arrive/Neal is murdered 8.) Ellie aborts her baby 9.)Tonio dies 10.) Susan and Larry hook up

The Iva-Julie-Andy-Aaron story is one of my favorites of all time. It became less interesting when Little Miss Seattle returned to Seattle. I did love Lucinda lying about knowing Holden was alive, though, too.

They should have never killed off Tonio. ATWT needed a realistic villain to counteract the campiness of James, and Peter Boynton was excellent in the role.

The Carolyn Crawford Murder storyline was absolutely endless.

I miss Doug Marland’s toes.

I loved Scott and Neal. I was so heart-broken when that ended.

Did Shannon really shove Barbara's head in a toilet?

Yes, R81, but they only showed the "powder room" area of the ladies' bathroom. You heard the catfighting and the flush, then Babs emerged with a wet head, after the laughing Shannon.

Did Fulton keep plugging up the shitter?

Lemay knew the elite of the publishing world and the theater. He knew he was backsliding by writing 'soap opera'. However the art form he exhibited enabled him to tip toe across the line into greatness. His feelings about the tacky Irna Phillips were well known and he showed her the door. He also knew that a New Jersey valley girl like Jacqueline Courtney could never have the depth of feeling that Susan Harney conveyed as Alice. IT was the first time people really liked Alice when Harney took over. Those silly polls were fan club nonsense. People who would buy dozens of magazines to stack the deck. Lemay also knew that the typical Mother Matriarch like Mary Matthews was absurd. LIz Matthews and Ada Hobson were REAL women - and actresses.

[quote]LIz Matthews and Ada Hobson were REAL women - and actresses.

Bless you, r85.

[quote]IT was the first time people really liked Alice when Harney took over.

This is satire, right?

R87 I don't think so.

The daytime popularity polls were in magazines and fan clubs were very organized to make sure their favorites remained on top. I half wonder if money didn't change hands with the editors to keep certain network stars at the top.

Susan Harney brought warmth and NO melodrama to Alice. The previous portray-er was notorious for her weepiness.

Lemay didn't want to get rid of Mary Matthews, he just wanted to make her more like an Aunt Liz type. He wanted to portray Mary as a woman going through feelings of being left behind. Something a lot of women of that generation, with grown children, could relate to. The actress didn't want to play the character that way and was dispatched with. I think it was a mistake to get rid of the character, in the same way it was a mistake for ATWT to get rid of Chris and Nancy for a time. But sometimes long term soap actors are their own worst enemies. Sure, they know the character but sometimes just let the writer take you on a ride.

I recall Virginia Dwyer had a habit of ad-libbing....whole monologues rather than just a few lines. Personally losing the mother figure on a show is stupid. Ada and Liz couldn't fill the void left by Mary. The audience revolted and NBC got more mail for firing Mary than they did for firing George Reinholt.

Yes, Lemay said in his book that he killed off Mary Matthews because Virigina Dwyer ignored the script and ad libbed lines routinely.

While soap actors have been known to ad lib lines, they generally stay within the parameters of the purpose of the scene. Ginny Dwyer would change the entire direction or purpose of a scene with her ad libs, leaving other actors completely lost as how to respond.

Hey, folks - I am the OP of this thread and I love ATWT **and** GL **and** AW.

There's an ENTIRE ANOTHER WORLD THREAD, in fact - one that has been sorely in need of comments.

Perhaps the AW fans can discuss Bay City, Harding Lemay and my goddess Beverlee McKinsey in more detail at THAT thread?

Getting back to ATWT.....

I definitely agree that parts of Marland's era at ATWT were among the best of the show. ATWT in 1986 and 1987 was can't miss, in my opinion.

As with most soap writers - but especially so with Marland - his best work was looking at someone else's show, seeing what needed to be changed, and making it happen. The show dragged a bit when he lost all three of his female leads in a short time, and during that dreadful Carolyn Crawford mystery.

Liz Hubbard’s pussy stunk.

[quote]that dreadful Carolyn Crawford mystery

It was nice to see Rex Smith again, even though it was months before I realized Darryl Crawford was THIS Rex Smith.

[quote]that dreadful Carolyn Crawford mystery

We liked the Ellie/M&A/Craig/Gavin Kreuger silliness.

Just my opinion but I think we should go back to the Midwestern Towns concept so that the conversation could flow back and forth between all PG soaps.

I don't disagree, exactly, R97, but I don't have the history with GL that would make "Midwestern Towns" as interesting as separate AW and ATWT threads. But I'll post anywhere. If someone wants to revert to that, I'm game.

I'm usually the OP of these threads, R97. I was the OP of many of the Midwestern Towns threads (and came up w/the idea, thinking about all the town names, to go under the radar as we used to have to do in the past).

When I did Midwestern Towns all anyone ever did was bitch that either a show needed its own thread or that {fill in the blank} show was monopolizing the conversation.

I like that format too, but just sayin'.

Well, we can do a Midwestern Towns thread next time a Midwestern Show thread hits 600.

I really don't want to go back to Midwestern Towns. So much fighting. Can't each show have its own thread? Doesn't that just make more sense?

I'm not one who would bitch either way. This is one of those "wisdom to know the difference" issues for me.

Gavin Krueger probably got the biggest build up of a character ever and then the actor showed up and was a damp squib. He was conceived as a dynamic European man in his 40s, not totally unlike Victor Newman. They then recast it with a cookie cutter American in his early 30s, right?

I always thought Gavin sounded like mitteleuropa. And Mark Tymchyn certainly looked, well, uncut.

I don't know why they didn't just bring Franco Visconti back if that's what they wanted, R103.

Apparently Mark Tymchyn was from Minneapolis.

I remember somewhere a few years back that there was some kerfuffle about the role of Gavin. I think they had someone cast and then a short time before filming that guy was arrested or sent to jail or something. So Gavin #1 was actually Gavin #2, and probably the runner up in auditions. I know he was supposed to be far more European than the character actually was. Maybe the original was more dynamic.

Late 80's/early 90's ATWT may have been fabulous

But dear Jeebus it was unfashionable. The costume designer should have been flogged.

It was an old battleax soap. No cool people watched this old biddy soap.

Has said costume designer been working at GOOL? Strudelwear was actionable.

R102 I think I would prefer Midwestern Towns myself - I am huge AW fan, definitely enjoy ATWT, don't know much about GL (except that I think Robert Newman was and still is a hot man), but what I would really like to see is some discussion of SFT. But I doubt it would be able to carry its own thread.

OK I really just want to hear stories about what a terror Mary Stuart was....

[quote] I think Robert Newman was and still is a hot man

You are the reason I avoid reading GL threads. You ruined the last one with your raving about Josh.

And I am neither Serial Scholar nor Spicen.

Dear Mary Stuart was surprisingly vain for a woman who starting wearing slacks and had that old lady hairstyle. When Ann Marcus starting writing the show she wanted to focus on Patti, Joanne's daughter and Mary couldn't handle that. Marcus didn't last long - I think she went to Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman and Patti was dropped from the show for 12 years! There was a brief Patti return for Euince's funeral(Tina Sloan stayed a few months) but the supposed main heroine wanted her family members off the canvas, her sister, her daughter and then she wondered why storylines stopped revolving around her.

No R111, that wasn't me. I don't read GL threads. Sorry. I AM glad you're neither Serial nor Spicen. Jesus those two are annoying.

I think I have both Serial and Spicen (the REALLY annoying one) blocked.

R113 - I always wondered why the Patti in the mid 80s (Jacqueline Schultz?) was actually younger than her character should have been. A rare instance of reverse SORAS.

PG soaps were all quite incestuous. It just makes sense to go back to Midwestern Towns. But whatever works for the whole.

My favorite villain was Tad Channing. He was so much fun to hate. Didn't he end up in cement?

Serial psycho nutcase is so fucking stupid!!!!! We are all talking about him. Crazy mutherfuker!!!!!!!!!!!!! His family hates him.

OK, Marys. I'll do Midwestern Towns next time.

Now shush!

Tad did end up in cement but it was a snore story to me because Iva and Holden were too new to anchor it. And Doug never got a handle on how to write Steve.

Oh God, I couldn't disagree more with R121. That story was the ONLY time I ever felt anything but total disgust for Steve. Loved it as Iva's introduction, loved Lucinda's panic, loved the Snyder boys kicking ass and taking names, loved the actor who played Channing...

The climactic episode: the storm, the confusion, the miscommunication, the face slapping... WHAT A PAY-OFF!!! Probably my favorite ATWT episode ever.

What happened to Frank Runyeon, and wasn't he an asshole behind the scenes?

Frank was not loved by Meg Ryan that's for sure. He thought she was immature and needed acting lessons. He suggested she go to some acting coach CBS hired and said he would sit with her and get her to understand the subtext of their scenes. Meg was a journalism major before she was an actress so she took Frank's attempt to coach her and told him to f&ck off. Meg also HATED Frank's need to publicize himself and his wife. At one fan event Frank went on a lengthy rant about no, he and Meg were not married to each other, he had a beautiful wife and Meg has just starting dating, making her sound like an imbecile.

Frank also found Jesus and felt compelled to let everyone on the show know, which did not make any allies for him.

At the request of many of you whores....I combined the P&G soaps into one thread.

Also welcome to talk about the Doctors in there too.

I know this thread is relatively new, I leave it up to you bitches to post where you want.

Straw man argument/attack!

I imagine there'll be posts in both threads, kiddo.

In 1989 I was bed ridden for a couple months - I was flipping channels and happened to land on ATWT as young Andy Dixon was on screen. I was like “Ooh, he’s cute” so I watched.

After that, I never missed an episode until the show was cancelled in 2010. I’ve missed it sorely ever since.

Does anyone remember exactly how Andy's storyline ended?

I was watching something the other day...Courtney had left him and John had cancer. I think he faded out not long after that...came back as Chris' roommate at "Melrose Place" to be used by Molly, then left again.

Poor Scotty D has always been so homely!

I always found him adorable, and he's nothing like my type. On ATWT, Daniel Markel, Michael Morrison, and Jake Silbermann were the most "my type" actors.

There were really only 3 super-couples in the modern age of ATWT...Holden and Lily, Jack and Carly, and the first...Steve and Betsy. S&B were the couple that got me watching the show, and ATWT was essentially the Steve and Betsy Show for about 2 years. For a couple who really didn't care for each other offscreen, they had tremendous chemistry on-air. Their wedding was the show's highest rated moment, and the show's writers did a great job of stretching out their tortured relationship. (Of course, many think the other third of the triangle, Scott Bryce's Craig , is what really kept the plot sizzling!). When Meg left the role and was replaced by Lindsay Frost, the duo tanked. Frost was a better actress, but had zero chemistry with Runyeon. That, combined with the fact that new writer Doug Marland had no interest in the couple, sealed the end of one of the show's great duos.

Jeff and Penny were HUGE in the show’s early days.

Aunt Edie was a such a baddie!

Runeyon now goes from church to church with his one man show playing some Catholic saint. He was at my mom's local parish last year and she went to see him. She loved it, said he was wonderful. Apparently, he is very much in-demand on the church circuit. He must obviously dye his hair now but he has aged well. What was his ethnicity anyhow?

Anthony Herrera was tremendously underrated. And a fine person too.

A fine person abandons a daughter?

That's actually not accurate.

[quote] A fine person abandons a daughter?

There's more to the story. He tried to be a part of her life but I think Viva had a little Mia going on.....turning her daughter against him.

Right you are. He actually was quite proud of her. But, he wasn't a big fan of unconventional parenting. But, he was not that conventional.

So Herrerra stuck his dick in some chick, got her pregnant and then abandonded her? Karma got him in the end. Glad he croaked off. Slimeball.

What a lovely ignorant statement. Sad clown.

"There were really only 3 super-couples in the modern age of ATWT...Holden and Lily, Jack and Carly, and the first...Steve and Betsy."

Craig and Sierra were definitely a super-couple.

No, they weren’t, R145, not really. They were liked by some but they definitely didn’t reach “supercouple” status like Steve and Betsy.

OLTL was a thinking person's soap under Michael Malone from 92-94. (Although looking back it was RELENTLESSLY boring, with the exceptions being Marty's rape and Viki's DID)

Back to P&G soaps!

(I never watched the P&G soaps but have enjoyed old AW Youtube clips- and you guys are generally class acts, it is so refreshing)

You cannot discuss ABC soaps or Y&R without it being a trolled out mess.

R142 I don't know if he was proud of her or not. And perhaps he didn't make a great paternal figure.

Those interested in a nuanced examination of their relationship, and a look into his past, would do well to watch this episode of "Finding Your Roots."

As for super couples, though ratings were not what they were in the 70's-90's, Luke and Noah generated more publicity than ATWT had in 30 years. Love them or hate them.

ATWT's greatest gifts to the form was the multigenerational family and the bitch you couldn't take your eyes off. And that carried to show for a long time and the viewers kept it at #1. But ATWT, like all P&G shows went through this major identity crisis in the late 70s/early 80s and was deemed not with it and old fashioned. I can remember by Grandma having a hard time with the adventures of Tom and Margo and Steve and Betsy, because as she said, it just wasn't her story anymore.

[quote]ATWT's greatest gifts to the form was the multigenerational family and [bold]the bitch you couldn't take your eyes off[/bold].

I was [bold]SO[/bold] able to take my eyes off Carly Tenney.

Carly was Lisa. I will never understand how people hate on Carly.

Rosanna and Mike were a pretty popular couple.

I will never understand how people do not hate on Carly.

Nuke caused the cancellation of the show.

The thing about those classic villains like Lisa was that there was no gray about them (except they were all good mothers), like soap villains are written now. They were the spoilers and bad guys. Lisa was lazy and wouldn't help Nancy with house work and was fucking shoe salesman Dr. Matt Powers behind nice Dr. Bob's back. Everyone had clearly defined roles in the story. Lisa was only sorry when she got caught.

Carly was one of those new school villains who did bad things because there was some deep psychological reason behind it (she grew up poor, her daddy would sneak into her bed at night, there is always some reason) and all the bad things she did was more damaging to herself than to the people she hurt. She not only drove the story, she was the story and I think viewers may think that is a little too much for one character to handle.

I loved Carly because Carly was fierce. She was not a victim. She saw what she wanted and did everything to get it. Mealy-mouthed Rosanna who was all "poor me, I'm so rich" was just another wimpy Lily. Carly made things happen. I'm all Team Carly.

r157, are you the empathy hater?

I dont know who or what that is so im going to say no. Im the Jef Hamlin Troll, though

r159 There was a guy who started a thread a month ago or so about an episode of GH in which Maura West was so good, she assured herself the 2018 best actress emmy, in his opinion. TrollDar revealed him also to be someone who got a 97 on an "Are You a Sociopath?" quiz, which he justified by informing us that he thought empathy was the worst influence in the world, so he would naturally score high as a sociopath.

I liked Jef Hamlin, too.

[quote]The thing about those classic villains like Lisa was that there was no gray about them (except they were all good mothers), like soap villains are written now.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

My husband and colleagues say I am waaaay to empathetic.

You would know if you were the guy, R162?

Does anyone remember the sociopath quiz?

Serial Psycho is the sociopath. His family had him committed for 60 days last year because they were afraid of him. He’s certifiable. They plan on connitting him again soon.

Lisa was certainly the forerunner of Rachel, Erica, Julie an all those great soap bad girls. Eileen Fulton knew how to mine p.r. and the way the show treated her at the end was unforgivable. When I was little kid, my retired grandfather, who had been a construction worker, got to see what my Grandmother watched everyday and for poo-hooing soaps before that, he became hooked on Lisa. As a child of divorce I always wanted Bob to take Lisa back for little Tommy's sake.

R165, please don’t use the word “poo” in relation to Miss Eileen.

Lisa was a phenomenon; she and Penny and Jeff made the show the powerhouse it became. "Lisa" was also one of the most popular girl's name's in the 60s and I don't think it's a coincidence.

Lisa was the first bitch on TV. She also was more identifiable, I think, because she had a consistent goal for many years (Bob) and because she was a breath of fresh air in comparison to Nancy, the town blue bloods, etc.

Carly was well performed by Maura West, who is very good, but her motivations were a jumble and she was one of the show eaters. Lisa enlivened other characters by being near them. Carly did so only rarely, more frequently dominating all stories.

Texas Gov John Connolly, wounded in the JFK Assassination delayed his Warren Commission testimony telling the panel 'Nellie and I have to watch Lisa at 1pm'.

I was NEVER a fan of Lisa (way too fluttery and ditsy) except for the medical malpractice story, where, out of the blue she gave a fantastic performance. However, I must admit that ATWT became the powerhouse it did based on her character when the show started. The way she was treated at the end was horrible.

I loved it when Lisa was against Jessica and Duncan's relationship. It was just such a real reaction from that character, with that background, and of that age group. And through Lisa's reaction, I'm sure some people in the audience saw themselves and didn't like what they saw and made some changes in their own attitudes.

Lisa used to plug up Nancy’s toilet.

Didn’t Eileen Fulton hate when Marland had Lisa disapprove of Duncan and Jessica? I recall her bitching a lot in the soap press at the time about not having a storyline, and shortly afterward Scott Eldridge was brought on.

Eileen was hilarious when she played off the wonderful Ethel Remey who played her mother Alma. Alma had a crush on Grandpa Hughes at one point and Lisa was aghast - 'Mother you can't marry your grandson's grandfather!' Alma was adorable and tried to rein in Lisa. Alma also had that dithery way about her that Fulton had later.

My Mom watched for Penny and Jeff, and later Kim and Dan, but if you go to YouTube and look at the old episodes featuring Lisa, old ladies will just rant and rave about how much they loved her. Even during such snooze-worthy stories as The Willows mystery. I don't get it.

My grandmother must have either loved or hated Lisa. She was watching when Cronkite broke in.

This was such an old biddy soap opera.

Helen Wagner used to do her own shopping to do food prep for scenes in the Hughes kitchen. She used Crisco to make pie crusts and she would feed lunch to the crew and cast. She wanted to write a cookbook as herself but CBS said no.

Helen got around!

Helen’s pussy stunk!

Helen Wagner touched me in my no no place!

[quote] Nuke caused the cancellation of the show.

Please. The gays were the only things keeping ATWT and GL from being cancelled five years earlier, and they still weren't enough to fix everything else wrong with them.

I kinda did laugh when Mary-Ellis Bunim booted cunty Helen Wagner off the show. Fulton the toilet plugger was next.

Mary Ellis Bunim died years before Helen Wagner so Karma gets ya....

There are som episodes of ATWT from around 1983 with Betsy von Furstenberg as Lisa and she’s awful, like a bad impersonation of Eileen Fulton. No wonder they were going to kill Lisa off then....until Eileen heard of their plans and agreed to come back, which led to Whit’s death. Whit McColl and his bad toupee were so unattractive so no loss there.

I thought we were talking about Andy.

Its actually an all things ATWT thread.

There’s nothing to say about Andy. He was a bore and was ugly. End of story.

Andy is the host of this thread, not its exclusive topic.

Melanie Smith should've won an Emmy for being able to carry off pretending to me in lust with Paul Ryan as played by Andrew Kavovit!

Melanie Smith was everything. That was another character ruined by a recast.

Melanie was sex on a stick.

I liked Andy Kavovit. I wish he had never left, either.

Melanie Smith and Emmy should never be in the same sentence. That’s a good one - Melanie Smith winning an emmy! lololololololol

Did The Cunts fire Andy Kavovit?

Another Kavovit fan here. Never should have been recast.

I like Andy Kavovit too. But it looked like a Robbing the cradle situation with Melanie Smith.

Dusty and Andy spit-roasting Paul was a recurrent fantasy for me.

Andrew Kavovit’s Paul was way too pasty white for Melanie Smith’s Emily. Ming-Na Wen even made a crack about his pasty white body on a Saturday morning public access show!

According to Colleen Zenk-Pinter (Barbara), his nickname on set was "Casper" because he was so pale.

I always thought it was creepy when Melanie Smith was supposed to sell us on her affections for Andy Kavovit. She was just so sexual and fiery (she and Holden really should have been the long-term couple, if Smith stayed with the show).

R201, since Lily and Holden were (arguably) the biggest couple in the show's history, you may be mistaken.

The world according to Colleen: spread your legs!!!!

Andy Kavovit was pink. With blue highlights.

What did Lucinda do to Whit MacColl? The first episode I saw was in 1987, right when Craig and Betsy crashed in Greece and Lily had run away after learning Iva was her mother (man, was it a great time to start) and Lisa was at Sierra's and Lucinda was telling Lisa about the threat Lisa had made to destroy her after what she did to Whit and Lisa said, "I did say that, didn't I?" Had that been years earlier?

Then Lily called and Lucinda grabbed the phone and all hell broke loose.

Loved how, for years, when the show would fade to a commercial, there wouldn't be any dramatic musical cues, just a silent fade. When I started watching again years later, they did have the musical fadeouts and I hated it.

After the Willows storyline, Lisa didn't have a lot going on and Eileen Fulton left the show. They brought Lisa back with Betsy von Furstenberg as Lisa with a new family, the McColls. There was patriarch Whit; oldest, most-solid child Brian; flighty, favorite Diana; and surly, youngest Kirk. There was also housekeeper Dorothy Connors and her son Jay, Kirk's best friend. Eventually Whit's company was under threat of takeover by Lucinda and when Whit was killed, Lisa suspected Lucinda. From then on, Lisa hated Ol' Lucy. (Dorothy revealed she killed Whit and that Whit had fathered her son Jay. Kirk and Diana left town not to long after. Brian lingered, having relationships with Barbara, Shannon, and finally Duncan's daughter/sister Beatrice.)

Doug Marland wrote The Willows storyline.

Melanie Smith achieved TV immortality by being the one who barges in on George Costanza and seeing his shrinkage after he'd been in the pool.

I bet Marland originally wrote the Willows storyline to end differently based on his second shot at writing it as the Douglas Cummings story.

I worked as a bg actor during the McColl’s era and Christian LeBlanc would often refer to his character Kirk as the show’s Tad Martin. I remember saying to myself “I don’t think so.”

LeBlanc was cute enough. The problem was the writing and the actress they had playing Frannie who had negative charisma.

Any other stories to share, r211? Any Jacques Perrault let his robe open to me to expose his giant French-Canadian member stories?

Hah! Non. I did want Michael Swan inside me quite deeply. He seemed like a very nice, friendly guy.

I heard that the girl who played Frannie back then died a few years ago.

[quote] I did want Michael Swan inside me quite deeply. He seemed like a very nice, friendly guy.

Unless you're gay.

Was LeBlanc as big a pussy hound back then as he is now?

Heh heh, R215. He seemed asexual to me.

The pre Julianne Moore Frannie did indeed pass away at 46.

Sad she died young, but Terri VandenBosch was TERRIBLE as Frannie.

The Frannie after Julianne Moore was very good, but following the future Oscar winner was tough to do.

That last Frannie....wasn't she married to Johnny Bauer from GL???

I agree, R219, and I think getting rid of the character of Frannie was a huge mistake. She was the ultimate legacy character and should have remained in Oakdale for the entire run of the show.

Recasts on soaps went two ways--get a replacement who is similar to the predecessor so it will be less "jarring" for the viewers, or go the exact opposite and cast someone totally different and gamble that viewers will except the character as a "new" version.

Option #2 was what ATWT did when Julianne left. Mary Ellen Stuart was pretty, charming, and a good actress, but as a soap journalist at the time said, she was too "robust" after Julianne's fragile, award-winning take. Claire Beckman was better as Sabrina #2, even though it was odd that now the sisters looked nothing alike.

That's around the time I stopped watching regularly.

There was a paternity twist in the McColl family, but I believe it was that Dorothy was revealed to be Kirk's mother, not that Whit had fathered Jay. Thus, Kirk and Jay were half siblings but through Dorothy, not Whit.

Mary Ellen Stuart is wed to Mark Wheeler who was Mindy's husband Kurt on Guiding Light.

I agree that MES was too 'robust' to take over Julianne's Frannie, they lost that fragile element. But I adored her on GL.

I think every young actor who went on to get a NY soap tried out for Tad. Knight brought something so different they grabbed him of course.

Loved his line to Marian one time after they'd hit the skids: "Marian, you're so chique (only he purposely mispronounced it 'chick.'"

Stuart sang Someone to Watch Over Me at Marland's memorial in Los Angeles (the valley, actually), yes, I was there. It was a who's who of his actors, those on the west coast. Jane Elliot, Denise Alexander, Leslie Charleson, some Reardons and lots of folks from Oakdale.

It was so odd because Doug was gone and he took all the characters with him in a way.

I agree with the critics who say that other than Lisa suing John and some of the Hogan stuff ATWT had failed after Marland's death.

I think the best recast ever on ATWT was Hillary B. Smith as Margo.

The worst was Scott Holmes who brought a Don Stewart pompousness to Tom Hughes.

Runner up was Kelley whatever her name was as Emily.

Hello? No one remembers me?

Love how, on ATWT, "European" always seemed to be synonymous with "louche," "promiscuous" and "implicitly bisexual" (or perhaps the latter bit was just my imagination).

They had a sophisticated Swiss character on the show years ago (Nicole?) who ran in the same circles as Franco Visconti (love the cartoon-ish names!). The woman was fluent in four languages, but small-town cop Margo Hughes described her earnestly as having a "a fooooreign accent." American provincialism versus European cosmopolitanism.

Here's Claire Bloom talking about her stint on As The World Turns:

[quote]Runner up was Kelley whatever her name was as Emily.

As "worst recast ever," you mean.

R228, yes, she was the worst female recast.

I would have gone to Melanie Smith to come back at any time.

Just like GL did with Grant and John Bolger.

Scott Holmes was definitely the worst Tom..surprised he lasted so long. Nothing appealing about him at all.

Granted, Justin Deas was a great actor and had something sexy about him, and Greg Marxx was also a great actor and BLAZING hot. Tough acts to follow.

And yes, they should have never stopped trying to get Melanie Smith back. She was probably my second favorite "younger" ATWT actress (after Julianne of course) and was very underrated. I could never buy that Holden would want frumpy, gummy Lily instead of smoking hot Emily. Smith had "it".

Then that blond lady took over and Emily became just another blond soap chick.

Melanie Smith’s pussy stunk.

[quote]Then that blond lady took over and Emily became just another blond soap chick.

It was part of the ABCization of P&G. The new Rosanna was another prime example. And Podd. Can't forget Podd.

"Mary Ellen Stuart was pretty, charming, and a good actress, but as a soap journalist at the time said, she was too 'robust' after Julianne's fragile, award-winning take."

I felt it worked because Frannie had gotten so much stronger after her psychotherapy and her breakup with Seth.

"I agree that MES was too 'robust' to take over Julianne's Frannie, they lost that fragile element. But I adored her on GL."

According IMDB, she was never on GL, and I don't remember her being on it.

I never saw Julianne Moore on ATWT, but I remember Mary Ellen Stuart being "the new Frannie." I liked her fine. The show was so good, and there was no one for me to compare her to. Why did she leave?

[quote]It was part of the ABCization of P&G

At some point I think they just give up and say what the fuck can I do to get people to sample this motherfucking show. And it is almost always never let's improve the writing. It's always let's bring actors from other shows or duplicate what other shows are doing. If ABC is getting ratings with a rapist with a perm, then damn it get me a rapist with a perm on my show so these bitches will watch it.

From what I remember reading, Doug wrote Frannie out after the Crawford mystery concluded, but he intended to bring her back shortly thereafter. Mary Ellen Stuart’s contract was up so it worked out.

They should have kept all three of Kim’s surrogate daughters on the show-Betsy, Frannie and Barbara. Watching old episodes on YouTube I really like Lindsay Frost. She just needed a better leading man.

"it was that Dorothy was revealed to be Kirk's mother, not that Whit had fathered Jay."

You're right. I got that backwards.

Claire Bloom was SO good on ATWT. When they had to replace her with a standard soap opera actress, all the magic went out of the role for a standard villainess performance.

One scene always stands out for me during Mary Ellen Stuarts tenure as Frannie..... when she was trapped with Rex Smith on that miles-high ski transport. Scary scene.

[quote]Claire Bloom was SO good on ATWT. When they had to replace her with a standard soap opera actress, all the magic went out of the role for a standard villainess performance.

The storyline was so bad, though...Lily on lemon drops? Or was it postage stamp glue? I wasn't around any longer when they replaced Claire Bloom. Who played Orlooney next?

I think it was an American, wasn’t it?

It was Lynn Milgrim.

OMG Lynn Milgrim? The worst Susan Shearer ever on Another World. And from me that's saying something.

Why did Liz Hubbard fumble over her lines all the time? It was annoying.

R244, because she was ad-libbing.. Eileen Fulton fumbled as well.

Hello Barbara

Liz didn't ad lib b/c she couldn't remember lines; she did it to keep people on their toes.

This is simple, but kind of sweet; she tells Hey You he's handsome and you can see the actor genuinely respond; he wasn't expecting it.

Go to 5:33

You had to get me started, r247. Once I get going on Old Oakdale, I can't stop. There's even some Andy avec tousle.

Poor Andy was so god damned homely! Ugly.

R234, Mary Ellen Stuart was on GL briefly. She was involved professionally with Ross, an ADA or associate or something. The character wasn’t on for long, maybe six months tops, and I’m pretty sure MES wasn’t on contract.

For a while, ATWT was doing the closed captioning from the script instead of the performance. You could see how close the actors were to the scripted lines.

Before he was fired, Tom Wiggins wasn't having any part of La Hubbards ad libs. He would say his line as scripted, regardless of how poorly it fit with what she said. He was just out of fucks to give with her.

Shawn Christian always said he lines precisely as scripted. Not a single word changed.

Helen Wagner would have HATED working with Liz Hubbard and she would not have put up with any of that ad lib shit. Another actress she detested was Judith McConnell as Valerie Conway. Nancy was cold as ice to Valerie mirroring what Wagner thought of 'one of those California actresses.' Helen could even cast shade over the seemingly sweet Rita McLaughlin who played her granddaughter in law Carol. When McLaughlin's husband, a Protestant Minister named Norman Walter was hired to perform marriage ceremonies on the show she bellowed 'now she's not only schilling Pampers, she's got HIM on the show now! Loved Helen.

[quote] Andy Dixon's Trouser Snake

The thread we all really wanted.

Helen Wagner’s pussy smelled. She was a miserable old fuck.

Oh, yes, R253.

Does anyone remember when Dean Santoro's hairpiece fell off his head in the early 70's? He put it right back on and kept going. The show was live. Jane House had to bite her lip not to laugh. The camera stayed on him the whole time.

There was another incident where the ceiling caved in on a restaurant scene. I think Eileen Fulton and Jerry Lacy were involved. Neither said a word and ignored the noise.

My favorite - Peter Galman was pushing Meredith Hart on a swing and she got off but the swing brushed back - right into Galman's side and he winced. Again the actors didn't acknowledge what happened.

R234, she was a cop; she was Ross' date at the Spaulding gala where Phillip dethroned Alan (brilliant story) and I remember her being on in 87 so it was six months or more.

Mary Ellen was also on GL briefly circa summer of 85 playing a reporter who interviewed Lujack about his music.

also, IMDB.com is awful at listing soap stuff.

R243, Milgrim also played Myra Fielding (sp?), the judge in the Douglas Cummings (aka Dougie Kamanksi) murder trial.

She was good in that with her "I'm warning your, Mr. Hobson" and her "I expect better of you, Mr. Hughes" that.

Here's Mary Ellen Stuart on GL

Go to 1:12.

Helen Wagner stammered over her lines as much as anybody and whenever the show would go to flashbacks from the early days, you coudl see she never mastered her lines completely. She was one to get all high and mighty.

Helen had every right to be high and mighty. She was in the 1st scene of the 1st show and recited the 1st line. She was the matriarch of the main family.

Helen always told the cast members, especially the newbies, to never go into the bathroom after LaFulton has been in there. Pee you!

Was Helen Wagner in the scene when the news of the shooting of JFK broke?

Yes, r264.

Thanks R265. I suppose she has earned some right to bitchiness.

Do NOT mess with Helen Wagner. I do not even know how to assess her acting skills but I was so glad that ATWT made the attempt, successfully, to keep her as part of the cast. I remember my mother loving this show. I really got addicted to it partly due to those memories, and like many things, why someone loves a show or enjoys a performance is a very personal thing. So, thanks, Mom, for my becoming a big ATWT fan until it ended.

The thing about Nancy that Marland sort of lost, was that she was supposed to be a bit of a pain in the ass. She was flawed from the beginning. One of the main plot points at the start was that Penny felt like she was competing for her mother's affection with her sister Susan's ghost. Later on, Nancy's willingness to forgive Lisa for anything irked her family. She was a meddling, know-it-all. Even when she came back for Bob and Kim's wedding, she was scolding Frannie and telling B&K they couldn't possibly consider living in Kim's house.

I remember a late 60's Christmas ep where Nancy invited ex daughter in law LIsa and everyone was on edge. Nancy smoothed things over. She realized LIsa loved her son and grandson and was deeply flawed. Nancy had a great friendship with Lisa' mother Alma as well. So for being the per-snickety nag she was Nancy had her moments.

The real war at ATWT was between Irna Phillips and Rosemary Prinz. Rosemary as Penny was the most popular soap star of her day and once she realized she had CBS/P&G over a barrel she made outrageous demands and got all of them. Irna didn't like having to concede to anyone so she would write, as Prinz herself re-called, scenes where Penny would put down her looks or how boring she was and grateful that any man would notice her. Hilarious.

Why didn’t Goutman make Helen Wagner tape a spot where she says Goodnight Dear so that he could insert it on the last episode? He screwed up by not doing that.

Goutman had Nancy (off screen) babysitting Katie's baby. Yeah every one wants a 95 year old doing that!

It would have been morbid to have Wagner tape the final "goodnight, dear" scene just in case she didn't make it to the finale.

R273 So?

It would have been cool if a still alive Wagner was in a coffin and just before she drops the lid saying 'goodnight dear'. Much more effective.

They should have taped her saying Goodnight Dear while Wagner was on her deathbed.

Scott DeF was so homely, with no firm jawline and nary an ab muscle in sight. A recast with someone like Cameron Mathison or Kevin McClatchy would have been delicious, but those old nursing home biddies who comprised the main demo wouldn't hear of it.

Irna was no fan of Helen’s. She tried to get rid of her, but the fans had already fallen in love and it was the one time that Irna didn’t give a big fuck you to the fans. Because Irna was famous for telling fans to fuck off when they wrote letters.

All those old-school matriarchs were so cunty...Nancy Hughes, Bert Bauer, Alice Horton, Liz Matthews.

Nancy Hughes: Did her pussy stink? Well did it?

Why did they start writing Ellen as if she were Nancy's contemporary, when she was on the same generational level as Bob, Kim, Lisa, Penny, etc.? I know Patsy Bruder was always matronly looking, but she was much younger than that old bag Wagner.

it was a combination of Ellen marrying a much older man, David, and the show aging her kids so fast. they had to put her hair in a bun to make her look older.

Doug was very kind to Patsy and Ellen, keeping them both on the show for a long time. He also kept the Kim/Betsy relationship going long after Dan was dead and Betsy had grown up.

When Kim was on trial for killing Douglas Cummings, Ellen referenced the time she'd been on trial for committing a murder. Who does threads like that today?

Today, we have Brooke yelling at Bill how bad it was to sleep with two people in the same family. (Really, Brooke?)

Back in the 80s, if my VCR didn't record ("turn the power off to turn the timer on!") I'd be bummed out, those episodes lost forever as I didn't know anyone else who recorded them.

It's so ironical (yes, I know that's not a word) that we have all these platforms to watch these shows but today they're just not worth watching.

They aged Ellen's son Dan too much. Then aged her daughters. And with Penny gone her original place on the canvas was lost.

By the time Dan died, they had Kim calling her "Mom." The only trace left of real Ellen was her hatred of Lisa.

Dan should have been Tom Hughes ‘ contemporary, and Paul Stewart should have been the one involved with Susan, Liz and Kim.

Why did they marry off Patsy to that ancient geezer Henderson Forsythe? He looked older than Santos Ortega

Hank Forsythe said that Patsy Bruder had a smelly twat.

I remember Marland writing a scene where Nancy, Ellen and Lisa were gathered around a coffee table, drinking coffee and discussing the goings on in town like soaps had done decades earlier. It was a nice throwback. Ellen didn't seem to hate Lisa then.

Cameron Mathison as Andy? Shall we drown r277 in the OYC pool or the Snyder pond?

Cam at the height of his beauty would've made an ideal Andy. Now THIS would've been perfect cast as the son the Kathy Hays and Larry Bryggman. Andy with muscles. Andy with abs. Andy with a square jaw. Andy with a bubble butt that just wouldn't quit. Alas, what could've been. No one except 98-year-old dementia patients in the home wanted to see that homely, lumpy Scott shirtless and doing love scenes.

But we would have had to listen to him rasp. I mean "talk."

Also, it would've been great if they decided to have Cam's Andy use "Drew" as a nickname, which is much sexier than blah "Andy." "Drew Dixon" sounds like a porn name, which would've made the character all the more sexy and hot. I can hear the voiceover now: The role of Drew Dixon is now being played by Cameron Mathison. Oh the possibilities.

He could have been another Paul Ryan or Chris Hughes. They were usually generic soapstudly enough. But Scott DeFreitas WAS Andy Dixon.

Maura and Scott! Now there's a looks-discordant couple. He must have a magic dick, cuz he ain't much in the looks department.

He's better looking than Poutypussy.

I'm not going to slag on the actor's looks. But I think that the son of John Dixon should have been more dynamic and edgy. Maybe a little more driven, like John was. In real life sons don't turn into their fathers, but on TV and in film it makes for interesting characters when the son follows a similar path to the father. And people forget this but Kim was a naughty little scheming thing when she first showed up in town. So the fact that Andy was this sad sack door mat and drunk when he was the offspring of two troublemakers was kind of a waste.

Actually, the family resemblance between Jon Hensley and Cameron Mathison is so strong, people would have wondered why he wasn't playing the latest Caleb Snyder. It would have been distracting, even. Armie Hammer looks a little like them, too.

What would you bitches have thought of Robert Tyler as nuPaul and Grant Aleksander as nuAndy? Can you imagine all the shirtless scenes and the smoldering homoerotic chemistry these two would have had on screen? The gay demo would have increased 1,000%. Would've made viewers forget about homely Scott and Casper the Friendly Ghost.

[quote] Grant Aleksander as nuAndy

Obviously GA is waaaaaaaaaaay too associated with the program that came on after ATWT, but yeah to Barry Kaufman, especially if he would have stayed forever, so we didn't have to watch Podd.

Who the fuck is Barry Kaufman?

Mark Menard is a dreamboat and would've made a hot, hot Andy. Andy would've be an ever-shirtless hunky drunk. Finally, an Andy that female viewers would want to fuck them. Menard was very good on AMC.

[quote]Who the fuck is Barry Kaufman?

Robert Tyler's real name. He was actually on ATWT in 1988, as "Spence."

[quote]Mark Menard is a dreamboat and would've made a hot, hot Andy. Andy would've be an ever-shirtless hunky drunk.

Or yet another shirtless soaphunk. Andy Dixon was better than your generic ideal.

Some recent photos of Eileen Fulton

Eileen shits herself these days. This is an old article.

Benjamin Hendrickson probably would not be the cup of tea for those who want to wish away Scott D. as Andy, but despite him not being conventionally handsome, I still found him to be sexy and in possession of a strong screen presence as Hal Munson. I should have thought of mentioning him much earlier. And the sadness surrounding his exit from this world still tugs at my heart.

[quote]Menard was very good on AMC.

He was nice eye candy, but could barely act his way out of a paper bag. Also couldn't convincingly pay straight. Everything about his screamed GAY.

People hiring talentless models is one of the reasons soaps have died.

r289 = Felicia Mini Bear

r295 = Mickey Against Daytime Drama

P&G were smart. They knew that female viewers 18-49 did not find Scott D. attractive in the least and that they didn't want to watch Roger Thorpe as a wizened old man with ALS.

r309 were dumb.

Scott was perfectly fine as Andy, who in spite of his drinking problem was sort of like Bob-upstanding, all American, clean cut. John Dixon didn’t look like a male model, and while Kathy Hays was pretty she was also rather unusual looking.

Paul should have been sexier and more dangerous, however-he was the son of James and Barbara, who were both beautiful.

Didn't they have a couple of "sexy, dangerous" Pauls before settling on Podd?

Before Howarth there was a model who couldn't act then a nice guy southerner who was all wrong for the role of Paul.

The post-Kavovit Pauls and the adult Chrises have all been indistinguishable from each other, except for Roger Howarth (though that distinction may only exist for former watchers of OLTL). This level of genericness is what r289 wanted for Andy Dixon. Glad she never got her way.

[quote]The post-Kavovit Pauls and the adult Chrises

All bland brownblonds. Mouse-colored hair.

[quote]All bland brownblonds. Mouse-colored hair.

Cameron Mousethison hair.

Cameron Mathison as Drew Dixon would've made me (and my dick) sit up and take notice at that old biddie show. Scott left me underwhelmed and did nothing for my dick. Then again, unlike some of you lunatics, I watched these shows for the hot guys and unintentionally funny, awful, campy dialogue/storylines, and not to desperately try and find a fictional family/town that would accept me after my real family rejected me for being "different."

Glad you had no power, R317. Someone who watches soaps "for (his) dick" doesn't deserve any, particularly during the pornstravaganza known as the 1980s.

"Cameron Mathison as Drew Dixon" would've made me shriek and scream at the idiocy of those two bitches from ABC. In fact, I'm still not convinced R317 isn't FMB or MADD.

r318, doll, if these shows hadn't started casting mouth-watering male underwear models in the 1980s and on, they wouldn't have survived as long as they did. You think watching ugly guys like Henderson Forsythe and Bryggman and DeFrietas bedding every woman in town would've kept the demos high? It was even painful watching them trying to make us believe hot women would fall over themselves for the likes of Hal Munson (RIP).

Fat lot of good it did them, r320.

Larry Bryggman was such a hunk! lol

Get your eyes checked STAT, r322.

I liked DeFreitas and Kavovit as Andy and Paul. They looked like real teens and acted like real teens. And year later, Andy even got up to his dad's old tricks by faking paralysis, something Kim called John out on when he said something to the effect of, "Who does something like that?" Kim's answer: "You did!"

Exactly, R324. Different people like different things in soaps, and ATWT fans loved the (relative) realism of it. Yes, there were hunks like Hensley and Bloom, and that's okay because there are hunks in real life, too! But the hunks were balanced with the Hals, the Toms, the Johns, the Bobs, and the next generation of Andys and Pauls.

If I'd wanted something else, I would have changed over to ABC (shudder). But I didn't.

ABC put out the worst soaps, didn't they, r325? I always made fun of my sister for watching AMC. I didn't mind OLTL, but it got stupid, too.

They should have brought Steve Andropolous back in the early aughts to terrorize Lucinda, Sierra and Lily, maybe with a son, to extract revenge on Lucinda for stealing his company and causing him to leave Oakdale and end up in prison.

I agree, R327, but I think there was just too much bad blood there.

Tom Hughes (Gregg Marx) tousled Andy's hair in a scene; Nancy was in it too; Tom joked to Andy people did that to him when he was his age so now he's getting it done, too.

It was a nice affectionate moment between a hunky step-brother and his then-if-you-thought-of-him-sexually-you-were-a-pervert step-brother.

I remember after Nancy moved out of the garage apartment to live with new hubby Mac, hunky Hank Eliot moved in. Bob and Kim talked about having a gay live so close to their family and they were okay with it (of course! They were Bob and Kim!)

It would have been interested if Doug had made Andy gay. I think this was all pre-Julie so it was possible. But P&G would never allow a core family member to be gay, not in the 80s.

Towards the end Helen Wagner started to get confused about who was who. She thought Van Hansis was 'Penny' and Jake Silbermann 'Judge Lowell'

Judge Lowell supposedly had a pendulous dong too, so her mistake was understandable.

R330 is my new favorite. He could have taken the easy route and had Jake Silbermann be Jeff, but no... he went to Judge Lowell. Well played. I'd give you a blow job if you were next door. Kudos.

The scenes when David Stewart died, everyone came back and Ellen dealt with Betsy, et al confirmed for me how truly terrible Patsy Bruder was as an actress. She must have been a leftover from the old school of acting.

Here's a pic of Patsy in the '70s, when Ellen had 30-something sons. She looks pretty youthful here, and it must've been tough for her to play so much older than her real age.

The most scandalous never seen story on ATWT was the secret love affair between Grandpa HUGE Hughes and Judge On The Down LOW-ell. Luke and Noah were nothing compared to them. They used to meet in Pa's basement tool room and the things done with Judge Lowell's gavel would have made P&G squirm!

Poor Andy.

He's been cheated, been mistreated.

When will he....be loved????

^When he walks out of the shower looking like this!

The person who suggested that Andy should have been played by Cam Matheson needs to be publicly buggy whipped.

If anything, Andy should have been played by a guy that looked like the last Chris Hughes (Daniel Cosgrove).

Then again, I liked DeFrietas. I wish they would have kept him. Eastenders still has Ian Beale, and he's gotten fat and bloaty....DeFrietas looks better, one assumes.

Not only was Tom Andy's step-brother, he was also his brother-in-law.

I heart you, R336.

"Due to homeliness, the role of Drew Dixon is now being played by Clayton Norcross."

"Drew" Dixon would never have been more than an evil twin.

I eat out Maura West’s snatch. Jealous bitches?

Douglas Cummings kidnaos Kim and Frannie!

Andy Dixon Troll, we stand in solidarity with you!