HBO's The Gilded Age, Thread 7

Link to the last thread:

Louisa Jacobson has the acting range of late-period Terri Schiavo.

I want to see more of Doug Sills! Love him

Fun article about the real-life inspirations for "Gilded Age" characters.

It's amazing how much the actress who plays Mrs. Fish looks like the real woman.

That actress who plays Mrs. Astor may never get such a fabulous role again.

Like a few of the posters from the other threads, I would fall asleep during every episode. However, the last 2 or 3 I’ve been able to make it through the whole thing without nodding off.

My mother, however, has slept through every single one, & is a huge Baranski & Downton fan.

I’m hoping that after Oscar marries Gladys, a fringe benefit for him will be getting into hot brother Larry’s pants. You know he wants that ass.

There’s 2 episodes left. Not one, right? OP is seriously confusing everything.

The next episode showing on March 21st is episode 9, "Let the Tournament Begin": the season finale.

So you are incorrect. r8.

Uh oh

thank you for creating a new thread

What a delberately cunty writer for that article, r10. He should go on the show and square off against the butlers.

From the wikipedia page for Roger Friedman, the writer of the piece at r10:

[quote] In 1996 he told Amazon founder Jeff Bezos: "Your Amazon idea's ridiculous. Why'd anyone do that? Who'd buy that way? People can go right to bookstores. The idea's dumb. It'll never work."

So I guess I'm not ready to take his predictions of doom very seriously.

I'm really hoping that the show (or, whoever) do some type of documentary focusing on the show's costume design. The dresses, suit construction, and tailoring are amazing. Has anyone taken note of the buttons on these dresses? Top notch! What a budget they have/had for costume design! Also, I'd like to learn more about the set design along with the set dressings. Did anyone else take note of the Russell's alligator luggage (valises and/or trunks) that was being loaded as they left for Newport? Just BEAUTIFUL! The primary thing running through my mind? Horchow Collection!

[quote]So I guess I'm not ready to take his predictions of doom very seriously.

Agreed, R13. Once I saw the word "FOX" I stopped reading and consequently dismiss his review.

[quote]Uh oh

[italic]There is also, alas, bad news. The audience found by “The Gilded Age” is not one advertisers or TV execs want. They are OLD. They are over 55, just about all of them. On Monday night, only 20,000 of the 701,000 were between 18 and 55. Almost the entire audience watched the show from bed, some from hospital beds. Everyone who saw “The Gilded Age” was taking Lipitor, and not buying new cars or clothes or homes.[/italic]

Well I never!

What is so dumb about the article is it’s on HBO which doesn’t use advertisers. They use subscription so who cares as long as old people are subscribing and watching. Of course young straight people arent going to watch this. That’s why NBC passed several times. Also there are no stars in this except theatre stars. Even Baranski is only kinda known and Cynthia isn’t known to the general public outside of SATC. I doubt many boys who are 23 who are the key Demo are like “Thank God finally a tv show starring Celia Keenan Bolger.” “Finally cable has found a way to use Donna Murphy”

Such morons

I was convinced young Jack was bringing flowers to one of the boywhores of The Alienest. Imagine my disappointment.

I thought Turner (Bertha's ex maid) got her hooks into him, using him for a new, devious scheme.

Ya'll realize that a lot of the viewers of this show don't even watch on HBO cable, right? They, including myself, watch it on HBO Max. HBO Max has this show as one of it's primary subscripton enticements.

That article is dumb. Streaming subscription sites are the future.

+1 with r14.

Even if cheap "reality" dreck didn't condition us to expect a low bar when it comes to set decoration and costuming, theses TGA costumes would be a luxury to see.

It's why I loved PBS's "Mr. Selfridge" so much; well, that, and it was, for at least the first two seasons, compelling "true" melodrama.

Is there a docuseries about period costume design? I think these type of in-depth behind the scenes feature could make a great series (each episode dealing with a different show from past and present shows). Showcasing the conceptual designs and putting them together with interviews of the people involved.

[quote]They are OLD. They are over 55, just about all of them.

well, we won't have Anything to do with the New, now, will we?

Next season must focus heavily on Bertha's horse trading Gladys' future, whatever calamity befalls the Streepwalker, Peggy's kid (sorry, I think that's going to get real boring real fast) and maybe Bertha building another house, along with many and various minor subplots that Fellowes starts and stops and abandons or forgets about.

Almost all the servant storylines need to go. These are minor supporting roles, they're for extras. When you've got two houses, it's too much. And then there's the strange set of affairs that the two leading ladies of the two (barely) rival houses, have barely to do with one another. The tension between the houses is reduced the Agnes' same old tut-tut every time she hears the name Russell.

It's like two mini shows within one and now the threat of a third with Peggy back in Brooklyn looking for her long lost child.

Does Donna Murphy actually talk in the whispery, stuffed sinuses voice or is that her interpretation of a grand dame?

Coons only seems to act when Bertha is humiliated, so hopefully we'll have that. And hopefully more of Mrs, Fish.

She's totally putting on the voice. I wonder if there's a dialogue coach who's given some direction this is what ladies of a certain age sounded like. Although Cynthia Nixon sounds like herself and I think Coon does too?

Speaking of the voice, shouldn't some of them be sounding like Joanna Barnes as Gloria Upson, with her intonations of "top drawer" and "just ghastley?" Or is this time period too soon for that?

R16 There we’re even a few watching from their Iron Lungs.

No more shirtless scenes with John Adams or Mr Russell?? What a waste. This whole season has been a disappointment. CUT OUT THE SERVANTS' STORYLINES (and preferably Marian entirely) and give us more John Adams and Oscar fucking in bed or Mr. Russell sleeping in the nude!!

Let’s hope Celia convinces Uncle Julian to hire her brother AKB to play the Russell’s wayward carriage house stable boy who is fucked “Looking” style by creepy next door neighbor Oscar in one of the horse stalls.

Poor Gladys seemed to have more chemistry with Adams than Oscar. Oscar's creepy. His hair is creepy, his eyes are creepy, his sunglasses are creepy. He's totally creepy.

Is Bertha's dress sense contemporary, fashion forward or tacky?

I appreciate the detail of the costumes but find almost everything on everybody garish, which I suppose reflects the time. The best dressed for me are the Streeplet and, unexpectedly, Nixon... their dresses are least fussy of the lot.

Oscar is channeling Gary Oldman in Dracula.

I love the actor playing John Adams. He’s hot and fun and seems down for anything. They need to write him in more. Oscar is boring and bitchy.

^ Agreed. I wonder if Oscar's storyline got stolen out from under him after that scene. It may be Oscar is pursuing Adams who's after Gladys' money. At least Adams laid on the charm. Oscar does seem like a Snidely Whiplash/Vincent Price mash up.

Oscar is straight up homely.

R34 Gilded Age ladies would go to Paris to buy their wardrobes, Worth’s primarily. It would be cutting edge fashion, but they would put the new purchases away for about a year or so and wear their old stuff until fashion caught up and then they would bring out their latest fashion that would now be in season. Bertha is being presented as having purchased them there, but wearing them immediately. As to why hasn’t been made explicit- that she doesn’t know better, or that she’s purposely trying to shake things up by being fashion forward. Apparently, Coon’s specific wardrobe was pushed even further then the original designs created for Peet, and then with the success of Bridgerton.

Oscar, Gladys and John Adams need to invent the “Newport Marriage,” the Gilded Age version of the throuple. They could be like the earlier iteration of PaJaMa, the Paul Cadmus, Jared French and Margaret French relationship that will happen in the future. They could be OsGlJo!

^ That makes sense. I looked at some Worth dresses and gowns.... you see a lot of Bertha's style there, particularly the blacks and whites and the day dress effect of a wide sash below the waist (I thought that was thrown in to hide the pregnancy but it must have been a happy coincidence.) Many Worths were stunning and sometimes comparatively simpler. We've all seen something like this on B-raptor, although it's 1896:

R40 that dress is beautiful and would work as well in the present as it did 125 years ago.

^Thanks, R40!

[quote]that dress is beautiful and would work as well in the present as it did 125 years ago.

Yes, R41! I believe that I have seen Diana Ross or Michelle Obama wear something very, very, similar to that dress/gown

R6, your lives are so empty that you watch a show you don't like week after week?

The Booklyn Museum presented The Opulent Era: Fashions of Worth, Doucet and Pingat in their 1989/1990 season, drawn largely from their own collections and major lenders. It was a stunning once in a lifetime exhibition. There are catalog shots as well as exhibition photos at the link. Eventually, TBM’s costume collections were absorbed entirely into the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s Costume Institute.

This is a more recent brief essay on Worth done by the Met.

Hers a link to the Met collections database for House of Worth.

The show you don't like troll really would benefit from a mass block. I hate to hall monitor but it isn't even an interesting obsessive.

[quote]Let’s hope Celia convinces Uncle Julian to hire her brother AKB to play the Russell’s wayward carriage house stable boy who is fucked “Looking” style by creepy next door neighbor Oscar in one of the horse stalls.

He actually will play the Russell mansion house elf Dibby, forced to wear a pillowcase and perform menial tasks until George Russell gives him clothes.

[quote] The audience found by “The Gilded Age” is not one advertisers or TV execs want. They are OLD. They are over 55, just about all of them.

Roger Friedman is himself 65, by the way.

he's a cunt

R33, you forgot his mustache!

You're right, I did, R33. I am perilously close to Roger Friedman's undesirables.

It would be amazing if they really tied up some of these silly plotlines and got rid of those actors we all hate. Well.....hate-watch, anyway.

I am pretty certain they will never get rid of Marian nor Oscar, no matter how much Dataloungers hate them. They are too central to the idea of the show as it has been conceived.

But I would be happy to do away with many of the servants, particularly the ones who seem mentally challenged, like Mrs. Bauer or Bridget, or who go into raptures when its time to serve the wealthy, like Adelheid, who might as well be speak-singing the servants' parts for "I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here" to Gladys ("Soap? No, bubbles I think!")

My guess is that this is the last season for the handsome but uncompelling Tom Raikes and the bitter Mrs. Morris (the suicide's widow), since they are not central to the show and their subplots either are about to end (in Tom's case) or have already ended (Mrs. Morris).

I am convinced next episode will see the end of the Marian-Tom romance and the subplot of Bertha's attempts to make it into society.

Downton Abbey seemed to survive just fine after Matthew Crawley, Sybil and O'Brien died or moved away.

Roger Friedman is ugly.

r56, I think Downton could have done without all the characters except Lord Grantham and Lady Mary, because that's the way that show was set up. They were the two central characters.

This show was basically set up with Marian as the central character, so (unfortunately) she would be the hardest one to lose--though it is not impossible. The other two hardest characters to lose would be George and Bertha.

Oscar could go, but that would lessen Agnes's interest in the outside world. She would probably never leave her divan ever.

Well, Marian is and she isn't. I argue there's barely a bridge between what's been positioned as the two main families. If you want Agnes as a proxy for old New York and Bertha as a proxy for the new, they have to do better than one twitching her curtains and the other sauntering around like she DGaF, which she probably doesn't as long as some old goat from old New York provides her entree. It is a weirdly structured show when the two main female leads have nothing to do with each other. And Streepling barely looks in. If he wanted - he won't - he could write out anybody. If Bertha needs a rival, Mrs. Astor seems the better bet. Agnes seems to be rooted to her settee.

I agree with everyone thinking next season is about Bertha's plotting Gladys' future and the Streepling finding new love after Raikes. It may be as simple as he jilts her. A Streepling/Larry pairing would be thick with comic opportunities as the two families are thrown together for dinners and receptions in the run up to the society wedding of the decade.

No, I love Oscar don't let him go!

I hope Raikes and Marian are struck down by a cholera epidemic or something

People died more frequently and younger back then. They have plenty of opportunities to kill people off. Downton obviously had no issues doing it.

[quote]I am pretty certain they will never get rid of Marian nor Oscar, no matter how much Dataloungers hate them.

In all honesty, I'm fairly certain no one will ever do anything, no matter how much Dataloungers may want it.

The best option would be to recast Marian without explanation.

That's what Paramount told me about Sunset.

I’m used to Marian at this point and I found the actress did well in the latest episode. She’s a central figure in the show and is not going to be shuttled off or recast.

It will be interesting to see where Peggy’s storyline goes. I think someone is definitely not telling the whole story here.

Armstrong is a total cunt. Are you going to see her old mother again?

I'm hoping Douglas Sills is being padded to play the chef, otherwise he's really been pigging out during the pandemic.

^ I gained weight for the role, bitch!

Too bad Marian can’t go work on her father’s offshore oil rig and be involved in an explosion and come back with a new face, played by a new actor.

[quote] The other two hardest characters to lose would be George and Bertha.

I don't know. I think at least one is expendable as murder victim in a whodunit. Lots of suspects in the show.

R68, I'm available!

R69, I was thinking we might be due for a who shot George? after he came down like a ton of bricks on his ton of stenographer. You've got her, you've got the Widow Morris, you've got O'Brien of New York.... It would be awful but stranger stupid plot twists have happened.

nope, he's a stud, like teddy roosevelt his gold cigar case or what ever will bounce the fucking bullets off of him

I get the stenographer was in cahoots with the witness, but the details went right through my ears. What exactly did they do? What was in it for them?

Honestly, the only actor not expendable on DA was and still is Maggie Smith. Any of the others could have been killed off and not missed.

I saw Denee Benton in "Natasha, Pierre" near the end of the run, and she was walking through the role. Bored out of her mind, and she bored me as well. She also literally SIMPERED (Mary!) onstage when her character was introduced. Did she think she was Scarlett O'Hara or something? It was awful. After the show, I was waiting with a friend for the music director to come out. (My friend knew him) Ms. Benton came out of the stage door and walked to a waiting car. While she was walking, someone from the theater crew who had been with her come over to us and said that Ms. Benton would NOT be signing autographs. Huh?! We weren't waiting for her. It was bizarre, I felt like that old Lily Tomlin skit...... When I see her on this show now, that's all that I can think about- her snobby attitude. I don't think she's that good that she afford to be such a little diva.

My question is who directed Nathan Lane to speak that way? His character could be really fun but he speaks with such affection is more annoying than anything else.

R75, I found her pretty tedious on the podcast. She takes herself and her craft verrrrrrry seriously. A real contrast from Coon, who was an informal hoot.

There have been no scenes between the characters of Peggy Scott and Bertha Russell and I don't think there will ever be any.

[quote] While she was walking, someone from the theater crew who had been with her come over to us and said that Ms. Benton would NOT be signing autographs. Huh?! We weren't waiting for her. It was bizarre,

I would have made it a point to wait outside of the theater another night that week, and when the same guy walked out to tell her that, I would have shouted loudly enough so she could hear, "DENÉE BENTON?! ARE YOU CRAZY? WE"RE WAITING FOR AUTOGRAPHS FROM AN ACTUAL **FAMOUS** PERSON LIKE JOSH GROBAN, NOT FROM SOME NOBODY!"

[quote] There have been no scenes between the characters of Peggy Scott and Bertha Russell and I don't think there will ever be any.

Next season they will both meet up at the Manhattan YWCA to explore the Love That Dares Not Speak Its Name.

"Oh, Peggy!"

"Oh Bertha! Our love is doubly taboo!"

Taking notes!

[quote] My question is who directed Nathan Lane to speak that way?

[quote]his gold cigar case or what ever

Ahem. I believe it was established in a previous thread that the gifts in Bertha Russell's linen napkins were anus scrapers.

And I managed to swipe one r83. Compensation!

I’m warming up to Carrie Coon in this role and I had a lot of problems with her in the beginning. It’s like, this episode something finally clicked.

Mamie Fish was a wonderful foil for Bertha in the Newport scenes. Also, really enjoying Kelli O’Hara in this and I usually find her quite bland (on-stage which is the only place I had previously seen her).

I agree about Kelli O'Hara, r85, but I can't really figure out why she's coming off so well in TGA. She hasn't really been given much in the way of interesting or provocative dialogue. I think she just looks quite charming and sympathetic in the period costuming, of which she's been given some of the best.

I think a) she crosses a lot of plots and in her small ways actually does things that move the action and b) she's got layers. Bertha is one note, played on a tuba. Agnes is almost one note. Ada has no notes. Streeplet is flat and off tempo. Fane connects more parts than most characters in a show that's really three or four shows within it.

And ya'll thought I was wrong yesterday calling all the stoopid,old posters out! I have data now!

[quote] I don't know. I think at least one is expendable as murder victim in a whodunit. Lots of suspects in the show.

It wouldn't be George, because then the titles sequence (with the locomotive rushing through the valley between railway stocks) would make no sense... unless Larry inherited the railroad corporation, which would also make no sense since he's such a wuss.

I thought the steam engine was just a visual metaphor for Bertha.

Kelli was horrendous in 13 Reasons Why playing a children of suicide parent advocate, it was like she was in a different TV series all together. But she’s been the most consistent actor here, seems based in the period and acting beautifully.

If someone gets murdered it should be that bitch, Armstrong

I wouldn't miss her. Or her pie.

they're not going to kill off George or Bertha.

But I could easily imagine there being an assassination attempt against George, just as there was against the Gilded Age industrialist Henry Clay Frick in 1892.

But George wouldn't need an anarchist to attempt to assassinate him. Already both Mrs. Morris and Miss Ainsley have more than good enough reasons to try to kill him.

Sorry, whenever I hear the name "Bertha" I think of this

Add Turner to your list of assassins, r94.

Bertha Butt Bougie keeps me coming back...love that voice.

Yeah, well, try hearing it every damn night r97!

Maybe Nathan's mother was frightened by a fried chicken when she was pregnant.

I agree that Coon is really starting to click as Bertha, but even at her worst, she’s better than Amanda Peet, who was originally cast.

[quote] Maybe Nathan's mother was frightened by a fried chicken when she was pregnant.

More like a Virginia ham!

A tribute to Harvey Firestein. Loved Virginia Hamm.

Nice of them to remember the absolute holocaust of the Peshtigo Fire, would've been better if they'd learned how to pronounce it. I read a book on it as a kid and still have nightmares about it. There is a really good museum there

Am I the only one who wants a scene where John Adams rims Mr. Raikes behind the boat house at Beechwood? I mean tongue punchs him in the fart box something savage.....

The Peshtigo Fire story was so stupid.

Poor servant class immigrants in 1880s New York didn't just decide "hey! I'm gonna go on a thousand mile trip and visit my relatives in the middle of the Wisconsin woods!"

But, apparently they were well off servant class immigrants who can afford long vacations and empty cemetery plots.

[quote]I saw Denee Benton in "Natasha, Pierre" near the end of the run, and she was walking through the role. Bored out of her mind, and she bored me as well.

For me, there have been only a few acting performers that have been notable so far. While I'm sure that is primarily due to the writing, well... Anyway, Morgan Spector, the woman who plays Mrs. Fane, and the woman who plays Mrs. Fish are those who I feel are "acting" while the others are still looking for their footing. I actually chuckled a little during the truth-telling session scene between Peggy and Marian. IMHO, it was just so poorly done. All of the melodrama (and that's the writing) made it lean towards camp and the actor's performances came across as borderline camp. Just awful, IMHO

I’m crying as I type this

The FINALE: It’s the ball of the season and Mrs Astor will be attending! Everyone (especially Larry who is getting rimmed by Mr Raikes in the bathroom) is having a great time! Suddenly shots are heard, there is an active shooter in the house! We see Marian getting her head blown off while everyone tries to hide behind Mrs Fish. Who will live? Who will die? And who is the shooter?

[quote]while everyone tries to hide behind Mrs Fish.

So LOL.

Will Bertha be injured while wrestling the shooter to the ground? Because nothing is going to stop her climb of Mount Astor. NOTHING! NOT NOW WHEN SHE'S SO CLOSE (take a drink.)

At this rate, season two will end with Gladys’ full on Moldavian wedding.

With the Moldavians led by Agnes.

[BOLD]NO DYNASTY REFERENCES ALLOWED EVER!!!!!!!!!![/BOLD]

^Nor "Mommie Dearest" references.

r113 = Gladys

Finish this sentence: If Julian Fellowes tried harder he'd....

If Julian Fellowes tried harder he'd write a scene in next week's episode where George finds Bertha's retreat through the kitchen laugh out loud funny and privately, in a kindly, teasing way, coerces her into a grin of her own at the absurdity of the whole damn hunt, while respecting she won't stop until she's got the fox.

Denee Benton is talented but I'm just not invested in Peggy. She doesn't really have a personality beyond being saintly.

A lot clicked into place for me when I realised Marian was played by Meryl Streep's daughter. Until then, I couldn't understand why such a bland actress had been given the lead role.

I think Marian is more of a Mary Sue than Peggy

R105--definitely. Plus, there were probably numerous tragedies in the tri-state area back in the 1870s.

[quote]At this rate, season two will end with Gladys’ full on Moldavian wedding.

Worth it, if she nabs a Prince!

Or it just could have been a fire in New York. Fellowes Googles some interesting shit but he's got funny ideas about what's important or interesting.

They should have brought Mrs.Fish in regularly to volley with Bertha. Coon's performance really livened up during their interactions.

[quote]Coon's performance really livened up during their interactions.

All I have seen thus far is a sub par performance in imitating Alexis Carrington.

From Harpers Bazaar

We're Getting a Second Season of The Gilded Age The creators have already hinted at what may come next.

BY QUINCI LEGARDYE FEB 13 2022, 4:57 PM EST

WATCH: Everything to Know About “The Gilded Age”

Julian Fellowes' long-awaited drama The Gilded Age finally premiered on HBO last month, and it has already taken over our Monday nights. The opulent show, set in the 19th-century, stars Christine Baranski and Carrie Coon as the leaders of NYC's upper class, set against each other in a struggle of old versus new New York. It also follows the people who work within the aristocrats' sphere, such as Denée Benton's secretary and aspiring writer, Peggy Scott.

Three episodes in, the show has already garnered an audience of 3.4 million viewers across all platforms, outpacing HBO's last hit drama The White Lotus, per Deadline. As the premiere season approaches its halfway point, fans are already asking whether the period drama will get a second season.

Though HBO has not given any word about a renewal yet, the show's creative team already has plans for how the show can move forward. Executive producer Gareth Neame told RadioTimes.com that they're "already underway with ideas for the second season."

"The truth is, we're always getting the second season ready long before we know whether it goes ahead or not. Because, you know, the moment we know we're going ahead, we have to start – the cameras have to start rolling. So you sort of have to prepare," Neame explained.

In an interview with Town and Country, star Christine Baranski, who plays stern matron Agnes van Rhijn, said that she's also hoping for a long run.

"We're all hoping that it goes on. If it doesn't, it's a hell of a wonderful 10 episodes. It ends in a kind of wonderful way and we'll see. But I could definitely, happily continue with this show and with these actors, and with this particular marvelous writer, Julian," she said, noting that she may have to fit the show into her packed schedule, even filming at the same time as The Good Fight.

The Gilded Age's first season continues throughout the spring, with the final episode set to air on March 21.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but Bertha's costumes look a bit off because Carrie Coon was pregnant during shooting.

Also the Russells resemble Anderson Cooper's description of his Vanderbilt relatives during that period. Bertha seems tobe based on Alva.

I wonder if the coming out party she is planning is based on Alva's costume party. The quadrille rehearsals appear in Cooper's description of the party in his book.

[quote] I think Marian is more of a Mary Sue than Peggy

I'd say Marian's casual racism (era-appropriate though it was) disqualifies her as a Mary Sue. She's pretty close to being one, though.

r1125, so you are NOT headless?

I wonder if the actors are contractually obligated to use some variation of "the wonderful wrier Julian Fellowes"?

Oscar is like the creepy sweaty guy that shows up to your sex party and hogs all the meth.

I've seen some photos on FB of the Quadrille dancers (posted by one of the dancers) in costume and the young men, at least, are not in costumes like the Vanderbilt masquerade, simply in period suits.

Those of you who think Carrie Coon has "improved" have merely become accustomed to her monotonous delivery.

How old is Oscar suppose to be? The actor playing Oscar looks 50 yo.

The actor playing Mrs. Fish is beyond fantastic! She's one reasons to watch!

meth

R117: Peggy's storyline is kind of stupid and misses opportunities to make her more interesting---but you could say that about 90% of the stories on this how. I like that she's providing a view of a segment of society that's entirely missing from popular culture---the Black bourgeoise of the past. Once in a great while we might get the "Our Crowd" Jews or the Lace Curtain Irish, but even they are usually missing, too.

[quote]The actor playing Mrs. Fish is beyond fantastic! She's one reasons to watch!

I think she (Ashlie Atkinson) also plays Carrie Bradshaw's editor on And Just Like That

R131, she's a really good actress. You are in the minority

I need to see Agnes leave the house. She's a major character, with some great dialogue and shade throwing. But have her DO something.

Mrs. Fish was fun because she was salty with everyone. People in high society loved it when she spoke rudely to them:

[quote] Grandees attending her dinner parties would be greeted with the occasional insult, "Make yourself perfectly at home, and believe me, there is no one who wishes you there more heartily than I do." One man was greeted with "Oh, how do you do! I had quite forgotten I asked you!"

However, her tart tongue meant that though people thought she was fun, she could never be the kind of society leader Mrs. Astor (who kept a grave and polite demeanor) was. Society women were amused by Mrs. Fish, but they longed to be like Mrs. Astor.

Are they going to do anything with the Jean Tripplehorn character or is she just there to inform us that people can be jettisoned from "society" or the community - like that cheating whore friend of Francesca's in Bridges of Madison County?

R125 why don’t you read the thread. It’s not helpful if you just chime in and dump your thoughts. See if you can contribute more constructively.

We need more man butts......well ONE would be more than we've gotten so far.

Wow, R141.

Interesting!

[quote] [R125] why don’t you read the thread. It’s not helpful if you just chime in and dump your thoughts. See if you can contribute more constructively.

Perhaps because it’s over 3,700 posts long. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

Somebody thinks she's Mrs. Astor.

She ain't.

Coon's needs stop speaking/acting out her chin in this role.

She's good in other roles but this one IMO is over baked.

The problem with the criticism is in these threads is that it’s the exact same line over and over and over. Non stop. The exact same criticism is posted from episode to episode and from thread to thread.

The point has been made. It went from supposed authentic criticism to a obvious smear campaign hellbent on ruining the experience for others.

A genuine critical point is made and then moved on from. It’s not hammered over and over as an anthem to accompany new post.

R148 - Welcome to DL!

r141/r148, you need a nap, hon.

fraus and elder over-vaxxed gays with Covid dementia.

i knew they were stoopid.

fraus and elder over-vaxxed gays with Covid dementia.

i knew they were stoopid.

Over-vaxxed? LOL. Are you a Republican?

No, but not a lemming. Go for your forth.

These vaccines were approved under tRump's watch, and I'll just leave that there.

People who call other people "lemmings" are the ones who believe everything they hear on Fox News

whatever floats your boat.

The problem with the criticism of the criticism inthese threads is that it’s the exact same line over and over and over. Non stop. The exact same criticism of the criticism is posted from episode to episode and from thread to thread.

The point has been made. It went from supposed authentic criticism of the criticism to a obvious smear campaign hellbent on ruining the experience for others.

A genuine critical point about the criticism is made and then moved on from. It’s not hammered over and over as an anthem to accompany new post.

Oh, God, R148 also R141? Holy India Wilkes!

That's the fraus and demented-elders.

Same on the Warhol threads. And WSS threads.

Repeating the same thing and asking about things easily looked up online.

The criticism here is repetitious because the flaws in the series are repetitious.

But I make sure to turn in every single week to watch those repetitive flaws! I never miss an episode!

Get some new criticism. Or rest your case already.

r148: unclench.

r137 Half the posts on these 7 threads are about Carrie Coon's monotonous, flat voiced performance with many people pointing out they've liked her in other roles, but not so much here.

R148 You make it sound like it's one or two people monopolizing the "This show has problems" comments. That's not accurate at all. Again, the majority of comments on these 7 threads are "ohmigod, this show has shitty writing!" Because it does.

I know all you crazy uber fans get your tails in a kerfluffle because not everyone shares your joy but...this show is an uneven mess. A fun uneven mess, at times, but still... a mess.

I just started watching it. I'm on episode four, I think.

Overall impression: It got off to a slow start and was an odd combination of daytime soap-level melodrama and boring period story.

It's gotten more entertaining but it still honestly doesn't seem much more thoughtful than, say, Melrose Place. I'm kind of surprised HBO bought the story because it's not very well written. Actually, the old TV series Homefront comes to mind, too. That aired when I was a kid and I liked it because it was entertaining and didn't make history boring, but even to me as a kid it felt a little naive. I could feel how romanticized the WWII era was.

The clothes are absolutely beautiful and I do love the style of the era depicted in the show. I honestly wish it could come back, but the clothes are obviously too fussy for today and people are too portly.

One thing that irks me throughout is the inattention to language. The characters say things like "let's regroup later" and "she's playing the long game" in the sense of contemporary business jargon and I feel certian such things were not said 100+ years ago. It works to mix in modern slang in shows like The Great because it is done so consistently and for comic effect, but here it just seems careless.

Someone joked in an And Just Like That... thread that "Cynthia Nixon's gray teeth actually make sense in The Gilded Age," and it's true. Her character is so dopey, though, and every time she says something non-idiotic, her niece throws out a little insulting barb. I feel a little sad for her. Is she supposed to be mildly limited?

R165 please. There is no way different people are writing the same exact, word for word criticism with no deviation from post to post. It’s copy and paste.

I don’t know how many posters you think are on DL. But that’s all the same poster writing the same thing over and over.

R166 all those points have already been repeated enough. I do believe the point has been made. it’s just beating a dead horse unless you have anything new to add.

R168 I am only halfway through. I just started watching episodes last weekend. I haven't read the threads because I don't want the spoilers. Glad to know I am not alone in my reactions. If posting my first impressions so far along in the series bothers you, then you have the option of blocking my comments. :) Have a nice Friday.

The show simply has recurring problems. Court room drama is a staple of soaps, esp. murder trials, yet the the George Russell trial doesn't amount to much---they didn't need to make it as tiresome and drawn out as a classic soap trial, but they could have done more with it. Instead he uses the old surprise evidence/witness device. Subplots about mysterious babies (and often mysterious parentage) are another, but again it was over and done poorly. The period doesn't lend itself to some tropes like alien abduction, but I'm sure they could do amnesia and evil twins, but Uncle Julian will find some way to use them up in 5 minutes with out any innovation. Part of the entertainment, much like the later years of Downton comes in watching his ineptitude while getting glimmers of some real entertainment like Violets wisecracks or Mary throwing shade at Edith.

R138, let’s have her go to a Zumba class!

[quote][R166] all those points have already been repeated enough. I do believe the point has been made. it’s just beating a dead horse unless you have anything new to add.

I understand your point of view, R168. But, instead of distressing over it why not just skip over those postings and not read them? I too wish (and hope) that the conversations can become more diverse. I'd love to read various DLr's experiences and knowledge of Newport, the architecture, the art, costume design, society, etc. However, the threads are developing as they are and those who are more concerned about the acting performances are dominating. Oh, well... I just read those that I want to and skip over others. It's just that simple.

But, there is a very legitimate point (IMHO) that some poster has noted; Posters at least give all of us the courtesy of reading most of the thread that you might be tempted to post on. You don't have to read all 7 or 8 threads but just a good portion of the current thread that you are reading. The issue/conversation might have already been addressed several times

I like the show. Fluff, but entertaining fluff.

Rejoice!

In a couple of weeks the Finale Episode will have been seen by all who wish to see it, commented upon and criticized, and TGA won't see another DL thread for a year or so.

Why so few episodes? All that money spent and they couldn’t make more content? Every episode I feel is too short and is missing details,

couple of weeks?

My problem with it is that the Russells aren't likable. The kids are but the parents

I like Mr. Russell quite a lot.

You expect an American Robber Baron and his ruthless, social climbing wife should be as likable as the hapless Granthams? Do tell.

No, but I do expect the characters to have depth and dimension and nuance. They seem very one dimensional. Tom Barrow the Gay butler on Downton was not often likable but he had depth. It's Julian. He seems not to "get" the Americans, and they're cardboard cut outs to him. There's no one to root for except the two young women in the Van Rijn household. And Gladys and her cute brother. And I honestly can't get too excited. Jean Tripplehorn's character looks promising. But I agree with Christine Baranski. Mr. Raikes is not to be trusted. Oscar looks slimy in every way.

you expect too much apparently

Boy, hit block and a lot of the most boring complaining evaporates... in a cloud of irony.

Commanded as we are to dwell under this new Nirvana and Unicorn convention, can I just clarify would be we allowed to complain about something we've complained about before [italic]if[/italic] we use the word "still". The writing is still a disappointment. The Streeplet still seems like Glenn Close's child, not Streep's. We still haven't seen any bums. I await instruction and remain, as ever, Madam R168 et al and plenty, your humble vassal.

You prisspots complaining about this show could teach Aunt Agnes a thing or two about being bitchy.

That's the whole point. Is it tough being a genius?

R184, and believe me, I know how to bitch!

[quote]Why so few episodes?

HBO series tend to run about 8-10 episodes long.

they were tired.

I blocked the boring bitch whining about people being boring about bitching about the show, and half the thread disappeared...go figure!

you next, cunt!

I have a new theory....it's based on that exchange between Agnes and Ada and Agnes bitterly remarking she knows about losing babies.

I think maybe Agnes couldn't carry a child to term. and, Ada is actually the mother of sneaky gay Oscar. Either voluntarily or because the creepy Mr. van Rijn was rapey.

It's ridiculous, but Uncle Julian does enjoy a ridiculous storyline.

I think I've read most of these threads and I don't think I saw this question - sorry if I missed it.

Who in the Gilded Era had "lady's maids"... were they really that common? Were they just imitating European aristocrats? Was it a mark of status, position, resources? I ask this because Agnes has a maid she can't let go because she's so valuable... but poor Ada has to dress herself etc

would you not like a man servant to sick the shower douche in your bum?

Actually, the van Rhijn household is considerably lacking in servants, considering Agnes' wealth and social prominence. There should be at least one more female servant who would deal with the toilette, laundry, wardrobes and hair of Ada and Marian, and another man who would tend to their carriages, horses and.....well, garbage.

I think they did, because dressing for American ladies and British ladies was complicated, and also it was in many other ways convenient to have a ladies maid. I don't think Americans and Brits (and French and Spanish for that matter) were all that different that way.

But I must admit, I wonder too, where the hell is Ada's maid?

I suppose Julian would say that Agnes has daily help that comes in every day but doesn't live with them. But why are they never there having luncheon with the other servants?

Well Julian would be full of shit, then, r196. That is not how it worked in grand households.

Maybe spinsters don't get maids.

Can you imagine the amount of laundry that would have to washed, dried and pressed everyday with Agnes, Ada and Marian living there together? All by hand. of course, no electricity yet. Just the petticoats, camisoles and bustles alone!

True, r199, I'm pretty sure they would have a laundress who pretty much did nothing else. I can't remember, was there a laundress in Downton Abbey, or am I thinking of some other show? I'm thinking there was some scheming laundress, but may be mixing that up completely with another show from the same era.

R199 may be interested in this video.

Marian's maid has to wash her menstrual clothes!🤮

I was reading an article on the clothing, and back then they changed 4 times a day.

R154 - “ No, but not a lemming. Go for your forth”

It’s “fourth”, if you don’t mind.

Their shirts, yes

Laundresses probably came in during the day, since clothing often was put out to dry (weather permitting). They wouldn't have had much interaction with the owners of the house and possibly not with the other members of the staff---so no great story lines for them. Yes, they'd know about the spilled gravy, menstrual cycles, nocturnal emissions, etc. but there's only so much story material there. In the city, laundry services probably began to spring up because townhouses would have fewer discreet places to dry clothing outdoors and finery would need specialized care. Seamstresses probably were day workers, too, or people who came in as needed.

[quote]I think they did, because dressing for American ladies and British ladies was complicated, and also it was in many other ways convenient to have a ladies maid.

I agree. But, imagine the complications that poor women had to endure when dressing themselves. Someone had to help to get all of that cloth and bustles, etc on. THANK GOD, for Coco Chanel!

I remember reading about Downton how the laundry ladies were the only staff who didn't live in before the times changes (as Mrs. Hughes could be relied upon to point out.) Usually at the big statelies the laundry was an out building, separate from the house.

Sort of weird to me that Oscar is being mentioned by other characters as a possible match for Gladys, as he seems to be old enough to be her father. I guess that didn’t matter back then.

Who did the laundry on Dynasty?

^Lee Bergere did the laundry. I mean, the actor…not the character.

I am sure he did the laundry much better on Dynasty than it is being done on the Gilded Age.

YET ANOTHER FAILING IN CONSTRAST!

I’ve read that Boston ladies would pack their Worth gowns away for a season or two so they wouldn’t be mistaken for a demimondaine. Boston gents would hang their new suits in he garden for an evening or two so they wouldn’t look bandbox new.

Maybe Marion is Agnes' daughter.

Why is Agnes totally accepting of a black woman and even hiring her without references and totally against Bertha who only wants to maintain the same standards as Agnes?

Louise Jacobson had an acting moment that reminded me of her mother. The moment in Mrs Carpenter’s house where Raikes walks away and she turned away and smiled to herself.

At certain angles you can see the nose.

Yup just like her mother - she was pleased with her own line reading.

You have to admit that the exchange about Bannister’s mohammadean lawyer was very funny!

R215 in the first(?) episode, I think, Peggy told Mrs. van Rijn that she was a graduate of a training school that the Brooks family supported and championed. That's the reason. Agnes admires someone who takes on the world -- as long as it isn't to get into the same boat as the "old people". I dare say that Agnes sees a bit of a go-getter to be admired in Peggy. Within reason, of course.

Peggy is also no threat to the way Agnes lives in and perceives the world. Bertha and her family are.

I can't get over the horrible line reading and high school play level of acting between Zuzanna Szadkowski (Mr. Russel's assistant) and Morgan Spector (George Russell). Was simply horrible. Every episode has someone delivering flat as paper line readings. How the hell is this mediocrity (talking about the acting) allowed on an HBO show? I know Zuzanna Szadkowski as Blair Waldorf's maid. I was happy to see her get this minor gig. But after Monday's episode and her limited range, I'm happy she was shown the door. I have had many issues with Morgan Spector's stilted delivery. The court room was the worst. Just felt off considering the stakes. When he said he'd have his people follow her to all her jobs, I rolled my eyes at how off his threat sounded due to delivery.

The rest of the episode was enjoyable, especially the Newport scenes. Carrie Coon and Kelli O'Hara continue to be my absolutely favorite characters. Cynthia Nixon and Dorthy Scott continue to be nice little treats to their scenes as well. I completely forget about Nixon as her SATC character, so she's really surprised me. But I have ONLY seen her in SATC so I'm not familiar with Nixon's range.

R222, curious if you saw The Plot Against America and what you thought of Morgan Spector in that. I thought he was pretty damn underwhelming in that one, too, although he certainly is hot looking.

[QUOTE] Mrs Carpenter’s house

It’s Mrs. Chamberlin.

[quote] The point has been made. It went from supposed authentic criticism to a obvious smear campaign hellbent on ruining the experience for others.

[cackle] so, I see you’ve discovered our little game.

Thanks for reading. 😉

^LOL. If the mistakes in the show are the same week after week what else are we supposed to talk about, eh? How wonderful it is? Are there mashups yet to swoon over? Gladcar. Oscjohn. Berthastor? Larfish?

Tom Cotton as Bettie Page

r223 yes I watched the tedious show during the pandemic sometime in 2020. It certainly felt relevant-ish, but yes his character was too smug in that show. I also didn't feel the connection or love he was supposed to have for his family. I may need to watch highlights again (can't go through that slow burn). The women knocked it out of the park on that show. I guess I should include that sad little nerd that moved to Kentucky.

I actually couldn't remember he was in that show. Morgan Spector always feels like a cheap mans's Oscar Isaac.

Speaking of r224, I love this outfit on that hussy, Mrs. Chamberlain.

Another reason I love Aurora Fane is that she not only married an equal (money and status) she married a stone cold hottie. I swear if my husband looked like Charles Fane in the 19th century, I'd be that bitch with 15 kids, cause we would not stop fucking. The actor is almost too good looking for the role because he would be the center of attention in a room for of average looking wealthy folks.

Henry Cavill as Cyndi Lauper

Chamberlain has the worst hairstyle though. From the front she looks like Carol Brady's great grandma.

I think it fits her face nicely. I may have to see it from the side. I actually hate when shows use modern hairstyles on period pieces.

The costumes are by far the best part of the show.

Why not Berthallister r226? What? Why am I getting those looks?

I prefer the sets. Those dresses are ugly.

R228, thanks for responding, I like the way you think. You nailed IMO re Spector on TPAA. I did thnk Zoe Kazan gave the best performance in that by far. And yes, the nerdy kid who went down to Kentucky was sort of heartbreaking. I certainly cared more about him than I did for Spector’s hothead character.

Since these characters seem to be broad caricatures, I think their costumes should reflect that and maybe they should come with their own color scheme.

Bertha's peacock dress was spectacular and rather defined her in my mind. So seeing her in Newport wearing a white dress and white hat with red accents looked wrong to me, it just didn't flatter her at a time in the story when she cares so much about making an impression on everyone around her.

Peggy always seems to be dressed in brown or dark plaid and her costumes always look the best to me.

Marian looks best in yellow and light blue.

Both Agnes and Ada have been dressed in some odd choices, with strangely contrasting colors, garish patterns, or silly pleats. They win the contest for worst dressed, in my opinion.

r221, the show is set in 1882. Reconstruction ran 1865-1877.

17 years after the war, it is hard that fervor dissipated after so many dead.

Most of the Protestant Old-Money were Abolitionists.

Agnes is a good woman walking the good walk with Peggy.

They never show these people going to church. Wasn’t that an important part of their lives?

Yeah, it is good to remember just how close they were to the Civil War r239. I still think there was undoubtedly a whole lot of racism in the New York upper classes. But along with that, there probably was some feeling that we should "help the good ones" to make something of themselves, since we liberated so many from slavery.

And I agree with you too r240. Religion might be a background thing for a lot of them, OF COURSE we're all Protestants and believe in the Resurrection, but the occasional pastor visiting or going to church would of course be part of their lives. Though on the other side, spiritualism was also really catching on in a big way in that era, and fashionable ladies having seances and getting all caught up in that might well be part of the scene.

I would love it if one of the characters got caught up in spiritualism and there was a scene with a seance and then of course the medium would get exposed as a fraud. What fun that would be.

I would love if the characters got caught up in anything. But I'd really like the episode previews to leave a little to the imagination. I know there isn't a ton of content to work with in any of these episodes, but do they really have to show basically everything of importance in the previews?

Morgan Spector survives only because of his Personal Trainer, the Costume Designer, and the Tailor/Seamstress...

[quote]Why is Agnes totally accepting of a black woman and even hiring her without references and totally against Bertha who only wants to maintain the same standards as Agnes?

Actually, it really isn't odd. Peggy is educated and she makes use of that education by having a career. That is unlike the many women of that era. Rarely could a woman do well simply by their own merit. They typically had to marry well and put up with a ton of shit.

Even thought the last thing this show needs is more servant characters, the van Rijn/Brook household is a bit understaffed.

Even as a pathetic spinster, Ada should either have a ladies maid or at the very least, an upstairs maid who would assist her.

This household apparently only has ONE maid who mostly seems to be a kitchen maid. A household this size would have at least two more maids, a parlor maid for downstairs and a chamber maid for upstairs.

But, they might not have a coach and horses. It was very expensive and a pain in the ass to have your own even for the rich. And, since the household is just 3 women, two of them middle aged who seldom leave the house, it really wouldn't make much sense. Agnes has money but she's not insanely rich and she seems to be frugal with her money.

And, as for laundry, they would have either come in weekly for that and/or the bed/bath/kitchen/dining linen were sent out to be laundered.

Fun (and quick) read

Such strong and powerful legs which means a shapely and powerful gluteus maximus...

R247, I agree with him that Harry Richardson is a dreamboat.

[quote]Yeah, it is good to remember just how close they were to the Civil War [R239]. I still think there was undoubtedly a whole lot of racism in the New York upper classes. But along with that, there probably was some feeling that we should "help the good ones" to make something of themselves, since we liberated so many from slavery.

Speaking generally, we have to leave this thought process that ALL whites supported slavery, racism, and whatever else. Just like today, and going as far back as whenever, there are many whites (and others) that are against racism, bigotry, etc. However, just like then and even today, it takes courage to speak up and step to forefront. Therefore, you will have those that will only do actions of which they are comfortable with. Now, that could be an issue for debate regarding if, or if not, that is the type of attitude that people should have. But, bottom line it's a reality. I mean even Margaret Mitchell of "Gone With The Wind" contributed very heavily to Morehouse College to train Black doctors. The school still receives money from her estate for this mission. Should she have done more and been more vocal and visible? That's a debate. But, at least she (along with many others) did something.

I'm really enjoying the research done here

I adore comments like r246 who add in some historical facts. Thank you!!!

I think Morgan wants to fuck the actor playing his son, lol. From r247's link.

"Here's Harry Richardson, who plays my character's son, Larry. He’s a dreamboat. This was the second time we went to Newport, it was the spring and it was gorgeous. We were looking out over the ocean, waiting for our next shot. Some days your workplace is more beautiful than others."

If you follow their Instagrams, Larry and Raikes and Jack the Footman are all palsy walsy with each other.

I'm following them, they are fun

[quote] Bertha's peacock dress was spectacular and rather defined her in my mind. So seeing her in Newport wearing a white dress and white hat with red accents looked wrong to me, it just didn't flatter her at a time in the story when she cares so much about making an impression on everyone around her.

Bertha's got Aurora Fane and Ward McAllister advising her now, and they would be telling her not to dress too gaudy for Newport. A mistake of hers had often been that she dresses too finely and showily for non-evening occasions, and she should only be wearing things like the peacock gown for fancy balls or the opera.

On a more practical level, Carrie Coon was very advanced in her pregnancy when she filmed the Newport scenes, and they did not want to draw attention to her body.

[quote] Both Agnes and Ada have been dressed in some odd choices, with strangely contrasting colors, garish patterns, or silly pleats. They win the contest for worst dressed, in my opinion.

They are not supposed to look fashionable--they represent the old Knickerbocker rich women, so they are intentionally supposedly to look dowdy. Their dresses are supposed to look fussy and expensive, but unflattering: remember they are supposedly to be older women, and Agnes is a widow and the mother of a man in his thirties, and Ada is a spinster in late middle age. They are not supposed to be anywhere near so flashily dressed as Bertha (who is New Money) or even as Aurora or Mrs. Astor (who are both Old Knickerbocker Money but who are trying to lead the fashions).

R257, thank you for your response to my comment. Do you work on the show? Have an interest in historical fashion? I appreciate your knowledge. (How do you know so much?)

r258, you're welcome, and thanks for the appreciation. I have an interest in the Gilded Age--not necessarily its fashion in particular, but I've just learned enough over the years from being interested in this period (and also in Hollywood movies about this period) that I've picked up a few things about the fashions.

[quote] Agnes is a widow and the mother of a man in his thirties

You're very kind. Blake Ritson is 44 but Oscar looks to be older if you ask me.

I agree that Morgan Spector is not such a great actor. I have now seen him in 3 series, including this, The Plot Against America and The Mist. I wasn't really convinced of his character in any of them. Somehow you want him to be compelling, but he just isn't.

Stray thoughts:

1. I love that people are having respectful discussions and are being kind and complimentary to one another. That rarely happens here.

2. Peggy's is the most interesting storyline to me because it subverts my expectations even when I don't know what to expect. I keep alternating between thinking the depiction is meant to be an allegory for our times and may not be very realistic (as when she was hailing a cab and some wouldn't stop for the 'colored' woman, which still happens today) and watching this smarter-than-most woman make her way against odds with a little help from white people who respect her. I do feel like I am learning at least to think in a more nuanced way about the era but I also do question how fanciful the plot is.

3. I still think one of the things that makes HBO series better than most is that it almost always casts far more ordinary-looking people than beautiful-celebrity people, and that works for this series, as well. If everyone were pretty, it would feel like a runway of costumes.

4. It's still a little light-spirited for me and I hope that the series does gradually gain some kind of gravitas. I feel like the acting in this show is meant to be melodramatic and fluffy, as it was in Titantic. The way most of the people speak alone feels inauthentic (maybe it's not, but it feels that way), as if the characters are speaking like 1930s and '40s movie stars, which sounds 'old timey,' but which was an entirely manufactured entertainment accent. Did Victorian New Yorkers really speak that way? One of the servants speaks with a typical New Yawk accent, and I would think the Van Rijns might have inherited more Dutch-y accents, and it would at least be interesting if Bertha had some faint Irish affectations in her speech. Anyway, the series feels like it's very heavily stylized to feel nostalgic and 'historical,' including a historical-romance approach to melodramatic acting. I was shocked when I looked up Carrie Coon and realized she was the sister in Gone Girl. She's definitely a versatile actress, but in this show she (along with most others) seems really hammy. At the end of the first episode, she tenses up in bed and vows "I will have my revenge on them all!" or something fitting of a Disney villainess character or a telenovela and I laughed.

5. Taissa Farmiga plays Gladys. I didn't recognize her either at first but looked her up because her odd face caught my attention. I think she's doing a pretty good job in the role considering that she is 26 in real life and still seems convincing. I detested her in American Horror Story so many years ago and I'm glad to see that I don't hate her here. Her sister is Vera Farmiga, who I love, and they are the first-generation of an immigrant family from Ukraine, which I appreciate a lot more now. 🇺🇦

[quote]I agree that Morgan Spector is not such a great actor. I have now seen him in 3 series, including this, The Plot Against America and The Mist. I wasn't really convinced of his character in any of them. Somehow you want him to be compelling, but he just isn't.

Well, he got the job some how and for some reason(s). It should be noted that Spector has a notable gay following, and... he knows this too! He reminds me of (and can be thought of as a poor man's version) of Christopher Meloni. Little teases, the both of them?

Like Meloni, Spector has taken a few "gay centric" roles but... in real life he is happily married and with child. Uh-Huh... many levels there. But IMHO, I don't care what one calls and considers themself as, nor how they have chosen to live their life... somewhere in their life timeline they have been to that "well" at least once or twice if for nothing else for the sake/excuse of research.

I was concerned that Spector was going to play George Russell as Snidely Whiplash after the first episode, but he's been okay and better than Carrie Coon.

There were limits to abolitionist's support for civil rights and many would have supported some sort of "send them back to Africa" thing. Many well-off people in NYC had money that was somehow connected to the South. Textiles were among the first things to be industrialized. I wouldn't give rich white Protestants too much credit. As mentioned upthread--Peggy attended a school supported by NYC money and was no threat to her and her social standing. She also probably recognized that it was difficult for a respectable woman to make her way in the world. The consequences for that twit Marian will be different because she has a safety net Peggy doesn't have and also really has farther to fall.

[quote]Dutch-y accents, and it would at least be interesting if Bertha had some faint Irish affectations in her speech.

The wealthy and upper-classes would all have had VERY strict elocution lessons in schools set up precisely for that purpose. These accents presented might not be authentic but did the upper classes speak in a contrived and uniform way back then? You bet they did

[quote]I was concerned that Spector was going to play George Russell as Snidely Whiplash after the first episode, but he's been okay and better than Carrie Coon.

It is Ms. Coon who is playing Snidely Whiplash.

I guess Marian is Nell. Given the absence of a real Dudley Do-Right, we'd just need Snidely to be successful for one.

R262 In regards to #4 and the Van Rijns having a Dutch-y accent, the Dutch controlled the colony of New Amsterdam for only 55 years from founding in 1609 to 1654 before it then became English, so that would have been 225 years prior to this show and the Dutch language would have been far removed and much abandoned at that point. The only place that the Dutch language held on was in place names throughout NYC and up through the Hudson River Valley to Albany.

There was a reputation of the Dutch founding families holding on to their traditions that Washington Irving, the first internationally known American author, in his tale Rip Van Winkle was mocking, but that was part of a general revival and interest in Dutch origins of New York that was happening in the 19th century that resulted in things like the revival and interest in St. Nicholas and the creation of the Santa Claus myth and imagery in the United States.

A Visit from Saint Nicholas was part of this and solidified much of the imagery. It was published anonymously in a Troy, New York newspaper for decades before eventually being claimed by Clement Moore. But there are many who believe that it was written by Henry Livingston, the very family that Agnes claims lineage to. In the first published version of the poem, Donder and Blitzen are actually the Dutch words for thunder and lightening, which Livingston would have known. But in the later version the words were transformed to the similar sounding German words for thunder and lightening, a language that Clement Moore knew.

If you were connecting the idea of Agnes and Ada coming from Pennsylvania and maybe having Dutch-y language revenants, and making the connection to Pennsylvania Dutch, they have nothing to do with the actual Dutch. The Pennsylvania Dutch are actually German and the language was “Pennsylvania Deutsch” that was twisted into “Dutch.” That was a community that did retained and handed down their language from there arrival and that still exists today, though it was a hybrid mix of German and English. People who speak with English inflected with Pennsylvania Dutch are still to this day said to sound Dutch-y.

BUT I'm related to the Vandervoorts. The stopped in MD and went a little farther south and were ditchdiggers. I know, right?

Anyway, they called my ggg grandmother "Mur." My aunt knew her and told me this. She had no idea why. Googled it and it's Dutch for mother.

So, that lasted over two hundred years!

Morgan Spector doesn't need to be some great actor. All he needs to do is get naked every episode and swing his pendulous dong as he struts around his mansion. Oh and also his character should fuck his twink son.

I just posted this silly idea to the Nicolas Fairford (snoozy twinky self-appointed domestic design maven of YouTube fame) ans while I was writing it, I decided I like the idea and should pitch it here. Unfortunately, the characters are not nearly snarky and cruel enough on the show to make me think any of the writers participate in DataLounge.

Anyway! Nicolas should be cast on The Gilded Age as a continental designer to old European royalty who turns out to be a scheming fraudster from Liverpool.

At the same time, 'Hollywood Medium' Tyler Henry could be cast as a spiritual medium who Aunt Cynthia Nixon falls in with and gives a bunch of money to.

Then the two charlatains could hook up and scamper away together with a big chunk of Aunt Cynthia Nixon's inheritance. Nic and Tyler would get their SAG cards and they'd both look adorable in their Victorian fineries.

is he an actor?

[quote]I would love it if one of the characters got caught up in spiritualism and there was a scene with a seance and then of course the medium would get exposed as a fraud. What fun that would be.

Whoopi is gonna get into this damn show, one way or another!

Penny Dreadful covered a seance scene in a very effective way:

Why are there no children? Are they all working in factories?

I think Ada is secretly Oscar's mother. Didn't she says something like Mr. van Rijn was not a man you would like to be alone with or similar?

Wish this show was on Sunday nights. It feels like a Sunday night show.

A question for anyone here or on other threads talking about how hot incest is or would be--do you really think that?

This was covered in the very first thread (welcome, newcomers!) but clearly Morgan Spector was cast because he reads Jewish and, therefore, lets Julian Fellowes off the hook, having to write the character as Jewish.

r262 Good observations!

The Peggy story line is....not very realistic. They're going out of their way to provide a strong, positive story line with a Black female character but it's not very accurate or the slightest bit representative of what life was like for most Black people in 1881 in NYC. Yes, there would have been a "Black Elite" but it was a very tiny community...your average Black person didn't live any kind of life like the life they're portraying for Peggy. And, Peggy's father is a pharmacist...would he have really been part of the "Elite"? Middle class yes but on the same level as say a doctor or lawyer? And, the only Black people we've seen have been Peggy, her parents, the cute editor at the newspaper and some very well dressed people on the very fancy street in the supposed upper snooty Black neighorhood in Brooklyn where Peggy's family lives. We've never seen or heard discussed the lives of the majority of Black people living in New York at this time, who most certainly were not living in beautiful row houses with their own staff of servants.

And, I get it...the show is completely avoiding ANY depiction of any other kind of New Yorker other than the Elites and the Servants who work for them. The New York they portray is vey clean, orderly and pristine...no slums or teeming masses are being depicted, of any ethnicity!

Even Peggy's presence in the van Rijn house is a mystery. Who helps her get dressed? Does her hair? Washes and irons her VERY nice and very expensive dresses? She herself is in a servile position as a Black woman employed as a secretary in a white household yet she is presented as being a person of wealth.

Of course, as I mentioned higher up in the thread, there is a servant issue in the van Rijn household....they're lacking at least two maids. Someone has to be sweeping, dusting, changing the beds, polishing, lighting fires, etc. Not to mention dressing Ada and Marian.

And, briefly, the show does also have a problem with language. There's a lot of modern word usage and phrases thrown around in this show...it seldom feels very 19th century. Whether that's laziness or intentional, I don't know. Maybe both.

Hey, r280! I live in a tenement and I'm teeming!!

Otherwise, I agree with everything you say.

[quote]The Peggy story line is....not very realistic. They're going out of their way to provide a strong, positive story line with a Black female character but it's not very accurate or the slightest bit representative of what life was like for most Black people in 1881 in NYC. Yes, there would have been a "Black Elite" but it was a very tiny community...your average Black person didn't live any kind of life like the life they're portraying for Peggy. And, Peggy's father is a pharmacist...would he have really been part of the "Elite"? Middle class yes but on the same level as say a doctor or lawyer? And, the only Black people we've seen have been Peggy, her parents, the cute editor at the newspaper and some very well dressed people on the very fancy street in the supposed upper snooty Black neighorhood in Brooklyn where Peggy's family lives. We've never seen or heard discussed the lives of the majority of Black people living in New York at this time, who most certainly were not living in beautiful row houses with their own staff of servants.

I disagree with the above. While very small, there has always been a Black middle class (or, some semblance of that) in this country from nearly its very beginnings. Now, I want to be very clear that I am in no way trying to diminish the struggle of Black civil rights in this country at all. But, the first acknowledged Black lawyer was in 1844 who later became a Judge in 1873 (Macon Bolling Allen). Do you believe that he was the only one? Or, the only one coming through who was educated? In fact, at one point (after the Civil War) Blacks were generally more educated than whites. That is because right after the Civil War besides land Blacks wanted/demanded schools and sent their children to be educated. Blacks made GREAT strides during the short Reconstruction period (about 10 years) and that is why the Southern whites wanted it ended. Speaking of my own family, a female slave who was brought here at the age of 12 and sold into slavery sent her daughter to college after the Civil War had ended. Even prior to the Civil War there were Black plantation (not farms) owners who owned slaves. I believe the largest Black plantation owner was William Ellison was the largest plantation owner. Of course, this Black middle class wasn't immune to racism, etc but it/they did exist.

R282 I never implied that there wasn't a Black middle/upper class in the time frame of this show. Only that this show is ONLY portraying one class of people. And, the version they are portraying in the show is highly idealized. Lucky Peggy just seems to glide along as a Black American Princess with very few hardships in life (well, other than her soap opera plotline....) which wouldn't have been the reality in 1881 even for a young Black woman of privilige.

Most Black people in New York City in 1881 were living in substandard housing and were mostly relegated to terrible jobs no body else wanted. The Gilded Age is unlikely to present that kind of reality for Black people or any other ethnic group/socio economic group other than the ones they are choosing to depict: rich white people (mostly), their servants (in lackluster B stories) and 4 black characters.

It's not about poor black people. Geez. Or tenement dwellers. It's about rich whites, their servants, and a middle class black woman. That's like saying Dynasty needed more homeless crack addicts.

The people on the show aren't supposed to be "typical"

Oh, God, the B word. Don't mention the B word! It wounds.

[quote]Most Black people in New York City in 1881 were living in substandard housing and were mostly relegated to terrible jobs no body else wanted.

MOST people were living in substandard housing and were mostly relegated to terrible jobs that nobody wanted. As R284 points out, the series is about rich whites. While it attempts to educate it can't be the cure all that addresses every social ill of that time. FYI; My I recommend 3 books that you would want to read (and enjoy) if you have not read them already;

-Our Kind of People: Inside America's Black Upper Class/Lawrence Otis Graham

-The Original Black Elite: Daniel Murray and the Story of a Forgotten Era/Elizabeth Dowling Taylor

-Black Gotham: A Family History of African Americans in Nineteenth-Century New York City/Carla Peterson

and, oh! I just finished this one;

-Black Fortunes: The Story of the First Six African Americans Who Survived Slavery and Became Millionaires/Shomari Wills

I have been condo shopping in DC, and I just saw a condo in an eight-unit historic building in Logan Circle that has a sign in front of it noting that the mansions in the neighborhood were built by and lived in by very wealthy black families in the early 1900s. They were eventually abandoned, the neighborhood fell apart, and then there was a revival with the mansions being carved up into condos.

There were a good number of rich black families around the turn of the century. We have mostly never heard of them, and that's another good reason to substantiate a black history month.

As for the show, it is "about" black people, too. Peggy is a primary character and her parents and hee apparent love interest are becoming solid supporting characters. HBO is not going to waste the talents of Audra McDonald. Peggy is secondary societally and 'depends on the kindness of white strangers,' but in the narrative arc, she has a primary and prominent role. I feel certain she will become an important, influential writer who is more or less lost to history.

Well, Peggy is based upon the life of Ida B. Wells

[quote]I have been condo shopping in DC, and I just saw a condo in an eight-unit historic building in Logan Circle that has a sign in front of it noting that the mansions in the neighborhood were built by and lived in by very wealthy black families in the early 1900s. There were a good number of rich black families around the turn of the century. We have mostly never heard of them, and that's another good reason to substantiate a black history month.

EXCELLENT! And, you're 100% correct about Black History Month!

Who are the homosexualists in the cast?

Those three young bucks are friends on Instagram, but who is friends with Clayborne Elder? Does Clay have any photos from the shoot on his Instagram page?

The way most of the people speak alone feels inauthentic (maybe it's not, but it feels that way), as if the characters are speaking like 1930s and '40s movie stars, which sounds 'old timey,' but which was an entirely manufactured entertainment accent. Did Victorian New Yorkers really speak that way?

Yes, they did. I read an interview with Michelle Pfeiffer back when she was filming The Age of Innocence thirty years ago, and she said she had to be taught Mid-Atlantic Received Pronunciation to play the Countess Olenska (who was raised and brought up in Old New York), because she said that was the way Old New York society people spoke back then. In the old days, theater and film actors were supposed to speak like their "social betters," which is why professional American actors learned how to speak in Mid-Atlantic Received Pronunciation (unless they specialized in lower-class roles).

[quote]One of the servants speaks with a typical New Yawk accent, and I would think the Van Rijns might have inherited more Dutch-y accents, and it would at least be interesting if Bertha had some faint Irish affectations in her speech.

The old Knickerbocker families were often of Dutch origins, but by the time of 1880s, the old Dutch families like the Van Rensselaers, Schermerhorns, Schuylers, De Peysters, Gansevoorts, Van Cortlandts, etc. had been in the United States for several generations (in some cases, for longer than two centuries) and so would no longer speak with Dutch accents.

Moreover, not all Knickerbockers were Dutch: many, like the Joneses, Morrises, Masons, Livingstons, Alsops, etc .were of British descent. Even though the fictional Van Rhijns on the show are apparently a family of Dutch origin, Agnes, Ada, and Marian were all born Brooks (which is an English name), and Agnes has said that her and Ada's mother (who was also Marian's grandmother) was a Livingston, and the real-life Livingstons were British (Scottish).

OK, I just read about the Mid-Atlantic accent and I had never registered before that it was used by elite East Coasters. I always thought it was crated by and for the entertainment industry to make movies and TV shows more marketable in other English-speaking countries.

This is a recording of president McKinley (c. 1900), who had an over-the-top version with trilled Rs. It calls to mind the fraudulent professor from the Wizard of Oz.

From Wikipedia:

[quote] Wealthy or highly educated Americans known for being lifelong speakers of the Mid-Atlantic accent include William F. Buckley Jr., Gore Vidal, H. P. Lovecraft, Franklin D. and Eleanor Roosevelt, Alice Roosevelt Longworth, Averell Harriman, Dean Acheson, George Plimpton, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis (who began affecting it permanently while at Miss Porter's School), Louis Auchincloss, Norman Mailer, Diana Vreeland (though her accent is unique, with not entirely consistent Mid-Atlantic features), C. Z. Guest Joseph Alsop, Robert Silvers, Julia Child (though, as the lone non-Northeasterner in this list, her accent was consistently rhotic), and Cornelius Vanderbilt IV.

Here's a clip of Gore Vidal. He sounds pompous, which must be the influence of the accent, but the accent doesn't seem as...affected as it did among people from earlier generations.

It's funny, as soon as I heard the McKinley clip I thought of FDR.

Here's his mother, late in life, but she would have been in the thick of the Gilded Age as a young woman, as was born 1854. The English influence sounds strong to my ear.

What will happen tonight? Will Mrs. Astor attend, but in a hat and veil so as not to be recognized? Will George attack Oscar for wanting to take Gladys' money but not give her decent sex life, killing him with a fireplace fender? Will a mysterious assailant lock Bertha and Agnes inside one of Mamie Fish's frilliest dresses and set it alight? Later to be revealed as Bannister, and paving the way for the arrival of his daughter to join the household when Bertha feels lonely after a furious Gladys, grieving Oscar, goes to work in the petroleum fields of Pennsylvania, later recast by way of explosion with a prettier and less talented actress?

The one tonight I do wonder about is whether or not Bannister will make a move of revenge somehow that screws up Bertha's shindig. But maybe Uncle Julian has forgotten about that plot by now, there are a lot of fancy dresses involved tonight.

The other thing I wonder is it will be a success? There's footage of George and Bertha waltzing that suggests kitty got her cream, she's grinning so widely so think so. But will they pack the place? If it adapts the history that it was party of the year territory and not to be missed, the place has to be packed with people. Costuming them would cost a fortune before you pay them. It's probably not a big cost barrier.

Did anybody else think Aurora Fane's line at Fish's dinner table "And you amuse her more than she expected" kinda fell flat? I don't see Bertha written as terribly amusing. She struts like she owns the place pretty much everywhere, everything she says to the old people is a fairly smooth suck up, but not note perfect, and when she gets a win (like the invitation to Fish's dinner) she gets this wide eyed smile on her face like she can't believe her luck.

I did like the flicker of "oh, God" between Fane and Mrs. McAllister over the Astor place when Bertha belts out: How much did it cost?

Bertha's almost there as a great character. She's obvious, determined, vulnerable to being crass about money and appearance, but she's actual quite fair and cordial with her servants and the scenes with Gladys in the ballroom last week she played with a gentle undertone. I do wish the thing could go five or six more episodes, it feels like it's starting to gel.

r295, the actress who plays Gladys, Taissa Farmiga, has been signed on to Season 2. I expect she'll lose the frizzy fringe next season.

Of course Mrs. Fish finds all the social climbers amusing. The more ambitious, the more laughable. Bertha may have potential to be an interesting character but Coon isn't getting the writing or direction to do it and she's only good when she's frustrated. The ball should end with something grim and foreshadowing---Betha 's climb will, in some ways, never be over. Perhaps a servant will make a faux pas or a mysterious stranger will crash the party. A back alley knife fight between Bertha and a deranged Mrs. Morris would be more fun, but knowing Fellowes, it will be something obvious, stupid and poorly executed.

you guys watch too much super hero action films

[quote]A back alley knife fight between Bertha and a deranged Mrs. Morris would be more fun, but knowing Fellowes, it will be something obvious, stupid and poorly executed.

Love that! The only spanner in the works I can predict Fellowes delivering is Bannister getting his revenge on Church, with Bertha's party as collateral damage.

Fish was so awesomely bitchy: Oh, it's agreeable, don't you worry.

Mamie Fish better be the new Dowager Countess next season.

Here’s a more contemporaneous version of the Mid Atlantic accent from filmmaker Burr Gore Steers, whose mother is the younger stepsister of Gore Vidal and who is a descendant of Aaron Burr. He attended St. Albans School and Hotchkiss and his first film Iggby Goes Down captured the upper class milieu of Washington D.C. that he grew up in. His brother was a promising openly Gay painter who died of AIDS in 1995.

Yeah, I didn't think the line about Bertha amusing Mrs. Fish was necessarily meant to be a compliment.

Oh, I did. Mamie Fish is all about fun. I thought Aurora was reassuring Bertha it was going well. She's basically Bertha's sherpa in deportment, with MacAllister providing entreé. What made you interpret it differently, R303?

Why is this thread greyed out?

[quote]Why is this thread greyed out?

Most long-running threads with a lot of replies are

Mrs. Fish is a snob, so I took it as she was amused by how gauche Bertha is.

Learn about the REAL Mamie Fish! Very interesting. There wasn't a lot of money.

I’m sad tonight is the end at least for this year.

It’s a rave from Variety!

You may all love that bodice on Coon in r310's link, but it has nothing to do with 1882. Not even 1883.

I’m surprised no one has been counting down the hours to the finale?

I am!

{OT, I bought an online ticket to Coco Peru's streamed show from New York! Off to watch!]

Are you all riveted to the show? I like it but I find it pretty meh with some points of interest.

It’s comfort TV. Nothing wrong with that.

Lord, they are using every prop in the book to hide Ms. Coon’s pregnancy short of the requisite laundry basket.

Tonight….tonight…the ball will be tonight!

This show feels like watching the social politics inside a coop of fancy chickens.

For a brief second there I thought sure we were going to get a Sofia Coppola Marie Antoinette “Vogue” quadrille from Gladys and gang. I’m still looking for a hint of high top pink Converses under that dress though.

They stuck pretty close to the Alva Vanderbilt/Mrs. Astor standoff, sometimes truth is better than fiction. Enjoyable season finale. DL’s soothsayers we’re correct with most predictions, as usual.

I really enjoyed Episode 9! Lots of action.

And ... what the hell? The ball lasted all night? And they went home at dawn? That's fucked up. Those rich folks are hard core.

Oh, yes, R322, that's how they rolled.

After all that to-do over the chef and the supper, we didn't get to see any of it? That seems really, not sure how to put it---dramatically unbalanced? Why make such a huge issue of all the circumstances if you're not going to follow up on any of it?

But it was the best episode so far, in my opinion. Satisfying that Raikes is out of the picture, and that Aardvark Russell is wearing her hair up now. Mrs. Astor's ensemble when she visited Mrs. Russell was exquisite. As was her carriage! (Not the vehicle.) Good to see Aunt Agnes smile. I wish that Aurora, Ada, and Marian had cut Raikes.

Also, the costumes with the horse heads were delightful. If Mrs. Russell keeps up that level of amusement, we can see how she'll eventually become a popular hostess---even if not accepted without reservation by Old New York.

Yes, but could Mrs. Russell ever hope to earn the title of "fun-maker?" I think not.

The season finale was a mixture of plot lines stolen from "The Heiress", "The Color Purple" & "Fawlty Towers". Still, it was fun & faggoty!

Bertha's ball gown: Honey chile... I wouldn't wear that dress to a hog killin'.

Peggy's story: So hokey... It's great that Peggy & family are shown as normal human beings, & not stereotypes, but, it makes no sense about the baby, Peggy was married when her son was born, wouldn't Peggy be shunned as (gasp), a divorced woman?

Loathe that the two gay characters are portrayed as a pair of scheming weasels, of course, this is a Julian Fellowes joint (vile old queen).

Ah, Marian learns the truth about Mr. Raikes. Her noble departure was too soapish for words. And, of course, he's at the ball. Nonesense about "loving her' makes it seem like this will be some dreadful drawn out nonsense.

The Bertha-Astor thing would have been better with Bertha being defeated. She's much better that way. the Astor threat for the future seemed hollow. The whole last minute business with everyone was too unbelievable for words, but we get to have a showy party which Julian loves. The nonsense about the new people forming their own society presumes Bertha has new money friends, which she hasn't demonstrated yet. There's less at stake than they make it seem. Gladys doesn't look very fetching in that white wig. Nice to see John Adams muscling his way in. Agnes is obviously unhappy with Oscar. I wonder is Oscar has deluded himself.

Ada isn't as dim as we think---well, she may be still be pretty dim. I wonder if Agnes knows more than anyone else thinks.

And the French chef from Kansas---too dumb a plotline even for Julian. The rehire was even dumber.

And the letter to Peggy's father......DL predicted this.

Guess Marion secretly doesn't have any money.

I have to say, I would have preferred an even more villainous Raikes and the secret railway shares (a DL invention, but I liked it) he was conniving to get his hands on. But I guess they just went for the easy out with him dropping Marian for the richer gal. Oh well. I guess that would've been too harsh or something, and Julian does seem to go into a panic if people are being too mean or flawed in a way that can't be all nicely smoothed over.

It was pretty bad, but very entertaining. The Raikes situation makes no sense. He wanted to marry her even though she had no money and led her on until he found someone rich? I would have bought it if he thought she was getting an inheritance or something, but this was too stupid for words. Maybe he wanted to marry her because she secretly the daughter of a very famous actress! Oh, and when Stephen Spinella walked in, all I thought was anotehr double Tony winner!

Marian having her own money could have made for an interesting storyline for next season as she tries to live independently on her own, which women of her class just didn't do unless they were widowed.

[quote]I wonder if Agnes knows more than anyone else thinks.

I wondered that too, although I don't think Julian is clever enough to pull it off, but I wondered if Agnes somehow sent Miss Bingham to the opera box that night. But in fairness, I don't know how she would, if Miss Bingham is new money. Still it would have been a clever little twist if this show were actually interested in clever little twists and not big bold Bertha-level sledgehammers.

I admit I had a bit of a chubby when daddy Russell put his hand on Harry’s thigh. And I don’t go for that incest shit, even the fictional kind.

I thought it was kind of an odd choice for the director to move the camera down to show only their legs as Mr. Russell tapped Larry's thigh. They could have done that in a wide shot and showed their faces to convey the same thing.

I was wondering if they were going to have Mr. Russell say, "You know, Larry, you have grown up to be quite a handsome young man. And this may be an odd time to tell you, but I think you ought to know that you were adopted. Yes ... you are not really my biological son."

Please, the bitch had nothing to do with it, and almost wrecked the whole thing, r324. Miss Astor and I pulled it off, as we had to, despite all of Mama's nonsense.

It was all too conveniently plotted.

Marian finds out and he admits it.

Mrs. Astor completely capitulates at the last minute.

And Marian is thrown in with Mr. Russell, Jr. whom she is, obviously, supposed to end up with.

I would have liked Mrs. Russell's party to have had hiccups that Mrs. Astor relished. Leaving Mrs. Russell's place in society still in question.

No loose ends, EVER!!!!

[quote] It was all too conveniently plotted.

[quote] Mrs. Astor completely capitulates at the last minute.

That's what happened in real life: Carrie Astor was not invited to the Vanderbilts' fancy ball where she waned to dance a quadrille she had practiced, and Mrs, Vanderbilt said that it was because she did not know her mother (who had long cut her); and so Mrs. Astor found her favorite child in tears, she sent her to footmen with her calling card to Mrs. Vanderbilt, who then immediately invited both women to the ball, where Carrie got to dance her quadrille to her heart's delight.

I think it's perfectly fine to base the story on what really happened. There are plenty of other liberties that are being taken in other areas where what is being shown is way off from the history.

This show is stupendously silly, but by God, I’ve loved it. It’s just…fun to watch. I’ve also loved reading and learning about the real people of the NYC Gilded Age.

I could really do with a whole lot less of the servants’ back stories next season, though. Do we need to have “business” on every one of them? I could not care less about Debra Monk’s old cunt of a mother, or why Michael Cerveris looks like he has diarrhea every time he sees that chick.

Cue the Mr. Russell/Larry incest fanfic porn

[quote] I could not care less about Debra Monk’s old cunt of a mother

In fairness, neither does the show, which has forgotten all about her.

Carrie looked very pretty when she was sitting at her vanity with her hair down. I hope they slap some makeup on Baranski next season. She looks ancient.

Lookit. Them dresses was complicated. Hell. Wimmin's underwears was complicated. So getting a lady's maid to get a woman in and outa her clothes was standard operating procedures. The poor wimmin didn't dress like the rich ones did.

Will John Adams try to push Gladys down the stairs or something?

Larry is like an Leyendecker illustration come to life...swoon.

What stuck out while watching the dancing at the ball was the fact that the extras all waltzed beautifully and the main characters all danced with two left feet. Amusing.

The whole 'the French chef is from Wichita' plot had us rolling on the floor at how ridiculous it was.

Are they gonna have the fake French chef's wife join the cast next season?

Kirstie Alley is from Wichita! Bitch needs a job and it's spot on casting!

It's still a terrible show but the last two episodes HAVE been VERY entertaining and moved quickly.

The writing is still ridiculously bad and the direction not much better.

Observations:

Meryl Streep's Third Daughter actually defrosted a bit tonight...she got a chance to show emotions!!!!

I liked Ada a lot tonight...really, I think she's one of the best characters on the show and Nixon is doing a great job playing her.

Baranski really seems like she's just phoning it all in. She has no connection to any of the plots or characters other than Ada. It's like she exists in a vacuum. And, frankly her cold fish character and performance isn't that much different from all her other cold fish characters and performances over the years.

I also liked Donna Murphy's Mrs. Astor a lot. They need to give her more to do next season.

I wish they'd recast Blake Ritson. He's too old and too creepy to play Oscar.

And, I feel sorry for Peggy...apparently her plot next season is to go searching for her son with Mama Audra in tow. Not really a fun storyline.

Coon FINALLY seems to be settling into her role. Or, maybe they've figured out how to write her. She's best when they make Bertha more of a ridiculous character...she's less flat and more interesting.

Hopefully in Season 2 they give poor Larry and Gladys some actual story lines of their own.

R350 Great summary, and I'm with you on Cynthia Nixon. I really believe her as Aunt Ada. She's been wonderful in this role.

Cynthia's early scene with Baby Streep made.me cry.

The bad Heiress rip-off, poorly done.

I didn’t realize that the actress who plays Marian is a Streeplet. I thought she looked and sounded like a Gummer girl, but I didn’t put two an two together. Or, rather, I put two and two together and came up with 3.7. How dumb am I? ( fire away).

To y’all who are liking Cynthia Nixon in this, I take it you didn’t see her in that Emily Dickinson movie because that who she playing Ada as.

I was horrified by the reveal that Marian is really poor. I thought Raikes is after her money. In hindsight, him pushing for a quick elopement makes no sense (the worst red herring ever). Fellows should've made Raikes the bad guy by stringing Marian along until someone better and more suitable (as in rich) came along, and admitting it coldly when Marian was looking for him at his office. Dear God, the bitch is really ... *gasp* POOR!

Loved the ball. That little dance performance of Gladys was so charming and whimsical. Oscar is such a sleazebag, sliming his way to being Glady's first dance partner.

The only thing the show didn't reveal was the bald servant's obsession with the woman (who was also a guest at the ball).

I would like to see more Sylvia Chamberlain, and less Oscar and his "steam punk" shtick.

Does anyone know the name of the painting that is on the left of the Degas in the Chamberlain woman's house?

Ya know this is so poorly written (even for soap opera standards) that it survives solely because of all of the money expended on the costumes and settings. I've never seen "Downton Abbey" but if it was written like one this than I'm at a wonder at how that show survived for so many years! So many story lines make no sense. Make no sense at all. But, you deal with what you have.

The Peggy Scott storyline while unbelievable is believable. There were/are men like that and who are that controlling. But, I don't get what the father is expecting for his daughter. She's spoilt. Not only has she had a dick inside her but she has passed a bowling ball through her vagina too! It doesn't make sense to me the father's consistent financial support of his grandson. I would understand a one time payment and money paid to get him settled wherever, but more than that?

Why does Tripplehorne allow the show to make her look so dowdy and old? My goodness! She's only 58! I guess a paycheck is a paycheck...

The Raikes/Marian mess makes no sense. How are you convincing someone to elope and then stand them up all in the same episode? Then is the show now going to suggest that there is something between Larry Russell (appropriately cast but miscast) and Marian? That actually would be interesting.

I like Aurora Fane and the character. But, who cast her husband? When they stand together it looks like a 40year age difference. I do agree with those above that Cynthia Nixon did quite well with Ada last night! Very believable.

More later. Bathroom!

[quote]The only thing the show didn't reveal was the bald servant's obsession with the woman (who was also a guest at the ball).

My money is on the card that says she is his daughter.

R338: IT's one thing for Astor being coerced, it's another for everyone else being coerced by Astor.

And poor Nancy Anderson as Mrs. MacCallister didn't get invited to the ball! Or did she have a sick headache or maybe the vapors!

and where is Mamie Fish???

Some random observations:

I loved last night's episode for the most part. I laughed a lot and thought the ball scenes were better done than I expected. If it actually happened, wouldn't the ball room have been packed? The 400 fitting Mrs. Astor's ballroom etc. (I know that's not actually true.) I assume a full full house would have been impossible to shoot and expensive as hell. But did pretty well and I enjoyed it. Still, even his best script feels rushed and convenient. I can't remember what it was but there was a 100% lift of a plot development from Downton and it's just like, come on, man, try a little harder.

And that party needed some Fish bitchin' in between eclairs.

I liked how the main theme was written as a waltz at the end. For the first time the scoring stood out for me throughout the episode and I haven't really noticed the music much prior.

I am not I told ya so-ing or gloating but I wasn't surprised the Raikes story ended like a damp squib. Stolen stocks, Ada's secretly Streeplet's mother - a lot of theories have been advanced here but high night time soap twists on the camp scale are not Uncle Julian's style or the style of his base.

The Raikes story spluttered to an odd end. It had no drama. He seemed whiny and shallow, when he ought to have been semi-villainous. I thought Streeplet did really well. She's capable of doing better than she has. Maybe there's one thing worse than her acting and that's the writing.

I agree, Nixon has managed to deliver a lot with a small part. (I assume she did it for the money and a lark, if you can call those costumes and wigs a lark!) Ada's OK. So is Agnes. The actresses have made bricks without straw.

Oscar is creepy. If he fell under one of George's steam trains I'd be good with that. The role is oddly, oddly cast for the path they seem to have set for him. It's a good story but that dude is too old and odd looking (in the period) to carry it off. Gladys said it and should say it again: I'm out baby, I'm working the room for awhile...

Gladys is quite pretty with her hair up.

Carrie Coon reminds me of an old time "star" in that she's got some intangible quality on and off screen that makes her watchable. I watched some of her Youtube videos... maybe it's partly her basso profundo voice, but there's nothing like a confident, relaxed woman having a good time... she interviews well and if it's an act she really is a good actress.

Still totally team Kelli O'Hara. Had no idea who she was before this but she shone. Again, made bricks without straw, adding all kinds of richness to her role. I can't imagine the show without Aurora Fane navigating the different quarters.

I think the challenge next year will be, as ever, the writing. Last night could have been a series finale. And that's the risk... every series gets stupid when it has basically outlived its central story and but the money's still rolling in and it's a scramble for ideas. I guess there's story in Gladys' marital fate and her mother's ambitions and probably story in Bertha builds at Newport and maybe a Streeplet/Larry rebound and wedding (which would be comic gold as the families plan something simple and tasteful...) but it feels to me like there's not a lot of runway to keep it from getting tired, fast.

Hats off the largely unknown Broadway actors, who as above took these tiny parts and acquitted them beautifully. The girl who plays Carrie Astor was really good. John Adams the 14th seemed to achieve as much in the background as when he spoke.

Someone upthread said it felt like they were finally finding their footing. I agree. One of the production crew said something along the lines of I hope next year we can have more fun now that we've figured out how to do this and spent all this money on all these sets.

[quote]And, I feel sorry for Peggy...apparently her plot next season is to go searching for her son with Mama Audra in tow. Not really a fun storyline.

sounds like we get to see Gilded Age Philadelphia

We know that Mr. Russell owes Marian a solid. I bet she will get him to help Peggy get her son back. I want that resolved quickly. I don’t want many episodes of Peggy and her mom digging around Philly for the kid. Let her get him back and then get to her romancin’ the hot newspaper publisher.

Dlers really had the final episode pegged, predicting nearly everything that happened. Not that this show is any sort of deep puzzle.

They certainly squeezed a lot into that final hour. So much going on. What happened to poor Widow Whatshername who’s hubby blew his brains out. Couldn’t they have wrapped up her storyline? Maybe shown her behind the counter at Bloomie’s or scrubbing Mrs Russell’s chamberpot?

leave her for the second season

R355 About the bald servant, who is Michael Cerveris playing Watson, George Russell’s valet, I’m assuming he is another Russell servant who is not whom he seems to be. You have the lady’s maid who was a schemer to marry George, the French chef who’s from Kansas and I think Watson was once a wealthy man who lost it all and had a fall and became disgraced. The reason he knows how to be valet is because he was once so wealthy he had one himself.

Somehow he managed to get his daughter married off to a good family, but when he went broke basically he disappeared from her life, but now can’t quite stay away. The thing is did he go broke because of a business deal with George who ruined him, and his place in the house is to eventually get revenge? The fact that his daughter didn’t recognize him means he’s changed his looks so radically (shaved head, baldness) she didn’t notice, is that why George may not recognize him as well? Or perhaps he was in the Midwest and had not met in person. That story arc would also justify having an actor of that caliber in this role.

Fuckable guys - Gilded age

1. Mister Russell - what a fine specimen! He'd throw a hard fuck, and then let you fuck him just to see you get turned on

2. Mister Adams the 14th - seems a bit needy but damn, that's a NICE rack! fuck him for bragging rights

3. Mister Fortune - of course we want to be equal-oppotunity, but Mister Fortune seems smart enough to even be entertaining on a date. or even on the second fuck

4. Young Russell, twink edition. Awfully earnest, which is sweet, and easy on the eyes, he likely has a lot to learn yet, but seems a good student (and not only of architecture)

5. Mister Raikes - DEFINITELY the one you fuck and then delete his number (or throw away his calling card, what ever the equivalent would be). Likely more into fucking sugar daddies than you, unless you are one

6. that one Footman, "Jack?" he dresses up nicely, seems to like a good time, and well, the accent is sort of cute in short spells.

7. Mister Scott, seems controlling, but just don't get preggers and he'd probably be great for a short fling while in chicago. the voice is very bedroom

8. Bannister - why not? you just know the old dog has some tricks up his sleeve, and you know he'd never kiss and tell!

9. Mister van Rhijn, sort of creepy, but who doesn't like a bad boy when out at the bar every once in a while. he seems sleazy enough too to not recognize you when you're out walking your maiden aunt in Gramercy park

10. Mister McCallister - last resort, seems like he's MUCH more into grooming his mustachio than anything of a sexual nature. . . . .

The easily resolved tension and troubles reminds me of Entourage. "Turtle, you think I should choose the blonde or the redhead?" "Yo, just do em both Vin".

Bertha’s dress for the ball was extraordinary. She looked like she was dressed up as a dalmatian as she made her grand entrance down the staircase.

I just remembered the Downton lift... the chef's wife resurfacing, making demands once she figured out he had some success, and him slinking away. Totally Bates and his wife. I hope the copy cat stops with the idea and he's not going to recycle the whole thing.

Bertha's dress was surely based on this? It's later... 1899... but obvious similarities.

i see

Some fun stuff from Coon's twitter...

LOVE TGA !!!!!!!!!!!!! LUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUV !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mrs Astor's dress at the ball was spectacular!

[quote]Bertha’s dress for the ball was extraordinary. She looked like she was dressed up as a dalmatian

Do you think that it was possibly a nod to Cruella DeVille?

Poor Nathan Lane struggles to keep up with the dancing during that ballroom dancing scene.

How is Aurora Fane related to Agnes? Anyone know?

[quote]Let her get him back and then get to her romancin’ the hot newspaper publisher.

The newspaper publisher is a real-life person, T. Thomas Fortune, so that romance can;t go very far--we know what happens to him in real life (he never marries--may well have been gay).

[quote]How is Aurora Fane related to Agnes? Anyone know?

Aurora refers to Agnes as her aunt. Since Agnes only seems to have had two siblings we've heard about (i.e. Ada and Marian's late father, Henry), Aurora is probably the daughter of a sibling of Agnes's late husband.

I don't think they ever said. Now, Aunt can have a pretty loose definition. It could be like an aunt-in-law thing. Charles Fane never demonstrated any particular familiarity with Agnes so it doesn't seem to come through him. Agnes' husband's sister might have been Aurora Fane's mother, making Aurora's grandfather a Van Rhign or however you spell it?

[quote]Why does Tripplehorne allow the show to make her look so dowdy and old? My goodness! She's only 58! I guess a paycheck is a paycheck...

Women of that age in high society did not look great in 1882: they did not wear much makeup (if any), and they did not have access to plastic surgery or to fillers or Botox.

As it is, though, they make her look extremely glamorous--she always wears the most fabulous dresses and hats of all the women, except Bertha and Mrs. Astor. It's probably actually unlikely that a woman who would be an outcast of high society would want to look so spectacular when she went to charity bazaars or went shopping at Bloomingdale's (she would probably want to look more inconspicuous), and they seem to be stretching things to make her look fairly glamorous.

[quote] Mrs Astor's dress at the ball was spectacular!

I read an interview somewhere with the show's costume designer. She says she always has put lots of gold into Mrs. Astor's dresses this season to make clear that she's considered special even among these women.

But she got the worst hair and in this era, that's saying something. Everyone else looks like a Persian lamb coat, which is bad enough, but she didn't even get that.

Did Alva Vanderbilt and Mrs. Astor become friends?

[quote]The newspaper publisher is a real-life person, T. Thomas Fortune, so that romance can;t go very far--we know what happens to him in real life (he never marries--may well have been gay).

That's not true. Carrie C. Smiley was his wife and they had 3 children together. "Born in Florida on Dec 1860. Carrie C. Smiley married Timothy Thomas Fortune and had 3 children. She passed away on 14 January 1940 in Brooklyn, Kings County (Brooklyn), New York, United States of America." Of the 3 children, his son lived the longest. He died in 1965. The son became a doctor.

I asked earlier in this thread or the previous one, who is the person in the photograph that hangs in Fortune's office. I have yet to find that exact photo but I'm leaning towards Booker T. Washington because apparently Fortune was an advisor to Washington and edited his first book. The link is to Fortune's house (which has been saved) and is now a museum/cultural center. The organization is definitely trying to get use this series to bring attention to the museum! Good for them!

[quote]Did Alva Vanderbilt and Mrs. Astor become friends?

I think it very interesting that there has yet to be a documentary about Alva Vanderbilt. Besides being extremely controlling she was a very eclectic woman. Not only did she build these magnificent houses but she was very instrumental in the design of them too. It was like she was a co-architect

There's only 3 fuckable guys on this show.

1. Mr. Russell 2. John Adams 3. Mr. Fane as a distant third.

Larry is too twinkish and boyish, as is Jack the footman, Raikes and Oscar both need bags over their faces... Though Oscar does have a nice body.

[quote]Though Oscar does have a nice body.

Mmph... low standards, eh?

Yeah, I don’t think you cast an actor like Cerveris and not have him playing a substantial story in the series. I hope it’s something juicy that actually impacts the Russells and maybe other characters, and not just another, “hey look, servants have lives, too” brief thing.

I saw Cerveris on Broadway in Fun Home, and he was brilliant.

[quote] About the bald servant, who is Michael Cerveris playing Watson, George Russell’s valet, I’m assuming he is another Russell servant who is not whom he seems to be.

I’d bet he had an affair with the wife/daughter of a former employer, which resulted in the birth of his daughter who is an accepted member of the upper classes.

Marion was horrid... flat, weak, turgid, off key... for the series, and then suddenly by the last episode she was.....good? I mean by most objective critiques, she was interesting, unveiling new dimensions of the character. I loved that, although devastated by being jilted, she went to ball. Did not run and hide when the villain was there. Stood her ground but wasn't melodramatic when she confronted him. Was able to have an experience with the Russell boy. Who'd have guessed?

I thought it was a little funny when Aurora referred to Marian as her cousin. Oscar and Aurora are cousins on his father's side; Oscar and Marian are cousins on his mother's side. Aurora and Marian are not cousins because they are in no way blood related.

R381, yeah, the others looked less overwhelmed

R398: "Fictive kin" used to be more of a thing, also referring to relations in generational rather than precise terms. My mother's cousin Bernadine" was our "Aunt Bern" and there were a host of "relatives" who really my uncle Hughie's relatives by marriage. Aunt and Uncle also were used as honorifics for very close friends of the family---that sort of thing was common well into the second half of the 20th century.

I hope this is the last we see of the snake in the grass, Mr Raikes. Maybe he marries the Flagler girl.

This has to be the same Flagler family who has their name all over the state of Florida?

[quote]I hope this is the last we see of the snake in the grass, Mr Raikes.

I'm so disappointed in how this scenario was written. The potential was definitely there for something really good and meaty.

"The potential was definitely there for something really good and meaty."

Tell me about it.

R401, yes, I was hoping that when Aurora rushed in, it was going to be with news that she’d learned that Marian did indeed have wealth, and that Raikes new. I was hoping for more than “whispering in an opera box.”

I was also hoping that Mr. Russell would see her crying at the ball, find out about Raikes jilting her, and kick him out of the ball with one of his patented “I will ruin you” speeches.

Flagler was Standard Oil money.

There could have been a lot of better scenarios. At the benefit, Aurora and Ada could have given him the look of "Don't come near her. We know what you have done." The Chamberlain woman could have really done something more to register her displeasure. On and on. It just could have been better. But, I'm feeling that way about the homosexual storyline too.

[QUOTE] But, I'm feeling that way about the homosexual storyline too.

Okay, FRAU.

I'm far from a Frau, R406. I would have liked to have seen the better looking John Adams really make some inroads with Gladys and the other ladies. That would have driven that Oscar character crazy and enraged him to the nth level. He had some nerve to show up for a booty call after throwing Adams to the side. Bottoms generally don't accept that type of treatment.

It felt like a series finale. Perhaps they thought it wont get renewed.

So much squandered opportunity.

We've been waiting for 9 episodes for a confrontation - or some kind of interaction - between the Van Rhines and the Russells and what do we get? A look across the ballroom. Pathetic.

Peggy Scott is a journalist and her storyline and her story should have been a corruption investigation that brought her into conflict with Mr. Russell. Instead we get a story about a young, unwed, black mother. How very innovative.

There was a golden opportunity to change the stakes for Marian with a stunning plot twist - she's rich after all, because of secret railroad shares (thanks, DL!) - and we get a lame denouement that makes no sense whatsoever.

And per the above, where was the scene where anyone came to Marian's defense? Agnes should have discovered what he'd done and slapped his gold digging face in front of everyone at the ball. But that would be too exciting, I suppose.

And the Russell servant's mysterious relationship with the society girl? Oh, well. I suppose there'll be some movement in that story when the show reappears in a year or so.

I sat. through all 9 hours of this, and while the costumes are sumptuous, the wasted potential was egregious.

^ That's Uncle Julian. He comes up with great concepts. His writing doesn't live up to it.

Adams guy has dime eyes.

[quote]Instead we get a story about a young, unwed, black mother. How very innovative.

RACISM! RACISM! STEREOTYPE! What will you come up with next? The "Whose Your Baby's Daddy" storyline a la Maury Povich (smile)

Peggy was properly married when she conceived child. She is now a properly divorced mother.

I'd guess next year is mostly marriage games for Gladys and Larry. I would venture Larry and Streeplet will happen because the idea of the Van Rhijns and the Russells united in holy matrimony and wedding planning is chock full of hilarious tension - and they can have a big wedding episode at the end. Remember, it's the brides's side gets the bigger say usually so you'll have Agnes v. Bertha in the planning, because the B doesn't do subtle.

I'd guess Uncle Julian will spare Gladys from Oscar's clutches in the end. He's not a writer of drama in the serious sense. If he was, Gladys would be trapped in that living nightmare but that's not the tone of the show.

[quote] Okay, FRAU.

I'm not R405, but you have to admit the John/Oscar storyline was extremely rushed. They got very little screen time all season.

r357 stop playing around and see Downton Abby already, if you can sit through this then you will LOVE Downton which is insanely better. Just a warning, the Bates storyline will drag on, but everything else is great fun, perfect for a Sunday afternoon show. Please any of you sitting through Gilded Age, take the time to watch Downton. Don't start with the movie.

Many years ago I wrote Julian and asked him to mention the Alexander Palace, the Romanovs and Tsarskoe Selo in his scripts. He did this in Downton several times and he did it in the Gilded Age when he mentioned Catherine the Great and Tsarskoe Selo. Thank you!

I mean't Downton Abbey. I always forget the darn "e".

Putting Marian and Larry together right away is too obvious. We had one season with Marian chasing the wrong man, while Larry dithered around and did a whole lot of nothing. Seriously, he had no story other than that he wanted to be an architect. He showed no interest in girls.

I predict that next season Larry will get involved with the wrong girl while Marian does a whole lot of nothing helping other people out with their story lines. Marian and Larry would get together no earlier than Season 3.

And I thought you were talking about me...

Peggy is not divorced. Her father had her marriage annulled.

Did they really use the name "Larry" back then?

I second R415. Downton is much more fun than this show, even though it's ridiculous and soapy.

r369 any fuck list that doesn't place Charles Fane's calling cared within the top 3 is null and void in my book. Do better!

He is a Gilded Age Ken Doll.

I choose to believe that next season Mr. Raikes, in concert with his male Italian artist lover Dante (a descendant of DaVinci) poisons the poor Flagler girl soon after they marry. He then becomes a Merry Widower intent on reclaiming Marian. And this time Aggie like.

Just be happy that Larry doesn’t want to be a dentist and hang out with elves and Yukon mining spectators.

[quote](a descendant of DaVinci)

O, caro!

I’m friends with Clay and he’s even better looking in person. Pretty big too. It’s not just the camera.

Great body. Very nice.

His instagram is public as far as I know but his FB doesn’t share any further photos of him with the cast though. He shares stuff from Company too.

He shares a lot of pics of his kid with director Eric Rosen on Facebook though. I wonder how they split the time between NY and Kansas.

The must be planning to take this to Palm beach for at least one show. Or else why introduce a Flagler.

^Good point and observation, R428

r389 please remember that these women would have been from different generations. While Mrs. Astor was the queen of society, she was still old enough to be Alva's mother. Mrs. Astor was born in 1830. Alva Vanderbilt was born in 1853, she didn't marry Mr. Vanderbilt until 1875. Given their ages, Mrs. Vanderbilt is almost a young and hungry upstart, while Mrs. Astor would have been well into her mid-40s to early 50s by the time the two women clashed.

This would be like asking how close someone born in in 1980 might be to someone born in 2000. Socially, they probably got along, but I assume even the most popular Queen of society would be a bit of a bore in style and customs if 20 years apart. Alva danced to the beat of her own drum and took a stumble when she divorced her husband. Eventually, society relented because of her power. But the older set, from Mrs. Astor's generation, tended to shun divorced women.

Once invited into the circle, Mrs. Astor accepted the Vanderbilts as members and invitees to her balls. There isn't much to say that the two got along as friends, but maybe the lack of news means they were fine together.

Ms Fane deserves an Emmy.

I never thought that Steep Jr was doing a bad job. Did anyone else think that’s how she was playing the part? As a naive girl from PA with good manners and diction but not a worldly view. Someone like that would be kind of choppy and emotionless. I didn’t see it as poor acting. But clearly I’m in the minority.

I'm shocked by all the criticism of Coons. She's been the one consistent highlight of the show since episode 1, in my opinion. I love her tough as nails delivery, feels very NYC despite the couple moving there from somewhere (?) I can't remember their back story. Anyway, she seems like a street smart NYC woman, even if she's not from there. I love it.

I think that Covid protocols could explain a lot of the softness of the plot and writing. You can only do so much and this was filmed during peak Covid. I think it made the plot limited and therefore the writing and scenes off too.

I guess we will see next season.

R418, I was arguing the idea of Larry and Marian next year but now I think on it, you're right. I'm not sure Fellowes is as creative as you but he might just conjure up a wrong girl (Miss Bunting) for Larry, so Bertha will have something to demolish all series, while building a Matthew-Mary dynamic that season between Larry and Marian that gets paid off in series three or four. I still don't think Fellowes has the stones to put Gladys through the wringer with a gay husband and a miserable marriage but do think he'll take her to the verge of it.

R433, I think she got better as the season went on but I always found her fascinating. The voice, the eyes, the strut... she commands each scene she's in. Loved the Astor showdown... they were equal matches. And where Mrs. Astor was standing her ground based on self assurance and self regard, Bertha was George, fearlessly cutting a deal. Of the two of them, Bertha was actually the more likeable character - she was trying to better herself. Mrs. Astor was a terrible snob, she just had better manners and hid her contempt better than the Widow Morris.

R432, I thought she was very good in this episode

R409, Agnes isn't going to be slapping people in public. What a silly idea and even though you claim to hate the show you seem to have watched every moment of it

The gal playing Gladys does look very similar to Consuelo Vanderbilt

"This show has been popular on Twitter. What has struck you or surprised you about the response to the show, now that the first season has come to an end?

Warfield (producer): I just read something yesterday on Instagram that they considered us the Dynasty of the 1880s."

In real life, Vanderbilt—an inspiration for Carrie Coon’s Bertha Russell—was desperate to establish herself in polite society upon her arrival in New York with husband William. After facing reluctance from the old-money snobs, most notably Astor, Vanderbilt decided to throw an elaborate 1,200-person costume ball—and cannily ensnared Astor’s own daughter in her strategy, refusing to invite the teenager (who was supposed to take part in a dance with Alva’s daughter) unless Caroline herself paid a visit. The ruse worked and, because of Caroline’s attendance (approval her 1,000-plus guests could witness at last!), the ball marked Vanderbilt’s official coming-out.

The costume ball was also something of an extravagant housewarming. Vanderbilt and her husband had recently finished construction on their “Petit Chateau,” which cost a reported $3 million (approximately $90 million today). The Fifth Avenue mansion was built in the style of French royalty, and would inspire other European-style homes in New York after it. (Fellowes notes that the Richard Morris Hunt–designed home, one of the real Gilded Age’s great mansions, has since been “demolished and replaced by a business building of no architectural merit at all,” says Fellowes. “It was a great loss for New York.”)

The hostess was so determined to show off her property that she (or one of her staffers) invited a New York Times journalist to tour her home before the party, even providing precise measurements of the rooms and the name of her florist, both of which appear in the report. “All Society in Costume: Mrs. W.K. Vanderbilt’s Great Fancy Dress Ball” made the front page of The New York Times and spilled onto a second. There were precise details about the anticipation ahead of the event (it “has agitated New-York society more than any social event that has occurred here in many years”), a tick-tock of the event itself, a description of the evening’s best costumes, and a recap of the quadrilles.

How old is Oscar suppose to be in the show?

Older than dirt.

R441, I assumed he was early 30s or so.

I don't think we've seen the last of Mr. Raikes.

He and Marian LURVE each other!

And, how does the news that And So It Goes got renewed effect Gilded Age? Now, both Nixon and Baranski are playing double duty on two shows each.

Baranski's characters are always the same (cold and chilly divas) but poor Cindy Lou Nixon will be switching from adorable Auntie Ada to cunty dumb dyke Miranda. She's gonna get confused about when and where she gets fingered!

Maybe they can add Che to Gilded Age as a spicy Spanish countess preying on middled aged spinsters!

Hopefully Miranda's marooneda in LA with her new love.

The guy playing Oscar has an old face.

This series suffers from many of the same faults as Downton. The storylines are strangely uneven, with big build-ups and then they just die. There are far too many characters fighting for their moment in the sun, and it means that the storylines have little emotional impact. 10 episodes of Marian and Raikes growing closer to elopement, and then it’s over in less than 5 minutes and there is no great drama to it, just an auntie who has a story to tell.

Fortunately, the series also has many of the same assets as Downton. It looks exquisite, the costumes are really beautiful, and Fellowes is good at creating interesting or amusing characters. The butlers should have their own show. And I really want Bertha and Agnes to form a double act next season. They are by far the two strongest characters and I want them as allies or enemies. It has taken a full season to get them nodding at each other, so I may be disappointed.

It’s interesting that the key to Bertha’s social acceptance is Gladys’s talent for friendship. Poor Gladys is always the pawn though, and will be sacrificed to Bertha’s ambitions. Bertha doesn’t recognise it, but her single-minded pursuit of her own agenda is not going to end well for her daughter. There was something rather chilling about George declaring that Bertha was the belle of the ball at Gladys’s party. The elder Russell’s are too caught up in each other to even consider their children as individuals.

Just as in Downton, the women are the interesting characters here. Even though the focus should perhaps be on the younger characters, Baranski and Coons in particular steal the show. They are both wonderful, even though Baranski has very little to do. She needs better writing and more to do, especially if she is on screen so rarely.

Coons really seems to be holding the series together though, despite the fact that her characterisation has been uneven. For the first few episodes, she was ice cold and almost psychopathic. But in the latter half of the season, she was given a lot more funny situations and lines and she plays the humour so lightly. It’s delightful to watch those moments when she is charming (like her last conversation with Mrs Astor at the ball) or caught slightly off guard, as when George rehires the non-French chef.

I’m in for the next season, even though I do wish Oscar wasn’t being played by a senior citizen.

The necklaces that many ladies had on were absolutely stunning. My god! The diamonds!

I didn’t care for Marian’s dress. It was too plain. She’s worn better just sitting at home.

Christine must like purple very much. The dress Bertha wore to the Academy (the red one) I thought was better than this Dalmatian dress she wore.

It was a great episode. It was fun to see all these people dressed up and dancing.

The scene between Bertha and Mrs Astor was fantastic. It was a question of who would blink first. It was great.

I saw George put his hand on Larry’s thigh and immediately thought of DL. 😛

Aurora is one of the best dressed. She’s always in lovely shades of blue. Her ball gown and necklace were amazing.

The show is a feast for the eyes for sure.

The manservant is totally the girls’ father.

Uncle Julian is good at "creating" cardboard characters he's stolen from other established stories or real life.

He's never created an intersting, believable, well rounded original character in his life.

Or, plot.

[quote]The necklaces that many ladies had on were absolutely stunning. My god! The diamonds!

Aurora Fane's opera diamonds were out of control. It was such a show I thought: they have [italic]that[/italic] much money? That was Bertharaptor territory.

Question... when at the table Bertha snapped: You will not use the word can't with me!

Was that an I am Bertha, hear me roar and as God as my witness I'll never be turned down again or was she telling Larry not to talk that way to his mother.

I loved Larry's reaction, he looked like a very sorry puppy.

[quote]The storylines are strangely uneven, with big build-ups and then they just die. There are far too many characters fighting for their moment in the sun, and it means that the storylines have little emotional impact. 10 episodes of Marian and Raikes growing closer to elopement, and then it’s over in less than 5 minutes and there is no great drama to it

THAT'S IT!!! Thanks, R447!!!

There have been so many opportunities for greatness but it all falls short because of the uneven and terrible writing.

[quote]Mrs. Astor was born in 1830. Alva Vanderbilt was born in 1853, she didn't marry Mr. Vanderbilt until 1875.

Bertha Russell is not supposed to be exactly Alva Vanderbilt under a different name: she is clearly supposed to be largely inspired by Alva Vanderbilt, but they are very different (for example Alva had four children, not just two, and her husband William K. Vanderbilt did not work much at the office and spent most of his time on his yacht, and inherited his fortune rather than earned it).

Bertha is clearly supposed to be older than Alva was in 1882. This story takes place in 1882, when Alva Vanderbilt was only 29; but Bertha has a son who has just finished Harvard, which means she has to be 38 or 39 at the absolute youngest, so Bertha must have been born at least 1844 or 1845 at the earliest.

The Russel's son seems very gay

R454, I do hope so. I feel sure that he and I are destined to marry.

The actor playing the Russell's son is cute, but he does not have the gravitas to play a convincing romantic lead opposite Marian.

In general, the casting for this show has been a huge disappointment.

I'm liking the interactions between Oscar, John Adams, and Gladys. Isn't it obvious why so many femmes fall for gay men both in film and real life? Their attentiveness, grooming standards, fashion sense, and the gift of gab are just too enticing for a silly girl like Gladys to ignore. They don't tend to scratch their balls, fart, argue or swear whether at the opera or on a badminton court I'm finding all of the snide goings-on between these two fancypants a fun watch. Poor Gladys, should she end up with either of these two snakes in satin panties.

[quote]And, I feel sorry for Peggy...apparently her plot next season is to go searching for her son with Mama Audra in tow. Not really a fun storyline.

Agree, cut the cord, sweetie darling, and get back to that newspaper and muckraking and whatever the hell with Clara Barton, and really anything but this NOT WITHOUT MY CHILD shit.

Or if you must, just send Mama Audra out there. Nothing going on with her at home, and she needs a hobby.

[quote]They don't tend to scratch their balls, fart, argue or swear whether at the opera or on a badminton court

What opera do you attend exactly?

That one with the singing fat lady on the show. That was at the old opera house that will eventually be replaced with a larger, finer one, financed by Russells/Vanderbilts.

[quote]The Russel's son seems very gay

Well, he wants to be an architect...

Here would be a REAL twist! Oscar fails to woo Gladys and her money. But, John Adams will be successful in wooing Larry and his money!

[quote]That one with the singing fat lady on the show. That was at the old opera house that will eventually be replaced with a larger, finer one, financed by Russells/Vanderbilts.

And so, DLr's... What was the name of the opera and/or aria being performed????

r461

I was thinking that Oscar gets Gladys but then has an affair with her brother

Does anyone know the music for the quadrille or the first waltz?

r330 It makes sense if Raikes really did love Marian.

He fell in love with her but his ambitions won out over his love. What good is love when you are spending years busting your ass to get enough money to live the life you want to live when the right marriage can get it for you immediately? He can learn to love his rich wife or find some slut to be infatuated with on the side.

Now that the gilded world has been set up it will be interesting to see what they do next season.

I'm available for sidepiece r465. Hey, remember me? Where the hell am I in all this now?

[quote]The newspaper publisher is a real-life person, T. Thomas Fortune, so that romance can;t go very far--we know what happens to him in real life (he never marries--may well have been gay).

They had gay people back then?

I was surprised that Turner didn’t show back up in some way. I can definitely see her making an appearance in the second season. Her storyline feels unresolved.

r409 Peggy was not an unwed mother. She was married to a man her father felt was beneath her, so he stole her baby and said it was dead and had the marriage annulled.

If she gets her kid back she will be a divorced mother which is still a scandal in that time period.

From what many of you have commented, it sounds like Bertha won't be meddling in Larry's love life and who he chooses as a mate which doesn't make sense. Larry is the heir and will carry on the family name, doesn't that garner as much need for careful selection of a mate as Gladys?

Has Marian already come out to society? She wears her hair as if she has.

Larry’s mate is entirely irrelevant, as he will have the cash.

It was quite clear, in the last episode, that he is going to be part of the next generation who pull down the great houses and start putting up the modern New York buildings which replaced them. I suspect the next generation of Russells will be leaving the railroad business and start building high-rise buildings.

[quote] Or if you must, just send Mama Audra out there. Nothing going on with her at home, and she needs a hobby.

She seemed like she was a piano teacher, those students are going to miss their scales if she’s trailing around in philly looking for random black kids

[quote] Has Marian already come out to society? She wears her hair as if she has.

She has, but what ever Doylestown could call a “Society”

The whole Raikes thing was a joke. Why did he promise to marry Streep Jr, and not show up just days later? It didn't dawn on him he could marry money in all the months he was hanging with the swells? FAIL and wasted opportunity for good drama

I only hope it turns out those railroad stocks are worth millions- and he's stuck in a shitty marriage, while Streep Jr. married prime and rich dick.

Was there maybe supposed to be ten episodes and it was cut at the last minute filming and they had to squeeze everything in to nine and that’s why things like the failed elopement was cut short? And the Peggy and mom scene leave for Philadelphia seemed rushed too.

R477 No. It's just Uncle Julian's usual terrible scripting.

He really is bad at scripts.

Which raises the question, "what did he bring to Gosford Park?"

Because I can't believe that he wrote ONE brilliant script and then it all went to shit.

Obviously, and not surprisingly, it just proves that Altman was ALWAYS the only auteur of an Altman film. He used scripts as rather loose frameworks to create the work in camera and on set with the actors.

NOTHING Uncle Julian has done since then has been any good.

No...not even your precious fucking Downtown Abbey.

Which was dreck.

I think they wanted to keep it short and sweet in case it didn't find an audience in the US. Americans aren't used to watching period piece television. Just think of the comments in this thread, many people aren't keeping the time period in mind with their expectations of story, too many want Dynasty level drama and camp. We can tolerate watching period British society accepting the way stories need to unfold based on time period but we can't seem to manage it for our own country.

[quote]The whole Raikes thing was a joke. Why did he promise to marry Streep Jr, and not show up just days later? It didn't dawn on him he could marry money in all the months he was hanging with the swells? FAIL and wasted opportunity for good drama

I just re-watched it. It is infuriating how badly it is written. "Can we part as friends?" ???? And, I mean ????. You persuade the girl to elope and the hour that you're to meet her you're trying to write a letter and you want to part as friends? Mmph...

Once again, keep time period in mind.

I also thought there were supposed to be ten episodes, but is it possible that it was trimmed down to nine when they learned that they had gotten picked up for a second season? Maybe they held back some story lines to make sure they could execute them in the second season.

In the end I thought this season was good but not great. That said, I will be back for more and I am hopeful that the second season will improve now that they don't have to put the production through COVID protocols.

Am I the only one that felt the movie "Jezebel" in the final ball scene? The ghosts of Bette Davis and Henry Fonda overshadows!

[quote]I think they wanted to keep it short and sweet in case it didn't find an audience in the US. Americans aren't used to watching period piece television. Just think of the comments in this thread, many people aren't keeping the time period in mind with their expectations of story, too many want Dynasty level drama and camp.

Well, we most certainly got the camp!

The song sung at the concert--not an opera--was "Vaga luna che inargenti," and it's very beautiful. It's by Bellini. Here it is sung by Pavarotti.

R357 You requested what the painting was to the left of the Degas in Mrs. Chamberlain’s house. It is a Camille Corot called the Curious Little Girl and is in the collection of The Met Museum. I studied Art History and it was pretty clear to me it was a Corot. As I had picked out a painting by Stuart in Raike’s office in the opening episode and it’s in the National Gallery of Art as well as Degas’ Little Dancer sculpture, I thought maybe they had cleared all the reproduction art through there, but none of the Corots matched.

So starting with the Degas painting since the painter was definitely known and it was easier to find I located it in the Met collection, and then checked there Corots and there it was. They were not donated by the same families. At this time the Corot was still owned by a friend of his who he gifted it to. It did not enter the United States until 1965.

Here’s the Degas painting for those interested.

sorry, but what about the time period makes Raikes' storyline more believable? That in the 1880s any nothing lawyer could come from nowhere, immediately get accepted into New York high society, lead on his little client from back in the hinterlands and then suddenly realize that hey, there's actual rich girls here, and I could marry one. Never thoughta that before. Sorry Marian.

Actually, one thing about that time period: breach of promise. Nobody gives a shit these days, but it was actually a big deal. He didn't just act badly, he acted illegally by stringing somebody along and then not going through with a marriage, which might be a bit of a problem for a young lawyer with very tenuous connections in the big bad city.

Can any learned bibliophile recommend any books dealing with this period of American social history? The series has whetted my appetite to learn more.

[quote]And the Peggy and mom scene leave for Philadelphia seemed rushed too.

I actually thought that was done well. I tell ya what was a disgrace though... The scene where "the actress" mentioned in the posting by R75 was in such shock over her father's deceit, and the relief in now knowing that her son is alive, as she cried to her mother... but, wait... Oh! not a tear dropped from eyes nor did they even moisten. They really should have gotten the Visine out to help the girl.

You may be looking for nonfiction, and there are no doubt good ones, but seriously r489, Edith Wharton novels are probably the best introduction to the world of this series.

OH! THANK YOU, R486! This is why I love Datalounge!

R492 You’re welcome, it’s always good to know my undergrad degree didn’t go to waste, even on artists that I wasn’t particularly interested in. For her to be that shocking person she is made out to be, it would have made more sense for her to have had a Courbet at this time, and there are plenty of them in the Met collection. The Corot would have been a very safe choice.

r488 Good point and perhaps that is why he was hoping she'd be friends.

Marian would have to want to pursue legal action and to do that she'd have to embarrass herself. She also has no money to fight him in court.

Any chance that next season will focus more on the men instead of all the society bullshit?

I kinda doubt that r495. I mean, it may focus on the men somewhat, but it's basically a drawing room, high society soap opera. It would be interesting if they actually got into the robber barons and what they really did, and all the actual issues going on in the country, but I would be very surprised if Julian Fellowes is the guy to do that, ever.

"Can any learned bibliophile recommend any books dealing with this period of American social history? The series has whetted my appetite to learn more."

I liked this one a lot

What I would like to see them do next season:

*I am certain now that the Russells are in high society we will move to the plot of trying to marry Gladys off to the European aristocracy; I am also certain we will see more of Oscar trying more energetically to woo Gladys. It would be nice to see more of Taissa Farmiga since I think she's a decent actress, and now she can wear her up like Marian (since she's made her debut) she will look much better.

*While I will be very curious to see Gilded Age Philadelphia next season, I hope the quest to find Peggy's baby is not endless. I would like to see much more more of the Black upper-class society in Fort Greene next season, and much more of the elder Scotts (since they're both terrific actors).

*No more servants harboring deep dark secrets. I honestly wouldn't mind servant storylines if Julian Fellowes had the slightest idea about how the lower classes behave, but he always makes them seem like children (or mentally challenged), and the only way he seems to be able to make them interesting (to himself) if to have them harbor secrets. Don't bring back Turner, and have Armstrong die off from diphtheria or cholera. I am tired of evil scheming maids on Julian Fellowes shows.

*There's no way they will get rid of Louisa Jacobson, so I'd like to see them marry her off to Larry so we can focus more on her married life. That would bring Agnes out of her house more and make her interact with the Russells, which would make her much more interesting. I think if we could see Marian fight more with Bertha she would be a much more palatable character: as almost everyone has noted, Jacobson is a much better actress when she can be unhappy (like in the season finale) than when she's being upbeat.

*Now that Bertha's accepted in high society we should also see more of interacting with Mrs. Astor and Mrs. Fish, and as everyone has noted, they're the most fun.

*I'd as soon see them jettison poor Jeanne Tripplehorn because there seems to be nowhere for her character to go. Have her character move to Chicago to join her son and write her out of the show.

*Cynthia Nixon is a terrific actress, so I'd like to see her do more than simper. Ada does not have to have a romantic interest to be an interesting character. Have her character get involved in the women's suffrage movement, or the temperance movement. Give her something to do outside of the house.

Child Abuse!

R498... agree re Tripplehorn. No one will talk to her. I wonder if she was purely a device to facilitate Marian's story and they fattened the part slightly when they got JT to play it.

[quote]*There's no way they will get rid of Louisa Jacobson, so I'd like to see them marry her off to Larry so we can focus more on her married life. That would bring Agnes out of her house more and make her interact with the Russells, which would make her much more interesting. I think if we could see Marian fight more with Bertha she would be a much more palatable character: as almost everyone has noted, Jacobson is a much better actress when she can be unhappy (like in the season finale) than when she's being upbeat.

Only unhappy marriages are interesting in this kind of show. They already blew it with Raikes, cause the usual Julian panic about actual bad people, but all is not lost. They could still saddle Marian with a bad marriage, or actually they could give her an interesting cause, and yes, something that leads to fighting with Bertha would really help both of them. I agree.

They were getting somewhere with Peggy, but again panic, retreat to frau heaven, this time give her a kid to obsess about the way they once gave Lady Edith a marriage to obsess about. But the possibility is always there: to do something with a female character that doesn't revolve around some frauish storyline. They have the worst time with that on shows like this, but the possibilities still exist for something, anything that isn't about marriage or children.

I doubt that Peggy's child will live long. If she found her child, lived happily for a while, then lost her child to an accident or illness, it would give her something to write about and keep the story moving. Peggy sitting at home and raising a child is boring television.

Lady Edith had to give up her child to one of the local farmers before reclaiming her, but the story worked out because Lady Edith didn't have to actually raise Marigold; she could visit her in the nursery for ten minutes and then hand off the tyke to a coterie of nannies.

[quote] Can any learned bibliophile recommend any books dealing with this period of American social history? The series has whetted my appetite to learn more.

Edith Wharton would be the best, since she grew up in this world and moved as an insider. The novel that deals with the material closest to this period is "The Age of Innocence" (1921) which takes place in the 1870s; her other two NYC high society novels are "The House of Mirth" (1905, and which takes place @1900) and "The Custom of the Country" (1913, and which takes place @1910).

Henry James also deals with this society in many of his novels. His earlier books are much easier to read than his later novels, which are in a high modernist style with interminably long sentences. "Daisy Miller" (1878) is a fine short introduction to his writing, and involves an American heiress in Italy; "Washington Square" from 1880 is one of my favorites among his novels, and is fairly short and deals with an old money heiress courted by a fortune hunter. "The Portrait of a Lady" (1881) is one of his masterpieces about another American heiress, who lives first in Albany but then makes a disastrous marriage in Rome. His later novels are even greater but they are much harder to read and are mostly set in Europe and feature mostly English characters rather than American ones .

William Dean Howells is not as superb a writer as Wharton or James, but he's much easier to read than James, and he has some good novels about the very wealthy during the Gilded Age. My favorite is "Indian Summer" (1886) about wealthy Americans living outside Florence, but I can also recommend both "The Rise of Silas Lapham" (1885) about a self-made millionaire who tries to break into Boston high society .

Of course the era itself received its name from one of Mark Twain's lesser-known novels "The Gilded Age," (1873) co-written by Charles Dudley Warner. it's not one of Twain's better novels, though, but you can see what the major concerns were in it.

"The Education of Henry Adams" (1919) is one of the best non-fiction books of the period. Adams was of the same real-life famous American family as the gay character John Adams on the TV show, and was a descendant of US presidents John Adams and John Quincy Adams, and is a fascinating account of life among the privileged between the Civil War and WWII. He also published an interesting and readable novel of Washington DC society anonymously in 1880 called 'Democracy" that is still in print and very much reading.

Gore Vidal's "1876" (published in 1876) concerns this era, and features Ward McAllister and several other historical personages from this period, including Mark Twain, Roscoe Conklin, James Garfield, etc. The central fictional characters are from the Old Knickerbocker society's real-life extended Schuyler family. It's not nearly as good as his novel "Lincoln" (the best of his historical novels), and I found it pretty tedious despite my interest in this period.

I recently read Arthur T. Vanderbilt's biography of his famous family "Fortune's Children," and though it's pretty slight it will give you a fun run-down of his family's most famous figures, from Cornelius "The Commodore" Vanderbilt I, who made the family's fortune, through his eldest son William Henry Vanderbilt, who made even more money and split the fortune among his sons: William K. (who married Alva and fathered among others Consuelo--who became Duchess of Marlborough--, and built Marble House), Cornelius II (who built the Breakers and fathered among others Gertrude--who founded the Whitney Museum--and Reginald, the father of Gloria Vanderbilt and grandfather of Anderson Cooper), and Frederick, who built Biltmore House in North Carolina which almost totally drained his fortune by the time he died.

Soaps always have to have a baby, it seems, so they gave it to Peggy because everyone else is either supposed to be a virgin or post-menopausal---because she didn't have a clear backstory at the outset, she got stuck with it. I'd rather see her as the proto-Ida B Wells.

The Streeplet was a bit better with heartbreak. The coupling with Larry seems to obvious but might be where her story goes---it will turn out to be devoid of conflict or anything that would make it interesting. Gladys probably will spurn Oscar's advances and show that she's as a big a bitch as her mother. The Oscar--John Adams story will drag because Uncle Julian doesn't know how to do anything with it.

The Chamberlain woman seems to have no function but the sit at home and be spurned among her art collection. I hope we see less of her and more of Mrs. Fish and Mrs. Astor. They should bring back Mrs. Morris doing something deranged, but I'd guess that Julian has forgotten about her already.

Ada seems like she'll go back to being an idiot until the next finale. Like Edith on Downton, I don't think she's worth the effort.

Nathan Lane seemed barely able to dance. I could do without more of him and his dispetic beard, I mean wife.

Started watching Belgravia.

That is all.

I want to echo a lot of things said:

The show has so many problems we've played out and yet it's so watchable and enjoyable. I am already missing it.

Carrie Coon is clearly a wonderful actress, but wow was that an uneven performance. She definitely got better and gave us something when she got to do more comedic elements later in the season.

They really started writing to Cynthia Nixon's strengths in the second half. She was extraordinary in the finale.

Kelli O'Hara is the MVP of the season. Her Aurora was always much more interesting than that character needed to be, and by the end of the season, she was really the glue of the most interesting stories.

They really need to minimize the Streeplet next season. She's so mediocre and I shouldn't have to watch her learn on the job with such fascinating and accomplished actors around her.

[quote]From what many of you have commented, it sounds like Bertha won't be meddling in Larry's love life and who he chooses as a mate which doesn't make sense. Larry is the heir and will carry on the family name, doesn't that garner as much need for careful selection of a mate as Gladys?

Gladys will change her name when she marries, and it would be far more prestigious for Bertha to be the mother of the Duchess of X or the Marchioness of Y than the mother of Mrs. Archie Baldwin, even if his family is prestigious in NY society terms.

But Larry will not change his name when he marries: he will still be Lawrence Russell, and his wife will be mrs. lawrence Russell. So Larry can easily marry someone from NY society. (Alva Vanderbilt did not carry who her sons married so long as they were from respectable wealthy families, but only a Duke would do for her daughter Conseulo, who was named after Alva's close friend Consuelo Yznaga, a Cuban-American heiress who married the Duke of Manchester, and who established an aspirational model for Alva to shoot for regarding her daughter.).

Marian might be perfect for Larry in Bertha's eyes. She is of the proper descent, and although she brings no money to the marriage Larry would be expected to inherit most of the family fortune anyway. Bertha and George also like Marian and are indebted to her.

I find it hard to believe a Gilded Age party would last until past sun up.

[quote] I find it hard to believe a Gilded Age party would last until past sun up.

You wouldn't if you had heard Mrs,. Astor shout out, "ORGY!", but they tastefully omitted it.

Hopefully next season we will see Mr. Raikes…in a jockstrap.

Someone up higher said they wanted to see the men have a bigger presence in Season 2...

Why?

Uncle Julian doesn't really do men very well. He doesn't do women well but at least he knows his female soap opera archetypes.

And, the male characters on this show are even flimsier drawn than the women and most of the performances are quite wooden, even our beloved studmuffin Morgan Spector.

Thank you R485, beautiful.

Moron that posted about the balls lasting past sunup! That was the norm, with a breakfast.

I've been to several (1990s, not 1890s) and they can be much more elaborate than a wedding. I only imagine back in that time when the equivalent of millions was spent.

The Marian and Mr. Raikes storyline would've made more sense if Marian was the one who is more invested in the relationship. Raikes only using her to get his foot in high society and then basically ghosting her afterwards and Marian pushing for elopement, fearing he's slipping through her fingers. Him stringing her along and proclaiming to be in love with her when she doesn't have any money doesn't make sense for someone as ambitious as Raikes. Even if he felt something for Marian, he would've used Agnes' disapproval of him as an excuse to end their relationship (letting her down easy by insisting that he doesn't want to cause her emotional distress over the conflict between her and her aunt), so he could pursue someone with money.

The way the story unfolds in the show is very Frau romance, with the male character acting on feelings and emotions instead of stone-cold ambition.

R453, I was responding to a poster that was asking about the relationship between the real Mrs. Astor and Alva Vanderbilt. There is a lot of history being thrown about in here, which is often more interesting than the shows actually storylines.

[quote]There is a lot of history being thrown about in here, which is often more interesting than the shows actually storylines.

I agree!

[quote]Edith Wharton would be the best, since she grew up in this world and moved as an insider.

as a contrast one should read Mark Twain, and not " tom sawyer" - he detested the society types and wrote viciously about them in his nonfiction

[quote]I find it hard to believe a Gilded Age party would last until past sun up.

I think that was usual. I'm think they talked about breakfasts for guests on Downton and I'm sure I recall a similar reference in Gone with the Wind (book) to parties ending at or after dawn. Now I think of it there was one in the Thorn Birds, too, although in that they had to come for miles and miles to attend.

Isn't it nice for an actor like Kelli O'Hara, who has a successful, respectable career but isn't a major figure, to have the opportunity to take a small part and knock in out of the park? I love stories like that. I am glad the theatre actors got a chance to fill the ranks. It was easier to get into the show when you don't see twenty familiar face waltzing by. It's why I prefer a lot of international content on Netflix. You have no clue who anybody is most of the time, it's just about the story.

[quote]I still don't think Fellowes has the stones to put Gladys through the wringer with a gay husband and a miserable marriage but do think he'll take her to the verge of it.

Maybe Gladys is the new Edith (well, the old Edith, reconstituted.) He seems to be taking some characters and inverting them. Agnes is Violet, tart tongued but more sensitive. The multi-accented cook is Mrs. Patmore, but kindly. Daisy is the Oirish girl, but not thick. Bertha is Mary, secured financially but pushing in, not entitled (that may be a stretch.) George is Robert, kindly but ruthless instead of kindly and, let's just say it, prone to buggering everything up because he's a bit stupid about money. Larry is kind of Matthew - nice.

So maybe Gladys, to her mother's eternal frustration and attention, becomes hard to match with anybody. He does like the girl who can't find love. (Although maybe that's Streeplet's job.) You have to figure next year is preoccupied with Oscar's pursuit and saving Gladys from it. The problem with marrying her to Duke or a Count is she leaves the country, which obviously they could do. Fellowes pattern seems to be to move slowly through time, so it's still about 1882/83?

gladys and Marian need to do the deed like horny sapphic trollops

r508, according to that VF article, posted upthread:

"The ball did not begin until 11 p.m.—after the opera, as per custom. But people were abuzz beforehand. “As early as 7 o’clock last evening…gentlemen returning from the hair-dressers’ with profusely powdered heads were to be seen alighting from coupés along Fifth Avenue,” wrote the Times. Such a large crowd gathered outside Petit Chateau to see the arrivals that police were called to patrol spectators. (Some ladies were accompanied by their maids to Petit Chateau, but the maids were not allowed to leave their carriages.)...

Dinner was not served until 2 a.m., and guests did not leave until daybreak. Per the Met, “The timing indicates that the majority of partakers was not required to report to jobs in the morning.”

clearly that hussy marian wasn't going out to "work"

Why did Mr. Morris go bankrupt? Wasn’t Russell buying back shares in order to stop a run in his company? As a shareholder, wouldn’t Morris benefit?

So, the takeaway is- Season One was all set-up for Season 2.

However, S1 gave Kelli O'Hara a chance to show off her acting chops. I think she'll be booking a lot more work in the future. It gave us Claybourne Elder as a thirst trap, which he always was anyway. It proved not all Streeps are talented. Nathan should NEVER do a Southern accent. It also proved no one in scenic or lighting design did their homework on which way the sun shines in the morning on East 61st Street and 5th Avenue. And, Season 2 needs to air on Sunday nights, in the old Sopranos timeslot.

R524... he seems to have done two things... he bought on margin, meaning a good chunk of his money was borrowed for the purchase. (Remember these guys bought massive positions because they had inside info on what was going to happen.

Second, he (seems to have) shorted the stock... meaning he bought it in the expectation the price would decline. There's a whole bunch of technical malarky that accompanies what happens but the long and short of it is because Russell drove the price up, Morris lost his money, including money he borrowed.

Voila, financial ruin.

[quote]It also proved no one in scenic or lighting design did their homework on which way the sun shines in the morning on East 61st Street and 5th Avenue.

I tell ya... You can't beat DataLounge. You just simply can't.

One other observation to R525: there never seems to be a winter or fall season during this Gilded Age, but spring can pass for summer if you squint.

[quote]Him stringing her along and proclaiming to be in love with her when she doesn't have any money doesn't make sense for someone as ambitious as Raikes.

That was so badly written. It only made sense if she secretly had money he knew about.

And the whole "I'll just stay at work when I'm supposed to be meeting with you to elope and see if you notice" BS was ridiculous.

Sloppy, lazy writing that wasn't helped by an actress who can't do subtext even if there were any.

R508, see, this is the kind of thing that sticklers know and get criticized here for caring about. It was absolutely how society balls went. If you know, you know, and if you don't, you can be proud of "not caring about trivia, it's just a TV show, for god's sake," or be left scratching your head on the few occasions when they do get it right but it doesn't jibe with your modern sensibilities.

This is not a personal attack, BTW. I'm just using your comment to make a point.

I've never had an issue with the sticklers knowing, it's pomposity of how they impart their knowledge. God gave Moses the ten commandments with less haughtiness.

Which is to say the act of sharing knowledge should be a gift given humbly, not a compensation for something lacking.

Faces are slapped with impunity

R524 I asked this question back in the first thread.

A kind poster explained that Mr. Morris was buying short or on margin - so he never had the stock to begin with. When the time came for him to produce the shares, he didn't have them AND he didn't have the money to buy shares at the current price to cover his margin.

Or something like that - I'm sure someone can explain it better than I....maybe Mr. Raikes

It was also posted that Mr. Morris' being asked to beg on his knees was something Commodore Vanderbilt did to someone - with the same result. But no one posted a link, so I don't know.

Kindness is regularly punished on the DL

Wait, I just thought of something! Do we even know if Peggy’s husband was Black? Might he have been White and the child is biracial and that’s why her father has been so terrible in all of this?

Wouldn’t they have at least hinted at something like that though, R536? Or am I expecting too much of Aunt Julian?

Random thought I had today: Was Peggy born free?

Marian, Mr. Raikes and Peggy storylines were the most boring of the show. I like Peggy but give her something to do. The other two need to be dropped from the show.

I think it's virtually impossible for Peggy's husband to have been anything but black. He worked for Peggy's father in the pharmacy, and mixed marriages were illegal.

Casting has put out a posting on Instagram for an African-American child (male) between 15 months and 2 years old for a photo shoot.

R537, I have been asking the question. Given the time period, I think we are being led to believe that Peggy is in her late teens or early twenties. The time of the show is 1882, so this means she was born around the start of the Civil War.

It's not clear where she was raised, but I would have to believe that she was raised as free. I think they said that one of her parents was born into slavery, the other was born free. It would make sense that both parents were free when she was born.

But we are led to believe that she lived with her parents in Brooklyn. At the same time, in episode one, she says to Marian, "You're a New Yorker now ... we both are ... and for a New Yorker, anything is possible." So did she not grow up in Brooklyn? Or did she not consider herself a New Yorker because she did not live in Manhattan? Or did she just say that to make Marian feel better?

By the way, the Brooklyn Bridge was under construction in 1882, and it opened up to traffic in 1883.

[quote]Wait, I just thought of something! Do we even know if Peggy’s husband was Black? Might he have been White and the child is biracial and that’s why her father has been so terrible in all of this?

I. Smell. RACISM in the above comment!!! What? The story wouldn't be credible or interesting enough for you if it was a nice Black boy but whose only crime is that he comes from the wrong side of the tracks? We have to do this Romeo & Juliet scenario? It will take Peggy being involved with a WHITE man that will give the storyline interest and credibility for you???

Take it down a notch, R542.

[quote]Random thought I had today: Was Peggy born free?

OH, no you didn't... Nuh-uh... you didn't do that....

Didn’t do what, R544? It’s a totally fair question. It’s 1882 in the show currently and Peggy is at least in her early twenties. Do the math, honey.

Fellowes is a pretty linear writer and definitely a lazy one. It seems to me it is most likely Peggy married a black man.

FWIW I think the question was far-fetched (along the lines of stolen railroad stocks) but I don't think it was racist or even smelled of it.

Okay... The Civil War ended in 1865. April 9. 1865 to be exact. The anniversary date is forthcoming.

Peggy is educated. She was educated in Philadelphia at The Institute for Colored Youth, (I believe) which was founded in 1837 Her daddy is a pharmacist and owns his own pharmacy. Her mammy teaches the piano. The family hires servants. The family owns and lives in a brownstone in Brooklyn which was probably, in what is known today as Crown Heights, but was known then as Weeksville. Weeksville; a self-supporting community of African American Freedman, which grew to become the second-largest free black community in Antebellum America. By 1855, over 520 free African Americans lived in Weeksville, including some of the leading activists in the Abolitionist and Equal Suffrage movements.

Now, you tell me... honey... how are you getting "slavery" out of all of that? I did not hear any sort of southern twang emanating from the mouth of anyone of the three. Nor, did I note that someone asked for and/or drank mint juleps.

BTW...

Help the cause latte... whatevers...

True r517. I think Twain actually invented the term Gilded Age. And of course is the co-author of The Gilded Age: A Tale of Today.

R539, for what it's worth, interracial marriages were not illegal in New York State or, for that matter, in a number of other Northern states.

OH! I guess I should point out that slavery had officially ended in New York in 1827. Weeksville was founded in 1838

FYI (from Wikipedia... it's quick)

Weeksville was named after James Weeks, an African-American stevedore[1] from Virginia. In 1838 (11 years after the final abolition of slavery in New York State)[2] Weeks bought a plot of land from Henry C. Thompson, a free African American and land investor, in the Ninth Ward of central Brooklyn. Thompson had acquired the land from Edward Copeland, a politically minded European American and Brooklyn grocer, in 1835.[3] Previously Copeland bought the land from an heir of John Lefferts, a member of one of the most prominent and land-holding families in Brooklyn.[4] There was ample opportunity for land acquisition during this time, as many prominent land-holding families sold off their properties during an intense era of land speculation.[3] Many African Americans saw land acquisition as their opportunity to gain economic and political freedom by building their own communities.[4] The NYC Parks website confuses[5] Weeks with a man of the same name who lived 1776-1863.[6]

The village itself was established by a group of African-American land investors and political activists, and covered an area in the borough's eastern Bedford Hills area, bounded by present-day Fulton Street, East New York Avenue, Ralph Avenue and Troy Avenue.[7] A 1906 article in the New York Age recalling the earlier period noted that James Weeks "owned a handsome dwelling at Schenectady and Atlantic Avenues."

By the 1850s, Weeksville had more than 500 residents from all over the East Coast (as well as two people born in Africa). Almost 40 percent of residents were southern-born. Nearly one-third of the men over 21 owned land; in antebellum New York, unlike in New England, non-white men had to own real property (to the value of $250) and pay taxes on it to qualify as voters.[8] The village had its own churches (including Bethel Tabernacle African Methodist Episcopal Church and the Berean Missionary Baptist Church), a school ("Colored School no. 2", now P.S. 243), a cemetery, and an old age home.[9] Weeksville had one of the first African-American newspapers, the Freedman's Torchlight, and in the 1860s became the national headquarters of the African Civilization Society and the Howard Colored Orphan Asylum. In addition, the Colored School was the first such school in the U.S. to integrate both its staff and its students.[10]

During the violent New York Draft Riots of 1863, the community served as a refuge for many African-Americans who fled from Manhattan.

After the completion of the Brooklyn Bridge and as New York City grew and expanded, Weeksville gradually became part of Crown Heights, and memory of the village was largely forgotten.

FYI...

[quote] I think Twain actually invented the term Gilded Age. And of course is the co-author of The Gilded Age: A Tale of Today.

He did; but as I posted above, it's not a very good novel.

Coon, Spector and Jacobson should be given an award for Worst Ensemble Acting in a Series Ever.

Coon is a one-note cactus. Spector is attractive and his acting style may work on stage but it comes across as nails on a chalkboard on TV. And Jacobson... well, she has to be adopted.

^ Most people would agree with you on Jacobson but not the others. I wouldn't be surprised if Coon is nominated for an Emmy

I think the cast is great overall. Love Baranski, Benton, the guys who play the butlers, Audra McDonald.....

I like Coon a lot, but come on, if she is nominated for an Emmy for this, there is something seriously wrong with Emmy nominations.

If Darren fucking Criss can win an Emmy....why would it be weird for Carrie Coon to just get nominated?

Sadly, I guess you have a point r557.

[quote]I like Coon a lot, but come on, if she is nominated for an Emmy for this, there is something seriously wrong with Emmy nominations.

On the other hand, the majority DL position on Coon's performance is not shared by all:

Variety: "Coon, wisely, plays Bertha as a series of emotions that are instantly recognizable and deliciously uncomplicated ... (a) big, bold, endlessly watchable performance."

Hollywood Reporter: "Coon, with cold, calculating eyes and a razor tongue, is the immediate standout."

San Francisco Chronicle: "Coon, a national treasure since “The Leftovers,” is the reason to watch “The Gilded Age”: Her performance bursts with passion, even if her character’s aims are shallow."

NPR: "Coon is one of the most reliably grounded actors working in television, and her presentation of Bertha as wounded and ruthless at the same time gives The Gilded Age an emotional center that it needs."

Rolling Stone: "...the only reason Bertha’s quest makes emotional sense at all is that Coon is one of the best actors alive. She instills her otherwise enigmatic character with a deep humanity that almost turns her into the underdog despite her family’s vast fortune and the ruthless ways in which George uses it."

Thanks r526, I understand now.

Emmy are a dime a dozen. I know people who have 5 Emmys in their home office. Everybody gets to have an Emmy in showbiz, so Emmys are not necessarily proof of anyone's talent. Have you noticed how many categories there are? Just so nobody will go to their casket disappointed.

[quote]Everybody gets to have an Emmy in showbiz

One would think.

I’m with those who don’t believe Coon will be nominated. And I think her performance in The Leftovers is one of the greatest ever in any medium.

They were not buying the stock on margin. If they had been, they would have profited when the price went up. They were selling shares borrowed from their brokers, expecting the price to fall, so that when they had to return the shares to their brokers, they would cost less than what they had sold them for. Sell high/buy low. This is called “going short.”

Brooklyn was a separate city at this time.

For me Coons is doing a passable job, what seems to be lacking is any teeth behind what she is portraying in the role. Powerful, imperious maven does not seem to be a place Carrie can come off natural and real. Compared to someone like Christine Baranski who easily takes on that uptight wealthy haughtiness with ease, Baranski knows how to bring that and make it real. I think Carrie has too much humanity in her close to the skin to be able to be 100% convincing as Bertha. Maybe being pregnant was making her hold back?

If Julian Fellows were to hand the reigns of the show over to another writer, a better writer, who do you think that should be?

Personally, I'd say someone like Steven Knight (Peaky Blinders) or Terence Winter (Boardwalk Empire).

Peaky Blinders? Boardwalk Empire? Those are COMPLETELY different shows. Just a completely different vibe from The Gilded Age

No kidding 568

I'm thinking about the plotting , story structure.

They aren't going to announce they are pulling his plug till KBJ is confirmed.

Boardwalk Empire was a hot mess

Video looks at historical figures that might have been the inspiration for the character Peggy Scott.

[quote]If Julian Fellows were to hand the reigns of the show over to another writer, a better writer, who do you think that should be?

Let's see what the High School English classes would come up with.

I can't believe the near universal raves Coons has received for her portrayal of Bertha. She seems like a fine actress, with a strong theatrical background, but she doesn't have nearly enough heft or gravitas to make the performance totally work. Interestingly, I think Jeanne Tripplehorn 15 years ago would've made a TERRIFIC Bertha. She has that calculating strength, but also has a sexy vampy-ness that Coons lacks. There's no sex appeal with Coons. Hell, Donna Murphy as Mrs. Astor is a sexier presence and they have her dolled up like some old bag.

Jacobson's acting is god awful. Of course, the scripts do her zero favors, but it's a very twee and affected. Downton Abbey didn't have the greatest scripts either, but the period accents and the sense of style (acting wise) that cast brought to their roles hid a LOT of sins. Because we don't have any real accents here to cushion the landing, Fellowes poor scripting is laid front and center.

I will say that Denee Benton is very good, as are Audra and John Douglas Thompson. There's something very grounded there (even if the scripts still stink!) Cynthia Nixon improved greatly as the season went on, but both her and Baranski are severely underwritten. It's not entirely clear what function in high society they serve. It's the biggest problem of the series. There IS an interesting backstory with her awful husband, but they've given her the Maggie Smith role (which in Downton was used sparingly for quips/barbs/buttons on scenes) but haven't thought to expand it beyond the quips.

I really enjoyed the series on the whole. It's a soap-y romp...but it really needs to dial up the stakes and storylines here. I agree with the above posters that Kelli O'Hara is one of the best things about it...really coming to life here in ways that she didn't always on stage!

[quote]I will say that Denee Benton is very good

Who?

On an unrelated note, I saw Kelli O'Hara on the street yesterday (we exchanged smiles), and she just looked radiant, almost like she reads the DL and knows we appreciate what she's doing.

They did buy on margin. There was a specific exchange when George pitched the idea to Morris where Morris said he didn't have that kind of money and George raised buying on margin through the broker.

Where Morris went rogue was the short. He shorted what he bought - in the certain knowledge the stock would fall once the alderman yanked the rug out from under Russell by cancelling his ability to build his station.

Somebody upthread said going looking for the lost child almost puts Peggy in a separate show - that may not be terribly interesting. We know how it ends. It's just how do they bring Peggy back into the orbit of the rest of the cast?

For me the much more interesting storyline would be who is Peggy's former husband and what type of man accepts money to abandon his wife and child. It's interesting how Peggy and Marian seem to be attracted to the same type of men. Then you have the dynamics of Audra McDonald and her husband. She coming to the realization of how ruthless and heartless her husband really is.

Has this theory been bandied about yet … Gladys will be the first heiress that the Crawley’s try to catch, but Bertha decides that Robert’s not good enough. Lots of hissing between Bertha and a young Violet. Then enter Cora at some swanky Newport ball.

Personally, I am totally bored in advance by the kid, the ex-husband, the father and mother and the whole Mama Mia dynamic, which will just end with the pain of meeting the kid, realizing the kid is actually fine and the whole Stella Dallas abandoning the kid again, or worse taking him back to New York and being just another annoying and tiresome mother.

I like Peggy at the newspaper, and I think the whole thing about being black middle class in New York in the late 1800s, and an independent black woman in an era even before the NAACP was formed, is infinitely more interesting than another kid-focused character on a Julian Fellows show. Do not care about another stupid plotline proving that MOTHERHOOD IS EVERYTHING. Don't care.

Ah, but let’s remember how fascinating dear Marigold was in Downton. We don’t want to miss that!

Carrie Coon revealed that she couldn't wear a corset because of her pregnancy, so that is one explanation as to why her outfits look odd-fitting. She also said she wore sneakers, most of the time, under her dresses. The other women were much more uncomfortable on set.

[quote]I like Peggy at the newspaper, and I think the whole thing about being black middle class in New York in the late 1800s, and an independent black woman in an era even before the NAACP was formed, is infinitely more interesting than another kid-focused character on a Julian Fellows show. Do not care about another stupid plotline proving that MOTHERHOOD IS EVERYTHING. Don't care.

Well, I would agree with the above. Since the Peggy character is based upon Ida B Wells I would find it far more interesting if she began writing articles about the lynching (just another word for murder) issue that was sweeping through the country at the time, and how her work comes back to plague Agnes and the whole Van Rhijn household. But, I guess it's a moot point since Peggy no longer works for Agnes.

[quote]For me the much more interesting storyline would be who is Peggy's former husband and what type of man accepts money to abandon his wife and child.

R579, I'm assuming he also was told the child had died, so he didn't abandon it. And I feel fairly sure that Peggy's father put her husband in the same position as Russell put the Baldwin boy in--an offer he couldn't refuse (carrot and stick, i.e., dire consequences if he refused). I don't imagine that a pharmacist would wield the same kind of power behind the threat as a railroad baron, but maybe in their sphere, it was equivalent.

Since this thread is about to end, I started a new thread.

R581 R584 Agree completely. Seeing the black middle class in Brooklyn and NYC of the period would be really interesting. The time the black newspaper editor placed his hand on Peggy's lower back... inappropriately. What would a Peggy-as-professional do in the black environment of the era? A black woman in an environment where there is a strong black patriarchy (I mean her dad, duh). All much, much more interesting than black Dickens' expected melodrama of looking for the lost child.

Attention people who keep referring to Lod Grantham of Downton Abbey: His name is Wobert...not Robert...

Whomever claimed upthread to being a friend of Clay and Eric Rosen, you should know they no longer divide their time between NYC and Kansas - Eric moved full-time to NY to be the primary caregiver to their son.

Mr. Raikes presents as straight, but his 2014 dating history says otherwise. LOL.

Diana Agron, and Lily Collins...

Lily was not a beard for anyone, trust me on that.

Nathan Lane just praised his dialect coach for McAllister! Hasn't that poor man suffered enough? Howard Samuelsohn was the same schmuck who literally fed lines right before the cameras rolled to Drew Barrymore as Little Edie in HBO's Grey Gardens.

Was anyone else distracted by how much Turner looks like Gladys? They could be mother and daughter.

For me that would be a push, R593. However, I do think that the actress portraying Gladys does look A LOT like Consuelo Vanderbilt of whom her character is based upon. But, pay no attention to me. I think (and always have thought) that Drew Barrymore is Bette Davis reincarnated.

This is probably appropriate and well-suited here at this juncture. If you have timer (30 min) this is well worth listening to! Who knew that Brooklyn holds the highest concentration of Black home ownership in the Western Hemisphere? I don't know if that's a good or bad thing?

Also.....

FYI:

[quote]Like a few of the posters from the other threads, I would fall asleep during every episode. However, the last 2 or 3 I’ve been able to make it through the whole thing without nodding off.

It's definitely gotten better as it's progressed, although I didn't hold out much hope based on the first couple of threads.

I think it's just funny how much criticism Coons gets r566, meanwhile Spector never sounds believable as a cut-throat titan of industry. He'd be better suited for a role as a lawyer than some tough as nails robber baron, especially in railroads of all industries. Ever time he has to sound tough, he sounds whiny and weak. He looks the part but can't get into the role. He's giving us Bobby Ewing, (Patrick Duffy) when we what we need is a mix of JR Ewing (Larry Hagman) and Blake Carrington (John Forsythe). No wonder his son is so soft.

No one ever thought that Bobby Ewing could have created a successful company like Ewing Oil. You could see it in Jock and JR. Similarly, I don't ever feel like Mr. Russell, as played by Morgan Spector, would hurt a fly. He doesn't strike an ounce of fear on the screen. Spector only meets the needs of the character when he's playing opposite Coons as husband or father, to a powerful woman. Without Coons to play off of, or mimic, Specter seems out of his depth.

Russell, as played by Specter would have been better off as a wealthy heir to a fortune created by his father out west. He crashed into NYC society at the request of Mrs. Russell, relocating the company headquarters. He finds that he can't keep the pace but tries as hard as he can to make NYC work. This story is not at all uncommon from the era. Especially as heirs to fortunes had time and the money to make a go for NYC society.

It's more a matter of Spector not being as flat or generally bad as Coon.

[quote]meanwhile Spector never sounds believable as a cut-throat titan of industry.

I agree. But, that's not him. At this point it's all about the writing. It's as if none of these people have ever been in C-level positions and/or dealt with terrible executives ie Rupert Murdoch, at any time during their career. This show needs to call in Richard and Esther Shapiro (real fast before either of them kicks the bucket) as consultants.

I tend to agree with R598. I like Spector and his character, but I don't buy him as a titan of industry -- and I certainly didn't get much menace from his threats to ruin his secretary's career prospects. But I think Coon is fantastic, so what do I know?

Spector's voice is too high to be a menace. He seems a little fey. I like him, but he lacks gravitas. Fellowes generally writes amiable, milquetoasty men and strong women. Richard the newspaper dude was an exception but he was in and out. His long running men could as easily do cross stitch all day too.

R601, I've come to the view Coon is fantastic too. I just think she lacked the experience to be able to cope with the lazy scripts. Baranski and even Nixon could figure that out and turned out performances that exceeded the page. Coon seemed to be getting there toward the end. Next season, I bet she owns the show. She is rich with watchability.