HBO's The Gilded Age, Thread 6

Link to the last thread.

OP - Thanks for starting the new thread and linking the old one. Proper DL etiquette is so important for the plebes.

Thank you, OP!

You're welcome, r2!

(And you too, r3!)

Why the hell is Michael Cerveris slumming in this thing? To appear very briefly in a few episodes. Does he need the money that badly?

I'm not sure having appeared in a few Broadway shows is highly lucrative, r6, and he's not exactly handsome. He's lucky to get the work, i would imagine.

Were not the Boston society girls and the Philadelphia society girls consider a "cut" beneath the NYC society girls on the social hierarchy?

Thank you for starting a new thread.

I'm now at the "I can't believe this dialogue" stage.

Thanks for the podcast link on the other thread. I could listen to Coon's voice all the time.

R11 I don’t know, she seems to be doing that Elizabeth Holmes voice deepening thing, but hell it’s 1,000 times better then vocal fry.

[quote] Were not the Boston society girls and the Philadelphia society girls consider a "cut" beneath the NYC society girls on the social hierarchy?

I've never read that before. Certainly Edith Jones of the old Knickerbocker aristocracy was not considered to have been marrying "down" when she married Teddy Wharton of Boston--he was considerably poorer than she was, but his family was so well-established among the Boston Brahmins that she was not seen as marrying down in any way. (By contrast, Edith Jones's mother put an end to Edith's courtship by Henry Stevens, whose father was a successful hotelier but was considered "new money.")

Moreover, as Wharton says in The Age of Innocence and The Custom of the Country, some of the old and most prestigious NY families had established branches in other East Coast cities, like Philadelphia and Baltimore.

I would like to thank OP for the new thread, R2 and R3 for taking the time to thank OP, and OP for being gracious enough to acknowledge their thanks. Behavior like this elevates us all.

More discussion of Mrs. Chamberlain's Degas figurine and paintings from the previous thread:

They would have been considered extremely risqué in the early 1880s, since basically ballerinas were considered little better than prostitutes in those days. (In some of the Degas paintings, you even see men backstage in top hats ogling the girls as prospective sexual targets.) It would be extremely unlikely Marian would admire them or even understand them, even if Mrs. Chamberlain appreciates them by this time.

R13 - Thanks for your insight.

An article on how the Paris Opera ballet was basically a meat market for wealthy men:

yeah, that was a real gaff

[QUOTE] yeah, that was a real gaff

Oh, dear.

I’m assuming most ballerinas were so thin that their menses would have stopped so many of them couldn’t get pregnant and that would have been another benefit.

they were skinny, but it was diagelev who promoted the waif thin 13 year old ballet dancer

Oscar reminds me of Snidely Whiplash .

From a gay man's perspective, I think Oscar and his boyfriend are being underutilized and Marian is getting entirely too much screen time. Show us more of the Gilded Age gay underworld!

I agree, R23. Oscar and John present a great opportunity to show us the gay underbelly of 1880s NYC (and there very much was one during that period). Fellowes only seems interested in using them as side characters.

I wonder if the Ramble was a hotspot during this era. So much good head in the 90's there.

According to wikipedia, r25, it was a hotspot for cruising starting in the early 20th century.

[quote] Since at least the early 20th century, the seclusion of the Ramble has been used by gay men for cruising. In the 1920s, the lawn at the north end was referred to as the "fruited plain", and in the 1950s and 1960s, the Ramble was feared by many as a haven for "anti-social persons". In the early 1960s, under Mayor Robert F. Wagner Jr., the Parks Department proposed building a senior center in the Ramble with the hope of curbing cruising and anti-gay assaults.

[quote] In 1980, an ad was placed in The Village Voice looking for gay men interested in playing soccer in the Ramble, giving rise to the New York Ramblers, among the world's first openly gay soccer clubs. Today, the Ramble's reputation for cruising has given way somewhat to nature walks and environmentalism. However, some in the gay community still consider the Ramble to be "ground zero for outdoor gay sex", enjoying the "retro feel" of sneaking off into the woods

I have to thank the very smart poster on the last thread who pointed out so many of the disappointing aspects and undeveloped story lines of the series.

And to the poster who replied with all the background info we, as the audience, supposedly know? Well, yes, but it's all been explained to us as exposition - none of it has been dramatized in any meaningful engaging manner.

And I'd also like to agree with the awful things the hair, makeup and costume designers are doing to Jeanne Tripplehorn. Poor actress looks like she's gained some weight in recent years and her dainty hairdo with those awful peasant bangs doesn't balance her girth. And her dresses are all so ugly and in awful colors like that beige satin number last night. Not flattering. Oh...and she needs more color in her makeup if her hair is going to be that dark.

I finally realized who Oscar reminds me of! I brought it up in the previous thread. Sol Star from "Deadwood."

Everyone criticizes Christine Baranski’s line reading but I think she’s doing exactly what she’s supposed to be doing. Not too warm or friendly and not too cold.

Episode 7 seemed incredibly long and and slow.

[quote]They would have been considered extremely risqué in the early 1880s, since basically ballerinas were considered little better than prostitutes in those days.

And, what about the ballerinos????

When I said in the previous thread that Agnes needed to be played by an actress of "stature" like Glenn Close or Gillian Anderson, I meant someone with a more commanding physical presence. Though both Close and Anderson are also FAR more talented and interesting than Baranski, whose Buffalo, NY working class roots come through clearly here.

[quote] Why the hell is Michael Cerveris slumming in this thing? To appear very briefly in a few episodes. Does he need the money that badly?

I don’t know for certain R6, but I’m sure he needs it quite baldly!

Last night I was singing (to the tune of "Alouette"):

Cun-ting butlers, cun-ting butlers

Watch them cunt! Watch them cunt!

Cunting at the china, cunting at the glassware

Cunt, cunt, cunt! Cunt, cunt, cunt!

[quote]I thought Mr. Russell was going to fuck his son when he put his hand on his shoulder in the dimly lit office. Now that would be a plot line.

I was hoping after the initial public confrontation Mr. Russell would get him home and give him a right hiding.

[quote]When I said in the previous thread that Agnes needed to be played by an actress of "stature" like Glenn Close or Gillian Anderson, I meant someone with a more commanding physical presence.

OMG! Imagine Close playing Agnes! She'd do Bertha justice too except she is too old now

Lol at Agnes thinking Ada was some virginal innocent and chaste nun who shouldn't even know words like "prostitute" or where babies come from.

Um, like bitch, do you not know what she probably does with Pumpkin and a jar of peanut butter each night in her room?

No wonder Pumpkin has been trying to escape from that household this whole time.

R6 I’m always wondering how the character maintained a shaved head during The Gilded Age

[quote]Though both Close and Anderson are also FAR more talented and interesting than Baranski, whose Buffalo, NY working class roots come through clearly here.

Yeah, but I have since researched it a bit. She has some creds. Her dearly departed husband comes from money. He hailed from the Drexel clan of which they will be introduced in episode 10.

Gillian Anderson is not more talented than Baranski. Or more interesting. Or more commanding.

Oh, dear R40, I heartily disagree.

Baranaski can be fun but her range is extremely limited. Every single character she plays is some variation of Maryanne Thorpe from CYBILL.

Anderson, on the other hand, has surprised me. Both her Margaret Thatcher in THE CROWN and her progressive mom in SEX EDUCATION have been unique, and very different than what she's done before. She's incredibly watchable and she would have made Agnes far less gargoyle cartoon than she is in Baranski's hands.

Anderson was a cartoon on the Crown. Way more than Baranski on this show. And she doesn't look old enough to be Cynthia Nixon's older sister. If Anderson is suited to any role on this show, it's Bertha not Agnes

The problem is Bertha lacks a clear opponent. Is it Agnes? Is it Mrs. Astor? We haven't even seen McAllister dishing with Mrs. Astor about her and that's supposed to be McAllister's power, isn't it? It can't be everybody - though it's written that way - because you can't beat the system unless the system allows it or collapses. The character lacks Mrs. Astor's apparent power but seems to embody her resistance - without really doing anything. Agnes as she's written would get a big whatever from Bertha. You'd laugh at her as that shut in kook across the street.

I am not a fan of Anderson's at all. She has the same somber, lemon-sucking expression in everything and gives the impression that she believes herself to be more effective than she is. I also find her English accent sounds fake, but I've been shouted down here about it before, so I accept that opinions differ.

Blake Ritson (Oscar) is 44. Glenn Close, in her mid-70s is the right age to play his mother.

[quote]The problem is Bertha lacks a clear opponent.

The problem with Bertha is that she lacks good writers. I agree that there simply is no focus. What is it that she wants? Alva Vanderbilt was not about self aggrandizement. Her efforts were done to promote the Vanderbilt name. I thought at a few points that George and Bertha were a team but then for her to be so much more concerned about nonsense rather than the business didn't make much sense to me. Is she only out for herself? That doesn't make sense either. Without the business there is no "her".

Even Alexis (7 names in between) Dexter had a focus. She wanted Blake Carrington. When she couldn't have Blake her focus was to destroy him.

Yeah, it's so unrealistic that a rich bitch would be into herself!

Yall need a new hobby.

Yet again, if only 'The Gilded Age' were more like 'Dynasty'!

The acme of quality in televised drama.

If only Bertha would wear leopard prints and turbans, and would bitchily refer to Christine Nilsson singing at the Academy of Music as "a second-rate lounge act"!

R49, your carping about the Dynasty references is about as tedious to the rest of us as any reference to Dynasty is to you.

What can we compare it to, dear, to end this tedium? We must.please.you. At least the Dynasty references have a point beyond check cranky baby's diapers.

Seriously, please tell us what you approve for us to compare to so you will shut up.

I wonder if Miss Streep’s stiffness is at least partially due to the fact that the script almost never allows her to use contractions in her speech.

[quote]Yet again, if only 'The Gilded Age' were more like 'Dynasty'!

I wonder if the Champagne in the Edison picnic hampers was burnt?

Lo and behold, R49 is also OP.

We have offended a bossy boots.

OP, please, you are motivated.

Tell us what to do and how to do it to deliver the thread you want.

[quote]Mrs. Astor, everyone's favorite minor character, finally re-appears in the next episode.

She's no Sable Colby.

[quote]Will Gladys lose her figure by eating all the ants in the mansion before her upcoming ball?

That doesn't make any sense.

It's a reference to her "anteater face," as another poster would have it, and I just got the joke myself.

Oh.

Hilarious.

Poor Taissa. I hope they get rid of that frazzled fringe and put some eye makeup on her in S2.

Once she has her debut, Gladys can wear her hair differently.

Why in the world was Miss Scott writing with a ball point pen?

r61, you'd think there'd be room in her voluminous bustle to carry an inkwell.

Krystle was an ex-stenographer.

Mr. Fortune is HOT

Has there been anything about Peggy’s deep, dark secret before?

Just found out that Tom Cocquerel who plays Lawyer Raikes is Australian. I'd love to hear him speak with his native Aussie accent.

Actually, Harry Richardson, who plays Larry Russell is also Australian.

I'm just shocked at the lack of male eye candy on this show. Every man has been decent to downright sad looking. Downton Abby gave us the hot Irish chauffeur, Thomas, and short-lived Jimmy. But then again, I thought Michael J. Fox (pictured below), Andrew, was so damn sexy so maybe the issue is me.

This show only has two hot guys. One the lead and the other a bit player, Ward Horton, mentioned in the previous threads. I'm sure the gay son is a good actor but he's hard to look at so I don't care if he's fucking that basic looking hunk.

Really? I think there is plenty of male eye candy. The males are way more attractive than the females

r66 it's amazing how basic to downright sad the show makes the actors look. Shouldn't people look their best on TV period pieces? Not like the men have to wear hideous dresses and dated hairstyles.

Look at him and our boy Harry Richardson in their dressing room. Both so sexy. On screen, they look like forgettable.

I'm still pissed about the mistress having that Degas bronze, that wasn't available until 1917!

[quote] [R66] it's amazing how basic to downright sad the show makes the actors look. Shouldn't people look their best on TV period pieces? Not like the men have to wear hideous dresses and dated hairstyles.

Also, they should all be carrying smartphones and floating on hoverboards.

Shouldn't they all look as relatable as possible?

Is hot Harry Richardson gay IRL? I’d love to see his character Larry get it on with Oscar after Oscar inevitably marries Gladys.

Which one of them killed Carlo Agretti?

[quote]He hailed from the Drexel clan of which they will be introduced in episode 10.

In fact, Baranski's husband Matthew Cowles' great-aunt was Elizabeth Drexel Lehr who married that screaming queen Harry Lehr - and at the end of her life, as Lady Decies, was sabotaged by Weegee as she entered the Met in his seminal work "The Critic." [She's the bejeweled and tiara'd dowager in the middle]

There are only two hot guys on this show. John Adams, and Daddy George Russell. Oscar has a nice body, but that face needs to be double bagged. Mr. Fane could be acceptable if he didn't look so much like an older Eddie Redmayne. Everyone else is meh.

Megan Mullally for Mrs. Ward McAllister, please!

Stop listening to your queeny hairdresser, r70.

so mr. russell's bald, moody, quiet secretary guy, Watson — michael cerveris — he wrote and signed the note for the shoddy train equipment, right?

[quote]In fact, Baranski's husband Matthew Cowles' great-aunt was Elizabeth Drexel Lehr who married that screaming queen Harry Lehr

"In 1900, Lehr was introduced to recently widowed 32 year old heiress Elizabeth "Bessie" Wharton Drexel Dahlgren (1868–1944). the widow of John Vinton Dahlgren and daughter of the late Philadelphia banker Joseph William Drexel, by Edith Gould, the wife of George Jay Gould. Edith told Bessie that he had "hardly any money, but he goes everywhere," and that it was "impossible to have a party without him."

OH! Isn't this delightful!

Harry Lehr sounds like the Gilded Age's version of the talented Mr. Ripley, without the murderous tendencies ... as far as we know ...

Or he kind of explains the success of Raikes. If you squint.

Why is Nathan Lane playing the plantation owner from the Bugs cartoons?

Because it makes Uncle Julian giggle.

R32 Are you high? Baranaki’s never been less than fabulous and high class. Go watch your Illinois dyke Gillian on X-Files, hunty. You have a thing for dick nosed women huh?

r66, you can hear them both speak in their own voices in the "behind the scenes" videos

the gent who plays oscar is a brit I believe

his voice sounds the most natural, it's sort of a made-up accent but it works, the aussies both edge into Canadian speech patterns which are distracting to me

[quote]Shouldn't people look their best on TV period pieces?

it's not drag race, bunky, it's an evening drama

R65: Peggy either having runaway or having been banished to that backwater Doylestown implied a secret. It isn't a new potential plot twist.

When people get irrational and vulgar about actresses or someone needs to own the next thread launch or control it, it's generally a sign we're running out of things to say. It's like Saliva Fouler and Methuselah Lez on the COVID threads.

Though the underlying pathologies are always entertaining.

Wearing finery isn't the same as looking your best. Rich people had rich diets and most of them were probably more gelatinous than worked-out. Also a lot of those colors and styles wouldn't seem fashionable now.

R45 - Annette Bening would have been good choice for any age appropriate role in The Gilded Age. I am sure Annette Bening would have no trouble playing a character in their early 70s as she is 63.

And (to her credit) she hasn't had any work done that you can see. Least as far as I recall. You don't see her often but she looks like she's aging in place. And good for her.

If there's work there it's the offices of doctors less is more.

EP8: Larry, Oscar and his bf have a three way. On screen, 15 mins of sucking, fucking and some handball action. Mr Russell walks in on them and decides to join in for a bit of fun. Ada can see them from her window and dies from shock while Agnes summons her lady’s maid to BRING UP THE DILDOS! Marion gets run over by a horse.

I think you've got the Ada/Agnes reactions backwards.

Ada will tell them to bring her side saddle to her room.

Bertha needs a new money rival trying to get into the club before she can. I mean, it’s basically a soap at this point. We need more bitchery.

I wonder if Mrs. Astor's horse (an old cultural reference used to describe someone ludicrously dolled-up) will make an appearance.

Of all the problems this show has, Baranski's performance is the very least of them.

For the umpteenth time...

WHAT WAS SERVED AT LUNCHEON?

R98, I think the answer is "not asparagus."

And I would add, not hot chicken soup.

[quote]Of all the problems this show has, Baranski's performance is the very least of them.

I think it's okay. But here's my naïve question; Given it's such an expensive production why don't writers/creators plan a beginning, middle, and end right from the start? Another example is "Versailles". I LOVED IT! But, how long did they think they could sustain such an expensive production? The same could be said for "Dynasty" (sorry, R49... okay... maybe not) it just became far too expensive to produce. The latter years of that show was just a mess.

R101 Versailles is such an underrated show. Every DLer should watch!

r100, I think that a pissed off French Chef would serve something like Consommé aux Royales and list it as Chicken Bouillon on the menu.

$100 in 1883 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $2,783.64 today, an increase of $2,683.64 over 139 years. So their “bazaar” was actually not all that. A stall raised less than $1,000 a day amongst the upper crust? Cheapskates!

[quote] The same could be said for "Dynasty" (sorry, [R49]... okay... maybe not) it just became far too expensive to produce.

LOL.

I'm quite late to this party but I binged on all episodes the past 2 days. I was surprised that I like it cause I never saw a single episode of Downton Abbey and Bridgerton - I tried watching but not my cup of tea. Like some of you, I'm not quite familiar with the era and NY's history- so I viewed this purely from its camp entertainment and was not disappointed.

R95 - it's way soapier way sooner than I expected.

R101 - I don't get it either. This is an HBO show, which is usually a cut above. Julian Fellowes gets away with murder while coasting. Anybody could have written Gilded Age when you look at it. Fellowes' name got them buzz but it's not a particularly special product.

We're all watching this as "camp entertainment" but that's not what Fellowes and the producers intended it to be, r106. Clearly, if you watch the promos, they think it's high art.

Bertha not having a house in Newport really shocked me. Surely that would’ve been built alongside her NYC mansion. They’re gonna have to build one soon for the summer holidays.

[quote] Julian Fellowes gets away with murder while coasting.

Someone posted in an earlier thread that he had become "full of himself". Maybe there is truth in that? I'm far from any type of expert. I just know what I like and what I don't like. This show is simply "okay" to me so far. It holds my attention at the moment that I am watching it. But, I have no sense of urgency to tune in every week. There's been nothing stellar as yet... well maybe, Morgan Spector in his well-fitted costumes especially his pants...

Frankly, I'm much more interested in the DL commentary about the show than the show itself. The DL'er that called out that Degas statue at like, post 596, in the previous thread was PRICELESS!!! Talk about a DIRECT HIT, suspense, and cliffhanger??? S/he needs to being working and writing for this show itself!

R110 I’m not a historian or even an American and I seem to know more about the Gilded Age than these scriptwriters. I would be fact checking the hell out of everything to avoid glaring errors. And if we are to see black NYC then I want to see gay NYC as well.

R111 seems like quite the know-it-all

Goddamn it quit F&Fing the OP of the Gilded Age threads to cause them to be greyed out.

[QUOTE] And if we are to see black NYC then I want to see gay NYC as well.

Thank you. Seriously. And why haven’t we? And John Adams is not being used enough.

What idiot posted the Degas link, and did you read it?

[quote]Gillian Anderson is not more talented than Baranski. Or more interesting. Or more commanding.

Maybe not when it comes to arch comedy, but Anderson is a much better dramatic actress. She was wonderful in House of Mirth, which was set in this era.

She would have been a MUCH better Agnes.

[quote] And John Adams is not being used enough.

He has been used enough. He was a whore back in the day!

[quote]I want to see gay NYC as well.

You see it every episode. I mean... the French chef, the Oscar & John Adams characters, and Nathan Lane--how gayer can you get..., what more do you want?

I want to know what is going to happen to the slutty maid!

R79 - The Drexel history

Joseph William Drexel (1833-1888) - Josephine Wharton Drexel Henry (1878-1966) - Katherine Drexel Henry Cowles - Matthew Cowles (aka Billy Clyde Tuggle & Mr. Christine Baranski)

Joseph William Drexel (1833-1888) - Elizabeth Wharton Drexel (1868–1944), who married John Vinton Dahlgren (1869–1899), another son of John A. Dahlgren, in 1889. After his death, she married New York Society leader Harry Lehr (1869–1929). After Lehr's death, she married John Beresford, 5th Baron Decies (1866–1944) and thereafter was known as Lady Decies.

Anybody who doesn’t think Thomas Coquerel (Mr. Raikes) is extremely handsome is a dolt with no taste whatsoever.

R118, well, she got a “good reference”

R120 I agree, he’s the hottest guy on the show in my opinion.

R113, I can't think why anyone would. Sometimes if a poster has bad karma due to F&F their posts gray even if they don't have a red tag.

R77.... oooooooh, snap!

A virtual

^always a good day when Joan Collins gets slapped.

And this thread is enriched by Dynasty references! We can't have enough, can we, OP?

Whatchualls have for luncheon today?

Turtle soup meringue.

[quote]Whatchualls have for luncheon today?

^

R128 Iles flottantes aux tortues

Borscht

They really do need fact checkers on that show. I'm not that picky, but they've shown that Degas sculpture twice. Maybe it's because I'm in the art business, but a quick Google search shows that piece was not produced until after his death by heirs. There are also dozens of them, some even made in the 70s. The last one at auction that I remember failed to sell at $20 million.

Hasn’t Miss Julian supposedly been working on this for over a decade? More than enough time to iron out historical inaccuracies.

There’s a certain Americanness that’s missing from this show.

[quote] There’s a certain Americanness that’s missing from this show.

I think it's very American with robber barons, Red Cross, and railroad drama.

DLers think if they were in charge of a show, they'd NEVER make any mistakes because they're perfect!

[quote] There’s a certain Americanness that’s missing from this show.

One of the things that most distinguished the oddity of NY society in the 19th century was their obsession with everything European. Not only did they favor British butlers and French chefs, but they tried to make their mansions both in Manhattan and in Newport look like French chateaux. They wanted everything to be as European as possible, which is exactly why they treated their own mercantile families as if they were breeding aristocratic lines.

Edith Wharton writes a lot about this. When the super-prestigious Van der Luydens (who are analogous to the real-life Van Rensselaers) want to teach the newer NY money a lesson for snubbing the Countess Olenska, they hold a dinner party in her party no one can dare refuse to attend, and invite their cousin, an English Duke whose family with which their own family has intermarried, so as to make their guests really see who controls social power in Old New York. Newland Archer notes that Ellen Olenska is not conscious enough of the honor done to her by this, and also realizes she probably does not realize (since she has lived out of New York for so long) that a Duke related to the Van der Luydens in Old New York is considered more prestigious than any other English Duke by NY society.

[quote]so mr. russell's bald, moody, quiet secretary guy, Watson — michael cerveris — he wrote and signed the note for the shoddy train equipment, right?

Yup! That makes a lot of sense. We knew he was up to something. And paycheck or not, Ceveris is a Tony winner; he's not going to hang around the kitchen for the sake of the scenery.

Yeah, it’s like when you watch a murder mystery and some high profile actor is hardly in the first hour then you know he’s the murderer.

Cerveris is the valet, not the secretary

Does anyone have a guess about who the Black man is in the enlarged photo portrait on the wall of newspaper publisher Fortune's office? They focused on it a few times and so I assume it is someone important but I haven't a clue.

Ballls-deep voice Patrick Page is the secretary.

R141 George Washington Carver?

I like the show very much. Everyone complaining that it moves too slowly must remember there are a lot of cast members, and their lives and situations must evolve without being in your face pushy. Relax and enjoy the pace.

141 Frederick Douglas?

It just might be a young Frederick Douglass. I'm going to try and screen shot it, if I can. It was a profile shot similar to the one in the link (which is Frederick Douglass) but I don't recall the one in the series having facial hair.

Here's young Mr. Raikes when he first starting working as an actor, circa 2014. He's got Momma's mussy in a real mess down there.

Eww, R147. He looks MUCH better now.

Anyone with the authority to sign a business contract that ultimately causes major destruction to a railway would not be sitting around the servants table polishing shoes and eating luncheon with the ladies maid. It would be a more logical guess that Patrick Page, the white haired/bearded office assistant signed it. But who really cares anyway as we've barely met these characters?

I hope you all realize everyone from Glenn Close to Gillian Anderson to Annette Bening turned down the role of Agnes. Baranski was no one's first choice. I'd even wager that Meryl dangled them around for awhile until Louisa was signed on.

I seriously doubt Gillian Anderson was offered Agnes.

Glenn Close as Agnes and Annette Benning as Ada would have been an interesting combination.

Gillian Anderson should have received an Oscar nomination for The House of Mirth.

The events of that novel take place over twenty years after the current setting of The Gilded Age.

Glenn Close as Agnes would have been a bore.

I wonder why Christine Baranski accepted such lousy billing? Cynthia Nixon as well.

Carrie Coon’s nasal bray indicates everything wrong with her casting: the character is unappealing, charmless, and doesn’t have to common sense to be good company.

R150 is full of it. LOL, Gillian Anderson isn't anyone's first choice for anything. She only got that gig on The Crown because of her husband

I want Patrick Page in me, quite deeply.

[quote]Gillian Anderson isn't anyone's first choice for anything. She only got that gig on The Crown because of her husband

Did she get the Emmy and the SAG award for that role because of her husband?

I much preferred Gillian’s Thatcher to Meryl’s. I hated The Iron Lady.

R158, Christine Baranski has two Tonys

The Emmy Awards are given to "actors" like Darren Criss who can't even get work outside of Ryan Murphy shows

This needs Lisa Hartman.

Joan Van Ark for Ada!

Donna Mills for Belle Watling-Colby-Dexter-Rowan!

Patrick Page is married to Paige Davis aka Paige Page!

Why is Nathan Lane Foghorn Leghorn? Why does Christine Baranski get all the lines Maggie Smith through on the floor in a huff? Is Mr. Russell’s beard real?

R165 oh dear

Why does r165 have to say the same exact thing in every thread over and over and over?

Dynasty was so much better.

Newport in 1882 is not the Newport we know now.

Many of the most famous houses today were not even built yet: Hammersmith Farm (1887), Marble House (1892), The Breakers (1895), Rough Point (1897), The Elms (1901), Vernon Court (1901), Rosecliff (1902), Clarendon Court (1902), and Seaview Terrace (aka Collinwood) (1925) had all yet to be built.

Thanks, R169. It's now clearer why the Russells would not have had a house there as yet.

It explains why Mamie Fish's house looked more big farmhouse than crazy mansion.

This show depicts the tipping point

This is a Newport House designed by McKim, Mead and White constructed between 1881-1883 and gives you a better idea about what their style looked like at that time and what would have been one of the grandest house there in that period.

What really confounds me about the inept writing is it's as though it was being written as they filmed, hence the disappearance of the plot line about the wandering valet, which they perhaps realized wasn't interesting. Yet, the series has been in development for 10 years. Though perhaps I'll be surprised to find the valet's story line to be pertinent before the finale? But I doubt it.

I wonder if I'd be less critical of the scant attention paid to the servants if they were played by actors I didn't know? But when the great Douglas Sills, Celia Keenan-Bolger, Michael Cerveris, Kristine Neilsen and Debra Monk are cast, I expect them to have more to do than grumble at each other in their respective servants' hall.

Maybe at some point things go off the rails and the servants revolt taking over and force their former employees into subservient roles and smaller parts?

R173, it is great to see that the Isaac Bell house was purchased and restored for preservation. It makes me a little sad so see that beautiful architecture with no furnishings inside. But I guess there is a practical limit to preserving ... what is the point of keeping all of the dead castles around for the sake of time traveling tourists?

*sigh*

[quote]But when the great Douglas Sills, Celia Keenan-Bolger, Michael Cerveris, Kristine Neilsen and Debra Monk are cast, I expect them to have more to do than grumble at each other in their respective servants' hall.

Is that an Equity bylaw or is at least it's a paying job a personal call for smelling salts?

I find it surprising that no one (that I've seen) has commented on Simon Jones as Bannister. I feel sorry for him having such a small part after making such a mark in the 1970s and '80s. I guess his heyday is long past, though.

r177, there are a few Gilded Age grand mansions in the US (like Glensheen in Duluth) where they still have the original furniture and accoutrements, but they're very rare. I don't think there are many available for tourists in Newport. The Breakers has some of the things, like the grand dining room table and its dozens of chairs--but I remember being disappointed at how incredibly bare Marble House and Rosecliff were.

Why feel sorry for him, r179? It's a good role, and he;'s got a steady gig in it.

It's fascinating to realize that the character of Arthur Dent in [italic]The Hitchhiker's Guide to Galaxy[/italic] was specifically written for Simon Jones.

I'm liking Simon Jones in this, even if he doesn't have a ton to do

Carrie Coon was amazing in last year’s THE NEST alongside Jude Law. “Bertha” might not be the best fit for her as an actress, but she has been phenomenal elsewhere (and near sublime in the final season of “The Leftovers”).

I love that it’s light and campy versus the serious drama that Downton Abbey became. That’s actually why I stopped watching.

[quote]What really confounds me about the inept writing is it's as though it was being written as they filmed, hence the disappearance of the plot line about the wandering valet, which they perhaps realized wasn't interesting. Yet, the series has been in development for 10 years. Though perhaps I'll be surprised to find the valet's story line to be pertinent before the finale? But I doubt it.

I felt and feel the same way too, R174. Thus, my comment posted at R101. At times the series feel as if they are writing the script "as they go" and on an "as needed" basis. Maybe the writers are only working with a story board.

Well if they are writing on the go can someone please tell them to write Marion out of the show and MORE gay stuff please. We are a big part of the audience.

Make Marian a fag hag.

R188 no! She needs to go!

With Agnes, Bertha, and Mrs. Astor already doing their part, the last thing this show needs is more faghags.

[quote]And paycheck or not, Ceveris is a Tony winner; he's not going to hang around the kitchen for the sake of the scenery.

Honey, when the mortgage is due, the mortgage is DUE! You do what you have to do. There have been plenty of actors and other performers that had to take gigs that they had rather not of taken because of the numerous friends they have, (all named Bill), were all stopping in to visit at the same time. Robin Williams, Elton John, Joan Crawford, Bette Davis, are names that immediately come to my mind. But, I'm sure that there are many, many, more!

Is he all that? I saw him in Evita as Peron. It takes a strong singer and actor to make that part stand out.

Philip Quast really delivered.

I saw Philip Quast in NT’s FOLLIES. He was wonderful.

Peron is a thankless if necessary part. I can't really think of anyone who stood out except Quast who is massive in size and has one of the great male voices in musical theatre.

I do feel sorry for the actors whose parts are so inconsequential but I there are no small parts, just declining savings.

R188 what makes you think she isn't one already?

I know, Mister Raikes seems to enjoy Mister McAlester's company quite a lot

Mr McAllister at the picnic to Mr. Raikes: May I hep mysef to a leg?

Mr. Raikes: "Of course - everything you see is on the menu."

Well, that was an invitation to a hand job. ^^^

I was confused what the point was of having the other woman be at the picnic instead of Marian unless it was simply to show that Raikes is a cad (shamelessly flirting with other women) and that Mrs. Fane saw it and will report it back to Marian.

Who was the other woman in the carriage, again? I just remember her first name was "Cissy."

Her name was Cissie Bingham, and she was the niece of Henry Flagler.

I think it's to show he's a fortune hunter. Raikes had a long section where he explained who she's related to and how loaded she is.

I used to lust after Philip Quast like mad back in the 90s when I first started seeing him on London stages. People in the know told me he’s bi. Well, I gather quite a few of those Aussie stage queens are (hint, hint).

"Cissie?! Why, I do declare!"

Have the Upsons, Dorris, Claude, and Little Glory, made an appearance yet?

Gilded Age! Why this is more like the Gilded Stage with all these Tony winners wandering in and out, even in the most minor of roles. Hopefully Sutton Foster can join next season as an upstart Southern Gilded Age Belle infiltrating New York Society with her spirted ways!

FYI....

Agnes is soooooo judgey!

I've become an avid follower of Harry ("Larry") Richardson and Ben ("Jack") Ahlers on Insta. Lots of fun photos of them on set and in the dressing rooms with cast mates.

Harry and Ben also have sort of the same long ski nose though it manages to look quite adorable on both of them.

I agree, and they do have fun instas

Are you a Barry shipper? A Barry believer, if you will?

I'm a hairy benny shipper

R154 The "......and, (insert name of star)" is a prestigious credit in film and television. It's a useful way to give out good credits in large cast shows.

Also: we have a Gillian Anderson Loon on here?

I mean, I like her, but she's not the greatest living actress in the world. Her Margaret Thatcher was a bit much.

This show is not actually very prestigiously cast, especially for an HBO production. It's all 2nd tier people and tons of theater people, who might have names in the NYC theater world but aren't actually largely known outside that world.

I'm guessing the shitty script scared away a lot of bigger names.

The shitty script you watch every week?

Im surprised the scripts for the first season are so weak. Downtown was much better done in season one.

I guess you can call me The Gillian Anderson Loon because I was the first poster to mention her in a TGA thread.

Granted, she may not be the most talented actress ever but I do think she can effortlessly bring a style of grand performance, very much evidenced by her arch reading of The Crown's Margaret Thatcher, not to mention more restrained work in the film of The House of Mirth, that this series desperately needs, particularly in the Christine Baranski role, which is clearly meant to anchor the entire series much as Dame Maggie did for DA.

This series doesn't need subtle tasteful acting but it does need bravura performances. And Baranski, as well as Coon. are not delivering.

[quote]Maybe at some point things go off the rails and the servants revolt taking over and force their former employees into subservient roles and smaller parts?

Jean Genet's "The Gilded Age."

R215 Yes. I watch it. It's a bad show that's fun to rag on.

It's still bad.

Yes, R214, I have no idea who half of these actors are.

Colbert had Denee on yesterday and he introduced her as a Broadway star.

Had no idea. She’s fabulous! Her outfit was fantastic.

Weird that someone apparently wastes an hour every week watching a show they don't like. Then wastes more time talking about it on the internet. You must have a lot of free time.

R221 Yeah. Like it's kinda weird how you enjoy wasting your time ragging on me for wasting my time watching a bad show and then ragging about it on a site that bills itself as being about gossip and pointless bitchery.

I guess we should both admit we're awful people and should vow to start using all that time we've been wasting, to heal the world, and save the whales and walk in nature with children and shit like that.

R215 - “Yes. I watch it. It's a bad show that's fun to rag on. It's still bad.”

R215 is obtuse, contrary, and lives to bitch… bitch… bitch. Prove me wrong. Keep your rag on, Maryann, and spare us your cunty and obnoxious comments. In other words; get a life and fuck off.

R220 Really, only Baranski and Nixon are name actors. Coon (what an awful name!) is familiar to quite a few people because she's been in some other prestigious shows.

Meryl Streep's Third Talent-free Daughter is only "famous" because, well....of the obvious

All the regular, opening credits cast are no bodies/newbies. The recurring cast has familiar names/faces if you're up on your Broadway theater talent.

And, of course, there's names like Nathan Lane and Audra McDonald in recurring guest star roles.

R223 Again, it's DATA LOUNGE, the Home of Pointless Bitchery.

Are you new here, or just retarded?

No...you're Miss Fellowes stamping her little feet because her show is being ridiculed.

Thanks for proving my point, R225. Your a mess.

Raikes was being polite to Miss Binghasm. What's he supposed to say when she invites him to Newport? Scream "Ewww, stinkfish!" and slap her viciously?

R226 oh, dear...

I think that these snooty, judgmental threads capture the spirit of Gilded Age society in a way that the show simply does not.

[quote] It makes me a little sad so see that beautiful architecture with no furnishings inside. But I guess there is a practical limit to preserving ... what is the point of keeping all of the dead castles around for the sake of time traveling tourists?

R177, your comment made me think of the debates here in Scotland about how much public funding should go into rescuing Kinloch Castle, a monstrously big shooting lodge built by one of a new generation of industrial magnates here in the UK, at a time when fancy Highland homes were a status symbol for the London elite. Depending on your point of view, it’s either a fine example of Victorian architecture or a huge crumbling moneypit.

R230 Don’t they just donate them to the government forcing them to pay for the upkeep? I keep hearing those stories, and the National Trust must be to the point of breaking.

I don't remember Raikes being especially flirtatious or solicitous to the young lady in his night picnic carriage either, r227. If there was a plot point in that scene, once again, the writing and direction did not support it. And I don't understand why the Russells wouldn't have included Marian in the party instead of the new girl.

Harry is quite the hipster.

IIRC Miss Bingham was a friend of Mrs. Fane's.

In looking at Harry's IG I followed him and then Morgan Spector's IG came up as suggested. Not many pictures of himself but he's outspokenly left wing which is nice to see.

r214 if you watch other shows filmed in the New York area you would notice that they utilize a lot of those theater actors that people might not know.

Interesting that those defending their right to complain about the show because "pointless bitchery" don't also realize how tiresome they are.

If they were at least funny there would be no need for excuse.

He was flirting with that other woman in the carriage. He’s a cad. That’s why we had that scene.

*Everyone* who snipes back and forth with another commenter more than once or twice in a row is tiresome and annoying.

R222 did a good job with that one! R221, is the irony lost on you that you come here once a week to bitch about the bitching? I mean, we're analysing the creativity.... you seem to... have wounded feelings because others don't like it as much as you do.

[quote]I don't remember Raikes being especially flirtatious or solicitous to the young lady in his night picnic carriage either

I was sure one of those "oooooooooooooh, steak!' looks crossed his face at one point. A light bulb went on, an anvil fell... it's the Uncle Julian show.

R225 uses "retarded" as an insult which tells you all you know. Given how much time you waste watching a show you don't like I'm guessing you never get laid

^ Oh, just shut up about it, R242. We get it. By your standards, it's awesome. Why not substantiate that instead of trying and failing to shut us down?

I like that Spector's page is about politics and his projects, and not mostly photos of himself. It's nice to know that he's not vain.

And I like that he's a good left-winger (which does not surprise me, since he went to Reed College).

Will you bitches fucking take it outside?

I agree with r245.

No one wants to read your personal nasty little back-and-forth with another poster. NO ONE.

Back to Fish Knives!!!

Indeed Mrs. Astor, enough with the fishwives, bring out the fish knives.

Did someone say fish wives?

Coon's Twitter or Instagram - can't remember which - is also of a lefty tone, in a good way.

I really tried to get into this series but I just can’t. The young woman lead is so bad, and the other bitchy lead’s voice is too monotone and has such a flat effect. Cynthia Nixon’s character is a joke, Christine’s is ok, but each episode is the same thing: don’t talk to this person or that person. It’s so boring!

I have to say the men’s acting is much better.

I'm going to have to block one or two of you whores just so I can read these threads in peace.

R251, the men have more things to do. The women lead very circumscribed, internalized lives. Its not as if they had much choice, but it’s harder to dramatize what happening to them.

Ideas for future episodes-

Have the characters attend a lecture by Oscar Wilde. He was in NY at the time.

Get Marian involved in Women's Sufferage

The Great Comet of 1882

The Women's Christian Temperance Movement

I like those r254, I like the idea of letting the outer world impinge a little on these domestic dramas.

Someone up thread, or maybe previous thread, was talking about showing a bit of gay New York. It would be interesting to give John Adams more to do, him and Oscar. While Oscar is making the very sensible choice to marry a rich girl and outwardly live the very conventional life he is supposed to. Let John Adams be a bit of an Adams. They were a starchy, respected family out of the New England Puritan tradition, but they were also famously ornery and difficult. Let him push those boundaries a little. Let him as an Adams decide that maybe these boring conventional bourgeois values aren't entirely to his taste.

They could show Oscar and John going to The Slide!

I'd also like to see more of the New York gay underworld!

Btw, Ogden Codman went to the Slide and the Everard Baths way back in the 1890s

Producer/director Michael Engler is an out gay so it would be nice if he was reading this thread and listened to us!

[quote]Producer/director Michael Engler is an out gay so it would be nice if he was reading this thread and listened to us!

As should everybody.

Okay, not really. But dammit, period dramas with heavy soap opera elements and gay sensibilities, they damn well should be listening to DL.

If they wanted to make a gay story appealing they should have made Larry the gay, not Oscar. He looks slightly reptilian. Loveable, sweet Larry would have been a more touching, slightly tragic story.

In attending a lecture, the auditorium at The Cooper Union building is still intact and retains much of its period details and would be a great place to film as it hosted lectures from luminaries in the arts, politics, and social movements and organizations like the Red Cross. When they were holding the bazaar they first mentioned using the Park Avenue Armory. Most of the period rooms there have finally been completely restored in the last few years and I was excited they were going to show them, but then didn’t. I’m wondering if they are saving them for something else, doubling for rooms of some other mansion or a particular historical event. This is the most famous of rooms, designed by L. C. Tiffany and Stanford White.

The Black printer/publisher is handsome.....

That would be nice r262. That whole world is probably hard to recreate for modern audiences, that world where people could be mesmerized listening to hours long lectures or sermons or philosophical and scientific debates or whatever. But at least they could feature the rooms.

I want the two butlers to become friends, have a few drinks, and absolutely let it fly about how they feel about their masters and mistresses.

Just pure 19th-century cunting.

R251 You had me until you said that the men's acting was much better.

What men? Except for George Russell (Morgan Spector) no other male character has THAT much to do...except maybe Raikes and to be honest, while both actors are attractive, neither one is blowing me away with the acting. But, their roles are so underwritten, they don't have much to work with.

There's sneaky Oscar but again, not exactly Emmy award winning performances happening there.

We like to make fun of Miss Lane and her cornpone performance but at least it's fun and has some energy. Something the show badly needs.

News flash: This is a DRAMATIZATION, not a Documentary of "how things were".

On a positive note, Denée Benton is one of the few bright spots in this show. She's a good actress AND gorgeous.

Cute husband, too.

Hopefully, she survives this mess of a show and gets better roles in better productions in the future.

I'm assuming quite a few of us have read this book but it's a must for anyone interested in gay NYC history.

Raikes would be a lot more interesting in one way if Uncle Julian would clarify whether he's on the take or as straight and narrow (if accepting invitations to parties) as he seems. It's kind of passed the point we should be wondering, hasn't it? To the best of my knowledge he hasn't actually done anything on screen that suggests he's up to no good.

Denée is definitely the bright spot on the show.

r262, it would be lovely, but production crews are known for damaging real locations unfortunately.

Speaking of Emmys, other than Production and Costume Design, what nominations could this series possibly expect? As the poster upthread said, the actors simply aren't given enough to work with to create a fully realized character.

It will be interesting to see if TGA or Mrs. Maisel wins those 2 Design Emmys.

I definitely think this show should earn some Emmy nominations for costumes and set design. I am hopeful for a better Season 2 in the writing, acting, and character development department.

r272 as a member of the film crew community you offend me sir. I have worked on many shoots at sensitive practical locations that left them unscathed. If locations and the AD crew are tough and diligent, then all the preventable damage never happens.

[quote]Producer/director Michael Engler is an out gay so it would be nice if he was reading this thread and listened to us!

Actually, that's not a bad idea. Much of the criticism (feedback) from here alone could prove very beneficial.

OH, SHIT! It just came across my screen... Putin hit a Mosque in Ukraine. Well, THAT's going to upset A LOT of Muslims throughout the world!

R276, you are bringing the outside real world into this thread that is all about mindless escapism.

[quote]I'd also like to see more of the New York gay underworld!

Watch the show The Alienist. It is set during this same time, but has a more accurate look, especially showing the enormous gaps in wealth in NYC.

There is a very long scene in a male brothel. I was pretty shocked that they showed it. Young boys dressed up as women luring old men upstairs for sex.

Michael Engler is part of the problem. He's a lousy director.

This show has two directors, Engler and Salli Richardson Whitfield. Her episodes are better paced than his.

Engler was on the verge of becoming a prominent young NY theater director in the 1980s with the Broadway premieres of Richard Greenberg's Eastern Standard (introducing Patty Clarkson), Larry Gelbart's Mastergate and Paul Rudnick's I Hate Hamlet (all admittedly financial flops) but seemed to have chosen to focus his career on film and TV.

I don't think he directed many films but he did do a lot of episodic TV (Sisters, Party of 5, Chicago Hope, etc.) which ultimately led to directing much of the last seasons of DA and then directing the first DA movie.

But his worst directorial effort was the film The Chaperone about the young Louise Brooks, based on a great novel. That film was virtually unwatchable.

It's truly amazing how such mediocrity rises to the top in the film and TV world.

Please, there are tons of working directors who are worse than him

So, I guess in real life, Mrs. Ward McAlister was a bitter invalid. Patti Lupone is season two, right?

HA!!!

And starring Glenn Close as Mrs. Ward McAllister.

This show could have been so much more fun. They should have centered it on Nathan Lane as Foghorn McAllister and brought in Miriam Margolyes as Mrs. Mingott with Winona Ryder as her foil from The Age of Innocence.

Then, I would cast Patti LuPone as the local madame with Kristin Chenoweth as her top whore who infilitrates high society as someone's mistress.

Madonna could play a rival madame who fights with Patti a lot.

With Meryl and Glenn as rival society hostesses.

I say Eva Green as Bertha and Sharon Stone as Agnes- both can play ruthless cunts that you root for, and look good in frocks.

I like the show as is, you mincing prisspots!

We've been rewatching the episodes this weekend. One thing we agree on -- we think Marion and Larry Russell will end up together after the Mr. Raikes. During Bertha's first disastrous dinner, she and Larry were talking and he said something about Marion being much like his mother. Men often marry women like their mothers. THis of course, would anger Aunt Agnes. But I think it would make Bertha happy.

Marian has no money, ergo Bertha would not allow such a pairing.

Unless Marian does turn out to be uber wealthy herself with her fathers railroad stock.

Marian will turn out to be fabulously wealthy (hence Mr. Raike's interest) and will wind up with Bertha's nice son.

There is still one thing that is not adding up for me. If Marian has no money, and Aunt Agnes is now taking care of her, why is Aunt Agnes treating her niece like she is part of high society? Marian apparently never had a "coming out" party, yet she is socializing with all the high society people. She will not inherit any of the Van Rhijn estate, so it seems unlikely that any society men will take much interest in her.

So using this logic, why would Aunt Agnes not look for any opportunity to get Marian married off and out of her house? Why would she care who Marian takes an interest in? It would seem that if a middle class lawyer took an interest in Marian, Aunt Agnes should be saying, "Great catch! Now get out and quit mooching off of me!"

Help me understand what I am not seeing here.

R290, these people patterned themselves on the British aristocracy. If you have the right bloodline, the right relatives, you are "in." You are a part of that society, and you will be looked after, to the extent that you play by the rules. Marian is a Van Rhijn--someone will want her for her connections and status, and therefore she is a useful pawn to the family.

Well, so much for the idea of William Hurt as Bertha’s daddy in Season 2.

[QUOTE] Marian is a Van Rhijn

No, she’s not. She’s a Brooks or whatever her last name is.

Do you also think that Aunt Ada is a Van Rhijn?

Is Marian a Van Rhijn? Isn’t that the family Agnes married into? Agnes’ family has ties back to the Livingstons, which I think would be the main family of merit in promoting Marian. Marian is costing Agnes money, her main operative to me in marrying her off is to get rid of the financial drain she represents as Agnes already has Ada to cover for as well. She wants a good marriage for her as well as that will reflect back of her own position and grandeur. All the new dresses and having her exit mourning as soon as possible is a means to speed that along. She said early on that she assumed Marian had what ever coming out that was necessary in Pennsylvania, but there was no confirmation of that one way or the other.

R293, Ok, I was confused about that (and I apologize) but my basic point stands—once you are connected to that world, no one kicks you out into the street.

Marian Brook is the daughter of the late Henry Brook, who was the brother of Agnes Brook and Ada Brook. The (fictional) Brooks are an old money family who used to live in Pennsylvania, and on the show the mother of Henry, Agnes, and Ada Brook was a Livingston, one of the oldest and most prestigious actual old New York families.

Agnes married into the (fictional) Van Rhijn family, said to be another of New York's most prestigious old families, and she and her late husband had one son, Oscar. When she moved to NYC to be with her husband, Agnes moved the unmarried Ada with her from Pennsylvania.

Agnes and Oscar are Van Rhijns, but Ada and Marian are Brooks still. The house they all live in is apparently owned by Agnes, and was bequeathed to her by her late husband, who in advance of fashion moved from the washington Square area (where most of the old money still lived in the 1860s and 1870s) up Fifth Avenue to the Upper West Side. The new money (the fictional Russells, but in real life the Vanderbilts) have also moved up there because there is space to build brand new houses next to Central Park.

The show has suggested that Agnes genuinely loves and cares for Marian, even though Marian sasses her all the time and disobeys her wishes. But Agnes is quite clear she is giving all her money in her will to Oscar. I don't know how she thinks Marian will marry well into old NY society with no dowry, but she seems to think Marian's lineage and (putative) beauty will be enough to attract the right kind of beau.

Do you think Ada will disown Oscar when she finds out he is a disgusting invert?

I asked someone on TGA crew if they ever shot a scene where Agnes chews out Oscar for his “meetings” with Miss Turner and she said they didn’t.

R298 No, Ada’s already like the cool lesbian aunt of every gay boy’s dream and she’s much more forgiving then his mother.

People didn't always marry for money. Many men wanted the right wife, not the right rich wife. Bertha would presumably be thrilled to have Larry wed into the ancien regime via penniless Marian. They've got money. What they need is respectability. On the flip side, Marian is descended from the right people. She would be a perfectly suitable wife for the old families.

[quote] Do you think Ada will disown Oscar when she finds out he is a disgusting invert?

I think it will be like when Queen Victoria was told about lesbians, and she reportedly flat-out refused to believe such relations were possible.

When Ada bailed out the gambling cook, she indicated to Marian that she wasn't totally depending on Agnes as much as Agnes would like to tell everyone. There must be a backstory there, unless Julian has forgotten it.

Julian has clearly forgotten a lot of back stories.

William Hurt for the late Henry Brooks in Season 2!

Aw, he would have been perfect.

Don't hate me for this post but, would they actually use the name "Larry" in proper NY society? Wouldn't they call him Lawrence?

Larry is a cutie

Mr Raikes needs to sit on my face so I can eat his hot bubble butt.

Marian being the cuckold watching Larry and Raikes make out in front of her.

Now that's the kind of proper threesome for an HBO show.

Hoping for man butts tonight.......or at least one.....

I’m hoping for the next season they do a cross over episode with Euphoria!

Given the way you people bitch about the show, I think a better cross over episode would be with Curb Your Enthusiasm, with Agnes being confronted by Susie.

[quote]I’m hoping for the next season they do a cross over episode with Euphoria!

'Zengaya lures Marian into an opium den'

R314 where she overdoses and dies.

We're just the Gilded Ragers, R313. Hope you're feeling better.

All of you naysayers here need to just admit you love the show.

[quote] Don't hate me for this post but, would they actually use the name "Larry" in proper NY society? Wouldn't they call him Lawrence?

Right? So anachronistic.

[quote] Hoping for man butts tonight.......or at least one.....

Careful what you wish for. Those butlers, Church and Bannister, could take their love / hate relationship to the next level: Doing butt stuff!

What's the deal with McAllister? He's such a broad Southern character and yet demands an English setting for the dinner party? On the surface, it seems out-of-character, but I guess it was a test for Bertha, and he warmed up to her awfully fast. All eyes seem to be on Mr. Raikes for being a devious schemer, but I think McAllister has a scheme of his own going.

[quote] Don't hate me for this post but, would they actually use the name "Larry" in proper NY society? Wouldn't they call him Lawrence?

Only if he were being formally introduced. To his friends and family he would be "Larry," just as William K. Vanderbilt was "Willie," Mrs. Stuyvesant (Marian) Fish was "Mamie," and Mrs. William B. (Caroline) Astor was "Lina."

Of course, Marian Brook addresses him as "Mr. Russell" just as he addresses her as "Miss Brook."

[quote] What's the deal with McAllister? He's such a broad Southern character and yet demands an English setting for the dinner party? On the surface, it seems out-of-character, but I guess it was a test for Bertha, and he warmed up to her awfully fast.

The real Ward McAllister was Southern (from Savannah, GA), but spoke with an affected British accent everyone thought was ridiculous. His whole idea of New York society that Mrs. Astor bought into completely was that they should all replicate British and French aristocracy manners.

McAllister wanted to bring Old Money and New Money together, because he saw (correctly) that ultimately there would be no stopping New Money from creating society around themselves. However, he wanted New Money to have to pay court to himself and to Mrs. Astor and follow the pattern of manners he established.

R320 McAllister hailed from Savanah, Georgia, which along with Charleston, South Carolina retained strong ties to English traditions, most noticeably the upper classes which would have looked to inspiration even long after colonization. This is far from the most academic discussion on it, but it is quick and readable and the last statement sums up that the Southern States retained its origins with England more so then any other region of the United States. I knew mainly about the furniture, design, architecture and gardening, but what was interesting is the Kentucky Derby founded in 1875 came out of that connection including the mint julep, and that still retains it high society association to this day.

I liked Gilded Ragers best in those Fred Astaire movies.

You can see the English stuff in the south when you get away from the major cities or major areas within cities. It’s all there.

There are even southerners who still have a bit of an English accent and all types of English traits and customs.

I think for most of us the problem with "Larry" is it's become such an unpopular and unappealing name. Larry David, Larry King, Larry Bird, Larry Sanders, etc. Hardly the name for a hot young dude in this or any period. But that's the least of this show's problems.

R326, maybe that's it. It just sounds so common with names like Bertha, George, Gladys, Oscar, and Agnes.

R325, I remember reading a book about the making of Gone with the Wind and the dialogue coaches at the time contended the accent at the time of the war was, at least in the east, closer to an English accent than the y'all we he-yah ta-die.

I don't have the patience to read all the upthread history on Ward McAllister, but if his parents were born in England, surely he wouldn't have had such a heavy Southern accent. And then if he's truly the Anglophile he's made out to be, wouldn't he affect an upper crust Brit accent?

But I get it, the character is much more fun with the heavy drawl Nathan uses.

I hope at some point they all get together to do a Bollywood-type musical number.

Oh, definitely. Every series needs a fantasy musical episode. It adds so much. Maybe they could combine it with the Christmas special. Mrs. Chamberlain's love child could return for an emotional reunion, after singing I saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus. Bertha could do a tangoed up version of Santa Baby.

I like it that the Fanboys who actually love the show and think it's good are perplexed and outraged by the comments on here from the majority of people who are Hate Watchers.

And, the people who didn't "get" the concept of Hate Watching.

I’m imagining more a Gilbert & Sullivan type epsidode.

Gilbert & Sullivan is much more period appropriate. Great suggestion.

Bannister performing “I’m The Very Model of a Modern Major General.”

And three of the hottest footmen performing “Three Little Maids Are We.”

And Meryl Streep Jr the Third singing “Poor Wandering Star” totally off pitch.

Maybe a song from Mama Mia?

Maybe a Mamma Mia! tribute episode.

Bertha sings: The Winner Takes it All

Oh wait, the name of the song is “Poor Wandering One.” So sue me.

I do hope to see Raikes in a bathing costume in tonight’s Newport episode. OK, they didn’t have Speedos then but a few shots of his hot feets would do nicely.

Oops, no, I’m R335, dammit.

When there were no ladies about men swam in the nude.👀

R340 Speaking of, I would like to see a scene of Oscar and the Adam’s progeny working out at the New York Athletic Club, which is on Central Park South a few blocks away from Agnes’ townhouse. Perhaps they could be admiring all the other young men of wealth there and picking up a third. Many of the rooms are still very period so filming would be easy.

Does the New York Athletic Club have a steam room?

They'll have to wait a few years for the Everard Baths to open...

Including John Quincy Adams r340. Younger John Adams, take note!

Aurora Fane is actually my favourite character.

Mrs. McAllister is the same actor who played Beverly Leslie, yes?

She's really emerged, kind of out of nowhere r345, but she is one of the most watchable these days.

R332: I am reminded of the NBC executives in PRIVATE PARTS who simply COULD NOT wrap their minds around the the idea that people were Hate-Listening to Howard Stern's show in such large numbers. And that on average, Stern-Haters were listening to the show for 30 minutes longer (or whatever it was) than his fans. That was the mid-1980s....so the concept (whether listening or watching) has been around a LONG time

Mrs Fish, “I like the cut of your jig, Mr Adams”

I SWEAR I’m going to use that on a hot young guy this week

Mister Dixon is a hot fucking bear.

R348, or they just told themselves they were "hate watching" because they don't want to admit they actually liked the show?

I enjoyed episode 8 very much! Finally, something happened! Actually lots of things happened.

P.S. Mrs. Fish is a bitch!

[quote] Mrs Fish, “I like the cut of your jig, Mr Adams”

[quote] I SWEAR I’m going to use that on a hot young guy this week

Then you want to use it correctly: "I like the cut of your jib," not "jig"

A delightfully bitchy episode... Bertha, Aurora, Adams, Agnes, Ada, Fish... everybody had some smart ass going on.

I was just about to say oh, they've figured it out... they're going to make Mrs. Astor the Bertharaptor's real problem in the next season... but scenes for next week suggest in Uncle Julian fashion why drag it out? That snippet of a scene should have been next year.

I was getting palpitations r353. Thank you!

If they go the way it seems, Peggy's story has been cut adrift. That never bodes well. I assume something will lure her into the 5th and 61st orbit again.

Damn, I kinda like Peggy's story. I was worried she would just be some virtue signal for everybody to rally around, but they seemed to be doing something much more interesting with her. I hope they very much continue with that.

Is that it?

Queen Latifah for the estranged midwife!

During the preview for next week you could see Peggy sitting is Mrs. Chamberlain’s drawing room, so perhaps she finds other employment?

That footman of the Van Rhijn household, Jack is hot.

This was a GREAT episode--as fine as this show can be (given its enormnous limittaions)

Loved the humiliation of Mrs. Russell being hustled out of Beechwood through the kitchen to where the servants were plucking chickens. She was so furious! Mrs. Astor will be punished next week, I expect: if you know what actually happened with Carrie Astor, Mrs. Astor, and Alva Vanderbilt's big ball, you know what's going to happen next week (since Fellowes is duplicating it so exactly with Gladys's coming out ball, even down to having Carrie Astor being happily involved in the quadrilles).

George Russell's merciless promise to make Miss Ainsley suffer by making her scrub floors for the rest of her life was very much in keeping with his character. Although what she could actually do is sneak out and move to another city under a different name and work there as a a stenographer under a different name. It was very easy to change your identity and move in those days as long as you were careful.

Mrs. Fish is now my favorite character on the show. She's so manipulative and such a hilarious 9and fun) bitch! But she was in real life too.

So.....the chubby stenographer and her bear of a bf caused the train wreck??

I thought you could tell Coon was pregnant in the law and white ball gown in the scenes for next week and in the red dress at Mrs. Astor's. Her run out of the house into the at home abattoir was actually really funny. But they should have given her a line like "Don't worry, I've seen all this before." Something for Bertha to be in on the joke of her own past. I thought it was the first sign of any charm from the character in tonight's episode.

With the secrets Miss Ainsley must know about George Russell's business manipulations, I think I know who'll wind up on top in that relationship.

That house wasn't the actual Beechwood, was it?

Actually, I take that back: my favorite character now is actually the hilariously homely and sour Mrs. McAllister! God, she was making me laugh tonight!

What is going on with Oscar's hair? He looks like one of the Fry Guys.

I have a feeling Adams is going to go all 1880s Glenn Close.

Though I suppose he'll boil a turtle.

That's a possibility as well, R351.

I have found these threads amusing. I like the show. I don't think it's the greatest thing I've ever seen, but I've enjoyed it. I think I benefited from never having seen Downtown Abbey (so I'm not constantly comparing it to that), and I also had NO CLUE who Louisa Jacobson was, until I looked her up after the first episode.

I truly don't understand why Peggy had to leave the van Rhijn household. She was married when she had her baby. Can someone explain, please?

Also, can someone explain how George Rusell was exonerated for causing the RR crash?

Also, what was that woman's relationship to the wandering valet and why should we care? We've barely met the wandering valet. And now the French chef seems to be having a scandalous relationship with some dark haired woman of the streets.

R370, she told Agnes she believed Armstrong, the maid, would only continue and be a bigger bitch. Since Agnes wouldn't fire Armstrong, Peggy left.

George was slightly less clear to me. I got the impression they picked up the line of questioning midstream by which time they had illustrated collusion between the fatties. But I may have missed something in that.

[quote] And, the people who didn't "get" the concept of Hate Watching

I definitely don’t get it, ducking read a book for god’s sake

Dear God, Morgan Spector is so incredibly sexy.

Continue what, r371? How could Armstrong harm Peggy? Peggy's done nothing to be ashamed of and Peggy is so much smarter and stronger than Armstrong, isn't she? But I appreciate your answer. Thank you.

This series continues to challenge itself in stupidity, even for a soap opera. And yes, I hate-watch it but these DL threads mocking it make it fun.

Wow. The Streep spawn hit a new low this week.

Twice it seemed like the other actors actually were auditioning with an assistant reading lines back to them — when Marian met Mr. Raikes at the beginning, and when Miss Scott was confessing her past to Marian.

[quote] Loved the humiliation of Mrs. Russell being hustled out of Beechwood through the kitchen to where the servants were plucking chickens. She was so furious!

Also I love it that the servants were clearly furious that this “dame” was trouncing through their work space, class division would have worked both ways back then.

Whoever you are, I think no one hate watches it more than you. I have to say that I like it.

Continue to be an unrelenting bitch, R375. Again, this is a Julian Fellowes show.... ya gotta cut it a lot of slack. He is 90% tell, 10% show, 100% costumes.

I like to hate it. It's the writing drives me nuts. So much opportunity to do a great show but it's so Uncle Julian. I don't think Streep Jr. is so awful, personally.

So Aurora is on to Mr. Raikes. The Streeplet seems to be playing an idiot in this episode.

John Adams is looking spurned and needy. Oscar is not happy. Adams knows how to twist the knife, chatting up Gladys.

Mrs. Fish was like a breath of fresh air. What a bitch. Mrs. Astor isn't as much fun, but her cadaverous butler is great. Mrs. McAllister doesn't seem very interesting.

I actually know someone from Peshtigo! The footman seems to change accents in this episode.

Agnes is great--pivoting from her miscarriages to cutting that bitch Armstrong with ease.

Downton is light years better

And continuing the parade of theater actors is Nancy Anderson as Mrs. MacCallister. She played with Kelli in FAR FROM HEAVEN and Donna in WONDERFUL TOWN. Small world.

And I'm LOVING Ashlie Atkinson as Mamie Fish. Her plus size looks so fabulous in those corseted bustles.

I agree

Ben Ahlers (Jack Trotter the footman) gives me Timothee vibes but I think he's cuter than Timothee.

In next week’s season finale Carrie Coon won’t look so pregnant because the ball scenes were shot in December 2020. The Newport scenes in tonight’s episode were shot last June.

I do too

Get rid of Mrs. Russell! So LOL.

I think Mr Russell also had the scene with the stenographer to demonstrate how much power the barons of that day had. They could end your career, your social life. And that was it. Certainly the fear was real. It held over for generations. I remember a lot of people’s parents and grandparents always acting in public as if there was some all seeing eye. And always kissing up to to one’s “betters”.

Not so much anymore. That fear is gone. And even reversed. I think the internet has somewhat flipped things around.

George was scary in that scene like season 1 scary Blake Carrington.

I think it took a few episodes for the show to hit it’s stride. But maybe Covid played a role.

The show is getting really good now so hopefully it just had a bumpy start.

R366. You’re correct that was Chateau Sur Mer, standing in as Beechwood. The actual Beechwood was bought a few years ago by some uber-rich person, and has been under reconstruction forever, it’s supposed to house his art collection, it’s really not very grand.

[quote]The show is getting really good now so hopefully it just had a bumpy start.

There's a lot less talking about crashing society, and now we're seeing it play out.

You could tell Carrie Coon was incredibly pregnant when they filmed the scene where they hustled her through the Beechwood kitchen to the yard. Her face was so fleshy she looked like a different person.

I think they have been intentionally holding back Ms astors scenes to reflect that she was not so accessible. Being in her circle was a big deal. We are being worked up to a big reveal. The audience is being slowly let in like we are also working our way up the ladder. Her Newport house reveal was an example. Just a taste of what’s to come. Let’s hope.

Anyway. The subject matter of this show is really fascinating to a lot of people. I wonder if this will inspire a bit of a gilded age revival in entertainment. There are new generations that don’t know any of the lore. One show can only scratch the surface.

Those Newport scenes looked cold... the trees weren't even filled in yet. That was June?

This show needed a lot more of Mrs. Fish earlier in the season

There were horrendous editing continuity issues for Marian in the law office scene with Mr. Raikes. It went back and forth twice with her arms outstretched and then brought in together. And then there seemed to be issues with her and Miss Scott during the confession where they shot Miss Scott looking off at an angle and not at her during the conversation. I blame Streeplet, I think there was a story early on that she was so new to acting for the camera they had to use sandbags on the floor to keep her from going past the mark she needed to hit for filming.

The Italian boy and the Irish girl are so cute. I think this was common back then, no? For the husband to be Italian and the wife to be Irish. They had the most beautiful kids. I assume that both were usually catholic so I guess it just worked.

I’m sure they had Irish husbands with Italian wives too. But that doesn’t seem as common.

Here’s my prediction, when Marian runs into problems with Mr. Raikes, and it will happen early in the elopement, it’s going to be George Russell who swoops in and rescues her and covers everything up hiding it from society and Aunt Agnes and becomes almost a surrogate father to her. He will feel he owes it to her since she’s the one who tipped him off, even unknowingly, about the stenographer.

Who cares about Mrs. Astor, Mrs. Fish looks fun.

A mick marrying an Italian was an abomination well into the 20th century. Especially a comedown if the girl was Irish.

Fish was a real person, for people who didn’t know that. I read it upthread.

Perhaps an abomination but still common, no? It’s certainly not being portrayed as a forbidden love on this show.

I’m no expert. I saw a dl thread on mixed Irish and Italians and they are gorgeous.

So I've been re-reading Age of Innocence, inspired by this show, but really, honestly, inspired by these threads. The thing that pops out at me most on this reading is the absolute horror of anybody interesting. Not just Countess Oleska, with her issues, but seriously anybody, artists, Professor Sillerton who totally fits in but horrors spends his vacations exploring Yucatan caves rather than dicking around in Paris, the French tutor, seriously anybody who has anything like an interesting life or an interesting story sends these rich assholes into hysterics and must be avoided at all costs. It's truly pathetic, but I suspect it is kind of the same with rich people today. Anything other than clothes, houses, and which dingbat is engaged to which jackass this year. They honestly cannot deal with it.

One of the Hamilton Fishes, no doubt.

I do laugh at Carrie Coon strutting all the time. The Bertharaptor has a pair, you can't deny that.

R405: It was not common , at all, until the second half of the 20th century.

It made a lot of sense this episode that Mrs. Fish immediately cottoned to John Adams, since he's closeted.

In real life, Mrs, Fish was hugely fond of the closeted Harry Lehr, whose story they seem to be basing Oscar's on.

The handsome and well-built Henry "Harry" Lehr was in high society in the late nineteenth-century, but like Oscar he did not have enough money to live at the level he wanted. He solved his problem by aggressively wooing the beautiful Elizabeth "Bessie" Drexel, the incredibly wealthy widow of one of Jay Gould's sons. On their wedding night, Harry told Bessie that he was physically repelled by her, and that he would never have sex with her or sleep in her bed (in fact, Harry Lehr was gay, although Bessie never said whether or not he told her that that night), and that he had married her only for her money and for no other reason; but that he would be the perfect husband to her in public and treat her attentively when other people saw them. She was horrified and crushed, but she was so worried that if she annulled the marriage she would bring shame to and destroy her elderly mother.

So she stayed married to him (although they spent little time together), and Harry acted as the "court jester" to Mrs. Fish in the first two decades of the twentieth century. Mamie Fish adored him because he was very funny and very naughty (just like her), and together they threw wild parties in NYC and Newport. Mamie aspired to replace Mrs. Astor as the head of NY society, and she needed a Ward McAllister of her own. (McAllister disgraced himself by publishing a memoir in 1892 which told stories about high society out of school--just like Truman Capote did when he published "La Cote Basque"--and died shut out from that society.) Harry became known as "King Lehr" because of his high position in society, although he was never nearly as powerful a gatekeeper and arbiter as McAllister had been--just so, although Mamie Fish was a popular hostess, she never had the unquestionable high position Mrs. Astor did because she was considered so eccentric. Lehr was also very fucked up, and suffered a major nervous breakdown, probably because of the strain of remaining in the closet. He died of a brain tumor in 1929.

Bessie married a third time after Harry died, and seems to have found a much happier arrangement with her third husband, the British Lord Decies, whom she remained married to until the very end. And she got her revenge against the late Harry by publishing her own biography of him, [italic]'King Lehr' and the Gilded Age[/italic] (which someone mentioned upthread) in 1935, in which she told all about how cruelly Harry had deceived her.

Odd to think that a rich woman would be named Bertha. Ada or Agnes, maybe but Bertha?

[quote] One of the Hamilton Fishes, no doubt.

Mamie was married to the railroad tycoon Stuyvesant Fish, the son of the first Hamilton Fish, who had acted as the governor of NY, a US senator of NY, and the US Secretary of State in the 1870s in the administration of Ulysses S. Grant. Stuyvesant Fish was (like the show's Brook family) the son of a Livingston descendant, and was also a descendant of (and named for) Peter Stuyvesant, the last director-general of New Netherland before it became taken over by the British and re-named New York.

Mamie herself was of very high New York lineage, although she was so poorly educated (as a woman in the 19th century) that by her own admission she could only barely read or write. I wonder if they'll eventually show that on this show.

Donna Murphy and Kelli O'Hara: Two Tony-winning "King and I" Annas together tonight

[quote] Odd to think that a rich woman would be named Bertha. Ada or Agnes, maybe but Bertha?

Bertha Russell was not born rich--we've been told her father was an Irish immigrant, and that she married George who became rich by his bootstraps.

And Bertha was a very popular 19th century woman's name.

Bertha was a popular, and even glamorous name at one point. But at some point, everything becomes unfashionable, and even ugly. Today, it just seems like such an ugly name, but late 1800s, not.

The same way, Chintz became Chintzy, once upon a time.

I’m getting Aunt PityPat vibes from Mrs Fish.

Disagree with the people who think Downton was better....the plotlines on that show were way goofier than the ones on here. Hey, let's have Mr Bates accused of murder! Let's have O'Brien try to cause the Countess to miscarry!

A fun episode. though some things didn't gel, Peggy's story line with all that hand-wringing, pearl-clutching & a dead baby... Too Victorian melodrama even if this supposed to be a Victorian melodrama.

The best part: Bertha, thrown out on her bustle, surrounded by chicken feathers & fish scales, ha!

I'd kill for Agnes's Rococo Revival parlor furniture.

Yeah, they fucked up with Peggy. Should be some kid out there. Or is there?

That would be okay. But they are probably fucking it up. The kid she has to find. That would be one way to go. They are probably going in the wrong direction.

I'm 100% sure we'll find out that Peggy's baby is alive and that she must search to find him next season.

YES, that is a Victorian plotline, but this is a show set in the Victorian era!

You may be right r420.

Heh, we said 420.

WTF keeps using Berthanraptor, or whatever as a name? It sucks.

[quote]Bessie married a third time after Harry died, and seems to have found a much happier arrangement with her third husband, the British Lord Decies, whom she remained married to until the very end.

Gurl, Lord Decies tried to divorce Bessie, she fought it, and he died before it could happen. They barely spent any time together; she married him for his very low level title and even once used the Rt Hon and a British newspaper took her to task as it was not her right to do so.

[quote]I'm 100% sure we'll find out that Peggy's baby is alive and that she must search to find him next season.

Yes, and I'm equally sure Peggy's father arranged to have the baby taken away and for Peggy to be told it died at birth.

Will we find out more about Agnes "losing a child"?

I'm one of the main hate watchers on here and I thoroughly enjoyed that episode! I mean, the writing is still ridiculous but at least that episode had energy...it really moved along.

And, yeah, Mrs. Fish is a star character. And, the Cunting Gays may rival the Cunting Butlers as fun things to watch. Oscar vs John Adams could be quite juicy...but, watch, they'll go all Dynasty here and kill off John Adams.

The "Let's Reveal Yet More Secrets About The Servants!" bit isn't particularly interesting but...eh.

Yes, I'm loving John Adams being a complete bitch

1) That’s the big scandal with Miss Scott? It was more sad than shocking. Honestly, I would have loved Armstrong to have gotten thrown out on her fanny.

2) Speaking of getting thrown out on her fanny, I loved that scene of Bertha being thrown out and rushed through the kitchens and rooms of the downstairs staff. Oh, how gauche!

3) I’m team John Adams. Mr. Van Rheijn is a smug asshole.

I still don’t understand wtf happened with the stenographer and the other guy.

They stole the money meant for the rail cars? Obviously she knew Russell’s signature and forged documents?

Did Russell look inside the lady’s purse?

Dixon was the name of the fat guy, so the stenographer used the name to buy at Bloomingdale’s?

All the dresses were swoon worthy. The last outfit Agnes wore made her look like Elsa from Frozen. Those embroideries looked cartoonish.

Poor Peggy, you feel for her and yes, her child is still alive and her awful father took him away.

That house didn’t look like much, at least from what they showed us.

Only one more episode for the season. Oh the sadness, I miss it already.

[quote] The handsome and well-built Henry "Harry" Lehr was in high society in the late nineteenth-century, but like Oscar he did not have enough money to live at the level he wanted. He solved his problem by aggressively wooing the beautiful Elizabeth "Bessie" Drexel, the incredibly wealthy widow of one of Jay Gould's sons. On their wedding night, Harry told Bessie that he was physically repelled by her, and that he would never have sex with her or sleep in her bed (in fact, Harry Lehr was gay, although Bessie never said whether or not he told her that that night), and that he had married her only for her money and for no other reason; but that he would be the perfect husband to her in public and treat her attentively when other people saw them.

Fuck. I hope the show won't do that with Gladys and Oscar or John. I kind of like Gladys and I like John (I think a marriage of convenience with John could work for Gladys if she's in on it from the start and gets away from her overbearing mother).

What a great show.

[quote] I truly don't understand why Peggy had to leave the van Rhijn household. She was married when she had her baby. Can someone explain, please?

Peggy was just done with Mrs. Armstrong's bullshit, so she rather put up with her parents' bullshit. Agnes extending her hand for a handshake with Peggy is a big deal. Her unwavering support for Peggy makes Agnes such a loveable character. Back in the promo trailer for the show, Agnes came off as so sinister. Quite a pleasant surprise that she didn't turn out that way.

It's also interesting that Agnes doesn't seem very keen to fire servants who did her dirty, like Bannister. Is it really her old age? Or is she stuck in her old ways and fears change and disruption that could come with new hired help?

I wonder if Peggy could work as stenographer for Mr. Russell? Or is that too 'woke' for the era?

Mr. Russell will become Marian’s protector/advocate and she will ask him to give Peggy a job.

I do it, R422. So I blocked you. Do the same and we can both live in peace.

R433, blocking reveals a real charmer. Thanks for coming out!

R432... good catch... a happy coincidence a stenographer is suddenly out of a job and another one is fired. Russell will have cause to thank Miss Brook, what-a-happy-coincidences will be exchanged, and Peggy's on staff at Colbyco. Tick box.

But what does that leave for Agnes? The world for her and Ada is getting smaller and emptier. Marian's possibly eloping, Peggy's on to better things, Oscar needs his privacy...

R4238 - they were married. He was embezzling. She helped him cover it up by providing the memo at the heart of Russell's appearance of guilt. I'm guessing she used his name at Macy's because the account would have been under his name... in those days it would have been pretty unusual for a woman to have her own credit unless she were a rich widow.

What the hell are you talking about, r435? I barely ever post here.

R431, I agree about Agnes. Baranski manages to give her character all kinds of richness and complexity just through her voice. God knows she barely leaves the house, otherwise.

[quote]I'm one of the main hate watchers on here and I thoroughly enjoyed that episode! I mean, the writing is still ridiculous but at least that episode had energy...it really moved along.

I don't know a ton about production or directing in particular. It was a far better episode, it moved without feeling rushed and there was a lot of energy. So does this episode benefit from a better script, a better director or both? (I think there was a consensus the woman director delivers far better episodes than does the man.) But do subtle touches like the feathers come from the script or the director in the planning or both? When a scene clicks, and that hustle out the back door did, I never quite know who to credit for giving the actor the room to bring it alive. If every episode had been at least half as good as last night you'd call it a great show.

I know you don't, R438, and to read your consistently harsh remarks in other threads, that's what Martha Stewart would call a good thing.

We have watched eight episodes now but have completed only about six threads. So there go my expectations that we might have a thread for each episode.

I am looking forward to next week's episode and I am curious to hear when Season Two will start airing ... probably not until some time in 2023.

If they push the post-production could they get it on air just post the Crown drop next November (I think)? You could market to new subscriptions who need a costume and gilt fix by doing a round of publicity once Crown's streaming.

It’s too bad that the season is ending just when things are getting interesting.

I liked this week's episode, but it had a different look to it, more "shot on vide" than most of the others. I noticed that in another episode, too (episode 5, I think). Anyone else notice this?

The show is beginning to come together, and I'm starting to enjoy it, mainly because of these threads.

It looks like the same director, Sessie's great friend Michael Engler, and the same writers, so it just seems like they finally got warmed up, and now it will end with cliffhangers aplenty...

[quote] A mick marrying an Italian was an abomination well into the 20th century.

You mean a mick marrying a daigo

I'm assuming the cliffhanger accidentally clarifies whether Raikes is up to no good or inexplicably in love. The elopement will probably be a cliffhanger but we'll surely be clued into what is actually at stake. I haven't seen anything explicitly says he's up to something. When Nigel Havers played the fortune hunter on Downtown it was pretty obvious pretty quickly, although I think that was a one and done Christmas special, not a season storyline.

[quote] in those days it would have been pretty unusual for a woman to have her own credit unless she were a rich widow.

FYI to all; Women weren't allowed to have credit (credit cards) in their own name until 1972. It was the Equal Credit Act of 1974 that gave women access to credit.

I really enjoyed this episode, too! I really need to rewatch the court scene. I missed what Ms Ainsley said about the note. Something about saving the note from something else that was being built; perhaps the Russell house itself?

Since next week is the season finale, I'm sure HBO will have a marathon of the season. HBOMAX probably has all episodes but I'm not going to pay separately for that when I'm already paying for HBO. I love marathons. That's how I got into GoT. It was on the week between Christmas and New Year's and I was off that week.

[quote]Mrs. McAllister is the same actor who played Beverly Leslie, yes?

HA! EXCELLENT! GOOD ONE!!!

[quote]Yes, I'm loving John Adams being a complete bitch

Never cross a bottom, honey. Just don't do it! Where you thought you would have found mess won't be there but will be everywhere else...

R449 - My mother had a charge account (credit) at an Ohio department store in the 1960s.

[quote] I'm guessing she used his name at Macy's because the account would have been under his name...

Macys?

MACYS???

bloomingdales!

[quote][R449] - My mother had a charge account (credit) at an Ohio department store in the 1960s.

That's great, R452. While anything is possible, women generally could not get credit in their own name. Again, anything is possible such as your mom having a card in her name but it was attached to the name of your father. Or... the name of some other man like the insurance salesman.

Widows were treated as men in law back then so an Agnes would have a credit and accounts but an Ada would not.

LOL R453... I mean Bloomies. I realized that while walking the dog - and gasped a little.

R446, who's Sessie?

Mrs. Fish is exactly the foil that Bertha needed as she bulldozed her way into society. Pity they had Mrs. Fish just sort of accept her at the end despite a few barbs here and there. Odd, though, that Mrs. Fish seems very fond of Larry.

Odd, r459?

We're ALL fond of Larry!

I'm fond of Larry, but so far he seems to have no dick.

LOL well, Larry is a hot piece. But clearly Mrs. Fish thinks the Russell parents are trash.

which they are

R443, there’s no way this show can air before next spring. My crew friend said the start date is April 27th and it wraps in December.

R464... is that a long shoot? Maybe a few more episodes now they know they've got an audience. Plus I know others have remarked on the Baranski scheduling problem.

R449: I had a well-off aunt, in Ohio in the 1960s, who had trouble getting credit in her name after her husband died. I believe that a suit against the Higbee Company in Cleveland was one of a number of cases that led to women being able to have credit under their own names.

[quote]It's also interesting that Agnes doesn't seem very keen to fire servants who did her dirty, like Bannister.

Deep down she knew that she really couldn't complain. The man was paid $100 for a few hours of service. That equates to thousands in today's dollars. Agnes would have thought him a fool to reject that type of money. But, she's probably angry because she didn't get a cut.

i think she's just an old stick-in-the-mud, why have to retrain a new little piece of ass to move dishes around when he old cunt you have does an okay job despite being a cunning bitch

Having a British butler like Bannister was prestigious and he would no doubt be difficult to replace.

Oscar made another comment about needing a lot of money to live the way he wanted to live. Guess dad really did leave his fortune to Agnes, and guess Mom isn't giving him much of an allowance.

he wants to be a rich bitch

Or he's just hungry for Russell level wealth.

Isn’t this Fellowes fellow the guy who did Christmas episodes on Downton? Might there be a Gilded Age Christmas stand alone episode? Marian, abandoned by Raikes, left pregnant and poor travels to Brooklyn by donkey and finds solace in giving birth to a baby in Peggy’s family’s carriage house? Aunt Agnes plays The Grinch in a holiday bazaar fundraiser and her heart grows three sizes larger. The Russell’s confuse the seasons and get snowed in at their new Newport mansion and have to eat the servants to survive. Broken hearted and poor John Adams tries to earn money by selling matches in the Bowery and freezes to death. Oscar is visited by three ghosts, but doesn’t change at all. And Mrs. Fane puts on a Christmas concerts and invites Peggy’s mother to sing holiday songs with her and Thomas Edison records the first Christmas album under there pseudonyms Kelli and Audra’s Christmas Tunes.

Closeted gay guys needed, and still need, a lot of "fuck you!" money to stay financially independent even after their secret got out. While we love Agnes, Oscar might think that she would disown him (somehow managing to cut him off from his dad's trust fund) if he brought shame to their family's reputation by being a "confirmed bachelor".

Guys like Oscar are raised to care very much about what other people think of him. Most closet cases were content with their peers whispering behind their backs but still act like they were one of them to their faces, because of the closet gays' wealth or other valuable assets which secured their social standing. If their peers turned their backs on them, at least they had a lot of money to keep living grand, like Mrs. Chamberlain on the show.

Christmas Specials are a UK thing on many programs.

We shall see if Fellowes follows suit for an American series.

This is kind of a nit-picky detail, but now that I've noticed it, it really bothers me.

Once I saw the photos in the Instagram accounts that showed that the outdoor set buildings had no second floors -- they just had the first floor and the tops transition to green screen -- I started to notice how the shadows don't make sense. I was thinking, "Why is the street so brightly lit all the time?" It's because a three story building casts a longer shadow than a one story building does, but the CGI team at TGA doesn't have the technology to fix that, and right now they do not have the budget to build full facades to all the buildings on their Fifth Avenue set.

So unless the sky is overcast, it feels like perpetual noon whenever they show a street scene. There is no early morning or late afternoon change in the lighting because they simply can't do that with the CGI technology the way they have it set up.

Get to work on that, Julian, Gareth, and the rest of you at HBO.

A daigo ate my baby.

HBO has been running at least one marathon of the show weekly. They’re clearly trying to build an even bigger audience. I’ve really enjoyed the show flaws and all.

The second season will be so much cheaper to produce now that so much scenery has been built, locations have been found and decorated and costumes and wigs have been fit. Hopefully, they'll focus a little more on the scripts.

R475, I find myself looking at the smoke rising out of the chimneys in the outdoor scenes. It's kind of a hoot!

I suspect Agnes wouldn't want to fire Bannister or Armstrong out of fear that the Russells will snap them up and blab information. Plus, no matter how many times she says it, we all know how bad John was at serving lunch. No one could imagine him taking Bannister's place.

Maybe I'm being nit-picky, but wouldn't gossip have gone around that Bannister wasn't the Russell's butler?

Oscar is 50 years old, and insufferable.

I think Oscar is the least likable character, and even though I understand they can't live out in the open, I think he treats his boyfriend like shit.

r419 with Peggy out of Agnes' house she is freer to write about controversial topics for the paper. I think that gives her greater potential as a character on the show and allows her to come in conflict with Aunt Agnes over politics and societal matters which will be tough for both of them because they truly like and admire each other.

[quote]who's Sessie?

The one with the messhy pusshy.

r455 nice shade

[quote] [R419] with Peggy out of Agnes' house she is freer to write about controversial topics for the paper.

Peggy moved back to her parents, and I doubt they will be pleased about their daughter writing about controversial topics. Her dad is using any excuse to get into an argument with her about her independence and her ambition to make it as a journalist. She just moved from one potential powder keg to another.

Is there a particularly good book about the demise of the Gilded Age fortunes? I'd like to know where the money went (I assume in no small part inheritance, given they didn't follow the British model in that.) Has anybody read Anderson Cooper's book about the Vanderbilts?

Similarly has anyone done the Newport tours? How long does it take to feel you've seen it all? Is it jammed with people in summer? Any thoughts welcome.

I quite enjoyed this episode. Bertha is actually more fun now that she is less of an all-powerful bulldozer and more of a Hyacinth Bucket, with her feet firmly on the social ladder. The last scene in particular was pretty funny as she was forced to flee, although in typical Downton style the scene started and ended too abruptly. Coon is good when she gets these little comedy moments to play, and it’s also rather endearing to see how oblivious Bertha is to the fact that she is losing control of Gladys.

It’s interesting that Marion once again helped the Russells. She was the first to talk to them, the first to attend their party, and now she has saved gorgeous George. I suspect the Russells are going to repay the debt by saving her from the caddish Mr Raikes.

I quite enjoyed the graveyard scene. It was the first scene in which I really cared about the downstairs staff. However, that may just be because I think John is cute as a button.

She also has a couple lines that were almost maternal to Gladys, rather than treating her like a show pony.

Why are the actors playing Gladys and Oscar so damn old in real life compared to the age of their characters? There had to be more age appropriate people to cast.

[quote]Why are the actors playing Gladys and Oscar so damn old in real life compared to the age of their characters?

Money.

He needed a job and was cheap.

She needed exposure and was cheap.

[quote]Similarly has anyone done the Newport tours?

I have enjoyed going to the breakers, I went to another house too, but I can’t recall where

Interesting to see how the differences in primogeniture and entail do not interfere with a Robber Baron's inheritance perogatives.

[quote] Fuck. I hope the show won't do that with Gladys and Oscar or John.

I doubt Gladys will marry Oscar or John ultimately, because I doubt either would meet the standards of Bertha (although since Adams is both old Boston money AND the descendant of two US presidents, Bertha would consider him a better choice than Oscar, who would be little better than Archie Baldwin).

But I think poor Gladys is doomed to make an unhappy marriage. Since her mother is so closely modeled after Alva Vanderbilt, I think we can expect that Bertha will be pushing her daughter to marry European royalty, and so often that worked out horribly. the real Alva Vanderbilt made her daughter Consuelo marry the Duke of Marlborough, who despised her and married her only for her money so he could repair his inherited mansion, Blenheim Palace.

Other "dollar heiresses" of the time, such as Anna Gould (Jay's daughter) and Winnaretta Singer (Isaac's daughter), whose parents wanted them to marry royalty to improve their own social standings, often found themselves married to gay princes and aristocrats who would not touch them physically (at least the Duke of Marlborough, who was not gay, fucked Consuelo enough to produce two heirs). Fortunately Winnaretta Singer was herself a lesbian, but Anna Gould really suffered from being married to the gorgeous but exploitative Marquis de Castellane, who bled her family of $10 million (multiply that by thirty to get a sense of what that would be in today's dollars)

[quote] The last scene in particular was pretty funny as she was forced to flee, although in typical Downton style the scene started and ended too abruptly. Coon is good when she gets these little comedy moments to play,

She was really funny. She was so outraged at being physically hustled out of the hallway that she didn't even have time to sort out what her feelings were until they had safely parked her outside.

This was the first time I felt she had been genuinely humiliated all season, and I liked it because otherwise this season has just been triumph after triumph for the Russells. The two previous times she felt humiliated--when no one came to her "at home" in the first episode or when the charity group refused to use her ballroom for the bazaar--made her seem like she was completely overreacting, and it was impossible to feel any sympathy for her. This time I could.

I also have to give props to Nathan Lane--although we've all been mocking his "Oh, BELVEDERE!" routine these last few episodes, he was believably (and hilariously) panicked when he was told Mrs. Astor had just arrived.

r487, I was given A Cooper's book for Christmas. I enjoyed it. His chapter on Ava Vanderbilt is really well done.

If you want to know what happened to their fortunes in a nutshell, two words: Income Tax. Money being squandered by do-nothing heirs didn't last long once income tax was introduced.

The Vanderbilts were given the largest fortune in US history by the two original patriarchs, Cornelius Vanderbilt I ("The Commodore"), and his eldest son William ("Billy") Henry Vanderbilt, to whom he left the lion's share of his fortune.

Billy's male descendants were the famous palace builders: William Jr., or "Willie," who married Alva and built Marble House; Cornelius II ("Corneil"), who built the Breakers; Frederick, who built Rough Point; and George II, who built Biltmore House. Almost none of them were very good at increasing the Vanderbilt fortune, and squandered most of it on their palaces.

R494 - However, May Goelet was happily married to the Henry Innes-Ker, 8th Duke of Roxburghe. The current Duke of Roxburghe is May's great-grandson.

R494, the Duke of Marlborough was not gay. He had a mistress when he was married to Consuelo and married her after their divorce. He also cheated on his second wife (with women)

R490, they're not the only ones. Marian is 30 in real life and playing 20-ish.

[quote] [R494], the Duke of Marlborough was not gay.

Which is why I explicitly said, "at least [bold]the Duke of Marlborough, who was not gay,[/bold] fucked Consuelo enough to produce two heirs"

Pay attention.

I like the idea of a Christmas special but I doubt it will happen. For one thing I think Season 2 will pick up directly from Season 1, no time jump. And Season 2 will probably take place in the summer of 1882.

I am not gay

^No. No, you're a homosexual and boring.

Downton got Christmas specials in large part because special episodes are a big part of Christmas day in the UK. Once everybody's stuffed and gassy and fairly pissed, there's just enough energy to sprawl on the sofa in front of the idiot box. That and the pubs close around six as a rule.

Yes, R505, and one Christmas was ruined for a lot of viewers when they killed off Dan Stevens’ character in one of them.

Oh, right... Pancakes a la Matthew... forgot about that. Dear Uncle Julian!

I, too, enjoyed this episode more than the previous ones. Lots going on! Marian is unbelievably stupid. When your good friend tells you that she is worried by Mr. Raikes, wouldn't you at least listen? I also really enjoyed the twist when Adams showed up to Newport and started competing with Oscar. I think it would be fun if they became real romantic rivals, especially because neither one of them likes women.

I'm still not clear on whether Miss Ainsley is really Mrs. Dixon. I thought they were just fellow employees; but then why otherwise would they collude? Russell's sentence on her was pretty chilling. I think it would be very, very difficult to escape his surveillance if he got the Pinkertons onto her and spared no expense.

She was referred to as Mrs. Dixon by the store. They said she was his wife on the podcast, too. If they clarified it in court, it could have gotten cut for time. They published the first two seasons of scripts for Downton. I bought the first out of curiosity and the second have enjoyed it. They frequently cut little sections of a scene, presumably for time. Funnily, it was usually some of the better lines that said more about character than plot. That could be what happened here.

[quote] Marian is unbelievably stupid.

she not too stupid to recognize a fat secretary buying fancy gloves though

Bertha getting the bum's rush out of the Astor house is still cracking me up. What a lesson for her.

Jesus, she kept the first letter to have something on Dixon.

Others would not call her Ainsly if she was Mrs. Dixon

The shopping was a pay off.

Are you people stupid?

^ I must be. That post doesn't make any sense to me.

You are.

Miss Ainsley was her real name. She was bribed by Dixon to steal the letter from George Russell, and part of her payment for the theft was that she could charge things to his name by pretending she was his wife since women could only rarely hold charge accounts in their own names.

What was not clear to me (I'm sure I just somehow missed it) was the explanation as to why Dixon was trying to send George Russell to jail.

[quote] Marian is unbelievably stupid. When your good friend tells you that she is worried by Mr. Raikes, wouldn't you at least listen?

I didn't entirely understand why Aurora Fane couldn't have just explained, "I saw Mr. Raikes flirt shamelessly with Miss Bingham at the Edison electric light exhibition." I guess both Marian and Aurora were rushed at that moment and it was a matter of some delicacy though--but that would have cleared everything up, and would have ended the relationship between Marian and raikes for good (though Marian would have demanded an explanation from Raikes).

So, he wouldn't go to jail.

My predictions for the final episode and beyond:

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*

POTENTIAL SPOILERS

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*

*

Since they seem to modeling the Bertha Russell plotline so closely on Alva Vanderbilt's life, I predict that Bertha will force Mrs. Astor to publicly acknowledge her and accept her next episode the same way Alva forced Mrs. Astor to do so in real life in 1882. Mrs. Astor's favorite child Carrie loved dancing more than anything, and longed to perform in a quadrille at the huge costume ball Mrs. Vanderbilt threw in 1882. Mrs. Vanderbilt initially did not invite Carrie Astor to the ball after Carrie had practiced the quadrille with her friends and bought a costume for it, and her reason was that she could not invite Carrie because her mother would not socially acknowledge her.

So the legend goes that in the days right before the ball, Mrs. Astor, faced with her heartsick favorite child's anguish, had her footmen deliver her calling card to Mrs. Vandebilt, and so within the hour Mrs. Vanderbilt had her footmen deliver invitations to both Carrie and her mother to the ball. Mrs. Astor did attend the ball with her daughter, and was seen talking with Mrs. Vanderbilt in front of high society, and a delighted Carrie got to dance her quadrille. Thereafter since Mrs, Astor was publicly seen with Mrs. Astor, the Vanderbilts were considered fully accepted into old New York society.

So my educated guess is that that's exacly what we'll see next episode, although to make it more dramatic it looks like Fellowes will have Mrs. Astor come herself to the Russell mansion to demand of Mrs. Astor why she has not invited Carrie to the ball.

That should be it (thank God!) for the plot,line of getting the Russells accepted into high society, because once Mrs. Astor acknowledges Bertha, she's in forever. So I predict next season will focus on Bertha trying to marry off Gladys to a European aristocrat, even though that didn't happen with Alva and her daughter Consuelo for another eight years after her big costume ball.

But what about the wandering valet??

I think the woman the Valet is stalking will turn out to be his long lost daughter

I think that seemed pretty obvious in last night’s episode.

[quote]the explanation as to why Dixon was trying to send George Russell to jail.

He couldn't care less about that. Dixon was embezzling. period.

But how does Dixon's embezzling relate to the railroad crash? And why would the exposure of Dixon's embezzling exonerate George's responsibility for the crash?

It's like they just don't think they need to explain these things; a true McGuffin. "Oh, don't worry, viewers! The evil fat lady was fired but sexy George is OK and won't be ruined. Bertha can still wear pretty new dresses."

he bought faulty, cheap equipment. It was repeated in like 3 episodes.

turn on the cc, gramps.

In the episode after the crash George said the vehicles involved had substandard axles. Dickson was in charge of the build or maintenance. He skimmed money off the process by accounting for new product but using substandard.

There are some flaws in your detective work, r441. I don't know which poster you *think* I am, but I am 100% sure it's not me. I can't think of any "harsh" remarks I've made in all my years sporadically posting here.

But, you do you. Think what you want.

Now, back to discussing fish forks and duplicitous stenographers!

Whose job is it to create the next thread? Is there some footman or scullery maid we could delegate this task to?

Anyone's. Can't you? I can if not.

It’s a tad premature for a new thread. But I think it would fall on the secretary.

John is getting really whiny. I think I'll dump him for one of the Russell Family's footmen!

I hope in a way Gladys does marry one of the gays. Downside, the sex, but it always fades anyway. Upside, what gay wouldn't want to fix those awful clothes and that ratty hair? She may be horngry but she'll look great!

FYI: Larry Ellison (Oracle Corporation) owns Beechwood (Astor mansion) in Newport RI

[quote] But how does Dixon's embezzling relate to the railroad crash? And why would the exposure of Dixon's embezzling exonerate George's responsibility for the crash?

Russell paid for quality material to be used, Dixon used cheap material and pocketed the rest. The cheap material caused the railroad crash. Dixon, with the help of lady stenographer friend / co-conspirator Ms. Ainsley, faked a letter blaming Russell for making him buy cheap material.

Already explained twice at least. Do only stoopid people watch this?

I think the handshake between Agnes and Peggy is a sign of things to come. I suspect Peggy is going to find out her father sent the baby away, and Peggy will bring the baby back and be thrown out by her father.

She’ll then find herself back chez Agnes, with the baby in tow. The line about Agnes having lost her own baby is giving her a reason not to be able to turn Peggy away with her’s.

[quote] Although what she could actually do is sneak out and move to another city under a different name and work there as a a stenographer under a different name. It was very easy to change your identity and move in those days as long as you were careful.

Even back then, a new identity cost a lot of money, and Russell made sure she knows that Russell's goons watch her every move. I don't think she had the funds ready to disappear and show up somewhere else with a new name.

I have no idea what you are calling me! Ms??? What's that?

I think it would have been funny if she had said, meekly, "Are you saying that you would hire me to scrub the floors at Russell Consolidated? When can I start?"

Perhaps Agnes could snap up Miss Ainsley to replace Peggy? Or better yet, to replace Armstrong?

I'm not sure it does r537. I think you just have to go to some town in the barely developed West and set yourself up as a new person, with a new background, and a new name. I think that was still one of the major attractions of the West, still, at that time. A chance to kill your old life and start a new one, with a new identity.

Miss Ainsley would obviously have to leave NYC though, where everybody seems to run into everybody at the local Bloomingdale's.

Especially Big Mouth Marian r542.

r541, in Aisley's case she's under surveillance by whoever Russell hired. No matter where she would move, she'd be followed by them, and they would ruin any attempt of her getting a proper new job. We know Russell is ruthless and vindictive to those who cross him. He will spend a lot of money to ruin her life.

Well that's what stagecoaches and Colt 45s are for, r544. Okay, now I'm getting obsessed by the Adventures of Miss Ainsley miniseries.

Goddamn Pinkertons, take that, bitch!

Who's the rectal fissure on this thread calling people "stoopid" and "grandpa" because they didn't fully understand a plot point that was very poorly explained?

A number of posters here were confused by it, so you can bet a huge chunk of the viewing public were, too.

It's shoddy writing, and there's quite a bit of it in this series, far more than in "Downton Abbey." Fellowes is an imperfect auteur and this is his worst effort yet. Personally, the only reason I'm watching is to come back here and trash it with you bitches. Without DL, I'd have let this one go before the second episode .

Trash knows trash.

The writing is absolutely not worse than the Downton Abbey writing. How many times was Bates accused of murder?

Yeah, I kind of agree r546. I am disappointed in the whole resolution of the Peggy Scott thing. That whole, don't worry, everybody, she was totally like married and did nothing wrong and Dad overreacted and she is just the perfect little creature I need her to be.

Oh fuck that noise you sad twat, Julian. She was a horny teenager who had sex with some guy who ran off and then Daddy blew a fucking gasket and found you and told you, no, you can't keep the kid, you are coming back with me and we are ditching that bastard.

And now, later, you regret it and will spend the rest of your life finding him. But you are not 100% innocent in this whole fiasco. We like you anyway. We don't need to be saved from any complicated feelings about the whole situation. It's okay. We are not all 12 years old and aren't traumatized by the thought of imperfect people.

Peggy.

I swear

So, you geniuses defending Julian's brilliant writing, why wasn't Miss Ainsley thrown into jail?

Bloomingdale's was a low end store in those days. Fashionable people would be going to Altman's or Lord & Taylor, much as they did many decades later.

[quote] You’re correct that was Chateau Sur Mer, standing in as Beechwood.

Isn't that where the Adams boy said he was staying? I guess that was a little Easter egg from the scriptwriter.

it indeed was

"So, you geniuses defending Julian's brilliant writing, why wasn't Miss Ainsley thrown into jail?"

She wasn't even on trial, George was

It wasn't a trial, it was a hearing. Uncle Julian is so.... Uncle Julian. He can play about with Chateau Sur Mer or come up with a gay Adams or use the name of real designers in a line about George's office, but he can't give 80% of his characters much to do and he can't come up with a clear explanation for a twist. Someone's thinking less about writing and more about his upcoming trip to the south of France.

r555, I realize she wasn't on trial, but when all was revealed, why wasn't she arrested and thrown in jail as an accessory to the murders of all those Russell Co. victims instead of walk free to mop the floors of NYC?

^ LOL. Well phrased. They said it was being referred to the prosecutor. It was a good twist, badly written because there is a fair amount of confusion. But hurrah! Millions have been found again in the nick of time to save Downton again in the nick of time. Now where is my suncream and my passport?! Golly, I'm exhausted. I don't know how I do it!

Being a bitch isn't a crime. It was Dixon who was embezzling

Old but I love how they send up Fellowes in this, with Simon Callow playing it. (I just twigged that's Olivia Coleman as O'Brien.)

According to r533, Miss A "faked a letter blaming Russell for making Dixon buy cheap material."

In other words, an accessory to the crime of murder. Arrest that woman now!

[quote] "So, you geniuses defending Julian's brilliant writing, why wasn't Miss Ainsley thrown into jail?"

You cannot throw people in jail unless and until the police have brought charges against them. The judge said something like "I expect to these people in the court room very soon" immediately after he exonerated George.

*I meant to type, ""I expect to see these people in the court room again very soon"

Of course, we'll never see them again, unlike the Streeplet and Aardvark-faced Gladys.

Oddly, Oscar looks more like George Russell than his own son.

I was late to this show, but I've enjoyed it. Fluff, but really entertaining fluff. I like nearly all the characters for different reasons.

The inside scoop is that Miss Ainsley is doomed to being a hand maid to bratty little rich kids, after changing her name to Dorota Kishlovsky.

Larry is dreamy, am I the only one?...

r568, no, I think he's hot, too

So, is Bertha’s evil maid just gone now, then? What happened to her storyline of seducing George. It is a weirdly truncated storyline if she doesn’t return somehow.

R568, hands off Larry! I’m the man he’s going to marry!

He looked especially cute at the tennis court.

I love what they did with the Peggy arc. I am of course not ignorant to the fact that much racism existed in that era - duh. And they've hinted at it and mentioned it in passing. But I think smartly for this show, they don't dwell on it. Instead, they show relatively "gilded" Black people. Educated, ambitious, and with their own family dramas.

Many of the critics have said they hope that in the second season they show more of the wealthy Black community Peggy belongs to, r572, and I agree. Denee Benton and Audra McDonald are so terrific I'd love to see more of them.

[quote]His chapter on Ava Vanderbilt is really well done.

You know why? Because Anderson had a well-publicized co-writer [on the cover] and she wrote everything of substance. He only wrote what he knew - the last few chapters on his own parents and himself. The "voice" is completely different, and the writing, is, well... simpler.

Maybe Marian will fuck her life up with the elopement and end up working for Peggy’s family? The thing is though she has no talent, I wouldn’t even let her count out pills at the pharmacy or make change there.

[quote] The thing is though she has no talent,

That never stopped anyone in her family before!

You boys already forgot about me? It's clear Julian did.

Clara, we just assume you're off scissoring with the widowed and extremely bitter Mrs. Morris.

Marian wants to elope with Raikes because she's horny.

We're coming to the end of this thread, so I've started another one.

Sesshie needs a walk-on! With cats.

[quote]Sesshie needs a walk-on! With cats.

Who's Sesshie?

Try this one, see if it works better.

I like how Agnes has that old money abolitionist streak and walks the walk.

Is this a thread six or seven?

r579, well, lemme tell you right now, if I were heading down the road to perdition I'd require that that sexy raises take me, no USE me in every way possible. and doggy-style is a requirement

G, workwise we're outperforming you by 2:1.

Fellowes made the female lead in Downton Abbey an American because he wanted Gillian Anderrson. She turned him down.

Did she really turn him down for this as well?

Lots of wrapping up to accomplish in this Monday's Finale:

The Revenge of Turner the Hussy Ladies Maid, The Revenge of Mrs. Morris the Grieving Widow, The Revenge/Possible Arrest of Miss Ainsley the Corrupt Stenographer, The Reveal of the Wandering Valet's Mysterious Lady, The Reappearance of Armstrong's Unpleasant Screeching Mother to Remind Us Why We Need to Love Armstrong, The Solution of The French Chef's Mysterious Dark-Haired Alley Assignation and the Exposure of Peggy's Midwife and her Lost Little Boy.

Not to mention Bertha's Confrontation with Mrs. Astor, Raikes' and Marian's Elopement, Jack the Footman and the Little Irish Maid's Burgeoning Romance, The Polish Cook's Gambling Debts, More of John Adams' Outrageous Flirtations and The Quadrille with Agnes, Oscar, Larry, Carrie Astor, Mamie Fish and The Dancing Master. Oh, and More of Ward McAllister and his Quince-faced Wife. And more Butler Cuntlery.

I'm sure I've left something/someone out.

Oh, don't worry, R589... I don't!

R589, too back your post came at the end of this thread. Many will not see it.

What I find fascinating about your post is that you mentioned nothing about Aunt Agnes and Aunt Ada. For supposedly being main characters in this show, they have no stories and no drama! Their sole purpose is to react to the stories of others. Basically, I guess this means that the lives of a widow and spinster are over and there is nothing left for them to do.

Get to work on that, Julian.

Darling, I find creativity is best always looking forward, though. To the cheques, for example. People want new and exciting not a rehash of something that's happened already. Unless it's Bates in jail. Or Downton on the skids, with a last minute fall of plunder from the sky...

Now I think on it, was tremendous fun watching Bertha here's your hat, what's your hurried out of the Astors, wasn't it?

I love Mamie Fish.

Mamie Fish is the Datalounger in the story.

She is a cunt's cunt.

R588 is the Gillian Anderson troll. No, she was never considered for The Gilded Age

Who is this Gillian Anderson gal? Are you all talking about that "X-Factor" girl? She can act? Really???

But Gillian Anderson’s initials match the show, it must have been written with her in mind!

She's too old for Bertha but is she old enough for Agnes? Anyway she'd find Fellowes writing too boring given the kind of stuff she does. (not arguing whether she does it well or not but it's everything from crime drama to Tennessee Williams to Sex Education... has she even done hem to the floor costume drama?)

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