HBO's The Gilded Age: Thread 5

Link to the last thread.

How rich is Agnes?

She’s got it all, baby

I keep watching just for the upcoming sex scene with Pumpkin.

LOL @ the baseball question.

[quote] I keep watching just for the upcoming sex scene with Pumpkin.

Even I won't do it with that bitch maid.

[quote] How rich is Agnes?

We don't know for sure yet.

I would guess "Rich, but not that rich" or she could afford to leave some money for Marian (whom she seems to care for genuinely) rather than leaving it all to Oscar, as she says she plans to do.

Rich enough to sustain a big house, various relations and an impressive roster of servants. A lot of people work in that house. They don't see to want for much but (compared to across the street) they don't live large. They sure aren't Russell rich.

I gotta admit I am looking forward to Agnes storming the Berthacade... only because I'm so curious as to what makes her finally lose her shit.

I've recorded it and fell asleep each time I watched. Slow moving, stiff, boring, predictable. Cancelled the remaining recordings.

So irrelevant compared to the horrendous shit we're experiencing in life right now. I've had it with over-indulged rich people. One of those dresses would have kept a poor family in food for a year. Enough.

[quote] I've recorded it and fell asleep each time I watched.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

More of Oscar and his hot bf!

Please, R11, I've got 35 other characters to shoe horn in and I can't remember their names either!

You keep complaining but you keep watching.

Turner is crazy. That will not end well.

It’s amazing how many servants they had for completely unnecessary and mundane tasks (standing and watching them have dinner, for example).

Why if you actually fell asleep during all five episodes, would you not only keep insisting on watching, but also come here to complain that this show is too trivial for you to watch in light of current events?

Look like posturing to me.

R10, that's why I cancelled the recordings, I stopped watching.

I agree -- I think the 5th episode was it for me. I'm done. I DGAF what happens to these people.

Funny -- I also felt the same way about AJLT after the 7th.

Doesn't anyone make any good TV anymore?

The hardest thing about this show, i predict, will be having Peggy's world interact with Marian's world, since they were kept so apart back then. But so far they've done an okay job putting them together.

Why Are Robber Barons the Heroes of The Gilded Age?

I think the writer of that piece was awfully... generous in interpretations.

But this: "Carrie Coon—doing absolutely nothing to besmirch her claim as the greatest television actress of her generation—delivers every line as if her words are enrobed in velvet. "

Is that sarcasm? Do I misunderstand some subtext? Do I not know what besmirch means? Focus group of one but I'd never heard of or seen Carrie Coon before this (acknowledging many of you have) and while I find her inexplicably memorable in this and despite waiting for the character and the actress to really break out, I don't see the greatest television actress of her generation.

R19, you obviously haven’t seen The Leftovers. Her performance in that series is one of the greatest ever.

She’s so miscast and lost on TGA. Oh well.

I definitely have not seen that. i would like to. She's fascinated me, somehow, even though I find her and the character... constrained. It's just Fellowes' superficiality in writing and penchant for bloated casts.

Is The Leftovers still streaming anywhere? Is it worth watching beyond Carrie Coon?

[quote]you obviously haven’t seen The Leftovers. Her performance in that series is one of the greatest ever.

She’s also great in Fargo and The Sinner.

Is that ugly monotone voice Coon uses in TGA the voice she uses in all of her brilliant performances in other series?

And yet you keep talking about it. Just admit you LOVE ❤️ it.

When parents have among their children one who consistently disappoints, who do ya suppose they talk about most?

All three seasons of The Leftovers can be seen on HBO Max.

[quote] How the fuck is this Raikes character hobnobbing with the highest echelon of NY society when he's nothing but a no name lawyer from podunk PA? This is never explained.

That's been [italic]intentionally[/italic] not explained yet. We will soon see an explanation to the mystery... be patient.

I enjoy it, and yes, the robber barons were terrifyingly bad people. But even their descendants are powerless now, they are as fun to watch, marvel at and make fun of as viewers of an opera where Zeus and Apollo fight off for the honors of their lady goddess friends

[quote] It’s amazing how many servants they had for completely unnecessary and mundane tasks (standing and watching them have dinner, for example).

I don’t understand. How is one expected to seat oneself at the dining table if one does not have a footman on hand to hold the back of one’s chair?

Thank you for creating a new thread.

The Leftovers made me a fan for life of Carrie Coon. I don’t think I’ve ever seen her in a period piece before this, though. It's…odd. There’s an almost off-putting friction between her and the world around her. In a meta way, it kinda works because that’s what the character is experiencing, but I don’t think that was the intention.

I can't decide if Meryl Streeps ' daughter is ugly or not. Cynthia Nixon is hideous.

[quote]Cynthia Nixon is hideous.

She is a troglodyte.

I love this show, don't get all the hatred for it. I's pure entertainment.

R36 I agree, Im enjoying it. It’s just a soap opera.

But the grand pretensions make it very hate-watchable.

It sure gets a LOT of comments here for something that is supposedly so bad.

I realize I am out of the majority opinion, but I really like Carrie Coon's speaking voice in this.

I used to love Downton Abbey and would look forward to Sunday nights when it was broadcast -- and each season had only six episodes. The Gilded Age reminds me very much of Downton Abbey and so I welcome this kind of television. What they excel at is purely sentimental escapism -- the sets and costumes presented in exquisite detail, the awareness of history (even though they sometimes get it wrong), the interesting characters and the subtle messages about change and progress.

Sentimental escapism is all I need to be entertained.

I don't find this sentimental, though. Escapist, yes. And the Russells are highly watchable and the centre of the show, despite barely being likeable. He softens the edges with his love for his wife and fidelity. She barely has anything likeable about her though her, although her stubborness and determination are kind of hypnotic. I, too, love her voice, and the actress, though I bitch about lots else.

I would say, though, without some nuance she'll get boring, fast. Back about ten years after bustles went out, people loved J.R. and Alexis because there was often humour and mischief to their malice. Bertha's got all the charm of a bear trap, but I live in hope.

[quote]The Gilded Age reminds me very much of Downton Abbey and so I welcome this kind of television. What they excel at is purely sentimental escapism -- the sets and costumes presented in exquisite detail, the awareness of history (even though they sometimes get it wrong), the interesting characters and the subtle messages about change and progress.

"subtle"? No.

Mrs Carson announced at the start of every season or movie of "D.A", "Things seem to be changing here at Downton Abbey!" That's basically all she ever did.

And yet things stayed so much the same.

Who is Mrs. Carson?

Next season, Nathan Lane needs a brother. Matthew Broderick, perhaps?

[quote] Next season, Nathan Lane needs a brother. Matthew Broderick, perhaps?

He will also need a fast steed if he races at Saratoga.

I propose a two-for-one deal!

Is Che in this? And that creepy Coon woman? Best tv actress of her generation, my ass! Says Elisabeth Moss.

Carrie Coon's (horrible name) performance in the Gilded age evokes mayonnaise eaten on white bread in a dental office. Flavorless, bland, and entirely without warmth or charm.

[quote]Carrie Coon's performance in the Gilded age evokes mayonnaise eaten on white bread in a dental office. Flavorless, bland, and entirely without warmth or charm.

Oh, I thought that was Louisa Jacobsen.

At least Carrie Coon is attractive.......

Is Carrie Coon still married to Tracy Letts?

I think it's very interesting how they shoot the show out of sequence, complete the interior studio scenes on Long Island at one time, then do the on location exterior scenes at a completely different time. Now that I know that Carrie Coon was eight months pregnant in that scene with Clara Barton, I can't unsee it. In the same episode in other scenes, she is wearing her corset!

I had no idea about that ^. Will have to rewatch.

Also, must demand the best in the business when it comes to continuity.

[quote] Is Che in this?

If you mean Sara Ramirez: yes indeed. Xie plays Che van Rensselaer, the hottest Old Money genderfluid stand-up comic in all of Old New York, who loves to fingerbang Mrs. Astor publicly at the end of her performances before charity balls and cotillions.

Mrs. Astor will regret this. We cannot let new people in - and certainly not through the shameful font of descent.

Any gays in the show?

Yes, r55. One of the two key matriarchs, Agnes van Rhijn, has a closeted gay son named Oscar, who is having an affair with a descendant of John and John Quincy Adams.

Thanks, R56, are there any gay male actors on the show?

That I can't tell you, r57.

Just checked. It doesn't seem as if any of the major male actors are gay... or are at least professionally out of the closet.

Of the actors with smaller recurring parts, I found two:

Claybourne Elder, who plays John Adams (with whom Oscar van Rhijn is having an affair ), is married to a man.

Nathan Lane, who plays the famous social arbiter Ward McAllister, is of course gayer than an Ungaro spring collection of frocks.

So far, that seems to be it.

R59-You're just not trying hard enough.

Agreed. There's a principal who's gay but not making a ton of noise about it. If I Google found it, anyone could.

Why are you being so coy, r60 and r61?

Douglas Sills, who plays the Russell’s French chef, is most certainly gay.

Everybody has to start somewhere, folks.

He's not exactly a principal, r63.

I overstated that. I have a theory about a principal based on following one Instagram page to the other. A birds of a feather theory. I'm not as sure I'm right as I was.

There are at least two others. One is bi.

R65, of course he is. He’s one of the regulars and his name appears in the opening credits. Pay attention.

[quote] Why are you being so coy, [R60] and [R61]?

Are you referring to the guy who plays the character of Raikes?

He never sucked MY cock

Since there's a second season, where do you think they can go other than Newport?

They could go to Saratoga Springs, where the wealthy also vacationed. Or I suppose to Jekyll Island in Georgia.

I’m enjoying it ..Carrie Coon was a great in the Leftovers she is good in this too

Why’d they have to bring in Nathan Lane he chews the scenery

I just hope he uses his good breeding and chews with his mouth closed.

Neither of the cunting butlers is gay in real life though you'd never know it from their performances here.

actors do that

I wonder if we'll see any bare backsides tonight?

Tonight? It's Sunday.

some services have sunday showings

I did not know that, R79. It always felt more like a Sunday night show to me.

Sunday FunDay

If the Russels were Jewish (as Morgan Spector is) then George would be circumcised.

Sorry, I just like thinking about his cock.

Wasn't his dick circumcised in that link to clips from his nude scenes one of the whores in this thread posted?

It's a Monday night HBO show.

It does not have new episodes on Sundays.

R67, who?

r85, don't bother asking.

r67 is playing the Cindy Brady Game: "I have a secret! I have a secret! It's for ME to know and YOU to find out!" I have no time for this as an adult.

Oscar's boyfriend has hot tits

I hope Oscar is the bottom in that pairing. Clearly if he is, he's a bossy bottom.

L'adams was wielding that cigarette like a Gabor sister with a feather boa. I think Oscar isn't the bossy bottom.

I agree, and Claybourne or what ever his name is seems the bottom boy in his real life relationship

R71 - Aiken, South Carolina for hunting & shooting???

“The Gilded Age” is Camp!

^ Thx. for that. I bellowed out loud!

[...]

Agree, r94, was it just too crowded? Of course, now that Gemstones is done for the season ...

I wait the whole day

So Mrs. Morris is cast as the villain. I wonder if Barton was as mercenary as she seems here. The American Red Cross has long had a tainted rep of one sort or another---slow to spend money given to them by Congress in the Depression, slow to modernize the blood supply, quick to ask people they've helped for contributions, horrible in many ways around AIDS.

Wow! These episodes get better and better, and I think E6 is the best so far. Denee Benton really shined in the first half.

Beyond that, the entire episode built up enough suspense that the luncheon scene actually provided a worthy climax.

Tension between George and Bertha makes me suspect that he will be tempted in the future. And it's starting to look like Larry is more than just a cute twink and might get a story arc of his own.

Well done.

I'm sorry to see Katie Finneran go. It doesn't look like Mrs, Morris will be back. KF deserved better.

It's booting right long. It's funny.

Christine’s head looked both skull like and simian in that last scene, that scared me more then her tone.

Is it my imagination or have the wiglets on all the ladies become of a most elaborate, artificial and outsized proportions? I fear the hair/wig crew is bored and having too much fun.

OK, R102, I thought the hair had a big episode too!

I could believe that Agnes wears hair pieces and wiglets, most wealthy women did in the 1880s, but must Baranski have the lush blonde hair of a 16 year old when it's down and she's about to go to bed?

R92 absolutely nails it. Besides, how fun is it to take in all these Broadway vets as they traipse around unspoiled New York?

What's become of Michael Cerveris and the wandering footman?

Did he get a concert gig?

Good episode. I thought Baranski was fantastic--I was certain she was going to lose it and humiliate both herself and Mrs. Russell in front of Ward McAllister, but she believably built to a ridiculous crescendo and then contained herself believably. Agnes's right: if you act on impulse when you're angry, you hold yourself up to ridicule.

The only downside, though, is that there still are no stakes for anyone. I feel still like nothing has really happened on this show yet.

I loved Mrs. Fish's tea party for her daughter's dolls. Apparently that was what she was really like, and she and Alva Vanderbilt and Mary Wilson Goelet jointly replaced Caroline Astor in the 1890s as the queens of high society. (No one was apparently big enough to replace Mrs. Astor by herself.) People in high society loved Mamie Fish's eccentricities, especially when she was entertaining, and her families (both born and married into) were of impeccable enough lineage no one dared mock her for them.

By rights, Bannister should be turning tricks at the original Chelsea Pier after that stunt, but I suspect we're entering early peak Uncle Julian, so all will be forgotten or forgiven. It's so messy, writing.

I did laugh at the Bertharaptor throwing a hundred bucks at him.

$100 in 1882 would equal over $2750 today.

$2750 could buy a lot of footman blow jobs.

The arguments between George and Bertha were well written. The first was longer than I thought it would be.

What are we supposed to believe Agnes thinks is happening between her son and the hussy maid? What did Armstrong whisper to Agnes?

agree r99. She should kind of hang around honestly as a reminder that the Russells really are kind of cunty. I don't like easy resolutions or sending inconvenient people away.

I loved the cunting of the butlers

Peggy’s scene with her mom was intriguing too, there is still something there, but we just don’t know it. Audrey Macdonald or what ever her name is is actually a sensible pianist, perfect for the scene

And I don't think Agnes would've charged across the street like that. That was awkward and stupid. Bad writing. Bad everything.

Julian needs an editor. Somebody to step and say, no, don't give in to your stupid impulses every time they crop up, like Agnes this episode.

While the friction between George and Bertha was predicted, would she really be that uncaring about the train disaster? It was written before that they were great partners during his rise in business. Bertha seems many things, but not stupid. Surely she must know that if George were to go to prison they would be completely ruined.

r116, yes it was fun but totally ridiculous and unbelievable. Are we really to be believe Agnes would leave her lunch and march across the street by herself just to investigate if her butler was there??

Who wrote the letter to Agnes? I think it was either Armstrong, or Turner. They’re both equally miserable enough in their own lives to do it, as a way to make them feel better.

And what was the writer of the letter to Agnes trying to accomplish? Who were they trying to humiliate or punish? So stupid.

I think we're meant to see some conflict in the Russel's marriage and something like this happened to jay Gould (a model for George Russel). It's actually refreshing to see her in full "grasping social climbing bitch" mode--it makes the character more interesting, if a bit one note. In true soap opera style, we might get a trial. All we need is a bastard and someone having years of amnesia. The teaser about Edison seems like yet another silly plot twist.

[quote],,,,Bertha seems many things, but not stupid.

She seems very myopic

I hated the character Mrs. Morris and didn't like looking at the actress playing her either, so I am very much hoping we have seen the last of her, although seeing her lying in the gutter at the end of the season would be nice. Her husband was being a criminal and got caught and lost his dangerous game. She has no one to blame but him. And she certainly would have taken the money if his scheme had worked out.

No, it gets on my damn nerves r119. That's the best part of writing, is when a character starts having actual characteristics. And the worst thing a writer of any kind can do is to ignore those characteristics and just yank them back into your story. We all know Agnes would never do that. We just know.

If it had been Armstrong the Cunty Ladies' Maid who ratted out Bannister, I think they would have clarified that, since she plainly gave away Oscar meeting with Slutty Ladies' Maid from across the street.

So it must have been someone else. Who? Denofgeek was sure it was Bertha writing Agnes, asking to hire away Bannister (which absolutely must be wrong); avclub thought it was Turner who sent the note. But could it have been Mrs. Morris?

The actress who plays Mrs. Morris, Kate O'Finneran, is listed on imdb.com to be in all nine episodes of TGA this season, so i would not count her character out yet as gone.

Mrs. Morris really seems to out-cunt them all, although she lacks Agnes' understated wit.

But again, what was the devious letter writer trying to accomplish? Surely not just getting Bannister into trouble?

But can we give three cheers for the little van Rijn footman (John?) for stepping up and serving lunch? He's awfully cute.

Of course it was, R128. It was obviously the Russell's butler who sent the letter.

Where was Oscar r129? He would have definitely appreciated all that effort, and rewarded it.

One of my favorite moments tonight was when Christine Baranski stormed into the Russells' entrance hall. for just a moment she allows her eyes to bug out--the Russells' house interior would have been ten times more vulgar than Agnes could have possibly imagined.

[quote] I don't like easy resolutions or sending inconvenient people away.

well then ya better stop watching this show because it's written by Julian Fellowes.

Ah-ha!

Raikes stole Marian Brook's "rented" home and railroad shares.

And the incident of being ripped off on the train platform was little pantomime echoing it all.

Me likey.

Here's who the writer of the letter to Agnes ratting out Bannister might have been:

Armstrong: Trying to get Bannister in trouble for sassing her about her prejudice towards Peggy

Church: Trying to get Bannister in trouble because he humiliated him by taking over the household

Mrs. Morris: Trying to ruin Bertha's chances forever with Ward McAllister by prompting a shit fit from Agnes

Turner: Trying to do the same to Bertha as above.

Clara Barton: Up to mischief just for shits and giggles. (OK, that's probably not very likely...)

But who of those possible letter writers would really believe Agnes would storm across the street to retrieve her butler????

It was Church. Knowledge, motive and opportunity. None more likely.

Can’t you just see clear Barton giggling in his garret because she put a bee in someone’s bonnet?

I definitely think it was church

Oscar and the lady’s maid is super scandalous.

A magically delicious episode! A bit too cluttered, much like the Victorian era itself, but still, enjoyable fluff. I didn't like seeing Agnes humiliated, she needs to kick Bannister in his elderly, British nuts, so disloyal! And now, Agnes thinks her fruit-flavored son is having an affair with a hard-bitten maid! Honey, if you only knew...

Overheard conversation between two china dolls at Mrs. Fish's party

Dolly#1 "Bertha Russell is a cunt."

Dolly#2 "NOKD."

R124 what are you talking about? If this is your theory then ok but why the link? It has nothing to do with that.

But even if it did, then that would be a spoiler and you would have ruined a major plot line.

Were you raised by wolves? Have you no tact?

CUNTING BUTLERS!

CUNTING BUTLERS!

Damn, r143, are the butlers going to be the greatest part of this show? Yeah, maybe.

[quote] While the friction between George and Bertha was predicted, would she really be that uncaring about the train disaster? It was written before that they were great partners during his rise in business. Bertha seems many things, but not stupid. Surely she must know that if George were to go to prison they would be completely ruined.

In tonight's "Inside the Episode" feature, Morgan Spector said that Bertha has so much confidence in George's ability to surmount business problems that it did not really occur to her that this train wreck could really be bad for them.

How would Mrs. Morris know Bannister was at the Russel’s house?

Three episodes left:

8 Mar. 2022 Irresistible Change

15 Mar. 2022 Tucked Up in Newport

22 Mar. 2022 Let the Tournament Begin

I'm guessing the final episode is Gladys' coming out ball (ironic, given Oscar's intentions), based on one of the publicity photos that shows Baranski and Nixon in ball gowns (gold and purple) and long white gloves in what looks a lot like the Russell's ballroom. Unless the whole neighborhood goes on a road trip to Newport. Quite why those two would start partying with Bertha I don't know (unless Oscar moves faster and better than he seems capable of moving), so maybe it is somebody else's ballroom in Newport. As I recall, there's footage of George and Bertha dancing at a ball so maybe I'm wrong.

Camp!!

They will be going to Newport for the final episodes, though we know the Russells don't own a house there yet. But Mrs. Fish and Mrs. Astor do, and Agnes and Ada probably do too (a tasteful one).

Yeah, that Church fellow was super ticked off. He probably wrote the note, trying to get him fired.

It’s funny when Agnes goes inside the house and is agog.

I did love how the blonde lady and everyone else, for that matter, tries to make Agnes feel welcome and tries to defuse the situation so that Agnes doesn’t look too foolish and addled. Loved how all the men immediately stood up for her.

Ah, gentility.

Plus:

Camp!!

The show is best when it's campy fun.

The show is not good when they try to be serious. Or, focus on the servants. Or, Meryl Streep's Youngest Daughter.

Also:

ENOUGH with Clara Barton! Don't Care!

The train derailment story is beyond stupid. Robber barons do not care about "bad publicity" or getting sued. A poorly maintained dam on a lake owned by the richest barons in Pittsburgh killed thousands of people in Johnstown and those barons were never held liable and didn't pay one cent in damages. A railroad baron isn't going to start panicking over one dumb train accident that killed 5 people. Trains wrecked ALL the time in the 19th Century!

The writing is still so ludicrous. Yes, Agnes marching over to the Russell's was FUNNY but it wasn't logical. She's all about propriety...those kinds of people don't have hissy fits, at least not in public. But, then again she's also magically a character who is horrified by "new money" and people climbing up into HER class, yet she is shockingly ok with Black folks living in her house and working for her as a secretary.

Logical and rational and believable characters and plots aren't hallmarks of Mr. Fellowes.

Luncheon is served!

I must say that for a white British gay man, Fellows presents a pretty great and strong black female character in Peggy. That casual shrugging off the horse carriage driver's racism scene was pretty great.

I think the show creates such great drama over, what the viewer might consider, trivial matters. I almost expected the two butlers to have a bitch slapping fight in a lily pond. My money is on Church sending the tattle tale letter to Agnes.

I don't think any other premium cable channel provides such high camp entertainment.

R151, I agree. A train wreck that killed five people was kind of everyday news in the 1880s, so it seems strange that George Russell would get worked up over it. Railroad workers and regular citizens were getting injured and killed by trains all the time.

r152, I think it's Fellowes' attempt to present conservatives as moderate. Ultra conservative in some areas, while rather progressive in others. Like, Agnes' support for Peggy balancing out Agnes' disdain for new money and holding on to the outdated status quo of old school high society.

George is right to take the accident serious, though. Especially now that he found out that he's being set up.

One of the things that always has bothered me is that Agnes would be, as of the 1880s, an old woman. Yet, Branaski has all this lush blond hair and a very tight face. Society women would never dye their hair and, of course, no plastic surgery. I know it's silly, but it always pulls me out of the show. (Of course, nothing in this show is particularly realistic...)

"I must say that for a white British gay man, Fellows presents a...."

R154- Are you saying you believe Fellowes to be gay????

Fellowes' wife was Dlisted's Hot Slut of the Day back in 2011

[quote]don't have hissy fits, at least not in public. But, then again she's also

she stopped herself though and remained in character

It seems obvious that Church sent the letter. Why else would he open the door to the dining room and let Agnes in when he knew that she was not an invited guest? She had never been in the house before and would have no idea where they were eating. He wanted to get all of them in trouble because he was jealous of Bannister.

clearly - in the behind the episode clip the actor mentions how pissed he is

I think it makes sense that Agnes would accept a well-educated, well-dressed and well-brought-up black woman like Peggy into her home. Black people are not going to replace the Van Rhijns. People like the Russells with their piles of vulgar new money, certainly are going to replace the Van Rhijns and their set.

This episode was so much better than those preceding it, I think. There seemed to be far fewer scenes, which allowed the action to be focused on the luncheon, which was a great choice. For once, all the characters seemed to be in the same show, moving in the same world.

I enjoy some of the double acts: the cunting butlers especially. And now that Agnes has crossed the threshold to the Russells, I really want to see Bertha and Agnes interact more too. I think there are going to be more than one alliance between the two houses. Agnes’s son may or may not manage to lure away young Miss Russell, but the real story is between Larry and Meryl Jr. It was striking that George noted approvingly that Miss Brook was already an ally of Bertha’s. He’s going to do her a good turn at some point. In any case, I expect series 2 will see the two households increasingly intertwined.

And I liked the idea that Meryl Jr should help Agnes find a new role in the evolving society. She is too formidable to spend her life in that gloomy drawing room. I hope the writers move her character into new scenes.

Bertha was much more likeable in this episode. The only weird discordant note was the way George snapped at her. I have no doubt that he is going to betray her before the end of the series, but the move from adoration to fury was like a switch being flipped. That was a soap opera moment, not really worthy of a drama which aspires to better quality.

I told you bitches I could see Oscar marrying Gladys 4 threads ago! How nice to see you're all catching up.

[quote]the real story is between Larry and Meryl Jr

Agreed, R165, 100%. Raikes is exposed for being as bad as he is, somewhere between an opportunist who marries up with somebody who does have money, to criminal, having stolen railroad stock certificates. I find that hard to believe, it's pretty out there for Fellowes.

Where is the certainty coming from that the last few episodes are all in Newport? I find it hard to square they'll leave the massive investment in sets for the New York houses to have everybody have new sets in Newport, and leave the Russells homeless. I know they shot there, but had thought at least some of the interior locations were doubling as New York interiors.

I thought the George and Bertha discord was totally sensible and the actors played the conflict well. He is not as completely hard as she is, which we've seen in his fidelity to his wife and his kindness to his daughter. He he seems to love Bertharaptor deeply, yet has some appreciation of the absurdity of her single-mindedness. At some point, her relentless ambition has to piss him off. She let him down. He snapped.

How is Raikes getting invited to all of these events? He lacks the money (we guess) and the family name to be asked to the opera over and over. His background is murky so his character is confusing and doesn't really fit.

Exactly, you'd think Bertha would want to kill him. Or adopt him.

The ex-governess Turner I think, since we're seeing she's in cahoots with Oscar VR.. Her presence there is so transparent for the plot.

Isn't Turner the slutty maid, not the ex-governess? Wasn't the ex-governess absent from last night's episode?

You're confusing me, r171.

yeah, I think the ex-governess is just gone and can't imagine why she'd reappear.

The maid on the other hand is still lurking around, no doubt plotting her next big naked surprise!

I thought Ex Governess was demoted to maid because of her gaffe with Mr. Russell?

Gladys' governess was fired (we see Gladys saying goodbye to her outside, getting into a carriage), and the kitchen maid was chosen to be Gladys' lady's maid. Bertha's lady's maid still holds her position, because George didn't rat her out for sneaking into his bed.

[quote] "I must say that for a white British gay man, Fellows presents a...."

[quote] [R154]- Are you saying you believe Fellowes to be gay????

Fuck, I thought he was gay, as in out and proud conservative gay. So sorry.

R99, Kate Finneran is in the next three episodes.

I saw Kate Finneran play Mrs. Hannigan on Broadway.

R176 - I just wanted to make sure that there was not some announced "coming out" that I had not heard.

I saw Kate Finneran play Poppy in two episodes of Frasier.

I saw Kate Finneran dancing in The Ramble with the devil.

Ah, but did she dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?

I saw Kate Finneran in a revival of Noises Off on Broadway. I don’t think she deserved a Tony for that performance but she deserved something for putting up with Patti LuPone.

Wasn’t she nominated for one for that performance, R183?

I assumed it was the shit-stirrer played by Debra Monk who sent the note

How would she know?

As a lawyer, Raikes would be seen as a suitable guest even without his own fortune. Add that he’s attractive, charming and single. I could see him being invited to parties, yet not seen as marriage material for the 400.

Keeping all the servants straight:

THE RUSSELL HOUSEHOLD

[bold]Gladys's governess[/bold] is gone--she does not work for the Russells anymore. Bertha Russell fired her for allowing Gladys to meet clandestinely with Gladys's suitor, Archie Baldwin, whom her father George bought off last episode.

With the departure of her governess, one of the Russell house's maids, [bold]Adelheid,[/bold] was promoted to Gladys's personal ladies' maid. (This is a big step up for Gladys--this is one of the things wealthy young women get when they advance to adulthood. It's also a big step up for Adelheid career-wise.) Adelheid is an eager beaver and takes Gladys's side against her mother, whom she has referred to as "the dragon" to the other help.

[bold]Mrs. Bruce[/bold] (Celia Keenan-Bolger) is the Russells' housekeeper. So far we know nothing about her other than that she has been helpful to both Gladys and Adelheid in promoting to the latter to Gladys's personal maid.

[bold]Monsieur Baudin[/bold] (Douglas) is the Russells' French chef, and is a walking ethnic stereotype. Zut alors!

[bold]Watson[/bold] (Michael Cerveris) is Mr. Russell's personal valet. He has a mysterious secret which causes him to follow someone around.

[bold]Church [/bold]is the Russell's' American butler, who came with them from wherever they lived before New York.

[bold]Turner[/bold] is Bertha's (resentful) ladies's maid. She was hired just before the series began because she was a personal ladies' maid in a Knickerbocker family household, and Bertha has hoped she can help her learn the roles about what to do and not do in NY society. She came naked into George Russell's bed, trying to seduce him. he rebuffed her, but now she is taking bribes from Oscar van Rhijn to spy on the Russells so he can win over Gladys. Turner's clandestine meeting with Oscar were noticed by Armstrong (see below), who reported them to Agnes.

In addition, the Russells have multiple footmen and maids, although Adelheid is the only one yet to have received a storyline.

I very much enjoyed the inspection of the footmen.

THE VAN RHIJN HOUSEHOLD

[bold]Armstrong[/bold] (Debra Monk) is Agnes's personal ladies's maid. She's the sour one who has the mean invalid mother living in the tenements, and who is out to get Peggy because she (Armstrong) is a racist and cannot stand to see Armstrong valued by Agnes and the rest of the family and staff. She just ratted out Oscar and Turner's relationship out to Agnes, although it is not at all clear why she would do that since she has had no dealings with Oscar and Turner so far.

[bold]Mrs. Bauer[/bold] is the Van Rhijn cook. She has a strange Northern European accent that is supposed to be German (according to the HBO website for the show) but seems to wobble. She got in trouble for her gambling problem, and is now paying off Ada to offset the balance on her gambling debt Ada paid.

[bold]Bridget[/bold] is the Van Rhijns' uptight general maid, who was molested by her father.

[bold]Jack Treacher[/bold] is the Van Rhijn's hapless footman.

[bold]Bannister[/bold] is the Van Rhijn's hilariously cunting British butler.

[bold]Peggy Scott[/bold] (Denée Benton) is Agnes's personal secretary. She eats with the rest of the household staff, although she is considered on a higher level than any of them except possibly Bannister.

(So far I am not sure who helps Ada and Marion get dressed--whether Bridget does it or Armstrong does it. With all their hooks and stays they would need someone to help them do it--rich women had to have someone help them dress. It is even more unclear how Peggy gets dressed, since she also wears elaborate dresses that would have a lot of hooks and stays.)

I’d enjoy some Jack Treacher.

[quote]She got in trouble for her gambling problem, and is now paying off Ada to offset the balance on her gambling debt Ada paid.

Her handing back that dollar bill last night was some high and interesting drama. Good choice, Uncle Julian.

But who the hell in the van Rijn household is styling Agnes', Ada's and Marian's hair on a daily basis? Whoever it is, isn't getting paid enough for all those hours.

Armstrong is styling Agnes's hair: those are part of her duties as a personal ladies' maid.

For Marian and Ada, it is unclear who does it.

Isn't it odd that Bannister, who we'd have to assume has been retained by the old money van Rijn's for generations, is so knowledgeable about place settings, recipes and footmen ensembles for sumptuous banquets, which the family he's served has never had?

Those are the place settings for any meal, you heathen.

No. It was stated plainly the van Rhijn house serves in the English style. Livery, place settings, service are the same for one or two hundred. The food is the chef's problem.

You would think the other butler would have welcomed Bannister’s help since he obviously didn’t know what he was doing and had no clue how to pull off an English luncheon.

R184, she won the Tony for that performance, which I thought was nowhere near as funny and original as Deborah Rush’s in the original Broadway production.

[quote]Isn't it odd that Bannister, who we'd have to assume has been retained by the old money van Rijn's for generations, is so knowledgeable about place settings, recipes and footmen ensembles for sumptuous banquets, which the family he's served has never had?

Why would they have never have had banquets? Just because Agnes and Ada are not serving many banquets now in old age (while they're both unconnected) does not mean that Agnes and her husband did not have big dinners when he was alive.

"Sumptuous" ones, probably not, because that's not the style of the old Knickerbockers. But they would likely have had 12 or 16 over to dinner sometimes for Mr. van Rhijn's work at the very least, and also to entertain all their many well-connected relatives.

Do you suppose Bannister will be fired? Logically, he should be. He outright lied to Agnes to manipulate the situation to earn the hundred.

Probably. Then Bertharaptor will offer him a position, thereby further insulting Agnes and creating internal strife with Church.

When does Che Diaz start?

I want to hear Carrie Coons say "Hidden Valley Ranch"

I would guess there will be some reason Agnes will not get rid of Bannister--maybe because he goes back so far with the Van Rhijns, or because it would be so hard to get another genuine English butler in NYC, or both.

Bertha herself could've sent the letter, so Agnes would fire Bannister and Bertha gets herself a new butler who knows how to please her new friends.

On a clever show, that's precisely what would have happened, R206.

This is not that show.

Is anyone else bothered by Peggy's constant cuntiness? I know she's supposed to be a "strong black women" but puh-leaze. She snaps at EVERYONE, especially Marian, who is young/naive and only trying to help. If a woman of color acted that way all the time in 1882, she'd be lynched. I'm surprised her behavior hasn't spurred some real ugliness, not just disapproving stares.

No bare man butts. This is getting serious.

Anxious and angry George Russell is not as sexy as ruthless businessman George Russell.

I shall try to accommodate your needs next week, r209

[quote] No bare man butts. This is getting serious.

Since this is HBO, I'm sure the two butlers will have an ass-to-ass face off to settle scores.

[quote] She just ratted out Oscar and Turner's relationship out to Agnes, although it is not at all clear why she would do that since she has had no dealings with Oscar and Turner so far.

I think she did it because she was rattled by Agnes telling her off for trying to turn Agnes against Peggy.

My asshole squinches shut every time someone says, "luncheon". Goddamn this show is boring

[QUOTE] Since this is HBO, I'm sure the two butlers will have an ass-to-ass face off to settle scores.

Maybe they can re-enact the Jennifer Connolly double-headed dildo scene from “Requiem for a Dream” in an 1880s version of The Anvil basement for a crew of working class men. Bannister seems like an older gay leather daddy anyway. And the Russel butler is a very clearly a bottom.

Why do the people who hate the show keep watching it every week?

To upset you, Rose.

From Mr. Blackwell to the Razzies, people love bad as much as good, R216. You know that. What do you care if people hate watch too?

They're hoping to catch a glimpse of Aunt Ada's ankle, r216

The Cunting Of The Butlers II: Asparagus Wars

That table setting was surreal. I picture Nicholas Fairford experiencing a hands-free ejaculation watching that scene.

^ LOL

What about all the luxe freebies at each of the dinner settings? Is that how the Olde English did it, Mr. Bannister?

R222, the sketchier the pedigree, the more ostentatious the place setting.

Church is played by Betty Gilpin’s father.

So what were the little boxes? Snuff tins? Anus scrapers? What?

Cigar or cigarette cases?

They were indeed solid gold anus scrapers. Ward McAllister can't wait to show his to Mrs. Astor, because she'll want one too.

Of course, old money inherit their gold anus scrapers!

Anus scrapers were all the rage about the same time as the stereopticon so I think this might be an historical inaccuracy. I do like the period attention to Cynthia Nixon's teeth tho.

Anus scrapers? Gold? Not to be sniffed at!

R224, I had no idea. Jack Gilpin has been in everything, but I never knew his name. And Betty’s mom is Ann McDonough, who has also been in everything, including a stint on All My Children as weirdo Esther, the maid/nanny who helped Erica steal a baby.

OMG!!!! I read this and I laughed so hare last night i couldn't go to sleep!

and mad props to the queen who did the DL-style write-up of all the downstairs staff of each house

I know they are called footman, but do they deal with any other part of the body? Asking for a friend....

footmen always seemed like a nice place to be if you wanted to do some escorting on the side

^ Lord Beauchamp used to get busy with his footmen

The solid gold "gifts" (anus scrapers?) Bertha had hidden in the napkins at the luncheon were so reminiscent to me of Oprah's big dinner for the women who inspired her (like Maya Angelou) where she put expensive gifts for each of them (like jewelry worth more than $50K) on their plates.

Then as now, rich people try to buy their friends.

I'm the white Oprah

this isn't fabrication, some party at the Breakers one time had a small break in the dining announced by a bell. In the middle of the long table was an elegant low silver dish that stretched the length of the table, accessible to all, it was filled with sand. each guest was given a tiny silver pail and tiny shovel and was encouraged to "dig for shells" in the sand box and would find small rubies, pearls, diamonds to take home as a swag gift

This whole show seems to be about wretched excess, and they are doing that part very well. A massive mansion with legions of servants? A tea party for dolls? This is just the beginning...

I'm still chuckling over Nicholas Fairford's handsfree ejaculation.

I hope the show contains one scene set in a tea room intercut with one set in a tearoom. It’s HBO so at least it could show bare butts.

[quote]This whole show seems to be about wretched excess, and they are doing that part very well.

you do realize that is the point of the name "the Gilded Age" - Mark Twain coined it to refer to what was all gilded, but no gold. excess of wealth and nothing really to show for it

r241, I'm still giggling about an anus scraper

So will Bertha throw a big costume party, like Alva Vanderbilt?

Jill's nearly 70. What would her story be, the search for her glasses?

Obviously wrong wrong wrong thread.

I’m excited for the mysterious Jill character to arrive on Gilded Age and learn of her gripping story about the missing glasses!

Spectacles, please!

I wouldn't be too excited, R248, she might be played by Brenda Dickson.

I’m hoping Jill is played by legendary lesbian Broadway actress Cherry Jones who will sweep Aunt Ada off her tall lace up boots, while searching for the lost spectacles as Christine Baranski throws acid barbs at them about what Gilded Age ladies would and would not do. “I will not have any Alice Austinning going on in my house ladies!”

If anyone's going to unlace Ada's stays, it's going to be proven sex bomb Stay Diaz.

R240 – The Gilded Age society leaders were not shuffling with a full deck. So it no wonder that rich people wanted to socialize and party with the British aristocracy in England. This Mamie Fish person was nutso when it came to her parties!

Marion "Mamie" Fish, was a leader in New York and Newport society. When in Newport, she and her husband lived in a grand Colonial Revival house named "Crossways", where her annual Harvest Festival Ball in August signaled the end of the Newport social season.

When Grand Duke Boris of Russia visited Newport, Mrs. Fish issued invitations for a dinner and ball in his honor; the night of the ball the Duke was detained by Mary Wilson Goelet, a.k.a. Mrs. Ogden Goelet, Mrs. Fish's rival as social leader, at whose home he was staying. About 200 guests had assembled in the hall at Crossways, and when the hour for dinner approached and there was no sign of the Duke, Mrs. Fish announced that the Duke was unable to come, but the Czar of Russia had agreed to be her guest.

Suddenly the doors of the room were flung open and in walked His Imperial Majesty, dressed in his royal robes, wearing the Imperial Crown and carrying a scepter. The guests, including Senator Chauncey Depew, Pierpont Morgan, and Lord Charles Beresford, sank in a court curtsy, only to recover themselves with shrieks of laughter when they realized they were paying homage to a social climber named Harry Lehr. At another party, Mamie’s flair for memorable entertainments caused a stir in society on more than one occasion, but with one particular event in 1902, she may have pushed it to the brink. Conspiring with notorious bon vivant social climbing Harry Lehr, Mamie set Newport abuzz with the news of a recently arrived royal visitor, Prince del Drago of Corsica.

As a house guest of one of the Henry Lehr's "friends", the prince was extended an invitation to a dinner party held at the Lehr's Bellevue Avenue house, Arleigh. That evening, when the royal guest appeared, attendees were shocked to see that the “prince” was, in fact, a monkey in full evening dress.

R253, made me Google Crossways... interesting story... surprising modest in appearance from the outside...

I bet tourism in Newport, always probably healthy as a destination, gets the full on Downton effect in the good weather this year.

R254 - THANKS!!! Really enjoyed your link!

Jill is still looking for her anus scraper

I think, in some ways, we’re all still “looking for our anus scraper”.

some things are timeless

That should be a ballad if they do a musical version. Agnes, reflecting on the decline of the gold guard, could sing "Looking for My Anus Scraper" just before the big number that closes the first act.

maybe next season

Mamie Fish was a DLer: Her sharp tongue also offended as many as those who delighted in hearing it. On one occasion, a certain well-bred young man who took invitations to the best parties at Newport for granted, was not included on one of Mamie's guest lists. Irked by the snub, he attempted to embarrass her: "I never can remember the name of your house, Mrs Fish. Isn't it Crosspatch?" Without drawing breath, she retorted, "Well, sweet pet, it's a patch you'll never cross". Even her friend Harry Lehr was not safe: a known social climber and generally assumed to be homosexual, in 1901 he duped the wealthy heiress Elizabeth Wharton Drexel (1868-1944) into marriage. Mamie's barbed response to the news was to point out that his favorite flower was obviously the "Marigold"!

Maybe we should dump, or at least alternate, MARY!

You could get lost for a few days in the website I posted at R254.

I remember there was a discussion about Agnes' house vs. Bertha's house. Here's a link to the Mrs. Astor's house, which is similar in exterior to Agnes' brownstone but inside verges on Bertha's, in that it is has a massive ballroom and it's right over the top. Not what I expected.

how lovely!

If you're trolling, R263/R261, I've got you on block so maybe you can use your time better because it ain't landing on this end. You have a nice day.

those two aren't the same poster

r198 American exceptionalism

Would love to see one of the four hundos get a visit from wealthy relatives from out West. If they think East Coast new money is bad. . .

[quote] Is anyone else bothered by Peggy's constant cuntiness? She snaps at EVERYONE, especially Marian, who is young/naive and only trying to help.

Peggy's temperament is a lot like Agnes, she's not tolerant of the bullshit, but you don't have a problem with Agnes do you?

Why not ask that as a question instead of an assumption underlying an accusation?

r237 as someone who has worked on a movie with Oprah for several months I can honestly say she loves shopping and she loves gift giving. Her bodyguard would share with me that he often spent his weekends going shopping with Oprah. She would go to the malls (she'd stay until she was spotted and word got around), no make up and buy multiples of things she loved, to give away. Throughout the project she must have given out gifts a half dozen times as well as the "wrap gifts".

I should say not everyone received gifts during the shoot but her favorites did. The production assistant that "put her through the works" meaning the PA that hustled her through make up, hair and wardrobe each day and was tasked with getting her to and from set, got a pair of diamond earrings at the end of the show.

I can't say Oprah is perfect but she is generous and she does love gift giving.

r270 why don't you go play with your anus scraper?

It's your brain, R272, not mine.

[quote] Marion "Mamie" Fish, was a leader in New York and Newport society. When in Newport, she and her husband lived in a grand Colonial Revival house named "Crossways", where her annual Harvest Festival Ball in August signaled the end of the Newport social season.

Only the oldest families were invited to the Harvest Festival Ball... the New Money had to content themselves with attending Mamie's Once Around the Garden Ball held the next night.

There is NO WAY Agnes would go running across the street like a banshee.

But I don't think that character is particularly plausible anyway.

I cannot speak for anyone except myself but I have learned more from the DL "Gilded Age" threads about old NYC than I have watching the show. Thanks to all who have google and posted great information.

R276, it's funny because reading that website about the houses you get the feeling that Fellowes' research wouldn't be called exhaustive. There were some rich (no pun intended) characters at the time. Bertha should be a much more rounded character. She could have been one of the really great parts for women (acknowledging the writing for her was a lot better in the last couple episodes.)

Just saw casting notice on Instagram for S2 filming in Newport starting in May.

How do they get all of this turned around so fast? They only announced the green light for Season Two a couple of weeks ago. Do you think Lord Fellowes had the stories for Season Two laid out and written before they knew whether or not they would do a second season?

This show in particular must have a gigantic budget and a lot of logistical production challenges.

R279, they knew about S2 around November- i worked with the Covid Officer guy who was going from my show to GA after his December holiday.

Newport should be fun.

I hope some DLers show up to the casting sessions! We need some of you bitches on the show!

True r282. Come on you background bitches, get out there. Get to Newport!

[quote]There is NO WAY Agnes would go running across the street like a banshee.

but it was GREAT TV

[quote]Do you think Lord Fellowes had the stories for Season Two laid out and written before they knew whether or not they would do a second season?

In fairness, it's not like he gives it much thought.

But it wasn't r284. It just annoyed me. But maybe that's me. But I don't think so. It was Agnes being dragged across the street by bad writers and bad producers. It was just annoying.

I found it fabulous

[quote]I found it fabulous

Do you think she's tremendous?

I did NOT r287

What new character will show up and who will play him or her? You can really never predict.

Like how Patricia Arquette showed up on the last two seasons of Boardwalk Empire.

^^I meant next season obvi

Well.....for starters, next season I'd like to see a new female character who is as wealthy and desperate as Bertha but played by an actress with some wit and charm and talent.

Julian Morris as Oscar's new "friend"

Antoine Dodson as the cousin Peggy doesn't talk about

Next season Alok Vaid-Menon will show up as another of Marian's aunts, "Auntie" Fatima Brook, from Lahore.

She will teach all of New York high society a thing or two about sass, the Global South, and keeping it real.

Speaking of Pumpkin, we didn't see a single bit of his furry little face this past episode, even as he played a role in every one of the previous episodes. It would appear that once he served his purpose as a plot device, he was no longer needed.

Sarah Jessica Parker as the Russell's new racehorse

And starring Kim Cattrall as Samanthabelle Watling, a local madam who isn't afraid to roll up her sleeves.

Sarah Jessica Parker can play "Cousin Jill" who needs to learn about periods.

R298, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ...??!!

Oh sweet summer child at r299.

I'll be curious what Julian Fellowes does in the second season to address the complaints about the first.

The primary complaint most people have seems to be with Louisa Jacobson, but I doubt they can get rid of her because her character is the pivot on which everything else rests. She's the niece to Agnes and Ada, the friend of Peggy, Gladys, and Mrs Chamberlain, a major entry into society for the older Russells, and the love interest of Tom (and probably Larry Russell down the line). Can they bring in another young female character to put less burden on her shoulders since she's such a weak actress?

The other big complaint has been that Bertha's obsession with getting into society (and the Knickerbocker women's obsession with keeping her out of it) seems too superficial to be very interesting--it's like watching popular girls in high school be mean to each other. Could they de-emphasize that to make it more about Bertha trying to marry off Gladys, and George's business concerns? It might also help if someone got a serious disease, which always can make soaps seem more substantive.

R301, I don’t think the storyline of Bertha’s social climbing is too superficial. Literature and drama is full of such stories.

The problem is that Bertha is incredibly unlikable, so it is hard to be on her side. She is dour, whereas she needs to be a wannabe grande dame, with hidden depths. A better writer would give her a compelling backstory and a few amusing lines. Instead, she is just cold, and fairly lifeless.

^ Agreed. She's hard as nails and little else. Too much what, no why.

Again, they just need it to be centered on Morgan Spector and have him getting his naked ass eaten for an hour every Sunday by a Hot Guest Star of the Week.

And by a footman du jour.

[QUOTE] A better writer would give her a compelling backstory and a few amusing lines. Instead, she is just cold, and fairly lifeless.

They dropped a hint in the first episode. Bertha apparently has a sister she dislikes. Maybe she’ll show up at some point and fill Bertha in a little bit more.

Shades of Alexis and Caress?

I wish they writers would cut out all of the help's storylines permanently devote all of that screening to just naked sex scenes between Oscar and John Adams.

Also, what does Agnes do all day? As of last episode, it appears she mainly reads the papers and plays cards/solitaire? And perhaps also chess with her dolt sister Ada? She never attends any of the charity events or committees planning meetings her niece Aurora plans, aside from briefly showing up at the auction.... how is she not bored out of her mind every day?

Yeah. The Agnes character is so half hazzardly defined. But, so are all the characters. Consistency isn't a Fellowes thing.

And, have they explained why she seems to have control of the van Rhijn money and not Oscar? Or, does she? Is there a "Mr. Mooney" in the wings we haven't seen yet who controls their finances? The van Rhijns seem to be "well off" wealthy but not super wealthy.....Oscar seems to be keen on snagging a rich heiress so he has access to MORE money. And, are there OTHER van Rhijns out there?

R292 - Julia Ormond is the perfect actress to play a great character in Season 2.

Bertha is best when camping it up with gaymo mister mccallister

Agnes has “been there” and “done that” so all she really needs to do is write a BUNCH of letters via her smart as a whip secretary, Miss Scott (Ms if you’re nastay)

Hopefully Bertha will assume a sympathetic backstory in season two. And Marian will either meet a grisly end at Mr. Raikes's H.H. Holmes-esque hands or she’ll take a ride on a train with a suspiciously worn out axle.

I gather Carrie Coon could play a nuanced character, based on other people's posts. She just isn't given the scripts.

As for Agnes, I think if they had the understanding and term for agoraphobia in the 19th century, we would be lead to believe that’s what’s going on. Her stride across the street only seemed possible due to the white, hot, emotional distraction of anger motivating her, while otherwise she wouldn’t set foot outside the door. And while she was aghast at the opulence of the Russell entry hall, the sheer volume of space also seemed to overwhelm her.

But from what I understand her role was limited by the fact that she was simultaneously filming her law show, which she is the lead and doing double duty. So limiting her scenes to the studios in Bethpage most likely was practical. Even going to Lyndhurst to film the Fane luncheon scenes or Clara Barton scenes would have been a slog in time and energy.

Next season may be different if the shooting schedule don’t overlap. Also, I think we’re meant to believe she become complacent by society and the new money families will arouse her in anger, but then shape new ideas and acceptance as we move forward in the story. She’s going to have a second blossom8ng and perhaps a suitor.

posters here forget that Aunt Agnes went to a charity event in the first episode

[quote]The Agnes character is so half hazzardly defined.

Oh, dear...

new money talks like that

R314, it wasn’t in the first episode, it was the second or third one.

I would imagine a good two or three hours of Agnes' day are spent getting in and out of her corset, petticoats, dresses and wiglets.

Imagine doing all of that dressing up just to sit on the couch all day.

Oscar appears to be in his thirties, so why isn't Agnes nagging him to get married? Also, her vision of a future husband for Marian is confusing. The girl has no money (at least as far as we know), but a lawyer isn't good enough for her. Who exactly does she think Marian is going to snag on the marriage market?

R320 - Some rich new money guy that wants a pedigree for his children.

Edith Stuyvesant Dresser did not have any "real" money but she snagged George Washing Vanderbilt II (son of William K. Vanderbilt) and moved into Biltmore with no problem.

Agnes doesn't want Marian to be a long-term burden and also doesn't want to deal with riff-raff husbands. There's probably second string old money with suitable matches. Marian isn't as frumpy as Ada (and frankly less weird, though equally naive), so she probably would work as a match for someone like that.

Oscar looks like he’s in his thirties but he’s likely younger

Agnes also goes for carriage rides regularly and in the press photos she's in a ballroom definitely not her own. I don't think she's agoraphobic. The shooting schedule thing makes sense.

Back then lawyers were no more desirable than actors and other riff-raff.

R302, why does it matter if Bertha or any character is likeable? The question should be is she interesting.

If "likeability" is your standard, then forget about Clytemnestra, Lady MacBeth, King Lear, James Tyrone, etc.

Bertha needs to be either "someone we love to hate" or an underdog for whom we can cheer. Right now, she's neither. A good soap actress probably could take the character in either direction, even with the crappy writing. The direction probably doesn't help, but if she knows the story arc, Coon should be able to help give a direction to Bertha. Instead, she's ok when she's furious but otherwise she's pretty flat and her scheming is not worth our investment.

I think R327's point is more true than not. I accept she's supposed to be this great actress but it isn't showing here. Very good point that a good soap actress - any good actress - should be able to take the character beyond the writing. Mary was pretty one dimensional for a long time on Downton, but Dockery was able to suggest there was much more going on. I find British training creates actors who act with everything: not just the voice. In early Dynasty, Joan Collins did a lot with her expressions. Stephanie Beacham was a really effective with using her eyes. Dockery made a lot of faces that said as much as any snark. Coons, who I personally still really enjoy, isn't doing much if any of that.

R313. Unfortunately it looks like shooting schedules for Good Fight and Gilded are going to overlap again. GF just started and I think Gilded starts up in May so Christine will be doing double duty again

Well, it creates an opportunity for more Ada! You can't get enough Ada. I could watch an hour of those period teeth.

S2 must introduce the other New Money ladies and the competition between them all, rather than the Old Guard.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: It is so bizarre Boomer Dataloungers always explicitly demand every television drama be more like "Dynasty," as if that were somehow the gold standard.

If you're referring to R328, it was only an example of performing style. After season two, Dynasty was crap and Dynasty was never Golden Age nor should it be.

But thanks for your boomer prejudice. It must be nice to know everything at your age, R332.

Dynasty is just one example. Lots of shows have had people you love to hate or underdogs and actresses better attuned to their characters than Coon has been. Baransky, OTOH, is given little to do but makes the most of it. Coon is not the only one with her problems---Nixon cannot really get her footing and her accent changes with every episode---will she be an Edith who turns out not to be a crazed doorrmat or will will she be that crazed doormat. Either would be more interesting than what she's doing now.

Gladys arranges to have Bertha's bedroom painted with poison paint

Ada is kidnapped by a lookalike and hidden in the attic

Marian is abducted by a UFO

[quote]Dynasty is just one example.

Dynasty is the show you keep returning to, and it's an absolutely ridiculous comparison.

R336: I didn't bring up Dynasty. Someone else did. You're generalizing w/o evidence. You seem at least as dogmatic as anyone who brought up Dynasty.

Golden Girls = Gilded Age

I think Coon and Nixon are giving the best performances on the show. But I just want people to seem like real human beings. I do not care about "liking" or "hating" the character they play.

R336 - Alexis Carrington (Joan Collins) in Dynasty and JR Ewing (Larry Hagman) in Dallas are gold standard for TV villains you love to hate.

All others are measured against Alexis & JR. That is just the way it is. Take it or leave it.

R328 - Francesca Annis is another British who can and has done just about everything. I would put Penelope Wilton is this category too as she has done everything under the sun acting-wise including comedy.

^^^^British Actress^^^^^^

HBO can do better than basic cable family drama like Dynasty or Dallas. Would I change a million things on the Gilded Age if I were in charge? Sure, but my lazy fat ass devours every episode as it is now and loving every minute of it.

I never thought of 1900 as modern times but from watching this show, it seems like the 1880s/90s was the end of an era.

Everything from 1900 ish onward seems pretty much like modern society. Once you have electricity, automobiles and penicillin, you’re pretty much out of the “olden” days.

I do think this should be followed up by a deep dive documentary. The pbs one is good but tells the story from the industrial angle, but it does not go much into their private lives or ‘a day in the life’

r326 I agree, so many viewers think they can write a better script and they have no patience to sit back and let a story unfold. Reserved people like Bertha are usually intriguing to others but the DL crowd wants snark and hair pulling in the 1800's while complaining about every inauthentic thing they spot.

You bitches are tiresome.

I love the show but it’s silly how they give us a glimpse into the downstairs characters lives but they’re never fully explored and if they’re not going to go deeper they shouldn’t bother. The butler who goes on mysterious walks. The cook with the gambling problem. The young maid who was probably molested and the servant who pursues her. The miserable old twat with the mother who lives in squalor. Drop them and focus on the upstairs.

I thought Agnes storming across the street into the Russells' mansion was great TV too.

[quote] [R336] - Alexis Carrington (Joan Collins) in Dynasty and JR Ewing (Larry Hagman) in Dallas are gold standard for TV villains you love to hate. All others are measured against Alexis & JR. That is just the way it is. Take it or leave it.

I'm genuinely sorry your taste is so awful.

R341, as good as Lesley Manville is it should be Francesca Annis as Margaret in the next season of The Crown.

Casting put up a notice for someone to play a male 1880s tennis star shooting in Newport in May. Did they show off their legs and ass in them days? I doubt it.

They're not showing legs and ass in the new Downton movie, which is perilously close to the thirties. Though Tom Branson's basket will probably make an appearance in the long wool tennis pants.

For the record, I cited Collins and Beacham as examples of a style of acting that was multidimensional and engaging - it might not have been Mama Streep but it was watchable and entertaining - and I think Dynasty was good stuff for two seasons and that's all. From season three onward it got rapidly unwatchable, for me. I don't propose or desire GA become Dynasty at any time. Entirely different shows. Personally, I find the dresses and hairstyles in GA distracting, period or not.

And whether the poster upthread intended me or not, you're not snarking, you're just snide, it isn't clever, it isn't convincing and it makes a good thread with generally agreeable posters unnecessarily unpleasant. Maybe dial it back a bit, but I leave that decision to you.

Male tennis players wore baggy white pants in the 19th century.

Upper-class people just did not show skin publicly, unless they were boxers. And even then, society women would not be brought to see them box. It was a very puritanical time.

Were there upper class boxers, r352? I'm guessing part of the thrill was seeing those lower class bodies in the flesh, before sneaking down to the docks to see more.

I must admit, the Alienist/Angel of Darkness did a great job of weaving upstairs/downstairs classes together, probably because most of the stories involved the downstairs classes.

Have you heard of me, Mr. R353?

R354: and the cast was about one third of this overstuffed thing.

The DYNASTY/Joan Collins comparison is absolutely appropriate because Collins was an actress/personality who could forge a fascinating character even within the bounds of lousy writing and direction. That is what Carrie Coon is unable to do. And for my money, Baranski is also unable to do, at least on TGA.

These roles should be absolutely thrilling us by now with their shenanigans but they're both just dull, dull, DULL.

[quote] The DYNASTY/Joan Collins comparison is absolutely appropriate

No, it is not.

With all due respect, how is it not, r358?

I think that all the comparisons to Dynasty are a bit misguided.

The Gilded Age is more like a Victorian Golden Girls, pre-refrigeration.

Agnes, Ada, Marian and Oscar. And in this iteration, Blanche is actually played by a gay man.

If The Gilded Age is like any classic gay-friendly TV show, it is most like The Facts of Life.

Bertha = Blair

Mrs. Morris = Jo

Ward McAllister = Natalie

Peggy = Tootie

Agnes = Mrs. Garrett

Ada = Beverly Ann

Adelheid = Cousin Geri

If Fellowes had any balls he’d have written a scene with Raikes in a threeway in a bordello. Or Russell visiting a bordello. But I don’t think there was one bordello scene in Downton, was there? Thomas visiting a male brothel would be fun.

Enough about Dynasty!!!

Why shouldn't we discuss it critically? We are the people they are making the damned thing for. They're not making it for their own enjoyment, I would hope.

If they are putting it out there, we can say what we like about it.

I.E. Seems as though the Red Cross thieving and begging started right at the top and right at the beginning.

I'm currently reading ' "King Lehr" and the Gilded Age" by Elizabeth Drexel Lehr (1935) and it's very obvious this was a primary source for Fellowes, right down to the Statue of Liberty's hand at Madison Square Park and Aunt Agnes' "adverturers" speeches.

I recommend it - it's fast-paced and she does NOT hold back. I assume Oliver will do the Harry wedding night speech to poor Gladys verbatim. It's a mustache-twirling villain's monologue for the ages.

R364, you're allowed to be critical, although I wonder why the people who hate the show so badly watch it every week

You seem to be conflating the two.

I've been reading about gay men who lived during the Gilded Age like Howard Sturgis, Ned Warren, and the aforementioned Harry Lehr. They definitely had interesting lives!

Edith Wharton was friends with a lot of them - was she the first fag hag?

I would think someone in ancient Egypt, Greece, or Rome would be the first fag hag.

Probably making too much of an offhand comment, but anyway ... I don't know, r369, it just didn't work like that. There wasn't this big category of homos yet, certainly in ancient Greece and Rome and probably Egypt. Nobody was "gay" in that sense. The late 1800s actually seems about right for people to start being "gay" or "straight" and some women to start being fag hags.

There were definitely men who were exclusively into men and women who were exclusively into women before the late 1800s though

Yes, I'm sure there were. But dare I say it, Ancient Romans were sort of non-Binary. Okay that is the wrong word, but they knew how to find the booze and the boys but also the girls. It was all just a very different mindset. Men got to fuck and women and boys, at least any of lesser standing, got to accept their passive role.

A new thing I learned in a podcast that goes back to the show, was that the female sculptor of the Bethesda Fountain Angel, Emma Stebbins was in a Boston Marriage with Charlotte Cushman and modeled the Angel after her. Apparently, it was very disliked at the presentation and only found favor much later.

It's not true that ALL men in ancient Rome were banging both girls and boys.

That may be r374, but it was considered the normal thing to do. These divisions hadn't occurred yet, and nobody saw any need to invent them. That would all come much later. Even when Christians took over and decided all that homo sex made the baby Jesus cry, there still wasn't a category of "gay."

No, it wasn't considered the normal thing to do. That's a misunderstanding of history. The word "gay" didn't exist, but there were always "spinsters" and "bachelors"

Charlotte Cushman was the uberdyke of the 19th century

Yes, it was, r376. And actually I don't know if there were "spinsters" and "bachelors." Again, I think you are thinking in relatively modern terms, where people choose to marry or not, rather than families deciding that you are old enough to marry and hey, here's the one we've picked out for you.

The practice of same-sex relations exists since the dawn of time. Surely there were several words for it in ancient history, but they are lost thanks to religious institutions controlling history early on and establishing their version of it.

The practice of same-sex relations does indeed exist from the dawn of time. The idea that it puts you in some category is relatively new and very much dependent on a whole lot of other factors.

r380, true.

There were people who saw homosexuality as an orientation dating back at least to the early 1700s

Ogden Codman was another Gilded Age gay. And he was friends with Edith Wharton, too!

Was "Friend of Edith" the "Friend of Dorothy" of the 19th century?

The Bloomsbury Group thrived about 20 years after the TGA action and the male membership, whether married to women or not, fucked other men happily and openly. A lot of that had been encouraged in the best public schools and onward to Oxford and, especially, Cambridge.

[quote]"King Lehr" and the Gilded Age" by Elizabeth Drexel Lehr

Now I am too. Thx, R365.

I’m worried that if poor little Jack can’t get that kitchen girl to hold his hand, he’ll resort to the homosex!

I saw Katie Finneran in the 80's remake of Night Of The Living Dead.

Thank you for sharing r388

R384, i sure hope so

Isabella Stewart Gardner was another Gilded Age fag hag

Then there's this guy:

After moving to Boston to serve the Adams family, Dwight took up residence in a gentleman’s rooming house at 10 Charles Street where his lover, the writer and dramatist Thomas Russell Sullivan, also lived. The two men were not reticent about their relationship. They entertained together, were members of the same clubs, and went out in society as a male couple. They socialized together, for example, over private dinners with Isabella Stewart Gardner and her husband John L. Gardner at Boston’s Somerset Club.

Dwight corresponded quite openly with Isabella Stewart Gardner about his impulses and affairs, writing in one letter to her:

You would be amused could you know how in my secret thoughts of late I have been chiefly engaged in trying to penetrate my own disguise to find the real Dwight, for it is really ridiculous that I should all unconsciously have played a part so well as to deceive so many intelligent and respectable people. I dare not think of the time when they will discover their mistake.

In 1892, while Dwight was traveling to meet Gardner in Europe, Sullivan wrote to her about the sadness he felt during Dwight’s absence:

I mourn for T.F.D. who has departed this house and sails for your shores in two days... Sturgis Bigelow, M.D., has come in with hypnotic influence and carries me off to dine with him to-night with the resident literati and tutti Frutti... Don’t keep our librarian away too long.

Dwight and Sullivan were also frequently guests at W. Sturgis Bigelow's male-only nudist colony on remote Tuckernuck Island, though membership was not strictly limited to homosexuals.

In 1892, Dwight bought 121 male nude photographs by Guglielmo Plüschow and Wilhelm von Gloeden in Munich and bought more in London later that summer. In a letter to his friend Charles Warren Stoddard, Dwight bragged that he had gotten the photographs through U.S. Customs without being detected, thus preventing “confiscation and imprisonment.” “When you see my spoils you will comprehend my dangers,” he wrote to Stoddard.

In January 1896, while on his honeymoon, he visited von Plüschow’s studio in Rome. He was such a good customer that von Plüschow permitted Dwight to use the studio to take his own photographs of the models Dwight most appreciated:

Pluschow himself was not visible but I was given all the opportunities to see his collection, without, apparently, any expectation of [a] sale, by his German assistant. ... While we were talking who should come in but a very handsome, black haired & mustachioed Italian, quite stout built, broad shouldered, perhaps 24 years old, who seemed anxious to be noticed & very much in command of the place; & presently I learned that he was Vincenzo Goldi (sic) the subject of so many of our pictures. He posed for those in sitting posture on the wall, with a fillet round his head & with Edoard, the more beautiful youth, in an infinite number of others. I told him that I knew him from the soles of his feet to the top of his head & he immediately became most talkative, showing me all his favorite attitudes. We established such friendly relations that I have now the privilege of making photos myself in the Pluschow studio & of his models.

In another letter to her, Dwight described the breakup of an unidentified love affair, writing “...the period has come to that little romance in which I was so foolish as to indulge. You were right in your prediction. I seem to come out of it somewhat battered perhaps, & somewhat benumbed but quite patient & resigned.”

I know people like to hate on this show but I thought episode 6 was very good. The best yet imo.

I’m not saying Streep Spawn is the best actress ever, but I don’t think she is terrible either. She doesn’t bother me at all.

Streep spawn is meh and does nothing at all with the part. The only time half way comes to life is when she's delivering one of her implausibly snotty comments. However, I do think she is better than Coon. Coon is not connecting at all with her role and her scenes just grind to a halt for me.

Mmph... And so, the DL has saved itself once again in mine eyes... I had left this awful antiquated, old, and boring site months ago. After finally feeling free of its mundaneness I was drawn back to it when my friend Betty was stricken with COVID and I was interested in knowing how you other Queens were handling the news. Or, maybe I have just kept hope alive that this site would once again return to its glory days of yore.

I stumbled upon this thread. Unfortunately I have not read the previous 4 listings but I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this one! I just knew that such a show and topic would bring forth the best of DL. The actors, historians, the society/socially knowledgeable savants, etc. I am NOT disappointed!

The show is "hit or miss" for me at this point. But, I'm mostly enjoying it. I am now fascinated by, and with, the word "luncheon" and how it was used. I shall begin using it myself more frequently. Now, that's being the epitome of a Queen! LOL!!! The show is a catalyst in sparking my intellectual curiosity to learn more about the period and the people of the era. I never knew or even heard of "Bloomingdale Brothers". Nor, did I know about the Bethesda Park sculpture and the Statue of Liberty arm in the park. I've never heard of the Black newspaper publisher (whose name I now forget...), the Tripplehorne character that is based on a true life, etc I like how the show acknowledges but is respectful about race relations of the time. Not every single white person hated and/or demeaned Black people nor was every single Black person uneducated and impoverished. The show by no means excuses that period of race relations but adds more "color" to it, so to speak. I LOVED the "Doll's Tea Party" idea and will even do that for my niece and her friends (on some level) for her next birthday. Overall, I like the show and I enjoy it.

Some questions that I have out of curiosity;

- I wonder what the budget is for each episode? It's definitely an expensive production! -Wasn't Christine Baranski's husband from substantial "old money" -Does anyone remember what was served at "Luncheon"? LOL!!!

Finally... as an upstanding member of the NAACP, I demand that this "Coon" woman change her name!

Welcome back, r396!

We look forward to your posts here and on other threads (I'm guessing you're a former Theatre Gossip regular).

Why, THANK YOU R397! (one would think that Muriel would extend such a warm welcome. Is she still alive?)

No. I am not a Theater Gossip regular although I have enjoyed many of those threads. I was typically an original poster of and posted on some of the more salacious threads along with those out-of-the-way (but, thoroughly entertaining) threads like "How Often Do You Wash Your Bed Linen", etc.

Speaking of salacious material... Here's George Russell's (played by Morgan Specter) "Johnson"

Now, that THAT is out of the way... WHY has this thread been gray/grey-lined? Who could possibly object to such a thread and its contents?

"The Tea Party"

Melinda Byers: Melinda fell in love with the world of art at an early age. She vividly remembers as a four-year-old how beautiful it was when, while sponge painting, the red and yellow when mixed together made orange. With pencil and sketchbook in hand, she continued to enjoy creating images on paper as the years went by. Her art typically captures familial social moments (think Norman Rockwell) and what I like about her work is that she depicts Black children only in a positive non-stereotypical way. She captures the child's imagination.

So....maybe this was asked upthread but how the hell did Lawyer Raikes get invited to the Russell lollapalooza luncheon? Do they even know him? Or....if they don't, who would have suggested to Bertha that a mere lawyer was an appropriate guest at that event? Was Raikes also gifted with a personally engraved anus scraper?

And all this mystery over who in the Russell employment caused the railway accident? Unless it's the Patrick Page character (who???) what does it matter who caused it when we presumably haven't met this person?

R400, the question was never answered, but Raikes’s presence is a realistic touch in New York “society”: there are always going to be fakes, frauds and hangers-on lurking about. After all, all of these people, up to the Vanderbilts and Astors, are rather fake. They’re playing at being aristocrats. They’re not; they are descendants of crooks, spouses of crooks, or crooks themselves.

The mysteries about Tom Raikes are intentional: at this point, we're supposed to wonder if his intentions towards Bertha are honorable or not, and we're also supposed to wonder what he was doing in the Schermerhorns' private box at the Academy of Music, and why he was invited to the Russell luncheon. All will be revealed later this season.

I want Meryl Streep to play Marion for one episode. It would be an homage to our very own Miss Joan Crawford and her dedication to the craft when she helped dearest Christina out during her period of illness and inability to work.

I would also like to see Anderson Cooper do a small guest role in a future episode playing a Vanderbilt.

[quote]why he was invited to the Russell luncheon.

I thought he was invited because he was at the previous soiree and the Fane woman told Bertha to invite everyone that had attended that event.

[quote] Is anyone else bothered by Peggy's constant cuntiness? I know she's supposed to be a "strong black women" but puh-leaze

R208 = Tomi Lahren

R349 - Joan Collins is great actress because everything she is in is better and more entertaining because she is in it. You cannot compare film (which original streaming basically is) with broadcast television in regards to quality.

Joan Collins is a terrible actress. Entertaining, yes, but still terrible.

I'm already getting exciting (and hard) for tomorrow's episode!

Agreed, r407. She and Laurence Harvey prove that RADA is a breeding ground for stars with the right accent, not talent.

I saw one of her early British films and was staggered even more by her horrible acting than her breathtaking beauty.

R07: She was very good in that film with the giant ants.

Raikes Zelig-like presence initially seemed like a clumsy plot twist, but might turn out to be one of the more interesting parts of the series. I'd agree that hangers-on often turn out to be the most successful arrivistes, although they sometimes blow everything and fail, but that still makes them more interesting than Bertha. Bette White as Sue Ann Nevins would have been a great way to make Berth ---it's a shame that there aren't more accomplished villianesses in the right age group to play the part better.

Eva Green for Bertha.

Agnes and Ada remind me of spinster in-laws in Massachusetts. Agnes needs to be nominated to Datalounges Hall of Cuntery.

Heads have rolled for less.

"My thoughts exactly."

I love that they named the dog "Pumpkin". It's a reference to the social registry, an annual list of the "right" families from "respectable" industries. The book is black with pumpkin lettering. It still exists to this day since the Gilded age.

Speaking about the place settings, which are theoretically, not only English, but Victorian.

At no time does Agnes' Butler curl a lip in S1E4 about the FISH KNIFE. The English found the Fish Knife to be particularly parvenu to the point that Queen Victoria used a fish fork and a bread pusher. If you rerun the Gosford Park setting the table scene, you will see that at Gosford Park, they used TWO forks for the fish course. Cue-up the video to 21:45 and you see the explanation. Fellowes wrote that scene for a reason.

I think that Fellowes is just fucking with Americans. EGREGIOUS!

I wish Julian was as obsessed about his plotting as he was about fish forks and bread pushers.

Queen Dowager r416 has spoken!

[quote]If you rerun the Gosford Park setting the table scene, you will see that at Gosford Park, they used TWO forks for the fish course. Cue-up the video to 21:45 and you see the explanation.

To paraphrase another Gosford line: But none of us will ever do it.

More to the point, after this week, I am so looking forward to Monday night and I don't care what happens in the show. Calgon, take me away (from the Russians.)

Heads have rolled for less...

Sorry, Gosford....

Here's some fun. A scene being filmed and why certain locations were chosen.

Thanks, R422. Interesting. I drive through Troy a couple times a year and had no idea the centre was so preserved. The bit I drive through looks... tired. But I'm off the interstate, driving toward Vermont.

Was that Carrie Coon or her stand in or just an extra in the dusty rose satin? It looked like a Bertha-style dress and the hair did too but that's not necessarily an entirely Bertha-centric look. It didn't look like Coon to me.

That looks like Peggy's world in the link r422 (the amount of black people on the streets) I'm surprised they let this person film everything- every project that I've been on, we've had PAs tell lookyloo people to delete their photos/videos and watch them do it. It's not PR BTS either- they would be in front of that fence..

Like the series or not, it's clearly generating jobs and income for thousands of people and companies who create the Victorian world.

At least it takes place in 1882 so the headcases who do Civil War re-enactments haven’t been put to work on it. But I guess there could be a flashback episode down the pike.

OK maybe I'm dense but why would Mrs. Fane suggest Lawyer Raikes to Bertha as an appropriate luncheon companion for Marian? Is she intentionally trying to aggravate and sabotage her Aunt Agnes?

I mean, I know Agnes was not supposed to turn up at the luncheon, but surely Mrs. Fane knows those footmen have loose tongues (not to mention Mr. Mc Allister).

The best theory I can offer is it's the old "I'm just here to make up the numbers" such as Larry claimed about the invitation down to Mamie Fish's lobster boil or whatever it was.

The truth is Fellowes needs Raikes certain places for his plot and he doesn't think a lot about it and it is probably intended we don't either. This is Julian Fellowes' writing... allowances must be made.

When Marian ran into Mr. Raikes at the symphony he said he had run into the young Mr. Schermerhorn while roller-skating in Cental Park. They had apparently taken a law course together, and it’s on that flimsy premise that he’s been suddenly accepted by high society.

Do we know if the former Mrs. John Mulaney is fabricating period appropriate lamp shades for show?

She throws shade anytime she can.

I could see Raikes doing shady legal work for scuzzy guys, kind of like the Gilded Age Michael Cohen

Casting call for season 2 with a spoiler in it:

OMG! Agnes, you dark horse!

[quote] I'm surprised they let this person film everything- every project that I've been on, we've had PAs tell lookyloo people to delete their photos/videos and watch them do it.

On what possible authority?

If you're filming in public then people can take photos of it: you have ZERO legal authority over what other people can film in public.

[quote] When Marian ran into Mr. Raikes at the symphony he said he had run into the young Mr. Schermerhorn while roller-skating in Cental Park. They had apparently taken a law course together, and it’s on that flimsy premise that he’s been suddenly accepted by high society.

HA! A likely story!

From the ACLU's website:

[quote] Taking photographs and video of things that are plainly visible in public spaces is a constitutional right—and that includes transportation facilities, the outside of federal buildings, and police and other government officials carrying out their duties.

Well, then Bertha should have invited young Mr. Schermerhorn!

Has it been discussed here what the budget is for the show?

[quote]I love that they named the dog "Pumpkin". It's a reference to the social registry, an annual list of the "right" families from "respectable" industries. The book is black with pumpkin lettering. It still exists to this day since the Gilded age.

The Social Register is a semi-annual publication in the United States that indexes the members of American high society. First published in the 1880s by newspaper columnist Louis Keller, it was later acquired by Malcolm Forbes. Since 2014, it has been owned by Christopher Wolf.

It was historically a directory of "old money," well-connected families from the northeastern United States. In recent years, membership has diversified both in the geography and ethnicity of those it lists, however, its importance as an arbiter of a family's social status remains.

Inclusion

Traditionally, wealth or fame have been insufficient for inclusion in the Social Register; Kim Kardashian and Gloria Vanderbilt were never listed and Donald Trump, prior to his election as President of the United States, was also not included. A 1985 article reported that "enrollees need plenty of green (money), blue (blood), and lily white (reputations)".

Listing in the Social Register has typically been through birth: Children born to a person listed in the Social Register are, in turn, added. Persons have also been permitted to apply for inclusion in the Social Register. Such applications require letters of sponsorship from five persons already listed, followed by vetting from the advisory committee. In 1997, a spokesman for the Social Register's then 25-member advisory committee described the criteria by which a person might be added to the directory. The committee, he said, asked themselves "would one want to have dinner with this person on a regular basis"?

The President of the United States and Vice President of the United States are, by custom, always added.

Exclusion

Reasons for removal from the Social Register have traditionally been opaque. In the early 20th century, historian Dixon Wecter observed that those excluded tended to be persons unfavorably reported upon in the press and that, as long as one's private life "keeps out of the [newspaper's] columns" the risk of exclusion was low. The Social Register also tends to exclude people of "illegitimate" industries, such as motion pictures, regardless of wealth or social status.

A Social Register spokesman reported, in 1985, that elderly persons who failed to remit the questionnaire sent to listed persons by the register for eleven consecutive years were removed. In addition, someone who married a person who was not, themselves, listed in the Social Register might have been dropped.

As of 1988, about 35,000 individuals were included in the Social Register.[3] By 2014, this number was reported to be approximately 25,000.

Well... HUN-NEY, CHILE!!!

(From FaceBook comment section that accompanies the ad)

"If Louisa Gummer got cast anyone can get cast. Tired of seeing Streep's mediocre actress daughters getting work that should have gone to other actresses. It would one thing if the camera loved her, but it doesn't. If she had a golden voice, but she doesn't. Plus this show stinks."

"If Louisa Gummer can get a part then anyone can. She is so mediocre."

"I like the story, but feel the the actresses who play Marian and Mrs. Russell are horrible."

"her performance is “flat”. I see no light behind her eyes. It’s passable, but could have been cast better. I would have cast Amybeth McNulty ( from Anne With An E)"

"so flat. Both her and Mrs Russell. There is nothing that makes you want them to succeed or move forward. They are painful to watch. I am in it for the costumes at this point. Peggy and Mr Russell carry the show. They already announced a season 2. I wonder if they will write out Marian’s character"

"I’m trying honestly though I find the acting really forced in it."

"I appreciate them doing the show, but something feels very stiff to me. I don’t know if it’s the acting or the writing, however. Maybe it’s the directing? Something feels very unnatural."

"The lead cast is a joke right? SNL? It’s horrendous Cynthia Nixon is unwatchable!"

"You think I have a chance if my mom isn’t Meryl Streep?"

[quote] I am in it for the costumes at this point.

Maybe she should get Netflix. There's more to life than watching clothes.

The libraries are open again too, aren't they?

[quote]There's more to life than watching clothes.

Excuse me...

Unless someone is just looking for attention I don't understand why any actor would want to post anything negative on an acting job board about an acting job unless the production was treating people badly. There are SO many actors but SO few roles that I would think that a person wouldn't want to do anything to harm an acting job. I understand the Merl Streep's daughter comments. But, I don't understand those comments that criticize the production quality, writing, etc. Don't you just want to get the job??? If you don't want it then simply don't audition for it. Why try and ruin an opportunity for another fellow actor? It comes across to me that some of the comments are out to sabotage the production.

R437, that’s interesting. Years ago, I was trying to take some photos of the outside of the downtown Los Angeles public library. A security guard yelled at me that I couldn’t do it. I sort of laughed and asked if he was kidding. He was not, citing that they had recently had terrorist threats or something. I knew it was ridiculous but I didn’t care enough to get in a fight over it.

I'm just happy ever time they give Ward Horton (Charles Fane) screen time. I can't believe this sexy piece of meat was a stunt double, when he clearly should have always been a known face. He's just delicious to see as well as Aurora Fane (Kelli O'Hara) who appears all to willing to toss the Russell's over board if necessary.

Forgot to add his photo.

"There's more to life than watching clothes."

R442 - Yes there is! Many more things like china, silver services, handbags, pictures and oriental rugs to watch.

R444, it's easy to forget, but most performers are completely nuts.

And, what are you having for luncheon today???

R450 - What is on the menu???

Appetizer: Ortolans en Sarcofage.

Main Course: Haunch of Lamb with Brussels sprouts, mashed parsnips and glazed carrots.

Dessert: Some kind of Bombe glacée.

[quote]Ortolans en Sarcofage.

Peasant.... Rather, "OH, DEAR!!!"

"Ortolans en Sarcophage"

I bow.

.

r452

In Edith Wharton, the two greatest delicacies always seem to be canvasback duck and turtle soup.

Ugh, how tasty. . .

Turtle Soup was HUGE back then and today...nada.

Thank god.

It sounds ghastly.

Right?

So - Mr Raikes is a snake in the grass!

He’s no turtle soup

[quote]Turtle Soup was HUGE back then and today...nada.

I have a friend who is a chef that claimed that he prepared it about a month or two ago. He told me that the smell of it cooking was indescribable. However, I thought it now illegal (and for some time) to harvest and eat turtles. Maybe he was cooking alligator.

This series seems to have been a boon for a number of YouTubers. While I don't believe in conspiracies, per se... it seems as if the production company might have reached out to various tour guide facilities and YouTube influencers asking them to follow the series and discuss it. A little stipend couldn't hurt either. There just seems to be A LOT of YouTube activity about this series. This is a good thing for everyone involved, I suppose.

Were there Chinese restaurants in NYC in them days? I’d like to see Agnes tuck into some Chop Suey.

[quote]During the Gilded Age, dropping by a friend’s house was acceptable and encouraged, as long as it conformed to an extensive menu of rules and regulations. Calling cards were an essential element in this exercise with an additional set of requirements outlined in over twenty pages by Ward McAllister in his book Society As I Have Found It (1890). In short, upon arrival at the house, the card was presented to the head butler at the front door, forwarded to the lady of the house who would decide whether or not to receive you. Specific corners of the card would be folded down to indicate the lady’s wishes or her absence.

What times does HBO release the new episode?

Same time it starts airing on the East Coast, I should think. 9 pm.

Shhh.... (for those on a fixed income or having cash flow issues)

It's free. Although you'll have to get through 20 pop-ups before you see the show and it's uploaded 1-2 days after it airs on HBOMax

R459 I'd like to have Mr. Raikes' snake in my grass.

R463, by the 1890s, yes.

I don't know if that's correct, R469. Maybe for San Francisco but not necessarily for New York. The first known Chinese restaurant in America, Canton Restaurant, opened in San Francisco in 1849. Also, Nom Wah Tea Parlor, opened in 1920, is the oldest continuously running restaurant in the Chinatown of Manhattan in New York City.

R387 - here's hoping for the homosex!

I think I'll pay Cousin Oscar a surprise visit, just like I did with Peggy! He'll love it!

R461, indescribably good or bad?

I have to say I really like watching Coon. She was great in Fargo, I just like her voice and demeanor.

Agnes, your anger is making you indelicate must become DL speak.

Mr raikes is looking like a tasty snack

Oh, BELVEDERE!

Come HYEE-ah, Boy!

Boooooooooooooooooooooooring.

I don't believe I've voiced any negative opinion of Baby Gummer so far, but she is really wearing on me now. Her face is unattractive and her acting is completely flat and stiff. Every line reading is the same. She has no spark or emotional range, and she speaks every line so carefully. She's very annoying. I'm over the van Rhijns overall (except for Pumpkin and Bannister). I'd like to see more emphasis on the Russells from now on. The story is with them, and the old-money side of the struggle is boring.

In general, I find the acting and writing awful. I keep watching it as a kind of escape, but it's not really working for me.

However they did the final sequence at the NYTimes Building was fantastic. It really looked to me like a real event.

It looked especially CGI to me.

Nothing happened much in this episode. I was surprised when it was over and expected more.

Here's the trailer for the next episode, and the "Inside the Episode" feature for tonight's episode.

It was a very short episode--less than 45 minutes.

Just finished watching episode 7. It was okay, not as great as episode 6. And kind of disappointing in that it is only about 45 minutes long and it seems like not much happens. My favorite part was seeing the carriage picnic that was staged to watch Mr. Edison's light show. I wish I could have been there ... either in 1882 or even just to watch them film it in 2021.

I'm glad this show has been picked up for a second season, but I am hoping that either the actors will get more comfortable delivering their lines, or that Lord Fellowes will let some American writers loosen up the language a bit. They all seem so stiff in their delivery -- it is clear that they are speaking someone else's words dug up from the 19th century. Yes, we know that this is how dialogue was written then, but you can't convince me that regular people spoke this way in their everyday lives.

“Someone else’s words”. Fuck! Actors study Shakespeare. It is their JOB to recite someone else’s words, you cretin!

Cretin yourself, asshole! There is a difference between reciting and acting. Not that you could tell the difference.

Girls, girls, [italic]girls![/italic]

You're letting your cuntiness over the stiff acting tear you apart!

You wouldn’t know. What fucking 1880’s prosody have you been studying lately?

Every time they do that shot looking over to the Russell’s house showing off that side garden is infuriating. It is very obviously based on the pocket garden on 70th street beside the Frick Museum. And that garden dates back to ripe old Gilded Age of….1977. There is no historic precedence for that garden design and its architectural elements in the 19th Century in New York City.

This was the best image I could find to give you somewhat a sense of what the garden looks like. This article is old, and despite being saved in the past the new expansion that is being carried out current at the Frick will obliterate the garden and replace it with a building. Not to say it wasn’t a surprisingly sensitive garden design for the times, but it was never meant to be permanent and it’s best to leave it in the past. Unfortunately, we aren’t so lucky with the Russell’s side garden.

Coon is much better in this one, but it probably has to do with her being angry or haughty in a few scenes. The subplot with Oscar is kindof stupid, but you could say that about a lot of what goes on here.

Agnes, your anger is making you indelicate.

Increasingly the who first season feels like one long pilot.

When is it going to come out that Ada and Agnes aren’t actually sisters, but are really in a Boston Marriage?

Anachronisms concerning [italic]gardens?! SHOCKING,[/italic] I say!

Fetch me my vinaigrette post-haste, lest I should collapse utterly!

The ladies maid's re-appearance was ridiculous but entertaining.

Mr. Raikes visiting that whore, Mrs. Chamberlain, my word, what way for Marian to camouflage her whorish behavior the oily Mr. Raikes.

I thought Mr. Russell was going to fuck his son when he put his hand on his shoulder in the dimly lit office. Now that would be a plot line.

Raikes and Marian seem destined to be the Anna-Bates of this show.

Raikes is a rake!

What a boring episode.

And I agree about Streep, Jr.: every line reading is the same and her too-sweet-to-be-true-but-true persona is boring.

Is Oscar wearing a wig?

At least we got to see Adams, too muscular for his shirt. Oscar looks a little like "Faye Dunaway as Joan Crawford" in this episode.

Oscar looks very unattractive. And his face/hair looks from a different era.

I keep expecting him to show up in a beret, snapping his fingers, and saying, "Cool daddy-o."

John Adams is indeed quite muscular, but every time he opens his mouth an embroidered plush reticule drops from it.

No thanks. I had sufficient of rich people.

Disagree, I think Oscar's mustache makes him look more "period" than the other men, it's the clean-shaven ones who look out of place to me

[quote] Raikes and Marian seem destined to be the Anna-Bates of this show.

Everyone is predicting he will be found out as indeed a fortune hunter before the end of the season.

Agnes can't be wrong about everything.

Baranski mush-muttered a very funny line in the episode, something like: "Does every one of those family names begin with an R?" that Dame Maggie Smith would have killed.

They really need to get Claybourne Elder out of his clothes in every episode. Watching him smoke a ciggie in a Victorian gay bar is killing my boner.

Oscar really reminds me of someone, but for the life of me, I can't think who. I feel almost sure it's another character in an older show.

R507: Of course, he's a sleazy fortune hunter, but because it's Marian, it will dragged out and she will give him second chances. It will be annoying.

Bates & Anna = Raikes & Marian

The boring and never-ending plotline the audiences hate.

When they were in that bar, I was waiting for John Adams to do a neck roll, snap his fingers, and say, "Ooooooh, Miss Thing! Let me tell you something, Miss Gurleena!"

Now that she got Mrs Russell’s maid fired will Agnes’s bitter old cunt of a maid cross the street and replace her?

Help me out!

Were we to assume that Mrs. Fane invited the young lady in pink to the evening picnic to distract Mr. Raikes from Marian (or maybe to test him? ) because she felt guilty for bringing then together in the first place? I'm not sure I got the lady in pink's presence in the scene.

I’m glad to see the back of Russell, or O’Brien, or Mrs. Danvers, or whatever her name is.

Marian needs to be caught sucking Raikes cock by Agnes in a parlor late at night. And when Anges demands she explain herself, cum needs to be leaking out of one side of Marian's mouth as she talks.

Sorry to say, but if that's the last of Hussy Turner, I won't miss her. All of the sexy and talented young actresses in NY and that's the best casting they could come up with?

Mrs. Fane seemed to be troubled by Raikes leaping at the invitation from the young girl.

Is she on to him?

Gee, maybe we'll find out by the season finale who wrote the note exposing poor benighted Bannister?

(yawn)

R509 I’m not sure that’s supposed to be a gay bar, I think it’s just a bar bar. I don’t think ladies in 1880 would hang out in bars, excluding Ms. Adams.

But why wasn't Marian included in the evening picnic? The writing is just so sloppy.

In those post-show features I find listening to the producers yammer on about how brilliant the series is hilarious.

With Agnes asleep, Marian should have snuck out to the NYT lighting, only to witness Raikes flirting with that young girl and dragged her out of the carriage by her hair, leaving her to be raped by the crowd of men when all the street lights were extinguished and a feeling of unsafety lingered over the square. No one would have heard her screams over the cheering.

Every time Nathan Lane opens his mouth I start craving fried chicken.......and ham

Raikes sucking up by asking about Mrs. McAllister was one of the more unintentionally funny parts of the show. We, of course, know that even if there was a Mrs. McAllister, the Mister was hiring male prostitute whores.

You don't like a good ferret face R518?

Better than the anteater face on that Russell daughter.

[quote] We, of course, know that even if there was a Mrs. McAllister, the Mister was hiring male prostitute whores.

I'm not sure we really do know that, since Ward McAllister was an actual historical personage. He and his wife had three children.

I don't think Nathan Lane can play any part straight.

It’s Lehr who tries to follow in MacAllister’s shoes who is the known homosexual, outted by his wife in her memoirs.

It looks like next week we'll be seeing some uglier people among those gathered at the Newport dinners, which is actually what this show needs. Not everyone in high society looked like Morgan Spector or Carrie Coon or Kelli O'Hara or Jeanne Tripplehorn--many of them were quite homely, despite their finery.

A question: whenever they show Bertha she's wearing jewelry during the day (she was even wearing diamonds when quarreling with George over the date of Gladys's ball). DID society women back then really wear diamonds during the day?

They had turkey basters back then, I'm sure. His wife's memoirs more or less said he was homo. She had been a "recluse" when he married her---which meant he could dilly-dally with whom ever he wanted.

r530, they take great liberties with Bertha's clothes in regard to the period (as was discussed ad infinitum in earlier threads). Julian Fellowes apparently isn't as much of a stickler about period dress codes as he is about the authentic placement of fish forks. Married women didn't show much decolletage (or bare arms) until dinner and she's always showing off her cleavage in the afternoon.

What a nothing episode.

Why didn't we get to see an actual confrontation between Agnes and Oscar? Weirdly all done off camera.

And, obviously Turner the ladies maid must have more to do...the way they've handled her character is so dumb.

The train wreck trial is also a big "ho hum, who gives a fuck?" Again, robber barons didn't have to worry much about public opinion or responsiblity for negilence. In fact, robber barons of 2022 seldom have to worry about them either.

Oh! Okay... Episode 7 is already uploaded.

[quote][R461], indescribably good or bad?

The smell of the cooking "turtle" was so indescribably bad

I wonder if their shooting schedules made it so Oscar and Agnes couldn't do their big scene (which we didn't get to see) together.

There is absolutely something going on this season with Christine Baranski's lack of availability, which is why we so rarely see her in a group scene beyond just with Ada, Marian, Peggy, and/or Bannister.

[quote]Not everyone in high society looked like Morgan Spector

OMG! To have been his tailor! How hot did he look when he was in his office with his son! One could even see the outline of his... unmentionable.

Timothy Thomas Fortune (October 3, 1856 – June 2, 1928) was an African American orator, civil rights leader, journalist, writer, editor and publisher. He was the highly influential editor of the nation's leading black newspaper The New York Age and was the leading economist in the black community. He was a long-time adviser to Booker T. Washington and was the editor of Washington's first autobiography, The Story of My Life and Work. Fortune's philosophy of militant agitation on behalf of the rights of black people laid one of the foundations of the Civil Rights Movement.

Timothy Thomas Fortune was born into slavery in Marianna, Jackson County, Florida, to Emanuel and Sarah Jane Fortune, and started his education at Marianna's first school for African Americans after the Civil War. His family moved to Jacksonville, where he attended M. Stanton School (predecessor of Stanton College Preparatory School) He worked both as a page in the state senate and as apprentice printer at a Jacksonville newspaper during the time that his father, Emanuel, was a Reconstruction politician in Florida. At one time Fortune also worked at the Marianna Courier and later the Jacksonville Daily-Times Union. These experiences would be the start of a career in which his work was published in more than twenty books and articles and in more than three hundred editorials. In 1874 he was mail route agent and then he was promoted to customs inspector for the eastern district of Delaware but only held this position for a few months before resigning in order to attend Howard University. Although he was mostly self-taught prior to his college enrollment in 1875, Fortune was admitted to study law. He changed his major to journalism after two semesters before leaving school altogether to begin work, in 1876, at the People's Advocate, a newspaper in Washington, D.C. On February 21, 1878, Fortune married Carrie C. Smiley (née Caroline Charlotte Smiley; 1860–1940) in Washington, D.C.

With Fortune at the helm as co-owner with Emanuel Fortune, Jr., and Jerome B. Peterson, the New York Age became the most widely read of all Black newspapers. It stood at the forefront as a voice agitating against the evils of discrimination, lynching, mob violence, and disenfranchisement. Its popularity was due in part to Fortune's editorials, which condemned all forms of discrimination and demanded full justice for all African Americans. Ida B. Wells's newspaper Memphis Free Speech and Headlight had its printing press destroyed and building burned as the result of an article published in it on May 25, 1892. Fortune then gave her a job and a new platform from which to detail and condemn lynching.

Isn't Mrs. Bruce related to Agnes? She calls her aunt all the time. I could see Bruce and Agnes conspiring to show Marian that Raikes is indeed an adventurer who is only using her.

I love Turner and the actress who plays her, she reminds me of DA's O'Brien. A naughty hussy version. She fully embraces the scene chewing scheming.

I very much enjoyed the scene with the carriages watching the lights light up in Park Road.

Oh dear. I mixed up Aurora Fane (Kelli O'Harawith) with Mrs. Bruce (Celia Keenan-Bolger). My apologies.

[quote]There is absolutely something going on this season with Christine Baranski's lack of availability, which is why we so rarely see her in a group scene beyond just with Ada, Marian, Peggy, and/or Bannister.

So don't cast her, right? I like Christine Baranski as an actress and perhaps it was a combination of productions resumed colliding with post-COVID, but you don't limit your character or scripts because of scheduling. But for Amanda Peet's schedule it wouldn't be Carrie Coon's part. I can think of plenty of actresses who could have played Baranski's part as well or even better.

[quote]robber barons didn't have to worry much about public opinion or responsiblity for negilence

Right. A real robber baron would have bought the judge and jury by now and been on time for dinner.

[quote]Oscar looks very unattractive. And his face/hair looks from a different era. I keep expecting him to show up in a beret, snapping his fingers, and saying, "Cool daddy-o.”

He looks his real life age, which is 44. Is he supposed to be [italic]that[/italic] old in GA?

And those sun glasses are so ugly I'm amazed sun glasses survived their introduction. He looks like something from Willy Wonka.

Minor point but George and Bertha's bedrooms would connect wouldn't they? Unless Bertha's the soundest sleeper in the world you'd think she'd hear Turner's bumps in the night. And it seems to me Bertha's radar never sleeps.

The George and Bertha relationship is interesting, although I don't think it's meant to be, I think it's bad writing. I get the sense she loves him but she sure doesn't seem to offer him much in the relationship. He's much more kindly to her and much more frequently disappointed by her to. She seems loyal and committed but completely lost in her ambition. It's just the writing, I guess.

[quote]I love Turner and the actress who plays her, she reminds me of DA's O'Brien. A naughty hussy version. She fully embraces the scene chewing scheming.

I like her too! She definitely can make her dresses sway side-to-side and emit an air of seduction!

She was sure embracing her inner cat last night. The difference between her and O'Brien was that O'Brien had an air of genuine menace about her. Turner's just a beeotch. And that little sashay in her walk was always comical. I can't tell if she's actually gone or not. I don't know where they find a place for her if she's staying.

[quote] t Mr. Russell was going to fuck his son when he put his hand on his shoulder in the dimly lit

Season two, I hope!

O'Brien was a pretty sexless character. Only Anna had a life and it was with that reprobate, Bates.

[quote] Watching him smoke a ciggie in a Victorian gay bar is killing my boner.

Poor, kid, it’s clear he doesn’t smoke, he is Mormon after all

Nathan Lane is so camp. They should introduce Mrs. MacAllister and have her and Ward absolutely despise each other and constantly at each other's throats. Meantime enjoy these leaked scenes of Lane from the Tucked Up in Newport episode.

Kelli O'Hara's character seems kind of like the show's Oracle, only with a huge case of the whatevs... she knows all, sees all, gets all, but sorta throws up her hands because you can't fight the system. Her downcast look at Raikes and the new girl was a dropping anvil.

Yeah, and her dork husband always has that plastered on dumb look on his handsome face. I wonder if society matrons had dumb but handsome husband they grew bored of. “Yes, mrs Morris, Edward is right as rain, no, he really didn’t have a single thing to say at dinner last night. . . “

"I don't believe I've voiced any negative opinion of Baby Gummer so far, but she is really wearing on me now. "

R479 - There is nothing wrong with Baby Gummer except that she was totally miscast. The role needed someone with the sparkle & sex appeal of Lily James IMAO.

Okay, I watched all 7 episodes but I suppose the most bothersome things to me is the writing for the George Russell character. To me, he was emotionless for the first 3 or 4 episodes and now POW! Where did this all come from that was never even hinted at before? The Russell's son comes across to me as being miscast. Actually, he's probably one of the few casted properly and it is many of the others who are too old to be playing the part that they are casted in. Nathan Lane gets on my nerves. IMHO, he's overacting the part.

R520, I'm certain it was Mr. Church that wrote the note to Aunt Agnes. In episode 6 right before the big luncheon scene, Church excuses himself to "take care of something" and ran out the servant's entrance.

[quote]Where did this all come from that was never even hinted at before?

I think the actor is going for a the fist in a velvet glove. plus, he did make that Mister Morris grovel at his feet for mercer. he's always shown a bit of a malevolent side

Only two more episodes and not one bare butt so far! Come on, folks, this is HBO!

I think Oscar looks a bit like Jonathan Frid as Barnabas Collins......

R654. People who write “casted” get on MY nerves.

r654? that bothers me

^Deal with it, R558. It's early in the morning and I'm doing 4 different things all in one sitting. Unlike some of you fucking queens, who devote your lives to DL and just being sheer bitches, more and more of us are running away from this tired and old site. SO! Just let me (and many of us) know... Do you want us here or not? Because honey, either way does not matter to me. Just speak up. There are no wrong answers.

r654 is the real problem with the DL

Lewis Latimer, the African America inventor mentioned in relation to Edison, has a house museum in Queens you can visit.

R560 - Of course we want you here or at least I do as I enjoy your post.

I think you could say that Episode 7 is where you really notice that the production could not live up to its ambitious expectations. Only 45 minutes long, and we are deprived of the confrontation between Agnes and her son Oscar? It looks to me like the scene was probably written but not shot -- we do briefly see Oscar leaving the house afterwards.

I have noticed a number of times that characters refer to things happening off screen in a way that makes it look like they had to make do with what they had and film some shortcuts. Probably because of scheduling availability and COVID restrictions. Maybe Season Two will be better about this. It wouldn't hurt if they cut down on the number of characters they are trying to juggle.

Oscar reminds me of images I’ve seen of both Edgar Allan Poe and Edvard Munch, he looks to have a touch of consumption, which is right up their alleys.

and right up MY alley

I would refer to the deleted (or unfilmed or unaired or whatever happened) Oscar/Agnes confrontation as an “obligatory scene.” Lots of things could have been accomplished in that one scene - establish more of a connection between characters who are mother and son (and have not shared but a small handful of scenes thus far); show the audience Oscar’s surprise, and perhaps amusement, at his mother completely misreading the situation and giving him a false way of dealing with his real closeted-ness; and maybe even drop a few hints about what exactly was so awful about Mr. van Rjin, something we still don’t know much about.

Someone made a huge mistake in deleting that scene.

[quote]Only two more episodes and not one bare butt so far! Come on, folks, this is HBO!

All we've got so far is Turner's tits and she got fired.

[quote]I have noticed a number of times that characters refer to things happening off screen in a way that makes it look like they had to make do with what they had and film some shortcuts.

Always think of the Violet line: I hate Greek drama... where everything happens off stage.

For me Blake Ritson, who plays Oscar, is one of the few actors in the show who brings a genuine Victorian melodramatic presence that's sorely absent from so much of the series.

I think Baranski is a disaster, especially when compared to what Maggie Smith brought to DA, big shoes to fill though, I know. The role really did need someone of Glenn Close or Gillian Anderson's stature.

I can't imagine what the producers are thinking by making George Russell so chaste in the bedroom. This is 1882, ferchrissakes, and robber barons all had mistresses, even the happily married ones.

I give Baranski credit for bringing nuance to Agnes who is a stickler more than stuck in the past and has an notable sense of fairness. But her scenes are starting to feel claustrophobic to me.

R571 - Agree with you 100%. All the rich dudes had mistresses.

Who is the hairstylist who hates Jeanne Tripplehorn? Her wigs make it look as if she cuts her own bangs. And they are too dark for her complexion.

The Russell son looks like he is 12. Very wrong for the role.

And I agree that Christine Baranski is underwhelming. Gillian Anderson would have had more fun with the role.

^ Thank you. I'm like why does everyone else look like their wigs are made of knitting but Tripplehorn looks like she got something Carol Brady didn't want.

She's get so little to do but I find Mrs. Chamberlain one of the sympathetic characters and I wish she'd get a bit of story of her own.

It’s a shame we’ve seen so little of Donna Murphy.

The inspiration for Sylvia Chamberlain

Arabella Duval Huntington (née Yarrington; c. 1850/1851 – September 16, 1924) was an American philanthropist and once known as the richest woman in the country. She was the force behind the art collection that is housed at the Huntington Library in California. She was the second wife of Collis P. Huntington, an American railway tycoon and industrialist. After his death, she married his nephew, Henry E. Huntington, also a railway magnate, and founder of the Huntington Library, Art Museum and Botanical Gardens, in San Marino, California.

In 1884, the widowed Arabella Yarrington married Collis P. Huntington, a wealthy industrialist, in San Francisco. She brought her son Archer to the marriage, and he was adopted by Collis Huntington. Collis died in 1900. Later, she married his widowed nephew Henry E. Huntington (1850–1927), who was also a railway magnate and influential in the Los Angeles area. He founded the Huntington Library, Art Museum and Botanical Gardens, in San Marino, California.

Information about her early life was scarce. She was born Arabella Duval Yarrington in 1850 or 1851, probably in Richmond, Virginia (see Wark, p. 312). For the 1921 passenger list for the ship Aquitania, sailing from Cherbourg to New York, Arabella Huntington said she was born in Mobile, Alabama on February 9, 1851.

She moved North with a Mr. Worsham, also of Virginia, said to be married with children. He died shortly after they were married, leaving her with their young son Archer, who was born about 1870. (Some sources have suggested that the pair were never married and that she was Worsham's mistress). In 1877, she purchased some property in New York, which was later sold to John D. Rockefeller. In New York, she worked to care for the ailing wife of Collis P. Huntington, a wealthy industrialist and railway magnate whom she may have met in Richmond. (It has been suggested that her son Archer's biological father was Collis Huntington.

Collis Huntington's wife died in 1884 in New York. He married Arabella that year, in San Francisco, California. She was his second wife. After they married, he legally adopted Archer, who by then was 14 years old. When Collis Huntington died in 1900, both Arabella and Archer inherited money from him. She is said to have inherited more than $50 million.

Especially since there's so MUCH of her to see.

R565 you are right....I was thinking it was Barnabas Collins - but Oscar does look like Edgar Allan Poe!!!!

And was it the footman with the blond pompadour who claimed to be afraid of horses?

Carrie Coons comes off as a real shoot from the hip no-nonsense actress in the latest official podcast. I’m assuming it’s real and not just bravado.

Don't tell me there are TWO of them!

Ritson reminds me of Gary Oldman in Bram Stoker's Dracula when he's in London. Pale and wearing those darn sunglasses.

Blake Ritson also was in a British-PBS series called "Indian Summers". He played a very evil dude and played the evil dude quite well.

Indian Summers was pretty good. Indian Summers is streaming on PBS via Amazon Prime and PBS Passport.

Does Agnes really not get any gay inkling about her own son? I guess “gay” just read as eccentric and sardonic to the uninitiated back then. I enjoy his character and think he’s one of the only actors bringing something beyond what’s written on the page.

And that bar in which Oscar and John “Pecs” Adams meet up is not supposed to be some kind of underground gay haunt of the 1880s. I think it’s just a regular pub/tavern.

What is the story with Ada? Agnes was all but saying she was a complete retard in the last episode. I’d like to know some backstory there. Agnes is so bullying towards her (for someone who’s obviously less attractive and looks like a “Who” from the Grinch).

[quote]Agnes is so bullying towards her (for someone who’s obviously less attractive and looks like a “Who” from the Grinch).

Agnes is the one with the money. She can be and act like whatever she chooses to. However, (IMHO) she's not too bad at all towards Ada or Marian. It could be A LOT worse!

Is Ada allowed to leave the house?

Here's a new thread to continue the discussion since this one will run out soon.

God, this show. I want it to be so much better than it is.

The cast is MUCH too large, meaning stories are aborted with no explanation (the male servant following someone - whatever happened there? And the bigoted maid with the Livia Soprano mother - totally dropped. The list goes on.)

7 episodes in and we know next to nothing about Agnes and Ada and their backstories; they simply exist to gossip about others. The show seems to set up a confrontation between the Russells and the Van Rijnes that never comes to pass.

And the dialogue is an atrocity. Every character has the same stilted voice. Worse still, the actors all seem uncomfortable with the dialogue. With DOWNTON ABBEY, the actors *understood* their words and here they're just reciting them.

The writing and pacing is just a mess. The most interesting scene last night was the one we didn't see - what would have been a juicy showdown between the closeted son and Agnes. It's really inexcusable.

And let's talk performances. Streep, Jr. is such a wooden performer, yet seems to to be the central character. And though I like Baranaski, she mainly excels at playing different shades of arch. I'm in agreement with other posters here that the role was miscast, and it's a damn shame.

I saw Fellowes speak at a lecture several years ago and - shocker - he's quite full of himself. I hope HBO takes note of the viewers' criticisms and forces him to make some necessary changes next season.

R589 - Fellowes seems not to completely grasp the USA. The Gilded Age characters seem to water-downed versions of British aristocrats which they never were; all the gilded age people are self-made money whether that is old self-made money or new self-made money.

I say this because Fellowes miniseries "Belgravia" about so called "new British money" made during the Napoleonic War was very much above average.

[quote]What is the story with Ada? Agnes was all but saying she was a complete retard in the last episode.

well...

Many of your complaints I agree with, r589, but not all of them. For example:

[quote]And the bigoted maid with the Livia Soprano mother - totally dropped.

That was mostly a one-off so we could see why she's so incredibly bitchy to everyone (especially Peggy) all the time. The mother may come back again, but there's not much need.

[quote] 7 episodes in and we know next to nothing about Agnes and Ada and their backstories; they simply exist to gossip about others.

We know they were the Brook sisters from Pennsylvania, that their father was a Union general in the Civil War, that they are related to the highest echelons of Knickerbocker society because their mother was a Livingston, that they had a brother Henry (Marian's father) who squandered their fortune after their father died soon after the war, that Ada was courted as a younger woman not seriously by the fortune hunter Cornelius Eckhard and then more seriously by someone else whom her father would not let her marry. We also know that Agnes staved off ruin for the two of them by marring a wealthy Van Rhijn, but that he was somehow abusive or unkind to her.

So we know a fair amount about them.

I think that we may find out that the wealthy Van Rhijn was much-much older than Agnes.

One thing that has surprised me so far is that there seem to be no other Van Rhijns in NY except Mrs. Fane (who refers to Agnes as "Aunt Agnes" like Marian does). Are they a tiny highly respected clan dying off like the Van der Luydens in The Age of Innocence?

I feel like Mr. van Rhijn may have raped Ada at some point. It’s just a gut feeling.

Bajour, bajour, toujours Bajour!

R595 - You may be right but I do not see Fellowes having an aristocrat reaped or an aristocrat being a rapist as that is not in his bag of tricks. I think Agnes' husband was a friend (via the Union Army) of her father's who she was coerced (forced) into marrying due to "brilliance" of the match. I think Agnes' husband was very controlling and had many a mistress.

^^^^ "raped" not "reaped". Sorry for the typo.

Can't believe none of the authenticity queens didn't comment on the Degas bronze of the ballerina at Jeanne's house. Those weren't made until the 20s!

LOL at Gillian Anderson having more "stature" than Christine Baranski

[quote]Can't believe none of the authenticity queens didn't comment on the Degas bronze of the ballerina at Jeanne's house. Those weren't made until the 20s!

And, THIS is why I come to DL!!!

R599 It’s meant to be the original one, as if she bought it in 1881 instead of Degas keeping it. It ended up in the US anyways.