HBO's The Gilded Age: Thread Four

I hope the unstoppable rise of the Russells is checked soon. The show has no drama if they don't have more serious obstacles to face than just getting Ward McAllister to visit.

Where was the homosexuality this episode?

There wasn't any, r2.

Nope.

So many nice clips

Someone on a duplicate thread 4 posted this, it’s sublime nude Morgan Spector .

I think he's less ripped now as George Russell because it would be period inaccurate. But, he still has an amazing body.

DL has such "expertise" in so many areas (self-declared, or even authentic)... as in "that dress would not have that many pleats!!".... or, "on that side of the international date line the salad fork would be closer!!"

So, experts, what was the Black upper-middle class like in 1880? "Her son just graduated from Howard and is ready to wed!!" etc. There was a Howard then, for sure. How many Black families lived in a grand brownstone with maids? Is it accurate?

That sounds like a bullying and insincerely posed question, r8.

I was thinking the same thing, R9. It’s trolling.

Maybe it's just a reaction to the heavy handed tone of some of the expertise? Knowledge around here often pairs regularly, if poorly, with some variant of arrogance. It's nice to know things. It's nice to share. Less nice to be so painfully grand about it when it's about, per R8, pleats and such. Just an observation.

An insincerely posed question, here on The Datalounge?! Heavens forfend!

If you want to answer it then, r11, be my guest.

Jesu cristo, I was just trying to be amusing. I was seriously curious about what we know about the Black upper-middle class in the 1880s in NYC? So much isn't discussed about Black history (it's fucking February, after all) - just in recent years we've heard about the Tulsa 1921 riots... and that there actually was a Black Wall Street, etc.

I have no knowledge with which to answer the question, but I can promise if I did I'd provide the facts without the theatrics.

R15 for R13. Who types touchy.

[quote] Who types touchy.

Pot, thy name is kettle.

Oh, you again. ^ Go sort your ribbon box, granny.

R8 merely seeks facts.

I realise we're now living in the 21st Century Dark Ages where facts are suppressed by the puritanical Bowdlerists.

Ladies, ladies, please! Some decorum. Mr. McAllister may be watching, and taking note!

I am sorry but I am not looking forward to Nathan Lane's antics next week. He's always the SAME character no matter who is supposed to be.

I want a scene where Mr. Fane is caught going down on George.

I'd rather George taught Oscar a lesson for his impertinenc e in seeking his daughter's hand--by offering him a part of his own anatomy.

R21, true, even when he was supposed to play a somewhat sinister, threatening father of a deaf man in Only Murders in the Building he was still Nathan frigging Lane.

I was astonished to find out that Nathan Lane has been married for many years because 1) who could put up with him 24/7?, and 2) almost every single gay man I know in NYC has a story of Nathan coming on to him.

Paging Beverly Leslie!

My favorite thing about Nathan Lane is he talks frequently that he knows many people find him (and have always found him) superannoying, and that he just has learned to live with it.

[quote]Agree with above that one of the best scenes was the cunting of the butlers.

I would watch the HELL out of a period drama titled "The Cunting of the Butlers."

Particularly if it was written by E.F. Benson.

Nathan Lane is in this fucking thing now?

And here I thought it was impossible for it to be more of a piece of shit.

Hey, it's Ward McAllister!

I like Nathan.

R29 You talk like a blacksmith.

Disappointed that we haven’t seen Larry Russell’s hairy twink hole yet. What the hell are they waiting for!?

Larry Russell actually seems to be disappearing from the show in general. Julius hasn't really given him a story line. I think there's also the problem that the adorable actor looks nothing like his parents or sister so it's easy to forget who he is..

Can I just say I really couldn't enjoy this series without the hilarious venom of the DL commentary? There are so many posts in these threads that are far cleverer and more astute about the plotting than the actual plotting.

Thanks, boys!

My, that Morgan Spector sex scene was HOT even with the vagine present in it....

#Vapors

The old doll who created the thread appears to have sniffed at it given the absence but that video is Bearking News... part of the furniture.

The Cunting of the Butlers scene was entertaining but didn't really make any sense.

Bannister was really funny but it was pretty stupid that he was making a snark about doing things the proper way when his presence in the Russell house made zero sense. Butlers don't walk dogs or fetch dogs from the neighbors...the Van Rijn house has a footman. That's what footmen DO.

And, Jack Gilpin who plays the Russell butler is another lousy actor with wooden line readings.

Why do I recognize Jack Gilpin?

He’s been in a million things since the 1980s, mostly playing the crabby neighbor.

The opportunity for cunting was just too good to pass up, r38!

And of course, it was that or listen to more of Ada's caterwauling about that mutt.

The lascivious lady’s maid should play Jizz Lane.

The Bitchy Butler was the best part of the episode!

I also loved Bannister's bitchiness. I loved how he worded everything so passive-aggressively, so you could never accuse him directly of being mean to the Russell butler or chef.

Mrs. Brown, You've Got a Cunting Butler

One thing I'm getting more used to as time goes on is Carrie Coon's performance. It seemed very one-note to me in the first two episodes (which surprised me because she's such a revered actress), but I'm understanding now she's playing Bertha basically as a sociopath who takes absolutely no joy out of life unless she is dominating someone or is being admired by others.

George is as ruthless as she is, but he has a much bigger and more human emotional range--you feel he can relax with his wife and children. Bertha cannot relax with her family nor with anyone--she is always "on," trying to dominate her servants and children, and be admired by her husband.

I hope we get more backstory about the two of them soon. I would be curious to see where they came from, and how they got this way.

[quote] Larry Russell actually seems to be disappearing from the show in general.

I'm certain he'll eventually be a rival to Raikes for Marian's hand.

Carrie Coon's performance in The Leftovers is one for the ages; she should have won an Emmy for the third season. But period roles are kind of a stretch for her. That said, I’m either warming up to the character or she’s relaxing into it. Hopefully, once she starts having a little social success, she’ll start to smile a little.

A neurotic, conniving, immature, cowardly, villainous gay man whose entire character revolves around dropping quips and devising schemes to further his economic standing.

Very original, Julian!

I watched it again. The actress playing Mrs. Fane is engaging. I liked her. Bertharaptor is so hard and joyless and a bit whiny - she cannot help dropping references to how hard done by she is where society is concerned. I don't think the Streeplet is historically bad. I don't particularly care about her story but when she's on I find the actress perfectly fine. Sure there's better but she's not awful.

Found this... tells you more about everybody than the scripts have so far. (though the writing is pretty terrible... "backed her instincts"?

Bertharaptor: Bertha comes from the ordinary middle-class. She backed her instincts when she set out to catch her husband George, the son of a merchant family who has proved to be a financial genius. She is determined to use her money and position to break into a society that resists change at every turn.

No mention of John "Studmuffin" Adams

If there was it would semi-literate at best. Read that thing... typos, grammar, run on sentences, comparisons with the other half missing... it's a DL grammar queen's wet dream.

Trying to understand why any of you would think these society people would have any kind of animated or delightful quality to how they present themselves . These are humorless American elites in 1882, you really expect any of them would risk being seen as anything but controlled and dignified? This isn't England, there is no clever humor or British eccentricity. These are constipated American white people who take themselves too seriously.

Just like they do today.

r54, you clearly must never have read any Edith Wharton, who was from this class and often wrote about it.

Try her funny short story "Xingu."

It's a narrative television series and basically a soap opera. We expect big emotions and dramatic acting.

I really don't get Carrie Coon's performance or the voice she's using. It's just dull, flat and one note. Spector isnt much better but at least he presents more warmth and color with his performance...though, not much.

Baranski and Nixon are the most theatrical and fun...they get fun lines and have interesting relationships to play.

I like Denée Benton a lot...she's grounded but brings warmth and intelligence to Peggy. And, I'm also liking Audra as her mom. The actor playing the dad is....meh.

The servants are all either under written (most of them) or just silly caricatures. The bit with them all apparentlly having "secrets" is just silly writing. Kelley Curran as the devious lady's maid trying to bed her master is fun but the role is really ludicrous.

The two Russell kids are both underwritten and lost in a sea of too many characters. Oscar is sort of "fun" but he's another character that's being very broadly drawn. Ultimately, the gay stuff is gonna be as annoying and stupid as the gay plots on Downton.

I"m also really liking Kelli O'Hara as Mrs. Fane...she's also doing a good job making her character seem somewhat real. Ward Horton as her husband is hunky but rather wooden. Like Thomas Cocquerel as Tom the lawyer from Pennsylvania pursing Marian. There's a lot of pretty but dull actors on this show.

The show could actually use some OLDER characters who LOOK old....not botoxed 70 year olds passing for 55.

Okay, just finished the fourth episode and some thoughts:

Why no love for the horny young footman at the van Rijn house? Also, the butlers going on snobby butler on each other was wonderful

The miss Brooks character is harmless. She plays the rôle gormless and harmless, I think when she gets uppity it is also a period trope, “portrait of a lady” is set from about this time, no? She just needs to keep it light.

Peggy Scott meeting the printer guy is fun, and he’s hot to boot. I actually LOVED the scene in Brooklyn where the residents out of some snobbery and protectiveness look upon the outsider, miss brooks, with barely veiled contempt.

Indeed, Miss Scott and Miss Brook likely really Can’t be friends.

The Fains are a good addition to the cast, but he’s played rather dimly, bad casting or is he directed to be rather daft?

In his one scene, what is mister Oscar (who i think is attractive ) drinking from his crystal tumbler? Liquor? Before dinner? I didn't’ know they did that

The black maid at the Scotts’ residence is a fun trope, Mrs Jefferson would have recognized her

Also, big shout out: three colleagues play in the orchestra!!! It’s a real group of professional musicians who were guided to play period-specific instruments (which varied from today’s) for the scene. The music is schumann I believe.

[quote]I really don't get Carrie Coon's performance or the voice she's using. It's just dull, flat and one note. Spector isnt much better but at least he presents more warmth and color with his performance...though, not much.

I agree.... Bertharaptor needs some spark. Not quite sure how, but she's like a wind up toy chewing up New York society, or trying to. She should be far more entertaining than she is. Agree George shows some color and warmth but even that's pretty one note... it never changes: "You can do it, my dear. And now I shall go up to change."

[quote]Baranski and Nixon are the most theatrical and fun...they get fun lines and have interesting relationships to play.

They do... and almost entirely without ever leaving their house set. I'm starting to think Agnes is agoraphobia.

The entire cast is lost in a sea of too many characters. Downton just had one great house and that cast was too big for an hour because Fellowes seems determined to wedge almost everybody in each episode, even if they just get one sentence. Be a good job though in some ways, decent money to learn about six lines of dialogue a week.

I wish we had more Mrs. Astor and less Bertha and Marian.

There doesn't seem to be a central protagonist for Bertha's climb. Is it Agnes? We're four episodes done in a nine episode season and I don't even think they've actually spoken. The Widow Morris seems sidelined. Aurora Fane is now pimping. Mrs. Astor is the logical choice but she's peripheral. It's weird Bertha doesn't have a focus. Maybe the arrival of McAllister will shift and define it. He was Mrs. Astor's creature.

that would be an entirely different story though

Mrs. Fane told Bertharaptor how Beverly Leslie was dying to see the inside of her house and loved money. I wonder if Bertha and McAllister will become a kind of Karen and Jack of the Gilded Age? Bertha as fag hag. Now there's got to be some untapped emotion in that?

I thought Kelli O'Hara was a nothing until Monday. She's really good and making her character pop. She's complex because she's throwing herself into it but masks so well, if not a contempt, a kind of unhappiness with what she has resigned herself to doing.

i agree about O'Haras, but it made her husband's character come across as High School drama stiff

R8, I interpreted your suggestion as sincere and I agree with your sentiments. I know nothing about ice skating, but get a kick out of reading threads that discuss the minutest detail.

I also know very little about history or specifically black history, but I could tell from the first episode that Peggy was obviously going to be from an upper class family (I actually though she was going to be from a richer and more prominent family) and, yes, there have always been successful black families in the US.

There was an author who died fairly recently at a young age who wrote a book about black upper class families, but I don’t think it went back to the gilded age. Not a huge fan of the deceased author, but I think Sag Harbor by the living Colson Whitehead is a really good book about a much more modern period, but it does touch on black society. It’s also just an excellent book.

Again, I don’t know a lot about black history and I’m white, so definitely not claiming to be an expert, but nobody else answered.

Are the Brookses supposed to be Jews?

no, why?

Odd question, they are very clearly WASPs.

likely a troll

R58, Agnes did attend the charity bazaar so she isn’t agoraphobic. She just doesn’t care to mix with the riff raff.

What actors would you like to see on The Gilded Age S2? I think Daniel Radcliffe and Minnie Driver would be fun as a pair of Brit grifters posing as mother and son.

It was a statement in jest, R69.

Mrs Astor needs to be featured more. Hopefully that’s coming. The Russells need to be put in their place, they are rising too quickly for that social set. Marion needs to die. She’s ruining the show for me because she’s far too opinionated for a poor woman squatting with family.

[quote]Marion needs to die.

Actors find that limits their performance.

Marian is a bumpkin. She thinks she can bring change and contribute fresh new ideas and everybody just needs a gentle push and will be forever grateful to her, and then she does shit like arriving at Peggy's house with second hand shoes. She thinks way too highly of herself and whatever she can bring to NY's high society.

R64, you're talking about [italic]Our Kind of People[/italic] by Lawrence Otis Graham, right? [italic]Black Society[/italic] by Geraldyn Hodges Major and [italic]Certain People [/italic] by Stephen Birmingham cover the same ground without Graham's smug, self-congratulatory tone. [italic]The Wedding [/italic] by Dorothy West is another good fictional account.

Good to know

Marian also showed no awareness whatsoever at Peggy’s level of comfort going into that shop where they encountered Mrs. Chamberlin. This might have been a hint at what was the come at the Scott house.

Yes, R75. I couldn’t remember his name and was too lazy to Google. I’ll look into those other books. Thanks for that. It’s an interesting topic.

Oprah produced a two-part miniseries version of [italic]The Wedding[/italic] that aired on ABC in 1998.

Shelby Coles (Halle Berry), a debutante, wants to marry Meade Howell (Eric Thal), a broke white jazz musician. Both of their families have serious misgivings (natch). The plot also delves into the troubled marriage of Shelby's parents, Clark and Corinne (Michael Warren and Lynn Whitfield); Clark, a dark-skinned doctor, married wealthy, light-skinned Corinne not for love but to climb the social ladder.

[quote][R64], you're talking about Our Kind of People by Lawrence Otis Graham, right? Black Society by Geraldyn Hodges Major and Certain People by Stephen Birmingham cover the same ground without Graham's smug, self-congratulatory tone.

Lawrence Otis Graham was an exceptionally self-loathing person. He had his skin lightened and his nose narrowed because of his discomfort with being black, despite his constant championing of the black upper classes. He eventually committed suicide.

r79, I'd possible read the book, but it looks like a mixed-race "love story" which feels to treacly for me

I'd watch with joy a spinoff based on The Cunting of the Butlers. That scene was a delight. I agree with those mentioning the gorgeous costumes, especially those worn by Mrs. Russell. I gay-gasped at that scarlet cloak she wore to the symphony. Gorgeous! The scene with the shoes was painful to watch, which I'm sure was the point. Yeesh, I'd have crawled away in humiliation. I also felt the ambush seduction of Mr. Russell by the maid was ridiculous. Too soon for her to make such a bold move so the whole situation felt rushed. I think this show with all the characters would flow a lot better if there wasn't an attempt to shove as many as possible into a single episode. It makes the scenes feel choppy and hurried. One of the things I love most about Robert Altman's film Nashville is how the characters and their story arcs seemed to enter into the main story seamlessly. There were so many characters, yet I never really felt confused. Not sure if that approach would work for a series, though.

*too

I wish they'd take out the subplot with Michael Cerveris. It's not going anywhere, and he is such an awesomely ugly man.

But he is a pinball wizard!

because his head is so round?

There is someone in wardrobe having a running joke on Ada/Miranda. Her hats are ridiculously ugly. The one she wore to the Red Cross luncheon only needed a pair of mule ears sticking out to complete the look.

they look super authentic though

I heart R87. Funny and dead on.

Maybe Nixon is on it: I am such an actress I can play a finger banged late life chrysalis and a Persian Lamb haired virgin Pittypat.

Next Monday, seriously, I'm either taking a swig or doing a shot every time somebody says "My, dear."

It's the new Poor Edith.

Was he straight, R80? Because I got the impression that might have been an issue, too. I only came across him in person once. At a party for his (first?) book about his experience working at a Westchester country club. I never read the book, but in the excerpts there wasn’t anything I hadn’t experienced as a white kid who coincidentally worked at the same country club. Not trying to claim black employees had the same as experience as me, I’m sure they didn’t. I just don’t think the guy was good writer and and he definitely seemed to have issues.

[quote] I only came across him in person once. At a party for his (first?) book about his experience working at a Westchester country club.

His first book was actually published during his first year at Princeton! One of the things that was so remarkable about him was how driven he was--he started publishing books on getting into colleges as soon as he left high school. He wrote many, many books before he died.

He had a lot of issues, yes. He may well have been gay, although when he killed himself, he left behind a wife and children. Maybe that was part of the problem.

will gilded have more suicides?

Okay, enough about some dead gay black queen.

I hope the writers are reading these threads.GET RID OF MARIAN!!! She’s stinking up the place.

R93 one can only hope

No! Not the Brookses. Sorry. I meant are the Russells supposed to be Jews, or figurative Jews, in because because the Dowager Baranski jokes that she didn’t like “their tribe”.

R97 I don’t think she meant it that way. She also said NY is a collection of villages. That would imply tribal behavior.

[quote]will gilded have more suicides?

Eventually every character will commit suicide. It will be like Jonestown, except on Fifth Avenue in the 1880s.

I absolutely believe we are to infer the Russells are Jewish (Morgan Spector is actually Jewish) but Fellowes and the writers clearly don't have the guts to actually say they are Or, at least, George Russell is Jewish. I mentioned this two threads ago.

Why? There has to be a basis for an inference.

Only the money, but the Vanderbilts weren’t. I see no reason to think that they are. I think people are conflating pecuniary striving people with “Jews”.

^ That’s what I feel, r100.

That first shot of Morgan Spector in the show he looked incredibly dark and swarthy, like an actual Greek sailor I know. He sticks out like a sore thumb among the WASP characters. He had to be cast for a reason, as he’s not that good of an actor.

I love hot, hairy Jewish guys with beards so Morgan Spector is pretty much my ideal man. Like the ladies maid, I basically would have been presenting hole too.

Hard to imagine no one would mention it.

It would be unlikely the Russells would be trying to break into Knickerbocker society if they were practicing Jews: that was pretty much an insurmountable difference in those days. Extremely wealthy devout Jewish families in NYC like the Warburgs and the Strauses socialized with one another and not among the goyim due to the anti-Semitism of the time. (Similarly, the Catholic millionaires would mostly only socialize with one another, like the Kennedys and Fitzgeralds in Boston.)

On the other hand, if you converted from judaism, like August Belmont (born Augustus Schönberg) did, you could be considered more acceptable. He made his way into high society, and his son was Alva Vanderbilt's second husband after she divorced Willie Vanderbilt. On "Downtown Abbey" they made clear that Cora, Lady Grantham's father, also a new York millionaire, was raised Jewish but converted to protestantism, but that her mother was protestant and that Cora and her brother had been raised as Protestants.

So, if George Russell is revealed to have been born Jewish, he will almost certainly turn out to have converted to Protestantism. Same with Bertha if she turns out to have been raised Catholic or Jewish.

We should find out soon. in those days going to church every Sunday was a major part of people's social lives, so I would be surprised if we did not see that.

Jay Gould was swarthy, and he was Presbyterian (even despite the name).

[quote] Lady Grantham's father, also a new York millionaire, was raised Jewish but converted to protestantism, but that her mother was protestant and that Cora and her brother had been raised as Protestants.

If Cora’s mother wasn’t Jewish, then she wasn’t a Jew.

R107, that’s not really “swarthy.”

My least favourite storyline is the racist Irish scullery maid and the housekeeper. What a fucking yawn. I get that Julian Fellowes is paying lip service to Me Too with her, but it’s pretty ineffectual. He also realised the he would need to deal with black characters given the setting as well as the current climate, but the Peggy storyline is actually really interesting on several levels and is better acted, so it works.

[quote] Peggy Scott meeting the printer guy is fun, and he’s hot to boot. I actually LOVED the scene in Brooklyn where the residents out of some snobbery and protectiveness look upon the outsider, miss brooks, with barely veiled contempt

I liked the look into black, middle class New York. And I liked the black guys sitting on the stoop watching Peggy storm off followed by Marion. It reminded me of Sesame Street.

The biggest problem with the servant storylines is that all the Van Rhijn servants (except for the butler) seem genuinely mentally challenged.

Why would the Russells have no clue how to set a table or what to serve? You’d think they would have the finest staff to pull off their grand entrance into high society. Even I know you don’t have colored glasses at a formal dinner table.

But technically it wasn't formal dinner table setting. It was just family dinner, right?

You would think the Russells hired some kind of expert to teach them the ways of the NY400 before trying to join them? I mean, even back then it must've been obvious that they have their own rules and etiquette?

R95: Marian is probably supposed to be our eyes and ears in her naiveity. She's sort of essential as the outsider who starts out not caring about all the rules, but of course will get sucked in to some extent. Replacing the Streeplet with a better actress would fix some of the problem.

R100: I wonder if you're the same poster who has raised the Jewish thing on the previous threads. It's repeatedly been addressed and the model of Jay Gould constantly reinforced. There are lots of people who can be a little swarthy who would still be in the realm of social acceptablility---Black Irish (although he wouldn't be Irish Irish and survive in society, but could have intermarried ancestors) or German (lots of dark krauts); Belgian or French perhaps---the Heugonots were accepted by the Brits (many settled in Ireland) because they were Protestant. You really need to see the world or at least someplace where everyone isn't an Aryan.

What about Scottish people in America in the 1890s, were they also discriminated against? Did they have it as bad as the Irish, or was there a distinction?

I, too, adored the cuntlery scene. It was delicious.

I wonder if the actress playing Miss Turner was selected for her physical resemblance to Carrie Coon. Perhaps she’ll be murdered in a case of mistaken identity?

Uncle Julian loves the correct, so his way of showing how arriviste the Russells are is through things like coloured glasses on the table and apparently equally clueless household staff. I just feel like the characters are suspended mid air... you don't get a sense of their failings or weaknesses or lack of understanding of the world they want to enter. I can tell if Bertha is the height of style or the height of garish... old New York seems very fussily dressed, a few years behind the fashions. Would even Mrs. Astor not wear the latest?

In the previous thread someone mentioned that the story of Mr Morris kneeling and begging not to be wiped out is based on a real incident between Commodore Vanderbilt and another person.

I can't find anything while looking at stories about Vanderbilt online.

Who was the other man?

The Russells wouldn’t have any idea how Old Money set a table because they had never been to an Old Money dinner. It’s also likely that they couldn’t hire the top tier staff. Servants could be just as snobby as their employers. Slutty maid only deigned to work for Bertha because her former Old Money employer died.

I would assume even back then servants would look and employer who pays well. The Russell seem to be throw money at anyone who's willing to work for them.

Thank you for starting a new thread. It only took me a few hours to find this, and it's already one fifth of the way full! Maybe I will check out the alternative and competing Thread Four as well.

I hate the narrative choice to keep Mrs. Astor on the periphery. If she's the Queen B and gatekeeper of the Old Guard she should be front and center.

R116, the Scots had, for the most part, arrived much earlier and they were Protestant, so, no, they did not have the same problems.

R124 is right. A large percentage of the first European immigrants in the 18th century were Scots-Irish... for the most part Protestants who left Northern Ireland (Ulster) to settle in America. 23 American Presidents have been Scots-Irish or Scots.... so they weren't part of the original Dutch families in NYC or puritan/pilgrim families in New England, but they were definitely WASP, and claimed a much higher rung on the social ladder than the Irish who came in the 19th century.

And these class/ethnicity questions are not off topic on these threads.... central theme of Gilded Age seems to be exactly these fine delineations.

Which bring me to Marion... just is an innocent, a country bumpkin, a rube... and the "shoes" in her bag as barged into the Scott house wasn't a "well intended" gesture... it was incredibly inappropriate, and a more sophisticated person would never have even opened the bag at that point. A "city woman of the right class" (would never bring the shoes, would never arrive uninvited, would likely turn down an invitation) would have sized the situation up, never opened the bag, and immediately left. Marion as an actress is meh, but as a character is a doofus.

The great old Knickerbocker clan that Agnes van Rhijn proudly lays claim to on her mother's side, the Livingstons, were originally Scottish. Scots were fine because they were Presbyterians.

[quote] I hate the narrative choice to keep Mrs. Astor on the periphery. If she's the Queen B and gatekeeper of the Old Guard she should be front and center.

You run into the problem there of having a real person in a fictional narrative. If she's front and center, we can't have major incidents in her life because they would have to accord with reality. Already we know, for example, that Oscar van Rhijn, on the lookout to marry an heiress, cannot marry Mrs. Astor's daughter Carrie from the first and second episodes, even though she's the right age, of the right background, and of the right wealth, because Carrie Astor will marry someone else in 1884.

Mrs. Astor, Clara Barton, T. Thomas Fortune, and Ward McAllister are doomed to play small roles, because if they played larger roles they'd have to be involved in storylines that would fuck up too much with actual history,.

On the "Inside the Episode" feature on the BO website, Julian Fellowes confirms what was speculated above: that the character Sylvia Chamberlain is indeed largely based on Arabella Huntington, the second wife of the railroad tycoon Collis P. Huntington and once the richest woman in the United States.

Gould does seem Jewish, but why not?

[quote]seem genuinely mentally challenged.

I think the footman is just young, not challenged. He just needs a sweet lady that he can show that he too is a gentleman (in his sort of low-class way)

Jay Gould was Presbyterian and then a member of the Reformed (Calvinist) Church. He was also of Scottish stock.

He had a long beard

R132, that was a popular style then.

indeed, it was

There is a huge plot hole in that in what Universe the Schermerhorn would have a newly arrived lawyer (Raikes) with no connections in their private box at the opera? And not only have him but put him in the place or honor?

If Aunt Agnes tought that he was now suitable for her penniless niece, the kin of Caroline Astor would not have him there or have any sort of conversation with him.

Julian Fellowes said that he finds cool, efficient, strong women really attractive. Hence, Lady Mary in Downton Abbey, who is next door to cunt but is vulnerable enough to all of those qualities he admires and not be loathesome.

Carrie Coon gets some of that but she’s a naturally warmer, self-deprecating character and is “acting” the superiority so much she seems vile.

Someone like a younger Ashley Judd would have been ideal. Or Natalie Portman, if the Jewish issue wouldn’t be taken to its logical conclusion.

Whatever, they need to kill off Marian and get rid of Streep the 9th.

Agreed, R135. That wasn't explained well at all.

it made for a great visual

I think the spurned (for now) ladies maid deliberately set Bertha up to wear that Jezebel looking outfit to the symphony. Russell told her the only reason he was keeping her was due to how much guidance she offered.

the lady's maid and valet got to see you junk and such as they dressed you, maybe the hussy lady's maid will now grab Bertha's snatch in retaliation

Couple thoughts:

We get to see the maid's boobs all clear and for minutes (albeit not in a sexy way at all), while Spector's apparently very hairy ass is barely visible for a split second: Not fair! Know your audience, Julian!

Baranski seems to be reduced to better cameos. Her character never seems to leave the house or even that one room. Her lines seem to give the marching order for the episode, but the plot happens elsewhere.

Personally, I love Coon's physical performance. Unlike all the other old-money ladies, her body almost has a certain swagger. When she comes down the stairs or enters a room - it's an entrance. Hips are moving, elbows all out. Bertha is not subtle. Love it.

The maid's clumsy attempt to bed the master of the house is such an worn out trope. Really not looking forward for that story to unfold.

Still cannot get past the artificial look of the exteriors. It screams studio backlot everywhere. Not becoming for a period drama. If you cannot pull it off, don't do it at all.

I like the brooklyn scenes

I really don't understand why the Russells, with all of those millions to throw around, wouldn't have the most knowledgeable and experienced servants that could be hired. Just as they have imported a French chef, I would think the hiring could have been done in Paris and London.

Was "Knickerbocker" in the 1880s considered a nasty slur or would the term have been used by the Old Money people themselves?

R136 ‘Acting’ the superiority is vile? And my god what do you see in Natalie Portman that she could have done the role? Her 11yo girl voice? Ashley Judd? Well god, if you like that sort of thing. She was plucky for exactly 1-2 roles in the 90s before revealing herself to be freakishly nuts.

Why are there two 'HBO's The Gilded Age: Thread Four" threads<

Can they be merged for the convenience of the commentariat????

I know it was mentioned in earlier threads but might bear repeating now: Amanda Peet was first cast as Bertha, went through initial wardrobe fittings and then ultimately left The Gilded Age, after repeated postponements, to write and produce that Sandra Oh Netflix series The Chair. Frankly, I think she'd have been even worse than Carrie Coon.

R80 what is your source for Lawrence Otis Graham committing suicide? Never heard that anywhere, even from people who knew him.

Carrie Coon could do it, she just doesn't get anything to work with. She seems to dote on Larry. Arguably she showed something when she ordered Ada's missing dog be bathed and fed. But except for one scene in one line with George, ("each useless without the other", which I recall because about the only thing she said that was out of character) she's only given material to strut around being bossy. On the flip side, it would also be interesting to understand why George loves this marauder.

They should be given some scenes where Bertha can show some tough minded fairness or hard-edged compassion, something to show there's more to her than ambition. She is not JR or Alexis... the Bertharaptor is not fun to fate. When Blake Carrington was a fully written hardass asshole in season one of Dynasty he was softened by a wry sense of humour and a bit of sarcasm and his deep love for his daughter. Bertharaptor is written and played like an automaton.

And to add, if the automaton is on purpose: why? We're not born to be that cold and mechanical. Unless there's a Berth the Ripper storyline coming where she vents her frustration killing servants or prostitutes.

Un less she has an emotional outburst, Coon is pretty monotone. The writing doesn't help but there have been moments where she could have been the plucky underdog or someone we'd love to hate and she hasn't delivered.

The show has too many characters--they should have saved most of the downstairs story lines for a second season and left us with the butlers and ladies maids who have obvious utility for stories involving their employers. Marian needs to be a better audience guide--the writing is weak, but also the Streeplet is awful---she isn't good at curiosity (or incuriosity in the case of Brooklyn) and doesn't even do naive that well.

[quote]Un less she has an emotional outburst, Coon is pretty monotone. The writing doesn't help but there have been moments where she could have been the plucky underdog or someone we'd love to hate and she hasn't delivered.

I hear you on that. When Fellowes took away Violet's scorpion tail on Downton, Smith seemed to outrun the sappiness by playing her like a kind of world weary veteran who laughed at the absurdity of pretty much everything. Coons just seems to be marching forward relentlessly at all times. I did laugh this week when she said something like obviously you children aren't planning on asking either of us for a favour any time soon.

Hopefully, Season 2 will include Meryl as a Salvation Army volunteer who beats Marian to death with her collection pot.

Or at least takes those shoes off her hands.

[quote]Was "Knickerbocker" in the 1880s considered a nasty slur or would the term have been used by the Old Money people themselves?

Neither, exactly. The Knickerbocker Club was and is the most prestigious men's club in Manhattan, and was named for Father Diedrich Knickerbocker, a character from a Washington Irving book who is an old Dutch New Yorker (as was Irving himself). So many of the men of the Old Money set belonged to the club that the newspapers started using "Knickerbocker" (which is supposed to be an old Dutch name, hailing from the days of New Amsterdam) as a name for members of this set. More generally it became eventually used as a term for people from NYC in general, which is why the city's basketball team became known as the Knickerbockers (shortened to the Knicks).

The people in this set would not have used a term to refer to themselves except for phrases like "our kind of people," which is what Agnes always says. They would not have objected to "Knickerbocker" from others because it was always meant respectfully, but people in exclusive sets rarely name themselves as a set.

[quote]On the flip side, it would also be interesting to understand why George loves this marauder.

It’s pretty clear that he is no saint Francis. He happily ruined the lives of his rivals and his only worry about the dead alderman was that there would be blowback. They are two peas in a pod

And really there should be more blowback r157. Maybe some next week, but for now it seems to have fallen into the Conflict-Quick Resolution-Conflict-Quick Resolution pattern that shows fall into so often.

I do believe that united, the Russells are strong, because they have each others' backs. I think the ladys maid is one way how this strong alliance is going to be fractured. And that's why she's still in the story. George is now aware that there is a wet pussy waiting for him if his wife is too busy with her social game.

I imagine as soon as the Russells are no longer a united team (not supporting each other and too busy doing their own thing), they run out of luck and start to lose their magic touch.

I would like to see George fucking that maid from behind bent over his pool table.

I’d really prefer it if it was Larry, but I’ll take the maid.

At this point I'd like to get more backstory for many of the main characters, particularly the Russells (which city were they in before NYC? What ethnicities are they? How did George rise to the top and take over railroad corporations? What did Bertha's father do for a living, and how did she meet George?), but also for the Brooks (how were they wealthy before their father died and their brother squandered their fortune? How did Agnes's husband find her down in Bucks County and bring her up to NYC? What awful things exactly did Agnes's husband do to her? Is Ada actually retarded, or just silly?).

People, the show just started!

We are 4 episodes in! Let’s enjoy what they’re giving us and all these questions will eventually be answered.

Of course, if you have no patience for it then just stop watching. Come back when everything is known.

R161, Ada told Marian that Mr. van Rhijn was "not a man to be alone with", or something close to that; so let your imagination run free.

I'm just now reading this thread, and I apologize for bringing this back up, but Our Kind of People by Lawrence Otis Graham is a fascinating book. I skimmed some of the other sections, but the section on my hometown, Memphis, was very interesting.

Back to bitching about Coon's flat delivery and Streepling's ineptness.

Was Christine Baranski shooting The Good Fight and Gilded Age at the same time? Maybe that's why Agnes doesn't really have a story, Baranski was just too busy to do a whole lot.

Good Lord, r162. Control problems much? You must have been toilet trained by Joan Crawford.

I'm Not One Of Your Fans!

Edith Wharton and Anthony Trollope, two of Fellowes' biggest inspirations, wrote large cast novels that never dealt with the servants as major characters, they rarely were even given names. They were seen (barely() but never heard. I suppose the popularity of bringing the help into the story lines began with Upstairs Downstairs.

In any case, I agree that we don't need to know much about the servants in this season, especially if it's all going to be parceled out in such meager dribs and drabs, like the cook's gambling addiction and the butler's mysterious wanderings.

r168, a show needs to establish characters and their mysteries to keep people interested. If you think it's too much (too soon) for you, then maybe the show isn't suited for your limited attention span capacity.

Sky Comedy in the UK is showing Sex And The City from the start an in episode 2 Cynthia Nixon aka Ada Brook goes to dinner with Katie Finneran, aka the recently bereaved Mrs Morris.

I'm just not invested in minor characters who are only given a minute or two of insipid screen time per week, r169. And so far, after 4 episodes, it hasn't amounted to anything intriguing. How many times can we see the housekeeper harrumph as she polishes the silver or the little one (not even sure what her household position is) worry about the butler's wanderings....and where did the cook's gambling issues go....that lead to....nothing....

I'd rather those 2 minutes were employed to expand on some of the major characters' story lines and background history. If you can be satisfied with the current format, good for you, but you're the one with the limited attention span.

Basically these days political correctness demands that if you have a historical drama about the wealthy you have to show life both upstairs and downstairs. So those of you wishing that Julian Fellowes's dramas only dealt with the wealthy might as well be wishing the sun would rise in the west and would set in the east.

[quote] If you can be satisfied with the current format, good for you, but you're the one with the limited attention span.

You're the one complaining about having to see trivial stuff that, surely, amounts to nothing. Why not go along for the ride? Oh no, you can't have that, because your time is precious and can't be wasted on trivial matters you may have to remember later on!

Then, when these little moments do amount to something it's like "woah, this came out of nowhere, such lazy writing!".

r173, we shall see who will be saying woah! - or whoa! - about those servants in the near future.

xoxoxo

Except, R169, it isn't doing that. There's a big cast and we know virtually nothing about them and have little motivation to care.

And your grandness is like a fart. Trust the news isn't "too much" for you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing the servants in. Most people here seem to have loved the cunting butler scene. But you can't just throw a lot of nonsense in with a lot of characters and hope anyone gives a damn. The Russell ladies maid could be an interesting character. So far, they decided to do the big loud stupid thing and have her throw herself at the Master, but they don't have to make stupid decisions like that. They could be a little subtle about it.

Girls! Girls! You're both the wrong sort of people to be invited to Mrs. Astor's!!

There's nothing wrong with bringing the servants in but what this series has failed to do is give us any reason to care about them.

The exception so far was the beloved butler cunting scene because it actually established those characters in a fresh and engaging way. All of the other servant scenes have been silly and unnecessary (the cook and her candlesticks) or pathetically predictable (the hussy maid) or simply pre-mature (we've barely met the Irish scullery maid so why should we care about her history of abuse?).

Somehow, Fellowes was able to (mostly) make the servant stories work in DA, at least in the first season. But right out of the gate, O'Brien the ladies maid, Thomas the footman, Daisy the scullery maid and Mrs. Padmore the cook were more engaging characters. Maybe it was just because we saw that series first....I don't know.

[quote] In any case, I agree that we don't need to know much about the servants in this season, especially if it's all going to be parceled out in such meager dribs and drabs, like the cook's gambling addiction and the butler's mysterious wanderings.

I like the two butlers and the chefs. The gambling addiction, the bitch Brooks housekeeper, the slut, and the Special Victims maid are simply filler.

Downton worked because it was one house: one family, one staff. This is Noah's yacht - plus a punch of neighbours.

New seasons of Good Fight and Gilded are both scheduled to start shooting soon so I’m guessing Baranski will be doing double duty.

Yes, Baranski did double duty on TGA and TGF in fall of 2020 to late winter 2021. I gather that an effort was made to postpone TGF’s season until after TGA’s S2 concluded in November but that ain’t happening. The relentless uncertainty re: Covid is no doubt a factor.

The slutty maid could be interesting if she was working to sabotage Bertha in some way.

Agree, r183, but with just a little subtlety. The idea of the maid that she keeps looking to, who helps her but also secretly despises her, could be interesting. And it seemed to start that way, but then everyone went into a panic that we wouldn't all "get it" so they had to have her throw herself at the husband in the most obvious and stupid way.

It may be the reason Agnes has been pretty much confined to one set is so she can film a season's scenes for TGA almost all at once, which allows her to do the two series.

But is Baranski worth it?

I'm not so sure.

I think Baranski is definitely worth it, but they could try a little harder to give her more to do.

EP 5: Ada fingers the Russell girl. They lez out and smoke some good stuff. Agnes sharts herself in public, the reason she hardly leaves the house,

Has Agnes even interacted with Mrs. Astor or the Fanes or Morris family? Why is she part of this elite old money 400 list if she never attends any of their functions or planning committees? Is she an agoraphobe?

R189, in one of the more resonant things I've read about New York's social scene, someone explained that going to all of the benefits and parties is mandatory. It's the price paid for belonging to such a world. "These are people you've known since childhood." If you miss someone's party, it's understood that you will be punished by not being invited to some other events. Then, you are forgiven if you get back on the treadmill.

R189: Older women were not expected to be out and be seen. She writes people (and checks) rather than going out a lot. They also tended to cultivate special status by rarely being seen and only occasionally inviting people to visit.

I could imagine Agnes is also somewhat ashamed of her brute of a husband and what her peers know about him. That's why she stays at home for most of the time.

Where is she going to go? She has maids and staff and has everyone and everything brought to her.

Maybe she will go out to buy clothes? Then again, she probably as them made for her.

Mrs. Manson Mingott, aka Catherine Spicer, rarely left her house except to go to the opera during opera season and to travel to Newport.

Agnes uses Ada to attend all those functions.

I doubt anybody knows about her brute of a husband. At that time, the dirt was kept in the family. Hell, the dirty was kept in the family though the 1980s. Longer in mine.

It would have been known but not discussed except behind closed doors.

Yes, that's probably closer to the truth than my original theory, R197. There'd have been mutterings. Some would have believed them, some would have dismissed them.

Und den only vispered in mein ear....

Right and ye know Eye'd nevaire dream a tellin' except did Aye have a wee dram un de episodes Em frum Scutlund.

How I wish Agnes and Ada had been played by M and G.

Psycho scheming ladies maid is an old, tired trope right out of daytime soaps. Blackmail, suicide or poisoned mistress sure to follow.

I'm really scared since Nathan L. is on that sooner or later we will see the deformed and annoying Kristin Chenowith as something or other.......maybe the daughter of The Elephant Man.

Surely with that face and build she'll be a starving immigrant child, begging in the street.

Do not speak of me, r194. We have not been formally introduced. Who are your people??

r60 I'm hoping that Bertha, being the watchful momma raptor that she is, didn't take well to Raikes behavior toward Marian and is suspicious of him and his fast come up. Maybe she will send a note to Agnes letting her know that the lawyer is sniffing around her niece and gain favor and maybe get a face to face audience?

r77 I think that Marian is supposed to be a wide eyed innocent and sees Peggy much the same way as she sees herself as they are the same age and carry themselves in the same manner out in public. She had no problem engaging Peggy at the train station and didn't balk when Peggy had money to lend her, I feel, because she felt she was with another young woman similar to herself.

She hit a brick wall, however, when she considered what it might be like to visit Peggy in her own neighborhood not due to being a bigot but because she has so little understanding outside of her own world as a white woman. Any narrative she picked about Black people up from other white people, which is the only place she would get any information, might often paint a very different picture than the reality that Peggy actually lives in.

I like her as a young character from which we can view the inner workings of this world, upper class and working, class, just hope they do a better job as the series goes on.

I am 99.9 percent certain that Agnes’ husband made her do anal.

[quote]The biggest problem with the servant storylines is that all the Van Rhijn servants (except for the butler) seem genuinely mentally challenged.

aka American working class

r126 so what made the Irish unwelcome, the Catholic Irish or Protestant or just being Irish in general?

[quote] Mrs. Manson Mingott, aka Catherine Spicer, rarely left her house except to go to the opera during opera season and to travel to Newport.

Although that was mostly because she was so fat. They were going to have to use carpenters to open up a pew for her access had she gone to Newland Archer's and May Mingott's wedding, but in the end she decided to just throw the wedding breakfast and skip the ceremony.

I love Winona Ryder’s performance in The Age of Innocence and how she plays that character. You don’t know 100% what’s up with her until the end when she hosts Ellen’s farewell dinner party which is essentially an elaborate “kiss-off, bitch. I’ve known about this all along.”

[quote]Personally, I love Coon's physical performance. Unlike all the other old-money ladies, her body almost has a certain swagger. When she comes down the stairs or enters a room - it's an entrance. Hips are moving, elbows all out. Bertha is not subtle. Love it.

Although I long ago retired my dick from the "fairer" side of the population, when I was young I would have wanted to fuck the swagger out of Miss Bertha.

To R163, maybe her husband demanded sex from her in the sitting room, banging the fuck out of that frigid beyotch. Maybe Agnes had to "give him Head"and stroke her dirty pussy at the same time. Maybe anal!!

Maybe he liked boys and only did his duty to beget the son and heir.

[quote] [R126] so what made the Irish unwelcome, the Catholic Irish or Protestant or just being Irish in general?

It's a complicated matter.

The Americans broke from England, but at the same time they identified with the English, and shared their prejudices.

The Irish were considered to be at the bottom of the heap of the people of the four nations of the United Kingdom because they were a conquered nation within more recent historical memory--Scotland had joined the union with England willingly when James VI of Scotland became James I of England, and moved from Edinburgh to London. Wales had been conquered centuries ago, and the majority of the Welsh had joined the majority of English people in changing their religion from Catholic to Protestant when Henry VIII broke with the Church of Rome.

But the Irish had no reason to do since in Henry VIII's time they were not part of the Crown. England conquered Ireland under his daughter Elizabeth I, and then conquered it again under William III, and the English sent their own people overseas to maintain rule there--most Irish Protestants are descendants of those original settlers (known as "the Protestant Ascendancy"). But Ireland remained overwhelmingly Catholic, and it was the Catholics who suffered most from the Great Potato Famine in the 1840s, and who emigrated overseas.

When the Irish started coming to the US especially in the 1840s and after, they were treated as outsiders because most of them were Catholic, and the dominant religion of the United States was still Protestant, because the Thirteen Colonies had been settled primarily by the British and the Dutch. Moreover, when they emigrated they were dirt-poor, and to have any hope of making money at all some of the younger men formed gangs, which were seen as a huge problem in the mid nineteenth century. Already the longer-term families in the US viewed Catholics in general with great suspicion given the history of Catholic and Protestant rivalry in the UK, and the Irish were also seen as the poorest and the least educated of immigrants, and so were much despised.

The Scots were seen by the English and American establishments alike as better than the Irish, mostly because so many of the Scottish settlers were Presbyterians. They also had a stereotyped reputation for many positive characteristics, such as industry and thrift, that accorded well with the Puritan traditions on which the US was originally founded. The success of Scottish settlers like the Carnegies or the Livingstons was thus not as much resented as the success of Irish Catholics like the Kennedys and Fitzgeralds by the older settled US families on the East Coast.

Even in the last 75 years the anti-Irish prejudice has some strength in the US establishment. It was thought remarkable JFK could be elected president since he was the first non-Protestant to win his party's nomination, and keep in mind that Joe Biden is only the second! Apparently Joe Biden's mother still loathes the English because of the prejudice her family suffered from them.

I would say this thread, like every other on Datalounge, has regressed to the most boorish and debauched, but that would be beating a dead Mr. Morris.

Thank you r126 I guess this is answers the questions I've had about Christians hating Catholics and despising Catholics so much? They don't really consider them as having Christian fellowship with them in any way shape or form.

Any speculation on who Michael Cerveris is watching? Is it Joshua Jackson?

When Celia Keenan-Bolger (as Cerveris' household's housekeeper or maybe she's a maid - it's still unclear to me) followed him, he was watching a lady in a scarlet dress enter a brownstone. Take it FWIW. I guess we're meant to think that she (Keenan-Bolger) is crushing on Cerveris.

And can someone correct me on Keenan-Bolger's position in the Russell household? I guessed that maybe she was the housekeeper but surely she's too young and playing it too reserved and shy for such an important position? Yet I don't think there's another lady servant there we've met who would be the housekeeper.

[quote]I guess this is answers the questions I've had about Christians hating Catholics and despising Catholics so much?

Catholics ARE Christians. I think you mean Protestants.

Catholics and Protestants have a long and difficult history in Europe. After Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic church and Protestantism began to be practiced across Europe, there were all kinds of horrible situations: murders, massacres, and wars.

The problem have been exacerbated in the British Isles. After Henry VIII of England broke from the Catholic church and started persecuting Catholics, the country had a long history of switching from Protestant to Catholic and back again to Protestant monarchs: there were terrible acts of persecution on both sides. In Ireland, the Protestant English conquered the Catholic natives and maintained rule for hundreds of years: the country now has to deal with both a Catholic majority and a Protestan=t minority, and Northern Ireland (which is still part of the UK, and which still has more Protestants than Catholics) has had decades of violence between the two sides.

[quote] And can someone correct me on Keenan-Bolger's position in the Russell household? I guessed that maybe she was the housekeeper but surely she's too young and playing it too reserved and shy for such an important position? Yet I don't think there's another lady servant there we've met who would be the housekeeper.

Her character is the Russell housekeeper. Like Turner, she is a more recent hire to the Russell household.

Housekeepers have to maintain order downstairs (with the help of the butler) and has to act as an intermediary between the family who owns the household and the serving staff. They do not necessarily need to unreserved or bold--only responsible and organized.

Probably getting way off topic for this thread... but another comment about the Scots-Irish who came in the 1700s, vs earlier Dutch and Anglo settlers, and then later the Catholic Irish who arrived after 1840 and the potato famine. The Scots-Irish Presbyterians (as opposed to others who Anglo-Irish - Anglican etc.) were three time losers. As an ethnic group they couldn't make in Scotland and the North of England... and were taken (forced?) to settle in Ulster on "plantations" in the 1600s.... as a part of the Tudor conquest of Ireland. Then, they couldn't make it in Ulster to so came to America... many or most passing through big cities to "settle" the west. Appalachia, and all its inbreeding, was settled by the Scots-Irish. Ethnomusicologists see a direct correlation between bluegrass/hillbilly music and Scots-Irish.

"Settled" of course was a pretty questionable concept if you were Iroquois, Powhatan, Cherokee, Shawnee etc.

Don’t mention Oliver Cromwell to the Irish. He is still the most loathed English person in Irish History. He massacred whole towns in Ireland to subdue them.

On a lighter note, the music played at the end is the third movement of John Knowles Paine’a second symphony “ In the Spring”. I think in the series he is supposed to be conducting it. Never heard it before , gorgeous music. I love Romantic Symphonies.

It was beautiful music. I had not heard it before.

I'm glad they didn't just do the expected and have them listen to a familiar symphony or opera.

[quote]Has Agnes even interacted with Mrs. Astor or the Fanes or Morris family?

Yes, in the second episode Agnes and Ada both went to the charity bazaar that Mrs. Astor opened and that had been planned by Mrs. Fane and Mrs. Morris. All five women were in attendance when the Russells came in to buy up everyone's stock.

All these transatlantic Broadway actors. I’m waiting for David Hyde Pierce and Kelsey Grammer to show up.

[quote] Mrs. Astor, Clara Barton, T. Thomas Fortune, and Ward McAllister are doomed to play small roles, because if they played larger roles they'd have to be involved in storylines that would fuck up too much with actual history…

It seems Ward McAllister is part of history. Wiki says McAllister coined the phrase 'The 400" by declaring that there were "only 400 people in fashionable New York Society.'. The number was popularly supposed to be the capacity of Mrs William Backhouse Astor Jr.'s ballroom.

I don't know how this 400 aligned with the 'Upper Ten Thousand' coined in 1844 to denote the wealthiest 10,000 residents of NY.

[...]

[quote]It seems Ward McAllister is part of history.

DLers have been secretly, and sometimes not so secretly, controlling things for a very long time.

The Four Hundred was published in 1892. What year is it? I thought 1882 for some reason.

[...]

r231, "the 400" was a phrase used before McAllister published his book.

R233.

I can't find any evidence of that, other than your good opinion. Any links?

R235, McAllister had used the phrase in print in 1888, so it was almost certainly circulating before then.

[quote]The exception so far was the beloved butler cunting scene because it actually established those characters in a fresh and engaging way.

Well, there's that, but it was truly beloved here because it involved cunting.

Shut up, R9. Oh wait, she’s been blocked already. Excellent.

Cunts r Us

It’s 1882 in the show.

a high time to cunt around

[...]

I just wish he were gay and a huge slut

Please tell me those are prosthetic cheeks on Keenan-Bolger, and I'm not talking about her ass.

She's only just now graduating to playing adults. She and her brother, Andrew, have both been playing kids forever.

Didn't Celia recently win a Tony for playing Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird?

She’s in her 40s. I actually thought she was older but that may be attributed to the ever deadly wig/Botox combination.

[...]

[...]

It's a bit of stretch. Fellowes custom isn't to have bad apples masquerade and old dogs, new tricks. Besides, that twist sounds a bit soapy, but that's what you'd get at LSA.

What is LSA?

I know I will regret asking .

Lipstick Alley... another board. Someone here persists in pimping it and a two of low-information royalty commentators...

[quote]It's a bit of stretch. Fellowes custom isn't to have bad apples masquerade and old dogs, new tricks. Besides, that twist sounds a bit soapy, but that's what you'd get at LSA.

I don't know. While Raikes may not be a villain, it's too coincidental that it's railroad stocks - which have figured heavily in the fortunes of so many people in the show from the Russell's themselves to Fane and Morris.

The railroad stock comment was such a throwaway that it didn't really register. The audience focused on the fact she's poor and not that she owns the stock...which I'm wondering might actually be Russell's railroad which might now be worth a fortune with the new station.

From the first episode I thought the stocks were worth something, and I was hoping she would ask for them.

Is it normal during that era for a super wealthy man like Mr Russell to slept naked? I thought that kinda vulgar and classless.

R255 It stains the sheets too.

R255: New money is vulgar, what do you expect?

I'm thinking that since Mr. Raikes presented himself to Marian in front of Mrs. Fane and Bertha that those ladies might get together and check him out. Mrs. Fans must have some loyalty to Agnes since they both have been in society for a while? Don't they try to protect each other or do enjoy watching fucked up stuff happen to each other?

Mr Raikes wants one thing only - Anal

on a the top or on a the bottom with anal?

[quote]Apparently Joe Biden's mother still loathes the English because of the prejudice her family suffered from them.

12 years dead and still bearing a grudge. Impressive!

he will stop at nothing

[quote] Is it normal during that era for a super wealthy man like Mr Russell to slept naked?

That entire scene made no sense. It started with him being naked. Then the maid undressing before he is even awake. The entire discussion with her, ending him sending her back to her room. Why did he even discuss his love to his wife with the maid? If anything, he would have kicked her ass, right out the house immediately. I was wondering if there was an editing problem. In my head I am thinking there must have been an entire story line preceding this scene that didn't make it on air.

No, r263, just bad writing.

EP 6: A new lady arrives in town. She’s invented the indoor toilet and has made a fortune. She’s also in the confectionery business, mainly fudge. Her name is Mrs Patrick Campbell and her maid is called Tybee.

[quote] Is it normal during that era for a super wealthy man like Mr Russell to slept naked?

Quote the contrary.

[quote]I thought that kinda vulgar and classless

You’re betraying a very middle-class, Hyacinth Bucket, petit bourgeois sensibility. Only the middle classes feared nudity and appearing vulgar.

[quote]I'm thinking that since Mr. Raikes presented himself to Marian in front of Mrs. Fane and Bertha that those ladies might get together and check him out. Mrs. Fans must have some loyalty to Agnes since they both have been in society for a while? Don't they try to protect each other or do enjoy watching fucked up stuff happen to each other?

If Marian turned out to be uber-wealthy from holding Russell's railroad stock, I wonder how Agnes would react to her becoming extremely wealthy arising from the Russells.

r263 --

He didn't want the staff to know what happened and risk it getting mentioned out of the house. "They can't even hire the right staff, what makes them think they're 'our' type of people? "

He loved his wife and didn't want to cause her any pain and distress. She has enough anxiety, about getting accepted in society, without having to worry about a whore maid.

the maid is a slut

Hope the slutty maid gross titties will not be the only nudity in this show.

This is HBO after all.

If this was strictly a soap opera, I’d wager money that the slutty maid is the bio mom of the sheltered daughter.

It's about introducing the storyline. Now it's "How dare you, I love my wife!", but they found an excuse for her to stay around, so later he will fuck her when the wife's ignoring him and his needs. And it very well may be what will cause Anges to bond with Bertha, both having to deal with cheating husbands who embarrass their wives (Agnes in the past, Bertha now).

I thought Agnes' husband was a brutal man not a philandering one?

R263, the whole point of the nineteenth century was that impromptu shagging was usually out of the question, if only because of the way women dressed. Even a maid would have worn layers of clothing and a corset. That's too much to casually take off and put back on again. A bit of preamble was required: the maid would have flirted, suggested her availability, and Russell would have visited her later in some convenient place. He probably would brought along a gift as well, just to be nice about things.

[quote] I’d wager money that the slutty maid is the bio mom of the sheltered daughter.

she is brand new to the house, so not likely

[quote]Even a maid would have worn layers of clothing and a corse

but no undies, just lift the dress and go at it. men didn't wear them either, so no muss, no fuss.

But once again I must ask, if the ladies maid is new to the house is she really not indispensable and easily replaced?

None of it makes sense, Julian!

The slutty maid worked perviously in an Old Money household. She was hired expressly to advise Bertha in how to fit in.

Mrs. Pat, r265, was more likely to turn up at Downton Abbey, being a British Actress, but you obviously didn't know she was a real person, did you?

[quote] None of it makes sense, Julian!

How dare you? I took years out of my writer's life to research the subject matter.

"She was hired expressly to advise Bertha in how to fit in."

Well, she's certainly not doing a very good job. Another good reason to fire her!

Shouldn’t the maid be happy that she works for such rich people after her last employer died? Seems like pretty good job security (especially given her particular knowledge skill-set). Seems stupid to so actively sabotage herself.

Does she just need to be fucked constantly? I mean, I get THAT.

I want Mr. Raikes to present his hole.

maybe she can turn to prostitution

Matt Roush on tonight's episode:

Nathan Lane makes a memorable appearance as society gatekeeper Ward McAllister (an authentic historical character), who’s invited to meet social-climbing Bertha Russell (Carrie Coon) to ascertain her suitability. “I don’t want the facts. Only the gossip,” he declares as they’re introduced.

Another historical figure, Red Cross founder Clara Barton (Madam Secretary’s Linda Emond), also isn’t fooled by Bertha’s strategy of using charity as a “ladder to climb into the ballrooms of New York.” Not that it matters to her, as she reveals her progressive side by allowing herself to be interviewed by Peggy (Denée Benton) to the horror of the snobby matrons of 1880s New York.

Andrea Riseborough would have made such a better Bertha.

R285 What does "progressive" mean in this instance, in the 1880s.

"Progressive" is such a thoughtlessly over-used word.

Wow, R287. Take a history class. “Progressivism” was a much-discussed topic of late 19th century America.

In this context it obviously means it was extremely progressive to grant (a) a black and (b) a woman an interview. At that time it was probably outrageously progressive.

[quote] “Progressivism” was a much-discussed topic of late 19th century America.

Yes, they cried We Must have Progress! A Railway line into every town. A coal mine to bring wealth!

The Robber Barons loved PROGRESS,

It was LITERAL VIOLENCE that Billy Porter wasn't cast as Bertha. Think of everything we were denied.

Is Nathan Lane a credible character?

Have we seen the black-hearted Robber Baron being deceitful to his railway rivals?

r288, indeed, the age is often even called, "the progressive age" or "the age of progressivism "

R293 That sounds like revisionist history.

This says the slogan 'the age of progressivism' was only in use after 1940.

"The age of progress" commenced and then subsided from 1840. And that coincides with the Industrial Revolution, steam trains and farmworkers moved off their land to go into dirty factories.

I seem to remember the slut governess/maid saying that Bertharaptor will never get the old money's ways, no matter how much she tries to advise her about it.

Also, please make, "The Cunting of the Butlers" a future thread title.

This series is so bad at establishing characters we don't even know the name of the hussy maid. Does she have one? I really don't know....

Has anyone posted about Keith Taillon, a historian with an Instagram account devoted to keeping track of mistakes in The Gilded Age? Well, he's been rewarded with his own article in The New Yorker.

Miss Turner, I believe, is the name of the slutty maid

[quote] we don't even know the name of the hussy maid.

The master of the house wouldn't know the name of the maids.

Do they have names?

[quote]I seem to remember the slut governess/maid saying that Bertharaptor will never get the old money's ways, no matter how much she tries to advise her about it.

I wonder whether she'll need to get the old money ways. At a certain point, when you're as wealthy as Russell (or the Vanderbilts were at that point), Bertha was right at the charity auction, that kind of money makes everyone notice.

While the Astors might be able to ignore them, few of the 400 would have the type of wealth that the other excluded families (the ones building the new symphony house) have. Once they band together and start excluding the old money, the poorer ones will have to do as Fane and suck it up.

Nathan Lane is playing Ward McAllister as if he were playing Foghorn Leghorn.

I love Linda Emond as Clara Barton. She has such a beautiful voice, and such charisma as an actress.

Bertharaptor's going to be a fag hag! I love it!

Mizez Russell, after lunch, Ah wondah if we might spy on your huz-ban in the bath?

Mr. McAllister, if you get me into Mrs. Astor's place I'll let you spit roast him with Oscar Van Rhijn and Larry!

AuroraFane/Kelli O'Hara continues to pop for me. She's a darkhorse and terrific.

Overall, and I've been hard on this show, but a fun episode, wholly enjoyable.

Suddenly this thing's a hoot. Not much depth, but damned watchable!

The promo for the next episode looks interesting. It looks like we'll finally see Agnes go berserk and cross the street to go head-to-head with Bertha and embarrass her about something (what?) during the latter's luncheon with Ward McAllister.

If Anne Morris has no money and no home, how is she still on the board of the Red Cross?

Did Oscar the gay son ever meet Turner the slutty maid at the Shakespeare statue??

That was a weird set up with no pay back.

And what was with the scenes with Debra Monk, the harrumphing housekeeper, and her mother in the tenement?

The wretched writing continues to confound me.

Thank you R302 I was trying to come up with a description for his voice and you nailed it.

r309, the "Inside the Episode" feature at r307 will explain the scene with Armstrong and her nasty mother to you.

Baranski is doing a yeoman's job turning Agnes' snark on its head. She's developing a fairly nuanced character with hardly anything to work with.

I think Debra Monk is the long lost sister of Miss Turner, and when they find this out, they make plans to turn society on it's head and threaten to out all the gay men if they don't get a house on fifth avenue of their own. And then Ward Macalester get into the act, and kills them in cold blood with his walking stick (which conceals a very sharp knife.) He is beloved all the more after that happens, and has his choice of any man in Wall Street.

And then Bertharaptor and Agnes are forced to wear afternoon dresses at dinner, for lack of anyone to button them.

In some ways, I think they should have merged Mrs. Morris and Agnes.

Agnes doesn't really have a lot to do other than sit around and snark - which is fine for a while, but is a waste.

The real problem is that Agnes is the only character who seems like a worthy opponent for Bertha. Unfortunately, sheer snobbery is the least compelling motive. Now, if they had merged her story with Mrs. Morris, that would have made for much better motivation. I suppose that it would run the risk of making Agnes (more) unlikable.

This episode was a waste of an episode.

Slutty maid must be getting her revenge on Bertha by sticking her in whatever that hideous thing was she wore to the Clara Barton speech.

I wonder why the wife of a railroad magnate wouldn't have her own Pullman car?

I wonder if when Agnes finally crosses the street next episode to burst furiously into the Russell house, she does to their marble entrance hall the same thing that Beatrice Arthur notoriously did one hundred years later in Betty White's dressing room.

And with Ward McAllister there to witness, too! And since she's a Van Rhijn, no one could dare say a word against her for doing it. They'll all have to say the Russells brought it on themselves.

[quote] I wonder why the wife of a railroad magnate wouldn't have her own Pullman car?

How do we know she doesn't?

They went to Danville but Bertha was asking Raikes to include her in the arrangements. B being B the first thing she would have done is invite the gals because she could.

R302, What the fuck was that accent? He sounds like a plantation master from Georgia.

He was born in Savannah, Georgia, so as campy as Lane seems, it's not ham. The actual guy had a wife and three kids, so no Oscar on Foghorn action expected.

Ward Mcallister was from Savannah, GA originally, but that accent was too much.

I'll be curious to see how far they go with Bertha's attempts to dominate Gladys regarding marriage.

In real life, Bertha's main original, Alva Vanderbilt, literally locked her daughter Consuelo in her room in Marble House in Newport for days when Consuelo refused to marry the heir to the Duke of Marlborough, until Consuelo finally gave in. The marriage was eventually a disaster, as Consuelo had rightly predicted, because her husband was only interested in her for her money.

I do love Nathan Lane as Foghorn Leghorn.

I do not care about the help! They need to stop. There’s too many characters. One showed her tits and we still can’t remember her name. The help on this show should be seen, not heard. Peggy is an assistant not help and I would like for her story to continue. Marian’s a ho letting that man accompany her to her door. She cannot pretend she didn’t know it was inappropriate.

Did anyone notice Miss Billy Joe Mcallister flirting with Maid Marion's lawyer? I hope Agnes & the Widow Morris get Bertha cornered at one Mrs. Astor's balls & beat the cotton out of her, that high flyin', tater-digger's daughter!

Love the Agnes, Ada & Marion gossip sessions in the carriage.

[quote] The help on this show should be seen, not heard

All help should be merely glimpsed and certainly not heard

Cackling to myself because the first thing we said in our house when Nathan Lane shows up is: "Foghorn Leghorn!"

Followed by imitations of Mother Burnside from "Auntie Mame":

"Mother of Jefferson Davis, she's passing the fox!" and "Get that horse out of my bougainvillea!"

Another good episode.

The fashions continue to impress as well. I liked the first dress that Agnes was wearing, it was very pretty.

My goodness that Agnes woman/girl is so, so unattractive. Her hair is a travesty, and I say that as a curly-haired person as well. The actress looked worlds better when being interviewed at the end. Her friend was a hottie. He was treated like shit, though.

Nathan Lane is an actor that pulls you away from the scene because “It’s Nathan Lane!”

Why the panic when they heard about the train derailment? Accidents happen.

Why didn’t he just call Mr. Russell on the telephone?

Or send him a sexy morse code?

I lost my foreskin in Dansville, NY.

Sorry, meant Gladys, the Russell child, not the old matron.

I wondered if Debra Monk had just murdered her annoying mother (a 19th century Livia Soprano—I was waiting for her to say “I wish the Lord would take me now!”). Doesn’t there have to be a murder by one of the help in a Fellowes drama?

I feel like this entire first season might wind up just being nine episodes of exposition.

[quote] Did Oscar the gay son ever meet Turner the slutty maid at the Shakespeare statue??

He shares the outcome of said meeting with his lover in the restaurant. She agreed to be his spy in the Russell mansion.

What the Russells did to Gladys' suitor was harsh. Back then, mothers thought they knew better and pushed their daughters into the arms of vile men who had high social and financial standing. It's crazy that George trust that overly ambitious cunt of a wife of his. If divorce wasn't such a scandal back then I'd be sure that Bertha would leave him for someone with higher social standing in a heartbeat.

George was relatively clever with the suitor. Getting a job with a Jewish firm would keep him out of "society".

"Nathan Lane is playing Ward McAllister as if he were playing Foghorn Leghorn."

R302 - I always had a soft spot for Foghorn Leghorn and Chilly Willy.

Lane's chuckle for the character got tired by the end of the scene. And he did hold the hand of the dashing Rykes for a bit too long, offering his devoted services to the young man.

[quote]I do not care about the help! They need to stop. There’s too many characters. One showed her tits and we still can’t remember her name. The help on this show should be seen, not heard. Peggy is an assistant not help and I would like for her story to continue. Marian’s a ho letting that man accompany her to her door. She cannot pretend she didn’t know it was inappropriate.

The real problem is that there were too many characters introduced too soon. Screen time is a proxy for how important a character is. However, with so many characters, no one gets sufficient screen time to differentiate which stories are important or not.

They made a huge mistake in introducing so many characters and having to juggle them poorly.

The cast and stories need to be streamlined. It's one thing if you're a daytime soap and have one hour each day and need filler. It's another entirely when you have eight episodes. They need to sharpen focus on key storylines.

I think Lane did a great job.

The actress who played Clara Barton was wonderful too

Also, EVERY gay bar should be like that one

Peggy Scott’s line of, “you don’t have to, I SAW it!” Is wonderful

Lane was tiresome, but having a character whose role enables them to explain stuff about the plot is useful. He should have been in the first or second episode instead of now. Agnes also did some explaining. OTOH, it seemed too soon for Marian to let that rakish lawyer slip her the tongue. Peggy is emerging as the most fully formed of the female characters. Gladys needs a nose job.

Gladys is also in need of a good conditioner... that frizzy hair looks like she discovered electricity the hard way.

I appreciate that Fellowes avoided the historical romance fiction trap of names like Ambrosia and Valencia, but Bertha, Gladys and Agnes are about as authentic as you can get. Bertha is a particularly awful name. It sounds like an elephant, not the shark we see swimming through each episode.

Raykes is a big ho himself. He really thought he could bed the young girl by arranging to have a hotel room for her and her aunt’s secretary?

[quote]Unless she has an emotional outburst, Coon is pretty monotone. The writing doesn't help but there have been moments where she could have been the plucky underdog or someone we'd love to hate and she hasn't delivered.

Thanks for bringing this up. Her robotic line readings are really off-putting.

[quote]One showed her tits and we still can’t remember her name. The help on this show should be seen, not heard.

LOL. I can't tell what Russell's take is on her. When Bertharaptor went upstairs to check skirts, he was smiling. Now I find he kind of cluelessly smiles his way through a lot so maybe there was nothing to it but I would have expected a glare.

[quote]Marian’s a ho letting that man accompany her to her door. She cannot pretend she didn’t know it was inappropriate.

Did I misread that scene because I thought the dialogue was dancing around a lot more than just a little tonsil polka? I thought Raikes was going for the whole lower east side.

[quote]He shares the outcome of said meeting with his lover in the restaurant. She agreed to be his spy in the Russell mansion.

Confirming the apt observance upthread this might be nine episodes of exposition. If Turner thinks she's going to get some George Russelling out of Oscar, she's in for another foiled again. If Fellowes was a good writer - and maybe he hit his head and woke up as one - Turner would be a classic schemer but it blows up every time... could be semi-comic. And use her her rage over not being served veal Oscar to blackmail him or out him.

[quote]Screen time is a proxy for how important a character is. However, with so many characters, no one gets sufficient screen time to differentiate which stories are important or not.

Classic Fellowes. It took so long to get this thing on the air it turned into two, maybe three shows at once.

I laughed out loud when the deposed Gladys suitor described her as "beautiful." Dude, give it a rest. That homely ship has sailed.

There's no way that a girl like Marion would be escorted to her hotel room door without a chaperone.

Does anyone else think that Peggy's secret is that she had a child out of wedlock?

I wondered about that, thus the reason for his domineering dad would require her to stay close to home form then on

I think Peggy's dad raped her; maybe a child was born and that's why she was in Pennsylvania

Some one-off thoughts on the episode, related to some of the above.

A passionate, open-mouthed kiss from Little Miss Doylestown right out of the gate is too much to be believed. That's the behavior of someone with a lot more experience than the character should have.

Nathan Lane's eyebrows. Can't he Botox them? I'm annoyed by seeing them behave the same with every character. Ward McAllister, Roy Cohen, the guy in Only Murders in the Building, etc., etc. I know it's just his face, but shouldn't an actor be able to show more versatility?

Mr. Russell, having decided to let Whore Maid stay, which is unbelievable in itself, should now act as though she doesn't exist. He absolutely should not exchange looks with her.

I agree that there are just too many characters. It's good for the writers, though: there's no time for character development. Just keep that pov moving, checking in with each horse in your stable once or twice per episode. The thing practically writes itself! 😀

R353, that was my thinking too, yes.

I was thinking Peggy had been raped by her father as well but the child out of wedlock by the kid that worked for her dad might also be true.

the lady's maid - mister russell shenanigans is my least favorite bit of drama.

The Kelli O'Hara spat with her old friend was delightfully sharp and pointed

I don't think it's that kind of show, is it? I'm trying to recall Downton, where Fellowes only went for rape with Anna once the show was too far gone and he was grabbing anything. All these excessive ideas - stock fraud, incestuous rape - is that this show?

Bertha/Coon was a bit more fun to watch in this episode. Hopefully she will continue to loosen up.

[quote]I was thinking Peggy had been raped by her father as well but the child out of wedlock by the kid that worked for her dad might also be true.

I think she had a child, but I don't think her father raped her for two reasons. First, the story wouldn't make sense, nor her attitude toward him when he came to visit her at Agnes' house. Her father raping her alters her story away from the "social" of being black and middle class at that time. It doesn't provide a good counterpoint or parallel story to Marian's story. Both are stories about finding a place in society.

Second, turning the story of a strong, young black woman into just another rape victim story is more of the same and is certainly not woke enough. To paraphrase Dena Jones, they don't want to just make the black woman just another maid or hooker. It would paint her and her father in a very unwoke light.

Kelli O’Hara is quite good. I didn’t recognize Claybourne with his clothes on.

I’m a Kelli O’Hara fan from waaaaay back but she did not click for me until the most recent episode. Her scenes with the grieving Mrs. Morris were fun.

R358 really? That’s what you thought?

Claybourne camps it up like a good queen this time

This episode benefitted from much less of Ada simpering and from things going better for Bertha. Like many psychopaths, she is capable of being charming when she is happy.

There is so much to like about this programme. The costumes and sets are exquisite. The acting is generally good. And the storylines are fairly promising.

However, as others have said, there are just too many characters competing for screen time, and it means the scenes are incredibly short, and the storylines are wrapped up in a minute or two. After all the build-up to Bertha’s meeting with Nathan Lane, the scene was very brief.

The effect of having all these characters and so many storylines is that there is very little emotional investment. The characters are all reduced to being chess pieces being moved into their next configuration, and their problems and motivations are either unexplained or just unengaging, because we haven’t got to know the characters enough. The housekeeper lady has scowled in the background for weeks, then is brought forward so we can learn her tragic secret, but who really cares? It wasn’t emotionally involving at all. The same is true of Gladys and her gentleman caller. It’s obviously meant to be a big moment, but it’s dealt with in a minute or two.

Finally, Bertha really needs a worthy antagonist. I have hopes that Mrs Morris will find some way of exacting vengeance, but surely Ms Baranski is the likeliest candidate. She is strong, and brings her scenes alive Unfortunately, her part is too small. If it wasn’t possible for her to film more scenes, then the producers should have sought another actress for the role.

Your assessment of the series' problems is absolutely spot-on, r367. I can't believe others here aren't as critical of the writing and have their heads turned by a pretty bustle and a Corinthian column.

Shocking that the series has been in development for 10 years! And that Fellowes apparently learned nothing from his blunders at Downton Abbey.

[quote] I didn’t recognize Claybourne with his clothes on.

There was a whole lot of Nancy Boy going on in the smoking of that cigarette... just shy of a gold filter and a turban.

Kelli O’Hara, who often gets dragged in the Theatre Gossip threads for being too bland and junior league ladylike, really clicks on screen. I’m loving watching her performance, but Aurora Fane is really doing the work that one of the aunts should be doing in terms of the plot - Baranski is using everything she’s got to hide the fact that Agnes is essentially Statler and Waldorf from the Muppet Show and Nixon has basically been reduced to on-camera animal wrangler for that spaniel.

Denee Benton is wiping the floor with Louisa Jacobson and Taissa Farmiga, who seem to more insipid and dowdier by the episode.

Is it weird that I’d vote for Carrie Coon’s Bertha if she was running for president? Vladimir Putin seems like a more worthy adversary for her than of the other women on this show.

[quote]it means the scenes are incredibly short

Does anyone share my feeling this is the trend almost everywhere? I mean, certainly Fellowes, with his crammed casts but generally are things getting shorter? I think so and, yeah, there's not a ton to enjoy.

That is why Baranski and Kelli O'Hara are really standing out for me. With their scraps of script they're really doing something, somehow. You figure if they don't have a backstory they've made up their own. Baranski is not just one liner machine. There's a rigidity with principles and kindness. Kelli O'Hara plays her part amused, aware but pragmatic. I credit the actresses, not the structure or strength of the script. That said I laughed a lot during last night, for the first time. It's entertaining.

Let's Goldilocks Bertha's meet the McAllister dress: too much, too little, or just right?

[quote]Did I misread that scene because I thought the dialogue was dancing around a lot more than just a little tonsil polka? I thought Raikes was going for the whole lower east side.

He definitely wanted to fuck. And I was surprised by her very mild reaction to that.

He is now revealed to not be a man of honor. He is an opportunist.

What I'm wondering is if he will use that opportunism to take Nathan Lane up on his flirtations, suggested by complimenting Raikes looks and then holding his hand with both hands a little too long?

[quote]I feel like this entire first season might wind up just being nine episodes of exposition.

Is it that surprising considering how ignorant most American's are about their history? School history books don't give more than a paragraph to most things that aren't about presidents or wars.

^ Irony's.

Yup.....Nathan Lane talked like Foghorn Leghorn and looked like Little Lulu.

Nathan Lane has all the versatility of a radish.

[quote]I think Peggy's dad raped her; maybe a child was born and that's why she was in Pennsylvania.

I was thinking this as well but her mother is urging her to come home. Or is she supposed to be one of those wives who look the other way to keep her marriage?

I think Raikes is desperate to seal the deal with Marian before she finds out something either about him or her finances. Any man would know how long proper courtship takes. Him rushing things means something's afoot. Agnes not approving of him makes it look like he's trying to ruin Marian's reputation, so she has no other option than to pick him rather sooner than later before word gets out.

Yeah, I don't see the whole father-rape thing. They don't get along for REASON, but I don't think there's actual hatred the way there would be for rape. I think she had a baby out of wedlock and he forced her to give it up. Maybe an abortion, but even that seems too far.

Peggy got pregnant, and her daddy sent her away from NY to hide the scandal from the neighbors and arranged for the baby to be taken away when it was born. Peggy was supposed to return afterwards, but the chance encounter with Marian gave Peggy an alternative option.

That would have worked on The Alienist. This show is a slightly brasher Downton Abbey.

There is no way Peggy got raped by her dad. The show already has a #metoo storyline with the kitchen maid from the Van Rhijn household. Baby out of wedlock has not yet been covered by the show.

I don't mind the abundance of characters and story lines.

It's just adding colors to a canvas to eventually take shape and HOPEFULLY be something splendid.

Exactly, r383! Julian Fellowes would not have the nerve (or the brains) to make the Scott family anything but respectable and Peggy's displeasure with her dad will undoubtedly be a non-starter after all the hint-hints.

One thing you have to give them credit for, they're investing in this thing. Even the Fanes have a substantial set for their home.

Bertha is essentially going sell Gladys into a horrible marriage at some point... I wonder which way it goes: suffering or escape?

Maybe Gladys has her hair down and it doesn't flatter her, but she can't wear her hair up until she's "out." The style was for women not to put up their hair until they had made their debuts, and Bertha keeps postponing her debut until she can get enough people of the right kind to fill her ballroom.

I think Raikes is on the up and up. Fellowes has rarely showed subtlety, and if Raikes was a, well, rake, you would see it from a mile away.

[quote] the kitchen maid from the Van Rhijn household.

In a tribute to the cast is too big, I had no idea about that and then I recalled the :30 seconds devoted to it. And wasn't she a victim of sexual abuse too? He won't do it twice.

[quote]On April 30, 2020, Coon joined the cast of the HBO drama series The Gilded Age as Bertha Russell, replacing Amanda Peet.

According to her wiki CC was not the first choice for Bertha.

I feel like we DO see Tom Raikes as an opportunist from a mile away.

How does Gladys think she's going to marry Marion off if she doesn't leave her any money?

Sorry, I meant Agnes, not Gladys

I think sometimes family was a substitute for wealthy, though Marian might not make a top tier match or have to marry a Russell and not an Astor. Which paradoxically would probably kill Agnes.

I think it's clear that Marian is dying to shatter the boundaries of convention and she's too ignorant to understand what the consequences would be.

Or maybe she does understand and she's titillated by the thought of being a scandalous woman like Mrs. Chamberlain. She does seem very drawn to that woman.

They purposely made Taissa Farmiga homely, poor woman. Here she is with a "no makeup look" and hair pulled back for The Nun:

Ada needs to fall off a carriage and get run over twice. She’s a useless and annoying character. The spaniel can stay.

R396, I was thinking: why would the great Nixon take [italic]that[/italic] part?

R395, she looks cute there... childlike but a cute, pudgy face. The hair is vaguely authentic but it's awful. Here's a photo I remember: the real DL fav Laura Ingalls Wilder... roughly the same awful look. You wonder why Bertharaptor lets Gladys look so awful and wear such terrible clothes, when she's got such ambitions for the girl and when Big B is a clothes horse.

As unmarried Marian was walking to her bedroom with a handsome man without a chaperone, my hubby and I were rebuking her.

"HARLOT! Concubine of Satan!" we screamed at our TV screen.

She may not have put his anything in her anywhere, but she sinned in her heart, so Jesus--and us--are through with the little tramp.

r398, I suppose she'll get a glow up when she gets married off.

It was interesting hearing Carrie Coon talk about her character's selfless devotion and love for her daughter making a good marriage in that TGA extra, as that emotion never surfaces in her performance or the writing of the character. This is another example of the show's failure to engage on an any complex level.

I'm still betting Oscar and Gladys elope in the season finale.

[quote]Baby out of wedlock has not yet been covered by the show. Baby out of wedlock has not yet been covered by the show.

Not so. That is why Jeanne Tripplehorn's character is shunned.

Everything but the bloodhounds sniffin' at her heels.....

I'm sure I'll be proved wrong, but I don't think that a baby out of wedlock is the answer to what Peggy's mystery is. I don't get the feeling that she's considered disgraced, but only that she and her father have had a deep disagreement on some point. Maybe he got rid of the pharmacy boy the way Mr. Russell got rid of Archie?

Me thinks Peggy's father forced Peggy to have an abortion. But her dealings with the Pennsylvania lawyer hint that she has a family setup in that state.

Please, please can we kill off Marian and expand Gossip Girl's Dorota's part?

Zuzanna Szadkowski is much easier on the eyes and ears than the fourth iteration of Streep.

What could be the reason why Peggy needs a lawyer in the first place? Things like emancipation weren't a thing back then, right? A lawyer could look into sealed adoption cases if that was a thing back then. Or the dad did something really shady and framed Peggy's lover for a crime he didn't commit and Peggy is looking for someone to represent her boyfriend to get him out of jail (but the news of him getting out would get back to her father anyway or someone trying to get him out legally and Peggy wants to keep hit all hush hush right now).

I feel the same way as R405, Peggy is written as a strong woman who keeps her own counsel but nothing about what we’ve seen from her so far seems to indicate that she’s motivated by the grief of been separated from a baby. You’d think the never-to-be-accused-of-subtlety Fellowes would have had her swallowing tears while looking at baby carriages in Central Park by now if that were her secret.

My initial impression that Peggy was sexually abused by her father.

I'm not picking up vibes at all that Peggy was sexually assaulted by her father, and since they've already worked parental molestation in as a subplot for Bridget (the Van Rhijn maid), I sincerely doubt they will duplicate it with Peggy and her father.

The guess that Peggy was in Pennsylvania to have an illegitimate baby is much more likely.

R411 yes and remember she needed to consult with Raikes for a personal legal matter in PA.

I think Peggy’s too smart to get knocked up.

A guess: Peggy had an illegitimate child when she was a teenager and her father refused to let her keep it but instead of putting it up for adoption he is paying for it to be raised at the school for Black children who do good Christmas concerts that Agnes and Ada are patrons of. Peggy is trying to become financial independent through her writing in order to get custody.

Or, if there is a child, it is placed with a relative there and she's gonna do an Edith and have a "ward" once she's got her finances built up. The father did something to "protect" his child... Audra said so last night, I think. It stepped on the toes of her independence. This is Fellowes. Even his dark stories are fairly superficial. There's no way he's going near incest baby. In any event, Peggy seems too together to have anything to do with him if he did.

Did anybody wonder if McAllister was making it a little too easy for Bertha last night?

Why would he be dishonest, though, r416? I don't think he was famous in real life for duplicity: only for sucking-up.

I agree, R417... still it just seemed so easy. If he's flirting with Raikes he could possibly be screwing Bertha too, after a fashion. Teach her her place, in due course. On the flip side that line "you may be protecting me" may well have been sucking up to a new power structure he sees coming.

The conversation between McAllister and Bertha was a total let-down. No wit, no bitchiness, no gossip, no nothing....

Julian should have let Nathan ad lib.

No one in the history of the universe should ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, allow Nathan Lane to ad lib.

R346 You need to change your perceptions. You're 140 years too late to appreciate this milieu.

And you're as pleasant as someone else's fart, R421. And your grandeur is bloated too.

^ Every time I block that pump organ at R421 it's always the same old vicious queen.

Ladies, if you're going to insult one another, please do it in the style that would be seemly for the period. Continue the cunting....

Girls, [italic]girls, GIRLS!![/italic]

Can't you see you're allowing a Lord Julian Fellowes nighttime soap opera to tear you apart??

When George presented his deal to poor little Archie Baldwin, I half expected him to throw him over the (improperly set) table and ravage the boy to hammer his point home.

How the fuck is this Raikes character hobnobbing with the highest echelon of NY society when he's nothing but a no name lawyer from podunk PA? This is never explained.

Maybe he's escorting.

It will be explained— either next week or in this podcast.

[quote]How the fuck is this Raikes character hobnobbing with the highest echelon of NY society when he's nothing but a no name lawyer from podunk PA?

He pocketed Marian's railroad shares - suggesting that they're worth a lot.

There's a lot more going on than a country hick lawyer suddenly climing the social ladder.

Marian doesn’t hold her own railroad shares?

[quote]Marian doesn’t hold her own railroad shares?

Raike was her father's lawyer.

When she went to him after her father's death, Raike claimed that all he left was a few dollars and some "worthless" railroad shares. However, given how railroad shares figure so prominently in the fortunes and downfall of so many people, so folks question how "worthless" those share may actually be. Remember, back then if you owned "shares" you actually owned pieces of actual paper shares.

Personally, I believe that she'll turn out to own a HUGE holding in Russell's railroad because having her source of independent wealth actually be the same as the Russell's will cause a huge dilemma for her relationship wtih Agnes, given her dislike for new money.

[quote] Marian doesn’t hold her own railroad shares?

Are woman allowed to own property?

R433, yes. But, during the time of the series, married women had only recently gained the right to keep control of their own property.

I guess the question now is who has physical possession of the railroad shares. Probably Raikes.

r429, could you tell us what they say in the podcast that's relevant to this question? I don't want to listen to an entire hour-long podcast to find out.

[quote] I don't want to listen

I haven't time to listen. I have to go and prepare dinner (Meatloaf with broccoli and tomato, Pear tart with yogurt).

TOM RAIKES SPOILER:

*

*

*

I did go through the podcast fast-forwarding it to the discussion the hosts have with Louisa Jacobson and the Australian actor who plays Tom Raikes. He admits Tom is an adventurer and that his last name is a clue to that. No word, though, about the railroad shares.

The only other interesting thing about the discussion with them is that Louisa Jacobson refers to her own character several times as "pretty." She comes across as being as much an idiot in real life as she does on the show.

[quote] with the highest echelon of NY society when he's nothing but a no name lawyer from podunk PA?

Caroline Astor herself explains in the first episode, " a good looking young man who can talk is all you have to be"

Louisa Jacobson looks more and more like Cindy Brady with every passing episode. They should cast Susan Olsen as her mother withering away in a mental institution.

At least she doesn't look like an anteater like Gladys.

[quote]He admits Tom is an adventurer and that his last name is a clue to that.

I wonder whether Tom was just trying to get laid of if he has some sort of plan. He's obviously doing well for himself in society, so doesn't need her connections.

It could be that her father actually had a much larger estate that he cannot touch, so is planning on marrying her and "figuring" something out later to get his hands on her money. It would be an interesting turn if she were to become much more wealthy than Agnes.

R442 One can always do better, especially to establish oneself permanently in society.

[quote] I wonder whether Tom was just trying to get laid of if he has some sort of plan.

If he just wanted to get laid he would either pick up a poorer girl or visit a prostitute. He would not try for a society girl who is also undoubtedly a virgin. He has some plan up his sleeve.

How would sleeping with Marian help him though? wouldn't he be shunned for that?

She's more Society-adjacent. She's never "come out".

He wants to marry her because she was either left more money by her father than he has said or the stocks her father left her were worth a fortune, and she does not know it.

He was hoping to impregnate her so she would have to marry him.

[quote] She's more Society-adjacent. She's never "come out".

Marian is treated as if she were "out" in NY society--she can participate in the projects adult women do (like the charity bazaar) and she can wear her hair up.

Either she had a debut in Doylestown, or she is of an age where she has to be considered "out." (although she is still young enough she must be chaperoned when she goes out, which I assume Ada would not have to be even though she in unmarried).

Who do we thin has the biggest dick among the non-servant men (please don't say Bertha!) :)

I think it's Raikes.

The music is straight out of a Mexican soap opera. When the telegram arrived I was surprised the orchestra wasn't sitting next to the fireplace.

And they need to get rid of Louisa Jacobson. NOW.

We should all hope to have Bertha Russell's swagger.

The music is designed for viewers raised on Walt Disney movies. The music tells them how to react.

Raikes is obviously no good....he's trying to compromise her so she HAS to marry him or ruin her reputation.

That kissing scene was ridiculous. They were eating face in a public hallway, not something she'd be stupid enough to do in that era. It really would have caused a scandal.

There's no way Peggy was molested by her dad...they're not about to feature a "black dad molested his daughter" in a show that only has ONE black family in it. Not in this day and age.

It does seem probable that Peggy's big secret is a baby she had out of wedlock but this show is so sloppily written, it might be something really minor and dull.

I don't understand why you'd carp over Nixon or Lane's ham acting....it's EXACTLY what this kind of show needs! It has so much monotone deadwood in it (the Russells and most of the men in the show) that I welcome good, old fashioned BIG characters to keep the show interesting.

Maggie Smith's ham acting is the ONLY thing that made Downton Abbey even slightly watchable. OH, and Siobhan Finneran's conniving maid O'Brien. She was great, too.

I think Peggy got it on with a white man and they had a child which she gave up to an orphanage and was possibly adopted or to his family. She’s probably trying to find the family in whichever scenario.

[quote]Who do we thin has the biggest dick among the non-servant men (please don't say Bertha!)

Mr. Russell. Very girthy, and he uses it mercilessly.

I found this to be the least entertaining episode yet.

R451: That trick is as old has the hills and predates Disney. It's perfect for melodrama/soap opera. A good example is "A Summer Place": whenever non-acting Sandra Dee and/or Troy Donahue have a speech, there's a crescendo. Soaps used this all the time.

Fellowes seems too prissy to include incest. He also tends to disappoint with backstory/origin story stuff. A "bastard" child wouldn't surprise me but it also could have been something milder like staying with relatives because the bf was a stalker or she simply needed to run away.

or a fashion faux pas

I was surprised that Fellowes included Aunt Ada suggesting that Marian and her cousin Oscar might become a couple, though first cousins marrying to keep the family fortune intact was rather common at that time.

oscar will have none of that

.....and also, Ada isn't all there, you know.

Agnes would want to avoid scandal. Ada is an idiot--a kind of dumber version of Edith from Downton.

More like a dumber version of Edith from All in the Family.

It would be funny if Ada had a bastard off some place and named awkwardly after a flower, like Petunia or Rhododendron.

[quote]oscar will have none of that

He wants a wedding, just not a honeymoon.

Bertha needs to Joan Collins this show up. She should have slinked over to Mrs. Morris and asked if wanted to take in some mending to make some cash.

I'm going to ask a stupid question, was it possible for Marian's father to have created a trust for Marian that she would inherit after his death? He was horrible with his own funds but might he have created a financial vehicle for her to have once he was gone?

I'm just not clear on what women were allowed to have during that time period.

Lackluster episode except for the cuntiness of Mrs. Morris. I hope she sticks around somehow.

It is an interesting question r468, and I hope they explain it at some point. I know the show isn't some history lesson, but I don't think they can really avoid getting into the nitty gritty on this question. I believe single women could inherit money and control it. There was some question about how much control husbands had over wives' money, but I'm sure there are a lot of complications there, and I suspect they will have to explore all that at some point.

The divide amazes me. I thought it was the best episode so far... seemed to crackle along and seemed comparatively focused, to me. I thought it was awful from the start and stumbling along, getting better, getting worse, getting better, then worse.

Prior to this time period, "In every state, the legal status of free women depended upon marital status. Unmarried women, including widows, were called “femes soles,” or “women alone.” They had the legal right to live where they pleased and to support themselves in any occupation that did not require a license or a college degree restricted to males. Single women could enter into contracts, buy and sell real estate, or accumulate personal property, which was called personalty. It consisted of everything that could be moved—cash, stocks and bonds, livestock, and, in the South, slaves. So long as they remained unmarried, women could sue and be sued, write wills, serve as guardians, and act as executors of estates. These rights were a continuation of the colonial legal tradition. But the revolutionary emphasis on equality brought some important changes in women’s inheritance rights. State lawmakers everywhere abolished primogeniture and the tradition of double shares of a parent’s estate, inheritance customs that favored the eldest son. Instead, equal inheritance for all children became the rule—a big gain for daughters.

Marriage changed women’s legal status dramatically. When women married, as the vast majority did, they still had legal rights but no longer had autonomy. Instead, they found themselves in positions of almost total dependency on their husbands which the law called coverture"

So it's unlikely that as time went on Marian's status would have worsened instead of improved in terms of her finances, whatever they might be.

That makes a good case for Raikes to rush her into marriage, if Marian learns about her own financial autonomy she won't be as likely to marry. He just needs to do it quickly before anyone gets the idea to dig into her father's estate.

[quote] Fellowes seems too prissy to include incest.

It's already in the show, hon.

[quote]I'm going to ask a stupid question, was it possible for Marian's father to have created a trust for Marian that she would inherit after his death? He was horrible with his own funds but might he have created a financial vehicle for her to have once he was gone?

A trust would actually explain a lot if Raikes was also the attorney he used to set it up.

It would explain why he can't actually get to it while telling her she's broke. If he marries her, he may be able to access the money as her husband.

Agree r473. I think that's the little race we're going to see. Some much needed drama in this show, will she fall for him or escape in time?

I'm not all that familiar with trusts (and not sure the term even meant the same in the 19th century), but it sounds too responsible for Marian's wastrel father. I suspect he just bought a bunch of stocks like the gambler he was and died before he could cash in.

[quote]Agree [R473]. I think that's the little race we're going to see. Some much needed drama in this show, will she fall for him or escape in time?

You know what would be utter melodrama - if she married him, he stole all her money, then dumped her. Then, he goes off into society in NY while she continues to live with Agnes, unable to reclaim her stolen money.

r475 according to the post at r472 (thank you btw). Marrying Raikes will require Marian to forfeit all her wealth to her husbands control.

I think Fellowes generally keeps his plots pretty simple. By the measure of some of these theories, Michael Gregson would have come back from the dead, O'Brien would have returned as the wife of nobility, or Robert and Cora would have had a kidnapped son who returns from long lost. It's not really his style. When he did colour widely outside the lines it was to get himself out of a jam, like the number of times unexpected fortunes saved the Crawleys from losing Downton.

One thing I am totally giving him credit for is meeting the race thing far more head on than I would have expected. Coloured isn't a word you can use any more but it was the word then and he doesn't flinch in deploying it. It feels honest and fits the period. I'm kind of amazed he could manage it.

But not entirely r479, at least in New York. That article ends goes up to 1830. A couple of things had happened after that, especially in New York:

"New York gave women the most extensive property rights, passing the Married Women's Property Act in 1848 and the Act Concerning the Rights and Liabilities of Husband and Wife in 1860. Both of these laws expanded the property rights of married women and became a model for other states throughout the century."

I know sex and relationships are the essence of soap operas, but money also fascinates people. I think they could actually get into some of this without boring viewers.

[quote]I'm not all that familiar with trusts (and not sure the term even meant the same in the 19th century), but it sounds too responsible for Marian's wastrel father. I suspect he just bought a bunch of stocks like the gambler he was and died before he could cash in.

I get why you say that but Marian didn't show up looking all dusty and dog eared. She's a lovely well mannered lady so her father somehow saw to it that she was well cared for. Ada talked about how fun and kind he was to her, so he did have a gentle and perhaps loving personality. It's possible knowing himself well enough, he put some money (or stocks) out of his own reach for his daughter so he wouldn't have to hate himself for being reckless.

If it were just the stocks would Raikes have possession of them? And if he had possession of them would he need Marian for them to be of value?

[quote] Bertha needs to Joan Collins this show up. She should have slinked over to Mrs. Morris and asked if wanted to take in some mending to make some cash.

They'll be having a catfight in a lily pond in Newport before the season ends.

r480 When I was born and for my early school years, I was colored. I didn't mind the word at all. I didn't care for the word Negro when we switched to that and at some point in high school I was Black.

I still like the word colored because being a child I loved crayons and coloring so the connotation in my little brain was I was colored, like crayons, which was kind of special.

Sorry to digress. . .

Thank you for your thoughts, R484. Interesting to know from someone who lives it.

Maybe a comparable in that I am content with gay... homosexual sounds like a disorder and queer an insult or a level of rebel for which I haven't got the energy, optimism, naïveté or patience.

Also sorry to digress.

Yeah, I say this as someone very much on the Left, but we do wildly exaggerate the importance of word changes in this area. People who are bigots of one kind or another do not stop being bigots because we all decide to make some name change to some group. Bigotry is clever enough to switch hatred from colored people to Negroes, to Black people, to African-Americans. And same with gays and queers. It doesn't matter.

Lately I'm seeing a huge effort to say "enslaved persons" never "slaves." It will have precisely the same effect: jack squat.

[QUOTE] I think Fellowes generally keeps his plots pretty simple. By the measure of some of these theories, Michael Gregson would have come back from the dead, O'Brien would have returned as the wife of nobility, or Robert and Cora would have had a kidnapped son who returns from long lost. It's not really his style.

Perhaps you’re forgetting the DA storyline where a relative who was supposed to have perished during the sinking of the Titanic manically reappeared alive and covered in face bandages. His “style” is whatever it needs to be to further plot lines.

*magically

I don't know about a pond fight r483, but a cameo by Joan Collins and Linda Evans as a couple of old bitches in Newport would be heaven.

R484 & R486 - Please feel free to fully digress as your posts are VERY interesting.

[quote]I get why you say that but Marian didn't show up looking all dusty and dog eared. She's a lovely well mannered lady so her father somehow saw to it that she was well cared for. Ada talked about how fun and kind he was to her, so he did have a gentle and perhaps loving personality.

But, do we have any more than Agnes and Ada's word on their brother? He obviously broke with them a long time ago. It's possible he was not the dreamer or wastrel that he once might have been. We also don't know much about Marian's mother or her family do we?

It's also possible, though a bit of a stretch, that the father setup a trust and included rail stocks, but didn't actually know what they were worth. It seems like the father shunned the society life and old money world that Agnes lived and that is the primary reason for their break. I can imagine Agnes thinking her brother worthless for simply not caring about family name or society.

I'm rather hoping for Jennifer Saunders and Joanna Lumley showing up as aunts accompanying Gladys' British aristocrat suitor who was picked by Bertha.

It could turn into a delightful modern farce where the suitor falls for Larry, Gladys' brother, instead. At least it would give Harry Richardson something to do on the show other than "Oh no, you didn't!".

Fair enough re Cousin Patrick. Perhaps an exception that paves the rule, given what a brief dud that storyline was. Yes, he's a lazy writer and reaches for the low hanging fruit, but a lot of the supposition here seems wildly outside Fellowes track record. Incest rape babies? A character well established as a spendthrift secretly stashing millions conveniently in Russell railroad stock, that he never mentioned to his daughter and now pilfered? The actor said the character was closer to a rake than a thief. But I will eat my words if it's so. Just feels extreme to for Fellowes, who appears to spend more time typing than thinking.

Is there a chance that Cora or Cora's family makes an appearance on this show?

Those are good points r482 and r492. And now I can't remember. Has anyone mentioned Marian's mother? Did her father run off with her?

I would love that kind of crossover, R495. Who could play a young Cora?

Based on scads of evidence, Meryl would have been better off raising turnips.

Will Meryl be producing some brand-new daughter out of her ass to play the role of Cora?

I don't think they would make Peggy having a child out of wedlock. Seeing that New York never had anti-miscenegation laws, I kinda suspect she had married a white (or of another race other than black) man and her father forced them to separate.

R432 - I agree with this assessment. Raikes is a devious opportunist who stole from Marian (and probably her father). Once this is discovered, and sorted, Marian will become "new money" much to the chagrin/annoyance of Agnes.

[quote] a cameo by Joan Collins and Linda Evans as a couple of old bitches in Newport would be heaven.

Yeah, that's going to happen.

[quote] Is there a chance that Cora or Cora's family makes an appearance on this show?

That actually well might happen. Julian Fellowes said that he wanted to bring her character onto this show.

Given that "Downton Abbey" starts in 1912, when the daughters are in their very early twenties and late teens, this would be about the right time for Cora's mother to be trying to find an aristocratic husband for her. Maybe Bertha and Martha Levinson will compete to set up their daughters with Rawwwbert, the Viscount Downton (later the Earl of Grantham).

From the Downton Abbey Fandom Wiki:

"Born Cora Levinson in Cincinnati in 1868. She was the only daughter of the dry goods multi-millionaire, Isidore Levinson and his wife Martha Levinson, and had an Aunt.

As a young woman, she was brought to London in 1888 for her first season by her socially ambitious mother, in order to marry a member of the British nobility. During the season, she met Robert Crawley, Viscount Downton, the future Earl of Grantham. Much to Robert's mother's chagrin, Cora became engaged to him and the two of them married on 16 February, 1890. As part of their marriage contract, Cora's fortune was entailed to the family estate to prevent it from going bankrupt."

The dates totally jive. Cora could make an NYC appearance with her "Aunt" (visiting the Russells????) as mentioned in my first paragraph taken from the Fandom Wiki.

This could really work!

That could work. A Gladys Cora throwdown would be hilarious, on the assumption it would be the mothers.

One of Fellowes' biggest inconsistencies was Martha. He cast her as the brains behind the operation relative to the English story, but when Shirl showed up she did nothing but snark, trash talk and disdain the whole system... didn't even seem to enjoy her acquired bragging rights.

Well, this series is set about five years before they meet, so we may have to wait a while, or they could just forget that timeline and fudge the dates.

Or maybe the guy Peggy fell in love with (the guy who worked at her father's store) was born a slave in the South (remember the setting is only 17 years after the Civil War ended and Peggy seems to be around 25) and her father was having none of it.

It seems like having a mixed race baby would be more scandalous than Mrs. Chamberlain "knowing" Mr. Chamberlain before they got married and had a child tout suite.

*toute suite*

[quote] One of Fellowes' biggest inconsistencies was Martha. He cast her as the brains behind the operation relative to the English story, but when Shirl showed up she did nothing but snark, trash talk and disdain the whole system... didn't even seem to enjoy her acquired bragging rights.

That actually would be true to the story of Alva Vanderbilt--when she was younger she was obsessed with social climbing, but after she married off Consuelo to the Duke of Marlborough, and had married her second multi-multi-millionaire (Oliver Belmont), there was nowhere left for her to go in terms of social climbing. So she became a huge advocate of women's suffrage and found a purpose in life helping others, and she can became much less of a monster. She actually helped Consuelo leave her miserable marriage to Sunny Marlborough, and then the two became very close friends in Alva's later years. Alva was fine with Consuelo marrying an aviator as her second husband who truly loved her.

p.s.--As the mother of the next Duke of Marlborough after Sunny, Consuelo remained very close to the rest of the Churchill family despite her remarriage. Winston Churchill (whose father was Sunny's brother Randolph, and whose mother was another American heiress, Jennie Jerome) said she was always his favorite of his aunts.

Consuelo was a good egg and by all accounts a very lovely woman. She was indeed the victim of her mother, even tho said mother tried to make amends later in life.

Some fun historical tidbits here

What happened to Alva's first marriage?

The Martha Levinson character was based on Mary Theresa Carver Leiter (mother of Mary Leiter), Marjorie Merriweather Post, Alva Vanderbilt and Marion Graves Anthon Fish all being thrown in a blender and whipped-up into a modern American woman more of the 1920s than the 1880s.

From Vanity Fair 2013 interview with Julian Fellowes: Martha represents how money and status will work going forward. She was wellborn but not spectacularly so—in her creator’s mind, “her father had a department store in Cincinnati, but just one, not 33”—and achieved great wealth by marrying her late husband, Mr. Levinson, a Jewish dry-goods millionaire of the Gilded Age who did own 33 dry-goods store. Martha Levinson was much spoiled and very indulged by her father and believed she could do anything she set out to achieve.

I like it

I love these threads.

More from Julian Fellowes:

Martha Levinson is exactly the type of self-made "new money" that Agnes van Rhijn and her peers seek to keep out of New York society. As such, Martha, Cora, and Harold Levinson may still appear in The Gilded Age. A key difference between Martha Levinson and Bertha Russell is that Bertha is obsessed with Old New York society accepting her and her family, while Martha isn't driven by quite the same need. Maratha would think, 'why marry a van Rhijn if one can marry a British Earl?".

I thought Bertha was waiting for a British aristocrat. She hasn’t exactly had her eye on anyone from the old New York set. She doesn’t seem to care what the son does which seems odd. Surely she would want both to marry well.

Yes, she really dotes on Larry but not a word about his prospects.

Bertha hasn't said yet directly what she wants for Gladys--we are assuming it is an aristocrat. but it by no means has be a Brit: as has been pointed out on a previous TGA thread, other New Money families like the Goulds and the Singers married their daughters off to French aristocrats. (Almost everyone in these circles spoke french fluently, especially the daughters, so the language barrier would be no problem as it would be today).

All we know is that it has to be somehow better than what the Russells can ever aspire to be just on their own, so i would assume even Oscar would not be good enough for what Bertha wants for Gladys.

Does Larry even have a job? Does he work at his father's corporation?

He doesn't seem to yet. Somebody talked about him going to work for his father. That won't go well, I'd guess, if he was already pissed off with his parents over driving away a boyfriend for Gladys.

"I thought Bertha was waiting for a British aristocrat. "

R518 - This is one of the many things that Sir Julian has not made quite clear. It will be interested to find out where Bertha is originally from. I am betting she is from "The South" as she seems to have too many hang-ups to be from The Midwest and/or Ohio River Valley.

Martha Levinson is a perfect example of "new money" raised in The Midwest and/or Ohio River Valley.

Bertha was urging Larry to go to Newport when she heard that Carrie Astor would be there earlier this season. So the assertion that she “doesn’t care about Larry” is not really supported by what we’ve seen on the screen.

In real life Carrie Astor married "brand spankin' new money"; R.T. Wilson money.

R.T. Wilson and the "marrying Wilsons".

In the early 1880s, Carrie met and fell in love with Marshall Orme Wilson (1860–1926), although her family disapproved of him and his family. He was the eldest son of Richard Thornton Wilson, a banker from Tennessee who had served the Commissary-General of the Confederacy and became rich investing in railways (leading to claims of war profiteering).Wilson and his siblings were known in New York and Newport society as the "Marrying Wilsons" due to their marriages into the wealthiest and most prominent families. His sister Grace married Cornelius Vanderbilt III, and his brother, Richard Jr. was married to Marion Steedman Mason. Another sister, Belle, was married to Sir Michael Henry Herbert (the British Ambassador to the U.S. during Theodore Roosevelt's administration and brother to the Earl of Pembroke), and Mary, who married New York real estate heir Ogden Goelet (parents of Mary Goelet, who married the Duke of Roxburghe).

There’s a difference between urging and forcing someone.

R523: She has no accent and he's characterized as a "potato digger" which would suggest Irish. Most likely from some non-descript place built on rail like Columbus, Ohio.

OK, she cared once about Larry - more, I think, to get him connected to the Astors than married to one.

People above were complaining about Gladys's hair, but that was pretty much considered the right kind of hairstyle for a woman her age in society.

Here is Whistler's "Symphony in White" for comparison

Okay, but you posted that she had “said not a word” about him which wasn’t true.

[QUOTE] She has no accent and he's characterized as a "potato digger" which would suggest Irish

The “potato digger” was Bertha’s father, not George Russell.

Aren't the Russells from Ohio? That was what I thought was the implication in the first episode when George was obsessed with the Ohio rail lines.

OK, your honour, but I hadn't sworn the oath yet.

Jesus Christ.

R531: That's what I meant.

And if we're picking and parsing, R530, I said: Yes, she really dotes on Larry but not a word about his prospects.

But since we have to fight to the last word where you're concerned, she said nothing about his prospects in terms of marriage. She clearly wanted him there to make the connection for her own social ambitions.

Can we proceed or are there any remaining nits in that sentence you'd like to pick.

Everyone's hitting it out of the park with theories and Gilded Age historical information. Thank you!

My tiny brain would like to offer that the words that posters upthread were looking for are "jibe" (agree) and "tout de suite." If you want to worry less and Americanize the latter, I like "toot sweet," which, though "incorrect," is nonetheless a humorous idiom accepted on the premise that we all understand it's being used as a joke.

[QUOTE] Can we proceed or are there any remaining nits in that sentence you'd like to pick.

Sorry, but was this supposed to be a question?

I knew you'd get that.

Now fuck off.

And did you want to apologize for mischaracterizing my post?

[QUOTE] And did you want to apologize for mischaracterizing my post?

Honey, no. I didn’t “mischaracterize” you. You wrote imprecisely about the subject and you got called out for it.

Moving on…

Nice try. There was no mistake. Blocked, you liar.

"She has no accent and he's characterized as a "potato digger"

R527 - I see your point but this is television and Sir Julian so the Russells could end up being from anywhere. Also, I have read, Alva got rid of her Southern accent while attending a private boarding school in Neuilly-sur-Seine, France

In regard to the sloppy writing pertaining to Marian's family background and parents, I am reminded of the immortal words of Oscar Wilde:

To lose one parent, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.

I liked this episode

Unlike Euphoria, this show would be better released all at once because not enough happens in a single episode to make it worthwhile.

I did like that this episode we learned why Armstrong (Agnes's lady's maid) is such a cunt, given that her mother is the Livia Soprano of the Five Corners.

I hope we do get something like this soon for Bertha--so far all we know is she's a relentless climber and a monster to her daughter, so she comes across as pretty two-dimensional. I think this is more the fault of the writing so far than Carrie Coon, but at the same time I've been impressed that Morgan Spector brings some genuine shadings to George Russell.

But who the fuck cares about Armstrong (who is Agnes' housekeeper, not ladies maid!) and why she's grumpy all the time?

And is Armstrong even her name?

No, r547: her real name is Thunderpussy. That's why they call her "Armstrong" on the show--to put us off the scent.

[quote]But who the fuck cares about Armstrong (who is Agnes' housekeeper, not ladies maid!)

From the HBO website about the show's list of the cast and characters:

[quote] Debra Monk as Armstrong - [bold]As Mrs. van Rhijn’s maid,[/bold] Armstrong enjoys an elevated position amongst the staff of the Brook House. Armstrong’s deep social biases, coupled with her need to be on the inside of every secret, promises to get her into trouble. Unfortunately, her private life is already fraught with trouble.

Well, that shut up r547.

Calm down hysterical queen at R547. Why don’t you just watch the shows like the rest of us, and you’ll find out about Armstrong. God, you’re an impatient Mary. And I care about Armstrong’s character. She’s dark, and there’s more in her backstory to come out.

R546: Unless she has to scream, Coon's line readings are terrible. But, you're right it would be interesting to know more about her backstory. Her mother was probably a grasping social climber like her.

R529, perfect example. Most queens here wouldn’t be able to ascertain historical accuracy any better than a slug.

Accuracy doesn't change the fact it looks like the dog shed it.

[quote][R529], perfect example. Most queens here wouldn’t be able to ascertain historical accuracy any better than a slug.

Reminds me of a conversation where a girl was arguing that racism wasn't so bad because many of the founding fathers were POC. When people started mocking her, she insisted that they were.

Her source: Hamilton.

I kid you not. She seriously cited Hamilton. You cannot make this crap up.

then go watch the kardashians

A bit extreme, R556.

nope, posters criticizing the writing or direction, fine, but "who does that bitch's hair" belongs on a reality TV show thread

It's all fair game, sorry. You don't get to make the rules. And given your judgment and disposition, that's a good thing.

The last episode stank. I hope it picks up again going forward. I’ll watch it anyway, either direction could be interesting.

The show is extremely watchable but it’s not very good. Carrie Coon is good but not campy enough whereas Christine Baranski is campy but not good. Meryl Streep JR is as wooden as the ring out of Little Night Music and Celia Keenan Bolger should never be allowed near a television casting decision ever again. Cynthia’s wig is worse here than AJLT somehow and Morgan is extremely Handsome but extremely one note.

I feel like so far the season has mostly been set-up and exposition rather than actual drama. We've not seen any of the characters really have any doubts about anything they do or go through any genuine problems, other than the Morrises (and that was disposed of after one episode). So far, everything else has been about the unstoppable rise of the Russells, and then just getting to know Mrs. Chamberlain, Peggy's parents, Ward McAllister, the servants...

[quote]Why don’t you just watch the shows like the rest of us, and you’ll find out about Armstrong. God, you’re an impatient Mary. And I care about Armstrong’s character. She’s dark, and there’s more in her backstory to come out.

Personally I feel Armstrong's back story is very important. I think we need to be reminded that crushing poverty exists for white people the way it does for a majority in the Black community. Racism is used to pit the poor against each other and the story of the American dream is used to hypnotize poor whites into the belief that their wealth is just around the corner.

“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” -- Lyndon Johnson

Armstrong's attitude toward Peggy is racism fueled by the the crushing poverty she lives in. She can't stand seeing a well educated Black person living better than she does. We still deal with this today, not that it will transform anything but I'm happy the show is willing to reflect some ugly truths in our history that are still weighing us down.

I like the story too

For a moment there I thought it was Meryl herself playing Armstrong's mother

Her mother reminded me of Livia Soprano. I was waiting for her to say “Poor you”

Perhaps Cynthia Nixon will discover Whitecaps and scream at Baranski about a found finger nail

I'm all for Armstrong having a back story but can we please get the front story first so we can empathize with her?

Btw, that actress who played her mother is lovely Brenda Wehle who is at least 10 years younger than Debra Monk. Good job with the wig and makeup!

Great post, R563. Armstrong would probably have become a Karen in 2022.

I’ve been to the Tenement Museum in NYC and that dusty, dirty flat felt very authentic to me. I could almost smell it through the screen.

Remember DL. it's New Money (Vanderbilt) vs Old Money (Astor) and the old establishment Families. We know how it ends!! I am enjoying the series (and the DL interpretation of the series) My family is not involved yet; we haven't been thrown out of Northern Ireland(still stealing from the English-wealthy Irish families(and drinking-cannot forgot the drinking!!)

You sound like you're drinking right now!

Not yet (R570), I may open a bottle of Champagne at dinner tonight. The Russian Invasion was great for business today, the morons dumped some great stocks on the market. The Vampires like me swoop in and "pick up great stock real cheap" I feel like Mr Russell in the Gilded Age, I made another fortune. maybe 2 bottles.

r571, can you enlighten us on some of your picks?

[quote] I like the story too

I don't like the story, R564.

I dumped stocks and now I’m poor

To R574 well if you dumped any tech stock or good S&P 500 stocks, then I bought them. I was amazed at the good oil& gas stocks that were on the market at opening bell. Gold was up, the Russians love gold, along with the Indians& Chinese. The S&P went back up, but it was a good bear market. Don't be poor!! Dinner is East Falls meatloaf, cheddar mashed potatoes, and homemade Cherry Pie, and Tattingers!! PS, I love my meatloaf

Thanks for sharing Phillywhore!

Does anyone think Christine called her “good friend” Meryl and told her her daughter was ruining the series with her shitty acting?

She seems the type to do such a thing

PhillyWhore called her up and told her to buy high and sell low

Don't you wonder Meryl might be the Oprah of acting, so you don't tell her anything?

No, no one thinks that r577.

[quote]PhillyWhore called her up and told her to buy high and sell low

Or just to brag about how much money he's made from human misery this week.

You spend enough time on DL you tend to forget there's such a thing as good taste or bad manners.

This thread is running out of space, so I've created a new one.

I've been rich and I've been poor.... Believe me, rich is better!! Poverty sucks, DL. There is $$$$$ to be made off Human misery, the Gilded Age proves that again!! If one doesn't learn from History, one is doomed to repeat it!!

R584, why not just drown all the others at birth? Then you get all the goodies, right?

Can somebody just finish thread?

Why is me so stupid?

Let me help out here.

I am Bertha's blue bustle.

Elocution time: say Bertha's bluest bustle ten time quickly and then twirl!

I am Gladys' unstyled locks.

Larry's hairy hole!

Oscar's milky white....abs!

I'm Bertha's valium

Say what you will, there was something to be said for the era, even with all its faults.

Back then, you had social climbers like Bertha or the real Alva Vanderbilt. Today, we have The Real Housewives all pretending to be from a high social class - and the majority of people believe it.

[...]

[quote]Did the privileged elite typically, or even occasionally, have bodies like Oscar's and John's back then? How did they even work out?

Had the period when being overweight signified eating well, therefore wealth, health, and vitality?

Too bad Rubens isn't still alive today. The body positive folks must have annointed him as their patron saint.

The wealthy did eat a ton of food on a daily basis back then if the number of courses is anything to go by. I know they were bigger but the majority weren't fat. I don't know how. Lack of added sugar?

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