Adopted children and behavioral problems

Are you OP of the below-linked thread as well?

And what is your theory on the behavioral problems of children raised by their birth parents? Those little fuckers are far worse than any adopted children I've known.

Statistics please.

The only adopted person I met was perfectly sane and nice, a bit nerdy, a bit ugly, but not problematic at all.

OP, I wonder whether this question is based on YOUR observations or statistical studies? I'm no expert. I've known maybe one or two people who were adopted and they seemed no different than those reared with birth parents. Maybe people will cite some studies.

I do know that for all children, ages 1-5 are critical years for social and emotional development. Adopted or not, if raised at a minimum by unkind, aloof parents, then these children are starved and grow up feeling and acting different than those raised by kind and responsive parents. That's a start.

This is a thread that is almost useless in one way. I am adopted. But usually when you start a conversation about it , invariably you get the “ What about all the rejected babies?” “They need to just be raised correctly “ and a nice one i find. “ We can show them love and they will be our child and they can be like me”. The best one is “. They should be grateful they are wanted by someone.” If any of you think like that DONT Adopt ever!!!.

Never believe that a child should be grateful for being adopted. They don’t owe you anything. You adopted them for your own reasons rarely is it for the child. You are getting a child who already feels rejected. That is going to be one of the most defining things in their life. Saying things like “ At least you know you were wanted” doesn’t take away for the clear fact that they weren’t wanted initially.

The idea of where they come from will define many children as they grow up. As these are not easy answers for adoptees , you get a lot of children behaving in Pinocchio ways. They always put the best part of them forward and like icebergs hide most of what they feel inside.

Because they want to be accepted, they will try hard to fit in and will always feel different.

Frankly unless you are an adoptee it is hard to explain how you feel as one. I had a very privileged life and yet , yet there was always something.

[quote]Adopted children and behavioral problems

Pfft - Pork chops and applesauce!

[quote] Is it because there was no bonding from Birth mother in womb?

It is because their mothers were all maids.

Nah, R8, I was one from before Roe V Wade. A rich girls' unwed mothers' home.

Adopted children start fires, it's true.

It’s actually because of the bonding in the womb that is then severed once the child is surrendered. Babies can distinguish their mothers from others.

Many adoptees describe a sense of floating above reality, disconnected from what os happening. Many studies show a far higher risk of mental health issues, substance abuse, and criminal activity. Many adopted girls “return to the scene of the crime” and get pregnant early.

None of this is to suggest that adoption is wrong. However, most adoptees were raised with messages like “at least you weren’t aborted” or “you know your parents wanted you” or “family is family.” These messages can dismiss very real issues adoptees experience.

What if the birth mother was forced to give birth and resented the baby in womb ? Would the baby sense the hostility? Poor kid

One of the things as a Society we are loath to do is to talk about consequences and responsibility.

We frequently lie as a Society. We say to Women, you can just freeze your eggs, you can give birth in your 40s. Children don’t need two parents. Children are resilient. It doesn’t matter if they never know who the father or mother are, etc.

These are all huge questions. If you are desperate to have a child and can’t and it takes years to adopt, what happens if the child you get isn’t perfect? As I ask this I know most of you will say “ Of course I will love it “ , but is that what actually occurs or what you wished to occur?

We live in a Society that is forever telling people whatever they want they can have, if only they work for it. As a Society we don’t really know how to deal with the idea that actually it is easier to be a mum in your 20s and 30s and the older you get the harder it is. That some people can’t have children and that is ok. That if you adopt, it doesn’t mean your child owes you anything and if they don’t live up to your expectations that is not their fault.

We live in an imperfect world, yet we keep being disappointed when we push perfection onto a child that doesn’t live up to our shopping list of perfect.

R13, that causes personality disorders like narcissism and anti social

Read up attachment theory, attachment disorders, and their connection to personality disorders in adulthood. Not all of it is tied to adoption, but there is correlation.

I have several members in my family who are adopted, (not being able to carry babies runs in my family for some reason) and they're all normal. It surprised me since some of their parents are idiots and I'm impressed they were able to raise a normal child.

There's no evidence that babies bond with their mother in the womb, it's an old wives tale that's never been proven. They also don't recognize their mother, either by sight or smell, until well after birth.

There actually is plenty of evidence, r17.

[quote] Frankly unless you are an adoptee it is hard to explain how you feel as one. I had a very privileged life and yet , yet there was always something.

This is very saddening. As you are someone who was adopted, what can you advise parents to do in order to reduce or eliminate the "yet there was always something"?

I'm sure you all would rather have the baby murdered.

Always keep your options open R20.

From personal experience, I discovered that adopting children is only worth it 50% of the time.

Maybe it’s genetic.

Read this about Steve Jobs and Joan Didion’s daughter ( and Dominique Dunne’s cousin), Quintana Roo .

The person who committed the Stoneman Douglas High School shootings was adopted at birth. He had a well-documented history of behavioral problems. At the time he was adopted, his adoptive mother was 48 and his adoptive father was 61; they both passed away by the time their adopted son turned 19. His bio mother then had another baby (the shooter's half brother) whom she gave to the same family. The older mother also had an older daughter, whom she raised herself. Both she and her older daughter have a criminal history.

The problem with adopting kids is you have no clue sometimes as to what the birth parents medical and psychiatric history is. My step-mother adopted two kids while stationed abroad in Vietnam. One was your typical Asian nerd type, one was the product of a prostitute mother and American GI, both of whom were drug addicts. The one born of the drug addicts was a constant problem. Ended up kicked out of the house by both parents (divorced) for stealing, became a babydaddy to multiple women and lived by dubious means last I heard.

[quote] I've known maybe one or two people who were adopted and they seemed no different than those reared with birth parents.

How could you possibly know their internal psychological state.

[quote] There's no evidence that babies bond with their mother in the womb, it's an old wives tale that's never been proven.

Someone needs to study some evolutionary biology. Yes, there are hormones that are released during pregnancy and after that after that affect the mother and the fetus. There is definitely a maternal-fetal relationship - sometimes good, sometimes at odds. The phenom of the "maternal-fetal conflict" is very interesting and if studied more and understood better can teach us how that conflict can be mitigated after birth.

Stress hormones released by the mother can affect the development of the fetus.

The problem is that you are thinking in traditional "bonding" mode like koochie koocie koo and but there are primitive biological bonds via hormones that have effects on both the mother and the fetus/baby in both subtle and profound ways.

It's very exciting that we are at this point where we may be able to find ways to compensate in child development & maternal/child bonding where science/biology has caused a deficit. We can see the results of poor child development all over society.

[quote] one was the product of a prostitute mother and American GI, both of whom were drug addicts

FU. No American GI has ever been a drug addict. They are all heroes.

R24 Joan Didions daughter was a complicated case. Quintana may have had pre existing issues but her adoptive parents were extremely cold and withholding. Terrible parents. I never quite understood why they felt compelled to adopt. Perhaps Didion couldn't conceive and they caved to social pressure, I don't know. Roo also came of age in a time that seemed to produce a lot of deeply damaged people ( for all of the 60s 70s nostalgia I see here I am convinced that the era resulted in people even more fucked in the head than today's generation).

I saw a documentary where this family adopted a girl and she murdered the father at the end (she had also murdered her previous adopted family by burning down their house). It turns out she was a midget Russian nymphomaniac!

Adopt a child adopt a monster.

My sister and BIL adopted two kids, siblings. The boy was one year old and the girl was a newborn. The boy is fine and a typical 11 year old but his sister is already a sociopath at the age of 10. I can't imagine what she'll be like in 10 or 15 years.

R32 details about her behavior? And were the boy and girl biologically related?

Sadly, yes, most adopted children end up very resentful/hateful of their adoptive parents/family.

It's not worth it.

R33 yes same father. Both parents were just unfit and the father was a drug user. Mother gave up the daughter for adoption stipulating that the adoptive parents would have to adopt both kids. My sister and BIL were already fostering the boy so they adopted both kids. The sister can be very combative and aggressive and seems to feel violence is the answer for everything. I've never met a 10 year so vindictive. She can't let anything go no matter how petty.

R34, blaming the only party who had no choice in the matter

R29, Joan feels tremendous guilt over Roo’s death . In Blue Nights, she asked Hospitalized Roo if she was a good mother ,Roo responded “ Yes, but remote .” That’s sad. But I have no doubt she loved Roo as her daughter, regardless of blood ties.

R35, you think higher functioning autistic? Aspies can be like this

Not exactly a big surprise. Children need to have their needs met adequately and consistently by reliable carers that they know and trust. If there's an interruption in this, or if they suffer periods of neglect and abuse, they will pay for it all their lives. That's one of the reasons Stephen Miller's policy of taking children away from parents at the border is so inhuman. It's guaranteed to fuck up both parents and children for life, besides the fact that the perpetrators claim to have "lost" some of the children so they can't be reunited with their parents.

Related thread

Anyone familiar with The Baby Richard Case? A four year old is essentially legally kidnapped by his biological parents from a close, loving , happy home .

OP believes a mother magically "bonds" with her fetus, rather than merely feeding it with her own body and giving it half her genes to exist in the first place.

Babies read minds? "Bonding" produces some sort of psychic nutrient? "Feel" what the mother is feeling?

Stress has consequences. That's not the same as "not bonding" or pretending that an unwanted fetus that is well cared for physically is going to "know" the mother doesn't want it.

Fabulist. Fake. Unwanted child.

R42, fetuses aren’t very in tuned with their mother in womb.

Are

R42, I’m adoptee and my beliefs were much like yours until I met my birth mother. There were frighteningly on point similarities throughout my biological family.

I can’t say authoritatively that I bonded to her. There is no memory of a pre-adoptive me. What I can tell you is that the humiliating and cruel experience of giving up a child utterly broke her soul. She physically felt that bond and then had it severed.

1. Reactive Attachment disorder is terrifying. 2. I have a friend who relocated to the more rural area we both now live, he was recruited by a private school for the 1%s troubled kids. He said once in conversation that over half of the enrolled students were from great families of privilege but bc of the demographics most likely to place their children (even when planned) for adoption the likelihood of a complex diagnosis was incredibly high. It's technically better to use crack than alcohol during pregnancy, and between addicts, or young mothers (another high risk demographic for congenital conditions). All lead to having harder children to raise, almost always with behavioral disorders and chemical imbalances.

The problem is viwing “adopted children” as one big group. There are children who are adopted at birth under an adoption plan that is well constructed and in some cases even a *relief* to the healthy, non-addicted birth parents who are just not ready to be parents (but also not in favor of/capable of receiving an abortion). There are other children who are born in dire circumstances and adopted at a later age. And so on. There are countless stories and, yes, considering the circumstances of adoption, often with a drug, alcohol, poverty component. But there is no one kind of adopted child, so there is no one-size-fits-all outcome.

Look Adoption is complicated and I believe in some cases it can work out well. But the pitfalls need to be looked at with open eyes and you can’t go in with fantasies that you have a clean slate on the child you get. You don’t.

In many ways we have been victims of the nurture/ nature arguments. Clearly it can be both. But to say Nature has no input here is disastrous.

My personality is a mirror image of my natural mother and out of her 5 children I am the most like her. In looks I am exact image of my natural father. Again he has 2 more children but I look the most like him. I have a very close relationship with my Natural mother and my siblings.

On the other hand I have picked up characteristics from my adoptive parents. I love them both and have been privileged to have been very lucky.

But you can’t say to a child who had no choice who your real parents are? That is a fucked question . Without any one of those people you may not exist. The whole well they raised you so you owe them. WTF is that. Do you think about that with your own families.?

The constant fear of an adopted child is rejection. Some of the behaviour they have is based on that. A person who is not adopted can always say “ Fuck off to their parents and basically in most cases not fear repercussions. An adopted child never feels like that. There is always the fear they will do the wrong thing and be rejected. The fact it does happen shows the fears are not unwarranted. So the behaviour can either be self destructive pushing of the boundaries to make the child be rejected, which they feel will happen anyway or complete denial of any problems.

I remember a friend of mine was discussing how someone they knew never questioned their adoption, loved their adopted family and felt they were his true family. Completely normal. No issues. Until one day he went into an isolated place in his property and blew his brains out. It was a mystery to everyone why he did it. To me it was fucking blindly obvious. He played a part he thought he needed to play until he could no longer stand it.

[quote] OP believes a mother magically "bonds" with her fetus, rather than merely feeding it with her own body and giving it half her genes to exist in the first place. Babies read minds? "Bonding" produces some sort of psychic nutrient? "Feel" what the mother is feeling?

Oh my. Because R42 doesn't understand biology it thinks it's magic. Poor dear needs to stick to English Lit or something not too hard.

In my case, as an adopted chlild, what the OP asks is rubbish. My sister, also adopted, claims she felt out of it from her earliest memory. She embarked upon a very public search for her bio parents, embarrassing our parents with her public declarations of how my mother abused her (true enough). She did this repeatedly. Eventually she tracked down the building where the papers were that had the identity of her bio parents. The building burned down with the papers shortly before the papers were due to be microfiched. Tant pis pour elle. I have since concluded that my sister didn't give a flying fuck about her bio parents, and embarked upon her cracked campaign in order to hurt my parents. Her subsequent behaviour confirms my recent conclusion. I finally put the dots together and saw clearly what a perfect horror she is. It's so very sad.

It is interesting how you phrase this r50. You say

“She embarked upon a very public search for her bio parents, embarrassing our parents with her public declarations of how my mother abused her (true enough)”

If your mother abused her , surely embarrassing her, is something she lost the right to make a big deal of.

It is interesting about siblings. You find quite often that one sibling will be all for finding their Birth Parents and the other one will not give a shit. My sister was always of the opinion that her natural mother didn’t want her so why would she need to find her. The fact that her natural mother was only 15 when she gave birth may have had a fucking lot to do with why she was given up. But that is her decision, I respect it. But for me, I had to know.

I wrote this in another adoption thread:

I was adopted at three days old. I'm 37 now. I met my birth mother when I was 20.

I've struggled a lot in life. I was bullied constantly as a kid. It was in part to being gay; but I also noticed the other adopted kids I knew were bullied too, and we all were oddballs. I always found that interesting. I wonder if anyone has ever studied the connection between adoption and bullying.

Anyway, I have struggled with drugs and alcohol, bipolar disorder, and suicidal thoughts most of my life. I've never been able to maintain a long-term romantic relationship. I do have some long-term fuck buddies who are as emotionally messed up as me (so on some level, it works). Friendships are also a struggle for me. Any interpersonal relationship takes a lot of time, effort, and frankly, heartache, and most of the time I don't deem them worth it.

Interestingly, I'd say my problems stem from genetics as much as they stem from the adoption. My birth mother has serious psychological issues that have never been addressed. She is extremely intelligent and yet has worked as a hotel maid her entire adult life. (Nothing wrong with that; but this is a woman who was able to teach herself to read Japanese.) She's a coke head too.

I feel that either way I would have been screwed. She had some other children whom she kept, and she proved to be a totally aloof, neglectful parent. Although I've had serious issues with my adopted parents, they are upper middle class and at least provided financial stability. We've had conflicts, but no more so than my non-adopted friends have had with theirs. I love them and view them as my only parents.

On balance, I think I'd have had a worse outcome had I not been adopted.

Good post r52. I agree. On balance, knowing the situation, when my natural mother became pregnant, adoption was the best choice. I was lucky and I had loving friends and wonderful people around me and my adopted parents loved me and I love them.

The issue for me is that is not all there is. People believe ,well Adoptionworks. There aren’t really problems in all of this and there are.

A child not born from you, is not blank slate. It is appalling that anyone would hide their history from someone. Who you are is fundamental to how you become. If you hide the history of who you are and where you come from you are condemning a child to a lifetime of pain and suffering for no reason, other than the egos of others involved. You are the summation of genetics and environment. To deny one, you condemn yourself to a lifetime of shit.

I know a woman who sought out her birth mother in her 20’s and it was a disaster, her birth mom ignored her at family reunion.

A lot of shitty bio parents see their kids as blank slates too R53, for whatever it's worth. Or see their kids basically as props or accessories. Traditional bad parenting isn't somehow blocked or enabled by adoption - it can exist in either situation.

[quote] I have struggled with drugs and alcohol, bipolar disorder, and suicidal thoughts most of my life.

R52, what a struggle you have had. You seem to have an emotional maturity that may have been your saving grace as you handled difficult issues. I am sure you are correct that your adoption "saved" you so to speak.

Why would other children know who was adopted unless it was obvious in some way? Are these things publicly discussed at school age? Why is that anyone's business? Some personal questions you obviously don't have to answer. When did you know? How did it affect your feelings for your parents? Do you have siblings?

Bi-polar issues can manifest themselves behaviorally at early ages. I saw that in my nephew. Children who are "different" get bullied. That in turn elicits behavior that may bot be the best response to bullying. Though the nuns at my schools would never have allowed that bullying and would have come down hard on bullies. Not that it can stop all of it but I do blame schools that refuse to put an end to real bullying.

Thanks for that insight. You seem to have reached a healthy understanding and self-awareness that all families have issues and parent-child relationships are fraught with problems.

r56 my theory is that adopted children recognized they don't "belong" with their adopted family in the same way biological children belong with theirs, and they internalize those feelings. They see themselves as different, weird, flawed, etc. I think these feelings transfer to the school setting, where they also don't feel they belong. And generally, kids who don't feel they belong are more commonly bullied, whether they are adopted or not.

Just my theory, anyway.

There are some great wrriters on this thread.

*writers* aghhh

R57, spot on!

There's lots of crackhead/heroin addicted babies born nowadays, they will grow up and slit your throat while you sleep someday. Get a dog or cat.

I'm adopted, as are my three brothers and sisters - all from different parents. As you can imagine, it didn't really work out all that well. None of us are close as siblings. We do not communicate at all. My parents were good, simple people but not really equipped to deal with such an incredibly complex situation. My sister had loads of mental problems that eventually led to her suicide. She's put the family through hell for years so when she died the siblings were sad for a week or so but mainly relieved.

It annoys me how the media pushes all these mixed gene families as being completely fine. I look at Madonna and her situation - multiple kids, multiple fathers, adopted and bio, retiree age mother. I can't imagine how incredibly shitty that must be for all involved. The money they get when she dies will be a good compensation though.

Adopted kids have attachment issues

You weren't there, [R51]. I was.

These parents have opened themselves up to a lifetime of disappointment and heartache.

[quote] my theory is that adopted children recognized they don't "belong" with their adopted family in the same way biological children belong with theirs, and they internalize those feelings. They see themselves as different, weird, flawed, etc. I think these feelings transfer to the school setting, where they also don't feel they belong. And generally, kids who don't feel they belong are more commonly bullied, whether they are adopted or not.

There is probably some validity to this and you're not the first I've heard it from. However, when I do hear or read it, the first thing that I wonder is, so are people suggesting adoption is not good for children and then what is the alternative? Rather than allowing children to be adopted which is harmful to their psyche and damages them for life, instead of adoption, should children without biological parents to care for them simply be kept in orphanages where no one else feels they belong until they are 18 and cast out to fend for themselves? Or is extermination the better option than adoption so instead of feeling they don't belong they won't feel anything?

R66 is an anti abortion loon

If there were birth parent is a sociopath, they’ll likely be a sociopath too.

I don’t buy in the nature over nurture

What is your first hand experience with adoption R69?

I don’t believe Adoption doesn’t work. It can be beneficial. But I believe in the Society we are now in we believe we can just imprint ourselves onto an adopted child and think there will be no issues. That we have “ saved “ them.

The child that comes into your life can be loving and caring .but you need to be aware this is not entirely your child. You can’t just mould it into a second you. It has a personality and that personality has both you , the child and the natural parents. If you allow that to bloom and talk to the child and make them understand how they are a product of many things this may work.

R64. I didn’t mean to be insulting. You are right I wasn’t there.

[quote]The child that comes into your life can be loving and caring .but you need to be aware this is not entirely your child. You can’t just mould it into a second you.

Doesn't this apply to bio kids as well, though? In fact a lot of the comments in this thread about dysfunction and incompetent parents seems, if you read any thread on unhappy families anywhere on the internet, extremely common. Has anyone ever done a solid, long-term study/studies to try to pick any of this apart? I can see how an "I saved you! be grateful!" mentality could be very harmful in raising a child but you hear "I birthed you! labour was 5 days! be grateful!" allllll the time as well. How much of this is adoption (i.e. adoption as an isolated factor) and how much of it is the fact that shitty parents seem really, really, really common - and that means there are probably lots of bio AND lots of adopted kids being raised by them?

I'm not saying there won't be any unique circumstances or manifestations of bad parenting re: adopted children. I guess I'm just questioning whether those bad parents would have been any better with bio kids and don't really see a reason to assume they would.

Adoptees know from lifelong experience that they will be discounted and ignored. They will be told their experience is nothing unusual or unique. And if it is? They should be endlessly grateful for not being aborted.

Sure - feeling alienated from your biological parents is EXACTLY the same as not growing up with anyone who remembers your birth, anyone who can share your background, or anyone who looks like you. It’s EXACTLY like having people who barely know you debate the morality of your very existence. It’s EXACTLY like being a transracial adoptee and having strangers challenge you and your parents in public settings.

And if you say anything? Get ready to be called angry.

If you're addressing me R73, I didn't say or claim any of those things you're refuting. Questioning whether or not adoption *inherently* fucks up children (which is a controversial position and not one I've heard offline) is not the same as breezily discounting all the negative or complex emotions of a given adopted person.

Check out the "Do You Like Your Siblings" thread if you're interested. Families - bio and adoptive - can be almost incomprehensibly fucked up. If anyone's making light of experiences here it seems to be you, acting like "alienation" from bio parents could never be as bad as the lot of an adopted child. Which, again, obviously isn't true. Some adopted people (in fact both of the ones I know) have good relationships with their parents. Some bio-kids have horror-movie level abusive relationships with theirs. No one's experiences should be discounted - or assumed - based on the single fact of adopted vs not-adopted.

Knew a lovely christian couple (Yes,they were true christians and exceptionally kind and loving) that adopted an angelic little Russian girl .Blonde hair,blue eyes ,like a china doll. Unfortunately she was also Satan incarnate. They got her when she was about 14 months old,and by the time she was 5 they were already having problems. They tried everything,spent untold amounts of money on programs and doctors ,to the point it almost bankrupted them,and by the time that demon was 12 it was no holds barred chaos. Thief,liar,chronic runaway,violent.You name it she did it. Her bio mother must have been schizo. She was pregnant by 13,a prostitute and stripper by 15 ,another kid by 16 (the adoptive parents were raising both of them the last time I was in touch and already having problems with the boy) and last but not least,the demon was sentenced to prison at 19 for cutting an old tricks throat and robbing him .He didnt die or she would have never gotten out. She did get 25 years. My poor friends aged decades in a few years and yet they still persevered . Id have moved and not given that little cunt a forwarding address .

[quote] Though the nuns at my schools would never have allowed that bullying and would have come down hard on bullies.

It is gratifying that you can believe this to have been the case.

Thank you for sharing it.

[quote] It is gratifying that you can believe this to have been the case.

Maybe because I saw it happen. There may have been plenty of faults in the nuns and behavior by students that went undetected but being unkind was not allowed. It was behavior that was dealt with and that kind of pressure and even shaming from adults and authority figures works to a great extent. You do have to start young though - like at home.

This is actually a really good channel about a foster dad who became an adoptive dad of an older boy.

R75, bonding in infancy is vital . This kid was raised in orphanages run by cold hearted people who gave no warmth. Ted Bundy and Charles Manson had severe severing of bond with mom

I've seen several videos of the single father adopting the old kid shown at R78. The father is a social worker, single and never married, and lives with his parents. I don't get a gay vibe from him. They belong to a church, Episcopalian, I think. When he first adopted the kid the child was quite feral and there were a lot of problems. The guy credits his church and his parents for helping him help the child.

Has anyone else noticed that anti-adoptionism has weirdly become a thing in certain right-wing internet sewers? There are a few subreddits I lurk in (always being banned but they pop up again almost right away under different names) that are always very quick on whatever the latest cool thing to hate is. They were on the anti-trans bandwagon years ago, are always masturbating (sorry, I mean complaining) about the latest degeneracy, and I noticed about 3 years ago there were suddenly multiple anti-adoption threads. Very weird, all from the "not natural, therefore degenerate/raising a non-bio child is a simp move/you fail Darwinism if you raise a non-bio kid" etc. perspective. Very weird even for that crowd. It definitely seems to have migrated here - there are too many threads for this to be organic.

Babies need consistent, loving, present caregivers. A bio-parent who fails that test is objectively worse for a baby's life outcome than a non-bio parent who doesn't. The truth is most adults are hardwired to care for infants, they're hardwired to need our attention and care and caring for them (feeding, bathing etc.) is the very thing that bonds each to each. Some here will deny it but the truth is if someone handed you a newborn tomorrow and locked you in a cave with all the means to care for it for 18 months, you would probably emerge from that cave in a year and a half ready to take a bullet for the kid.

[quote] The truth is most adults are hardwired to care for infants

I don't think there is any scientific evidence for that except in biological mothers. I think what you think is "hard wiring" is societal and cultural norms for decency.

The reality is - and this sounds awful and I don't mean it to but - that adoption by anyone who is caring and willing to dedicate themselves to raising a child is better than nothing and may be all that child needs to make it successfully and psychologically healthy through life.

I know of at least one study, R83, that documents a significant testosterone drop in fathers (who, obviously, do not experience pregnancy or the direct hormone fluctuations of pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding etc.). It seems to drop lower the more the father is involved in childcare. That's a documented physiological response to infant-care - one that is speculated to keep dad around the children (i.e. because he's less likely to be out trawling for strange if his test levels are way down).

Hardwiring exists in animals. Another mother's babies can be placed with a non-bio mother and she will adopt them and treat them no different to her own in multiple species. Fathers in other species who help raise offspring are also, surely, to be described as "hardwired" to do so. We humans sometimes don't like to admit how much of our behaviour is on this animal level.

Yes, R84, I've seen that. Whether that is a desirable effect is up for debate. It can be good for some things but not for others. Just an example, if the lower testosterone diminishes behavior that makes that father a better provider or better protector when there is already a parent who can provide the hands on nurturing. That may not matter as much or any more in many families or in some modern societies. But who knows. Lots of implications and it is really an interesting area of study and behavior. What does that lowering of testosterone do to a relationship, for instance? Does it risk the stability of it? Just throwing out potentialities.

Females of various species have the same hormones that fuel behaviors. You normally find that in animals who have given birth - they do readily adopt non-bio offspring. Obviously anomalies exist. But whether the anomalies are maternally driven or driven by something else may be the issue.

What fathers in non-human species help raise offspring? Just not coming to mind off the top of my head.

Unless you are a sociopath, you will eventually respond to the sound of a human infant crying and try to comfort it. Men, on average, take longer, probably because they are waiting to see if a woman responds first, but that’s the only difference. There are studies, but I am too lazy to look them up right now.

Being for or against adoption is ridiculous. It’s like getting remarried after widowhood in the sense that something bad happened in the past and there are special challenges involved that are better faced honestly than ignored.

A lot of adoptees are gay

Very nice insights from Robert.

"But you can’t say to a child who had no choice who your real parents are? That is a fucked question . Without any one of those people you may not exist. The whole well they raised you so you owe them. WTF is that. Do you think about that with your own families.? The constant fear of an adopted child is rejection. Some of the behaviour they have is based on that. A person who is not adopted can always say “ Fuck off to their parents and basically in most cases not fear repercussions. An adopted child never feels like that."

R48, no child has a choice in who their parents are!

And just so you know, a lot of bio parents put huge demands for gratitude onto their kids, both for breeding them and for the money and effort put into raising them (particularly shitty parents who feel guilty about being shitty parents, they demand that the kids display gratitude because that makes the guilt go away). There are also entire cultures that believe in "filial piety", which requires that people spend their entire lives displaying slavish gratitude towards their parents because they owe the parents for the "gift of life".

As for a fear of rejection, my parents made their dislike and disappointment clear for 18 years, and then chucked me out on my ass and had to fend for myself. Yes, an adopted child's fear of rejection has to be huge because a lot of adoptive children are for real returned to the social services system when the parents can't cope with them, but just so you know, biological children can be rejected by their parents as well.

R90 I am sorry that you had unloving parents who then left you to care for yourself when you became an adult . That must have been very hard for you. Clearly it has stunted you emotionally, such that you are unable to understand that the reality other people’s different challenges in no ways invalidate the the truth of your miserable existence.

I always wanted to foster or adopt a kid or siblings if my bank account got to a certain level. But there are so many horror stories about foster kids (e.g. hurting/abusing pets and other children in the home, making awful accusations against foster parents). Of course, it's not their fault. The behavior is a reaction to severe trauma they suffered at the hands of their fucked up bio parents and even similarly-fucked up foster parents. It's hard to overcome that damage, even with love, money, therapy, etc.

Sometimes, even if you adopt a newborn baby, it will have problems. Look at Rosie O'Donnell's older daughter. Of course, Rosie wasn't a perfect mother, but the child was problematic from a young age. Later, she ran away from home before she was 18, sold stories to the tabloids. Rosie said that the daughter was born with a hole in her brain as a result of her bio mom's drug use during pregnancy. Rosie had all the financial resources in the world to devote to her daughter, who was in therapy from a young age, and it still wasn't enough.

Elder lez is an adopted reject who feels no empathy.

I've thought about this reading Rosie's twitter and stuff.

Adopted 4 kids. One autistic, one learning disabilities (still got into a good college but dropped out), and then the daughter that went wild and ran away and caused all sorts of public problems.

Parker is the only one she seemed to have an easy time with plus the one that her first wife gave birth to.

Google "reactive attachment disorder". Then, just "rehome" him thru one of the many "my adoptive kid is a demon, do you want him?" groups on facebook!

“Has anyone else noticed that anti-adoptionism has weirdly become a thing in certain right-wing internet sewers? There are a few subreddits I lurk in (always being banned but they pop up again almost right away under different names) that are always very quick on whatever the latest cool thing to hate is. They were on the anti-trans bandwagon years ago, are always masturbating (sorry, I mean complaining) about the latest degeneracy, and I noticed about 3 years ago there were suddenly multiple anti-adoption threads. Very weird, all from the "not natural, therefore degenerate/raising a non-bio child is a simp move/you fail Darwinism if you raise a non-bio kid" etc. perspective. Very weird even for that crowd. It definitely seems to have migrated here - there are too many threads for this to be organic”. R81

I really don’t know how to answer this. Some people have revealed their experiences and pain and you come back with ,” Has anyone noticed that anyone against adoption is Right Wing shit” I actually think that is incredibly insulting. You go for it.

Perhaps if you read some studies on the internet that have been given or even books or even case studies.

How dare you decide other people’s pain doesn’t fit your narrative so needs to be dismissed as Right Wing Propaganda.,

I know it must be hard to believe that Adoption isn’t all roses for everyone but get this. Some Adoptees have a right to share their stories and because it doesn’t fit your narrative it makes them shut up. Have you noticed less adoptees have opened up the last few replies.

R96, pointing out that some right-wing loons are anti-adoption has no bearing on adoptees sharing their stories, and is not an endorsement of the right-wing lunatic fringe's idiotic views. The person above just reported that these guys have included anti-adoption into their batshit worldview.

Seriously, it sounds like an idea the alt-right incels would introduce into their echo chamber. They aren't getting laid or breeding, but that doesn't stop them of being terrified of raising "another man's child", which mostly makes them terrified of unfaithful women and female sexuality in general, and I suspect they're expanding that fear of other men's children into being against adoption. Seriously, they're that crazy!

And whatever is going through their tiny paranoid minds, it's not a real understanding of the complexities of adoption.

My sister and her husband adopted a brother and sister who were 6 and 4 years old. No one knows what became of the birth mother, but it seems after the daughter was born, the mother simply disappeared. The kids were taken from their father after it was found he was sexually molesting his son. My sister and BIL couldn't have kids of their own, so at the get go, their adopted kids were/are their only kids. No parents are perfect, but I think my sister and BIL were pretty good parents.

When my nephew was 17, his perv birth father made contact with him. My sister and brother-in-law were worried, angry, afraid, you name it, but my nephew being 17 and close to turning 18, my sister and BIL felt helpless to do anything particularly since my nephew wanted to get to know his birth father with whom he hadn't had contact for over a decade. Once my nephew turned 18, his biological dad convinced him to move into his apartment. They bonded over alcohol and my nephew became an alcoholic (like his biological father) and in order to keep a sense of connection and control over my nephew, got him hooked on drugs. (Daddy dearest deals.)

My nephew has nothing to do with my sister and BIL and they are heartbroken at the path he has taken. No job. No education beyond high school. Addict. Meanwhile, my niece (his sister) refuses to have anything to do with her biological dad. She still has contact with her brother from time to time, usually when he asks her for money. She won't give him any, so he cuts her off until he next wants something. She still remains close to my sister and BIL even though she goes to college in another state.

The point of this lengthy post is that it's amazing how an adopted set of siblings who were raised in the same household with the same love, boundaries, and privileges could turn out so differently. And it's mind-boggling that the one who was sexually molested for several years ends up choosing to be with the molester father after his jail time. Apparently, he tells people that my sister and her husband were never his parents and the only parent he has is S----.

To be fair bio kids can have major behavioral issues too. Like that psycho little 12 year old Canadian girl who teamed up with her 20 something boyfriend to off her parents. I think shes out of jail now but her identity is protected. Creepy. People always stereotype the adopted kids as trouble but the " natural" ones can turn too

I don't know what to say R96. I wasn't lying about the odd anti-adoptionism that sprung up in right wing circles a few years ago, seemingly out of nowhere. If you think what I've take from that is: "and therefore all adoptions are good and all adoptions work out for the child and anyone who says otherwise is lying" I just want to say that's not correct. Everything I've said on this thread backs up my belief that black and white statements about issues as complex as parenthood and adoption are rarely correct. OF COURSE some adoptions don't go well and the child suffers. OF COURSE that child's pain is valid. The fact that someone doesn't think all adoption is degenerate doesn't mean they think it's all good, either.

R91 is a classic internet response. First of all, you assume an attack where I don't see one, and then you directly do the thing you appear to believe has been done to you: pretty brutally insulting, dismissing and invalidating another human being's pain.

I mean, holy shit. Even for DL that was an insane response.

[quote] And it's mind-boggling that the one who was sexually molested for several years ends up choosing to be with the molester father after his jail time.

But isn't that the one who would end up the most damaged and need the bad abusive parent in a sick way. Though if he was adopted at 4 I wonder how much he realized he was being abused.

R74 I'm going to defend the adoptee here because I agree with them that being adopted and alienated isn't the same as biological alienation. No matter what, there's still biology ties, even if their family sucks worse.

I say this as someone half adopted. There was a very different dynamic between myself and the parent that was bio and the parent that was not -- being biological related absolutely was at the heart the of it. It's not something easily explained in words.

"...I agree with them that being adopted and alienated isn't the same as biological alienation. No matter what, there's still biology ties, even if their family sucks worse."

You were referring to issues raised my post, and just so you know, there are cases where shared DNA isn't enough to create a bond. Specifically when the parents are big enough assholes.

I can't compare it to the lack of bond experienced by adoptive kids, but I can tell you that biological bonds may be strong, but not strong enough that some abusive asshole can't break them.

R90, you don’t seem to realize what you are doing again and again, which is to minimize the experience of adoptees. It’s like a woman opening up about her rape, and you respond by pointing out how often male rape is ignored. Or someone talks about the effects of the AIDS crisis on the gay community, and you immediately change the subject to the suffering of hemophiliacs and Haitians. You really should look into why you do this.

Just be glad you didn’t adopt a midget posing as a child or Evan Hansen.

Thank you R90. You expressed what I was attempting to in a better way.

As a half adopted person also in a family full of both 100% biological and 100% adopted members, there are just different things that go along with adoption. And those things happen whether the adoption is a wonderful, successful thing or not.

One distinction getting lost on this thread is whether the child is adopted at birth, or later. The first years, months, or even days are crucial bonding time between baby and caregiver. Even a few months in an orphanage or subpar care, while not an insurmountable obstacle, is a big deal in terms of bonding/attachment.

I recently watched a documentary about breast milk; it was found that a mother’s milk is produced based on the sex of the offspring. It’s not only the type of milk, but quantity; girls require more milk than boys, usually. The human species is phenomenal and very tied to the genes of the mother, in particular.

R104 well of course bonds can be broken in natural families, especially due to abuse, but I still think it's different to not sharing blood. Half my natural family doesn't even talk to each other any more, but at the end of the day, they are still "family", with all that entails. Being adopted can bring up a lot of "what ifs" about being with blood instead of the adopter.

I think nuture can be more influential than nature in shaping who we are; however, there's something inherent about nature when it comes to who we are that can't be ignored either. There's so many twin separations that show how two people end up leading eerily similar lives, despite never meeting. I know I have traits that are central to who I am that come from a bio parent I was never around -- talents, personality quirks, thought processes, etc.

This leads to the what ifs, because you wonder how your paternal relationship would be if you were parented by someone with those similar natural characteristics. Maybe if that parent had been in my life, at least there would've been some core things in common, that the unrelated parent did not have, regardless of the quality of relationship.

Everyone wants to know who they are. Ancestor DNA wouldn't be as popular if not. Why otherwise would we care to find out what we can about our great, great, great, great, great grandparents? Even children of serial killers have a struggle with shared blood, when we're told that shouldn't matter to who we are. Not that I don't agree with that -- we should not live life dependent on that bio info because we can adapt, but it doesn't completely erase the yearning to know where we've come from genetically. It's a type of "bond" that will never be able to be fully explained.

ElderLez at r91, that was entirely unnecessary. I've never understood your dedication to being as judgmental and nasty as possible to someone who is clearly dealing with a serious issue.

I have no idea why you later at r107 praised r90 for the post you'd just insulted them for. You seem not only really angry and awful but confused.

R90 wasn't dismissing the experiences of adopted children, he was pointing out the flaws in the so-called logic of many DLers. Most complicated topics on DL turn into a series of replies based on half-assed armchair psychology, and the things people say because they think it sounds good aren't logically sound, and no one ever posts a link or a quote to actual studies about these things, even though they're easy to get to. They just post their opinions and then triple down on them and whine when people don't take them as established fact.

He's right to point out that this claim that "no matter what, there's always a biological tie" isn't always true.

The Baby Richard case r41 references ended with the father winning custody of the kid, having him removed from the home of his adoptive parents when he was four, and then when he was five the father ran off again and left the kid behind.

You are correct R111, I meant to thank R105 who referenced R90, but instead accidentally thanked R90.

Conflating the issues adoptees face with the problems that people raised by terrible biological parents is very insulting to people raised by wonderful adoptive parents.

Baby Richard story was a nightmare. I truly worry for this kid’s ( late 20’s). Soul. He was deeply attached to his adopted parents and big brother . His birth parents were just so cruel

The issue r113 is that you decided your opinion was the truth, and that the guy you were talking to needed to be punished for not agreeing with your opinion. That's why you told him he was emotionally stunted with a miserable life and was unable to understand the (relatively simple) concepts posted here, i.e. he was stupid. It was a judgmental and over-the-top hateful comment you obviously hoped would personally hurt him.

That is incredibly messed up. I don't care how justified you think you are, it crossed a line. This is especially true when you (and, honestly, nearly everyone else on DL) never say anything like that to the people calling gays "f*ggot pedos" or blacks "n*ggers" or anything like that. You reserve your deep well of hatred for people who commit the crime of, er, disagreeing with you in a reply.

The adopted kid I knew was a little TOO well behaved. He acted like his family was going to regret adopting him so he had to go above and beyond to please them and prove himself to them.

R116, that’s exactly what happened to baby Richard. In his mind, his parents( adopted). gave him away, his whole life and everyone in it disappeared. He was super close to them . His new parents ( bio) encouraged him to be happy all the time . He was described as a “ model child”.

The US is pretty unusual in that adoption is considered to be a positive thing

You asked for studies here go your hardest

Another one

Let’s continue

One on substance abuse 43% times higher than non Adopted children in Lifetime abuse

On adoptees having a higher attempted suicide rate

I will never be persuaded from my fundamental belief that adopted children start out life with at least one, maybe two, strike(s) against them. The rupture of that all-important maternal bond - especially if you believe, as do many experts in the field, that our basic personalities are shaped in our first ten months of life - can often be insurmountable.

Mental health

These are just a few articles of hundreds of articles on such subjects.

I have no problem having a reasonable discussion on Adoption and the pros and cons ,but someone starts telling me that issues with Adoption stem from possible Right Wing issues or that they have never heard any issues about Adoption. I say fucking educate yourselves then. You can find hundreds of cases studies etc.

There are great adoptions. I am adopted and I still am not entirely sure there is a better option. I love my adopted parents and had, as I have said a privileged life.

But make no mistake there have been issues. I was schooled never to tell lies, but the biggest lie of all, I was adopted, I was supposed to keep secret. People would say how much I looked like my adopted parents and I would smile and my mum would smile. No one would know the secret that I was matched in a time when you could match with hair colour, eye etc. I looked and acted how I was supposed too. I learnt to lie to everyone.

Yes I get that children from biological parents can have just as much shit etc. But you know who are, where you come from. They are huge benefits, that an adoptee would kill for.

It is very hard to get adoptees to speak up, especially on a Gay Forum where everyone is supposed to be so happy that Gay people can adopt. I am happy about that. But I am not going to lie again. So I say to other adoptees, speak up. Don’t worry. Safe space:)

I blame an over abundance of Febreze spray.

"The US is pretty unusual in that adoption is considered to be a positive thing"

Yes, adoption is more complex than it was thought to be 50-100 years ago, when everyone assumed that there was no problem fitting a newborn into a family regardless of DNA. There's more to it than that, but even if adopted kids don't have quite the same maturation experience as bio children adoption still has to be better than orphanages or foster care!

There are cultures where adoption isn't practiced, China and Korea at least, and what happens to orphaned or abandoned children there? Orphanages?

My husband is adopted. A few years ago he read everything he could find on adoption. There is very little truthful literature on the subject, but what you can find makes a strong case against adoption, unless a child is completely orphaned with no family. Adoption destroys birth mothers' lives and the statistics prove how much it damages the lives of adopted children, and sometimes even passes to their children as well. I can't quote the statistics now, but my husband was amazed he turned out as well as he did-- mainly by finding his birth family and finding one relative-- an uncle-- with whom he has a good relationship. His birth mother is a mess and re-abandoned him. His birth father was a biker and drug addict who died a few years after they reunited. The birth dad had searched for him. Birth mother had not. Husband also dumped a few step- and adoptive family members who were not supportive of his search for answers. Birth mother and adoptive mother have never told him exactly how he was adopted. Both claim not to remember.

The myth that a baby is like a puppy and can be raised by anyone is bullshit. (Read about the panic babies feel when they smell strangers.) My husband believes abortion is infinitely better than adoption or maybe teaching young mothers and their families how to a parent. You can overcome a bad parent. You can't overcome abandonment-- and in many cases, a bad adoptive parent.

R129, what do you think is better? Being open from the beginning with a child, letting him know s/he is adopted? Or waiting till the kid is 18 and then dropping that bomb? By your logic, it's better to keep it a secret so the kid won't feel "abandoned" while growing up.

R130, I think the kid freaks out over being adopted at early age. The problem is the family and neighbors know. It’s a terrible situation

I don't think many modern parents even have the option of not telling their kids they were adopted, even in the rare cases where a straight couple gets a baby that resembles them physically. Nowadays, with open adoptions, birth parents suing for visitation or custody, older kids being adopted, or parents telling the whole world about what a struggle international adoptions are, secrecy is no longer possible.

Besides, I've heard of cases where a child is told they were adopted in young adulthood, and they freak out about "being lied to", and never speak to the adoptive parents again.

R130 My husband was told at an early age he was adopted. What he was never told, even now, is HOW it happened. His adoptive parents were 20! Had only been married less than a year! They divorced 3 years later. It was some church deal. An origin story might help a child (the reason for the adoption.) At least it's not being secretive. But the abandonment is deep. A baby knows it is not with its mother. This is true for babies born to surrogates too. No one is going to stop doing what they're doing, but they should know the facts. abandonment: when we were first together, my husband would follow me room to room-- until I pointed it out to him.

His birth parents were 16 and 17. They begged to marry. My husband's grandmother demanded the baby be given up, and he was. That's all my husband knows.

R129, thank you for sharing that. It is truly eye opening.

My mother's mother died a week after her birth and she was raised by her father (I think alone) for about a year. Then my mother's family - Irish catholic grandmother, and 5 siblings convinced her father to let them raise my mother. He agreed. My mother was adored and loved by her maternal relatives and one aunt in particular became her mother figure. But despite it not being her mother's fault because she died, though it was her father's fault (my mom later learned he had earlier abandoned 2 other daughters for a while after his first wife died and one ended up in an orphanage for a while), she always felt abandoned and kinda betrayed. Despite that loving upbringing she still felt the pain of those losses. I remember once when my mom was in her 60s and she felt ill and was worried she had cancer or something awful. I asked her why she always expected the worst to happen to her. Despite my mom having been married for over 40 years, having numerous children that adored her and let her know that, and many people who admired and loved her, she told me that she always expected the worst because maybe that's all she felt she deserved. I was utterly stunned when she said that and I realized in that moment how long lasting the effects of abandonment were. I just had no idea. And despite her always cheerful attitude and kindness toward others and refusal to belly ache about life in general, she was somehow able to finally share that with me, her closest child. She almost seemed ashamed to say it.

As dorky as this sounds, hugs to your husband, R129.

[quote] The human species is phenomenal and very tied to the genes of the mother, in particular.

In an era of unknown multiple baby daddies, it's probably best.

[quote]A baby knows it is not with its mother. This is true for babies born to surrogates too.

Request link to studies please.

Study

Study

Study

Conclusion of linked study at R137:

[quote]Conclusion: Two-day-old breastfeeding newborn infants who experienced skin-to-skin contact with their mothers were able to recognise their axillary odour.

This study says nothing about infant "knowing" - it says nothing about panic, attachment, emotions or later outcomes. If we're going to infer that the ability of vaginally delivered+breastfed newborns to turn towards their bio mother's BO = proof of attachment/infant contentment then I suspect we're going to have a Mommy War on our hands regarding c-section and non-breastfed infants. Also, this study may indicate that adopted (at birth) infants would benefit from skin to skin contact with adoptive parents.

Perhaps this study is part of the proof of something larger, but on its own it isn't. To be rigorous those same infants would need to be followed into childhood, other factors would have to be isolated and they would have to be directly compared to adopted/non breastfed/non vaginally delivered babies. It's not enough to back up a claim that a newborn "knows" it's not with its mother - or to go further and infer that this is somehow inherently damaging. This is the kind of shitty extrapolation that leads to "women are better with people than men" because female babies gaze at images of human faces for slightly longer than male babies.

Link at R138 goes to an "Oops! Page Unavailable" message at abcnews

Link at R39 says babies recognize, post-birth, sounds that they heard in the womb. Including the theme music from their mother's favourite soap opera. Again, there is nothing here to indicate that babies "know" they are not with their bio mothers. You either know this and linked the study anyway, or you believe it does show this (the study isn't even close to showing what you claim, it is not concerned with it at all). Again it may indicate that playing sounds a baby might recognize from being in a bio mother's womb could help an adopted baby. Should be pretty easy to find soap opera theme songs online.

R140, just not getting it. Are you a male by any chance?

No r140 just doesn’t want to believe that something non adopted born child has that an adopted child does not have is so important.

In one way I get it. Why would you. It must seem to them in some ways ungrateful. Therein lies the problem. A child should never feel grateful for being born. After all did it asked to be “saved”.

The issue with being born and knowing what makes you you and what makes you unique is fundamentally human. Your history,your characteristics etc . When this is ignored and then on top of that you are adopted , it can be traumatic.

Children are not things and thinking that you can just give them love and they are yours. If that is what you want get a dog.

Surrogacy the other side

Surrogacy

R134. Thanks. I'm so proud of him. He's worked hard since he was 17 (no college. adoptive family didn't believe in it.) and has educated himself. The year of adoption reading was a hard year and his birth mother's 2nd abandonment, but he's better than ever. It's the secrets that kill you and not being able to be angry and tell parents-- adopted, step, or birth-- to fuck off when they don't act like parents should. Real parents don't leave and never make children feel beholden.

I was adopted as an infant and and love my (adoptive) parents the same as I would love parents who share my genes. I’m much closer to my parents than any of my friends are to theirs.

Growing up, I always felt like an outsider, like I didn’t fit in. That may have nothing to do with being adopted though. My family never treated me any differently than they did bio relatives. If anything, I was especially doted on. My parents tried for a long time to have a baby, so when I finally came, my aunts, uncles, cousins and grandparents all treated me like a prince.

I always excelled in school, have a professional degree, was making in the mid-6 figures by my early 30s, never got into drugs, have been in a long term relationship for many years with no issues.

I met my bio family as an adult and feel zero connection to them. My bio grandmother was really happy to meet me and contacts me often, but I really don’t have the urge to call her or have a relationship with her. I love the grandmothers I grew up with so much and was expecting to form a bond with my bio one.

Adoption is a good option for people who want children and benefits children who do not have a loving family. This is why I don’t know how to feel about abortion. I truly believe that a woman has the right to control HER body. I think her right to terminate the pregnancy ends once a central nervous system has formed. Just like a mother does not have the right to infanticide, I don’t think she should do a late term abortion. As a gay liberal, I keep this thought to myself or anonymous message boards.

R146, that's a great story. It should be read by many. I am glad for you.

I don't know how we got to thinking adoption is harmful in this discussion. For some children depending on the circumstances of their early life and their individual adoptions then it may not be the optimal experience for a child but absent another option what else do you have?

I also understand your misgivings about abortion. I am pretty much an absolutist for a woman's right but I do have qualms over abortions for "convenience" sake (and those are very real and very high in numbers) or those where the fetus is not perfect - e.g., Down Syndrome - while I also understand wanting to abort in both those situations. Not every woman is ready to be a mother especially in difficult situations that could affect her entire life and the baby's in a disastrous way.

[quote]I don't know how we got to thinking adoption is harmful in this discussion.

I think it's because there are 1-2 posters here who have had unhappy experiences with being adopted and who cannot accept that other people's experiences may differ or that their personal negative experiences do not, in and of themselves, somehow prove that adoption is wrong.

A person can be very badly abused by a spouse, and the damage can remain and affect the rest of their lives even if they get divorced. Nothing about that situation is fake or invalid. But it doesn't mean marriage is in and of itself bad. Nor does the fact that some marriages are very happy mean marriage is in and of itself good. Some marriages are good, some are terrible, some are neither. None are, on their own, enough to assume anything about the inherent worth and value of marriage itself.

No one has dismissed the pain of anyone else in this thread (except Elder Lez and that terrible comment above). Differing experiences do not invalidate your own. I feel for anyone who has not been sufficiently loved or cared for by those whose job it was to love and care for them.

I disagree that adoption is not harmful, as I posted above. One's experience is one's experience, but the facts show a high proportion of adopted children end up addicted, incarcerated, suicidal, and unable to form lasting relationships. The fairy tale we want to believe is that adoptive parents rescue and love children as their own. That may happen, but more often than not, that even with "love" the outcome can be dark. As I wrote above, my husband, who is adopted, has worked hard to overcome his insecurity and deep abiding sense of abandonment. Of friends who have been adopted and children of friends who are adopted-- of whom I know many-- several suicides, a few heroin addictions, drug overdoses, as well as poor ability to form lasting relationships. My point is: if you're interested, look for the facts and be prepared that not all adoptions are happily ever after. Anecdotal evidence is just that. Children are cute when young and painful when drug-addicted and suicidal teens.

"I disagree that adoption is not harmful, as I posted above. "

What do you think is a better alternative, for children whose bio parents can't raise them? Orphanages?

As for high rates of addiction and mental problems among adoptees, I think that parental substance abuse or mental illness is a contributing factor, although right now it's impossible to say how much. Prenatal substance abuse can cause cognitive problems in the child, some forms of mental illness "have a genetic component", and adults who have substance abuse problems or serious mental illnesses are more likely to have children put up for adoption. Of course it's impossible to answer the question of how much the problems of adoptive children are hereditary or due to prenatal damage, and now much is due to the fact of adoption, but it's got to be part of the question.

R150, I’m convinced that substance abuse issues are caused by trauma in childhood .

Several YT videos from former foster children suggest that they were heavily medicated when they went to different foster homes.

a lot of kids are adopted from countries like Russia where there are a ton of orphans. Most of them were in orphanages and never touched or bonded with anyone. They grow up to be sociopaths. Also, many adoptees had mothers on drugs while pregnant.

Well I'm not convinced, R151. Some people take drugs because of trauma in early childhood, some people take drugs because they really like drugs, some people take drugs because their lives are so wretched they'll do anything to escape reality, some people take drugs because they have genuine chronic pain, some people take drugs because it's the only way to stay model-slim, etc. Substance abuse is a complex problem, with many causes and contributing factors and not just one.

The question of why so many adoptive children have problems is equally complex, and is as hard to answer as any other nature-vs-nurture question. How many of the problems are due to solely to adoption, and how many are due to genetic factors, parental substance abuse and other cognitive issues, pre-adoption abuse or neglect? Nobody can say, but all of those factors should be part of the discussion.

“ I think it's because there are 1-2 posters here who have had unhappy experiences with being adopted and who cannot accept that other people's experiences may differ or that their personal negative experiences do not, in and of themselves, somehow prove that adoption is wrong” r148

So what some of you are saying is damn the stats , damn the negative things some people have had, I think adoption works and if you don’t believe it your a bigot and your the one with the problem? Ok. Good to know where we stand.

What is your agenda r148? The reason there are so many links are because someone suggested that this was a Right Wing talking point, because again they don’t like hearing the bad stuff , only the good stuff.Links were posted so Studies could be shown backing up the idea that Adoption I s not always roses.

I get in America, you are fed constantly how good Adoption is. This is very much an American centric view. Many Western countries do not have these views.

The idea that all these babies are waiting for Adoption is laughable in that many adoptions occur in places like Russia, where Adoption can be an economic necessity.

I found Adoption to be a positive benefit to me personally, but not without cost. This thread is about Behavioural issues in Adoptees. You want a “ Adoption is amazing and anyone who disagrees with me is a fascist or mentally ill or has issues, please feel free to create that.

It is very usual on these threads to dismiss people’s pain as just a one off. You may think that, in fact go your hardest. I want to have a free and open discussion with other adoptees who can tell us how it really feels. This is normally not what happens because they are shut down by people who don’t want to hear about this.

This is important. So sorry.

1. None of those studies mention adoption. Literally none of them.

2. I haven't read a single comment arguing that "all adoption is inherently good" or invalidating or questioning those who have described their negative experiences (again, it was Elder Lez who did that, to another poster). I personally have gone out of my way (this is the third time now) to make it clear I do not question anyone's negative personal experience. Why would I? I don't have any agenda except, apparently, disagreeing that adoption is inherently bad. It's very bad form of you to interpret disagreement with one extreme position as the taking of the other extreme.

3. I'm not American.

4. Did you even read the conclusions of the linked studies? None of them even come close to proving that adoption is inherently bad for adopted children. None of them even mentions adoption or adopted babies.

5. The weird, obsessive insistence that people on this thread are trying to portray adoption as a fairytale (quote anyone doing that - again, disagreeing with "it's always a nightmare" doesn't taking up the "it's always a fairytale" position) is actually starting to smack of the trollishness mentioned that has been seen on other websites. There is no open-minded conversation to be had here and I won't comment further.

I had a friend who adopted her nephew when he was two. The sister-in-law was horribly abusive. My friend had two biological kids as well. She was a wonderful mother and loved Joey as much as her other two bio kids. the three kids were close and yet joey spent his life in and out of jail, on drugs, etc. He recently died of aids. I always found that really sad because Joey would do anything for you and he was basically a nice person. His mother said He was extremely terrified of Belts and even as an adult he was scared of them. My friend said the bio mother beat the shit out of him frequently and she worked hard to get him away from the mother. Joey really loved his aunt and hated his mother although he didn't have contact with her and the bio father was an Alki and didn't bother with him either. As much as he adored his aunt and adoptive sisters, he still turned out to be a sociopath. Really sad.

To clarify for the record I never said anything negative to any adopted poster on this thread. I made a negative comment to a non-adopted poster who invalidated the experiences of adopted persons. (Is there a term like "mansplaining" to describe how non-adopted people talk over and discount the experiences of adopted people? There probably ought to be.)

And R157, if Joey would do anything for you and was basically a nice person, he may have been an addict and a criminal, but he wasn't a sociopath.

R156 I am sorry that you feel like that. Adoptees talking about pain in a thread about behavioural issues in Adoptees is not trolling. Sorry. It is not.

The Catholic Church is fundamentally good and does amazing work and some of the sacrifices made by individuals in that Church to help othersdefies logic, but some Priests still diddle kids, fact. Does that make the whole institution bad? No . Does it mean it has issues? yes.

Fundamentally Adoption comes from a good place and I would say to be honest, at the moment there is no better option for many children. It is also an amazing experience. But I also think , by many comments, that people go into this with a fairy tale idea of all of this.

1. If there is no difference between a normal child and an adopted one, then why are adoptees rejected at a higher rate ? Surely if they are the same, the rejection rate is the same?

2. When people talk about Adoption they nearly always are discussing babies, yet the reality of Adoption is that the children that can be adopted, are that children. But not many people want a fully developed child, so because of Social welfare and readily available birth control, the option is Overseas. The ethics of paying thousands of dollars to get a child from another culture and bring it up as your own is one thing. But what happens if after spending thousands the child is a dud.?

The Dancing With The Stars guy adopted two kids. Will the kids write a scandalous tell all when they are adults?

R160, there's more to the story. The boys were subjected to homophobic taunts by.....a teacher. It became a huge controversy but the conservative Utah city they live in rallied to their defense. They covered their garage with paper hearts, all with notes of encouragement.

I think it's mostly genes. The kind of people who have babies and give them up aren't able to look after them for whatever reason (psychopathy, drug addiction, disability, etc..) In the past there were a lot more babies adopted out by unmarried mothers but now that stigma has gone plus there's birth control. So there are fewer 'normal' adopted babies now.

I think these kids/adults would have had the same problems (or worse) if they were raised by their birth parents.

R158 is probably not a full-blown sociopath but reading the traits he has at least four of the traits. He was so irresponsible and impulsive. But it all stemmed from horrible abuse. And the love of his aunt and cousins couldn't change the trajectory. He was only two when his aunt rescued him.