Miami Condo Collapse - Part 3

Continued discussion of the Marie Kondo collapse

I was waiting for that joke, R1

Thanks for christening the thread.

I'm just waiting for a Category 5 to make landfall in the middle of Miami Beach and see what happens to some of the more decrepit buildings.

Another chance blown at finally getting to see the bald spot on the back of Anderson's noggin someone on the first thread tantalized me with.

“IT STIRS EMOTION!!!”

I bet more evacuate rather than ride them out after witnessing this, r3

"IT'S BY THE OCEAN."

“GIRLS!!”

At least I picked up some hot guys in Miami

Absent the inevitable batshit-crazy occurrence, what is the respectable timeframe before we can resume lambasting the state of Florida and its denizens?

[QUOTE]Absent the inevitable batshit-crazy occurrence, what is the respectable timeframe before we can resume lambasting the state of Florida and its denizens?

Approximately thirty minutes after the buillding collapsed.

How soon before all of Florida disappears beneath the rising waves?

"SO BRING YOUR SUNTAN LOTION."

The weekend is over so Anderson went home. Face it, if this had happened in St. Louis or Milwaukee he’d never have bothered.

[quote]I'm just waiting for a Category 5 to make landfall in the middle of Miami Beach and see what happens to some of the more decrepit buildings.

Not Miami specifically but this happened in 2005 with Hurricane Wilma. Millions of people lost power for weeks and several dozen died, and it caused over $22 billion in damages.

An 11th body has been recovered and three men in their 50s identified as victims.

I hope no one is still living in the other part of the building that's still standing.

Thirty-six hours prior to the collapse, a pool contractor visited the building to provide an estimate for cosmetic restoration the pool and new equipment. He was shocked by the amount of cracked concrete, exposed rebar & standing water he observed in the garage/basement and took photographs to show to his supervisor.

The story (and photographs) are Miami Herald.com

"An 11th body has been recovered and three men in their 50s identified as victims."

Are any of them "confirmed bachelors"?

I also tried to link that story. Those images are ominous!

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Contractor's images:

r22 Thanks for posting those. Damn...

Yeah, I was unable to post links to Miami Herald articles as well.

Can someone analyze those photos for us? I don't really know what I am looking at, especially in the photo on the right.

Hard to tell, R25, unless you're in the field. It's obviously not pristine and clean down there. But I don't see anything like two feet of water on the floor.

What r25 said. That would be extra helpful.

Who wants to play the analyst/expert and who wants to play Anderson interviewing them?

Cracks in concrete, exposed rebar and wet floor in the pool equipment room of Champlain Towers South Condo, in photos taken just 36 hours before the building collapsed

There was nothing unusual about the lobby and pool area at Champlain Towers South condo, which looked clean and well maintained to a commercial pool contractor who visited the building last Tuesday, just 36 hours before half of the building unexpectedly collapsed. Then, he saw the basement-level garage.

“There was standing water all over the parking garage,” the contractor, who asked not to be named, told the Miami Herald. He noted cracking concrete and severely corroded rebar under the pool.

He also took photos, which he shared with the Herald.

The contractor visited the condo building last week to put together a bid for a cosmetic restoration of the pool as well as to price out new pool equipment — a small piece of the multimillion-dollar restoration project that just was getting underway at the 40-year-old building.

While he had worked in the industry for decades and had “gone in some scary places,” he said he was struck by the lack of maintenance in the lower level. The amount of water at Champlain Towers seemed so unusual that the contractor mentioned it to a building staff member, Jose, who was showing him around.

“He thought it was waterproofing issues,” the contractor said of the staff member. “I thought to myself, that’s not normal.” He said Jose told him they pumped the pool equipment room so frequently that the building had to replace pump motors every two years, but he never mentioned anything about structural damage or cracks in the concrete above.

The deepest puddle of standing water, according to the contractor, was located around parking spot 78 — an area that building plans show is located directly under the pool deck where in a 2018 inspection report, engineer Frank Morabito had flagged a “major error” in the original design that was allowing water intrusion and causing serious damage to the structural concrete slabs below.

He did not photograph that standing water because he was there to examine the pool and what was underneath it.

In the pool equipment room, located on the south side of the underground garage, the contractor saw another problem — exposed and corroding rebar in the concrete slab overhead. He snapped some pictures and sent them to his supervisor along with a note expressing concern that the job might be a bit more complicated than expected. He worried they would have to remove pool pipes to allow concrete restoration experts access to repair the slabs.

The building caved in two days later, before they had time to complete their bid.

“I wonder if this was going on in other parts of the building and caused this collapse,” he said.

CBS4’s Jim DeFede interviewed William Espinosa, a Champlain maintenance manager from the late 1990s, who said ocean saltwater would make its way into the underground garage — so much that “pumps never could keep up with it.”

Maxwell Marcucci, a representative for the Champlain Towers South condo association, declined to comment Monday on whether the association was aware of the issues the pool contractor noticed.

Mohammad Ehsani, an engineer and concrete restoration expert who invented QuakeWrap technology, a way to reinforce old concrete columns, reviewed the contractor’s photos from the pool equipment room.

“You can see extensive corrosion of the rebars at the bottom of the beam. That is very serious,” Ehsani said, commenting it was the worst damage he had seen documented in the building so far. The equipment room runs along the southern wall of the building — an area that did not collapse.

“If the condition of the beam in the pool guy’s photo is something that was also happening under the building, that is a really major concern,” Ehsani said. In that case, it “absolutely” could have contributed to the collapse.

However, he cautioned against rushing to conclude that all beams in the building showed similar levels of damage to those exposed to chemicals from the pool. The 2018 report that documented “severe” structural damage to concrete in the garage under the pool deck did not include photos of anything nearly as alarming as what the pool contractor documented, Ehsani said.

Either way, the damage in the photo should have been a concern.

Metadata on the photographs confirmed they were taken when the contractor said they were: the morning of June 22.

“In these buildings that are asymmetrical like this one, there is a possibility that if you have one part of the building that collapses, the building does some turning and twisting,” Ehsani said. “In this case, it is possible that a failure any place in this building could cause distortion to the frame of the building and could cause a collapse in any of the areas, not just adjacent to the failure.”

So what we are seeing, especially on the left, is corrosion and cracking. He did NOT take photos of the standing water (grrr)

"He did not photograph that standing water because he was there to examine the pool and what was underneath it."

Wait. Units are cracking and they are still living in them?

r31 Yep! fucking crazy, isn't it?

CONCRETES CLEANER!!!!

What was on their iPods?

[quote] Wait. Units are cracking and they are still living in them?

They've become crack houses.

On their IPODs:

They are asking family members to take DNA tests so they match up body parts.

"They are asking family members to take DNA tests so they match up body parts."

I could use a bigger penis.

Mia Mia Miami Beach…. 🏢 🔥 💨 💨

Actually, in the right hand picture at R22, you can see standing water -- look more closely. It's not much -- just little puddles -- but they are there. (see the reflection?)

Squished people ruin EVERYTHING!

They already had a show this year last week R41 not our problem they weren’t up at 1:30am to watch!

LESBIAN LUVUHS UV MAH-AM-EH

I hope Ivanka can smell the dead 💀

Did this trigger Themi yet or is there no room for recovery in this story?

These threads almost make up for the disappointing Everest year.

Irwin Allen here….so, I guess we have a movie?

R26 A diagram in the Miami Herald article mentioned by R18 upthread indicates that the deep water accumulated at a different location than the swimming pool pump room. The location is among some of the parking spaces, so maybe the cars parked there were the ones that would get lifted by the water and float.

R31 Tonight on CNN, they had an interview with a guy whose parents lived in this building. His mother mentioned at dinner with him Thursday that she’d been tired all day because the building was making so much noise creaking and cracking the night before (Wednesday) she couldn’t sleep! Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but it’s possible the building actually started breaking apart the day before, it just took a while for the whole thing to finally go. So, yea, I guess if your building is making so much noise you can’t sleep it’s time to get the hell out. I think Cassie mentioned the same thing on Thursday night…the noise woke her up and that is why she called her husband.

If I lived in one of the two other buildings, I'd absolutely take up the mayor's offer for a free hotel room, evacuate my cats, and spend the next 3 days with a U-haul emptying out my unit of anything I care about and moving it into storage somewhere.

The fact is, inspectors are going to go over both of those buildings with a fine-toothed comb over the next few weeks, and if they find ANY excuse to order the buildings' immediate evacuations, they'll do it in a heartbeat. Even if neither tower is REALLY in any genuine danger of collapse, or even any worse than hundreds of other 35-45 year old towers in Miami, I can almost guarantee that SOMEONE is going to order their immediate evacuations within the next few weeks, just so they can Look Like They're Doing Something. It's almost guaranteed to happen, and anyone who lives there needs to already be preparing for that possibility and getting their pets and stuff out NOW while they still can.

Another angle that hasn't really been explored yet... the possibility that the pool itself has a leak, and has possibly been leaking chlorinated water into the garage below for years. Chlorine is corrosive, too. When chlorinated water evaporates, the chlorine residue gets left behind. Add up years of chlorine residue, combine with rainwater infiltrating from the deck above re-dissolving it and getting absorbed into the concrete like a sponge (possibly, some distance away from the pool itself, as the water runs downhill and ponds at the garage's lowest point), and you have a smoking gun that's potentially even more insidiously destructive than saltwater from the storm surge of an occasional hurricane.

I agree. The whole structure will be condemned. They might even condemn the similar building that is nearby. How could you even sleep at night?

I can’t imagine if this was your primary residence and you survived.

One of the association's attorneys, Donna DiMaggio Berger, was on CNN tonight. She said that state law should mandate that notices to condo owners regarding critical repairs indicate that there may be consequences if residents vote to delay the assessment. She also said that its up to lawmakers to have more stringent standards for engineering companies who perform the inspections.

I agree with her on both points and Im glad she didn't sugar coat it. Bottom line, its on the owners to take action when there are warning signs, and the state will have develop a more rigorous vetting process for companies who are authorized to do the inspections for these type buildings. The associations will usually pick the least expensive option and it may not be in their best interest.

Champlain Towers and caviar dreams!

R51 “How can you sleep at night…” indeed! Agreed, I’d get the hell out. This is exactly the scenario for why everyone should have an emergency savings fund even if it’s only a couple of thousand dollars.

[quote] Champlain Towers and caviar dreams!

Now, it's Champlain Tower and cadaver dreams!

B53 First, the condo’s attorney tried playing to emotions; now she’s deflecting attention to the state. She’s being paid to defend the condo and it’s board, but I don’t think she has a good enough case and is doing all the forms of deflection she can muster. There’s no question in the law that the operations of a condo are the fiduciary responsibility of the board members. I should know because I’ve been one for 19 years .

^^ R53 not B53

[quote] They might even condemn the similar building that is nearby. How could you even sleep at night?

The poor people in the North Tower. Now, every time they notice a crack or see a puddle of water or hear a strange noise, they'll be thinking, "Is this it? Is the building about to collapse?" Even the slightest of things will send them panicking and racing out of the building at lightning speed.

R57 Oh, dear. Its not it’s. This is a masturbatory “Oh, dear” because I’m the poster who made the error.

r57 yes she was well prepared to deflect as that is her profession. But what she said ultimately is what the rest of us in Florida condos will be up against in the future. Im sure there will be sweeping changes to the state and county laws in the coming years because of this and what she said will likely be the basis of the the changes.

It seems like condo board was not really told about the key finding from 2018. Someone just told the board that the building was in great shape and didn’t highlight the major problems. I feel bad for the owners (dead or alive) because they weren’t given good information. Get out!

They also were greedy - adding a nine feet penthouse that was not originally planned to be supported.

Hopefully since Miami-Dade has been declared a disaster area because of this incident, the people in the other building can get a FEMA check and get the hell up out of there.

If this happened in August or September with a hurricane passing over the rest of the building would likely come down with the strong winds and the recovery would take even longer.

R62 There appear to be two 2018 reports that have surfaced from the engineering firm that did the inspection. My understanding is that one was in the possession of a board member in 2018 and they forwarded it to either the town or state. That report warned of exponentially increasing damage if the condo didn’t act then to remedy structural issues. Another inspection report allegedly from 2018 mysteriously appeared recently, I think after the collapse, stating there was no need to do anything right away. Something strange is going on.

Yeah. They were a mess. Adding weight on top and ignoring cracks in the foundation.

R47 We already had a mini-series!

R67, That doesn’t mean we aren’t going to have a MAJOR MOTION PICTURE release based on the TRUE LIFE events that occurred in Florida these last several days!

R65 (continuing) So we’ve had “deflect” from the attorney and “downplay” from whoever came up with the second 2018 inspection report. I’m waiting for “deny.” Florida is a microcosm of Trumpism.

Yes, all while evil Mutant Mitch tries to sabotage infrastructure funding!

Isn’t it odd that there is only one security camera showing the collapse? That silent footage is really disturbing but imagine if there was none. It’s symbolic of American greed, collapse and ignoring warning signs.

NEDRA VOLZ NUDE!!!

FWIW, the condo belonging to (former) board treasurer, Maggie Manrara -- to whom the 2018 Morabito Consultants report was addressed -- sold on April 1st, according to Zillow.

R72 She sold just in time to not pay the special assessment. You can sell, but you can’t always hide. She may need to get lawyered up.

Has Melania visited the site and provided comfort to those in pain?

R74 She’s on-site but only to hold the box the searchers put jewelry in.

In R22 s photos you can see standing water in the photo on the left, in both photos io the upper areas you can see water stains and what looks like mold.

[quote] Florida is a microcosm of Trumpism.

It’s really looking like that is the case.

Trump and his children all have Taken residence in the “low lying” state. Even Josh Kushner and his family moved there.

With Florida’s pugnacious Trump-Loving Governor, it’s now become a swampland full of some of the most regressive US policies.

[quote] It’s symbolic of American greed, collapse and ignoring warning signs.

Indeed.

The imagery could not be more apt: the sinking swampland is engulfing the lives of its inhabitants; and those that decried “Drain the Swamp!” have literally increased its reach: with reverberations throughout the US and world.

The Trumps sll moved to Florida because it is one of the few states that don't allow your primary residence to be seized to satisfy Bankruptcy debts.

^ Court awarded judgments or Bankruptcy debts. The thruple who murdered Robert Wone did the same thing.

FL is a haven for tax evaders, deadbeat dads, alimony avoiders, people with a troubled legal history, druggies and people who need to "start over", and political loons. that and oppressive heat and humidity and giant bugs

[quote] people who need to "start over"

This.

It's like no one has a past.

OJ too. He won the criminal case but didn't he then move to Florida before the civil suits started?

Standing Water💧is the new Covid 19

reclaimed land 🌊RECLAIMED 🌊

I read that they skirted building codes to add a penthouse!

R80 It's TRUE!

Thank you R67! This is wonderful. I love the scenes with the dog. And with Nedra Volz!!! And, yes, the depiction of condo board meetings is pretty accurate.

Florida resident, condo owner and former president of my condo association. Condo boards (and by extension, condo owners) are much happier spending money on cosmetic issues than on structural ones. Granted, the elevators needed to be replaced in our building, but once the samples for the tile surround and the lighting fixtures had to be decided on, they were ready to sign on the dotted line. A year later, when we needed to replace the heat pump for our AC tower, you'd have thought we were selling their grandkids to sex traffickers. So, two years was enough of that madness. Never again.

This isn't our land. We owe it respect or it will destroy us. I won't cut down a branch from a tree without first talking to it and apologizing.

Our rent is due.

R37 comes to the rescue with the “breaking news” we heard about as far back as thread one.

WTG, Cronkite!

Prof. Richard Wolff spells it out for you.

And like clockwork, The Guardian chimes in with an alarmist article about climate change.

[quote] I read that they skirted building codes to add a penthouse!

And guess who moved into the penthouse? A lawyer who "specializes in representing building owners, contractors and developers who run afoul of city codes and regulations." And now she's dead. Oh, the irony.

I find it hard to believe that the penthouse (top floor apartments) was something tacked on at the last minute. Obviously, mistakes were made, but the penthouse floor is usually part of the plan. I.e., creating premium space on the top floor of a multi-floor structure.

An article I read last week said that the engineers/architects went back and made changes to the original building plans after the decision to add the penthouse.

Interview with an attorney who lost his mother and grandmother in the collapse.

[quote]“When you’d go to the building, you’d see cracks in the pool deck, water in the garage, you’d see the paint they’d painted and it’d be chipping,” Rodriguez said, “but nothing I thought that would make the building collapse, otherwise none of us would be there.”

Developers of collapsed Florida building reportedly sidestepped codes, added penthouse

The Champlain Towers South in Surfside was designed to have 12 stories in 1981, but developers got local officials to sign off on a last-minute addition — a penthouse level that added 15 feet and violated local height restrictions, the Wall Street Journal said in a report Monday.

It is unclear if the addition of the penthouse contributed to the collapse of the building four decades later, the Wall Street Journal said.

But veteran Miami mechanical engineer Tom Henz said it was typical at the time for developers to try to work around height restrictions, and often failed to consult engineers on the changes.

“If you go back to the ’60s and ’70s, South Florida was a Wild West,” he said.

The revelation comes as rescue workers comb through the rubble following the collapse of the building early Thursday — killing at least 10 and leaving more than 150 still unaccounted for.

Roberto Leon, a professor of construction engineering at Virginia Polytechnic Institute, said additional weight from the penthouse at the Champlain condo tower was accounted for in a revised design.

But, Leon added, columns and reinforcements in the design were typical for that time — although Florida strengthened those requirements in recent years.

If the columns were to fail, Leon said the roof could have limited capacity to distribute the weight and the entire structure could collapse, the outlet said.

Manuel Jurado, an engineer who worked on the Champlain project, maintained there were no flaws in the design — and if there were they would’ve surfaced earlier.

“If there was a major error, it would have surfaced within a year or two,” he said.

The added penthouse to the collapsed building was approved by Surfside’s then-mayor, Mitchell Kinzer, the Journal said, citing a Miami Herald report at the time.

Kinzer, however, said Sunday that he could not recall the specifics.

Developers cherish penthouses atop the beach front buildings because they add value — one at the Champlain Towers South sold last month for $2.9 million, the outlet said.

In a report this weekend, The Washington Post reported that the building’s developers were also accused at the time of paying off local officials to get permits for the site.

Among the principals of the firm was Nathan Reiber, a Polish-born Canadian who fled to Florida after being accused of evading taxes in Canada.

He later returned and paid a $60,000 fine to settle the case.

Now the Surfside mayor is giving the families even more false hope by bringing up the woman in Bangladesh who was rescued seventeen days after a factory collapse.

He failed to mention that there were huge pockets in the rubble and she was able to move around enough to scavenge cookies, dried fruit, and bottled water. She made the food last for 15 days and still had water left when she was rescued.

She made cookies last 15 days?!

I’m lucky with 15 seconds when I buy my Chips Ahoy!

Pancake by the Ocean, the new song from the Miami Pound It Down Machine. (Darlings, I couldn't help myself.)

[quote]She made the food last for 15 days and still had water left

Why is this collapse different from all other collapses?

One of the cats left behind during the evacuation has been confirmed to be alive. Coco was spotted via drone moving around in her owner's apartment (#405, northwest corner of building). Using a cherry-picker, firefighters placed food & water on the balcony for her yesterday (the door is open). No word on Mia, Susan Alvarez's cat, in #1005.

Yay, Coco!

I am NOT bothered by this news.

Joe and Jill will be visiting Surfside on Thursday.

[quote] Why is this collapse different from all other collapses?

I would guess because it came down so quickly, pancake-like. A building that falls in an earthquake probably falls differently.

Bless your heart, r105

Why don't they rescue Coco? Poor Kitty.

[quote] Coco was spotted via drone moving around [bold]in her owner's apartment[/bold]

Well….

They need to bring in this guy...

At some point they are going to have to stop telling these families they are hoping for miracles and tell them the cold hard truth.

On all other nights, buildings pancake or matzah. On this night, only matzah.

The owner of the buildings should be thinking of setting up grief counseling resources on his dime.

You don’t know how condominiums work, do you?

Hint: There is no “owner of the building.”

"FL is a haven for tax evaders, deadbeat dads, alimony avoiders, people with a troubled legal history, druggies and people who need to "start over", and political loons. that and oppressive heat and humidity and giant bugs"

... and new York transplants.

Florida is a cesspool.

Well, that certainly is shitty. I feel for the victim's loved ones.

Was this cat in the non-collapsed part? I understand that evacuations were done quickly but seriously you can't stash a cat in your purse or backpack or in your pocket?

They must have known what animals were in the building - have they noted what animals were in the collapsed portions?

Did we lose any dogs?

Yeah, because cats that have survived a collapse of a fucking building are oh so friendly and anxious to approach strangers.

And the fact that he may not be accessible by humans yet never occurred to you, huh? They already noted they needed a cherry picker to leave it food. What makes you think they can get a human up there to get him right now?

R107, the remaining part of the building is too unstable for anyone to enter at this point. In fact, they had to stop search operations on one section of the pile because debris keeps falling off the building.

Well what, R108?

I'm talking about at the time they were evacuating. Wouldn't you pick yo your cat yourself and take it with you?

[quote] Well what, R108?

Well, I would hardly consider the cat walking around “in the apartment” that doesn’t exist.

Is it Schrödinger’s cat?

Soft Kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur….

At least now we know who was making calls from the landline.

Do tall buildings ever fall like waffles, or is it always pancakes?

it depends where the problem is

Yes, r125, and they look like the waffles my mother used to make.

[quote] At least now we know who was making calls from the landline.

“Bitch, where my Meow Mix at?”

R117, Coco & Mia were in the part of the building that did not collapse (apartments #405 & #1005, respectively).

And for anyone asking "Why didn't they take their cats?" Have any of you ever tried to find & catch a terrified cat in a dark, shaking building? Good fucking luck! At the first sign of shaking, both those cats dove under the nearest piece of furniture and were NOT coming out.

There are no more bodies, just pulverized remains.

They need to lift those ladies up to their condos so they can lure those kitties out.

R129, I bet those cats knew something up long before any people did.

Dogs always flee with their owners, R117. You can rely on them in critical moments .

[quote] Using a cherry-picker, firefighters placed food & water on the balcony for her yesterday

And I’ll bet if Coco didn’t care for the brand, he would’ve walked away with a flounce.

[quote] Dogs always flee with their owners, [R117]. You can rely on them in critical moments .

You betcha. Cause dogs are there to take care of you and make sure you're alright. I am so not a cat person.

I think if any dogs survived the collapse they'd be barking for help. Not prank calling the grandkids to freak them out.

Are you Sara Palin?

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

You betcha. My dog and I can still see Russia from my front porch. He barks at them every night.

They're all dead, right? I mean, what is the chance of survival? Heartless, but trying to be realistic.

I'm crushed. That blue art deco building next door I adore is a time share hotel. I visited their website and it is really in such a lovely setting. I could see wanting to live on that stretch of the beach. It says it's permanently closed now. I also took a google drive-by on a real estate site.

On second thought if it reopens then I could visit it. But some of those guests looked rather hillbillyish - no offense to any hillbillies in residence here. I'm sure they were lovely people.

[quote] I'm crushed.

You're not the only one.

[quote] I'm crushed.

You ain’t alone, honey.

[quote] Florida is a microcosm of Trumpism.

Peculiar thing to say about the most faithfully democratic stronghold in Florida.

Jinx, r141!

Buy me a coke.

R117, I read that there was one dog known to be in the collapsed portion (and presumed dead). She belonged to the Gonzalez family in #904. Angela Gonzalez & her daughter, Deven, were rescued from the rubble in the first hours after the collapse, but there has been no sign of Mr. Gonzalez or the dog (Daisy).

Nedra Volz was a stupid name. I don’t care if the actress was an old lady.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa for my heartless choice of words.

I still like that blue building.

She was no Judith Lowry, r146.

Nedra Volz is a great name and she has the look of a Dl icon

Damn Im glad this cutie made it out 😍

He lives with his mom on the first floor who woke up the entire family and told them to get out asap when she saw the pool caving in.

yasssss

of what fucking relevance is the guy's ethnicity/religion?

What a morsel! Thanks mom!

Another eyewitness to the pool caving in, too.

r152 Take it up with the Times of Israel, asshole.

He is ugly. The U Chicago student was much cuter.

R150, Thank God his circumcised cock was spared.

Wow, pays to be a night owl and on the first floor (read article at R150). Collapse happened at 1:30 a.m. Guy's mom must have been up late or a light sleeper.

I'd like a photo or diagram of the location of his apartment, please. TIA.

He has nice skin.

Another hottie spared . . .

I keep reading ‘condo collapse’ as ‘Columbo episodes.’ Wish I could fixed my cheeseburger brain.

r158 yes his skin is glowing and tan, his eyebrows are perfect too

Is there an odor of decomposition at the site?

R158

R164, thank you so much. I'll bet that was considered a less desirable location too close to the pool.

Onlyfans to help the victims families would be the right thing to do

[R152] Take it up with the Times of Israel, asshole.

I think therein lies the answer, asshole

His little hat is perched so delicately on his hairdo.

well given that jewish space lasers brought the building down, only fitting that jewish superpowers spared this guy

New lawsuit filed. It's class action.

r164 Super helpful! I can't get my bearings worth shit without these kinds of graphics.

Where is Coco the cat located?

I would’ve loved to have seen nedra volz and Judith Lowry rim and eat each other out!

Agree r166!

He's got BDF for days.

I still can't comprehend how so many framed prints/photographs remained hanging on the walls of numerous units after the collapse.

R166, Definite husband material.

The photographs showing things hanging on walls were from earlier and from similar apartments. After the collapse, there were no walls.

The mayor is on with Don Lemon, doubling down on his statements that people are possibly still alive:

"I'm not really worried that it would be false hope. I think that we have an obligation and a duty to bring those people out of the rubble and reunite them with their families. And I think that sort of wringing our hands about whether it's right or wrong, I think that's not productive."

[Quote] The owner of the buildings should be thinking of setting up grief counseling resources on his dime.

AARGH!

I feel better now.

R176, No way. I'm talking about the photos taken after the collapse. One can clearly see appliances nearly intact and framed prints still hanging on the walls.

I'm sure there's an international standard/protocols for how long recovery continues after disasters. You can't give up until the very last hope is extinguished. It would be the same anywhere in the world. At the same time, an article I read suggested the city officials are being a lot more candid in private with the families of the victims.

The Wall Street Journal has the best coverage and the best comments, in my opinion.

Can you bring a few snippets over here r180?

After 9/11, the rescue mission at Ground Zero didn't change over to a recovery mission until 13 days later, on September 24, 2001.

I think the officials will follow this same timeline, two weeks, since 9/11 pretty much set the precedent for every modern disaster. Everyone knows the chances are practically near zero now, but its more about respecting the families grieving process and allowing them time to come to terms with it. You cannot diminish their hope too soon.

The BDF is epic r173

We can share r183 and comfort him as he nakedly works through his survivor's guilt

You can read the WSJ story and some of the comments at the link.

That kid's take is hair-raising! He said they saw cars going into the parking garage as the building was collapsing! Shit!

So glad his mom was up and they all ran out. Damn! What a narrow escape!

Tasteful Friends, did you know the building next door is by Renzo Piano?

That headboard mounted to the remaining wall freaks me out. The rest of the bed is gone...

[quote]I'm sure there's an international standard/protocols for how long recovery continues after disasters.

There isn't. It's on a case-by-case basis, taking all factors into account. The fact that there has been rain is the only thing keeping this going.

The UN traditionally goes into recovery mode at around one week when no one has been found alive within the previous 24-48 hours, but that isn't a rule. It's just how they've done things in the past.

R171, this is the front of the building from Collins Ave. Coco is in #405, circled in magenta. Mia, the tabby, is in #1005, circled in yellow. (note: there are no penthouse units on the front /west section of the building)

R190 Thank you SO much!

Has Mia been spotted alive or is she considered to be...in Cassie's situation, shall we say?

His mom Sara Nir is on CNN right now with John Berman, good lord his father must be a GOD because mom looks like she lives under a bridge! But God bless her for having such a hot son!

I'm *seriously* ready to go protest on the sidewalk near the tower with a sign demanding the immediate rescues of Coco and Mia. It's absurd. We all know that there's almost zero chance that anybody is still alive under the rubble. On the other hand, there's at least two cats who were alive and healthy 4 days ago (one of whom was confirmed to be alive today) who could die at any instant if the building collapses, and in the meantime, are unquestionably terrified and confused. At least one of them (Coco) hasn't had food or water in 4 days.

Seriously, if nothing else, rescuing the two cats would at LEAST give the media SOME happy news to report tomorrow. Instead of starting the news with images of more shrouded bodies getting loaded onto a truck, they could start by showing the cats' owners joy and relief when their kitties are safe and reunited with them.

If they're worried about risking the lives of first responders, fine. Allow the cats' owners to go in and get them, or ask for volunteers. And yes, I'd be the first to volunteer. I'm not oblivious to the possibility that the building might collapse while I'm in it, but I'm comfortable with the remote likelihood of it actually happening during the ~5 minutes it would take to get in, rescue a cat, and get out.

Agreed, R193. Someone needs to go and save those cats!

Are the cats in the tower that's still standding?

r195, yes.

Wow, so two cats for sure! I had heard about Coco but somehow missed out on Mia.

I agree r193. If I was near there I would join you.

Get some kid who's light, but strong, not afraid of heights and is good with cats. He/she could get into the cherry picker, get raised on up there, armed with sedative laden Temptations, tease out Coco. Then stuff Coco in their climbing pack and return via cherry picker.

Do the same for Mia with whatever adjustments needed.

I think it's not only the right thing to do, but it might also be that thing I hear about from time to time. Heart something.

Heartwarming, that's it.

If someone complained about "diverting resources", you could point out that statistically, at least 3 or 4 of the missing would hand a kitty who was in the rubble with them to rescuers and insist upon it being taken to safety FIRST... and those complainers KNOW it.

#saveCoco #saveMia

They're CATS. Coco can just jump to the street below and Mia can make her way down via the balconies.

Are these "special" cats cause they don't seem very bright.

r199, NO, they CAN'T. A cat who falls 4 stories is almost as likely to get injured as an infant falling the same distance. Would you drop an INFANT 4-10 stories? Of course not.

Cats can get badly injured from falls, too.

^--- Whoops, broken URL. Here's the updated one.

You're welcome, R191. (I need visuals/maps/diagrams, too). Unfortunately, Mia has not been spotted yet. Which could mean nothing, other than she simply hasn't been near the balcony doors when the drone has been flying around. More problematic....the cherry-picker on the firetruck cannot reach the 10th floor, so they are unable leave food & water for Mia on the balcony, as they did for Coco.

So, things aren't looking so great for Mia, UNLESS she has found some water up there. (healthy cats can go over a week without food; Mia is only 4 years old). I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility. Given the tremendous amount of shaking that survivors described, it's possible that some water pipes broke, or a toilet was dislodged, or a washing machine was dislodged from its connection -- leaving water on the floor. Similarly, refrigerator doors often swing open during large earthquakes & items fall out. Milk, OJ, etc.

I also read that when the firefighters made a sweep of the standing portion, post-collapse (to make sure everyone was out), they left all the front doors open -- which is standard procedure. So, it's also possible that Mia could be wandering around on the 10th floor looking for water/food in neighboring units (and found some).

You never know with cats. The "Nine lives" expression exists for a reason. They can be incredibly resilient -- even the pampered, indoor "scaredy" cats (as Mia's owner described her). I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Mia, and mostly her owner Susana. Her guilt about leaving Mia behind is just heart wrenching. #SaveMia

r202 You are a doll. Thanks for clearing it up. Fingers crossed for Mia to be both safe and resourceful.

Coco is already a diva, so she certainly has a home here.

Can't a drone drop food and water on the 10th floor?

Well, no obviously they can't....or they would have done so already. Are you stupid or sumthin?

How do you know a heavy duty drone can't be brought in for an attempt? Why must you be such a mother fucking cunt? Is it your genetic destiny to shame yourself?

I’m kind of obsessed with the gorgeous, ultra luxury condominium next door designed by Renzo Piano. What a gorgeous building.

Yes, that what it is -- you've "got" me, R206! Do tell -- what is my "genetic destiny" that I have shamed myself with? I can't wait to hear! Fucking wacko.

WHY AREN'T THEY SEARCHING THE CABINS FOR MIA AND COCO?? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!! CHECK THE CABINS NOW!!!

R187, several articles I've read suggested that the construction of that Renzo condo next door - including demo of the previous bldg - may have contributed to the collapse; perhaps it accelerated the demise since the condo was so poorly maintained?

Are the dogs 🐕 purposely ignoring the cats’ cries for help??

[quote]Coco can just jump to the street below and Mia can make her way down via the balconies.

Oh get over your cheap selves. We've been hanging around the kitchen at the Fontainebleu since Monday morning.

May we please have a moment of silence for Daisy, the dog presumed deceased?

Recent article on construction of the neighboring condo... (Renzo's with a 'z')

Cue twilight zone theme music. I can’t stop thinking about this.

[quote]Cracks in concrete, exposed rebar and wet floor in the pool equipment room of Champlain Towers South Condo,

Isn’t this fairly common? I'd be scared shitless if I lived in any of their properties.

CNN had on a woman who lost her father a couple of months ago to COVID and now her mother in this collapse. I mean...how much can a person take? CHRIST

R200 “Would you drop an INFANT 4-10 stories? Of course not.”

Well, about THAT…

This is the most extensive and scary story yet:

Floor by Floor, the Missing People and Lost Lives Near Miami

The death toll will rise since in many units the status of the occupants are unknown.

[quote] Would you drop an INFANT 4-10 stories?

You’d ask that on DL?

You may not like the answer.

Sorry, R220, we do not care about humans. We must center saving the CATS. They led the way by being the first to recognize the building shake - they leave it to the dogs to warn humans, but still the cats were the FIRST to know.

I must protest those well meaning but simple minded suplicants who foolishly believe a CAT cannot maneuver down from a 4th story apartment balcony.

Don't they have those canons that shoot T shirts - shove some cat food and ice in one.

13 floors of concrete. A firefighter said this was worse than 9/11

The Times' diagram at R219 oddly doesn't include newly minted DL hottie Gabriel Nir and his family, who escaped.

Any information on Daisy (breed, age, vaccinations)?

[quote]Would you drop an INFANT 4-10 stories?

Oh the stories I could tell!

[quote]Would you drop an INFANT 4-10 stories?

Please, I got caught up in the excitement of the moment! I would never intentionally endanger the lives of my children!

Does anyone know Florida real estate disclosure laws pertaining to condos?

Such as: 1) There was a 2018 report supplied to the HOA board members - was it released to residents?

2) In the 3 years after the report, I assume residents heard of the phenomenal assessment. But if the assessment wasn’t levied yet, could a condo seller not even mention it?

Damn, it doesn’t look like Gavriel Nir is on Instagram.

I am not a condo owner but I can confirm that disclosure is required. If their is something wrong or deficient needing repair it needs to be disclosed, for example previous sink hole activity or repair to the foundation etc..

An inspection is generally required unless you sell as is and the buyer has cash.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

you can drop cats from great heights, no problem, they fall out from tall trees and are fine.

[quote]I am not a condo owner but I can confirm that disclosure is required. If their is something wrong or deficient needing repair it needs to be disclosed, for example previous sink hole activity or repair to the foundation etc.

You're exactly right, R230. But what does it matter?

The principal asset of the corporation that owns that building is undoubtedly going to be the building itself and any insurance it might have. Well, the building is now shot to hell. Absolutely worthless, save for the land it sits on... if that is deemed to be suitable for construction. So don't plan on being made whole that way. And is the amount of insurance required by law... in Florida... going to be enough to make anyone whole? It will be interesting to see if real estate lobbyists in Tallahassee have whittled that down to keep premiums and potential pay outs as low as possible.

The requirement to recertify a residential building structure every 40 years seems pretty thin. In 40 years, a lot of degradation of a building can occur, enough that it might not be economically feasible to make the needed repair. This building seems to have reached a point of being not habitable, but not affordably fixable, either. None of those well-to-do condo owners are going to face being ruined without initiating lengthy litigation which will drag on until... the building collapses? They go broke if the units cannot be freely resold for full market price because of recertification problems, so that needs to be kept flimsy and ineffective. They go broke if they undertake the expense of making the repairs and the value of the apartments is diminished because of a huge loan obligation that future buyers will have to pay. Or people are killed when the fucker collapses. The real estate industry would not like any of these choices, so I suspect their lobbyists have been insulating the key players for decades. Which all sets the stage for what just happened with this building. NONE of the current regulatory protections or market forces protected anyone that night or in the lead up to it.

It's early, but I suspect we are going to see a circular firing squad of attorneys for the estates of the many, many, people who died in this building. There can't possibly be enough money available to compensate the families of all the people killed in this fancy sea side tenement. Not that appropriate payouts would help any of them.

[quote] US Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm has suggested that climate change could have caused the deadly condo collapse in Miami's Surfside neighborhood, where researchers say the sea level has risen up to eight inches over the past 40 years.

How very cynical of her to even go there. Badly done, Jennifer, badly done.

R233, the individual owners' insurance policies will cover the losses to them. Any residual insurance policies can be split between the estates of the dead.

Does Florida have a cap on pain and suffering and claims other than actual damages?

The reality is without the pain and suffering etc the actual damages to survivors is limited. Most of the elderly weren't supporting their families, if an entire family died then who are the survivors dependent upon them.

There just doesn't seem to be enough money available for huge settlements or awards for all the deceased and survivors. I'd rather see survivors assisted in getting new housing - for some of them it may not be easy to buy another home especially if retired or elderly. The state needs to help them.

This would be very expensive litigation and if done on a contingency fee there will be many lawyers who may think it's not worth it.

From the article linked above:

[quote]Granholm was asked by CNN on Tuesday if climate change could have played a part in the tragic collapse of the Champlain Towers South condo building, which suddenly crumbled around 1.30am last Thursday. 'Obviously, we don't know fully, but we do know that the seas are rising,' Granholm replied.

CNN raised the matter. Not Granholm. She has to answer and seems really to have been judicious in her answer.

R234 is parroting the Fox News line.

I like how the Daily Mail turns Granholm's tentative, realistic answer into some kind of cynical exploitative move. And R234 takes the bait. R234 = Betsy DeVos?

Fuck off, R237. Some things should be left out of politics while the bodies are still in the wreckage. Granholm comes off as an amateur.

[quote]The principal asset of the corporation that owns that building is...

Rose, a corporation does NOT own the building....its owned by the residents who bought condos in it.

What should her answer have been, r239?

R233 I agree with your post.

When purchasing real estate you are taking on a risk because a disclosure may not include unknown issues and in the end it’s entirely up to seller to disclose the truth. Inspections are also not fully reliable, I can personally attest to that.

Insurance is every Florida homeowners nightmare because there is a lack of insurers that drive up the rates and is some cases people need to go through the state sponsored insurer who is truly the last resort because it’s very expensive for minimal coverage.

People have been forced to sell their homes or go without insurance because of the high rates.

In this case the inspections did not initially point to imminent doom which likely delayed critical repairs.

I think condos and any shared type of similar property needs some regulation that extends beyond recertification.

There needs to be more transparency and accountability in disclosing to potential buyers that the maintenance costs can increase drastically either though assessments, insurance rates or future maintenance repairs that can effectively leave you bankrupt, you would think this is common sense but then here we are.

[quote] Fuck off, [R237]. Some things should be left out of politics while the bodies are still in the wreckage. Granholm comes off as an amateur.

Not the poster you’re replying to R239, but think YOU are wildly off base.

Granholm was addressing a question she was asked.

Florida’s sinking swampland is no secret to anyone...especially those in the scientific community.

Climate change is an issue that’s having significant consequences as we speak. (Just check in with those in the PNW without AC right now.)

R240, nice try with the snark. Total fail on your facts.

In a condominium building, the purchaser owns only the interior, while the building itself is owned by a condominium corporation. The corporation is jointly owned by all the owners and charges them fees for general maintenance and major repairs.

^ If you’re going to lift from Wikipedia verbatim, at least give credit R244.

R239 thinks that mention of scientifically accepted facts, even in response to a question about it, is "political." So R239 = R234 IS parroting the Fox (and Republican) party line. Maybe she IS Betsy DeVos???

[quote]^ If you’re going to lift from Wikipedia verbatim, at least give credit [R244].

It was clearly written and I edited it slightly to make it even clearer.

Now, are the facts laid out there wrong, R245?

[quote] If their is something wrong or deficient

Oh, dear!

Okay thanks for replies but they do not specifically answer my questions. The main ones being:

1) was a repair assessment broadcast to owners after 2018 and are they required by law to share it to a potential buyer?

2) was a repair assessment levied after 2018 and do the condo sellers have to disclose it?

Back in the day I sold an HOA house in Colorado. There were a bunch of questions I had to answer about lawsuits against the HOA. I just wrote “I don’t know.” Sale went through.

[quote] What should her answer have been, R239?

How about something along the lines of, “I have no idea what made this particular building collapse. I’m confident they have experts trying very hard to figure out what it was and, when their investigation is complete, we’ll know more. Until then, I don’t want to speculate as to a possible cause.”

That's what she said, R250.

No, that’s obviously not what she said if people are attributing her saying it was climate change that caused it.

[quote] No, that’s obviously not what she said if people are attributing her saying it was climate change that caused it.

Fox News and their ilk are the only ones saying that. What she actually said is quoted at R236.

"people are attributing" = "people are saying" = "I heard it on Fox" = Bullshit

She also said, “We'll have to wait to see what the analysis is for this building, but the issue about resiliency and making sure we adapt to this changing climate, that's going to mean levees need to be built, sea walls need to be built, infrastructure needs to be built,' Granholm said.

I’m not defending anyone who thinks she “blamed” this on climate change, since she obviously didn’t, but she did bring it up.

"people are saying" is Donald Trump's favorite ploy.

That should be all you need to know about it.

[quote] but she did bring it up.

No. You are lying. The CNN interviewer brought it up. Granholm addressed the question and while doing so did not attribute the building failure to any cause.

Is she wrong? Christ we're just twiddling our thumbs up our asses while we could be fortifying our coastlines like the Dutch. Instead we just accept that Miami is going to flood every time it rains.

[quote] McNoldy told the outlet that higher sea levels increase the frequency of high-tide floods in the Miami area which can cause devastating damage to buildings as salt water destroys infrastructure. 'I don't think I need to be an engineer to conclude this, but any time things are submerged in saltwater, it becomes harsh on them — it doesn't matter what that material is,' McNoldy said. . . Granholm said "We'll have to wait to see what the analysis is for this building, BUT the issue about resiliency and making sure we adapt to this changing climate . . ."

Sorry but within the context of the discussion at that moment , her comments were easily linked to the collapse of buildings. The appropriate comment by Granholm would be to specifically say it is NOT appropriate for me to comment on the cause of the building collapse. That is yet to be investigated and I would not want you to improperly infer anything from my comments. Next question.

See how simple that is. Hopefully she'll get better at how she deals with the press.

You do not want to unnecessarily instill unwarranted fear for others living in that area. Her job is not to panic people.

[quote]Her job is not to panic people.

That's not her job; it's to answer the question in a realistic way. Anyone who's "panicked" at this point by the consequences of rising sea levels in Miami (or anywhere) is a right-wing snowflake idiot who's been living with their head up their ass for the past three decades.

But keep fucking that chicken.

Maybe a little panic would get people moving in the right direction.

[quote] You do not want to unnecessarily instill unwarranted fear for others living in that area. Her job is not to panic people.

Nope. Not her job to “not panic people”. Where do you get this stuff?

Not a matter of fear. It is a matter of what is happening before our very eyes.

Quit with the crap, R259.

If people can’t see what’s occurring in Florida and other places around the world, they don’t need to be coddled by those like yourself who don’t want to acknowledge the true situation where individuals are DYING as a result of ground shifts.

Panicking people without a ready solution is not the answer. Do we really want everyone living in condos along a beach - that beach - to be terrified and worry that their building will collapse?

That building did not collapse because of rising sea level in that area. it collapsed because someone didn't do their job. Otherwise, every building in Venice would have collapsed by now.

And Granholm's answer, no matter what you or the Daily Mail say, was clear on that very point, addressing the questioner's reference to climate change as a general background issue.

[quote]Do we really want everyone living in condos along a beach - that beach - to be terrified and worry that their building will collapse?

Sure. Why not? Get them angry enough to wake up and demand real action to address this problem. Building sea walls around all of Florida might not be feasible. Maybe some of these people need to be angry enough to leave their aging beach front high rises, if only to save their own lives.

[quote] Panicking people without a ready solution is not the answer. Do we really want everyone living in condos along a beach - that beach - to be terrified and worry that their building will collapse?

“Terrified”?

Perhaps a bit dramatic, R273.

The point stands that this event should awaken people in Florida , Venice, etc. that CC is not going away. It will inexorably continue; if not escalate.

If this is what it takes to jolt folks from their (self?)-imposed-ostrich-head-in-the-(sinking)-sand that changes are afoot, then so be it.

Granholm was appropriate.

Your whinging does not change the facts one IOTA.

Let's back to the cats, ladies. They should send those hunky firefighters up there to save them.

[quote]In a condominium building, the purchaser owns only the interior, while the building itself is owned by a condominium corporation.

R240 you're still not clear on the concept...the common areas, which includes those areas outside an individual unit which all owners are generally entitled to use, including the structure, are owned by the unit owners themselves, but ADMINISTERED by the condominium corporation (which is in turn owned by the unit owners.) Condo corporations do not own the building, and generally hold no assets.

they had better save those cats. Does Florida know how to do anything at all in terms of rescue?

[QUOTE] In addition to the four bodies, crews also found other human remains. Rescuers were able to build a ramp for a crane to reach areas at the top of the pile they had not been access before, Jadallah said.

[QUOTE] State Fire Marshal Jimmy Petronis described the ramp as “a Herculean effort” that would allow the use of more heavy equipment.

[QUOTE]“Now you are able to leverage massive equipment to remove mass pieces of concrete that could lead to those incredible good news events,” Petronis told Miami television station WSVN.

Is this guy serious? The only good news that can come from under those mass pieces of concrete is that these people died instantly. Quit yanking our chain. Nobody survived.

This is getting exhausting. They need to start the recovery phase. Nobody's alive in that pile. If someone is still alive, they'll either be paralyzed, dismembered or afflicted with the worst case of PTSD imaginable. That sounds harsh but it's the truth.

they are not really trying to find people. They are not trying to rescue animals. This is Florida. They could have asked for more help.

Save the cats now!!!

[quote]Does Florida know how to do anything at all in terms of rescue?

First time it's come up.

[quote] Save the cats now!!!

Don’t you mean save the cats meow?

The people bleating on about sea level are missing the point. The garage's flooding wasn't due to "king tides', it was due to rainwater landing on the pool deck & draining into the garage, most likely compounded by chlorinated water slowly (but constantly) leaking from the pool (adding corrosive chlorine to the mix).

Things like dikes won't hold back a permanent rise in sea level (because water will eventually percolate up through porous limestone), but they CAN hold back occasional king tides & storm surge. In Florida, not even buildings with elements below sea level are directly exposed to saltwater. Anything that COULD is sealed in membranes to limit exposure, and massively over-spec'ed so that even with deterioration over time, it'll remain safe.

In the case of columns that extend below bedrock and might be partially submerged someday, you basically have two structural elements: concrete for compressive (vertical) strength, and steel for lateral (flexible/tensile) strength. For all intents and purposes, the lowest portion of such columns are just limestone formations intentionally formed in place to guarantee the building is resting on solid ground. Tensile strength doesn't matter much, because the limestone surrounding the drilled-out hole ITSELF keeps it from moving and flexing. In an area where earthquakes occur, like San Francisco, things get more complicated... but in South Florida, they *really* DON'T.

Sea level rise is real, and causes other problems (like flooding streets), but few of Miami's skyscrapers are in any direct danger of having their structural integrity compromised by climate change. Even 80 years ago, engineers knew coastal Florida buildings would periodically be exposed to salt water from storm surge & designed buildings to handle it.

Climate-change fetishists act like saltwater storm surge is an unexpected modern scourge against which buildings are defenseless. It's not.

And just to repeat, THIS building had plenty of rainwater getting funneled into the garage to cause deterioration. Daily summer rain (and winter rain, for that matter) in Florida is nothing new. In Miami, our "dry season" is relative... an occasional day or two of rain, vs 3+ weeks of daily thunderstorms when it's SO WET outside, you start to doubt that it's EVER really been dry outside, or will ever be again.

[quote] Things like dikes won't hold back a permanent rise in sea level

Just you watch us, buddy.

[quote] so that even with deterioration over time, it'll remain safe.

Tell that to the families of the missing people from the collapsed Champlain Towers, R276.

Didn’t one of the building maintenance guys say that the parking garage flooded with saltwater at every king tide? Here’s another perspective on the effects of rising ocean level and sinking land level since that building went up.

^^Yes, several maintenance staff and various owners have said that while there was leakage from the pool deck, the cause of the flooding in the garage was tides.^^

r277, Miami Beach's new dikes aren't there to hold back sea level like some magic inverted aquarium, they're to hold back TRANSIENT high-water events, like king tides & storm surge. Even 100 years ago, builders here had enough sense to grasp the concept of king tides & storm surge and design buildings to mitigate it. The dikes are mainly to prevent things like road-flooding. The buildings THEMSELVES are fine.

Dikes cannot work to hold back sea level rise in Miami, because the ground is porous. The water come UP from below ground, not in from the ocean and bay.

When a cat wants to be rescued, it will let you know. Otherwise it probably is more sensible to keep it watered and fed than to send some human crashing around an unstable building trying to catch it.

R276 The chlorine mixed with rainwater runoff into the parking garage is very destructive over time, but this isn’t the only building in Florida with a similar design so their are multiple factors that contributed to the collapse.

Poor quality control of the construction such as concrete that is not properly mixed or altering original design plans which we already know occurred when they added a penthouse floor.

I wonder if that pool had been refinished or converted from chlorine to salt within the last 2 years. Chlorine is corrosive but so is salt and if they decide to switch it this could have led to an accelerated deterioration of the rebar.

The last time I refinished my pool I decided that I wanted to go with a saltwater system and got several quotes and most of the contractors advised me against it because it decreases the life of the finish and fittings like the in-ground pool lighting which is housed in metal.

[quote] so their are multiple factors that contribute

Oh, DEAR!

^^^^^ TEDIOUS!

Bill Cosby just took over the news cycle. Sorry, condo collapse porn people.

Mia the cat has become another Cosby victim.

Cosby's conviction was overturned on a technicality. We hear that sort of thing a lot, but this time it's true.

He was still tried for his crime and was found guilty by a jury of citizens.

He still did several years on ice.

And he will always be radioactive to the end of his days.

That’s it now I know why the building collapsed, it was because of Bill Cosby.

Actually, I think Don Rumsfeld had something to do with it.

"Climate change fetishists" what a chancre sore you are. You don't care because you'll be dead before it seriosuly affects you. Wish you'd hurry the process.

Will somebody PLEASE think of the dogs?!!!

His girlfriend wanted his pinga. Her cock craving saves his life.

Live by the cock...live by the cock.

I saw that Brazilian hottie on CNN. He's got a nice mouth.

That article basically yadda-yadda'd over the crucial part.

[quote]The couple stayed up for a bit, chatting and sipping on beers before turning in for the night after 1 a.m. De Moura estimates he fell asleep about 30 minutes later

[quote] what a chancre sore you are.

He’s a what now?

R294, Please see R160.

They should get a cat trap, wire gravity water and food bowls to it and plunk it (gently) on the balcony. Coco will starve/thirst out eventually, and may be less weirded out by the new contraption now that the balcony is her ordained feeding spot

My sister used to trap feral cats (boy did THAT get out of hand) and those traps work quite well.

Coco, we know you are probably living it up, but this is for the best.

What a shitshow.

It's amazing to me how long it took for all these reports to come out. They need to clear out the rubble, identify the dead and implode the rest of the building. I doubt they'll put a memorial on the beachfront but they could erect a statue or something

I suggest a group of statues “Bickering Condo Board” in the style of Rodin.

R298.

Oooh, I love you, r304!

And if it was you who called him that, well, just—oops. I need a cigarette now. I’ll get back to you.

As long as there are 150 bodies rotting in the heat, they are not going to expend undue effort to rescue a fucking cat.

Reading between the line of r301's article, it seems like the Board knew the situation was really serious.

FL is a third world shithole. Why do you think the rats have all scurried there after their defeat? Garbage State.

That Washington Post article makes it very clear why requiring certifications on these buildings only every 40 years is absolutely irresponsible. On the part of everyone involved. It took a lot of people and a lot of years and a lot of neglect for that building to simply collapse filled with human beings.

[quote] Maybe a little panic would get people moving in the right direction.

Love the Money Story -- Being a climate oracle never means having to say you are sorry.

That's been the entire philosophy of the movement since the first Earth Day back in 1970 when we were all warned the new Ice Age was just around the corner, and so much further hysterical bullshit. All ramped up into overdrive when people like Al Gore figured out how to use it to become multi billionaires. After fifty years of failed predictions of doom most people tune it out, but the profit and political control motives are stronger than ever.

Meanwhile people like Gore and Obama buy beachfront mansions.

18 spectacularly wrong apocalyptic predictions made around the time of the first Earth Day in 1970, expect more this year

I don’t have a TikTok account so I’m not able to link directly, but the the second video on this account — the one with 4.2 million views — shows water pouring into the garage right before the collapse.

It also looks like there are chunks of cement on the ground right behind the gate.

I've heard a respected scientist talk about climate change and warned that some things are being exaggerated but other aspects of global warming are not being talked about enough and will be more harmful sooner so we really need to focus on them asap.

Sorry no details - that's all I remember - not my field. LOL! But BOO!

r311 Great find! I wonder what the back story is on who took that video and at what time?

It was a recorded by a woman staying at the hotel next door. 1:18 am.

Video here for anyone who doesn't want to wade the Tik Tok waters

[quote] That Washington Post article makes it very clear why requiring certifications on these buildings only every 40 years is absolutely irresponsible. On the part of everyone involved. It took a lot of people and a lot of years and a lot of neglect for that building to simply collapse filled with human beings.

I know very little about condos or building maintenance, so pardon my ignorance. But by waiting 40 years for re-certification, doesn't that mean that any problems are likely to have built up to such a point where fixing them will inevitably be very expensive, forcing huge assessments on the residents, who are likely to balk at the price tag? As easy as it is to point fingers at residents who objected to the assessment and tried to delay the repairs, I can also understand the sticker shock of being told that you will need to pay an extra $500 or $600 every month for 15 years. Apartment dwellers often bitch when their rent goes up by $40 or $50 a month.

I'm less bothered by the delay between the 2018 report and the 2021 project start date than I am by the delay between the building being built in 1981 and the re-inspection being done 37 years later, in 2018. If the certifications were done every 10 years, for example, couldn't problems be caught earlier and needed repairs spaced out gradually over time to make them less expensive and more palatable to residents? Whose idea was it to require re-certification only every 40 years? And what is the law in other states? How many other aging buildings are out there that haven't been inspected in decades and may be on the brink of collapse?

Cats who still might have a chance of life are more important than squished dead people.

They needed Steve Forrest and Dan Haggerty to take charge!

That video at R311, R314 and R315 shows what a DUMP that $urf$ide building was. You have to wonder how many other Florida condo building$ are just as bad.

The article at R301 makes me really sad for these people.

The condo association has hired a high-powered D.C. PR firm.

This condo is like a bossy, pass-around bottom. Eventually the fun is over.

How does the condo association function now and afford anything? Half the members and their fees are gone. The building is done. I can't imagine a single dollar will ever be paid to the association. This is going to be a circular firing squad. The condo association will be held responsible by the relatives of the deceased and the surviving tenants. The latter are part of the association, right? How many of them and those who died, objected to and voted against costly fixes?

The damn cats are probably why nobody can get their work done in the rescue.

How many of the board members are still alive?

Hiring a PR firm at this point seems bizarre. It’s not like they can spin this any other way but a complete catastrophe.

[quote] It’s not like they can spin this any other way but a complete catastrophe.

And if they don't rescue poor Coco and Mia, this will be a double CATastrophe.

Cat people should be exterminated along with their disgusting vermin companions.

[quote]The requirement to recertify a residential building structure every 40 years seems pretty thin. In 40 years, a lot of degradation of a building can occur, enough that it might not be economically feasible to make the needed repair.

[quote]That Washington Post article makes it very clear why requiring certifications on these buildings only every 40 years is absolutely irresponsible.

r233, r309, r316 and others I actually think people have lost sight of the intent behind the 40 year inspection. The 40-year inspection was put in place to ensure buildings in Miami-Dade and Broward counties can withstand a 100-year calamity level hurricane, like Andrew. They were checking to make sure the building can withstand EXTREME weather conditions like 120+ winds. The original intent wasn’t to detect wear and tear caused by poor building design, which is what this looks like. The local governments need to clearly define what the 40 year inspection is for, and establish a new more frequent inspection to detect defects and other issues like this.

The UN released a report on global warming, the world is gonna suck by 2050.

Do you mean this r330? Or is there a different report you didn't care to link to?

Thank you R331. I didn't read the whole report, just saw the headline somewhere online.

r316 r329 Here is where the 40-year rule came from.

[quote]"All of a sudden we had this tragic collapse," said John Pistorino, who was an engineering consultant for the county.

[quote]Nickolas Fragos and Anna Younger and the five other DEA employees killed in the 1974 collapse. He investigated the collapse and helped determine that the seven people died when the parking lot on the roof of the DEA building gave way. And it was out of that tragedy that Pistorino came up with the idea of requiring recertification for buildings after 40 years.

[quote]Since the DEA building was approximately 40 years old, he thought that seemed like an appropriate cutoff point.

[quote]"That was that was my logic at the time,” he said. “If a building was left without proper maintenance and with our [sea] salt environment, our aggressive, heavy salt air environment, it would deteriorate over that period of time. So that was the basis of it."

Two of the condo board members are "missing" according to R301's Wash Post article. The others survived.

The person who took that video minutes before the collapse is very lucky, she could have been killed.

[quote]Two of the condo board members are "missing"

The Treasurer, and the other authorized signer on the account, along with the Reserve Fund.

Florida Republicans do not believe in Climate Change or regulation. This is the result. Who wants to live in a death trap?

Americans, we need to have the GOVERNMENT involved in regulations and infrastructure. Vote PROGRESSIVE, aka the Democratic who believe in Democracy and Science.

Damn generous of those people to get pancaked or we wouldn't have shit to talk about.

R338, The mask goes over your nose and mouth, not your eyes.

R166, Is the hot Jewish guy having lots of survivor sex?

Does his mother let him out of her sight?

The video of the water pouring into the parking garage “just before the collapse”, where is the water coming from? A broken water pipe, ie the building was already shifting? Also, if it was that close to the collapse, I wonder why she didn’t record that. I think she was far enough away and not directly in front of the garage.

Is that concrete behind her on the ground in the garage? It looks like large boulders behind the grate (in the picture where the lighting has been changed so you can better see into the garage). You can't really hear in the video because of the wind but it sounds like they are talking about cars.

Also in the account by one of the older woman who made it out of the condo tower that fell. She had been woken up by a noise and she thought maybe her balcony door was open. When she went to check, she actually saw a large crack opening up in her living room wall. She quickly got dressed, grabbed her purse and ran out and went down a staircase and made it out. She heard part of the tower collapse as she went down the stairs. She said there were no alarms going off and it was quiet until the collapse. I wonder how many of the others woke up given it seems the walls were cracking apart at least a minute or two before it all came down.

Omg, they suspended "rescue" operations overnight because the remaining section was swaying 6", and there's a column hanging on by a literal thread. They need to rescue Coco & Mia NOW, while they still can. Right now, there are two(*) living, breathing, loving & beloved children of God up there who are confused, afraid, in mortal danger, and most importantly... who can STILL BE SAVED.

---

(*) More, if the dog & hamster/guinea pig I read about are still up there. I haven't heard about them lately, but they matter too.

#SaveCoco #SaveMia

Jesus, R343’s story made the hair on my arms stand up. Fucking frightening.

" I wonder how many of the others woke up given it seems the walls were cracking apart at least a minute or two before it all came down. "

in the video of the collapse, you can see a couple of lights that come on in the apartments in the last section to fall. these were the unlucky one who woke up. one looks like it could be in the apt. of the woman on the phone with hubby

Hubby?

Cassie would never use a Frau word like "hubby".

Cassie Stratton was in the part that collapsed first.

Can engineers somehow prop up the remaining part of the building? How are they going to continue recovery?

[quote] one of the older woman who made it out of the condo tower that fell. She had been woken up by a noise and she thought maybe her balcony door was open. When she went to check, she actually saw a large crack opening up in her living room wall. She quickly got dressed, grabbed her purse and ran out and went down a staircase and made it out. She heard part of the tower collapse as she went down the stairs.

This woman also had the foresight to grab her not-that-small dog, drag the dog out with her and when she finally made it outside there was a sinkhole forming outside the door. She had to toss the dog and jump a few moments before the entire building collapsed. Incredible story.

I'll admit the other story that got me was the 50-something Jewish man who had just moved into the building after burying both his wife (from cancer) and both parents (from COVID-19 - they were New Yorkers) in the last year. He had his daughter and son-in-law visiting. They had arrived earlier that evening and all three are now missing and presumed dead. Horrific.

"Cassie Stratton was in the part that collapsed first. "

no asshole, either educate yourself or stop making up shit per the NYT graphic, she was on the fourth floor of the part that collapsed last.

This confirms that everyone didn’t die instantly. What a nightmare. Who knows how long it took for this poor woman to finally die while trapped completely immobile underneath the rubble. I’d rather drown than go like that.

[quote] no asshole, either educate yourself or stop making up shit per the NYT graphic, she was on the fourth floor of the part that collapsed last.

Irony.

R351, it doesn’t mean they didn’t die instantly. The floors pancaked on top of one another. I’m pretty sure it was instantaneous. The point was they may have had a minute or so to react before it happened.

[quote] we need to have the GOVERNMENT involved in regulations and infrastructure. Vote PROGRESSIVE, aka the Democratic who believe in Democracy and Science.

Precisely what Dade County and Surfside have been doing ever since the building was constructed under the regulations of Governor Graham.

Thank goodness for local zoning authorities who believe in Democracy and Science.

[Quote]no asshole, either educate yourself or stop making up shit per the NYT graphic

Morning drinking?

[quote]They need to rescue Coco & Mia NOW

Chill guys. We left the Fontainebleu yesterday and are now hanging at the Roosevelt bar in South Beach.

R351 The article talks about a different woman who was trapped under the rubble and in verbal communication with rescuers for 10 or 11 hours after the collapse until the fire broke out and she perished in the fire.

have they save the cats and the other animals? I do not think this is a top notch rescue team in Florida.

R351 R357 Why would they share this information? To torment family members? Does anyone need to know this?

WHY??

R359. It seems it was common knowledge (media and general public) that someone was banging and calling for help from the rubble. The official was asked about this in an interview and he acknowledged that yes they had been in contact with that person. He focused more on how much effort had gone into trying to get to her, how traumatic it was for the rescuers who couldn't reach her, and were helpless once the fire started.

[quote] She quickly got dressed, grabbed her purse and ran out and went down a staircase and made it out.

I think it helped that it was 1:30 a.m. (not many people awake and realizing what was happening). We had a practice evacuation drill at my old job. Four-story building. My God. That stairwell got clogged up by one, slow-moving (yes, she was an older lady) person. This was a pretty decent-width stairway as well.

Oh god I wish I hadn't read that. Please just spray some fucking cyanide gas into the crevices so I'll at least be able to die a quicker death than lingering in such a horrible way. NIGHTMARE!

Apparently there is a storm heading that way. They need to get Coco out ASAP. I'm not sure if Mia has actually even been spotted. She may be a pancake (furcake?), or have there been documented sightings of her?

Contrary to news reports, the process seems quite slow. Obviously it is tedious and dangerous work, but those piles look as if a dent hasn't been made in them. I am not there and am not a structural engineer, so my perception on this is subject to flaws. Earlier there was a female victim calling out for help. Then she went silent. Either they couldn't pinpoint the sound, or perceived the risk was too high to frantically try to reach her. Tragic.

R362, Mia was not in the collapsed portion. Her owner, Susana Alvarez, lived in #1006 which is on the front of the building overlooking Collins Ave. Drone operators have not seen her moving around the apartment (unlike Coco on 4th floor).

One well trained falcon would solve the cat problem in an afternoon.

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That's bupkus.

R342, the video was shot from the pool area of the hotel next door (there's a small side street between them for the garage access to Champlain towers). A couple were taking a late-night swim when they felt the ground shake & heard a loud noise from the building. Upon seeing the water from the broken pipes & the concrete chunks in the garage, the woman grabbed her phone & began recording (timestamp 1:18 am). The total collapse happened a few minutes later. Apparently, there were some residents who went to their balconies to see what was going on, and the couple began shouting and waving at them to get out, but they could not be heard and/or understood. (the woman doesn't speak English)

Here's an interview with them (and more video shot right after the collapse).

The concrete chunks in the video link at R368 are just scary! That had to be alot of noise for that time of night.

The entire disaster is horrifying, beyond a typical disaster even -- there's just something about preventable deaths that take the horror to another level. It didn't need to happen and it shouldn't have happened.

It would be nice if lawyers stepped up to represent residents pro bono (maybe even donations), if there's such little coverage. Lawsuits aren't just about money, but making a strong statement, to maybe help prevent oversights in the future. I'd like to see everyone involved in negligence be held responsible.

It's unfortunate the guy that came up with "40 years for assessing buildings" didn't work on having that time frame lowered (20 yrs) -- the 1974 DEA building was at the 40 yr mark, but obviously 40 years was when disaster already struck. It also makes repairs more costly and damage will be farther along. Can only hope this disaster is a wake up call about building safety, regardless of why it occurred.

From the Daily Mail article:

[quote] There are also early signs that victims may be considering third-parties to file suits against, including the government agencies involved in the rescue effort.

Only in America would victims want to sue the rescuers. Disgusting.

It's not just the period of years, R370. It's the willingness of the state to write tough laws and then enforce them.

This building seems to have fallen down in large part because the condo owners fought maintaining their own building. That shouldn't be an option. Attain certification or vacate the building. No other choices.

If there is no STRONG downside to failure to make the repairs and attain the required certification, then they will fight and resist and threaten and do everything possible to push the expense of maintenance and repair farther and farther into the future. Until one day, there is no more future.

If they DARE to even CONTEMPLATE proceeding with demolition of the still-standing portion with Coco & Mia inside, I will PERSONALLY organize a human chain to desperately try and stop them.

Fuck, as much as I personally despise PETA, I'd even stop holding my nose long enough to hold hands with THEM if I thought it might help save the kitties.

At the VERY least, they should:

* Put a humane cat trap with food & water by Coco's balcony, along with a camera to monitor it.

* Send a drone unit by unit to search for Mia, then send an agile robot or two armed with catnip-infused toys to try and get her to follow it down the stairs to a lower floor with open sliding glass door (or sliding glass door shot open using a military drone) the bucket can reach, with another food-filled trap.

I mean, hell, the Army has MILLIONS of dollars' worth of agile robots capable of climbing stairs, manipulating doorknobs, seeing in the dark, etc. USE THEM!

#CatLivesMatter

any update on the cats and other animals. This is so sick. Rescue them already.

We need tougher regulations that prevent irresponsible owners from stalling needed repairs.

I am sure responsible owners that care about their condo will either pay up or sell if they can’t afford the assessments but for part time owners, flippers and Airbnb owners it will be tough to get them to comply without legislation.

[quote] farther and farther into the future.

Oh, dear!

i will never buy anything so close to the water. I don't care if it's a lake, river or sea.

I’d go in and get my cats if they’d put me up there in a cherry picker or crane. It’s stood this long, I doubt my 190 lbs will bring down the rest of that structure at this point.

[quote] If they DARE to even CONTEMPLATE proceeding with demolition of the still-standing portion with Coco & Mia inside,

From the sound of things, "they" may have no say in it. (or need to contemplate). The building is shaking & swaying. 6"-12" of movement was detected when they suspended the search operation last night. Per NBC Miami's 6:00 pm broadcast, search & rescue crews have been cleared to resume work & are back on the scene now. I guess the building has "settled" enough?? Yikes.

r375, it's easy to say that "the board" should have the power to go over the owners' heads and get critically-needed maintenance work done, regardless of cost... but then, how do you prevent a board from agreeing to an extraordinarily bad deal in return for kickbacks, as a favor to friends/family members, etc?

If you put in a mechanism to allow owners to sue the condo board after the fact when this happens, you render it effectively unusable, because then residents will ALWAYS accuse the board of financial mischief and sue. Likewise, if you empower the board to go ahead without owner approval, any board that forces an unpopular decision will be recalled and voted out within a matter of days, and whatever they decided upon will be instantly undone by whomever replaces them.

All that REALLY needs to be done is to require inspections every few years... say, 5 years after completion, then every 10 years thereafter... and insurance companies will take care of the rest of the problem, the same way they collectively did with Underwriters' Laboratories. If an inspection turns up a structural deficiency, an association refuses to fix it, and insurers start refusing to write new policies for units in the building, then escalate and start refusing to renew policies in the building a year or two after that, you can bet your ASS that repairing those deficiencies will move to the top of the association's priority list. If buyers can't get insurance, they won't be able to get a mortgage. If current owners with mortgages can't renew their insurance, they'll be in technical default and at risk of foreclosure (or at best, will have to pay the bank for a VERY expensive policy that covers ONLY the amount they still owe the bank).

I dont fully know the laws around this, but I believe the reason they arent sending firemen into a swaying building to rescue Fluffy is because pets are considered property.

It's because it's Florida and they are not trying to rescue anyone. Call and make them rescue these animals. These cats.

Firemen run into buildings to save humans and animals all the time. What the fuck is this sideshow from Florida? Save the CATS already.

If they fuck up and something happens to Coco (Mia's status remains vague though they should still be looking), then fuck them all directly to hell.

Coco being alive is symbolic. If Coco snuffs it because of an inability, or desire to rescue; or refusal for some vague legal reason (like the owners if they are even alive are going to sue), that is going to create a shitstorm of epic proportions.

I despise PETA. I now say bring those cunts in and let them get the job done.

why don't they find a very thin vet who specializes in rescues. They should have done this by now.

Why would they be suing the rescuers?

r386, I think there's a sense that the rescue is moving too slowly and the foreign helpers are not being allow to get on the scene quickly enough. But the reason for the delay is to ensure that the Mexicans, Israelis, and Americans are all on the same page about protocols and practices. I can't remember if I read that in the Daily Mail or the Wall Street Journal. I'll archive and post the Wall Street Journal's most recent piece.

It was in the WSJ:

[quote] She said she and other family members also feel frustration, at the relentless rain, the fires that halt work on the site, and what looks like bureaucracy that seems to slow teams from Mexico and Israel from adding their expertise. International teams have been on the ground for days, but Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Chief Alan R. Cominsky said it takes time to make sure everyone has the same training and follows the same protocols on such a complex and unstable disaster site.

[quote] Why would they be suing the rescuers?

They ruined my new carpet!

Exactly, R372. There was much concern about Champlain Towers North, the "sister" building constructed a year later (same design, builders, materials, etc). Board members of Champlain North were interviewed & gave a tour of their underground garage a few days ago. It was like night & day. If a garage could be "immaculate", it was immaculate. Their board has always been hyper-vigilant about maintenance (and apparently functions much more smoothly) and it shows.

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Last post redacted. Here is a better link. Hot IDF colonel discussing the challenges of working at the site.

After a week in the Florida heat there won’t be any more bodies to ‘recover’ at this point. They need to just implode that portion that’s still (barely) standing and get on with clearing the debris and whatever they need to do to determine why this happened.

Here is the latest from the Wall Street Journal.

R376 dear oh dear thread clogger, "farther" and "further" are wooords.

R377 what's wrong with living close to a lake/river? Flood risk? Because a lakefront two-story home is my dream.

Re: NYT graphic @ R350 (which was updated earlier today)

I'm really surprised by the number of units still labeled "status of residents unknown" (meaning officials don't know whether it was occupied) a full WEEK after the collapse. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few, but there are 30-plus units! Several of the collapsed units were second-homes to "snowbirds" & such (including two Canadians), but I don't understand how anyone could NOT have heard about this by now -- unless they were camping in the wilderness, or on a sailboat somewhere.

R395 not only is illiterate, she thinks she's running an AP regional office here.

Hey, bitch! We all have access to the actual news and better commentary from informed people than one finds at the DL.

Perhaps you would like to revisit the thought that, here at the DL, your ignorance does not give you pride of place and your attempt to control what people post, especially as they attempt to reduce the proliferation of lazy, pissy dips and their becunted sisters here.

R380 If you take the time to read the articles regarding this specific condo association you will see that they constantly bickered about the cost of essential repairs, this dragged on for years so your suggestion that more inspections is what was needed would not have helped in this case, they had the inspection.

Inspections only go so far in that you have the report, but that does not mean the association will execute. Legislation needs to be crafted to prevent this type of inaction from condo associations in the future with sufficient safeguards that prevent frivolous expenses.

Tropical Storm Elsa set to hit this area any day now

Which means rescue operations will be put on hold once the storm hits the region

So was this Marie’s Kondo?

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A former board member, Myriam Notkin, is among the missing. She resigned in 2019 (after five years on the board), frustrated by the dysfunction, fighting, and inability to get anything done. According to another resident, the other board members made her life miserable. She & her husband Arnie lived in #302, two floors above the garage entrance (with the broken pipes & concrete chunks). I can't help but wonder what going through her mind as the collapse started.

All the articles documenting the smell must be infuriating the poster on the last thread that called everyone talking about how locals were talking about the smell "retarded" because it was impossible for any smell to be emitted from under all that concrete and steel.

The tropical storm hitting the area over the weekend is pretty much going to halt all efforts for several days at minimum.

[quote] The tropical storm hitting the area over the weekend is pretty much going to halt all efforts for several days at minimum.

And it looks like Miami is going to be on the east, "dirty" side of the storm. The rest of the building could easily fall down.

The only way the conditions could get worse would be an actual hurricane. It is peak rainy season right now and it's miserably humid. It rains buckets like every 6 hours. All that water has got to be weighing down everything, and there will be tons of rain with the storm. I really don't know how these people are going to get anything accomplished, but I guess they will. The army corps should erect a huge pavilion over the pile.

Oh, fuuuuck, r404.

I am just brokenhearted about the lady trapped and the rescuers couldn't get to her. They have to be just devastated they couldn't get her out. Damn.

And that poor lady who filmed that water pouring in the garage before it all crashed and was trying to warn those people on their balconies to get out. I hope she gets some counseling. What a fucking horrible thing to witness and be totally helpless.

Very interesting read.

That poor lady who died before they could get to her is tragic upon tragic. There is enough detail that her family is going to figure out who she was. It would have been better for her family to never know about this, but of course they’d be (accurately) accused of a coverup,

It was about 10 hours after the collapse when rescue workers said they heard the woman crying out for help.

'We were continuously talking to her. ... 'Honey, we got you. We're going to get to you.'

The woman was trapped in the lower level of the building behind a wall of concrete, a dumpster and a tangle of rebar, and the rescuer said he was never able to make visual contact with her.

After a desperate effort, the rescuers were were pushed back when a fire broke out.

After that, 'We know she passed,'

The woman told rescuers that she was trapped alongside her elderly parents.

R408: yeah that’s probably the most horrific detail yet. ‘We know she passed’. The rescuers probably heard her as she was burned to death or overcome with the smoke.

This is DL. We have a troll here who won't allow you to say she passed. You have to say she died.

Ever hear the story about the Mississippi steamboat that caught on fire and when one of the boilers exploded and landed on top of one the workers, the worker begged his coworkers to shoot him because he was burning to death and couldn't be rescued? One of his coworkers finally did and the local DA declined to prosecute.

R409, they were probably using FINDER remote sensing, which is a radar device that can detect a heartbeat and breathing through ~100 feet of rubble. It can also monitor and differentiate between several people at a time.

From the link at R407:

[quote] There were structural deficiencies identified that probably went back all the way to the construction of this building. And a lot of it has to do just with the fact that the pool deck was built flat, which is a huge no-no.

Isn't the North Tower almost identical to the one that collapsed? Does the North Tower also have a pool and a pool deck that was built flat? If so, will that building eventually see the same fate? The North Tower apparently has been better maintained and hasn't had the kind of damage that the South Tower faced. They're allowing people in the North Tower to evacuate, but most residents are staying put. But if the North Tower was built with the same design flaws as the South Tower, isn't it just a matter of time before it, too, becomes unsafe? And who in their right mind would buy a unit in the North Tower, knowing what happened to the identical South Tower and knowing that they might be hit with a huge assessment for repairs at some future date? I don't see how the North Tower can be anything but doomed.

To those who said they can't figure out why people would own a cat instead of a dag as dogs are better pets. The thing is, dogs are a huge responsibility. Dogs take a lot of effort. You need time and patience. You need a certain lifestyle to be able to take care of a dog. Dogs are not for everyone. I'm single and live alone. I work a fulltime 9-5 job 5 days a week. I literally can't take care of a dog. It's animal cruelty to leave a dog home alone for that long. That is why I instead opted for a cat. My biggest dream is to own a dog. I have been dreaming about it for years, but because of my situation I can't own one. That is just the reality and I have to deal with it. For now I have a cat and I love my cat. Cats can be amazing pets too. No, they will never be dogs, but they can sooth depression and help one feel less alone.

R413, see story at R390. Champlain North may (or may not) have had the same design flaw in the pool deck (being perfectly level), but their board has been extremely vigilant about their building's maintenance over the years, unlike the bickering, cheap-ass yahoos at Champlain South. They addressed some of the pool deck issues (new waterproofing, drainage of the big planters) years ago, and have NONE of the spalling & exposed rebar issues as seen in Champlain South.

R411. that story has never been proven true. It is assumed to be based on this account from Mark Twain's Life on the Mississippi:

[quote] By this time the fire was making fierce headway, and several persons who were imprisoned under the ruins were begging piteously for help. All efforts to conquer the fire proved fruitless; so the buckets were presently thrown aside and the officers fell-to with axes and tried to cut the prisoners out. A striker was one of the captives; he said he was not injured, but could not free himself; and when he saw that the fire was likely to drive away the workers, he begged that some one would shoot him, and thus save him from the more dreadful death. The fire did drive the axmen away, and they had to listen, helpless, to this poor fellow’s supplications till the flames ended his miseries.

R414, cats are wonderful and are very sweet and loving. If you get a dog, I hope it will make fast friends with your kitty.

Agreed, R408. That was really difficult interview to listen to. Using that NYT graphic @ R350, it's seems pretty obvious that the woman was in either #204 or #304 . Firefighters & rescue workers are typically very discrete about that sort of thing. I can't imagine that they would have shared information like that with the public, if they hadn't shared it with the families first.

Contrary to the popular press, dogs and cats often make great friends of each other.

R408 - - going through the nyt graphic mentioned by R350, I wonder if the woman was Live Nation exec (and dj, it seems?) Theresa Velasquez, who was visiting her parents. Looks like they were in an apt on the fourth floor.

R411's story was recounted in a L&O episode and McCoy said he wouldn't have prosecuted.

I don't think there's really any point in debating the merits of cats & dogs at this point. They're both great, loving pets that mean the world to their owners -- just different. And they respond differently in disasters. I can only speak to my experience with earthquakes. When things SHAKE, cats hide. Susana Alvarez said that Mia immediately dove under her bed when the severe shaking/collapse began. Dogs adhere to you like glue -- after their initial freak out/running around.

I feel so bad for Susana Alvarez. Coco's owners (an elderly woman & her daughter) were rescued from their balcony with each other AND their dog, Rigatoni. Even if Coco doesn't make it, her owners have each other, and they have their dog -- but Susana has nothing. She's single, has no immediate family members.

Sorry - - the Velasquez family was on the fourth floor. There's also the Cattarossi family on the fifth floor but there was a child in that unit and I'm guessing if the mother was alive she would've mentioned her to the first responders.

Argh -- the Velasquez family were on the third floor.

I understand, R424. I assumed it was the family in #204 ( or possibly #304) based on those very early videos of firefighters in the garage -- hip-deep in water, with poles propping up a collapsed wall/ceiling.

Coco and Mia are slippers at this point and as such are hardly worth rescuing. Better quality could be found at the dollar store.

Yikes. The northern end of the building (where it sheared-off) is being held up, in part, by the debris pile.

After seeing the graphic below, now I *really* understand why officials are so worried that it might collapse. I had no idea that the underground garage extended so far to the west, beyond the footprint of the building.

Unless Mia has found some water up there (broken pipes), I think she's probably toast at this point. Cats can survive a week-plus without out food, but only 3-4 days without water. It's been 8 days.

If they didn't want to pay to fix the pool, why on earth wouldn't they just drain it--no more pool service. That they did nothing and thought it would be alright is so nutty to me.

Question, guys: I have a slight morbid curiosity to go take a look--I live about 20 minutes away. But the more rational side of me is saying that it will be traumatic. Those of you in NYC, did you visit the site of 9/11 while they were still in rescue mode?

I would say: "Don't go near there". Have some respect, instead of indulging your morbid curiosity. They don't need any more lookie-loos around there. There are plenty of up-close images on-line. You really gotta get closer??

R429 go take a peek. Won’t kill you (well maybe).

Yes, go to the northern end of the building, stand on the debris and take pictures. I'd love to see them.

R407, thanks for that.

The article presents facts to address “Why The Dream of Florida is Dead.”

Sobering information.

Combined with its sociopolitical chaos and mayhem, Florida is turning into a living nightmare.

[quote]Those of you in NYC, did you visit the site of 9/11 while they were still in rescue mode?

The area was blocked off by 8 foot tall sheets of plywood forming a wall around the site. You could go, but all you saw were other disaster-tourists and street vendors selling photos of the World Trade Center towers with Jesus praying over them.

Have any Disaster Porn Stars emerged?

I am skeptical of reports-- put out by residents and the Board-- that the north tower is totally fine. It sounds like wishful thinking or desperation to protect property values. No one knows at this point. Why are people taking their word at face value? It's very naive.

Cats are not second rate dogs! Dogs are fucking awesome, but cats are fucking awesome➕

R436 me too. Same shoddy construction and just as old. I’d move out and demand a full inspection.

[quote]I’d move out and demand a full inspection.

Demand? Isn't that cute. Demand away, dear.

More likely you would be stuck in a worthless apartment encumbered by a huge mortgage and have nothing but denial to see you through.

Rigatoni, Rigatoni, where art thou Rigatoni?

R439 piss off

R429 - unless your name is Armie and you have a strong desire to find out what 140 bodies under rubble in the Miami heat smell like, I wouldnt go.

I would like to know if the delays in repairs due to the condo owners and association bickering can be used against them in recouping insurance payments and any future lawsuits against the contractors.

I keep seeing new lawsuits and can’t help but think there is a pattern with these people in pointing blame at others. This building did not get to this point because it was well cared for and maintained. The sister buildings do not have the same maintenance issues.

[quote]That doesn’t mean we aren’t going to have a MAJOR MOTION PICTURE release based on the TRUE LIFE events that occurred in Florida these last several days!

Too bad Shelley Winters isn't still alive; she'd be perfect for this: Mr. Lowenstein who lives on the 12th floor with her husband Maury and is always complaining about those rowdy kids at the pool & the creaking at night, which she attributes to the antics of the two homos that live above her!

The whole mess with the condo board bickering over much needed repairs has been enlightening in the most horrifying way.

R445, yeah, whatever inkling I have about condo ownership vanished. The cons of renting are trivial (and much easier to remedy) compared to owning in a HOA.

In the graphic at R427, it shows the spalling by the part of the building that's still standing. So what made the other sections collapse? I saw the video of the water pouring out of the pipe and all the concrete chunks behind it. That's probably what caused the middle section to collapse. Since the right side (facing the debris pile) had no support, it too collapsed. What's holding up that other section?

As for Champlain Towers North, one of the CNN-linked videos showed a tour of that building. It looks like their board was more proactive. That building is pretty clean and clear as compared to CTS.

Rigatoni is cute but 4 syllables is too much for a dog.

Now the entire nation knows what spalling and rebar are. We all saw it but who would have ever thought they had names?

I have seen spalling on eldergays for years.

Living in a condo (new building) and being on the HOA board, I can tell you that this is 100% about money. The assessments were going to be in the hundreds of thousands. For every single apartment. I can guarantee MOST of those residents do not have that kind of money sitting around. So we’re talking several residents being forced to take out large loans or second mortgages that they couldn’t afford in order to fix something they couldn’t see or truly believed was a problem. And I also guarantee those boards were shitshows of ego and stupidity. I speak from experience. We’re trying to get an engineer’s assessment in our few years old building because there are some cracks in the walls and we can’t even agree on how much to pay for a fee. It’s a nightmare.

That’s one of the dangers of living in a condo building. Eventually huge repairs are going to come up and everyone has to split the cost. When you live in a coastal building where salty water regularly pours into your parking garage soaking your foundation for days, there are going to be massive repairs involved at some point. The residents were either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid about what they had to do. And now they’ve paid with their lives.

This is an object lesson in living in a condo. If you’re considering it, carefully assess whether the building is in good shape, make sure you get a building wide inspection, and ask to see the boards repair records and financials. If they’re not willing to share that, move on. We’re planning on moving within the next few years to a house where we don’t have to rely on anyone but ourselves.

Btw, I wouldn’t be caught dead in the North Tower. Just the building collapsing next door would have huge ramifications for the structure and foundation. Any engineer who tells them it’s safe is insane and should lose their license. Anyone who is staying there is a fool. Beside, there’s a burning crypt next door that going to be pulling out rotted and crushed bodies for months to come. Who the fuck would want to live there?

[quote]The residents were either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid about what they had to do.

Or just good Right-leaning Libertarians who won't be told what they have to do.

Somebody who is unable to sell, R452, or does not have a second home? Or do you think an insurance is going to cover this?

[quote]Living in a condo (new building) and being on the HOA board, I can tell you that this is 100% about money. The assessments were going to be in the hundreds of thousands.

Agreed, but don't condos put $$ in escrow for repairs of the roof, structural, etc. You're likely completely right about the cost factor & yes, it was probably more than they could afford, but aren't condos required to have a reserve for such things?

Government is paying for residents to move out of the building right now if they want R454. I don’t know if that’s just temporary. It’s not clear what insurance will have to pay up for, there are going to be hundreds of lawsuits. Against the board, board members, the city, inspectors, insurance companies, etc.

Really R456? I am surprised hat government would step in in FL. What about the third Champlain tower and the ultra luxury Renzo Piano condo building next door?

I bet you Ivanka is trying to get a govt freebie right now.

[quote]Agreed, but don't condos put $$ in escrow for repairs of the roof, structural, etc.

It ain't automatic. If the owners balk and vote against it... you're fucked. The size of the reserve is, at least in most places, not regulated by law. It's up to the discretion of the owners. People move to Florida to avoid high taxes. It is almost a certainty that you're going to be surrounded by Republican loons who are going to scream and holler about Librulls taxing them through assessments to maintain their own investment.

Some of the strongest "requirements" related to this reserve come from mortgage banks. If they see a healthy reserve, they are more inclined to approve/fund a mortgage loan. If the reserve is not adequate, your loan application can be denied. But this building shows clearly that leaving it all to market forces is inadequate.

[quote] The assessments were going to be in the hundreds of thousands. For every single apartment. I can guarantee MOST of those residents do not have that kind of money sitting around. So we’re talking several residents being forced to take out large loans or second mortgages that they couldn’t afford in order to fix something they couldn’t see or truly believed was a problem.

And for those residents who had moved into the building only recently, it would mean taking out a large loan or second mortgage to fix problems that had developed long before they ever moved into the building. They're being asked to shoulder the economic burden of 40 years worth of neglect, even if they've only lived there for a few months.

[quote] That’s one of the dangers of living in a condo building. Eventually huge repairs are going to come up and everyone has to split the cost. When you live in a coastal building where salty water regularly pours into your parking garage soaking your foundation for days, there are going to be massive repairs involved at some point.

That's why I don't understand waiting 40 years for an inspection and re-certification, especially in a coastal building. Of course, there are going to be problems, and the cost will be huge, and residents won't want to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars. If these condos were inspected every 10 years, problems could be caught in the earlier stages and repair costs could be spread out so the burden wouldn't be so huge.

Imagine a hurricane rolling through that area. That debris pile will be blown all over the place. Body parts too I imagine.

[quote]They're being asked to shoulder the economic burden of 40 years worth of neglect, even if they've only lived there for a few months.

No. Caveat Emptor. They are being asked to meet the responsibilities they accepted when they purchased an apartment in the condo.

Do your due diligence up front, before you buy. Because once you put your hooks into that building, the building has its hooks into you, too.

[quote] Beside, there’s a burning crypt next door that going to be pulling out rotted and crushed bodies for months to come. Who the fuck would want to live there?

One of the penthouse units in the North Tower is still available for $725,000.

Make them a low-ball offer, R463. You just never know!

But it's really going to have to be an all cash deal.

[quote] Do your due diligence up front, before you buy.

Yes, potential buyers always need to do their homework. But how can you "do your due diligence" if some of the problems with the building are unknown, or if the condo association or building officials aren't exactly forthcoming with information? I doubt that anyone who bought one of the condos was told, "This building has serious design flaws, will need millions of dollars worth of repair, and may come crashing down at any minute."

I’ll offer $0.99 and not a penny more!!

There was some financial person on CNN yesterday or the day before. He said that many residents were retirees living on $40k a year (don't know where he got that info). Anyway, a retiree with limited income couldn't afford the $15k assessment. What bank would lend $15k to someone in their 70s or 80s?

I live in a condo building with 7 units. There are about 30 buildings in the community. When repairs were needed to the pool/tennis courts, and when the roof, siding, windows and balconies had to be replaced, it wasn't voted on. It was assessed based on the number of bedrooms (1-3) and our condo fees raised slightly. All garage doors were replaced but the reserves took care of that. Occasionally, there have been special assessments over the years because of snow removal overruns but those were spread over 3-4 months.

They have released things like back to us like balcony door replacements but they have to approve the color. I even had to get condo approval for my pet screens because they are a darker color. The screens are our responsibility. I don't use the tennis courts or pool but that's not their fault. I choose not to.

My condo fee for my 2 bedroom is $288. That takes care of lawn care/snow removal, garbage pick up. Our community was built in 1991 (at least my building was). The other condo communities within walking distance have higher fees but their building exteriors look like shit.

[quote] I’ll offer $0.99 and not a penny more!!

$0.98 over here!!

*waves hand*

This is why I dislike the whole concept of condo living.

With single family homeowners you either have those that keep up on their properties or those that don’t bother to upgrade or try to get by without necessary repairs.

The differences cause conflict when you have shared walls and financial responsibilities with people who do not share the same values in homeownership. Plus egos from people that feel like it’s a pissing match.

[quote] Cat people should be exterminated along with their disgusting vermin companions.

That's what the 17th century witch hunters said. Then the mice ate their grain and flea-ridden rats gave them the plague.

R469, my Mom and Dad separated 7 years after they bought their house. My Dad paid very little in alimony (his lawyer argued that my Mom could get a job so alimony lasted 2 years). The insurance company required her to get a new roof in order to continue to insure her. She had to sell some jewelry and take out a loan to do that even thought she was working full-time. She eventually made enough money to afford new siding, doors and windows. She actually paid off the house.

No matter where you live, there's always some expense and someone to make you spend money you may not have.

R450 you might have seen spalling on eldergays but did you know the term other than the ravages of time?

Welcome to libertarianism!

Common sense folk: We need to check into this!

Libertarians: Fuck that! We’re having fun just the way it is. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

Common sense folk: We think it *is*broke. We’re calling in experts.

Libertarians: Fuck that! You mean “elites,” right? Those pansies who went to college & got a degree after raising their pinkies while drinking beer at their fraternity house for 6 years!

Experts: This is a disaster waiting to happen

Libertarians: Fuck that! The whole world is a disaster waiting to happen. You’re not getting my money, you overpaid nannies!

Relatives of dead libertarians: We demand accountability! Give us money!

R471 My comments are about how people have different views on what is and is not necessary maintenance and how it doesn’t work to well when you have shared walls.

I am referring to individuals who can afford to cover the expenses but won’t. I have a family member with money in the bank to spare but won’t replace their roof because it’s not leaking yet even though it’s well past it’s lifespan of over 30 years.

When you allow maintenance to to go unchecked the issues accumulate until it becomes a major problem that can’t be easily resolved. I assure you that this condo was full of nightmare owners that refused to comply as seen in the association papers.

[quote] I would like to know if the delays in repairs due to the condo owners and association bickering can be used against them in recouping insurance payments and any future lawsuits against the contractors.

What contractors? You think the same group of contractors are still in the same business from 40 years ago?

[quote]I have a family member with money

Borrow enough from them to pick up a grammar book.

JFC

Also, how can you sue contractors when you refused to maintain your property for 40 years?

Lawsuits have been filed against two contractors, Morabito and S&D.

R476 Fuck off and die.

Surfside isn't a poor community and those condos aren't cheap. No one is living there on $40K a year.

An individual condo owner could not fix a foundation issue or retrofit a building. This is why you need Regulations on buildings to do this.

Also, either a building is safe to live in, or not?

The building was deemed safe to live in, but it was NOT safe. Obviously, there are lot of players in this corruption, and the insurance companies are one of them.

Be concerned about the other tower. They said they forced a renovation of the building that removed tiles to reduce the weight. This means there are serious structural issues.

Isn't it possible that a number of owners bought many years ago and the idea of coming up with 80 to 200k would be considered crazy and outlandish? Despite all the inspections people really did not know how bad things were. I mean that elderly woman told her son she couldn't sleep because of all the creaking and there was nobody to say there shouldn't be this creaking stay the hell out of there! Her son didn't say this? I wouldn't have known to say that to my mother! But building engineers know!

Except for what's her name Maggie Mannara(?) the treasurer of the HOA who grabbed the money in April and ran. I'd love to know what her story is. She clearly knew disaster was in the offing and warned no one. She wasn't going to lose her investment causing a run on the bank.

They need to get those cats out ASAP. They are not even trying.

There’s no way the North building is safe. No way.

This is so disturbing. I hate Florida.

What are they going to do let the people go in to save their pets?

They know where the two cats are. Send a rescue person inside, get the cats and then knock the building down.

Aren't there other pets left behind? If a rescue person can risk their life to go in an owner can go in. Honestly I think I would go in for my dog. It would be unbearable thinking of her alone and scared and having the building knocked down with her in it.

The building was deemed safe for people to live in, and with their animals. They have to rescue the animals, YES.

IF the building was not safe for people to live in, it was unsafe. The State of Florida has to release paperwork PUBLICALLY to condemn the building.

Given everyone's part in this DEATH TRAP, they do have to Rescue the pets.

Just go in the building. What are the cops going to do, shoot you? Go in and get your animals and get out.

Yeah, with the storm coming this is now a situation critical to get Coco and any other pets that are still alive out. Why they are being so weird about putting down a cat trap at least in Coco's case is beyond me.

There are basically stating that one or two humans will bring down the building. The animals are already in there. How the fuck was this building EVER deemed safe for people to live in?

If they would take me up on the Cherry Picker thing, I’d go in and get my own cat. It doesn’t have to be one of the rescuers, but I doubt they’d actually let me in.

They other building is not structural safe. If you are in the other building, MOVE your pets and children out at least. It is also a DEATH TRAP. I would just move out completely. FLORDIA will not save your children or pets. So first, get your children and pets out of there.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote] one or two humans will bring down the building.

Jesus Christ. That’s fucked up!

I need a link for this "one or two humans will bring down the building" thing.

One or two Chrissy Metz's *maybe*, but someone light and agile (and good with cats) I highly doubt it.

" Im sure there will be sweeping changes to the state and county laws in the coming years because of this"

haahahaah. these rubes are real idiots, no wonder they vote for us

they should have rescued the animals already. They know where they are. They are in their own apartment.

Are you serious? People going in to save their pets will bring the building down? This building was a pile of shit.

r480, 40 years ago when the condo was built, Surfside wasn't "poor" by any means, but it also wasn't "rich". It was someplace where a 2-income slightly upper-middle-class family (say, two high school teachers who both had summer jobs for added income) could have afforded to buy and live... but for at least the first 10 years or so, would have been pretty financially pinched and spread thin.

Fast forward to the present, and the same middle-class couple is retired and financially stretched thin again. The unit is paid for, but they're now spending more per year on taxes (even WITH homestead exemption), insurance, and condo fees than they ORIGINALLY spent on them WITH the mortgage added on top. Adding a thousand dollars or more per month on top of all that, and they're going to be stretched past the breaking point.

The thing you have to remember about Surfside is that its property values were depressed relative to other areas until about 15-20 years ago. It really WAS a pretty inconvenient place to live, especially when you had to go shopping. Bal Harbour Shoppes was too expensive & had stores you wouldn't have shopped at anyway, and Aventura was a good 30+ minutes away in traffic. It was kind of like living in Brickell or downtown Miami circa 2000... if you lived THERE, shopping at normal stores meant driving 30-60 minutes to get to Dadeland or International Mall. In the late 90s, places like Surfside, downtown Miami, and Brickell were retail deserts. Honestly, places like Miami's beaches, downtown, and Brickell are VASTLY different today retail-wise than they were 20 years ago.

This is a major reason why Miami Beach used to be almost exclusively the domain of Jewish retirees from New York. They had *just* enough money to afford Miami Beach if they controlled their expenses, and since they didn't have to commute to work daily, the relative remoteness of the beaches relative to middle-class parts of the mainland (which were quite a bit farther away than the mainland itself... historically, Miami between US-1 and Biscayne Bay was pretty white, and varied between US-1 and Miami Avenue, but from Miami Avenue west to the railroad tracks (~32nd Avenue)... and ESPECIALLY once you got west of I-95, it was pretty close to 100% pure Liberty City Black.

Back then, if you lived on the Beach and had to go to Hialeah for something, you would have driven north or south to either 836 or 826, even if it added an hour to your drive, Driving west of I-95 on a road like 125th Street or 138th Street would have been INCONCEIVABLE. Mentally, the area bounded by 826 to the north, 32nd Avenue or 27th Avenue to the west, 36th street or SR-112 to the south, and I-95 to the east was a literal black hole that didn't exist. You Just Didn't Go There. Ever.

The Bay Harbor Islands were another area that's a lot more middle-class than you'd expect, for exactly the same reason. If you live there in the 1990s and had to go shopping, you wouldn't have taken the79th/81st Street Causeway to I-95 (at least, never at night) because it was too dangerous... you would have driven a few blocks east to the beach, headed south to I-195/Julia Tuttle Causeway, and taken THAT to I-95 (if you were heading to Dadeland) or continued east on SR-836 to International Mall.

In all those areas, and many more around Miami, you have lots of people who are now retirees living in condos worth more than a million dollars that were actually PURCHASED 30-50 years ago for around $100k, and who NEVER would have had enough money at ANY point in their lives to have afforded their current condos at present-day prices. So, you really CAN'T say, "well, it's a million dollar condo anyway, the owner can easily afford another $1,500/month"... because its present-day owner's OWN mortgage payments were probably more like $400-500/month before the unit was paid off 10-15 years ago.

they are suppose to have blueprints, safe evacuation areas and roofs because it is in a Hurricane Zone. You are suppose to be able to evac people from any floor. Animals weigh less than humans.

If you are not able to get first responders and their equipment in there to save people, it is not safe. AGAIN, animals weigh less than humans.

This building was always a DEATH TRAP.

Who said the building was safe after the 2018 inspection despite all these problems? And why did he say it? Because he clearly didn't know shit about buildings.

[quote] they are suppose to have blueprints,

Oh, dear!

[quote]You are suppose to be able to evac

Oh, DEAR!

Florida is not trying to save the animals. This team sucks. This building was not safe to live in or occupy. They are waiting for a storm to blame it on the storm. The animals are in the apartments though, and could have been saved already.

R505, it’s not the time.

It’s always the time. It’s never the time to show your ignorance.

Get used to it, Toots.

The building will not get safer, it will get worse. They should have gotten the animals out by now. This rescue effort is BULLSHIT.

The cat people are creepy. How many human lives should they risk to rescue a cat?

Is seven too many?

This is why you need building codes, retro-fitting and regulations, so building are condemned when they are unsafe. Buildings have to be retro fitted so rescue teams and equipment can get in to save LIFE. This building is in a Hurricane zone. Not only does a building have to be structural safe, they have to evac people from the top, animals too.

[quote]So, you really CAN'T say, "well, it's a million dollar condo anyway, the owner can easily afford another $1,500/month"... because its present-day owner's OWN mortgage payments were probably more like $400-500/month before the unit was paid off 10-15 years ago.

That's a one sided argument. Most of those people Boomers and such put a lot of money away for retirement, invested in a booming stock market, which also made them a lot more wealthy over time. Plus their cost of living was much cheaper for most of their lives as compared to younger people today. One of my friends is a stock broker and it's like a broken record almost once a month and old client dies who everyone thought was almost penny less except for a shitty home they own but never maintained. Then when they look into the account to distribute the money in the will those old penny pinches have 3 million sitting in the bank somewhere.

My point is a lot of people are like that. They want everyone else to pay for things. That building being neglected for so long means the majority of resident wanted to pretend it was not their problem and figure other people can pay for it once the move or move to the grave. Just look at the other sister building down the street. It's doing fine and well maintained. And I might point out, probably the same income story as you laid out. Why did they keep the building up to code when the owners kept their money and rolled the dice?

A rescue team and their rescue equipment.

This Hurricane Elsa is troubling.

So has anyone said with all their special equipment for sound if they detected any voices or heart beats in the rubble? They kept talking about how they had all this equipment but tight lipped about the results.

Link to part 4.

if the building was not safe, it should have been condemned. This is beyond what an individual condo owner or renter could do. This building was a DEATH TRAP. The firefighters do not want to go in there to save the animals. It is really beyond FUCKED UP.

[quote] Just look at the other sister building down the street. It's doing fine and well maintained.

Or so they would have us believe.

If they couldn’t afford to the special assessment then they could’ve sold for lots of $$$ and moved somewhere cheaper. It’s ridiculous to say that because they were middle class they had no options while sitting on millions of dollars worth of property.

r520, if it's one rational owner then yes, that could happen. But you've got hundreds of owners with varying degrees of awareness of what's happening. People are not perfect rational actors and don't always act on information even when they have it. Look at the north tower-- people are insisting that everything is fine without any evidence that it is fine. Very few have made the prudent decision to leave. It's easy to say in hindsight what people should have done. It's hard to make people act when so much money is at stake and you're talking about their homes.

That new thread has bad vibes. The title is gross but I guess someone wanted to be cute. They keep bumping it which is pathetic. On top of it there are cat haters over there. Why can't we stick to this format? It might be plain, but it's respectful. We didn't try to get cute with the Snow Removal Dispute threads, and god knows there was a goldmine there to work with.

Sorry, just had to vent.

Maggie Mannara did it when she was personally sent info as treasurer on the repairs needed. Did she share the info with the other owners and get out when she saw nothing would be done? And what did she say to the person she sold it to? Did she explain to that individual what was going on and the assessments? Did that person survive?

[quote] If they couldn’t afford to the special assessment then they could’ve sold for lots of $$$ and moved somewhere cheaper.

Then the buyer(s) would need to pay the assessment, right? Wouldn't you have a hard time selling your unit and convincing someone to (1) buy a unit in a building in such disrepair that it desperately needs millions of dollars worth of fixes and (2) pay out tens of thousands of dollars in extra charges to fix problems that had developed for 40 years before they ever moved into the building? Wouldn't the enormous assessment have been a huge red flag that would have made the condos unattractive to potential buyers?

Are condos legally required to disclose assessments that *might* come and have been discussed by the board? Isn’t your realtor supposed to find this out?

Excellent post, r524.

I was going to say something similar but not as effectively as you did.

R254 even with the special assessment looming people did buy there because it was cheap compared to neighboring properties. Even tacking on a $100k or so those units were cheap for the area. Not buying this crap.

[quote] Are condos legally required to disclose assessments that *might* come and have been discussed by the board?

They’re required to make the meeting minutes available, but it’s up to buyers to do their due diligence. I own a unit in a building that is going to need over a million dollars in seismic retrofitting work. The assessment hasn’t been formalized, but the discussions and engineering reports are documented at length in the meeting minutes from the last six years, which buyers typically don’t bother to read.

Is there recourse for a buyer who discovers after the sale is finalized that the seller intentionally with held information about an upcoming assessment? Or does that fall under the responsibility of the potential buyer?

R529, a condo buyer will have access to board meeting minutes and the condo finances. That lawyer from NYC who bought the penthouse for over $2m would surely know this. She also knew that you cannot get a $2m condo in Surfside for that price. The new building next door doesn’t even have studios on the ground floor for that price.

Caveat emptor, r529.

Which is why you should always hire an attorney for a real estate transaction. S/He would know to look for these things and reveal them prior to purchase. If they didn’t, you can go after them and/or make a complaint to the Bar.

With all of that leaking water you'd think the inside of the building would have been moldy and kind of smelly, even more so than the usual beachfront property stink. I bet a lot of the recent buyers were like the woman I read about who paid $600,000 from a divorce settlement. It was all the money she had. She probably didn't know what she was doing, and just wanted to live by the beach.

BREAKING!

And so it begins...

I called it.

I can’t see the Twitter link. What’s up?

On Friday, the Crestview Towers condo association submitted a recertification report from January in which an engineer concluded that the building was structurally and electrically unsafe.

The building was constructed in 1972 and is subject to the 40-Year recertification process.

“In an abundance of caution, the City ordered the building closed immediately and the residents evacuated for their protection, while a full structural assessment is conducted and next steps are determined,” North Miami Beach City Manager Arthur H. Sorey III said in a statement.

The North Miami Beach Police Department is helping the condo association with the evacuation. The city is also working with the American Red Cross to find temporary shelter for displaced residents.

“Nothing is more important than the safety and lives of our residents, and we will not rest until we ensure this building is 100% safe,” Sorey said in the statement.

R504, his name is Rosendo Prieto. He is on a leave of absence from his current job with a private firm in Doral that "provides outsourced building assistance to municipal governments".

R535 Crestview Towers is a completely different condominium from Champlain Towers North.

Where is Crestview Towers in relation to the collapsed building? Is it a neighbor, or in some other part of Miami? Has the collapse made them start cracking down on code violations all over town?

Oh yeah, you're right, r539.

This article was behind a paywall unlike the other coverage by the Miami Herald, so I found a workaround and archived it.

[quote] Condo accused Surfside of ‘holding up’ major repairs three days before collapse, emails show

R540, Crestview Towers is about six miles northwest of Champlain Towers (and about 2.5 miles from coast)

Thank you R538. In other words he is in hiding. I imagine he is scared shitless.

Ordering an IMMEDIATE evacuation of a building like this is completely absurd. I could see telling residents that they have to be cleared out within a week until further notice, or maybe even 72 hours if the building's condition is truly dire, but let's be real... forcing an IMMEDIATE total evacuation is political masturbation and theater.

Here's another way to look at unintended consequences. Suppose you have a building that's hanging on by a thread, undergoing inspection, and everyone who lives there panics at the thought of being forcibly evacuated, so they all make the rational decision to get U-haul trucks and empty out their units before the report gets released and the city pulls the trigger. Suddenly, you have people wheeling literally TONS of stuff down the halls (subjecting them to HUGE dynamic loads within a short period of time) and overloading the elevator around the clock in a mad race against time. People get hurt trying to move stuff they're not up to moving, but feel like they have no choice but to soldier on lest they end up losing it all if they're shut out of the building and not allowed to ever return, not even to clear out their stuff.

Someone gets hit in the parking garage by a truck trying to race out. Someone parks a truck next to the curb in a spot someone else was standing in to guard for someone else, and a gunfight breaks out. When you push desperate people to the breaking point, Bad Things Happen. Wholesale forced evacuations could conceivably cause more "indirect" deaths within the span of a few months than actual building collapses would.

My point is, if you're going to forcibly evacuate buildings, this isn't the way to go about doing it. You don't want to create a situation where people feel like they have to preemptively empty their stuff out of their condos the moment the inspector arrives, JUST IN CASE he decides it's dangerous there, and you have to do it in a way that allows people to empty out the building in an orderly manner over the span of a few weeks, EVEN IF they're officially prohibited from doing anything in the building besides "move their stuff out".

Human tragedy notwithstanding, this thread has been very knowledgeable about condo ownership. That & you couldn't pay me to live in FL. That state is run like a banana republic

Here's an apt in the Crestview Towers. It was built in 1970. But seems more like 1960

Well what happened in terms of the Crestview recertification process in 2012? Was nothing done?

[quote]The thing you have to remember about Surfside is...

That no matter what else, the building has to be maintained in safe condition.

[quote] Someone gets hit in the parking garage by a truck trying to race out. Someone parks a truck next to the curb in a spot someone else was standing in to guard for someone else, and a gunfight breaks out.

MARY!

r547 What. A. Dump.

"if the building was not safe, it should have been condemned."

and in a third world banana republic like FL, who exactly is going to determine it is not safe and condemn it,

[quote] Someone gets hit in the parking garage by a truck trying to race out. Someone parks a truck next to the curb in a spot someone else was standing in to guard for someone else, and a gunfight breaks out.

And then drug dealers (the Jets) on the corner hear the shooting and think it's a rival gang (the Sharks) edging in on their turf. The Jets grab their semiautomatic weapons and begin strafing the garage. Just at the moment, the bakery truck that delivers pies to the building every day is turning in, and gets shot up. All the strawberry pies in the truck get spilled onto the street and local dogs smell the strawberry goo and descend on the mess and begin frantically licking it up. The firetruck pulls up at this point and the firemen's Dalmatian gets horny for the dogs on the ground and jumps off and joins the strawberry goo licking, which is now a dog orgy. In the meantime people are freaking out about their spoiled pies and begin throwing rotten vegetables from their windows. The shifting of weight, caused by the thrown vegetables, causes the building to fall.

It could have all been avoided if only they hadn't announced an evacuation.

Here's an odd question: if a building had an assessment to address these issues, could a purchaser roll the assessment into the purchase loan? I know banks/lending institutions won't loan more than 80% of the appraised value, but is there a way to combine purchase loan and assessment?

"Who said the building was safe after the 2018 inspection despite all these problems? And why did he say it? Because he clearly didn't know shit about buildings. "

NYT has the story ["Collapse Wasn’t First for Inspector Who Said Tower Seemed in ‘Good Shape’] on this guy and, being FLORIDUH! it has all the things you would expect.

incompetency? check bankruptcy? check lying? check corruption? check prior record of failure? check failing upward? check

in my state, Firemen rescue animals.

Same in mine R556 (California home of earthquakes, fires, and other assorted disasters) I posted this in what I'm guessing is the new part 4:

They don't really seem to have been doing what I would consider an all out effort on this, and of course, cats aside, now it's too late. I'm not there, but I get a lackadaisical vibe. This is a zillionth (I am so technical) of the scale of the WTC and the haven't made a dent. I do wonder at this point if they are just waiting for the storm to hit and sort it out for them.

It would have taken probably an hour or maybe two or three to evacuate that building, especially with so many older persons and or children inside.

Being late hour many residents likely were already asleep or at least in bed. You'd have to go door to door, banging on each, wait for response, explain (or tell) people they have to leave then wait for a few predictable responses.

Some will stand there and demand to know why they must leave, and in general waste precious time arguing with emergency response/fire fighters. Others will insist upon gathering up what they believe is necessary this includes finding a reluctant pet. Children would have had to be woken up, fetched, etc...

[quote] in my state, Firemen rescue animals

The cats aren’t getting rescued because this is an exceptionally dangerous situation. The cat loonies on this thread are completely detached from reality.

[quote]This is a zillionth (I am so technical) of the scale of the WTC and the haven't made a dent.

Thank you for pointing that out. It serves to underscore the intense motivation Dick Cheney had to clear ALL the incriminating evidence out of the WTC site immediately. The WTC is NOT the model of how things are to be done after a catastrophic building failure. It is the glaring exception to accepted procedure.

This is because the building is not STRUTURALLY SOUND. The building should have been condemned. People and their animals should not be allowed to be in that Death Trap in the first place.

Now that animals are in there. They have to PAY to get them out.

[quote]Now that animals are in there. They have to PAY to get them out.

Silly. Animals have no money. Everyone knows this.

Rescue Dogs are being use at this site. Why can't a human rescue person go in and get the cats out?

They are blocking the experienced rescue teams because they do not want Credible Witnesses. They could have gotten the cats/animals out by now.

I started a part four thread with the same title, without that "six feet under" bullshit.

Cat people, are you retarded? It's too dangerous to go into that building. PLEASE fuck off.

[quote]Cat people, are you retarded?

Well....

"What contractors? You think the same group of contractors are still in the same business from 40 years ago? "

These contractors, like most, filed bankruptcy after the building was complete. It's how they walk away so if the shit hits the fan, there's no one to sue.

They are going into the building. They are looking for the cats. They cannot find them.

This article is stating they are entering the building. They are looking for these cats.

FUCK YOU, you animal abusing scum.

[quote]They are waiting for a storm to blame it on the storm.

Looks like it should hit Tuesday morning with 65 mph winds. Those cats are fucked.

" Thank you for pointing that out. It serves to underscore the intense motivation Dick Cheney had to clear ALL the incriminating evidence out of the WTC site immediately.

Isn't there the same motivation here to clear all the incriminating evidence of the Jewish Space Lasers that brought this building down?

[quote] in a third world banana republic like FL, who exactly is going to determine it is not safe and condemn it,

I suppose the same bananas who approved the buildings in the first place

getting buildings approved is in the interest of the contractors and real estate industry who bankroll the politicians.

who exactly is in a position to inspect and condemn unsafe buildings in FL?

Wrong, R470. Cats spread plague, along with Toxoplasmosis and all the other disgusting diseases and allergens they carry.

Re the trapped pets: If necessary, I've an opening in my schedule for a 45 minute DL group therapy session at midnight (eastern time).

[quote]Just look at the other sister building down the street. It's doing fine and well maintained. "Or so they would have us believe."

Take off the tin foil hat. Checking the other building was one of the first things they did after the collapse. Who is "they"? Aliens?

Maybe DL's own Matthew Dempsey can lead a group for all the traumatized cat people on this thread.

OP you bitch, you could have at least dedicated the thread to hot survivor son of Israel, who God himself spared from the destruction!

Miami... you're cuter than, an intrauterine...

R577, into a raging grease fire?

Cat people, please kindly continue here and leave us to discuss breaking news

Thank you, R581. It's enough already.

hot survivor son of Israel, who God himself spared from the destruction!

or perhaps his "escape" was planned after he launched the Jewish Space Lasers

Imagine being ordered to immediately evacuate your home by the city. Where are these people supposed to go? Is the city picking up the tab for their emergency housing? Are they allowed to bring their pets with them? Collect any belongings on their way out?

So many questions. What the F

Death toll now 22, including local fireman's daughter.

OT: I live in downtown Sarasota (renting). There are so many new condos going up on the water. They are priced from $2 Million to $10 million ( who has that kind of money anyway?) and it makes me wonder if they are cutting corners while building. Are some of these a Champlain Towers in the making?

R584 FEMA pays for it. They collect belongings if it is deemed safe to do so.

Even if FEMA paid my bills after forcing me to evacuate I would still sue the city/county for allowing me to live in a structurally questionable building for that long, and for the inconvenience.

Karen at R88. Dear they are trying to save your life, not be a part of your inconvenient first world drama.

R581, a single thread won't be able to contain that level of OCD. Just put the troll's two logins (R545 and r561) on ignore and all of the threads become readable again.

All kidding aside, reminder of the legit Part 4 (thank you to the OP who created it!) without any of that stupid title nonsense.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

SORRY! I meant to post that on Part 4

[quote]I live in downtown Sarasota (renting). There are so many new condos going up on the water. They are priced from $2 Million to $10 million ( who has that kind of money anyway?) and it makes me wonder if they are cutting corners while building. Are some of these a Champlain Towers in the making?

It's Florida, of course they are cutting corners. It's always been a boom bust economy near the water building new houses and high-rises. Not to mention the soil in 90% of the state is prone to erosion under a layer of clay which is why they have so many sink holes. Dont think you are safer in a house, sink holes have been know to swallow up the contents (the people inside) right under the house while leaving the shell behind. You are much safer in a modern high-rise because they do a lot of research of the ground before they build. Plus the building codes are a lot stiffer than the wild boom build of the 60's and 70s.

I know, that is so sad that the fireman found his own daughter in the pile...fucking hell!

[quote] What. A. Dump.

Here are some of the Google reviews for Crestview Towers:

[quote] Never buy or rent here. Elevators don't working, fire alarm don't working, central ac don't working, main door don't open, water flooding after every rain. Mold, bad smell, high humidity. Be careful.. management can't fix any problem

[quote] I just moved here and I totally regret it. When it rains water comes inside the apartment and the windows shake when it's windy. AC unit and elevator doesn't work. Bad management team it's just ridiculous

[quote] The view is nice but management sure isn't. My wife reported several problems to management regarding the rusty fire sprinkler pipes and the strange clanking sound the elevator makes and management said " There's nothing we can do about that at the moment Karen" My Wife never mentioned her name was Karen so I assume that meant as an insult.

Sorry, the link didn't work. Was trying to link to the Google reviews for Crestview Towers.

Was the fireman just one of the first responders or did he actually find his daughter there?

R437, I agree with you totally. Mia and Coco must be saved!

He didn't find her. It's in the article at R592.

The fireman did not find his daughters body, it was a different rescue team.

Did the fireman live there and he was working that night leaving his daughter there?