Miami Condo Collapse Part 2

How many people dead so far?

As of the local 11pm NYC news, it was still 4 confirmed dead, 159 missing.

I was on a condo board about 12 years ago. Only three of the 10 members actually lived in the condo, everyone else rented out numerous units.

I can tell you that these assholes absolutely would NOT agree to any sort of improvements or fixes to the buildings unless REQUIRED BY LAW.

We had one prick who pitched a bitch because we had to get smoke detectors installed per the Fire Marshall.

His response was "people can buy them if they want them. We shouldn't have to pay for this shit!"

One of the other board members who lived in the building said "so my life isn't worth an extra $10 a month? Because that what you just said".

He sat there, red faced, his mouth moving like a fish out of water trying to deny it but that's how these assholes ARE.

Just one or two pricks on the board can drag shit out, road block and keep repairs from getting done because they don't want to raise the HOA fee by even ten fucking dollars a month.

[quote]Why do buildings fall down? In “The Water Will Come,” I wrote about the dangerous combination in Miami of cheap building, salt water, and lax enforcement of building codes.

I can't imagine how the tenants of the "twin" of this building must be feeling. I couldn't do it. I would have vamoosed at the first opportunity.

R3 If there were 10 board members, it must have been a very large condo. Most resident condo owners dislike having tenants in their "home," so unless the vast majority of apartments were rented out, the resident owners be approached to be on the board to prevent the absentee landlords from being in control. When put in those terms, resident owners are more likely to join a board.

If a fair number of snowbirds owned apartments and were on the board of the condo that collapsed, it might have contributed to a history of maintenance shortfalls. You can run from a condo for 6 months a year, but you can't hide from your ownership and legal responsibilities to the condo.

The FD said the 12 story building had just over 100 units. Don't know whether that includes the section that didn't fall.

This is so upsetting and surprising I’m still processing it all.

And the reason it so upsetting to me is that this can still happen randomly and without much warning in the United States in 2021. How many more of these buildings are that unstable? Not to mention unsafe bridges.

R7 Per Redfin, there are 136 apartments in the condo. Someone just bought one on June 17 (poor soul). The real estate listing stated that the condo had recently approved a 15-year special assessment. That probably means the condo had to take out a massive 15-year loan to pay for what must have been MAJOR construction work, not just the roof.

R10 continuing: Also per Redfin, at least 4 of the condo's apartments have been sold since March 24. The special assessment was likely announced earlier this year, and people began to sell.

A wee reminder. There is still room on the original thread until it closes out at 600

[quote] I can't imagine how the tenants of the "twin" of this building must be feeling. I couldn't do it. I would have vamoosed at the first opportunity.

What exactly do those people do? I agree that you evacuate for now, but then what? What if city and building officials decide that the building is safe. Do you just stay there, living under constant fear that the building may collapse at any moment and crush you to death? Do you sell and move? How would you find a buyer? Who would want to buy your condo, knowing what just happened to the neighboring tower?

Oh, those poor women being pushed out of the elevator.

Has it been determined that the Kushners are responsible because they wouldn’t let the Secret Service shit and piss, as always, in their new place and rented them a portapotty in the basement garage here that filled up so much that it exploded?

Biden’s America!

R15 even if that were 100% true, NOTHING would come of it. Absolutely fuck all.

If the people snow removal dispute got a an eight part thread, this should last for at least 12.

Florida is being punished for Trump..and DeSantis.

Bless your heart, r17.

R19 Can you please add in Gaetz as well?

Are the people in the section that didn’t collapse ok with coming and going with all this happening? Some of them appear to have rooms that are now balconies. That would freak me out.

Why couldn't it have been Maralargo (with nobody inside to get hurt though)?

Well, maybe a couple of people inside, no?

R23 you can’t think of at least one person who deserves to be in that wish?

The mayor of Surfside said that he won't order the sister property evacuated but he can't guarantee it's safe.

[quote] Surfside’s mayor, Charles W. Burkett, said on Friday that he was worried about the stability of the north building but did not feel “philosophically comfortable” ordering people to evacuate.

[quote] “I can’t tell you, I can’t assure you, that the building is safe,” he said at a town commission meeting.

I know I'd get the fuck out at any price and never look back.

C’mon Mar A Lardo is or should be on the National Register of Historical Buildings. Sinkholes can open up on the golf course though.

Surely their not letting people live in the section that didn’t collapse. I wonder if the reason the body count is still so low is because the floors are laying atop one another like pancakes and you’d have to break through concrete to get to them on each layer. The bodies must be like smashed bugs. At least I hope most of them were sleeping at the time and never knew what was happening.

There were banging noises under the rubble. But they stopped Friday night.

I think the section that didn’t collapse was evacuated R28

R29 that’s a horrifying and heartbreaking piece of information.

[quote]The real estate listing stated that the condo had recently approved a 15-year special assessment. That probably means the condo had to take out a massive 15-year loan to pay for what must have been MAJOR construction work, not just the roof.

Yes, apparently they found out THREE YEARS AGO there was serious damage to the building's foundation, and they were just getting around to getting it seen to.

EVERYBODY should have been evacuated from that fucking building by now.

The Mayor is telling people in the sister Building to get out!

Oh really? Finally! Do you have a link r34?

He just said it this morning. CNN showed it.

Thanks R36 This is good news. I mean, not the displacement part obviously, but that it is being taken seriously.

GET OUT NOWWWWW 🏢💨💨💨

[quote] Surely their not letting people live in the section that didn’t collapse.

Oh, dear!

Screw that, r23, I want the whole grifting family there! Boom!

Boris Sanchez is smoking hot this morning, reporting "live" on CNN from Surfside.

R41 except for the spray on hair

There is a property management company, in addition to the Board of the HOA. If the engineering study was presented to the management company, but they withheld it from the BOD, the Board could be saved, except the argument could be made that they weren't exercising their fiduciary responsibility, by not properly overseeing the property manager. I'm sure the remaining standing units will be condemned by the City and the whole complex leveled., and at that point, the insurers will refuse to pay since the problems were not addressed in a timely manner. Total legal, and insurance mess. The Association is essentially bankrupt, so the Officers and Director's Insurance may pay out something, but ev3ryone here is going to be losers. Sad.

Why is it a sister building and not a brother building, it all sounds downright misogynist?

Attention all residents:

The Fourth of July Barbecue scheduled for next Saturday has been canceled due to obvious reasons.

—Betty, Unit 708, now 608, now 508, now 408….

So it’s obviously a combination of several things-environmental, financial and regulatory issues.

"Oh, those poor women being pushed out of the elevator. "

It might have saved them. That Earthquake elevator scene is camp gold.

How come they haven’t found the people that were on the top floor?

MIA ANOTHER MI SPELLS MIAMI BEACH….

The insurer will pay out. Condo insurance is already priced to account for this (though, I suspect, Citizens Insurance is going to end up insuring a lot more condos next year, and condo rates for old buildings are going to increase a lot).

Even if the building is now worthless, the land it's sitting on is worth millions of dollars to someone able to get a 50+ story skyscraper approved. The value will be depressed slightly by the history, but at the end of the day, it's still a large beachfront lot with small footprint of the collapsed portion for a future memorial park. Remember, even the WTC eventually got rebuilt.

R49. Girls.

Coto Insurance is available for all surviving families needs.

Oh for fuck’s sake. I know the difference between their and they’re. Mistyped. Asswipe.

The nightmare for owners of units in 'sister' buildings isn't condemnation... it's the likelihood that they're going to end up in limbo for months while the City looks for an official excuse to condemn them. Once they're condemned, they can file insurance claims & move on financially. Until then, they're going to have units that they'll be afraid to live in, but have to pay the mortgage on anyway, and won't be able to sell due to insurance. It's in everyone's interest to either establish that the sibling buildings are safe, or condemn them quickly and get it over with.

Ugh..somebody bought Penthouse A in May for 2.8 Million. Can you sue when you have not been made aware of the structural report?

R50 I can believe that the land the condemned building is on is worth a mint. Just a renter myself so I'm not clear how this works. Once the building is torn down, who owns the property the collapsed/condemned building is on now? Does each (former) condo owner have a percentage? Do they all (including the estates of the deceased owners) have to agree together to sell it?

Just when you thought DeSantis dunk Florida to a new low!

**Sunk LOL

Mayor of Surfside has called for residents to evacuate sister building of one that collapsed.

Surfside Mayor Charles Burkett looks like a deer caught in headlights. He's out of his depth, and this is likely more than he bargained for when becoming mayor.

Incidentally, if you know a journalist who's chomping at the bit to blame it on sea level rise, please kick them in the balls, because it's just getting silly now.

A few weeks ago, a local paper actually ran an article with a headline blaming a goddamn house fire on 'climate change' because it was an air conditioner that started it. Jesus F. Christ. Just stop it, already.

Fourth of July will be celebrated at my condo, where guests will be able to enjoy the fireworks display from my new ocean view.

Bring sturdy shoes as some climbing will be involved.

[quote] Can you sue when you have not been made aware of the structural report?

Interesting, but I would argue Plaintiff failed to do his due diligence in inspecting the premises prior to buying.

If you didn’t get a structural report from an engineer prior to purchase, whose fault is that?

(Just playing devil’s advocate here, I truly don’t know.)

Terrific news, r61.

Are you on the ground floor?

Oh, wait.

r56, the insurers pay out, and become the legal owners. Once a majority of units are insurer-owned, they invoke the condo's liquidation clause to sell it and divide the proceeds of the sale. Anyone who still owns a unit at that point will be mostly screwed, because the insurer-owners just want to close the books quickly & won't drive a hard bargain to maximize the price.

Will Chris Cuomo have two or three buttons undone on his polo shirt this evening?

There is a fire in the rubble, maybe in the parking garage, which is slowing down efforts. I can’t imagine waiting for confirmation of death. 159 unaccounted for is awful. It may take weeks.

Everything flat as a pancake, in seconds. They didn't suffer.

What I want to know is, when is the pool going to reopen?!?! It's almost July!

I think DL’s Greg should host the 4th of July barbecue. I would love to see his menu. Just remember that it’s got to be kosher and suitable for Latin American palates.

[quote] There is a fire in the rubble, maybe in the parking garage,

Oh, no! I hope it doesn’t damage the cars in there.

For all you renters who want to get into the RE bubble now is your chance. RE values in that area will probably plummet in similar nearby buildings.

Probably?

Pfffft.

I'd hate to be a resident of the neighboring Champlain North and East Towers. Good luck selling your condo and trying to get out. "Condo for sale. Enjoy the beauty and luxury of Champlain Towers. No, not the building that collapsed. The identical one next door. Picturesque views of the pristine ocean and the unique mound of rubble."

[quote] not even a cat made it through? One of those tiny yapping dogs?

Someone posted a listing for one of the condos in the building. It specified it was NOT pet-friendly, i.e. no pets allowed.

[quote] RE values in that area will probably plummet in similar nearby buildings.

For anyone who buys a unit in one of the nearby buildings, real estate values might not be the only thing that plummets.

R74 There's always someone who sneaks in a budgie or hamster.

[quote] Picturesque views of the pristine ocean*

*Note: These views could go away at any second.

How come Mar-a-lago doesn’t collapse? Now would be a good time.

R87, please adhere to DL standards of wit and originality .

Are you posting from the future?

Whoever turns out to be R87 is under a lot of pressure to perform.

What are those standards?

R87 🤡 🤡 🤡

R87 saved your ass, R78!

Is anybody looking into the possibility of foul play? Didn't some relative of the president of Uruguay live there?

A small car bomb in the garage placed at the right column would do the job….

R85 R86 Witnessing the birth of Condo Collapse Truthers.

Good article explaining what “spalling” is, and what likely happened to cause the building to collapse:

[quote] A spall is defined as flakes of material that are broken off of a larger solid body. Concrete spalling typically begins when the steel reinforcing embedded within the concrete member rusts. Contrary to popular belief, concrete is porous. Rusting of the embedded steel reinforcing occurs when that reinforcing bar is exposed to water and air; without both of these elements, the steel bar does not rust. When exposed to both of those elements, a chemical reaction takes place wherein iron oxide (rust) is produced. The production of iron oxide includes a volumetric expansion of the bar by up to 6 times the original volume, and that increase in volume imposes significant expansive forces upon the surrounding concrete. These expansive forces can cause the concrete to delaminate or to crack, spall, and break off. An illustration of this is shown below:

[quote]Delamination and spalling of a concrete member are both undesirable conditions; not only do they represent a potential struck-by hazard in the scenario where the spalled concrete falls and strikes a person, but they also reduce the cross sectional area of the concrete member and decrease its ability to safely carry imposed loads. An additional consideration is that both delamination and spalling offer increased access of air and water to the reinforcing steel within that member; thus creating a cycle of corrosion and increased access of the corrosive elements exacerbating the process with each subsequent cycle.

Has Alex Jones suggested that this was a false flag yet? You know, to distract from Biden and Kamala eating the faces of babies.

Boris keeps calling the survivor news "crushing". Yikes on the word choice.

It’s only a matter of time before the BQE and Brooklyn Heights Promenade collapse.

The Space Laser and McAfee have been invoked already.

Can we at the very least say “sibling building?”

Why do I keep wanting pancakes?

Well, at least the neighboring buildings will have a clearer view of the ocean.

Sorry, people in the neighboring buildings

r85, if that's the case, it'll be pretty easy to establish or refute once search & rescue ends, and demolition & recovery begins. Any kind of bomb detonation would leave a HUGE chemical fingerprint on EVERYTHING that won't be subtle, and more importantly, almost everyone involved with the investigation would be motivated to BLAME it on that if it were the case, because it would effectively get everyone ELSE (mostly) off the hook blame-wise. Not even Brazil (the richest and largest country in South America) is rich enough to fund a conspiracy against the interests of American insurance companies and investment funds. Also note that my point isn't that Brazil would have any involvement, but rather, that they're the biggest economy in S. America, THEY aren't big enough to pull a conspiracy off, and literally every OTHER country in South America is a destitute peasant compared to them.

What will happen to the third building? I saw a pic of 3 similar looking buildings. The sister building will be evacuated, what about the other one?

How will I get my Airbnb reservation refunded?

"I can tell you that these assholes absolutely would NOT agree to any sort of improvements or fixes to the buildings unless REQUIRED BY LAW."

Well R3, the one silver lining is all of these aging selfish assholes living in these sunbelt buildings will now see their property values drop precipitously while their monthly costs will skyrocket. There was an article last week, I cannot recall where I read it, but so many wealthy towns have awful infrastructure because the aging boomers fight every single increase in taxes...meanwhile, the municipal buildings, roads, sewer systems, are decaying rapidly.

[quote] A few weeks ago, a local paper actually ran an article with a headline blaming a goddamn house fire on 'climate change' because it was an air conditioner that started it. Jesus F. Christ. Just stop it, already.

This is the kind of reporting you see in The Guardian nowadays. I just tune it out and I can't be the only one.

Some things I've learned of the collapse. 1) In 2018 and engineer inspected the property and reported it. Nothing was done. 2) There's another nearby building that was built by the same company and they're now warning people in that building to evacuate. 3) That the building was constructed on reclaimed wetlands. Now if I were building anything more I'd sink the pylons down to bedrock. At least through the core.

Florida, where people go to die! 💀

[quote]. There was an article last week, I cannot recall where I read it, but so many wealthy towns have awful infrastructure because the aging boomers fight every single increase in taxes...meanwhile, the municipal buildings, roads, sewer systems, are decaying rapidly.

R100 That is currently a bill trying to go through Congress.

[quote] Will Chris Cuomo have two or three buttons undone on his polo shirt this evening?

He's still deciding. Leaning towards three buttons undone.

Lol I know r104. I mentioned municipal services covered by taxes or do you not realize local property taxes pay for what I mentioned?

What if this were a 1970s disaster film?

It will make a great 2020s disaster film.

Has there been a sighting of Anderson Cooper wearing a speedo in South Beach yet?

At this point, nobody is really "missing". They're just under the rubble.

If a buyer didn’t get the engineer’s report, they should sue their attorney for malpractice.

Stop talking about “nothing being done” after the 2018 report. The repair work was about to begin. It’s a complex and very expensive project that takes time to plan and finance. Nothing in the report hinted at anything urgent.

[quote] Stop talking about “nothing being done” after the 2018 report. The repair work was about to begin. It’s a complex and very expensive project that takes time to plan and finance. Nothing in the report hinted at anything urgent.

R112 = member of the Champlain Towers Condo Association

[quote]Ugh..somebody bought Penthouse A in May for 2.8 Million. Can you sue when you have not been made aware of the structural report?

Who knows if they were aware or not or, if so, whether they cared. Buyers are being hasty and reckless in this market. Many don't even read HOA meeting minutes for potential problems, much less engineering reports. I own a unit in an old, unreinforced-masonry building in Seattle.. Unless it's retrofitted, the building will likely collapse in a large earthquake. The association has procured a bid for this work, for a cost of $1.2m, which will be financed by a combination of reserves, loans, and special assessment. Still, units in the building are selling immediately, and for well above asking. People don't care about silly details like possible building collapse.

Regulations are baaaad, m'kay

R43 Even the worst condo management company on the planet wouldn’t hold back a report like that. In addition, management companies have errors and omissions liability insurance, although this one would be such a whopper that it could have been excluded by a clause in an E&O policy.

When can I pre-buy into the Trump Towers Surfside? I am really looking forward to the solid gold toilets and Ivanka spa treatments!

R55 You can sue someone for breathing (or their estate if they’re no longer breathing), so the answer is yes. Whether you’ll win in court or get a settlement is a different question.

R114, ya gonna sell it?

[quote]What if this were a 1970s disaster film?

This WAS a 1970s (well, 1980) disaster film!

r102, believe it or not, the bedrock under Miami Beach (and coastal South Florida in general) is hard. REALLY HARD. As in, Phoenix-Arizona-Calichi-hard. The kind of rock that eats tunnel boring machines for breakfast & shits them out before dinner. Imagine the kind of high-PSI concrete used to make highway center barriers... then form a really thick layer of it, with millions of tons of equally hard concrete-like bedrock above it. It's part of the reason why South Florida's biggest industrial export is crushed limestone, and there are VAST limestone mines just west of Miami and Fort Lauderdale (hint: see those big, huge mile-square lakes that are either square, or are at least on their way to becoming square? They're limestone mines.) Concrete made from South Florida limestone is REALLY GOOD. Which is fortunate, because we use a metric shit-ton of it ourselves, and will be using even more in the future.

I do feel sorry for people who've recently bought condos in old buildings. The fact is, just about every old skyscraper is a ticking time bomb of rusting rebar, and there's really no cost-effective way to fix most of them short of demolition and reconstruction. I think 80s-era buildings are likely to be the MOST in danger, because that's the point in time when computer modeling became advanced enough to allow engineers to design buildings to meet legal requirements, and not a metaphorical inch MORE. Older buildings were, in retrospect, pretty over-engineered. Engineers looked up values in tables that massively added margin for error, so even buildings that "officially" just barely satisfied building codes in the 1920s-1960s were "really" kind of over-engineered, and have lots of built-in margin for error. By the 1990s, we became pretty good at protecting rebar, and by the 2000s, we were even better at protecting it & gained the ability to literally monitor its condition IN PLACE as it ages (by doing things like embedding electronic strain gauges into the concrete to allow us to monitor changes in deflection over time).

Ironically, the tallest buildings are also the safest, because they HAVE to have embedded sensors up the wazoo AND are required to actively maintain the data acquisition equipment that monitors them & pay engineering firms to review the data on a regular basis. If a floor in a 70 story skyscraper starts to sag, everyone knows about it within months, and within a year or two, that one floor can be selectively rebuilt before it gets bad enough to present a real hazard. In older buildings, there's a lot more guesswork and intentional blindness involved. Frankly, the owners of most buildings like this one don't really WANT to know about "potential" problems, because once they know about them, they have to disclose them to potential buyers... and in the process, their own property values plummet.

If you dig around court records, there are quite a few older buildings (esp. from the 70s and 80s) with lawsuits where the building is CLEARLY deteriorating, but the board resisted all efforts to investigate (usually, deflecting complaints by saying, "we're due for our 40 year inspection in {n} years anyway"), because they themselves wanted to sell their units and get out before a problem became KNOWN and HAD to be disclosed.

My hunch is that going forward, the law will probably be changed to require inspections after 25-30 years... and if a HUGE wave of buildings are found to have structural issues during those earlier inspections, insurance companies themselves will probably up the ante and start requiring even more frequent inspections as a condition of issuing new policies for older buildings. If no insurer will write a new condo insurance policy for a unit in your building because it hasn't been inspected recently, the associations will be under IMMENSE pressure to get them done more frequently, regardless of what the law itself says, because without insurance, no bank will allow a mortgage. If the only way to buy units in a condo is all-cash without insurance, their resale value will PLUMMET.

R62 It may depend on the wording of the relevant disclosure law. Oh wait, it’s Florida, so there probably isn’t one.

Interesting r121...there's a lot of death traps out there. I wonder about the conditions of those buildings - hell, those cities - that rose overnight hat in China and the Middle East during the last few decades.

The night before a woman in the building couldn’t sleep due to ominous loud noises, creaking, etc

The aging boomers are responsible for most of the shit in society. Fortunately they'll begin their major die off in another ten years.

It will be so much better when the narcissistic "I'm the center of the universe" millennials are in charge.

R115 When only the 1% matter to politicians, these kinds of things happen. I would guess that no 1%ers were living in that “old” condo, even if a penthouse recently sold for over $2 million.

R126, as if Baby Boomers don't think they're the center of the universe. Donald Trump, anyone?

Ok, as mentioned above several units sold this year. One of the buyers was a young one couple, formerly of Brooklyn.

Well the husband did not show up for work on Thursday and his wife has not returned any texts.

I've been in a bunch of those older towers on the beach. Honestly, the ones from the 70s and 80s are BY FAR the scariest. The ones built in the 50s and 60s are big & hulking, but it's the ones built in the 70s and 80s that have blatant corrosion issues that no amount of elastomeric concrete patch can fully conceal.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me, though, is that the parking garages on most of those buildings were EVER legal. I mean, I think about the kind of cars the buildings' first buyers back in the 60s and 70s could afford used to drive (Lincolns, Cadillacs, etc), and wonder how in ${deity}'s name they were even able to DRIVE them through those tight narrow-ass garages and navigate ramps that are a challenge even with a present-day SUV or pickup truck, let alone squeeze them into one of two 8-foot wide parking spaces sandwiched between a pair of columns. At least with a modern SUV/truck, the front hood is only a few feet long. I honestly don't know how a little old lady driving a 1970 Cadillac with HUGE hood, eyes peering over the dashboard through the steering wheel like a frog head, could have EVER gotten a car like that into or out of those garages.

Actually, I think there's a real possibility that the proximate cause of the collapse might very well turn out to be "someone was drunk or tired, possibly driving an unfamiliar rental car in a garage where they've been staying for a few days (or even on their first night there), and accidentally ran into a column in the garage... pushing a structure that was already hanging on by its fingernails over the edge, and triggering a progressive collapse that cascaded into the disaster that occurred". Pure speculation, of course, but I think it's a logical hypothesis.

r130 "like a frog head". Love it.

[quote]The aging boomers are responsible for most of the shit in society. Fortunately they'll begin their major die off in another ten years.

And I for one can hardly wait. It's taking forever.

There were a lot of hunks in that Condominium movie clip.

building on r130, if that proves to be the case, it could end up being a HUGE problem if building codes were later changed to prohibit building towers over multi-story garages, because pretty much EVERY SINGLE SKYSCRAPER in Miami consists of a 10-20 story garage with pool, tennis courts, etc. on top, and 50-80 stories of condo perched on top. At the very least, some of those old buildings might be required to buy out a few owners (since each unit has a certain number of deeded parking spaces, and the association can't just take them away), then retrofit additional strengthening into the exposed columns anyplace where cars are driven (or somehow add additional lateral strength to the decks so that they could outright survive the total loss of at least one column).

R130 If you’re a defense attorney in Florida, there are cases waiting for you where “reasonable doubt” is needed.

The woman who called her husband when the building began to shake said she saw a sinkhole opening up by the pool right before the line went dead. This seems to give r130's theory credence.

It may not have been a single bump into a column that night. If the garage really is that tight to maneuver, I'd bet that columns have been getting hit for decades cumulatively weakening them. The thought of a multi-story underground garage and pool at the building's foundation is scary.

[quote]How come Mar-a-lago doesn’t collapse?

Because it was built by pros.

[quote] Someone posted a listing for one of the condos in the building. It specified it was NOT pet-friendly, i.e. no pets allowed.

Well, there was at least one dog in the building at the time of the collapse. A woman on the west side of the building escaped with her dog. Perhaps it's a service animal or emotional support animal? (which would have been exempt from no-pet policy). It's possible that there might have been a few residents with a service/emotional support animal. (it would be a certainty in California)

So many people in this building had left NYC for a higher standard of living.

Horrible.

“Engulfed” that’s an intense word for what happened.

There was a lady on with Anderson last night who revealed that among the most likely to be dead were her aunt, a niece of Chile’s former president Michelle Bachelet, and her husband who’d been with the IMF. Well heeled folks obviously resided there.

I felt compelled to finally go on Paramount + and watch Terraces, a 1977 TV film about disparate apartment dwellers in LA which included a twink having an affair with a much older married man played by Lloyd Bochner. I have a feeling this film was serving as a backdoor pilot for a series which never happened. By the end of it I sort of hoped that building would get wallowed up by a sinkhole.

[quote] South Florida's biggest industrial export is crushed limestone,

Well, they have a lot more now!

[quote] The woman who called her husband when the building began to shake said she saw a sinkhole opening up by the pool right before the line went dead.

It’s already been established there was no sink hole, per the pressers of yesterday and today.

Somebody on the previous thread asked which floor the boy pulled from the rubble had lived on. He was on the 8th floor. I noticed a large mattress by him as the rescuers were extracting him. I wonder if it shielded and cushion him on the way down. His survival in and of itself was freakish.

(from Part 1)

[quote]What is causing all these small fires/smoke inside all the rubble?

[quote] Every mechanical system is exposed all at once to things that aren’t supposed to mix - water lines, electric lines, flint, maybe gas lines, AC condensate lines, sparks from stoves/ovens etc - it could be anything. It’s just terrible.

This afternoon fire officials said the fires are being fueled by the gasoline (and other fluids) leaking from the dozens of crushed cars in the garage.

r142, my heart goes out to the young Caribbean and South American twinks putting in work with their sugar daddies in the building at the time of the tragedy. Rest in Power!

Hopefully Miami news hottie Raphael Pires will cover their stories

That's how she described it, r144.

Oh, yeah, I know, r148. I wasn’t disputing you (or, for that matter her) description of the event. I certainly didn’t mean for it to come off that way, I was just getting you up to date on what’s been said so far.

We read about that woman either earlier in this thread or in the first thread.

[quote]It’s already been established there was no sink hole

There was no sinkhole, but the roof of the parking garage collapsed just to the right of the pool (which is on that roof), exposing the base of the hot tub and the garage below. I'm sure if you saw that happening, you would suspect a sinkhole, as well.

We hope not too many Latin hottest were killed

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

There are Israeli rescue teams vacationing in Miami Beach?

I would be shocked if they haven't found any bodies. They are finding bodies but they aren't announcing anything until they can make positive identifications. A lack of rescue workers or even expertise isn't the problem here. I'm sure people are upset but it's not clear to me that the efforts are being mismanaged.

I agree. Your family member is "missing" -- realistically dead in rubble. I'd allow wide latitude for emotions to run high - including criticizing rescue efforts. Nothing could be fast enough for someone who's loved one is in there.

[quote][R43] Even the worst condo management company on the planet wouldn’t hold back a report like that.

r116 gurl this is South Florida where all the condo management companies are full of shit. And most of the HOA's are broke or near broke because of mismanagement of funds over the years. Even in a building like this full of well to do people.

A hero mom saved her 16-year-old daughter's life by dragging them both from the rubble to safety, despite having suffered a broken pelvis in the Miami condo collapse.

Angela Gonzalez and daughter Devon plunged four stories from the ninth floor to the fifth floor when the 12-story Champlain Towers South Condo collapsed in the early hours of Thursday morning.

Angelo broke her pelvis in the fall but managed to pull herself and Devon from the rubble.

I also think the teen boy, and his mother who later died, pulled from the rubble lived on the ninth floor. The ninth floor seemed to be a better floor for survival.

It may be like the WTC disaster where they weren't finding intact bodies but random masses of human tissue that can only be identified through DNA tests.

The mayor just announced at a 7:00 pm press conference that another body was pulled from the rubble this afternoon, as well some other human remains.

R155 Sad. The Florida state motto should be “Welcome to the sunshine state, which is all you’re going to get from us here.”

[quote] I would be shocked if they haven't found any bodies.

I wouldn’t be. As r158 said, they may not find intact bodies. That’s an incredible amount of pressure to put a human body under. They may only find remnants.

Look at the rubble pile, do you see anything like stoves, refrigerators, couches, or any other large household items recognizable?

Cassie Straton was speaking to her husband, Michael, from their balcony on the south side of the Champlain Towers when she noticed the building started shaking in the early hours of Thursday, her older sister Ashely Dean said.

"Suddenly she says, 'honey, the pool is caving in. The pool is sinking to the ground,'" Dean said, according to Sky News.

"He said, 'what are you talking about?' And she says, 'the ground is shaking, everything's shaking' and then she screamed a blood-curdling scream and the line went dead," Dean added.

Cassie Stratton will return next season played by Emma Samms.

[quote] I also think the teen boy, and his mother who later died, pulled from the rubble lived on the ninth floor. The ninth floor seemed to be a better floor for survival.

I remember from my time in Japan that you have a better chance of survival the higher up you are in a building.

Wasn’t the ninth floor the last one that the fire trucks can reach too? I guess it’s not luck number seven anymore.

R164 Wasn’t that meant for tsunamis?

I saw this diagram of the collapse sequence on reddit. I found it helpful in terms of understanding what exactly I'd seen on the survellience video (it happened so fast), but even more so, understanding the formation and layout of the Pile. Which is....staggering. Mind-boggling. Overwhelming. I don't know what the right word is.

(p.s. Cassie Stratton was in #412, the red zone)

R153 My guess is that the Israeli team out there is ZAKA. While they do assist in rescue, their specialty is identifying the body parts (however small) of victims so they can be buried according to Jewish law. They also do this service for non Jews. I'm not saying this to be morbid, but that's really what this has come to, a recovery mission:

Members of ZAKA, most of whom are Orthodox Jews, assist ambulance crews, aid in the identification of the victims of terrorism, road accidents and other disasters, and where necessary gather body parts and spilled blood for proper Jewish burial. They also provide first aid and rescue services, and help with the search for missing persons and participate in international rescue and recovery operations.

The founders and members of ZAKA prefer to call the organization and their work Chesed shel Emet (חסד של אמת‎ – "Kindness of truth"), because they are dedicated to ensuring that the bodies of Jewish victims are buried according to Halakha, Jewish law. After acts of terrorism, ZAKA volunteers also collect the bodies and body parts of non-Jews, including suicide bombers, for return to their families. The phrase Chesed shel Emet refers to doing "kindness" for the benefit of the deceased, which is considered to be "true kindness", because the (deceased) beneficiaries of the kindness cannot return the kindness.

R168 I’m sorry but that all sounds morbid as hell, especially the spill blood part.

R167 So it was best to be living in the blue section in terms of surviving?

I thought fire stairs were built to be these impenetrable fortresses that would be left standing in an event like this? Is that later fire code?

[quote] [R164] Wasn’t that meant for tsunamis?

No, it was from the Kobe earthquake. The higher up you are, the less likely you are to get squished when the building comes down. They also advise you to stay indoors and not run outside, so you don't get hurt by power lines and other stuff.

R169 Well, we will take you off of blood spill detail then. Are you willing to do feet? How about hands? Or do you want to start smaller, like fingers?

[quote] Emotional mom blasts Gov. DeSantis and Miami condo rescue effort

I was expecting that. The media loves tears and drama. An attack on the governor is just icing on the cake.

More information on the Israeli assistance.

At least 35 of the 159 people still missing after the terrifying condo collapse in south Florida are thought to be Jewish, and Israel has sent crews from Tel Aviv to help the rescue effort.

Elbaz-Starinsky said more than two dozen of the missing were Jewish and had links to Israel. It was not immediately clear if any were Israeli citizens. Some are believed to be Orthodox Jews from Russia, he said.

I misread the title and thought Marie Kondo collapsed. I suppose dealing with the contents of this building would be quite trying for her.

I’m sorry, but that Israel shit just seems highly invasive and unnecessarily adding to the confusion and complication of a very fraught situation.

Someone asked Marie Kondo if those towers sparked joy.

And she said no.

R171 Fire stairs are meant to help people scram in case they have to evacuate in an emergency. They aren't reinforced, at least in the way you are imagining.

Can someone please shoot the "I'M SORRY BUT" anti-Semite troll R176 into space?

Fucking hell, they aren't getting in the way you asshole.

r167 Thank you for finding and posting that graphic. Really helpful!

R179 I’m not anti Semitic I’m anti religion, there is no need to insert religious controversy into this incredibly complicated situation. I would feel the same way about some Hindu group that wants to come poking around a fragile disaster area.

R169 needs to go back to 1969 and start again. Chesed shel Emet work and its details have been well-covered for over 50 years at least.

But technical descriptions appall where the shock porn of falling buildings killing 150+ people merit no complaint.

Of course.

Israel sent tv crew, at least 35 of the missing are Jews.

I wonder if they sat on the board and refused to do any improvements since they are well known for being tight wads?!

R170 No, it was best to be living in the beige part, Rose. (sorry, but you teed that up for me).

I have no idea, maybe. The teenage boy who was pulled from the rubble that night, along with his mother (who later died), lived on the 11th floor, northeast corner of the building (the blue part).

There's also a humanitarian organization (based in Miami) called CADENA International, which has a 40-member search & rescue team trained in Israel. I learned about them yesterday, when a local reporter tweeted a photo of one their search dogs.

R185 Oreo is gorgeous!

"So many people in this building had left NYC for a higher standard of living. —Anonymous

Fuck NO!. they left NYC to avoid paying taxes, They go to FL for 6 months plus 1 day, then come back to NYC and leech off the rest of us for 5 months and 29 days.

In FL. they vote against any increases in real estate taxes to pay for anything, and probably balk at paying any condo assessments to pay for repair, maintenance or structural repairs. Ronald Regan's America

Is this the catalyst that will finally make housing affordable in South Florida again, fear of crumbling crack era buildings and broke HOAs? Or even the catalyst to slow down the entire real estate boom? Prices have skyrocketed in recent years.

Israel sent tv crew, at least 35 of the missing are Jews.

Were the "Jews" American citizens or Israelis, if the former then Israel should fuck off, and go back to murdering palestinians

Why is Oreo’s leash coming out his ass? Is that the way search dogs work?

Oreo is gorgeous, just imagine being found and nudged by his wet doggie nose..,

I am sorry this happened, but I hope it ruins desantis's chances for re-election/higher office

Another helpful visual illustrating what the rescue workers are dealing with

Good for you r192. Maddow couldn't have said it better.

Is anyone gonna go to jail for this??

Over 150 are dead!

in Floriduh!, nope, there are no consequences

168 176 It is not ZAKA, it is the Israeli Military's emergency crew, which is the world's top emergency rescue service and is routinely dispatched to world disasters (Nepal, Mexico, etc.).

189 needs to be left to die in a disaster.

r196 it will be interesting to see what happens. There will likely be a huge payout to the families, like when an airline crashes.

The 20 FIU bridge victims received a 103 million dollar settlement two years later. That works out out to roughly 5 million per person. In this case that total would close 750 million for 150 people.

[quote] I think about the kind of cars the buildings' first buyers back in the 60s and 70s could afford used to drive (Lincolns, Cadillacs, etc), and wonder how in ${deity}'s name they were even able to DRIVE them through those tight narrow-ass garages and navigate ramps that are a challenge even with a present-day SUV or pickup truck, let alone squeeze them into one of two 8-foot wide parking spaces sandwiched between a pair of columns.

Because people knew how to drive and park back then.

I am looking forward to getting justice for the victims.

R199, they won't get payouts like families of the bridge victims received. I doubt the homeowner's association had a big policy like the bridge had. This will be tied up in court forever

R196 Payout from whom? This was a condo, not a company or university. If the condo board is found in a court trial to have been negligent, maybe the master liability insurance policy will pay, but that coverage was not likely to be high enough to cover the cost of the complete destruction of the building and loss of life. The master causality insurance policy is not likely to pay anything, because this collapse was almost surely due to age-related deterioration and certainly was not an event like a flood or earthquake.

^^ R199 not R196

^^Casualty not causality

This WAS Cassie Stratton's unit- The Marilyn Suite. She loved Marilyn Monroe. A lot of pictures of the condo.

r206 Cool find! She was a knockout.

R202 Yes, it will take a long time for the attorneys to find and legally squeeze all the deepest pockets among the non-insurance entities and individuals.

For Jewish New Yorkers, Miami condo collapse hits close to home

“The Surfside and the Belle Harbor area have a very strong Jewish community,” Seligson said. “They have deep ties here to New York. Many people from the community here travel there either for vacation, many people moved there during COVID. There are a lot of Jewish institutions and kosher shops.”

Many Jews are missing, according to Yosef Dahan, a Hatzalah representative who was assisting with search and rescue efforts on site. “Some of the names are known to me,” Dahan said. “Many Jews live in the building itself,” he said.

The Chabad-Lubavitch COLLive website said at least one couple that is missing are members of the Chasidic movement. “Please say Tehillim for Tzvi Daniel ben Yehudis and Itta bas Miriam, who were in the building in Surfside that collapsed early in this morning and no one can reach them,” their family member, Rabbi Raphael Tennenhaus, requested.

Israel’s public broadcaster Kan News reported Thursday night (Israel time) that 20 missing Jews are Israeli citizens.

However, Israel’s Foreign Ministry spokesperson Lior Havat told JewishPress.com that he could not confirm the report, and that it is not clear whether these 20 are Israelis.

The area, just north of Miami Beach, is known as one of Miami-Dade’s most Jewish neighborhoods.

Have they determined whether it was a bomb or not?

No fire so does that mean it wasn't a bomb?

R206 And now Cassie is a perfect size zero.

We're all very sorry Cassie.

I mentioned in the Bethenny relief for condo collapse thread (lol) that I live in Miami-Dade and this incident has not been brought up in my conversations with other people in the three days since it happened, my reasoning on why this may be:

[quote]I think its for all the reasons mentioned, people in beach side condos obviously live pretty comfortable lives. I think the general population feels terrible, but these victims and their surviving families have tons of resources available.

{quote]We've had an extremely violent summer so far with gun violence in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale. Mayor Cava has been on TV practically every week because of mass shootings. People discuss this all the time, Im guessing because your chances of getting shot and killed randomly are way greater than having the misfortune of your home collapsing around you.

[quote]Also Miami/South Florida is full of transient people who don't even live here all the time. Its difficult to feel a true sense of community. I think that's why the Jewish population has converged on this event so people can feel like someone is doing something.

Enough with the gloom and doom, girls. Can we get back to things of true importance? Are there any photos of Chris Cuomo jogging down Miami Beach shirtless?

R167, thanks. Cool link. Catch the highway sign falling on the car.

r13, if the sibling properties are found to be safe, the owners will UNQUESTIONABLY vote to change the names to something that doesn't include "Champlain"... possibly annually for a few years, just to throw off the guilt by association. The units will be impossible to sell or rent for a year or two, then gradually, the market will forget about it. If they change the name, building color, and balconies, 90% of potential buyers won't even suspect they're related to the building that partially collapsed. Miami is a VERY transient & international city (often compared to being more like an airport terminal than a hometown).

And it'll be totally 100% legal to not disclose the renaming, etc to future buyers. Florida doesn't require disclosure of 'reputational risk' to potential buyers. If the other towers are inspected & pass, there's nothing that REQUIRES legal disclosure. In some states, that's not the case.

Even for the tower that collapsed, all the future owner of the land has to do is re-plat it to make the part where the portion that collapsed was into a separate parcel, and nothing has to be disclosed to buyers of the new building on the remainder. And really, unless you're mentally ill & believe in ghosts or something, there won't be anything TO disclose. It'll be a brand new skyscraper next to a park that won't ever get built upon and block your future view of the beach.

r215 shall I venture out into the night to find out what hotel the newsmen (Boris Sanchez, Chris Cuomo & Ryan Young 👅) are having their orgy at this fine evening? 🧐

I misread the title I thought this was about Marie Condo's collapse.

Yes, please take notes/video and report back to us R218 on the newzhunkz nekkid swim party!

What? Marie Callender's has collapsed? Fat DL whore types sad....

It seem like some troops would be helpful.

What would they do, exactly r222?

A department store collapsed in Korea years ago and they rescued a nineteen year old 17 days after the collapse.

A 58-year-old NYC lawyer who specialized in defending building owners, developers, and contractors accused of violating city codes and regulations moved to Florida and moved into the penthouse in Champlain Towers 3 months ago. Now, she's one of the people who are "unaccounted for" (dead).

Isn't it ironic, don't you think?

My geology teacher said never live in an apartment complex built before 1995. He was talking about the west coast and earthquakes but looks like it might be a good rule to follow anywhere.

R223, their specialty?

Body # 5 has been found and is undergoing identification; missing toll now down to 156. Other "unspecified remains" also found.

R217 That means property buyers should always Google addresses at and near what they’re thinking about buying, not just to learn about the current neighborhood but what may have happened there previously.

R218, you forgot to add the hunky Sam Brock to your list. Also, DL's favorite twink Vaughan Hillyard did a report on tonight's NBC Nightly News.

OK, R227 Sorry, I was thinking "military presence" because I'm not always bright and you weren't specific. Anyway, apparently, DeSantis turned any help of this sort down back when help like this could have possibly, you know, helped.

R206 Thanks for the link. Cassie’s place was quite nice and she was so proud of it. It’s hard to imagine the absolute horror she must have felt…and that her carefully decorated “beach place” would just go POOF and collapse into nothing. I gather her husband was in New York at the time? Damn lucky for him.

NOTE: Despite recent events, there is still a bicycle parked on the back stairway of the 100 building. Please remove immediately.

R232 I've got a soft spot for "our" Cassie.

[quote]A department store collapsed in Korea years ago and they rescued a nineteen year old 17 days after the collapse.

It collapsed because of improperly mixed concrete. Wonder if anything like that had to do with this collapse.

Unlikely. In South Florida, concrete is literally a commodity made by the ton and sold to hundreds of customers by a few companies daily. Concrete is also pretty cheap here compared to the rest of the country, because it's literally a locally-sourced material. It would almost cost MORE for someone to intentionally try to make and sell substandard concrete here.

As I said in the previous thread, "half of Miami's skyline was built with cocaine money." I doubt the Cocaine Cowboys and cartels weren't cutting corners.

Grandson of couple missing in Florida building collapse getting calls from their landline

A man whose grandparents are unaccounted for following the Florida building collapse says he has been getting bombarded with eerie and mysterious calls from the landline inside their sunken condo, according to a report.

Jake Samuelson told local outlet WBLG that he has received at least 16 calls from the number of his missing grandparents, Arnie and Myriam Notkin.

When he answered the phone, he heard nothing but static each time, the report said.

“We are trying to rationalize what is happening here, we are trying to get answers,” Samuelson told the TV station.

He said the first call came on Thursday night, hours after the early-morning disaster that has left at least five people dead and dozens unaccounted for.

“We were all sitting there in the living room, my whole family, Diane, my mother, and we were just shocked,” Samuelson told the outlet. “We kind of thought nothing of it because we answered, and it was static.”

His grandparents, both in their 80s, live in apartment 302 in the Champlain Towers South, and their landline phone usually sits right next to their bed, according to the report.

On Friday, Samuelson said his family received 15 more unexplained calls from the number, the station reported.

The family is now waiting to hear from detectives about the bizarre and gut-wrenching calls, Samuelson added.

His grandfather Arnie, 87, is known as a beloved physical education teacher and Myriam, 81, is a banker and real estate agent, the outlet said.

North Miami Beach Commissioner Fortuna Smukler, who grew up with the Notkins’ three daughters, told the Miami Herald that she began losing hope when she learned that the couple lived in apartment No. 302.

Time to revive One Step Beyond!

Did any of the building occupants order my new Release Me 2?

Maybe the grandparents were still alive and somehow able to call and then redial. That is sad.

Or there's a cat that keeps hitting the button.

[quote]Yes, it will take a long time for the attorneys to find and legally squeeze all the deepest pockets among the non-insurance entities and individuals.

Wait - can I still practice law in Miami?

R242 Sorry Rudy. There are already hundreds of Florida gonif lawyers in line for the lawsuits.

R240 Yeah, those CDs melted like buttah.

Yes very ironic R225.

The tin-hatters will come up with something, r225

I'm sure they're already working in overdrive R246. Even in this thread some idiotic cunt above asked if it was a bomb...

Looks like latest count is five dead, and 156 still unaccounted for/missing.

Why the need for cash donations from the public for the survivors?

Anyone who could afford to live there was financially secure and insured.

This wasn't like an earthquake in Haiti.

[quote] There was a lady on with Anderson last night who revealed that among the most likely to be dead were her aunt, a niece of Chile’s former president Michelle Bachelet, and her husband who’d been with the IMF. Well heeled folks obviously resided there.

I wonder if this condo was a safe house for all the South American drug cartel who spilled the beans? That sure would explain a lot.

Could there have been a meth lab in the sub basement?

Chuck Todd this morning blamed the collapse on “a lot of terrible officials in the ‘70s and ‘80s” who allowed all sorts of shoddy work.

Janet Reno, Dade County Prosecutor 1978–1993

Motto: Never annoy the cartels if you can avoid it.

r253

Motto: Never miss a chance to trash a Democrat, especially a dead one.

The human rescuers are all wearing respirators with cans. The search dogs aren't wearing respirators and are breathing in all of that toxic dust. The dogs aren't wearing protective boots either. I wish that would change.

Shallow bitch that I am, this all makes me wonder if it's possible to really, actually, pull-off what those trash novels and movies ( which I love, by the way) have already covered : You were out on a quick booty-call, you weren't there when it happpened but your family has you declared dead. You had secret stores of money and resources hidden away and you built a totally different life somewhere else away from your original family.

I realize that search dogs depend on smell, but think that respirators just filter the toxic air. I imagine the dogs depend on sound too.

Shit. That’s terrible about the grandparents. When the calls STOP coming would be even worse.

Kaley Cuocco buying the rights to The Cassie Stratton Story as I type this.

[quote] it could end up being a HUGE problem if building codes were later changed to prohibit building towers over multi-story garages, because pretty much EVERY SINGLE SKYSCRAPER in Miami consists of a 10-20 story garage with pool, tennis courts, etc. on top, and 50-80 stories of condo perched on top.

It’s Florida, hon. The laws were written to make money. Medical malpractice/negligence laws were written by physician associations. Real estate laws were written by real estate developers. Highways were build by cement manufacturers. Financial laws were written by bankers/investment firms. Nothing will change for buildings already in existence except may be some kind of performative “reinforcement.” I’ll bet you the buyers signed contracts saying building management could not be held responsible for any structural defect and the building company went out of business decades ago so the builders can’t get sued. In NY builders always dissolve their company & go through bankruptcy proceedings after finishing a project, then start up a new business.

Maybe someone will throw the adult children of the dead $150k and call it a day.

[quote]In South Florida, concrete is [bold]literally[/bold] a commodity

[quote]because it's [bold]literally[/bold] a locally-sourced material.

*eyeroll*

This will make a great setting for my next novel!

[quote] The teenage boy who was pulled from the rubble that night, along with his mother (who later died), lived on the 11th floor,

Someone upthread said it was the eighth floor. I wonder which is correct.

"Somebody on the previous thread asked which floor the boy pulled from the rubble had lived on. He was on the 8th floor. I noticed a large mattress by him as the rescuers were extracting him. I wonder if it shielded and cushion him on the way down. His survival in and of itself was freakish"

Absolutely mattresses can save lives. During the Northridge quake, a couple survived their apartment building collapse due to being protected by their mattress.

Re: r238,

It could be a piece of debris on the speed dial button of their phone.

My mattress would be too hot to save me.

I will sleep between two mattresses from now on when I visit FL or CA.

Hillary strikes again!

If insurance doesn’t cover the damages, the value of the land might.

I'm the one who said the teenaged boy lived on the 11th floor, and I was mistaken -- they lived on the 10th floor. Apt #1002. (His mother's name is Stacie Fang)

Oh, R45… you’re evil… come sit next to me…

Don’t see how this hurts DeSantis.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Will Joe fly down there?

[quote][R199], they won't get payouts like families of the bridge victims received. I doubt the homeowner's association had a big policy like the bridge had. This will be tied up in court forever

Like hell they won't r202. This is America where people get a check for their pain and suffering. Whoever does the payout will likely file for bankruptcy but someone will have to pay up.

"I will sleep between two mattresses from now on when I visit FL or CA."

I'll sleep between two fine gentleman and they'll protect me.

Didn't Connie Francis live there?

All residents please be aware that fines will be levied for Units 101 through 1115 for leaving their garbage in front of their units in violation of the House Covenants and Rules.

[quote]. The human rescuers are all wearing respirators with cans. The search dogs aren't wearing respirators and are breathing in all of that toxic dust. The dogs aren't wearing protective boots either. I wish that would change.

R255 That is because they are flesh sniffing dogs.

Mmmmm. Are they available for Saturday nights?

They can meet me at the Rusty Anchor and help me sniff out some flesh.

This reminds me of when Mike Brady got trapped in a collapsed building and they rescued him just in time for Carol to sing her big solo on Christmas morning with tears streaming down Cindy's little cherub face.

Christ. Accept the help of the troops Desantis! What the fuck is wrong with him?

R260 thank you for your thoughtful post. So the condo owners actually owned the building? They dutifully paid about $1k/mo to the HOA. Who accounts for those fees?

My biggest question is how the sale of these condos goes through. Do potential buyers get a copy of the recent overall inspection report and assessment costs?

R284 we just had a condo sell in our building and the inspectors have been here and the potential new owner has received copies of the board meetings. This is in MA however, not FL.

I have stayed away from this story and just started really looking at it today. I had no idea how "aesthetically" nice this building was until looking at the photos of that poor woman's website- These condos were basically luxury level.

That photo from the daily mail from google maps prior to the collapse- Wow.

So many photos of victims, a lot of children gone-

We really are just dust in the wind like that horrible song says.

Unreal.

This NPR interview with a survivor, Susana Alvarez, is devastating but worth a listen. She felt so bad about having left her cat Mia behind. She also noted that a city official had told the residents the building was safe.

[quote]We really are just dust in the wind like that horrible song says.

I don't find that song horrible at all.

Real.

Why yes, we do take requests...

Still can't touch me in the Horror department.

Speaking of "Dust in the Wind"...

“For all flesh is like grass and all it’s glory is like the flowers of the Field.” They played it (Brahms Requiem) days after 9-11.

Let's starting casting the mineries. Larry David as the asshole HOA president who refuses to listen to the engineers.

The HOA listened to the engineers. The same engineers who reported the problems were hired to plan the remediation, and construction had begun.

Will there be a "bitch of a bearing wall" line?

It's too bad Jerry Stiller died. Imagine if the Costanzas lived here instead of Del Boca Vista.

True, r292. Here it is in all its power.

[quote] The HOA listened to the engineers. The same engineers who reported the problems were hired to plan the remediation, and construction had begun.

I agree on the face of it it's not obvious the HOA did anything wrong. Maybe they delayed things-- they probably did-- but a 2021 start date based on 2018 findings doesn't seem all that surprising, especially considering the pandemic happened in the interim. I'm not an engineer, but the wording of the report is dire. The structural problems were such that no one could ignore them.

[quote] and all it’s glory is like the flowers of the Field.”

Oh, dear!

Each of the 136 units would have had to pony up almost $67,000 for the $9million rehab job.

That was never gonna happen.

This rescue effort is fucked up. Only 9 bodies recovered in three days? So basically any survivors in the rubble are dead now or will die. I understand the collapse site is dangerous, but come on. From thr pictures I've seen, there is no debris removal equipment. Are they just pulling the pile apart by hand? There's something wrong here. Get some cranes in there to at least pull up the bigger chunks of concrete. I'd be furious if I had relatives in there. Also, that site is going to start smelling like decomposing bodies really soon.

they've been smashed to bits, and the bodies and their parts burnt from the fires. I don't think much will be found

Jake is being reminded by Jewish Karma that he never called his grandparents as much as he should have.

r281 Why are they making the already stretched thin police force do this work when there are people at the ready who are literally trained in this specific kind of recovery effort? As r214 who lives in the area said in their enlightening post, there is so much going on in their city (e.g. gun violence) that the locals aren't really even talking much about this.

The police need to be doing their police thing, and rescue and recovery agencies/specialists are the ones that need to be doing *this* thing. They should have been doing it from the get-go, not the local fire department who frankly looked out of their element from the start. Sadly, as I said earlier, DeSantis felt he knew better and turned down "outside" help when it really could have helped. Fucking disgusting.

Dearhsantis doesn't want to be seen as "weak" by taking help from "outsiders" by the trumptards.

Remember, this bloated fuckwit thinks he's going to be running for president in 2024 and he can't be seen as "weak" by the knuckle dragging mouth breathing male trumptard contingent he's betting his nomination on. He figures most of those people are dead anyway so he might as well make himself look good by "going it alone".

Either that or he's just plain fucking stupid as as a box of hair.

Miami condo is falling down,

falling down, falling down,

Miami condo is falling down,

My fair lady

The woman in the audio clip posted above said that immediately after the collapse she heard a lot of people screaming and calling for help. Given it was night it would be hard to tell if those calls for help were actually coming from the rubble or from others who were stranded on half destroyed balconies awaiting rescue. Sound carries in the quiet of night.

I just can't see many people surviving the collapse given the amount of concrete and the very pancaked state of the rubble. Given the fires, smoke, water and dust since then, I don't think there are any more survivors. They should be able to tell during the recovery efforts if anyone had survived more than momentarily past the collapse.

Where are you reading that DeSantis has refused federal help? Everything I've read says otherwise.

What in the world are you talking about R301?

Thank you r308, r309 and r310.

It's frustrating that the recovery is not moving faster and it seems like more should be done. We are so conditioned by movies, social media reportage, and the editing of news stories to expect real time reporting and tidy endings. But the response to a disaster like this is slow, gruesome work. They are not going to announce they are finding human tissue and they are not going to release the names of any identifiable bodies until the families have been notified. The US is fucked up but disaster response is one thing we do right.

Yes he did accept federal help. Sorry. I think the issue was he didn't do it ASAP in a situation where every minute counts.

My criticism of having the police work extended hours to assist, when they are already overwhelmed with other issues stands.

I hope the nearly complete lack of survivors found means that most or all were killed instantly, within seconds after noticing the rumbling and the building coming down. I'd rather that than the alternative of lingering for days, pinned beneath rubble, struggling to breathe, and dying slowly and painfully.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R286 - I'm still here.

I wouldn't quite go THAT far re: our disaster response is "one thing we do right". "We" don't always measure up to our capabilities.

Also, I'll be a bit blunt here. This is a tragic, likely preventable, structural failure. This is not a flood or an earthquake that has wiped out the lives and homes of thousands of people. I think some perspective here is good.

He's taking the money, not the military. Which do you think would be a bigger help right now?

The swimming pool theory is interesting and seems to me the most likely scenario floated so far, taking witness statements into account. It's thought the underground parking garage (below the pool) collapsed first, followed a minute later by the buildings.

R298 I daresay many a lawsuit is going to turn on what judges and juries decide constitutes a timely response by the condo board in this case.

Aren’t there measures they could have undertaken to mitigate some of the damage in the run-up to the large-scale structural project?

Seems like the underground garage would've been more of a problem than a swimming pool. Yes, there are tons of underground garages all over the world, but that close to the ocean?

No state would be eager to accept troops on the streets. There is a thing called federalism in this country, and red and blue states alike are leery of allowing the federal troops to march in. This is a localized disaster-- literally contained to a small area of a small city. If there were a pressing need for troops to help out, then the governor would call up the national guard. Again, this is a tragedy that at most directly affects 1000-2000 people. De Santis is a terrible person but the decisions he's made so far are the decisions any governor would make.

They were relying on the advice of experts.

Ultimately, I think the details don’t matter. It’s hard to argue with the proposition that keeping the building intact is the bare minimum responsibility of the condo board. The fact that it is a smoking pile of ruble is irrefutable evidence that they failed to perform their duties. I don’t think “we didn’t know” will be much if an excuse.

R321 Interest question. Perhaps shoring up the swimming pool from below, the way it’s done for homes that need a foundation repair. The building collapse may have started with the pool collapsing into the garage, which pulled the surrounding ground level concrete down with it, which pulled down the stilts that supported all the floors above the recessed first floor, which pulled down the parts of the building closest to the pool.

Has Rudy Giuliani been brought in to consult?

[quote]Yes, there are tons of underground garages all over the world, but that close to the ocean?

The report of three years ago didn't cite the ocean as the problem. The problem it specifically cited was the poor drainage from the swimming pool, caused by improper installation of waterproofing way back when; the water had gradually eaten away at the structure of the garage.

[quote] No state would be eager to accept troops on the streets.

We’re not talking about soldiers in the streets, we’re talking about additional personnel at the scene assisting the police and fire department. They can only work 15 minutes at a time. The more personnel you have the quicker things can get done.

Why the hell would you think we’re talking about “in the streets”?

R327 Great point, and it shows how pernicious water penetration can be. A warning to homeowners, including condo boards, everywhere.

r301 for comparison only 20 people were pulled out of the WTC rubble alive. The last person to be rescued was Genelle Guzman-McMillan who was pulled out on September 12, 2001.

It looks like residents of the neighboring towers are screwed. Now, they're being told not to evacuate and that everything is fine, based on a "cursory review." And good luck if they try to sell their condos and get out.

----

Champlain Towers North, the sister condo complex to the building in Surfside, Fla., that partially collapsed into a mass of rubble, will not be evacuated after building inspectors determined it was structurally sound, a condo board member said Sunday.

“The building is very sound,” said Hilda Gandelman, a board member for the north tower. “Everything is sound.”

Residents of the north tower have expressed anxiety about remaining at Champlain Towers North which from the outside seems identical to Champlain Towers South. It has the same developer and same design and was built just one year apart.

Inspectors from the town and county spent several hours giving the building an initial inspection on Saturday afternoon, according to the town and the condo board.

At a board meeting Sunday, residents were told that the building had already begun some of the inspections required for the recertification of all buildings over 40 years old.

On Saturday, Mayor Daniella Levine Cava of Miami-Dade County announced a 30-day audit of all buildings 40 years and older under the county’s jurisdiction, which does not include cities like Miami and Surfside, where the building fell.

Mayor Charles W. Burkett of Surfside had said he was considering asking residents of Champlain Towers North to voluntarily evacuate as a precaution until their building, which has had no reports of serious problems, could be thoroughly inspected. “I don’t know if I’d be comfortable staying in that building until I knew for sure that they had done a comprehensive top-to-bottom study on what’s going on in the systems in that building,” he said before the inspections began.

Mr. Burkett said a cursory review of the Champlain Towers North and East on Saturday by a Surfside building official revealed no urgent concerns.

From CNN, Saturday morning:

"Earlier: Biden spoke Friday with Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis after signing a federal emergency declaration for Miami-Dade County, which freed up money and resources to assist in recovery efforts. A White House official said Biden signed the order very soon after receiving it late Thursday.

The phone call was professional and focused on providing Florida the help it needs, the official said.

The emergency declaration authorizes FEMA to coordinate relief efforts and provide equipment to assist with debris removal. The agency has deployed an Incident Management Assistance Team to Florida and two FEMA search and rescue teams are on site. They have also provided building science experts, according to the White House."

Mexico recovered they bodies of the SEVERAL buildings collapse WAY faster than this.

Unacceptable.

R331 Thanks for posting that. Damn, that would make me even more nervous as a tenant "cursory review"? They should be crawling over every inch and up the building's asshole. Fuck this "cursory review" vagueness.

Forgot to add, "no urgent concerns". What were the ones deemed non urgent? Ugh.

Hey, bitches. One of the penthouse units is still available in the North Tower. The asking price is $725,000, and I'll bet you'd be able to negotiate for a lower price.

It’s interesting about the collapse starting within the pool and garage area. I’d think the building would have toppled sideways like a tower of blocks. A sideways fall might have yielded more survivors within protected pockets. But however it started the floors seem to have just totally pancaked on top of each other like the supports between units collapsed too. It seems like today the poor family members are accepting the inevitable outcome.

I hope DeSatan had the decency to thank President Biden and the American people for the emergency aid money.

I'd sooner take a "Cruise of the Damned" from a Floriduh port than stay-in-place at Champlain Towers North or any building in its immediate vicinity; that state has pissed-off the celestial PTB big time!

Best not to live in any complex with a North and South Tower.

R336 Wow, it looks nicer inside than I expected. All those family photos. So sad.

How soon will Jared and Ivanka be leaving the neighborhood?

[quote] Wow, it looks nicer inside than I expected. All those family photos. So sad.

The unit at R336 is in the NORTH tower that didn't collapse. It's still standing (and apparently still available).

The link at r336 freaked out my virus protection. Careful. Damn I wanted to see it.

[quote] Best not to live in any complex with a North and South Tower.

Yeah, if 9/11 taught us anything, it's that when there are two buildings -- a North Tower and a South Tower -- and one of them crumbles, you get the hell out of the other one ASAP. I feel sorry for the residents of the North Tower who are being told everything is fine and not to evacuate.

[quote] The link at [R336] freaked out my virus protection. Careful. Damn I wanted to see it.

That's weird. I posted the link. It's just a standard real estate site. It didn't prompt any warnings from my antivirus program.

I am thinking that cleanup may be minimal due to the series of hurricanes that will be covering the area in the next few weeks that can wash everything out to sea. At least FEMA is already there.

R344, Could I get that in writing?

CNN: "The City of Miami on Friday sent a letter to condo associations of buildings that are more than six stories tall and more than 40 years old, urging them to get an inspection from a qualified structural engineer following the partial collapse Thursday of the Champlain Towers South in Surfside, a city staffer told CNN."

[quote]Hey, bitches. One of the penthouse units is still available in the North Tower.

I hope the sales price includes the air rights because all you will be getting is a bunch of air.

The twin building should be fine if the problems with the collapsed tower were not in the design but, as the 2018 report seems to indicate, caused by the long-term effects of poor drainage. How's their parking garage looking?

[quote] [R301] for comparison only 20 people were pulled out of the WTC rubble alive

They rescued 35 people on Friday. Apparently what's happening on the scene is not being reported in real time. Presumably the press is holding back out of respect for the families and the dead.

[quote] Piece by piece, layer by layer, that effort continued Friday, with hundreds of emergency workers scouring the debris for any signs of life. At least 35 of the most accessible victims have already been rescued and sent to the hospital.

I want to know the brand of the mattress that saved the life of the 15-year-old boy.

R352 Bedrock mattress Rose.

Why is it taking so long? Are they going through the rubble spoon by spoon?

I'll take the 15-year-old boy AND the mattress

The original apartments were cheap looking and pretty basic though they had a few superficial luxury looking features like step up bathtubs. There were at least 2 apartments for sale at a real estate site that appeared to be in original condition.

Granted, the new standards for "luxury" have increased over the decades and you need more oomph to call it luxury nowadays. The refurbished apartments still seemed a bit low at $700-800k for a beach front apartment. Those views are to die for and that beach front location - I'd kill for that.

They must have known from the beginning that finding survivors under a pancaked building collapse was unlikely. They aren't going to risk rescuers' lives.

I adore that smaller green building next door with the art deco front. It's beautiful. I need to look for those apartments.

[quote] Presumably the press is holding back out of respect for the families and the dead.

No way. It’s the city/emergency services who are holding back the identities, aside from the fact they may not have identities yet as a frigging building fell on top of them.

A 2-3 year delay between diagnosis and repairs was COMPLETELY reasonable given the circumstances. The repairs outlined in the report came out to around $65k per unit. You simply can't throw an assessment that huge at people and expect them to pull the cash out of their ass within a matter of weeks, or even within a few months. Most condos, when faced with a bill of that magnitude, try to give owners at LEAST a year or two of advance notice, so that anyone who simply can't raise the money still has time to sell their unit to someone who CAN afford it.

The truth is, damage reports like this one aren't all that uncommon. Building collapses like this one (thankfully) ARE. As a result, even "dire" REALLY means, "a year or two, as opposed to 3-5 years from now".

It's all nice and good to say that life-safety is paramount, but when you're talking about people's homes (and what's probably the single biggest monthly and annual expense in their lives), a certain amount of pragmatism is essential. You can't just casually tell people they have to move out and find somewhere else to live for weeks, let alone months or indefinitely, on top of having to fork out almost as much money as they literally earn in a year. It happens occasionally, but everyone recognizes that you don't do it unless the building is literally and unquestionably in imminent danger of falling down TODAY (something that's rarely clear-cut).

A lot of people don't seem to grasp that this isn't some apartment building owned by a money-grubbing evil capitalist landlord wearing a smokestack hat, surrounded by accounting minions who spend their day counting his money for him. It's a condo, with more than hundred different owners with varying financial resources available to them. Even in the case of the units that are rented out, in a building like this, most of the "rental" units are owned by people who inherited them from their parents & rented them out (possibly intending to move there themselves someday). In fact, it's PRECISELY the inherited units that are often the most likely to be owned by people who could never have afforded to have bought it themselves, and are the most likely to be cash-strapped if a huge assessment like this gets thrown at them.

The situation isn't even unique to condos. Britain has THOUSANDS of nominal lords living in genteel poverty who inherited a manor and title they really can't afford to own, let alone maintain properly, and are perpetually one Council citation they can't afford to remedy away from losing it.

Every time I scroll by this thread I think I see “Marie Kondo’s Collapse in Complete!”

[quote] The building collapse may have started with the pool collapsing into the garage,

The pool didn’t collapse, and it’s not over top of the garage…it’s an in-ground pool, still fully intact.

R275, if only that were entirely true. This is also the America where a plaintiff only recovers whatever's available from the defendants and their insurance policy limits. For years I worked at hospital trauma centers and helped patients figure out whether there was much liability coverage for them to pursue. Often the defendants in these claims were judgement proof, carried no insurance, were broke/went bankrupt, or had insurance coverage that covered almost nothing.

Sorry folks, I’ve got to deal with a bathtub/shower water leak from an upstairs condo unit where the resident owners have dementia and won’t do anything about it and the resident owner below has water coming through their bathroom ceiling including the light fixture. Y’all enjoy yourselves talking about the condo board in Florida. Signed, a condo board member in a small condo.

Builders go bankrupt after finishing projects. That way, they can’t be sued later on. There’s no money. They start a new company In the world of real estate development and construction, you’re allowed to basically discard your identity and start a new one. Jared Kushner’s father started over 100 businesses just to donate to politicians.

r361, I suspect the condo's pool is like the one at a condo where I used to live. The pool DECK was like a concrete lid over the underground parking garage, but the pool ITSELF was kind of a weird hybrid... imagine an aboveground pool made from reinforced concrete, sitting inside a basement with 3-4 feet of walking room around the pool's perimeter, right NEXT to the underground parking garage, so its surface was at ground level.

Frankly, the columns under this tower scare me. The condo I lived in was only 4 stories tall (with 1 story underground garage), and its columns were at LEAST twice as thick as THIS building's bottom columns appear to be. I mean, seriously, those columns look like they're MAYBE 18 inches diameter, MAX. This looks like a building whose floor plates were designed for 70lb/sf weight, and MEANT it. The kind of building where a past resident with a weight bench and ability to bench 200-300lb could have seriously damaged the floor plate.

This has always been one of my big objections to the way residential towers get built. Architects and engineers throw around 70lb/sf limits like they're perfectly fine for residential uses, and completely IGNORE the reality that real-world inhabitants HAVE things like weight benches. Or in the past, things like particleboard entertainment centers with 35" CRT TVs heavy enough to require a mini-forklift to move. Or morbidly-obese people falling on their ass. IMHO, it's not realistic to expect residential users to strictly observe (or even be AWARE of) floor-plate weight limits like that... residential buildings need to have MORE reserve strength, not LESS, because damage like this isn't necessarily visible with casual inspection.

Even if a suspended slab cracks, you can't necessarily SEE the cracks without tearing up the flooring. And 9 times out of 10, by the time a new buyer SEES the cracks, it's too late to back out of the sale, and probably impossible to unilaterally do anything to fix them, so they do what EVERYONE in that situation does... they ignore them. Multiply the likelihood of any given unit having had damage like that by the number of units in the condo, and almost any building more than a few years old is likely to have a substantial number of units with hidden floor-plate damage.

This isn't unique to Miami. It happens EVERYWHERE. God forbid, someday when LA has its next major earthquake, we're going to see wholesale examples of it when even buildings that were stringently built "to code" (but were insidiously abused by inhabitants afterwards) end up collapsing in ways they officially weren't supposed to, because the code ITSELF makes wildly naive assumptions about how much abuse they're going to take after people move in.

R356 [quote] Those views are to die for and that beach front location - I'd kill for that.[/quote]

That is incredibly effing disrespectful to say. I hope enough people report your post.

It’s too soon for R366

The big question is, were they Democrats or Repigs?

Am I hearing correctly that none of the tenants in the remaining part of the building have accepted the offer to relocate? Why?

At the risk of sounding disrespectful, what is it? The location? The views?

If part of the apartment complex I live in collapses, I am vacating the premises and coming back only to pack my things for the moving company.

r359, the residents of the Champlain were not living on the edge. I've been seeing reports of condos in that building valued around $600-750k.

Nobody in the United States should have to risk their lives in order to have a roof over their head.

Interesting view of the pool area

R368. According to VoterRecords.com, there were 116 registered voters at 8777 Collins Ave., Surfside, FL:

41 Republicans, 32 Democrats, 1 Green Party, 1 Independent , and 41 listed as "No Party Affiliation".

No... more... communal... living... EVAHHHH!!!

Pool looks undamaged. Get on those bikinis, girls!!!

If only the Bradys were there to sing "O Come All Ye Faithful," I'm sure it would inspire those trapped in the rubble to dig themselves out and walk into the loving arms of their worried families.

[quote] No... more... communal... living... EVAHHHH!!!

The hell you say pony soldier. We're going to make everybody live grouped together because exclusionary.

They are asking for DNA tests from family member to help identify body parts.

When you say military R328, do you mean the Army Corps of Engineers? Are they needed for this collapsed building?

A former maintenance manager for the Surfside, Florida, condominium building that collapsed on Thursday said he previously worried about the amount of saltwater that would flood the garage, as authorities continue to search for 156 missing people in the wreckage.

William Espinosa, who oversaw maintenance of the Champlain Towers South condo building from 1995 to 2000, recalled the building's garage experiencing a concerning amount of seawater during high ocean tides.

"Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the of the foundation," he told CBS 4 Miami, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water.

"But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it

Latest update.....

If you think this is bad you should see our pizza knish stand...

how much longer are they going to go with this "rescue" bullshit?

This is a fascinating article. The engineering firm is in deep shit. Here are few highlights for people who can't bypass the paywall:

An engineering firm in 2018 warned the condo association of Champlain Towers South, the Miami-area building that partially collapsed this week, that there was a “major error” in its design that allowed water to pool near its base.

...

More documents released Saturday indicate a condo association official sent the report mentioning these issues to a Surfside building official in November 2018, evidence at least one person in town government knew of these issues, too.

However, the same engineering firm created another report citing an inspection from about the same time in 2018 that gave the building its top grade on several measures, according to the town of Surfside. The town took the unusual step of adding commentary to that report on its website, where it posted Friday, saying it didn’t receive this additional report until after the building’s collapse.

Engineers and real-estate professionals who reviewed the reports said they pointed to serious issues that could have been contributing factors to the collapse, but they found no wording that indicated that the structure was in imminent danger at the time.

The duo of reports from the engineering firm provide a seemingly conflicting message to the urgency of addressing the problems. Even the report with the “major error” wording had that information on page seven of a nine-page report and didn’t speak to the potential consequences of not addressing the problem immediately.

...

“Among other things, our report detailed significant cracks and breaks in the concrete, which required repairs to ensure the safety of the residents and the public,” said Morabito Consultants, referencing the report it sent to the condo association in October 2018.

Still, another 14-page report, which cites an inspection started on Aug. 1, 2018, and completed early the next month, called the condition of the structure “good” on five measures, noting that there was a lack of apparent issues like bulging and settling. That report also cited the waterproofing problem but called cracking in the concrete framing system: “Not significant.”

The town of Surfside said it didn’t receive this 14-page report until Thursday evening, after the building collapsed, when the town says Frank Morabito, president of the engineering firm, sent it to town officials. The town, in a note atop the document—which it released with other paperwork on the building’s history—called it an “unverified report” that wasn’t formally submitted or authorized by the property owner. The report was undated.

More from the WSJ:

Jesse Keenan, an associate professor of real estate at the Tulane School of Architecture in New Orleans, said it is clear from the October 2018 report that structural elements of Champlain Towers South were “inundated in water and totally degraded.” He said he believes it was “compromising the structural integrity.”

The water-intrusion issues outlined by the engineering firm could point to one part in a series of contributing factors that compromised the building, said Roberto Leon, who teaches construction engineering at Virginia Tech and is an expert in structural failures. He also noted that the reports don’t signal any concern of impending failure.

Meanwhile, Miami real-estate agents and lawyers said an inspection report revealing such significant threats to the structure in a building this age would be unusual and some said potentially concerning.

...

Neisen Kasdin, a managing partner of the Miami office of Akerman LLP and former mayor of Miami Beach, said buildings in the area are routinely inspected when they are around 40 years old, and it is unusual for such inspections to turn up structural problems.

...

Nelson Gonzalez, a senior vice president at Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices EWM Realty, said he would have counseled clients not to purchase a unit in such a building, not because he would be concerned it would collapse but because he would worry the owners might be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars of assessments.

Mr. Gonzalez said his son, who works for him, was showing units in the building about four weeks ago and noticed the balconies were dilapidated in a way that suggested they had sustained water damage. Some of the photos from the engineering reports showed pictures of degraded materials on the balconies.

“A lot of the balconies were of concern to the point that he didn’t want to walk out on” them, he said.

If they were pumping seawater out of the parking garage then there’s your explanation.

R384. The "rescue" work is a performative act, that must be continued to soothe the overwrought, mostly Hispanic family members.

Yup this is it - the seawater intrusions....repeatedly.

Who will win Hottest Male Victim?

Surprised nobody has commented on the Argentinan power gays yet.

The grandson who got 16 prank calls is pretty hot.

“A lot of the balconies were of concern to the point that he didn’t want to walk out on” them, he said."

Fucking hell...

What about Rose's beach friends?

R371, just because that's what those condos are worth now (or were) doesn't mean that's what all of the residents paid for their condo. The place had been there since the 80s, and Miami has gone up and quite down in real estate market a few times since then.

There are people all over the world who own property that is worth an impressive amount, but don't necessarily have cash that comes close to their home value.

^^meant for R370

R301 The rescue work has to be done very slowly, piece-by-piece, in order not to risk disturbing the rest of the rubble and potentially causing further damage to survivors. Not something you can rush or use a crane for. So "are they pulling the debris apart by hand?" The answer is actually "YES, they are".

Survivors?

This is the penthouse that sold in May.

And this is unfortunate:

[quote]There are no available floor plans or units.

The lesson here is don't live next door to the beach!

I also often see expensive mansions being sold in the hamptons and they have walkways to the beach areas. I often wonder if the houses will wash away eventually with rising sea levels and beach erosion etc.

The lesson here is don't live near Mexicans!

R401, Yes the Hamptons are eroding and hopefully soon the non taxpaying filth summering there will end up in the sea.

For breathless updates watch Jim DeFete, definitely a Datalounger.

R404, I got saltwater intrusion once after a lifeguard fucked me.

Is the Weight Watcher's working?

It turns out Canadians are responsible for the disaster.

𝐃𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐥𝐨𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐝𝐨𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐝 𝐅𝐥𝐚. 𝐭𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫 𝐰𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐨𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐜𝐜𝐮𝐬𝐞𝐝 𝐨𝐟 𝐩𝐚𝐲𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐨𝐟𝐟 𝐨𝐟𝐟𝐢𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐥𝐬: 𝐫𝐞𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭

Building rivals claimed that the partners behind Surfside Champlain Towers South were receiving preferential treatment when it came to getting through the permit system as the site was being built in 1981, the Washington Post said.

Surfside’s developers had contributed to the campaigns of at least two town-council members, then demanded that the donations be returned when the allegations surfaced, according to the outlet.

The developers behind the project had included Nathan Reiber, a Polish-born Canadian who was also once charged with tax evasion and cited for legal misconduct in Canada, the report said.

Reiber, who died in 2014, had been charged with tax evasion by Canadian authorities in the 1970s when he and his partners were accused of skimming cash from apartment buildings they owned.

They allegedly skimmed tens of thousands of dollars from coin-operated laundry machines in the buildings and pocketed about $120,000 from phony construction checks, the Washington Post said.

Authorities later issued an arrest warrant for Reiber when he fled to Florida.

In 1984, Reiber, a lawyer, was cited for professional misconduct by the Law Society of Upper Canada for evading the tax-evasion case, the paper said.

He ultimately settled the case by returning to Canada and paying a $60,000 fine.

In Florida, Reiber and his partners were then initially unable to begin construction of the condo buildings due to a 1979 moratorium due to faulty sewers.

The developers agreed to pay half of the $400,000 tab for the sewer repairs on the property and were given the green light — sparking anger from rival developers whose projects remained stalled by the moratorium.

The rivals complained Reiber and his team got preferential treatment.

The following year, the Champlain developers asked two local council members to return their campaign contributions amid accusations that the company had paid off officials to get the permits.

Nonetheless, Reiber was given the key to the city once the project was done, according to his obituary after he died from cancer.

A $65,000 assessment per unit and having to live elsewhere while repairs were made. Monthly HOA fees on top of that. I don’t understand why people buy condos.

r407 I was waiting for something like this to be revealed. So not surprising that a real estate developer was lining pockets of Miami public officials in the early 80s. Im sure most of the people involved are long dead 40 years later.

I once knew a guy who was a navy medic, and he had been one of the people to be called out when the Admiral Nimitz collapsed in the 1989 San Francisco earthquake./ he said when the upper level of the freeway pancaked on the lower level, the people below were more or less crused to powrr and liquid underneath it. (he was spending the resrt of his life dealing with PTSD.)

That's what will have happened to the people still missing in the collapsed condo. They'll be lucky if they can ID many of them.

yes I agree, there is nothing much left, plus there were so many fires. I think it was quick for many of them, they were old, probably got heart attacks and died.

^^ heart attack? Tonto.

[quote]A 2-3 year delay between diagnosis and repairs was COMPLETELY reasonable given the circumstances.

You are a GOD DAMN idiot.

Please shut the fuck up.

I don't get the condo thing either. This case aside, it sounds like fees, on top of fees, on top of...you get it. Also SO many fucking rules. All of the upkeep and money without the privacy of a "stand-alone" residence. Why bother? Just rent an apartment and if that place becomes intolerable you can just move free and clear.

Could someone please 'splain the upsides to owning a condo?

R359 condo owner and former board president of 10-years here. A multi-year delay on critical repairs is not normal. If an assessment is going to be excessive (and it's not going to be covered by a bank loan) then the board will work with a financial institution to secure loans for those who cannot pay upfront.

This building appears to have taken out a 15-year loan for the work so what you wrote wouldn't apply.

R414, essentially condo living is maintenance free living. There's a crew that takes care of landscaping and in unit repairs etc. Your HOA fees cover this, any amenities like pools, gyms, social rooms etc and in many cases property taxes.

If you own a house you're still going to have to pay for repairs, taxes, lawn care, pool care etc.

I own a house and a condo and I prefer the condo.

I agree except sometimes condos can go south (literally) but that can happen in any situation, whether it’s a house or a rental. These people got royally screwed.

r416 Thanks so much for taking the time to explain. Much appreciated. It still sounds very high maintenance in order to be maintenance free to me, but that's just me obviously.

> Could someone please 'splain the upsides to owning a condo?

For the most part, they're nicer than apartments... especially buildings that were MADE to be condos instead of apartments. In Florida, at least, buildings that were designed to be condos tend to have better soundproofing, bigger units with better floorplans, more guest parking, and often have on-site deeded storage units for residents as well.

If you live in a condo and buy something like a jet ski, there's a chance you'll be able to negotiate with the board to rent some corner of the parking garage to keep it stored. With an apartment, your odds are somewhere between "nonexistent" and "absolutely, positively NOT". Likewise, if you live in a condo and buy a Tesla, with a little lobbying and negotiation, you might be able to talk them into allowing you to pay to install a charger in the garage. It won't be cheap, and they'll unquestionably be anal retentive about it and won't allow you to cut corners... but often, within the bounds of sanity and reason, it WILL be semi-negotiable. For an apartment... don't even bother to ask, because the answer will invariably be 'no'.

Also, condos where the majority of units are owner-occupied tend to be a lot more mellow about things like allowing you to screen in your balcony. I have a friend who lives in a condo about a mile south of Bal Harbour whose association allowed him to put a ham radio antenna on the roof, which absolutely, positively would have NEVER been allowed by an apartment building.

The fact is, if you want to live within a block of the beach in a city like Miami or Fort Lauderdale and you aren't a literal billionaire, your choices are: condo, condo, condo, or... condo.

That said, even though they're rare in Florida, I almost think Co-ops are a better legal arrangement than condos... at least, for your primary residence, as opposed to an investment property. The big advantage co-ops have over condos is that they can borrow money in their own name, so they don't have to screw around with special assessments. If some urgent repair comes up, they can borrow the funds, then just divide up the mortgage payment and add it to the monthly rent for each unit's proprietary lease. I've heard horror stories about BIG co-ops being worse than corporate apartments, but it seems like SMALL co-ops (with a dozen or two units) are more like wealthy communes inhabited by like-minded neighbors.

Also, I'd be hesitant to buy a condo anyplace where the surrounding real estate ISN'T astronomically expensive. If the condo that collapsed had been somewhere like Margate or Ocala, its site would probably end up being a vacant lot for DECADES, instead of having hungry developers calling every starchitect in Miami asking them to start sketching ideas for a 50-80 story tower for them to pitch to Bal Harbour's city commission a few months from now.

Ohhhhhh, r419, I had a co-op. That borrowing in the name of the corporation is a huge trap. What happens is extensive building repairs (typical of older buildings) tend to get wrapped up into a mortgage which then increases your HOA/Maintenance fee permanently. By the time I sold my co-op, about 25% of my maintenance was going to the mortgage and that was only going to grow when the mortgage comes due and is rolled over. I'd rather have an assessment than permanently pay for repairs. The other advantage of an assessment over a mortgage is a capital assessment comes with a tax advantage.

Don’t forget—the mortgage interest part of your co-op maintenance is tax-deductible.

Unless things have changed, mortgage interest in general is tax deductible. It's certainly tax deductible for my condo, I'm not 100% certain with my house.

How grim for Miami. Every day in July is going to be 5 more bodies found.

There are no more bodies. They exploded from the force of falling concrete.

r127 the WASP types like my parents live on the golf course in Sarasota

R419 Very helpful and informative. Thank you!

The Circus folk and carnies live in Sarasota, too.

Meanwhile, whereas in Mexico people (male AND female) were doing this

and this just hours after the building's collpase (and there were several all over the city btw).

Americans are doing this, namely doing disaster tourism

this (clutching their pearls)

R359 As I stated in a previous post in either this thread or thread #1, per a Redfin listing for a Unit in Champlain South that sold a few days before the collapse, the condo board had recently put a 15-year special assessment in place. Why 15-years? Because, as you said, owners can't pay the high assessments all at once. How did they get the money now to start the repairs? They took a 15-year loan to get all the money to fix the problems now and give the owners 15 years to pay it off, including, of course, interest on the loan.

A few years ago, I as a condo board member oversaw getting a 7-year loan for a major rebuilding of part of a side of our condo building where there was water penetration. Our owners couldn't afford it all at once, so we took the loan. After carefully vetting potential contractors, we selected one, and the rebuilding went fantastically and we haven't had any water penetration since then. Instead of a special assessment for 7 years, we added it to the condo fee. Why? In my state, we have something called a superlien law, in which condos have first lien priority (even over mortgage lenders) when owners don't pay their condo fees. It's not so clear that special assessments have that coverage under the superlien law, so we lumped it into the condo fee. Obviously, I don't live in Florida, where I can't image there'd be such a condo owner-friendly law.

and last but not least giving the true and tried, problem-solving, thoughts

and prayers.

More pictures of the hugely helpful citizens response at the link

R432 continuing: Guess what the collateral is for a condo loan? The legal authority of the condo board to collect condo fees from the owners. The collateral is NOT the property itself. Since it's unlikely the owners can/will continue to pay condo fees for a collapsed condo, the condo association will default on their new, multimillion dollar loan.

The reason I have been going into all this gory detail about condos in my posts is I'd like for folks on DL to be more educated about condos and make sure unit owners either become board members or put pressure on board members and other owners to not let condo buildings deteriorate.

I have only once lived in a condo - the nightmare of regularly dealing with the sort of people who I would otherwise avoid (the petty politics, the passive aggression, the gossip, the people with way too much time on their hands etc) swore me off anything other than living in my own free-standing house, for life.

As a board member, I mean.

[quote][R359] condo owner and former board president of 10-years here. A multi-year delay on critical repairs is not normal.

r415 Im were you a condo president in Florida? Im asking because I live in a Miami condo myself and the building has been in need of a new roof, for years. So major repairs do go delayed sometimes. The owners have voted DOWN a new roof replacement assessment again this spring, and I know its because everyone is cash strapped after COVID. I consider the roof critical, it takes one major hurricane to take a bad roof off a building.

R438 Understood. I've dealt with that, too. My strategy was to become very educated about condos when I became a board member. I know so much more than any other owner, even sometimes the manager, that I can explain in detail what can happen if the condo doesn't spend the money (carefully) to take care of the building. But I understand that most owners don't want or have to become condo mavens. The only possibly good thing that may come out of the disaster in Miami is that some people may start to realize what can go wrong when buildings are allowed to deteriorate over time.

R439 The worst thing is when the condo docs (or state law) state that expensive repairs have to be approved by a vote of the owners rather than the board members. The chances of getting enough rank-and-file owners to open their wallets to pay for needed repairs is even less than for a small number of board members. That's one reason why condos have boards.

When faced with owners who are very obstinate about paying for needed repairs, even after having given lots of data why it's important, I sometimes advise them, very politely and respectfully, to think about selling their condo and buying a single-family home, where they can do whatever they want, and their liability will be to only themselves and their family. But in a multifamily dwelling, there will be liability for everyone in the building, and now, the Miami disaster is an example of that.

r439, if it's a flat built-up roof over a concrete deck, consider paying someone to leave the existing roof as-is, and just apply a mil or two of silicone elastomeric sealant instead. It's ENORMOUSLY cheaper than a full tear-off replacement, and over the span of 10-20 years, is actually BETTER, because if a spot gets worn down or develops a leak, all you need to repair it is a guy with a paint roller and a few 5-gallon pails of elastomeric paint (vs a crane, chute, dumpster, tar truck, etc).

I had a condo and went to a meeting with the property management company rep there who also owned a construction company and guess whose company was doing the work on the building..yep hers. I said isn’t that a conflict of interest and no comment from her!

A coworker had a Seattle condo where a lawyer and condo board member left the state with all the reserves! They never saw it again.

adding to r442, if you're worried about the membrane's structural integrity in a hurricane, the truth is, modified bitumen really isn't any better. If a category 5 hurricane starts tearing air conditioner units off their mounts and blowing them around, the roof membrane is going to be in shreds and have water leaking through ANYWAY.

With a concrete roof deck, the real damage doesn't come from a one-off storm like a hurricane that removes the roof's waterproof membrane, it comes from cumulative daily summer rain when you have a modified-bitumen roll roof that has dozens of small leaks that are allowed to persist for years because the cost of ANY repair is prohibitively expensive. A concrete roof can take a little rainwater from a one-off storm event just fine... it soaks it up like a sponge, drips in a few spots once it becomes saturated, then eventually dries out. It's not like a wood roof that can become moldy and rotten after a single bad soaking.

You obviously don't want the roof soaking up water for months at a time, but that's the beauty of silicone elastomeric coatings... they're so cheap and easy to touch up and repair, there's no EXCUSE for allowing small leaks to persist. If you inspect the roof and find one small leak, a literal handyman with a pail of TropiCool-2000 and a paint roller can fix it in 10 minutes. There's no NEED to allow leaks to accumulate until the problem is finally "bad enough" to justify the cost of an expensive roof repair.

Basically, it's the "Google Server Strategy" (cheap army ants) compared to the IBM "Server Must Never, Ever Fail" strategy. With a WOOD roof, you'd be living dangerously since even brief wetness can cause catastrophic damage, but with a CONCRETE roof deck, you have more "wiggle room" to go with a long-term strategy that trades occasional small failures for the ability to quickly and cheaply stamp them out almost immediately after discovering them.

R404 That former Champlain South maintenance man will soon have a new career testifying in court for plaintiffs. He said the board allowed one to two feet of seawater to stand in the underground garage when the sump pumps couldn't handle it all, apparently for at least several years. He also said cars were sometimes floating in the garage. Imagine potential buyers seeing that and still paying 3/4 to 2+ million dollars to live there. Well, as Trump knows, there's a sucker born every minute.

Pearl clutcher here.

India is already reporting a new mutation of the Delta variant that they're calling Delta Plus. More fun ahead.

R446, cars were floating ?!

I would fucking move, there were so many clues...

Or is this the norm in miami?

R449 I mentioned somewhere upthread that at least 4 units have sold since March 24. Once a special assessment is announced, or even the possibility is discussed, some owners sell quickly. I’m not in Florida, but I think someone said upthread that there are few, if any, required disclosures from a seller in FL. I lived in FL many years ago, and all I can say is floating cars were not the norm then, but sinkholes certainly were. I lived inland and didn’t think the ground was solid because of the sinkholes and the swamps, which were sometimes euphemistically called prairies.

It's the norm. We all float down here.

R414 et al

Multi family or other commual living comes in three major flavors; condominium, co-op or rental.

Rental is self explanatory. Main difference between a condo building versus cooperative is that for former you actually own property. With a co-op OTOH you are buying shares in a corporation but don't really own the real estate. Co-op owners essentially in a way are renting their apartments from the corporation. Cooperative buildings have powers that condominiums can only dream about.

With a condo since you're buying real estate often you can finance (mortgage) all or a certain percentage of buying price. You can also take out a second mortgage, etc.. Co-ops OTOH often have rules about what percentage of purchase price (if any at all) can be financed. Banks historically didn't like lending on co-ops because even if debtor defaults whoever holds the note may not be able to get the apartment. Just because someone has the shares, it does not mean co-op will let them have the apartment.

Main other difference is that condos normally are far easier to buy and sell. Board approval is limited to basically right of first refusal in most states. That means boards don't have the sort of gate keeper control you see with co-ops. With a condo if board cannot or will not meet seller's price, then they must step aside. Co-ops can simply deny sale of an apartment for a host of perfectly valid reasons.

Because it is a corporation as noted in link above about 2 Fifth Avenue, when major or any work needs to be done on a building the board has vast powers to simply start the process. Assessments are based usually upon number of shares held, which in turn normally reflects size of apartment. Resident in a large co-op apartment, maybe they combined two or more units..., will pay more in special assessments (just as they do for monthly maintenance fees), than those with a small studio or one bedroom.

In both condo and co-ops all residents pay monthly maintenance fees. This covers everything from landscaping to staff salaries, etc...In a condo you pay property taxes separately on your own. Co-op buildings get one property tax bill, and again shareholders are assessed their portion usually based upon size of apartment. While individual co-op apartments cannot be sized for nonpayment of real estate taxes, a condo can quite easily. If the board representing the corporation doesn't pay a co-ops property taxes, yes the entire building could be sized, but that doesn't happen with well run places.

In places like Florida an increasingly New York condos have great appeal because you have all the benefits of living in multi-family (staff take care of grounds, common areas, etc...), but you own your home instead of renting which as certain tax advantages.

A condo apartment can also easily be inheriting just like a private home. OTOH again just because someone leaves you their co-op it does not follow board will let you have it.

Are co-ops common in other states? I thought they were only in NY lol.

when they don't approve you (when you go for the interview), they don't have to give a reason. it's a legal way to discriminate. You're also required to put more money down.

Co-ops also have more rules like 80% of the apt must be carpeted, no loud noises after 10pm etc. what else?

in other real estate news, Japan is luring people to move to rural areas with $500 homes

It's Florida, they will not be updating any laws or learning any lessons. When I was in Miami about three years ago there were a ton of high rises going up downtown and many of them were being built with cinder blocks and rebar. I was flabbergasted since the buildings were so tall. I only saw one building that was doing legit concrete pours and not blocks. Also in South Beach there were barely and street crossings or signal lights. People have to watch the traffic and literally run across the street even elderly people. It is ridiculous. They brag about not paying taxes and it shows in their lack of infrastructure and pedestrian safety. Al Gore warned everyone Miami would be underwater and people are still buying real estate even now when the streets downtown are flooding regularly. Insane. It's as bad as all the development on Treasure Island in San Francisco which is at sea level with no plans (that I have heard about) to mitigate such as a sea wall.

R279 Well, duh. I guess you didn't read my 2nd post at R257. The respirators with cans filter toxic air. They don't cut your air off, so smells would still be detectable.

The Washington Post reports assessments to pay for the $9m in "immediate" rehab, ranged from $80K (for a one-bedroom) to $330K for a penthouse. The first payments were due 1 July. One owner had to get a bank loan to pay his $80K bill.

Of course, that solution was financially unfeasible. The building should have been carefully levelled 10 years ago.

Why did Jared and Ivanka purchase a condo rather than a house with more privacy?

R458. They bought land close to Poppa and they are building a house there.

Probably because they can’t afford a mansion that they think reflects their status, r458. Even though the pair of them grifted for all they were worth during daddy Trump’s sojourn in the White House, the truth is their wealth is based on a house of cards.

And now a family claim that their grandparents are alive since they got 16 calls from them. But every time they try to answer all they can hear is static. They called from their landline. Someone connected to the rescue mission said it was weird because the power is off in the building. I'm thinking ghosts. All those poor souls lost. I obviously hope I'm wrong. I really hope they are found alive, but it's been several days. It would be a miracle.

Gurl, Im available for memorial bookings. Call me before that bitch Dionne Warwick gets in town!

R457: There are ways to temporarily stabilise a building when crucial structural faults become apparent. That kind of work can be done fairly quickly and at a fraction of what it would cost to fix the whole building. If the board members were aware of how serious the problem was then they should have had the stabilisation work done immediately before any major refurbishment of the building commenced.

If I had relatives there, I would hope they are dead at this point, rather than still alive after being buried under tons of debris without food, water or ventilation after 4 days.

Mayor Gabriel Groisman, of Bal Harbour, FL, being interviewed "live" on CNN now is HOT!

Of course they were not aware of imminent danger. They live (lived) there, too.

Thank you r452. Still, the monthly condo fees are not something I’d want to deal with. Landscaping? Mowing the lawn is easy. Amenities? I’d never use the gym. Trash? I can wheel my own bins to the curb. True, if you are elderly, then these services are useful but there are plenty of young people buying them. It seems like, thanks to questionable construction, you really don’t know what you’re buying. At least with a house, it’s one unit. You can have it inspected. You can replace the roof and it’s cheaper than replacing the roof on a high rise. You can deal with a structural issues as they become apparent, not this 40-year inspection bs. You can gut reno a house to increase its value but in a condo, however nice you make your place, you still have outdated hallway carpeting (just as an example). Also I guess I just don’t want to live on the ocean that badly. Near it, sure, but I don’t need an ocean view.

R439, no. I was Board president first in NY and I'm treasurer now in Pittsburgh.

I was talking about a critical repair, meaning a repair made to make the building structurally sound. And I'll explain it to you the way it was explained to me by the building's attorney...If the repair isn't made and there's a loss of life or property there's a question as to whether insurance will pay for the damage due to the board's negligence and there's no question that the board will be sued and you won't be covered under D&O insurance when you lose.

If the owners voted down the repair then it sounds like it's not something that is critical.

Critical repairs are the only type of repair (in my building anyway) that the board had discretion without a shareholder vote. The building I'm in now tried to pass a window replacement project as critical (so no vote) and ended up getting sued and lost.

[quote]etc...In a condo you pay property taxes separately on your own.

Depends on the building. Mine is paid through my maintenance.

We miss nana, but I love my new Lamborghini!

^Then you live in a co-op.

not necessarily, that may be the way the taxes are collected; but is the assessed value based on your specific owned unit. In a co-op the entire building is one assessment and the taxes are prorated based on shares owned

r461 some landlines do not run on electricity.

R471 no, I live in a condo. I'm quite clear on the type of building i live in. Thanks.

if he own his specific unit, it is a condo, regardless of how taxes are paid. in a co-op, the corporation owns the building and the residents have a proprietary lease to live there, they do not own their units, but rather shares in the corporation, which are allocated (supposedly) on the original market value of their apartments

I eat old people’s excrement.

Well if I lived in a condo, I sure as hell wouldn’t turn my real estate tax payments over to the condo board. I’m liable to the city/state. Not to the condo.

Has the management company been identified yet?

Depends on how the condo governing rules are written. Condo boards have an interest in seeing that taxes are paid on the units, otherwise tax liens will be attached. If deadbeats don't pay their taxes is a huge red flag.

R477 I'm not sending it to the board. It goes to the management company and the funds are held in a separate tax escrow account. Haven't had a problem yet.

"but you own your home instead of renting which as certain tax advantages. "

if you are referring to tax and interest deductions as "tax advantages", your statement is incorrect

the tax advantages of taxes and mortgage interest paid by a co-op are passed on to the residents who may deduct them on their individual returns.

Then you are not paying it as part of your common charges. It never goes into the condo’s account.

Oh, and contrary to what someone posted upthread...condos also have house rules. We're working on a pet policy in my condo now. The difference is in a condo the shareholders vote to adopt a rule in a co-op the board adopts the rule.

I bet that apart from all the pool and sea water that’s affected that underground car park, there’s also been cars whirling around when it’s been flooded that have smashed into the support pillars. And I also wouldn’t be surprised if one of the old biddies who lived there hasn’t smacked her car into one of the support columns somewhere down the line.

From the look of those concrete pillars they seemed were really thin, so it wouldn’t have took much to damage them.

[Quote]etc...In a condo you pay property taxes separately on your own. Depends on the building. Mine is paid through my maintenance.

Same here in Norway. I pay about 600 US$ a month. Those include municipal taxes, proptery taxes, house insurance, snow removal in winter, mowing grass in summer, cabel tv package and internet. The 600 dollars also include payment on the co-op's loan (everyone pays for their unit's part of the loan). I also pay my own mortgage, which is the market value I paid for my unit (townhouse).

R482, please stop telling me, someone you've never met, what I actually do. I know my life better than you. Thanks.

Didn’t Liz Taylor’s thighs go condo?

R481 that's standard for all homeowners not just a condo.

At which particular post did this thread swirl down the shitter?

I’m am describing the legal significance of what you are doing, about which you apparently have no idea.

Really, r490. You're able to address the legal significance of something where you have no read any of my documents governing, know my situation nor do you know my jurisdiction. Wow.

Yes, R491. Really. Based on your own statements. It’s AMAZING!

**governing my building

Anyone who believes land line calls were coming from Gramps after the collapse is mentally challenged.

As yes another datalounge know it all who doesn't know it all.

Isn’t there concern that a hurricane could come along and catapult the debris all around the area, causing damage and death?

Or Godzilla?

All the people in the building are obviously dead and smashed to smithereens. When are they going to stop pandering to the hysterics of the family members and move to recovery?

R494 I'm just telling you what I read in the article. It was in a Norwegian newspaper.

[quote] if the sibling properties are found to be safe, the owners will UNQUESTIONABLY vote to change the names to something that doesn't include "Champlain"...

They might also want to change "Towers" to just "Tower."

CNN is now interviewing some woman who says she had friends who lived in the building. Her name is Fortuna Smukler. lol

Tuna for short, r501?

I lived (renter) in a medium-rise condo (maybe 30 floors?). Yes, there were definitely rules, esp. regarding noise.

Co-ops sound like a NYC thing. I've never heard of co-ops outside of NYC. Not saying they don't exist.

Co-ops are very common here in Norway.

R494…….

R467 As a former condo owner (technically townhouse but same thing) I won't live in one again. My complex was tiny but in 2 years I had special assessments totalling 20k which I paid without grumbling figuring they were necessary. Turns out some of them weren't. Our retired president liked spending money and was bored. I was too busy to get second opinions so we all went along with it. The there's the majority rule thing where you spend money like this but it's not what you wanted (paint color and quality for instance.) And as one poster said, spending time with people that you wouldn't normally touch with a barge pole is exhausting. Condo owners in California pay property tax, HOA fees, utilities, home insurance (our complex only insured the outside of the structure) and of course the dreaded special assessments which you couldn't plan for. Now I put the money I save on HOA fees into an account and spend the money the way I want. I take care of my own pool, it's not that hard and I don't have to share it with "neighbors". At some point I'll get sick of it and sell the place.

As someone mentioned, many condo owners are single women and the elderly who feel safer in a complex (ours was gated) or don't want to bother with any outside maintenance issues. I get that since even finding a good gardener for your house is difficult and pricey. Also, in some locales condos are the only option if you want to be near a beach or downtown. But I would rent.

I call "bullshit" on the "cars were floating" claim.

This wasn't a poor building. They had expensive cars. If it happened even ONCE, the condo would have been sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars by angry owners (or their insurance companies), and would have made DAMN SURE it NEVER happened again. What's more likely is that there indeed was a perpetual puddle, but "cars floating all the time" is just pushing it too far.

Now, flooding due to STORM SURGE another matter entirely. If the island is under even an inch of water, any underground structure that's not wet-floodproofed (rare) would be submerged in salt water, and even after pumping, there's going to be an inch or so of oily brine left to evaporate at the lowest portion (leaving behind the salt). Future freshwater from rain ponding on the pool deck & leaking down would re-dissolve the salt, and carry it into the concrete (to corrode the rebar). It was a 40-year marathon, not sprint.

Another possibility is that vibrations from construction next door contributed to further weaken already-corroded & compromised joints where floor plates joined to walls.

A few local structural engineers have noted that a floor plate in a second or third-floor unit might have been weakened (think: weight bench owned by someone desperate to work out during covid). Again, not a single factor, but if an already-weakened column in the garage were hit by a car, near a floor section subjected to too much weight, caused the floor to sag & pull away from the wall... well, you'd see something like what we saw in the video.

I think any high rise on the beach in Florida is doomed.

All this financial condo talk makes my head spin. Who is responsible here? Bottom line, who sues who for this particular catastrophe?

[quote] When are they going to stop pandering to the hysterics of the family members and move to recovery?

Exactly. They’re exposing those rescue workers to toxic smoke and fumes, concrete dust, probably asbestos and who knows what else in addition to possible injuries to prop up these relatives’ fantasies that miracles can happen and their relative will be rescued! Ridiculous.

Can we return from all this condo law stuff to a discussion of gay boys/young men lost and mourned?

r509, I know! My head is spinning as well. The people in this thread who are on boards/keep up with their HOA's doings, why?? It seems like a huge headache and the only result being bad feelings between you and the people in your building.

Cassie's Instagram

Even if it becomes a recovery rather than a rescue site I doubt bulldozers will move in. Jews want every bit of flesh collected.

I'm betting several of the Jewish residents were dual nationals. USA/Israel.

Joan Rivers was president of her condo board. I think it was an unpaid position. Here's a NYT article about it. For some reason, there's no paywall on it.

I've been feeling bad about being a renter all this time, at my age. Now, I kind of feel better about it.

Maybe there was some exaggeration, r507 (the News Media tend to do this). However, if the underground car park was inundated by flooding from a coastal surge a couple of times a year then there’s not a lot they could do. I also think the former maintenance guy stated that the car park flooded more than half a dozen times from sea water while he worked there.

Condo boards are scary.

r517 I've always been a renter by choice, yet I have never felt better about my decision after reading this thread. Home ownership isn't for everyone. Certainly not for me when I was young. Certainly not at my age now.

As I said earlier here, or on the other thread, we are all just renting anyway.

r445 Oooohh, I like the way you talk. Can I come over and see the 'beauty of silicone elastomeric coatings'?

r446 Um-hmmm! You said it, gurl. That former Champlain South maintenance man is gonna be squealing like a greased pig going to a luau

What amazed me was how the balconies were not supported. They looked really thin and flimsy, while having no suspension fittings whatsoever.

five days later, the level of delusion and journalistic malpractice is stunning:

AP" "Rescuers: Survivors could still be inside collapsed building"

Some families had hoped their visit to the site near the 12-story building would enable them to shout messages to loved ones possibly buried inside the pile.

Israeli Diaspora Affairs Minister Nachman Shai, head of a humanitarian delegation from Israel that includes several search-and-rescue experts, said professionals have told him of cases where survivors were found after 100 hours or more.

In the closeup shots, I'm surprised so many items remained intact within the units, like the appliances.

Even more surprising are the large number of framed photographs/prints that remained hanging on the walls.

[quote] Those views are to die for

When we read that in the brochure we had no idea you meant it literally.

R461 with the “breaking news.”

🙄

[quote] some landlines do not run on electricity.

No telephone landlines run on electricity. You only need electricity if you have all cordless phones.

[quote] What amazed me was how the balconies were not supported. They looked really thin and flimsy, while having no suspension fittings whatsoever.

They stood for 40 years! And some are STILL standing.

[quote] They stood for 40 years! And some are STILL standing.

Aren't the balconies in the other tower exactly the same? How much longer will they last?

Yeah, they’re still standing, r529. However, usually balconies like that have suspension braces as an extra safety measure.

Well I guess they didn’t need them. They’re the only thing standing after the entire rest of the building collapsed.

I’d say they were pretty strong.

Or if, like most of us on DL, r528, you have a Princess phone.

Most of us, r533? Most?

Who the hell here [bold]doesn’t[/bold] have one? Why, that’s criminal!

There's a great Twilight Zone episode about an old woman (Gladys Cooper) who keeps getting phone calls from her fiance who died 50 years before. The phone company is finally able to trace the calls and they're coming from the CEMETERY!

[quote] Am I hearing correctly that none of the tenants in the remaining part of the building have accepted the offer to relocate? Why?

They want more money, duh.

Fuck, that’s creepy, r535!

For christsakes, why don’t they just call the sister building IHOP and get it over with???

I read that 20 residents have Israeli citizenship.

I thought the remaining section of the complex has been evacuated and condemned and that it's residents of the sibling complex built to the same plans who are being encouraged to leave. I may be wrong.

If you’re wrong I am too.

I thought the same thing.

[Quote]Or if, like most of us on DL, [R528], you have a Princess phone.

LMAO. Capucine had that very same Princess phone in her bedroom (yes, I was in her bedroom).

Who?

I had a Princess phone, r542...doesn't make me Capucine.

[Quote]Who?

The organ grinder's monkey, Rose. He had a unit in the building.

Princess Capucine

^^ She had a unit on the 8th floor. And a few in her dresser drawer.

Ilan Manuel Naibryf was born in Argentina on September 11. He is 21 years old.

Friends say 21-year-old Ilan Naibryf graduated from Hawaii Preparatory Academy on the Big Island in 2018 and was supposed to come back to Hawaii in just two weeks.

After graduating from Hawaii Prep Academy in 2018, Naibryf moved to the Windy City to study molecular engineering at the Univeristy of Chicago.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote] The organ grinder's monkey, Rose. He had a unit in the building.

Oh, that poor monkey!

Day Number 5 of "Hopes for a Miracle Fading."

How long will the hopes continue to fade?

no way anybody can survive!

Florida building collapse reportedly started from the bottom of the building

“It does appear to start either at or very near the bottom of the structure,” consulting engineer Donald O. Dusenberry told the New York Times, after watching video footage of the 12-story Champlain Towers South Condo collapsing in Surfside early Thursday. “It’s not like there’s a failure high and it pancaked down.”

Dusenberry — who has investigated other building collapses — told the outlet that the way the building went down suggests there could be an issue with its foundation — such as “corrosion or other damage at a lower level.” On the other hand, “you certainly can’t rule out a design or construction error that has survived for 40 years,” the engineer said.

Another expert said the columns in the underground parking lot could be the culprit behind the collapse, the Times reported.

“The primary purpose of all the columns in the basement is to hold the structure up in the air,” said University of Toronto professor of structural engineering Evan Bentz. “Because the structure stopped being held up in the air, the simplest explanation is that the columns in the basement ceased to function.”

The theory that the collapse started at the bottom could also be bolstered by one missing resident’s call to her husband moments before the building went down.

Cassie Stratton, 40, told her husband, Mike Stratton, on a call that she saw a sinkhole where the pool had been and that she felt the building shaking, the Miami Herald reported. A moment later, Stratton’s line went dead, her husband told the outlet.

Structural engineer Jason Borden — who had inspected the tower in 2020 — told CNN that the pool sinkhole “definitely” could have contributed to the collapse.

Borden said during the inspection, he’d seen cracks in the building facade, on the balconies and in the garage and plaza of the building. But Borden noted that that kind of deterioration was normal in his line of work and that it hadn’t alarmed him.

On Monday morning, officials confirmed that the death toll had risen to 10 while another 151 people are still unaccounted for.

[quote] no way anybody can survive!

As long as I know how to love, I know I'll stay alive.

R545 OMG that joke is SO funny I can’t stop laughing..

Sounds like incompetence across the board plus there is always an expectation that one can trust cars, buildings, bridges,etc. How many question the soundness if an elevator, for instance, when we enter it? This is a third world event.

R551 Until the ratings start to sag.

R556 Some second world (i.e., developing) countries have universal healthcare. The US IS a third world country.

I would not be surprised if problems are found with the sister building built about the same time by the same developer and it has to be evacuated and torn down.

No need to tear it down.

Just wait.

If I was a family member I’d be angry with the structural engineer who examined the building yet said it was safe to inhabit. This is a so-called trained professional who saw cracks and other faults but signed off on a report when he surveyed the place.

R561 I bet an avalanche of lawsuits are headed in his direction.

R453

All sorts of mulit-family housing have rules. These are usually spelled out in lease (rentals) or documents related to purchase of shares or a condo apartment.

Many rentals for instance will state a percentage of floor space must be covered in carpeting as a noise prevention measure for those living below.

Chicago and many other areas of USA have co-ops, they aren't just largely limited to New York.

Co-ops don't have to be large multi-family buildings either. Any number of households can form a corporation. Townhouses, brownstones, carved up former mansions, etc.....

Of course smaller the building means you really must love your neighbors. In a building with say five or six apartments usually board is made up of all the residents who pitch in to run the place.

[quote] No telephone landlines run on electricity. You only need electricity if you have all cordless phones.

All telephone landlines run on electricity, but it’s low voltage power that is supplied over the phone line. That’s why landline phones can work when the main electric power goes out.

Latest updates

Your Princess phone will work, r564, but it won't light up!

[quote] I would not be surprised if problems are found with the sister building built about the same time by the same developer and it has to be evacuated and torn down.

According to the mayor of Surfside, an inspector did a "cursory review" of the north tower over the weekend and "nothing jumped out at them as really, really terrible," so they're not ordering an evacuation. That sounds really reassuring. Relax, North Tower residents. There may be problems with your building, but nothing "really, really terrible," so stop worrying.

[quote] “We sent our building official into that building a couple of days ago with the expert that we’ve hired, and they did a cursory review,” Burkett said. “Basically, they came back and said to me that nothing jumped out at them as really, really terrible.”

I'm certain these people are all dead but it could be worse. When the USS West Virginia was sunk at Pearl Harbor the salvage crews knew 60 or 70 men were trapped below but where they could not be rescued. It was over two weeks before the last of them finally went silent in the dark.

Just *one* really would have me out of there in a flash.

Chilling, r568. Absolutely chilling.

Part 3 on standby once this fills up.

Thanks, r571.

I want to know where Morgan Chesky is staying while he's reporting on this disaster.

My cousin lives very close to that building and says word on the street in the neighborhood is the smell is starting to get really, really bad and the rescue dogs are getting visibly agitated about having to go near it. Fucking heartbreaking.

I don't think anyone is left alive. They may have been at the beginning but it's been five days without water.

This article goes into some detail about 3 trapped soldiers on the West Virginia that r568 referenced. Well written, but damn, chilling, also...bring tissues.

It won't let me link directly but if you google USS West Virginia men trapped, the first result should be from the Seattle Times.

16 days to die at Pearl Harbor: Families weren’t told about sailors trapped inside sunken battleship

The REAL reason they allowed the family members to visit the site was to give them a sense of participation and allow them to feel like they personally contributed to the rescue operation... and more importantly, let it sink in hard that there really, truly is no chance anyone is left alive under there to minimize the likelihood that they'll publicly freak out and go on TV screaming, "no, no, God/{angel}/Xenu/Oprah spoke to me in a dream and said, "Don't give up! They're still alive!". They know they'll never get 100% buy-in from the family members, but they need to get ENOUGH so that when it happens, the few who make a public spectacle on TV will just look like tragic, delusional people who'll eventually come to their senses, instead of leaders of a movement calling for "Truth".

That was part of the problem after 9/11... the area was SO completely locked down due to being not only dangerous, but also a crime scene potentially still at risk of a followup attack, that a lot of victims' family members never GOT to experience closure, or anything besides powerless rage. By the time THEY were finally allowed anywhere near the site, it looked more like a cross between a landfill and a construction zone, so in the back of their minds, they could entertain delusions that somehow their family members were still alive, captured, dragged away, and were secretly being jailed somewhere to hide the Truth in a grand conspiracy.

The authorities in Miami are unquestionably going to be a lot more transparent towards family members, precisely because they KNOW how wacky things got after 9/11, and I guarantee that RIGHT NOW, they probably have no fewer than several dozen consultants coaching them through the PR crisis in an effort to avoid making the same mistakes and spawning yet another "movement".

How many days were people in Raqqa buried under rubble for?

[quote] My cousin lives very close to that building and says word on the street in the neighborhood is the smell is starting to get really, really bad and the rescue dogs are getting visibly agitated about having to go near it. Fucking heartbreaking.

Here we go again with the retards claiming they kniw soneone who knows someone who says the smell is really bad…it’s like dead bodies! It’s like burning flesh! It’s like rotting goblins!

It doesn’t smell. You’ve got tons of concrete, electrical wiring (which caught fire), dust….people are buried under tons of stuff. Rescue dogs don’t get agitated when they smell a body. They sit. It’s what they’re trained to do. It’s called a hit. “The dog hit on something” means the dog sat down. Of course, if you were a nobody making shit up, you wouldn’t know that. Thousands of people died on 9/11. It may have smelled close up when you got down three stories and smelled some tissue, but it didn’t smell outside of a few inches around the immediate area of a body (body parts, really). The area downtown after 9/11 never smelled like bodies. It smelled of jet fuel, electrical fires (wire/plastic burning) and industrial dust.

Bodies were pulverized, blood was spilled and absorbed by dry dust before it could smell

Lower Manhattan smelled like pork barbecue roasting over a hickory pit in the weeks after 9/11. I couldn't quite place the smell at first but when I did, I got sick to my stomach. The air was also very gritty. They didn't get the all fires out in the lower levels until November or December.

This reminds me of The Towering Inferno and how Faye Dunaway saved all those poor people, except for Jennifer Jones.

r581, that smell is horrendous. When I was young, my family attended a church in the South that had "Pig Pickings" and it was excruciating (never mind the fire and brimstone sermon beforehand.) Even outside, there was no escaping the smell.

As terrible as this condo collapsing was, Madge's NYC Pride performance is still gonna go down as the biggest June '21 disaster.

Anybody who lives in a high-rise condo building is nuts. Between building collapses, fires and elevator deaths, they are a literal deathtrap.

Not to mention the. neighbors. Cunts R Us.

R524 I just don't get what some of them think Israelis could do better . Blow the shofar and the walls will magically lift themselves up ?

Yeah, I can’t imagine why. It’s not like they have experience with things blowing up and having to go in and scrape up every last shred of human tissue. Better to set the families loose on the pile with plastic beach buckets and the best of intentions.

I would think they'd want Palestinian diggers in there. They have a lot of experience with being bombed to smithereens by Israel.

Wow it took 589 responses until that came up.

I'm hungry for roast pork AND pancakes now.

Reminder. Link to part 3

Are the sister buildings affectionately known as Liza and Lorna?

Apparently, the story has lost its lustre.

CNN has boring John Berman at the site this evening in lieu of Anderson.

Wolf Blitzer was doing his damnedest to create some news. To no avail. All those people are dead and the sooner their relatives accept the inevitable, the sooner they can clean up the mess and recuperate bodies.

The only one that matters anyway is Cassie. At least she died with her Marilyn stuff, and possibly leaving a clue or two behind on that phone call.

Why haven’t they taken down these two Champlain Towers listings?

Hopefully Anderson at least hooked up with a couple hot Latin boys in Miami

"How many days were people in Raqqa buried under rubble for?"

R578 Was that also an 80s beach development near Miami? When did it collapse?

Was Cassie an actual model or an insta model?

They are asking family members to take DNA tests so they match up body parts.

three