Miami Condo Collapse - Part Four

Good. Maybe the cat freaks can confine themselves to the part four with the stupid name.

No, R1, the cat freaks have been banned by the other Part 4.

Cat Freaks are coming here.🙁

Kitties!

Midnight, and not a sound from the condo....

Thank you OP !

Is this the Marie Kondo Prolapse thread?

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

thread closed

Click on the link to with the hyperbolic "First responder finds daughter's body" title and get this:

[quote]Miami's WPLG Local 10 initially reported that the firefighter was actually among the rescuers who found his daughter.

[quote]Miami-Dade County Fire Chief Alan Cominsky later confirmed the Miami firefighter was not part of the rescue crew who recovered the girl's body, 'but obviously was notified' and called over when she was found.

[quote] But the repair and restoration work 'could not be performed' because the pool 'was to remain in service for the duration of the work' and because bringing in necessary equipment required to conduct the excavation of concrete at the pool 'could affect the stability of the remaining adjacent concrete constructions.'

This is the craziest part to me. To save the pool, they put off fixing the structure.

Did Marie kondo own a condo there? I don’t get all the references

[quote] This is the craziest part to me. To save the pool, they put off fixing the structure.

Even crazier is that they put it off because they were afraid the building was going to fall down-- or whatever "affect the stability of adjacent structures" means.

These things are rare, but when they happen, they usually happen to poor people in rented apartments like the Grenfell Tower fire in London.

These people go from upper-middle class to serious wealth; they were educated, monied, owners of the building; and they still managed to kill themselves.

I wonder what the contractors meant by “curious findings” in the report filed after drilling the concrete deck. The DM has pictures with a measuring tape next to the chunks of concrete.

[quote]Did the fireman live there and he was working that night leaving his daughter there?

No, he didn't live there. The daughter lived with her mother & grandparents.

The Crestview has been evacuated.

This is the beginning. There are loads of these old places--from Miami Beach going all the way north.

I'm re-posting this dramatic story from the failed thread:

Which James Bond movie hat that cool opening shot with Miami Condo buildings? As a kid I thought this was so cool (I grew up in Europe).

Got it - Goldfinger

Dead Cat Bounce now happening. Stay off the other thread

"What Remains of Florida Condo Will Be Demolished, Mayor Says"

So, they expect to recover all 128 of the remaining bodies? I sure hope they do before they demolish the site.

Shall we start taking bets on how many other buildings are found to be structurally unsound?

I’d still love to know if in Florida a seller has to disclose if the HOA condo board has received an official inspection report. Or if they don’t have to say anything until there is an actual assessment.

Because it’s Florida, my guess is the latter.

Holy shit. According to the articles about the shutdown of the Crestview Towers condo building, the condo association for that building failed to perform the mandatory 40-year recertification for something like twelve years, paying the fine instead of paying for the inspection. They finally went ahead with the inspection last August, and got the report this past January.

The report said the building was structurally not safe for continued occupancy!

So what did the condo board do? They sat on it. They didn't notify the city, they didn't notify the occupants, they didn't evacuate the building.

It wasn't until this past week, when the city threatened to shut down the building unless the board gave them the report that the board handed it over. And then, since the report said the building was unsafe, the city went ahead and shut it down.

These assholes were willing to gamble their lives and those of the other residents rather than sound the alarm and lose their homes/investments.

I would never, EVER buy a condo. Nor any real estate in Florida.

R23, Ileana Monteagudo (#611) bought her unit in December. She says didn't know about the structural issues & impending assessments until after the sale. Her story about getting out is pretty hair-raising.

r25 that was a nice view of the ocean and pool, so sad.

Handsome man who would have been dead if he didn't stay at his girlfriend's that night

[quote] So what did the condo board do? They sat on it. They didn't notify the city, they didn't notify the occupants, they didn't evacuate the building. It wasn't until this past week, when the city threatened to shut down the building unless the board gave them the report that the board handed it over. And then, since the report said the building was unsafe, the city went ahead and shut it down.

Posters in these threads keep saying that all of the burden is on the buyer of a condo to "do due diligence" and learn about any problems with the building before agreeing to buy. But what are you supposed to do if, as was the case with Crestview Towers, the condo board hides that information from everyone? It would suck to buy a condo only to learn, a few weeks or months later, that the building is unsafe to occupy or that it will need millions of dollars in repairs.

[quote] According to the articles about the shutdown of the Crestview Towers condo building, the condo association for that building failed to perform the mandatory 40-year recertification for something like twelve years, paying the fine instead of paying for the inspection. They finally went ahead with the inspection last August, and got the report this past January. The report said the building was structurally not safe for continued occupancy!

If the building had collapsed, they could have changed the name to Crestfallen Towers.

[quote] Holy shit. According to the articles about the shutdown of the Crestview Towers condo building, the condo association for that building failed to perform the mandatory 40-year recertification for something like twelve years, paying the fine instead of paying for the inspection. They finally went ahead with the inspection last August, and got the report this past January. The report said the building was structurally not safe for continued occupancy!

All of this goes back to the fact that recertification is only required every 40 years. It's almost certain that, after 40 years, there will be some problems requiring expensive repairs -- especially if the condos are near the ocean or if there were design flaws when they were built. So the condo boards, dreading the inevitable bad news, either put off the inspections and pretend that everything is fine (like Crestview Towers) or push forward and saddle residents with enormous assessments (like Champlain Towers). Neither option is very appealing. The more sensible approach would be to do recertification every 5 years or 10 years and address problems before they get out of hand.

I wonder how many other condo buildings in the area also were built in the early 1980s, haven't yet had their re-inspections, and are riddled with unaddressed issues?

A Yelp review of Crestview Towers from November:

[quote] Where do I start? For starters this building is extremely old. Like molding, 30 year old paint old, mushrooms growing out of walls and etc. They have 2 elevators but for the last year and half there's only been one and due to covid only 2 people can enter the elevator at a time. So if your moving in or out prepare your self for a long day. Central ac unit is prehistorically old, breaks down for weeks at a time, so on top of paying for central AC you have to have a backup wall unit for emergencies. Management is too broke to pay for things to get fixed correctly, so they supervise and heckle residents with rules and fines. Windows suck. You hear everything through them, rain water gets Thru them, they don't open or close properly, and make a terrible screeching sound if u make the attempt to. The building structure is extremely old, so when it rains, the water seeps through the walls and comes up out of the floor. Now they say u get what u pay for, but to pay more than 1200 for a 1 bedroom apartment in this establishment with all these constant problems is ridiculous. Save yourself the money and the headache.

[quote] I wonder how many other condo buildings in the area also were built in the early 1980s, haven't yet had their re-inspections, and are riddled with unaddressed issues?

Probably a great many of them. It would be strange if the city had let one bad actor slide, unless this was their standard practice.

Usually the hard stop in the process is the insurer--as in, what insurance company was covering these buildings. Surely, the insurance agent that was sent out to assess the building before selling the coverage saw these things. Who the heck covered them?

For R32

From the article linked at R33:

[quote] Miami-Dade and Broward counties are the only Florida counties that require aging high-rises to go through a reinspection after they reach 40 years of age.

Wow. Here I was, thinking that these counties were being lax by letting high-rise condos go 40 years without a reinspection when, in fact, they're apparently the only Florida counties that require any reinspection at all.

Yikes. Is that really true? Who would live in a building like that?

I'm still interested in hearing about what a poster in the last thread said about Florida sinkholes opening up under houses, swallowing the contents of the houses, including people, while "leaving the shell." Is this a common occurrence?

[quote]But what are you supposed to do if, as was the case with Crestview Towers, the condo board hides that information from everyone?

R28... that building was 12 years late in obtaining its 40 year certification. The status of the certification should be easily obtainable from the relevant Buildings department. If it is not up to date... that's a problem. If it is grossly out of status, run. Run from the building. And run from the jurisdiction (state and local) that allowed it to happen. Sometimes you don't need that inspector's report to know there is trouble.

Rescuers face a COVID outbreak.

FLORIDUH!

we're rather die than

get vaccinates spend money enforce building codes pay taxes

What a bizarre place.

Those are hotels not condos R18. The curved building with the large pool is the Fontainebleau. Built in the early 1950s, it’s still standing.

They’re STILL calling this a “search and rescue” operation. Ridiculous.

A covid outbreak among the rescuers makes this the ultimate Florida clusterfuck.

The building will be demolished Sunday morning. No link yet-- just a DM news flash. I suppose they want to do it before the storm. I thought it was weird they were talking about it taking weeks to come up with a plan for demolition.

I was looking to buy a condo within the next year or so, but now I have second thoughts after reading some of the info shared in these four threads about condo ownership. I'm still utterly shocked that a tragedy like this could happen in the US in 2021 in a somewhat affluent neighborhood.

Of course, in the end the attorneys will be the ones who benefit the most from this sad disaster.

They will blast it, R44.

and the real estate developers, who will pay off the politicians to get the land cheap and permits to put up some obscenely priced new condo

R36 that is not common. Sinkholes do happen frequently here but they usually just destroy property or require mitigation to make the structure habitable again. When I was a kid we would drive by and look at the Winter Park sinkhole that swallowed a Porsche dealership. A man did die in his bed a few years back when his whole house suddenly got sucked into a sinkhole, but that’s the exception not the rule. Usually you will notice warning signs like cracks on the wall, doors that won’t shut, or floors that aren’t level.

I guess they know what they’re doing with the demo. It would be awful to add more layers of rubble over what’s already there.

they can't remove existing debris if there is the threat that the remaining section will collapse on them. once they get over the "rescue" fantasy, they can bring in heavy equipment that can clear debris much faster

There's a tropical storm heading that way and even if it's not a direct hit, the winds will make it extremely dangerous not just for the rescuers but for people living in neighboring buildings and homes.

I think that's why they decided to rush the demolition.

I wonder if this collapse, as well as the Florida phenomena of sink holes, is going to have an effect on sales of this thing: the new Miami Waldorf Astoria condos.

The looks-like-it's-ready-to-topple design sure isn't going to help. 100 floors. Would you want to live up there?

Yeah, I figured it was necessary r51. I just can’t imagine scooping all this up with backhoes and removing it to the dump with body parts inside. I guess they’ll inspect every load to extract any. Gruesome task. I’d think many of the people workin at that site will be haunted by what they’re seeing.

*topple

R23 r28 the seller doesnt have to do anything. Its up to the buyer to get the *unit* inspected and the insurance company will ask for the wind mitigation inspection for the building. Hurricanes were the primary concern before this event for the insurers, and probably will still be. One major storm like Andrew, Irma etc is vastly more expensive than even this, although the human suffering is so great here. The companies will likely start dropping the older high rises as mentioned in r32 if they arent looking good in this new round of inspections.

And trust me, as someone who's lived in South Florida for a long time, you can tell when youre in a shitty building. The demand for housing here at all cost points is insane, so people have made concessions so they can find somewhere they can afford. Even these middle class victims. People talk shit about Florida all day but continue buying and moving here from South America, the Carribean, and all over the US.

[quote] And trust me, as someone who's lived in South Florida for a long time, you can tell when youre in a shitty building.

This seems like it was a shitty building. I've been reading interviews with residents, and they seem kind of naive, to put it nicely. The nastiness with the board also hints that the people who lived there were in denial and/or ok with living in a shithole.

Isn’t there some sort of investigation that needs to take place to determine the true cause of the collapse and who bears responsibility? Wouldn’t the demolition destroy evidence?

Well, I guess this means Coco will be toast. Or toast crumbs, once the demo happens. I'm really disgusted. Did they even TRY a cat trap? I hope they heavily tranquilize her last meal so she can at least be fast asleep when the end hits.

I have learned so much on these threads. I'm not going anywhere, and I don't think these threads are for a while, but I would like to give my thanks and appreciation to everyone who shared their knowledge about how condos are run; how contracting, construction, repairs and inspections generally work; who lent their knowledge about how things operate in Florida, (or don't as the case may be); as well as those in the area who gave their updates/takes on the situation; those who took the time to post graphics that were so helpful in understanding who was where; those who posted articles and news updates; Those who found more information about=as one poster called her-"Our Cassie" that helped us learn a little about her; those who posted information, and more importantly, photos of a couple of hot men who survived; gallows humor; and general perspective. I'm missing a lot to thank people for here, I'm sure. My apologies. Finally, thanks of course to the OPs of these threads for keeping the thread titles consistent and respectful.

The latest from the WSJ:

[quote] Mr. DeSantis said he understands that residents of the standing tower are eager to collect cherished belongings. “I don’t think there’s any way you can let somebody go up in that building given the shape that it’s in now,” he said.

[quote] Workers have removed millions of pounds of construction debris from the site and carted it off to storage by state dump trucks. Surfside Mayor Burkett said when workers found personal items, including jewelry and electronic devices, they set them aside.

[quote] The fate of any pets in the existing structure is another concern, Ms. Levine Cava said. Rescuers have searched the building at least three times and recently sent in cameras, too, she said, but found no animals.

That's certainly a possibility, R59, but I don't see that they have much choice. As it stands now (no pun intended), they can't dig through the section of the debris pile immediately adjacent to the building (where it sheared), not only because of falling debris, but because the debris pile is supporting that end of the building. It's a real clusterfuck.

[quote]the new Miami Waldorf Astoria condos.

I walk by that site every morning r54. Only in Miami would they build a 100 story Waldorf Astoria EXACTLY next door to a 10 story Holiday Inn.

R33 Thanks for the link to that very informative article. Florida law essentially does not require a condo to have a reserve fund, and many condos have none. That’s a very dangerous situation. On the other hand, it’s good to learn that condo insurance companies in Florida are now going to require evidence that condos have passed their 40-year inspections to renew or get new insurance policies.

R48 How convenient that Jared Kushner lives in the neighborhood. He can pay pennies on the dollar and make millions selling new condos to money launderers.

Elsa has been downgraded. Hopefully might not be as bad as feared.

Not that any massive rain would be welcome, but I guess it's something.

I think more than rain the wind is a problem. It wouldn't have to even be that windy before parts of that building fall down.

From what I've read, engineers are doing computer modeling using photographs to pinpoint the cause of the fall. They are also hauling off all the debris and will examine it bit by bit in the coming months. Even if they didn't demolish the building, I think that most of the studies they need to do can be done from afar.

This NYT article discusses the modeling that engineers are doing.

While I think it is wonderful for the engineers to peruse their dream career, is this really the time to focus on modeling?

This reddit thread explains the process.

I’m shocked at the number of people who don’t know the difference between a condo and a rental apartment.

Danny Rivero: There were structural deficiencies identified that probably went back all the way to the construction of this building. And a lot of it has to do just with the fact that the pool deck was built flat, which is a huge no-no. I mean, even me, as a non-construction person, knows you don’t build flat.

Why?

You don’t build flat because water accumulates on flat, and then it will seep down and cause structural damage. At least in Florida, you don’t build a flat roof. You build a sloped roof so that if it rains, it doesn’t pool on your roof and cause leaking. But what this engineer report found is that going back to the very beginning of this building basically, they built a concrete slab that was flat for the pool deck. And what that meant over years and decades is that water, as it accumulated from rain or from storm surges, which happen every once in a while, it was seeping down into that and causing changes at the geologic level. This was accumulating under there and causing issues on the pillars that the building stands on, that the whole property stands on.

From the article at R68:

[quote] Engineers who have visited or examined photos of the wreckage of the Champlain Towers South condominium complex have been struck by a possible flaw in its construction: Critical places near the base of the building appeared to use less steel reinforcement than called for in the project’s original design drawings.

Wouldn't the North Tower probably have the same flaw, since it was the same builders? I know that the condo association for the North Tower did a good job of maintaining the building, but what if it turns out there were serious flaws in the construction of the building?

r73, that's what I keep thinking! I can't find any article that addresses that question, though. I've been reading this thread on an engineering forum. I'll post if I come across anything.

sooo......according the Times article, looks like they cut corners on construction, using less steel reinforcement than the approved plans called far. no doubt the building inspectors checking construction got paid to look the other way and sign off on the permits

quelle suprise!

did the builders of the north towers also cheat or was it built according to spec?

Aren't the developers and builders of the North Tower the same people, working to very similar blueprints? I think that building has been much better maintained.

I'm sure that any design or construction problems were confined to just the Champlain Towers South and Crestview Towers buildings, and all the other high-rise buildings in the area are perfectly safe. I'm sure that none of the builders of any of the other high-rises cut any corners, and I'm sure the inspectors and the city never looked the other way for any other buildings. And thanks to the recertification process, any problems that come up will be quickly addressed within 40 or 50 years. The residents of other aging high-rises in South Florida can breathe a sigh of relief, knowing that their buildings are safe and their lives are in good hands. ... Wait ... what's that sound?

If you care about the cats still trapped in the tower, please sign this petition to stop the demolition planned for tomorrow (Sunday) morning. At this point, public shaming of the mayor is the only weapon we have left to save them from being horribly crushed and impaled at dawn. She clearly doesn't care about them, and it's up to us to MAKE her care.

[quote] the Florida phenomena of sink holes,

I suppose if you get your news of the world just through datalounge you might think that

r79 Weren't you going to try and get a hold of PETA? Or do I have the wrong poster? I would think calling them, or their local chapter (no clue how that organization works) or even tweet some of their more famous members might make a dent. The local officials are up to their teeth in red tape, lawsuits, and god knows what else at this point. Not sure there is the luxury of time to put a petition through.

Look at all that equipment stored up on the roof of the building!

[quote] nd the real estate developers, who will pay off the politicians to get the land cheap and permits to put up some obscenely priced new condo

I think the insurer ends up owning the property if they pay all the way to the limit--which they will.

Here r79 See if someone actually picks up the phone. From PETA's website:

If an animal is in imminent danger, please contact your local police department immediately. If your local police department is unresponsive, call PETA immediately—day or night—at 757-622-7382, option 2. Or you may contact PETA by filling out our Report Cruelty to Animals form.

In non-cat news. Are there any other reports from people who live in the area that I've missed? I'm more interested in what they are seeing and hearing, rather than these "experts" flapping their gums on the "news" channels.

[quote] She clearly doesn't care about them, and it's up to us to MAKE her care.

She does care. She is a nice, smart lady of integrity.

She has the very difficult job of weighing the safety of the people working on the site below (and there is a tropical storm with strong winds coming, which will make the whole mess more precarious) with the safety of the pets. (I have no idea why the evacuees didn't take them with them. I would live in my car before abandoning a dog.)

I cant wait until the rest of the building comes down tomorrow so you cat ladies can move on with your lives.

The rescuers have been in the building several times but have found no animals:

[quote] The fate of any pets in the existing structure is another concern, Ms. Levine Cava said. Rescuers have searched the building at least three times and recently sent in cameras, too, she said, but found no animals.

What more do you expect them to do?

I live in a condo (built 1966) in Broward County. I have served on my condo board and think.....think. .I'm correct that the inspections are not actually done by the County. They are done by independent firms that contract with the individual condo associations. The inspection takes place and is quite thorough, after which the Board (and through them, the owners) are then presented with the report. Once the report has been delivered the condo association has an amount of time (18 months, I think) to "cure" or correct whatever problems the inspection uncovered. At the end of that period (or sooner, if there are no issues or the issues can be corrected easily) the report is then sent to the County. If the problems have been addressed, the condo association provides evidence that they have been taken care of. If they are of a nature that requires further action, the condo association then provides a plan for approval. The provision of the report to the County is what starts the clock, which is why Crestview paid the fine for non-compliance for years while trying to finance and get approval for the needed repairs. To be honest, though, the whole inspection program is "more honored in the breach, than in the observance."

cat loons, we have a separate thread for you

Even in areas where they supposedly have very strict building codes and inspection practices, there's weird stuff going on. The inspector I hired to look over my home before I bought it told me he didn't think there was any need to do a radon test. After I bought it I did my own test--guess what--radon problem! The HOA gave me no end of a hard time over installing a mitigation system because they didn't want one of those telltale pipelines coming out of my house. I guess they were counting on my being a radon denier.

I had some upgrades done to the property and the city inspectors hassled my contractors mercilessly. Not long after I found out that a vacant office building downtown, a block or two from City Hall, actually had a tree growing through its roof.

"I cant wait until the rest of the building comes down tomorrow so you cat ladies can move on with your lives. " —Anonymous you do realize that there will be six months of mourning don't you?

r87, the rescuers have NOT gone into the building above the first floor. The mayor's office has unambiguously confirmed that. The ONLY recon they've done is sending drones into the building... and if you've ever heard a drone, you know that any cat within earshot is going to run for its life and hide if it hears one approaching. They're doing EVERYTHING they possibly can to spread FUD about the cats, releasing very carefully-worded statements that make it SOUND like there are no pets in the building, while REALLY saying they haven't "seen" any (and haven't looked very hard or effectively, either).

But have they checked the cabins for the cats???

The cats are all out. The Norse goddess Freya arrived in her chariot drawn by Norwegian forest cats along with Loki, who lured them out with Temptations and a Jackson Galaxy teaser toy.

Crazy cat freak here. But if there is a choice to make between human and animal life, the human life has more value. A signature on the petition asked for infrared imaging to be used to locate pets before the demolition. This seems a reasonable compromise.

can't the cats just ascend on a spare tire?

We do know at one point Coco was indeed eating and drinking and having cocktails out on her lanai or balcony or whatever. Either that was a lie, or she hasn't been seeing since the first time. Perhaps they are trying to do some revisionist history on her ever being spotted in the first place.

Never mind the cats for a second. This has got to be the daintiest fucking "rescue" operation in the history of rescue operations. Or laziest. Or botched, Or all three.

People get found by citizen rescuers all of the time in these sorts of disasters that happen in the "third world countries". often ridiculed here. Men and women see trouble, they drop what they are doing, pull up their sleeves and get to getting, IMMEDIATELY. They don't piss their pants about the fucking rubble falling or "making it worse", and what often happens? They find people alive. They find animals alive. If this was one of those countries, they would have made quick fucking work of this place. Instead, the disaster area looks just as bad all these days later than the first day it came down. Shameful. They waited on their asses until they knew no one was getting out alive and decided to let the wrecking ball do all of the work for them.

r80 Was that the Bowling Green Massacre?

I remember that, r98. It was horrifying. I will never forget the images of carnage I saw.

R89 They know there is a separate thread, but being the passive-aggressive assholes that they are, they need to go out of their way to annoy and harass the rest of us.

I'm surprised we haven't heard more from the families. Some of them at least must be protesting the demolition.

They should salvage that bunk bed for a Florida history museum. Or it could be auctioned on e-bay for a small fortune and the proceeds given to the survivors.

I wonder if the announced demolition is actually the "authorities" floating a balloon to gauge the level of protest from these families. If enough of them demand more time, I'm pretty sure they would acquiesce.

I doubt they would. The tropical storm or hurricane, whichever it arrives as, is due Monday. That's why they are pulling the building remains as early as Sunday morning. I was consulted and have given my full approval. Always get rid of the evidence at the first reasonable opportunity.

I was there, r99. It wasn’t that bad.

From the Miami Herald:

The two companies that have the job of bringing down the rest of the Champlain Towers South also worked together to bring down South Shore Hospital on Alton Road in South Beach in 2019.

Steve Greenberg, founder of Delray’s The BG Group, said his company was the contractor with Controlled Demolition, Inc., out of Phoenix, Maryland, as the subcontractor handling the explosives.

State records say Greenberg started The BG Group in January 2003. Among the familiar buildings the company claims to have brought down are the Miami Arena; the downtown Miami Howard Johnson’s hotel; the Miami Herald building on Biscayne Bay, and, in Surfside, the Surf Club.

Over the past 10 years, The BG Group has been fined twice by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. A proposed fine of $4,900 for an air quality violation during a 2015 job at the South Beach Marriott was settled for $3,430. A proposed $5,950 fine got settled for $2,976. BG Group workers didn’t use a chute when tossing down materials from higher than two stories and there was a fall protection violation.

An online search turned up no OSHA violations for Controlled Demolitions, Inc., which was involved in bringing down Pittsburgh’s Three Rivers Stadium, Seattle’s Kingdome, J.L. Hudson’s Department Store in Detroit, the Trump Plaza Casino & Hotel in Atlantic City and hundreds of other buildings since its founding in 1947. CDI also imploded a coal-powered Florida Power & Light plant in Indiantown.

Last year, CDI, MCM Management and Hilco Redevelopment Partners paid $370,000 after a smokestack destruction“ blanketed a low-income neighborhood with toxic dust,” according to a Law360.com article.

A CHANGE OF DEMOLITION PLANS Miami-Dade Mayor Daniella Levine Cava initially announced Friday evening that officials would not be able to demolish the building until late July, after extensive planning. But after that night’s media briefing, she said, county leaders heard from The BG Group.

“When I spoke to you yesterday evening, we had not heard from this particular demolition expert,” the mayor said during Saturday morning’s briefing. “This expert has the experience to move very quickly.”

Much more detail worth reading (and should be free, if not let me know) about all of this.

One cunty selfish resident who was lucky to escape with his life has the audacity to be bitching about it being an eyesore as well as useless to him. It can't "do anything" for him so DOWN IT MUST GO! Here's that nugget:

Steve Rosenthal, who escaped his seventh-floor apartment in Champlain Towers South the night of the collapse, told the Miami Herald on Saturday that the remainder of the building can’t come down fast enough.

“The sooner the better. It’s dangerous. It’s an eyesore. It doesn’t do anything for me,” said Rosenthal, who lived in unit 705 and accepted days ago that he’d be unable to retrieve belongings from his condo. ”There’s no way they’re going to let anyone in there to get anything. They’ve just got to knock it down,” he said. “It’s gone.”

For our cat people. Apparently a cat trap is/was deployed at leas tat some point:

Earlier this week, Miami firefighters used a cherry picker to leave food and water for a cat named Coco believed to have been left behind on the unstable fourth floor of the upright condo building.

One bright spot: Emergency managers told families that a cat scampered up the debris pile and made its way into the standing structure, possibly the second or third floor. Rescuers placed a “cat trap” with food on one of the balconies to try to capture the cat before the demolition begins.

There's more so yes, worth the read. Of course I can't link to the article but if you google Miami Herald Demolition and go to "news" it should be the first result. Look for this headline it should be the first result: "Death toll rises to 24; timetable moved up to demolish remaining portion of Surfside tower"

But did they get the dog out?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens to the property market in Miami because of this. There are going to be a WHOLE lot of condo owners in upside down mortgages on condos that are un-insurable. I wonder what that will do to the price of normal condos (newer or in good repair). I would think it would push the price of those up, except that there are probably a whole lot of people who were thinking of moving down here who are now having second thoughts (as they should).

Rosenthal is a scum bag.

Rosenthal is likely under an immense amount of pressure and stress, and has no idea where to go from here, let alone how to express the enormity of what just happened into bite sized quips for the benefit of the media, and the vultures that come along to pick apart anything wrong.

He likely feels getting rid of the building entirely might set him free to some degree. At least insurance, lawsuits etc. will have to get in motion.

There are a lot of people on these threads that need to back away from tv and canned internet reaction, and get to really know people in real life. A lot of you have no idea how things work in real life, but because you've googled some bullshit think you know how things should "appear". It isn't like that. Stop staring at a screen and get to know people in the real world.

Imagine the stress of those who were crushed to death or those hoping their family, including the family pet survived. His comments are cruelly stupid.

Interesting video graphic here (sorry if already posted). I find this proposed explanation very plausible. It doesn't explain how the situation came to such failure, however.

People who are in the habit of saying things like, "It doesn't do anything for me" tend to be assholes.

For the dummy at R80:

Florida is one of the states where sink holes appear most frequently.

"The Science Behind Florida’s Sinkhole Epidemic"

Note the word "epidemic"

What is it doing for anyone, R113? It is hindering the rescue or whatever operations. Would you or anyone want to work directly under a building that has a high probability of collapsing? People on these threads are bitching about how long it's taking, well that would be a substantial reason as to why. Figure it out. It's not hard.

Apropos of R97's comment, this is from wikipedia on that terrible factory collapse in Bangledesh in 2013--

[quote] Before offering assistance to Bangladesh, the UN held consultations to assess the country's ability to mount an effective rescue operation and they reached the conclusion that they lacked that capability. Bangladeshi officials, desiring to take "face-saving" actions and protect national sensibilities, refused to accept the assistance offered to them by the UN. A large portion of the rescue operation consisted of inadequately equipped volunteers, many of whom had no protective clothing and wore sandals. Some buried workers drank their urine to survive the high temperatures, waiting to be saved. Not only was the Bangladeshi government accused of favoring national pride over those buried alive, but many relatives of those trapped in the debris criticized the government for trying to end the rescue mission prematurely.[29]

This lady survived 17 days under the rubble--

[quote] On 10 May, 17 days after the collapse, a woman named Reshma was found and rescued alive and almost unhurt under the rubble.

All in all, normal people plus the army pulled out 2,500 alive. 1100 died. I'd take those odds over the Surfside ones right now.

Central Florida has a huge amount of beautiful lakes, most are actually ancient sinkholes that filled up with water.

The indians were probably pissed when they returned home at the end of the day to find their home swallowed as well. 🤷🏽‍♂️

We don't have sinkholes in South Florida. What they call "sinkhole alley" goes from like Orlando to the north.

No one will ever convince me DeStan has not experimented. There is some real swish in voice and manner.

God r112, I guess the lesson here is to not live in huge buildings supported by tiny columns 😳

The gays don't want none of that. "Of Satan".

Fatass Ron needs to lose at least another 30 pounds if he's going to run for president, he will have a heart attack by age 50 at this rate.

Mayor Cava is amazing on the other hand. I hope she runs for governor. Miami-Dade County has been in crisis mode for months with COVID, shootings now this and a hurricane. I bet she's slept like 2 hours everyday since she got elected last year, but still manages to handle all of this with such professionalism.

Local 11pm news says all search and rescue efforts have been suspended as crews rig the rest of the structure for demolition in the morning. And "relatives continue to pray for miracles."

Good luck with that.

High rise next door could have added to the problem

As I said in previous threads, I think the "rescue" mission will be called off Thursday or Friday next week, as the 9/11 search for survivors ended two weeks after 9/11. And its not like they can just bring in excavators to start clearing out the rubble once the rescue is over. They still have to painstakingly remove the debris small segments at a time.

If the city of Miami okayed that high rise building closer than it was supposed to then they also have some things to answer to.

It's the City of Surfside. It's a separate, tiny municipality.

well r126 anyone involved in the construction and initial permitting of the building is probably long dead 40 years later and Im sure the SOL is up

the new building next door is not inside the Surfside city line. it's in North Miami Beach

r127 the Renzo Piano building next door is in Miami Beach, while Champlain South Towers are in Surfside. The city boundary lies right between the two buildings.

Right r129 so they got approval from the city of Miami

The City of Miami and the City of Miami Beach are two different municipalities.

r131 NMB is another small municipality in North Dade, also not the city of Miami proper

r131 Guess I will have to read the article again. Unfortunately the damage is already done but I know the lawsuits are coming in.

[quote] The two buildings were originally separated by a 50-foot-wide street, The Post reported, citing public records. However, in 2013, 8701 Collins Development LLC reached a deal with the City of Miami Beach to acquire the street to build on it, The Post reported. A former Surfside official told the newspaper that residents of Champlain Towers were never informed.

So it is actually the city of Miami Beach

Even if they had been informed, nothing would have stopped. City of Miami Beach doesn't give a shit about what they're residents want.

I spend a lot of time in both the City of Miami City Hall (beautiful!) and the government center for Miami-Dade County (horrible!)

I know a lot of activists and a few of the commissioners in Miami Beach.

I don't know anything about Surfside except it's nice to drive through.

***THEIR residents, not they're

"A huge amount of beautiful lakes"

Oh dear!

[quote]I spend a lot of time in both the City of Miami City Hall (beautiful!) and the government center for Miami-Dade County (horrible!)

lol r137 the Miami-Dade County government center represents the great unwashed, the REAL Miamians!

I expect more residential buildings will be evacuated in the coming days, weeks and months...no local officials and inspectors will take any chance, better evacuate them all now than being held responsible years later.

R140, it's true. And the building--talk about an eyesore. But that's where the county commission meets.

Architect here: this is the perfect storm of a substandard design, materials that did not hold up, and assholes who ignored the problem.

Concrete needs rebar because it has terrible tensile strength. Concrete is, afterall, a bunch of tiny rocks stuck together. But rebar has very poor compressive strength. Rebar will kink like a hose under high compression. But concrete + rebar is very strong, because the rebar gives the concrete tensile strength, and the concrete holds the rebar in place, giving it compressive strength.

Now rebar is epoxy coated. But 40 years ago it was not. Concrete is like a sponge and sucks up water. What happened was the rebar in the pool deck began to rust away. This was severely aided by the chlorine in the pool and in the storage areas underneath. Chlorine is highly oxidizing, so it greatly speeds up the deterioration of metal.

Now, one of the benefits of reinforced concrete is it almost never just fails. It starts with some cracking, then spalling, then bigger cracking, then sagging, and finally failure. Someone ignored all these signs. I've seen the pictures of the exposed rebar under the pool. That should NOT happen in an area without a freeze and thaw cycle. It allowed that rebar to deteriorate even faster.

And horrible to say, but most if not all of those people are dead. Those floors pancaked down. It was a quick and relatively painless death.

During and after quarantine, people moved to that shithole state for sunshine and fewer taxes. This incident puts everything on pause. This isn't a one off.

I play for both Team Coco-Mia AND Team Sanity-Reality. As much as I'd like to see Coco & Mia rescued (for their owners' sake) I understand the reality of the situation. Their owners do as well, acknowledging that the search for the bodies & the safety of rescue workers is the #1 priority. If Coco & Mia's owners can accept that, then everyone else should, too.

So why weren’t the cats taken when their owners evacuated?

r146 Have you ever tried to grab a cat in a panic situation? Even the best of situations, making a sudden grab for a cat generally ends in bloodshed and tears, with them hiding out out of reach for the better part of a day, if not longer.

I can understand a cat hiding away in a weird spot, but how is it possible that they can't find a dog in an apartment?

Also, thank you to the architect for the explanation.

Also thanks to the person who posted the video of one likely explanation (though we don't know yet for sure).

Fuck the damn cats!

[quote]So why weren’t the cats taken when their owners evacuated?

r146 Gurl this wasn't like evacuating for a hurricane. Even a fire would've given more time. It was total chaos, the force of the concrete and steel buckling and being pulverized. These people made a break for it with just the shirt on their backs (if that). That remaining portion of the building could've come down on them in seconds. And like r147 said the pets likely ran off for cover themselves anyway, especially cats

Why is this so difficult? Shoot the windows of the balcony glass doors. Put a cat trap (with a crane) and some food on the balcony. They've been without food for days.

Use the crane/cherry picker to grab the cat trap.

r147, exactly.

The #1 lesson for everyone to take away from this is, never leave your cats behind. Ever. Fight off the first responders trying to drag you out. Ignore their lies and empty promises. Fight like your cat's life depends upon getting them out, because it does! You won't get a second chance to save your cat. It's now or never, bites, blood, and claws be damned.

And if the "first responders" try to drag you out without your cat(s), remember... YOU have teeth and claws, too. Use them! Fight like a mother cat, and save your children from people like Daniella Levine-Cava who view them as mere possessions to be disposed of whenever they inconvenience the authorities.

Fuck off with the cat shit!!! You have your own cunting cat thread.

We've mentioned that before r152 about the cat traps either on this thread or the prior one. Apparently one was left eventually (assuming it was for Coco, the only one spotted so far, but I could be wrong). They should have done it early on.

Pets aside, this entire process has moved at the speed of snail, if even that, which is infuriating. I can't imagine how the families must feel. About 3 (maybe 4?) days in, I remember one family member was on tape as basically saying fuck this noise, ramp it up assholes (I'm paraphrasing of course). This really must be torture for the families/survivors having zero control while they sit there watching this inexplicable vibe of non urgency (cloaked under the revolting "we need to keep the rescuers safe") to dig through the rubble. Of course now it's too late, except for the possibility of a fur bearing being or two.

My generation wouldn't have given a fuck about their own safety, they would have gotten in there immediately and done the right fucking thing. That's what people do (see upthread about citizen rescuers) that is what first responders do. That is why they are, or at least used to be, heroes. The people they had on the front lines of this event, either by direction from their superiors or due to their own lily livers seemed like they stood back with their thumbs up their asses from jump. All with the PR/admin people nattering on about how they needed to protect the rescue teams first. Sickening. Also, no. That's pretty much the opposite of how first response works.

You can't handle the job, go do something else with your life.

As for dogs, sadly, no rumor of hearing one alive and trapped, or spotted and shy.

If they were able to let that woman who was alive, alert and talking die 11 hours later without making any sort of appreciable effort to save her, however futile it might have been, the dogs, cats, parrots, hamsters, etc. still alive and, in the case of Coco, more easily rescued, were most certainly doomed.

R155, that's a good comment--and all true--especially about the woman who was talking to them.

I read an article that said one of them problems was that the state couldn't issue an emergency declaration before the locality did, so all of the other first responders (or whatever) lost a day in the bureaucratic shuffle. And the local firefighters we have obviously aren't trained for this or especially competent.

r154, 25 years ago, the mayor of Miami Beach noted that there's one absolute rule in politics: Don't mess with cat people.

His son, who is the current mayor of Miami Beach, is a corrupt douchebag.

Did anyone post this video yet? Woman who escaped scooped up her dog and got out.

it must be too late cause I missed where she lived in the building.

Will coastal Florida become the next NYC?

I live in lower Chelsea in a rent controlled apartment. I won't complain when it becomes a waterfront rent controlled property. It was kinda like that during Sandy but I did miss having electricity. With no electricity, there are no working pumps to push water up to the rooftop water tanks so you don't have plumbing either. After five days it got somewhat nasty, if you know what I mean.

I haven’t been that familiar with Rick DeSantis. However I watched him during a press conference a few hours ago. He came across as shallow and self-centred. He tried to garner some sympathy about how hard the collapse has been on HIM. I understand the criticisms now.

R161 Right before the first of our extended blackouts last year (the polite and bullshit term is "planned power outage", so cute, such lies) here in California, it never even fucking occurred to me that the water might not pump out of the tap without electricity. My rental is a condo in a quadplex(?). I'm old enough to fucking know better, though in my defense I had never rented in a multi unit housing situation before.

It wasn't until a friend asked me right before the first of what became many of these planned (fuck you PG&E) power outages occurred if I knew for sure that the water would work. When the power went off, I panickly checked with my heart in my mouth. (Mary!) Thank fucking god it did work. That said, even now, just to be safe, when we get an alert about an impending outage, I fill up the bathtub so I can at least be sure I can flush the terlit.

About the animals....

Officials don't really know how many pets were in the building at the time of collapse. The condo association officially knew of 12 animals (which were registered service/emotional support animals). There could have been a few others that were snuck-in.

In the STANDING portion of the building:

In addition to cats Coco (#405) & Mia (#1006), two parakeets were left behind in #509 when their 88 year-old owner, Esther Garfinkel, evacuated. She has acknowledged that the birds are dead by this point, due to lack of water/food. (I assume she had a very large birdcage/enclosure? If they were in smaller cages, you'd think the firefighters could have removed them fairly easily during one of their early sweeps of the building?)

Two dogs were evacuated with their owners, shortly after the collapse. Rigatoni in #405 and Sharon Shechter's dog #1109.

In the COLLAPSED section:

The Gonzalez family in #904 had a dog named Daisy (which was crated for the night in the kitchen), and two cats, Hippo & Binks. (GREAT NAMES!!) The cats were supposedly also crated for the night? I've never heard of people crating their cats overnight, but whatever, it doesn't matter now, when you see what's left of #904

Nicole Langsfeld in #804 had a guinea pig. (she also had a puppy named Zoe that was *not* in the building at the time of the collapse; Zoe was at her brother's house)

HOW is Cat Troll's HUMAN CHAIN going? Has the implosion been called OFF yet?? I'm SURE she would appreciate it if one of the locals could run over with a TUNA CROISSANT and a CLEAN CAFTAN for her!

Life is so fickle and rarely fair.

That said, I’d pay good money to see fat ass DeSantis go away forever by way of a sinkhole.

Just once, I’d love for life to be fair…

Maybe people will reconsider moving to Florida (a spit of land that will be under the ocean in the next 100 years). NAW

This is Apt #904

For those wondering about the layout of the building, and the apartment numbers mentioned........

Right, 167? It's just a big fucking swamp with some nice bits on coast. It never should have been inhabited.

The entire state was swamp/under water except for Palm Beach in the early 1900s.

Interesting information is being revealed as investigations move forward.

1. The building was not built to code way back in the 1980s. 2. The board paid fines to avoid building inspections. 3. Construction next door caused the building to vibrate.

I believe the paying fines was the Crestview, not the Champlain.

I don’t see a crate in what’s left of the apartment, sadly the dog has perished.

How about the builder be held accountable?

Good luck, indeed R175. The original builder is dead.

I don't know about the contractor, but the architect with the shitty, flat pool-deck design -- William Friedman & Associates -- is still in business. (although probably not for long!)

I laughed out loud when I saw the street view of his office. Perfect.

DL won't let me link: 4140 SW 70th Ct, Miami, FL 33155

[quote] If they were able to let that woman who was alive, alert and talking die 11 hours later without making any sort of appreciable effort to save her,

What an idiotic post. Do you really think they made "no appreciable effort to save her"? Probably less than half of what they know/what is happening is in the public domain.

[quote]I can understand a cat hiding away in a weird spot, but how is it possible that they can't find a dog in an apartment?

Because the apartment is under three floors of rubble.

According to one of the articles in this thread, they are not entering apartments.

They were never going into the apartments to look for the cats. Some DL Yutz ran with that idea & posted it as fact, after reading that firefighters HAD (past-tense) entered the building that first day to perform a "sweep" of the remaining units. (for humans)

Hey, if the cats are too fucking stupid to come out from the bed to get rescued... DARWIN!

Miss r155 and how many people have YOU saved from huge burning piles of concrete and steel, under 90 degree humid rainy weather with 60 pounds of gear on? Its so easy to sit in the comfort of your home behind a keyboard and tell other people what they should be doing.

When is the demolition happening?

I think they will need to demolish it today before the storm.

[quote] When is the demolition happening?

DL would not let me link to the Miami Herald story, but the plan is late tonight. A final decision will be made at a 1:30pm meeting today. I wonder if they are holding off to see if the winds of the storm will bypass Miami. If they could delay the demolition, they could get more information from the building to aid in the investigation.

Don't call PETA if you care about animals.

Judging by the names of the missing and dead there appears to be no gringos in this area.

News conference NOW!

^they said ahead of the storm which hits tomorrow

They said it’s not imploding all at once tho

Did they try cat traps?

Oh, fuck off R165, at least some people are TRYING to do whatever they can to save the cats' lives (even if only by trying to raise public awareness about their imminent execution), instead of cackling with glee the way sadistic bullies like YOU are.

You make me sick. People like you are the reason authoritarian thugs like Trump can get elected. And their equally-bad analogues on the left (like Dade County's mayor) who wrap their authoritarian agenda in touchy-feely pink tissue paper covered with hearts & ponies, while stomping on faces even harder while wearing stylish Prada jackboots.

Two living, innocent cats are about to be crushed, shredded, liquefied, and/or impaled by millions of tons of concrete and rebar. For god's fucking sake, at least TRY to pretend you have a shred of human decency.

[quote]I don't know about the contractor, but the architect with the shitty, flat pool-deck design -- William Friedman & Associates -- is still in business. (although probably not for long!) I laughed out loud when I saw the street view of his office. Perfect. DL won't let me link: 4140 SW 70th Ct, Miami, FL 33155

That does say it all, r177. (It's a tacky little office in an aging industrial complex,)

How do you know any cats are still living R193?

My psychic told me that she can hear their meows, and they are very sad meows. I keep praying and praying and lighting candles just like she told me to, but no one seems to care!

How does anyone know they are still even in the building at all? There's been no sight or sound of them for days. Would both cats really cower inside in the pitch dark, not venturing out to see daylight or what was going on? or to seek food or water.

I'm not cat expert but I've seen hungry cats in distress, they tend to look about for help and mewl a lot.

No one is monitoring every inch of the remaining building for the cats. They could have very well fled days ago, and may be taking safer, calmer shelter in the general neighborhood away from all the hullabaloo. Someone here posted that a cat was seen scampering up the condo rubble pile, hopping into one of the open holes of the remaining building before anyone could grab them. Who's to say they haven't been scampering in and out all week?

Read the VERY precisely-worded statements from the Mayor's office. The cats "haven't been seen" in the areas WHERE THEY'VE LOOKED... and they explicitly haven't looked in the very areas where they're the most likely to BE.

It's like if someone wanted to bulldoze a house with cats inside, and released a statement saying the GARAGE was thoroughly inspected, and no cats were found.

That's fine R198 but you seem a bit unhinged over this. I like cats and have two of them but you seem a bit nuts. The building is dangerous. If they were capable of getting out of the rubble they are long gone. If not they are probably dead from lack of water by now.

Try harder not to be trolled, R199.

Now that's hard R200 considering the trolls and real lunatics who post here.

So many local news cuties

Omg R198 FUCK the cats. If there is any, any chance that they can save a life, or even clear the rubble faster so families can have answers, then I don’t care if a building of dogs and cats die. The fact that in a time like this you are concerned about cats is fucking sick.

For now blocking the cat people.

Couldn’t they air drop the kibble & fresh water from helicopters 🚁

They could go to the city shelter and get three cats, sneak them into the building in cages in the dark, bring them out at daybreak. Everyone in the world would beg to adopt them. Dead owners can't say "that isn't Fluffy". Problem solved.

R203, you seem kind of psychotic. You'd really be fine with a bunch of animals dying just to give people answers about their squished relatives? Newsflash: the squished people are dead.

r207, no YOU are the psycho, since you are fine with risking HUMAN lives to find a cat that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be in there.

I think R207 is trolling.

R168 That lil white crumpled-up bunk bed gets me every time.

They should just take off and nuke it all from space. It's the only way.

[quote] They should just take off and nuke it all from space. It's the only way.

This is why I invented the Space Force!

And it continues.

I believe the there will be more pissed board members and residents who hate their neighbors calling into the city over every hairline crack to force evacuations. MESS HUNNY

[quote]They should just take off and nuke it all from space. It's the only way.

FINALLY SOMEONE ON THE DATALOUNGE WHO THINKS LIKE ME!

Well, they fucked this "rescue" up quite nicely. Let's see what goes sideways with the demolition.. Because you know they'll figure out a way to fuck that up too.

Is it the humidity that makes so many people stupid down there? What am I missing?

[quote] be sure I can flush the [bold]terlit.[/bold]

[quote]—Eldergay who needs his flushing [bold]terlit[/bold] to flush.

And just like that—boom—I fell madly and irrevocably in love with R163!

[quote]—Swallow Round DeSanta, please!!!!

That’s a tall order. We’ve taken houses, but he’s a little large.

Good news! The PR pressure campaign is working! Coco was just rescued! Mia is hopefully next!

Don’t link or anything. Ya know, too much work.

a live stream of the remaining tower

I TOLD Mutzi not to invite her sister Effie to spend the night. On the 10th floor, big as a house and doing the jumping jacks to lose wait before going to bed.

A recipe for disaster. And not Kosher.

Treyf!

Great news r218! Link please?

The "tiny columns" aren't the issue, R120.

[quote] to lose wait

JFC.

R216 It would be an honor!

We'll walk down the aisle (or bathroom hall, anyway) to the sound of flushing terlits playing "The Bridal Chorus" / "Wedding March. Or you choose the music, darling. I truly don't care, as long as you are beside me. I do know there won't be a dry...eye in the house, but we will assign each guest their own roll of the finest knock off Dollar Store Charmin that money can buy. No expense is spared!

Link to Coco

Yo, I’m hangry!!

r226 Thanks, but I don't know if that is wishful thinking on their part, or they just want attention. @miamidadefire has not corroborated it yet on their own Twitter feed unless I missed something. Please keep looking for a trustworthy news source. I really hope this is true, but my cynical bitch of a heart needs receipts.

More good news. A local attorney has volunteered to represent the owners of Mia, Daisy, Blinks, and Hippo(*) and is seeking an emergency injunction to halt the demolition until they're rescued (or recovered). There's a Florida Statute prohibiting animal cruelty, and a past appellate court decision that SPECIFICALLY cites "demolishing a building with live domestic animals inside" as an example prohibited act.

(*)Blinks & Hippo are cats who lived in unit 904 with Daisy. The status of all three is unknown. Daisy probably didn't make it (otherwise, she would have almost certainly been heard barking by now), but there's a chance Blinks and/or Hippo might be alive.

If it makes you feel any better, R210, there weren't any children in that apartment. The woman who lived there, Linda March, was a renter, and the unit came furnished. The bunk beds were in the spare bedroom. (a friend of Linda's called into one of the news stations that first day when they kept showing the bunk-beds)

R229 Are you serious?

Terrible news! The Twitter post claiming Coco was rescued is fake (confirmed by Miami-Dade Fire Rescue). Coco is still in the building :-(

Here is an emotional support calendar for you.

R230, I’m not r210, but it does make me feel better. Once I saw those bunk beds you can imagine the thoughts running through my mind as well as many others, so thanks for posting that.

r231, what, exactly, is 'insane' about a state law prohibiting cruelty to animals, a past ruling that demolishing a building with cats inside indeed constitutes a prohibited act of cruelty, and the desperate human companions of the cats (and dog) taking advantage of it in a desperate attempt to save them?

The humans under the rubble are OVERWHELMINGLY likely be dead. Cruelly murdering the animals won't make them any less dead.

R235 And fuck the safety of actual humans still in the area?

R236 I think R235 is trolling us and pretending to be an unhinged PETA type.

r237, it really doesn't read as a DL-style troll.

R232 I'm sorry. I had a feeling it was wish not fact. Anyone with 5 minutes of experience on Twitter should know better than to Tweet a rumor before fact checking. Not that it ever stops anyone, quite the opposite, sadly.

This is a piss drop in the bucket for all of the truly sleazy shit that's going to come down the path in the weeks and months to come. John Edward or someone of his ilk, (enter latest "happening psychic" here), will have a show at the first opportunity televised LIVE at the site of the since demolished building, "talking" to the dead. Reassuring family members for the sliding fee of 1k to 10k (Includes meet and greet and an autographed concrete chunk from the site) a head. They will go on about how so and so in building such and such went in their sleep thinking about how much they loved audience member/loved one, that they felt no pain, died instantly, and are currently watching over them.

Is there a thread about the collapse that hasn't been hijacked by the cat loons?

They have their own CAT thread. Why have the Fraus infected this one with all the pussy talk? I love cats like most people do, but stop hijacking this one. Purr on over to the other cat box.

R225, may I suggest this lovely wedding dress for your big day?

In the lamplight, the rubble collects at my feet, and the winds begin to moan.

What happens to the peoples stuff in the condo? The units that are did not collapse? I assume it also just gets blown up? Who would risk their lives going in to get the animals?

How have they guaranteed that all the people are actually out? Wouldn't they have to go condo to condo and check for people before blowing it up? I would think they'd have to by law do a visual inspection. They can get the animals, too, when they do that.

R240 and r241 If you are referring to me, I am hardly a Frau by any fucking stretch of the imagination, and while I love cats as much as the next person, I'm also a realist.

Most of my post at R239 was about my concern for the people that will inevitably get targeted and taken advantage of by scumbags out to make a buck. I'm sure that hack Dr. Phil is angling for an exclusive with the survivors too. They better fucking leave our two hot guys alone. Not to mention the young kid who got pulled out of there in the early hours.

[quote] How have they guaranteed that all the people are actually out? Wouldn't they have to go condo to condo and check for people before blowing it up? I would think they'd have to by law do a visual inspection. They can get the animals, too, when they do that.

They've done that, but they did not enter the apartments.

How did they check the apartments without going in the apartments?

How do you do a visual inspection without going inside the apartments?

Jinx!

I don't know. I'm just telling you what I read. I'm bored at home this holiday weekend, so I've read everything about it. Presumably all the people are accounted for. There is no way they'd demolish that building if anyone were left in it. The priority is on preserving human life. No one is going to take unnecessary risks for a cat. It's just the reality of this situation.

I think it's a special kind of sick though to see or know an animal is in an apartment and then close the door knowing you are going to blow it up. Just leave all the doors open. Most condos aren't filled with big dogs. Just small dogs and cats. Let them run out on their own if they don't want to rescue them. Takes no extra effort.

Is Cat Troll auditioning for the lead in Lavarious A. Slaughter's mashup of [italic]Cats[/italic] and [italic]The Legend of Billie Jean[/italic]?

[quote]Fight off the first responders trying to drag you out. Ignore their lies and empty promises. Fight like your cat's life depends upon getting them out, because it does!

[quote]And if the "first responders" try to drag you out without your cat(s), remember... YOU have teeth and claws, too. Use them! Fight like a mother cat, and save your children from people like Daniella Levine-Cava who view them as mere possessions to be disposed of whenever they inconvenience the authorities.

R252, In the hours after the collapse, firefighters swept the building twice to make sure all the residents had been evacuated. It is my understanding that they left all of the apartment doors open (which is apparently standard procedure)

Protest by cat lovers in progress near tower demolition site. Link coming in a moment, but if you're in Miami, start driving now.

can they give the cat loons access to the building to search, then blow it up?

I read on a forum that it would be brought down at 7. It's still standing, but here's the livestream.

R257 I would think they’d rather do the demo early in the morning when there are fewer people out and about. The dust will be terrible.

r258, you're right. 10pm -3am is the window.

RE: Status of any pets. They have done everything they could to find any animals, 3 full sweeps including looking in closets and under beds as well as using drones. They did employ traps and placed them on the balconies. The latest information they have is there are no animals remaining in the building.

Hear for yourselves at the below clip. Discussion re: pets starts at about -7:50

So, it sounds like what sightings of sightings of Coco reported by ?? were hopeful sightings and not actual ones.

Ugh sightings of sightings, whatever, you guys understand.

Horribly sad, but maybe we can move forward a bit now.

The cats are very likely dead or escaped. Are they going to demolish the building and sift for human body parts later?

R262 Basically. This is supposed to "open up new areas for rescue teams to search:As quoted in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution Journal video posted at r257

"Demolition specialists carefully bored holes to insert explosive charges into the precarious, still-standing portion of a collapsed South Florida condo building that will come down to open up new areas for rescue teams to search."

“RESCUE teams,” lol. Give me a fucking break. This is way beyond ridiculous.

Ridiculous could be applied to about 90 percent of this fucking mess r264. Along with quite a few other choice words.

The cynical side of me thinks they are blowing up the rest of the tower so they don’t find more negligence on the builder or city’s inspector

^^ It doesn't matter, they are doing forensics on the rubble to find out about what went wrong.

OK, sorry Mr. Stole My House, 246. I’m on the 4th day of a 2 day pad. 🤪

I’m curious too. Do they do an actual physical check of the building apartments before it’s kaboom time? A heat seeker gizmo to sense a living being? Do they allow a quick tenant visit to collect jewelry, coins, keepsakes, passports before taking down the building?

RIP Capodimonte collections.

R266, I too think this rush to destroy evidence seems on its face a reasonable action but who ever knows what is really going on in this day and age;

I would be screaming my head off if they wouldnt either get my valuables or let me get them. That piece is obviously not going to fall and I would want my valuables.

That piece is obviously on the verge of falling. What's wrong with you?

R268 Thank you and I appreciate you for reading my post.

I'm not sure what day 4 on a 2 day pad means exactly, though I have my thoughts, so, I um....condole you (?)

R272 2 weeks later ,Cunt ?

10 pm est it blows, who is watching live?

Injunction filed, judge ruling 9:30pm, cat rescue teams nearby and ready to enter if the judge gives his or her ok!

R275, are they ging to have fireworks too?

Fireworks are explosives, you're going to have your choice of which fireworks to watch.

Or you Can watch Don Lemon having alcohol live on cnn

R271 If we are talking valuables like "serious jewelry" that shit should always be in a safe anyway, preferably in a bank. Most of these tenants had money but I don't know if they had THAT kind of money. That said, many people do own private safes. I wonder how many will remain intact after this demo?

Oh lovely , another deleted tweet at r276 about something we really do need to put to bed now.

R271 You are a screamer! Good to know. If we are talking valuables like original art, irreplaceable objet d'art or sentimental family heirlooms and photos, yes that is terribly difficult. The only solace I would imagine is that the tenant and hopefully anyone that was with them at the time, are alive. They have lived to collect another day. That is a pretty big solace, or it should be.

r277 Oh god, I totally forgot it was the 4th. There's some weird timing. They did cancel the fireworks show for tonight in observance for the victims. I guess we'll be having our own kind of fireworks. As I think already mentioned earlier, I wonder how badly they will botch this demolition? Maybe it will go flawlessly, but somehow, I doubt it. Why start now?

Miami Dade cancelled fireworks out of respect for Surfside.

(They announced earlier this week.)

I'll be watching absolutely, and thinking about our Cassie. I'm a believer about souls sticking around when they die in a sudden, horrible way (and sometimes even if they don't). If she is sticking around and wants to get unstuck, maybe this will help. I don't know. I'm feeling sappy and I don't care. I'm as gay as a goose but I have a feeling that had I known her in real life I would have been following her around like a lovesick puppy.

I love this photo of her.

[quote] objet d'art

As long as the were displayed askew. Askew!

r283 They are now!

I am sick just thinking about all of the shattered Lladró and precious moments figurines.

[quote] I don't know. I'm feeling sappy and I don't care.

I'm with you. I think the spectacle of how this building went down somewhat overshadows the fact that these were real people who loved and were loved and are now gone. It's a tragedy.

[quote] As long as the were displayed askew. Askew!

Damn, that was one of the best lines EVER!!!! Love you Miss 283!!!

I'll be watching too.

r282 Big hug from another goose smitten by the lovely Cassie.

Hugs all around really, and I am not a hugger. I wonder if it will be a pool feed for the demolition? If not, I don't want to get stuck on the "loser channel" that has the crappiest angles and the shittiest commentary, like I always seem to for important events. I might stick to that Washington Post feed on YouTube, or try watching CNN on my laptop. Any better ideas, I'm all ears.

ENR reported that the demolition will be at 10:30 pm.

ENR?

What is ENR r289? What channel or is it's own thing?

This trend of using of acronyms that posters assume you'll know really has to stop.

ENR has been linked a few times already. I linked it below so you can unclench now.

I see no other mention from any media outlets of a 10:30 starting time. Of course officials did say it would be *between* 10:00 and 3:00, but I'm going to assume (watch me fail) that later time is really the window to keep locals sheltered in place for a good chunk of time. Most likely, the demo will take place right after 10:00. I hope so. I want to see it, but not quite so much "2:30 AM want to see it."

r292 Um...thanks! Never would have guessed in a million years that is who (and I do mean who?) you were referring to. Will they be streaming this?

Well of course someone will be streaming this, I hope someone here will be providing links.

Currently watching the livestream from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on YouTube. Please let me know if there is a better one out there. Link here:

Link to live demolition.

R295 you beat me to it.

The cat-haters can celebrate. The emergency motion was denied. The forces of evil won, and will hopefully burn in hell for eternity someday :-(

Am I the only one sick of this story? It’s one condo but you’d think it was bombed the way the media and politicians swarmed this area. A building fell, that’s sad, but do we need 3 weeks of breaking news about it?

I’m amazing how many people are so invested in this story of a feckless local government. Thank god they weren’t in charge of the 9/11 site or the pile of debris would still be sitting there 20 years later.

Glad they are tearing down the rest of that building so we can be done with this. By day 3 we knew no one else was getting out alive. No use dragging this out further.

r297 Glad to know that's (so far anyway) the only one easily findable!

r299 Why are you here, then?

Here is another link.

I'm running (well) to the kitchen for more ice cubes, watch me miss it.

r288 What did you decide on?

Thanks r302!

This one is the same angle as r302 but it’s a little bit clearer and the foreground roof isn’t in the shot.

^^ Sorry. It is to the shot, just less of it.

R304 This is the best so far, thanks.

Watching this is making me sad.

I don't understand. Is it unreasonable that these people want to rescue their pets? I'd feel terrible about my pet being crushed to death in a demolition.

Great link r304, Thanks! I like having other angles. I'll see if my laptop doesn't die trying to run both. It's ancient like me.

G&T R303. It settles mah nerves.

R307 Of course it isn't. Not in the slightest. We all (most of us anyway) understand completely. It sounds like they really did make every attempt, if what was said at the most recent press conference was truthful, and as cynical as I am, I believe it was. If you haven't yet watched the part where pets are addressed in the rescue effort, see my post at r260,

I heard a fog horn noise. I wonder if that is a signal.

Really like seeing all of the different shots at r304

10:30 on the nose.

Holy shit that was fast! I don't know exactly what I was expecting but it was down in a flash. Damn...

I hope the fireworks don’t scare any of the trapped people and pets.

I am a hard and cynical soul but after that, I just went over and picked up Mrs. Whiskers and gave her a hug.

CBS cameras sprayed with concrete and shite

🐈🧨🧨🧨

Hot Damn. A real Dead Cat Bounce

Seems to me that you do NOT want to feed them. If you do then they'll have no reason to come out and look for food. Sorta like not doing your son's laundry anymore so he'll get his ass out of the basement.

These are animals. they will look for food and water.

[quote] These are animals. they will look for food and water.

Not any more they won’t. 💥 🧨

The animal cunts can stop now, Take it your the stupid cat thread you created.

I like the emoji cunt.

The CBS guy who is flapping his yap is bothering me.

I shed a tear..

Maybe the cats are up on the roof, though they've been heard by the fire. Or maybe they're curled by the fire, though they've been heard on the roof.

r322 Same.

I thought this might make me feel a bit better. Right now I just feel worse.

Who's the cunt who yelled "whoo hoo!" in that Twitter vid?

wow the dust cloud is clearing very quickly.

I wonder what they did with the cars that weren't destroyed in the collapse

Oh, that’s just Florida Man, r326. He’s in the news a lot.

Wow that was pretty accurate...came right down. Can't wait to see it when the dust settles.

Wow that was pretty accurate...came right down. Can't wait to see it when the dust settles.

There’s something weird about doing it on the night of the Fourth

"Newsflash: the squished people are dead. "

Newsflash: so are the fucking cats

too bad for those living next door to this building, all that dust!

[quote] I think [R207] is trolling.

Ya think?

I think the Cat Troll and the Anti Cat Troll are the same person just looking to derail a thread.

Seeing fireworks going off in the distance did not feel right considering the impending boom.

The sliding glass doors were reflecting the lights from the emergency vehicles below and at times it almost seemed like someone was inside the apartment on the 10th floor.

Also the time chosen of 10:30 pm, when the building originally collapsed at 1:30 am.

r336 Good points, all

That lady just purchased a unit 4 weeks ago and now she is out and luckier only than those who were killed. No one said anything to new owners about STRUCTURAL DAMAGE WITH ESTIMATED REPAIR COSTS IN THE MILLIONS? That's fraud!

Here R330:

Florida doesn't have disclosure laws...its the buyer's responsibility to do due diligence...caveat emptor. This is what you get when you have a shit state, run by a shit governor, full of shit people.

Never mind R339. They had a live stream from near the site, but it's gone now.

It's amazing to me that they were able to plan and pull off that implosion in 48 hours.

"That's fraud! "

Not in FLORIDUH! it ain't, sucker

It was closer to 24 hours, wasn't it? But give me enough high explosive and I bet I could get anything blown up quickly, if Time was what was of the essence.

"It's amazing to me that they were able to plan and pull off that implosion in 48 hours."

given its conditions a few well aimed roman candles and a dozen strategically placed cherry bombs could have brought it down

[quote] Florida doesn't have disclosure laws

You also can’t sue for malpractice if a dr kills your loved one because only people who receive regular monetary support from the deceased are able to sue. If you are a self sufficient adult, tough luck.

I'm not the queasy type. I'm generally rather clear-eyed and pragmatic. I know this was the right thing to do, though I agree with the post by r336 about timing. I knew it was coming, I had a sense of what it would look like (they did do a good job after all), But here I am feeling deeply queasy and deeply sad for the people I don't know (the families, friends and survivors) who watched this tonight, knowing it was all truly over for good; and the people I'll never know (the victims of all species) who once lived there, not knowing this would be their destiny.

I sat there watching with what I thought was the distance of being an unrelated observer, cold drink at hand to boot. Yet right now, I feel like I somehow violated something deeply private by viewing that.

Mary! to the power of who the fuck knows?

Signing off for tonight. Take care everyone.

Night, youstolemyhouse.

Come back tomorrow. This shit saga will be going on for months.

As a probably inappropriate aside, if you ever hear about a planned implosion in your area and are even vaguely interested in this sort of thing, go.

I went to one years ago. I knew what was going to happen, but still about jumped out of my skin at the initial blast. It is much louder than you think it's going to be. It also creates a lot more dust than you could possibly imagine. It was weird, but a pretty interesting experience.

On Saturday, Levine Cava said: “Many in the community have raised this concern [about the building’s pets].

“I want to be clear that search and rescue conducted three separate searches, a primary, a secondary and a tertiary. And, they found no animals. I was informed this morning that they did a sweep with cameras and found no animals at this time.

Right noisy drone cameras that scare cats under furniture

Buh-Bye Coco!

r296 fuck that, I sat so long waiting and then it happens towards the end

The search will resume this morning, with new areas opened up by the demolition.

Those people who paid a fortune for those new, fancy condos right across the city line have to be wondering how stable their own fancy new building is.

The condos right next door just collapsed and there was a huge explosion with another building collapse all within two weeks.

The noise, the lights from the searchers and news crews and now all that dust everywhere? That has to be miserable.

Champlain Towers demolition.

Has the rescue started up again yet?

Have Meghan or Harry issued a statement regarding the collapse, the demolition, or the cats?

I had nightmares last night after watching the demolition I feel haunted by watching that.

The collapse of Champlain Towers South has prompted a review of hundreds of older high-rises. Some buildings ignored or delayed action on serious maintenance issues.

Supposedly the demolition created a big tunnel or something that they are saying is going to give them greater access to the original rubble pile/death mound and aid in the "rescue".

Doesn't make too much sense to me, r361. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong from the construction of this building until it's controlled demolition.

I keep thinking about the families of the missing people. they must know their loved ones are dead, but they still must be waiting in some sort of slim hope.

[quote] Have Meghan or Harry issued a statement regarding the collapse, the demolition, or the cats?

Susan Dey refuses comment!

I agree. ^^

I wonder if they will build there again?

I can't imagine escaping the initial collapse alive and then watching as all my earthly possessions get blown to smithereens. Stuff is replaceable, but it would still suck balls . . . and not in the good way.

The place is right on the beach. Even if it's in Florida, you can see the enduring appeal of living on the beach. Strange to consider that building might still be standing if the construction next door hadn't gone up. Residents complained about the building shaking during the construction of the luxury condominiums next door. Was the foundation of the building further compromised by that construction?

Need the pets, mobile phone and birth certificate when it gets down to it.

R368 it probably escalated the impending crash but new buildings are erected all the time and they don’t cause neighboring building to tumble down. It will be interesting to see if the other sister building is safe. If it is, then it was a question of poor design and total lack of maintenance over decades.

I couldn't watch the building be demolished. I can't fathom any pets left behind or people still alive in the rubble (I know it's unlikely). They'd have to shoot me to stop me from going in and retrieving my cat.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I lost everything in a massive fire that I witnessed. It affected the 300+ people who lived in the building. Residents were allowed back in the ruins for 20 minutes a couple of weeks later, and I went, but I did not give a shit about the stuff left behind. I had mild PTSD and once you go through something like that, your feelings change about things. It felt like a massive violation and the stuff didn't belong to me anymore.

I totally understand the resident who was saying the building needs to come down. People in this thread were criticizing him but truly, no one is in a place to say how another person should feel.

r357, there's nobody left to rescue. Mayor Cruella Le'Cava made sure every living soul in the tower was safely & securely dead last night.

Judge Hanzman literally shat upon the law last night, conceding that the demolition of the tower with at least one cat (confirmed alive by multiple credible witnesses INCLUDING "first responders" AFTER the Mayor lied in her evening press conference) unquestionably met the standard for cruelty to animals... then ruled to allow it to proceed anyway after County officials protested that the demolition crew would have to re-enter the building to defuse the charges first, then re-set them afterwards.

Literally, the judge ruled that even clear-cut laws with EXPLICIT supporting precedent, can be ignored whenever they inconvenience officials if it's an "emergency". Even if you HATE cats, this ruling should scare you shitless.

A picture of r372 has surfaced.

I mean r373.

Watching Miami handle this disaster really highlights what a third world shithole Florida is. What a piss poor rescue effort.

But in the early days of the effort, the mayor said the rescue teams were the best in the world, R376!

Couldn't watch the demolition. It's too depressing. The incompetence and grift is shocking. Truly 3rd world.

It definitely was sad to see that other building come down with remains of who knows what still left inside.

We’ll be putting out the fire 🔥 with ..............

G—A—S—O—L—I—N—E

Of course they're going to build another condo on the spot! That's primo real estate and those developers aren't going to let building on the site of a tragedy stop them from making bank.

Watch. Within six months, there will be designs floating around for anew luxury condo on that exact same spot.

Miami Herald.. who didn't have a physical newsroom before this (and now has reporters working out of a makeshift 1 in a hotel)..is relying on this story to last at least a year lol

Too Many Ghosts 👻

I wouldn’t live on that site if you paid me. It’s just too grim.

How do you know the history of the land you’re on right now?

Maybe there was an Indian graveyard on the site and that was the original cause of the problem?

I know people are blasting the rescue and recovery but i think people need to understand how awful the conditions were the first week. The pile had fire for days. I said in previous threads that during this season in south Florida it rains like every 8-12 hours, which slows down efforts some. They also have teams from across the world working all day. And certain portions of the debris have to be preserved so they can pinpoint the cause, probably the most important thing. I think people are being unreasonable when they dont really have knowledge or expertise in something of this magnitude.

I agree 100% r387. Also I think it's telling that there haven't been any complaints from the families or residents apart from that one woman in the first couple of days. There is very little indication of dissension or dysfunction at the site, or friction between state and federal authorities. Think back to the response to Katrina. That was a disaster handled badly by all levels of government. This is not that.

I think that people here perceive it as a failure because 1) it's Florida and 2) the lack of miraculous, dramatic rescues. But miracles are extremely rare. That's why they are called miracles. And the focus on pets is comical at this point.

The Herald doesn't have an office anymore? That's terrifying as shit. Imagine the absolute awfulness people will get away with now without investigative journalism

Not necessarily, r389. If you recall, it was The Miami Herald that ran the real story on Epstein and those girls.

One lady has been writing about that scumbag and his various sleazy connections to Florida politicians for years.

Julie someone, iirc, who also broke the story about Alex Acosta and his sweetheart deal that let Epstein walk without informing ANY of the girls about the deal. That caused him to resign from fat Donnie's Legion of Doom.

The Miami Herald has been ON IT the last few years - physical office location or not.

The Miami Herald lists a physical headquarters and it shows up on Google Maps.

Spooked condo dwellers across South Florida have contacted their building associations or local municipalities seeking updates on planned renovations, or assurances that their high-rise homes are safe. Others shared photos and videos on social media of garages with deteriorating concrete and rust, drawing comparisons to widely shared photos taken inside the Champlain Towers South building before it fell, killing at least 24 people and leaving scores missing.

“I’m getting hundreds of those,” said structural engineer Allyn Kilsheimer, who reviewed photos of the Maison Grande Condo garage at the request of the Miami Herald. Kilsheimer, whose firm KCE has consulted on other disasters like the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon and the FIU bridge collapse, was hired by the town of Surfside last week to investigate the Champlain Towers South collapse. He has since been contacted by residents and condo boards seeking advice about the condition of their buildings.

Yeah, I'd imagine it's a good time to be a building inspector, structural engineer, etc. in Florida right about now.

Will this bring the current real estate market back to reality?

Will the survivors get a discount to buy into the new condo building going up on this site?

[quote]Literally, the judge ruled that even clear-cut laws with EXPLICIT supporting precedent, can be ignored whenever they inconvenience officials if it's an "emergency".

Of course. There is plenty of absolute precedent for that, too. That's part of how it comes to be not just a problem, but an EMERGENCY.

[quote] Residents complained about the building shaking during the construction of the luxury condominiums next door. Was the foundation of the building further compromised by that construction?

I was wondering that too. Hastened the collapse. The super high rise in SF, Millennium Tower, that leans, was next to some big transit dig. Some blamed that for the lean.

The high rise next door offered the Board $400,000. I read that it is extremely unusual for an offer like that to be made unless there is an awareness that real and serious damage has been done. The Board was advised by their attorney not to take the money because along with it came a gag order. They ended up not taking it.

Perhaps if Champlain Towers South was stable and in good condition, it would not have been shaking.

The reporting is clear. There were serious problems reported YEARS ago in this building. Major deficiencies in the maintenance and the resulting condition of the building. So don't mindlessly change the subject.

Residential buildings constructed on the ocean need to be able to withstand enormous forces. Secure buildings do not fall down because of nearby construction. In any event, if there had been actual damage to Champlain Towers because of that nearby construction, SURELY it would have been addressed at the time.

r396, maybe, but part of that "emergency" (additional risk to demolition crew) was an 'emergency' of the County's (and its demolition contractor's) own making.

The recovery teams themselves had already conceded that the likelihood that any human victims are still alive is almost nonexistent.

By Sunday night, it was clear that the storm wasn't coming anywhere near Miami. It rained this afternoon... it was frankly no worse than a NORMAL July afternoon rainstorm.

Nobody under the rubble was going to be any less dead as a result of expediting the demolition... and AT LEAST one helpless, innocent, loved kitty died a horrific death last night because of the authorities' impatience, and in spite of an explicit state law intended to PROHIBIT cruel acts like demolishing buildings with live animals inside.

They will sue the condo next door into the ground. They essentially admitted guilt by offering $ 400K.

[quote]They essentially admitted guilt by offering $ 400K.

No. Don't be absurd. They offered money to settle a dispute and put an end to the complaints.

I found where I read that:

[quote] In late October, then-board president Graciela Escalante sent an email containing a “Term Sheet for proposed settlement with CTS Association.” It said Eighty Seven Park developers would offer payment of $400,000 if homeowners agreed not to publicly oppose the project, accepted expanded hours of construction and “entered into a strict confidentiality agreement.” The Becker & Poliakoff law firm advised the association not to accept the deal, because it contained “an unenforceable confidentiality clause and a monetary penalty for any breach,” Escalante wrote to told members.

[quote] Further, she added, the Terra Group had decided not to move forward with the proposal, because it had heard that condo owners opposed it.

[quote] A compensation proposal from a developer is unusual when a project is already underway, said Miguel Brizuela, a Miami-based construction attorney. Developers typically ask for the support of neighbors when they are seeking permits, not in the middle of construction. An exception, he said, is if the developer suspects there could be “a non-frivolous claim for damages for bodily injury or property damage” caused by construction.

[quote] The document sent to the condo association “requires so much context to understand what prompted it,” said Mary Ann Ruiz, a Miami-area condominium attorney, including “whether it is the extended hours of construction and the nuisance involved or whether there were other more serious concerns brought forth.”

The 400K offer was pretty cynical. Basically shut up, go away, and let us harass you even more hours.

And the way Miami Beach just took over that side street without even telling Surfside or Champlain Towers was pretty brazen. Everyone is in the thrall of those big developers.

The condos in Champlain Towers weren't cheap but they weren't exactly luxury or attracting sophisticated, professional-types. Reading interviews with the surviving residents, you get the feeling that a lot of very naive people from Latin America and the Northeast poured their life savings into those units. And once the true costs of owning a condo in the building became known, everyone fought them tooth and nail. The president of the Board I think in 2019 was actually a building official from another town. She resigned and sold within nine months.

dammit, the board could have used that money for necessary repairs

R395 I was wondering the same thing but I would personally find it to hard to deal with emotionally and no amount of discount will help you get over survivors guilt.

None of this would have happened under Albert Speer.

The Miami Herald has an office, but it's way the fuck out in Doral (all the way to the west bordering the Everglades National Park). They used to have a beautiful building downtown--you know--where a newspaper SHOULD have a building, close to the court house, close to the city hall (but it's the county government center), close to everything that's important. Some greedy investors who bought the paper sold it and moved them out to the sticks.

I believe the physical paper is now printed by the Sun Sentinel (the paper in Broward County). The Miami Herald sold their printing presses and the building the printing press was in.

Yes, the paper still has some good writers who are trying to make the best of a bad situation. But the MH used to be one of the best papers in America (and the world). In the 80s and 90s, the Miami Herald had reporters and offices internationally--covering foreign news.

Take a look at them now. It's terrible.

R117, this is incredible. It says about everything you need to know about construction in FL.

[quote] The high rise next door offered the Board $400,000. I read that it is extremely unusual for an offer like that to be made unless there is an awareness that real and serious damage has been done.

Sometimes these are called "community benefit agreements." They are extremely common here in South Florida when the developer thinks there is going to be static over a project. (And sometimes the zoning board will require one for the project to be approved.)

Yes, r411, but the article also said that this one was weird:

[quote] A compensation proposal from a developer is unusual when a project is already underway, said Miguel Brizuela, a Miami-based construction attorney. Developers typically ask for the support of neighbors when they are seeking permits, not in the middle of construction. An exception, he said, is if the developer suspects there could be “a non-frivolous claim for damages for bodily injury or property damage” caused by construction.

The weather is getting bad.

I don’t get r410

Sorry R414, I was referring to R177. The location is the office of the architect, William Friedman & Associates.

Oh thanks, r415/410. I misread and thought you meant to link an article but you’re absolutely right about the location!

R412

[quote] A compensation proposal from a developer is unusual when a project is already underway, said Miguel Brizuela, a Miami-based construction attorney. Developers typically ask for the support of neighbors when they are seeking permits, not in the middle of construction.

Right, because those permits are coming from the city and usually your neighbors are in the same city (municipality) and will speak to the zoning and permitting board. What is weird here (and this is perhaps why this happened) is that because Champlain is in a different municipality (Surfside) than the neighboring property (Miami Beach), they might not have been able to get the usual concessions because they would hold less power at the Miami Beach zoning/permitting board because they are Surfside constituents.

Miami Beach has a well-deserved reputation of always siding with the developer.

Has Renzo Piano said anything?

[quote] The condos in Champlain Towers weren't cheap but they weren't exactly luxury or attracting sophisticated, professional-types.

Weren’t some of the units rentals, too? I saw one woman interviewed, and she was paying $1200 per month for a one bedroom, which seems pretty cheap for that close to the beach in Miami. I gathered from that interview it was kind of a dump.

R417 Ooh, what a brilliant subversion of the system that would have been. Are we sure it wasn’t a Trump/Kushner project?

R419, lots of condo owners rent out their units. Everywhere. You have to be careful when the ratio of renters to owner occupied units gets too high - you could be ineligible for some mortgages. I wondered if that was the difference between the fallen condo and the one up the beach that seems to have a really diligent board and is kept immaculate. Maybe one building just attracted smarter owners - or they just lucked out.

Interesting. Thanks r421.

Has scrolling and posting slowed down to a crawl on this thread for others? Other threads over 400 posts aren't this slow.

Incidentally... Facebook is now pulling shady shit over posts related to Miami animal rescue, and specifically anything related to the condo's demolition. They're intentionally "slowing" search results on the topic (ie, they won't show up in results until HOURS after they're posted), and restricting visibility of posts in groups like "Rescue the Surfside Cats - Mia & Coco". Basically, they've decided the topic is now "too hot" and "controversial", so they're applying their auto-censorship algorithms to it to limit the visibility scope of posts relating to the topic.

I suspected they were doing it yesterday afternoon, when posts about the protest at the condo were seemingly nonexistent until after 7pm, when they suddenly started appearing in search results despite having been made HOURS earlier. Today, others have confirmed it by posting replies, then having someone signed in with a different account on a different computer at a different location confirm that they aren't appearing.

Goddamn useless fucking Facebook. I guess Zuck hates cats, too :-(

Gee R424 maybe thats because 145 HUMAN BEINGS died horrifically and nobody gives a shit about 2 fucking cats ! Where are these cat loons coming from ???

I recall during the early-mid 2000s housing bubble that cities in Florida didn't have enough housing inspectors to keep up with the number of homes being built. Solution: they allowed the developers to self-inspect and certify their own construction.

I don't know if that's still going on, and I don't know if that extended to multi-unit structures, but that's how Florida rolls: letting the foxes guard the chicken coops.

My father was an HVAC building contractor in Michigan and in his retirement years was living in Florida and his buddy tried to get my father to work for him. My father saw all the shady stuff in that business going on in Florida and shook his head. So sadly something like this happening is not surprising.

Haven't caught up on the latest yet. I needed a bit of a break so I'm just now checking in. Any new developments of note? Any stories? Any fresh cunts? Any fresh cuties?

have they recovered any cat corpses?

[quote]The Miami Herald has an office, but it's way the fuck out in Doral (all the way to the west bordering the Everglades National Park). They used to have a beautiful building downtown--you know--where a newspaper SHOULD have a building, close to the court house, close to the city hall (but it's the county government center), close to everything that's important.

r409, Im not sure why we are discussing the headquarters of the Miami Herald (someone please let me know). But downtown Miami is vastly more expensive than having an office out in the suburbs, especially for a newspaper (all of them are looking to save money). Also commuting to downtown Miami a royal pain in the ass and likely one of the most dangerous commutes in the United States. I-95 is gridlocked and shutdown due to high speed chases and accident fatalities practically every week, and Miami's rail transit doesn't reach out nearly far enough into the County. Most of the major news stations aren't even in Miami-Dade at all, they are in residential Broward County.

[quote]a newspaper (all of them are looking to save money)

Let me fix that for you.

[quote]a newspaper (all of them are barely surviving)

Have the asked for DNA samples to identify the cats?

okay. it's just a cat to you, others view their pets as family and can't shrug off their death.particularly when they have lost so much.

Sunlight, moisture, and heat degrade CAT DNA!

If you're NOT a CAT-HATING MONSTER, sign my petition to stop FLORIDA WEATHER right now!!!!!

And those people aren't posting here, R433. It's just one troll with two logins and LOTS of CAPS. Maybe it will let you borrow a few.

The cat teasers on both aisles are so tedious. Moving on...I'll ask again, anything of note? I've stayed off the news all day for a bit of a break. I realize I have myself to chastise thinking I would mine anything of note in this thread.

I hope my fellow posters who felt the demo in the gut like I did were able to get some good rest last night. Curious to know what the next steps are for recovery workers. The storm seems to have petered out, though I know that can change. Perhaps they are still waiting it out in order for the wind and rain to do something for them? If that doesn't happen, what is the next excuse?

R381 r391

From a reliable sources (cnn newsletter named reliable sources) this week:

Brian Stelter writes: "Monica Richardson joined the Miami Herald six months ago from the AJC. She now finds herself leading the news operation through its biggest story in years. On Thursday she spoke with me about how the Herald staff initially mobilized to cover the collapse; why staffers from all across the newsroom, from food to sports, have turned into disaster reporters; and why she expects 'this story to go on for at least a year.' She said the Herald -- which currently has no physical newsroom due to pandemic closures and cost cuts -- has established a 'Surfside bureau' at a nearby hotel.

Well, they found three more bodies today.

I think that's going to be the news for the next few months. Finding bodies and identifying them.

I can’t make hide nor tail of that r437.

[quote]Perhaps they are still waiting it out in order for the wind and rain to do something for them?

Perhaps if you hadn't "stayed off the news," you would have seen that they worked through the wind and thunderstorms all day.

[quote]If you're NOT a CAT-HATING MONSTER, sign my petition to stop FLORIDA WEATHER right meow!!!!!

Fixed it for you.

Thank you for your thoughtful response and your...missing link R440

[quote]SURFSIDE, Fla. (AP) — Rescuers searched through fresh rubble Monday after the last of the collapsed Florida condo building was demolished, which allowed crews into previously inaccessible places, including bedrooms where people were believed to be sleeping at the time of the disaster, officials said.

[quote]Teams had been unable to access areas closest to the remaining structure because of its instability, Miami-Dade County Mayor Daniella Levine Cava said.

[quote]“Truly we could not continue without bringing this building down,” she said at a news conference.

[quote]Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said the newly accessible area include master bedrooms where people were believed to be sleeping when the building collapsed.

[quote]“We will be able to access every part of that pile, which they hadn’t been able to do up to this point,” DeSantis said. “I think it’s going to move the pace. I think the momentum is very strong.”

[quote]Workers immediately began clearing some of the new debris after the demolition so rescuers could start making their way into parts of the underground garage that is of particular interest. Officials said the search effort resumed around midnight. It had been called off Saturday to allow specialists to drill holes for explosives needed for the demolition.

[quote]“As a result of the contractor who brought it down, he did it in such a way that literally we actually were back on the original pile in less than 20 minutes,” Jadallah told family members of those missing, drawing applause in a rare upbeat moment for the twice-daily meetings.

They went back to work within a few hours of the demolition and found 4 victims. The count is now at 28 recovered. I checked out a live link and the site was extremely busy with lots of people now actively going through the rubble which was not possible before due to the instabilities of the pile and surrounding building. They looked like ants crawling around everywhere and the worked through some shitty weather.

We will start to see reports with multiple fatalities now that they have good access to the pile.

Many thanks r443 and r44

Much appreciated.

There's also video of today's conditions at R413.

Sorry...r444 My apologies, I got your number wrong.

And of course thanks to others who have chimed in since my last post.

I wonder if/when they will start to have services. I would like to leave some virtual flowers, as lame as that sounds, for Cassie. Hopefully something nicer.

Maybe her family will do the "plant a tree" thing? If anyone hears about services or memorials for Cassie, please post. I know I'm not the only one with a soft spot for her.

I would also be willing to chip in to a memorial for all fur bearing beings who died. If we don't hear anything after a while about an "official" one, perhaps we could come up with something of our own?

I imagine once they find her, there will be an obit with an announcement for a memorial (or a tree or however they choose to remember her). If I see it, I will post it.

R448 *muah*

One more thing: this wasn't mentioned in the link I posted at R443 (I think I heard it on MSNBC this morning?), but they said that the demolition had finally allowed access to areas where the stairwells had been.

Between that and being able to get into the master-bedroom locations — as someone said above, the number of bodies recovered should begin to pick up.

Sorry for being a snippy bitch earlier, R436.

There will UNQUESTIONABLY be a memorial for the pets who were killed by Mayor Levine Cava last night.

If she has any sense at all, the Mayor will stay far away, because if the cat people got to have their way with her, I honestly think she'd be stoned, drawn, quartered, hanged in her entrails until ALMOST dead... then burned, decapitated, and bodily-desecrated until she was nothing more than a grease spot under hundreds of tires and a patch of asphalt... then scrubbed away with holy water to remove her evil stain upon humanity.

By the time the mob was done with her, the ghost of Nicolae Ceausescu would shake his head and say, "Daaaaaaaamn, bitch, you REAAAAALLY pissed those cat people off..."

^^This person is really getting weirder and weirder.

I'm still fucked up from last night. I'm in my late 50s and have seen some shit. This was hard, and I don't even live in the state.

As days passed, I wanted it done and over as quickly as possible., and then when it was, I just wanted to go to sleep/mentally run away. Sure, have a Mary! They are free. Take a couple. Take as many as you want.

Doubling down on what Goddamn House has said for memorials. Ink me in for any non tacky ones having to do with "Our Cassie" (as long as it doesn't look as fucking tragic as what they did for Diana) and anything for the cats, dogs, and so on. I will put my money behind any memorial that is not a PETA sponsored one, I guess that's my only "no". I've always hated them, and where the fuck were they when we needed them? As usual, up their own ass.

Here we go on the moving forward part. It is not easy, but it is necessary.

You are nowhere near as entertaining or witty as you think you are, r453. You're embarrassing. you should be embarrassed.

Motherofgod....now we've invoked the ghost of Nicolae Ceausescu in this thread. What's next?

This thread is not good for anybody’s mental health.

Meds time everyone!

r450 Hey lovely. Thanks but no apologies at all necessary. This has been a hard fucking mess and feeling "hot" about it is a natural part of the situation. I see that I have been a massive cunt here and in other spots, and to those I've hurt, I am very sorry. I'm really upset but in no way does that make my lashing out OK.

I'm truly sorry.

[quote]Motherofgod....now we've invoked the ghost of Nicolae Ceausescu in this thread. What's next?

This is DL, eventually we'll get to Joan Crawford.

Tear down that BITCH of a bearing wall!

r450 They did! Just for you!

Have a refreshing beverage darling! God knows you deserve it.

How did they get into the last remaining units to search for pets like the mayor said they did?

She really was Our Cassie.

r462, they didn't. The Mayor didn't tell the whole truth. The demolition crew wasn't allowed to look anywhere that a demolition charge wasn't placed, and crew members were threatened with on-the-spot termination for venturing into even adjacent rooms to look. There aren't a whole lot of companies in that industry, so getting fired for it would have been career-ending for most of them.

That said, I do believe that if they'd directly observed a cat, they WOULD have risked getting fired, knowing the immense PR blowback would have almost certainly saved their job (as long as they were successful... if the cat got away, they would have been fucked).

But how did they enter the units without keys?

[Quote]This is DL, eventually we'll get to Joan Crawford.

So Datalounge has our very own Godwin's law? It makes infinite sense.

I think most condos like that require front door locks with master keys (ie, one key can open any door on the floor, other keys can only open doors to specific units). The expectation is that if you're at home alone, you can bolt the door from inside (and if someone kicks it open, it'll make enough noise to attract attention). Remember, by the time you get to someone's front door, you've ALREADY gotten past at LEAST one other security barrier, and cameras are everywhere, so it's not really a big deal. In any case, the condo association has the right to enter if necessary (water leak, suspected fire, etc).

R466 Reductio Ad Benghazi, is the more commonly used term

r463 She really was, doll. She really is.

Everyone get some good sleep. Tomorrow is another day, and hopefully we make it a better one for the Cassie's, Coco's and so many other stories we have yet to learn.

Mia Ghost 👻 Bitch Now

I thought that the demolition might uncover animal corpses..

Anyone know what kind of condition these bodies are in? I can't imagine them being anywhere near one piece.

R464, anything to back up your assertion?

The Washington Post ran a story on the structural engineer yesterday. It's interesting because they haven't dug up any skeletons in his closet or anyone willing to malign him on or off record.

What would they find skeletons? He's a contractor hired by many condos to do this work. He told them it was in bad condition.

It's almost unheard of for buildings to have DELIBERATE design shortcomings, and rare to have major design errors simply because civil engineering has SO MANY layers of review and cross-checking... ESPECIALLY any building that has "groundbreaking" design elements. If you want to do something that isn't officially certified by vendor specs, you'll have to hire yet another lab to independently test, validate, and certify your proposed use.

Things DO get BUILT improperly, but failures are almost never due to fundamental design errors. And most things the media CALLS "design errors" are cases where the code-specified standard itself was (later) found to be inadequate, and the engineer did exactly what he or she was supposed to do. Civil engineering is one of the most neurotically anal-retentive fields on earth, because buildings have been literally ordered demolished over missing paperwork, even when there was no disagreement that it was overwhelmingly likely to be just fine.

Case in point: the Washington Metro silver line's tracks into Dulles Airport. The extension into the airport was planned decades ago, and they pre-built the column foundations for future use to cut costs & reduce future disruptions. Unfortunately, the documentation was lost, and there's no way to re-certify them. Even if they demolished & analyzed one, without documentation, there's no guarantee the others are identical. So... they ended up rebuilding ALL of them, because no civil engineer would jeopardize his license, career, and reputation by certifying something with unknowns.

In the case of something like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, the error was field-wide, changed the way such bridges are designed, and forced mitigations to be retrofitted onto existing bridges. Ditto, when something like an earthquake causes a collapse.

In Surfside, they need to determine whether the failure was due to a fundamental error, a construction error, a shortcoming in the code requirements, etc. Once they've determined the root cause(s), other buildings with the same deficiency can be identified, and it can be mitigated. The mitigations will take years to do "properly", but band-aid fixes will almost certainly be applied a lot sooner.

Let's take column failure for example. One relatively straightforward band-aid is to cast additional concrete & rebar around an at-risc column, then weld a stainless-steel jacket around the outside to keep spalled concrete in place.

The big problem comes in garages... if you increase the diameter of columns, you might not be able to fit as many cars between them. At best, the building might have to switch to valet parking for guests, so cars can be packed into a smaller space... or pay market rates for off-site parking nearby (if it's even available). In most cities, parking requirements are specified by code... if your building can't satisfy them, the city could condemn the whole building until the ass'n comes up with a way to eliminate enough units (by buying out the owners & leaving them vacant, or possibly by facilitating their purchase by adjacent owners & combination into one or two bigger units (eliminating a space or two from the code-mandated minimum). That's why NEW buildings overwhelmingly favor long-span garage elements... it gives a little more "wiggle room" for future retrofits by minimizing the number of spaces that might be lost.

To the poster who said the Condo Association has keys to all/some units, that's not true, at least where I live. In apartments, since you don't own them, maintenance and others have the right to enter the building whether or not you are at home. You are required to give them a set of keys. My condo key is specific to my condo and garage. I cannot use my key to enter anyone else's condo and the HOA does not have a set of keys to my home. In fact, when I bought my condo, I had the locks changed.

To enter those units that may have been locked, the firefighters most like used axes to get into the condos.

Right but the master key would’ve been in the building somewhere pre collapse unless an escapee took it out with them, seems unlikely

There are no master keys for private condominiums.

Each owner has their own key to their own lock. It’s not an apartment building.

Interesting... all along, the Surfside mayor has been worried about the condition of the north building. In the first couple of days, he said that if he lived there he would evacuate. I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. It's pretty amazing that the backroom conflicts have not yet leaked to the media.

DL won't accept the link to the Miami Herald:

[quote] Burkett said the town has been responding to inquiries from large buildings in town and advising them to do a full structural review of their buildings. The town is also doing a “deep dive” into the sister building north of Champlain Tower South Condo.

[quote] “We have deep concerns about that building,” he said.

Yes I live in a condo and only a couple people I trust have a set in case of emergencies.

*set of keys

I hear you, R481. I live in a free standing, single-family home, and I have placed keys with two of my long-time neighbors (whom I trust implicitly). I'm single and terrified by the idea that I might be in a car accident, or have a medical emergency.....and no one would be able to get into my house in a timely manner, to care for my dogs. (my family members live out-of-state). It's also why I have a card (like the one below) in my wallet, with a tag on my key ring.

I owned a condo in St. Augustine FL where in the bylaws all had to provide a key to the property management.

The NYT had another detail on the north condo:

[quote] “We have deep concerns about that building, given that we don’t know what happened” at Champlain South, Mr. Burkett said. Some residents of Champlain North had taken authorities up on their offer of alternative housing, he said.

I really am doubtful that all is well in the other building. It sounds like a big problem was in the concrete used in the building-- the demolition expert said that it was incredibly soft, according to ENR (Engineering News Report).

The mayor of Surfside, Charles Burkette said in a TV interview last night that he personally would not stay in the South Tower. Soothing words to its residents from the mayor.

It looks like Hurricane Elsa isn't going to pass anywhere near Miami after all. Oops.

R486 sure u meant north tower..the still standing one

I would like to thank R476 for the excellent explanation.

The cats got out and moved on to new careers

R476 is one of these guys that make us stay on DL. Of course, I will use this knowledge and brag with next time I am in DC.

R485 I read that report as well and it totally makes sense if you look at the condition of the concrete rubble, the concrete looks like it disintegrated and you don’t see many solid chunks left like you would expect in a large building made from concrete, it’s mostly powder.

I also looked at the condition of the rebar from pictures online and the majority looked un oxidized to me. It possible that the concrete may have been poorly mixed, not properly cured or the wrong type was used and this led to the building’s instability, but it’s certainly not the only factor.

AC just asked one of the IDF guys, Yuval Klein, if they were finding any voids in the wreckage:

"To be honest, not at all. Not so many voids; almost no voids at all. The pancake, as you said, is very, very stacked. Stacked concrete. This is something we've seen in the past in several places. No voids, sorry to tell you."

What do you think of the construction next door causing the building to shake?

[quote] the construction next door causing the building to shake

"C'mon, shake your building, baby, do that condo."

Re: pic at R485…that’s the biggest coffin I’ve ever seen. My family doesn’t do coffins, but I guess they make them bigger sizes for the fats? It must weigh a ton…I notice the pall bearers aren't carrying it.

Too soon R495

Who was Cassie and why does DL care about her?

How long will it likely take for them to get through that whole pile of rubble?

If they took Marie Kondo’s advice to get rid of extra shit it may not have fallen so hard. Don’t live by Kondo, die by condo.

[quote] How long will it likely take for them to get through that whole pile of rubble?

It will go faster now. I'd say they will be done in two weeks. They are hauling off a lot of it to go through later.

How soon will a new condo or hotel go up in its place?

Pic of giant coffin that isn't behind a paywall, please!

Definitely will rebuild, same as WTC. Money is very important. Propriety and respect is a secondary concern if it is a concern at all.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

From the NYT article:

"Still, crews made progress, searching parts of the site that had been unreachable before the demolition on Sunday night. They found 12 more bodies on Monday and Tuesday, bringing the confirmed death toll to 36. More than 100 residents remain missing in the wake of the collapse of Champlain Towers South on June 24.

Officials also released on Tuesday the names of three additional victims: Nancy Kress Levin, 76; her son Jay Kleiman, 52; and Francis Fernandez Plasencia, 67. In 2019, Ms. Levin, had resigned her position as vice president of the condo board, along with the board’s president, Anette Goldstein, saying they were frustrated by the objections that kept derailing progress on repairs to the building."

Francis Fernandez Plasencia was in #411, the condo next door to Cassie's. Just sayin'.

[quote]Interesting... all along, the Surfside mayor has been worried about the condition of the north building. In the first couple of days, he said that if he lived there he would evacuate. I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. It's pretty amazing that the backroom conflicts have not yet leaked to the media.

r480 r486 I think if the building is currently within the city and county guidelines for safety, all the mayor can do is state his opinion on whether people should stay there, or not. The Crestview building in North Miami Beach was a different story, they weren't in compliance for years. And even if a building is not in compliance, that's the fault of the HOA, not the city. The mayor or county administrator's job is to now create more strict regulations, and that will likely be a years long collective effort, with all the municipalities, residents, engineers, insurance companies, and on and on.

I think many of the people in the North Tower who have left have only done so because of being horribly inconvenienced by the work in the restricted area and the traffic. I've seen on the news that it takes the residents forever to get into the restricted area, similar to how Ground Zero was after 9/11. Unless you are retired it would be a huge pain in the ass to deal with that everyday.

Those funeral photos are so heartbreaking and the thought of those two sisters buried in the same coffin just ............ I have no words. I feel for the recovery workers pulling dead bodies out of rubble. I could not stomach that. I guess they're finding the bodies mostly intact.

R499 Where have you been? if you missed out on Cassie, you've missed out on a lot of other things, not just her. Really, these threads have a lot of worth, and carry a lot of history. Don't let the length get you frustrated. Many posters here called a number of issues that ended up being true. Not in happy ways, but pretty much on the dot.

Also, Cassie aside (as if) there are a couple of hot guys that made it out fine. Worth the price of reading about alone.

Thanks, r506!

R485 and R492, link to the ENR article? Thanks!

Seawater is a Gilamonster Motherfucker

[quote] the concrete used in the building-- the demolition expert said that it was incredibly soft,

I didn’t think so.

[quote] I guess they're finding the bodies mostly intact.

What makes you say that? How many intact bodies can fit two to a casket?

It must smell real bad there.

I think they are finding a lot of bodies because if they were only finding human remains they would say so. The AP:

[quote] Miami-Dade Assistant Fire Chief Raide Jadallah told family members in a private briefing Wednesday that workers had pulled 10 more bodies from the rubble and additional human remains. Jadallah says only 32 victims have been identified.

Well, they usually try to soften the blow with the families and don’t say, “Hey. We found what we think is your Uncle Rob’s toe. Though it could be a finger.”

They may not be finding intact bodies after all.

This must put a damper on Vanky’s summer at the beach… GOOD

“Remains” can mean either intact bodies or discrete bits and pieces. While this fed link specifically regards importation, the legal definition of the word is the same in every state: rotisserie, spatchcocked, or party bucket.

[quote]Human remains means a deceased human body or any portion of a deceased human body, except:

[quote]Clean, dry bones or bone fragments; human hair; teeth; fingernails or toenails; or

[quite]A deceased human body and portions thereof that have already been fully cremated before import; or

[quote]Human cells, tissues, or cellular or tissue-based products intended for implantation, transplantation, infusion, or transfer into a human recipient.

This is only the beginning.

I think most bodies are likely still in on piece, just very squished or compacted. If you think of how the building fell, it just squashed them where they lay but it wouldn't have broken them up into small body parts. Most probably had major trauma to the head or chest that killed them.

Hottie Jew survivor Gavriel in short shorts! Yasssss bitch

It must be a bad hair day for Gavriel.

R524, you obviously don’t know how the human body reacts to [bold]tons[/bold] of concrete falling on top of it.

It’s a little more than a boink on the noggin killing you.

...Working from a set of 1979 building plans posted online by the town of Surfside, Loizeaux quickly saw the existing structure did not align with the drawings. Champlain Towers had a reinforced concrete structure with flat-plate floor slabs and lightly braced shear walls. The relatively thin slabs, lightly reinforced near the top of the slab, were supported directly on columns.

While noting the plans were not verified as as-builts, Loizeaux reported the built dimensions, structural reinforcement and required concrete strength seemed to vary—at least in certain locations. The variations were not necessarily consistent.

In one area, for example, the columns measured 24 in. in diameter, while the plans showed them to be 16 in. in diameter. On the other hand, Loizeaux reported, columns in one section of the building should have been constructed with 6,000-psi concrete, according to the plans. Instead, he estimated—without verifying via testing—the concrete’s actual strength was “not even close” and “much softer” than 6,000 psi.

CDI didn’t take any core samples, Loizeaux said. But when he asked two of his drillers, separately, to describe the strength of the concrete, both replied, “Really, really soft,” he says.

Some good news: Jonah Handler's injuries were minor and he was released from the hospital a few days after the collapse.

The Gonzalez ladies have a longer road to recovery, but are improving. (Angela was in medically induced coma for several days following the collapse)

Oh, I can't imagine. The poor girl. It's amazing what cortisol and adrenaline can do.

[Quote]Deven Gonzalez was conscious when the building collapsed and throughout her traumatic rescue, her coach said. She remembers the details vividly and is having trouble sleeping, haunted by nightmares.

The Mayor says the search and rescue phase is over and now they are doing a recovery operation.

[quote] having trouble sleeping, haunted by nightmares.

Jesus. I can only imagine.

I'm just now learning of the Gonzalez mother and daughter. I thought the only survivors pulled from the rubble were the 15 year old boy and his mother who later died.

From what I read the Gonzalez mother and daughter were kind of tossed free onto another pile of rubble and they got themselves out as they weren't buried - just injured.

About 35 people were pulled from the rubble in the hours after the collapse. I suspect that the boy's story was reported because a passerby helped pull him out, and the story got out that way. The others rescued have probably chosen not to come forward yet. I know I wouldn't until I was good and ready.

I think that because those rescues have not been widely reported, people have concluded that the rescue effort has been disorganized. But that's not the case. The people who could have been rescued were.

I don't think 35 people were pulled from the rubble. 35 people were rescued but many of them were on balconies and trapped in the section that didn't fall but they couldn't get out.

There were not 35 people pulled alive from the *rubble* in the hours after the collapse. There were four; one of whom died. However, there were 30+ survivors in the standing portion of the building. Some managed to get out on their own, but many had to be plucked off their balconies by firefighters due to debris & damage blocking stairwells.

I've been wondering how insurance companies will deal with the survivors, assuming they had their condos insured. Will they consider this a Force Majure and refuse to pay?

The problem with condo insurance is most people are cheap, so they insure their unit for far less than the market value, assuming that the whole unit would never be destroyed. I’m sure the insurers will deny claims based on pre-existing construction defects. I suspect the whole thing will be a write-off.

As if, r539!

The insurance won't pay one damned DIME to anybody for anything. They never do.

I doubt that, r541. I do think this could potentially have a huge impact on what properties insurance companies will cover, and a demand for more thorough inspections. Condo buyers, and owners, particularly in Florida, may have some issues shopping for insurance for the foreseeable future.

This will be "Hurricane Andrew" event for insurers. They'll pay generously with minimal quibbling, but double condo insurance rates going forward. This was a hundred units in a modestly-priced building. The PR optics and political blowback from being stingy THIS TIME would be severe and long-lasting. The insurers will just take the hit, write it off, and make sure they've clamped down before the next collapse.

Search for survivors will end today at midnight.

[quote] The PR optics and political blowback from being stingy THIS TIME would be severe and long-lasting. The insurers will just take the hit, write it off, and make sure they've clamped down before the next collapse

The insurers didn't do anything wrong. They'll sue whoever is responsible. If's it's the board members who were responsible, they'll sue the board members or the estates of dead board members.

Individual condo owner's policies cover Contents (personal belongings) against covered losses (they don't cover all types of losses), damage to the interior of the unit, living expenses (when condo is damaged). And every policy has a limit (the maximum the insurance will cover). Once the limit is reached, that's it

Regular home insurance doesn't cover earthquakes/earth movement, sink holes, faulty workmanship, war, rioting and a few other things

This loss will fall under the building's insurance policy. The insurance will pay out until the policy's limit is reached. That's it. That's why the first lawsuit was filed hours after the collapse

At a legal hearing, it was revealed that the board has about $48 million in insurance coverage (to protect the board), while the oceanfront land is valued at $50 to $100 million. The board members can be held criminally responsible.

R543

Insurance will pay either judgement amounts, or try to work out settlements so everyone gets something.

Sadly way American civil legal system works first in and awarded a judgement could see entire insurance amount depleted. Local Florida courts at some point may try to consolidate all claims under one case and or otherwise work with insurance company, board (whoever is still living), or whoever to set up a fund using proceeds from insurance and proceeds from sale of land.

Going forward property insurers in Florida may likely step up their game in terms of inspection requirements. This could be anything from entire building policy to those seeking individual policies. Banks or anyone else providing financing again either for an entire building or say individual mortgages also may follow suit.

Don't know about Florida state or local laws, but in New York City if city is found to be even only partially responsible in damage awards, it can be forced to pay entire judgement if other parties fail to do so for various reasons. This is one reason since Bloomberg's time city tries to settle lawsuits out of court instead of risking trial.

r125 here, rescue mission ending exactly two weeks later as I said. So 9/11 did indeed set the precedent for these type of rescue missions.

Of course the rescue phase is officially over. Mayor Daniella Levine Cava had the last-remaining living victims brutally killed on Sunday night. Mission accomplished, that evil crone can go celebrate now. Then rot in hell for eternity for her atrocity.

[quote]The board members can be held criminally responsible.

As much as people want someone held criminally responsible, I highly doubt it's going to happen. This is one of those unfortunate catastrophes that's a result of many collective poor decisions by many people. The builder, the residents, their attorneys, the condo management, the board, the city, the county, the insurers.

I'm in a condo myself and big jobs like the one needed to fix the structural issues always have to be approved by majority vote of the residents. If there was any provision in their charter for residents to vote for the repairs, that will likely absolve many of the board members unless it can be found they falsified or withheld documents from residents impeding their ability to make a good decision. And the fact that board members themselves perished will help the case of those who lived.

R547

Not so much as anything to do with 9/11/01 per se, but simple medical science. After two weeks chances of finding any living survivors are slim to nil in such disasters.

Short video of a tour of Apt 611 July 17, 2020.

It does look like it was a nice place to live with that view and that beach right there.

The 11 tier collapsed. It was next to Cassie's tier.

Some comments from video above

Maria Iliana Monteagudo ended up buying this condo, and she woke up in time to get to the far stairwell and get to safety. Her story of being jolted awake, seeing a huge crack in her wall, and running for safety is harrowing.

611 is the condo that Iliana Monteagudo lived in, she's the woman who escaped with about 3 seconds to spare, was awoken by noise, tried to close her balcony door, then noticed a crack on her ceiling snaking down the wall, and ran for the exit, but didn't take the stairwell closest to her condo unit, apparently unaware it was there, and you can see that exit sign around 0:50 in the video, instead she ran to the stairwell next to the elevators, which saved her life, as she was going down those stairs at about the 4th floor is when the building collapsed, the first section to collapse where her condo was located.

Notice that there are no "capitals" (another concrete slab under the main floor slab) of all those columns. That would have left the floor slab vulnerable to "punch through shear" failure and the entire building would come down. An excellent case of bad engineering practice. Also notice the stalactites hanging from the ceiling. An indication of water leaking and mineral deposits.

I also noticed how skinny the columns were. (I live in a 10 story bldg. in NE MN w/ a 3 story garage below and our columns are at least 3 times the size of these.)

Just think right above was unit 711 featured in the Ring video that has been posted where the walls and floors could be seen racking right and left as the building came down.

Why the rush for the demolition?

Why "just take it down"?

One of the comments on the video "As someone who lived in Miami, this building truly symbolizes Miami. It's beautiful on the outside but corrupted and rotten on the inside."

R553

Because structure is deemed unstable and thus unsafe. So to prevent anything else further happening it must come down.

This is standard procedure whenever a building partially collapses and or is found to be unstable. Local government agency charged with determining such things makes the call. If a building is unstable but not to point of collapse or whatever, orders can be given to shore it up so permanent repairs can be made to make building safe again.

Wow in that video @ R551 that garage ceiling slab is like nothing I've ever seen before. I lived in a highrise building in SoCA that had a problem with water leaking through the surface level driveway (which had lots of built-in planters and a fountain) into the garage below but it was just where there were expansion joints or a crack. It was going on for years and finally we (the HOA) tore up the top layer of the slab and replaced the waterproofing membrane and then replaced the top layer of the slab. Apparently there was a structural slab, then membrane on top, then the "road" surface layer of concrete. It was a major project but solved the problem. This building in Miami was really bad....to get stalagtites like that hanging from a concrete ceiling must take many years of serious water infiltration. And it was all over, not just in one place. Scary.

[quote]She has acknowledged that the birds are dead by this point, due to lack of water/food.

They were probably eaten by those cats which undoubtedly went feral a few hours after the collapse.

R549 My understanding as a condo board member for 18 years is that who can decide when major repairs are needed depends on state laws and specific condo documents. In my state, and based on our condo docs, a board vote is sufficient to authorize any needed repairs without a vote of other owners. The disaster in FL is an example of why. Of course, it’s always best to defend the decision with documentation and discussion meetings with all owners.

In contrast, our board cannot unilaterally decide to terminate the condo or decrease what owners can do in their units from what state law and the condo docs allow (e.g., forbidding smoking or washers and dryers in the units because they were there originally). Those kinds of changes require an owner-wide vote with high percentages of the beneficial interests of the owners to make such changes.

Does anyone have a link to the Ring video referenced in R552?

Was about to ask the same thing.

Everyone I know is deemed unstable, this is not sufficient grounds for their demolition.

I think this is the video referenced. This lady was away from her apartment, but her security camera caught the sounds.

WaPo article on various apartments and how some residents escaped, including from the one in the video.

It looked like a nice place to live by the ocean. The video of the parking garage left me shocked at how bad the concrete looked, there is no way the residents could have found the conditions acceptable.

The ring video is scary with its abrupt fade to black, I now understand how quickly it happened and it’s a miracle that anyone made it out alive.

[quote] As much as people want someone held criminally responsible, I highly doubt it's going to happen. This is one of those unfortunate catastrophes that's a result of many collective poor decisions by many people.

I agree, I read that the 2018 FIU collapse has not resulted in any criminal charges either.

r564, the parking garages in MOST buildings that are more than a few years old tend to look pretty awful compared to the rest of the building. People tolerate a higher level of ugliness in them that they'd NEVER stand for elsewhere... kind of like alleys in Manhattan neighborhoods (or roads in New York in general) that look like something you'd see in Mumbai.

The big, immediate change you're going to see in Miami 6 months from now will be "temporary" scaffolding around garage columns found to be deficient, and longer-term, additional beams (to spread the load around) & additional permanent columns... especially in garages with enough clearance to allow it without sacrificing too many spaces or the ability to park SUVs. Most won't be truly necessary (in the sense of ever making a literal difference between collapse & standing), but they'll be demanded by potential buyers and/or insurance.

Basically, it'll be like earthquake-retrofits of older buildings in California & Seattle... not necessarily mandated by law across the board, but eventually becoming almost essential to get insurance coverage at affordable rates.

[quote] I agree, I read that the 2018 FIU collapse has not resulted in any criminal charges either.

Not only that, the county just let them become approved vendors for county projects again! There is a lot of outrage here about this.

Collapsed Florida tower could have been repaired faster under a repealed law that required condo associations to hire engineers or architects to submit reports every five years about how much it would cost to keep up with repairs.

GOP Rep. Gary Aubuchon, a Republican real estate broker and homebuilder, sponsored for the repeal.

An engineer on youtube was examining the original blueprints from '79 of the lower level of the parking garage. He showed that the concrete pillars were noticeably smaller than the pillars for the part that remained standing. You've got the architect and construction company responsible right from the beginning. They started the ball rolling. So what does this say for the northern condo building? They better be sure to keep it impeccably maintained.

[R566], Seattle here. The pillars in the parking garage of our building are far sturdier than Champlain Towers. We had a requirement three years ago to replace shit in the parking places with cabinets that the Association sold. I chose to clean out my parking place rather than fork out several hundred dollars for cabinets that I would be req'd to assemble. I've read the horror stories from association board members and condo residents on these threads. And I'm grateful beyond words that we have a superior prop. mgt. company and an excellent Board of Directors that are proactive in the areas of repair and maintenance.

R559:

(oops, sorry for re-post; the last post on my feed was 559's)

I saw that video, R569....or I think it was the same video/engineer. Very curious indeed.

It's an interesting watch, for those who haven't seen it. (discusses column-widths @ 20:50)

Eep. A statement from Cassie's husband, Mike, earlier today. 😢

Our dear Cassie was a beauty.

Yes R573 That's the one. Thanks for pulling it up. A must watch.

Interesting newsletter from a major California condo law firm about several aspects of the condo disaster, including board responsibilities/liabilities and what the various types of condo and owner insurance policies are likely to pay or not pay.

Link to Part 5 at the ready when this fills up.

[quote]GOP Rep. Gary Aubuchon, a Republican real estate broker and homebuilder, sponsored for the repeal.

This motherfucker deserves to be crushed under a thousand tons of pulverized concrete.

Fascinating video at R573.

R568 That greedy asshole deserves to be sued for this, lives could have been saved.

Well, it’s not the first time for this putz -

[quote] In 2009, Aubuchon's home construction business was involved in a controversy concerning homes that were built with defective Chinese drywall which rendered the homes unusable because of mold.

I love the last sentence. “ In 2010, Rep. Aubuchon spearheaded the repeal of a 2008 law that required Condos and Coops to inspect every 5- years and set aside funds for anticipated repairs. This led to the Surfside Tower collapse in June 2021.”

He is not available for comment. Honestly these people who cause such misery and death should be financially devastated. They're incapable of shame. Money is the only thing that matters to them.

we don't need no job-killing regulations, people should have the freedom to die when their homes collapse, just as they need the freedom to die from covid.

--Fla. (and all other) republicunts

Here's the video I mentioned above. The moment before the collapse by the tourists next door filming the flooding into the garage.

Here's a real estate video of that penthouse.

If this wasn't in the original plans how did they get it built and who thought it was a good idea to add essentially more load and a 12th floor.

Most of the units shown, as gussied up as they are (and in a bad way for the most part) still look cramped, dated and depressing to me. Even if I didn't know what I know now, I would feel claustrophobic in those little apartments. As hotel suites for a couple of nights? No problem. My day to day life there? No.

I guess I won't be having these problems now.

Here's Part 5

The legitimate Part 5

This is so sad. Death count now confirmed at 64 which is helping to close gap between those still listed as missing, it's a terrible price.

In some cases entire family units including multiple generations wiped out.

I agree, r588.

That penthouse looks very cold and austere. Barely a rug or a homey touch in the place.

[quote]Most of the units shown, as gussied up as they are (and in a bad way for the most part) still look cramped, dated and depressing to me. Even if I didn't know what I know now, I would feel claustrophobic in those little apartments. As hotel suites for a couple of nights? No problem. My day to day life there? No.

They definitely wouldn't pass muster with DL's Tasteful Friends.

The lawyer who died in that penthouse defended contactors and builders for code violations. Satan was in that room with her laughing as she was crushed to death while the building was falling. Sometimes dishonesty is not the best policy.

R594, I know. The irony of that is spectacularly off the charts. Like an episode of The Twilight Zone.

You know what they say about karma.

Oh, I thought she went after violations… Which made no sense because anyone walking around there could see neglect, especially on the balconies and in the car basement. I don’t care that she died now.

Big news! A cat (not Coco or Mia) made it out! More on the other thread if you can't read this article.

Binx the cat is alive! She's ALIVE!

The other cats probably made it out too and ran off. Seriously though: fuck the cats.