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Theatre Gossip #408: Changing the Subject to Irra Petina Edition

Because we've endlessly rehashed every other topic.

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by Anonymousreply 601December 26, 2020 6:11 PM

Link to previous thread.

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by Anonymousreply 1December 16, 2020 6:56 PM

If Mrs Doubtfire comes back they’ll probably have to recast the kids who have probably outgrown their roles and that’s very sad for them.

by Anonymousreply 2December 16, 2020 7:02 PM

Thanks for starting a new thread, OP... although you've virtually guaranteed that this one will not fill up as quickly as last time.

by Anonymousreply 3December 16, 2020 7:05 PM

Rob McClure is very talented. But I sincerely doubt MRS D will be back.

There was a lot of doubt (!) about the project after the crash-and-burn of TOOTSIE, long before CV-19.

by Anonymousreply 4December 16, 2020 7:08 PM

Wow, OP, this is not necessarily what I would have chosen as a thread starter, but I feel like you're a man after my own heart!

by Anonymousreply 5December 16, 2020 7:23 PM

She was easily assimilated, OP.

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by Anonymousreply 6December 16, 2020 7:57 PM

[quote]If Mrs Doubtfire comes back they’ll probably have to recast the kids who have probably outgrown their roles and that’s very sad for them.

Not as sad as having to perform in that show.

by Anonymousreply 7December 16, 2020 7:59 PM

Incidentally, what movie musicals differ greatly from their original stage counterparts? I don't mean cutting a song/scene or two but a complete overhaul. I can only think of ON THE TOWN and CABARET.

by Anonymousreply 8December 16, 2020 8:32 PM

I think PAINT YOUR WAGON is radically different as a movie than as a stage show (but I'm not that fond of either, so I'm not 100% on that). They kept some but not all of the score, but I believe the characters and plot have been changed.

by Anonymousreply 9December 16, 2020 8:34 PM

What a stupid name Irra is.

by Anonymousreply 10December 16, 2020 8:44 PM

I'm not familiar with Irma La Douce, but didn't the movie get rid of the songs entirely and just used the music as underscoring?

by Anonymousreply 11December 16, 2020 8:44 PM

[quote]Incidentally, what movie musicals differ greatly from their original stage counterparts? I don't mean cutting a song/scene or two but a complete overhaul. I can only think of ON THE TOWN and CABARET.

I'm not sure if these are considered complete overhauls, but they are changes affecting the show:

Little Shop of Horrors changed the ending, and thereby the meaning of the entire show.

Hair, the Movie gave structure to the show making it far better than its stage version.

Evita the Movie softened some of the anger inherent in the stage version.

by Anonymousreply 12December 16, 2020 8:46 PM

Annie.

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by Anonymousreply 13December 16, 2020 8:50 PM

[quote]I'm not familiar with Irma La Douce, but didn't the movie get rid of the songs entirely and just used the music as underscoring?

Yes, also FANNY. And there were a number of early movie musicals that idiotically cut almost the entire scores of those shows, sometimes leaving only one or two big hits from the original and adding songs written by others.

by Anonymousreply 14December 16, 2020 8:51 PM

4 gutsy Broadway wags predict the invisible Tony Awards:

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by Anonymousreply 15December 16, 2020 8:55 PM

If you want to see a good backstage look at how stupid, small minded, and unnecessary "Broadway wags" and critics are, watch the documentary "Show Business" from 2004. It's a look at that season, and there are regular roundtables of "wags." They are truly shallow and jaw dropping dumb. I'm actually very glad most have lost their jobs. They were unnecessary at every level.

by Anonymousreply 16December 16, 2020 8:58 PM

R16, isn't that the docu in which a certain "wag," who shall remain nameless, predicts that AVENUE Q will be a huge failure on Broadway, asking rhetorically, "Who's the audience for a show like that?"

'nuff said :-)

by Anonymousreply 17December 16, 2020 9:04 PM

[quote]Evita the Movie softened some of the anger inherent in the stage version.

The funny thing about that is that the filmmakers did that to appease the Peronist president at the time so they could get permission to film on the Casa Rosada. However, in retaliation to Madonna's casting, the Argentineans had made their own film about her simply titled EVA PERON: THE TRUE STORY, which was released around the same time. Eva's portrayal in that is very similar to LuPone's in that she is abrasive, crass, and foul-mouthed and is shown to have slept her way to power. She also advocates censorship and the imprisonment and torture of dissenters.

So, while the Argentineans hated the musical EVITA, their portrayal of her was much worse by comparison than the Hollywood film.

by Anonymousreply 18December 16, 2020 9:11 PM

R18, I didn't know most of that story, and it's really interesting. Thanks so much for posting.

by Anonymousreply 19December 16, 2020 9:15 PM

[quote]Annie.

You lied. That's not Annie. This is Annie.

(And Andrea McArdle is still a shitty actor).

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by Anonymousreply 20December 16, 2020 9:23 PM

I couldn't bear to watch and listen to the "wags" in that video but can anyone who did, please tell me if they think my boyfriend Aaron Tveit will win an uncontested Tony ?

by Anonymousreply 21December 16, 2020 9:27 PM

r8 - Wonderful Town/My Sister Eileen

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by Anonymousreply 22December 16, 2020 9:43 PM

If we left everything up to those wags, we wouldn’t even have [italic]Oklahoma![/italic]

by Anonymousreply 23December 16, 2020 9:43 PM

My Sister Eileen has the same source material as Wonderful Town (and thus tells the same story) but it's no way based on Wonderful Town. I don't really understand how the rights could be given simultaneously to two different entities, but there you have it.

MGM's Babes in Arms would be a perfect early example of Hollywood buying up the rights to a hit Broadway musical and then throwing out most of the brilliant score (by Rodgers & Hart, no less). I think this was why Richard Rodgers did not sell the rights to Oklahoma, Carousel, The King and I, South Pacific and The Sound of Music to MGM.

by Anonymousreply 24December 16, 2020 9:55 PM

The difference with Fanny is that Harold Rome was consulted, and almost the entire stage score of songs was used as underscoring, and in ways that really highlighted the music and the drama. ("To My Wife" was actually filmed, with Chevalier singing at a party for Fanny, but they decided to stick with no music

by Anonymousreply 25December 16, 2020 10:31 PM

"Anything Goes" lost most of its songs, too. Merman sang a line or two from the title song over the titles, then a weird "I Get a Kick Out of You," and "You're the Top" with Bing Crosby. Crosby also sang "There'll Always Be a Lady Fair." Everything else was new and not by Porter.

by Anonymousreply 26December 16, 2020 10:35 PM

[quote]ink PAINT YOUR WAGON is radically different as a movie than as a stage show

The movie keeps Ben Rumson as the lead, but elevates Mormon second lead Elizabeth to leading lady while cutting Rumson's daughter Jennifer. The fact of Ben buying, and then marrying, Elizabeth from her Mormon husband was a subplot in the play, but it's the whole plot in the movie.

by Anonymousreply 27December 16, 2020 10:38 PM

R21, here are the current Tony predictions from Goldderby's experts in list form:

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by Anonymousreply 28December 16, 2020 11:29 PM

Do they predict when they'll actually hold the awards?

by Anonymousreply 29December 16, 2020 11:34 PM

Irma La Dude

Time to update this play for a trans person.

by Anonymousreply 30December 17, 2020 1:29 AM

Irra -The Queen of Floperetta!

by Anonymousreply 31December 17, 2020 1:57 AM

Just a heads up...one of Dick Cavett's guests tomorrow evening is Kathryn Kuhlman.

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by Anonymousreply 32December 17, 2020 2:03 AM

I BELIEVE in MIRacles!

by Anonymousreply 33December 17, 2020 2:05 AM

George Abbott, Lillian Gish, Constance Towers, and our Irra.

"Anya" (1965)

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by Anonymousreply 34December 17, 2020 2:05 AM

AnYUHHH, how long will you wanderrrr?

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by Anonymousreply 35December 17, 2020 2:10 AM

And just who ate her buttock? is that why she was such a half assed performer?

by Anonymousreply 36December 17, 2020 2:34 AM

R8

The Gay Divorse Anything Goes The Boys from Syracuse The Band Wagon The Merry Widow

by Anonymousreply 37December 17, 2020 3:02 AM

R24, in their heyday, the large movie studios had a significant revenue stream from publishing music. That's the major reason that musicals from Broadway lost everything but the very most famous songs and the film scores were then filled out with new music.

The studios published that new music. Therefore, the studios collected the royalties on any subsequent sales of that new music. Since the studios were paying to produce the films and promote the films, they wanted to keep as much of the income generated from the project as possible. From the studio boss's perspective, it makes no sense to make that huge investment in a property and then have Cole Porter or Leonard Bernstein be the guy who made the money.

As most people across the country never get to Broadway, the studios only needed the famous hit show's title and a few of the most famous songs from it. The other unknown songs would make them no money, so why bother? Use songs that will pay the producer.

by Anonymousreply 38December 17, 2020 5:00 AM

[quote]Little Shop of Horrors changed the ending, and thereby the meaning of the entire show.

how so? by making it a happy ending?

by Anonymousreply 39December 17, 2020 5:15 AM

But what of the Skinner poontang?

by Anonymousreply 40December 17, 2020 6:59 AM

R39 pretty much. At the end of the movie Audrey and Seymour are not eaten by the plant.

by Anonymousreply 41December 17, 2020 9:52 AM

The alternate electors are gonna give it to Isaac Powell

by Anonymousreply 42December 17, 2020 10:58 AM

R12, R41 and others: Apparently they shot both, and recent home releases have the original, which is now called the Alternate Since it’s not what they originally released

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by Anonymousreply 43December 17, 2020 12:09 PM

[quote]pretty much. At the end of the movie Audrey and Seymour are not eaten by the plant.

The happy ending that was released in theaters does end with a sinister touch. After Seymour and Audrey go off happily to live in their dream home, little versions of Audrey 2 are seen sprouting by their white picket fence.

by Anonymousreply 44December 17, 2020 12:38 PM

On stage, Little Shop is a brilliant, funny morality play that directly addresses its audience in the finale to give its dark warning about feeding the plants of ambition and greed.

On screen, it’s just a monster movie, especially with the extremely cliche “the monster still lives” ending.

by Anonymousreply 45December 17, 2020 12:52 PM

To me, the most interesting change from stage to film is the flipping of “Cool” and “Krupke” in WSS.

It makes so much sense the way the film does it, that people are surprised and sometimes off put by seeing “Cool” before the rumble and “Krupke” after two main characters bleed to death on stage.

by Anonymousreply 46December 17, 2020 12:56 PM

R45 is correct. Wonderfully ironic, but correct. The "new" ending for the film was decreed necessary to make sure the film was a hit at the box office. That's why the film's producers spent a fortune to go back into production to create it.

Weaken their film artistically to strengthen it at the box office. In the end, ambition and greed still won the day.

by Anonymousreply 47December 17, 2020 12:57 PM

The new ending of Little Shop is stupid. At the beginning, you have the girls singing, “You better tell your mama something’s gonna get her, everybody beware.” It’s foreshadowing what’s to come. If Audrey and Seymour don’t get eaten, what’s the point of that song?

by Anonymousreply 48December 17, 2020 1:06 PM

[quote] To me, the most interesting change from stage to film is the flipping of “Cool” and “Krupke” in WSS. It makes so much sense the way the film does it, that people are surprised and sometimes off put by seeing “Cool” before the rumble and “Krupke” after two main characters bleed to death on stage.

The other song placement change was to move "I Feel Pretty" from after the deaths to much earlier in the film. Robert Wise felt there shouldn't be any light numbers after the rumble, and I think it was the right choice, especially for a movie, in which ill-placed songs can be jarring in a way they wouldn't be onstage.

by Anonymousreply 49December 17, 2020 1:08 PM

Your mama didn't get eaten, did she?

So what's the point of the song in either version?

by Anonymousreply 50December 17, 2020 1:08 PM

She probably does get eaten in the stage version. It’s implied that the plant takes over the world and eats everyone.

by Anonymousreply 51December 17, 2020 1:10 PM

Not theater, but the great literary scholar changed the ending of her film," The Scarlet Letter." When questioned she is said to have responded to the criticism by claiming that no one had read the book anyway, so changing the ending would make no difference.

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by Anonymousreply 52December 17, 2020 1:15 PM

Indeed!

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by Anonymousreply 53December 17, 2020 1:20 PM

^^ That poster misspells my name! ^^

by Anonymousreply 54December 17, 2020 1:32 PM

Fun fact: In the original Little Shop of Horrors, at the end of the show, plastic vines were lowered over the audience to scare the hell out of them.

by Anonymousreply 55December 17, 2020 1:35 PM

I saw the original LITTLE SHOP. We sat on the front row, and, at the end, the vines *came* for us. My pregnant friend was genuinely terrified.

by Anonymousreply 56December 17, 2020 1:39 PM

Yes, that trick with the vines looked great from the small balcony at the Orpheum.

by Anonymousreply 57December 17, 2020 1:45 PM

The other SUNSET BOULEVARD musical!

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by Anonymousreply 58December 17, 2020 1:47 PM

But the BIGGEST change in the film of West Side Story was including the Shark boys in the number America. It cinched Oscars for Rita Moreno and especially George Chakiris (who doesn't do much more in the film)

It's really inconceivable that geniuses Robbins, Bernstein, Laurents and Sondheim didn't originally think of that.

by Anonymousreply 59December 17, 2020 1:48 PM

Maybe they wanted a number just for the women, other than the sappy " I Feel Pretty."

by Anonymousreply 60December 17, 2020 1:51 PM

I imagine that's true, r60, something about divvying up the numbers more evenly for the dancers, but I'm always disappointed when I see the show onstage. There's a sexual energy that's missing without the men.

by Anonymousreply 61December 17, 2020 2:00 PM

Never understood, though, why the Shark women are all pro-USA and all the men, anti.

by Anonymousreply 62December 17, 2020 2:09 PM

R 59, I believe America was originally conceived for the men and women to sing, but Robbins made it an all female number.

by Anonymousreply 63December 17, 2020 2:12 PM

The Shark men essentially feel emasculated in America as opposed to their homeland. The women all see America as a land of opportunity.

by Anonymousreply 64December 17, 2020 2:16 PM

W: “Free to be anything you choose”

M: “Free to wait tables and shine shoes”

by Anonymousreply 65December 17, 2020 2:23 PM

Yes, I know what they say—but why divided by gender? I always thought there'd be people on opposite sides but didn't understand why it would be male vs female

by Anonymousreply 66December 17, 2020 2:35 PM

Because the women’s lives are better here. They taste independence. America is a promotion for women

“I’m an American girl now. I don’t wait!”

For the men, it’s a demotion. They may have been hot shit in their small towns in PR, but now they are serving class nobodies (who still try to boss around their women, but the women aren’t taking it anymore)

by Anonymousreply 67December 17, 2020 2:43 PM

r53 = puta sucia

by Anonymousreply 68December 17, 2020 2:47 PM

r62, you're being pedantic.

There is so much more sexual heat in the dance if the women are challenging the men and vice versa. And we've already seen a challenge dance with mixed couples in The Dance at the Gym.

by Anonymousreply 69December 17, 2020 2:47 PM

R67, thanks. R69, not so much.

by Anonymousreply 70December 17, 2020 2:53 PM

Bombshell the Musical Live Concert

From the tv show SMASH all the songs written for the Marilyn Monroe musical on the show.

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by Anonymousreply 71December 17, 2020 2:54 PM

Once saw Emily Skinner do a Sunday afternoon concert in P'town. She was a ragged wreck. She could barely keep her eyes open. She had apparently been partying all night until a few hours before the concert.

by Anonymousreply 72December 17, 2020 3:20 PM

Wasn’t the ending of LSOH changed because test audiences disapproved of its original nihilistic conclusion? The first DVD printing is also quite rare because it was quickly withdrawn from sale after David Geffen threw a hissy fit as it included the black and white footage of the original and unreleased ending.

The Frank Oz commentary on the DVD is pretty great - I think it’s the only film I’ve watched in its entirety with the director’s commentary. He drew attention to the fact that they couldn’t get one of the actresses for Crystal, Ronette, or Chiffon back for the reshoots, so you only see the faces of two of them as the camera pans down, where you then see a third pair of ankles walk by to suggest all three were present.

by Anonymousreply 73December 17, 2020 4:22 PM

[quote]On stage, Little Shop is a brilliant, funny morality play that directly addresses its audience in the finale to give its dark warning about feeding the plants of ambition and greed. On screen, it’s just a monster movie, especially with the extremely cliche “the monster still lives” ending.

Let's not be ridiculous, The overall meaning and theme of the show is still there in the movie, even if Audrey is not killed by the plant, and even with "Don't Feed the Plants" cut. I've always thought the original ending of the show and the movie was TOO dark, because Audrey is a complete innocent, and the audience really hates seeing her die, since they have come to love her so much. Also, the original ending of the movie was WAY too dark, with those huge plants destroying the city, like something out of WAR OF THE WORLDS.

[quote]The new ending of Little Shop is stupid. At the beginning, you have the girls singing, “You better tell your mama something’s gonna get her, everybody beware.” It’s foreshadowing what’s to come. If Audrey and Seymour don’t get eaten, what’s the point of that song?

Oh, for heaven's sake. Lots of people are eaten by the plant during the course of the movie. We don't specifically have to see Audrey and/or Seymour die to justify one line of the lyrics, and that line doesn't specifically refer to the deaths of those two characters.

[quote]To me, the most interesting change from stage to film is the flipping of “Cool” and “Krupke” in WSS. It makes so much sense the way the film does it, that people are surprised and sometimes off put by seeing “Cool” before the rumble and “Krupke” after two main characters bleed to death on stage.

I agree, but that nasty bitch Arthur Laurents insisted until his death -- and probably afterwards! -- that the original placement was superior. Because changing the placement for the movie was someone else's idea, so he could never accept the change, no matter how much sense it made.

[quote]The other song placement change was to move "I Feel Pretty" from after the deaths to much earlier in the film. Robert Wise felt there shouldn't be any light numbers after the rumble, and I think it was the right choice, especially for a movie, in which ill-placed songs can be jarring in a way they wouldn't be onstage.

Exactly. The placement of the intermission right after the rumble, with "I Feel Pretty" as the opening of Act II, makes that placement work (sort of), but it wouldn't have worked in the movie.

[quote]Yes, I know what they say—but why divided by gender? I always thought there'd be people on opposite sides but didn't understand why it would be male vs female

Realistically, of course, you're right, but I'm sure the number was conceived that way to make a clearer distinction between the two opposing camps, and to allow for the sort of "challenge dance" approach.

by Anonymousreply 74December 17, 2020 4:38 PM

you are the definitive insufferable word on every topic, aren't you, r74?

by Anonymousreply 75December 17, 2020 4:41 PM

But Audrey is not a complete innocent. She is one kinky bitch - there’s a clear S&M dynamic to her relationship with Orin. It’s not always equal, and it might even not always be consensual, but the black eye? The arm in the cast? It’s ambiguous, for sure, but she’s not simply an innocent defenceless victim.

She also tells Seymour that she wants to be fed to the plant. It’s granting consent, submitting to the ultimate act of sexual sublimation.

Every day a little death, indeed.

by Anonymousreply 76December 17, 2020 4:56 PM

R75 -- not definitive, just my opinions. Why do you have such a problem with me expressing my opinions? I think that makes YOU insufferable.

by Anonymousreply 77December 17, 2020 5:01 PM

This is a theatre gossip thread on the Datalounge.

We are ALL insufferable.

by Anonymousreply 78December 17, 2020 5:04 PM

Sorry r77 it's the listing and quoting of everyone's comments and making your pronouncements on each one

by Anonymousreply 79December 17, 2020 5:38 PM

Looks like it's time for a Barbara Nichols time-out...

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by Anonymousreply 80December 17, 2020 5:39 PM

[quote]It's the listing and quoting of everyone's comments and making your pronouncements on each one

Yes, R79. I know you hate that -- for some reason -- but of course I'm going to continue doing so, regardless. I think I should be free to make comments whenever I feel it necessary, whether to agree or disagree with others, and I find it more efficient to quote and comment on several posts in one response, rather than to make multiple, individual posts in response. Sorry if that doesn't make sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me.

Question: When you come across one of my posts in which I do this, why don't you just skip it without writing a bitchy comment and insulting me? Has it not occurred to you that this is an option? Really, you might consider it as an energy saving measure, and also so that you're not perceived as trying to intimidate me and discourage discussion.

by Anonymousreply 81December 17, 2020 5:54 PM

As someone who just had two comments quoted by the individual in question, I’m on his side. I like seeing whom you’re responding to, r81.

You don’t like it, for whatever reason, skip past. School marms aren’t necessary on DL.

by Anonymousreply 82December 17, 2020 6:24 PM

Thanks, R82. The troll in question obviously has, ummm, issues....

by Anonymousreply 83December 17, 2020 6:34 PM

I don't care about R74's format of choice, but his officiousness is always off-putting. The format just makes it clear without a doubt that we are once again dealing with the same pontificating author.

But don't feel pressure to be congenial if you can't or don't want to be.

by Anonymousreply 84December 17, 2020 6:46 PM

Sorry if you don't like my tone, R84. But how odd that you of all people would criticize me for not being "congenial."

P.S. Another point I wanted to make about the ending of LITTLE SHOP is that I imagine the filmmakers didn't think the direct-address-to-the-audience song "Don't Feed the Plants" would work in a movie, so they had to come up with some other ending. Their original idea was to have Audrey (and Seymour, I think?) die as in the show, and then have the plants grow to massive size and begin destroying the world. But it was felt that this ending was TOO dark, so they came up with the alternate ending, which I think works just fine. And as for the "monster still lives" ending being "cliche," I would say that, among other things, LITTLE SHOP is a sort of a genre spoof musical, so having that cliche as the ending is perfectly fine and appropriate.

by Anonymousreply 85December 17, 2020 6:58 PM

Anything that encourages intelligent discussion is welcome here as far as I'm concerned.

I hate when posters chastise another poster with "Google it! If asking a question encourages an exchange of ideas, I'm all for it.

by Anonymousreply 86December 17, 2020 7:02 PM

[quote]Just a heads up...one of Dick Cavett's guests tomorrow evening is Kathryn Kuhlman.

Was she ever in "Follies?"

by Anonymousreply 87December 17, 2020 7:20 PM

I want to be in a throuple with R53 and R54.

by Anonymousreply 88December 17, 2020 7:22 PM

'quote]But the BIGGEST change in the film of West Side Story was including the Shark boys in the number America. It cinched Oscars for Rita Moreno and especially George Chakiris (who doesn't do much more in the film) It's really inconceivable that geniuses Robbins, Bernstein, Laurents and Sondheim didn't originally think of that.

Groups licensing the rights to produce "West Side Story" are expressly enjoined from adding the Shark men to the number, a provision that I suspect is often ignored by schools and community theater groups that want the number to look the way it does in the movie.

by Anonymousreply 89December 17, 2020 7:24 PM

And the screen version of Rent aged the characters by 20 yrs.

by Anonymousreply 90December 17, 2020 7:41 PM

In some book (maybe the Zadan Sondheim book?) I remember an interview with Laurents where he discussed the placement of Cool and Krupke in the stage version vs. the movie, and he said that in the stage version he was following the example of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. I'll leave it to any Shakespearean scholars here to decide if that's the case.

by Anonymousreply 91December 17, 2020 7:48 PM

Part 1 of the original ending for the Little Shop movie. If you watch it to the end, Part 2 should follow directly.

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by Anonymousreply 92December 17, 2020 8:06 PM

[quote] Groups licensing the rights to produce "West Side Story" are expressly enjoined from adding the Shark men to the number, a provision that I suspect is often ignored by schools and community theater groups that want the number to look the way it does in the movie.

As you are probably aware, the Broadway revival of "West Side Story" that opened in February 2020 (and was, of course, shut down on March 12, 2020) features both the male and female Sharks in "America."

by Anonymousreply 93December 17, 2020 8:08 PM

[quote]Groups licensing the rights to produce "West Side Story" are expressly enjoined from adding the Shark men to the number, a provision that I suspect is often ignored by schools and community theater groups that want the number to look the way it does in the movie.

One big logistical problem with adding the men to stage productions of the show is that the key of "America" is too low for male singers. This wasn't a problem in the movie because George Chakiris and the other men obviously did the pre-recording with microphones right in front of their faces, but you can't have men singing that low on stage and expect them to project, even with heavy stage amplification.

[quote]In some book (maybe the Zadan Sondheim book?) I remember an interview with Laurents where he discussed the placement of Cool and Krupke in the stage version vs. the movie, and he said that in the stage version he was following the example of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. I'll leave it to any Shakespearean scholars here to decide if that's the case.

Yeah, yeah, I've read those comments from Laurents. He was talking about how Shakespeare sometimes used comic relief after very heavy dramatic scenes, even murder scenes, in R&J and other plays. I think WEST SIDE STORY is a completely different situation, not to mention a totally different style, but leave it to Laurents to make a pretentious justification like that.

Anyway, when Laurents directed that horrendous Broadway revisal of WSS in 2009, he made a decision even worse than keeping "Krupke" in its original slot after the murders. He also decided to remove all humor from the number (even though he had previouslyl attempted to justify humor at that point) because he had since decided that the song should NOT be funny, because the Jets are "killers." No, you fool -- the whole point of the show you yourself wrote is that these kids are NOT inherently killers, that they behave the way they do because of horrendous societal and economic circumstances.

by Anonymousreply 94December 17, 2020 8:15 PM

Will that incredibly polarizing (and expensive) revival of WSS re-open, do we think?

I know people who actually adored it, despite all the negative word-of-mouth.

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by Anonymousreply 95December 17, 2020 8:17 PM

What do people think of PAJAMA GAME? I've never seen a stage production.

I just saw the movie w/Doris Day and John Raitt. While it's nice to see a movie that preserved the story and most of the score (and much of the Bway cast, apparently)... I was underwhelmed. Doris and Raitt don't have a lot of chemistry. Raitt is conventionally attractive but weirdly sexless and dull. It all seems a little frantic, with no real emotional payoff.

Of course, I may just dislike the show. (I love DAMN YANKEES, by comparison.)

by Anonymousreply 96December 17, 2020 8:22 PM

I love Pajama Game, but the movie is more of an embalming than a retelling of that story

by Anonymousreply 97December 17, 2020 8:24 PM

Thanks r92.

I didn't find that ending particularly dark, just appropriate to the material.

The original off-broadway version was the best thing I saw when I lived in NYC in the 80s.

by Anonymousreply 98December 17, 2020 8:29 PM

I was also confused why so many of the employees at a midwestern pajama factory (Iowa?) tawked "Noo Yawk." It was more GUYS AND DOLLS than Iowa should sound.

I did enjoy Doris' soft-butch look, at least.

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by Anonymousreply 99December 17, 2020 8:29 PM

That's one hard soft-butch.

by Anonymousreply 100December 17, 2020 8:30 PM

God, could that original ending of LSOH be any fucking longer? I like the idea behind it, but I got bored midway through. I think if they would have cut it in half, it would have played better and they could have kept it. But I understand the reasoning for changing it.

I also wonder if they'd kept it would Ellen Greene have had a stronger possibility for a Best Actress nomination. 1986 was a dire year for lead females. They had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for five nominees, and even the winner was weak. I would have nominated Ellen over Jane Fonda, Sigourney, Sissy and especially Marlee Matlin. Of those five, I think only Kathleen Turner deserved the nomination.

by Anonymousreply 101December 17, 2020 8:41 PM

Colored lights--the TV commercial.

The story of a roller rink... they call home!

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by Anonymousreply 102December 17, 2020 8:49 PM

I'm an old-fashioned Broadway traditionalist but I LOVED von Hove's WSS (and I've never been a fan of his work). But then, I'd always found WSS never came up to the production I had in my head of the show.

The von Hove production really does take a knife to the show, so much is rethought, but if you can go into it with an open mind, (and I'm not sure I did) you'll find it the most emotionally affecting production of the show you've ever seen, I think. The rare production where you believe those boys are gang members and could kill each other. And yet also the rare production where you believe Tony and Maria fall in love at first sight. Tears were streaming down my face at the end, a first time for me with WSS.

I really hope it returns after Covid. I'd certainly see it again.

by Anonymousreply 103December 17, 2020 9:06 PM

[quote]I love Pajama Game, but the movie is more of an embalming than a retelling of that story

I disagree, I think that movie is fun and has lots of spirit. DAMN YANKEES was the movie they botched, which is strange, because it's the same creative team as PJ GAME.

[quote]Will that incredibly polarizing (and expensive) revival of WSS re-open, do we think? I know people who actually adored it, despite all the negative word-of-mouth.

I don't mean this to sound condescending, but I think anyone who "adored" that ridiculous production either never saw WEST SIDE STORY before or really does not understand or love the show as originally conceived.

by Anonymousreply 104December 17, 2020 9:07 PM

I’m bored with traditional productions. If they can’t write new musicals, at least show us them in a different light.

by Anonymousreply 105December 17, 2020 9:14 PM

Agree with R105, but a first-class revival of a classic musical is also a treat. For example, the recent Lincoln Center revivals of The King and I and My Fair Lady, as well as the Bette Midler Hello, Dolly! were not particularly innovative, but they were wonderful.

by Anonymousreply 106December 17, 2020 9:17 PM

The recent WSS revival was only adored by SJWs.

by Anonymousreply 107December 17, 2020 9:18 PM

[quote]Tears were streaming down my face at the end, a first time for me with WSS.

I have yet to see a production of WWS that did NOT have that effect on me.

by Anonymousreply 108December 17, 2020 9:19 PM

[quote]The von Hove production really does take a knife to the show, so much is rethought.

Yes, that's an understatement.

[quote]The rare production where you believe those boys are gang members and could kill each other.

In my opinion, that's exactly the opposite of how you're supposed to feel about the gang members. You're supposed to understand that they're just kids who could just as easily love as hate each other if their socio-economic situation wasn't so grim, and if they weren't set up to hate each other for various reasons. This is one of the worst examples of von Hove's misreading of the show. And why should any of us have an "open mind" to a production that's so often at odds with what the original creators intended?

[quote]And yet also the rare production where you believe Tony and Maria fall in love at first sight.

Of course, I don't know what previous productions you've seen, but I've seen several in which the love-at-first-sight thing was completely credible, and few if any in which it wasn't.

[quote]I certainly hope it returns after Covid. I'd certainly see it again.

In contrast, the friend with whom I saw the show later said that its closing was one of the few good things to come out of the tragedy of the pandemic :-)

by Anonymousreply 109December 17, 2020 9:22 PM

[quote] I don't mean this to sound condescending

And yet.

by Anonymousreply 110December 17, 2020 9:23 PM

In the film remake of WSS “I Feel Pretty” is performed after the rumble. I forgot where I read this.

by Anonymousreply 111December 17, 2020 9:37 PM

Every time I look at the title of this thread in the list on the right, I think it's going to say- Changing my subject to Joan.

by Anonymousreply 112December 17, 2020 9:48 PM

R110, thanks for your brilliant contribution to this discussion.

R111, interesting. I would be surprised if that's true, but maybe Kushner and Spielberg saw this as a way to depart a bit from the previous film. I guess we'll see eventually.

by Anonymousreply 113December 17, 2020 9:48 PM

I would be surprised if WSS didn't come back post-Covid. Even with all the changes and divisive response to it, it's a big marquee name show that tourists will see, and it's not reliant on stars, so any re-casting would be easy to do and not have much of an effect on sales.

by Anonymousreply 114December 17, 2020 9:49 PM

The Roundabout revival of PJ Game was delightful from start to finish. I’ve never liked Kelli O’Hara more.

by Anonymousreply 115December 17, 2020 9:52 PM

To be fair, it's hard to like Kelli O'Hara at all.

by Anonymousreply 116December 17, 2020 9:53 PM

Marin Mazzie should have played babe in that PJ revival.

by Anonymousreply 117December 17, 2020 9:54 PM

[quote] The recent WSS revival was only adored by SJWs.

It was the new Head Over Heels

by Anonymousreply 118December 17, 2020 9:58 PM

Kelli was miscast in that PJ GAME revival, and so her performance was adequate at best. But, apparently, Mr. Connick liked her A LOT.

by Anonymousreply 119December 17, 2020 9:59 PM

Ughh. Harry Connick Jr.

Remember when he was a thing?

by Anonymousreply 120December 17, 2020 10:03 PM

Under Beverly Sills, NYCO did some Broadway musicals. In 1989, they did PAJAMA GAME. Judy Kaye played Babe, Richard Muenz played Sid and DL's own Lenora Nemetz played Gladys. It was wonderful to see her doing Steam Heat. Her work with Fosse on CHICAGO stood her in good stead. She reeeeeeeally had the Fosse style. Much more than Ann Reinking or Chita Rivera. If you watch the Gwen and Chita doing the Hot Honey Rag, they are not in perfect unison. Chita is a genius, but at every turn, Gwen shows you the Fosse style. He developed it with her. So, naturally, Chita was one step removed. Even so, some of the discrepancies are surprising. But Lenora Nemetz really nailed how his movement flowed. She had it in CHICAGO and she still had it in PAJAMA GAME.

The film is very stage bound. They changed very little for the movies. There are some advantages to that, though. Steam Heat is one of them. And I'll Never Be Jealous Again. Thank God this was preserved, just as it is.

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by Anonymousreply 121December 17, 2020 10:11 PM

Judy Kaye was never any kind of "babe" a day in her life.

by Anonymousreply 122December 17, 2020 10:14 PM

Oh, Patti Lu! I saw Judy Kaye when she covered your vacation in SWEENEY TODD.

Not only did I see her, I heard her. Every note. Every word. Every syllable.

by Anonymousreply 123December 17, 2020 10:17 PM

[quote]The film is very stage bound. They changed very little for the movies.

I'm not always sure what people mean when they say this about film adaptations of Broadway musicals. Can you give some examples of how you would have made the PAJAMA GAME movie less "stage bound?" I don't think it's stage bound at all in terms of the camera movements or the way the numbers are plotted.

by Anonymousreply 124December 17, 2020 10:32 PM

Judy and Lenora.

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by Anonymousreply 125December 17, 2020 10:33 PM

Cool, R125. Particularly "Steam Heat."

Amazing what turns up on YouTube.

by Anonymousreply 126December 17, 2020 10:40 PM

Oh, thank you for that, R125!!!

by Anonymousreply 127December 17, 2020 10:43 PM

Carol Haney made quite a splash in "Pajama Game", but when Shirley MacLaine subbed for her, and did the Hitchcock movie they were scouting Carol for, why didn't Carol seem to get another Broadway follow-up role? It seemed like she did the "Pajama Game" film and then moved into choreography.

by Anonymousreply 128December 17, 2020 10:51 PM

R58: even that one little demo demonstrates more musical inventiveness and sophistication than anything Andrew Lloyd Webber wrote for his version.

by Anonymousreply 129December 17, 2020 10:55 PM

Reta taught Doris everything she knew, r99...

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by Anonymousreply 130December 17, 2020 11:08 PM

Patti in Mahagonny...

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by Anonymousreply 131December 18, 2020 12:04 AM

Irra Petina?

Well then, I demand the next thread be in honor of Umm Kulthum!

by Anonymousreply 132December 18, 2020 12:06 AM

What about Carmen Mathews...or Jane Connell?

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by Anonymousreply 133December 18, 2020 12:19 AM

That poster of Belle’s Scarlett Letter misspells Letch Feeley’s name!

by Anonymousreply 134December 18, 2020 12:35 AM

[quote]Patti in Mahagonny...

I've seen Mahogony and Patti LuPone is nowhere in that movie. Next you'll be telling me Patti was in The Wiz.

by Anonymousreply 135December 18, 2020 1:09 AM

r134 Letch himself noted that error at R54.

And YOU misspelled "Scarlet."

by Anonymousreply 136December 18, 2020 1:35 AM

What was the ending of the ORIGINAL (non-musical) "Little Shop of Horrors?"

by Anonymousreply 137December 18, 2020 1:35 AM

[quote] Fink and Stoolie attend a sunset celebration at the shop during which Seymour is to be presented with the trophy and Audrey Jr.'s buds are expected to open. As the attendees watch, four buds open; inside each flower is the face of one of the plant's victims. Fink and Stoolie realize that Seymour is the murderer; he flees from the shop with the officers in pursuit. He manages to lose them and make his way back to the now-empty shop. Grabbing a kitchen knife, Seymour climbs into Audrey Jr.'s maw saying, "I'll feed you like you've never been fed before!" Later that evening, it is discovered that Audrey Jr. has begun to wither and die. One final bud opens to reveal Seymour's face. He pitifully moans, "I didn't mean it" and the flower droops, apparently ending Audrey Jr.'s life.

by Anonymousreply 138December 18, 2020 1:40 AM

Carol Haney was a terrific dancer, but based on her appearance in the movie of PAJAMA GAME, she had a face for radio. That may have limited her options.

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by Anonymousreply 139December 18, 2020 3:28 AM

Also, once Shirley MacLaine got to Hollywood with her Carol Haney hairdo, there was no room for Carol Haney.

by Anonymousreply 140December 18, 2020 3:32 AM

Was Carol/Shirley a Tonya Harding-style takeout?

by Anonymousreply 141December 18, 2020 3:36 AM

Yup. Bitch stole my hairdo, too.

by Anonymousreply 142December 18, 2020 3:36 AM

[quote]Was Carol/Shirley a Tonya Harding-style takeout?

I don't think so. Shirley admits that in a couple of performances, she dropped her hat in the Steam Heat number. If it was a takeout, she would have been perfect at catching that hat.

by Anonymousreply 143December 18, 2020 4:31 AM

[quote]R59, I believe America was originally conceived for the men and women to sing, but Robbins made it an all female number.

Yes, I have read that as well. And apparently the reason why the men were cut from the number was that, at the time, Robbins couldn't find men who were or looked convincingly Latino and could also handle the difficult choreography -- which, by the way, I believe was by Peter Gennaro for that number.

by Anonymousreply 144December 18, 2020 5:19 AM

Gennaro absolutely choreographed America, at Robbins’ behest.

by Anonymousreply 145December 18, 2020 5:37 AM

I think it was that when Shirley dropped that hat in "Steam Heat" and said "Shit!" that she caused a sensation; folks didn't curse on Broadway (at least in the script or on-stage) back then.

by Anonymousreply 146December 18, 2020 5:46 AM

How fucking unprofessional.

by Anonymousreply 147December 18, 2020 5:48 AM

Was Reta Shaw a girl-lover?

by Anonymousreply 148December 18, 2020 9:59 AM

From Wikipedia: "Haney appeared in a few shows after The Pajama Game, but developed paralyzing stage fright."

That's why she decided to mostly give up performing and concentrate on choreographing. She did do William Inge's A Loss of Roses with Warren Beatty, but when it was turned into the movie The Stripper, Joanne Woodward replaced Haney.

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by Anonymousreply 149December 18, 2020 10:08 AM

Is that Steam Heat supposed to be Lenora Nemetz at her Fosse best? Because it's very bland. They're doing Fosse moves but without any Fosse style.

by Anonymousreply 150December 18, 2020 10:10 AM

Don't forget, Carol Haney is featured dancing with Fosse in "From This Moment On" in MGM's Kiss Me Kate. She looks sensationally sexy in it though, to be honest, there are no real closeups on her face.

The film premiered in 1953 and must have been shot just before Pajama Game opened on Broadway the same year. I believe Haney had done quite a bit of dance coaching in Hollywood in the early 1950s so she might have been somewhat known by execs there.

by Anonymousreply 151December 18, 2020 1:39 PM

Interesting that Shirley MacLaine didn't make any musical films at the beginning of her Hollywood career even though she was discovered singing and dancing in a Broadway musical.

by Anonymousreply 152December 18, 2020 1:42 PM

Joanne Woodward Plays A Stripper In The Stripper

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by Anonymousreply 153December 18, 2020 2:19 PM

Carol Haney was Gene Kelly's assistant before she did "Pajama Game" on Broadway. Gwen Verdon was Jack Cole's assistant. When Haney was dubbing in Gene Kelly's taps and footwork sounds for "Singin' in the Rain", she enlisted Verdon to help her, apparently putting their feet in buckets of water to record the sounds for the soundtrack, which they thought was very funny to do.

by Anonymousreply 154December 18, 2020 2:42 PM

R109, if you are not supposed to believe this kids are capable of killing each other, is it some meta-theatrical moment when they do?

In most productions of most plays, you are supposed to believe that the characters are capable of doing the things that that they do.

by Anonymousreply 155December 18, 2020 2:59 PM

Fun anecdote r154. Really cool tidbit.

by Anonymousreply 156December 18, 2020 3:15 PM

[R59], I believe America was originally conceived for the men and women to sing, but Robbins made it an all female number.

But how would the original lyrics work with the boys? The film version is better-written and works much better.

by Anonymousreply 157December 18, 2020 6:03 PM

In the film remake it begins with the girls and ends up on the streets like a Puerto Rican Day celebration.

by Anonymousreply 158December 18, 2020 6:36 PM

Will it also be cut in syndication?

by Anonymousreply 159December 18, 2020 6:59 PM

How many prostitutes/fallen women did Patti LuPone play?

The Cradle Will Rock

Evita

Oliver

Les Miserables

by Anonymousreply 160December 18, 2020 7:19 PM

r160 On TV, the customer of the male whore played by DL fave David Corenswet.

by Anonymousreply 161December 18, 2020 7:22 PM

Leokadja Begbick wasn't Little Mary Sunshine, r160.

by Anonymousreply 162December 18, 2020 7:28 PM

[quote]If you are not supposed to believe this kids are capable of killing each other, is it some meta-theatrical moment when they do?

R155, I didn't mean and did not write that we are "not supposed to believe the kids are capable of killing each other," I meant that we are not supposed to believe they are killers at heart. We are supposed to understand that they are basically good human beings who have come to have a great deal of anger and hatred in their hearts due to social circumstances and peer pressure. I have to say, the incredibly low level of reading comprehension on the part of some DL posters is continually surprising, and I think it's an annoying waste of time when people argue a point that no one has made.

[quote]I believe America was originally conceived for the men and women to sing, but Robbins made it an all female number.

[quote]But how would the original lyrics work with the boys? The film version is better-written and works much better.

The lyrics for the original stage version of the number, when the Shark men were going to be in it, were different than what ended up in the show and on the original cast album. I believe all or some of the men's lyrics that you here in the movie were from the original stage version of the number.

by Anonymousreply 163December 18, 2020 7:47 PM

Wasn't the character she played in Life Goes on an ex-whore? How else to explain the birth of her mongoloid first child?

by Anonymousreply 164December 18, 2020 8:08 PM

[quote]Wasn't the character she played in Life Goes on an ex-whore?

Only to a paycheck, kids. At least the retarded kid and the geeky daughter were sweet. That dude playing my husband was one no-talent POS, though.

Life goes on... and on and on. That fuckin' show ran for 4 seasons.

by Anonymousreply 165December 18, 2020 8:14 PM

Where the fuck did David Corenswet materialize from? Was he fucking Murphy?

by Anonymousreply 166December 18, 2020 8:25 PM

I'm the old Broadway traditionalist who loved the von Hove production. And as I said it was the first time I believed those kids were capable of killing each other.

Don't know about you, r163, but NO, I didn't believe Richard Beymer and George Chakiris and Russ Tamblyn were teenagers capable of being pushed to murder each other. And I didn't believe Kurt Peterson was capable in the 1968 State Theater revival or Ken Marshall and Stephen Bogardus in the 1980 revival and certainly not Matt Cavenaugh and Cody Green in the woeful 2009 revival or Paul Alexander Nolan in the Stratford, Ontario revival. And those are just some of the more famous revivals I've seen of WSS.

But I totally believed Isaac Powell and the young men of this recent revival were actual teenaged gang members, street kids growing up and surviving in the back alleys of NY and YES, capable of killing each other. A lot of that was the absence of balletic choreography. Did I miss the classic Robbins choreography? Yes, but I've seen it; and the new muscular hyper-macho movement of whoever ultimately choreographed this one was riveting, scary and sexy. It also helped that the kids were dressed in real street fashion, not color-coded hoodies, blue jeans and high tops.

I get it, this may not be a WSS for everyone. But for those like myself who are looking for a truly innovative interpretation and willing to open their eyes and ears, it's very worthy. And please note, I don't call this production a revival. This one is really a re-interpretation.

by Anonymousreply 167December 18, 2020 8:31 PM

[quote] Was Reta Shaw a girl-lover? —Hope Emerson

She never fucked me.

by Anonymousreply 168December 18, 2020 8:31 PM

The thing that really put a damper on Carol Haney's post-PAJAMA GAME-film career was her death seven years later. But in between those two events she choreographed four Broadway shows.

by Anonymousreply 169December 18, 2020 8:49 PM

'but NO, I didn't believe Richard Beymer and George Chakiris and Russ Tamblyn were teenagers capable of being pushed to murder each other. '

You and Pauline Kael are the only two out of the many many millions who have seen the film not associated with the Broadway production who evidently feel that way. That's not something to be proud of.

Let's not forget Ernest Lehman who did so much to improve the structure of not only WSS but also Sound of Music so that when you see them on stage they seem off kilter. I wish he had done a better job with Dolly where he turns a silly musical even sillier though much of his dialogue is very funny. It didn't help that Kelly turns the three juveniles into imbeciles.

by Anonymousreply 170December 18, 2020 9:01 PM

Pajama Game really needed a better co-star for Day. She needed to be set up against another star like Keel or MacRae. Though not of her magnitude at this point in time they still had a screen presence of which Raitt has so very little. Also Maclaine would have made a much funnier and prettier Gladys on film than Haney. Warner was clearly doing a budget version of the show blowing his wad on Day. Much like 1776 which really needed some star power to punch up that cast of tired Broadway hams. He also needed a better film director who didn't make being trapped in the chamber of the continental congress for two and a half hours more of an ordeal for movie audiences than it was even for the congressmen. I grew up loving the obc of 1776 and then when I saw the film I felt like I was watching cement harden.

by Anonymousreply 171December 18, 2020 9:16 PM

[quote]Carol Haney was Gene Kelly's assistant before she did "Pajama Game" on Broadway. Gwen Verdon was Jack Cole's assistant

Haney was Jack Cole's assistant first, from 1946-48. When Haney moved on to work as Kelly's assistant in LA, Verdon replaced her with Cole.

by Anonymousreply 172December 18, 2020 9:19 PM

1776 was the very first Broadway show I ever saw. I was hooked on the format for life.

by Anonymousreply 173December 18, 2020 9:19 PM

[quote]blowing his wad on Day

So many men did.

by Anonymousreply 174December 18, 2020 9:20 PM

[quote]blowing his wad on Day

Pics please.

by Anonymousreply 175December 18, 2020 9:31 PM

OMG! Miss Anne Baxter in APPLAUSE!

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by Anonymousreply 176December 18, 2020 9:36 PM

More Anne in Applause

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by Anonymousreply 177December 18, 2020 9:47 PM

[quote] The thing that really put a damper on Carol Haney's post-PAJAMA GAME-film career was her death seven years later. But in between those two events she choreographed four Broadway shows.

I wonder what she was reincarnated as.

by Anonymousreply 178December 18, 2020 10:08 PM

Wow. Anne Baxter's "Welcome to the Theatre" is better than Bacall's, better sung. But her "But Alive" is seriously underpowered and lacking the undeniable star quality that Bacall brought to it.

by Anonymousreply 179December 18, 2020 10:10 PM

[quote]The thing that really put a damper on Carol Haney's post-PAJAMA GAME-film career was her death seven years later.

Death'll do that to a career.

by Anonymousreply 180December 18, 2020 10:11 PM

[quote]Don't know about you, [R163], but NO, I didn't believe Richard Beymer and George Chakiris and Russ Tamblyn were teenagers capable of being pushed to murder each other. And I didn't believe Kurt Peterson was capable in the 1968 State Theater revival or Ken Marshall and Stephen Bogardus in the 1980 revival and certainly not Matt Cavenaugh and Cody Green in the woeful 2009 revival or Paul Alexander Nolan in the Stratford, Ontario revival. And those are just some of the more famous revivals I've seen of WSS. But I totally believed Isaac Powell and the young men of this recent revival were actual teenaged gang members, street kids growing up and surviving in the back alleys of NY and YES, capable of killing each other. A lot of that was the absence of balletic choreography. Did I miss the classic Robbins choreography? Yes, but I've seen it; and the new muscular hyper-macho movement of whoever ultimately choreographed this one was riveting, scary and sexy. It also helped that the kids were dressed in real street fashion, not color-coded hoodies, blue jeans and high tops.

Seems as though you have never really bought into the form of stylization -- street thugs performing balletic choreography, etc. -- that has existed in WEST SIDE STORY for more than 60 years, until this production (of something that was not really WEST SIDE STORY). You didn't mention all the tattoos in the van Hove debacle, which is surprising, as I'm guessing that superficial if anachronistic touch also helped you believe them as "actual gang members." I'm also surprised that you say you "missed" the Robbins choreography, because it doesn't sound like you missed it at all.

by Anonymousreply 181December 18, 2020 10:20 PM

R179. Did you listen to the scene after the song? Audience loved her.

by Anonymousreply 182December 18, 2020 10:30 PM

[quote]Don't know about you, [[R163]], but NO, I didn't believe Richard Beymer and George Chakiris and Russ Tamblyn were teenagers capable of being pushed to murder each other... But I totally believed Isaac Powell and the young men of this recent revival were actual teenaged gang members, street kids growing up and surviving in the back alleys of NY and YES, capable of killing each other. A lot of that was the absence of balletic choreography.

I honestly thought you were going to say it was because the cast in the recent revival was made up mainly of blacks and Latinos.

by Anonymousreply 183December 18, 2020 10:34 PM

We...still...have...

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by Anonymousreply 184December 18, 2020 10:37 PM

[quote]Pajama Game really needed a better co-star for Day. She needed to be set up against another star like Keel or MacRae. Though not of her magnitude at this point in time they still had a screen presence of which Raitt has so very little. Also Maclaine would have made a much funnier and prettier Gladys on film than Haney. Warner was clearly doing a budget version of the show blowing his wad on Day. Much like 1776 which really needed some star power to punch up that cast of tired Broadway hams. He also needed a better film director who didn't make being trapped in the chamber of the continental congress for two and a half hours more of an ordeal for movie audiences than it was even for the congressmen. I grew up loving the obc of 1776 and then when I saw the film I felt like I was watching cement harden.

I was pretty much with you for the first half of your post, about PAJAMA GAME, but you lost me when you started expressing your strange opinions on the movie of 1776. You are literally the only person I've ever heard object to the casting of the film with veterans of the stage show other than Blythe Danner, who is perfection as Martha Jefferson, and who at that time was also known primarily as a stage performer. And the only things wrong with the direction of the movie, as far as I'm concerned, is that unfortunately Peter Hunt wasn't open to any cuts and edits to the script (or the score, but that didn't need any cuts), which left it up to Jack Warner to do it after the fact.

by Anonymousreply 185December 18, 2020 10:42 PM

Celeste Holm, by many accounts, was a cunt. I wonder if she was pissed not to get to play Applause, either on Broadway, touring or regionally.

by Anonymousreply 186December 18, 2020 11:29 PM

R186. Holm was too old by the time the musical came along, though she seems to have married Duane (the Lee Roy Reams gay hairdresser) in her dotage, so it might have worked.

by Anonymousreply 187December 18, 2020 11:33 PM

Bette Davis watched the show from the wings a few times. How fucking annoying must that have been?

by Anonymousreply 188December 19, 2020 12:04 AM

Oh please, Celeste got to do King & I and MAME. I'm sure she had zero interest in APPLAUSE.

by Anonymousreply 189December 19, 2020 12:08 AM

Whenever I see 'Applause' written out, I always think 'Applesauce.'

by Anonymousreply 190December 19, 2020 12:15 AM

[quote]I honestly thought you were going to say it was because the cast in the recent revival was made up mainly of blacks and Latinos.

Yikes, good point. Maybe that IS at least part of the reason why that poster thought the actors in the van Hove production were more believable as "actual teenaged gang members...capable of killing each other," and he doesn't even realize it.

by Anonymousreply 191December 19, 2020 12:16 AM

Unconscious racism? On a DL Theatre Gossip thread?

Gasp!

by Anonymousreply 192December 19, 2020 12:22 AM

It is weird to hear someone refer to De Keersmaeker as "whoever."

She is certainly as least as well known as Robbins was in the 60s.

But it shows that musical theater folk do not know much about music, dance, or theater outside of musical theater.

Her critical renown and the many many imitations of her vocabulary for over three decades seems not to have penetrated the radar of musical theater aficionados.

by Anonymousreply 193December 19, 2020 12:29 AM

[quote]Her critical renown and the many many imitations of her vocabulary for over three decades seems not to have penetrated the radar of musical theater aficionados.

I think contemporary musical theatre is a couple of decades behind (at least) regarding what's going on in dance. The last time I was impressed by new choreography was Justin Peck's work in the last CAROUSEL revival. I'm not sure why/when dance stopped mattering in musicals, but it's almost an afterthought these days. It's a shame.

by Anonymousreply 194December 19, 2020 12:59 AM

Relax, r193, and read. There were reports of other choreographer(s) being brought in to help make it all work. That is what r167 is referring to when they say “ultimately”

You bitches are botches

by Anonymousreply 195December 19, 2020 1:00 AM

Bitches

by Anonymousreply 196December 19, 2020 1:02 AM

I heard the same roomer, R195, but it ultimately turned out not to be true.

by Anonymousreply 197December 19, 2020 1:10 AM

^^rumor

by Anonymousreply 198December 19, 2020 1:10 AM

“The former Miami City Ballet principal Patricia Lucia Delgado, who is also an associate producer, and the Tony-winning choreographer Sergio Trujillo are the production’s dance consultants.“

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by Anonymousreply 199December 19, 2020 1:25 AM

R199, someone who was in the production told me that this was not like a Peter Gennaro situation (who choreographed two entire numbers for Robbins), but more of assistance in smoothing out some of the more difficult choreography so the dancers could execute it better.

by Anonymousreply 200December 19, 2020 1:41 AM

R193 still overreacted

by Anonymousreply 201December 19, 2020 1:44 AM

Not really a reaction at all R201. But I meet a lot of people who work in straight theater/film and others who work in musicals. The people in regular theater/film are a lot more knowledgeable about music, dance, etc than the musical theater people.

I always think its weird since musical make use of those other disciplines.

by Anonymousreply 202December 19, 2020 1:49 AM

Botches works too. But not butches.

by Anonymousreply 203December 19, 2020 1:50 AM

The Peter Gennaro Dancers!

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by Anonymousreply 204December 19, 2020 1:51 AM

Celeste was always a Karen, never a Margo.

by Anonymousreply 205December 19, 2020 1:59 AM

[quote]Celeste was always a Karen, never a Margo.

Considering her legendary cuntiness, she was probably the ORIGINAL "Karen."

by Anonymousreply 206December 19, 2020 2:14 AM

Celeste Holm - cunting America from 1917-2012

by Anonymousreply 207December 19, 2020 2:24 AM

1776 opened at Radio City as the Christmas movie for that year and I wanted to love it because I loved the score and what better place to see it? I didn't. I found it a huge bore. I also remember sitting in the packed orchestra which is 3,000 people and the audience was very restless which didn't help. That summer when the film Butterflies are Free played at the Hall there was a preview for the musical and it included part of Cool Cool Considerate Men. Imagine sitting through the movie and wondering what the hell happened to that number. I had no idea that somewhere between that summer and the Nov opening of the film Nixon had gotten hold of Jack Warner and told him he wanted the number cut.

I agree about Danner. She's got a wonderful entrance and you can imagine how magical it was on the Music Hall's wide screen. It woke me up. Suddenly it turned into a movie. Yes small edits would have helped along with tighter direction but sometimes an entire Broadway cast is not the best thing for a movie. It needed a few more charismatic screen performances among the men. But what can I say. It's one of those beloved films which I don't love. There are people who don't like the film of My Fair Lady but depending on what day it is or if I'm watching the dazzling 50th anniversary bluray it's my favorite film.

by Anonymousreply 208December 19, 2020 2:38 AM

I usually watch My Fair Lady up until they get back from the ball. They've accomplished their task, but the movie drags on for another hour. The "Get Me to the Church on Time" is unbearable, because it goes on for five minutes and all they do is repeat the same lyrics over and over again. Also, that scene brings the movie to a halt, and it was already dragging by that point.

by Anonymousreply 209December 19, 2020 2:49 AM

I don't want to start a Shirley MacLaine thread but since we were talking about her upthread, I'll just say I'm finally watching The Apartment on TCM in its entirety and Shirley is so damn good in it. So fresh and naturally adorable and believable as the working class elevator operator.

I think it was all downhill after that, she really didn't have the range to play anything but a version of that ordinary girl, which she did, more or less, in all her 1950s films. Her talents did not age well but she was wonderful in the 1950s.

by Anonymousreply 210December 19, 2020 3:06 AM

What a silly comment. Shirl has more than one good movie role.

by Anonymousreply 211December 19, 2020 3:12 AM

Incidentally, when did they stop having elevator operators? I've always found it funny that they hired people to push the floor buttons for other people.

by Anonymousreply 212December 19, 2020 3:16 AM

Shirl is absolutely adorable, as is Anthony Perkins opposite her, in the fine Shirley Booth-led film of "The Matchmaker".

by Anonymousreply 213December 19, 2020 3:28 AM

Yes, she's wonderful in The Matchmaker, Ask Any Girl, Some Came Running, The Trouble With Harry. It's her post-The Apartment films where she became an annoying ham.

by Anonymousreply 214December 19, 2020 3:41 AM

It's still hard for me to believe that Shirley MacLaine and Warren Beatty are brother and sister, never mind that they grew up together. The only other actor siblings I feel that way about are River and Joaquin Phoenix.

by Anonymousreply 215December 19, 2020 3:53 AM

[quote]I usually watch My Fair Lady up until they get back from the ball. They've accomplished their task, but the movie drags on for another hour. The "Get Me to the Church on Time" is unbearable, because it goes on for five minutes and all they do is repeat the same lyrics over and over again. Also, that scene brings the movie to a halt, and it was already dragging by that point.

I agree 100 percent about "Get Me To The Church on Time." In the original production, it was apparently a show-stopping dance number for the ensemble, but in the movie, for some idiotic reason, there is NO actual dancing in it, other than about half a minute of soft-shoe by Stanley Holloway. One of the worst of several major flaws of that movie, which does have many wonderful things about it as well.

by Anonymousreply 216December 19, 2020 5:14 AM

[quote]One of the worst of several major flaws of that movie, which does have many wonderful things about it as well.

I can't think of a single wonderful thing in that turd of a movie;

by Anonymousreply 217December 19, 2020 9:46 AM

r212 There are still elevator operators out there in older buildings that haven't converted to automatic elevators.

by Anonymousreply 218December 19, 2020 1:23 PM

I want to see Carol Haney's choreography from BRAVO, GIOVANNI.

by Anonymousreply 219December 19, 2020 3:12 PM

Apparently, r219, it was...

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by Anonymousreply 220December 19, 2020 3:27 PM

Haney also did the dances for "Funny Girl" on Broadway, though it might have been a challenge dealing with Streisand, plus wasn't Jerome Robbins brought in as well? He was no walk in the park to deal with.

by Anonymousreply 221December 19, 2020 3:42 PM

If Haney didn't drink before Funny Girl, she certainly drank after.

by Anonymousreply 222December 19, 2020 4:29 PM

Did she choreograph Rat-Tat-Tat-Tat-Tat- Tat... Tat?

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by Anonymousreply 223December 19, 2020 4:33 PM

[quote]I can't think of a single wonderful thing in that turd of a movie

During the Overture and Opening Credits, the flowers are nice.

by Anonymousreply 224December 19, 2020 4:35 PM

Get Me To the Church on Time is turned from a dance to a pubcrawl. It is wonderfully staged and shot. A highlight of the film.

by Anonymousreply 225December 19, 2020 5:32 PM

Don't some of those very familiar American old character actors turn up in Get Me to the Church on Time? Isn't Barbara Pepper in it?

by Anonymousreply 226December 19, 2020 5:50 PM

Yes, Barbara Pepper is in it.

by Anonymousreply 227December 19, 2020 5:54 PM

[quote]I can't think of a single wonderful thing in that turd of a movie.

Oh, come on. The production and costume design, the musical scoring, several of the performances, and so on.

[quote]There are still elevator operators out there in older buildings that haven't converted to automatic elevators.

The question was why elevator operators were ever thought necessary in automatic elevators with push buttons. I guess they were hired as an indication of status in high-end apartment and office buildings, like those attendants in rest rooms at high-end restaurants and clubs.

[quote]Get Me To the Church on Time is turned from a dance to a pubcrawl. It is wonderfully staged and shot. A highlight of the film.

I totally disagree. The number as performed in the film might work if it were about half as long, but the way it is -- as someone else pointed out -- the number keeps going on and on as everyone keeps singing the same lyrics over and over and over again. And there's no progression to the number, because we just see Doolittle and his friends moving from one pub to another and doing pretty much he same thing in each one. I do like the way the ending is staged and shot, the "morning after" section. One of the biggest flaws of the MFL film is that it has very little actual dancing throughout, I think because that was the era when some Hollywood people had started to become afraid of musicals that seemed like real musicals, so they tried to make them more realistic but cutting out or cutting down on choral singing and dancing of all types.

by Anonymousreply 228December 19, 2020 7:29 PM

"My Fair Lady" doesn't have that much dancing in it, though I once saw a production in London where Anna Neagle was playing Higgin's mother, and they basically created something of a dance specialty for her during the Embassy Ball! This was in the midst of its run, but it wasn't a particularly good production.

by Anonymousreply 229December 19, 2020 7:33 PM

Yes, it would have been better if they had Onna White's twirling maids from Oliver!

by Anonymousreply 230December 19, 2020 7:34 PM

[Quote] The question was why elevator operators were ever thought necessary in automatic elevators with push buttons. I guess they were hired as an indication of status in high-end apartment and office buildings, like those attendants in rest rooms at high-end restaurants and clubs.

An aged relative of mine has broken every CD player I've got him. How has he broken them? I have no idea. Neither does he. Long story short: People who don't know how to treat mechanical objects manage to break them all the time. It only takes being excessively rough.

by Anonymousreply 231December 19, 2020 7:34 PM

I usually stop watching the film version of Fiddler on the Roof after the wedding scene. The plot just repeats itself after that. Although, yes, Do You Love Me is charming and Anatevka is moving and Fyedka is pretty.

by Anonymousreply 232December 19, 2020 7:37 PM

A short interview of Patti when everything was fine in Sunset.

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by Anonymousreply 233December 19, 2020 7:37 PM

Also from r233...

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by Anonymousreply 234December 19, 2020 8:02 PM

[quote]An aged relative of mine has broken every CD player I've got him. How has he broken them? I have no idea. Neither does he. Long story short: People who don't know how to treat mechanical objects manage to break them all the time. It only takes being excessively rough.

Thanks, but what does that have to do with the question of why people were employed to push buttons in automated elevators? Your aged relative sounds like a rather, umm, special case. Are you saying you think there are so many people who don't know how to push the correct button in an elevator for the floor they want that it was necessary to hire people to do so? I rather think, as I said, that it was a status symbol on the part of some companies and landlords.

[quote]I usually stop watching the film version of Fiddler on the Roof after the wedding scene. The plot just repeats itself after that.

Sorry, but that's an incredibly strange and inaccurate comment The plot of FIDDLER does not remotely "repeat itself" after the wedding scene. Do you stop watching THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK halfway through because you think the plot keeps repeating itself thereafter?

by Anonymousreply 235December 19, 2020 8:11 PM

[Quote] what does that have to do with the question of why people were employed to push buttons in automated elevators?

People can break simple mechanical objects quite easily. An operator knows how to treat the machinery.

by Anonymousreply 236December 19, 2020 8:13 PM

The only reason that "Get Me To The Church" exists is so that they could use the chorus in Act 2. Most of Act 2 is between Eliza and Higgins and they needed a big chorus number in Act 2. That's not necessary in a film, so they could have cut the number altogether because it really serves no purpose: doesn't advance the plot, doesn't tell us anything new about Doolittle. I'm sure the only reason they kept it in the movie was to ensure Stanley Holloway would play the role.

by Anonymousreply 237December 19, 2020 8:13 PM

It's a crowd pleaser. And one of the numbers famous beyond the show.

by Anonymousreply 238December 19, 2020 8:15 PM

I think the elevator operator was more about preserving a union job rather than any actual functionality. Once automatic elevators were installed, they tried to pass off the elevator operator as a de facto safety operator (in case of fire, the elevator operator calls the fire company and directs people where to go).

by Anonymousreply 239December 19, 2020 8:17 PM

It wasn't just about pushing buttons, r235, you ignorant slut. A lot of times the doors were tricky to open and close securely. Plus, the operator was in charge of getting the elevator level with the floor.

by Anonymousreply 240December 19, 2020 8:18 PM

[quote]It's a crowd pleaser. And one of the numbers famous beyond the show.

So was "Together, Wherever We Go" in Gypsy, but they didn't hesitate to cut that.

by Anonymousreply 241December 19, 2020 8:20 PM

[quote]Do you stop watching THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK halfway through because you think the plot keeps repeating itself thereafter?

No, I just yell out, "She's in the attic!"

by Anonymousreply 242December 19, 2020 8:21 PM

[Quote] So was "Together, Wherever We Go" in Gypsy, but they didn't hesitate to cut that.

Well, they cared enough to film it, didn't they?

by Anonymousreply 243December 19, 2020 8:28 PM

r242 - I yell out "Damn you Otto Frank for buying Anne that drum set!"

by Anonymousreply 244December 19, 2020 8:32 PM

Ya can't buck a nun!

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by Anonymousreply 245December 19, 2020 8:38 PM

Uhm, R240, have you seen The Appartment? It is about just pushing buttons.

In the transition to automatic elevators, there was indeed a transition period where operators were still employed. After a few years they were phased out.

by Anonymousreply 246December 19, 2020 8:40 PM

Oh, I agree with you about the transition period, r246.

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by Anonymousreply 247December 19, 2020 8:45 PM

Why wasn't "Promises, Promises" made into a movie. Or "Company"? Dean Jones was a screen star, after all.

by Anonymousreply 248December 19, 2020 8:51 PM

In the late sixties early seventies, no one really knew what to do with musicals on screen. The predominant model were the big roadshow pictures, like Star which were not making back their costs. The conventional wisdom was that film musicals did not work anymore.

Cabaret made bold choices, but not any that could be applied to any other show.

by Anonymousreply 249December 19, 2020 9:05 PM

And yet "Fiddler" was a success, no?

by Anonymousreply 250December 19, 2020 9:17 PM

I wish we'd gotten Julie and Dick's She Loves Me.

by Anonymousreply 251December 19, 2020 9:40 PM

Julie and Dick who?

by Anonymousreply 252December 19, 2020 9:45 PM

Andrews and Van Dyke.

by Anonymousreply 253December 19, 2020 9:46 PM

r252...

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by Anonymousreply 254December 19, 2020 9:52 PM

Dear friend...

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by Anonymousreply 255December 19, 2020 9:57 PM

[quote]Haney also did the dances for "Funny Girl" on Broadway, though it might have been a challenge dealing with Streisand, plus wasn't Jerome Robbins brought in as well? He was no walk in the park to deal with.

Robbins was brought in for several weeks to doctor the entire production before it opened in New York. Haney was a fine choreographer and I doubt Robbins had concern himself much with the dancing.

by Anonymousreply 256December 19, 2020 10:04 PM

20th Century Fox brought the rights to Promises and Paramount had the rights to Coco but suddenly youth pictures that you made for peanuts and got a big return on were the thing. I do enjoy a few of the musicals from the period that were not big successes(ok they were thudding flops) but I really lament the loss of She Loves Me. Though to be honest I would have loved to have seen Massey recreate his role on film. There seems to be so little available of this wonderful actor. He and Julie would have been tremendous together. In fact all of Julie's lovers in Star! are so dull you wish she and Noel would just run off at the end and get married. Nobody expects a strict adherence to reality in a musical biopic.

by Anonymousreply 257December 19, 2020 10:11 PM

^To be more complete, Robbins was the original director/choreographer but eventually dropped out. Fosse was briefly involved. Finally Garson Kanin took over and is still the director of record but Streisand and he didn't get along and she asked to have Robbins back. He came back to shape and pace the show before it opened.

by Anonymousreply 258December 19, 2020 10:15 PM

That proposed film of She Loves Me with Andrews was to costar Dick Van Dyke, re-uniting them from Mary Poppins, before MGM puled the plug.

by Anonymousreply 259December 19, 2020 10:24 PM

One of my treasured possessions, r257...

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by Anonymousreply 260December 19, 2020 10:25 PM

[quote]Oh, come on. The production and costume design, the musical scoring, several of the performances, and so on.

I hate how Cecil Beaton made everything look "Edwardian by way of the 1960s" as opposed to his designs for the stage version. Audrey's hair for the ball was embarrassing. The only interesting thing in the scoring is that they changed the transition between Street Where You Live and I Could Have Danced All Night in the Overture.

by Anonymousreply 261December 19, 2020 10:26 PM

I understand their reticence, r259, but it had so much going for it that would keep it from being another lumbering, money-losing road show attraction. It was a small story that had been successfully filmed twice. Julie and Dick had proven screen chemistry. Oh well, 'twas not to be.

by Anonymousreply 262December 19, 2020 10:33 PM

[quote]Garson Kanin took over and is still the director of record but Streisand and he didn't get along

I wonder what their problem was?

by Anonymousreply 263December 19, 2020 10:38 PM

I think VanDyke would have been a disaster in SLM.

by Anonymousreply 264December 19, 2020 11:01 PM

[quote]People can break simple mechanical objects quite easily. An operator knows how to treat the machinery.

It would be impossible for someone to "break" an automatic, push-button elevator unless they were intent on vandalism, and would be difficult for them to do so even if they WERE intent on vandalism. Your comment is a perfect example of Person A arguing with Person B just for the sake of arguing, even when Person A's "point" is nonsensical.

[quote]The only reason that "Get Me To The Church" exists is so that they could use the chorus in Act 2. Most of Act 2 is between Eliza and Higgins and they needed a big chorus number in Act 2. That's not necessary in a film, so they could have cut the number altogether because it really serves no purpose: doesn't advance the plot, doesn't tell us anything new about Doolittle. I'm sure the only reason they kept it in the movie was to ensure Stanley Holloway would play the role.

There's only a small grain of truth or sense in your statement. Anyone with any knowledge of musical theater would know that the main reason why "Get Me to the Church on Time" is in the show, aside from giving Holloway as Doolittle another showcase number, is to give the audience a big, rousing song and dance number in the midst of a lot of solos and duets and talky book scenes involving only a few characters. That's why the song is necessary in the film as well, and why the powers that be largely botched it by cutting out all of the dancing (and by having Doolittle and the chorus sing the same lyrics over and over and over again).

by Anonymousreply 265December 19, 2020 11:36 PM

insufferable

by Anonymousreply 266December 19, 2020 11:58 PM

[quote]In the transition to automatic elevators, there was indeed a transition period where operators were still employed. After a few years they were phased out.

Yes, and that was the transition period I was talking about -- when elevator operators were just pushing buttons, and their jobs had nothing to do with opening mechanical doors or making sure the elevator lined up properly with the floor. Sadly, the bitchy individual at R240 was too dense to understand this, even though I had explained myself clearly.

by Anonymousreply 267December 20, 2020 12:06 AM

Reinking/Tune/Birdie

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by Anonymousreply 268December 20, 2020 12:42 AM

R266 = a bore whose only "contributions" to these threads are to insult me.

[quote]I think VanDyke would have been a disaster in SLM.

Why do you say that? What is it about that role that you don't think he could have handled? Or maybe you just don't like him as a performer in general? I think Georg in SHE LOVES ME would actually have been a more congenial role for him than either Bert in MARY POPPINS or Caractacus Potts in CHITTY CHITTY BANG BANG, because in SLM there would have been no need for him to attempt a Brit accent, and Georg would have played to his strengths in other ways.

by Anonymousreply 269December 20, 2020 12:47 AM

In the film of The Apartment (I'm the poster that brought it up last night, please don't hate me), Jack Lemmon's character (in his early narration) says that his office building has so many thousands of employees that the dozens of floors are given staggered quitting times so as not to clog the elevators. So I can see how having elevator operators might have been useful in limiting the maximum capacity and kept things moving.

Also, pretty elevator operators gave the pussyhounds more to play with.

by Anonymousreply 270December 20, 2020 12:49 AM

I would never have believed Dick Van Dyke as a Hungarian.

by Anonymousreply 271December 20, 2020 12:51 AM

LOL, R271 :-)

by Anonymousreply 272December 20, 2020 12:52 AM

r270 - When you're right, you're right Miss Olsen...

by Anonymousreply 273December 20, 2020 12:56 AM

I remember thinking the male elevator operator in "Pretty Woman" was cute.

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by Anonymousreply 274December 20, 2020 1:02 AM

That's Patrick Richwood. He also turned up in The Princess Diaries.

by Anonymousreply 275December 20, 2020 2:52 AM

Finally got bored enough to check out the prom. WTF with that songwriting?

by Anonymousreply 276December 20, 2020 2:54 AM

R107, congrats on pulling that bullshit out of your ass. SJWs HATED Ivo's WSS because of Amar Ramasar's casting and the omission of "I Feel Pretty" and the general fact that the women characters were short-changed for whatever it was that Ivo was trying to communicate about male violence.

by Anonymousreply 277December 20, 2020 3:16 AM

One last comment about elevator operators:

I remember when I first moved to NYC in the 1970s and lived in a huge old apartment building on West End Ave. We had only 2 elevators for 24 floors and 300 apartments. From about 5-6:30 pm every weekday the handy man would get in the elevator and switch controls so that he could operate it much faster by hand. At all other times it was push button and agonizingly slow in opening and closing the door. I think the slowness was very common back then with old elevators when they were only push button. I'm sure current NYers can verify that there are still a lot of those very slow elevators in older buildings.

by Anonymousreply 278December 20, 2020 3:22 AM

R269: He didn't use that accent again in [italic]Chitty[/italic], and thank God. They probably would have not let him do it if he had. It would have ruined "Hushabye Mountain." Caractacus could easily have been born while his mother and father were on vacation in the US, based on the song "Posh." That's the only explanation I can think of for why he's the only one in this tiny English village with an American accent. That was one of the first movie musicals to get a G rating on its initial release, and eventually as more and more musicals got that rating, that led to the stigma of musicals being perceived as kids' films (despite counterexamples such as [italic]Rocky Horror Picture Show[/italic]) combined with the recession and later AIDS made it harder and harder to get many of them greenlit.

And, of course, good old-fashioned guilt by association with LucyMAME.

by Anonymousreply 279December 20, 2020 3:25 AM

Dick Van Dyck could have gone either way in a movie of SHE LOVES ME. Had he delivered more Albert from BYE-BYE BIRDIE (put-upon but sincere straight man) and far less Bert from MARY POPPINS (over-the-top clowning and mugging), he may have actually been quite good.

by Anonymousreply 280December 20, 2020 3:27 AM

r277, while it's true that the women in Ivo's WSS were shortchanged in stage time, Maria was played cast and played with a fierceness and ownership I've never seen before. She was not a helpless ingenue. Another refreshing and revolutionary re-interpretation of this production.

by Anonymousreply 281December 20, 2020 3:28 AM

Would Rita have got Ilona?

by Anonymousreply 282December 20, 2020 3:29 AM

Lucy's MAME killed everything in its path.

It's why I always think of it as MAIM.

by Anonymousreply 283December 20, 2020 3:29 AM

R283: Think of all the musicals that didn't get greenlit because of the central miscasting at the heart of a film that could have been a hit.

by Anonymousreply 284December 20, 2020 3:30 AM

[quote]Well, they cared enough to film it, didn't they?

They sure did!

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by Anonymousreply 285December 20, 2020 3:30 AM

Ben Vereen sang that song on [italic]Webster[/italic] in the episode where he took Web back to the school he and his father went to in Atlanta — without Katherine and George's permission.

by Anonymousreply 286December 20, 2020 3:35 AM

I could eat alphabet soup and shit better lyrics." - Johnny Mercer Talking about the prom

by Anonymousreply 287December 20, 2020 3:43 AM

Why are Broadway plays trying so hard to make a point? Is a simple story not good enough?

by Anonymousreply 288December 20, 2020 3:48 AM

There is very little dancing in MFL. Only a bit of old music hall hoofing, swanning about in elegant clothes and waltzing in a ballroom where people are supposed to waltz because that is what is done there. I saw the '76 revival on Broadway which was supposed to duplicate the original production and I don't remember much dancing there either. To all of a sudden have a big production number in the second half of the film would have been a where the hell did that come from moment. My Fair Lady is not Half a Sixpence.

by Anonymousreply 289December 20, 2020 4:09 AM

To go full-on [italic]Hello, Dolly![/italic] with that song would have been inconsistent with everything else. They nixed a shoot in actual London pubs because they wanted to keep everything in Burbank, but they wanted to keep it at a relatively reasonable scale. It's funny how the complaints contradict each other: one says it's too big and the other says it's not big enough. I disagree with both assertions! They really managed to create a whole that was greater than the sum of its parts, and that's why it's endured through all these years of re-releases and restorations and every new video format in the book. There'll probably even be a [italic]My Fair Lady[/italic] hologram someday. There was a Barbie doll in the 1990s that tried to recreate one of Cecil Beaton's costumes.

by Anonymousreply 290December 20, 2020 4:13 AM

I hope the van Hove WSS reopens on Broadway and then gets a tour. I wanna see it.

WSS was desperately in need of a real overhaul.

by Anonymousreply 291December 20, 2020 4:50 AM

[quote]He didn't use that accent again in Chitty, and thank God. They probably would have not let him do it if he had. It would have ruined "Hushabye Mountain." Caractacus could easily have been born while his mother and father were on vacation in the US, based on the song "Posh." That's the only explanation I can think of for why he's the only one in this tiny English village with an American accent.

That's what I meant. Van Dyke was raked over the coals for his Brit accent in MARY POPPINS, at least for his Cockney accent as Bert, not so much for his upper-crust accent as Mr. Dawes Sr.. So he attempted no Brit accent for CHITTY, and that made no sense, as he was the ONLY actor in the movie without one -- including the two who played his children.

[quote]That was one of the first movie musicals to get a G rating on its initial release, and eventually as more and more musicals got that rating, that led to the stigma of musicals being perceived as kids' films.

I don't understand your point. I'm pretty sure that every movie musical released before the rating system was established, maybe with the possible exception of WEST SIDE STORY, would have received a G rating if the system had been in place then.

[quote]While it's true that the women in Ivo's WSS were shortchanged in stage time, Maria was cast and played with a fierceness and ownership I've never seen before. She was not a helpless ingenue. Another refreshing and revolutionary re-interpretation of this production.

NO previous production of WSS that I have ever seen, including the movie, had a Maria who came across as a "helpless ingenue." The person who played the role in the van Hove production played it with lots of indicated "fierceness" and anger but little or no charm, and that was one of the show's biggest flaws. Oh, and someone decided that only Tony should sing "Somewhere," not Maria also, maybe because she couldn't sing it well. Come to think of it, maybe that was part of the reason why they cut "I Feel Pretty."

by Anonymousreply 292December 20, 2020 5:02 AM

[quote] I don't understand your point. I'm pretty sure that every movie musical released before the rating system was established, maybe with the possible exception of WEST SIDE STORY, would have received a G rating if the system had been in place then.

Not necessarily. Lots of times during the Production Code years, they bowdlerized the lyrics. 1962's [italic]Gypsy[/italic] is one such example; in "You Gotta Get a Gimmick," they replaced "grind your behind till you're banned" with "grind till you're fined or you're banned," which loses the alliteration but not the internal "-ind" rhyme.

by Anonymousreply 293December 20, 2020 5:19 AM

The Production Code of Old Hollywood (1934-1968) may have hindered creativity, but the new version of the Hay's Code (2015-) is also stifling creativity. The difference is that back then the religious right were in charge, but now that Hollywood has swung to the far-left, they now dictate what can and cannot be portrayed on screen or on stage. Nowadays, you can only get something seen if it applies to SJW rules. Either way, the arts suffer because it is not talent being picked but quotas.

by Anonymousreply 294December 20, 2020 5:29 AM

But James Corden in a catsuit they think people will pay to go see.

by Anonymousreply 295December 20, 2020 5:30 AM

Quotas just breed mediocrity.

by Anonymousreply 296December 20, 2020 5:31 AM

Speaking of The Prom- I have been reading one of those decade books about Broadway Musicals by Dan Dietz that's super expensive to buy (but I found it as an ebook in my library), this one for the 2000s, and I noticed how many shows Chad Beguelin and Matthew Sklar have written that have been nominated for Tonys for book and score. They've got to be verging on Danny Burstein territory for number of nominations with no wins. And they are terrible! If you were to look at them purely from an awards standpoint, you'd think they were Lerner and Lowe, but they're sub-Wildhorn. How have they scored so many nominations? And now they're frontrunners for an Academy Award simply because there are hardly any viable candidates. Talk about failing upwards.

by Anonymousreply 297December 20, 2020 5:38 AM

Today is Dec. 20, 2020. Exactly one year from now--Dec. 20, 2021--you could be attending the first preview of Hugh Jackman-Sutton Foster in "The Music Man" at the Winter Garden. And it just might happen.

by Anonymousreply 298December 20, 2020 6:18 AM

R298 and by then Sutton will be a contralto and they’ll have to lower the keys to all her songs.

by Anonymousreply 299December 20, 2020 9:59 AM

Thanks, r280. My feeling is that Van Dyke might never suppress that goofy side; it seemed to be his calling card after the TV series. And I worry that the movie might have interpolated a lot of the shtick. Can't see him as the slightly repressed bookworm the role asks for.

by Anonymousreply 300December 20, 2020 12:38 PM

With this new revival of West Side Story, why is Sondheim allowing them to cut songs and reinterpret them?

by Anonymousreply 301December 20, 2020 12:50 PM

Sondheim says he believes that theater thrives when it's open to interpretation and isn't frozen in amber, or something like that

by Anonymousreply 302December 20, 2020 12:54 PM

Around the time that a She Loves Me movie would have been filmed, was it known that Dick Van Dyke was an alcoholic? Was he a functioning alcoholic who could control it during a movie shoot or did his career suffer because of it?

by Anonymousreply 303December 20, 2020 12:57 PM

"Why are Broadway plays trying so hard to make a point? Is a simple story not good enough?"

Broadway is woke. Get with the program.

by Anonymousreply 304December 20, 2020 12:59 PM

[quote]Why are Broadway plays trying so hard to make a point?

You want pointless theater?

[quote]Is a simple story not good enough?

NO!

by Anonymousreply 305December 20, 2020 1:04 PM

[quote] Sondheim says he believes that theater thrives when it's open to interpretation and isn't frozen in amber, or something like that

I agree with him in principle. But oh, dear. Given the choice between Van Hove and amber, I’d rather the latter.

by Anonymousreply 306December 20, 2020 1:40 PM

R288, at the current ticket prices, no one would pay for a simple story.

The show has to be an event or at least "meaningful" since people are spending so much to go out.

by Anonymousreply 307December 20, 2020 1:46 PM

I'm sure that Sondheim truly believes this, but I think it's also true that he wasn't that crazy about his lyrics to begin with. He might feel differently about someone tinkering with some of his other scores/lyrics. I know Spielberg touched base with Sondheim while making the new WSS film; did Van Hove consult with him on the "reinterpreations"?

by Anonymousreply 308December 20, 2020 2:10 PM

For a Broadway production, what do you think R308?

by Anonymousreply 309December 20, 2020 2:22 PM

[quote] I'm sure that Sondheim truly believes this, but I think it's also true that he wasn't that crazy about his lyrics to begin with. He might feel differently about someone tinkering with some of his other scores/lyrics.

He didn’t seem to mind what they did to “Company” either.

by Anonymousreply 310December 20, 2020 2:44 PM

R292. The idea that Potts could have had an American accent if he had been born in the US while his parents were on VACATION has to be one of the stupidest explanations I’ve ever read. He hardly would have acquired language during that period and his dialect would have been shaped by the speech patterns he heard as a child,

by Anonymousreply 311December 20, 2020 2:45 PM

r292, do you think Maria (Natalie Wood) chose to wear that white virginal dress to the dance in the gym or was she helpless against Anita and Bernardo's insistence? She's forced to look like a child next to all the Shark and Jet girls. Is she not helpless in having to secretly meet with Tony afterwards?

Nothing wrong with that interpretation and, of course, that's how it was originally and most often played and costumed. And btw Irene Sharaff was a genius. But it's just refreshing to see Ivo's new interpretation of the character .

by Anonymousreply 312December 20, 2020 2:55 PM

Well, Van was certainly repressed, r300...

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by Anonymousreply 313December 20, 2020 3:17 PM

If you have an answer, r309, let's hear it. Otherwise, kindly shut the fuck up.

Sondheim was enthusiastic about the changes to Company, but he kept the pen; nobody else jumped in and changed his lyrics.

by Anonymousreply 314December 20, 2020 3:19 PM

R&H did small love stories...set against big backdrops.

by Anonymousreply 315December 20, 2020 3:25 PM

Okay, R314. Broadway productions are under a first-class contract. The theaters are large (big royalties) and there is going to be a lot of media attention to any production that plays there. So any writer is more interested in a production there than most regionals because a Broadway production is going to influence other productions for decades to come. (And it can make them more money than other productions--so they do not want their work fucked up.)

For the producers, they have a large investment. They do not want the author to shut their production down. Furthermore, they do not want the author to let the production run but badmouth it publicly. Furthermore, they want the authors (especially one who is one of the most respected in American theater) to cooperate with their marketing company.

So do you think that a producer is not going to risk not consulting with the only surviving author? Or do you think that author is not going to be interested in consulting?

by Anonymousreply 316December 20, 2020 3:39 PM

The Dramatists Guild is the union that protects playwrights and librettists. It's very pro-active about ensuring its members' exact words. Nothing can be changed without their permission.

by Anonymousreply 317December 20, 2020 3:45 PM

And if permission is not given, the production can be shut down. Or at the very least need to close until the altered material is reinstated.

by Anonymousreply 318December 20, 2020 3:54 PM

[quote] Sondheim was enthusiastic about the changes to Company, but he kept the pen; nobody else jumped in and changed his lyrics.

Songs may have been cut, but what lyrics were changed in the recent WSS?

by Anonymousreply 319December 20, 2020 3:55 PM

The reason for elevator operators had more to do with the sliding gates. I live in a building with an ancient private elevator and when it breaks down, it's usually because some idiot has slammed the gates open or closed hard enough to knock them off their track, which completely incapacitates the whole thing.

by Anonymousreply 320December 20, 2020 4:35 PM

OMG.

Elevator operators = the new FOLLIES.

Damn you, 2020! Damn you straight to hell.

by Anonymousreply 321December 20, 2020 5:02 PM

R320, there is no gate, in the elevator MacLaine operates in The Apartment.

Look at the film or even the trailer. It is the same kind of elevator that runs today in most office buildings. No gate. Just doors.

by Anonymousreply 322December 20, 2020 5:09 PM

In a crowded building during the busiest times, an elevator operator can help get the maximum efficiency out of the elevator. Announce the arrival of the elevator. Pause it until people are on or off. Close the doors and leave when the car is filled or no one is left to enter it.

It's a colossal pain in the ass during busy times to have idiots holding the doors for people running down the hall, or to have elevators leave half filled because some moron was standing in front of the door texting. Automatic push button elevators work very well most of the time, but during the busiest times in the busiest buildings, they do not.

by Anonymousreply 323December 20, 2020 5:29 PM

There were elevators on Boris Aronson's set for COMPANY

by Anonymousreply 324December 20, 2020 5:30 PM

Small love stories...set against big backdrops.

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by Anonymousreply 325December 20, 2020 5:33 PM

Compare and contrast:

Elevator Operators vs. Answering Services

by Anonymousreply 326December 20, 2020 5:40 PM

It's Susanswerphone, r326.

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by Anonymousreply 327December 20, 2020 5:50 PM

Too bad there wasn't an elevator operator here.

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by Anonymousreply 328December 20, 2020 7:23 PM

SWEET CHARITY also has a famous number "I'm the Bravest Individual" set in a Manhattan elevator. And, of course, Shirl starred in (and ruined) the film version.

by Anonymousreply 329December 20, 2020 7:27 PM

I would say John McMartin ruined it. A less appealing actor there has never been.

by Anonymousreply 330December 20, 2020 7:29 PM

R252, Nixon, Rose.

by Anonymousreply 331December 20, 2020 7:47 PM

Now HERE'S an appealing actor doing that scene.

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by Anonymousreply 332December 20, 2020 7:58 PM

Steve will willingly alter lyrics if you're a superstar. And beautiful.

by Anonymousreply 333December 20, 2020 8:45 PM

[quote]Not necessarily. Lots of times during the Production Code years, they bowdlerized the lyrics. 1962's Gypsy is one such example; in "You Gotta Get a Gimmick," they replaced "grind your behind till you're banned" with "grind till you're fined or you're banned," which loses the alliteration but not the internal "-ind" rhyme.

Exactly, R293. And partly for that reason, as I said, every or almost every musical released before the ratings system was in place would have received a G rating if the system had been in place then. Did you understand me the second time?

[quote]I'm sure that Sondheim truly believes this, but I think it's also true that he wasn't that crazy about his lyrics to begin with. He might feel differently about someone tinkering with some of his other scores/lyrics. I know Spielberg touched base with Sondheim while making the new WSS film; did Van Hove consult with him on the "reinterpreations"?

Yes, R308, and Sondheim has expressed particular displeasure over his own lyrics for "I Feel Pretty," so I'm sure that goes a long way towards explaining how and why that vitally important song was cut from the deplorable van Hove production.

[quote]Do you think Maria (Natalie Wood) chose to wear that white virginal dress to the dance in the gym or was she helpless against Anita and Bernardo's insistence? She's forced to look like a child next to all the Shark and Jet girls. Is she not helpless in having to secretly meet with Tony afterwards?

To your first point, R312: As that scene is written, Maria at first chafes against wearing the white dress because, she says, "white is for babies." But then, when she tries it on, she realizes how young and beautiful she looks in it, and she tells Anita how much she loves her for making it for her. (I don't remember what the Maria in the von Hove production wore for that scene, nor do I care.) As for your second point, I have no idea what you mean, as Maria or course had to secretly meet with Tony in the von Hove production as well.

by Anonymousreply 334December 20, 2020 8:48 PM

SIX at the 2019 Oliviers.

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by Anonymousreply 335December 20, 2020 8:54 PM

"Love Thy Neighbor" from THE PROM with Andrew Rannells.

Cute production, okay song.

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by Anonymousreply 336December 20, 2020 8:56 PM

Millie manages to grow up with a proper British accent in a middle American small town so I don't see it unlikely that Potts grows up with a 20th century American accent in latter 19th century England.

by Anonymousreply 337December 20, 2020 9:01 PM

Any Richie Ridge stories? Had a bad experience with him on eBay.

by Anonymousreply 338December 20, 2020 9:12 PM

[quote]Steve will willingly alter lyrics if you're a superstar. And beautiful. —Barbra

And the cashier's check. Don't forget the cashier's check.

by Anonymousreply 339December 20, 2020 9:45 PM

My impression is that, in recent years, Sondheim hasn't objected to much less prevented any major productions of his shows, no matter how off-the-wall, apparently because he feels that keeping the works alive and before the public is the most important thing.

by Anonymousreply 340December 20, 2020 10:06 PM

I was working with Sondheim on a project when the whole John Doyle actors-as-orchestra thing started, and he was interested in flying out to (I think) Cincinnati to see his production of Company. He was skeptical, but curious, and said that if the end product was theatrical, and offered any insight at all into the story or characters then it was valid. But in any event it was worth trying out in front of an audience to see how it played. In my experience he is protective of his work, but always willing to see or try something new -even if it ultimately doesn't pan out.

by Anonymousreply 341December 20, 2020 10:11 PM

Cary Grant never even attempted an American accent, even though the majority of the roles he played were American.

by Anonymousreply 342December 20, 2020 10:21 PM

Aww, this was just on....

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by Anonymousreply 343December 20, 2020 10:25 PM

DL faves Danny Burstein and Carolee Carmelo in .... "Estella Scrooge!"

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by Anonymousreply 344December 20, 2020 10:38 PM

Sondheim is smart, unlike r334, who sounds like a benighted refugee from All That Chat.

Re-interpretations of his work are, of course, what will keep the properties relevant and popular with new as well as open-minded old audiences. The Jerome Robbins version of WSS will always be there on film for all to see. Why not explore new ways to view these brilliant classic works?

Can you imagine if we lived in a world where Shakespeare or Moliere or Verdi or Wagner or Ibsen could insist that their work only be seen as it originally was?

by Anonymousreply 345December 21, 2020 12:07 AM

Wasn't Sondheim pretty outspoken about Porgy & Audra?

by Anonymousreply 346December 21, 2020 12:09 AM

He was outspoken about the revised orchestrations and other changes to the score. He considers it one of the all-time greatest achievements, and not in need of revision or "updating."

by Anonymousreply 347December 21, 2020 12:11 AM

The difference was Sondheim had no financial interest in Porgy succeeding.

by Anonymousreply 348December 21, 2020 12:26 AM

The difference is that DuBose Heyward and the Gershwins were not alive to approve or disapprove; Sondheim is alive and can control his works.

by Anonymousreply 349December 21, 2020 12:29 AM

Sondheim is a sub as long as there is consent?

by Anonymousreply 350December 21, 2020 12:35 AM

Sondheim never said that Porgy & Bess must never be tampered with in any way. It's not his way of thinking.

But he strongly objected to the orchestral changes and major cuts that were being made for that production. I believe he was also put off by titling it The Gershwins' Porgy & Bess (though that was the estate's doing).

by Anonymousreply 351December 21, 2020 12:37 AM

[quote]SWEET CHARITY also has a famous number "I'm the Bravest Individual" set in a Manhattan elevator. And, of course, Shirl starred in (and ruined) the film version.

"I'm the Bravest Individual" wasn't used in the movie version of "Sweet Charity." Shirl sings a different song in the stalled elevator ("It's a Nice Face").

by Anonymousreply 352December 21, 2020 12:37 AM

R351, but he has NEVER been critical of a production of his own work while it is running.

He does not want to hurt his own box office, but is fine trashing other"s.

by Anonymousreply 353December 21, 2020 12:47 AM

It's not the box office, R353 -It is that he has agreed to whatever is happening in the theatre, and whether he likes it or not, he shows respect for his collaborators.

by Anonymousreply 354December 21, 2020 12:49 AM

I guess that's why he chose never to collaborate with me.

by Anonymousreply 355December 21, 2020 12:53 AM

Sondheim also notably trashed Lady Gaga's tribute to THE SOUND OF MUSIC at an awards show (that year's Oscars? I forget) in a way that many found petty and rather mean-spirited.

by Anonymousreply 356December 21, 2020 12:57 AM

I feel sorry for him. If he dares to express an opinion about anything he is mean and petty... He's a gay man, for gawd's sake! Let him dish like the rest of us!

by Anonymousreply 357December 21, 2020 12:59 AM

I feel sorry for ha!

by Anonymousreply 358December 21, 2020 1:01 AM

If Sondheim wants money, it's probably not wise for him to cite a production as being crappy. It seems like every new production is his favorite and brings something new to the piece. I remember how he raved about Imelda Staunton's Everything's Coming Up Roses acting as if it were the first time a true actress ever played the role.

by Anonymousreply 359December 21, 2020 1:07 AM

I think that's unfair comment, r348, or at least inaccurate. Sondheim largely objected to the creative team's assertions that their changes to text, invented backstories and characterizations were exactly what Gershwin would have done had he lived. That, and failing to give credit to DuBose Heyward's contributions (which in Sondheim's view were everything). His gripe wouldn't have included Audra had she not mouthed off, claiming along with the others to know what long-dead Gershwin would want.

by Anonymousreply 360December 21, 2020 1:22 AM

R357, I'm sure the resources of Datalounge are at his feet if Sondheim ever wants to dish anonymously. (As long as he mentions Follies now and again, obviously.)

Supposing such a thing was allowable, anyone who was prepared to change Sondheim's lyrics for him would automatically not be the right person for the job.

by Anonymousreply 361December 21, 2020 1:42 AM

I think it's safe to say that at age 90 Sondheim doesn't need to worry about money. If he comments about a new production of his, yea or nay, it's not about a need for money.

by Anonymousreply 362December 21, 2020 1:43 AM

He may not need money but that doesn't mean he's not concerned with what's bad for business.

by Anonymousreply 363December 21, 2020 1:44 AM

Of course, contractually he may not be allowed to disparage a production of his work without some penalty.

by Anonymousreply 364December 21, 2020 1:58 AM

I am reminded of a TV interview with Myra Carter in which she explained what was wrong with the second act of Three Tall Women (which she was currently appearing in), and expressed frustrations that Edward would not listen when she explained the problems in the script to him.

That would have made me put in a non-disparagement clause in every contract.

by Anonymousreply 365December 21, 2020 2:00 AM

[quote]I am reminded of a TV interview with Myra Carter in which she explained what was wrong with the second act of Three Tall Women

r365, do you remember what she said about the play? I'm curious to know what she thought was wrong.

by Anonymousreply 366December 21, 2020 2:12 AM

"It should have been Two Tall Women and One Short Woman. That's comedy!"

by Anonymousreply 367December 21, 2020 2:16 AM

I don't remember what Carter said because I had not seen or read the play at that point. Also, it was her complete ungraciousness that made the biggest impression. This play put her on the map at an age when most actresses have little hope of even working.

She was a great actress but no one worked with her twice.

She was in an early episode of Fraiser with one scene and she drove them nuts too.

by Anonymousreply 368December 21, 2020 2:25 AM

What did Steve say about Gaga and her tribute to SOM?

by Anonymousreply 369December 21, 2020 3:38 AM

Myra thought r334 was Insufferable.

by Anonymousreply 370December 21, 2020 4:07 AM

[quote]Sondheim is smart, unlike [R334], who sounds like a benighted refugee from All That Chat. Re-interpretations of his work are, of course, what will keep the properties relevant and popular with new as well as open-minded old audiences.

Agreed to a certain extent, but some of us draw the line at radical reinterpretations that include major cuts and changes and "reinterpretations" that fly in the face of what the creators were going for in the original production.

[quote]The difference is that DuBose Heyward and the Gershwins were not alive to approve or disapprove; Sondheim is alive and can control his works.

Sondheim is only one of the four major creators of WEST SIDE STORY, the other three being Jerome Robbins, Leonard Bernstein, and Arthur Laurents, all of whom are dead. And even in the cases of he shows for which Sondheim wrote both music and lyrics, all of those shows of course had book writers, and most of those people are dead as well.

[quote]It seems like every new production is his favorite and brings something new to the piece. I remember how he raved about Imelda Staunton's Everything's Coming Up Roses acting as if it were the first time a true actress ever played the role.

Although I understand why Sondheim does this, I still think it's unfortunate. Maybe it would be better for all concerned if he refrained from expressing positive or negative opinions about new productions of his works and just let people decide from themselves, rather than being swayed by the words of God.

by Anonymousreply 371December 21, 2020 4:17 AM

Insufferable

by Anonymousreply 372December 21, 2020 4:37 AM

R311: It's not stupid because how else do you explain immigrant children who speak differently from their parents?

by Anonymousreply 373December 21, 2020 6:05 AM

So, should the revised “fuck” lyrics be used in Sweeney Todd?

Sondheim says:

PC: That production of SWEENEY TODD used the "like a f*cking machine he planned" line in the opening number, did it not?

SS: That was Declan Donnellan's suggestion for the Cottesloe production in London. When he was directing it, he said, "I'd love to use that," and, I said, "Sure, try it.”

PC: Would you like to see that lyric used in any future productions? It certainly gives the audience a jolt right from the outset.

SS: Eh, I think it made more sense in England - when you hear it with a more Cockney feeling. It's different - and harsher - in America; and, I think it would seem out-of-place. But, I think it sort of goes with the slang in cockney London.

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by Anonymousreply 374December 21, 2020 6:42 AM

R373, immigrants. Not vacationers.

"My parents took me on a vacation to Germany when I was a toddler. I was so young I cannot even remember, but I have not been able to shake this German accent for 30 years."

Really?

by Anonymousreply 375December 21, 2020 11:50 AM

I saw Kinky Boots on YouTube over the weekend.

The Shows Must Go On channel is presenting plays free for 48 hours seeing donation for the Actors Fund. The next play on the schedule which is already premiering today is The Railway Children.

I enjoyed Kinky Boots. I know it's not popular here to enjoy anything except Sondheim and some classic musicals and the grand dames that starred in them. But I enjoyed this musical, some really sweet, beautiful moments, some really fun ones and some representation for our community.

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by Anonymousreply 376December 21, 2020 1:43 PM

Kinky Boots was one of the worst things I've ever seen.

by Anonymousreply 377December 21, 2020 1:46 PM

R371, Steve should have corrected Imelda on how she pronounced “everything.” Americans pronounce it as “ev-ree-thing,” not “ev-ruh-thing.”

by Anonymousreply 378December 21, 2020 2:10 PM

"isn't frozen in amber"

He isn't speaking for me.

by Anonymousreply 379December 21, 2020 2:34 PM

My favorite musical is Sweeney Todd.

I enjoyed Kinky Boots, not saying it's a masterpiece, I don't think Broadway is going for masterpieces in musical theater. For a general audience it's good, I can enjoy things made for general audiences sometimes.

Sorry to hear you wasted your money, evening or afternoon r377.

by Anonymousreply 380December 21, 2020 3:00 PM

The reason Ivo and Rudin took the intermission out of WSS was they knew a healthy number of audience members would have left. The night I saw it, four women behind me walked out 1/2 through. The production was so stupidly WOKE it was embarrassing, and to pretend that Van Howe understands anything about America right now, or has any interesting insight, is silly. He's all conceptual head, and that's it. He clearly doesn't understand musicals -- which I understood about 10 minutes in -- and from this show, you can make the case he sort of hates them -- which I understood 12 minutes in. If it comes back, it will flop, because they were already radically discounting to get an audience and word of mouth was abysmal, except for the Seven Sisters crowd who were masturbating over it.

by Anonymousreply 381December 21, 2020 3:04 PM

I think that anyone who hates everything about the Van Hove WSS is indeed insufferable. It failed on many levels, but some of it was thrilling, IMO. Thank the gods people are addressing these classics with fresh eyes. And yes, I loved the recent OKLAHOMA! too.

by Anonymousreply 382December 21, 2020 3:18 PM

Julie Andrews' daughter Emma speaks with an American accent, unlike Julie. Have no idea how the two Vietnamese-adopted daughters sound, as they never seem to even have their pictures taken.

by Anonymousreply 383December 21, 2020 3:30 PM

Yes, r382, that production is (was?) so frustrating. I thought Powell was spectacular, fresh and vital, and Pimental quite good, too. The video overpowered those poor performers so much of the time, I'm surprised they didn't hurl rocks at those screens for pulling focus. And yet sometimes, like when they were in the drugstore, it was impactful. The choreo/movement was often chilling, once you got past the fact that it wasn't the original; I give it credit for attempting it and shaking off the Robbins "rules" for once. But again, fuck those videos.

by Anonymousreply 384December 21, 2020 3:35 PM

[quote]I enjoyed Kinky Boots. I know it's not popular here to enjoy anything except Sondheim and some classic musicals and the grand dames that starred in them. But I enjoyed this musical, some really sweet, beautiful moments, some really fun ones and some representation for our community.

It's a very enjoyable show overall, with a good score, but it would be even better if somebody other than Harvey Fierstein had written the book. He always feels he has to hammer home whatever points he's trying to make, and that really turns me off.

[quote]I think that anyone who hates everything about the Van Hove WSS is indeed insufferable. It failed on many levels, but some of it was thrilling, IMO. Thank the gods people are addressing these classics with fresh eyes. And yes, I loved the recent OKLAHOMA! too.

Methinks the word "insufferable" is beginning to be over-used in these theater threads. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them "insufferable." For what it's worth, I will agree that there were a few effective moments in the van Hove WSS, but on balance, that production was a desecration. Same with OKLAHOMA!, and if you loved THAT production, you must really hate the show as written.

R384, the videos were far from the only huge problem with that WSS. You didn't mention that, in conjunction with the use of the videos, some of the scenes were played on small playing areas at the extreme rear of the huge Broadway Theatre stage, which to my mind is an idiotic thing to do in what's supposedly a live theater production. Van Hove had previously done something similar in NETWORK, but there it arguably made at least a little bit more sense due to the subject matter.

by Anonymousreply 385December 21, 2020 3:51 PM

I'm the biggest Sondheim fan in the world -And I enjoyed Kinky Boots enough to see it three times in the theatre, and have watched the filmed London version several times. There is nothing wrong with a show being purely entertaining! And Kinky Boots IS entertaining -and has a great message of acceptance and inclusion. The story is powerful (and based in fact) and songs like "I'm Not My Father's Son" show real depth and emotion. You can love Sweeney Todd and Mamma Mia both. Just go to the theatre with an open mind and prepared to go somewhere -a beautiful museum, a lovely memory, or an escapist fantasy. It doesn't matter.

by Anonymousreply 386December 21, 2020 3:52 PM

Yes, r368, "Slow Tango in South Seattle"... she played Connie Gavin's mother.

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by Anonymousreply 387December 21, 2020 4:35 PM

Seems odd to consider the revival of WSS as woke given they cast Amar Ramasar

by Anonymousreply 388December 21, 2020 5:12 PM

[quote]Seems odd to consider the revival of WSS as woke given they cast Amar Ramasar

Good point, but it was "woke" in just about every other way. Painfully so.

by Anonymousreply 389December 21, 2020 5:53 PM

I pictured Myra Carter to be more angular and severe looking.

By the time I saw Three Tall Women, Carter had left the show and Marian Seldes had moved to her role. Joan Van Ark had taken over Seldes' previous role. All three women were marvelous and the show really made an impact in that small theater.

Carter won four acting awards for her performance, and had the show moved to Broadway that season, she likely would have won the Tony for Best Featured Actress (she would never have beaten Diana Rigg for Medea in lead, but would have easily trounced Jane Adams for An Inspector Calls).

The revival did not work for me, even in the Golden, because it's not a Broadway show. It's far too intimate an experience.

by Anonymousreply 390December 21, 2020 5:55 PM

Carter was a “local actress,” somewhere (Atlanta?). she’s lucky she had a NY success in anything.

by Anonymousreply 391December 21, 2020 6:34 PM

Totally agree about THREE TALL WOMEN in its Promenade Theatre off-Broadway premiere. On Broadway it was all gussied up with mirrors and Glenda Jackson and Laurie Metcalf in Nikes but it had little of the gut-punch of the original.

by Anonymousreply 392December 21, 2020 7:54 PM

Can Hugh Jackman Be the Savior Broadway Needs Him to Be?

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by Anonymousreply 393December 21, 2020 8:49 PM

So, r385, I can't love the revised OKLAHOMA as well as the original? Thanks for letting me know. I thought I could, I thought my mind was allowed to embrace two opposing thoughts at once, until you came along to set me right.

by Anonymousreply 394December 21, 2020 8:53 PM

R383, Emma Walton has an American accent because she was raised in the US.

She did not just come here on a vacation.

by Anonymousreply 395December 21, 2020 10:21 PM

John Barrowman is bidialectical.

by Anonymousreply 396December 21, 2020 10:30 PM

Ditto Gillian Anderson.

by Anonymousreply 397December 21, 2020 10:30 PM

R386, La Cage did it better. Same message, stronger score, funnier lines. Less heavy handed and doesn't talk down to its audience.

by Anonymousreply 398December 21, 2020 10:57 PM

Everybody Say Yeah!

by Anonymousreply 399December 21, 2020 11:02 PM

[quote]So, [R385], I can't love the revised OKLAHOMA as well as the original? Thanks for letting me know. I thought I could, I thought my mind was allowed to embrace two opposing thoughts at once, until you came along to set me right.

Actually, I'm going to apologize for what I wrote and amend it. Although I personally can't understand how you could love both the original and revised versions of OKLAHOMA!, of course that's up to you. But since you yourself admit that the revisal offered an "opposing thought" to the original, how can you embrace that if it's so contrary to what Rodgers, Hammerstein, et al. created? If you wrote a show that was a very positive portrayal of liberals, for example, and then, 75 years from now, someone were to present a "new interpretation" of it that was highly negative toward liberals, how would you feel about that? And how would you feel about the fact that the show still had the original title, and still had you credited as the author?

As I've always said, if someone wants to radically change the text and/or the interpretation of a show so drastically that it scarcely resembles the original, they should probably just write their own new show, and if they insist on doing it the other way, the least they can do is change the title of the original to something like FORMERLY OKLAHOMA! or NOT YOUR GRANDFATHER'S OKLAHOMA!

by Anonymousreply 400December 21, 2020 11:25 PM

[Quote] how can you embrace that if it's so contrary to what Rodgers, Hammerstein, et al. created?

How can one embrace the ending of "My Fair Lady" when it's so contrary to what Shaw created?

by Anonymousreply 401December 21, 2020 11:40 PM

R398. Very true. But audiences were smarter and more sophisticated back then.

by Anonymousreply 402December 21, 2020 11:43 PM

[quote][R373], immigrants. Not vacationers. "My parents took me on a vacation to Germany when I was a toddler. I was so young I cannot even remember, but I have not been able to shake this German accent for 30 years." Really?

The likelihood that Caractacus Potts would have spent his entire childhood cooped up in a tiny English village while his father was traveling the world is not high. And they never mentioned his mother, presumably dead, or whether she was English or American.

by Anonymousreply 403December 21, 2020 11:45 PM

[quote][R398]. Very true. But audiences were smarter and more sophisticated back then.

The same year [italic]La Cage[/italic] opened on Broadway is the same year Mr. T starred in [italic]DC Cab[/italic].

by Anonymousreply 404December 21, 2020 11:46 PM

And Hearn wasn't allowed in drag on the Tonys.

by Anonymousreply 405December 21, 2020 11:48 PM

Bullshit, r405.

by Anonymousreply 406December 22, 2020 12:04 AM

How about the fact that Dick Van Dyke, who played Caractacus was actually older than Lionel Jeffries who played his father.

by Anonymousreply 407December 22, 2020 12:37 AM

I see nothing wrong with that.

by Anonymousreply 408December 22, 2020 12:41 AM

You wouldn't, Cary!

by Anonymousreply 409December 22, 2020 12:46 AM

My very favorite DVD episode...

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by Anonymousreply 410December 22, 2020 1:03 AM

Shaw wrote the screenplay of the film of Pygmalion. Higgins and Eliza did indeed get together at the end. The musical is based on the film. So Shaw gave it his maybe reluctant blessing. But Eliza most definitely does not slam the door like Nora as Sher would have it as Eliza as she has found her place as an equal unlike Nora who goes to seek it. And Sher stole that from Bergman's production of A Doll's House in any case.

by Anonymousreply 411December 22, 2020 1:05 AM

Anthony Sher?

by Anonymousreply 412December 22, 2020 1:15 AM

THEATRE audiences were more sophisticated back then.

by Anonymousreply 413December 22, 2020 1:25 AM

Michael Reidel, at the shuberts behest, has had his tongue up Hugh Jackman's butt for a decade. it's ridiculous. And can we be done with Riedel? He's a hack and always has been.

by Anonymousreply 414December 22, 2020 1:27 AM

What about Barbara Cook's tongue?

by Anonymousreply 415December 22, 2020 1:33 AM

Never had it, r415. How did she prepare it?

by Anonymousreply 416December 22, 2020 1:34 AM

R412 Bart Sher the director of the most recent MFL revival on Broadway.

by Anonymousreply 417December 22, 2020 1:47 AM

It's not great art but Kinky Boots is enormously fun albeit frothy entertainment. And, there's nothing wrong with that. Jersey Boys is similar in that the book is just lazy biopic shit but the "rise to fame" story is fun and the music is terrific (and much better than Kinky Boots, obviously). There are many musicals like this...if you like ABBA, Mamma Mia is a terrific show despite it's stupid storyline.

But, Kinky Boots is also annoying because they don't allow the gay character to demonstrate any kind of gayness other than wearing a dress...they couldn't give Lola a love interest?

by Anonymousreply 418December 22, 2020 1:53 AM

Many gay men don't have a love interest.

by Anonymousreply 419December 22, 2020 2:05 AM

And gay men who do drag...

by Anonymousreply 420December 22, 2020 2:05 AM

R420 and, gay men who do drag....what?

by Anonymousreply 421December 22, 2020 2:07 AM

Never understood why they set Kinky Boots in the UK when it was created by Americans for a Broadway audience. I know the original film was British but wouldn't the Broadway show have been better served in an industrial city like Pittsburgh? The British accents were PAINFUL and distracting.

by Anonymousreply 422December 22, 2020 2:09 AM

[Quote] and, gay men who do drag....what?

Historically have found it harder to date. RPDR has turned things around for many of the contestants.

by Anonymousreply 423December 22, 2020 2:10 AM

[Quote] Never understood why they set Kinky Boots in the UK when it was created by Americans for a Broadway audience.

And they set MAMMA MIA in Greece? Why?!

by Anonymousreply 424December 22, 2020 2:10 AM

R423 I know tons of drag queens.

Many of them "date" quite a lot and many of them have partners/husbands.

by Anonymousreply 425December 22, 2020 2:13 AM

Kinky Boots is 2/3 a good musical and 1/3 shit. The shit starts with the first act finale (Everybody Say Yeah, which is one of the most incredibly unimaginative combinations of lazy writing and lazy staging) and continues into the second act through the fight. But then the rest of it is pretty good.

However, neither the original fiancé nor Lola’s father deserved the redemption they got in the final number. Other than that, though, the finale rocks.

by Anonymousreply 426December 22, 2020 2:20 AM

R422, they already did that with The Full Monty, and the Brits were livid. Many said that was why the London production of that show closed prematurely.

by Anonymousreply 427December 22, 2020 2:24 AM

But didn't they make Reno French in London?

by Anonymousreply 428December 22, 2020 2:29 AM

"Full Monty" isn't such a big draw since when so many British actors, especially men, have been getting their kit off on the stage, that it's not such a novelty -- though still appreciated, mind you!

by Anonymousreply 429December 22, 2020 2:32 AM

Doesn't "Full Monty" tour as a (non-musical) play over there?

by Anonymousreply 430December 22, 2020 2:32 AM

That's another production and script, and I believe so.

by Anonymousreply 431December 22, 2020 2:35 AM

"they should probably just write their own new show"

But that requires talent, taste and brains, all in short commodity today.

by Anonymousreply 432December 22, 2020 2:41 AM

Sondheim’s an asshole.

by Anonymousreply 433December 22, 2020 3:04 AM

What's the 411 on Sondheim's husband/partner?

by Anonymousreply 434December 22, 2020 3:08 AM

He has a sore ass and welts on his back.

by Anonymousreply 435December 22, 2020 3:13 AM

[quote]How can one embrace the ending of "My Fair Lady" when it's so contrary to what Shaw created?

First of all, that's false equivalency. Secondly, you may or may not be aware that the new ending used for MY FAIR LADY was first used in the 1938 film version of PYGMALION, which Shaw was on record as loving despite what he may have written and said at other times about how Eliza would end up with Freddy. And lastly, although MY FAIR LADY is generally considered brilliant, there have been objections to the ending from day one. And in fact, as I'm sure you know (or I hope you know), that ending was radically changed for the most recent Broadway production.

by Anonymousreply 436December 22, 2020 3:20 AM

[quote]Shaw wrote the screenplay of the film of Pygmalion. Higgins and Eliza did indeed get together at the end. The musical is based on the film.

Absolutely true. All the major changes from Pygmalion to My Fair Lady came from Shaw's screenplay, although I read an interview where Lerner claimed them as his own. He probably assumed people had forgotten the film.

Except for the final scene. The film's final scene in Higgins' library (used in MFL) was written by the film's producer Gabriel Pascal was added on without Shaw's knowledge. Shaw was infuriated when he saw the film's ending. I imagine he was somewhat assuaged when he won the Oscar for best screenplay.

by Anonymousreply 437December 22, 2020 3:36 AM

Shaw, like Sondheim, could be bought?

by Anonymousreply 438December 22, 2020 4:06 AM

Ready for another song to hate from ALW's Cinderella?

It's bad.

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by Anonymousreply 439December 22, 2020 4:27 AM

And there's this one that someone in the comments points out sounds like the song "How Does A Moment Last Forever" from Beauty and the Beast.

It does.

What is this man's problem with the song stealing?

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by Anonymousreply 440December 22, 2020 4:29 AM

I always put it down to lack of talent.

by Anonymousreply 441December 22, 2020 4:40 AM

Kinky Boots is a giant piece of shite, pitched to the dumbest, most vulgar low-brow audience sensibilities. Basically, a show for retards. Jerry Mitchell is no great thinker, either.

by Anonymousreply 442December 22, 2020 5:58 AM

Re George Hearn and the Tonys, the decision to not have Hearn in drag when he sang "I Am What I Am" had nothing to do with the Theatre Wing or with the Tony committee. It was Hearn himself who nixed it. He didn't want to be seen in drag on a major awards show.,

by Anonymousreply 443December 22, 2020 6:14 AM

A propos what, r433?

r434, the Sondheim husband is, by all accounts, a nice guy. And they've been together for about 15 years, so the chances are it's a relationship of some substance.

by Anonymousreply 444December 22, 2020 12:03 PM

George Hearn was a terrible Zaza. Keene Curtis who did the tour and took over on broadway was delightful. Hearn and his first replacement Walter Charles were burly men wearing dresses. And Gene Barry mentioning his wife at least 10 times in his playbill bio was hilarious. Neither wanted to be identified as gay.

by Anonymousreply 445December 22, 2020 1:53 PM

Didn't Hearn's request also have something to do with the assumption that he would win the Tony and that he didn't relish the idea of accepting the award in a dress?

by Anonymousreply 446December 22, 2020 1:59 PM

Oy. I was dismayed to see that the ALW CINDERELLA lyrics are by David Zippel. Zippel wrote CITY OF ANGELS and other shows.

C'mon, David. You're more talented than these really generic lyrics I'm hearing. Not terrible, but not good and really... basic.

by Anonymousreply 447December 22, 2020 3:09 PM

Walter Charles...

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by Anonymousreply 448December 22, 2020 3:29 PM

That would have been like Kristin accepting her Tony in Sally garb, r466.

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by Anonymousreply 449December 22, 2020 3:34 PM

Chenoweth performed as Sally, in full costume and wig, immediately before that category was presented. She went from Sally to an evening gown in two minutes.

by Anonymousreply 450December 22, 2020 3:40 PM

When did that whiny boy bandy singing voice become the norm for male theatre singers?

by Anonymousreply 451December 22, 2020 3:46 PM

Now this is a fairytale love song.

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by Anonymousreply 452December 22, 2020 3:48 PM

That's pretty!

by Anonymousreply 453December 22, 2020 4:02 PM

Plus, r450, George would have also had to contend with the make-up.

by Anonymousreply 454December 22, 2020 4:13 PM

Yet when women don’t go through all that rigmarole, they’re the ones who get looked at as odd or weird.

by Anonymousreply 455December 22, 2020 4:15 PM

Huh?

by Anonymousreply 456December 22, 2020 4:23 PM

It was like when Cynthia Erivo did her color purple number as Celie with a faceful of glam.

by Anonymousreply 457December 22, 2020 4:24 PM

[quote]John Barrowman is bidialectical.

[quote]Ditto Gillian Anderson.

I call bullshit on Gillian's supposed bidialectalism. Her family was from the Midwest and relocated to the UK when she was a baby due to her father's job. They moved back to the US when she was around 10. Then she grew up and lived in the US (and Canada during the early seasons of X-FILES). She never used to switch to a British accent when she promoted X-FILES in the UK in the '90s. All of that started happening after she went back to the UK permanently once the show ended in 2002, when she was in her mid-thirties. In short, it's a put-on IMO.

At least Barrowman is actually Scottish who moved to the US with his family when he was 8 and grew up with that accent at home.

by Anonymousreply 458December 22, 2020 4:58 PM

Watching now. I'd forgotten this was on Claude Akins' resume....

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by Anonymousreply 459December 22, 2020 5:29 PM

"I'll Still Be Here" - W.C. 1971 Bernadette Peters, Pre Broadway

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by Anonymousreply 460December 22, 2020 5:33 PM

Re La Cage: The producers and the creatives all desperately wanted Robert Preston as George, both for his talent and his box office value. Jerry Herman wrote most of the songs with him in mind. But Preston turned it down and refused to change his mind, despite much begging. . He'd recently been a big hit as Toddy in the film of Victor/Victoria, and although he had no problem playing gay when many straight stars wouldn't, he didn't want to get stereotyped as the go to guy to play a big cuddly ol' mo.

He turned down the stage version of V/V, partly for the same reasons but also because he had the same attitude of Rosalind Russell when she was offered the musical version of Auntie Mame: been there, done that. According to Life magazine, Roz told the Mame producers "I don't eat yesterday's stew."

R459, Sunday I saw Claude Akins play a mastermind gangster who operates a stolen submarine on the original Adventures of Superman with George Reeves. Stupid as it sounds but fun!

by Anonymousreply 461December 22, 2020 5:40 PM

It’s a shame Rock Hudson never stepped in as Georges. I saw Van Johnson and he was embarrassingly bad.

by Anonymousreply 462December 22, 2020 5:44 PM

R462, Hudson could sing passably well. He lead the national tour of On the 20th Century.

by Anonymousreply 463December 22, 2020 5:52 PM

And in a shout-out to Miss Paula Wayne...

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by Anonymousreply 464December 22, 2020 5:57 PM

Did I miss the original reference to Claude Akins? Did Kristin thank him in her Tony acceptance speech?

by Anonymousreply 465December 22, 2020 5:58 PM

Who played Bo in that musical of Bus Stop? And why didn't he get top billing, too?

by Anonymousreply 466December 22, 2020 5:59 PM

Recently streamed weird Rosemary Clooney musical "Red Garters" on Amazon Prime. Strange sets, I guess deliberately meant to be artificial. Cass Daley in red-face as a native American. Even the reliably good Jack Carson not shown to best advantage. Clooney sounds fine in her songs. Reason I'm mentioning it is that Gene Barry, playing a Latin character, is very hot and handsome with his hairy chest on display whenever he is on screen. He's quite good, too, though I don't think he sang in it. It's kind of a bizarre musical, and I think it flopped.

by Anonymousreply 467December 22, 2020 6:02 PM

I'd have gone to see "Cherry" if Carol Wayne was starring in it!

by Anonymousreply 468December 22, 2020 6:04 PM

By then Carol Wayne's cherry was long gone.

by Anonymousreply 469December 22, 2020 6:07 PM

Yes, the visuals of Red Garters are deliberately highly stylized and it flopped. But parts of it, esp. Clooney and the rest of the cast, are great and it really has its moments. It's cult film worth checking out if you the chance.

Hudson would have been a great choice for Georges and would have done it well. But it was too late. When he appeared on Dynasty in the mid 80s as Linda Evans' lover, his physical appearance was so wasted people were shocked to the point that the producers ended the story arc and wrote him out early.

by Anonymousreply 470December 22, 2020 6:13 PM

Carol Wayne was murdered.

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by Anonymousreply 471December 22, 2020 6:15 PM

Red Garters

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by Anonymousreply 472December 22, 2020 6:53 PM

[quote]What is this man's problem with the song stealing?

ALW definitely has a problem with that in the sense that he keeps doing it, and it's very embarrassing, because people keep calling him out for it. But he DOESN'T have a problem in the sense that the one time someone sued him for doing this, the lawsuit was unsuccessful, and I'm pretty sure no one else has tried to sue him for plagiarism since then.

I'm not entirely sure whether ALW borrows (or steals) melodies consciously or unconsciously, but if consciously, I think he's smart enough to only steal/borrow a measure or so in each case, and that's not enough that anyone could win a case against him in court. The most blatant recent example I know of is that beautiful little melody from "Someone Else's Story" in CHESS, which ALW borrowed or stole for SCHOOL OF ROCK. It's also one of the more shameless examples, because I think it's fair to assume that many people among the audience for SCHOOL OF ROCK would also know the score of CHESS pretty well.

by Anonymousreply 473December 22, 2020 7:08 PM

How about when he stole the entire song "English Girls" from Song and Dance and used it as "Tyre Tracks and Broken Hearts" in Whistle Down the Wind"??? Or when "Literary Men" from Jeeves magically became "When You Want To Fall In Love" in Song and Dance -and then later became "Unexpected Song" in the same show?

The man has cojones!

by Anonymousreply 474December 22, 2020 7:14 PM

*

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by Anonymousreply 475December 22, 2020 7:17 PM

Well, R474, ALW's recycling of his own melodies is another matter. Sometimes I think that, when you add up all the melodies and songs of his own that he has recycled PLUS those who has borrowed (or stolen) from others, he has actually written very few original melodies. (See the "Honest Obituary" video that someone posted above.)

by Anonymousreply 476December 22, 2020 7:24 PM

Bloody brilliant video, R475! Reminds me of an act I used to do at the piano where I'd play and sing the recycled bits from ALW songs!

by Anonymousreply 477December 22, 2020 7:37 PM

[quote] ALW definitely has a problem with that in the sense that he keeps doing it, and it's very embarrassing, because people keep calling him out for it. But he DOESN'T have a problem in the sense that the one time someone sued him for doing this, the lawsuit was unsuccessful, and I'm pretty sure no one else has tried to sue him for plagiarism since then.

R473, what suit was that and who was the plaintiff and what works were in question? I was under the impression he has been sued multiple times and he always settles out of court rather than being found guilty. I may easily be wrong about the multiple times but he was famously sued by the Puccini estate for blatantly lifting passages from The Girl of the Golden West which were still still under copyright and using them in Phantom. In their court filings the estate said they had overlooked many prior instances of plagiarism but in this case it was such egregious copying that it could no longer be ignored. He settled out of court rather than being found guilty. The case is so well known it's talked about in his WP page.

by Anonymousreply 478December 22, 2020 7:52 PM

MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS Broadway 1989

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by Anonymousreply 479December 22, 2020 7:55 PM

[quote]Never understood why they set Kinky Boots in the UK when it was created by Americans for a Broadway audience.

Andrew Lloyd Webber reset Whistle Down The Wind. The movie was set in the UK. I think he reset it in the American South because he always liked the Everly Brothers and wanted to work with that sound. Plus American audiences understood how religious the South was.

by Anonymousreply 480December 22, 2020 8:34 PM

Was Paula Wayne the poor man's Paula Stewart?

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by Anonymousreply 481December 22, 2020 8:37 PM

Those two Cinderella songs are bland and predictable, but most of "School of Rock" was also, so he always gets away with it.

by Anonymousreply 482December 22, 2020 9:02 PM

[quote] Andrew Lloyd Webber reset Whistle Down The Wind. The movie was set in the UK. I think he reset it in the American South because he always liked the Everly Brothers and wanted to work with that sound. Plus American audiences understood how religious the South was.

I believe the actual history goes something like this: Another team of writers had previously obtained the rights to the "Whistle Down the Wind" novel/film and written their own musical "Whistle Down the Wind," set, like the source material, in the UK. Their version was, I believe, presented at a musical theater festival.

When Lloyd Webber and/or Jim Steinman became interested in the material, they made a deal with the writers of that other "Whistle Down the Wind" musical, and I believe that deal involved setting the Lloyd Webber/Steinman version in the U.S. South so that the other version could still be performed. And I believe that other version has been performed subsequently.

As we now know, the Lloyd Webber-Steinman-Harold Prince version began performances in Washington, D.C. in late 1996 and had been scheduled to open at Broadway's Martin Beck Theatre in April '97. Hard to believe that an Andrew Lloyd Webber-Harold Prince show could close out of town, but that's what happened. Lloyd Webber and Steinman resuscitated the show in a wholly different London production that opened in 1998 and closed in 2001.

by Anonymousreply 483December 22, 2020 9:03 PM

It was a very stupid decision not to set "The Fully Monty" in Sheffield and do the show in the UK first. The show probably would have run there. They could have retooled for the US later.

by Anonymousreply 484December 22, 2020 9:16 PM

There's such a long history of setting adaptations of earlier works to different times and places it's barely worth talking about. R&H reset Molnar's Liliom from Eastern Europe to New England after seriously considering Louisiana (Carousel). My Darlin' Aida reset Verdi's Aida from Ancient Egypt to the South of The Civil War. Etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. Think of Shakespeare productions and adaptions. Forbidden Planet reset The Tempest from a desert island to Mars!

by Anonymousreply 485December 22, 2020 9:18 PM

Mars, R485? Really? Write us back after you've had your nap...

And My Darlin' Aida was a legendary flop -Hardly something to emulate.

by Anonymousreply 486December 22, 2020 9:22 PM

OK, Altair IV. And what does the fact that MDA was a flop have to do with the subject of switching time and locales?

by Anonymousreply 487December 22, 2020 9:26 PM

The entire creative team of THE FULL MONTY was American, creating a show on Bway for Bway audiences.

I think their big mistake was overestimating the popularity of (and affection for) the original (English) movie among American audiences, then creating a rather timid display of male bodies. Much like the film that inspired KINKY BOOTS, it was entertaining in parts but pretty slim stuff. MONTY made good money in America for a little film, but it was hardly a blockbuster.

I think Bway producers are often as bad as Hollywood producers in thinking British properties are just "classier" and more intelligent by nature.

by Anonymousreply 488December 22, 2020 9:28 PM

R486 must think Carousel was a flop because it switched the time and place from 20th century Hungary to 19th century New England.

by Anonymousreply 489December 22, 2020 9:32 PM

R486 must think Carousel was a flop because it switched the time and place from 20th century Hungary to 19th century New England.

by Anonymousreply 490December 22, 2020 9:32 PM

You couldn't get a ticket to The Full Monty on Broadway for love nor money, and it was favored to sweep the Tony Awards until the juggernaut of The Producers arrived.

by Anonymousreply 491December 22, 2020 9:33 PM

MONTY lasted about 2 years. Anyone know if it ever turned a profit?

by Anonymousreply 492December 22, 2020 9:35 PM

r458 How about Christian Bale?

by Anonymousreply 493December 22, 2020 9:37 PM

Full Monty turned a profit during its first year on Broadway, according to Playbill.

by Anonymousreply 494December 22, 2020 9:43 PM

When I was in the upper reaches of the Winter Garden, and that ALW "original" song was being performed, I swear I remember yelling out, "That's from CHESS"!

by Anonymousreply 495December 22, 2020 9:56 PM

The video of the 1999 "Kiss Me, Kate" with Brent Barrett and Rachel York, is new on Hoopla (free streaming service) this month.

by Anonymousreply 496December 22, 2020 10:43 PM

R478, thanks. Over the years, I have read and heard conflicting information as to whether or not ALW was ever actually sued by the Puccini estate, so it's interesting that the info is now included on his Wikipedia page. The lawsuit I was referring to, which actually came to court in NYC, happened years ago when a composer of religious music named Ray Repp sued ALW for appropriating parts of one of his songs for use in the title song of THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA. Lo and behold, I found Repp's song on YouTube, so you can make your own judgment. My personal opinion is that, although the ALW version is REALLY close to this, the similarity isn't as blatant as in some other alleged borrowings or thefts by ALW.

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by Anonymousreply 497December 22, 2020 10:59 PM

I'm suddenly seeing all the linked photos and videos in my feed encased in a charming green outline like an old TV set! Is this true for anyone else here?

by Anonymousreply 498December 22, 2020 11:39 PM

Yes, r498. I think it's a Christmas gift from Muriel...or something. Here's the thread...

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by Anonymousreply 499December 22, 2020 11:58 PM

Just watched the Kaye Ballard documentary on Prime. It's a lot of fun and Kaye is quite charming, honest and funny. She really worked with or became close to just about everybody in 20th century show biz and all of the clips provide wonderful nostalgia, at least for those of us over 50.

She was clearly one of the most generous and giving people in the business and a great fan of talent. Again and again, there was a property that she introduced, a song or an idea for a show, that became far more famous through another performer and she always praises them. But sadly, even though dozens of former colleagues from Woody Allen to Hal Prince to Michael Feinstein to Joy Behar rave about her singular talents, the many clips never quite reveal much more than a loud brassy singing voice and hammy sense of comedy schtick. I want to like her so much more...

by Anonymousreply 500December 23, 2020 2:11 AM

Look, Ma, it’s my beef curtains!

by Anonymousreply 501December 23, 2020 2:38 AM

Kaye

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by Anonymousreply 502December 23, 2020 3:00 AM

[quote]She was clearly one of the most generous and giving people in the business and a great fan of talent. Again and again, there was a property that she introduced, a song or an idea for a show, that became far more famous through another performer and she always praises them.

But, on many other occasions, she was very vocal in her extreme bitterness about lost opportunities, not becoming a bigger star, etc.

[quote]But sadly, even though dozens of former colleagues from Woody Allen to Hal Prince to Michael Feinstein to Joy Behar rave about her singular talents, the many clips never quite reveal much more than a loud brassy singing voice and hammy sense of comedy schtick. I want to like her so much more...

Her talent was made for the stage. She could also be good in film and TV when carefully cast, as in CINDERELLA, THE MOTHERS IN LAW, and a few other things.

by Anonymousreply 503December 23, 2020 3:53 AM

[quote] He turned down the stage version of V/V, partly for the same reasons but also because he had the same attitude of Rosalind Russell when she was offered the musical version of Auntie Mame: been there, done that. According to Life magazine, Roz told the Mame producers "I don't eat yesterday's stew."

Robert Preston died 8 years before V/V hit the stage and was ill with lung cancer about a year prior to that.

by Anonymousreply 504December 23, 2020 5:53 AM

[quote] He turned down the stage version of V/V, partly for the same reasons but also because he had the same attitude of Rosalind Russell when she was offered the musical version of Auntie Mame: been there, done that. According to Life magazine, Roz told the Mame producers "I don't eat yesterday's stew."

There are many oft-repeated Broadway diva "quotes" that no one can actually prove were ever said. Who can say if the great Merman actually said any of those witty remarks constantly attributed to her: "Call me Miss Birdseye.....," "You can't buck a nun," "Mary Martin's okay if you like talent," "Dyke, ya know."

In the case of the above oft-repeated Roz Russell quote, I do have a bit of proof. A close friend was close friend's with one of the three authors of the musical "Mame." When that author was asked about offering the musical to Roz, he said, "No, of course we didn't. She would have said yes!"

by Anonymousreply 505December 23, 2020 6:24 AM

A stage version of V/V was in development for about a decade or more before it actually happened so it’s possible Preston did turn it down. Lesley Ann Warren was also approached about doing the stage version.

by Anonymousreply 506December 23, 2020 10:42 AM

Very curious that there are so many talking heads in the Kaye Ballard doc who rave about her talents, but who never seemed to have hired her. Did Woody Allen or Hal Prince ever cast her in anything? Seems like she might have made an interesting Mrs. Lovett, for example.

Do you think there was any discrimination because she was a lesbian?

by Anonymousreply 507December 23, 2020 1:13 PM

When Kaye died Lucie Arnaz posted a very loving but blunt tribute on Instagram. She praised Kaye but also pointed out that she wasn’t always easy to love. Anytime I’ve ever seen Kaye interviewed she always come off like a pain in the ass.

by Anonymousreply 508December 23, 2020 1:29 PM

Oh Kaye!

by Anonymousreply 509December 23, 2020 1:36 PM

I wondered about that as well, r507, and yet thought it was interesting that Woody and Hal participated in the documentary. Those were two men who could have provided endless employment opportunities for Kaye.

I saw Kaye live on stage a couple of times. In the show Molly in Boston tryouts where it was as awful as she said it was (and she really was miscast) and then in the Paper Mill Follies, where she was OK if it rather unforgettable singing Broadway Baby.

by Anonymousreply 510December 23, 2020 2:28 PM

I remember reading Kaye's autobiography and then reading Rose Marie's right after. Kaye just came off as bitter about everything (though in the documentary she seems to laugh it all off.) She did not come off well in the book and seemed very petty. On the other hand, Rose Marie comes off as being so appreciative of everything she got in life. (even her one lapse, her jealousy of Mary Tyler Moore for robbing her of what she thought was her leading lady role on the DVD Show, she's very honest about and manages to come to terms with it after the first few seasons.

by Anonymousreply 511December 23, 2020 2:56 PM

Kaye really should have done "Who's that Woman?" at Paper Mill and Ann Miller should have done "Broadway Baby." (though I understand why Ann wouldn't have done such a minor role.).

by Anonymousreply 512December 23, 2020 2:59 PM

[quote]I remember reading Kaye's autobiography and then reading Rose Marie's right after.

Now Rose Marie could have sung a terrific "Broadway Baby".

by Anonymousreply 513December 23, 2020 2:59 PM

Rose Marie thought she should have been the lead in the dvd series? Really?

by Anonymousreply 514December 23, 2020 3:45 PM

Anyone see Kaye's Mama Rose? Seems that some thought it "historic."

by Anonymousreply 515December 23, 2020 3:47 PM

The original focus was supposed to be on Dick, Buddy and Sally, r514. But that changed when it was obvious how wonderful MTM was and it shifted to Rob and Laura's home life.

by Anonymousreply 516December 23, 2020 3:53 PM

I had no idea the composer of Lazy Afternoon wrote The Big Country. Interesting.

by Anonymousreply 517December 23, 2020 4:13 PM

Rebecca Luker thread...

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by Anonymousreply 518December 23, 2020 4:24 PM

Sunset Boulevard In Concert At Home will be streaming throught January 9th.

I’ll be wanking off to Danny Mac’s hot feets in the title song.

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by Anonymousreply 519December 23, 2020 6:22 PM

Broadway's already-dimmed lights are out today with the tragic loss of Rebecca Luker.

by Anonymousreply 520December 23, 2020 6:37 PM

[quote]A stage version of V/V was in development for about a decade or more before it actually happened so it’s possible Preston did turn it down.

Yes, exactly. I clearly remember when preliminary plans for the show were first discussed, and Preston was actually quoted in the press as saying that he thought it was a bad idea.

[quote]In the case of the above oft-repeated Roz Russell quote, I do have a bit of proof. A close friend was close friend's with one of the three authors of the musical "Mame." When that author was asked about offering the musical to Roz, he said, "No, of course we didn't. She would have said yes!"

Seems from all I have read about her that, for all her talents, Russell was not very bright, had terrible taste, was unaware of her own limitations as an actress and singer, and could be extremely difficult, spiteful, and bitter about all sorts of things. I strongly suspect that, if she did make that "yesterday's stew" remark about MAME, it was sour grapes because she was never approached to star in the musical and/or finally realized she could never have handled it but didn't want to come out and admit that. (In fairness, I think her health was already deteriorating badly by the time the musical came around, so that may well have been another factor.)

[quote]I saw Kaye live on stage a couple of times. In the show Molly in Boston tryouts where it was as awful as she said it was (and she really was miscast) and then in the Paper Mill Follies, where she was OK if it rather unforgettable singing Broadway Baby.

I assume you meant to type "forgettable." I agree that Kaye was somewhat under-powered in that show. FWIW, I had heard at the time that, for some reason, she had been asked to tone down her usual comic business for the number, which I think was a mistake.

by Anonymousreply 521December 23, 2020 6:43 PM

[quote]Broadway's already-dimmed lights are out today with the tragic loss of Rebecca Luker.

One of the saddest tragedies of this annus horribilis. May she rest in peace.

by Anonymousreply 522December 23, 2020 6:44 PM

"Seems from all I have read about her that, for all her talents, Russell was not very bright, had terrible taste, was unaware of her own limitations as an actress and singer, and could be extremely difficult, spiteful, and bitter about all sorts of things."

*

Seems you haven't read much at all about her, r521.

by Anonymousreply 523December 23, 2020 6:50 PM

r521 insufferable redux

by Anonymousreply 524December 23, 2020 6:51 PM

For all her refinement and glamour, Rosalind Russell was the rare movie star who really knew how to live. A retired producer recalls the highlights of their long friendship, from the triumph of Auntie Mame to the Vegas blowout Sinatra threw her, to the Christmas when the tree fell down.

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by Anonymousreply 525December 23, 2020 7:00 PM

There is at least one clip of Kaye as Momma Rose in the documentary (not in a production, but doing a number on a variety hour, I believe) and, once again, I watch it and think....meh.

by Anonymousreply 526December 23, 2020 7:11 PM

Right back at you, R523. There is plenty of documentation of Roz's selfishness, foolishness, meanness, and delusion.

Two examples: When it came time to adapt the novel AUNTIE MAME as a stage play, Roz stupidly pressured the writers Lawrence and Lee to change the time period of the story to the then-present (the 1950s) in order to make the story seem "fresh and new," even though a major plot point of the original is that Mame is a fabulously rich woman who loses all of her money i the stock market crash of 1929. (Fortunately, Lawrence and Lee ignored her.) And, in her memoir, Russell completely denies that any of her singing in the GYPSY movie was dubbed, insisting that it was "all Roz, all the time."

I'm not saying she wasn't talented and wasn't a great performer when she stayed in her wheelhouse, I'm saying she seems to have been very selfish and mean and totally self involved, as that nasty "yesterday's stew" comment about MAME further attests. Oh, and P.S., apparently the reason why Edith "Edie" Adams did not appear in the TV version of WONDERFUL TOWN is that, in the time between the stage show and the TV production, she had become quite a big star, and Russell didn't want her stealing her thunder (as she looked at it). Really classy.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you get my point, and if you don't, maybe others do.

by Anonymousreply 527December 23, 2020 7:20 PM

If health wasn't a factor, I can't imagine any producers not wanting Roz for the musical—and I doubt if she had the kind of poisonous reputation insisted upon by r527. Difficult or not, she would have been a HUGE box office lure, unlike Lansbury who was not a star of Roz's stature.

by Anonymousreply 528December 23, 2020 7:24 PM

Wonderful as Roz was in the play and the film, she wouldn't have been able to sing that score in any way that would do it justice. The show might have been a one-season success, but not the megabit that Angela Lansbury headlined. Contrary to the posts above, I've always heard that she was well-liked by her various costars and directors through the years. As for Gypsy, she was led to believe that her vocals would be used, and Lisa Kirk did such a fine job subbing and mixing in with her that I can forgive her later insistence.

by Anonymousreply 529December 23, 2020 7:31 PM

r525, thanks for posting the VF article on Roz. What a glorious woman!

I don't really think any of the negative anecdotes posted here are really so awful even if they're true. If she had to make up a little lie about turning down Mame, was that really so offensive? She was a huge and unique star who understood her value. We'll never see her likes again.

by Anonymousreply 530December 23, 2020 7:32 PM

[quote]If health wasn't a factor, I can't imagine any producers not wanting Roz for the musical—and I doubt if she had the kind of poisonous reputation insisted upon by [R527]. Difficult or not, she would have been a HUGE box office lure, unlike Lansbury who was not a star of Roz's stature.

It's that kind of thinking that resulted in Lucille Ball playing MAME in the movie. What you say is true, but especially by 1966, Roz could NOT have handled singing a leading role in a Broadway musical, even if she had been in perfect health. Not unless Jerry Herman would have been willing to write a score consisting entirely of songs that could be talk-sung by the leading lady, which would have been a disastrous decision for Mame Dennis, a very different type of role than Ruth Sherwood in WONDERFUL TOWN.

by Anonymousreply 531December 23, 2020 7:35 PM

[quote]I remember reading Kaye's autobiography and then reading Rose Marie's right after. Kaye just came off as bitter about everything (though in the documentary she seems to laugh it all off.) She did not come off well in the book and seemed very petty. On the other hand, Rose Marie comes off as being so appreciative of everything she got in life. (even her one lapse, her jealousy of Mary Tyler Moore for robbing her of what she thought was her leading lady role on the DVD Show, she's very honest about and manages to come to terms with it after the first few seasons.

Both ladies were regulars on "The Doris Day Show." How did their experiences match up (or not) in their books?

by Anonymousreply 532December 23, 2020 7:40 PM

Sure, everyone would have turned out to see Roz in "Mame," but they had already seen her in the play and/or the movie.

And even if Roz had been fully capable of singing the score of "Mame," and notwithstanding what a box-office draw she was, it ultimately proved better for the musical to present a brand-new musical star whose performance turned out to be even better than anyone could have imagined.

No one, not even the audiences at the nine performances of "Whistle," had seen Angela carry a big musical, so new Broadway musical comedy diva Angela in "Mame" was a thrilling event.

by Anonymousreply 533December 23, 2020 7:58 PM

[quote]I don't really think any of the negative anecdotes posted here are really so awful even if they're true. If she had to make up a little lie about turning down Mame, was that really so offensive?

Yes, it was offensive because of her phrasing. "Yesterday's stew" is a very dismissive and condescending reference to the musical of MAME, which was about to be created in large party by Lawrence and Lee, with whom Roz had worked on the straight play version. If Roz were a better person, she could have made the same basic point by saying something like, "I'm thrilled to have originated the great role of Mame Dennis on the stage, but now it's time for someone else to play her in the musical, and I send my best wishes to everyone involved in the project." But I don't think she had that in her.

R533, exactly. We'll never know for sure, of course, but If the producers and creators of the musical MAME had been foolish enough to cast Roz, and if she had agreed to do it, it might well have turned out to be almost as big an embarrassment and as huge a blot on her career as the film role turned out to be for Lucy. So, whatever the reason(s) why she didn't play the role in the musical, I REALLY think it was all for the best for everyone concerned, including the audiences.

by Anonymousreply 534December 23, 2020 8:25 PM

I'm a big Roz fan myself but I remember reading that she had two types of parties, one for all the Broadway and Hollywood people and another for the 'dogs' as in her fans.

Kind of like Streisand complaining that the people hanging out at the Winter Garden stage door after performances of Funny Girl were ugly. Why don't good looking people hang out for autographs? Because Babs they have dates.

by Anonymousreply 535December 23, 2020 8:33 PM

r535, if you would read the Vanity Fair article posted at r525, you'd see the "dogs" were not Roz's fans but referred to her drearier and more lackluster chums. She had special parties grouping them together because they'd help bring each other out, rather than bring down the sparkly guests at her other parties. It's a clever idea socially if you can afford all those parties.

by Anonymousreply 536December 23, 2020 9:26 PM

Re Lawrence and Lee and Auntie Mame/Mame, when Roz and the producers settled on a date that she would leave the Broadway show and head straight to Hollywood to film it, she assumed they would be closing the show. The producers and Lawrence and Lee said no, they intended to replace her with an as-yet unchosen star. Roz insisted that they close it, that she really, really wanted to be the only Broadway Auntie Mame. She felt it would help the movie if she had that unique cachet. Lawrence and Lee were furious, not only at the loss of a steady royalty check for them, but at the fact Roz wanted to close the show and was blithely unconcerned about all the other actors and crew she would be putting out of work. Unhappy, Roz got her revenge by insisting that she would drop out of the movie if Comden and Green weren't giving the screenplay assignment that was supposed to be Lawrence and Lee.

There was no love lost there, so I'm not surprised one of them trashed her in the "she would have accepted" comment.

by Anonymousreply 537December 23, 2020 10:54 PM

ThTs some good stuff r537

by Anonymousreply 538December 23, 2020 10:58 PM

*That’s

by Anonymousreply 539December 23, 2020 10:59 PM

Isn't the Comden and Green script the Lawrence and Lee script with just a very few modifications?

She was right about Cher doing the movie. Even though Cher might have been wrong for Mame she still would have been a lot of fun. Even a terribly miscast Streisand would have been immensely enjoyable. Of course you would have had to change the whole Upsons' anti semitic angle but she would have sung the hell out of the score.

by Anonymousreply 540December 23, 2020 11:14 PM

[quote]Re Lawrence and Lee and Auntie Mame/Mame, when Roz and the producers settled on a date that she would leave the Broadway show and head straight to Hollywood to film it, she assumed they would be closing the show. The producers and Lawrence and Lee said no, they intended to replace her with an as-yet unchosen star. Roz insisted that they close it, that she really, really wanted to be the only Broadway Auntie Mame. She felt it would help the movie if she had that unique cachet. Lawrence and Lee were furious, not only at the loss of a steady royalty check for them, but at the fact Roz wanted to close the show and was blithely unconcerned about all the other actors and crew she would be putting out of work. Unhappy, Roz got her revenge by insisting that she would drop out of the movie if Comden and Green weren't giving the screenplay assignment that was supposed to be Lawrence and Lee.

Yes, all of that info is included in Richard Tyler Jordan's book BUT DARLING, I'M YOUR AUNTIE MAME! As is the info about Roz's stupid insistence -- which, thankfully, no one paid attention to -- that the action of the original play should have been updated to the 1950s. Like I said, the fact that she was talented doesn't mean she wasn't also a stupid, bitchy, selfish human being.

by Anonymousreply 541December 23, 2020 11:14 PM

Interesting list here in the link. I found it while searching for Keene Curtis after someone mentioned him upthread. I had a brief moment with Keene back in the 80s and was interested to find out what the Google had to say about him.

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by Anonymousreply 542December 23, 2020 11:16 PM

[quote]Even a terribly miscast Streisand would have been immensely enjoyable. Of course you would have had to change the whole Upsons' anti semitic angle but she would have sung the hell out of the score.

That's like saying, "Barbara Cook, who played Fanny Brice on stage, would have been great in the movie of FUNNY GIRL. Of course, they would have had to change Fannie's ethnicity, but she would have sung the hell out of the score."

by Anonymousreply 543December 23, 2020 11:17 PM

We needed a Fanny that...trilled!

by Anonymousreply 544December 23, 2020 11:26 PM

[quote]Isn't the Comden and Green script the Lawrence and Lee script with just a very few modifications?

Yes, because they were smart enough to realize that they should pretty much leave the script alone, because it was pretty much perfect as is. They did add a few good lines, like the one about Vera and Pittsburgh :-)

by Anonymousreply 545December 23, 2020 11:29 PM

r541, I'm confused about this supposed notion of Russell's of moving the action of Auntie Mame up to the 1950s. Clearly, about 20 years go by so did she think it would begin in the 1950s or end in the 1950s (which it seems to do in the film based on the decor and costumes)?

Also, just curious: in the play and film the Stock Market Crash and Depression, of course, are mentioned but is WWII?

by Anonymousreply 546December 24, 2020 12:41 AM

Since that makes absolutely no sense, r546, I would question whether it actually happened.

by Anonymousreply 547December 24, 2020 12:53 AM

The play and film pretty much skip over WWII, but it is most definitely part of the original novel -and its sequel.

by Anonymousreply 548December 24, 2020 1:02 AM

I wonder how Lady Peel was...

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by Anonymousreply 549December 24, 2020 1:31 AM

In this day and age of shows running for 6 or 10 or 20 years it's surprising that the original run of Auntie Mame only had Greer Garson and Bea Lillie step into the role. I would have thought there'd be dozens of former movie divas who would have loved to replace and keep the show running far longer.

by Anonymousreply 550December 24, 2020 2:20 AM

Once the movie got made, r550....

by Anonymousreply 551December 24, 2020 2:22 AM

Bette in Fiddler

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by Anonymousreply 552December 24, 2020 3:06 AM

[quote]I'm confused about this supposed notion of Russell's of moving the action of Auntie Mame up to the 1950s. Clearly, about 20 years go by so did she think it would begin in the 1950s or end in the 1950s (which it seems to do in the film based on the decor and costumes)?

Good question! She probably didn't think it through, but I assume she had it in mind that the first part of the story would take place in the mid '50s and the later parts in the years thereafter, then the near future. I don't think there's a full 20-year span in the story, I think young Patrick is supposed to be about 11 or 12 and adult Patrick is supposed to be college age, so that would be a span of less than 10 years. And yes, then there is the scene at the end with Patrick and Pegeen's son, but that's only one scene, and the boy is supposed to be very little.

Oh, and it's not a "supposed" notion of Russell's that the action of AUNTIE MAME should be moved up to what was then the present day, the mid-1950s. This is well documented, as I noted above.

by Anonymousreply 553December 24, 2020 4:44 AM

Wow I know Sally Bowles is supposed to be a mediocre singer but Jill Haworth hits some pretty bum notes in that clip at R552. That Fiddler excerpt is pretty dire, too.

by Anonymousreply 554December 24, 2020 8:53 AM

oh noooooo not the Sally-Bowles-is-supposed-to-be-a-mediocre-singer debate. It's Christmas Eve!

by Anonymousreply 555December 24, 2020 12:42 PM

Yes! We should be talking about Follies!

by Anonymousreply 556December 24, 2020 12:50 PM

Didn't Sylvia Sidney play MAME somewhere?

As for Bea Lillie, this is one of the performances I'd give anything to have seen. Someone told me that she basically used young Patrick as a prop.

by Anonymousreply 557December 24, 2020 1:10 PM

I believe Sylvia Sidney played AUNTIE MAME, if that's what you mean :-)

by Anonymousreply 558December 24, 2020 3:12 PM

Sylvia...

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by Anonymousreply 559December 24, 2020 4:26 PM

And Sylvia...

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by Anonymousreply 560December 24, 2020 4:27 PM

Yes, r558, I did. Trying for shorthand won't go unnoticed by this board! :)

by Anonymousreply 561December 24, 2020 5:54 PM

Re Sylvia at R560: Now we know what Bette Davis would have looked like had she played Auntie Mame back in the '50s.

by Anonymousreply 562December 24, 2020 6:15 PM

How puff-puff VIVID!

by Anonymousreply 563December 24, 2020 7:46 PM

An exuberant Julie...

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by Anonymousreply 564December 24, 2020 7:46 PM

Speaking of Miss Kaye Ballard...

*

ROYAL FLUSH

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by Anonymousreply 565December 24, 2020 10:21 PM

I imagine one could stage a revival of Molly behind Kaye's beef curtains.

by Anonymousreply 566December 24, 2020 11:38 PM

Is that your...version...of wit, 566?

by Anonymousreply 567December 24, 2020 11:43 PM

[quote]Trying for shorthand won't go unnoticed by this board! :)

Well, it didn't work in this case, as there is a separate show called MAME, and since you used all caps, it looked like you were referring to that one.

by Anonymousreply 568December 25, 2020 12:06 AM

Rosiland Russell was cruel to Mia Farrow during the Sinatra marriage. Farrow could never figure out why Sinatra was hanging out with people 20 years older than him, particularly Russell.

by Anonymousreply 569December 25, 2020 2:05 AM

Well, Roz was on to Mia and in the end, Frank was grateful.

by Anonymousreply 570December 25, 2020 2:11 AM

Roz was 8 years older than Frank and he was 30 years older than Mia.

by Anonymousreply 571December 25, 2020 3:02 AM

Merry Christmas, Bitches.

The Dangerous Christmas Of Red Riding Hood.

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by Anonymousreply 572December 25, 2020 3:34 AM

For those of you who don't have a lot of time right now, here's the must-see number from "The Dangerous Christmas of Red Riding Hood." Liza seems really quite insane. Co-starring Cyril Ritchard . . . wearing a dress. This show originally aired in 1965.

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by Anonymousreply 573December 25, 2020 4:38 AM

Did Dame Julie ever see Kaye’s beef curtains?

by Anonymousreply 574December 25, 2020 5:30 AM

Couple of great Styne/Merrill songs in Red Riding Hood. Ritchard has never been campier. Hard to believe he was straight.

by Anonymousreply 575December 25, 2020 1:35 PM

Hard to believe you believe he was straight. Anyway....

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by Anonymousreply 576December 25, 2020 2:07 PM

This must have been the absolute nadir of Helen Gallagher's career.

by Anonymousreply 577December 25, 2020 5:07 PM

I think she enjoyed doing it, r577. She said that, as a dancer, it was great to play a role where she was always pulling her stockings down instead of up.

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by Anonymousreply 578December 25, 2020 5:12 PM

[quote]Couple of great Styne/Merrill songs in Red Riding Hood.

Jule Styne and Bob Merrill wrote even better songs three years earlier for "Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol," in 1962. I think it was pretty much the first of the animated TV Christmas specials that proliferated for years to come.

by Anonymousreply 579December 25, 2020 5:29 PM

Helen...

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by Anonymousreply 580December 25, 2020 5:41 PM

Tony Awards '73 - Dance medley with Gwen Verdon, Donna Mc Kechnie, Paula Kelly, Helen Gallagher

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by Anonymousreply 581December 25, 2020 6:44 PM

Ellen Greene in TPOS...

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by Anonymousreply 582December 26, 2020 12:22 AM

I'd like to send special Season's Greetings to Valens for all his great work for us in 2020.

Mwah!

by Anonymousreply 583December 26, 2020 12:33 AM

Valens got me through the early part of the pandemic. CHEERS!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 584December 26, 2020 1:33 AM

Damn. Ellen Greene sounds GREAT in that song from TPOS. For years, the only thing I had ever seen or heard her in was LITTLE SHOP, but the video clips and audio recordings of other performances that I've seen since then have only increased my admiration for her talent.

by Anonymousreply 585December 26, 2020 3:50 AM

More Ellen Greene

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by Anonymousreply 586December 26, 2020 3:57 AM

THANKS!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 587December 26, 2020 3:58 AM

R583 r584 Kisses.

by Anonymousreply 588December 26, 2020 5:57 AM

I randomly watched the Stars in the House reunion for the Pippin revival tonight. Matthew James Thomas was an adorable twunk in the title role, but, DAMN, he's gotten THIC. He knew exactly what he was doing when he chose that short sleeve shirt. (See 5:30 into the video.)

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by Anonymousreply 589December 26, 2020 6:12 AM

R581 - they were all fabulous, but I couldn't take my eyes off of Gwen. The video quality is so bad that, at times, you can barely make out their faces, but I instantly knew who Gwen was just by her movement -- so precise, every muscle. Fabulous.

by Anonymousreply 590December 26, 2020 6:58 AM

god, is seth still beating that stars in the house thing to death? Who cares? Reunite the cast of Rachael Lily Rosenbloom, you big nosed meeskite, and then maybe I'll tune in.

by Anonymousreply 591December 26, 2020 8:34 AM

Chiming in with huzzahs for Valens. His theatre and Rock Follies saved my sanity when I had Covid in the spring.

by Anonymousreply 592December 26, 2020 2:07 PM

I felt the same way about Paula, r590. That may have been due to her height.

by Anonymousreply 593December 26, 2020 2:19 PM

Vintage Babs

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by Anonymousreply 594December 26, 2020 4:23 PM

BAJOUR!?

by Anonymousreply 595December 26, 2020 5:17 PM

New thread STAT

by Anonymousreply 596December 26, 2020 5:43 PM

Yes, please!

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by Anonymousreply 597December 26, 2020 5:45 PM

WHOOP-UP!

by Anonymousreply 598December 26, 2020 5:48 PM

Theatre Gossip #409: Casting Couch Edition

Discuss.

by Anonymousreply 599December 26, 2020 6:01 PM

Bajour.

by Anonymousreply 600December 26, 2020 6:03 PM

No, I get to Bajour, r600. Also I will link your new thread with that non-creative title, since you were too lazy to do it. But....you *did* start it, so I will grit my teeth and give you thanks...

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by Anonymousreply 601December 26, 2020 6:11 PM
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