GAME OF THRONES, 4/28/19, episode 8.3

OP why has your post been "crossed out?" There's a line through it. Both this one and the one with the incorrect date.

OP your post has been crossed out.

The thread with the Brazilian model has been crossed out as well minutes after it was made. Someone's on a bit of a rampage again, I think.

Finally. This episode has been hyped so much- I'm ready! This will probably hurt!

I'll miss Jorah (I 100% believe he's going to be the big death)

I'm worried about Sansa. Think about it. Her story is complete. She is the Lady of Winterfell. I don't believe her hugging Theon meant anything more than that she and Theon had shared so much and survived. He saved her life, first killing Miranda, then getting her out of Ramsey Bolton's clutches. So if Theon is marked for death, defending Bran, then Sansa might be too. Especially if Winterfell is destroyed by the WW. Of course they can rebuild Winterfell and she could be named Warden of the North. But I think there is also an equal chance of her getting killed off tonight.

Grey Worm might be marked for death too. Faceit. He has no dick. He can't help re populate the world after the war. I think everyone with a dick should survive. So that means Podrick lives. In fact, I hope Podrick kills Bronn.

Hmm, should we start a new one since this has been FF'ed for some reason?

I made one

Great- now there's three

Well let's just use this one because it's too hard to keep up with all three and this one was set up when the OP realized his other one had the wrong date.

I can't believe we're hours away from the greatest battle in TV history and we can't settle on a thread. Trust DL to fuck up a historic occasion. It's the Academy Awards 2018 all over again.

I hope the Night King kills both Sansa and Moonlight.

Who the hell is Moonlight?

Memory

All alone in the Moonlight

See R11, R13.

Thanks, r15. It's so obvious now.

Bump

Are you bitches all at viewing parties or in some undisclosed secret thread I'm not aware of?

I’m going to see if anyone is live tweeting. If not I’m coming back here to hang with you bitches. It’s on!

Fantastic!

Well, this isn't going well!

She couldn't move out there a little quicker?!

So my cable remote stopped working at 8pm.........I couldn’t change the channel.

Took 45 minutes, but I was finally able to change the channel.

Oh hell.....there goes Lyanna

Lyanna Mormont!

Well, what's going on?

Twitter is 90% in Spanish

Ed’d, Lyanna, wights

Dothraki — wights

Dead in the crypts — wights

I don’t have HBO so I’m counting on you bitches (and Twitter).

Jesus, it's a slaughter!

Very few main characters down though.

Only Lyanna Mormont so far.

Theon done now.

ARYA JUST KILLED THE NIGHT KING!!!!!!!!

Arya saved the world. She is Azor Ahai

I was expecting more main characters to die and feel slightly disappointed.

Ser Jorah is out now. Drogon made it!

Couldn’t Melisandre stay alive long enough to bring back Jorah?

That was cunty of Melisandre not to do some good resurrection deeds

Known dead

Jorah

Melisandre

Theon

Lyanna

Edd

The flaming sword guy Beric

Night King

All sights, including eight dragon

Wights, not sights or eights

From what I can gather from twitter (I'm not live watching) it was a bloody battle, Lyanna went out heroically as did Theon who was protecting someone - ? Dany rode in on her dragon to torch the Night King, only he walked out of the wall of fire smiling and she fled (does this confirm he's a Targ?). At the very last minute, Arya came flying in and killed the NK somehow. She is the Azar Ahoi (the Promised Prince or whatever).

Three eps left though. Cersei awaits at Nights Landing.

I’m not sure if Sam and Tormund were killed

Fuck. I need a drink. That was ridiculously intense.

I believe Ser Jonah might be gone too. Who's watching live?

R41 I'm guessing the other dragon died? The one Jon rode? I could barely see the episode.

The GOT writers must have really liked the last season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Quote]From what I can gather from twitter (I'm not live watching) it was a bloody battle,

Not really, not many main characters were lost.

Everyone online is complaining how fucking dark this ep was shot - it was nearly unviewable, you couldn't see anything. Maybe that was on purpose - ? So as to make everyone tune in next week to get confirmation re who bit the dust and who didn't.

What the actual fuck was that?!?! I cant even tell aside from Jorah and Arya who's dead now.

There were some great moments like Lyanna killing the giant. But WTF?! Cersei is harder to kill than the bloody knight king!

Tormund and Sam lived. So did Jaime, Brienne, Pod, and the Hound.

The moment hiding in the crypts btw Sansa and Tyrion was nice.

[quote]From what I can gather from twitter (I'm not live watching) it was a bloody battle, Lyanna went out heroically as did Theon who was protecting someone - ? Dany rode in on her dragon to torch the Night King, only he walked out of the wall of fire smiling and she fled (does this confirm he's a Targ?). At the very last minute, Arya came flying in and killed the NK somehow. She is the Azar Ahoi (the Promised Prince or whatever).

Lyanna, Jorah, Beric and Theon all went out heroically. Arya came in with the 11th hour save. I hate Bran so much! He's useless.

For all the impressive battles, the greatest moments were the smallest. Tyrion kissing Sansa's hand, Arya and the Red Woman, Davos watching the Red Woman walk away, Bran thanking Theon. That last one made me cry.

This was a pretty underwhelming affair honestly. Too bad. Everyone was hyping this so much but they couldn't live up to it.

I don't know why they wait until the episode ends before releasing the title but tonight's episode is "The Long Night".

How exactly did Arya get past all the Night King’s guards? I mean, I’ll glad she did, but how did she do it?

Oh and are two dragons dead now? Too bad it's too late to redesign the lighting but the original line up shots were great.

Its pissing me off that C-fucking section is still the hardest bitch to kill on this show!

[quote]This was a pretty underwhelming affair honestly.

I was pretty impressed honestly.

Cersei made the gamble of the century... and it paid off.

I suspect that won't be the popular opinion r59. I don't think critics are going to love this one.

[quote]There were some great moments like Lyanna killing the giant.

Just so you know how poor my picture was, I thought it was Arya who killed the giant.

[quote]How exactly did Arya get past all the Night King’s guards? I mean, I’ll glad she did, but how did she do it?

To get to him or to get out of Winterfell's hold to Bran. Because Theon killed all of the Night King's guards who were at the weirwood tree. I don't know how she cleared the castle area but she did and she saved everyone. That's enough for me after all the losses that occurred.

R57 Kinda looked like a double layout half, lightingwasnt ideal. Didn't she get stabbed in the process though?

Theon didnt kill them all r63. There was a ton of wights around in a circle and a whole cadre of White Walkers.

Arya had to have sneaked past a lot of bad guys to make it to him and Bran.

Are we sure that two dragons are now dead? Well, I guess one already was.

Drogon is not dead, the last we saw he successfully took flight.

[57] She is faceless.

[Quote]Everyone online is complaining how fucking dark this ep was shot - it was nearly unviewable, you couldn't see anything

Yes this episode was very dark and hard to see what was going on.

[quote]The thread with the Brazilian model has been crossed out as well minutes after it was made. Someone's on a bit of a rampage again, I think.

My posting privileges are suspended. No idea why. (Using another browser.)

So, it seems Melisandre returned to be the Arya whisperer. “Not tonight?”

I guess Melisandre also died - ? can anyone confirm.

[quote]Are we sure that two dragons are now dead? Well, I guess one already was.

That part was especially hard to follow.

[quote] guess Melisandre also died - ? can anyone confirm.

Yes.

So if the NK is now gone, who's the evil baddie to be fought in the final episodes? Cersei? Infighting amongst the remaining human characters?

Melisandre committed suicide by taking off her magic necklace.

The writers better have something good planned for Bran. He has to have a point. I assumed he would be vital in the destruction of the Night King but he did literally nothing

[Quote]Cersei? Infighting amongst the remaining human characters

Yep. Now it just goes back to human politics and fighting.

R66 The one Jon was riding was fighting with the dead one and fell to the ground, throwing Jon off. I think it died. It might have killed the one that was already dead in the process, though, and rose when the Night King rose his army. I think that's why Jon was yelling at it to stop, since he did have a connection to it, but I could be completely wrong as I couldn't see anything.

He gave Arya that dagger she used in an earlier episode. He has that weird third sight thing going on. He is in a wheelchair so can't exactly get around.

Bran lured the Night King to his death, but yeah, other than that, useless.

Okay. So given how predictable that went, I suppose we can be sure that The Hound will kill the Mountain and Jaime will kill Cersei.

I'd say you are right r82. There were so many complicated theories surrounding the Night King, but the it ended up being far simpler and straight forward than a lot of people wanted to believe.

There are two dragons in the preview for next week.

Theon, Jorah, Melisandre, Beric, Grey Worm and Arya did the most this episode. Arya was kicking all kinds of ass even before she killed the NK.

Arya has to kill someone with green eyes. Isn't Cersei green-eyed? I think she'll steal someone's face (Jamie?) to get close to Cersei and kill her. That will satisfy both prophecies.

It would be a lot more in character for Jamie to fail killing Cersei and her to just cut his throat and move on. She is the real ice queen.

R83 I’m not sure it can be that simple. Maybe. But if so...that was just so...simple. That’s it? After eons of the Night King looming, he’s gone forever now? Too simple.

Denial is the first stage if acceptance r86.

After all the hype from the first minutes of the pilot, the White Walker threat ends with what I'd call a whimpber.

Arya killing Cersei using Jaime’s face would be absolute trash. I really hope they don’t do it. Arya had her victory tonight, no need for anything more.

[quote]Arya has to kill someone with green eyes. Isn't Cersei green-eyed?

I think she's already killed someone with green eyes. The last color Melisandre said was blue eyes/ The Night King. I think she completed what she needed to do.

Well it is the end of the series r86. He had to be dispatched at some point in the coming 3 episodes. They just got him out of the way early, so the remaining eps will be about the survivors fighting among themselves for power and the throne (it is called "Game of Thrones").

The remaining eps will be about political maneuvering and drama. Everyone vs. Cersei it seems.

And, I imagine, Jon Vs Dany.

Melisandre is such a DLer - theatrics coming out of her ass, even in her final seconds.

How many times can we see a main character get surrounded by a hoard of zombies and have their death teased, but wait, they are fine. There was some powerful character shield going on this episode.

And yes it was hard to see what was even happening a lot of time.

I like Cersei. Everything has always been against her. She has no magical powers or pets. She’s always been told she’s the dumb one in the family. She even has that nasty prophecy hanging over her head. Has she let that stop her? No.

I hope she gets a great death scene.

I lurve Melisandre!

R94 I loathe Cersei but she is still my favorite character. She may become the Night Queen yet.

Either Cersei or Dany will become the new Night Queen. That's why they got the current NK out of the way so early.

Disappointing?!?! Bitch, if you thought that episode was disappointing, you are just a psycho who should give up watching anything as you will never be satisfied.

Winter is over, it's onto King's Landing to deal with Cersei.

Agree R98. It’s still a TV show, after all. The writers are not going for shocking deaths anymore; they are allowing characters to live out their fates and to become fuller before their lives end now. That’s the story they’re telling. It was still riveting horror.

Amazing, but horrifying for a while when things got really bad.

And there are still three episodes to go. Others will still die.

How will they fight Cersei? One dragon's left, right? Okay, that huge, but they don't have any more soldiers really, do they?

How did one of the two remaining live dragons die again? Was it the one who was being stabbed innumerable times by the wights clinging tick-like to it? Or wasn't the other torn-up by Visereon? Or were they the same dragon, who we saw at the end with Daenerys when she was crying?

Even if Cerseis gamble paid off, wouldn't it spread out to all the living houses that she basically said 'to hell with them'. Id imagine loyalty to her should be non existent. I find myself more confused at this ending more so than others because it felt too dark, muddled and easy, and to see Jaime and Brienne alive makes me think Bronn is about to be around the corner. I was hoping he'd double deal Cersei as that's his character.

I can see Tyrion turning more towards Sansa each episode. Kinda hoping that pans out. (Not a spoiler just conjecture).

It was disappointing to me because I couldn’t understand/see what was happening. Looked amazing at first, when the torches lit up, but it devolved into a dark and confusing mess. I’d be surprised if that’s not the critical consensus.

Best parts of the episode were not the big battle.

I wasn’t surprised we didn’t have more big character deaths. People are really invested in who we have left. I am just shocked (in a good way) that Jamie and Browne are alive.

Winterfell was obliterated by the ice dragon tantrum. So many corpses need to be dragged away and burned.

I have always thought zombies were stupid but I lost my shit when they got into the crypt and were hunting Arya. I wondered if they were going to kill everyone in Winterfell for a few minutes.

That was a muddled, disappointing mess overall, with a couple of good moments. That was the winter coming that has literally been touted for over a decade? Pffftttt.

It needed a much better director. The first 40 minutes was unwatchable, and that’s a general consensus pretty much everywhere.

No one of consequence died. Lame. The show is going to come under a lot of criticism over the next couple of days, deservedly. They (and most likely GRRM) wussed our BIG TIME. It was all very fantasy by the numbers. Lord of the Rings did this a whole lot better. Honestly, I didn’t expect much more than what I saw.

Sad!

Re Arya killing someone with green eyes, in the books Cersei has green eyes but I can't imagine her killing Cersei given she killed the Night King.

Both of the “good” dragons are still alive. Only the ice dragon is dead. They’re in next week’s preview.

The takes are going to be interesting. Last week everyone was saying "Game of Thrones" was finally back to classic form, but this was a Season 7 episode.

Terrific episode. I streamed in 4L and it all looked great.

Exactly what did you bitches who are moaning and bad-mouthing it think was GOING to happen?

I'm disappointed with the denoument. I was really hoping they wouldn't pull the cheesy old "Kill the head vampire and the army of the undead vanishes", but they did. For the millionth time.

I was really hoping for something a bit more original, or an extension of the war between the living and the dead. Now all there's just a hundred thousand corpses to shovel out of the way before spring.

Not just a bunch of c list characters dying R112.

Pitiful body count. Almost nobody important died.

Fuck you R113. I bet you like Gossip Girl don’t you? You’re obviously a little pussy.

The critics knives are already coming out on Twitter. Tomorrow is not going to be pretty for HBO and the show runners.

R113 is exactly right.

Trying to think of how to articulate my thoughts on this being the end of the Night King plotline...

Reviews are already coming out, and they are brutal. Every single one mentions how dark it was, and all are bemused that everyone is miraculously still alive.

This was not a good episode to air the same weekend as Avengers: Endgame. A lot of the same crowd watching both and one was just shot and produced in a much cheaper fashion and it showed. I also suspected they it was so dark because they wanted to hide cheaper CGI (though $$$ for HBO).

Both Endgame and GOT wimped out on meaningful body counts. My blood lust is not satisfied.

Theon's death hurt me the most. I was expecting it, but still... :(

And Lyanna Mormont is a goddamn legend.

R113, they even talked about killing the Night King as being the only realistic option to win and it does make complete sense. When you are fighting an army numbering more than 100,000 and have a leader who can always raise the dead to make more, it's the only logical way to win. What's your bright idea for what would have made more sense? Sam cries on them all and his tears are like acid?

[quote]and all are bemused that everyone is miraculously still alive.

Part of what this show was able to do in episode 2 is put these characters in a situation where it is literally the night before the apocalypse. We honestly believe as an audience it will be the last time a lot of them get to interact.

But then in this episode, the plot armor was laughably strong. It's less Game of Thrones, and more comic book movie. After a couple death fake outs it quickly became apparent the stakes weren't real.

[quote]Melisandre committed suicide by taking off her magic necklace.

Why, though?

I feel mixed.

On one hand, this was the best 1+ hour of zombie content I've ever seen. By now I almost yawn at zombie invasions because creatives keep wussing out and not depicting the utter terror that a society (or army, or leadership, whatever) would feel at being overwhelmed by the undead. This episode was neigh PERFECT in this regard.

On the other hand, unless there's significant twists coming up, the narrative fucked up big time. Maybe enough to ruin the whole show on prospect of re-watch. There should be more, there must be more than basic Targarian/Stark drama and kill the bad queen, or I'll quickly stop giving a fuck about any visual ASOIAF content in the future.

Very bad directing in regards to character survival. It is NOT a good thing for this 'realistic fantasy' story to have half an hour of several main characters holding their own like high level RPG characters. It finally became comical and I hate that.

There's some intriguing ideas I (and I assume, many) have. Tyrion last episode was hopeless about the upcoming battle but became hopeful after talking with Bran. Tyrion this episode was forced to stay in the crypts but had to remark that if he was on the surface he'd be able to catch something useful. Somehow I think Tyrion is going to piece something together for us that will be huge. There's a trope sometimes of how in the chaos of huge battles, we can find out all more important pieces of the event later on. I wonder if that will be the case here. How did Arya get to the NK? Was Bran ONLY some sort of lame distraction? WTF is the Prince(ess?) that was Promised? How'd Davos and especially Ghost make it? Why the smirk from the NK before MISSING Dany (or did he?)?

Somehow I get images of a lot more necromancy to come, especially with such an already ice-queen of Cersei and the strange science of Qybern.

And even though it was likely just a budget and runtime thing, seeing only one giant concerns me. Is it possible that this was only a fraction of the NK's forces and we learn before the end of the next episode or two that the NK had a resurrection/warg/etc plan and used this all as a fake while an army head to a more vulnerable south?

I really do think something secret is going on, I only hope its enough to keep things interesting and especially fulfill enough main storylines. Because as it stands, the remaining season could be VERY lame.

Exactly R125. I expected Grey Worm, Pod, Tormund, more of the main B characters to bite it.

She has already used magic to let her live a very, very long time r126. Now that the darkness is defeated she can finally rest.

How many hours did they spend on the Dothraki only to wipe them out in 90 seconds, 90 seconds we didn't even see happen?

Granted, the flames all dying out like that was kinda cool, but a waste.

How they handled the Dothraki was actually great direction, it was a visually brilliant scene. The episode could have used more of that.

Last week perfectly promised this week would be a heartbreaker. It lied.

[quote] After a couple death fake outs it quickly became apparent the stakes weren't real.

Yep.

I wonder if GRRM is going to see the reaction to this and will change his approach? Maybe he won’t even bother finishing it.

Did Gendry survive? I could barely see.

The dead are Edd, Beric Dondarrion, Melisandre, Jorah, Lyanna and Theon.

Wow, that’s a lot of wishful thinking R127. I hope tor your sake that it gets that complex, but given how much time is left and how this episode played out, I’m afraid you’re headed for some major disappointment. The NK plot is ovah.

We need more of the Lyanna Mormont deaths, and with characters who’ve been on the show more then 5 minutes. Gendry. Pod, Tormund, etc

Lesson of the night: Do not lift girls off the ground.

Honestly, Brienne and Pod were the only other two characters I figured would die. Maybe Davos. The rest are needed for the remainder of the story in the next three episodes. If Jon and/or Dany dies, who is going to fight Cersei? Tyrion, Jamie, Sansa, and Arya all have dates with Cersei. The Hound has a date with the Mountain. Sam and Gilly don't matter one way or another.

The Dothraki were needlessly sacrificed. Why didn't Jon and Dany just ride their dragons around the wights and light fire to them? Why even attempt to battle?

Lol r138. True

The show lost the nerve that made it famous with this episode. It’s going to end like any other fantasy series now. Surely, this is not what GRRM intended? Did he purposely lie to the show runners and HBO, is he contracted to tell them what he intends to do? Could he write something completely different, and could they sue him if it is substantially changed? I found it shocking that it was all so... common.

GRRM can and will write whatever he wants r142 (if we ever get more books).

The show is the show and the books are the books.

The Hound was kind of a pussy this episode. I'm disappointed in him.

Sam should have died at least three times. Especially the last one when Jon saw him get tackled by wights.

Grey Worm was the shit. He was an excellent commander.

Glad my boy Ghost made it. How? Who knows.

Tormund, Gendry, Pod, or Brienne should have died. It needed another big death. Though, it looks like Gendry will be with Arya now, based on the preview, so he might get legitimized after all and be important for the future.

From the Washington Post: “What do we say to the God of Death? Not today, apparently, after an episode of “Game of Thrones” where the show seemed both to lose its way artistically and to abandon the moral and narrative nerve that made it a genuine phenomenon. “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” may have raised my emotional hopes as the series headed into its endgame. “The Long Night” left me with grave doubts that it can stick its landing with the visual and moral integrity it has grasped for, and at times, attained. At the moment when “Game of Thrones” seemed poised to plunge its characters into the event of the episode’s title, it stuck us visually and intellectually in the dark instead.”

[quote]I really do think something secret is going on, I only hope its enough to keep things interesting and especially fulfill enough main storylines. Because as it stands, the remaining season could be VERY lame.

I’m not as optimistic as you r127, but I don’t think you’re totally off either about Bran and Tyrion. That expensive CGI shot of Bran-as-crow showed he was flying off to look at *something*— just not sure what. I hope the show can still surprise, but this episode did a lot to negate that hope.

When the riders aren’t visible, it’s impossible to tell the dragons apart in this ep

[quote]Not today, apparently, after an episode of “Game of Thrones” where the show seemed both to lose its way artistically and to abandon the moral and narrative nerve that made it a genuine phenomenon.

All of these Chicken Little types coming out of the woodwork because it wasn't a complete slaughterhouse tonight. I think it's more satisfying to see the human battle. It will mean more to me to see Jaime or Tyrion perhaps die at the hands of Cersei or Bronn or vice versa than a supernatural killing.

Well, he COULD write whatever he wants, but if he signed a contract with HBO where he was expected to reveal all major plot details and character development with no major changes if the show surpassed the novels, then we’d be in unprecedented lawsuit territory that could conceivably cost Martin millions of dollars. Given that reactions to how things are playing out are not going well right now, I would imagine Martin will be getting nervous and may decide to go a different route, that is, if he finishes.

I have a question- after the barricade was lit on fire and the wights were standing in front of it (before the Night King told them to walk into the fire to get over it) Jon was sitting on his dragon watching them. Why didn't he take the dragon down there and have it strafe fire on those captive wights? He could have burned so many of them while they were just standing there.

Or was he too far away? I couldn't really see. Or can his dragon not shoot fire? Maybe only for Dany? Idk. It didn't make sense to me.

Very little of it made narrative or visual sense R150.

Now all there's just a hundred thousand corpses to shovel out of the way before spring.

No, they all got turned into ice cubes. Everyone who was killed by the wights and White Walkers in the episode then became a wight, and all the wights and White Walkers turned into ice when the Night King bought the farm.

Next week’s Game of Thrones: The disaster supplemental to rebuild Winterfell stalls in the Senate.

And the post-battle sex for Jaime and Brienne. It's going to happen!

Gendry’s Dick gonna be SOOOORE. Arya saved the whole damn world. Service her, bitch!

So Cersei ends up being completely right. Sending her men North would've been stupid. The Northerners will deal with the dead and she just needed to prepare for what will be left of them. This wasn't such an existential threat that required everyone's help.

Well, that was a letdown.

Could hardly make anything out with it being so dark.

And beaten by a little girl. LOL.

Meh.

[quote]Ok fine, it'll probably be Arya and Gendry again.

Really not into watching little pugfaced Arya have sex again this season.

This set up Tyrion's betrayal quite nicely. Tyrion will see his sister has the winning hand, he knows his wife (they never divorced, he was declared dead) doesn't like Dany, and he knows Jon is useless - all the Prince That Was Promise, Azor Ahai stuff was hyped. In the end meaningless, like Jon's howls at undead Viserion, full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Arya seemed very emotional when Beric died. I wouldn't have thought she'd have cared- even if he did just save her life.

Neither Beric nor Jorah got any last words. Boo.

I totally missed the scene that was shown in the season 8 preview when Jaime yelled something (maybe Brienne) while looking down off the balcony or somewhere. Was that in the episode tonight?

So was Ser Davos following Melisandre to stab the bitch since she was still walking and it was about to dawn?

This episode was fan service galore. Fans are ruining art. It’s pathetic.

I Hope he was going to thank her for all she did to help.

Davos would probably just act like he was going to do it, but he wouldn't have. Hes too soft hearted, even to Mel.

R126, the impression I got was that Melisandre had burned through all of her magic by the end.

[quote]I totally missed the scene that was shown in the season 8 preview when Jaime yelled something (maybe Brienne) while looking down off the balcony or somewhere. Was that in the episode tonight?

Yeah it was there, I think he yelled out “Draw” to the archers or something like that.

I recommend night vision goggles for those yet to watch.

This was the thread people.

Oops, obviously meant to post that link in the duplicate thread

I wonder if Cersei is becoming a popular baby name.

Jorah got last words. He said, "I am hurt." It was hilarious.

I ship that drawn out eye exchange at the end between Sansa and Tyrion.

Tyrion': Maybe we should have stayed married? Sansa: You were the best of them. Tyrion: What a terrifying thought. Sansa: It wouldn't work between us. Tyrion: Why not? Sansa: The Dragon Queen. Your divided loyalties would become a problem.

Translation... I could love you if Dany wasn't in the picture?

[quote]I also suspected they it was so dark because they wanted to hide cheaper CGI (though $$$ for HBO).

I think it was dark because the Night King attacked at night.

Thanks r166 I do remember that part now.

My pet possum enjoyed the episode.

I see AV Club gave it a B, they weren't impressed.

So who do we think Sansa is going to use that dagger on? Will she travel South with Jon and Dany and co. to confront Cersei? Or spray and rebuild Winterfell?

^stay

I’m exhausted and wired and distressed! It was epic and I was covering my eyes and yelling at the screen!

I won’t be able to sleep for awhile.

NY Times:

Would we finally, in the grandest episode the show has ever attempted, get a fight that was just too large to both do justice to the conflict and also land with the emotional impact the story and viewers deserve?

Not today.

Sunday’s final clash was a masterpiece of tension and release, goose bumps and heartbreak, grandiosity and intimacy. It deftly mixed genres (horror, action, melodrama), shots and planes of action as it shifted from the chaos of the fighting in and around Winterfell to the claustrophobic terror of the crypts to the dragon dogfighting in the winter sky.

I won’t be able to return to the real world. I was going to cook eating TV dinner instead. Must gather trash for garbage man and do laundry also there is my job

Where the fuck is my thank you ?

Hello darling fans,

Next week is it possible you can figure out how to just have one thread, rather than the, what 3 you had today?

Thanks

The Times is a third string critic who gets it almost completely wrong from start to finish. Did they bother to publish because he was the first to rush to submit?

Cupcake, don’t you have more important things to worry about than having a couple of extra threads ? Control freaks never learn people are impossible to control.

Was it me, or did the wights drag Gilly away? I hope she's gone, can't stand that simpering face of hers. Little Lady Mormont had the best death and kill. The North needs more leaders like that.

I adjusted my tv, and it looks way better now.

No Gilly is alive...you see here standing with the survivors in the crypt...although it was so figgin dark I missed it the first time.

"Translation... I could love you if Dany wasn't in the picture? "

Yes, Tyrion and Sansa are reasonably well-matched at this point, she's starting to warm up to the man who wouldn't hurt her even when he was pressured to do so, and he's over whores and would appreciate some intelligent company. If they had to marry for political reasons, which is the only reason either of them would wed at this point, they'd probably manage to squeeze out a couple of kids and get on well enough. When Tyrion is sober.

And BTW... I guess House Mormont is now officially extinct. I figured that either Jorah or Lyanna would survive and carry on the line, but no.

"Now all there's just a hundred thousand corpses to shovel out of the way before spring. "

"No, they all got turned into ice cubes."

Which will thaw when spring comes! Really, Winterfell is going to be uninhabitable after this, ruined by the stomping zombie dragon and stuffed with tens of thousands of corpses. The few survivors will never be able to bury or burn them all, they'll just have to relocate and let the crows and wolves take care of the softer bits.

I take it Lady Alys Karstark is dead also? She was walking with the Theon contingent to the Weirwood Tree to protect Bran.

Damn, no country for child Heads of houses in the North. Buh bye Lady kick-ass Lyanna Mormont and Lady Alys and Ned Umber (episode 2).

Another Moldavian Massacre. What a fucking anti-climax! None of the big characters died. And Arya killing the Night King? Just laughable.

They fucked up this episode too.

"I take it Lady Alys Karstark is dead also? She was walking with the Theon contingent to the Weirwood Tree to protect Bran. "

It pisses me off that all those people died to protect Bran, who wanted to sit in an indefensible place... AND HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!!! Just sat there and stared at the Night's King coming to get him, didn't produce any important revelations or fight the NK on a psychic level or anything. Just sat there and let people die for him.

Why has Bran been given so much screen time, if he doesn't use his powers when they're needed?

I'm sure Bran knew exactly what he had to do- which was to just sit there and wait for the Night King to come to him. He must've had a vision that Arya would kill him.

I'm curious what the ravens that Bran warged into were up to. They flew by the Night King to go where? And do what? They will probably be important and Bran's purpose will make sense at the end of the show.

Must've sucked for Theon to realize he was for sure going to die when Bran thanked him. He knew his time was up then.

Why are you guys all calling Bran "useless"? He gives Arya the dagger with which to kill the NK, at the place where she is to kill him and then lures the NK to said place. What more was he supposed to do in his little wheelchair?

Did Arya know just where to stab the Night King? Or did she get extremely lucky and hit his one vulnerable spot?

So how the fuck are Jon and Dany going to wrest the throne from Cersei now? All their Dothraki, Wildling, Northern, Night's Watch, and Unsullied soldiers are dead now!

And who the fuck is going to join their cause now, when they realize that any minor character who follows them anywhere ends up dead.

Was hoping someone would use useless fat fuck Sam like a suicide bomber by dipping him in oil, setting him alight and casting him into the snow.

[quote]Did Arya know just where to stab the Night King? Or did she get extremely lucky and hit his one vulnerable spot?

She managed to kill him because they've gone woke this season. Can't you see? All the females are heroes while the men are beta males. Sansa has suddenly become clever while Tyrion has turned dense.

They started the wokeness last season with the death of Littlefinger.

[quote]She managed to kill him because they've gone woke this season. Can't you see? All the females are heroes while the men are beta males. Sansa has suddenly become clever while Tyrion has turned dense. They started the wokeness last season with the death of Littlefinger.

People who whine about "wokeness" and use beta male in a sentence deserves to be thrown to the moondoor and set on fire by a dragon on the way down.

The NK's death was a nice culmination of clues we were given in this episode and previous episodes. When Arya and Mel first met, Mel did not name "blue eyes" last, but in this last episode she does. In one episode in S7, Littlefinger tried to get into Bran's good graces by giving him the dagger that was supposed to kill Bran. Bran then gave the dagger to Arya when he reunited with her under the Weirwood tree. Arya then battled Brienne and used the same move on Brienne - throwing the dagger from one hand to the other - that she used to kill the NK. I thought that was cool! You guys are tough customers.

Was the Night King about to kill Bran? Or turn him into his second in command or something? Why was Bran so important to him? Where are the answers to these questions??

R201, the answer to those questions was in Season 8, Episode 2. Samwell asks the question at the war council, and Bran answers it.

R201 Bran says that the NK wants an "endless night" and to erase the memory of the world. Therefore, he needs to kill the 3E Raven, because the 3ER is its memory.

NYT perspective: “...when I look back on the Battle of Winterfell, I’ll think of the stirring scene when the Dothraki swords ignited in a wave of fire, only to extinguish one by one in the distance. I’ll remember Theon getting absolution, and Lyanna sacrificing herself to kill a zombie giant in a deeply symbolic if very sad moment, the smallest warrior felling the largest foe. (Wun-Wun, is that you?) Arya’s climactic dispatching of the Night King — saving Bran with the same dagger once intended to kill him — was genuinely surprising and thrillingly rendered.”

I believe three episodes remain. All of them are close to an hour and a half long. This episode was only 25 percent of the end. People who believe the great evil was vanquished are kind of naive. Do they expect that the last three hours will feature Arya finally getting credit for fine needlework?

Someone above asked why Melisandre ‘committed suicide’ by taking the necklace off. She didn’t. We saw in an earlier episode that she took it off to sleep; it only gave her the impression of youth; it didn’t give her life. She has always known when she would die. Go back to the beginning and she talked about her ending. She said last night she would be dead by dawn, and she said that the Lord of Light kept bringing back Beric Donderrion to live out his purpose, which he did, finally. Same with her. She knew her ultimate purpose, she completed it, and she was bound to die. And when she first revealed to us how old she was, she even made a comment about being ancient and ready to die but not able to do so until she had lived out her purpose. I don’t see her storyline as a plot hole at all, and I think she is a really good example of what this show has excelled at—showing how every person has his or her own motivations that often seem patently evil, greedy, etc. from the outside but make sense from the perspective of that character. Melisandre was a primary heroine last night with her firefighting ability and then giving Arya confidence. Melisandre saw and understood that this whole battle would take place and her role in it and Arya’s role in it. The two of them literally saved the world—and so in retrospect, had she not used the information she received and opted not to burn Shireen, then she would have abandoned her faith and would have failed. Melisandre like many characters did horrible things but all for good.

She also brought back Jon and we have yet to see why. That is an apparent plot hole so far but at some point he’s got to prove his worth.

So far the women of Westeros are saving the world. It’s going to be a real cheat if some dude ends up on the iron throne ruling over everyone.

Oh, I just realized that Yara now seems not to be wasted at all. She went back to take the Iron Islands even as her cousin is serving Cersei. Expect her to make a heroic re-entrance.

I was frustrated by the darkness and the disorienting scenes especially in the clouds. I thought as I was watching that though that the disorientation of it was intentional to impart how confused and chaotic and impossible to navigate a war like that would be, and how list in the storm clouds the dragons war. They couldn’t tell up from down or see the castle, and I think it was necessary in a way to put us in those clouds and have us lost with Dany and Jon because much of the time as the zombies were attacking, I kept thinking “where the fuck are the dragons? Is Danerys actually good for anything?!” and I would be reminded they were blinded by night and weather. I am certain a big part of why it looks the way it does is because darkness does mast effects and so that is practically useful, but I really do suspect that there was an intentional creative direction decision to make this battle feel impossible to navigate with no way out and it did that for me.

Also from the New York Times: “... I’ll also leave it to others to theorize about what the Night King’s flame retardancy might suggest about his lineage and whatnot.”

Consider that the NK survived dragon fire. Given that...well, I wouldn’t be surprised if he survived a jab with dragonglass.

“Daenerys and Jon continue to suggest that neither is ready to rule anything, from a brainpower standpoint. She just sat there on a grounded Drogon until the wights swarmed him like undead fleas. Later Jon stood up and squared off against an actual zombie dragon, only to be saved by Arya. Nice job, Targaryens.”

Yeah, I didn't get why she was walking Drogon amongst all those wights. Maybe he was too tired to fly, but it seemed stupid to leave him on the ground like that

r140

exactly. jon and dany are dumb cunts. hate them.

Maybe I am looking for an excuse, but we saw that Jon and Dany were perched somewhere high for a dragon’s eye perspective when the Dothraki were sacrificed. In my mind, that had to have been part of a battle plan to gain a broad perspective of what was happening. They seemed to have been aware (or I was, anyway, through the direction) that an army of wights, not white walkers, was charging through. That was only the first round. Since one of Dany’s babies had already been killed by a spear and resurrected by the Night King, if this were a real-life scenario, I would understand why they’d be cautious about cavalierly charging out with the dragons in a storm, not knowing if the NK was standing somewhere with his spear ready to take down the remaining dragons and convert them into his own weapons. They had to watch to get a sense of what the greater threat was.

What I really do not get is why only Theon and his dozen dudes were left in the woods to guard Mr. Special Olympics. To suggest that’s a weak and unmatched army is probably an understatement. Also, Bran was clear that he was there as a lure to get the NK. If the NK is the great enemy, then it seems strange that only Theon with his flaming arrows would be there as an assault against the zombie king. Why was no one else posted there? Why wasn’t the plan to have a dragon standing by to roast NK (not knowing he’s made of aesbestos ice) when he ambles up to Bran? Who throws chum (Bran) into the water as shark (NK) bait and then sails off to catch bluefin tunas?

And just remember that if the Night King *somehow* only vanished but was not vanquished, and if he travels to the south and reappears during a great battle where many die, all he will have to do is dramatically raise his hands like a flamboyant symphony director and he will have his own self-made army in the 90 seconds it takes for him to do his full fabulous flourishes.

Jon and Dany's main target was the NK. Theon was guarding Bran with his soldiers, but the plan was for the Targs to get the NK *before* he reached Bran, which is why Jon left his buddy Sam in the dust and was on his way to the Godswood, after the NK raised the newly dead and left Jon surrounded. What I thought was interesting was that Jon seems to have learned from his last battle mistakes - he was sticking to the plan and urged Dany to do so, but she took off on Drogon once the Dothraki were extinguished and he had to follow her. That Jon didn't stop to help Sam and was okay sacrificing him was pretty telling as well. To me, its a shift in him where he's starting to behave more kingly - thinking of the many instead of just the one. I would not be surprised if the love affair between him and Dany quickly sours if he starts to question her decisions. He seemed taken aback that her first thought when he told her the news of his lineage was not that they were family and fucking but that he had a better claim to the throne.

The crypt decision wasn't just Jon's. And honestly, where else could they have kept the women and children? I imagine most of them thought the remains of the Stark ancestors would be dust. Glad we didn't see a wight version of Rickon.

[quote]Also, Bran was clear that he was there as a lure to get the NK. If the NK is the great enemy, then it seems strange that only Theon with his flaming arrows would be there as an assault against the zombie king. Why was no one else posted there? Why wasn’t the plan to have a dragon standing by to roast NK (not knowing he’s made of aesbestos ice) when he ambles up to Bran?

This was exactly the plan. It is what they talk about last episode and it was referenced several times in this episode. Jon tries to tell Dany they need to wait for him to come after Bran to no avail.

Let NK be lured to Bran, and have dragons attack him. Turns out dragon fire was pointless against him, but that was their plan.

What happened to those scenes with Jon, Sansa, and Arya in the crypt standing with their weapons drawn that was shown in one of the trailers for this season? Why weren't they for this episode?

I like the way they handled the deaths. It didn't seem contrived and cheap. Edd died saving Sam, Beric died saving Arya and the Hound, Lyanna Mormont died heroically killing a giant, and Theon died protecting Bran. Fucking Bran even thanked him. There was no other way for Ser Jorah to go.He rescued his Kaleesi, and fought back to back with her, and it was a great sequence. Reminded me of some of those old Errol Flynn movies. And the way they executed the entire thing worked well.

I just want to say that no matter what your opinion is of the writing, or the storyline itself, this episode, taken on its own, was brilliantly directed. So many incredible sequences. Focusing on the personal. moving around so that we were seeing not just the incredible scope of the battle, but also the sweep. Kudos to the Direct and his team. That guy should win every damned award there is to give for this. People were on the floor shouting at their TV sets. I loved it. And I'm glad this didn't end up being Jon facing the Night King, or battling more Whitewalkers. Jon was actually pinned down. The Night King blocked him with Vyserion. IF we go back and re-watch the entire series, the clues were all there from the beginning. Arya!

A bar full of people reacting to the climactic scene.

[Quote]taken on its own, was brilliantly directed. So many incredible sequences.

There was some brilliant sequences. But a lot of the battle was a muddled mess where it was hard to follow what was even happening.

Objectively, the direction was hugely problematic and headache inducing R218. It was rife with major technical issues such as cinematography and lighting, and this is agreed upon by virtually everyone, both critics and laymen. It certainly didn’t approach the achievement of Helm’s Deep, something the director said he studied in depth and attempted to emulate.

There were a few moments that stood out, the dragons above the clouds and the death of the Red Woman, otherwise it was quite an unholy mess. The extended sequence with Arya in the library that everyone seems to be impressed by was copied straight out of multiple survival horror video games. This episode will not bear up well with repeat viewings and will come to be regarded as one of the series biggest failures, if not THE biggest, along with the NK plot in general, unless something is done to reverse it in the course of the next three episodes, but let’s be real, that’s not happening. Now it’s back to dull wine guzzling and politicking with Theon’s retarded ugly brother.

R220 That is not accidental. It was a creative decision to show the battle as chaotic and seemingly futile. Your frustration is a taste of the characters’ frustration. You may not appreciate the choice but it was a clear and solid creative choice to depict the episode as confused and murky and difficult to navigate. It created a dance of sensory overload and sensory deprivation.

All it accomplished is I honestly started to get bored at parts r222.

R221. I actually got a legit headache and kind of felt nauseous watching it. Felt like I was car sick. Shouldn’t need to take Advil to get through any tv show or movie.

That’s an excuse R220. They’ve directed much more clearly in claustrophobic situations earlier in the series, the same director in fact. I get what they think they were going for. It didn’t work. And someone should have stepped in. Ten minutes of that is fine. More than half of an 80 minute episode is not. It’s just incompetent work.

That reply was meant for R222.

]quoe]A bar full of people reacting to the climactic scene.

Cute, but fake. It's really from a World Cup Football match with GoT Photoshopped on to the screen.

I know the Night King was supposed to be scary, but his makeup looks like he's from a bad production of CATS.

[Quote]I found it shocking that it was all so... common.

This is the difference between Seasons 1-4, and Seasons 5 on.

David and Dan are not GRRM, once they have to start writting this without any book guideline the writing of the show lost its poignancy and intelligence and became a lot more common.

An episode like last night is a perfectly pleasant affair for some generic fantasy movie, but if you are looking for something more which is Game of Thrones at it's best it is just not there. It has moved to more lowest common demoniator entertainment.

There are still flashes of brilliance like the episode last week, but they are the exception.

95% casualties in general, 95% survival of named characters. Hmph.

The problem is not so much with the film as it is with our televisions. They just can’t handle so much action in darkness. They failed to take that into consideration.

The Time Magazine review literally just rants about that r230

Someone posted picture was better on HBONow and was right.

Is it possible that Bran was warging Arya?

Didn't the Red Woman tell Arya that her eyes will turn blue? Maybe it was indicating that Bran warged Arya

The scene where bodies in the crypt were resurrected could have been so much better. All that chaos and terror, and nowhere to go. A missed opportunity for a zombie Rickon moment too.

imagine they were all watching yesterday too .... (and this makes me actually a bit sad...)

So I’m guessing Cersei marches on Winterfell. Makes more sense than the remnants of Winterfell marching on KL.

Forget about Bran being useless. So is Jon Snow. Everything he does turns to shit. He can’t even stay alive and has to be resurrected by a woman.

So I’m sure Yara will play a part in the next battle. She’s one of the only women who hasn’t rescued one of the major male cast members. She sailed to the Iron islands to take them back for Dany. She’s going to maybe destroy Euron.

I have HUGE complaints about the episode, but the battle plan isn't one of them. I think it was a 'make the best of the bad (lacking southern support, in particular) situation' things.

And each stage of the plan, was just more unsuccessful than successful. Just as the preparation itself was. Every stage of this leaned towards the Night King's victory, and all other suggestions I've read don't really make as much sense to me.

Dothraki: They were effectively, and relatively, scouts. Yes, its terrible that they (I'm unsure they're all killed, but maybe enough that Daenerys loses a lot of Essos connection and maybe even frees up the Dothraki Sea politically for centuries in the future) ultimately became zombie chow and part of the dead army, but the defenders - including even the dragon riders that already lost 1/3 of the dragons - had to know what they were up against. Best case, the warriors chip down a lot of the undead, like the strongmen they are, and ride back quickly on their horses. Worst case, they're all devoured quickly. We got nearly the worst case, that's all. Did this have to be the plan? No, but not doing something like this would open up the situation to another thing like the undead having surprise weapons to strike down both dragons in a single push. The winter and darkness was terrible for tactics, and I think the Dothraki seemed intended for getting any view of the situation. And the situation proved dire.

Unsullied and the Ditch: We have to remember that the real plan is to take down a hopefully-weakened Night King, around a hopefully-weakened undead horde, as he heads directly for Bran. In that sense, it is a little less Helm's Deep and little more Black Gate/Mount Doom. The defense of Winterfell is mostly a distraction. The Unsullied are positioned best as aggressive defenders, and that's what they did, even as they were swarmed. Meanwhile, weapons and dragon fire held off the undead enough for the Unsullied to do their jobs. What failed? The undead were still too vast. Too many panicked and people were too slow to get to the fire the ditch. Then the witch set it aflame, but the ditch was still not enough for the undead to organize sacrifices to dampen the flames. This stage still had success, but it didn't hold the undead off long enough for enough of a breather.

Inner Defense: If this was the best case, everyone would be at their stations and have enough of each others' backs to take down scores of undead each. Instead, as always, the nearly-worst-scenario occurred where there was a rush to stations and too many undead flooding in, too soon. Instead of scattered breaches, the NK set up a flood that beat most defenders within hours.

Theon: Bran was bait and everyone (else) was ready for him to die. Theon is just the token defender just in case some time is needed. What they wanted to happen was something like Jon on a dragon quickly enough arriving.

I think what the defenders were praying for was that the siege could last at least nearly the whole night and the dragons/Jon/someone could get to the Night King going solo or near-solo and hopefully kill him, and it would shatter the undead. Instead what they got was the siege only lasting most of the night, the dragons and Jon got deterred, too many undead diverted towards Bran too soon. Everyone expected mass casualties no matter what, and they even expected this sort of scenario or simply total failure, but they still really hoped it wouldn't be this bad.

That said, there's enough survivors + enough potential surviving support (from north and south) and at least 1-2 dragons, that even a whittled down northern army is still an army. Not everyone made it to Winterfell or even agreed to come, and not all possible allies (forced or not) of the south had anything to do with this. Cersei was just seemingly correct that if they were to lose in the North she and everyone else is doomed anyway, and if they were to win in the North then she has a better position than before. If the undead were pressing past the North she may have decided otherwise.

I do have to express a lot of disappointment about the crypts. Almost no useful character moments. The undead getting through stone(?!? I'd have hoped for something smarter like a few wights getting in and being commanded to free the rest). Sansa and Tyrion deciding murder-suicide. And Gilly isn't necessarily expected to do anything but NOTHING happened. Varys has been a nothing as now usual. There could have been opportunity for a more desperate politicking (in the local zombie-invasion sense) but almost none of that happened.

It honestly feels like important parts of this episode were discounted in favor of a more recent plan to have Arya more important and have more scene time. And if so, I'm pissed.

I agree with those saying the crypts were a disappointment. The "big shock" of the buried bodies coming to life really went nowhere.

[quote]Varys has been a nothing as now usual. There could have been opportunity for a more desperate politicking (in the local zombie-invasion sense) but almost none of that happened.

He's my favorite character, but if they don't have anything for him to do this season (and so far it's obvious they don't) then kill him off and be done with it.

Although maybe he winds up on that beach with Greyworm and the other eunuchs. I could see Varys and Tyrion spending their declining years sitting in a little villa drinking wine and talking trash about everyone stuck back in Kings Landing.

r217 There are crypts at King's Landing as well.

"95% casualties in general, 95% survival of named characters. Hmph. "

That really, REALLY bothers me. And not only is the North basically depopulated now, but it shows that Jon's calling everyone in the North to huddle into Winterfell was another bonehead decision on his part. Most of those who defied him and stayed home are fine now, and like with the Battle of the Bastards, anyone who did what he said ended up dead. It also bothers me that the writers assume we don't care about mass civilian casualties, just the named characters.

Everyone who follows Jon ends up dead, the Wildlings, the Night's Watch, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, House Mormont, the general population of the North. My deepest sympathies for anyone fool enough to follow him and Dany in their quest to oust Cersei from the Iron Throne, at this point the best thing for the kingdom would be to stop fighting and just let her rule in peace.

In peace????? Do you not remember this:

Is this the most emotional Dany has ever been?

I’m predicting the hero of the next battle will be

r70 Happened to me as well and I just got them back. Wrong thread at the wrong time, it happens sometimes. I'm just sad it happened right after this episode ended so I couldn't discuss it with people here.

Anyway, Melisandre aka The Boss has once again shown the children why you need a fabulous sorceress in any battle. She - along with Arya - stole the whole damn episode.

She slayed the giant zombie!

RIP Lady Mormont.

[quote]Sansa and Tyrion deciding murder-suicide.

That was t what was happening in that moment. As the de facto leaders in the crypts, they were deciding to protect the others, hence the weapons. That they might go out dying to save the women and children was the point.

But the scene did make me wonder why the people in the crypts weren’t provided with some weapons as well. Surely Tyrion should’ve had his own piece of dragonglass weaponry to use, same is Missende and Varys and any other able bodied adult down there.

As to the lack of deaths, blame media hype. Bran and Melisandre made it clear: people were positioned exactly where they needed be, and those alive still have a role to play in some event that has yet to come to pass, Jaime for example is clearly still around because he still has some unfinished business.

I kept seeing the same cast members swarmed by AoD. Two minutes later, they’re still covered with wights. Three minutes after that....yep. Still cornered and dripping in dead bodies.

Then, they’re fine.

Arya killing the Night King was a surprise for me. How the hell did she jump that high boggles the mind. She's tiny but it's TV.

Ghost was there!

Most of the main characters are the embodiment of the Old Gods so of course they all survived. You think the Lord of Light is the only one playing divine chess on this continent? Think again.

Remember all those theories saying how Cersei and/or her baby might be turned by the Night King? They all sound so silly now. And Arya being Azor Ahai seems like a no-brainer in hindsight.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

"As the de facto leaders in the crypts, they were deciding to protect the others, hence the weapons."

Sansa had a weapon, Tyrion can fight and should have had one, there should have been people with weapons in the crypts, the old men and dwarves and women who would want to go down fighting if the worst came to pass.

I'm very disappointed with this episode in general for a lot of reasons, and one of the smaller ones is that they didn't show anyone in the crypts putting up a fight. Tyrion is a veteran of the Battle of the Blackwater and should have been fighting, Sansa should have taken down at least one wight, other people should have been fighting back, because remember last season Jon called on the women of Westeros to learn to fight because things were that fucking desperate. Instead all we got was panic and uselessness, and Jon getting still more followers killed.

Ridiculous episode, and not even that great. Hardhome was a WAY better episode, with an actually emotional death (even if obvious from a mile away) with high stakes and urgency.

The Battle of Winterfell came to a HUGE screeching halt when it decided to play hide-n-seek Jurassic Park-style in the castle library. There were thousands upon thousands of wights absolutely flooding Winterfell, and the castle was basically empty. Absurd.

Not to mention the already noted plot armor death pool. More characters died during the Sept plot (Pycelle, Lancel, Kevan, Margaery, Loras, Mace, Tommen, High Sparrow) than in this war to end all wars. All the characters here were not only on the FRONT LINES, but even after that STILL managed to survive. Jamie with one hand, Fat Sam, a lowly blacksmith, a smuggler, a squire, and Brienne who screamed in terror in every scene? I guess I'm glad Lyanna Mormont is dead because she was over and done with her SECOND "rousing speech."

It's such a shame how much this show shit the bed after the amazing Season 4. Only watching now because my husband wants to; I really could have done without after the Tyrells died in S6 and ESPECIALLY after the off-panel steamrolling of Highgarden and write-out of all of Dorne in S7. But even here, with the supposed biggest and best battle ever, doesn't even come close to one they've already done before.

He died honorably but after all he's been through, I do wish Theon survived.

Lady Lyanna went out with a bang - or a poke.

I don't know why I was so surprised that Arya killed the Night King. Duh.

One opinion on who lives and who dies.

good posts, r244 and r248

"you have a good heart, lord snow, it'll get us all killed" - it was my favorite line when a.thorne said it and a truism if there ever was one. it's still my favorite line from this show and it's still a truism.

also, as a viewer i definitely care about the nameless masses in the show - more than several 'important' characters, often enough. i'm very upset with the senseless and unnecessary deaths of the dothraki, the free folk... the unsullied. like r244 said everyone that has followed dany and jon.

[quote]I'm very disappointed with this episode in general for a lot of reasons, and one of the smaller ones is that they didn't show anyone in the crypts putting up a fight.

They did but sadly they cut those scenes out. Sansa and Tyrion did put up a fight. You'd have to look at the behind the scenes to see it.

[quote]I know the Night King was supposed to be scary, but his makeup looks like he's from a bad production of CATS.

If you look closely, you'll also see that he resembles French president Emmanuel Macron.

[quote]r229 David and Dan are not GRRM

What difference does it make? Isn't GRRM one of the executives, who can tell them what to do and what not to do?

r211 it was my impression that Dany grounded Drogon in order to grab Jon.

Even though most of their forces were wiped out, I would say that Jon and Dany still have dragons to stop Cersei. But didn’t Cersei’s slimy little helper dude come up with some kind of weapon/crossbow thing that could perhaps bring down a dragon?

If Bran is all seeing and all knowing why didn't he maybe suggest to Theon that a charge at the Night King wasn't the best idea. "Thanks, Theon, and wait a mo, my sister's coming to kill him". Would that have been so hard?

Bran is useless, but he’s better than Jon, who is a brainless assassin. Jon is the biggest zombie on the show because he gets everybody killed. And why didn’t Jon die when Melisandre took off her necklace? When NK died, all the zombies he reanimated also died. Jon should’ve died when Melisandre did.

Yeah, I foresee both Dany’s dragons being killed and at the last minute, Yara Greyjoy will show up with a dozen Ironborn in one ship and drop a mic on Cersei & Qyburn.

Remember when people were getting sick of all the women in GoT being either noble or whores? And all the raping and gratuitous female nudity? It was after season three, I think, that everyone had kind of had enough of naked rape whores when I heard the showrunners decided that the females would end up saving everyone so they could say, “See? And you called us misogynists! Shame on you!”

r271

because maybe he wanted theon to die? just because he said 'theon you're a good man' doesn't mean he meant it. bran is shady af.

otherwise i'm with r272

jon is awful. AND undead.

The dragons and Ghost survived, which I was only able to figure out from the preview for the next episode - and that's all I really cared about. Of course now you have to worry about your favs surviving in the next three episodes.

More people die on your average day in Westeros than died at the hands of the dreaded white walkers. The Hound has killed more people going for a stroll through the countryside.

dude, almost everybody died - they just weren't important characters with names and character arcs and stuff. the dothraki - wiped out, the unsullied - wiped out, free folk remnants - wiped out... no way has the hound ever killed this many people.

winterfell - a great castle - in shambles. NOT your regular day in westeros.

it was jon and dany's talentless leadership that led to these deaths. just because the 'main' characters survived doesn't mean the entirely avoidable death of thousands of no-name characters isn't tragic. it is. poor leadership and nerfing your people is always tragic.

[quote]But didn’t Cersei’s slimy little helper dude come up with some kind of weapon/crossbow thing that could perhaps bring down a dragon?

The scorpion, and yes I think it’ll come back because it’s now a part of the opening credits in King’s Landing.

What is preventing the now army-less Dany from getting thrown in the brig by Sansa? The two dragons parked outside?

Anyone else felt bad for the Dothraki? Imagine dying on another continent for someone who's not even one of your own by blood. I guess that pretty much marks the end of their pillaging community on Essos?

[quote]Anyone else felt bad for the Dothraki?

How can I when the show treats them as a joke? They didn't bother to give any of them a name and identify, like they did for the unsullied with Grey Worm. Just kept them as some savage horde.

Bran DOES NOT see the future.

The Dothraki women and children are still back home. They can rebuild if they’re lucky.

Of course he does r282. Not the way he can just decide to skim through the past of course, but part of his base abilities is that he has visions of the future.

I’m glad the Dothraki are dead. They were raping, pillaging savages who sold villages into slavery. Plus they were misogynists. Fuck em.

Yes, in GRRM's Song of Fire and Ice, almost all the women start off at a powerless or debased point, and rise to prominence.

I'm shocked that these characters are still alive:

Grey Worm

Tormund

Gendry

Pod

Brienne

So in the next two episodes we get Dany and her company travelling to the south and strategising, with Cersei looking resplendent in her new scarlet-accented armour and giving her last speeches, and then an epic battle for the Iron Throne in the sixth episode?

I hear the next battle was in the fifth episode, but I could be wrong. I have been trying to stay away from spoilers.

^^ heard**

I'm shocked too. I expected Gendry and Jaime and Brienne to make it out. But I fully expected Tormund, Podrick, Grey Worm, and Samwell Tarley to die. If they had put Sam's character into the crypt I'd have said he will probably live and kill a few zombies. But when he was placed out there with Edd and The Hound, I was sure he was going to die. I figured Beric would die, but not the Hound. Because The Hound is Arya's "guardian angel" and she is his. I was not surprised Edd died. I expected it. They didn't need to kill Jorah. Once Lyanna insisted on staying out to fight I figured she was ded.

My guess is Arya kills qyburn, takes his face, then kills The Mountain who will be fighting his brother and almost killing the Hound. I think Arya will save him. Of course if she has Qyburn's face she could kill Cersei too. And Euron. I'm hoping Jaime lives and ets with Brienne. I hope Tyrion kills Broon before Bronn can kill either of them.

All this talk of the poor lighting and no one has thought to say...

If Arya gets any more of the "big kills" it would be overkill.

I knew Jorah was a goner after the whole redemption of the last episode. Same thing happened with Theon. Beric has been dead in the books for a while, so I knew he was a goner as well. Thought Pod would be done, but nope. Same with Tormund--but he may be too much of a fan favorite and there might be some reason to need a Wildlings leader at some point.

Brienne still has to get it on with Jaime and experience love for her arc to be done. Sam is the modern man who's going to help usher in the Westerosi renaissance and write down the history of it all. He's making it 'til the end.

I was wondering what Melisandre was saying while spellcasting and then I saw the Spanish subtitles and it's basically just "Lord of Light, protect us, for the night is dark and full of terrors." Pretty uninspired but I guess it's her faith that lit those fires, not the words.

Sam is totally under the protection of The Seven. There's no other explanation for him having survived this battle.

From The Onion:

Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, who described feeling stunned when discovering that he had squandered day after day of his precious existence freezing his ass off in Belfast-based shoots just to play a mediocre role in an emotionally incoherent series that had stretched on for years too long. “I’ll never forget when [showrunner] David Benioff sat me down and told me the fate of the Night King and I thought: Who gives a flying fuck? What am I still doing on this show? Jesus Christ, I actually cried.” At press time, several cast members told interviewers about having their breath taken away after learning their characters survived the battle and that they still had to film three more episodes of this goddamn thing.

[quote]I'm shocked that these characters are still alive: Grey Worm Tormund Gendry Pod Brienne

Gendry and Brienne benefit from their main character SOs.

R297 while I was underwhelmed by the episode, it's still doing miles better than the corpse of The Walking Dead. And it knows to end.

Cersei kills major characters more efficiently than that ridiculous Knight King.

If last week hadn't been so good at making us think everyone was doomed, this week wouldn't be such a letdown

I agree with the NYT. Arya killing the NK was a total boss move and a total fucking surprise. Although how she probably pulled it off was discussed here. Wore a wight’s face so she could get up close to the NK and then morphed back so the motherfucker would know who did it. Pity she wasn’t able to get out the words “the North remembers” because he had her by the throat. The way they prepared for battle was impressive even though all of their defenses were useless against them. Lyanna and Jorah did the Mormont name proud. Seems the crypt wasn’t the safest place after all. Oh, well live and learn. Now I see how Tyrion might get himself killed. His regard for Sansa and wanting to make their marriage a real one is not going to sit well with Dany. And Jon claiming to be a Targaryen will play into it. A plot by the Starks to steal her throne? Dracarys!

So house Mormont, House Umbrer and House Karstark are gone.

[quote] Cersei kills major characters more efficiently than that ridiculous Knight King.

Oh, [italic]dear.[/italic]

It’s a fantasy story, and even if the show paradigm has seemed to be “shocking deaths of primary characters!” it has really been “emotional resonance.” People was spared in some ridiculous near deaths too many times last night, but heroine Melisandre dis emphasize the point that everyone who is there has a reason to be there. If they are alive, they have some significant role to play before they can rest. Arya’s time may be if her last act was her last important act. Mel brought Jon back for a reason and Jon has not successfully done anything useful since, so he is bound to have his truly heroic moment. I think probably everyone who waited out—as Sansa also articulated, because they weren’t useful in battle—will have something world-changing or personally fulfilling to complete their arcs and then they will go. I don’t think any major character will die in a meaningless way at this point and I am fine with it.

And house Baratheon, since Gendry is a bahstid

Er, people *were spared...

So the Night King dies by the same dagger that set the whole game of thrones (at least this cycle) into motion, just like Littlefinger who sent it. Would be even more poetic if Arya uses it to kill Cersei.

Was you born in Flea Bottom, r305?

R308 no it would be fucking overkill.

That is a task for Needle, r308. Remember who had it made for her? And who made it? That will be poetic justice.

I don't understand people on Twitter who wanted to be given some reasoning for the Night King's actions, or for him to give some final monologue to clear things up. He's not a person - he's the embodiment of an epic natural disaster or an A.I. gone out of control. That's it, that's the reasoning. We never ask what the meaning of a hurricane is either. Unless you're a fundamentalist Christian, that is.

R312 Yep, and you can’t kill a hurricane with one quick poke. The storm’s still a-brewin’.

Oy. Are you suggesting that the NK Arya killed was not THE NK and he’s still OUT THERE? Hold me, Gendry. Or John. Or Tormund. Or Jaime. Or Poddick;)

Where exactly was Melisandre between her scene with Varys last season and this battle? In Essos to get juiced up in the Red Temple in Volantis?

Also, imagine riding a horse alone in complete darkness, but having the faith that your god will protect you until your task is completed. She's such a boss.

Everyone who is bitching that this episode was anti-climactic needs to wait until the final episodes roll out. I think there will be some shocking twists we didn't see coming - hinted at in previous shows, but not overtly. They needed to get rid of the NK in this episode and put his story away to get to the final stuff coming up between the main characters.

Spoilerish musing: read somewhere they Dany has a bit of her mad father in her, and goes all out in her quest for the throne and power and that includes turning on Jon and the Starks. She somehow ends up like the undead White Walkers in the end, becomes a kind of 'Night Queen' - not sure how this happens but is intriguing.

What bothers me, is if Melisandre knew that Arya was going to be the one to kill the Night King, why did she still attatch herself to Stannis and then to Jon?

[quote]Pity she wasn’t able to get out the words “the North remembers” because he had her by the throat.

What happened to Yohn Royce? He was at the war council and then??? I didn't notice Knights of the Vale during the battle.

I think Knights of the Vale made up the bulk of the Northern armies. You had the Dothraki, the Unsullied, and then the North.

I think Melisandre was getting pieces of a puzzle and has been trying to put them all together for years. It's like she saw "something" in Arya and knew she would become a significant actor, but Melisandre hadn't put all the clues together. I thought Davos acted poorly towards her. She made significant contributions to their effort. Yes, she burned Shireen at the stake. But as Mel said, "so did her father. So did her mother." Shereen's death was the most horrific scene in the entire series.

i've said this before. By now, the leaders of the Living all know how the Army of the Dead fight. So I'm mystified why they fought in traditional formations and handled them as if they were a normal fighting force. They're like wild animals. I would have s et up huge nets to capture them and burn them. They had enough time to spread pitch around the forest and light it up at the right moment. The alo knew the army was marching for Winterfell so why not send the dragons out to burn as many as they could?

Someone mentioned Bran "going away" and wondering about the ravens. Bran wargs in to the Ravens and they become his eyes. He knows where the Night King is, he knows when they're on the march, those ravens are his way of monitoring the Night King and the battle for Winterfell. Hopefully now he can focus on Cersei. I hope he tells Tyrion and Jaime Bronn is coming. Did anyone else notice the funny looks he gives Tyrion?

Yeah. Where the fuck is Bronn?

Here's the thing -- all these years have been about zombies that are so terrifying that you'll shit your pants just thinking about them. They're cooming! The Army of the Dead! I've send them!" They travel all over westeros spreading the word that they all have to fight .....everyone! But the white walkers never even got past Winterfell .They didn't have any army from Riverlands, The twins, Dorne, Highgarden, Dragonstone, Stormlands, Iron Islands......just the north, two foreign armies and a smattering of wildlings and Nights watch. Nobody else from Westoros. Oh -- the Vale.

The last we saw of Royce was in the second episode, right before Sansa talks to Danaerys. He and Sansa are having a confidential-looking discussion. Prediction: Sansa sent the knights of the Vale south, just in case.

Royce is in the preview for next week. He’s among the lords toasting Dany and is at the burning of the dead ceremony.

R184 fuck off. It was an AMAZING episode. You must be an incel that was angry that a woman killed the NK.

R320 I think he knows Tyrion sent the catspaw assassin to kill him.

Tyrion didn’t send the assassin, Joffrey did. Pretty sure that was made clear.

I mean...yeah

r280

i did feel bad for the dothraki and all the other essosi dany had brought to westeros to die. their culture is brutal and all that but they didn't deserve to have it and themselves annihilated by some dumb queen's actions - she is not even their own.

dany didn't do anything to give these people a chance to survive this battle - a battle that wasn't even theirs... she didn't help buy burning the aotd, she didn't help by making sure they had proper weapons she didn't help by making sure they were protected by wise military tactics... mel did more for them than dany. pathetic.

all of them should have stayed in essos. their mhysa didn't deserve neither them nor their sacrifice.

Jeez, it was explained why the NK wanted to take over the world seasons ago. He's the living embodiment of the Children of the Forest's attempt to control the spread of humans, who were desecrating their trees and forests.

This show is astonishing in its scope and production values. It has hundreds of characters and an unwieldy philosophy, and it’s pretty ridiculous that when it gives us such an extraordinary episode that combines major character developments with few words and bold directorial choices, everyone here tears it apart as if it’s a miserable failure because it’s not what they would have done. Most Oscar-nominated movies these days are uncreative and barely stir the heartstrings, and this show isn’t perfect but anymost any given episode is better than many 90-minute films that rake in money at the box office and even which get nominated for major awards.

And I’m not sure what I am not seeing that many of you are. I see lots of comments that critics panned and condemned the episode. I’ve read about a half dozen reviews/recaps, including the NYT and Rolling Stone ones mentioned here, and they all overwhelmingly say this was a tremendous accomplishment and incredibly moving despite the murkiness and the “plot armor” and other potentially irksome aspects. Despite those things, at least published critics give the show a lot of credit for pulling off a major feat. Going by much of what I read here, if I didn’t watch the show I would be inclined to think it’s one of the worst things on television. I don’t get it.

" A plot by the Starks to steal her throne? Dracarys! "

A plot by the Starks? The Starks whose lands were just depopulated by the zombie apocalypse and are mired in ten feet of snow? How the fuck are they going to mount a plot to claim the throne, with all their fighting men dead? How the fuck are they going to convince anyone that Jon's claim has any merit, when the only evidence is the word of his "special" brother and his best friend?

Danerys knows which hand fills up faster, if you shit in one and put your birthright in the other.

R331 I agree with you.

Oh. I was at a watch party at someone's home for my first viewing of episode 3 and I saw everything just fine. The resolution was good. When I came home and tried to watch it again last night, I had to keep adjusting my TV because it was too dark in some spots to see anything. So I'm not convinced the fault is with the Show. It might be your ISP or something technical.

[quote]f I didn’t watch the show I would be inclined to think it’s one of the worst things on television.

MARY! No one is calling it the worst thing on television. People have strong opinions about this show because they care. There was high expectations for this episode, it was the culmination of major plot through-line of the show, and for many it failed it live up to it.

WHO CARES. Thank god it will be over so I don’t have to hear about it from you goddamned nerds anymore.

R320 I definitely noticed the long look Bran and Tyrion shared as Bran was being wheeled to the Godswood. He knows Tyrion is probably headed for a major fuck up.

R336- That could be true or it could have to do with the fireside chat they had the night before the attack. Maybe Bran told him that it would be ugly, but that they would prevail. Bran likes to be cryptic.

I don’t think what follows is a spoiler, but it deals with something possibly portentious from the books and so please consider this a spoiler warning even though it probably is not...

I read yesterday that Old Nan, Bran’s nurse who annoyed him with stories after his fall, has a much greater role in the book and that she may be due for a reappearance. On one of the DVD extras, the show profiles her stories, including one she told Bran about his ancestor Brandon “the Builder” Stark, who founded House Stark, Winterfell anf The Wall. Supposedly the DVD extra shows an illustration of Brandon—an adult male with a beard—who is being carried on a wood stretcher, sitting in a chair that’s affixed to it...suggesting Brandon the Builder could not walk. Old Nan tells Brandon about him, saying no one knows if he was real or is only a legend, and Nan also tells Bran that his history and all histories already have been written. Some people speculate that that is a bit metaphysical twist, and that Bran ultimately may be his own namesake, the creator of House Stark and the builder of the Wall and Winterfell who resides in different parts of a time loop as the same but different people. In season one of the show, Ned tells Arya that Bran might one day build a castle like Brandon the Builder did. In season five, Shireen was excited to go to Winterfell because from her books she had learned that Bran the Builder is buried in the Winterfell crypts...

R338 I've read a bit about Bran's connection to Brandon the Builder before on other sites. But I think that this, like many other plot lines, fell by the wayside when the story was adapted by HBO for TV. Bran would know whether he was a real person, but I think aside from mentioning him a time or two during 8 seasons, I don't think he is significant.

Someone was talking about the possibility of The Nigh King being a Targaryen because he's immune to fire. Even Dragon fire. But I think it's just magic. It's possible the same source of magic is responsible for both the Night King and some Targs. (Not all of them. Dany has a very rare gift.) The White Walkers a re also immune to fire and we know they're Craster's kids. LOL! I found it interesting that none of the White Walkers seemed to participate in the battle at Winterfell, even though they were all there lined up on their horses in the preview for Episode 3.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R336 that wasn't the first time. Remember when Tyrion was on the balcony/ walkway at Winterfell, after he spoke to Sansa for the first time, and then Tyrion looked down in the courtyard and there was Bran sitting there watching him.

I wonder what's going to happen now with Jaime and Tyrion. Clearly, Cersei is at war with Dany. So does Jaime return to Cersei to fight with her? Or does he stay with Brienne and Tyrion? If Tyrion really is going to betray Dany, will Tyrion confide in Jaime? Will the brothers fall out? We are so focused on Jon and Dany, that I wonder if we're missing the potential Lannister brothers' drama.

Ramin's low-key cute.

[quote]“The Long Night,” or the longest ever “Game of Thrones” episode, was watched by 12.02 million viewers during its initial broadcast.

[quote]“The Long Night,” which clocked in at a massive one hour and 22 minutes, is now the second most watched episode in “Thrones” history, behind only the season 7 finale which drew 12.1 million linear viewers. Sunday’s episode was also the most tweeted-about television episode of all time, with more than 7.8 million tweets. The new record only refers to scripted TV episodes.

It was the highest watched episode if you include HBOnow and HBOgo, I'm not sure why they didn't lead with that instead of "linear viewers" who watch on an HBO television channel.

One thing I still wonder about is the new gods vs. the old gods dichotomy. Melisandre proved beyond any doubt that her faith system was grounded in reality, and she prayed to the Lord of Light, R’hallor. And I guess her belief system is “ditheist,” based on the “good” LoL and the dark opposite, The Great Other. Was the Night King the Great Other, vanquished by the Lord of Light?

What does this say about the other belief systems? What about the Old Gods of the North, and what about The Seven from King’s Landing? Did Cersei’s blowing up of the Sept show that there’s no Seven, that it’s a false faith? Or what are we to make of Melisandre’s proof of the R’hallor by successfully appealing to him for help compared with the other religions?

[quote]The episode, officially titled “The Long Night,” is the worst-rated Game of Thrones episode since Season 5, according to Rotten Tomatoes. Critics on the rating website gave the episode 74 percent approval.

[quote]That means there’s only one episode of the show to have ever placed lower in Rotten Tomatoes rankings. Season 5 Episode 6, "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken", scored an unlikely 54 percent approval rating, likely because of its depiction of Sansa Stark’s rape by Ramsay Bolton. Most episodes of the fantasy, action series rank between 85 and 100 percent. The average is 94 percent.

Crazy. And that episode with the Sand Snakes is one of my favourites as well. I love Dorne!

R346, I think GoT is particularly good at demonstrating that all of the religions represent humanity’s erratic attempts to understand God/the Gods. Melisandre can channel some powerful stuff, but we’ve seen her be horribly, horribly mistaken as well. I would have liked to have seen her have a chat with Bran, and have them compare notes on what they think it’s all about.

R347 - I don't know if it's my favorite episode but the one that gave me the most chills was "Hardhome" (I think that was the name of it). As Jon Snow is sailing away, the Night King raises the dead. That episode stayed on my mind for a long time. I'm surprised I didn't have nightmares. LOL.

I don't think there are any actual gods in their world, just general magical abilities that have become more potent ever since (proper) dragons were born again. The last dragons before Dany's were the size of dogs and the magic around the world reflected that - they were mostly parlour tricks and nothing more.

I’m curious too r343, more so than anything related to Jon and Dany. I can’t imagine Jaime backsliding to return to Cersei again, pregnant or not. Plus you’ve got Bronn out there with Chekhov’s crossbow at the ready.

Sorry meant r342

Things don't look so great for Dany. She's lost most of the Dothraki. Probably 80% of them. She's lost most of her unsullied. Maybe 60% of them. Of course the North lost people too. The thing is, will the North be willing, now that they have survived, to help her take the Throne from Cersei? Unless Cersei threatens them, they might want to wait and see. Yes, ungrateful wretches all. Now, Sansa will help her get rid of Cersei. Sansa understands how dangerous Cersei is. But Sansa will exact a price. Independence for the North. And Dany will do it. If Jaime and Tyrion discover that Cersei is trying to kill them, they might give their whole hearted support to Dany and Jon. The whole thing could be solved without a war. Just sendArya and The Hound the King's Landing.

[bold]Game of Thrones Keeps Killing Off Entire Immigrant Populations, And It's a Problem[/bold]

[quote]It's odd, because not only have so many outsiders died to protect the people of the Seven Kingdoms, but some the most prominent characters have foreigners to thank for the skills, experiences, and magic they've learned from both Essos and the Free Folk. So it sits a bit awkwardly that there's very few Free Folks or immigrants from Essos left to share in both the rewards and a slice of the power structure that emerges afterwards.

I was waiting on those takes of how the ethnic Dothraki was just killed off to protect to white fighters or whatever. You knew it was coming.

What else do you expect from some fat, old, white tub of lard sitting in his mancave in New Mexico?

r355 Isn't is true, though?

I never much liked the Dothraki guy on the left of Dany in r354's shot. HATE that Clairol hair and beard colour that's way too dark for him; he looks so unnatural and wiggy to me. Or maybe it's that his beard edges are too defined for a supposed barbarian. What's that actor's ethnicity, anyway?

George has never shied away from saying he has his blind spots as a straight white man of a certain age, some more obvious to him than others. Though not the wokest youngster today has a complete grasp on all identities. That's exactly why TV shows have writers from various backgrounds on their writing teams. But books just don't work that way and he was building on established fantasy stories up to that point in time when he wrote the first book.

[quote]THE CASE AGAINST WATCHING THE REST OF GAME OF THRONES

The hot takes are coming in thick and fast, aren't they? It's like they're competing in who can pen the most outrageous headline.

"The whole thing could be solved without a war. Just sendArya and The Hound the King's Landing. "

It sure could! If they assassinate Cersei before she gives birth or marries Euron, Jamie is her next of kin. Jamie is now on Dany's side, so if Danerys marries Jamie, and reminds him who in this marriage has the dragon, the boom! She's queen! With only one and a half people killed!

However, that won't happen, as it leaves Jon at a loose end, and with a dragon.

The free folk wanted to conquer and pillage and the dothraki likely didn't even want to stay. If either are to integrate its probably for the best (in this specific sense) that they're so decimated.

The cinematographer gets very defensive about the look of the episode.

[Quote]And if you couldn’t see a lot of what took place during one of the most pivotal episodes of Thrones to date, then they’re going to need you to adjust your lifestyle. “A lot of the problem is that a lot of people don’t know how to tune their TVs properly,” cinematographer Fabian Wagner, who shot the episode, told Wired UK. “A lot of people also unfortunately watch it on small iPads, which in no way can do justice to a show like that anyway.”

[Quote]? “I know it wasn’t too dark because I shot it,”

It's an encoding problem - older TV models simply couldn't handle it. But I agree that the cinematographer's response should be more informative than that. On the other hand, I've learned by now that cinematographers are some of the biggest assholes in showbiz, so him being dismissive like that doesn't surprise me at all.

"And if you couldn’t see a lot of what took place during one of the most pivotal episodes of Thrones to date, then they’re going to need you to adjust your lifestyle. “

Stupid git! It was his job to make the fucking episode visible to the average schmuck with the average TV, and he didn't do that.

R362 Are we surprised someone named Fabian is a fucking pretentious wanker who messed up, and rather than admit it, instead blames those artless plebs for not understanding his art or knowing how to tune their TVs.

It was a joke, r332. But I do believe that she will become more suspicious of Jon, Sansa, and Tyrion. Missandei didn’t like what they said about the Dragon Queen being a hindrance to having a real marriage so what do you think Dany will think? She’s already off Tyrion. Perhaps she will see those mistakes as deliberate. As in, doing Sansa’s bidding. Or Cersei’s. Jaime turning up alone to sell the idea that they have both turned on their sister? When she learns that Euron has his fleet in Kings’s Landing and the group from Essos are her swords I’m sure she won’t think for a minute that Cersei’s blood kin haven’t been playing her. Her claim to the throne threatened on two sides. What if she is more like her father than we think?

I watched it on my iPad because it was the only way I could see a lot of it. So he’s full of shit right there. My LG HD is fine with almost every show I watch except for GoT. Having to adjust the t.v for one show is ridiculous. Some of the fans have big bucks and can afford the best t.v.’s that money can buy. And they weere bitching along with the little people. What an arse. Think they better do some adjustments before the 500 dollar box set comes out.

HBO needs to understand that 99% of their viewers do not have OLED screens with inky blacks that can handle that kind of cinematography. They watch on TVs not in movie theaters. It is an absolute fuck up across the board, and HBO should have stepped in and fixed it in post.

I think it would’ve been better to have Cersei come up to Winterfell as allies with the Starks, then start a battle with them instead, while the Starks are preparing to battle the White Walkers. Cersei attacks, the Lannister’s gain the upper hand and that’s when the White Walkers strike. Then you’d have the whole of Westeros and parts of Essos fighting for their own lives against the Night King and death.

But I’m not HBO and they are.

r369 Even if she sent her army, Cersei would never come to the North herself. It would be completely out of character to abandon the Red Keep and go battle the Starks on their own terrain. She tells Joffrey in the first season precisely that in her famous "Everyone who isn't us is an enemy" speech.

I have an ancient (2010) plasma TV. No murky darkness for any GoT episode, and the picture quality is excellent.

Cinematographer getting (rightfully) raked over the coals by Film Twitter right now.

What Melisandre failed to disclose in the beginning is that her lighting up the swords is a common parlour trick back in Essos because that's how they light up the street lamps in Volantis every evening and they use it in theatre productions all the time as well. No wonder it did shit for the Dothraki. But hey, the barbarians felt courageous for a hot second before they died, and that's all that counts.

Seriously though, I kinda love magic being properly balanced in this world. Even though it could be argued that her bringing Jon back from the dead was less flashy but changed the course of history more than starting a couple of fires ever could.

We bought our 4K 70 inch screen tv at Xmas and couldn’t see at least half the episode—so it is not “old TVs” that are the problem.

r374 I saw every detail on my old HD PC monitor just fine so your settings must have been off. Something as simple as energy saving enabled can sometimes mess everything up.

I just realized my dog looks Theon Greyjoy

^like

I don't understand why they didn't use what they already knew to get rid of the dead. Unless there were just so many that they were totally overwhelmed. But remember when the Wildings attacked Castle Black? They had a giant scythe that swung out and swept the wildings off the wall ? They could have fashioned something similar for the walls of Winterfell. And IMO they didn't use fire as effectively as they could have. I'd have sprayed those fuckers with grease and lit them up.

It doesn't really matter the strategy, you can't beat death. I do think the episode illustrated that by doing the resurrection thing again. There will always be more corpses, its fighting the rising tide.

Has anyone solved where Arya jumped from?

She came across the roof tops and from there into the trees. Just like brother Bran used to do.

Ok, I don't get the crypt shit. The dead come out of the crypts and they're running around catching people while Sansa and Tyron -- who have weapons -- hide behind a tomb. How many people did the dead bodies grab and kill while they were hiding? They finally decide to go after the zombies and the zombies are still running around grabbing people. Everyone in the crypt should be dead by now

I like how there just happened to be a clear path through the dead bodies that melissndre can walk through. Wouldn't want to have to climb over a 3 ft high pile of bodies.

I loved episode 3. I thought it was beautifully done. It was pretty clear, as the cameras panned over the scene with Jon pinned down but the Ice dragon, and the Night King resurrecting the newly killed, the Living were losing the fight. Where Arya jumped from doesn't matter. It's like asking how she transformed herself into Walder Frey to kill his entire family.

She learned techniques and magic when she trained with the Faceless Men in Bravos. She knows how to move. Remember when the soldier at the gates of Winterfell tried to stop her from coming in, and reached out to grab her? She is like the wind. That slight flutter of the long hair on the White Walker who turned it's head was all the White Walkers noticed of Arya as she leaped at the Night King. She was so fast she was a blur.

Dragons, zombies, ice monsters, a witch, an undead foibling resurrected Jesus hero who is in love with his dragon-mother aunt...and people are criticizing the battle for having unrealistic tactics and outcomes. 🙄

"And IMO they didn't use fire as effectively as they could have. I'd have sprayed those fuckers with grease and lit them up. "

If ever there was a time for old-fashioned cauldrons of boiling oil, this was IT!

As for Tyrion and Sansa doing diddly-squat down in the tombs when the Dead rose, well, I've heard that there was a scene of them running around and fighting the undead... and it was cut. Which was another really fucking stupid decision, along with making everything so dark that the majority of viewers couldn't tell what was going on.

The only dead who are effective killers are the ones with weapons. Otherwise, they rely on a dog pile technique to kill. Those crypt dead were pretty dusty and unarmed they probably went down with a good shove.

[quote]I'd have sprayed those fuckers with grease and lit them up.

And what do we say to death?

“Die in a grease fire!”

[quote] It's like asking how she transformed herself into Walder Frey to kill his entire family.

She didn't do that

^yes, she did.

[quote] She was so fast she was a blur.

So why did she have such a hard time in winterfell with all the dead? They piled up around her, blocking doorways. Then she was trapped in a room surrounded by fire and wights. Why didn't she magically fly around killing wights?

R391 she was kicking thorough ass until her little head was bashed into a doorframe. That'd throw off most, no?

Thanks R392. And R391, she was using the techniques she's learned from Syrio, and from The Waif, etc. but she wasn't doing her Faceless Man assassin thing when fighting the wights. She was just fighting like everyone else, only better. I loved the expression on Ser Davos' face as he watched her kick ass. After Melisandre gave her that pep talk, she went into assassin mode.

Cersei is next for Arya's blade if Melisande is correct.

I hope not. I hope it's Jaime.

A satisfying end for an evil bastard. Goodbye and good riddance to the Night King.

R394 didn't Melisandre say 'brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes' in that order? Maybe Arya killed the green eyes after she killed brown-eyed Walter Frey. Did Littlefinger have green eyes? Maybe he counts.

^Walder, obviously.

I loved it that The Hound was watching so intently when Melisandre spoke to Arya. He's the only other person who knows Arya has killed people. I wonder what he'd say if he knew she went to Braavos, and that she killed the entire Frey clan.

Dany has blue eyes. Just like the Targaryan Night King.

R399 he'd probably say the cunts deserved it.

I thought it was strange that the Hound was so afraid of the wights and death. That didn't seem very in character for him. I get he was freaked by the fire and quit fighting, again, but he's like 'you can't kill death' or something like that.

I know it was so Beric could give him a little pep talk and they both could save Arya, but it was just weird he was cowering in a doorway while everyone else was fighting.

The Hound knew that fire was used to kill the wights and he was deathly afraid of fire. He also saw, correctly that the living were fast becoming overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of zombies that the Night King had weaponized.

Just watched it again and it was brilliant. Checked back into Arya's character arc through some Youtube videos and it was all there. I loved the whole thing except for the first few minutes and stupid Sam Tarly being such a crybaby.

The women in this stood out from beginning to end: Dany knocking the bitch NK off Viserion and torching (the dragons scenes are worth seeing in better view for a second time) him without effect, Melisandre's whole contribution, the Little Bear being boss right up until the very end, and Arya going into assasin mode when ol' Mel' pepper her up.

I kept hearing Yara say to Theon: The Dead may Never Die, but Kill the Bastards Anyway!

HBO adjusted the contrast (more yellowish background) because the second viewing was much better.

R403 yeah so he ran away and hid. That's expected of Sam, not someone like the Hound

Yep, R405, and he only got shaken out of it to help Arya. I saw the show. I know Sam's character. It got tired after the first two or three closeups. Really though, it was my only complaint besides letting the suicide charge of the Dothraki take place.

Second episode: During Cat's confab in the weirwood with her crew, Theon vows to protect The Starks to the bitter end and then Maester Lewin has a sarcastic comment about "a battle in the weirwood."

Yeah when the wights were overcoming the parapets, I was wondering where the cauldrons of boiling pitch were.

r391- The wights were actively seeking live persons, attuned to any noise. All of the White Walkers and the NK were fixated on one thing and not probably expecting any attack from behind, as well as been distracted by Theon before them.

After Theon was stabbed and fell to his knees, I was hoping he would have one last attack in him and stab the Night King as he was walking by. Oh well.

[quote]didn't Melisandre say 'brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes' in that order? Maybe Arya killed the green eyes after she killed brown-eyed Walter Frey. Did Littlefinger have green eyes? Maybe he counts.

He did indeed (though Gillen’s eyes IRL are blue). So Arya has offed brown eyes, green eyes and blue eyes. The whole point of Mel’s speech was getting Arya to where she’d kill the blue eyed Night King.

Arya killing both the major villains would just be silly.

I think we underestimate a lot of the subtleties of our story tellers. Arya's role was obvious in hindsight. of course we could never expect to see it or understand it in the first three seasons. And when she went to the House of Black and White I thought, (and so did a lot of other people) that she wanted to train so she could exact vengeance on the people on that Murder List of hers.

But as she pointed out most of them are dead by Season 5-6. So by season 7 she's heading home to Winterfell... to do what? She was going to go to King's Landing to kill Cersei, but changed her mind. She went home. All her skills, etc. and she was going home. And still I never would have thought of her killing the Night King. Jon was the Arch enemy of the Night King. Jon was the expert on the Army of the Dead. Never Arya. When Melisandre said "We will meet again. I See Brown eyes, Green eyes, Blue eyes, eyes you will shut forever, " as they stood outside the cave with Gendry and Beric and Thoros, I thought Mel meant the people on her list.

So now that this has happened, Arya killed the Night King, and it all makes sense, I have to ask, what makes sense for Cersei and the Iron Throne? Because we all expect Dany to get it. We all expect Jon, the reluctant leader to get it. We all expect Tyrion or Jaime to kill Cersei. Or maybe the trained assassin, Arya, But really, how will Cersei be defeated? Who will "do the deed?" Who will take the throne? Will there even be a throne or a king or queen after the battle of King's landing? So that's where my head is right now. I'm trying to figure out where the storytellers go from here.

There’s a loud argument going on in my LIRR car about who kills Cersei and if the NK is a Targ right now. I hope it doesn’t come to fisticuffs.

They just added an “Inside the Episode” segment on HBO On Demand with the two creators. They mention that they decided 3 years ago that Arya was going to kill the Night King. Also, little Lady Marmont was only supposed to appear in one episode, but they fell in love with the actress. It’s pretty clear from their conversations that they are making up their own plot choices without guidance from Martin.

In what video definition do I need to watch this dark soup? 1080p and there is a lot of color blocking in the particularly inky scenes. What definition does HBO transmit this? 4k?

R388, I regret that I can only give you one W&W!

As for "green eyes", in the books the Lannisters are all described as having blonde hair and green eyes. Of course a whole bunch of blue-eyed actors were hired to play them, but Lena Heady's eyes actually are kind of green.

I never liked Daenerys Targaryen.

I haven't liked her much in Seasons 6 & 7... and so far the only human thing she did was cry for Jorah. But when we first meet her and we get through the first 4-5 seasons she was fine. I even felt sorry for her with that horrible brother and then Khal drogo's brutality. Her backstory, being on the run most of her life, never knowing a loving family or a home, she had no stability, and she had to make her own way. I get that. But she become one dimensional, brittle and power hungry in the past two seasons. Sansa was exposed to brutality and betrayals, and watched her father's beheading, but at least she came from a loving family and a stable home, and knew her parents, etc.

R417 here. Let me correct myself. he seemed vulnerable and human when her dragon died, and then waiting to see if Jon survived, sitting at his beside,e tc. She had some moments.

It seems that every single person in the world is betting on who will kill Cersei.

I wore my boss black Chess King jacket to the bar to watch the Night King DIE. It was fab.

The one thing they have always gotten right is casting.

Well. It works in TV Series logic, but a lot of these knights are rather LONG IN TOOTH to have withstood the battles they have survived. The actors are 45-60ish.

No one but Sansa had a weapon in the crypt? Not even Tyrion? The hero of the battle of Blackwater? What about the little girl who wanted to fight? She didn’t ask for a weapon? And Sansa didn’t know what to do with a fucking knife? None of the crypt stuff made any sense. NONE.

The crypt was poorly handled except for the moment between Tyrion and Sansa. Seemed like a rush edit if you ask me. Or the talented ones were working on the battle scenes. Also the Knight King is seen DRAMATICALLY walking into the Castle, and then.... NOTHING: Cut away. And the next we see him, he is dramatically walking up to the tree and Bran.

These little sloppinesses were annoying. The dragon battles were cool. I'd like to see them on a big screen. There was some nice if watered down references to Kurosawa in the build up to battle and some of the advances.

Sorry Night King

Agree r424 when all the White Walkers strode towards the castle in a group I was getting ready for some serious action with them. I thought they'd fight Jaime, Brienne, Tormund etc and actually kill some of them. But the White Walkers did jack shit. That was disappointing.

Jaime and Brienne had Valerian steel and could have killed White Walkers. Of course dragonglass works too. Just not fire.

I watched it again. (This makes 3 times) and again I got frustrated at how poorly they prepared their defense. For instance: Tonight as I watched this zombies climbing up the walls of the castle, I noticed the braziers of fire they had around the walls for the arrows, and I wondered why they didn't just start setting the fuckers on fire as they climbed. And why didn't they put shards f dragon glass in the walls to stick the fuckers? What were they thinking??? This was no regular army. This was like being swarmed by animals, ravens, wolves something not human.

I got bored with some of the longer, ridiculous sword fights

[quote]Tonight as I watched this zombies climbing up the walls of the castle, I noticed the braziers of fire they had around the walls for the arrows, and I wondered why they didn't just start setting the fuckers on fire as they climbed.

Because the Night King kept laying down waves of fire suppressing magic. It's what extinguished the Dothraki swords, kept putting out the flaming arrows, and prevented them from igniting the trench, at least until Melissandre had to repeat her spell some 20 times in order to overcome it, and the trench finally caught.

[quote]And why didn't they put shards f dragon glass in the walls to stick the fuckers?

Dragonglass and Valyrian steel only worked against the White Walkers, which were numerically few, and never fought at the front. By contrast, the Wights (corpses, the reanimated dead) had to be beheaded, incur head damage, or be set alight, and these numbered in the thousands. The six or seven White Walkers only entered Winterfell once the castle had sufficiently fallen so they could simply walk through to the Grove.

[quote]And why didn't they put shards f dragon glass in the walls to stick the fuckers?

They did. You can see it on the battlements when Jaime and Tyrion are having their chat in the previous episode.

R427 I know valerian steel and dragon glass can kill White Walkers, but that doesn't mean that just because Jaime and Brienne had Valerian Steel swords they would've killed them. I was hoping for a White Walker fight, not just wights.

The crypt bodies would not have been buried with weapons would they? That being the case, the only thing they really have to kill with is their teeth and the choking ability of their arms if they aren't decayed to much.

Someone with a dragon glass blade should have been able to deal with the dead grandmas and great grandpas.

R429 The Wights were able to be killed by dragon glass, that's the whole reason for forging tools of it, why make thousands of weapons for a few dozen White Walkers. The writers were sloppy as there was some embedded in the snow covered battlements as R430 said already.

The end was gratifying but the episode was a sloppy dull mess. To a degree I get it as with renderings lighting is the hardest element to master but it was like watching through spilled ink. I also dont like the explanations and conflicts in stories, first it was the viewers didn't have calibrated TVs, then from the writers they wanted us to experience the battle as those within the storm, that's a pithy rationalization. The energy went into preproduction and superfluous detail leaving post production lacking.

The wights can still grab weak children, women, and elderly and smash their heads.

Yes there should have been dragon glass blades. Add that part to the dumbass list. However supposedly there were cut scenes of Sansa and/or Tyrion actually trying to fight off the undead, at least a bit.

Also, I like the idea that this is all a massive revenge ploy by the Children of the Forest/Three Eyed Raven.

Now that the frozen rogue AI is handled, nothing stops 'Bran' from fomenting more destruction than Littlefinger ever would.

Well r419 no one?

Is that the same no one that taught Arya to fight?

Come to think of it, did the Night's King ever use his killing-cold wind power? You know, the frozen clouds that rolled down the mountains at Hardhome and killed everything it touched?

Because that's something the good guys would have no defense against, so of course it was underutilized.

and why was Dani wearing a fur coat from Dicker & Dicker of Beverly Hills and not battle armor????

[quote]However supposedly there were cut scenes of Sansa and/or Tyrion actually trying to fight off the undead, at least a bit.

In one of the “making of” features for this episode you can see them filming scenes with Sansa and Tyrion fighting the wights so yeah, they filmed it and then didn’t use it.

"and why was Dani wearing a fur coat from Dicker & Dicker of Beverly Hills and not battle armor???? "

Excellent point! Wasn't she wearing armor when she rode her dragon into battle against the Lannisters last season?

Maybe she was wearing her armor under her coat, bcause it's got to be as cold as fucking fuck, riding a dragon in the equivalent of a Saskatchewan winter.

She wore the same damned coat inside and out, and flying above the clouds in the winter sky, without a HAT! Now Dr. Zhivago shows us appropriate winter headwear.

If we’re going to nitpick every single technical and psychological aspect of the episode...to the point that the dead clawing their ways out of their tombs to terrorize women and children in the crypt is no big deal, because all they have to assault people is their teeth...um. What about terror? These women and children are not professional warriors. They mostly live domestic lives and have not been trained to fight, have not engaged in hand to hand combat, and *probably* have never encountered rotting corpses coming after them on a mission to kill them. If we have to pretend everything in this show’s world should be based in reason and reality (despite the zombies, dragons, video game-type supervillain single-vulnerability rules), then all we need to do is think about the context to understand the terror of hidining in a crypt, hearing everyone you know slaughtered upstairs, and then seeing gnarled dead bodies climb out of walls and scamper over on a mission to eat your face. That MIGHT be terrifying enough to paralyze even Sansa.

But since we *are* picking apart the logic of this story, one thing that everyone else accepts that really bugs me is the conventional superhero/supervillain/videogame rule that has zero basis in reality. The Night King can withstand anything at all, including beingg roasted alive or any other assault, but just one poke, anywhere, with a specific mineral, causes him to shatter in an instant. Poof. And all his minions with him. I accept that these are the rules of this fantasy story, but for me it really is too easy of a resolution. He doesn’t have to be stabbed in the head or a vital organ, it seems. He doesn’t seem to have an allergy to the dragon glass or anything that takes any time at all. One poke in the little toe, it seems, and poof! He is done in for evermore. Ten thousand years of ruling over an army and raising the dead and riding the back of a dragon and controlling weather systems, but stub a toe on a particular rock? Done, never to be seen again, and all of his creations undone in that same instant. Blagh.

For all the thought GRRM put into the rules of this world, that one is really hard for me to embrace. But in the end I can because it seems clear to me that this series’s whole purpose really is to demonstrate all these different lives and their complex humanities and how every good and evil thing every character does (except the Night King, whose motivations we don’t know) is perfectly reasonable from that character’s vantage point. Even Cersei, if we accept that she has always had one desire and that everything else has been either a help or an obstacle in getting it. Danerys is similar except that she has tried to do altrusitic things despite her supreme narcissism and greed and ambition. In a way, Cersei is a more honest sociopath than Danerys is, because Cersei knows that all she does is in self-service, whereas Danerys believes all she does is in service to making the world a better place—through her rule. Even now that she knows it’s not her divine right.

Looking forward to Episode 4. So much to get settled. Episode 4 is only 4 minutes shorter than Episode 3 and episodes 5 & 6 are all as long as episode 3. They have a lot to sort out in #4. They have to acknowledge and burn the dead. They have to sort on the Aegon Targaryen thing. There may be a wedding or two: Gendry & Arya, and Dany & Jon/Aegon. There's the whole Lannister aspect: What will Jaime do now that they have defeated the Dead? Will he stay with his brother and help Dany, or will he return to Cersei? Will Bran tell Jaime and Tyrion Cersei is sending someone to assassinate them? Will Bronn actually show up? What about Jaime and Brienne? Will she influence him to stay? Sansa is going to mourn Theon.

Dany will be inconsolable about Jorah. Jon will mourn Edd and Lyanna too. Then all the Dothraki and Unsullied who died. Sam & Gilly have to hug, Missandei and Gray Worm, too. Who is going to King's Landing? I don't think Sansa will. I wonder, will Arya stay in the North or go with Jon to fight? The Hound will be looking forward to killing his brother. I'm looking forward to seeing how they all react to discovering Arya killed the Night King.

Arya will definitely go to KL. She'll want Cersei's head.

Bronn will show up to Winterfell. Guess we'll find out if he's a complete pos if he tries to kill the Lannister bros. I hope he doesn't. He must have some affection for them. Maybe they'll convince him that if he helps to kill Cersei they will pay him twice what she paid him. And give him a castle.

I wonder if the Hound and Melisandre had a chat while they were locked in that room after Arya split. Something pertaining to killing the Mountain, perhaps. Hound must've had to put down wight-Beric in there, too. That sucks.

I'm glad the remining episodes are long ones and that the super hyped episode 3 is over.

Questions - Didn't that woman tell a young Cersei she would have 3 children? That might mean that she's not meant to have a fourth child and this is the young sibling who will kill her.

How can they go to King's Landing to challenge Cersei? 95% of Jon and Dany's followers are dead!

As for who goes, Sansa will stay to rebuild the North, secretly hoping that Jon won't come back. She'll invite Tyrion to stay and be her husband again, thereby giving him an out from whatever shit is coming down his pike, and he'll turn her down. Arya will go because Jon and Gendry are going, and she's still got her list to finish. Sam will go along to make trouble for Dany. Bran will say something portenteous and trouble-making, and Jon will leave him in the Winterfell wierwood instead of taking him along and using his abilities to find out Cersei's secrets or anything.

Because Jon is a dolt and Danerys isn't much better.

[Quote]95% of Jon and Dany's followers are dead!

We have no idea how much of their army remains, the writers will tell us next episode.

Danerys needs to die.

If Danerys or Jon had any sense, one of them would have pushed the other off the cliff when they were watching the battle. I expected Daenerys to do just that but I guess she figured he would help with the battle then she could do it later on.

It's possible Gendry and Arya marry, he gets legitimized, and they stay at Winterfell to help Sansa rebuild. Really, Gendry has no role to play at King's Landing. He has no ambitions to be king. At least it's too late in the game for the writers to introduce his ambitions in that regard. My guess is he wants to stay with Arya. One of the first things he said to her was that Winterfell was not a bad place to grow up except for the cold, and she joked he needed to stay close to his forge. So maybe they're considering it. Shit I hope someone gets a happy ending. Are the writers really going to let Arya have the two biggest kills in the series? I think not. IMO, Cersei is going to kill herself blowing up the Red Keep. Unless Euron kills her first. Or jaime discovers her plan and kills her to stop her. History repeating itself. Queenslayer. I'm afraid for Jaime. I think he'll have a very sad ending.

Regarding Gendry, either Jon and/or Dany legitimize him when they take the Iron Throne and make him Lord of the Baratheon Stormlands (because the Baratheons have died out), or he dies and Arya goes back to her Death Cult. Either way, Arya's not going back to live at Winterfell, to spend her life arguing with her sister.

As for Bronn, whether he goes through with his mission will depend on what he thinks of Danerys's remaining forces. He's not stupid, he'll want to end up on the winning side.

I’d like the Hound to kill Cersei

I'd like Cersei to kill them all and drink wine.

Cersei can have them made into decorative objects for her state rooms.

There are really only two people who should kill Cersei and they're both her brother.

Jaime has spent his entire life devoted to Cersei, it has always made the most narrative sense he would be the one to kill her.

Does Cersei need to die. Maybe she will be banished to live in the dessert, like Idi Amin Dada.

But Westeros has terrible desserts. Baked apples? Rice pudding? Feh!

Yes, Cersei needs to die, and she needs to die before she can cause more trouble by birthing an heir or marrying the odious Urine Grejoy.

As long as she's alive she'll keep making trouble, the only way to keep her down is to kill her dead. She said it herself - "If you play the game of thrones, you win or you die".

Exactly, R459. I wonder if the Mountain does it? That would be something. She has used him as her killing machine. Maybe he'll turn on her? Qyburn would control him. I do think Qyburn has a role to play. I also think there was something suspicious about him sending Bronn off.

They had to use Qyburn because Lena and Jerome (Bronn) won’t shoot scenes together.

There is no prediction of Cersei being killed by a younger sibling in the tv show.

This last episodes end was too fulfilling, and I WANT Cersei dead, so that's probably not going to happen.

It would be interesting if she was drunk and had an accident similar to what happened to Robert or if she was tossed out of a window like Bran by Jaime. Because I'd rather an ending with her dead I doubt it'll happen. On the other hand the showrunners seem to have lost some balls so there could be a great end to her. She could also poetically die from either miscarriage or premature birth (since she isnt showing), or maybe Bron will be the one to do it if the Lanister Brothers pay double? But to go through all of this and wind up with her still being HBIC in Westeros would be terribly anticlimactic.

Theres also a slight chance Arya and Gendry will play a part, her family was hunting for him in the first several seasons and he was well aware of who wanted him dead. That seems slim because of the action their characters have already seen.

No she doesn't R457. But the people of Westeros need her as their ruler.

Arya decides to get laid so she picks Gendry, and now some of you have her getting married and picking new curtains for Winterfell? Be serious, she's a killer and she'll remain a killer.

This is an entertaining analysis of the episode. It's all about the hands!

I can’t believe the actress who played Myranda, Ramsay’s gf, is getting a series of her own. She’s so fig with her wide nostrils and buck teeth, yuk. And she’s a bad actress.

R467 That series that's following the White Princess (sequel to the White Queen, which had Max Irons amazing ass prominently featured) is going to be crap if its predecessors are any indication. The female and male leads have only gone downhill (partly because of trying to copy GoTs), so not surprising at all.

What is funny is that viewers have bitched about spoilers before, like these weren't actual historical figures!

(Sucker for war of the roses history)

Joe Dempsie 31, spent his 20's on this show. He's one of the unsung cuties of GOT, nice and lithe, and Arya chose well. He's from Liverpool but Dempsie is an Irish name.

trying again another pic

Just hanging out. He looks small of frame.

[quote] He's from Liverpool but Dempsie is an Irish name.

Ive never seen it spelled that way before. Maybe it’s the Protestant version.

Dempsie, Jacob Anderson, and Hannah Murray all shared a house together back in the day, as starving artists.

Actually, now after beating death, I think Arya will embrace life. She is the only hope for the Starks to live on. Sansa will never marry again.

Maybe Sansa will get with Podrick. He survived the Battle at Winterfell. He has to have some purpose and it's already been established that women love him...and he can sing. Plus he's used to being bossed around. He'll be knighted, too. Betcha.

Hell die in the next battle, or sometime in the next 3 episodes.

Pod is getting Chekhov’s crossbow right in the chest.

[quote]Actually, now after beating death, I think Arya will embrace life. She is the only hope for the Starks to live on. Sansa will never marry again.

Didn't Sansa allude to her insides being all fucked up after what Ramsey did to her? So even if she married, having children might not pan out.

Pod or Brienne will get Bronn's crossbow bolt. One of them is going down.

R478 that's fucked up if true

Arya married?!!!! Oh my sides!

Melisandre really was the hero. Lighting the swords, lighting the trench, motivating Arya to action...

I was disturbed that Davos still wanted to harm her after witnessing all the good she did.

[Quote]I was disturbed that Davos still wanted to harm her after witnessing all the good she did.

She had an innocent child that Davos loved and was close to burned alive. No real human would forget about that, ever.

[quote] She had an innocent child that Davos loved and was close to burned alive. No real human would forget about that, ever.

Stannis Baratheon is responsible for Shireen's death. Davos was devoted to Stannis so he should direct his animus towards his hero. Melisandre was motivated by her belief system. She thought she was an instrument of good, she was not malevolent. Davos watched her bring Jon Snow back from the dead. She put herself at great personal risk to aid in the battle against the Dead. She was pivotal to the victory over the Night King. What's a b*tch got to do to deserve a little grace?

Take off her necklace and die

[Quote]Melisandre was motivated by her belief system.

Many people murder in the name of their belief system, doesn't make it any less murder. Ahe burned an innocent little girl alive and you want to handwave it.

And Stannis bears guilt as well, but he succumbed in a moment of weakness to Melisandre. It was her doing.

"Stannis Baratheon is responsible for Shireen's death."

Okay, I absolutely loathe Stannis, but I'm not going to call him completely responsible for that one. Melisandre had been begging for the chance to burn his only child alive for months, FOR YEARS, and when he was desperate he finally broke down and agreed. And she burned others, many others. Remember when they were on Dragonstone and every time one of his advisors disagreed with him, he let her sacrifice them to the Red God by burning them alive?

I don't care if Melisandre saved Winterfell single-handedly, if I'd known that child I'd still want to execute her anyway. Not just for revenge, although revenge would be a motivator, but because she's a massive fuckup and her mistakes get innocent people horribly killed. As long as she's alive and a single person anywhere listens to her bullshit, as long as she's alive and believes in her horrible God, she might burn others.

Game of Thrones S08E03 gets hammered in IMDb user reviews: 6.45 and falling!

We had greater insight into Melisandre than anyone else on the show (except possibly Stannis’s wife) since we saw her in her real form seasons ago, an ancient old woman who was totally exhausted. That to me was extremely significant and it bought her a lot of good will. Other people read that scene as showing us she was an evil old witch who tricked men with her lust trap, but my take was that she looked tired, even totally worn out, and yet something was driving her to keep going. Her commitment to the Lord of Light’s message, her bringing back Jon and her general demeanor made me feel she was working toward good in a way that she understood good to be—she didn’t get off on sacrifices like some kind of psychopath; she made sacrifices in an effort to manifest what she thought had to happen. It is a parallel to religious fanatics who can at once be extremists but not exactly psychopathic—more delusional than anything—except that in the GoT world we see that her faith is real and proven, and so she isn’t a total kook. She was in fact being the best practitioner of the magic she had to do that she could be.

In the end, Melisandre is a hero. There’s a lesson in that. Her name itself sounds like an evil Disney villainess name, with “mel” echoing “mal,” often used even in English to connote evil intentions. She wore a red cape, certainly attire that would be seen by many viewers as representative of the devil or a satanic cult or something. She worshiped fire, practiced magic, made an evil smoke baby and seemed obsessed with dark, devilish acts. Evil, right? Not on this show.

So that takes me again to subverted expectations. Melisandre was “evil,” set up years ago as due for a comeuppance, and she saved the night. Arya was a little girl who had to protect and live only for herself but became the savior of all. Bran was disabled, which made him all-powerful. Dany is the great liberator who ultimately is motivated solely by fulfilling her ego. Jon is “the one,” who is not what he was promised to be and instead fails pretty much at everything. And the all-powerful Night King controlled even the weather, only to be undone bu a pinprick from a little girl. Etc. So what is Cersei? And what will happen to her?

Cersei began as a not very nice and always plotting sidekick to her king husband. She manipulated her way to the top and became the psychopath Melisandre appeared to have been but was not. Now all the forces of mankind appear to be marching to defeat Cersei...it kind of baffles me that after having the rug pulled out from underneath every single major plot point, with every clearly drawn picture turning out to be almost its opposite, that everyone expects one of the people known to be great heroes to topple Cersei and reign supreme. What show are you watching to expect that that would be the outcome?

Also re Cersei, she is the namesake (same pronunciation) as the witch Circe from the Odyssey. Here she is pictured, as she often is, with a glass of red wine.

Here’s part of Wikipedia’s description of Circe:

“Circe was also taken as the archetype of the predatory female. In the eyes of those from a later age, this behaviour made her notorious both as a magician and as a type of the sexually free woman. As such she has been frequently depicted in all the arts from the Renaissance down to modern times.

Western paintings established a visual iconography for the figure, but also went for inspiration to other stories concerning Circe that appear in Ovid's Metamorphoses. The episodes of Scylla and Picus added the vice of violent jealousy to her bad qualities and made her a figure of fear as well as of desire. Later male interpretations were to take the metamorphoses she inflicted not just as reflecting a temptation to bestiality but as an emasculatory threat. Among women she has been portrayed more sympathetically.”

It’s possible that GRRM split the Circe archetype between Melisandre—the sexually liberated witch who can be seen in a sympathetic light, particularly by women—and Circe, the wine-loving woman who is a seductress of her own brother and who has emasculated every man she has come into contact with. In the Odyssey, Circe is welcoming and well-mannered and regal as Cersei can be thanks to her upbringing and then ultimately tricks and destroys almost all the men by turning them into pigs.

Wiki again: “From the beginning to the end of this chapter of The Odyssey, Circe devolved from a powerful, independent goddess, therefore labeled an “enchantress”, to a regular, mortal-like woman who served the needs of Odysseus and his crew, even cooking for and bathing them.”

Speaking of subverting expectations, imagine that as an ending for Cersei—not dying, but instead having all of her power and military might stripped, and ending up having to be a genial housewife type with no power at all. That is actually the very worst fate I can imagine for Cersei from her point of view.

Still thinking about the possibility of Cersei being neutered. What would that look like?

Calling back to the very first episode, we saw Sansa dedicated to needlework, being the best little domestic goddess she could be. She was the opposite of Cersei, or a reverse reflection of her: beautiful, graceful looking, but totally naive with ambitions only for a luxurious, easy life whereas Cersei had that but had ambitions for power. Cersei got her power; Sansa, thanks in part to Cersei, gor fucked over and had to ascend to power just to survive. She has been changed and she has credited Cersei many times for teaching her things she needs to know. Characters keep telling us this season how wise Sansa is, and Sansa clearly has respect for Cersei’s manipulations in a way and learned from her but has motivations for good instead of evil.

Imagine if the show were to somehow end with Sansa taking the throne from Cersei, who wouldn’t be killed (too easy, too expected), but instead somehow were relegated to living the life of needlework and impotent, meaningless domestic finery that Sansa once aspired to live, while watching Sansa rule from a distance.

I don’t know how that could possibly work out over three episodes but if we’re all rooting for Cersei to really suffer as a result of all she has done, I can’t imagine any worse fate for her than total impotence as a plain commoner or a powerless lady of the court.

#TeamCersei

Beric and Jorah had similar roles. Their character 's main purpose was to save the life of Dany and Arya. Then he died.

I have to wonder about Jon. OK. He's been brought back from death once. Thoros is gone. The Red Woman is gone. What's the point and the purpose of Jon? He's certainly not much of a strategist. IMO the whole point of Jon is his dick. He is going to make a Targaryen Baby with Daenerys .

Good thing Arya took Beric off her list...

That would've been awkward.

I don't understand the way they're handling Arya's reputation. She singlehandedly kills Walder Frey and his entire House and tells the surviving servant girls to pass the word, but no one has even mentioned it, and people like The Hound seem completely unaware of it. having happened.

Her other kills might have gone unnoticed, but that one should have gotten a "Hey, nice job on that House Fey slaughter" when she finally meets Sansa and Jon and the rest at Winterfell, but nothing . . .

Is she at least going to get credit for killing the Night King? What it's take for a girl to get a reputation?

Melisandre killed Renly and burned Shireen alive. Sure, she came and sort of helped (neither fire did anything but stall for three minutes) and maybe sort of urged Arya on with her cryptic dialogue, but she was a murderer. Their attempt at redemption was weak at best. Same with Theon.

Renly and Stannis were at war with each other. That's not murder, its effective warfare.

Mmm ok R498.

[quote] Melisandre killed Renly and burned Shireen alive. Sure, she came and sort of helped (neither fire did anything but stall for three minutes) and maybe sort of urged Arya on with her cryptic dialogue, but she was a murderer. Their attempt at redemption was weak at best. Same with Theon.

Davos served Stannis with the same devotion that Melisandre showed him. Davos did NOTHING significant in the battle with the Dead. He also has a history of just watching as men and women were burned and killed -- as recently as when Gendry and Tyrion escaped King's Landing.

All that aside, the creators of GOT really wanted us to see Melisandre as a heroic figure deserving redemption. That was apparent from the episode and her self-sacrifice. We should all recognize that by now. It was not clear what Davos was prepared to do when he found her after the battle. But if he had ill-intent he was clearly in the wrong.

I can't read anymore comments of how she "had it coming" in a show with burnings, beheadings, maiming, torture and all manner of gruesome lethal violence. It is a little nauseating that we can't even enjoy a fantasy show without our cultural misogyny coming into play.

W&W for r485

[quote] I can't read anymore comments of how she "had it coming" in a show with burnings, beheadings, maiming, torture and all manner of gruesome lethal violence. It is a little nauseating that we can't even enjoy a fantasy show without our cultural misogyny coming into play.

It’s a tv show, luv. Come in for a landing now.....

"...and Sansa clearly has respect for Cersei’s manipulations in a way and learned from her but has motivations for good instead of evil. "

Sansa is like Danerys, their primary motive is not "good", but to promote the interests of their clan. That's why Dany invaded Westeros, not to take the evil queen off the throne, but to claim her birthright as the head of House Targaryan. And Sansa is doing the same thing - she's the head of House Stark and everything she does it to claim the Stark birthright to rule the North. If that means fighting off a horde of undead, she's doing it for House Stark more than humanity as a whole.

Cersei, on the other hand, is being deliberately eeeeevil! She likes it! And no, you can't "neuter" someone like that, and Sansa knows it and Dany should, too. As long as someone like Cersei is alive and able to speak she's a danger, if you tried to reduce her to a needlewoman in Queen Danerys's court, she'd do what Sansa did: find allies, escape, start wars and kill anyone she needed to kill, anything to reclaim her birthright as the head of House Lannister.

[quote] Cersei, on the other hand, is being deliberately eeeeevil! She likes it! And no, you can't "neuter" someone like that, and Sansa knows it and Dany should, too. As long as someone like Cersei is alive and able to speak she's a danger, if you tried to reduce her to a needlewoman in Queen Danerys's court, she'd do what Sansa did: find allies, escape, start wars and kill anyone she needed to kill, anything to reclaim her birthright as the head of House Lannister.

I think it's clear that Danerys has reached that conclusion about Cersei AND Sansa. The big showdown between Danerys and Jon Snow will be about Sansa and whether the North is independently ruled.

[quote] It’s a tv show, luv. Come in for a landing now.....

No. I refuse. I am singing "Defying Gravity" from WICKED right now. I will not be ground into the dust by the oppressive male regime that has infected our world and now threatens all of the seven kingdoms.

r503, you took the words right out of my mouth. Although in the books, Cersei is indeed reduced to needlepointing after people found about Joffrey's parentage , regicide, and her public shaming.

[quote] She singlehandedly kills Walder Frey and his entire House and tells the surviving servant girls to pass the word, but no one has even mentioned it, and people like The Hound seem completely unaware of it. having happened. Her other kills might have gone unnoticed, but that one should have gotten a "Hey, nice job on that House Fey slaughter" when she finally meets Sansa and Jon and the rest at Winterfell, but nothing

Once people are dead, nobody cares about them. The Boltons are gone, so what? The legitimate Baratheons, most of house Tully, house Martell, house Tyrell, the hundreds of people in the Sept of Baylor, Lysa Arryn. Nobody will care about House Greyjoy if Euron and Yara are killed. All the people the Hound kills on his joyride through the countryside, various whores, Littlefinger, the guys Jon killed up at the Wall (Thorne, Ollie, et al), the Great Moletown Massacre (/s). Joffrey, Tommen & Myrcella are all dead, the public didn’t care; only Cersei.

Nobody even noticed when the armies from all these places didn’t show up. Everyone was supposed to know that Dorne, Stormlabds, Riverrun, the Twins, The Reach were decimated and they didn’t care. They were like “Oh, well.” Jaime doesn’t say, “Now that I think about it, it probably wasn't a good idea to massacre Grandma Martell & her Army.” It’s just a given that if you’re dead, you’re gone.

Everyone except the Starks and Sam. The Starks were bent on revenging their relatives & now, all of a sudden, Sam is sad for the brother and father who berated him and sent him to the Wall. He wants Dany to be punished for killing his double dealing, traitorous family members.

"The big showdown between Danerys and Jon Snow will be about Sansa and whether the North is independently ruled. "

It's not clear how hard Sansa is going to push for an independent North, which BTW she doesn't even officially rule. Her father bent the knee to a king and was a Lord instead of Kinginthenorth, IMHO she may accept the rule of a monarch as long as that monarch isn't Cersei. I don't think Sansa's question about the status of the North was an immovable demand, more of a trial balloon, to find out where they'd stand if Danerys got the iron throne.

And BTW the person who needs to watch out for Sansa isn't Danerys, it's Jon. She knows damn well that as Ned Stark's eldest surviving competent child it's her birthright to rule in the North, and it's nice that she was willing to put off that issue until the war with the Others was over. But it's over now, and hopefully she'll just push Jon to marry Dany and try for the Iron Throne, and not poison him once she's confirmed as his heir.

Regarding Arya and how much credit she'll get...

I think Jon is going to get all the public credit for killing the Night's King and winning the war with the Others. Partly because he's been the public face of the defense of the Living, for which he really does deserve a lot of credit even though he's an idiot, and partly because having a little girl stab the enemy in a sneak attack doesn't make for good ballads.

I'm calling it now - Frankenmountain kills the creepy Kyburn!

Because the mad scientist is ALWAYS killed by his own creation.

I don’t think Sansa is asserting she rules in the North. She thinks Jon does. And not because of Ned (who was Warden of the North—a step above Lord). Jon was proclaimed King in his own right, though as the linked article points out, God knows why.

Good read, R511, and so true.

Jon has always failed up.

Yes, Jon is a dolt and a fuckup, and has gotten many, many people killed.

But I think he's going to go down in the history of Westeros as a legendary hero, and will be given credit for things he didn't do and that other people did. Like I said, the mighty hero slaying the Night's King in single combat makes for a much better ballad than a creepy little girl killing him in a sneak attack. And it's all going to be GRRM's sly commentary on the nature of legendary heroes and the Fantasy genre.

R494, I thought Dany can’t have children. If the Targaryens are going to continue, Jon will have to marry someone else—which would, of course, make for a “bittersweet” ending, as GRRM has promised.

Technically Gendry is a Targaryen too (Robert had a Targ great?grandmother) So I guess there’s more than one.

R515 I don’t think we know Dany can’t have a baby. Khal Drogo impregnated her and she delivered a stillborn whom the medicine woman told her had scales and batlike wings. She did develop a fetus. I suspect it wasn’t viable because the father wasn’t a Targaryen. Aren’t most of them inbred? Jon is half Targaryen apparently but I suspect that Dany would be able to gestate a dragon baby or maybe, I guess, lay eggs?

Dany thinks she's infertile, but that's only because of a witch's curse back in season 1.

All we really know is that she's delivered one stillborn child, and didn't get knocked up by Dario.

I would laugh my ass off if Dany literally laid an egg. That would be too much, lol!

That actress lays an egg at least once every episode.

Yeah R519 as I wrote that I giggled to myself but also wondered...where do the eggs come from if she is the mother of dragons?

On the analysis after the Episode3, David Benioff said only a Targaryen can ride and bond with a dragon, and that should have been Dany's first clue Jon Snow was more than he appeared. I'm thinking Dany can get pregnant if she is impregnated by another Targ. So now Aegon Targaryen is going to knock up his aunt. LOL! Good. You have a Tarley, A Baratheon, and two Starks. Where are the Tullys ? There have to be more Lannisters and Tyrells too. In the books there were extended families.

“On the analysis after the Episode3, David Benioff said only a Targaryen can ride and bond with a dragon, and that should have been Dany's first clue Jon Snow was more than he appeared.”

Then that should have been our first clue, too, that the Night King is a Targaryen. He rode and commanded fire from a dragon and he withstood dragonfire the way Dany can.

R508, it is already afoot. Danerys has Sansa in her cross hairs. Danerys was about to go RHOA on Sansa and rip her weave out just as they were interrupted. Sansa is an enemy because she doesn't recognize Danerys as Queen and believes the North should be sovereign.

Honestly, I don't know what is motivating Sansa at this point. She seems at odds with everyone and that moment with Tyrion in the crypt was just weird. It is unclear if she is on Jon's side and she is clearly against Danerys. She seems suspicious of Arya and indifferent to Brann. So who and what does she care about, and what does she want?

I just rewatched scenes of Melisandre with Jon Snow and it was contrary to everything everyone thinks of Jon. She was asked to help Jon by bringing him back to life, abd she responded, “if you want to help him, leave him dead.” (Foreshadowing perhaps her own exhaustion and looking forward to dying after serving LoL’s demands.)

After she brought him back, Jon asked why she did it. She said, “I don’t have that power. The Lord of Light did it.”

He asked Melisandre not to bring him back if he is wounded again. “I’ll have to try,” she said.

“Why did he do it?” Jon asked.

“I don’t know. Maybe for you to die again.”

This was after she looked deeply into Arya’s eyes and recognized who she was. So Melisandre knew Jon was not a savior, and she resisted bringing him back and appears only to have done it in retrospect because people asked her to. When Jon came back and asked what made him special, she couldn’t even think of anything and said maybe you’re only here to die again.

Maybe he is nothing more than a red herring.

Well they did tell us very blatantly and often that Jon Snow knows nothing.

I'm predicting that in episode 4 Sansa will give Jon...and maybe Daenerys good advice about Cersei, and Jon will not heed it.

I am amused to hear people I know saying they feel bad about it, but suddenly they don’t care what happens to Danerys or even hope she doesn’t get the throne in the end.

A lot of people somehow seem completely blind to the fact that the writers have written Danerys as increasingly less honorable, less likable, and less worthy of ruling. It’s kind of funny, as if people think of Danerys as a longtime friend to whom they are obligated to feel loyal despite her obvious failings. The long-game aspect of this series really has worked in its favor by creating characters so complex that people are resistant to accepting them as they are written now versus who they once were.

In my opinion, Jon Snow's death and rebirth was nothing more than a plot device to get him out of his Night's Watch vows and contribute to the story without being tied to the wall and his "brothers."

Obviously that was an intent, R529, but it was also done to make Jon look ultra-heroic and Messiah-ish, the Prince Who Was Promised and Azor Ahai Reborn.

And so far he's totally failed to live up to that kind of buildup, which has gotten me thinking that he's going to end up as the kind of false hero who's acclaimed throughout the land because he's given credit for other people's deeds, like killing the Night's King.

It's hard because there are two things happening. We have the novels and the show. Killing Jon Snow was a GRRM decision, what has happened to is arc after that is a David and Dan decision.

You can't really get the full picture until GRRM finishes the series, which might not ever happen.

Actually Jon is a very brave fighter. He's also a very good fighter. Fearless. Foolish, and emotional. All that. He's not a good strategist. He is way too honorable and too idealistic, admired for it, but definitely a flawed man, but he's not a bad person. He is just incomplete in a way. He needs Sansa or a Davos, or Tyrion, or Dany to balance his character. Jaime, Tyrion, Jon, all are flawed people with possibly fatal weaknesses.

Now that Jorah is dead and Tyrion keeps pissing her off, Dany's going to get worse. More paranoid, less empathetic.

R532 is totally correct about Jon. He's the most decent major character in the show, and has real strengths as a warrior and an inspiring leader, but he's an idiot when it comes to strategy and politics.

He'd make an ideal figurehead ruler. The sort of handsome, decent, likeable man who'd always look good and impress everyone who saw him with his decency, fairness, and caring nature... and who'd damn well let someone like Sansa or Tyrion actually run his government. And let someone else be the general of his armies and do all the strategy, while he rode in the vanguard and looked noble.

Can someone link the episode 4 thread here? I suck at finding it with search.

Thanks!

Here ya go r535.

You're a star, r536. 💋

It'll be interesting to see how they manipulate time and distance tonight when they move all the chess pieces from Winterfell into position near King's Landing.

They have leaks and pictures and videos and if this is an accurate leak, e tc. I am seriously pissed off.

So here is the most epic take-down of this episode ever... rips it to shreds for being the absolute worst episode of the series, and backs it all up:

There was a lot of foreshadowing last season that Dany was going to get knocked up with Jon's baby. But now, after watching Sunday's episode, I feel like she's going to end up dying, so I now I'm not so sure.

It was a nice surprise seeing that mini-reunion between Sansa and Sandor. I was hoping they'd eventually have a discussion about "what if" she'd left King's Landing with him. Some nice closure there.

But I had a big laugh at Jon telling Sansa and Arya, YOU HAVE TO PINKY SWEAR YOU WON'T TELL A SOUL ABOUT WHO MY REAL DA-DA IS! After all this time, he's still naive. I knew Sansa would blab the first chance she got.

R541, thats' episode 8.4, not episode 8.3

See link for THAT thread just a few posts above.

R540, kinda wish the writers and directors would watch that video, then go back in time and do the episode better.

I can dismiss about 10 percent of the points made in that video, but the rest are spot-on.

If Sansa had left with the Hound she would have died at the Red Wedding.

If only.

And she would have been broken in rough all the same. And gotten her revenge, I'm sure, the Hound had damn well better be grateful she turned him down.

I can't find the most recent thread for some reason (the new search function SUCKS), but I wanted to share this...

Why everyone thinks the writing is so bad this season:

I came here to post that, R546!

I wonder if we need a new thread. I think we will.

r544 Right?? Sansa is so useless. Can't see what people like about her.

WHERE IS THE NEXT THREAD? The episode 5 thread is full, and I can't find any new thread to discuss!

R549, Sansa has saved Jon Snow's ass many times (most obviously at the Battle of the Bastards). She's hardly "useless".