American Crime Story: Versace OFFICIAL THREAD PART TWO

Link to Thread One

[quote]Starring Ricky Martin

As the "Beaver?"

OMG OMG OMG!!!!

I can’t follow this. And I read the book!

Interview with Max Greenfield

I wondered that when I read the book and thought of that again as I watched the show.

Andrew Cunanan used fake identification when he checked into the hotel, but when he pawned he Lee Miglin's gold coin he used his real name and address. He was basically telling the police to come find him. They did not.

Max Greenfield pings.

Edgar Ramirez reminds me of a lion. Probably due to the shape of his mouth and his wide face. Anyone else see it?

Ricky is in terrific shape. Good for him!

There is an actor who reminds me of Edgar Ramirez. I just can't pinpoint who it is.

The guy from Just Shoot Me?

Has anybody hooked up with Edgar, or know who has?

R10 Yes, thank you.

Was that an uncredited James Franco cameo at the very end in the disco?

Did Ricky get eye work done? Or too much makeup?

Penelope’s Castilian accent still bothered me.

So next episode we focus on the Lee Miglin murder. I guess the Reece murder will only get a brief scene since it got no mention in the preview and it would be the next murder.

If that was Ricky's big sex scene I'm disappointed! I hope there's another ass shot/sex scene later on

I also expected a bit more from that sex scene!

Until I saw a picture of Ramirez au naturel I had no idea how great a job they did making him into Versace.

And a belated WW to whoever said Ricky did a great acting job--playing a top!

That guy in the cage with the angel wings was gorgeous. Who is he? Anyone know?

R13, he looked a lot more like Dave than James.

R20, some WeHo whore. The disco scene was filmed in LA.

Next episode skips to San Diego and shows the killing of the 2 guys and then goes backwards the next episode to tell there story. I told you I've seen a bunch of episodes. I think Lee Miglin is in 6 and 7 (could be 4 and 5 don't remember) but Judith Light plays her husband and get ready for major scenery chewing my Judith Light.

*their I'll give myself an" OH DEAR."

A huge problem with the series is is unwieldy title. I was just in Hollywood and people in the television industry were referring to it as "Versace" for short, but I don't think anyone in the rest of the country knows quite what they're supposed to call it.

R22 Bullshit it's already been spoiled that Lee Miglin is only in the next episode.

Ricky is real hot for a 46 year old.

Judith Light was all dolled up like a 90s moneyed frau in those previews...

After this, Judith will stay in hair & makeup to join the contestants on Rupaul's Drag Race.

I really liked Edgar Ramirez in this episode. His insecurity before the fashion show was really adorable.

I never even knew Donatella designed anything. That was interesting. And also that she was into the whole anorexic model thing whereas Gianni wanted normal girls. Can't blame the gays for that ... and I've heard SO many fraus do that, btw.

R14, Ricky's eyes were unfortunately made up to be hooded. And he apparently was told to never (except for the hop into bed) smile. Nonetheless, he is and always has been physically fit.

The down-and-out Miami guy is superb acting. And Mike Farrell as Lee Miglin, as well.

The cigarette as symbol of Donatella's toughness was a tad overdone.

I'll be interested in finding out who will be the competition for Darren's Emmy.

yes the max guy , his buddy at the hote. is brilliant actor.

criss so dam hot in them salmon undie: thick ass n legs yumz.

sumthin off with the script, not sure what it is, continuity or lack of it.

edgar is the best, penelope meh...her veneers are laughable , sounds like a paper shredder...

R32, I think what might be "off" is that a familiarity by the audience with the story is assumed.

R33 is right.

And it doesn't help matters that they are fucking around with the timeline & jumping back & forth endlessly. Also, introducing & dumping characters who nobody (without having read all the books / articles) will know are real or fictional is also confusing. I thought maybe the hooker "friend" of Cunanan was going to be a part of the rest of the series, but he's apparently done. I was wondering if he was one of the people who talked about his experience or if he's fiction, but I'd have to google it (though per the posters here, it seems he was real). Likewise, I was wondering about the John who had a 5000-person company and almost called 911.

There's no point to non-linear storytelling unless it makes the story more interesting somehow.

yea, it does jump about too much.

but i think murphy luvs that shit

I just caught up on ep 1 and 2 tonight, and have to say, so far I’m liking it much more than I thought I would. Some takeaways:

First off, the music, the club scenes, the overall “vibe” (for lack of a better word) really captured the 90’s I thought.

I think the actors have been better than expected (Ricky Martin) to spot on (Édgar Ramírez). I am enjoying how Darren Criss is playing Andrew Cunanan. Most actors when playing a real life figure usually have something to go on, to study - writings, interviews, videos, etc.. There’s none of that with AC, so other than Orth’s book and some other questionable first hand accounts of AC, there’s nothing to go on. As has been said, this isn’t a documentary so dramatic license is expected, which is where I’m falling w/r/t Criss’ AC.

From what I remember about the Versace family, they weren’t especially tolerant/accepting/happy about Gianni’s homosexuality. Donatella has been quoted after as saying she never liked Antonio and blamed him for her brother’s choices as she put it. I think they addressed this in the scene after Gianni comes home from the hospital where Donatella laid the blame on Antonio.

As for the Will, again if I remember correctly, Gianni actually changed his will lowering the percentages he left to Santo and Donatella and left the majority to Allegra, after a string of disagreements with his siblings, particularly Donatella. This wasn’t known and supposedly pissed off D to no end. No surprise then that she took advantage of Antonio's grief and depression with just a lump sum of a few million vs the $26K a month for life he was willed.

As an aside, as noted on this or the previous thread, gents please make sure your wishes are known and written down, whether you’re married, partnered, or single. Not just with a Will either - make sure you have Medical Proxies and Powers of Attorney as well. It made me sad what the family did to Antonio - but I’ve known it to happen in other families especially with the “gay one” and it’s just wrong.

Anyway, looking forward to ep 3 now, and add my voice to the chorus saying how damn good Ricky Martin is looking! My oh my! Imagine a three way with Ricky and Édgar (as themselves, not the characters)? Swoon!!

It's been so long since I read the book. I think the hustler character is a composite or otherwise fictionalized.

I definitely don't remember anything like the scene with the old, rich guy. The only use of duct tape like that in the book was with Miglin.

Orth did say AC was into E-stim torture.

(If you meet a gay guy with the initials AC, run for your life. He'll be a freak or a creep.)

R24: We're supposed to refer to the series title as The Assassination of Gianni Versace by the Coward Andrew Cunanan

Ronnie is a real person. Basically just like he was depicted in the show, he also was staying at the same motel and hooked Andrew into the local drug and escorting scene. I doubt we will see him again since the rest of the story is before Cunanan comes to Miami.

The scene with the old guy and duct tape is a fictionalized account of a possible escorting session Cunanan might have had in Miami.

I get how this show might be confusing if you aren't already familiar with case.

Here I thought that the old guy picked up on the beach was supposed to be Miglin.

Im not confused and i don't know the case. Didn't have thoughts after first episode but now i think criss is doing a good job. Ricky looks old to me and skinny. I know other mid 40s guys that are too sexy. Cruz and Ramirez feel mad spanish but my native Italian boyfriend says Ramirez really captures being italian. The Miami hustler was good. He could play Emory in TBITB. He was also on will and grace recently and i didn't like him but he was great here. Something about Darren's body looks funny to me.

Were they smoking crack? Or was that meth?

[quote] Something about Darren's body looks funny to me.

Agree, not sexy. Puffy in the wrong places, somewhat feminine.

Holy Shit! That was Max Greenfield! Unrecognizable.

Criss is really creeping me out as AC, and I guess that’s a good thing. The series is a lot sadder than I expected but I guess all murder shows are. The 90’s music brings me right back.

Criss's competition: Taylor Kitch in Waco, Al Pacino in Paterno, Bill Skarsgard is playing something in some Stephen King series (don't know if limited). I'm sure there'll be others. He is lucky Fargo is taking a break this year.

He plays to me as if Blaine from Glee was a serial killer.

[quote]The series is a lot sadder than I expected but I guess all murder shows are

It'd be pretty fucked up if a show about a guy who murdered four innocent people was a happy little number.

The duct tape, red undies dance scene was a little too Jamie Gumb it rubs the lotion....

No, I get what R45 is saying.There's a different energy in this series than there was with the OJ series. With OJ there was anger and the spectacle of it, but with this it's just a sadness and a sense of impending doom. Maybe its bcz of the way the narrative is structured?

[quote]Criss's competition: Taylor Kitch in Waco, Al Pacino in Paterno, Bill Skarsgard is playing something in some Stephen King series (don't know if limited). I'm sure there'll be others. He is lucky Fargo is taking a break this year.

I watched the first episode of Waco and Taylor Kistch's acting is pretty bad in some parts. I can't see Kitsch being up for any awards.

I have't seen Waco, but Kitsch did not impress in "The Normal Heart" (I actually thought he was embarrassingly bad there) or "True Detective"

Yea taylor kitsch is bad.

Blessed are the naive who think only good performances get nominated and even win.

Lens won for playing herself, and the less said about Emmy nominee Kit Harrington the better. Emilia Clarke of all people got more Emmy noms than Tatiana Maslany. Gaga got a GG for being Gaga.

I forgot that Lee Miglin was part of this.

I knew a queen who worked for Marilyn Miglin for years and heard of her, and I know I've heard about Lee before, but must have forgotten.

A very curious article. Very very curious.

Darren Criss is a slighly better actor than Taylor Kitsch.

Criss and Max Greenfield briefly appeared on AHS Hotel. Max G. Wad memorable while Criss was very hammy. He's hit or miss

Darren Criss is killing it!!

[quote]I watched the first episode of Waco and Taylor Kistch's acting is pretty bad in some parts. I can't see Kitsch being up for any awards.

Though, he does have better abs than Criss.

Agree r57, Criss missed the mark in his AHS cameo. The girl he shared his scene with was better.

Max Greenfield will be nominated for channelling Dustin Hoffman as Ratso Rizzo in Midnight Cowboy

Max Greenfield felt real, not like a performance, which is always a sign of great acting.

Now that The New Girl is over I bet Murphy gives him a starring role in something. He is begging Murphy to do that in that interview.

[quote]Max G. Wad memorable

His jiggling ass was certainly memorable.

I have to say, I hate the show The New Girl, and I never liked Max Greenfield, but after seeing him in Hello, My Name Is Doris, AHS,....and as BooBoo on Bobs Burgers, he has a new fan.

I've had a soft spot for Max ever since Deputy Leo

I enjoyed the scene with the fake Donatella. Versace's response was very charming. I could see how people liked him.

[quote]Max G. Wad memorable

Pics please of said wad.

[quote]Max Greenfield felt real, not like a performance, which is always a sign of great acting.

Yep. I've had a crush on him since Ugly Betty and it took me some time to realize it was him. He really fell into the character. When Andrew is showering on the beach and water gets splashed on him and he says, "Andy" while wiping his face just looked so damn real. I don't know why that stuck out in my mind.

They cribbed lots of real anecdotes from this episode.

The person from the sub shop that recognized Andrew from American Most Wanted was real.

Andrew using his real name and addy when pawned the coin was real.

Andrew telling a guy at a gay bar in Miami that he was a serial killer was real. (And this was the same gay bar, Twist, where the FBI had been warned he might go to).

Someone at the club thought they recognized Andrew and looked all over the club for a flier to see if it was him. They couldn't find a flier in the club, because there wasn't one. They still warned the door guy that they think they might have had a serial killer there.

Who has the nicer ass, Darren or Ricky?

Darren has the bigger ass. He is built thick, even though some poster upthread apparently doesn't like that about him.

Ricky's ass is fairly nice but I prefer Darrens.

[quote]I have to say, I hate the show The New Girl, and I never liked Max Greenfield, but after seeing him in Hello, My Name Is Doris, AHS,....and as BooBoo on Bobs Burgers, he has a new fan.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Just saw him in The Talk, and the man is so dreamy!

Max Greenfield really stole the second episode. He was heartbreaking. I know quite a lot about this case and i'm still confused by the back and forth structure of the story. A casual viewer would probably feel lost after 10 minutes and stop watching. How's the ratings?

R69 neither

R74 wrong

R75 Ricky's ass is tiny and Darren's is flat.

[quote] yes the max guy , his buddy at the hote. is brilliant actor.

Thank you, Rich Russian Lady, for weighing in.

Since Ricky is too old for the role, his face seems CGI-enhanced.

He is 8 years older than Antonio was I believe, yes too old, but not by some crazy margin.

It's called makeup and lighting. He looks dark orange at some points due to this.

HD isnt kind to Ricky’s acne scars

You know, ...those flyers. As I watched last night I got so damned angry. If they had just distributed the fucking flyers. who knows. The police were generally rotten pieces of shit. Just pass the fucking flyers around. especially at the gay clubs in South beach. What five clubs?

He does look orange r80. I notice it ever time hes's on screen.

Still doable...

It's difficult finding good makeup for darker skin and sometimes I think Ricky uses makeup that is darker than his skin color. Almost like he has a couple shades and he uses those whether he tanned or not.

Look. Tad Devine was Paul Manafort's business partner. They worked together. They fucked with the election in the Ukraine on behalf of Russia and pulled some of the same shit there that happened here. Then Tad Devine convinces the Useful Idiot from Vermont to run. and he does it enthusiastically. He was going to run in 2012, but decided against it. Sound familiar? Like Trump was going to run in 2012, but decided against it.

Anyway, the big news, which the Media reported in passing, but certainly never highlighted it, is that Bernie and Jane's PR company, and Tad Devine, who joined their "company," made a fortune on commissions from media buys during the Presidential campaign. We're talking about in the neighborhood of $22 Million.

So when you start to wonder why some assholes like Huckabee or Gingrich, or some of these other bottom feeders run for POTUS with absolutely no chance in winning, now you know why. And if they can land themselves some millionaire backers or even better the billionaire backers and you convince them you're dead without the $$ to buy air time on TV well that's all they need.

Man r85, I'm really lost when it comes to this show.

R69 Ricky

If the duct tape guy had called the police, what would he have said? “I hired a weird escort and I’m scared of him?”

Wow! R85 here. Ignore my post. That was supposed to go on the Bernie thread. Sorry. Now I have to try to cut and paste it to the Bernie thread too. I wish there was a way to delete or edit a fucking post.

And here I thought Cunanan fucked Tad Devine back in the 90s.

[quote]As I watched last night I got so damned angry. If they had just distributed the fucking flyers. who knows. The police were generally rotten pieces of shit

Maureen titled her book "the largest failed manhunt in FBI history"

Murphy titled this season "the assassination of Gianni Versace"

Both of them look at Versace's death as something that was very preventable.

Did the Versace or another victim's family ever sue a law enforcement agency?

[quote]That guy in the cage with the angel wings was gorgeous. Who is he? Anyone know?

Maverick McConnell

i didn't see Donatella as a "cunt" as a poster said earlier. She blamed Antonio for Gianni's HIV status: maybe it's not fair, but being positive in the 90s was a real tragedy. And having to hide that for a million reasons made that even worse.

I really like what Penelope is doing here. Her entrance scene alone in the pilot was worth it.

Ricky is a very good looking guy but Antonio was (is?) fucking gorgeous. Damn.

A quick look at his twitter r93 and I see this

[quote]Can’t wait for when my acting career takes off and all the dumb overly sexual selfies I’ve taken & posted over the years come up everywhere... #not #lol I grew up in the “Tumblr Boy” era when that’s what you did you gain followers. #oops

Don't start imagining that academy award just yet dear....

He sucked Murphy's dick, didn't he.

I hate that Santo Versace, the third sibling that founded Versace and made it a global empire as a CEO, is depicted as a glorified butler on this show. I understand it's for dramatic reasons, but still.

Is Santo the guy with Donatella when she arrives, the one that never speaks?

I agree r82. I don't understand what the problem was with just distributing those. What were they being so coy about? I'm glad Daya took it upon herself to xerox some at least... but the scene in episode 1 when they opened the trunk with 100s of boxed flyers was insane.

The pawn shop woman could've identified him easily, if she had the info. At least the hamburger / cashier guy called the police but looks like Cunanan figured it out too fast.

yes, R100.

is the latina detective, the one angry about the flyers, supposed to be a lesbian?

She seemed VERY lesbian-ish to me r103.

R104 I agree.

[quote]I agree [R82]. I don't understand what the problem was with just distributing those. What were they being so coy about?

I also don't get that either and it's totally pisses me off. The Miami PD also fucked up by not regularly checking the pawn shop slips that were sent to the police.

Yes, the detective was apparently a very well-known lesbian.

Oh shit r99, I thought he was Donatella's boyfriend. Had no idea he was a Versace sibling.

I obviously need to pay more attention.

R108, you ain’t the only one. I thought he was her fuck buddy from back home, too.

[quote]The pawn shop woman could've identified him easily, if she had the info.

As is protocol, the form was also sent to the police. Just no one in Miami PD ever bothered to be on the look out for Cunanan's name even though he was on the 10 most wanted list. As they depicted in episode one, after he shot Versace they realized info on Cunanan with his address was sitting on their desk.

Ben Mankiewicz and the group discuss the second episode.

I started the first episode twice but couldn't finish it as it's just too cringy for me. I'll watch these reviews instead and if they're effusive in their praise enough, I'll binge it when it wraps up. But to be honest, I'm only interested in Donatella and nothing else.

IIRC, one of the excuses was that they didn't want to cause a panic in South Beach (i.e. hurt business). Well, when a serial killer walks amongst you, perhaps a pinch of panic is in order.

R110 How frustrating.

{25} you think I'm lying about seeing the episodes? LOL I have. The timelines are so all over the place in this show I could be off by one. I know they go backwards. Ok I'll give you a scene that was made up and didn't happen. The gay guy who was in the military gives an secret interview with his face blacked out about being gay in the military. That did NOT happen in real life. Just know there is a LONG shot of Darren Criss walking out to the pool from behind where you see his ass and he jumps in the pool. There is a scene by the pool where he gets " all of the people I love" into a group photo and it's sad because none of them really love him.

{31} lee miglin has not appeared yet. He is in a two episodes.

[R114] Does Darren Criss have any sex scenes?

[quote]Ok I'll give you a scene that was made up and didn't happen. The gay guy who was in the military gives an secret interview with his face blacked out about being gay in the military. That did NOT happen in real life.

No Jeff Trail gave an interview about being gay in the military with his face blacked out. That happened in real life.

Darren is false Max AMAZING

If they had distributed the fliers at those clubs or around the beach areas, maybe the guy Max played would have seen it and told the cops this guy kept talking about Versace.They didn't have to say he was a serial killer. All they had to do is say he was wanted for questioning for murder. He was on the fucking FBI top ten list for fuck's sake. They should have done more.Definitely homophobia that killed Versace.

I didn't know Gianni Versace was HIV Pos. When did that come out? After he died, I'm sure, but how long after?

[quote]I didn't know Gianni Versace was HIV Pos. When did that come out? After he died, I'm sure, but how long after?

Maureen made it public in her book that came out in 1999.

R119 The real life Ronnie didn't have a lot of interaction with Cunanan. That stuff was made up for the show. In real life, it seemed he asked Cunanan about the red truck and didn't get an answer. Now, maybe the flyers were distrubuted around Miami and just not at gay clubs, maybe Ronnie or the hotel manager would have recognized Cunanan.

Nah r121, Maureen's book paints a similar relationship we see in the episode. Some quotes from her book where she interviews Ronnie.

[quote]“Andrew was a hustler. I knew that from the moment I saw him. He was on the take. I set him up. He was very, very generous.” Ronnie is a sky-blue-eyed, forty-three-year-old Normandy Plaza resident with long, stringy blond hair, usually barefoot, who is gay, HIV positive, and living on disability.

[quote]“What happened was, I was sitting out back one day. He walks by and I’m looking at him, scoping him. ”‘You see something you like?’ Andrew asks. “'Yeah,’ I said. ‘You’ve got a cute ass. I could make some money off you.’ ”'How could you make money?’ “'You hustle?’ ”'I’ve done that before,’ Andrew said. “I asked him how big he was, and he told me. I brought him up here and he showed me. I picked up the phone. That’s how it got started.” He told Ronnie his name was Andy, and Ronnie helped him become a hotel-back-gate man. “He never said where he was from. I set him up with a few old men, old rich guys around here. They would use my room. I got money that way. ” Ronnie claimed he knew a “sir,” knighted by the Queen, “older than God, worth ninety-three million,” whom he had met while working at a chic church in nearby Bal Harbour. “Wealthiest people in the world live there… Saks and Neiman and Gucci all have stores. Bob Dole and Sir are members of the same church.” Sir was Ronnie’s first fix-up for Andrew. According to Ronnie, Andrew also made his own pickups, on the gay cruising beach, which was five blocks away, or a the hotel next door catering to German tourists.“One day this guy he brought in had a Cartier bracelet,” Ronnie says. “When he came in, he was wearing the Cartier. When he left the building, he didn’t have it on.”

He also mentions the disappearring into the bathroom thing, which is where the show decided to explain with the tape.

[quote]When high, [Andrew would] disappear into the bathroom. “I had no idea what he was doing,” says Ronnie, who maintains that they never had sex. Ronnie was merely Andrew’s facilitator; he took umbrage whenever people at the hotel referred to him as Andrew’s bitch. “I’d go and cop and he’d give me twenty bucks, which is great. He never said anything as to why he was here. I copped for him. There’s other people who went out and copped for him. I knew what he was doing. He was hiding. I didn’t know it was for killing people.

[117] hmm I did not know that. Anyway I've seen most of the episodes.

One of the things they're taking liberties with about the show is that, although at his best Andrew Cunanan had the fit body of Darren Criss, he did not during his two weeks in Miami when he murdered Versace. In fact, one of the things that set him off before his rampage was that he had gained a lot of weight and felt he was losing his attractiveness.

Another quote from Ronnie I liked

[quote] "For people who are straight, the gay world is like any other. What the gay world is, is if you take care of me, I'll take care of you. In the gay community we are all a close-knit people. We don't reveal."

as someone stated in that video, the one little problem of the show:

you dont give a FUCK about ANYONE!

Ryan as a gay man is strange

I give a fuck about Edgar and Ricky kissing, does that count

Darren in his orange speedo

you tell me-

Does it?

[quote]you dont give a FUCK about ANYONE!

I mean the lead character is a serial killer (or spree killer whatever).

But you are supposed to care about his victims. The first episodes focused on the Versace family and now will go back and spend an episode with Lee, David and Jeff and the idea is your heart will break with each person cut down.

okay R130--I'll meet you back here to see if my heart's still in one piece. Do you like the show or feel anything for the characters so far?

Yes, I am quite enjoying the show and feel invested. Felt for Max Greenfield's character quite a lot this past episode.

Of course I am also fascinated with this case and have read Maureen's book twice, so granted I was primed to be excited about this show.

Why did Andrew cover his head with tape in the bathroom before he took a shower?

Yes Max was unbelievably good!!1 He's a force to be reckoned with. So great! Loved him in that Sally Field movie Doris as well.

If only Criss was as good. His dancing freaked me out.

Almost lost my dinner.

R133 maybe that was a device the show uses to reference what he did to Miglin.

R133 i think it was just for creepy effect.

I wonder why Ryan likes the Creepy? Anyone know his past?

[quote]maybe that was a device the show uses to reference what he did to Miglin.

Yeah, Cunanan cover's Lee Miglin's face with tape when he kills him. It is establishing it is a fetish of his.

R137 Maybe hes just drawn to intense and odd stuff.

I wonder whatever became of Ronnie.

I wonder what too r140. Max Greenfield mentioned he didn't even know if the real Ronnie was still alive.

If anyone could track him down it would be fun to hear his thoughts on the episode.

If you have hair on your head, it won’t be fun when you try to remove the duck tape. It won’t just side off like it did for Darren on TV.

Yeah that is the thing that bugged me about the duct tape scene r142, on what planet can you duct tape you hair and then just take it off no harm done?!?

All the relevant gifs of Darren from the episode.

I need to put subtitles on everytime the Versaces speak.

Max Greenfield is pretty good in this episode.

[quote] i didn't see Donatella as a "cunt" as a poster said earlier. She blamed Antonio for Gianni's HIV status: maybe it's not fair, but being positive in the 90s was a real tragedy.

That doesn't excuse her behavior one bit. I think "cunt" is exactly the word that fits.

She accused Antonio of being the instigator of random sex, open relationship, etc but is that shown to be true? I'm not watching that closely. Maybe Versace wanted his bf to bring in the. fresh meat. Versace could set ALL the rules of how he was having sex so if he got HIV it was his choice of actions, assuming he got it after 84 or 85 of course.

I think once Gianni realized he was pos. he stopped having sex and just watched Antonio get it on with other guys. But in the episode that aired the other night there was that bittersweet exchange between Gianni and Antonio, where Antonio said "I don't want this anymore. All I want is you. I want to marry you." I got verklempt. They were standing on the sidewalk outside one of their clubs.

He said that in the pool. Gianni replied you say that in the morning but will you say it at night. And they went to the club that evening.

Oh you're right, I'm watching it now. He says it AGAIN, exactly the same way, when they walk out of the club.

The writing is strange in this series.

did Versace really walked to clubs and back home? Didn't he have a chauffer??

Reading an unauthorized bio on Versace and his business Donatella never was happy that her brother was openly gay. Deep down in heart she loved her brother but she was also Italian and Italian men aren't gay.

i wonder if she now has changed her views about gay men.

Doubtful R154. My SIL is Italian and has been married to my brother for 20 years and still uses anti-gay slurs around me.

so weird, Donatella lived among gay men all of her life...

Yes italians are very much against gay

R156 Remember that Bette Midler opposed gay marriage.

I looked up info on William Reese, the NJ cemetery caretaker who was killed after Lee Miglin. His wife died several years after him. His son had some weird gofundme to raise money to travel as a minister. He didn't receive any donations. The son was arrested for trying to solicit sex with undercover cop thinking it was a teenage girl he met online.

William Reese does appear in the next episode according to IMDB. I think it will be brief scene of Cunanan going to the caretaker's house and forcing him into the basement and getting the keys to the truck and then killing him. From articles, I read on Reese he was a nice guy who was into history and liking working at the cemetary because Civil War soldiers were buried there. A few articles mentioned that the cemetery and the caretaker house were somewhat isolated and that Cunanan might have been watching the area for awhile and likely spent time in a nearby state park.

Is Ryan Murphy directing all the episodes?

R124, that's right he was heavier and puffier at the end. Also hairless. Darren Criss has some I noticed.

Connection: Criss was born in San Francisco, a city where Cunanan spent some time.

R160 No

Easy gig for AC. Tape the guy’s head then eat steak, lobster & drink champagne. Didn’t even have to have sex with the old fuck.

R164 Hoping that at some point later in the season Criss has a sex scene, unlike that weird tape scene, considering AC was an escort.

[quote]did Versace really walked to clubs and back home? Didn't he have a chauffer??

I wondered about the part about walking to clubs. A couple of articles said it was common for him to walk around his neighborhood alone during the day. There was one article it might have been Orth's VF one that said during his morning walks to the newsstand an assistant accompanied him and the day of the murder the assistant couldn't go. Cunanan had been watching him and was caught on camera footage around the newsstand the day before the murders. I wonder if Cunanan was ready to gun down anyone with Versace.

Twist club is only a few blocks from his home in South Beach. Like a 5 minute walk.

[quote]I wonder if Cunanan was ready to gun down anyone with Versace.

He killed William Reese who was no one to him, just someone who was alone whose car he needed.

He clearly had no issue with collateral damage.

Yes, but in episode one it shows him pointing a gun at someone who chased him after he shot gianni Versace, and he pointed the gun at the guy but didnt shoot him.

Empty show

[quote]Why did Andrew cover his head with tape in the bathroom before he took a shower?

It wasn't the Four Seasons. They didn't supply a shower cap.

This is a FABULOUSLY bitchy interview with Verace's bf. He is now 58 and still looks good.

Not all that bitchy, really.

I am too lazy to go back and watch the scene but was Ricky Martin's character kissing that trick's feet before he hopped out of bed? I know that's his thing in real life.

From R172's interview, it appears Elton John is a tattle tale, and that he may have hit on Versace's BF after Versace died.

Can you imagine what a catty person R173 is to not think "Donatella always thought she was brilliant but you can never have two geniuses in one family.” etc. is not all that bitchy?

R176 The fact that he did not use the much-deserved "c-word" in talking about Donatella, makes that a rather gracious interview.

That article makes is clear that Donatella was hideously unattractive BEFORE her brother died. He flattering photos are thanks to Photoshop.

So his will left everything to Santo, his niece and nephew, and ALL of his homes to Antonio???? Mmmmkayyy.

The fashion show scene where Donatella says they'll wait and see who's designs the crowd likes more, hers of his, was hard to watch. When the crowd was clapping loudly for Gianni's designs and just giving a courtesy applause for Donatella's must have been hard for her to accept.

Everything I have ever seen makes me think Donatella is an awful human.

Except people don't clap at this kind of fashion show. It was stupid TV series bullshit.

People definitely clap during fashion shows, and they did so even more often in the 90s.

Yes they do clap at couture shows.

When jaded editors & VIPs clap it’s a REAL compliment.

Stop R181, you're embarrassing yourself.

Perhaps you girls have this confused with Ebony Fashion Flair. People don't clap. For the bride yes. The set up was ridiculous in the ep.

What r184 said. Just stop.

Keep digging R185.

I dont know what kind of show that was supposed to be on this ep. It served the narrative. The first Atelier Versace (couture) was 1992 then always in Paris and there isn't this kind of clapping through a show. I worked at the haute couture shows from 91 to 94.

Yeah R188, you worked the sidewalks outside the shows.

I wasn't a model I videoed them.

After reading the boyfriend's interview at R172 link, I don't understand why he gave up all of Gianni's houses? He said he gave the houses back to the Versace family because of taxes, but he could have just sold them and paid whatever taxes were owed. After taxes, he would have profited millions. It doesn't make any sense.

I have a feeling the boyfriend is dumb as a rock. No wonder Donatella didn't like him and wanted him out of the picture.

Versace didn't leave all of his houses to Antonio. He allowed him to live in them if he wanted to. The houses were still property of the Versace family.

Exactly. Unfortunately for Antonio, Versace gave the vague directive of "he had a right to live in them", he didn't actually put them in Antonio's name.

I think Gianni thought that in the even of his passing his siblings would have respected his wishes for Antonio. They didn't and he should have left one of the homes outright to Antonio.

GIven that Antonio wasn't going to have kids, he wanted to make sure Antonio was set for life, while keeping everything in the Versace family long-term.

But yes, he underestimated Donatella's dislike for Antonio.

"Versace didn't leave all of his houses to Antonio. He allowed him to live in them if he wanted to. The houses were still property of the Versace family. "

Well, that's a setup for neverending arguments! Really, if someone left me a "right to live in the mansion" in their will, I'd accept a cash settlement from the owners to move out and free up a valuable property - and I'd take enough to buy myself a reasonably nice place that I'd own outright. But then, I'm not someone who has any desire to live in a mansion.

New York Townhouse here:

Most of the others here:

just too busy for my taste but i love the milanese house!

I'm completely fascinated by mega-cunt Donatella

i've know a couple of guys who worked at Versace as designers. Obviously gay guys. They only had nice things to say about Donatella.

I can't figure out how this series is going to sustain any synthesis between the 2 stories. Versace and Cunanan had a very slight connection, and never proven. So we are going to work back in time with Cunanan through his murder spree to, presumably, his crack up into pathology in San Francisco but there will be no connection to Versace during the time. So I guess we will just get the Versace story of those years running simultaneously and separately?

It will have to be allegorical connection based on materialism, since luxury and wealth were Cunanan's DADA and madness.

Fortunately its not meant as a documentary. I liked how this was done in Feud -- but there was a lot more connection there between Bette and Joan, not much considering the length of years covered, but a lot more than in this Versace Cunanan.

Wait and see what they do here to pull it together. The 1st ep was better than the 2nd.

They try to draw parallels when they can, but some episodes have no Versace in it r202.

No. Wasn't Versace one of the earliest to take the stuffy old fashion shows and jazz them up with color and music and flair and make them more exciting? Gianni was an artist.

"Miss S&M" Fall Collection 1992 was a big production. (not couture)

It was at the Ritz in July and I dont remember if it was the first show in the Chambre Syndicale because I seem to remember it was the "off" show that forced the Syndicale to let him in subsequently. He wasn't following the techniques of the couture. It was like Mrs. Vanderbilt's ball - FU to Mrs. Astor - I will not be denied.

[quote]I think Gianni thought that in the even of his passing his siblings would have respected his wishes for Antonio.

Why would he think that? Donatella clearly hated Antonio.

Gianni did Antonio wrong by not leaving him a nice sum of money, or property, in his will. And Antonio was dumb for not making sure that he was included in the will. No way would I stay with someone for 12 years and not be in the will.

r142

that's all I could think of in that scene as well

I'm the poster who has seen most of the episodes (though no one believes me) . After he kills William Reese later in the show you see him his pickup truck and he sings along to the song "Gloria" and it's pretty fantastic how good/bad he is.

I read the comment on the hair before watching the ep. I then thought, maybe he took the shower to moisten the duck table and melt the glue? But when he takes off the tape, his hair is dry.

Moisten the duck table! That should be a phrase...

Does anyone have a gif of Darren Criss holding a hand over his mouth and grinning when he imitates some woman on episode 1??

It's very unsettling and creepy.

R209 Yeah, that already aired in episode 2.

R21 my fab spell check error

[quote]Donatella clearly hated Antonio.

But I don't think Gianni knew that. They seemed to pretend to get along while he was alive, hence Donatella telling him they could stop after the murder.

I also thought it was cunty that she didn't allow him to travel back to Italy with Gianni's cremains.

They are really nailing the late 90s gay club thing.

Since they go in for Limited Series at the Emmys, I'm betting Max Greenfield won't be eligible for a Guest Actor award, which is a damned shame.

Cunanan seems like such a quintessentially shallow, modern, American character. Obsessed with the trappings of success, but with no talent or a desire to work towards actually being successful. A vampire who wanted to leach wealth and fame from those who'd achieved something, who'd kill out of envy and self-hatred.

He was ahead of his time, he had the mindset of a wannabe Instagram whore who posts endless selfies and faked shopping sprees, he just didn't have the platform. Or the looks.

Easton Ellis's American Psycho was published in 91 and Patrick Bateman's materialistic psychopath is an 80s creation. Cunanan has some similarities to the Bateman character also Bateman was a success not a loser.

Apparently we have to wait many episodes until non-white ethnicity plays into the narrative.

I prefer my duck tables dry.

I've only seen the "American Psycho" movie, R217, but the movie made it quite clear that Bateman wasn't as much of a success as he seemed to be or wanted to be. His rich bastard preppie peers coolly referred to him as a "dork" and snobbishly indicated that Bateman didn't measure up, so yes, he was another classic American character motivated by envy and resentment.

Cunanan may have embodied the dark side of gay social ambition, but

Dammit!

Anyway, Cunanan may have been a sort of embodiment of the gay dark side, but his motives are sadly common across all sexes, orientations, and social classes. Every girl who fakes a glamorous life on social media or unemployed straight boy who spends his last dollar on expensive and supposedly impressive running shoes has the same hollow core as Cunanan.

I agree. I was merely pointing out that the 80s were chock full of pushy crazy poseurs who could be quite toxic, so Instagram isn't really anything new just a new ideation of the same.

Slate Culture gabfest discussed it with some guest gay and they discussed how in this narrative - Versace = saint and good gay but all of the Cunanan related characters are icky bad gays and in fact the 90s weren't as bleak or stark and I agree, nor were the 80s. The nihilistic South Beach gay disco zeitgeist was a very small part of everything possible as was closeted old rich johns.

The Donatella drag queen looked more like the real thing than Penelope does.

I think its interesting enough just to see how twisted Cunanan is. This portrayal is very creepy.

creepy and campy.

R223 That's cuz the real Donatella has slightly masculine features.

creepy,campy,girly

Just saw episode two tonight — Max Greenfield was outstanding! Wow, always thought he was cute and funny on the few episodes of “New Girl” I’ve seen, but never knew had could be this good!

Is there a clip to Darren dancing freakishly?

R229, Knock yourself out!!

But be warned: he's bottom heavy

Agreed, R215, Max Greenfield definitely deserves some award nomination recognition for his haunting work here.

Yes, Max Greenfield was terrific. I think this performance will lead to new and better things for him. He was fine on New Girl but this performance really showed his range.

R224 I knoww! I feel disturbed watching him. I almost want to quit the show because it gets too creepy. Good show though..

R230 Do you have that clip of him covering his mouth while freakishly smiling?

r50, Pacino as Paterno can reprise his "Godfather II" "abortion" scene with " I don't wanna hear about it!"

Name a major American crime where the authorities didn't screw up; ignore tips; conduct an incompetent prosecution; mess up or destroy evidence; etc.

The destroyed fingerprint and missing gun of Tate-LaBianca; the crowded Jon Benet house; the unnecessary deadly conflagrations of Waco and the Patty Hearst SLA; assassinations (JFK, RFK, MLK, even LHO); Ruby Ridge; and the Leader of the Pack,

OJ.

It's a bit of a cheat since Cunanan can't see can't see what the lady was doing, only that her arm is folded.

The effect comes mainly from direction and camera work, not so much acting.

Please forgive if this has already been posted.

I say props to Criss for making AC so damn creepy.

[241] I agree. Wonderfully creepy & menacing. I also think he danced awkwardly on purpose. For all AC’s alleged charisma & braggadocio he was most likely insecure and a shitty dancer. Or maybe he took a page out of Elaine Benes’ playbook.

I remember Marcus described Max Greenfield as someone that seemed like they would be happy to jump on the casting couch for Murphy if Ryan wanted. His interviews do give off that vibe, I see what Marcus meant.

[quote]I also think he danced awkwardly on purpose

Too exaggeratedly mincing to be convincing.

Anybody else think the Twist scenes played the wrong music. IIRC, cool nightclubs would have been playing techno. La Bouche would not have been played at a nightclub like that.

The Lisa Stansfield song was from 1990.

A Little Bit of Ecstasy might have been played.

R236, it's true, and IMHO it's one reason that prosecutors are so reluctant to prosecute high-profile cases, and that includes any case where the defendant is rich or famous or can afford a publicist. An unintended consequence of shoddy police work is that it's contributing to the US having one legal system for the rich and another for the poor, with the rich being just let off the hook if the prosecutors can't come up with an absolutely airtight idiot-proof case.

Good thing Cunanan offed himself, what are the odds he would have been sent to jail?

In our criminal justice system, you have what amounts to career civil servants working as prosecutors, and you have a huge bureaucracy backing them up, and the level of intelligence and competence is very uneven. Look at the stupid medical technician who was sent to Nicole Simpson's house to gather blood evidence. Basic shit. He fucked it up.

OTOH, the Defense is always going to find the best, most intelligent lawyers money can buy to get them off. The Defense is also going to find the best labs and best technicians to counter any science presented by the prosecutors. Yes, I agree we have a two tier justice system with the wealthiest having access to the best defense.

So I think the Prosecutors office and the career civil servants need to be paid more and the tests for competency and eligibility standards ought to be tougher. When you know the Defense is going to throw the best and the brightest against you you have to respond in kind. A lot of Prosecutors love it when they get a high profile case. It can be career making. MArcia Clark is still riding the OJ bus. And a lot of local prosecutors become political stars and run for office. In general it's rare to find a good prosecutor who wants to stay in one place and keep being a good prosecutor. So what you're left with are people who aren't real bright...like Chris Darden who gave OJ the glove to try on.

It wasn't his dancing that was creepy, it was Criss's untoned body that made it creepy.

I haven’t been able to bring myself to watch this yet. I was looking forward to it for awhile, but it’s just too sad.

The dancing was creepy because we were looking at someone's private moment. Dancing in that hotel room while his john was taped up and we didn't know whether he would torture him or kill him or WTF. But I thought it was a great scene and Darren did a great job. Andrew wasn't all toned. He wasn't a proficient dancer. He was a serial killer who lived in another universe. His dance showed that. A real Danse Macabre.

As others have said. Darren's body is actually too toned, Cunanan had gained weight and was less attractive than he used to be when he started his killing spree. Many people who knew him remarked that all of a sudden he looked like shit.

In his end days, Cunanan was ugly blob. Darren was too fit, untoned as some of you find him. But it was probably a short shoot and they aren't going for documentary realism.

sorry I was typing while you were posting.

Yes, the situation made the dancing super creepy. But by itself the dancing was your stereotype TV Gay, especially the "holding in his pee" steps.

Did anyone else get a bit of a Little Edie vibe from Greenfield's (great) performance?

The next episode is about the Lee Miglin murder. My wife was already traumatized by the scene with the duct tape around the head of the old guy. I guess this will really put her over the edge.

Did Marilyn Miglin know about Lee’s gay assignations ? before the murder that is.

How would anyone know r257?

Publicly she still denies Lee Miglin being gay and having any connection to Andrew.

R258 maybe she was his beard. I know very little about them

Well Lee definitely looked like he smelled freshly baked cookies!

I think Max Greenfield would have a lock on Best Guest Actor on a Drama Series Emmy but would he qualify?

This show is a limited series.

There is only best actor/supporting actor for limited series. No category for guest actor in a limited series.

Max Greenfield did well, but he isn't going to get any awards season love for his episode.

I think Max is in 1 episode only. It was good but hardly super sustained.

He looked sort of like someone but I couldn't put my finger on it? Freddie Mercury?. Too bad he didn't get that role.

R256 I'm already traumatized researching about Andrew's murders. And I'm not even from US, though I am from Philippines. So it is kinda weird watching Andrew here 😫😫

Antonio D'Amico is back to bitch about some things.

1)The opera date with Cunanan never happened (though we all said that)

2) All the bullshit about Antonio telling Gianni he wanted to get married and change they way they handled their relationship never happened. (which was also obvious)

Honestly his complaints are fairly minor, but I get this is his real life so he wants to bitch.

If I were in his place, I too would like to be on the record as what is real and what is not, R265.

And the fact is, the show made the Opera date extremely ambiguous, no wonder some people thought it may have been real. If they wanted to frame it as imaginary, there are simple and effective ways to do that on screen.

I agree the opera scene was vague and not obvious enough to be a dream sequence. This show can do creepy well but they can’t do fantasy. I was a little lost, especially since it’s over 20 years ago.

Hard to blame him. I wouldn't want to see my life onscreen played for dramatic effect. Unfortunately that's a downside of being in the public eye.

I don't begrudge Antonio anything.

I will say I thought the whole fantasy part started when Cunanan ran into Gianni in a club and ended up sitting with him and having a conversation...isn't that how the opera fantasy started? because maybe he did run into him in a club and maybe he stood there and stared and finally said a weak hello, so stunned was he to see a celebrity or WTF ever. But I'd bet Gianni was dismissive of him, and that might have even been one of the triggers for Andrew to stalk him. Whatever.

Of all the 80's and 90's monsters one might have a grudge with, one doesn't think of Gianna Versace.

Gianni

Can't wait for this tonight. You know Judith Light is going to bring it.

[quote]Hard to blame him. I wouldn't want to see my life onscreen played for dramatic effect. Unfortunately that's a downside of being in the public eye.

True, but there is nothing controversial they are doing with Versace and Antonio though.

Marilyn Miglin and Duke Miglin have always been adamant that Lee was straight and it was a random killing, and of course the show is going to portray the opposite of that. I expect them to yell at the press "it is all bullshit" at every opportunity they are given lol.

[quote]As others have said. Darren's body is actually too toned, Cunanan had gained weight and was less attractive than he used to be when he started his killing spree.

I remember when it happened. Reports were that they found Cunanan's jeans. The report said they were "size 36." I remember friends saying at dinner: "Size 36? No wonder he killed himself!"

Donatella looking good! (relatively)

R275 Her elocution is [unintelligible].

That video proves Penelope nailed her.

Yeah I think a lot of people aren't familiar with how Donatella speaks, which is why Penelop's voice caught them so off guard.

Donatella and Antonio should really be flattered they are being portrayed by individuals more attractive than them.

Er, the real Antonio was a very good-looking guy

Poor Marilyn.

She knew it

Did Marilyn shake her head involuntarily or is that a Judith Light thing? It looks subtle but clear.

Poor Lee. Mike Farrell plays a decent kind guy so well.

What an interesting house

[r282] she knew what?

That her husband was a bottom Rose.

This is gonna be one rough episode to watch.

That’s Meryl’s voice for the commercial for Angels in America on Broadway, right?

Cripes, Judith Light looks like Bette Davis post stroke...and when did Mike Farrell turn into Oat Robertson?

PAT Robertson dammit

lol that kiss scene

I met Mike Farrell briefly 20 years ago. He hasn’t aged.

He was speaking at a Human Rights rally. He’s a big time activist. I thought he had quit acting.

Nice, smart guy.

I just loved watching same sex couples kiss especially one of them is so much older.

“Harold, are all homerseckshuls kinky??”

This one's hard to watch.

Mike Farrell was outstanding. His reaction to the kiss was really heartbreaking. Sad because you could tell he loved his wife but also sad because of the impending doom.

I thought that kill scene would be more graphic.

At least it was quick. I didn't want to see him tortured.

He seemed to really enjoy stabbing people in the mouth.

Oh I love Judith Light

Duke was a failed actor.

Orth implied Duke knew Andrew too.

Well? Was Duke any good in Air Force One?

His murder was very graphic....his throat was cut with a saw, he was stabbed repeatedly with a screwdriver, He was wrapped in tape like a mummy and he was tied up under the tape.

What's ole Duke up to these days? Doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed...

Is that family friend being played by Jack Armstrong who used to be on the daytime soaps?

I’m sorry but I love this Taco Bell commercial

Those nacho fries look disgusting.

Can’t wait to try out the new Zesty Cherry Diet Coke!

I was so afraid he was gonna kill the old lady.

TV cliche I hate: car wheels ALWAYS screech and squeal.

How many times in your entire life have you ever heard car wheels squeal? Once? On Tv, it’s every tine the car turns and accelerates.

And the Emmy goes to!

I need to watch some Family Feud as a palate cleanser before I go to sleep. Murder gives me bad dreams.

I want to see some Edgar ass next week.

Ooh, I think I saw Finn Witrock in the preview. I forgot about that guy!

Oh, poor Mike Farrell didn't get a special guest star credit like Judith Light did.

The family friend was played by Jack Armstrong. imdb says he’s 59. He still looks good. He was Greg #2 on All My Children.

Mike and Judith were outstanding.

Judy steals the show

It seems like they got a lot of the details right - corroborated with the Orth book with relied on police sources and others.

Cunanan seems obsessed with tape. That all happened. It was a little worse in reality than the show.

This is going to be less of a recap and more of a For Your Consideration” ad for Judith Light. Give her all the Emmys. Give her every last one: Supporting Actress in What Used to Be Called a Mini-series, Guest Actress in Anything More Than 30 Minutes and Less Than Two Hours, Best Reality Television Show Host Who Is Not RuPaul. She has earned every single one of them in her turn as Home Shopping Network perfume maven Marilyn Miglin. (Here is the real-life Marilyn, for those of you who have never ordered anything through a television screen.)

If that stupid news radio channel didn't run the story that Miglin's car phone was being tracked, they probably wouldn't caught Cunanan. Versace would've never been killed. What were they thinking??

would'VE* caught Cunanan

Thats the way the media works.....its like with the Nunes memo....everyone knows its bullshit, but it will be all anyone talks about after its released tomorrow.

Did someone in law enforcement leak the details about the car phone being tracked to the media?

They were thinking they had exclusive info and they wanted to be the ones to break it.

Assholes. I hope they were excoriated for that, but probably not.

Judith Light... amazing. Wow.

Emmy. Golden Globe. Everything.

Weakest episode so far. Sorry guys. Judith does a little too much these days. Still love her though.

Ricky Martin still angry cops couldn’t stop Versace killer

It seems a lot of mistakes were made, based on the series just 3 episodes in. The flyers, not following up on the pawn shop coin (I believe she said she called it in but they did nothing), and now that idiot radio station broadcasting the fact his stolen cell from Miglin was being traced....which got that random guy in the red truck killed too. It seems like the series is going further back so we'll probably see even more fuckups.

Versace’s Killer Targeted Tom! Inside Creep’s Twisted Obsession With Cruise Uncovered

Gacey and Dahmer went on WAY too long too...but they were still hiding more or less. Cunanan was already a known suspect very early on & still they couldn't get him.

I want to get to the bottom of the flyer thing cuz I am still annoyed about that. I didn't read the book - does anyone know more about this?

hiding in plain sight* is basically what I meant with those two... especially Gacey being friends with everyone, etc.

give judith the emmy goddammit

R280 They kind of look a like, no?

While I enjoyed Judith Light's showier performance, Mike Farrell's subtle work was heart-breaking. He made you feel for the guy so much. I know the real Marilyn will be pissed at the show no matter what, but I thought they handled it with care.

And poor William Reese, the one who really did die for no reason.

That episode flew by, couldn't believe it was already over. Personally I didn't miss the Versace family.

I'm hoping they do a bit more about Reese as his family and friends said he was a decent guy. I know it was a murder of convenience for Cunanan but at least give the guy's family a bit more.

I'm pretty sure that is all you are going to get on Reese r336. They did have him give a little shout-out to his family because he died.

And for people saying "Judith Light for the emmy!". As was already mentioned, there is no guest actor emmy for a limited series.

The only category is supporting actor, and supporting actor for a one-episode appearance...?

before he died*

The preview for episode 4.

I am utterly flabbergasted that they are portraying Jeff Trail and David Madson as being in a relationship together. There is nothing to say that in Maureen's book. I wonder if there is any basis for that idea or did they just create it themselves as a reason for Cunanan to get jealous and murder them.

I get it is a drama and a not a documentary, but that seems a big plot point to invent.

“And poor William Reese, the one who really did die for no reason”

Why distinguish this one murder from the others? What is the “reason” for the other murders?

The motive for Trail/Madson was that Cunanan THOUGHT they were having an affair....not necessarily that they were.

The other men Andrew had some reason to want them dead in his warped mind r340, Reese had zero connection to Cunanan. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I don't recall Andrew thinking they were together r341, though I would need to go back and check the book to be sure.

R330 - RADAR has the shittiest most stupid "writers" ever.

"Gianni Versace’s murderer — AIDS-infected serial killer Andrew Cunanan"

[quote]Did someone in law enforcement leak the details about the car phone being tracked to the media?

Yes, it first leaked to the media out of the Chicago PD. And then the Philadelphia police department stupidly confirmed the story.

[quote]Thursday night a Chicago network affiliate had also carried the information that there was an all-points bulletin out for Andrew in Philadelphia. Other media soon asked the Philadelphia police for confirmation of the APB and the cell phone monitoring story. A Philadelphia police spokesperson confirmed that Miglin’s cell phone had been activated on Thursday.

After that it got blasted on on the radio/news everywhere.

And yes Andrew obviously heard it, like they showed in the episode, he actually did rip off the cell antenna from the top of the car.

[quote]Clearly Andrew was also listening. This unfortunate leak out of Chicago, followed by the police confirmation of it, was probably the most serious blunder of the entire manhunt. The consequences of the widespread media coverage, swift and direct, were later revealed in the inspection of the Lexus. “The phone antenna was completely torn out, so he obviously heard it right away and tried to dismantle the cell phone,” says Rivard. The antenna was later found broken in two on the floor of the backseat. The actual power box for the phone, which allowed the signals to continue to be emitted, was in the Lexus trunk; Andrew never found it. The FBI later found holes in the lining of the Lexus roof, indicating that Andrew had frantically searched for a way to disconnect the phone. “Apparently he couldn’t,” says former FBI Deputy Director William Esposito. “That’s when he decided to ditch the car.”

AC was not a serial killer. He was a textbook "spree killer."

When and where did Andrew first meet Miglin? How many times had they met? I didn’t read the book and I’m curious.

[quote]I want to get to the bottom of the flyer thing cuz I am still annoyed about that. I didn't read the book - does anyone know more about this?

Since I am going book digging, this is what Maureen says about it.

[quote]In May, Keith Evans made an obligatory visit to the Miami Beach police about Andrew. He had one flier with a photo of Andrew on it withhim, and spoke to Sergeant Lori Wieder, an openly gay police officer, one of two on the Miami Beach force then. He asked her help in contacting local gay groups for an undercover operation to infiltrate gay clubs in the area. “He was very unfamiliar with the gay community in general,” says Wieder. “I supplied him with information—gay newspapers and lists of clubs. He had one flier. I made a copy.” Wieder’s instinct was to get the fliers out to gay media and clubs so that they could see what Andrew looked like. But Evans said no. “He didn’t want me to distribute fliers,” Wieder says.

[quote]Getting the word out immediately was also the first idea that came to homicide detective Paul Scrimshaw when he was introduced to Evans. Ironically, two months later, Scrimshaw, a thoughtful ex-schoolteacher on his way to retirement, was put in charge of the Versace case. But Evans also made it clear to Scrimshaw that he didn’t want publicity about Andrew, that he preferred to keep the investigation low key. Scrimshaw, both sardonic and laconic, is given to wearing leather vests and brushing his longish hair straight back. He projects the classic cop attitude of having seen it all and thinks much of it is foolish. “The FBI came here, and talked to us, and we said, ‘Let’s get this out.’ But the FBI said, ‘No, no, we want to soft-pedal this,’ ” Scrimshaw says. “If you come to the police station and say, “We want this guy,’ and we say, ‘OK, let’s put the fliers out,’ and he says, ‘No, no, no, we got leads,’ I take it he’s saying that because he wants the glory of it—he’s thinking, I want to do the grab.”

[quote]He was a textbook "spree killer."

The little flip killed TEXTBOOKS?

[quote]When and where did Andrew first meet Miglin? How many times had they met? I didn’t read the book and I’m curious.

No one knows the true story of Lee Miglin and Andrew Cunanan. And they are both dead, so we will never know.

[quote]I take it he’s saying that because he wants the glory of it—he’s thinking, I want to do the grab.”

What a piece of shit... god forbid someone called in a tip to the police department and he didn't get the "credit" - unreal.

Thanks r348.

I kind of get the "softpedal" thing only in the sense that you don't want him to know what you know... but still, to do nothing was so inappropriate.

R330's link was bizarre. "AIDS-infected serial killer Andrew Cunanan"?? He was HIV negative.

R319's link makes it clear they added details to the Miglin murder. He was in CK bikini briefs, not panties. I don't remember any gay porn in the book either.

R339 I agree it is a silly thing to invent. There's not even any reason to believe that Andrew believed they were involved. I guess Ryan thinks the public couldn't understand how two gay guys, who both knew Cunanan, ended up living in the same city.

It's fun stuff, but even more fictionalized than Feud.

There were gay porn magazines found in the garage near Lee Miglin's body r352.

But yes, he was not wearing women's panties, though the underwear could be seen as "gay".

What are gay porn magazines?

OK. hate me. I wasn't that impressed with Judith Light's performance as Marilyn Miglin. And her wig was really annoying. eyelashes and all that makeup. I 've seen a lot of pictures of Marilyn Miglin and Judith was the wrong person for that role. I mean, Judith's performance as fine, but she wasn't a very good Marilyn Miglin. She was just some wealthy prominent woman whose husband got murdered and she clearly was obsessed with ignoring anything that might lead her to believe he had a secret Gay life.

Judith Light was just doing a version of her TRANSPARENT character. Still, in her narrow groove, she's damn good.

[quote]. And her wig was really annoying. eyelashes and all that makeup.

Marilyn does love her blonde wigs, eyelashes and makeup though!

Judith Light is an award-winning actor with a big fanbase. If she wants to play a chair, they’re going to let her play a chair.

I laugh at the idea that a casting director or producer might respond to a Star like Judith Light with, “Sorry, you’re 2 inches taller than the real Mrs. Miglin. So we’re going to cast a nobody instead since the nobody is the same height as Mrs. Miglin.”

327 i actually agree. i think the directing wasn't great this episode. it started off great and judith started off great, but the rest was just... weaker than the first two episodes, including her performance.

i do appreciate them not making it as graphic. and they did manage to make me feel so bad for lee, with cunanan being a real asshole even before the actual murder

I thought the acting carried (and has continued to carry this show).

My main problem through the episodes is the script is sometimes too heavy handed (though that is common in a Murphy production I suppose)

Even last night lines like "so powerful out there, so submissive in here" are just too pat. Honestly everything they wrote for Andrew as he was killing Lee I thought was weak.

True but giving boiler plate lines to a spree killer with folie de grandeur, is perhaps an artistic choice. I haven't felt a teaspoon of empathy for the Cunanan character.

[quote]I haven't felt a teaspoon of empathy for the Cunanan character.

Yeah, that is part of the problem with going backwards. We are only seeing Andrew be a monster, he isn't a three-dimensional character yet.

We haven't see the charming life of the party that was an anchor of the San Diego gay scene.

we'll see that in future episodes, i'm sure

Anyone else think the Miglin townhouse looked appallingly tacky inside? Was that accurate set design? Everything white and brass -- with very cheesy furniture. It would have looked dated even in the 90s.

Also, the neighbor said, "Their Lexus is missing!" when she and the police officer first go in the garage.

But it was missing when Andrew and Lee went into the garage. That seems like an oversight.

The townhouse was appalling. It seems almost like something they found and rented, intact. I didn't understand the slatted stair "spindle" treatment.

They also had a small bed. Looked like it wasn’t even a queen size.

And in the downstairs hallway, by the staircase, not one single thing on the walls. No art. No photos.

It didn't look as if they lived there.

Maybe they were portraying as they are so busy with their careers that they are hardly there and don't care about that stuff?

Some people arent into all the material window dressing.

The starkness was supposed to represent the barrenness of their marriage as well as their superficiality. And the wife's controlling hysteria. It was all overkill thought amusing to watch.

[quote]The starkness was supposed to represent the barrenness of their marriage

I don't think we were to get the impression that they had a "barren" marriage. It seemed like a very loving one, albeit with a fatal flaw.

You don't know much about closet case marriages. Sure they loved each other but there were many tells that she had gone unfucked too too too long.

Miss Judith Light does NOT do subtle.

Why were they so circumspect about Duke Miglin's and Andrew Cunanan's connection? Andrew, per the NY Times, told friends he and "Duke Miglin" were opening a scenery construction business togther. If you carefully watch the scene, "Duke" says nothing when asked if he knows Andrew Cunanan. Duke, now married with a family, currently runs the family's real estate empire.

The show has no choice but to tread carefully with all these unknowns.

Showing that Andrew and Lee knew each other is safe ground, most sane people who look at the evidence would conclude that.

Everything else they don't try to answer. How did Andrew and Lee meet? Was Duke involved in that? They aren't going to try to answer those questions, it is walking into the landmine and they don't know for sure. So just leave it open-ended. Let the audience come up with their own theories.

Analyzing Judith Light's Amazing Performance in 'The Assassination of Gianni Versace'

R375 Plus, Duke is still alive. He could sue.

But he can't be pleased with the show -- the stuff about Dad aside -- because they make him out to be a real idiot.

r376...according to that article, the Miglins knew Cunanan....and he even went on to Hawaii with them for xmas.....as a guest of Duke.

darren criss' acting is so shitty

waiting for an episode where he shows dimension....

b o r i n b

GIVE JUDITH MANY AWARDS

BEST ACTING SO FAR !!!!!

Judith is a wonderful actress and I'm a fan, but honestly she didn't work as MArilyn Miglin for me. They needed someone more feminine with sharper features. Someone petite. Judith worked as the widow of a dead man but not Marilyn Miglin. And her hair and make up for the character was terrible. The wig was bad and the rest of the make up had her looking like a tranny. Sorry. Go ahead and hate me. It's a free country...for a little longer anyway.

Yes Maureen recounts that interview in the book r376

[quote]In New York, Jack Shaffer, a Park Avenue real-estate financier who had worked with Miglin-Beitler on previous deals, and his partner, John Bralower, were also stunned to hear that Lee Miglin had been murdered and that Andrew Cunanan was the prime suspect. A few years back, they had run into the Miglins in the Los Angeles airport. Their flight to New York had been delayed for a couple of hours, and they were in United Airlines’ Red Carpet Lounge. The Miglins were on their way to Hawaii for a family Christmas, and were waiting for Duke to join them. He finally arrived with afriend, who made a great impression. “If you saw him, you were meeting a very unusual individual,” says Shaffer. He didn’t remember the friend’s name, but as soon as he and Bralower saw Andrew Cunanan’s picture, they concurred immediately: That was the friend of Duke’s whom they had met at the L.A. airport. “I know that that’s the guy whose picture’s been all over.” But memories can be hazy and Duke, of course, has always maintained he never met Andrew and it has never been proven he has. “I just know that’s what I know,” says Jack Shaffer. Still, he admits that he and his partner could not swear to it in court.

[quote].according to that article, the Miglins knew Cunanan....and he even went on to Hawaii with them for xmas.....as a guest of Duke.

Jesus Christ, that is NOT what the article says.

It says the Mglins were going to Hawaii and Duke met his parents at the airport. He brought a friend, Cunanan. It never says Cunanan went to Hawaii with the family.

I feel very sad for Lee, I think what happened to him is awful. Cunanan was a lowlife scum.

THAT SAID, did anyone else begin to get a sneak boner during the first part of the "encounter"? Once it got too violent, it went away, but earlier?

Goddamn Criss is really wonderful. And Judy Light was really fantastic.

Versace Killer Unmasked: Untold Stories Of Andrew Cunanan’s Sick & Twisted Life

Gianni Versace’s murderer — crazed serial killer Andrew Cunanan — managed to fool everyone about his sordid secret life, which included: a string of rich, older lovers who kept him in luxury, a secret wife and child in San Fransisco, and at least one lover who escaped his psychopathic frenzy. Click through gallery to get a glimpse inside the crazed murderer’s twisted past.

Is it one poster who keeps spamming links to radar's terrible "articles"?

Radar is a shit shit for the #MAGA crowd.

Did Andrew also kill his friends from episode 1? That couple he was presumably living with?

no r388

What a rootless existence. He stole cars and money and lived and ate in the cars or trucks, or rented shithole hotel rooms and was always broke. What kind of home did he come from. Too many of these accounts start when he's grown and getting ready to start his career as a killer. But how did he grow up?

R390 He grew up fairly poor and as a young adult worked his way into wealthy society. He then got dumped by a sugar daddy and his life fell apart. Future episodes will cover this.

And my worked I mean was fake and lied to closeted old men till they took care of him.

Judith Light is amazing, Emmys, Tonys, why hasn't anyone given her a great movie role like Tonya's Mother.

Regarding the Miglin's decor: Upper class homes in that era were frequently very beige or cream. I knew a lady who bought a house from a fancy couple and the entire interior was light beige. Even the trim.

[quote]What kind of home did he come from. Too many of these accounts start when he's grown and getting ready to start his career as a killer. But how did he grow up?

The show will get there I assume, his life growing up was very weird.

His mom was mentally unstable, his Dad was a thieving asshole who got arrested for fraud. They spoiled him rotten. He was Prince Andrew, valued more than his siblings and was even given the master bedroom of their home. It was pretty crazy.

Episode 8 will show his childhood

I get why they chose to basically tell the story backwards but it was such a poor choice. It's really annoying sometimes.

FBI files discuss Miglin as someone seen at gay bars. Interesting. They also thought it was revenge for giving Cunanan AIDS.

Page 60, a Chicago hooker talk about being hired by Miglin. It's getting juicy.

[quote]Did Andrew also kill his friends from episode 1? That couple he was presumably living with?

Andrew only kills two more people we haven't seen. Jeff Trail and David Madson. I assume/hope both of them will be in multiple episodes. David was a boyfriend, and Jeff was arguably his best friend. He met them both in San Diego, they ended up both (seperately) moving to Minneapolis which is where they ended up getting murdered.

R396 I'm so excited!!!

I wish we can also see his life as a fetus!!

But, no.. seriously I am excited.

Also thanks, r400!

I kinda like the backward story telling. I see a lot of people confused about and I just feel so sorry for those morons!

I'm not confused, but I don't necessarily like the backwards storytelling because I don't think it adds anything to the show.

I've said this before, but they only did it so they can start off with the flashy Versace murder.

It might not add anything but I believe it's a nice way to tell the story. The most known part of this is that Versace was murdered so why not get that out of the way(no rudeness intended) and show what led up to it.

I thought episode 3 was the best episode yet. Judy Light was utterly fantastic.

Darren Criss is astounding me. It's like Norman Bates meets Patrick Bateman meets Tom Ripley meets every garden-variety sociopath I've never met in bars in West Hollywood and on 967 numbers.

And, I think Criss is hot as fuckin' shit dude. Dayum.

I'm a meautiful moron and I definitely liked the backward storytelling as well. Stop generalizing us morons, we have been through a lot with the genius-washed society already!

I didn't enjoy the third episode. Too slow and too dramatic for me.

Watching the latest episode with Lee Miglin, this one is really interesting

They made it look like Lee was into being the submissive for Andrew, it made me feel sorry for him.

On page 112 of r398's files, the psychic knew he'd be in the boat on the day he shot himself. Weird.

I can't believe this whore generated 324 pages of paperwork and couldn't be caught after the Miglin murder - or even sooner.

quick question: the scene at the vanity mirror after the murder in which Marilyn asks the family friend "am i a good wife now?" after crying... for some reason i got the idea that the man was her lover, not just a friend. Did Marilyn have her side pieces too? Anyone know?

wow, i didn't know that Marilyn remarried and that her second husband died soon after, while getting a facelift! Jesus, this woman has had a tough love life!!

R359, Put a capital "R" directly preceding your recipient's post number.

^^^ it doesn’t need to be a capital.

shhh dont tell them

[quote]Did Andrew also kill his friends from episode 1? That couple he was presumably living with?

The couple in episode 1 will probably show up again. The woman Elizabeth Cote was the one who made the video taped plea to Andrew to stop the killing spree.

R398 Cunanan didn't have HIV.

I liked the 3rd episode the best, I don't care for Penelope and the Versace stuff doesn't interest me that much

[quote]Cunanan didn't have HIV.

They found out he didn't once he was dead, but a popular working theory at the time of the murders was he was HIV positive and hunting down the guys who might have given him HIV. That is why you will see a lot of references to that.

R420, but why in the first episode AC exposed a seeping "aids" sore on his thigh. ?

I just noticed the slight resemblance between David Madson and Versace. Ugh, as if this case weren't creepy enough.

I really don't get people saying episode three was somehow weak. It was the best of them. Maybe part 1 was more cinematic, but that's it. Judith Light puts on a master class in how the create a full and rich character with only around 23 minutes of screen time. Criss was absolutely chilling. Mike Farrell was heartbreaking, in his way.

A really fine hour of television.

All of Darren's jackets are huge.

Am I missing this great performance from Judith Light? I don’t get it. Her smearing the makeup “is that bet-turrr” scene was hysterical.

I noticed that too, R424, and it made his character all the more pathetic. For all his pretensions, Cunanan didn't even own a jacket that fit properly.

I thought loose clothes are a thing back then. Is it not?

I hadn't thought of that, r427. I just googled "men's suits 90s" and images like this popped up...

Baggy clothes were definitely in style in the 90s.

His suit jackets were big probably because they were stolen.

R425, welcome to DL, where Judith Light can do no wrong. Evah!

The FBI report says that Cunanan confided in someone at a bar that he had just gotten his test back and he was HIV+.

That may not be true, but it was info given to the FBI.

The FBI report says that Cunanan and Miglin rented the same male prostitute twice. Both times, it appears that the only sex was the prostitute either fucking or sucking the two customers.

Cunanan could have been lying about his status to attain sympathy and maybe $$$.

R414 i know! i typed too fast and didn't realize till i posted :P but thanks!

R421 I remember reading an interview with the writer Tom Rob Smith, and he said the sore was a result of drug use (I can't remember if he said from meth use?). In the book, the autopsy report said he had a huge abscess at his death. Anyways, I'm also loving the show. Criss is phenomenal and I'm really enjoying Cruz as well.

Meth explains the brutality of the deaths.

It’s hard to gain weight on meth. He was a prescription drug user.according to G. Indiana in Three Month Fever, a more vivid account of Cunanan ‘s life than the Orth book.

[quote]Ooh, I think I saw Finn Witrock in the preview. I forgot about that guy!

I'm excited for Finn. I swear Wittrock plays gay on screen better than he does straight, his chemistry with men has always been impeccable.

[341] i have seen this episode and it IS implied that they something was going on. When the two of them walk from the elevator into the apartment he asked the other guy "you think he knows?" But in the episode David Madsen was seeing someone else.

Is it possible that Marilyn knew about her husband's activities?

Has anyone ever seen crime scene photos of the Miglin residence? I don't want to leer at them, so I'm not going to dig through the internet, but it doesn't seem like Marilyn would have such a dated-looking home.

The wig and her costumes were both triumphs.

I'm have to to point out that pretty much everything you've tried to "spoil" for us has been wrong r439, and what you just said in that post was in the preview.

PINK. WE PAINTED IT PINK! wasn't the purpose of that line calling her beloved husband a fag, with a bit of tenderness. She seems like a complex woman but might have been interesting to know her. (I know she's not dead.)

[quote] PINK. WE PAINTED IT PINK!

Yes, that did appear to be her saying, "Lee, why didn't you just come out an TELL me you liked cock?"

Lee did come off as very sympathetic but he loses big points from me for having anybody in his and Marilyn’s house. He could certainly afford a good hotel room. Why was he so stupid? And disrespectful of his marriage to even think of banging someone other than his wife at their house?

{362) you feel more of that in the upcoming episodes. His older bF who he is living with in SD throws him a party which is pretty pathetic. Leg MIglin follows him around the pool and the old fart he is living with starts to figure him out. There is a scene where he takes a picture with "all the people he loves" and it's so PATHETIC. NONE of them love him.

The house was dated, but it's what a lot of homes looked like inside in the 90s. It's like the huge oversized suits that people were calling "poorly fitted" above. Wasn't anyone around in the 90s? Everyone was putting in kitchens exactly like that - but not with granite yet like this house had (not ubiquitous yet). All white formica was the rage. Houses were done in all white - carpet, walls, etc.. to replace the 70-80s style of crazy colors from avocado green to pastel teal.

It looks like they renovated in the late 80s or early 90s and then he was shot in 97. I'm just guessing the set designer based the interiors off some kind of crime scene photos or talking to people - rather than making it up.

Can someone please stop posting spoilers please for fucks sake!

The poster who posts their "spoilers" about upcoming episodes is always wrong r447. I'm pretty sure they are just doing this on purpose at this point.

Unless you are talking about real life details about the case, in which case I would say you can't spoil a true crime story.

I think Cunanan's fag hag might have actually loved him as a friend. But, I think everyone else hated him.

The person spoiling stuff is just taking it from the preview clips of upcoming episodes they've shown.

[quote]Next episode skips to San Diego and shows the killing of the 2 guys and then goes backwards the next episode to tell there story. I told you I've seen a bunch of episodes. I think Lee Miglin is in 6 and 7

Everything about this is laughably wrong.

Hey gays - live in Hollywood here. Saw all the screenings - work in hollywood - live in the Hills - 25 mil home here - yep so what else can I tell you? Well, Donatella's doctor is in the middle of giving her lip injections in episode 2 and she hears of Gianni's death while she's literally being injected with collagen (restylane isn't yet invented). So, she runs out with only half a lip done and then they take the doctor with on the plane to finish the rest of the lips so she doesn't look bad for all the paparazzi shots of her. You know Donatella always wants to look perfect - like an angel, that face.

Penelope really looks just like her - omg - it's amazing right?? Totally had drinks with Penelope last weekend, and she was in character the whole time, telling me to "GET OUT!!" haha - and I told her no girl only Maya Rudolph does that silly. I coach the actors and the actresses for the show sometimes just on the side. I also stitched Marilyn Miglin's wig for Ryan - just as a favor. I am one of the few Hollywood wig seamstresses who still does everything by hand. We got about 4 in from India which were dyed okay, but none really fit her head (did you know she's a man? she has a man's skull!) Anyway, we had to sew two of them together to get that look. Anyway, Judith was fabulous - we all had drinks with Penelope too. It's too bad they cut the scene where Marilyn and Donatella were eating each other out on top of the mosaic Versace floor because that was really a very beautiful scene.

Why do people think the Miglin apartment is dated? I was in there back in the 90s and it looked just like it. I remember it really well because I gave Lee the idea for the Sky Needle in there. I drew out the whole thing too - in the office - looked just like the one in the show. That's how it looked. Lee never hit on me, so he's probably str8 because most gay men hit on me wherever I go. I'm very good looking and well-built, but maybe they think I'm straight?

Anyway, stay tuned - Ian Ziering is going to make a guest appearance when the sharknado hits in episode 6. He's still SO hot. Hotter in person - we totally had drinks together. I was like - Ian how are you still so hot - you look just like 90210 and he's pretending to be modest... then we totally fucked.

Christ, in the Feud threads, we had the Lange loon.

Now in ACS Versace threads, we have the Spoiler Psycho.

[quote]Can someone please stop posting spoilers please for fucks sake!

This really happened. There were books about it. You have to be really ignorant not to know what comes next.

It turns out that spoiler psycho was right at r209 and this was not in the previews or any historical fact... but the reason for satirical post of him at r452 is that he just seems strangely self-congratulatory for having seen the episodes... and it's like he wants some kind of "thanks" even though nobody asked him for spoilers. Set gossip? Sure. Episode spoilers - not really.

They weren't exactly spoilers, though... just the fact Miglin would be in the show (albeit the wrong episode) isn't a shock to anyone. Maybe someone had an issue with the discussion of Judith light from the previews? Well, she's been in interviews and was extensively featured in the preview - before her episode. Do people seriously shut their TV off the second the show ends?

I'm too lazy to check but I bet Darren Criss singing Gloria was in some preview.

I mean thinking the Jeff Trail and David Madson murders happen before the Lee Miglin one is not something that anyone who watched the series could get wrong.

R455 there's a post that I don't care to fine where the spoiler psycho said Darren shows his ass again for a long time in episode 3. Didn't happen so he's full of shit.

We knew going in that the story was going to be told backward, right? That wasn't a surprise.

One is not nearly as bad as the other r453. So far these threads have remained reasonably sane. I unfortunately had to stop going to the "Feud" threads because they were such an embarrassing mess.

He's not telling us how he saw the episodes, so if he's some kind of editor or audio person, he might not have gotten everything in order. R457, that's his post r114 and he's talking about the episode with the military guy that didn't happen yet.

Why am I defending him? My whole point at r452 was to make fun of the weird way he writes.

I think doing it backwards was a mistake. The highlight has already happened.

The feud threads became insufferable with people screeching EMMY every other post. It happened again here with Judith Light's 28 minute appearance.

I agree r461. Apparently, we've been called "simple minded" above - but this makes it confusing and doesn't show how it culminated in that event, which is supposedly the focus of the show. It's basically "the history of Andrew Cunanan's murders - told in reverse"

Can’t wait to see David and Jeff in the next episode. I think they were just friends who knew each other because of Andrew. They were both Andrew’s lovers.

R463 And they were both, quite rightly, not looking forward to Andrew's visit.

R463 I thought Jeff was just a friend of Andrews

I’m sort of amazed by everything people on this thread know about Cunanan. All I knew was that he killed Gianni Versace. (And I was even living in Ft. Lauderdale when he was killed.)

I assumed Cunanan was an ex-boyfriend or something and it was a crime of passion. The real story is genuinely surprising to me, though I’m not sure how they’re going to get a whole season out of it.

It's sort of an odd crime to make a miniseries out of, since they had no relationship. It was sort of random.

So calling the show "Versace" is a bit of a fraud.

I assume people who know the details read that book by Orth. That seemed to be the one and only take on it. It was not well covered at all. It received 1% of the coverage OJ did, if that. I wonder how it's doing in the ratings, given the disparity in real life.

In gay circles, it got a lot of attention.

I remember around the time of the murders, dinner table conversations about Andrew Cunanan. "His jeans were SIZE 36! That's the motive for suicide right there!"

r486....that because OJ didnt off himself and the public was subjected to the spectacle of the trial.

^^^^sorry, r468 ^^^^^

You can't compare OJ and Andrew Cunanan. OJ was HUGE celebrity. Cunanan was a relative nobody.

It’s like comparing Squeaky Fromme to Imelda Marcos.

One news outlet called him "The homicidal homosexual."

R474 I remember that too. There was a lot of homophobia thrown towards Trail, Madson, Versace, and Cunanan by the media

r475 that's one of the things about the show I like is that they are showing how homophobia permeated through everything before and after the murders.

I followed the story pretty closely on CNN and in the newspapers (remember those?) that summer and read the vanity fair article, but I wonder how much my memory of it was eclipsed by Diana's death soon after.

[quote]I thought Jeff was just a friend of Andrews

He was just a friend. According to everyone who knew them Jeff and Andrew were friends and never had a sexual relationship (even though Andrew probably wanted to...)

R454, This "spoiler about reality* nonsense is straight from previouslytv.com. They enforced this "episode only" with the OJ series too because there actually were people who said they didn't know of the crimes and trial.

Yes, history is now considered a "spoiler." (Should we tell them that that big ship sinks?)

[quote]I followed the story pretty closely on CNN and in the newspapers (remember those?) that summer and read the vanity fair article, but I wonder how much my memory of it was eclipsed by Diana's death soon after.

It was the same with me. I watched CNN, read newspaper and magazine articles. I remember 20/20 and Dateline episodes about Versace and the hunt for Cunanan. I remember quite bit of coverage on Cunanan for a few days after his suicide.

HSN schedule today says Marilyn Miglin Beauty thru the day today.

DL covered the Cunanan case extensively at the time. It was covered on gay media.

The real Marilyn Miglin is on the Home Shopping Network (HSN) RIGHT NOW.

She looks good.

Anyone remember the Fionnula Flanagan Emmy troll on the True Blood threads?

The show apparently got higher ratings than "Game Of Thrones" in Italy.

I don't think I got to DL until two years after Versace was killed. I would have loved to have followed the case here.

I wonder how the Italians are going to feel about the rest of the series which barely has any Versace in it.

Dear R488. We Italians, we-a gonna be very mad-da if-a there no more Versace!!

R468 There is another book called Three Month Fever by Gary Indiana that is very good.

The author'th name ith Gary Indiana? Poor guy. That thuckth.

R490 The only thing I don't love about that book is that he re-imagines conversations between Andrew and his victims, as well as internal monologues.

True, R491. It’s hard to tell what is real or imagined. Overall, it’s still a more satisfying read than Orth’s book.

Does anyone know how to find old DL threads on Cunanan and the Versace murder? I saw one not too long ago, but can’t find it now.

Here is one from 2010 r494.

The DL news archives on Cunanan

It is very interesting reading those news reports in "real time" in R496.

How odd that Cunanan was living very openly in South Beach for such a long time while being on the FBI Top 10 Wanted List. What a fuck up by law enforcement!

Back when DL had news articles.

If any of you are Scribd subscribers- the audiobook version of Maureen Orth's book is on there.

While the live ratings aren't anything to write home about, the show is doubling its viewership in live+3 days measurements.

Your point, r492?

R501 = Norman Mailer.

Those viewership ratings are still way down from OJ's live +3. This is about the OJ premiere but still.

[quote]With resepctive lifts of 62% and 68%, the opening of the Cuba Gooding Jr-starring tale of the murders of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman and the subsequent media circus of a trial pulled in 8.3 million viewers and 4.2 million among adults 18-49. That makes the beginning of the 10-episode first run of ACS the most watched series premiere in FX’s history.

Well of course, I doubt FX expected this series to get the same ratings OJ did. that was a massive ratings success for FX.

OJ was a world famous Black football legend, he was a famous movie star and a celebrity. He was a sportscaster and made fun commercials. he was a real presence in peoples lives. So there's no surprise that his story attracted massive ratings. He had it all, he was a huge success by most people's measure and he was accused of murdering his beautiful. BLONDE, ex wife and her suspected) lover. Gianni Versace didn't have the same level of appeal or fame. In fact, he and Donatella were really just becoming more mainstream as far as public consciousness goes.

The ratings aren't an issue in that FX will air the whole thing and it's awards bait. But there is also the fact that it loses viewers week on week.

[quote]The good news: unlike the second episode, the third installment of “The Assassination Of Gianni Versace: American Crime Story” did not suffer a massive hit in the live+same-day ratings. The bad news: episode three did still decline in adults 18-49 and overall viewership. According to live+same-day data posted by Showbuzz, Wednesday’s “American Crime Story” drew a 0.39 adults 18-49 rating and averaged 1.26 million overall viewers. Last week’s episode drew a 0.41 in the demo and 1.43 million in overall viewers. Those numbers were down sharply from the 0.72 rating and 2.22 million viewership figure posted by the premiere. While live+same-day viewership for “Versace” is dramatically weaker than that of the previous, OJ Simpson-themed season of “American Crime Story” (as well as that of any “American Horror Story” season), it is still solid by cable standards.

FX, moreover, publicly downplays live+same-day ratings in favor of data that accounts for multi-platform and delayed viewing. Based on the strong live+7 DVR lift for the premiere episode and the history of Ryan Murphy-produced programming on the network, “Versace” will benefit from that perspective.

well, let's just say that general public doesn't exactly LOVE to watch a young man french kissing a 70 yo man on their tv set.

Cody Fern is the no-name actor in the cast, but I noticed lots of critics singled him out.

Though he doesn't resemble David Madson who was not a slim twink but was a fairly built body-building type.

Hmm, is Fern one of us?

[quote]I had seen Elizabeth, the first one with Cate Blanchett, and it really made me want to become an actor.

Cody Fern is an Aussie actor. He must have fucked RM for this role.

Well if he's an Aussie, Cate Blanchett pactically rules in Australia. She's a real big deal. So I understand it.

I'm still so confused by the implication that Jeff Trial and David Madson were in a relationship together.

I think I may be done with this show.

David’s dog was useless!

I miss Marilyn.

This episode is really awful so far.

Maybe not a relationship but they’d had sex?

Whatever the show's drawbacks may be, Criss' portrayal of AC is downright creepy. Last week was bad, tonight its worse. I have the heebies!

Bette Midler’s daughter needs acting lessons.

Nobody else is watching this?

[quote]Criss' portrayal of AC is downright creepy.

He is doing a nice job being creepy, but the problem is that is ALL it has been so far. It's been one note.

I am. Super intense but I like it so far!

I will watch it on Saturday. Any Versace in this episode yet?

No r522. I've noticed lots of people on twitter have been complaining that the show is called Versace and there is no Versace.

The purposely misleading marketing for this show doesn't tell viewers it is actually about Andrew Cunanan.

Yay more Cunanan car karaoke.

This episode is all Agony Porn.

It may have been a mistake to show Andrew as a creepy murderer first and then go back to a time when he was a charming social guy or sympathetic kid, because no one may still be watching by then.

A ton of similar tweets like this have been all over the versace tag

[quote]I’m getting pissed about the assassination of Gianni Versace like where tf is Versace the past 2 episodes im over Andrew Cunanan

Cody Fern looks a slightly heavier Jimmi Simpson.

[quote]Bette Midler’s daughter needs acting lessons.

Oh, I agree. I'm probably the best acting spawn that Ryan is hired. I was certainly better than Grace Gummer.

The conversation between David and Andrew at the diner was good, because it finally gave you a little bit of the backstory you would have if this show wasn't done in reverse.

Can’t help thinking this would have been better if the timeline wasn’t backwards.

Interesting they had a scene where David Madson could've escaped and didn't. I was surprised by that choice since outside of that they chose to portray him as a person who was completely trapped.

Article from the time about the person who saw them in that bar together

[quote]On May 2, Madson's red Jeep with the Vail ski area bumper sticker was spotted heading north up Interstate 35. Shortly after 1 p.m., two young men in khaki pants and open shirts walked into the Full Moon Bar & Restaurant in a speck of a town called Stark, just off the highway. Owner Jean Rosen pegged Cunanan and Madson out of a photo lineup. Cunanan requested a seat on the deck despite the gray, blustery day. He ordered two Grainbelt beers and a California cheeseburger basket and Madson said he'd have the same. Madson seemed jumpy. He looked over his shoulder every time the front door opened. But whatever he feared, it didn't seem to be his companion. They sat across from each other at a picnic table and talked earnestly, sometimes smiling, sometimes touching hands, all through lunch. That night, police believe, Madson was shot three times about five miles away at East Rush Lake. Fishermen discovered the body near Jeep tracks in the grass. The vehicle was gone.

[quote]This episode is all Agony Porn.

It was, but I thought the last act was powerful and worked well. The first two thirds were a bit of a slog.

I’d like Forbidden Broadway to do a spoof of this called Merrily I Killed A Lot. With someone playing Criss as Cunanan as his character from How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying.

how are we liking episode 4

not bad

pity finn witrock not have bigger character consider his....talents.

andrew looks hot 2nite

why is the blonde demading to call cops???

andrew will kill u dummy !!!

yea the constant flashbacks is gonna confuse most mortals....

which episode did matt bomer direct

were the cops so dumb as to really mis identify the victim/killer?

dont seem possible

omg aimee mann sings a song in this one...

finn shoulda played cunnanan.

bit more talented than mr criss...

EEK I'm a few minutes into the new episode and this is actually scary

Bomer directed Episode 8 where Cunanan is a child growing up in CA, I think. Long way to go before we get there! This episode at least hinted that he was charming at some time in the past.

Vanity Fair attributes Madsen’s compliant behavior to “gay shame.” That may be true, but there is not enough substance in this one episode to support it. Also, Madsen’s & Trail’s families and friends were hounded to death by the police and the the press, but there is just the one brief scene of the police telling David’s parents that David was complicit in killing Jeff. I believe they were actually told that David was the victim at first because the police did not identify the body correctlyy.. Cunanan and Madsen were actually together for a couple of days in the apartment and several more on the road. They were seen walking the dog together a couple of times. It was confusing to police., whose lack of interest at the crime scene was supposedly because both victim and perpetrator were gay.

Australian actor Cody Fern (David Madson) has an Andrew McCarthy thing going on.

Darren Criss looks shit and awkward as fuck to watch.

Guess a new thread is starting here?

I read another article also in vanity fair - on the same issue r543 mentioned. Cunanan was a true sociopath so he may have had some manipulative control over David... it's a good article

[quote]Cunanan’s influence over Madson was “to a degree Stockholm syndrome,” explaining, “these sexually sadistic offenders have that ability to control people—not necessarily physical control. Many times it’s just out of fear.”

AC was making him think it would be safer if he didn't escape or intimidating him in other ways (like the article above, AC used the "they hate us" stuff with gay people vs the cops). It seems like it was well written to portray this, even if it is completely fictional, since nobody knows what happened.

Pretty clear now "The Assassination of Gianni Versace" is a misnomer. The heinous killings of most of Andrew Cunanan's other, non-famous victims is given equal weight. This may be the best on-screen portrayal of a true crime story since 1967's In Cold Blood. I like it better than "The People Vs. OJ" which was a very good mini-series with elements of camp. Versace plays like an eight-hour feature; a brutal and stark character study. I'm blown away that this is on television.

actor doing Madsen is very good

makes criss look like an amateur

Great episode. Heartbreaking when David ran into the cabin/trailer and his father was there. Those with ADD can take heart, Versace and Donatella return next week.

They tried to make an excuse about the name, saying "we didn't just talk about OJ - we also wrote it as a redemption for Marcia Clark"

Yeah ok - Marcia Clark was still basically tied right into the trial. David & Matt are not related to versace in any way except through Cunanan. The show's appropriate title is "The Cunanan Murders, which includes Gianni Versace who is the famous one so we can get more people to watch"

And PS I don't mind it being about Cunanan... it's an interesting (if not gruesome) story that I don't remember well from 97 at all (never read the book on it). I thought it would've been more interesting to see more of Versace's life though, if they could've made the show more about that... which it seems next week will do a little.

The only other issue is that a lot of things surrounding Cunanan had to be fictionalized from scant detail because there isn't enough info. I would think Versace's life had a lot more people in it with a lot more you could do a show about...certainly enough for 3-4 episodes on him alone, in the last 10 years of his career, let's say (or even a flashback to the start of him selling fabric in Milan - or whatever he did in the early days). I thought the show was going to do that, given the title. The final problem is that the acting that Criss is doing is just not very good to hold an entire show together. Ok - he's creepy - fine... but there's no dimension at all.

i agree,

mr criss' acting in the end is what make the series weak..

This last episode really got to me. The actors, the build up, the plot plus I was once a struggling Architect at the same time those were going on. I didn't even know about that murder back then. I remember the clothes and the music so well, its creeping me out. Mission accomplished.

Maybe the portrayals of Cunanen’s earlier years will show more depth of character. So far Criss comes across as very shallow.

the acting so good tonite, specially the madsen guy, i think it all took it up a notch.

yes tonites was a thriller, was so rooting for madsen

The FBI estimates that there are between twenty-five and fifty serial killers operating throughout the U.S.

Food for thought next time you have that late night hookup with a total stranger.

True r557. I moved close to the IL / WI border and now my apps give me people from WI - and I am scared. Too many serial killers from WI.

Darren Criss is really amazing in the role, I think. I find him at turns creepy, chilling, and dead-eyed scary. I've met so many garden-variety gay sociopaths/pathological liars like him over the years in West Hollywood. They were actually more common in the 90s. These guys would lie as soon as they opened their mouths about where they were from and how they grew up. You'd catch on immediately because dates and timelines wouldn't add up. The longer I was in LA, the easier it was for me to spot and avoid them. They all had this weird self satisfied confidence, and I think Criss NAILS that aspect of it. These guys sort of WERE bad actors in and of themselves, so maybe that's what people are seeing.

I think where the first three took us into the world of wealth and privilege that Cunanan felt locked out of, episode four was just stark, and sad. The brutal, quick slaying of Jeffrey Trail was so pointless and horrific- it made me depressed. The shocked, numb reaction of David Madson, and his subsequent trip though hell with Cunanan was brilliantly played by Cody Fern, and directed by Daniel Minahan.

As I said above, to me, this is even better than the OJ series. I think it tells the story in a more real way. OJ was great, and fun at times and campy. But Versace to me is basically an eight-hour long feature film. A character study of a highly disturbed individual who brought much misery and suffering into this world.

[quote]Bette Midler’s daughter needs acting lessons.

Cut the shit, she was absolutely fine.

That episode was painful to sit through. Mostly because it was so fucking boring. How the hell this shit is gonna drag on for 5 more weeks is beyond me.

Bitch bitch bitch and you'll still watch.

YOU DON'T KNOW ME!

Promo for ep 5, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". Finn Wittrock gets his showcase.

R398's FBI file mentions that Cunanan did a porn film. Anyone seen it?

Supposedly he was in some kind of underground porn that wasn't ever released. I don't think he had the necessary equipment for real porn.

If that’s him, he sure looks like Darren Criss.

[quote]The conversation between David and Andrew at the diner was good, because it finally gave you a little bit of the backstory you would have if this show wasn't done in reverse.

David said that Andrew was funny and charming when they first met, I hope we actually see that in a future episode as the show continues to flash back. So far, there's not a hint of anything that would have drawn people to Cunanan, either as friends or lovers.

[quote]So far, there's not a hint of anything that would have drawn people to Cunanan, either as friends or lovers.

Yes... it's a glaring mistake in my opinion. Psychopaths tend to be very charismatic. It's a huge part of the puzzle of how they operate....yet totally missing here.

I mean the basic storytelling rule is "show don't tell". Right now the show is relying on dialog to tell you this backstory, it will get there....eventually.

Many critics had a problem with the choice move backwards, and I see why.

They could've done AC's live in parallel with Versace's life - unfolding over time (in chronological order) ... might have been more interesting.

R550, You mean "ran into." That bit was a dying Madson's vision.

Tom Rob Smith on the episode

[quote]“The key image for me in the entire piece is when David Madson almost escapes,” said Smith. “He’s in the restroom of a bar, and he looks out the window at the world, and he sees the world passing him by. You’d think when you’ve been kidnapped by a killer that freedom is going to be a thing that’s incredibly exciting—you’re desperate to get to.” But to Madson, the greatest tragedy of these final hours was that, as a gay man in the 1990s, the outside world did not offer a much better alternative. Smith explains: “He looks out the window and thinks, ‘What am I escaping to? Disgrace? Hatred? There is no freedom.’ The world that is beyond this window that in every other thriller he would have climbed out of and run screaming for help—there is no help. The people coming to arrest Andrew Cunanan would also arrest him, because there’s no way they would believe he had nothing to do with Jeffrey Trail’s death. ‘They’ll hate me like they hate him, because they hated me before.’”

Also he thought David was there when Jeff was murdered, that he must have witnessed that shock. Maureen thought David wasn't present. A mystery that will never be solved.

[quote]David said that Andrew was funny and charming when they first met, I hope we actually see that in a future episode as the show continues to flash back. So far, there's not a hint of anything that would have drawn people to Cunanan, either as friends or lovers.

In Orth's book, it was said that Andrew was charming and funny in middle school and high school. But, he was also known to be shallow and materialistic.

[quote]were the cops so dumb as to really mis identify the victim/killer?

Yes. Jeff was killed Sunday night. The cops found the body Tuesday afternoon. They thought it was David's until around 10pm that night they realized the hair was the wrong color. So they left like depicted, they assumed it was some gay lovers quarrel gone wrong and not a big deal.

They came back with a search warrant Wednesday morning, and practically 24 hours after the murdered body did the identify it as actually being Jeff Trail's body. It was then Jeff's parents ended up finding out he was gay, Jeff had never told them.

I think if Trail had never been killed by Cunanan he would still be still be in the closet. From what I've read, he grew up in a super conservative family.

Such a sad episode. The scene in the bar was amazing.

I agree with the complaints about moving the story backwards; there's no reason for us to want to spend any more time with this psycho. And the title of the whole show doesn't quite make sense. But all that aside, taken on its own, that was a very powerful piece of television. The guy who played David deserves an Emmy nomination.

Cody thought Andrew could be quite romantic and charming to Dacid

[quote]Fern said that, to prepare for the role, he read over 50 postcards and letters that Cunanan sent Madson—illustrating Cunanan’s eerie detachment from reality. “Andrew would write to David when he was traveling or pretending to travel. He was in France or he was in Prague. The way he communicated through the letters, it was very clear they had a special relationship. Not knowing everything that comes later, it was the beginning of a beautiful love story.”

We will probably see Andrew be more charming especially in later episodes. Per an interview with Cody Fern we will see the start of their relationship.

Alan Sepinwall put it this way, and he was far from the only TV critic to express this opinion.

[quote]It’s a narratively audacious move, but a frustrating one, too. First, it asks us to understand and care about most of Cunanan’s victims, like Navy vet Jeff Trail (Finn Witrock) or soft-spoken architect David Madson (Cody Fern) only after we’ve seen them brutally killed. Worse, it does the same with Cunanan himself, who remains — despite an excellent, career-redefining performance by Glee alum Criss — a maddening cipher: a sociopath and pathological liar who becomes whatever he thinks the occasion calls for, even in front of people who think they know who he really is. For a long time, it feels as if Murphy, Smith, and company don’t even know who Cunanan was. And though the eighth episode — set in Cunanan’s child and teen years, and featuring Jon Jon Briones (currently starring on Broadway in Miss Saigon) as Cunanan’s profoundly influential father Modesto — finally begins to unravel the mystery man at the center of this all, it feels too little, too late for a show that’s spent so much time in the company of a man who keeps playing one variation of the same note, again and again.

Why did David Madson wear a Harvard sweatshirt in the opening scene, when he was on the phone with his architecture colleague?

As recently as beginning of Januarey they did some reshoots for this show. During filming Murphy was consistently having things rewritten and added. It felt like a jumbled mess while shooting it.

He was a guest lecturer for a course at Harvard r581. From Maureen's book, here is the background of David.

[quote]“David could take a project in architecture class and the professors would see it and say, ‘That’s terrible,’ ” says Rich Bonnin, his onetime roommate and fellow architect. “Then, after he’d talk it and market it, they’d say, ‘I love it!’ He had this ability to skim, to cajole, to charm and talk his way out of anything.” Along with his talent, he could sell. “David was a salesman. He was good at sales pitches, he was creative, and he liked money,” says Wendy, who thought he should go into advertising. “Architecture didn’t pay enough. David was a very money-motivated person.” Yet by the time David met Andrew, he was making architecture pay off.

[quote]He became a guest lecturer for an advanced urban-planning course at Harvard. He worked for the John Ryan Company in Minneapolis, designing “retail financial centers” for large banks, a $70,000-a-year position that took him all over the country. “David was an absolute joy to be around and an immensely talented person, on the precipice of becoming a leading designer in the world in his field,” says John Ryan.

January

You worked on the production r582? C'mon bitch, share more if so.

That “new” thread which R547 linked to should be disregarded. Whoever started it should have proofread it first. And added a capital letter.

You always have people who think they should start their own thread instead of consolidating conversation into the on-going thread. It is frustrating but always happens.

585 i was not with the shooting crew and was not full time but got a lot of work on it due to all the script changes. That was the best gossip I had.

Something I forgot about until I went back and checked the book. Maureen strongly believes this official story was bullshit.

The official narrative (and what was depicted on the show) is that David was with Andrew 6 days after Jeff's death Sunday. They ate at Full Moon cafe that Friday and then Andrew killed David later that day.

Maureen points out David's car got a parking ticket in Chicago near Lee Miglin's house on Wednesday. So you would have to believe that Andrew and David drove to Chicago, then drove back to Minnesota. The witnesses at the bar who describe what David was wearing were wrong about the clothes he was wearing when he died. The autopsy found no recently eaten food in David's stomach even though he supposedly ate a cheeseburger at the bar. And when Maureen interviewed the waitresses they kept fucking up the date that they supposedly saw David/Andrew.

David's body was found Saturday, and his time of death was ruled Friday. Maureen is convinced that David was killed Tuesday, after they fled his loft in Minneapolis. Andrew drives alone to Chicago then, thus the parking ticket Wednesday.

I like the use of 80s pop music. Why nothing from 1997 or that decade? Interesting.

R589, but if the coroner ruled that Madson died on Friday, I don't think that determination would be off by three days. How did Maureen Orth explain that discrepancy?

This is what Maureen writes about it r591, according to her interview the coroner herself admitted it was a guess.

[quote]She also took a sample of vitreous humor from David’s eye. As the cells of the eye decompose, they release potassium, which can be used to measure normal potassium levels in the blood. The higher the level of potassium, the longer the body has been dead. After a week, the vitreous dries out altogether. But Dr. Thomas did not test the fluid, which was simply preserved. Some medical examiners test it routinely; others use it only when they need multiple gauges to determine time of death, particularly if the time of death is in doubt. “I don’t know why,” Dr. Thomas says when asked why she didn’t test the vitreous humor. “I guess because it’s so unreliable—I would never use itin court.” Larvae from the maggots found in David’s mouth were also preserved, since they too have an exact life cycle and are considered a reliable measure if other factors, such as accurate climate data regarding where the body was found, can also be determined. The bugs were not tested, either, because the procedure is costly, few entomologists do it, and there didn’t seem to be any real need for it. Dr. Plunkett and Todd Rivard saw David’s body themselves, and it looked fresh. Moreover, the lady who owned the Rush Lake Resort had reported hearing gunshots on Thursday.

[quote]As for the exact time of death, “there really is no good way to do it,” says Dr. Thomas. “Quincy could do it on TV, novelists can do it. In all honesty, the most accurate is when was the person found? When was the person last seen reliably?” She adds, “It’s so dependent on what the weather’s like; that’s the trouble. If it’s warm, the body decomposes quickly; if it’s cold, somebody can stay fresh-looking for days. It depends on the ground cover and the position of the body.” On the autopsy report Dr. Thomas placed the time of death as Friday, May 2.

Thanks, R592. It's a shame that those tests weren't performed. If I were a relative or friend of Madson's, I would want to know whether he was killed on Tuesday or Friday.

It looks like the show is ignoring this little factoid, but Andrew was the second bad-boyfriend David had had. He had another stalker ex that harassed him, at first they looked into him as a possible suspect in David's death.

Between Andrew and that guy he swore off white guys, he had been only dating black guys before he died.

[quote]Robbie Davis was a tall, self-described “BAP”—Black American Prince—from Washington, D.C., whose family owned a thriving commercial cleaning business. Robbie was cool and street-wise, the first of several black boyfriends David would have. “They came from a different upbringing, and he found that very intriguing,” says Wendy Petersen. “He felt he had had bad relationships at the time, especially with white guys. He felt he had been stabbed in the back, stepped on, or taken advantage of.” David also sympathized “with many of the minorities’ struggles,” says Monique Salvetti.

.

Here we go. Greg Nelson was his name

[quote]But his easygoing charm and need to help attractive, screwed-up cases made David a target. Before meeting Andrew, David had been deeply burned by a handsome lover of two years, who began stalking and harassing him after he asked him to move out. The stalker, Greg Nelson, who spread false rumors that David had given him HIV, finally had to be jailed after repeatedly violating a court order to stay away from David. Sometimes Nelson would call him as many as 120 times a day. He gave David’s number to sex-phone lines so that people “looking for action” would call. He sent pornographic literature along with a nude picture of David to senior partners in David’s law firm, saying, “Do you know what your employees do?”

[quote]At 12:15, Linda and Laura went to David’s loft, and as Laura knocked on the door she thought she heard whispering inside. The dog began pawing and scratching, but no one answered. Linda, who had been with David recently when he found his car scratched, was afraid that Greg Nelson might have come after David.

[quote]Greg Nelson called the police to find out if David was a homicide victim. He said he understood from his lawyer that if this were true he could be a murder suspect. To eliminate himself, he said he could fax copies of plane tickets that showed that he had flown back to Washington, D.C., where he lived, on April 23. He also accused David of “psychological and physical abuse.” That and other evidence the police were gathering “to corroborate S&M activity,” according to Tichich, continued to make them believe that David could have taken part in Jeff’s murder.

Poor David, he sure attracted some crazy fucking guys.

Some people attract the crazies. Usually ones that are genuine and kind which the crazies use to manipulate them.

I agree with everyone who's wondering why ANYONE would be charmed by Cunanan. I know we're seeing only the end of these relationships, when they've figured him out, but so far he's only been decent to the hotel lady. Even Ronnie I couldn't figure out why he liked Andrew. I like Darren Criss a lot in general, but yeah, he's never been great, at least on camera. There's still moments when I'm annoyed by his performance in this and there's others where I think he nails it? Overall, I think the good moments have outweighed the bad ones thus far. He was better in the first two episodes. I'm hoping he'll deliver something similar or better in the remaining ones.

I was into the backward narrative in the beginning, but now I really need to see Andrew be something other than creepy/crazy.

This thread is about full

Andrew sent many amusing romantic love letters to David when they were apart (which was most of the time).

[html removed]I think maybe you’re kind of smart & I’m a little undone because your gifts were so sweet. They made me feel good about the world. I can’t wait to see you. Until then I just content myself with these photos in hues of ice, pearl, mist, ash (not stark, stylish) and remember through-the-veil-of-imagination with them. Yours, Drew

(Sorry, used the wrong syntax for quote.)

That is hysterical, R599!

I think he'll get a bit more likeable and now it's pre murder quest. However, his motives were always skewed and he used people to get what he wanted. I guess he loved Madson in his own way if he was even cause of love.