Kitty Carlisle

I recall she was in a Marx Brothers film. She lived to age 96, one hell of a full life.

I remember her from reruns of To Tell the Truth and some other older game shows that reran when I was young. She had a sense of grace and dignity that not every panelist possessed.

She was a cunt.

Found this one.

Another

She looked likek an off-brand Ann Miller, minus the glamour and mystique!

Looked like Leni Riefenstahl.

R1 can pull up a picture but not note that it's from "A Night at the Opera." Mme. Lazy Vague.

Kitty's mother did have visions and drive for her daughter to be a fabulous opera singer, but Kitty had to admit her talents lay elsewhere.

Found another!

Loved her hairdo!

Yes, R9! We think she's tremendous!

Oh yes, dear, dear Kitty...

I simply adored Kitty...

and her homosexual husband Moss

OP, her head is forever preserved so that she can provide quippy remarks on game shows.

I'm more of a Bret Sommers

Kitty Carlisle was born Catherine Conn (pronounced Cohen) in New Orleans, Louisiana, of German-Jewish heritage.

Her father, Joseph Conn, MD, was a gynecologist who died when she was ten years old.

Her mother, Hortense Holzman Conn, considered to be an overbeaing stage mother by some, was eager for her daughter to be accepted by local society. A taxi driver once asked if her daughter was Jewish, and Hortense answered, "She may be, but I'm not."

Little known fact: Moss and Kitty's Buck's County retreat, Fairview Farm, had one of the first electric toothbrushes ever made hardwired into the bathroom wall.

Farming is so charming they all say...

A friend of mine from high school named her cat Kitty Carlisle.

A friend had a coworker named "Kitty Titsworth"

[quote]Little known fact: Moss and Kitty's Buck's County retreat, Fairview Farm, had one of the first electric toothbrushes ever made hardwired into the bathroom wall.

Moss knew that Kitty could sometimes smell the cum on his breath...

A long time ago, Ms. Carlisle was doing some sort of one-woman show that was a retrospective of her life in theatre. I believe she was in her 80s at the time. Kitty was performing in SF and all of the aging queens paid homage to her. My friends attended and I was encouraged to go, but I had visons of the whole thing being sad and cringe worthy. The reports were that her presentation was in a flat 'sing/speak' mode. Besides, I had to be at the airport the next day and wanted to save my energy.

The next day she was flying to her next venue in Palm Springs as I was flying out of the city as well. I happened to see her go through the degradation of TSA check in a wheelchair for her comfort. Needless to say, Kitty was over dressed for current day air travel and really stood out from the low maintenance attire at SFO. She was also smaller than I had imagined and her hair was jet black.

Ironically, she and her assistant were at the gate across from mine. He had returned with some fast-food and they were eating out of Styrofoam containers! I truly enjoyed calling my friend to let him know that one of the notable women NYC society (that he had paid money to see the previous evening) was eating airport food with a plastic fork. For the most part, other travelers didn't recognize her, or were respectful enough to allow her some privacy.

The whole scene contrasted with the urbane sophistication Kitty tried to express on To Tell the Truth and other appearances. Never meet your heroes.

^ especially when they have cold greasy Sbarro's hanging out of their teeth

When she was on What's My Line, I once asked my grandmother "Why is she wearing a crown?" She said "It's not a crown it's a tiara and she's probably going to the opera."

R19 Probably just an convenience thing.

She’s charming in “A Night at the Opera,” a d did her own singing. I understand she also sang at the Met, an accomplishment in itself.

R2: I'll watch reruns of, "To Tell the Truth" just to see what Miss Kitty Carlisle is wearing.

R14 I remember seeing her on a talk show one time (Tom Snyder?). She said her mother was a hard-driving stage mother who pushed and pushed, hoping her singing would improve over time and with experience. Once, after a few years, Kitty finished singing and got off stage, and Hortense said to her, "My dear, we've made a terrible mistake."

I am always taken aback--why?--when young, know-nothing bitches on DL decide to get funny about someone like Kitty Carlisle--the embodiment of Manhattan glamour, who moved in the highest circles of Broadway creativity. I saw her one-woman show years ago and it was marvelous, elegant--like Kitty Carlisle herself.

[quote]Carlisle's mother took her to Europe in 1921, where she hoped Kitty would marry European royalty...They...often lived in what Carlisle recalled as "the worst room of the best hotel" [wiki]

[quote]Fairview Farm, had one of the first electric toothbrushes ever made hardwired into the bathroom wall.

It did more than brush teeth.

When I was a kid watching her after school on TO TELL THE TRUTH I always found her too brittle and and grand. I much preferred the giddy zaniness of Peggy Cass. I always had the impression that Peggy didn't care much for Kitty. Were there ever stories of any animosity or was it all just in my vicious little gayling mind?

She was on a show once talking about how she and her daughter (?) were on their way to an event in full evening attire. She always took the bus in New York she said. For some reason, that cemented in my mind her effortless sophistication -- taking a bus in a ball gown. It said so much about New York and her. Just a quirky memory to have.

You lost me at beautiful.

Dressed nicely, had B.O., did big stinkies in the bathroom. Halitosis.

God, most of you are not funny. You not creative. You are, to use a word Kitty would have approved of, vulgar.

The thing I admire about her is that she understood from a young age that her mother was going to pimp her out, whether it was in the theatre or opera; failing that, mother would foist Kitty onto a European "nobleman" of some sort. In either case, mom was hoping Kitty's good fortune would, in turn, provide for her and she'd bask in the glow of Kitty's good fortune.

Kitty was having none of it, but did take her training and put it to use and made her own path in life. She married well, she entertained fabulously, was a good and generous friend to many over the decades. She maintained a quasi-career on TV, was widowed and perservered, later became one of New York state's biggest and very successful arts advocates.

Bravo Kitty! And not one of you nasty bitches can claim to have accomplished anything similar, which may account for your fetid posts.

If she dropped the Carlisle after she got married, she'd be known as Kitty Hart! Meow!

R24, most eldergays know that's a quote from Ned Rorem.

She was a classy broad.

The thing I remember most about her is that she rarely closed her mouth.

She's in the final scene of Six Degrees of Separation (just a bit part). What an amazing career.

She knows opera, as does Charles Nelson Reilly and Ms. Madeline Kahn

PArt 2

Is Kitty into freaky shit?

This is the most talk this fossil has gotten in decades

I sat behind her at a play one time in New York many years ago in the 90s. I talk to her during intermission. She was a hoot and really lovely.

[quote]She was a hoot and really lovely.

IIRC, Kitty used to tell a story about an awkward encounter she had with former First Lady Lady Bird Johnson, who was visiting New York and met Kitty at a social function.

The subject of the current Broadway shows came up, and Kitty said, "Oh Mrs. Johnson, you simply must 'Best Little Whorehouse in Texas'; it's a marvelous show!"

Lady Bird, who was apparently offended that her native state of Texas was associated with whore house was not amused, and said, "That is one show I will NOT be seeing."

But Kitty later apologized to Mrs. Johnson for her remark, and she said Mrs. Johnson was very gracious.

Were any of her kids successful, other than Belinda?

^ No, Belinda is the most successful/well-known...

You know, apart from her child who built The Carlyle Hotel, a/k/a The Carlisle Hotel.

how old are you. op?

Yes , one of the gayest of all YouTube clips-the NYC Premiere of A Star is Born (1954) with Jinx Falkenburg interviewing among others Kitty Carlisle and Miss Hart (at 14:45) Enjoyable and nostalgic .

I have to give it to Kitty - in addition to being gay - and a self loathing gay at that - Moss Hart suffered from overwhelming crushing depression. She wasn’t an idiot - she knew he was gay. She knew that everybody else knew that he was gay. He also had a mean spirited shrink who gave him questionable treatment. She said she and Moss would go out and walk, walk, walk, walk his depression off. She would stay awake with him and have him tell her stories - which later turned into Act One. he directed My Fair Lady and Camelot with her and had his heart attacks. She changed his legacy. She created beautiful homes, entertained, gave him 2 children. It takes an enormous amount of energy to be “perfect.” Especially when you know that you will never be his first choice.

“Kitty, you’ve been with me through thick.” (Attributed to Moss Hart.)

Or, “You’ve stood by me through thick.”

She was likely on the verge of remarrying, & being Mrs. Thomas E. Dewey, when the two-time GOP presidential nominee & former NYS governor died unexpectedly in 1971 at the age of 68.

As a regular TTTT viewer, I got the impression that Kitty & Peggy Cass got along well. I wouldn’t say the same about Kitty & Orson Bean.

Kitty on TTTT to a female bowler: "Number 2, how heavy are the men's balls?"

Well said, r49.

Showtime USA '51

[quote]Especially when you know that you will never be his first choice.

That would be the built-in electric toothbrush in the master bathroom.

R49, that's an interesting reflection on the marriage, especially the part about Kitty knowing Moss was gay, but she had married him anyway.

I say that because I heard her speak about Lorenz (Larry) Hart, the lyricist... Larry proposed to Kitty, she said she turned him down, because she knew he was gay...

I think that Lorenz Hart was a “dangerous” guy. brilliant but maybe a little bit of an emotional monster. No edit button. We have all had those friends - you confide in them and they use it as a weapon later. He was indiscreet. He was from the Truman Capote messy place. I think that Kitty made a very good “deal.” I seem to recall that Moss always had a dork on his arm - I think they called them “Moss’s Girls.” So Kitty wasn’t even first place as one of his women. BUT Ashe was was smart, cultured, well read, well travelled. She was talented but not TOO talented. In a way she understood Moss being in the closet. She traveled through Europe with her monster mother in the 20s & 30s - a scary time to be Jewish. Moss and Kitty were both older and sadder when they got together and both wanted the same kind of life at that point. It must have been a refuge and a winning lottery ticket to marry Moss. He got a discreet friend and mother type - he married a “family member” of not a lover. They both knew that his success was more important than hers. In turn he have her a place to be safe and shine. ….. I don’t remember how Josh and Nedda Logan got together.

Dork? WHERE did THAT come from? Always had a GIRL on his arm! ^

[quote] I am always taken aback--why?--when young, know-nothing bitches on DL decide to get funny about someone like Kitty Carlisle--the embodiment of Manhattan glamour, who moved in the highest circles of Broadway creativity. I saw her one-woman show years ago and it was marvelous, elegant--like Kitty Carlisle herself.

Now start sobbing and angrily tell them you feel SORRY for them, Mary!

[quote] Lady Bird, who was apparently offended that her native state of Texas was associated with whore house was not amused, and said, "That is one show I will NOT be seeing."

I hope Kitty replied, "I bet Lyndon would have gone!"

Kitty & Allan

All Kitty fans! Please check out that link at r55 at the 14:00 mark to hear Kitty sing to Moss Irving Berlin's "It's a Lovely Day Today" in the sweetest contralto this side of Jane Froman. Thanks, for posting!

Oh boy - I love that clip of Kitty singing “It’s a Lovely Day Today!” I think that was probably the closest to her real personality. I have a feeling that that cheerful, enthusiastic slightly dorky personality is what cheered Moss through the later years of his life. Thank you for posting that!!

*2* GIRLS *2*

How fun!! Poor Arlene - it looks like her illness was starting to nestle in. Kitty looked slim and fabulous. Those two old broads made Jerry Stiller seem “boyish!” The “To tell the Truth” and I’ve Got a Secret jokes were cute. Thank you for posting the clip - what a find!

Who was that nude guy at the end of the Tattinger's clip? He looked so familiar, I know I'm going to be embarrassed when someone tells me.

They really needed Bess Myerson or Betsy Palmer at Kitty and Arlene's table if they were going to make all those I've Got a Secret jokes.

R64 Do we have to watch the entire show including the scene from The Front Page in order to see it?

Dumb bitch

No, r68, I posted about the song first and told you to go to the 14:00 mark. It's almost in the exact middle of the clip.

Years ago, I only knew Kitty as being on TTTT and a bit of a joke. In the early 70s, we went to Prospect Park to see a presentation of Die Fledermaus by the Metropolitan Opera. Kitty was the narrator and also played Prince Orlofsky. Surprisingly to us, she was wonderful, and it was my introduction to who Kitty really was. Saw her later in On Your Toes on Broadway, but I thought she was miscast.

I never understood even as a little kid why she overdressed to be on a cheesy game show panel set. In feather boas and diamonds. But she was likable and in fact To Tell the Truth had a kind of magic formula with its panel. My mom. Watched the show every day in the afternoon. She would always do all the housework early so she cold could watch shows like that and Password.

As a kid Kitty certainly made more sense to me than Arlene Francis, but not that much more - I guess I assumed she was some kind of royalty.

Later, I read in TV Guide that she never wore the same dress on TV more than once, and she had numerous rolling racks of gowns in a room in her apartment. That impressed me.

Have you recently watched clips of What's My Line? (the original evening program), r73? As a child watching it in the 60s I never got Arlene but watching her on those old shows now, I can totally appreciate her charisma, charm, and sense of humor.

I'm not sure I can say the same about Kitty. Though I will say that long after TTTT in her TV interviews she showed a warmth that I never saw before.

Kitty Carlisle was so elegant and classy. I loved to watch her on TV.

Kitty Carlisle was authentically warm and charming in person, truly a lost art.

R76 until Melania

Kitty was lovely, but I preferred Arlene, who always seemed much more down to earth and fun.

You guys are going to think I’m crazy - I went on a huge dive into What’s my Line several years ago. I LOVED Arlene and Bennett Cerf talking about their lives in Mount Kisco. but what I really noticed was the strong resemblance and mannerisms and earthy quality that Arlene and Helen Mirren share.

Helen never made the cover of Theatre Arts.

Why did she stick with that playskool doll hairstyle? She was an extremely attractive woman but the hair ruined it all. I love Kitty but I to prefer Arlene. I love the downright cuntiness of Bess Myerson on I've Got a Secret. Talk about a gorgeous woman. If I were a contestant the year Bess won, the minute I saw Bess on stage I would have gone back to the hotel room, packed my bags, and gone home. There was nothing likeable about her on the IGAS though. It was great TV. Poor chinless Dorothy.

I've mentioned this before, r81, I had a book that described Arlene as "pert" and Dorothy as "quince-faced".

I didn’t really care for Arlene Francis. he fake heartiness.

*The fake heartiness.

R82, that is the best picture of Dorothy I've ever seen.

Where do they come from...

^

Kitty sang the Oscar-nominated song, Sweet Dreams, Sweetheart, in Hollywood Canteen (1944), but I couldn’t find a clip of her performance.

Betsy Palmer was my favorite of all those Goodson/Todman game show ladies. I had a huge crush on her as a kid, watching IGAS, and then years later (mid-1980s) got to work with her on a play and she was happily just as sweet and generous as I'd hoped, with a great sense of humor.

As an opening night gift she gave me what she called a Barrymore Apple, which was a beautifully crafted and painted wooden red apple, some kind of a theatrical tradition, I guess.

Sadly, watching IGAS now is a chore. That show just doesn't hold up as well as WML and TTTT.

I've watched IGAS on the YouTube. It's only OK. I can't imagine that it held up well when it was on. It must have had a great lead in. I did love Betsy Palmer. Jason's Voerhee's Mom. The only outstanding parts of the show where the ones that were Betsy centric. Like her first boss when she was a teen came on or when an actor who played her baby, and was now a teen, from one of her first movie roles came on. Kudos to Polly Bergen for turning her panel stint on TTTT into quite and impressive career.

OY!!!

Wasn’t IGAS the most highly-rated of the three shows?

Polly Bergen was hilarious in her appearance as a Mystery Guest on WML because she didn't very neatly fit into any category - film actress, stage actress, singer, comedienne, leading lady, etc. She did a bit of all that, of course, but couldn't seem to firmly answer yes to any of those descriptions the panelists tried to pin on her.

Betsy and Bess replaced Faye Emerson and Jayne Meadows as panelists on IGAS sometime in the early 60s.

Why was Faye Emerson famous apart from being, briefly, FDR’s daughter-in-law?

Jayne Meadows was Mrs Steve Allen. And was born in Wuhan, China.

Faye Emerson was probably the most beloved and popular woman of early1950s TV, Lucy (possibly) excepted.

Though she was a minor film actress throughout the 1940s, she moved over to TV in the very beginning in 1949 with her own very successful talk show and often appeared on other talk shows and various game shows throughout the decade, and like Arlene Francis, she was a great conversationalist, which went a long way in the early years of unscripted TV. She was gracious, charming and considered quite beautiful. After divorcing FDR's son she married bandleader Skitch Henderson.

[quote]Kudos to Polly Bergen for turning her panel stint on TTTT into quite and impressive career.

Seriously, r90?

MARY! MARY! MARY!

KITTY!

[quote] I've watched IGAS

I Gave A Shit? Wow, what a provocative title!

Huh, I can't find Polly's Helen Morgan Story. It used to be on Youtube. She won an Emmy for it.

"Oh Mrs. Johnson, you simply must 'Best Little Whorehouse in Texas'; it's a marvelous show!"

Guess who put her up to it?

R89 The Barrymores used to give each other an apple on opening nights. But I think it was a real apple.

I loved Kitty's song stylings of The Commodores "Brick House."

She sailed on the Normandie. Her cabin mate was Helen Hayes. Says it all.

It says she had the dough.

My favorite WML moment was when a very young, very hot Frank Gifford was on. He had both ladies as moist as an overripe peach. Arlene: "halfback, quarterback, I don't care what they call you. You have a beautiful back."

What if Sinead O'Connor had ripped up a picture of Kitty Carlisle on SNL?

She wouldn’t have lived to be 56.

Those Kitty-loving queens in NYC would have been the death of Sinead.

Kitty Dukakis was named after Kitty Carlisle, a family friend.

Two minutes of Kitty’s entrances on TTTT.

Unless I read a few things about Kitty I never would have guessed she was a southern hick.

How much Aquanet did she use on that hair? It never moved.

Kitty's obvious hatred of Polly was delicious.

[quote]what I really noticed was the strong resemblance and mannerisms and earthy quality that Arlene and Helen Mirren share.

Helen Mirren?

I don't know her.

Is it a bell?

" is it bigger than a bread box?". I remember Miss Carlisle Hart using this question quite frequently. I actually use it quite frequently myself on grinder.

No, it was Steve Allen's question. Sorry to be a dick but I became OBSESSED with the show on YouTube a few years ago. I've watched every episode on YouTube. My side obsession with it was counting the guests that the ladies stood up for when shaking there hands when they left the show.

R117, And when Bishop Fulton J. Sheen was the mystery guest, uber Catholic Dorothy Kilgallen kissed his ring.

Dorothy also stood for Eleanor Roosevelt, Ethel Barrymore, and a nun. Oh, and Louella Parsons.

[quote] Sorry to be a dick but I became OBSESSED with the show on YouTube a few years ago. I've watched every episode on YouTube. My side obsession with it was counting the guests that the ladies stood up for when shaking their hands when they left the show.

R117 I became obsessed with WML after recent DL threads about Arlene Francis and WML. I've now watched all the episodes on YouTube from 1950 to mid-1963 and plan to continue to the end of the original series in 1967. Although I'm old enough to have watched original airings in the mid-1960s as a kid, I didn't recall much detail about the shows.

My side obsession is seeing how quickly I can guess whether and how much Dorothy is inebriated. It started being noticeable to me in the late 1950s, when her previously perfect hairdos began to have the ends of curls sticking out unevenly. Her usual machine gun-speed questioning of contestants almost always slowed down on the shows where her hair was out of sorts. As time went on, she began to have trouble getting through the sometimes-long intros the panelists gave the panelist on their left. Then she began laughing, a lot. Then she began missing episodes but was always mentioned and wished well on-air. I've recently watched the worst case of her being clearly drunk so far, in an episode from mid-1963. It was embarrassing and sad. She then disappeared for several weeks, with no shout-outs to her during the shows. Kitty Carlisle sometimes filled in for her, and she was delightful and perfect for the "NY theatre/cafe society" style of the panelists. Phyllis Newman, who also filled in for Dorothy on some of the weeks, has always annoyed me, with her dumb, silly laughing and questionable singing intonation (on the Tonight show).

Dorothy was smart, ambitious, and successful in journalism, a "man's profession" at that time. She stuck out like a sore thumb on a program where the female panelists were called "Miss Dorothy" and "Miss Arlene", but Bennett Cerf was never called "Mr. Bennett." In that sense, Kitty Carlisle was more like Arlene and could be smart and funny without threatening the men. But the world was about to change by the late 1960s.

R120, Dorothy’s “inebriation” was due to pills rather than liquor.

R121 Do you mean the Seconal she took for sleep? I would have thought she would take that after getting home after the show and whatever nightlife followed it. Was she so dependent on it she took it throughout the day and early evening? Or is it known if she was taking other pills as well?

Apparently few have taken tranquilizers. There’s a reason people don’t take seconal any more.

*few here

The sweetest episode was when Dorothy's father was on. It was sweet to watch a hard-nosed reporter turn into a little girl. "Are you my father?"

and I believe Arlene stood for Dorothy's father.

That's more than Dorothy's mother ever did.

I love how all of you are recognizing how great I am!

Thanks for the compliments!

R125, The mystery guest on that same episode, Nanette Fabray, was hilarious.

Someone posted on DL years ago that they catered a party at Kitty’s UES apartment and was surprised to see it was not in great condition and needed renovations.

Strangely, some of us don't live in New York so it took me a while to figure out you meant Upper East Side.

I'm really enjoying the WML love here! Watching all those clips over the years is like taking a brilliant course in the sociological history of mid-century NY and all of America, for that matter.

And the Mystery Guests are an extraordinarily long lineup of Who's Who in Show Biz. I love how so many of the MGs reveal a sense of humor and comedic timing unlike anything they were ever given the opportunity to do in their film work, especially the young Elizabeth Taylor and Robert Wagner (2 appearances). Beauties like Ava Gardner, Kim Novak, Esther Williams, Ricky Nelson, Tab Hunter and Fabian shine even under that barbaric lighting and camera work. Whereas Gene Tierney, Hedy Lamarr and Betty Grable, among others sadly don't fare as well in their middle age. And the gorgeous young Charlton Heston is a big old stiff log of wood. A fave of mine is Irene Dunne in her first of 2 appearances in which she seems like a character she might have portrayed on film a decade earlier.

There are really not much more than a handful of stars who never made MG appearances, Marilyn Monroe, Clark Gable, Cary Grant among them. And I'm surprised Mary Martin never appeared, especially as she was in NY throughout the 1950s appearing on Broadway.

There are a few years worth of missing episodes from the early 1950s - oh, how I wish they would finally be discovered in someone's garage somewhere!

In the '50s in proper observation of then-etiquette, a woman wouldn't stand to greet a man. A man would stand (or at least get up, slightly) when greeting a woman. A woman might stand for an older woman like Mrs. Roosevelt or Ethel Barrymore. Or an older gentleman. Naturally I could be wrong.

Bennett often called Arlene and Dorothy "girls" thinking it was a form of flattery. Can you imagine if they referred to him as a "boy" when he offered up his disdain of sack dresses and rock and roll?

At least she wasn’t as useless as Arlene Francis. But the bar is low.

R133, One mystery guest the producers did not dare book was Sylvia Sidney, Bennett’s first wife, who was in several Broadway productions during the WML? years.

R133, Linda Darnell looked sensational in this 1956 mystery guest appearance.

Linda Darnell is absolutely glorious in that clip! What a doll.

Was there ever a more gorgeous contestant on TTTT - or WML or IGaS, for that matter - than the male model in the first game of this episode? Polly Bergen was almost at a loss for words in the presence of such beauty.

Mallow’s novel Finale features her occasionally and she’s a soothing presence, her old school affability a comfort from the crudeness of most people in power in the 80s.

The novel really is a must-read for the gay man of a certain age. Kitty! Hinckley! Bette Davis! NANCY!

Even better, listen to the audiobook, even if you’re not an audiobook person. Christopher Lane’s droll narration will have you in stitches.

Mallon ^^^

I love Mallon's work, B-G. Have you read his most recent, Up With the Sun?

Linda Darnell was a beautiful woman and was only 32 or 33 at the time.

She was 16 when she made her first film in 1939, r144.

Jazz musician Rufus Harley on TTTT ...

... on IGaS ...

porn, r145?

... and Rufus Harley on WML.

Budd Collyer and his crooked bow tie (not very crooked in that particular clip.)

Linda Darnell should have been awarded an Oscar for A Letter to 3 Wives. I'd like to think that the only reason she wasn't even nominated was because the role was so much in between Lead and Featured.

Sad to think of her tragic death in a fire just 8 years after this WML appearance.

The story I heard about her long ago was that she once asked a contestant "Are you a guinea?" The fellow who told me that said his Italian-American wife was thoroughly offended.

DL favorite John Payne was an exceptionally sharp and articulate panelist. He totally nailed the first mystery guest. Paynes questions were very thoughtful. He played to win.

Hi y'all

Was Kilgallen killed/did Kilgallen die because she was getting too close to the JFK assassination story (or stories) or just from the booze and pills? Or both?

R155 That's a subject of much discussion and several books. See the linked DL post.

She was from another time for much of her life- frozen in the 1950s. But she was nice, classy and groomed in her old fashioned manner to the teeth. I never would call her a beauty- at any age.

[quote]She was from another time for much of her life- frozen in the 1950s.

Not really, she kept pretty active and current with the arts in NYC.

I know her from the last scene in Six Degrees of Separation. They needed a dowager puss and they got one!

R155 Based on all the people who were witnesses to the JFK assassination or had additional information that did not meet the narrative of the Warren Commission were systematically eliminated within 3 years of 1963, it's very likely she was also killed.

There was a local guy who had a signed photo of Hart on his piano. She was the presiding muse.

It saddens me no end that we're so far from Dorothy Kilgallen's death/murder that we'll never know the truth of her untimely end. Or even get a great mini-series out of her fascinating life. Ryan Murphy could do a fabulous job with it if he hired all the right people and stayed out of the way.

I'd rather have a great mini-series about the William Desmond Taylor murder. That's the gift that just keeps on giving in terms of suspects and subplots. Hopefully the gay sex parts would be graphic!

Dorothy Kilgallen...movie star

Kitty is the only one that knew how to properly spit out the dog food the panelists were served. Because she was the epitome of class and grace. Love her.

She also handled Bill Cullen talking about the contestants' penises with grace and dignity.

^ crazy paste

Oh fuck it and just look for Bill Cullen, TTTT, and birds on Youtube

R163, have you read the book "Tinseltown" by William J Mann?

It's a true crime novel. I loved it, think his solution to who killed William Desmond Taylor a stretch, but his depiction of Hollywood in the at the time of the murder fascinating.

That Dotty - of all people!!! - was going to break the Kennedy assassination goes to show the utter lunacy of conspiracists. Another example of why I liken 1/6 conspiracists to their JFK brethren. The objective truth in both cases is so at utterly at war with their respective world views that they have irretrievably gone down deep rabbit holes.

^election deniers.

R170, Don’t sell Kilgallen short. She was a respected crime reporter first, a game show panelist second.

“Those who knew her work, including Ernest Hemingway, said that Dorothy Kilgallen was the best female reporter in the business, perhaps the best of either sex and one of the most powerful people in the country when her life suddenly ended on November 8, 1965.“

R170 It had to do with her interview with Jack Ruby and the expose she was about to release. All her research papers and the draft of her report went missing.

So, was Kilgallen's interview with Jack Ruby never published? Never found? That is....mysterious.

Dorothy Kilgallen died at her own hands … & she was not about to break the Kennedy case wide open. As no one has in the almost 58 years since she died.

R174, It is believed that her husband, Richard Kollmar, burned all the JFK assassination documents that Dorothy left behind.

Two years after her death, he married designer Anne Fogarty and four years later he died, an apparent suicide.

For R168, who's going through it today. 😏

That Dotty - of all people!!! - was going to break the Kennedy assassination goes to show the utter lunacy of conspiracists.

R170 Why wouldn't she? She was skeptical of the Warren Commission's conclusions and wrote several pieces about it, acc. to Wikipedia. "On February 23, 1964, she published an article in the New York Journal-American about a conversation she had with Jack Ruby, when he was at his defense table during a recess in his murder trial. She also obtained a copy of Ruby's June 7, 1964, testimony to the Warren Commission, which she published in August 1964 in three installments."

She also covered the Sam Sheppard murder trial.

By the way at the time the Catholic Church banned funeral masses for suicides, and she was given a funeral mass, her death being rules as probably accidental overdose.

Her husband also kicked their youngest son out of the house and completely disinherited him...

R179, Because he knew Johnnie Ray was Kerry’s biological father.

Looking at Kerry Kollmar today is like looking at Johnnie Ray.

I think that is the worst thing that a woman can do to a man, get pregnant by someone else and then lie about it.

R181, Having a baby with the housekeeper and then lying about it is a close second.

Hard to believe that Dorothy and Johnny could get it up for each other.

But seriously, I think I remember reading in the Lee Israel bio of Dorothy (which admittedly is half-assed) and other reports that Dorothy's and Johnny's relationship was strictly platonic. Passionate drinking buddies.

Sure, it was a terrible thing to do -but it sure wasn't the kid's fault! Dick Kollmar was the only father he ever knew, and yet he kicked him out of the house at 15. What a heartless bastard!

I have a feeling that Kerry knew more about Dick Kollmar's "proclivities" than Dick could tolerate.

Seriously, someone needs to do a mini-series about Dorothy's K's life and death! There is so much fascinating material to explore.

R156 Thanks for the link. I remembered Shaw's book but he was cray.

[quote] Seriously, someone needs to do a mini-series about Dorothy's K's life and death! There is so much fascinating material to explore.

R185 If any of the theories are correct that Dorothy knew too much about the government’s involvement in the JFK assassination, even if only indirectly via known Mafia members being allowed to work with the CIA, it’s possible no production company would touch it. Maybe that’s why there’s never been a series about Dorothy’s life. Even with the bar for corruption lowered drastically by Trump’s presidency, re-hashing the possibility that the government contributed to JFK’s death still seems unpalatable, even after Oliver Stone’s film “JFK.”

Once Dorothy became a celebrity on WML she pretty much gave up on being a real reporter. I fucking hate it when that Phylis Newman is on. I love Betty White, and she was a frequent sub on the panel shows, but she would stink up the place when she was on. Watch the WML episode with Judy Garland. Never saw the audience so wild as when she was on. She was drunk off her ass but it was still good. Other great episodes are Debbie Reynolds and Elizabeth Taylor as the mystery guests. Debbie is absolutely hysterical in her appearance.

[quote] Once Dorothy became a celebrity on WML she pretty much gave up on being a real reporter.

R188 Dorothy had many irons in the fire by the 1950s. Not only WML, but also daily morning radio program with her husband, among other things. However, she carefully picked several high-profile cases to report on in her column starting in the 1950s:

[quote] During the mid-50s, Kilgallen began accepting assignments from the city desk...Among them was Kilgallen's coverage of the 1954 trial of Sam Sheppard, who was accused of brutally murdering his wife Marilyn Sheppard in their Ohio home, and who steadfastly claimed innocence and was later released from prison. Kilgallen's stories of the trial appeared on the Journal's front page and were characterized not so much by the reporting of the events themselves, but by Kilgallen's reactions to the events.

[quote] Kilgallen also covered the trial of society surgeon Bernard Finch, who was accused of shooting his wife Barbara Finch while his mistress hid in a clump of bushes, and that of Dr. Stephen Ward, who was part of England's notorious John Profumo-Christine Keeler scandal.

She also reported on the Jack Ruby trial, although I think it was mostly written as innuendo, and she died before writing about the trial in detail.

It’s on the list, r143!

R189, Dorothy also had two high profile feuds in the 1950s, with Frank Sinatra and Jack Paar.

The scathing Sinatra profile she wrote greatly angered him and he attacked her regularly in his act.

Likewise, her attacks on Paar were harsh and he would in turn attack her on his nightly show.

This cleverly produced video explains the Paar feud.

Was Jack Paar actually supportive of Fidel Castro, r191, or anyone? Was Dorothy wrong about that?

R192, Prior to the Cuban Missle Crisis in 1962, yes he was.

^Missile

There was an awkward moment when a boxer(mystery guest) put Dorothy in her place.

[quote]Kitty Carlisle was authentically warm and charming in person, truly a lost art.

Most celebrities today are trashy whores, Kitty was of an era when "class" was important.

Did her hair ever move?

When Miss Arlene Francis throws a holiday party, she always has Vat 69 for her guests.

Boy do you have a crazy sponsor!

Barbara Cook looks happy!

There were many awkward moments with Dorothy and Mystery Guests. You can start with Arlene Dahl's and Julie London's appearances and go from there.

Sorry, not to link, I'm old and hopeless...errr.....helpless.

In that VAT69 ad, who is that ultra handsome dude behind Bea Lillie and Martin Gabel's heads? Can anyone read the caption?

Mr Harry Willard

Even though the goal was to stump the panel, I’m sure some celebrities were embarrassed NOT to be guessed as the mystery guest.

In an oral interview not long before he died in 1971, Bennett Cerf admitted that he sometimes had no idea who the mystery guest was even after they had been revealed.

^^^ Duh, "Willard" ^^^

Third time's the charm: Harry Millard

R201, Dorothy had an awkward moment with mystery guest Edward G. Robinson.

She basically called him cheap, for not donating enough to some charity she was involved with, given that he owned a priceless art collection.

R197 maybe she inspired this SCTV spoof hairspray commercial

Every Dlers dream is to have attended a party thrown by Miss Arlene Francis.

I wonder if Harry Millard was Larry Kert's date.

More about Harry Millard, ne Harry Millard Williams:

"Harry Williams Millard, motion-picture actor and producer, died Tuesday of cancer at New York Hospital. He was 41 years old and lived in Beverly Hills, Calif.

Mr. Millard's credits included roles on the Broadway productions of "Maybe Tuesday," which opened in 1958, and Lillian Hellman's "Toys in the Attic" (1961). He toured with the national company of "Advise and Consent."

*** He also ... appeared in numerous television shows, among them the "Kraft Television Theater," "The Defenders," "The F.B.I." and "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea."

*** He is survived by his parents, Mr. and Mrs. Earnest Duncan Williams of Lebanon, Pa., and two brothers, Earnest Duncan Williams Jr. and Jack Lyter Williams of Annville."

No one could identify Jerry Herman @ 3:18 on this 1964 episode.

Arlene was particularly embarrassed since they had not only met, but Jerry had played piano for her at an event where she sang.

[quote]When Miss Arlene Francis throws a holiday party, she always has Vat 69 for her guests.

Her guests included Barbara Cook, Bea Lillie and Elaine Stritch, who finds a way to pull focus even in a goddamned still photo.

[quote]Barbara Cook looks happy!

She was still drinking then.

And Arlene always wears Arpege…give me my Arpege…

Gay men have kids with women all the time. There are certainly numerous famous examples.

How do they do it, r216? How do they get it up?

R217 Probably the same way people get it up when they masturbate...

R217 Delivery by turkey baster after masturbating.

QE2 and her sister Margaret Rose, for example.

I just saw a To Tell The Truth episode where Otto Preminger was a guest, and Kitty said that she and Moss once stayed with him as a houseguest -for three months!

R217 I don’t know but I got here somehow.

Who doesn't love Kitty Carlisle Cunt?

Peggy Cass.

Damn, she looks Goth in that photo,

Peggy's Miss Hannigan...

She and Arlene Francis had a lot in common. Married to gay men and had children later in life. And I still don’t know what either one of them did.

R226, They had known each other since childhood.

Martin Gabel was gay??

R228, He and Arlene created one butt ugly child, Peter, who died in 2022.

I was responding to R226's assertion that Arlene Francis had married a gay man. First I'd heard of that...

Peter was not butt ugly. He was cute as a young man. As he grew older he strongly resembled his father.

[quote]She and Arlene Francis had a lot in common. Married to gay men and had children later in life. And I still don’t know what either one of them did.

They were both stars of the legitimate theater. Everybody knows that! Kitty Carlisle is the female lead in the Marx Brothers' "A Night at the Opera."

When Miss Arlene Francis has a party, she always has Vat 69.

A pity we don't live in sophisticated times anymore.

But give me my Arpege r232.

R226 Read .the thread - there have been many posts about Kitty’s singing career and movie/stage career.

Kitty could be a bit grand at times, while Arlene was much more down-to-earth and funny. I have no doubt that her parties were a lot more fun than Kitty's.

I'd never heard that Martin Gabel was gay, but he and Alene used to summer in Cherry Grove, and in the 1960s Arlene appeared as herself in a spoof of "What's My Line" at the Cherry Grove Playhouse.

You know Kitty would be performing a solo at her parties.

R26 Well, you know, she had a certain artificiality, didn't she? And the Manhattan "society" you're talking about was for the most part made up of a lot of ridiculous, brainless, grasping, social-climbing, backbiting poseurs. But you on revering them if it makes you feel good.

[quote] And I still don’t know what either one of them did.

R226 They were influencers on social media. As I recall, Arlene was on all platforms, but abandoned Facebook early on. Kitty preferred TikTok.

[quote] Ms. Carlisle was doing some sort of one-woman show that was a retrospective of her life in theatre.

So, a one act?

[quote] Ms. Carlisle was doing some sort of one-woman show that was a retrospective of her life in theatre.

Here ya go.

Didn't Kitty do an Only Fans? Or was that Betsy Palmer?

Dagmar, r241.

[quote] Arlene was much more down-to-earth and funny.

R235 Based on my viewing of 17 years of “What’s My Line?” shows, I think Arlene had the quickest wit of anyone on the show, including most of the major comedians that were often guest panelists, and except perhaps Steve Allen. Her quick puns and plays on words almost never failed to get laughs.

[quote] I'd never heard that Martin Gabel was gay.

Neither he, Bennett Cerf, nor John Charles Daly ping as gay to me, mostly because they were all sports mavens and knew stats at a level that would make any heterosexual man proud. I know that’s a stereotype, and anything’s possible (particularly bisexuality on the down-low), but to me they came off mostly as nerdy, preppy, cultured men who seemed to have true physical attractions to certain very pretty women contestants.

R243, Both Bennett Cerf and Martin Gabel were very close friends with Frank Sinatra, who I doubt would have gay friends.

R244 Thanks; I didn’t know that. It must have been quite awkward when Dorothy Kilgallen attacked Sinatra in her columns.

Speaking of Dorothy, I’m now 2 episodes before Dorothy’s death in my traversal of all the WML episodes on YouTube. Other than her somewhat nastier and nastier arguments with John Daly, she was in better shape starting in Sept 1965 than she was on certain shows in the late 50s/early 60s in which she was clearly under the influence. She’s also quite cheerful (for Dorothy, that is), and doesn’t seem perturbed because of what might happen to her for her ongoing investigation of the JFK assassination.

My two favorite moments from WML:

Dorothy's father.

A very young Frank Gifford on. Both women were so obviously taken by his extreme good looks. Arlene: "Half back, full back, quarter back, I don't care what they call you, you have a beautiful back."

R244, When in New York, Sinatra would often stay with Bennett and Phyllis Cerf at their NYC or Mt. Kisco residences. Frank was one of Bennett’s pallbearers in 1971.

Sinatra was also very fond of Martin Gabel, casting him in three of his films.

Bennett had a very hot and cold relationship with Kilgallen over the years of WML?, respecting her as a journalist, but not for her Voice of Broadway gossip column.

Dorothy was a void they just couldn't fill. The three regulars and a guest on the panel really hit the spot right. Everyone that they tried to make a replacement for Dorothy failed. Miserably.

R248, Barbara Feldon contacted WML? producer Gil Fates almost immediately after Dorothy’s death about being her replacement.

The only one who wasn't that bad was Meredith MacRae.

[quote]You know Kitty would be performing a solo at her parties.

She certainly did!

I was at a fundraiser cocktail party at Kitty's enormous, rambling East 64th Street co-op (I think it was also her 94th birthday) and she did indeed sing four numbers for the guests. I wish I remembered the set list, but I do recall it was one Jerome Kern, one Gershwin, one Lerner and Lowe and I think one Irving Berlin, who was a great friend of Kitty and Moss Hart.

R250, Phyllis Newman was so annoying and her blindfold was always too big for her head.

R250, She was on the syndicated version, beginning in 1968.

[quote]—Everyone called her "Mrs. Hart"

I woulda walked up to her, slapped her ass and said "Hey Kit-Kat, how they hanging?".

[quote] Dorothy was a void they just couldn't fill. The three regulars and a guest on the panel really hit the spot right. Everyone that they tried to make a replacement for Dorothy failed. Miserably.

R248 Yes, there was no one like Dorothy (before or after her). She had a mind like a steel trap and was determined to win the game. She was indeed well balanced by Arlene (who was also an excellent questioner but could laugh about the game), and Bennett, who wanted to win but was also there to be a foil for John Daly.

[quote] Phyllis Newman was so annoying, and her blindfold was always too big for her head.

R252 Her frequent giggly laughter annoyed me. She did the same thing on the Carson show and sang out of tune sometimes. Was she a beard for Adoph Green?

R256, Her best friend was Lauren Bacall. How she ever put up with that annoying giggle baffles me.

R255, Bennett Cerf heard Dorothy sobbing in her dressing room after the show ended one Sunday evening.

When he knocked and inquired if she were okay, she responded that she was upset over not guessing a single contestant’s occupation that night.

R257 Wow, that I would never have guessed. Well, a DOM needs a SUB.

She will have to do, r256.

R258 Dorothy struck out on plenty of shows during her 17-year run on WML, so unless she was crying on a lot of nights when no one heard her, my guess is that something else was also bothering Dorothy the night Bennett heard her. She really seemed to be a substance-induced wreck on some of the shows in the late 50s and early 60s.

From what I’ve read, the WML team often went out together after a show, and Dorothy often then went to another club after that, so I think most of the time things weren’t bad after a show.

Carson had Phyllis Newman on a lot and it was hard to discern how legit his putdowns of her were. Once he said he would be unable to make her cabaret performance because that was his bowling night.

According to Bennett Cerf, the rest of the cast had a cordial but cool relationship with Dorothy. That topic comes up at around 6:15 of the attached clip.

It was Ok then to have a cool but collegial relationship with a co-worker. You weren't expected to have a great relationship with everyone you worked with or dealt with. Just a polite one.

R262 I think Carson liked Phyllis because she would do her big long giggles at his jokes. She also talked a lot and could fill time by singing, both of which I think made it easier on Carson. I think it’s why he also liked Beverly Sills, Marilyn Horne, and Martina Arroyo as guests: they could sing classy opera numbers but yet they were funny conversationalists.

By the way, Carson once pulled a trick on Phyllis by quietly telling the audience that when she came out and sang her song they should not applaud at the end. She caught on very quickly that Johnny had put them up to it. And then she giggled.

[quote]Phyllis Newman was so annoying and her blindfold was always too big for her head.

I was watching some very old episodes of "To Tell the Truth" and was surprised at how annoying frequent panelist Polly Bergen was, because I had always liked her. She tried way too hard to make herself the center of attention. And, speaking of Johnny Carson, he was an occasional guest panelist on "To Tell the Truth" and was pretty insufferable. He acted as though he was too good to be there. He was often condescending to the panelists and sometimes openly made fun of them.

R266, That’s why I love the story of how Judy Garland drove her stiletto heel into the microphone wire at an afternoon party where Polly Bergen was scheduled to sing, sabotaging her performance.

Polly was then married to agent Freddie Fields, who handled numerous big names and Polly thought she was one of them.

One of the funniest WML moments. And with Bennett Cerf, in place of John Charles Daly, as the quizmaster!

^ Funny that Kaiser feels the need to answer whether he is Abraham Lincoln.