Russian military attacks Russian military

Latest.

[quote]BREAKING: Russia's FSB opens criminal case against Wagner founder Prigozhin due to this call of a armed mutiny - TASS

[quote]The police arrive at the office of PMC "Wagner Center" in St. Petersburg.

DRAMA!

More clicks for Murdoch. Great.

New message from Wagner chief.

[quote]Prigozhin: "All patriots of Russia, true patriots of the country who know history, and not fans of a weak government that betrayed the interests of the state, take to the streets, we will find weapons. This night we will resolve the issue of traitors and criminals who have dishonored Russia. Their names are Shoigu, Gerasimov."

Russians are a hoot.

The drama never ends.

It's Biden's fault!!!!!

Is Fox News for or against this?

And how can I blame Biden either way?

R3, WSJ had this before NYT.

Blame pinch - not Murdoch.

OH yeah!

Russsia's private army is fighting Russia's actual army. Here's how that's bad for Biden:

The Times is now on it

The Guardian

Could be the beginning of the end for Putin.

It seems pretty extraordinary, the fact that Putin is not speaking yet

Prigozhin has been careful not to attack Putin. He has, however, claimed that Russia had no basis for invading Ukraine and is lying about the scope of its losses. He claims (see R12) that the war is being fought for “the oligarch class.” He’s assuming that there is, in fact, a lot of resentment about the war and economic inequality in Russia—which is interesting because he’s presumably much better informed about this stuff than Western observers.

Wagner has had devastating losses due to Russian incompetence. 30,000 killed out of 50,000. Thanks Biden!

He wants to be the Tsar!

"Could be the beginning of the end for Putin."

If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on Putin coming out on top, and Prigozhin having a very unfortunate accident, like the brakes on his vehicle suddenly failing, or his service revolver accidentally going off while he was pointing it as his brain.

The Moscow Times: "The Kremlin said that President Vladimir Putin was aware of the 'unfolding situation' around Prigozhin and that 'all necessary measures' were being taken."

[quote]Prigozhin having a very unfortunate accident, like the brakes on his vehicle suddenly failing, or his service revolver accidentally going off while he was pointing it as his brain.

He needs to stay away from windows, that's for sure. And he should boil his own tea.

Putin needs to decide between Shoigu and Prigozhin. On the one hand, Putin can barely look at Shoigu because he's comically incompetent and he could blame the failed war on him before withdrawing the forces from Ukraine. On the other hand, he's also quite harmless while Prigozhin is a loudmouth and a troublemaker, so a lot more unpredictable that way.

Needless to say, Putin's rule is quite secure, regardless of what he decides in the end.

[quote]Russian military attacks Russian military

Sounds like a plan.

There is a charming Russian expression that comes to mind..."A toad fucking a snake"

[quote]A toad fucking a snake

Pics please.

Rah Rah! Prighozin!

Lover of Vlad Putin!

Fuck Putin, bring the bastard down.

Someone has a open window with his name on it.

Not like Ukraine would take advantage of this sit- oh wait.

[quote]Taking advantage of Prigozhin's provocation to disorganize the situation, the Kiev regime in the Bakhmutovsky tactical direction is concentrating units of the 35th Marine Brigade and the 36th Mechanized Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on the starting lines for offensive operations.

It's on, bitch.

Internet blocked nationwide in Russia.

Link?

[quote]Link?

Not on the Times

That isn't all of the internet. Only sources of news that Russia doesn't want people to access.

[quote]That isn't all of the internet. Only sources of news that Russia doesn't want people to access.

So anything that isn't pure state horseshit is blocked. Potayto potahto.

[quote]For those of you new to this media environment. The main sources of info are an army that lies about everything; a warlord who owns an infamous troll factory and lied about it for years; and the Kremlin. And Russia destroyed the media, so there aren't any good independent sources

R33 isn't that kind of like saying you can have any color you want as long as it's black.

Most Russians have VPNs now anyway. But they also mostly shrug their shoulders and don't really care if it doesn't directly affect them.

[quote]isn't that kind of like saying you can have any color you want as long as it's black.

No, because truly blocking 'the internet' would be remarkable and huge. This isn't that, it's targeted censorship that people can easily get around with a VPN if they want.

The enemy of my enemy is….my enemy.

I know this seems far-fetched but fire fetch doesn't seem to apply to this planet anymore as far as things that can go down. Is it possible this supposed feud between Wagner and the Russian military is just a ruse to get Ukraine to show their hand as it were.

[quote]Riot police and National Guard troops are reportedly on alert tonight in Moscow, amid Prigozhin's calls for an armed insurrection. This makes sense in Rostov, where Prigozhin has suggested he wants to strike Shoigu, but extra security in the capital shows how scared everyone is.

Jim Sciutto on Twitter:

State news TV channel Russia 24 interrupted a regular broadcast to read a message from the Russian Ministry of Defense, stating that the claims made by Wagner mercenary group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin "do not correspond to reality.”

“All messages and videos circulating on social media, attributed to Yevgeny Prigozhin, regarding alleged attacks by the Russian Defense Ministry on Wagner PMC rear camps, do not correspond to reality and are intended to misinform,” the announcer said.

Per MSNBC, Prigozhin says that he and the Wagner group have left Ukraine and are headed for Russia, apparently to mount a coup. However, there's no independent confirmation of this.

Prigozhin is not “Russian military.” Wagner is, or rather was, Putin’s private army, the way the Waffen-SS waa Hitler’s private army.

But it’s a Russian kind of Waffen-SS. What do I mean?

But in WWII, Himmler was fanatically devoted to Hitler and Nazism. The Waffen-SS were ruthless and fanatically obedient, some of the most formidable fighters on earth in the early 1940s.

Wagner is run by Putin’s former chef and is made up largely of PMC wannabes and, now, supplemented by the literal dregs of Russian society — criminals freed from prison to fight (and hopefully die) in Ukraine. It took a huge number of them almost a year to take one small town.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Russian Waffen-SS!

Coup coup coup!

By the way, this could be bad, if Prigozhin isn’t bullshitting.

If there’s a real civil war in Russia, that would be the worst thing to happen to global security since the Cuban missile crisis.

Maybe worse.

But of course Prigozhin is a buffoon, so there’s always that.

What's the xyz - should we be cheering them to fight each other or be terrified that someone even nuttier could end up with all of Russia's nuclear weapons.

A power vaccum with multiple factions vying for control could be almost as terrifying as the status quo in Russia.

He is bullshitting. No top generals or orgs are supporting him. He likely only has at most 10k men and doesn't have support like logistics. Nobody has any pictures or video of his men marching into Russia.

The whole thing seems like a strange failed attempt.

I read elsewhere that it's "really going down." DL seems less impressed and largely doesn't seem to think this will lead to anything.

Is not my problem.

You have iPhone 14 case in Svarovski crystal? Must be pink.

A Russian political analyst says that this is the end of the Wagner Group, but that the elite of Russia will hold this against Putin, because he failed to act earlier.

It’s all part of a mess of oligarch corruption in the entire Russian system that has made their military an organizational mess. It’s like hyenas attacking each other while they attack a water buffalo. The war has become the undoing of the Russian govt, economy and infrastructure, not to mention old fashion immoral invasion. In this case the invasion is laying open the whole rotten system and it’s dictator..

Real or not, it makes Putin look ridiculous and WEAK.

If his military kills Prigozhin's guys, then that will be less shitheads killing Ukrainians and less bullets and weapons with which to kill Ukrainians.

Maybe Wagner can even take out a few useful assholes on their way out.

Bitch, it's on!

Putin's $ check to Wagner bounced or someone else made Wagner a better $ offer

One of those times where everyone involved in s a total asshole so you're ok if they blow themselves to pieces.

My friend's father works for Wagner. Today he was called to a meeting. He returned late, without explaining. He told us: get our things, go to the shop, buy food for two weeks. Now we are going somewhere far out of town. I don't know what's going on, but I think it's happening...

Lol. Enjoy the psyops.

"There are good people on both sides."

Exactly something a psychopath like Donald would say, R58.

R59 Thank you. Want to buy some EFTs? For you, cheap.

You’ll have to scroll down to the second picture to see it, but here is a photograph of the Wagner Group’s “tech center” in St. Petersburg. Tell me this doesn’t belong in a Bond movie.

Nowhere for Trump to flee!

"Wagner forces have surrounded the headquarters of the Russian Southern Military district in Rostov.

It is really happening…"

[quote]One of those times where everyone involved in s a total asshole so you're ok if they blow themselves to pieces.

As long as they don’t blow up the rest of us in the process.

"It looks like that the local authorities in Rostov have set up barricades made up by busses, but the troops, which are presumably Wagner units, simply bypass them by going over the sidewalk and the lawns nearby, while Omon units just look at them.

I think Wagner is now taking over of Rostov.

Source: Nexta"

Let's hope this is the beginning of the end for Putin. But whoever replaces him could be much worse.

It's the Russian people who have to deal with this now. It's time for a complete systems overthrow.

They'll have to put down the drugs and the liquor and stop raping folks for long enough to get a non-pyschopath in there, R66.

I'm not confident they can do it.

"The governor of the Rostov region asked residents to stay at home

"The current situation requires maximum concentration of all forces to maintain order. Law enforcement agencies are doing everything necessary to ensure the safety of the region's residents. I ask everyone to remain calm and not to leave home unnecessarily," governor Golubev wrote in his Telegram channel."

"Exits from Rostov-on-Don are blocked by military trucks."

It doesn't sound like there is much resistance at all from the local security forces. Apathy, incompetence, or tacit support?

Re: R70:

"Yevgeni #Prigozhin: "We are now entering #Rostov. The units of the Ministry of Defense, or rather the conscripts who were thrown to block our way, have retreated to the sides. We do not kill children, children are killed by #Shoigu, who throws untrained soldiers, including conscripts, into the war. We only fight with professionals.""

As per AP:

"Yevgeny Prigozhin says his forces have driven into the Russian city of Rostov, facing no resistance. He's calling for an armed rebellion aimed at ousting Russia’s defense minister."

Savvy Genius!

6 hours ago

"Russia in meltdown? Shares of big companies are tumbling"

4 hours ago

"Russia has even interrupted national TV programmes to broadcast the news of #Prigozhin's call to arms.

#RussiaCivilWar"

Wow.

I am popping the popcorn, looking for some butter topping, and a good vantage point seat.

As FOX News is desperately and cravenly ignoring this situation because it doesn't play into their bullshit narrative...

"I can tell you that President Biden has indeed been briefed on this unfolding situation in Russia…”

Rubes.

Its a very medieval justification for rebellion you don't really see much of anymore. "No, no. we're not rebelling against Tsar Vladimir. Just those who have given him the bad advice that's led us to this".

RUSSIA IS DOING THIS AS A DISTRACTION FROM HUNTER BIDEN!

"BREAKING

"We cannot be destroyed. We have goals, we are all ready to die, all 25 thousand, and after that another 25 thousand. Because we are dying for the Russian people, who must be freed from those people who are beating the civilian population" - Prigozhin"

If Prigozhin’s forces are really are in Russia, he doesn’t need a huge army. He has Russia’s cities for cover. What can Putin do, bomb Rostov? That seems extreme even for him.

"PMC "Wagner" was seized in Rostov:

— the headquarters of UVO; — police department; — the building of the Ministry of Internal Affairs; — Federal Security Service; — Rostov administration."

Sorry, R83's link ought to be:

"PMC "Wagner" was seized in Rostov:

— the headquarters of UVO; — police department; — the building of the Ministry of Internal Affairs; — Federal Security Service; — Rostov administration."

"The seizure of the SMD HQ and the potential consolidation of control over bases in the area has taken the insurrection into very dangerous territory. The SMD/ Operational Command South has slices of every single asset in Russia's arsenal including strategic assets."

"The question of why Prigozhin head to Rostov rather than Moscow is answered by the storming of the SMD HQ. It it the most strategic target in the South of Russia if you’re targeting the Ministry of Defense. Now that Prigozhin has the HQ does he consolidate or move on."

Prigozhin has accomplished this objective:

"Rostov houses the command of the Southern Military District and the Operational Headquarters for the war in Ukraine. It’s also one of Russia most important logistical hubs for the war. Wagner could get it hands on enormous stockpiles."

I'm loving this! The schadenfreude! Russia needs another hardcore revolution right away.

They should deal with Putin and his conies the same way they dealt with the Romanov family in 1918.

Putin must be shitting his arsehole out. 🍿

If only Tucker Carlson were still around to give us the Kremlin’s point of view.

I think we all know what it is R89:

> Russia good, unfailingly honest and just society. A beacon for humanity. Putin a saint.

> USA = bad, evil wokesters and tranny loving commies.

Carlson would also encourage nuclear war. "It's the only way to be sure"...

[quote]If only Tucker Carlson were still around to give us the Kremlin’s point of view.

Never fear, darling, we still have Miss Greenwald.

She had tonight's program all set (HUNTER BIDEN'S LAPTOP FROM HELL) but certainly will be pivoting to her god Putin tomorrow.

r87 I presume he plans to use control of that to try and force Putin to give him what he wants? Rostov is 1000km from Moscow according to Google and he doesn't have an air force so barring the entire Russian military throwing its hands up and mutinying (admittedly a possibility given how the last years gone) I can't imagine he's mad enough to try and start an actual civil war. But he's pretty much taken control of the war in Ukraine away from the Russian government while he holds Rostov.

Remember also that Prigozhin is extremely popular in Russia. He's not just somebody that the Kremlin can murder and he's forgotten.

I wish the similar thing happens to China next

"Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the former oil tycoon who now aspires to be the Heart of Free Russia, urges his supporters to “help people hear Prigozhin’s message,” reasoning that the warlord’s insurrection weakens Putin’s reputation."

Savvy Genius!

"The Moscow Stock Exchange is collapsing. Will be an interesting Monday morning open. Probably more likely it won't open however."

Jeeze. Looking at some of the videos on Twitter of tanks and militia surrounding Russian military buildings on Russian soil - this shit is serious. Who else is quite surprised by all of this?

[quote]Let's hope this is the beginning of the end for Putin. But whoever replaces him could be much worse.

Please enlighten us how someone who replaces Putin could possible be "worse". SERIOUSLY.

"A number of units of the Ministry of Defense that participated in the war are beginning to come under the command of Wagner. Entire corps. Shoigu and Gerasimov's people are being removed," RosSMI"

"Part of the units of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine came under the command of Prigozhin" - Russian Voenkors"

Ukrainian Twitter, r99.

[quote] Please enlighten us how someone who replaces Putin could possible be "worse". SERIOUSLY.

You’ll eat those words is the Zed radicals take over.

^^^ if

"Half the Republicans in Congress are panicking at the events in Moscow because their paychecks could stop tomorrow."

Reports that Russian presidential helicopters were seen leaving Moscow last night.

R92, there have been reports that Wagner troops are in Veronezh, which is halfway between Rostov and Moscow.

If Prigozhin controls the military (and it seems the military force is going along with him) Putin has nothing but his most loyal guard, and that won't be enough.

Putin deserves this for essentially making his Ukraine invasion force not a "military body" but just "bodies" thrown into fighting.

I hope the people start rising up as well as the military against him.

So many Russian political and military experts on the DataLounge I love it!

Anonymous gay boards are how we know what is REALLY going on in the war torn ex-USSR states.

Keep up the good work!

Vova's fine, he sends his love!

Sorry Defacto at r107, are we saying bad things about your beloved Vlad? 😢

No! You know so much, share your information and perspective, r109!

Imagine if Blackwater took over San Diego. This is like that. And also what MAGAladonians were hoping for would happen on J6.

There, there R107. There, there dear.

Thoughts? It does seem vaguely plausible, and its the only reason I can see why dear leader hasn't at least spoken on tv against the coup yet.

Already am, Defactard at r107! Back in 2022 you were all over DL claiming Ukraine would fall in a week. So when you criticize discussion of this civil war, we know where you’re coming from.

"BREAKING

Footage of the arrival of the "Wagner" PMC at the headquarters of Russian Ministry of Defense.

Prigozhin puts forward the conditions that he needs Shoigu and the Chief of the General Staff, otherwise he will continue to blockade Rostov and go to Moscow."

r113 absolutely not, that makes no sense. Putin can simply pick up the phone and fire them, you know? Or arrange a convenient heart attack/accident. There is nothing to be gained for Putin to look weak and chaotic like this.

Another Ukraine Twitter, r115

Is it Wagner as in Robert or Richard?

R114 wait what?

What did I claim?

Who claimed this?

As per Retired General Mark Hertling:

"It’s a military maxim that during war a nation shouldn’t open a second front unless they have an overwhelming advantage. It’s a Hertling maxim that a nation should NEVER open a second front on their own people while still contesting the 1st front."

R113, a part of me does wonder if this is just a ploy for Putin to save face.: "I didn't lose the war in Ukraine. I had to withdraw my troops to quell a rebellion."

More from ret. General Hertling:

"If there are Russian military and security vehicles starting to “lager” (I.e. military equipment preparing for action) in Red Square at 0330 hrs, we in the military call that an “indicator” that things aren’t going well in the Kremlin."

Why hasn’t Putin appeared on TV? Is he dead?

[quote]a part of me does wonder if this is just a ploy for Putin to save face.: "I didn't lose the war in Ukraine. I had to withdraw my troops to quell a rebellion."

But Prigozhin doesn't want to withdraw from Ukraine - this makes no sense either. If anything, Prigozhin is more hardline on fighting Ukraine.

It's hilarious that anyone here claims to know what the fuck is going on.

We've been wrong about before, and right before, but why do you care, R107? It's not like military leaders are holding they're breath, basing decisions on what DL is positing. It's just discussion and speculation.

Putin is apparently hiding out in a submersible on the ocean floor but all contact has been lost!

[quote]But Prigozhin doesn't want to withdraw from Ukraine

He doesn't want to, but he [italic]has[/italic] to unless he signs a contract with the Ministry of Defense, which he refuses to do.

We wish the Terrorist Federation a very pleasant Civil War,

[quote]Please enlighten us how someone who replaces Putin could possible be "worse". SERIOUSLY.

SERIOUSLY? All of them are terrible but there may be much worse than Putin waiting in the wings. For a start - Prigozhin seems deeply unstable and out of control. He's always ready to turn on a dime.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck what they do as long as they withdraw from Ukraine.

R129, lol. One wonders if Putin's embalmed corpse will soon be on display in a mausoleum?

So if this ends the war in Ukraine, does that mean that the west will stop sending them aid and taking in refugees, or will it still be too unstable to withdraw support?

Or buried in the forest like they did to the Romanov family R131.

[quote]So if this ends the war in Ukraine

How? Prigozhin wants to carry on trying to invade Ukraine.

Even if the Russian invasion stops today, it's going to take decades to rebuild Ukraine R132. So the answer is no. The support must go on.

Has Swan Lake started being televised on Russian air waves yet?

R126 - I'm invested in this conflict, as many are, on both sides. I agree with you, and acknowledge I got too peevish.

[quote] A huge Wagner / renegade Russian army convoy is in Voronezh oblast and on the way Moscow. I counted no less than 72 vehicles and the camera was several times not pointing at the road. Could be 100 or more.

The minivans in-between the troop carriers really makes this hilarious.

No doubt stolen from Ukrainians.

Is this like Boris vs. Natasha?

Putin to address the nation in 15 minutes.

[quote]Is this like Boris vs. Natasha?

I've been wondering who controls Prigozhin's troll farm now in light of this. The poor things must be confused.

[quote] I read elsewhere that it's "really going down." DL seems less impressed and largely doesn't seem to think this will lead to anything.

Who knows more about Russian military objectives than the caftan wearing, basement dwelling, bon-bon eating contributors to DL?

r142 When in doubt, just go for another trans thread, is my personal motto!

Homosexual intuition often trumps conventional wisdom, r143.

We know R144.

CNN link, Putin speaking soon.

But how could this be happening? Russians are so convinced that they're #1! Number one global superpower, number one military power.

And instead they're getting their asses kicked in front of the whole world?

Remain calm. All is well!

This absolutely couldn't happen to a nicer nation of cunts.

But I thought the cucked woke rainbow beta West was the one who supposed to be falling apart?!

R151, surely Russia's 'Best Friend Foreva!', China, is all set and ready to help them out of this pickle.

Right?

Let's be a Moscow Clinique Counter getting bombed by the Wagner Group!

Wonderful. The vermin is turning on their own.

What's the Russian word for schadenfreude?

If only one of the Wagner tanks would run you over and then back up to make sure eh Dutchie? The world would be a much better place.

Why isn't the Russian Air Force driving them back?

r154 I was just about to say that, speaking of vermin, you'll trigger Greg with your appearance. And right on cue, he's already here!

R157, the Russian Air Force:

r157 Same reason waterbombing from planes wasn't used when putting out the fires of Notre Dame, even though Trump suggested it and some DLers were assuring me he was right in that instance – you can easily destroy a city for no reason. They'll wait until they're on a move, out in the open, away from important infrastructure.

Putin is running later to his address, still finalising the purge list.

[quote]Why isn't the Russian Air Force driving them back?

They're probably a bit surprised and not sure what to do yet? It's 9.43 am in Moscow.

All those Qunts must be feeling horrible right now. A coup is taking place, but in the wrong fucking country!

Putin 44 minutes late for his speech.

[quote]Putin is running later to his address, still finalising the purge list.

Can someone please translate this for us?

Get a new joke R165. All the rest of us can understand it.

[quote] Russian military attacks Russian military

I guess our spooks were playing 20-dimensional chess to their 5-dimensions.

r165 All they did was accidently press r. Its "Putin is running late to his address, still finalizing the purge list"

r165 Dear Lord, I added one letter by mistake and didn't want to clutter up the thread with a correction. Hope you'll survive this harrowing ordeal, your personal 9/11, thoughts and prayers!

Wagner PMC Has Reportedly Taken Control of All Russian Military Facilities in Voronezh, Just Six Hours’ Drive (515km) From Moscow

Voronezh is more than halfway to Moscow from Rostov - which Prigozhin took like less than 2 hrs ago, I think

"Putin's address to the nation has been delayed indefinitely".

Sp, with all their spy satellites and other resources, the Air Force couldn't find anywhere in the 600lmsbetween Rostov and Voronezh to thwart the progress of the mercenary army?

The Russian army on Saturday urged Wagner fighters to abandon the group’s leader, saying it would "guarantee the safety" of Wagner mercenaries who stop rebelling against Moscow's military leadership.

"We are appealing to the fighters of assault squads of PMC Wagner. You were deceived into (Wagner chief's Yevgeny) Prigozhin's criminal venture and participation in an armed rebellion," the army said in a statement posted on Telegram. It called on the fighters to ask for help to return to "places of permanent deployment."

"We ask you to show reason and get in touch with representatives of Russia's defence ministry or law enforcement. We guarantee safety for all."

[quote] The Russian army on Saturday urged Wagner fighters to abandon the group’s leader, saying it would "guarantee the safety"

Who the fuck trusts what Russians have to "guarantee?"

Translation of Putin's address just now (BBC)

The GreyZone claims Russian soldiers laid down the arms at the Bugaevka border crossing in the Voronezh Oblast.

Well! I guess that guy I linked to on Twitter was making shit up then...

[quote]Putin is running later to his address, still finalising the purge list.

R166, R168, and R169 - You are all illiterate TWATS. "Running later" and "Still finalising" in the same sentence = TOTAL ILLITERACY; one error can be overlooked, but two in the same sentence = ENGLISH IS NOT YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE.

Go back to 7th grade and dry up & blow away.

The joke in Russia goes like this:

2 years ago, Russia had 2nd greatest army in the world.

1 year ago, Russia had 2nd greatest army in Ukraine.

Now Russia has 2nd greatest army in Russia.

FFS. Slap yourself viciously R179. You're a complete dick.

Poor Russia. They keep trying to fuck with "the west" and look what keeps happening to them instead. :(

Richly deserved R182.

Seth Abramson on Twitter

Prigozhin couldn’t possibly have taken Putin’s address as indicating anything *other* than that his life is forfeit if he—or any who follow him—are captured. And Putin said the Russian military is moving on Rostov. So what choice does Prigozhin even *have* anymore, besides war?

R184 = English is not his first language, OR . . . he is drunk off his ass.

Dear Lord in Heaven!

Wagner finally breaks with Putin

Igor Sushko (Twitter) Russian soldiers surrendered en masse to Wagner PMC in Voronezh. Wagner now controls both Rostov (population 1.1 million) and Voronezh (also population 1.1 million). Wagner is now approaching Krasnodar (1 million) and Volgograd (950k) without any resistance.

Reported that #Russian aviation strikes the M-4 highway, along which the fighters of the #WagnerGroup are moving towards #Moscow. No proofs yet.

Is Tara Reid dead yet?!

LMAO

This is all so hilarious. Either way, Putin is FUCKED. He empowered Prig-whatever because the Russian military couldn’t fight the war in Ukraine on its own. Now, members of the Wagner Group will feel threatened and Russia now finds itself staring down the barrel of a civil war.

You Russian motherfuckers thought you could spend the next year trolling websites with pro-Putin propaganda…I’m confiden DL will see a noticeable decline in that shot now that Boris, Svetlana, et al have to figure out how to escape Moscow.

Tom Nichols:

For now, with Wagner out of the picture—or perhaps even in open revolt against Russian regular forces—the Ukrainians have caught a break. But there are still a lot of bad things that can happen in Moscow in the next few days, or even hours. As the political scientist and Eurasia Group president, Ian Bremmer, noted tonight: “Putin’s never looked weaker than right now, in the Ukraine war, and at home, which is welcome—and extremely dangerous.”

Can't they just fight it out in Call of Duty like civilized people?

Fingers crossed R192. We need some good news.

Now go after every single traitor in the Trump family and US Congress that is on Putin’s payroll, kompromat list, or both.

"The moment of the explosion on the highway near #Voronezh."

Voronezh is mentioned in R189

"Mercenaries from PMC "Wagner" mine the streets of #Rostov"

From Zelenskyy:

"Everyone who chooses the path of evil destroys himself. Who sends columns of troops to destroy the lives of another country and cannot stop them from fleeing and betraying when life resists. Who terrorizes with missiles, and when they are shot down, humiliates himself to receive Shahed drones. Who despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war, in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow region from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares by the year 1917, although he is able to result in nothing else but this. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness. And the longer Russia keeps its troops and mercenaries on our land, the more chaos, pain, and problems it will have for itself later. It is also obvious. Ukraine is able to protect Europe from the spread of Russian evil and chaos.

We keep our resilience, unity and strength.

All our commanders, all our soldiers know what to do. Glory to Ukraine!"

"If this is confirmed, then Putin will be getting very anxious indeed. Should Wagner forces capture city of Voronezh, they'll control a major transport hub to the already captured city of Rostov-on-Don and Moscow. So let's break out the 🍿 & 🍻 say. #RussiaIsCollapsing"

I see a garage door in Putin's future. Or maybe Prigozhin's.

"“Prigozhin is not a step up from Putin – he’s just another gangster.”

Gen. .@mccaffreyr3 weighs in on the long-brewing conflict between Russia’s military leadership and the head of the Wagner Group."

"Prigozhin spent a decade behind bars. Armed robbery. Burglary. Fraud. Choked out a woman and stole her earrings and boots. Executed a deserter with a sledgehammer. He is a corrupt and dangerous actor. Putin criminal enterprise perhaps coming apart."

"Wagner mercenary in Voronezh region says they've shot down 3 helicopters and one transport plane and now they're moving directly on to Moscow. He asks that the Russian military not interfere. This is a professional, not some convict."

Both sides are white, so it's a win-win.

Putin is going to find out how toothless his held close generals are. Give them more medals!

Russians "too drunk to fight"? HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE, tankies?

"1/14 Russia's security forces are reported to be in disarray following the attempted mutiny by the Wagner Group. It seems to have been perfectly timed for a moment – Friday night – when many personnel were too drunk to respond quickly, while others are refusing to fight Wagner."

"2/14 The VChK-OGPU Telegram channel reports what its sources are saying is the situation within various security organisations. At the FSB and Ministry of Internal Affairs, "Everyone is up and running, urgently reporting in. Now all the offices are like one big after-party.""

"3/14 80 per cent of the staff smell of booze. Some of them can barely stand on their feet. Can't arm 'em, can't send 'em anywhere. Friday night's the perfect time to start something like this. Everybody's standing around, waiting for something. No introductions.""

"4/14

A couple of hours more and the conflicts among themselves will start when [the alcohol] starts to wear off."

Prigozhin is horrid. But he is telling the truth about the invasion of Ukraine: it was done on the pretext of a lie.

"5/14

Unwillingness to fight Wagner appears to be a common theme. "There is real panic in Rostov, especially among the police. There is more than a 40 percent shortfall in personnel among those called up in connection with Operation Fortress" (to defend security installations)."

"6/14

Wagner forces were able to cross the border from Ukraine without opposition, despite orders not to let them through. "Both the border service of the FSB and the Interior Ministry received instructions to stop the Wagner PMC. No one is complying, as it is not realistic.""

Okay, so if Prigozhin is saying the invasion of Ukraine was based on a lie, where does that leave his pretext that he wants the war prosecuted effectively?

"7/14

Most ominously for the Kremlin, elements of the security forces appear to be actively siding with Wagner or refusing to act against it."

"8/14

The defence ministry has lost control over a number of units and formations of the South Eastern Military District, it will not be possible to organise defence by the Rosgvardia [Russian National Guard] and the FSB. Local leaders are extremely careful in their statements".

"9/14

Attempts to counter Prigozhin are only going through the FSB and the National Guard. The Ministry of Defence has simply withdrawn, junior officers either refuse to follow orders or directly support Wagner."

Shoot them both and let God sort them out.

"10/14

And Shoigu and the [MOD leadership] team just hid and completely lost touch with reality. The fear is obviously serious."

Wagner is reported to be directly taking control of some South Eastern Military District units."

"11/14

A number of units of the Ministry of Defence that participated in the war are beginning to come under the command of Wagner. Entire corps. Shoigu and Gerasimov's people are being removed.""

"12/14

General Gerasimov himself has not been seen in public since the mutiny began. According to Wagner channels, he was in Rostov when it fell to Wagner forces.

"13/14

He is said to have "escaped from the Rostov [military] headquarters along with people loyal to him” and “is holed up in a civilian apartment with his friends in Rostov.”"

[quote]Gerasimov Dead or too drunk to walk?

In Russia, the two are not mutually exclusive.

The last tweet (14/14) are his sources.

The Russian invasion of Russia is going way better than the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Putin may finally be toppled by an ex-hot dog salesman.

This is utterly insane. I hope, if the regime changes, they’ll have less time to pump their divisive propaganda into US elections. Not that the wouldn’t carry on, but they’ll shave a lot on their plate.

The=they Shave=have

[quote]they’ll shave a lot on their plate

Pics please.

"The rebellion of Wagner forces, led by Yevgeny Prigozhin, is the final confirmation of how catastrophically wrong the war in Ukraine has gone for Putin. Even if the Russian leader prevails in the immediate battle against Wagner, it is hard to believe that Putin can ultimately survive this kind of humiliation. His prestige, his power, even his life, are now on the line.

The historic irony is that Putin’s own actions have brought about the thing he fears most: an insurrection that threatens both the Russian state and his own personal power.

Putin’s fear of a “colour revolution” in Russia dates back almost 20 years. Fittingly, its origins lie in Ukraine. The Orange revolution of 2004 — a popular, democratic uprising against a rigged election in Ukraine — sparked a paranoia in the Russian president that has steadily intensified over the years.

Ever since, Putin has been haunted by two linked fears. First, that Ukraine would slip irrevocably from Russia’s grasp. Second, that a successful pro-democracy uprising in Kyiv would be a dry run for the same thing in Moscow.

His decision to invade Ukraine in 2022 was an effort to finally snuff out both dangers — by installing a pro-Russian, authoritarian government in Kyiv.

As a former intelligence operative and conspiracy theorist, Putin was convinced that the origins of any “colour revolution” — whether in Ukraine or Russia — would lie in Washington. His refusal to believe that Ukrainians might have agency or power led to his fatal underestimation of the strength of the country’s resistance to a Russian invasion.

As well as underestimating Ukrainian strength, Putin — drunk on the mythology of the Red Army of the 1940s — fatally overestimated Russia’s own military power. The failure of the Russian army opened the door for the Wagner group to enter the war. This gave Prigozhin his own power base and propaganda platform and ultimately allowed him to turn on the Russian state."

Putin should read more history - the proper stuff, not pandering nationalist stuff. Overmighty generals are a thing. See Wallenstein in the Thirty Years War, a semi-private agent who seemed to threaten the Habsburg emperor , or at least so his princes and other generals thought. The emperor struck first and had Wallenstein assassinated, with the proverbial ingratitude of the dynasty to its servants and supporters ('the thanks of the House of Austria').

New official Russian Civil War thread here

And the new thread is completely unnecessary, and all about R232.

It's exactly the same subject as this one. Annoying.

Prigozhin' was quoted as sawing Rostov Russia's fourth largest city was defended by teenage conscripts. "We are no going to fight children."

Russian Army should go back to doing what it does best:

DL Fave Adam Kinzinger serves the tea on America's Putin-apologists:

Good morning to everyone except those who thought Russia was a stable, strong country with which to model ourselves after. I’m thinking like @HawleyMO and @TuckerCarlson and of course Trump.

Many of us knew it would fall apart. Just a bit earlier than most expected.

CNN has trotted out Wolf Blitzer on a Saturday morning to cover this. Shit must be getting serious 🙄

Russia is about to see this on a loop

R156 are you pro Russia?

Are these boys safe?

Bump for original thread

DL Thread Attacks DL Thread

Putin looks shaken and exhausted in his video.

He knows full well that this might not be the end for him, but it’s the beginning of the end. A dictator cannot seem to be out of control.

Every time I see Wagner's name, my mind goes here:

The funny thing about this is, Prigozhin was incredibly useful to Putin — until he wasn’t.

He would go to social media and rail against Russia’s military establishment, and this was a fantastic way to deflect criticism from Russia’s shambolic invasion of Ukraine away from Putin.

But then it went off the rails ….

from the Guardian: "There have been numerous reports that Putin’s presidential plane took off from Moscow Vnukovo Airport at 2:16PM Moscow time (12:16PM BST) and then headed north-west.

According to data from the FlightRadar tracking website, the plane reached the Tver area - about 180km from Moscow and where Putin has a residence – before disappearing from the system.

It has not been possible to confirm whether Putin was on the plane and Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov has told news agency TASS the president is “working in the Kremlin”.

Meanwhile, Iranian state media quoted foreign ministry spokesperson Nasser Kanaani on Saturday as saying Iran supports the rule of law in the Russian Federation and considers the latest developments there an internal Russian matter."

If Putin's cheese is vacating the cracker, let's hope if he commands "Unscramble the nuke codes!", whoever is in immediate command of them pretends to obey.

Of course, Dear Leader *wink*, *wink*

“We are little-by-little running out of popcorn,” jokes Yuriy Sak, an adviser to Ukraine's defence minister.

Putin going to Tver or St Petersburg I can vaguely understand. Lukashenko immediately legging it to Turkey when nothings even happened yet in Belarus is hilarious he must be scared of his own shadow.

r249 The popcorn thing is supposed to be OUR thing! The Storm™ is supposed to land HERE, not there!

A Russian on telegram, roughly translated:

“We are little-by-little running out of popcorn,” jokes Yuriy Sak, an adviser to Ukraine's defence minister.

Wagner has speed, it's moving through unsecured areas, our generals are unable to respond:

[quote]The most basic and most powerful weapon that Wagner has is speed.

[quote]While our fathers-commanders decide where to strike, the column is already a hundred kilometers to the north, demolishing ridiculous cars with sand and other keeper tapes.

[quote]There are no mines on the roads, bridges are open, no orders have been brought to a bunch of units at all, and so on. It is clear that in a couple of days the commanders will tighten up, but Wagner will not wait for this moment. The inertia of our generals, of course, was taken into account by Wagner in their plan.

[quote]And yes, I keep forgetting to say. If you think that I am for one of the parties, you are mistaken. I know perfectly well that both sides are absolutely matched for each other. Bellends on both sides. And they equally give a fuck about our problems. I am for Russia, and only for it.

Ignore the second paragraph, relic of an old copy. ;)

/ Russia's security forces are reported to be in disarray following the attempted mutiny by the Wagner Group. It seems to have been perfectly timed for a moment – Friday night – when many personnel were too drunk to respond quickly, while others are refusing to fight Wagner.

Lukashenko is a comic-opera tinpot dictator. It’s no surprise he hides under the bed whenever he hears a noise.

What’s interesting is that a so-called NATO country is the first place he thinks of to flee to.

By the way, the Russian blogger says this:

[quote]demolishing ridiculous cars with sand

Because the Russians are trying to block the highway with dump trucks filled with sand.

The tanks just push them out of the way.

The Russians are doing this because they don’t have military forces to stop Prigozhin.

Not that I'm picking a side here but if pressed, I don't know who I'd choose. Putin is just the worst and has given us Trump, Brexit, and the war in Georgia and Ukraine. But Wagner has committed so many atrocities in Ukraine, Syria, and in various African countries, plus his influence in Africa is slowly spreading thanks to the French pulling out.

They both need to go, obviously. But then I think of the people surrounding Putin – Medvedev, Mishustin – and it just makes me shiver because I realise Putin is the moderate one.

Wagner is in many ways emblematic of the psychopathic Zed extremists is Russia. They have called for the immediate nuking of the USA because we are helping Ukraine. They want Poland invaded yesterday.

I forgot to mention they urge genocide in Ukraine.

I guess best case is both sides sustain massive numbers of casualties and Putin is shown to be the loser he is, then?

Oh great, something new to worry about.

Putin has a hot ass, but might not live forever.

Break on through to the other side

Will the people around Putin defend him to the death?

If they don't, he'll kill them r264.

It's already been pointed out, but I can't get over just how medieval this all is – a mercenary group marching on the capital. Just goes to show how backwards that shithole really is. And the cons everywhere are trying to present it as an anti-woke utopia, get fucked.

Feel very badly for the panicked people in Rostov, who are afraid of a battle in their city and are desperately trying to get out.

r264 They will, he takes *really* good care of those closest to him and their families, and has been grooming them to be the loyal lapdogs they are for decades at this point.

r264: "Will the people around Putin defend him to the death?"

Will Putin remove himself from the people around him?

And Tara Reade defected to Russia 😂

Poor Rostovites! They look at Bakhmut and foresee their own fate.

That’s the cause of all this, r270

Has Dump commented yet?

I remember the brutality with which Putin persecuted the Chechens in the Second Chechen War.

The Chechen leadership long ago sided with Putin. So this is not surprising.

But it's striking that Chechens who were fucked by Putin are defending him against Wagner.

Rats!

Oh my, what a turn of events . A civil war in Russia in the middle of war.

Didn't see that coming?

[quote]Has Dump commented yet?

Yes, he said

CONGRESS PLEASE PLEASE GET ME OUT OF THESE CRIMINAL CHARGES IM BEGGING HERE

I would not be surprised to learn the US and Western intelligence had a hand in this.

Clown car vs clown car — WHO WILL WIN???

Complete nonsense, tankie idiot at r278

The tankie at r278 has chimed in. Because there's no way the Russian society and political system both are rotten to the core, right?

The US has a history of this kind of activity

r276 Yeah me neither

r274 I had completely forgotten about the Chechen war earlier in the thread when I was listing the wars Putin was responsible for. Yeah, the way he just levelled Grozny and then paid Kadyrov to murder his own people was something else.

So many garbage people in the world today. It IS medieval .

I'm sure that Putin is going to try to sell a rebellion by his own forces as a U.S. intelligence operation, but that would mean he'd been faked out by the U.S., and that would be embarrassing.

The Wagner group has been offered amnesty if they give up their arms.

Amnesty thy name is a poisoned drink or a death row over the balcony of a high rise

[quote]And Tara Reade defected to Russia 😂

Specifically, Tara Reade, who accursed Biden of sexual harassment, has fled to Moscow, where the action is.

From some Internet story:

[quote] Reed said she arrived in Moscow as a tourist but felt "safe for the first time in a very long time".

[quote]Latin America

Latin America is not Russia, tankie idiot.

Was America also responsible for the Night of the Long Knives in Germany?

Your “blame America for everything” schtick is so puerile.

How long have Putin and Prigozhin been at odds? And did those rumors that Putin was dying go away? Any chance this is a way for Putin to turn over the reigns without having to go through the motions of a semi-democratic transfer of leadership? Or was Prigozhin too unimportant prior to this for that scenario to be plausible? What’s the history? How did Putin allow Prigozhin to amass the military resources he has?

[quote]How long have Putin and Prigozhin been at odds?

Honestly, until Putin announced that what Prig. has done is treason, they were on the same side until now. I think Prig. may have been hoping for Putin to make a deal with him but that didn't work out - Putin HATES disloyalty.

From the Darth Putin Twitter account:

[quote] I’m beginning to think that giving a psychopath his own private army of criminals was not a good idea.

[quote]And did those rumors that Putin was dying go away?

Those were always just wishful thinking. Reminds me of the first year of Trump's presidency when the (still shellshocked) libs were claiming the pink lights in that one room of the White House meant Trump was receiving shock therapy and was months away from dying. So many posters here on DL claiming he'd never finish his presidency as well. Until someone actually croaks, it's just best to ignore any health rumours.

Cnn has its main anchors out on a Saturday.

Wolf Blitzer working on a Saturday ? You know something huge is coming

did they bring back don lemon?

Get the whole gang back together. Exhume Larry King while you're at it, let's tell those stories!

A re-tweet: "Putin is hiding in the bunker of his residence in Valdai. His closest friends and associates also flew there. The dictator is in a panic. Additional troops advanced towards Valdai to protect him. My sources just said this."

[quote]I forgot to mention they urge genocide in Ukraine.

I watched a YT video a few months ago of someone casually interviewing Moscovites on the streets on their thoughts on Putin's invasion of Ukraine. One woman said she supports it because the Ukrainians "had two mothers, and sons who want to be daughters" (I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist). A male respondent said Ukraine should be wiped out because the country is full of fascists and f-ggots." This is the mindset of the brainwashed Russians. Destroy a whole nation because they don't align with your belief system.

If they have to fight it out in a civil war, will they Nuke Kiev to put that war on the back burner for awhile?

[quote]will they Nuke Kiev to put that war on the back burner for awhile?

Fuck's sake, no, because that runs the real risk that NATO decides to enter the war and NATO can probably annihilate a lot of Russia's military fairly soon.

Thank you wagner group

Hear me out:

Putin nukes Kiev to divert attention away from his failures NATO enters the war Wagner Group rejoins Russian army to fight off NATO

World War 3

Ok thanks.

Did US intelligence agencies not see this coming? Everyone seems completely shocked.

Dagestan making a move?

Putin's worst fears come to life

The CIA had a hand in this

[quote]The CIA had a hand in this

Why do people want to make things incredibly complex and see conspiracy theories in everything when sometimes the obvious is the obvious and basic human psychology explains it.

[quote]will they Nuke Kiev to put that war on the back burner for awhile?

Any nuke in Ukraine would lead to NATO cleaning out the Russian forces from the entire territory of Ukraine, including Crimea, within 72 hours. Plus, they'd lose China and India would finally get off the fence.

So, no.

R303, “Kiev”? That’s the Russian spelling . . .

[quote]Wolf Blitzer working on a Saturday ? You know something huge is coming

Send me in coach!

Not great strategy to attack the only effective fighting force ya got.

From "Russia Apologists Posting Their Ls" Twitter

I think Wolf has used the term “dramatic” several dozen times since going on air. So annoying.

R311 Good spot. Nuclear is the main thing Russians have to try to stoke fear of them in the west and stops the west from acting more strongly against them. I am tired and bored of it - I am over it. Even nuclear doesn't kill as many people as they have killed so far.

r299 Yeah, the was probably from this wonderful 1420 channel, which does interviews with the Russkies on the streets. They've always been incredibly condescending towards Ukrainians, seeing them more as children than an actual nation. "We don't like what they're doing, let's just fucking genocide them, then."

[quote]Thank you wagner group

[quote]—Titanic submersible fiasco

OMG r302 TOO FUNNY because I was just flipping between CNN/Fox News/MSNBC an hour ago and FOX News had on as a guest the OceanGate co-founder who *didn't* just die a gruesome death at the bottom of the ocean trying to apologize/defend his reputation or whatever. Fox News doesn't seem to know what to do today!

They're running.

[quote]Fox News doesn't seem to know what to do today!

Still trying to sell the angle that the submersible went down due to wokeness and conveniently ignoring the fact that the CEO was a forced-birther and a GOP donor.

Moscow mayor announces no work on Monday except for those who are essential.

Obviously this Wagner Group guy can't stop now. If he doesn't "win," he'll be tortured and killed. Granted he'll probably end up being killed anyway. There's always the next phase of machinations and back-stabbing.

Putin has fled Moscow.

----------

Russian President Vladimir Putin's plane took off from Moscow early Saturday morning, heading towards St. Petersburg before disappearing from flight tracking radar.

Putin's presidential plane left at 14:16 Moscow time, according to FlightRadar data retrieved by NEXTA. While it's not clear where the plane was headed, it disappeared from tracking systems near Tver, a major city north of Moscow.

Presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov denied Putin had fled the city, saying he "is working at the Kremlin," according to The Independent and Ukrinform.

The news comes as Wagner forces appear to be descending on Moscow. On Friday, Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin rebelled against Russia's military leadership, accusing Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu of ordering an air strike on Wagner troops in Ukraine.

Prigozhin claimed to be leading 25,000 men in a so-called "march for justice" to overthrow Russia's Ministry of Defense. He said military leadership had been misleading Putin about the war in Ukraine and mismanaging military resources and assets.

The dramatic "march" follows months of tensions between Prigozhin and Russia's top military leaders.

TASS is authorized to declare... 🚨BREAKING: Reports of Wagner forces have ENTERED MOSCOW OBLAST, being 2 hours away from Moscow City.

Notes: Below video is UNVERIFIED, and we could not CONFIRM Wagner is in Moscow Oblast, however based on all the reports we're getting, I am confident tweeting this and stating that this is likely true. We are trying to verify this in the current space.

R322 Agree - either killed or arrested and left to rot in prison for decades. I just can't see how he has enough support to get what he wants. Putin was very clear in his speech - Prigozhin is a traitor and charged with a serious crime.

[quote]Obviously this Wagner Group guy can't stop now. If he doesn't "win," he'll be tortured and killed.

If he survives this, he'll be paraded naked in a cage on the Red Square, like the Romans did with their conquered peoples.

Not surprising, R306. Russia is basically a colonialist entity held together by corrupt top-down authority, and when that fails the whole complex spins apart.

What's surprising is how bad that person's stenciling skills are.

🐻👑: Wolf Blitzer is on his lunch break, but he was sure to inform CNN viewers that he'll be back at 4pm. Cause, you know, we can't get through these major DRAMATIC developments without him

r323 So Putin has fled the capital despite having hundreds of thousands of Rosgvardia – basically his personal army – at his disposal to deal with Wagner's relatively small force. Compare that to Zelensky who remained in Kyiv despite the enemy being practically on his doorstep.

Putin suspects that the West is trying to pull a Saddam on him and has fled the country

Check MAGA-LARDO for Putin.

[quote]has fled the country

No, he's fled to St Petersburg. Not the country.

r332 Yes, my bad, I meant "fled the capital".

Ukraine is on even higher alert, right?

I mean, short term, when your enemy is imploding at their own hand, stand back, but once the bullets settle then they'll need a fresh familiar focus -Ukraine.

Hopefully Putin’s mistress and daughters get the Wagner treatment if he did flee and leave them behind.

r332 Oh, never mind, I see you were quoiting r330.

Talks under way between Russia and Wagner, maybe

Putin will be assassinated, as he should be. He was totally unprepared for this coup.

[quote] Wolf Blitzer is on his lunch break, but he was sure to inform CNN viewers that he'll be back at 4pm. Cause, you know, we can't get through these major DRAMATIC developments without him

Man, that Wolf eats a LOT of lunch.

Even Russia's staunch allies Armenia and Kazakhstan have openly defied Putin. Seeing how the Russian Army has performed in Ukraine has made them question how capable and willing Russia is to defend them. This puts Armenia in a very precarious situation since they're surrounded by enemies. Tensions are already escalating again between Armenia and Azerbaijian.

[quote]This puts Armenia in a very precarious situation since they're surrounded by enemies.

Maybe Kim Kardashian can help them?

CNN has pushed Federricka to the side, and replaced with Amanpour

Putin fled??? But according to republicans, Vlad is the manliest man who ever manned!

Can't stand Amanpour.

She's become so preachy, but I dislike Blitzer even more.

Putin 's plane is turning back on Moscow. He is about to go nuclear

[quote]Putin will be assassinated, as he should be.

This is stupid and uninformed. Good luck getting anywhere close to Putin. It's more likely that Prigozhin will be assassinated. Or arrested and stuck in prison for decades.

Whenever Wolf and Christine are in the same building, you can bet he’ll he eating out for dinner. 😛✌️

[quote]CNN has pushed Federricka to the side, and replaced with Amanpour

They don't bring out the CNN war slut unless shit is serious.

after pootey-poot is strung up it will be fun to watch the secret trump related docs be released

I’ve been watching Danii Oran’s fantastic 1420 channel on YouTube since the invasion. There are occasionally very hot looking men on it like Alexei in the video posted above. But all of them make ke want to put a large group of the “babushkas” (far right grannies who slavishly support Putin) on a plane and crash it in the frozen tundra of Siberia.

[quote]“All messages and videos circulating on social media, attributed to Yevgeny Prigozhin, regarding alleged attacks by the Russian Defense Ministry on Wagner PMC rear camps, do not correspond to reality and are intended to misinform”...

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

This is all rather interesting.

Thank God Joe Biden is in the White House.

Biden and Harris had all-hands-on-deck meeting this morning with State, DoD, CIA, etc.

Biden has spoken with Macron, Rishi Sunak and German Poo-bah (can't think of her or his name).

r353 Yeah, Trump would have invited Putin to Mar-a-Lago by now, just like he did with Bolsonaro.

[quote] German Poo-bah

Lazy and offensive. Olaf Scholz or Annalena Baerbock?

He spoke with Olaf Scholz (on a call with Macron and Sunak).

Wagner will Eviscerate Ukraine

R358, put down the crack pipe and finish packing your knapsack. You and Svetlana need to be on a flight to Tiblisi before outgoing flights from Moscow are halted.

Not with a severely weakened military machine, he wion’t.

Ha barely took Bakhmut after throwing 20–30k of his men into the meat grinder, Wagner ain't eviscerating shit.

This should be good news for Ukraine, I think, if Russia’s military is otherwise occupied for a while.

Prigozhin is a former hotdog stand operator.

Belorusian dissidents see an opportunity to throw off Lukashenko's dictatorship and subservience to Moscow.

r364 That guy is HOT.

R264 he's sexy, too!

I see I'm not the only slut who watches news, R365.

Coming to street corner in Dubai 😢

If Russia's military was all that, they wouldn't need paid mercenaries to fight a war for them in the first place.

[quote] Lazy and offensive. Olaf Scholz or Annalena Baerbock?

Correct; that I was.

I'm sorry, r356

Sky News Live

DW News (Germany, in English) live

r369 To be fair, Blackwater is also a mercenary group and they get lots of work under GOP administrations.

Interesting rumor: all that complaining Prigozhin was doing about not having ammunition was false. He was stockpiling all of the ammunition that Russia’s military was sending to him.

[quote]I wish the similar thing happens to China next

This will never happen in China. Asians are too subservient to authority, and would never attempt to overthrow a corrupt government the way Eastern Europeans do.

R355, If, God forbid, Trump were president today, we'd be sending troops to Russia to protect Putin. You have to remember, however, this wouldn't have happened because Ukraine would have fallen to Putin without an invasion — not because the threat of Russia's military is so great, but because Trump would have handed Ukraine to Putin without an invasion nor even a skirmish.

R376, all that work by the Russians re: Trump. All for nothing now! Bahahaha

R374, oh I hope this is true

R364 I hope they grab the bastard in Hungary too while they're at it

actions have consequences- see what happened in Russia after they lost the Russo -Japanese war and WW1 . Ruskies have a pesky habit of taking out their leadership when they lose a war- Ukraine lost the war? LOL don't think so.

amendment- 'military action' most definitely not 'war'

R379, Hungary would have a more robust opposition if the EU weren't propping Orbán up. It's EU funds that he lavishes on his overblown, kickback-ridden public projects.

And this is why you don’t let government take away your guns.

R383, I'm sure there are some old babushkas around, armed with bayonets -- calling for Putin's head...

Keep in mind that this entire thing could be a ruse set up by Putin. Don’t trust these idiots for a second. They’re corrupt up to their eyeballs.

Oh, FFS R383. Be quiet now and let the adults talk.

[quote]Hungary would have a more robust opposition if the EU weren't propping Orbán up. It's EU funds that he lavishes on his overblown, kickback-ridden public projects.

Good god, how many time has this shit been debunked by now? The EU cuts funding to Hungary all the time, it's actually a huge reason why Hungary is in the toilet economically right now, despite bathing in Russian gas and oil. It's the deplorable Poland who keeps blocking harsher measures against them because those cunts are protecting each other's back. You really need to stop reading the British press when it comes to EU matters.

It’s just one mob fighting against another in a mafia state.

Prigozhin is fighting for his life and his empire against other russian kleptocrats.

At this point this will either end in death/removal of Shoigu and his clique or death/removal of Prigozhin or a coup and death/removal of Putin.

*times

R386, we ARE the adults. You’re a pansy who doesn’t live in the real world.

It's over

Wagner dude has decided to put down his guns. So say Belarus prez

R388 or Prigo surrenders as he just did

Much ado about nothing. And just like that, it ends

Wagner announces RETREAT! They are turning around from Moscow.

[quote]Keep in mind that this entire thing could be a ruse set up by Putin. Don’t trust these idiots for a second. They’re corrupt up to their eyeballs.

Putin is not that smart.

Does not make any sense. But, it's on live news now. Retreat.

R391, that's not quite true. According to the BBC, the Wagner Group has agreed to halt its progress towards Moscow, but we do not know on what terms or for how long.

Boooooo!

Things are moving quickly.

Belarus President brokered a deal. Wagner headed back to Ukraine :-(

I was hoping this would signal the end of the war in Ukraine.

Welp, if nothing else, Christiane Amanpour's blazer is EVERYTHING, yasssss

Why would Wagner now trust Putin?

We need to know what Putin gave Prigozhin?

Experts are saying that Putin is finished and Prigozhin is a dead man walking. Very mysterious.

R401, I know. There are so many weird possibilities. Prigozhin just directly challenged Putin. He invaded Russia. Putin had to negotiate by proxy with him. Prigozhin is, I think, more powerful at the end of this--if Putin actually lets him get away.

[quote] I was hoping this would signal the end of the war in Ukraine.

It might yet.

I suspect Prigozhin is going to fall out a window or get into a bad car accident soonish.

Gee, no one has said that yet on this thread, r407.

I think that kind of thing happens before this kind of thing r407. I think that happens when everyone is still pretending to be one big happy family.

Now? Well, it's an actual fight, an actual battle, and Putin must win this militarily or not at all.

Alexander S. Vindman ❎ @AVindman · 21m Regardless of how this insurrection is ends, the damage is done. Putin is severely wounded as the political leader of Russia. Things may unravel quickly for him. And Russian forces in Ukraine have been thrown into chaos at the upper echelons. The battlefield may also unravel.

Done and dusted!

Wait till they start looting the liquor stores. No one does drunken anarchy like Russkies.

It's hard to imagine how Prigozhin could rule even if he wins. Who in the military is going to trust the mercenary army that replaced them?

That's what Phillip Ittner is saying too r410. Putin may win this whole thing short term, but long term, he's definitely been wounded in the worst way he fears: people know that it is possible for armed men to turn on him.

I was hoping Moscow would burn.

So, let me get this straight. An oligarch that Pootz funded, supported and allowed to rape and pillage multiple countries is now BITCHING that other oligarchs have stolen everything his mercs need to rape and pillage ANOTHER country?

WTF?

And this is EXACTLY the sort of “paradise” the Koch cunt, the GQP and the talibangelicals envision for the US.

Tara Reid defected to Russia? What's that all about?

[quote] Good god, how many time has this shit been debunked by now? The The EU cuts funding to Hungary all the time .... It's the deplorable Poland who keeps blocking harsher measures against them

Yeah, and that's the EU. The EU doesn't somehow not include Poland and other reactionary, Fidesz-supporting voting members. Because of the way it's set up, and its lack of firm guardrails for democracy, the EU continues to support a member financially that has no effective free press, free judiciary, etc.

here, straight out of Russia.

Russians really are moody, aren't they?

I think this is a good take on the weird pseudo event:

"It's "maskirovka" (masquerade). Russia knows there are sleeper agents within the country waiting to depose Putin. So they stage a "coup" and monitor electronic chatter to smoke out those who believe it and let down their guard."

All of this seems very familiar...

R41. He was warning us here to be careful. Don't allow them to divide us- divide and conquer. One women said her son warned her to be careful, that there has been increased military activity here in the states. Does anyone know about this?

Putin got cucked hard, he will never again be perceived the same way, at home or abroad.

And people thought this guy would launch a nuke, don't make me laugh.

Is Pootie still hiding in St. Petersburg?

[quote]Yeah, and that's the EU. The EU doesn't somehow not include Poland and other reactionary, Fidesz-supporting voting members. Because of the way it's set up, and its lack of firm guardrails for democracy, the EU continues to support a member financially that has no effective free press, free judiciary, etc.

You're just fundamentally confused on this issue. The EU does have a way to deal with a member state using a firmer hand, but not when another member is blocking that action. That's not the EU's fault, which comprises of 27 member states. Just like DeSantis' policies in Florida are not Biden's fault. Hopefully that clears things up for you, but somehow I doubt it will.

He still could, he is a psychopath, an old psychopath.

Cuckoo Wagnerite called it all off.

This was just a test by Putin and his fellow baby killers led by Pirog to see who is with them and who is against them

Czar Nichols II- 1917 Czar Nicholas I- 1825 Peter the Grewt- 1698 Putin - 2023?

Is that the line r429? Is that what you assholes are going with?

[quote] The EU does have a way to deal with a member state using a firmer hand, but not when another member is blocking that action. That's not the EU's fault, which comprises of 27 member states.

I.e. "the EU" can deal with a member state unless one or more members say it can't? You seem to have a schizophrenic sense of the EU if you think that it's not its membership.

Roast Putin slowly on a spit, the murderous son of a bitch. We'll mail Trump in a big box to attend the funeral.

Is every female in Russia named Svetlana?

Is that all there is?

I suspect there will be a sequel, Peggy.

R429, no way does Putin willingly appear weak and at loss for control-- that's anathema to everything he wants to portray to the world.

[quote]Obviously this Wagner Group guy can't stop now.

This didn't age well.

How will this affect oil prices on the world market?

Wagner leader moving to Belarus and charges dropped by Kremlin.

New DL thread: Has anyone lived in Belarus? My partner and I are thinking of relocating. What is Belarus like?

I wonder what happened behind the scenes. It all started, and then ended, so abruptly.

It’s a measure of how batshit insane our times have become that, in the face of a military rebellion in a nuclear power, we all just roll with the punches. Like this is just the next thing to happen.

R441 is Brittney Griner.

R441, in Belarus all seems to breathe freedom and peace and to make one forget the world and its sad turmoils.

[QUOTE] How will this affect oil prices on the world market?

They’re gonna go up uP UP. The Saudis relish every opportunity to jack up the prices and inflict more economic pain on the world.

Things are changing by the hour . The Wagner Group leader is suddenly exiled in Belarus

The Wagner group sounds like a law-firm that handles personal injury and workman's compensation.

R446 You know little about how how Saudis have played the oil game. They love to sell cheap, too.

[quote] What is Belarus like?

It's ripe for the picking. It's on my "To Do" list after that old guy dies.

So what the fuck happened???

It’s all over before it really began!!

That fucker Putin probably didn’t even leave the country.

Did they offer that fat, bald dude money to abandon the effort?

R451, I posted this on the Putin thread. I really believe that this was a ruse for Prigozhin to remove himself from the war. He knew he risked being tossed out of a window if he resigned, so now he at least gets to live out his life. Of course, that’s not to say that Putin won’t try to off him.

Who is that twink on BBC right now?

[quote]I really believe that this was a ruse for Prigozhin to remove himself from the war.

This is uninformed - he was already removed from the war! Wagner were ordered to retreat.

This is such a strange story

Prigozhin is probably a dead man. Putin's assassins will be after him, even though that might make things worse. Too much loss of face.

Dying to know what they said or did to him to make him stop.

[quote]Dying to know what they said or did to him to make him stop.

He Had No Chance. He thought people would join him but they didn't. It's as simple as that.

Is the shortest mutiny in history? Has it even been 24 hours?

Russia has gone from a superpower to a clown car.

So… I realize that my post at r452 was poorly worded. No doubt he was already being removed, but I didn’t make it clear that this was a tactic to remove himself without getting killed. I think he figured either he’d succeed, or Moscow would have to negotiate with him, in which case he could escape to another country with his life. He really had no choice, he would have been executed if he returned to Moscow or if he were captured.

[quote] I didn’t make it clear that this was a tactic to remove himself without getting killed.

You did make that clear but it's a poor argument because Prigozhin is now MORE likely to be killed. What don't you understand about an armed insurrection against the state? How does that make him less likely to be killed?! Your thinking is so strange. Why would Putin have wanted to kill him if he'd simply done what Putin wanted?

Maybe a NATO country will offer him asylum, in exchange for intelligence on Putin.

In a perfect world, Ukraine would win the war and Zelenskyy would become president of Russia as well. I can dream.

R457, they offered him a private screening of the never-before-seen director's cut of Mommie Dearest. Who could resist?

R317, In his speech last night, Putin referred once more to Novorossiya, a concept he keeps repeating over and over. His desire for a mythological return to a "Greater Russia," a bullshit narrative where Russian, Ukrainian, and Belorussian brothers and sisters were united as one. But the Ukrainians are like, "This is how you treat your brothers and sisters? We don't want to join you so you deny our right to exist?"

I really hope Ukraine takes back its territory, joins NATO, and forever severs ties with big brother Russia if it continues to exist in its current incarnation.

Putin has been owned by a bald headed thug and there is no way that this was a diversion from failures in Ukraine or a ruse to get him to Belarus or to ferret out operatives in Russia. The whole world is watching this shit show with interest.

I am watching Wolf now and they had someone on mention that Moscow does not know the whereabouts of Prigozhin which is a rather odd bit.

Probably not the last guy to crack. The Russian military really is shit and every so often people will notice and go a little nuts about it.

[quote][R457], they offered him a private screening of the never-before-seen director's cut of Mommie Dearest. Who could resist?

Throw in Song of the South and you got yourself a deal!

I heard earlier today that Putin and Prigozhin are really good friends.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote]I heard earlier today that Putin and Prigozhin are really good friends.

You need to update your information.

Garry Kasaparov:

It's a mafia, not a state, and they will walk back or swallow anything that is profitable. Infighting rarely is. This also exposes the stupidity of saying Putin needs off-ramps or to save face in Ukraine. He's a dictator, and can make up anything he wants.

Prigozhin and Putin don't care about bloodshed. Not about Russians, not about Ukrainians or anyone else. They care about money and the power to keep it. If they made a deal, it will last only as long as the money does.

Why do people post Daily Heil links here? There are better sources.

Imagine living in this shithole.

The MAGAt view, as expressed by renowned foreign policy expert Lauren Boebert:

"I still remember when President Trump was the leader of the free world and you didn’t have wild conflicts all over the world going on constantly.

How I miss those days!

It’s time to bring leadership back!"

Putin wins

Putin's $ check to Wagner has finally cleared the bank.

Elon Musk speculates there is more to come

Is wagner group leader still alive?

R470, they had known each other for decades, and they were very useful to each other. That’s probably as close to friendship as it gets for people like that.

I don't care what deal was made, Putin will be determined to kill those mercs some way or another. I would never make a deal with Putin unless it meant going overseas to a safe country and even then...

I tried that, back in the day r482

Here's what I want to know? A lot of the Russian soldiers controlled by Putin's generals do not want to be there. They hate being forced into the army and sent to a war zone. And they are finding out first hand that it's a bad situation. A lot of them have deserted, or just refuse to fight (not openly, but still) Then you have Prigozhin and his mercenaries. They are obviously loyal to him. So are Russian soldiers joining the Wagner group in their rebellion? My point is does Prigozhin have enough influence to command not just his own troops but the Russians who have turned on the government of Putin? Now I think Prigozhin is a dead man walking. I think Lukashenko of Belarus was paid off by Putin to hold him in custody. But I don't understand what made Prigozhin stand down. If he has the muscle who intimidated him to turn himself in to Lukashenko. I am also noticing the way Putin deployed his police and his agents and others to maintain order in Moscow and other cities, and they suspended the internet, etc. and IMO something is afoot and Putin has to know his generals cannot save him. BTW, the Daily Fail showed Putin and other gov't officials leaving Moscow on planes as Prigozhin marched to within 125 miles of the capital.

Prigozhin is in Belarus now? Huh?

[quote]I don't care what deal was made, Putin will be determined to kill those mercs some way or another

Putin can't continue the fighting in Ukraine without the mercenaries. The actual Russian army is too weak.

[quote]I don't understand what made Prigozhin stand down.

It's simple. You cannot take and hold Russia with an army of ~10k. Not even his claimed 25k men.

Prigozhin betted on Rosgvardiya, FSB and other people joining him. They didn't.

Were they blow job buddies back in the day?

People in Moscow were asked, "What's going on in Russia" after Prigozhin and the Wagner group started to make their way to Moscow.

"Everything's fine. People are walking their dogs." Many still say they are not interested in politics even when tanks are rolling up and down the street.

Why do I have this growing feeling that this whole thing was staged?

It made Putin look weak, incompetent, and unmanly. Made Russian military look horrible and even somewhat mutinous -- they let him through.

If it was staged I don't see the upside at all.

R491, Putin is a master troll strategist

R490, really? That would be the equivalent of a single shot in a movie that had to be absolutely perfect but had to unfold over 15 hours. And it would be It would be completely undetected by the entire international intelligence community.

Fox spouting that Nato and the US government instigated it. BIDEN!

[quote]Elon Musk speculates there is more to come

So it’s all over, then.

[quote]U.S. spy agencies picked up intelligence in mid-June indicating Wagner mercenary chief Yevgeniy Prigozhin was planning armed action against the Russian defense establishment — which he has long accused of bungling the war in Ukraine — and urgently informed the White House and other government agencies so they were not caught off-guard, several U.S. officials said Saturday.

[quote]U.S. intelligence agencies believe that Putin also was informed that Prigozhin was plotting something. And though it is not clear precisely when he was told, it was “definitely more than 24 hours ago,” the U.S. official said.

By whom, r490? Prigozhin is now a marked man. No one crosses Putin, or any dictator, without consequences, even one whose stature has diminished over the course of the invasion. It's just a question of time and if Putin lasts.

Putin's weakness has been further exposed and his credibility within the military severely diminished. He knows there have to be sympathetic supporters pretty high up in the military for Prigozhin to have attempted. Perhaps Prigozhin even secured some form of assurances that he saw as a green light to insurrect, but they fell through. I've seen some speculation that Ukraine ordered the fight for Bakhmut and to persist there because their intelligence services had been picking up on strains in *their* relationship not Prigozhin's with Shoigu or the MoD, but to further drive a wedge between Putin and Prigozhin.

It's been a lose-lose scenario for both. Ukraine, on the other hand, has emerged the victor in this. Things must be in such a disarray among Russian forces in Ukraine and morale, not just among ground troops, but all the way up the chain of command must be at an al time low.

Word of the day for all media is : Chaotic

R498 that's because none of them have any idea or any credible sources to analyze this mess. Although I have to grudgingly hand it to CNN. They put Christiane Amanpour on And kept her there. Her guests were true experts and I felt like I was at a college seminar. Her experience and her longevity as well as her sources, are unmatched.

I think Prigozhin is a dead man walking. I have to wonder what Putin promised Lukashenko to get him to negotiate the "pause." Those people in the streets were shaking Prigozhin's hand and celebrating as he passed through on his way to Moscow. Meanwhile Putin and top government officials were jumping on private planes heading out of Moscow. Not a good look. Putin needs the Wagner Group, 25,000+ men, and the troops now know how totally incompetent Putin's Military high command is. So how will he get them to fight for his generals, while keeping Prigozhin locked down in Belarus? Putin's in a mess and killing Prigozhin is not going to help him. But I bet that's what he plans on doing. He will send a very strong message. That's the kind of guy he is. If anything we did get a glimpse of what Putin will do if he's faced with riots and a break down in civil order. He'll just jump on a plane.

The anti-climatic "civil war".

Need Fibro Warriors over there. Not people who cut and run.

R499 Yes, I think Putin was in a position that no dictator wants to be in: dependent on someone that was also a threat to his power. Putin needs the Wagner mercenaries to get things done in Ukraine. No matter how many “yes men” Putin has, he knows how to read a calendar. The Russian military alone may not be able to finish the job.

There’s a commentator (kamilkazani on Twitter) who has described in detail the balancing act dictators such as Putin must do to get things done well but not be overthrown. Putin outsourced technological advancement for warfare with developers outside of Russia to keep them less of a threat to his power in Russia. Do that long enough and you end up behind your enemies that develop technology in-house.

In Prigozhin’s case, he had to be in the country to run a successful campaign. But now that he’s a threat, Putin had to get him out of the country, which he did quickly. Whether or not Prigozhin lives, the loss of him is likely a serious problem for Putin’s war effort against Ukraine.

Prigozhin has been an enthusiastic supporter of the war in Ukraine. He's not a "good guy." The best way to characterize what's happened is a squabble between Putin's generals. The Russian Defense Ministry has done a poor job of prosecuting this war and that's an understatement. Meanwhile you have Prigozhin, an ally of Putin, who is emptying the Russian prisons to get recruits for his Wagner Group, out here doing the Russian version of what constitutes a good job.

But then Putin's Defense ministry stops Prigozhin from emptying the prisons, and further insists he sign a contract allowing all his forces to come under the jurisdiction of the Defense department. He refused. He prefers to run his own operations, sometimes in conflict with the overall strategy. It's a clusterfuck in the truest sense of the word. Meanwhile Ukraine has unleashed the first stage of their massive counteroffensive and hasn't even begun to deploy their main forces yet.

The internal conflict makes Putin look really bad and the fact that he jumped on a plane to "evacuate" Moscow after characterizing Prigozhin's march towards the capital as comparable to the civil war and revolution Czar Nicholas faced during WW1, tells me Putin's hold on power is pretty fragile. Especially when you look at the videos of crowds of young people cheering Prigozhin as he marched to within 125 miles of Moscow. Those young people do not want to be drafted into fighting. Putin's military is falling apart and the real danger to the state, is that there ends up being several Wagner Group type operations out here. Quashing Prigozhin is only a temporary solution. If Putin continues to fight Ukraine, he is doomed.

Putin is a snake.

Prighozen is a snake.

Lukashenko is a snake.

This will be delicious to watch who kills whom first.

Prigozhin may be (or may have been) an enthusiastic supporter of the war. But no one else at that level in Russia has said what he said yesterday: the war was started by the oligarchs for no reason. There was no danger from Ukraine or NATO. I assume Prigozhin goes back to fight Ukraine some more. But I wonder how he'll take those statements back. Or maybe he just says he didn't say them.

R505 so you didn't know Ukraine is Europe's Bread Basket and energy source? The Oligarchs wanted to rape Ukraine for cash. Like they do everywhere.

[quote]The internal conflict makes Putin look really bad and the fact that he jumped on a plane to "evacuate" Moscow

This tells me that when he strategised at the start that Zelensky would flee Kyiv at the first attack, he was simply projecting, a la Donald.

[quote]Putin is a snake. Prighozen is a snake. Lukashenko is a snake.

Do I get to fuck all three?

Do I have to fuck all three?

Prigozhin = bossy bottom.

Is it safe to assume Prigozhin was an enthusiastic supporter or the war as long as he was making a good profit? He saw it was unwinnable under current circumstances cut his losses. It also offered the the best, most psychologically comfortable explanation for himself and the troops "We failed because we were not properly supported with munitions, logistics, etc.

I saw a lot of young, fit military aged guys in those Rostov street scenes. I wonder if they’ll be getting their draft notices this week.

If he actually goes to Belarus, Putin will be able to grab his cash. No, Prigozhin is going on to Africa, where Wagner has power, money and security.

Has Prigozhin been indicted as a war criminal yet?

R511, Those guys are probably ethnic Russians and will be the last to go. Russia conscripts their non-Slavic citizens first.

[quote]I saw a lot of young, fit military aged guys in those Rostov street scenes.

Any hot pics?

R506, yes, I know that.

Prighozen

gapped teeth

R510 and R505 Prigozhin is looking around, he knows they're getting their asses handed to them, and he has decided to try to get some stink off himself: " The oligarchs started the war, the Generals fucked it all up with their incompetence. " He's just getting out in front of the mess.

It’s hilarious how some delusional people are using this situation to imply Putin is playing 4-dimensional chess or something. Not only does he come off as looking weak, but now WG mercenaries are receiving the generous offer to sign contracts with the Russian government. The government that can’t adequately feed, clothe, and train the troops they already have.

[quote] Can't they just fight it out in Call of Duty like civilized people?

Russians are not civilized people -- not in 2023; certainly no longer the civilized people who brought you Tchaikovsky and Baryshnikov.

It's very amusing that Russians are shocked that the rest of the world wants nothing to do with their hellscape.

Russians pretend to be civilized people as they rape and rob. It's their national, civic, and POOR genetic history that created a nation of sociopaths. Genghis Khan fucked them bad.

R520, and Russians absolutely [bold]HATE[/bold] Americans.

They cannot comprehend how this nation of mutts keeps kicking their asses over and over again.

Long ago in another century,post WW 2, the Russians did attempt to implement their version of communism. They had the farm collectives and a lot of slogans about workers, and etc. and kids who demonstrated proficiencies in certain areas were sent to special schools. Not by choice.v So you have the Baryshnikovs, or the scientists who were trained from a young age. That all went away when Gorbachov went away. Of course the system was very corrupt even from the start with the hierarchy getting all the rewards and fancy apartments.. Once everything was privatized and the Oligarchs took over led by Putin, things are worse than ever. There's a movie you must watch. It's called "Mr. Jones." It will tell you everything you ever want to know about Russia in post WW2 when Communism was touted as their great success.

Adam Curtis's documentary, Russia 1985–1999: TraumaZone, really shows how Russia got here. It's available for free on YouTube.

Losers. I didn't have to pay anyone to attack the government and try to overthrow the leader!

Russian intelligence services threatened to harm the families of Wagner leaders before Yevgeny Prigozhin called off his advance on Moscow, according to UK security sources.

It has also been assessed that the mercenary force had only 8,000 fighters rather than the 25,000 claimed and faced likely defeat in any attempt to take the Russian capital.

It was disturbing and disheartening to see a bunch of young Rostovites chanting "Wagner! Wagner! Wagner!" in support of Prigozhin and his band of thugs. These terrorists murder innocent civilians for money. They fight for no cause or ideals but for their own selfish interests ($$$), yet they were treated like heroes. If this is Russia's future, then we are all doomed.

[quote] If this is Russia's future, then we are all doomed.

We? They seem to be dooming themselves.

R527, Yes, I said "we" because Russia's influence extends beyond their borders. As Putin's private army and under Prigozhin's leadership, the Wagner Group has played pivotal roles in the internal conflicts of Syria, Libya, Sudan, Central African Republic, Mozambique, Venezuela, etc. I'm hearing a few pundits say that Prigozhin will simply be biding time in Belarus and will re-emerge to run for President of Russia in the coming months. If he is revered as a hero, this will spell trouble for the entire world.

[quote] Russia's influence extends beyond their borders.

Russia is not all-powerful. The US, China, the EU are all more powerful than Russia. 'We' are not all doomed if Russia implodes. Russia is basically a gas station second world state that likes to pretend that it's a world power when it isn't really.

Be careful when you say that, r529. A wounded pit bull is at its most dangerous.

Obrador, Mexico's president, is a Trump, Bolsonaro, Dutuerte, Orban, Le Pen, and the new Italian PM all rolled into one and he's on our border.

[QUOTE]Anyone paying attention in DC? #Mexico has been accrediting new Russian diplomats at levels that the depth and breadth of bilateral ties between MexCity and Moscow simply do not justify. 36 newly-accredited "diplomats" since the start of the UKR invasion

R530 What tf does Obrador have to do with this? Please stick to Russia.

[quote]36 newly-accredited "diplomats" since the start of the UKR invasion

Sooo scary, Mexico has 36 new Russian diplomats! We're all doomed! Doomed!

Yes, yes, Russia has many supporters and well-wishers among the international authoritarian community. Their support for Russia will extend only as far as the flailing, floundering Russian economy and military can help them.

Russia is a second rate gas station WITH NUKES, let’s be clear.

The fucking nukes are the ONLY reason anyone pays attention to this third world shithole.

Prigozhin is dumber than he looks if he thinks he’s going to live long enough to challenge Pootz again. He’s a dead man walking.

His best hope is to turn himself in for the $250K bounty the FBI has on him.

Yes, same thing with North Korea. A third world backwards authoritarian hellhole which can't even feed its people but they have nukes so people pay attention to them.

So you think that an extra three dozen "diplomats" aren't Russian operatives and you like having them near our border with an impoverished, unstable country headed by a Trump wannabe and mostly run by drug cartels? Alrighty, then.

R536 Sure, explain what they can realistically do?

[quote] They fight for no cause or ideals but for their own selfish interests ($$$), yet they were treated like heroes. If this is Russia's future, then we are all doomed.

How is this different from Russia's present? What do people imagine Putin and his gang of thieves and assholes care about right now?

As a state yeah, Russia is a second rate gas station...yes with nukes. But Putin and his oligarchs have billions to throw around and the authrotarian POS leaders in other countries are happy to be his clients. He did that with Trump. And Prigozhin developed and ran the troll farms. Because of the internet and social media, Russia doesn't need to get into a shooting war like they used to do in the days of Krushchev in the Cold War days of the 60's 70's 80's. Now the weapons are the internet. Disinformation. And with some smart buys, like a Trump or one of these other second rate dictators, they can do a lot of damage.

R539 here. Wanted to say that Putin getting into an actual military invasion of Ukraine was the absolute dumbest thing he could have done.

[quote] They fight for no cause or ideals but for their own selfish interests ($$$), yet they were treated like heroes. If this is Russia's future, then we are all doomed.

—R526

[quote] How is this different from Russia's present? What do people imagine Putin and his gang of thieves and assholes care about right now?

—R538

It’s also scary how easily these two statements can be revised:

THE REPUBLICANS fight for no cause or ideals but for their own selfish interests ($$$), yet they were treated like heroes. If this is THE US’s future, then we are all doomed.

How is this different from THE US’s present? What do people imagine TRUMP and his gang of thieves and assholes care about right now?

He is one of the ugliest men I've ever seen in my life.

[quote] How is this different from THE US’s present?

Your hypothetical doesn't work at the moment, since Trump is out of office and under indictment; the Democrats control the executive branch and the upper chamber of Congress; and Republicans have kept falling short, sometimes disastrously, in every major election since 2017.

He looks like the guy who plays Charlotte's ugly husband on Sex and the City (or whatever they're calling it now).

Supposedly Putin threatened Prigozhin that he was going to kill his family and all the families of the top Wagner military. That is why he stopped his march to Moscow.

You would think that Prigozhin knows that Putin would pull that shit and put his family in hiding

[quote] Because of the internet and social media, Russia doesn't need to get into a shooting war like they used to do in the days of Krushchev in the Cold War days of the 60's 70's 80's.

Maybe the fucking Russians could try, oh, I dunno, fixing their fucked-up nation? That would be a novel concept for them wouldn't it?

The Washington Post.- U.S. spies learned in mid-June Prigozhin was planning armed action in Russia.

The intelligence fed concerns about whether Vladimir Putin would remain in power and what any instability could mean for control of Russia’s nuclear arsenal.

It would be wonderful if this was the year of Putin's and Trump's downfall. Double whammy please!

Did I miss our resident "Putin's running out of time and money" bot?

1 year, 4 months and 3 days of "Putin's running out of time and money"

R547, isn't that the truth. Instead, what has become clear, is that at some point Putin stopped caring about even the facade of running a country and he and his oligarch friends just grabbed every thing they could. Nothing demonstrates Putin's "governing style" better than the condition of his army. The obsolete tanks and military equipment, the way the soldiers are treated. They were starving and were grateful to the Ukrainians for giving them food. Guns didn't even work. Ran out of ammo, etc. It reads like a really bad WW 1 novel. Here we were as they assembled on the border preparing to invade Ukraine, and the media was touting the Russian army. And Zelensky said, in effect, " We're ready. No worries." because Ukraine knew what a shit mess the actual reality of Russian military was. And their economy is in terrible shape. It almost seems like in the early days when W was POTUS, and then Obama, Putin seemed to act like he was really governing his country, but he went off the rails during the Obama PResidency and dropped all pretexts of trying to run a government. He no longer cared about perpetuating the fiction that he was any kind of legitimate leader.

R552, when you put it that way, Prigozhin's claim that Russia invaded Ukraine because Russia's elites wanted to loot its economic assets makes sense. (He said that they'd already drained the Donbas region, and needed more).

R553 I believe that is absolutely true.

"The Man Without A Face: The Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin" by Masha Gessen is a brilliant take. In fact she writes brilliantly about Russia and authoritarianism. Another book worth reading is "Blowout" by Rachel Maddow, and then there's Craig Unger who writes brilliantly "House of Trump/House of Putin," and several other great reads. If you can only read one, read Nessen. But the Unger stuff, he's got 4 books that IMO are 'must read" books. Recently, " American Kompromat" . I like to try and get context and see the broader picture when stuff happens, because you can't depend on our media at all.

Prigozin is simply more valuable to the Russian oligarchs who control Russia. Prigozhin has the massive troll farm, Internet Research Service, which is back up and running as of yesterday. Just check Twitter out today. It makes Truth Social look almost benign. Of course he has his loyal mercenaries, and as well as the respect and goodwill of may in Russia. He has power in Africa, as well as a diamond mine there which he reportedly has half interest in with Putin owning the other 50 percent. Everyone said Putin made a fatal mistake attacking Ukraine. The oligarchy were against it and many lost millions of dollars, yachts, and many their life. Reportedly Putin has been seen as a weak leader because of it. They prefer the other animal, Prigozin. The man most responsible for inflicting Trump,maga's, and division on us. They still do this daily through the troll farms and of course the GOP, which they own . Honestly, as much as I despise Putin, I would rather see Prigozin killed. He is the bigger threat.

Just to add, Putin may not be in a position to have him killed any longer. Putin is a paper tiger at this point , imo.

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Speaking of Wagner, the U.S. military once infamously made minced meat of them in battle.

Putin is both predictable and controllable. He also has his own private army of secret police and protection. He moves quietly, in stealth, and his oligarch buddies both love and fear him. Never underestimate him. Prigozhin, OTOH, is an unpredictable mercurial asshole. So IMO it's Prigozhin who is in danger right now. But he is a very bad enemy to have. Putin is shrewd not to go for a full frontal attack. I think the sentiment in top echelons of government as well as with his oligarchs, is that Putin was goaded into attacking Ukraine, and was completely mislead and misinformed. Not excusing him at all, but it would not surprise me to discover that Prigozhin was among those who promoted a war with Ukraine as something easy and fast, and an opportunity to seize control of Ukraine's wealth. I predict that the guy who is running the war for Putin, the guy Prigozhin hates is going to fall out a window or assassinated. Putin and Lukashenko will give Prigozhin a pass for now, but his days are numbered. The very fact that the Russian military leaders wanted to absorb Prigozhin's army under their control tells me Putin feels Prigozhin is too much of a threat. Vlad did his cost/benefit analysis and decided Prigozhin has to go. Biggest problem, IMO is getting out of Ukraine and saving face. So I think Zelensky needs to be super careful. I think now, more than ever, as Putin looks for an exit strategy, Zelensky's life is in danger.

Hasn't Zelensky's life always been in serious danger r560? How more so now.

I wouldn’t trust Putin for a second.

As soon as Prighozin and his troops have laid down their arms and retreated, Putin will have them all murdered. The president of Belarus will assist.

Prighozin is basically my brother Fredo, who betrayed me. I'll deal with him after mother dies.

R561, You're right Zelensky's life has always been in danger, but it was part of the strategy in the past, where now I think it may be a priority. I think, in Putin's world, he would love to get out of Ukraine, but he has to save face. And he will never give up Crimea and other parts that are under his control. So to get out somewhat intact, he needs for Zelensky, who has emerged as heroic with the whole world in love with him, to die. This creates the immediate pathway for peace without Zelensky insisting on shit Putin refuses to give up. With Zelensky out of the way, Putin can claim he was the main obstacle to peace, and end the war. He also needs people to focus on something besides this latest embarrassment.

Not sure how that works, R564. If Putin had Zelensky assassinated, even with some measure of plausible deniability, he wouldn't be able to claim that Zelensky "was the main obstacle to peace," since the succeeding Ukrainian administration would certainly continue prosecuting the war with even more determination.

Maybe R565, but IMO many (not all) of the allies would probably urge Ukraine to take the deal. This wars has had negative consequences for other countries in Europe. Putin withdraws and peddles the fallacy that Zelensky had to go he was an obstacle to peace. His Russians will believe him. He doesn't give a shit about the rest. The Russian ability to dissemble is unrivalled. And of course now that there's a fracture he can say it was someone from the Wagner Group assassinate Zelensky. Which also gives him a shot at Prigozhin. It's a win/win.

I really don't see that Zelensky personally is some kind of linchpin, or that Putin could realistically expect "many of the allies" to change their policy depending on who is president of Ukraine. Assassinating Zelensky might have an immediate impact on Ukrainian morale, but it wouldn't change the battlefield situation except to make the Ukrainian command, troops, and general population ultimately oppose the Russians even more.

R555, Masha Gessen is a dude. He was on CNN on Sunday night.

R566, I don’t agree. Assassinating Zelensky would show that Putin is a threat to every leader in the world, that he cannot be relied on to observe the absolute bare minimum of international law. It would increase opposition to Russia.

R568, they are non-binary. I believe that they were born female and previously identified as a lesbian.

R569 Putin is already seen as a threat to world leaders. He obviously doesn't care what they think or he would have never invaded. But at the same time, the NATO coalition is not as strong as they want us to believe, and some countries are growing very t ired of the conflict. Hungary, Germany, Turkey, would be easy to buy off. Putin sees that Zelensky has emerged as the rallying point. He and his wife travel to capitals addressing governments, selling the war and shoring up support. Ever since this thing started, Zelensky's life has been in danger. In fact it was even confirmed that the Wagner group was on the hunt for him. That has all faded from the news. But think about it. If Zelensky falls and the Wagner group gets the blame, yes there will be expressions of outrage, but then, there will be discussions and a withdrawal. And Putin can spin it to the Russian people that as tragic as Zelensky's death is, he was an obstacle to Putin's peace. LOL!

Errm, there is Black man helming the Russian military along with the others?

What exactly is Putin going to buy off Hungary, Germany, and Turkey with? His goal is to take Ukraine and loot it. If anybody can be "bought off" it's probably Putin. On the other hand, if any assassination would be a big game changer, it would be the assassination of Putin. Russian oligarchs, Russian mercenaries, Russian regular troops, NATO leaders, and no doubt many others all have a common interest in seeing Putin dead. If anybody should be worried, it's him.

Putin is reputed to be the wealthiest man in the world. Yes. He has billions. And his oligarch clan has billions more. And Ertogan and the asshole running Hungary, are very much open to offers. All one needs to do is get to the right people. And when bribes aren't enough threats work well too. You have to know that the FSB is already built dossiers on most world leaders.

The way things were supposed to work, Trump was going to get re elected. The United States would then join with Extreme Right leadership in France, and Germany would work to weaken NATO and make life very difficult for Zelensky. Ukraine gets invaded, a weakened, fractured coalition of NATO is no longer effective there to oppose him, and it's over in less than a month. But it didn't.

R574, people who are bribable can be bribed by anyone.

[quote] Putin is reputed to be the wealthiest man in the world

A fat lot of good that must do when you live in a constant state of paranoia and misery -- never certain when an unknown assailant or a false 'friend' is plotting your execution.

The New York Times

President Vladimir Putin of Russia appeared only once during a mercenary’s daylong mutiny against the military. But he was all over Russian TV on Tuesday, seeking to project an image of control, as the Kremlin’s image machine shifted into action.

R578, lol. What a weak pussy Putin is. 😂

[quote] Speaking of Wagner, the U.S. military once infamously made minced meat of them in battle.

Yes. Trump was the only US president who would directly and publicly kick Russian ass on the battlefield. Truman likewise fought the Russian"volunteers" in Korea but hid the truth of what was happening and punished anybody who who spoke the truth.

Jon Huntsman Jr on CNN tonight said he believes Putin’s “trickery” will result in the nukes in Belarus being pointed at Poland,.

I just read that Putin has sent a plane to the U.S. to pick up his diplomats or whomever, and return them to Russia. This is not cool. Prigozhin was holed up in a hotel room with no windows? they're saying he feared assassination. There are some reports he is going to Russia to meet with Putin today. On the one hand this is developing like some real life spy movie, but with the threat of nuclear weapons. Has Putin lost his fucking mind? Who persuaded him Ukraine would be a cake walk? I can't believe his ego and greed would drive him to such extremes. He has palaces and summer houses, and a private army, and he travels and lives like a Czar. He has enriched his friends from the old days. Even his fucking martial arts instructor is a multi millionaire! He puts his people in key jobs owning mineral rights and all kinds of shit, gas, oil, etc. and he is a "partner" in all their businesses, and he can remove them or disappear them when ever he wants, and they are loyal to him.Why wouldn't they be? They live well and have their own private jets. Like courtiers in the time of the Czar. Does he really need Ukraine for practical reasons? Or is it just because.

[quote]Does he really need Ukraine for practical reasons?

It's imperial ambition and ideological. And proof again that money can't buy everything.

Oof! The WSJ is reporting that Prigozhin's original plan was to "capture the two leaders of Russia's military operations the two top guys. But the FSB found out about it and he had to improvise and handle it another way with this march to Moscow.

OK. So the top guy in Russia's defense ministry tells Wagner group they all have to sign contracts and they have to come under the jurisdiction of the Russian military. In other words, Russia wants to absorb them and in effect, get rid of Wagner Group and very likely eliminate the need to Prigozhin's leadership. He would also have to submit to the Russian high command. I get why he was pissed off. Especially since he and his men were getting shit even as they were in the war zone. Fighting the Ukrainians as well as Russian troops. But I can't imagine the top Russians in the Defense ministry doing that without the green light from Putin. And Putin had to know how Prigozhin would react. So WTF happened? Seems like they would have got rid of Prigozhin first by stealth, and then absorbed his soldiers. Something isn't fitting here.

And, to build on what you said, R585, why would well-paid, well-managed Wagner mercenaries WANT to join the Russian army, which is in shambles? I'd imagine they are dealing with a great deal of resistance to this directive.

R586 Because they don't have any alternative? Wagner was already funded by Russia. Now that Russia has pulled the plug on Prigozhin, they won't be getting wages?

R585 here.Also I learned from a news cast on NPR this afternoon , that the Wagner group isn't just a band of former convicts and militia fighting inn Ukraine. The organization is pretty big and Putin has funded and used them for all kinds of mischief while keeping the buffer of plausible deniability between Putin and these mercenaries. Actually right now the Wagner Group is very much on the scene in parts of Africa doing their dirt. So it's a balancing act. Putin needs to continue using them but he doesn't want any shit in his own backyard.

R588, as I understand it, one of the appeals of the Wagner Group is that they get to keep part of what they loot. Prigozhin has assets all over the world as a result of this. Indeed, one reporter said that Prigozhin’s relationship with Putin really broke down because Prigozhin wanted to be given a Ukrainian salt mine, and Putin refused to let him take it. (There’s a lot of money in salt; Prigozhin makes a lot of money from a salt mine he owns/has stolen somewhere else.)

%89, I don't know why Prigozhin would even consult Putin about the salt He's accustomed to taking what he wants, and he divides it 50/50 with Putin. Right now Prigozhin owns a diamond mine in Africa as well as a shitload of other stuff. He's a very wealthy man.

These private armies can pay well. I have had a couple of friends, former military, that went to Iraq, made a lot of money, and managed to get shot at a time or two.

Even with US companies that has been a lucrative job.

It’s the nature of living in the US a country without a draft and lots of people that refuse to serve themselves.

R582 " Prigozhin was holed up in a hotel room with no windows? they're saying he feared assassination"

At least he can rule out death by defenestration.

You know, if Putin wanted to get rid of him, really get rid of him, all he would've had to do is buy an assassin to kill him in the Ukraine and say it was a during a battle.Friendly fire?

[quote] Prigozhin was holed up in a hotel room with no windows?

He's actually in a hotel with windows that do not open, like in some high rise office buildings.

A windowless room is no problem. Walls are not much of a hindrance.

According to preliminary information, Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Forces Surovikin and his deputy, Colonel-General Yudin, were detained and taken to the Lefortovo pre-trial detention center.

Is that the top military guy, r596? Btw, I created a part 2 to continue the discussion.

Wow. Interesting. And latest from the WSJ says "Putin moves to seize control of Wagner 's global empire. " So if it's true that Surovkin and Yudin were detained and it's also true Putin is seizing control of Wagner Group's "global empire" Prigozhin's days are numbered, and who the fuck will Putin assign to continue his war against Ukraine? And I don't see Prigozhin going down without a fight.

R597, Surovikin was the only Russian general who seemed effective in Ukraine, so of course he was replaced. Clearly he was very angry about that.

I really can't see any face -saving way out of this for Putin. In order for this war to end in a ceasefire and a withdrawal, someone else has to be in charge. Both Putin and Prigozhin are on shaky ground. And they were once "business" partners. If all the people who played a key role in this war, Surovikin, Prigozhin, and Yudin are being detained or worse, who's in charge? And the young men in Russian right now do not want to get drafted and sent to the front with very little if any training to get killed. The media is interviewing all these experts who are saying Putin looks very weak and he is not in control.