Can someone please tell me where we Gays stand politically now?

I can't speak for "the general consensus of DL," which is what you asked for.

I'll speak for myself.

People are foolish and more easily manipulated than I can believe much of the time. And particularly older people who have life experience. I cannot believe how easily people are coerced to reject the values they have always purported to have because of wedge issues selected by political strategists, but it always works.

I also can't believe how eager most people are to hate or at least look down on any 'other' when someone decides to point the finger at them, but that is what people do.

Where I stand politically now is that I am disappointed in the always-roving targets of hatred that are placed on various populations and by groups' eagerness to hate. Existentially, I don't want an apocalyptic scenario. Politically, I am hoping the AI chatbots take over and decimate or destroy human civilization because we're awful.

My view of gay people in recent years is that gay people by and large, as a group, are no different than any other group: hypocritical and hateful when given the opportunity to jump on a bandwagon of hate. Also stupid and impressionable. I always thought gay people were generally smarter than most others but we are not. Gay people take the bait of politicians and media once gay people no longer feel threatened and stop being vigilant about what is really going on and why.

25 years ago when I was 20, gay people were broadly looked down upon as inferior human beings because this was encouraged socially. Within five years, that changed and we became precious.

I always wondered when I was young how women, Black people, anyone who had to fight for civil rights and protections could hate gay people. In my view, the experiences and trajectories were the same. Now gay people hate transgender people.

When I was young, the views of gay people were: Something is wrong with them. They are mentally ill. They are predators. Being gay is just a fad or a phase. It's not real. I was gay and I knew all of that was entirely incorrect. So did all gay people. Now, most gay people hypocritically have adopted those exact wrong arguments about transgender people, and doing it against their own interests because that is Republican hate strategy that is based on the SAME false ideas of gay people, Black people and women—inferior, fucked up by nature, insane, unworthy.

Congratulations to the gays of today for being the equivalent of Reagan-supporting conservatives during the Reagan era.

You are being manipulated and you don't even care, just as hypocritical faux-Christians do not care, because it gives you license to look down on and hate others who you feel are 'other' and make you uncomfortable. OK.

The bottom line to me has never changed. All living beings have a right to exist without being harmed. No person is inherently flawed.

OP and R1 will possibly be the end of reasonable, and insightful thought on this thread.

Let the shrieking begin. 🙄🙄

Beautifully said, r1. It's been really depressing to witness. The weird thing is every gay person I know in real life is pro-trans-rights - it's just on here that I see us spitting right-wing filth. I do like in NYC though so perhaps I'm in a bubble, as far as that's concerned. We actually have trans people around us, and can see and appreciate their humanity, day to day. I don't know how much of it on here is trolling and how much is genuine -- I feel as if it started out with trolling but insinuated itself into reality, after some time. The internet has become weaponized.

Progressive left still.

OP is a MAGAt troll pretending to be otherwise.

R1 here.

Just to add a bit of nuance to my (yes, very long) post: I answered the question of my political views.

My personal views are more nuanced.

I also view drag shows as bawdy adult clownery and I certainly would not bring my children if I had children to a drag show. There are lots of things like this that various people do—bringing kids to bars, letting them drink alcohol at a young age, showing them R-rated movies—that I do not personally agree with. It is most notable to me that none of these behaviors has sparked a backlash against any parents, straight or gay, who do such things. They are personal choices. If you use your judgments about parents who do this as substantiation for bigotry, then you are looking for an excuse for bigotry.

The idea of drag shows as OP describes, which are adult-oriented events, is NOT the same as a drag queen invited to a library to read books to children. When this happens, the drag queen is effectively a clown for children, a colorful, whimsical adult reading books. These drag queens are not bearing breasts and making dick jokes. Yet the Republican party has conflated drag shows and innocent library events for the purpose of suggesting that drag queens are sexual predators. Which is false. And by extension, this suggests to those who want to believe it that gay men who dress in drag, and all gay men by extension are sexual predators. Which is false.

And then we should all recognize that straight bigots will not draw a distinction between drag queens and transgenderism.

So with their hateful rhetoric, they suggest drag queens are preying on children while they say that transgenderism is child abuse, and this is building a new (old but recycled) foundation to arouse hatred toward all gay and transgender people.

The gay men I see on Data Lounge who buy into this make me sad and angry. There's nothing I can do about it, though, is there? Reason doesn't work with bigots, and bigots come in all colors of the rainbow.

[quote]Can someone please tell me where we Gays stand politically now?

You're kidding, aren't you?

Someone on here once called me faux naif, which made me laugh (& wasn't true) but I think you're being faux naif, OP.

"Can someone please tell me what my tribe believes so I can believe that, too?"

Bravo, R1!

R5 Yeah the whole “just asking questions” thing is a potential red flag. And usually veers into “bothsides-ism”as in this case. Usually followed by “how dare you assume I’m [whatever] politically!?! In fact I’m [opposing viewpoint to what you inferred].”

Megyn Kelly "just announced" she will refuse to use preferred pronouns from now on!

Don't be Megyn Kelly.

The only reason to do this is to explicitly disrespect someone who has asked to be respected. Contrary to Republicans' lamentations, even they are not too stupid to adapt their language on occasion. We do it all the time for other purposes without even thinking about it.

That is what kills me about all of this pushback when it's done by gay people. It's not hard at all, it is no hardship at all, to hear a person, to respect them for who they say they are, and to treat them how you want to be treated. Almost all of us know exactly how it feels to be targeted and disrespected because of our identities. That any gay person chooses to do this simply because they are an asshole is deeply saddening to me.

Transgender people having surgery or not, taking hormones or not, shitting in a men's room or women's room, and parents who respect their children's assertions and take them to psychiatrists who likewise assert they are transgender—none of it affects your life or my life IN ANY WAY AT ALL. If you disagree with it, fine. That's no one's business, and it's not your business to rally hatred, participate in hatred, treat people cruelly or support legislation to harm people because your opinion is that they are not living how you want to live.

All of that is a choice to hate and to harm.

Why anyone does it is really beyond my comprehension. It's so fucking vicious and cruel, and for no reason.

Don't be Megyn Kelly.

If you are inclined to announce that you reject people's preferred pronouns or to support a Republican candidate who says drag queens and trannies abuse children, you are simply choosing to hate people based on information you know full well is false and has not one fucking thing to do with you anyway.

“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”

LBJ's quote aptly describes opportunistic jingoists/slime buckets like Ron DeSantis: If you can convince the lowest schmuck of any race and convince him/her he's better than perverts like drag queens, trannies and fags, he won't notice you picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on and he'll empty his pockets for you.

R12 And you see it working so effectively throughout the pages of this website.

It's taught me that I used to have gay-supremacist ideology because I'm really stunned gay people are so fucking stupid as to bite the bait and the hook for an opportunity to hate a smaller minority of people, to do to others what we had to fight to overcome. And if they get their way and fully demonize transgender people by law, we are all next.

R1:

“ People are foolish and more easily manipulated than I can believe much of the time. And particularly older people who have life experience. I cannot believe how easily people are coerced to reject the values they have always purported to have because of wedge issues selected by political strategists, but it always works.”

I’m reading this in the context of lesbians holding their ground and having their livelihoods destroyed as a result by people/sheep who’ve been easily swayed by TikTok and very wealthy white men in dresses.

I’m gay and a public school teacher. I have never been okay with what is happening with the gender push in elementary school. (It’s almost zealotry where I am.) I’m not okay with trans women in women’s sports or women’s prisons. I hate how dogmatic the current movement is and how punishing it is to dissenters. This last point is key for me.

Politically? I am alienated by both the left and the right. I am searching for an alternative.

log cabin rethugs are a new thing, op.

[quote]log cabin rethugs are a new thing, op.

They've been around since the early '80s.

"Can somebody out there please confirm my hatred of trans people?"

"Done, R17!"

I don't think the angst against trans amongst the gay community initiated from the right. From what I remember on here it initiated by how over zealous and aggressive the trans community was in shutting down any discussion that went against what they had to say as hate speech. I think it was their desire to shut down any kind of counter communication or questioning that gave people pause - as in being instantly cancelled because you said the wrong thing. That was way before the right got a hold of it and started using trans as a weaponizing device. I don't thing they would have ever even been on the right's radar if they were so militant about their acceptance at first.

If you don't stand with trans people, you're next. SOME republicans may accept you if you put an R after your name. Just don't go out in public with your SO.

Do you want to live that way?

OP, maybe think for yourself and realize that gays aren’t snd shouldn’t be a monolith even though the segment of radical Maoist gays demand that we all be on the same page or else.

We remain on the Left. Whatever we think about trans rights activists (who do tend to suck) or radical feminists or extremist Maoists (really? we're going with the Maoist threat?), the Right is returning to its wingnut roots. One God, One Faith, One Law. One King? Well, we'll see. There is no place for out, unashamed gay people on the Right, longterm. You can cringe in a closet or carry a big cross about your terrible shameful gayness on the Right, but you can't simply be gay.

Whatever arguments we have will be waged on the left and the overall liberal side of the spectrum.

[quote]I don't think the angst against trans amongst the gay community initiated from the right

Blaming the victim, OP? It isn't *angst*, it's *hate*.

There’s overwhelming arrested development in the gay community and leftism in general, but more so the gay community. It probably started from gays having to live in gay ghettos where there really wasn’t anyone else to turn to and in order to survive people had to be in agreement to fight back. Unfortunately, gays have become extremists against other gays who have their own opinions. Since things have gotten significantly better for gays to the point of us being deemed ordinary and boring (we might as well be straight), there’s a bit of “I’m oppressed” cosplay going on. It gives people a sense of community. You since this in feminism and even sexual abuse “survivors”. It becomes a grievance committee. It’s not your own failings, it’s the man out to get you.

Jumping on the bandwagon for social causes provides social currency. Everyone wants to play the morality police. We have gays that are so uptight about sex, preferences, and consent to the point of hysteria and then turn around and scream that you’re kink-shaming them if you question what someone is into sexually. It’s all about controlling people.

R20 is the perfect example of this blind acceptance of all trans positions.

You can be a progressive Democrat and not support everything the trans community wants to impose on the world.

No, trans women should not compete with biological women in sports. No, men do not give birth. No, two street drag queens did NOT start the gay rights movement and they were NOT responsible for everything that happened. No trans groups should not jump to the front of the line and expect to take up a disproportionate share of LGBT resources and attention.

But any critical discourse about these batshit crazy positions is considered hate speech. I've never seen anything like it.

R22, the left has become the new Moral Majority. This truly is a both sides are bad situation. People are nuts on both sides of the isle over this shit. The trans movement lacks logic. It’s full of gaslighting and groupthink. They went from gender is a man made construct to now sexually being a man made construct. Sorry, but no. The side that screams “believe the science” doesn’t even believe in biology. It’s hard to take seriously. Now we have women getting their faces bashed in by biological males in wrestling. Anyone who knows anything about the incel community knows what’s going on with the MTF lunatics who are now calling themselves lesbians with dicks and the left tells real lesbians that they needs to accept that.

The Left now.

The Left today.

The vast majority of gays don't live in gay ghettos and never have. Gay people outside of a very few neighborhoods in a few cities have not grown up or lived isolated from other communities. Most know other communities, including deeply homophobic communities, up close and personal. Gay people did not invent homophobia in some hothouse atmosphere where we somehow imagined it into being. Most of us have experienced it growing up, some of us brutally, some of us more politely, but all of us to some extent.

And the Right still retains its essentially homophobic outlook, that gay people are in fact a problem in some way. The problem being that the Bible doesn't allow us to be who we are (or at least the traditional understanding of the Bible. That's a whole other thing in itself, but still.) Whatever your problems with the Left, you are in it if you are out and proud. You will not be happy with any actual right-wing government, and you are not in some halfway house that can be totally neutral either.

[quote]You can be a progressive Democrat and not support everything the trans community wants to impose on the world.

When Christian nationalists are hauling your gay ass into reeducation camps make sure to tell them how much you hate trans people. I'm sure it'll help.

I honestly don't get why there's been such a push on the left to have drag queens read to children. I guess the idea is to make drag queens seem more family-friendly and thus less threatening, but at some level the entire point of drag queens is to be anti-family and to feel dangerous (since their humor is usually bitchy and scary). I preferred it when they were for adults only.

OP here. I do think for myself. I guess the real question then is how many people think like me.

The trans message to me is not a clear one. We use the word trans in such a broad sense - but does that mean transsexual or transgender, those are two different conversations. Not all transgender people are transsexual.

And I am of the opinion that you can identify by whichever gender you like, because gender is a societal construct and is fluid and roles changes over generations. But sex is not fluid, sex doesn't change. There are males and females. At this point in the human story, in science, you cannot change your sex. Males cannot become females and females cannot become males. You can alter your body to appear as one or the other but that is not the same.

Which brings me to something else I am put off with with the trans movement. For a movement that embraces fluidity and non-binary terms and ways of being, why would you alter your body to REINFORCE societal constructs of gender - a woman (not female) must have breasts, a man (not male) must have a penis and cannot have breasts. It seems the argument you would be fighting for is that some Women are born Male and some Men are born Female, without having to alter your body or way of dress to reinforce gender roles just so you can fit into society. Push society to accept you where you are, not conform to their ideals.

And in the end, all of this is making it that much harder for my gay community to hold on to the rights we have patiently fought so hard for and didn't just try to shove down a society's throat.

And why do drag queen's want to read to children? What is the point other than them being told they can't, to want to read to children? I cannot imagine anything more boring. Drag was born as a very adult, counter-cultural expression of the gay experience - something that would be nice to keep just for us, something we don't have to have accepted by the world. I wouldn't take my kid to a drag queen book reading just as I wouldn't take my kid to a strip pole exercise class even it was set to Baby Shark. Not everything has to be made palatable for kids JUST for acceptance.

^ R31, I couldn't agree with you more.

R30 - and right on cue - threats and insults. Y'know what's fueling the Christian nationalists and making them seem reasonable? The utter baseless and bullshit arguments by the trans community.

You win people over by reasoned logical arguments - not by 'because I said so and if you disagree, you're a right wing Republican asshole who needs to shut up'.

They've used our compassion as a weapon against us. But people like you read the same posts about logical and sensible disagreements with the trans positions and you can't argue against it, so you resort to attacks.

No one is saying trans people don't exist or don't deserve respect or rights - but that's how people like you always twist things around if you don't accept every damn word that is said and don't push trans people to the front of the line.

[quote]but at some level the entire point of drag queens is to be anti-family and to feel dangerous (since their humor is usually bitchy and scary). I preferred it when they were for adults only.

Adults only drag still exists, as you know, r31.

Of course it exists R35. The question is why does it have to be Family Friendly at all? For what point, what purpose? Even something with as broad of an appeal as Rupaul's drag race, in the end, is still very adult - The tagline is "Don't Fuck It Up." And we love it that way.

I was never under any belief that the world suddenly changed and everyone loved us. I think a lot of what we see is people who believed the polls and who believe that we've been embraced are looking for ways to blame trans people for the recent setbacks. I say this often on here, tolerating us is not accepting us. Your Mom and Dad and family love you, but they still wish that you weren't gay. That's not the fault of trans people, blame your fucking Bible. Stop scapegoating trans people.

And, full disclosure, I am an imperfect ally of trans people. I believe adult trans people should be able to live their lives free from discrimination and hate. But I have issues with an agenda that seems to prey on biological women, and that has nothing to do with bathrooms or dressing rooms. I have issues with trans women in sports and language like assigned at birth or humans with ovaries. I have issues trans kids. I thought sissies and tom boys were just fine, until they figured their own shit out when they got older. I do not believe that gender is a social construct. And I believe that trans issues are not the same as the issues of gay men and women.

And some of my above beliefs will probably put me on the wrong side of history, but I've made peace with that. But what I will never be is unkind to anyone who believes they are struggling with their gender or sexuality or whatever, even if I don't agree.

R1 perfectly said. I will never understand how someone who has experienced discrimination the way gays (or women, people of color) can add to hate. Actually, I understand it, joining in on hate makes one feel like they are part of the group in power, it’s just like people who befriend the bully on the playground, if you are friends with the bully then you won’t get bullied; but that’s not how it works. If gays turn on trans or women then they get to stand with straight white men.

When I was a child watching the news and there was a proposal to take the vote from gays, probably very early 80’s my father explained to me it was because gay people were mentally ill and of course you didn’t want those people making decisions about elections. When my mother lamented that the equal rights amendment had failed, it was because gays had joined in and that was a step too far and it ruined it for everyone. My parents are still faithfully voting republicans/magas.

It just makes me sad. I wish everyone could see this pattern and stand up against it. But ultimately some people will always decide to step over others to benefit themselves, be it take positions to give themselves more power, more money, more whatever. All I can do is keep doing the right thing and recognize that any position that is centered on hate or telling people who they should be, should feel, should think is wrong.

[quote]But I have issues with an agenda that seems to prey on biological women, and that has nothing to do with bathrooms or dressing rooms. I have issues with trans women in sports and language like assigned at birth or humans with ovaries. I have issues trans kids. I thought sissies and tom boys were just fine, until they figured their own shit out when they got older. I do not believe that gender is a social construct. And I believe that trans issues are not the same as the issues of gay men and women.

That's pretty anti-trans R37. Even I believe Gender is a construct, and it is. Let me as you something, do you think that kids should be able to receive breast-binders, materials about transitioning or even hormones without their parents knowing? If you think this should be denied then you WOULD be considered as someone "unkind to anyone who believes they are struggling with their gender or sexuality "

R12 holy shit, I’ve never heard that quote but wow is that spot on.

Gay people are by their nature heterodox, and will continue to be. There are some, like people who choose to move to and to live in “gay ghettoes”, who desperately crave a sense of belonging and will do everything to conform to those around them, including adopting and espousing the orthodox political views of that community.

Those outside the bubble are free to be their heterodox selves politically and will not mindlessly accept the views assigned to them to believe. They will look at every issue and make up their own mind for what makes sense to them to believe. Above all else, they can’t truthfully be pigeonholed into any particular political box, since they are likely to have various views from multiple spots on the political spectrum. We definitely see that on DL.

I stand for the same rights for all people all colors, all genders, all sexualities without exception. I have no right or reason to define who other people are. That is their right.

[quote] If gays turn on trans or women then they get to stand with straight white men.

This is the problem. It is not gays "turning on trans or women." It's some trans rights activists coming up against some women's rights activists and having a real argument, a real dilemma, and some other people pretending that there are no dilemmas because all rights are completely in accord with all other rights.

Should that transwoman with a dick be wandering around that locker room with those other women? Should that transwoman with a dick be sentenced to a women's prison knowing she'll probably just rape again? These are dilemmas despite the fact that hunky dory, no problem activists want to wish them all away, or more often, lie about their existence.

R38, It isn't hate for just hate sake. It never has been. The frustration came from the black community when it felt gays were piggybacking of their movement and calling it one in the same - feeling like it was setting them back in their acceptance. Just as the gay community now feels the trans movement is piggybacking off of them to gain exposure and we feel it is setting us back. We know it's not one and the same. But the rest of the world that we are fighting for our own personal rights from, do not. And I believe the trans movement went about it in SUCH an aggressive way that put a lot of people off, that we have all fallen back several steps - to the point that legislation we had on the books is now very much in question.

I'm re-posting this from the other thread:

[quote]At that event, children start the hour with a celebratory catwalk filled with affirmations and an uplifting “yass queen.” South Philly resident Mishana Klein has been taking her 7-year-old daughter to the story time since it first started five years ago. When her daughter first attended she “used to be really self-conscious…and now she’s so confident when she struts along with Maria Topcatt,” Klein said.

[quote]At a recent relaxed performance of Alice, for folks with sensory sensitivities, Clementon resident and parent Jill Cox watched along with her 10-year-old son. She said that during the car ride back home, he exclaimed that the Cheshire Cat “is different like me. I can be different too."

[quote]With the increase in drag performers’ youth engagement programming, there has also been an uptick in a targeted anti-LGBTQ+ pushback. Every year, People’s Light invites schools to their annual panto production. This year, five schools and one school district have declined the invitation in response to parental concerns around the theater’s masking policy and Jaffe’s role as a drag performer. Concerns over the panto being inappropriate for children were first expressed on a Facebook page titled “Uncanceled,” which discusses “news and hot topics covering all of Chester County.” The performance has been likened to “abuse,” and been called a “perversion.”

[quote]In an effort to address the misinformation, People’s Light emphasized in their invitations that Jaffe’s performance is family-friendly. The letter states that pantos typically have a guide — in this case Jaffe — who are “surprising, gender-playful and wildly extravagant creations” that can “be enjoyed by audiences of all ages.” Although Alice is sold out until Jan. 1, when the panto’s run ends, group sales from school visits decreased, leading to a $25,000 loss in ticket income.

[quote]But the parental concerns soon morphed into violent threats from outside of the region. “Libs of TikTok,” a far-right twitter account that spreads misinformation, later retweeted those threats, which begat more violent rhetoric in the comments. People’s Light notified the Whiteland Police Department, the Pennsylvania District Attorney’s Office, and Governor Tom Wolf’s office.

[quote]People’s Light first learned of the online attacks because a parent sent them screenshots as a heads up. After the Andorra Free Library location received hateful comments against their DQST event in June, a counter-protest emerged from that same Facebook page.

[quote]That same month, protestors disrupted Morrison’s story time events at Cherry Hill Public Library in June. The protestors were part of a church from out of town, “and they all came in one tiny little bus…trying to make a lot of noise and Cherry Hill was not having it,” he said.

I have always been surprised by people who are surprised by the bigotry and hate in the white gay community. I get it 100%. Here you have White men, with usually a good education, intelligence and looks who would be on the absolute TOP of the food chain in America if it weren't for that pesky gayness. What isn't there to get about the frustration this might cause?

Perversion???

[quote]sensory sensitivities ?

The last thing these poor kids need then is a full on glitter beat and triple G cannons coming at them at 9AM!

I sure could have used it, r48. I've never been a morning person.

R44, if trannies have a reasonable grievance, there wouldn’t be a problem. They simply don’t. They want special rights at the expense of others. They’re mentally ill and can’t deal with reality. Hacking up your body, taking tumor causing drugs, pushing it also into youth, putting women in danger, demanding that languages be changed, etc, is not the same as homosexuality. We accept that we fuck the same sex, end of story. That’s reality. We don’t live in a fantasy where fucking the same sex is going to magically lead to pregnancy. Our rights don’t come at the expense of others. We’re not forcing churches to marry us. Trannies would. They threaten suicide the minute they don’t get their way. This isn’t normal behavior. It’s a freak show. They’re a fringe community. There are a lot of those.

There are actually two separate issues here with the trans: one is the right for trans people to have the same legal protections as everyone else, and the other is trans people getting up in everyone’s faces with trans kids, men in women’s sports, etc. The reason that I find the second part so odd is that this would never be accepted with gays. If a gay man told a child that the child was gay the parents would be enraged, so why is it okay to declare a 5 year old transgender? For me as a gay man, the same rule applies to us gays as it does to transgender people: we have the right to live our lives but it is absolutely inappropriate for us to tell a child what they are.

The nonbinary issue is just silly. This is nothing more than people wanting to feel special, and no one should give this a second thought. You can’t be 10 different genders at once, no matter what a narcissistic millennial with a history of drug problems might tell you.

R34 [quote]You win people over by reasoned logical arguments - not by 'because I said so and if you disagree, you're a right wing Republican asshole who needs to shut up'.

Exactly. This is not helping.

OP, you're probably a trill or a political propagandist but I'll answer anway. I'm definitely still exactly what I've been for decades - progressive left. The fucking morons who think they're going to survive on the extremist right are fools and/or trolls. You want to join those fascists now because you don't like the Trans or pretend to be against them for political gain. I have no respect for you.

Side with Rhonda Santis, Trump, MTG and the rest of those Nazi-wannabe cunts, you can fuck off and die sooner rather than later. Trans people get to be who the are, full stop.

[quote]But now the left is more centred on gender politics and things I don't necessarily agree with or care about and it is becoming increasingly hard to defend. Do I really care if Drag Queens read to children?

OP - thank you so very much for illustrating how well rethug tactics of wedge issues work to undermine their opposition.

Who cares about taxes, jobs, education, healthcare, social programs, retirement, climate change, reproductive rights, and a laundry list of other real issues when the rethugs keep screaming about "gender politics."

Sure, you might argue that it's the drag queens or Ts or whomever else falls into your rubric of "gender politics" that are making gender politics a big deal. However, that's blaming the victim. If the rethugs didn't relentless go after drag queen or the Ts, there wouldn't be a there there. And make no mistake, "gender politics" will inevitably revert back to targeting gay people and gay rights once the herd is thinned and the weakest are taken down.

Amen and thank you, r53.

[quote]The question is why does it have to be Family Friendly at all?

Why not?

[quote]OP, you're probably a trill or a political propagandist but I'll answer anway. I'm definitely still exactly what I've been for decades - progressive left. The fucking morons who think they're going to survive on the extremist right are fools and/or trolls. You want to join those fascists now because you don't like the Trans or pretend to be against them for political gain. I have no respect for you.

See that is the problem R52. Intelligent people were able to disagree without have to go wholesale one way or the other. No one is embracing the other side JUST because they don't agree with everything on the other. That is what I cannot stand about the current state of American politics now. You are labeled as a propagandist and told to Fuck Off over a simple honest question.

[quote]it's the drag queens or Ts or whomever else falls into your rubric

Oh, dear!

^ the "who v. whom" protectorate

I will say one thing. If you think the problem is just trans and if that “problem” goes away (it won’t) everything will be fine, you’re deluding yourself. Trans is just the way in, low hanging fruit on the way to eliminating everything deemed not white and Christian and male heterosexual.

This is just the beginning.

"You win people over by reasoned, logical arguments."

Do honestly think that Donald J. Trump, his Trumpards and MAGAts, Ron DeSantis and all right wing nut jobs are interested in "reasoned, logical arguments." You can honestly say that with a straight face? Seriously?

These are the same people who are absolutely positive there's a Deep State that is trying to deny both Trump ans DeSantis their rightful places on the throne. These are the same people who think the 2020 election was rigged and stolen from Trump despite not a single shred of evidence and despite every court in the land, including Trump's handpicked SCOTUS judges, find any such evidence?

And then when Trump didn' t get his way, he organized an armed rebellion where the participants thought it would be great fun to shit all over the inside of the Capitol Building and murder anyone they could. Do you honestly think these people were going to listen to your reasoned, logical arguments?

Last I looked, there were 70 million fanatics who agree with Trump and DeSantis. And we're supposed to use reasoned, logical arguments with these people, and you're gullible/stupid/naive to think you can? GTFOH.

R59, no that is not what we think. What we think is the aggressiveness of making trans normal and acceptable will force the undecided over the 70 million to say enough is enough to give that hell hole side the majority.

"I'm as liberal a Democrat as they come, but I can't stand how gay people try to indoctrinate people into their gay shit. They're mentally disturbed and need help."

See how the rhetoric works?

If you think you're a "liberal" "Democrat" and you refuse to support rights for "those people", you're not a Liberal Democrat.

You're a Good German.

R59 so you're equating MAGAs and the illogical arguments of trans activists? Then yes, I agree with you. Neither wants to listen to facts or reason.

OP is a total troll. And the "both-siderism" here is off the charts. First of all, the vast majority of left-wing politicians do not advocate for trans people or drag queens. What they ADVOCATE for is freedom and human rights. What a concept. Gay people have benefitted from that advocacy. Please show me the LONG list of right wingers who supported gay marriage or the elimination of sodomy laws. And the judges that the left wing presidents appointed have also been advocates for freedom and human rights. As opposed to, say the vast majority of judges appointed by Trump and Bush. Moreover, these divisive issues are not brought up by left-wing politicians. They are brought up by right-wing politicians. And several posters above have nailed it. They do that to distract from their agenda, which is highly unpopular. Destroying science-based regulation on the environment, destroying public education, continuing to undermine worker's rights in favor of additional tax breaks and government financial support of wealthy corporations and multi-billionaires. Opposing any sort of equalizing the playing field for the disadvantaged . Elimination of rights of bodily autonomy for women. Making the mentally ill and physically or developmentally challenged find work or lose food stamp eligibility. And the list of unpopular and destructive policies goes ON AND ON.

This thread is perfect example of trolling 101 - and I quote:

"Trolls are everywhere, from small chat forums to Twitter and Instagram. They love to cause chaos between groups, inciting hate and posting controversial comments to provoke people and drag them into an argument for argument’s sake. Trolls rarely get angry themselves, and once they’ve successfully aggravated everyone, they disappear as quickly as they appeared.

Here’s where you might encounter a troll:

Anonymous online forums: Trolls love anonymous forums like Reddit, 4chan, Twitch, and Quora, as they can post anything they like without anyone tracking them down. While some forums enforce a strict code of conduct, most aren’t moderated regularly, which means that trolls rarely face any repercussions."

[quote] I honestly don't get why there's been such a push on the left to have drag queens read to children. I guess the idea is to make drag queens seem more family-friendly and thus less threatening, but at some level the entire point of drag queens is to be anti-family and to feel dangerous (since their humor is usually bitchy and scary). I preferred it when they were for adults only.

There isn't a push on the left for drag queens to read to children.

Think about what you wrote. It's insane.

RuPaul's Drag Race is a TV hit that has transcended TV. Young women and girls *and* men and boys paint on makeup inspired by TV drag queens, who of course nowadays move immediately from TV to social media and become celebrities.

Every generation has its own slang. Almost all of the Gen Z slang is taken directly from RuPaul's Drag Race. It really is. It actually is.

The TV show is 100% mainstream among young people. Many of them grew up watching the show as children. And many people are raising their children watching Drag Race as family entertainment.

That one series is pervasive in our culture. And it is not only gay.

People—most likely women who are mothers and fans of the TV show—somehow began doing little gatherings of drag queens reading books to kids. My guess is that someone's gay uncle did it and it was received enthusiastically because drag queens are basically clowns.

Then libraries began booking drag queens to do these readings because bringjng a drag queen to a library makes the library a cool place and brings in the community. It's a win-win for everyone.

There never has been "a movement on the left to have drag queens read to kids."

That is batshit crazy.

That is a Republican scare tactic.

There is an organic cultural integration of drag queens as fun, harmless entertainment among people who watch a fucking feel-good reality show and that is all it is.

You are drinking the GOP Kool-Aid.

I cannot believe how gullible people are. Jesus fucking Christ.

Let's be real. You can, of course, have disagreements with the current LBTQ+ movement and its focus on advancement of trans people and on gender-related issues. You can have concerns about gender-affirming care, if you want.

But if those concerns cause you to vote for Republicans or support right-wing ballot measures or devotedly watch Fox and News Max... let's be real... you were never liberal or progressive to begin with.

Just own who you are. You can still like dick and be a conservative asshole.

R63 I am not a troll. I have been coming to Datalounge for close to 20 years now. I have started threads, commented on several treads and received several WW. I am not trolling for responses either. I am just being honest about something that I have been questioning myself in the current political climate. I am not excited about my divergence of opinion from the left. In mixed company I would probably defend every aspect of it just because I am aware of the biases of the audience I am with. But here on Datalounge, where we are of a similar community, I wanted to bring up this question to see if there were other like minds like me. And it is interesting to note there is indeed a growing dissatisfaction with how the success of the gay movement is being used now to champion other ideas that a lot of us are not OK with. This is the first time I have ever felt like this and I was curious to know if I was the only one and I wanted to know which the way the wind is blowing.

Gen Z slang words. Wikipedia even includes "Bussy—Meaning "Boy Pussy". It is associated with Femboy culture."

This is completely mainstream language to this young generation and a huge amount of it is taken from drag.

No drag queen did anything to these people. They grew up watching Drag Race. That's all. The humor on the show is adult and it was their parents' choices to let them watch it, and they have integrated the language and they look up to drag queens as celebrity artists.

There is no left-wing movement to mainstream drag queens. It's a natural generational interest because of a TV show. It is no different than the MTV generation. This is the Drag Race generation. It's not predation. It's pop culture.

R61 - what a weak argument. You could also insert "Flat Earthers" or "Holocaust Deniers" into that sentence the same way but it doesn't make them persecuted or correct.

Again, this line of thinking is that no criticism is allowed and any dissent should be dismissed altogether.

These arguments can never be denied - trans women who have gone through puberty as a man have a physical advantage over biological women. Trans women do not have a functioning vagina and have to dilate themselves for the rest of their lives to keep the hole from closing. Men do not give birth and do not have periods.

Why is this so hard to understand? BE A TRANS PERSON. Be proud of it! But you are uniquely different. Trying to demand that you are something you are not is the basis of all the pushback.

Trans people have a different and unique life experience that they should own. But don't say you know what it's like to be someone or something else and try to own that as well. "I'm trans AND a woman". No, you're not BOTH.

The illogical fallacy only gives the right wingers points to say that liberals are crazy and out of touch, so nothing they say can be true. It's being used against us and it's working.

OP, being a long-time poster doesn't immunize you against the charge of trolling. How about listing some of the threads you've started in the past, so we can judge for ourselves about some of your past at DL?

R65, not the right totally disgusts me. I would never vote republican. But the thing that is upsetting me is seeing how the right is successfully using trans issues to rile up their base at the gay community's expense. They never liked us to begin with. But now they are able to use these over the top issues - Bud Light Controversies, to get logically thinking voters on their sides. The trans push gave way to "Don't Say Gay," in Florida. When has gay EVER been a real issue you could comment on in FL in the last two decades? Ron Desantis would have never dared if it weren't for the illogical push or pronouns, hormones for kids, breast binders in the school nurses office. Do I think kids should be getting breast binders in school? No. Now some male teacher cannot say he has a husband without potentially getting fired. Yes they didn't like us to begin with, but they didn't have a leg to stand on. Now they do.

The Trans-haters are like the Nazis.

See, the "problem" in Germany wasn't Nazis, heavens no! It was Jews and if the population just turned against the Jews, and the Homosexuals, and the Gypsies, and the Intellectuals and and and and.. then everything would be FINE. Some of you are the Gypsies or the Intellectuals yourselves, just throw the Jews to the wolves and then everyone will be safe! The Nazis aren't the problem, just give them the Jews!

You're stupid, really and truly deeply stupid. Or you're right wing propaganda trolls. Either way, fuck you. We're not going to be good Germans and throw the Trans to the wolves in a futile attempt to protect ourselves. We can never protect ourselves from the Nazis/Right-wing fucktards. They will get rid of the Trans and come for us next.

R71 - is here again to tell you that you're a NAZI if you don't agree with him/her. Stomping your feet and screaming Nazi is not a winning argument.

Proving our point time and time again. What don't you understand? It's not a black or white issue. No one on here has said that trans people shouldn't live with dignity and respect.

R71 - you truly sound stupid when you say these things and it doesn't persuade or convince anyone.

^ so now we are Nazis because we don't agree. Stereotypical.

Have any of you ever heard of "Kitchen Table Talk?" That Is what this is - stuff you say amongst family that you would say in a mixed crowd.

Does anyone actually believe you can change your sex from Male to Female? I am not asking about someone's RIGHT to think they can or attempt to do so. But do people actually believe you can change your SEX exist on Datalounge?

R74 No, it’s not possible. Is it their right to mutilate themselves? Yes. Are they really becoming the opposite sex? Of course not.

The "both sides" idiots like OP are an even bigger problem than actual Republicans

R73, Nazis pick on and scapegoat minorities

Jewish people made up 1% of Germany during the Third Reich

Trans people are .6% of the population

You wingnuts need to get a grip and stop picking on minorities

Gays are under attack, simple as that. As they said on the latest Bulwark podcast, anti-gay rhetoric is “the besting heart of the culture war.”

Partner and I are considering moving abroad.

They freak when we point out how similar to the Nazis the Trans-haters are but it's so obvious.

They're desperately trying to convince us that if we will just turn against the Trans, the right wing extremists won't come after us anymore. We know they're lying, I don't know why they think they could sell that bullshit on a gay men's website.

The right wing are coming for Trans, they're coming for Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals - ALL OF US. You won't appease them by throwing them the Trans and hoping they'll "forget" how much they hate all of us.

You're dumb. Really really fucking stupid - either than or you're trolls who think WE are really fucking stupid.

We're not turning on the Trans. Fuck off.

[quote]The illogical fallacy only gives the right wingers points to say that liberals are crazy and out of touch, so nothing they say can be true. It's being used against us and it's working.

Oh the irony, r68.

R77 - Nazis dehumanized Jews, gays, Eastern Europeans, etc.

Nobody is trying to dehumanize trans people or say they don't deserve respect or dignity. When has that been brought up?

False equivalency troll.

R79 - and nobody is throwing them the Trans. It's about being TRUTHFUL about biology and science.

What don't you understand about this? Again - you can't defend some of the trans positions, because if you could, you would be doing that and not name calling as a distraction to shut down a conversation.

And THAT'S the problem right there. Have you ever thought that maybe you were WRONG? That there is some grey in this and not all or nothing?

R71 is exactly right. This is a ploy straight out of the Josef Goebbels playnook: find a defenseless scapegoat and villify them to the extreme to get the majority to hate the intended minority. And gullible, unthinking morons like R72 fall for it each and every time by falling for their over exaggersted propaganda.

And R77's stats are correct. So how much social change do the Republicans think six tenths of one percent of the population, even at their shrillest, can affect?

[quote]But the thing that is upsetting me is seeing how the right is successfully using trans issues to rile up their base at the gay community's expense.

Talk about fallacies, r70. They're coming for us *in addition* to trans, you imbecile.

R82 - God you're dumb. EVERYONE knows the right wing playbook about picking on and demonizing minorities. That's like saying the sky is blue.

But the gays and lesbians who disagree with SOME of the trans positions are not gullible right-wingers.

The problem is that the right wing has a POINT - and they're exploiting it.

It's the INFLEXIBILITY of the trans activists that is fueling this. Why can't we agree that trans women do not belong in women's sports? Why do we have to say 'people who give birth' instead of women? Why does a man who simply identifies as a woman allowed into women's spaces without question?

I am moving more toward the center, and I know a lot of gay people are as well.

Most people in real life do not swallow trans activism hook, line, and sinker. Nor do most people take a BLM-style approach to politics of race or crime.

Most people are not R1.

When Trans people are attacking people who were allies for not accepting them wholesale and cancelling their careers, there is a problem.

I am not trying to appease the right by throwing Trans people under the bus. I just wish Trans people would calm the fuck down and not be so militant about everyone accepting the way THEY see the world. You are not going to change the world's politics in half a decade.

[quote][R79] - and nobody is throwing them the Trans. It's about being TRUTHFUL about biology and science.

No, r81, at this point it's about semantics. You can stomp your feet all you want and scream "I'm right! I'm right!" instead of just letting the pendulum settle which it will eventually do. Are radical trans activists coming to your door? Are they approaching you on the street? How are you encountering them? How are they negatively affecting your life? Please don't say that they give the Radical Right even more reason to hate us, because that doesn't fly.

Like why in the world is anyone making "Tuck Friends" underwear for kids? And why is Dylan Mulvaney a Budlight spokesperson? Has there ever even been a so blatantly gay Budlight Spokesperson? One day Gays will wake up and see the Trans agenda is to erase the idea of Gay.

[quote]I am not trying to appease the right by throwing Trans people under the bus. I just wish Trans people would calm the fuck down and not be so militant about everyone accepting the way THEY see the world.

You're the reason the word *generalize* was invented, r86. It's *very* obvious you don't know *any* trans people.

[quote] When Christian nationalists are hauling your gay ass into reeducation camps make sure to tell them how much you hate trans people. I'm sure it'll help.

And if I say “I love trans people” now, what will change with regard to the Christian nationalists’ plans? If I say “but I always said I loved trans people” to the Christian nationalists a few years from now when they’re hauling me to the gas chambers, what difference will it make?

What matters to me is what’s true. I’m not going to pretend to believe in every item on the trans activism platform just because I think it’ll sway the Christian nationalists somehow.

You’re not making any kind of persuasive argument.

[quote]One day Gays will wake up and see the Trans agenda is to erase the idea of Gay.

That's okay, r88, all gays are pedos.

They're NOT, R88.

That is false information that Fox News and the conservative hate media are disseminating and you just gave away your politics by saying that.

[quote] One day Gays will wake up and see the Trans agenda is to erase the idea of Gay.

Correct.

Trans is either straight men afflicted with autogynephilia, or it’s gay people afflicted with internalized homophobia and mental illness who in effect want to become ex-gays.

Gays are pro bombing brown people and letting the poor die, and pretty much everything else, except issues that are anti-gay sounding or anti-women and allegedly anti-racist

R89 is very obvious you don't know me. I grew up as a young adult in NYC going to every club imaginable, and worked in environments where my best friends where trans people. I am 100% sure that I have been around an involved with more trans people than you have. Because anyone who had would never assume what you've assumed.

[quote]And if I say “I love trans people” now, what will change with regard to the Christian nationalists’ plans?

Nothing, r90, just like their plans aren't changing with your non-acceptance of them. But you sure are helping them out by aligning with their irrational hatred.

R1 is maga trash.

At no point in human history have homosexuals in perceived, as or treated as “precious”

R1 does trolling a gay message board really make up for the fact that your mother prefers dog penis to human penis???

[quote]Don't be Megyn Kelly.

A truth for all times.

[quote] I just wish Trans people would calm the fuck down and not be so militant about everyone accepting the way THEY see the world.

[quote]and worked in environments where my best friends where trans people.

Sure, r95...

r88 see r92

Any other disinformation you'd like to share with the group?

This thread got gross. Obviously what the OP was aiming for but still sad.

r92, OP is r88. OP is also:

[quote]I just wish Trans people would calm the fuck down and not be so militant about everyone accepting the way THEY see the world.

[quote]and worked in environments where my best friends where trans people.

R93 is a Republican shill who sides with vocal homophobes. Guess what, right-wingers hate you, too

It's clear that gays are so very politically ignorant like most Americans

It's clear that you're a troll, r104. Thank you for your transparency.

0.6% of the population identifies as transgender.

Again, the unfounded bigotry is self-evident when you hear people rage that transgender people are going to erase gay people—10x as many people—or women, who are half of the world population. It's mental. It's a tiny and powerless minority population that is being very loud to try to force through advancements to make them closer to equal. Does no one recall ACT UP? Their entire mission was to make loud noise because gay people were never heard.

Preposterous is not even an adequate word to describe how impossible it would be for a tiny sliver of a huge population to wield such control.

Likewise, it's crazy to consider that gay people think trans people are going to wield that control in the overall population and erase gay people when trans people are the repeated targets of the vast-majority straight population.

There's no threat. You are just afraid of them because they are different.

[quote]closer to equal

What does ‘equal’ mean in this context?

We remain on the left but it’s also important to call out the ridiculousness that you see, so we’re not all looked at as a singular entity with all the same ideas. Yes trans issues are front and center now, so that’s the hot topic. Among all my gay male 30-something friends, the trans community has full support even if we disagree on some things occasionally. BUT (and it’s a big but) the consensus is that the NB movement is making a complete mockery of us and is just one big fad waiting to blow up in our faces. And from what I’ve heard from my trans friends, we’re not the only ones who think that. Realistically, the ones making us look ridiculous now are the gender-fluid/non-binary/different-gender-every-day crowd.

But, y'all, OP just wants to have a breakfast nook conversation! You know, like you have with your family? The real shit!

He's NOT a troll who started the thread acting all confused and quickly started posting negative, hateful things about trans, did he?

HE DID.

Just because they make up a tiny (but, growing steadily) percentage of the population does not mean they don’t wield (and disproportionate amount of) power, nor does it mean that some of them aren’t dangerous, nor does it mean that the ideology around trans people (which the most vocal among them espouse) isn’t spreading like a mind virus throughout the Western world and harming gay and autistic kids (and it is).

A tiny percentage of people are murderers. It doesn’t mean murderers aren’t dangerous just because most people aren’t murderers.

I am not suggesting that trans people are murderers. Some of them are, of course. But most aren’t.

You’re framing it as the next civil rights issue (akin to the gay rights movement), but it isn’t nearly so benign. What’s being attempted is the depathologization of a pathology. Not a neutral proposition at all.

r110

[quote]Among all my gay male 30-something friends, the trans community has full support even if we disagree on some things occasionally

In my group of late 30s—early 50s friends, most of us are extremely skeptical of all things trans.

What do you mean by ‘full support’? There are a number of proposals coming from trans activists and they are not all the same; they don’t even affect the same groups of people.

Funny, R110, that's the same analogy the Religious Right was using when the AMA was attempting to reclassify being gay as not a mental illness: the depathologization of a pathology.

Funny, R113, I’ve NEVER heard that comparison before.

And I still don’t care.

They could reclassify homosexuality as a mental illness and it still wouldn’t change the fact that debilitating gender dysphoria is a mental illness. I mean, what else could it be? Do you not think it’s a mental illness? If it isn’t, then what is it? Tell me what you think it is. Be as specific as you can be.

r112 r114 r115

If you’re so curious about my replies, why don’t you just unblock me, R116?

Unless you're a psychiatrist or some other mental health professional, R115, you have no god damned business making armchair diagnoses of people of whom you have no knowledge of their backround or life experiences. And then based on your pseudo snap diagnosis you and your religious freak allies want to take away the civil and human rights of these people of whom you do not approve.

You'rs an asshole. I mean, what else could it be. After all you are a self appointed on-line expert? Who am I to have the audacity of questioning the knowledge and wisdom of your basic, garden variety internet troll.

I've always been a liberal Democrat. I care deeply about the environment, the economy, education, health care, and reproductive rights. I'm angry that the Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade. I'm still angry that Republicans fought to repeal Obamacare. I'm angry that Republicans have rolled back environmental protections, and I'm glad that Biden had the US rejoin the Paris climate agreement. I'm impressed that under President Biden, millions of new jobs have been created, child poverty has been cut in half, and a massive infrastructure bill was passed.

But when I read that Target included some trans clothing in their Pride display, that changed everything for me. I rarely shop at Target, and I haven't actually seen any of the merchandise, but I am outraged. I'm also deeply disturbed by the thought of drag queens reading books to children, even though I've never actually attended a drag show. I don't drink Bud Light, and I had never heard of Dylan Mulvaney before, but I am outraged that Bud Light would use Mulvaney in its ads.

Needless to say, for the first time in my life, I will be voting straight-ticket Republican in 2024.

[quote] But any critical discourse about these batshit crazy positions is considered hate speech. I've never seen anything like it.

Usually because it's conveyed with hate and hostility. As a civilization we lack empathy, even those of us in marginalized groups that are unfairly despised and demonised by the majority culture.

Everything about R119's post illustrates everything said at R1

I thought R119 was an obvious parody post, no?

I mean, come on, R119 taken at face value is fucking insane.

R119 doesn't exist.

That’s funny, R119, because although I disagree with the Democratic Party’s official stance on all things trans, I will still be voting straight-ticket for them next year.

That’s funny, R119, because although I disagree with the Democratic Party’s official stance on all things trans, I will still be voting straight-ticket for them next year.

R118, you realize you didn’t respond to anything I said but just made an ad hominem.

I’m not talking about any trans individual, so I’m not “diagnosing” anyone. I’m asking you what you think having a cross-sex “gender identity” is if not a mental illness or disorder. Is it really the case that you don’t know? Or that it’s different for everyone? What is your best understanding of what ‘trans’ is?

Long years ago, back in the olden days, we had a thing called "Bloc voting." It was the ethnic vote, like Italians, Irish, Polish, etc. and the union members and their families, and later, Black people, etc. Bloc voting started out in immigrant neighborhoods where people neither understood the language or the politics and they voted the way they were told, by some trusted leader or someone who sent them turkeys at Christmas time. Someone who got their sons into college or got their husbands and fathers jobs. But that practice has largely faded. No group, not Ethnics groups or Women or Black people or Gays are a monolith that votes in a bloc. And more is the pity because right now today, as we watch one party regressing to the days before the Civil War, there is a need for Bloc voting to support the PArty that supports our interests, as imperfect as they are.

Here is another thread started by the troll OP:

[quote] I left the United States and Moved to Italy. After 2020, I had had enough. Feel free to ask me any questions. I have many thoughts about my decision - a lot of which I am still processing.

[quote]he consensus is that the NB movement is making a complete mockery of us and is just one big fad waiting to blow up in our faces.

It *is* a fad, r108, and a harmless one. It's merely a (youthful) revolt against being put in a box by our society. When the dust settles, people are going to like/love/lust for who they're going to. It all should just garner an eye roll a "whatever" and acceptance (even if grudgingly). We have MUCH BIGGER issues we have to deal with. This isn't even an issuette.

R124 r125 r126

[quote]I’m asking you what you think having a cross-sex “gender identity” is if not a mental illness or disorder.

What is gay, r126? It isn't the norm.

R126, you strategically avoided telling us what your credentials were in the mental health and psychiatric fields and how you were entitled to make broad, sweeping generalizations about certain peoples mental health, whether or not you're speaking in generalities or on a case by case basis. I then "attacked" you because you're a pompous, gassy, bloviating windbag when your sole experience consists of reading an article in Psychology Today or reading the post on an equally gassy, self proclaimed internet "expert."

I freely admit to not knowing a lot about mental health or mental illness, but unlike your arrogant self, freely admit my lack of education and training in mental health, while you continuously pull pseudo sciece out your prolapsed asshole and expext everyone here to bow down to your unrivaled brain power and thought processes, be that as they may be.

More impotantly I'm not spewing armchair pseudo sciece as a basis for denying a whole subset of people their civil and human rights.

R132 - here we go again - 'denying a whole subset of people their civil and human rights'. WHO the fuck is advocating that in this thread?

You're making every criticism of trans into a 'they hate trans' - and that simply isn't true.

This is the problem - the overreaching, dramatic, teenager rages and tantrums about the trans issues.

R133

[quote]Needless to say, for the first time in my life, I will be voting straight-ticket Republican in 2024.

Oh, Yevgeny. Russians don't get to vote in US elections.

Lol, r135. How stupid do they think we are?

[quote]Now gay people hate transgender people.

Naturally, THIS IS NOT TRUE, and never was! Nobody hates anyone, but refusal to drink the Gender Identity movement's Kool-Aid and their attacks on gay, lesbians, women and children is conveniently labeled "hate" by those pushing the trans agenda which has never had anything to do with gays and lesbians other than "transing" gay children (children who will grow up to be gay if left alone).

Consider that many people supposedly supporting the trans movement have a huge anti-gay agenda and pretend that somehow gays are the problem.

Be wary of them.

And there goes R133 moving the goal posts yet again.

And again, using that hoary old cliche "I can't be anti-trans because some of my best friends are trannies.

JFC, talk about a total lack of self awareness.

[quote]More impotantly I'm not spewing armchair pseudo sciece as a basis for denying a whole subset of people their civil and human rights.

What are you calling ‘pseudoscience’ exactly, and how do you know it’s definitely pseudoscience?

No one here is denying, or has the power to deny “a whole subset of people their civil and human rights.” Which particular rights, by the way?

I still don’t understand why you won’t offer ANYthing in the way of an explanation for your understanding of what ‘trans’ is.

R139.

Trans trumps everything to the left . Shame on LGB for allowing this to happen

I'm going to do what gay people have done for generations: Be nice to trans people when I'm around them, then ruthlessly mock their taste in clothing when they're out of the room.

R141

At the end of the day, I'm still hanging in with the Dems. Honestly, I can't fathom a scenario in which I would ever cast a vote for today's version of the GOP.

A good chunk of the trans shit being pushed on the left is utter lunacy, but unlike the Republican Party, the lunatics have not entirely taken over the asylum. The power in the Democratic Party still lies mostly with the centrists.

And unlike what's happening with the Republicans, the trans lunacy really doesn't affect my life that much, if at all. I don't have kids or grandkids to worry about. I work in the medical field, and I've never had anybody pull any wacky gender nonsense on me. I've never been asked to use "they/them" or "zim/zher" or "bun/bunself" to refer to anybody, nor have I been forced to state my own pronouns. I've never had a patient challenge me when I mark them as "Male" or "Female". I realize for some people in certain areas and certain professions, these are huge issues, but I supposed I'm fortunate. I can take a "not my monkeys, not my circus" approach to it all from afar.

If the Dems ever get to the point where I feel they're too crazy for me to vote for, I will simply abstain from voting. Or, I will close my eyes, hold my nose, and think of the Supreme Court as I vote for them.

R119 if you’re more upset about clothes at target than you are about the SC overturning RvW then you were never a liberal

Most gays are capitalist who are inherently right-wing. Sorry.

I’m a Democrat. Not necessarily happy about the state of things but what is the alternative? Vote Republican? No thanks. Third party? Why bother?

As Bill Maher said, “enjoy your rape baby. You can name it Jill Stein.”

Why vote at all? Its not a system that serves its people? Isn't this obvious by now? It's also kind of openly coded this way? Why 2/3 of American's don't participate in whatever you want to call the current system

First they came for the trans community..

This never ends well. Buckle up.

PS - Told. You. So.

R149 Go out and get yourself some hormones.

I am pro-trans who suffer from diagnosed gender dysphoria and transition their gender to match the sex they identify with, as it’s always been.

I am anti-conversion, gay erasure, female erasure, and exploiting gay and lesbian culture as a fad / scene / trend / social contagion for awkward white people.

The liberal idea from todays gender politics are that you have not just respect that person’s ideologies but to assimilate to their ideology when they are present. I have no problem respecting someone’s belief but being told I have to subscribe to their beliefs is where I don’t see the liberalism.

The nutcases from the left are people who most likely grew up in super religious / conservative households and use liberalism to rebel. That’s why the radical left seem as crazy as the right. They’re all from the same house.

Real liberals. People who were raised liberal and were taught that people shouldn’t be discriminated by their race, gender, sexual orientation, religion - don’t usually think or behave this way.

[quote]First they came for the trans community..

No one is 'coming for' the trans community. There is no trans genocide. People are reacting adversely to the behavior of obnoxious trans rights activists who demand that everyone accepts their topsy-turvy version of reality, a world where white men with gold lamé handbags and cheap wigs are the most oppressed creatures on earth, a world where lesbians have dicks, and gay men are transphobic bigots for not fucking elective mastectomy patients assigned female at birth named Aiden.

People are also voicing concerns about vulnerable young people including children under the age of 18 who have been sold a lie that obsessing over their gender identity is a universal solution to their comorbidities. Medical professionals are subjecting them to irreversible treatments including surgery. But anyone who speaks up about it is demonized on here and virtually every other online discussion space as ultra rightwing conservatives or Nazis.

Drop the TERFs.

We're not dropping the Trans. Full stop. We're just not going to do it. You can bitch and whine all you like, the answer is NO and it's going to stay NO. End of.

So here we are, the TERFs won't shut the fuck up, they're obsessed with Trans. We could probably just ignore them and go forward (dragging them along behind us) but unfortunately they have attached themselves to the right-wing propagandists. They think the fascists will bring them more publicity and numbers and money and attention when we on the Left and the real GLBT community won't give the Trans-Hateful TERFs the time of day.

Do we need them for any reason? No, not really. They're a teeny-tiny fraction of the larger (and much cooler) feminist world. Real feminists support Trans, everyone on the progressive Left does. It's only the right-wing fascist extremists and the Republican MAGATs who are pushing this Trans Hate. Normal people don't do this but propagandists do.

Leave the Trans Haters to the Nazis they have chosen, we can't be bothered with those tired old cunts anymore.

Drop the TERFs.

I don't think anyone can definitively say what is behind the impulse to label oneself another sex. However, here are some thoughts. First of all, one in 2000 babies is born with some degree of hermaphroditism. That is a medical reality. What does that mean? It means that children are born with ambiguous external genitalia, and in such cases, it has been routine for the past 100 years or so for the attending physician to "correct" the anomaly, by arbitrarily defining the baby as male or female and then surgically alter the baby to fit that sex. There are also additional babies born with anomalies of chromosomes that make them something else. (Chromosomes that should be male, but born with female genitalia and vice-versa.) Such people are now labeled intersex. There are some who think that more than 1 % (1 baby in 100) has some sort of intersex issue at birth. That corresponds pretty closely to the number of people who describe themselves as trans. To me, it's entirely possible that many of these people were surgically altered at birth to the wrong sex, and they were aware of something not being right from a very young age.

There are also very effeminate boys and very tom-boyish girls that might conclude that they are meant to be the opposite sex based upon how they like to dress and the kind of playing they like to do. To me, these are ambiguous cases. In most instances, these kids would grow and be gay or lesbian or would have in the past. When given the option of trans as a label and a choice, some are opting for that.

There are people above in this conversation that are adamant that people cannot be the opposite sex, but that is displaying an ignorance of the biology. There are consistent numbers and percentages of intersex people ever since biologists and medical personnel have been tracking this all the way back to the 19th century.. There are more than 2 sexes. Anyone who says different is ignorant of what science knows about the biology of human beings.

[quote] [bold] People [/bold] are reacting adversely to the behavior of obnoxious trans rights

[quote] [bold] People [/bold] are also voicing concerns about vulnerable young people including children under the age of 18

And if you pay any attention at all to the news and to social media, you realize that these "people" tend to be either (1) judgmental, conservative straight Republicans who also have a long history of "reacting adversely" to gay people in general and "voicing concerns" about gay rights and gay marriage, or (2) trolls who are trying to stir up trouble and divide the gay community. If that's the crowd you want to associate with, well, that's your choice. But let's not pretend that it's progressive Democrats who are vandalizing the pride displays at Target or trying to ban drag shows.

I am a registered Democrat and I think that trashing pride displays at Target is silly.

Objecting to children being turned into lifelong patients after taking drugs that interfere with their natural development and undergoing experimental surgeries due to a subjective and likely transitory belief that they are somehow born in the wrong body is not silly.

[quote] Can someone please tell me where we Gays stand politically now?

Isn't it interesting that a broad question about where gays stand politically becomes a discussion about nothing except trans people? Is the trans issue really the only political issue that gays care about?

It's the only issue that TERFs and right wing propagandists care about.

That's why they post at least 10+ threads a day - every day - and try to overrun this website with trash.

R158 It is interesting, but it’s also not hard to see why. As a group, they are the ones primarily responsible for turning people against us and undoing our progress.

I'm a gay liberal democrat. I believe in unions, health care for all, a complete reworking of the justice system, a wide social safety net (even if that means some abuse it), the wealthy should pay more in taxes, green everything, diplomacy over war whenever possible, abortion, paying for more and more infrastructure, keeping jobs as local as possible, making the middle class expand instead of contract.

As far as trans? I think any adult should be able to identify however the see fit. For kids? I'll leave that up to the parents. However, because I am a big fan of women's rights, no trans in women's sports, spaces, or prisons - unless invited. Not to be punitive, or anti anyone, but to be fair to women. I wish trans really could be women. But they can't. We have to reasonable, admit this, and find a fair way to satisfy both trans and bio women. It doesn't have to be such a Game of Thrones epic battle. But it does mean we need to compromise. Just a little. Which would benefit the entire Democratic party.

Still for saying that? I get called a right wing MAGA log cabinette. Which is a shame. This attack on me won't ever make me a Repuke. I know it's not true. But I know for a fact it's made other dems migrate to the right. Sort of like, "you're gonna accuse me of it? Fine. Fuck you. I'll do it!"

It's cool if you disagree with me on my take on one small part of the trans situation, but I'd suggest believing people when they say their almost totally on your side. Just agree to disagree. We do that all the time as democrats for other issues.

Every fucking vote will count when it's Trump v Biden.

No R160, you're glaringly wrong and incredibly stupid.

As a group, the Trans have done nothing to turn anyone against gay men nor have they undone any of our progress.

The people who are responsible for turning a small number of people against the LGBT community are far right extremists, Republican scum, religious freaks and, of course, TERFs. They try to undo whatever progress we have made and wish death and destruction to LGBT people, whatever lies they tell to the contrary.

They loathe and despise us, just as they always have and probably always will. Trans aren't any problem, we've had openly public Trans citizens since I was a kid 50+ years ago. Trans are now being used by the fascists as a propaganda tool. The right wing is always deeply dishonest. They have nothing to offer people politically, just hate for Trans, hate for LGBT, hate for the poor, hate for education, health care, the environment, all the usual fucked up right wing hate targets. What do you expect? They're NAZIS.

[quote]we've had openly public Trans citizens since I was a kid 50+ years ago.

R162 Really? Your family hung out with transsexuals in 1973?

Of course we were aware of openly Trans citizens in America in 1973, everyone was by then. Everyone who was paying attention knew that Trans were a part of life, like the rest of LGB's were citizens and part of life in America.

Did my family hang out with Trans in '73? No. I'm from a small town, hon.

^ As a little boy growing up in a small town pre-internet, he was aware of trans people before “trans” was even an identity. You could drive a truck through the holes in that story.

There were very few public figures whom we would now call trans 50+ years ago. Off the top of my head I can think of Christine Jorgensen and Renée Richards. The word 'transgender' was not in common usage until relatively recently. Before that there were transsexuals, transvestites, and crossdressers, who were classified into disparate categories-- a useful distinction which has been swept away by the all-inclusive umbrella of 'queer' and trans identity, which is how we've ended up with straight people identifying as LGBT.

OP Here

I guess what a lot of people are struggling with is the idea of voting for a party even though you don't agree with everything they stand for. Of course I would vote democrat and whoever they run in today's climate. I don't even see it as a choice of the "lesser of two evils." I see it as the right choice. But I guess in this hyperbolic political climate you can't express any concern over what you're seeing happening in your own party or you considered a Nazi.

And thank you r128 for posting that. Yes, that was another thread that I started that obviously isn't a troll post. AND I started a thread about "How long do you realistically want to live". I started another post after my father in law died about dealing with grief. I don't have an agenda when I start threads. I start threads about things I am actually dealing with in my life at the moment. I also posted comments on the Shirley MacLaine thread about my work experience and meeting a bunch of celebrities that was touted as "THE BEST THING I'VE READ ON DATALOUNGE IN A WHILE," and "JUST LIKE OLD DATALOUNGE," If this makes me a troll, then we are all trolls.

As a Democrat, I’m embarrassed at how stupid many Democrats are. Many throw the word “fascist” around without knowing what it really means.

I see many vehemently showing support for nefarious issues they are too dumb to understand. I’ve seen gay men on social media ranting about how trans women (men) should play in women’s sports without understanding nor caring about the effect this has on women.

Then there are the young “men of color” who love to rant about white privilege and how terrible gay white men are, despite being completely unwilling to fuck anyone who isn’t white.

Then there’s my personal favorite: during the pandemic, when conservatives would gather, liberals would admonish their stupidity (and rightly so). But when BLM gathered, no one said a goddam word, not even the media.

No, you're totally wrong R165.

We were all aware of Christine Jorgensen and Renee Richards who were both very famous in the 70's. Everyone knew about them, so sorry to disappoint you. It was big news in those days.

We took two daily papers and we took four weekly news magazines Life, Look, Time and Newsweek. I'm sure that Renee Richards and Christine Jorgensen were on some covers back then and there was coverage of both of them. Why would you imagine that no one had ever heard of Transsexuals back then?

Rick DeSantis's minister, who he chose to officiate his wedding, announced that he supports executing gay people or people who have gay sex, e.g., 'men who lie with men.'

Rick DeSantis passed a 'don't say gay' bill in Florida and the Florida legislature supported it.

That is where we stand politically.

This is a growing movement in the United States.

You support rights and protections for all people or else you are a harbinger of Nazi ideals. There is no in between. One or the other. You can be a gay Nazi if you so choose, but you can't be a gay Nazi and get away with pretending you are not on the grounds you believe someone else's state of being is 'unnatural.' Saying that only confirms your Nazi beliefs system.

A lesbian bar in France was just forced to close down due to death threats to workers & vandalism of the bar by trans Nazi stormtroopers.

"But the backlash was not limited to vandalism and social media condemnation, Guéneau also started to receive threatening messages scrawled on paper slipped under her door last month, some of which read: “Save a trans, commit suicide,” and “One bullet, one TERF.”

[quote] Of course I would vote democrat and whoever they run in today's climate. I don't even see it as a choice of the "lesser of two evils." I see it as the right choice.

Then what was the point of starting this thread and posing the question? It sounds like you already know the answer and have made up your mind. Surely you didn't start this thread just as an excuse to vent about the trans community, did you?

Do you think that's got anything to do with the way TERFs speak about trans people R171? Anything at all?

Logically... if you say repulsive and violent things about another group of people for long enough then eventually there was always going to be some kind of reaction.

At the end of the day; the extreme TERFs are just as bad as the extreme trans. No one party is innocent or better than the other in your miserable endless hate wars.

[quote]Surely you didn't start this thread just as an excuse to vent about the trans community, did you?

That's [bold]exactly[/bold] why OP started this thread R172. It's just another trans hate thread.

Hateful political strategies without question experimented and identified that they can use the existence of transgender people as leverage with which to draw out latent hatred and aggression toward others.

They successfully tested hatred toward all Muslim on 9/12/2001, with Muslims becoming the new Black Americans overnight and almost the entire country took the bait. White people mistook other brown people for Middle Eastern Muslims and happily extended hatred toward them, and this was broadly celebrated. This was a successful litmus test that we are not in a post-discrimination society.

They tested hatred toward gay people, a small population, and it backfired with a same-sex marriage advancing.

They revived hatred toward Muslim people as a wedge issue and it absolutely magnetized more people, since we are a hateful Christian nation, to the right. People like Bill Maher who claimed to be anti-religion across the board adopted the hateful sentiment not even on religious grounds, showing that Christian hatred has nothing to do with Christianity.

Trump came along and began his crusade with anti-Muslim hatred and it rallied hateful Republicans. He then extended this toward Mexican people and by extension all Spanish-speaking immgrants. He was unapologetic and the GOP and the Trump campaign found success in rallying hatred.

Although Trump is chaotic, his approach was 100% rhetoric modeled on Hitler's divide-and-conquer tactic. He attacked individuals such as Rosie O'Donnell, Megyn Kelly, Lindsey Graham based on hatred—looks, womanhood, homosexuality—and it tickled all his supporters. More success.

His capaign underwrote Milo Yiannopoulos as a purportedly gay man to double down on the misogyny more explicitly, to solicit gay support, and to attack the transgender population's existence. Pure hatred and he became an instant celebrity. He also claimed to be part Jewish and used that, in the same way he used the supposed homosexuality, to attack Jewish people with dog whistles. He claimed to reject his Jewish heritage and wrote essays about how he chose Catholicism because it is more legitimate.

He isn't even American and he was adored by Republicans simply because he was so hateful and gave them permission as a court jester to laugh at him and at the targets of his attacks.

The approach also converted gay men who saw a role model in him: now that we are so mainstream as to be accepted by hateful Republicans, we can be just as hateful. One of these hateful men was paid by Out magazine to promote Milo Yiannopoulos in an insanely long article that took up HALF an issue and was full of racist, anti-women and anti-transgender rhetoric. Out magazine editor Matthew Breen defended it after backlash and said Yiannopoulos represents the views of a lot of gay people and deserves space. A win for the GOP. They grew their base of Nazis. The investment was worthwhile.

The GOP tested out anti-Semitic hatred in Charlottesville, sending out 'very fine people' with MAGA hats and swastika armbands to chant 'Jews will not replace us.' This did not go over well. They took hatred of Jewish people off their official list—for now.

They dumped Milo. They supported Roy Moore and others who are pedophiles, but the GOP was behind the QAnon Pizzagate insane theory, and the whole theory is founded on accusations Hillary Clinton and Democrats are child sexual predators. So they couldn't support Milo and more pertinently, he had served his purpose and could be dumped and replaced.

They replaced him with Candace Owens. Why? Because the Black vote is a large segment of the population and won Biden the presidency. If they can create a figurehead for latently hateful Black Americans like they did with gay Americans via Milo, then they can herd Black people to the team of oppressors. The gay people who were converted by the Milo movement remain loyal and brainwashed and eager to hate and harm as we see here.

Do you think that's got anything to do with the way TERFs speak about trans people [R171]? Anything at all?

Do TERFS harass trans with public death threats? Do TERFS brandish around baseball bats painted in pink, blue and white?

"A public library in the US is hosting a disturbing exhibition that incites violence against women who defend and promote biological, sex-based rights.

The San Francisco Public Library unveiled an exhibit this week featuring blood stained t-shirts encouraging patrons to “punch” feminists, along with several installations of deadly weapons painted pink: baseball bats covered in barbed wire, axes, among others, all designed by men to kill feminist women.

The display has been funded by the non-profit group “Friends of The San Francisco Public Library”. The display was created by The Degenderettes, a group led by Scout Tran Caffee, who founded Trans Dykes.

Materials include riot shields inscribed with the slogan “Die Cis Scum.” Cis is a transgender community term, generally used as a slur, for non-transgender people.

From the exhibit manifesto:

“The Degenderettes are a humble and practical club, fighting for gender rights within human reach rather than with legislation and slogans. Their agit-prop artwork has come to permeate internet trans culture, national television, and headlines as far as Germany.” (From the San Francisco Public Library website.)

A panel discussion is planned for May that includes a contributor who refers to himself as “Mya ‘I Punch TERFS’ Byrne” (Jeremiah Birnbaum) and “Male butch dyke” (Uriah Ezri Sayres Cantrell).

After receiving complaints about the incitement to violence the library removed the t-shirt that calls people to punch feminists but has not removed the weapons or other offensive materials on display.

Kirralie Smith, Binary spokeswoman, said the publicly funded library has overstepped the mark.

“By all means let's have a debate about gender fluid ideology, but to incite violence against anyone who holds an opposing view is unacceptable,” she said.

“It would be interesting to know if the public library also allows opposing views to be expressed that defend and promote biological, sex-based reality?”

I'm a politically homeless lesbian. And most of the reasons why are because too many abusive calls have been coming from inside the house.

^ I just...I can't anymore.

For some reason, I always assumed lesbians would be more accepting and open and tolerant than gay men. I guess because gay men are so cliquey and 'mean girls'-like so much of the time, discriminating based on appearances and body shape and race and income and style, and lesbians seem relatively laid back and nonplussed.

But our small sampling here on DL suggests that gay women are disproportionately hateful toward transgender people, claiming to be personally victimized by their existences. I find that so curious.

There now are a lot of transgender people on Grindr. I don't understand why someone who is made up to look like a woman would go onto an app made for men who are not physically attracted to women, but we coexist and I have never had any kind of negative or dramatic exchange with any of them, and their being there does not make me fear that my identity is going to be absorbed by them and convert me into a woman...or whatever the nonsensical fear is.

Yes it isn't the end of the world to have a few different people on Grindr R179. It's just reflective of real life now. Nobody is being forced to sleep with anybody else - regardless of the trans-hate trolls continual insistence that gay people are being forced to sleep with trans people. Obviously, that would be rape. And none of it ever happened.

What I do on Grindr is just move along to the next profile if I'm not interested.

Gay men also stopped posting "no fats, no fems, no Asians" in their profiles years ago. That phrase was rampant 10 years ago. It was as standard as RSTLNE are on Wheel of Fortune.

Did these men stop saying it because they want to have sex with those types of appearances? Highly unlikely. Did stopping being overtly hateful reduce self-hatred of a lot of people who would read that on every profile? Most likely it did. Did it even potentially change a few minds to *be* less hateful? Likely. Did it change sexual interests? No. Overweight, effeminate and Asian men are on Grindr, and why shouldn't they be? Is everyone forced to have sex with everyone everywhere? That is not a thing that happens in anyone's version of life. Does the presence of transgender people there change sexual interests or force gay men to put their penises into vaginas or suck off a penis attached to a face that looks like a woman? This has never happened.

You are not endangered by trans people sharing space with you in person or virtually, R177. It does not render you "practically homeless" to share public spaces with other people and not to be able to be entirely self-segregating. All it does is force you to be around people who you are prejudiced against, no different than a bigot in Mississippi being forced to eat in a restaurant at a table next to a Black family. That Black family will not harm or even interact with them, but the bigot will continue to feel personally victimized. That is exactly how you are thinking and behaving.

Another thread started by the Good American Troll OP:

[quote]I left the United States and Moved to Italy. After 2020, I had had enough. Feel free to ask me any questions. I have many thoughts about my decision - a lot of which I am still processing.

He's in Italy. Why does it matter now. He has "HAD ENOUGH."

Gay women deserve to have spaces free of unwanted attention from men, R179, just as gay men deserve to have their own spaces. This is not a hateful thing to say.

Lesbians tend to attract far more persistent and noxious unwanted attention from men because that is how some straight men operate. There are straight guys who fetishize lesbians, and heterosexual men who claim to actually be lesbians are some of the worst offenders in this regard. None of this means that lesbians as a class hate trans people as a class. I hope that reasonable trans people would agree that gay women should be able to associate with other gay women in offline spaces and on dating apps without fear of being labelled a transphobe if they reject a man who says he's a woman. Unfortunately some of those men are sex pests who don't like taking no for an answer. It's coercion in the guise of inclusiveness.

R183 And you think that men prey sexually on lesbians specifically, going to the trouble of buying and wearing women's clothing, makeup and wigs, and paying doctors to prescribe hormones and having breast implants surgically installed all so that they can pester lesbians for sex?

That's an incredible level of commitment, R183. For all the cost and expense, you'd think they could just rent a prostitute with short hair who can fix things and skip all that transgenderism stuff.

[quote]You are not endangered by trans people sharing space with you in person or virtually, [R177]. It does not render you "practically homeless" to share public spaces with other people and not to be able to be entirely self-segregating. All it does is force you to be around people who you are prejudiced against, no different than a bigot in Mississippi being forced to eat in a restaurant at a table next to a Black family.

r181 I am a lesbian. That means I am attracted to women. Transwomen are biological males. They can never be women. To even approach me or like my profile on a dating app for women to meet other women is ludicrous. It's also a thinly veiled form of homophobia to insist that lesbians be "ok" with being propositioned by males on a dating app for lesbians. Also, you using a Black family as a comparison to this issue was doubly insulting because I also happen to be Black. Black is not something you "transition" to. I was born Black as I was born gay.

I don't mind sharing other spaces with transwomen. However, when it comes to sex segregation, unless the individual reasonably passes, people need to stick to spaces that align with their biological sex. I'm not interested in building a society where it's normalized for someone who is a very obvious male to enter into women's changing rooms without someone speaking up.

OP in the Italy thread of 2021 linked above:

[quote]after the George Floyd riots in NYC, and watching everything go down across the country - the place felt kind of hopeless for now and I was done with it.

He also gets caught in a lot of LIES about resident status, food prices and taxes, and lots more.

His whole point is to show how horrible America is and how wonderful it is elsewhere.

The OP here is a longtime TROLL.

R184 hasn't seen some of the spectacularly low-effort/no-effort dudes calling themselves transwomen on dating apps recently. These are guys who haven't bothered to shave, let alone have surgery.

[quote][R183] And you think that men prey sexually on lesbians specifically, going to the trouble of buying and wearing women's clothing, makeup and wigs, and paying doctors to prescribe hormones and having breast implants surgically installed all so that they can pester lesbians for sex?

r184 I have personally experienced very obvious males who barely made an effort to pass as women on the HER app liking my profile. I took screenshots of these individuals and would be more than happy to share so you can see the type of shit a lot of lesbians are putting up with and why we're sick of it.

[quote] Black is not something you "transition" to.

AHEM.

menluvinguy, your thinking about the origin of trans is rather poor. Trans people have nothing to do with genetic anomalies that result in Disorders of Sexual Development.

R188 OK, share the images, by all means.

Does the app not have a block button? Grindr is full of creepers, as are all gay sites. Men are creepy to men just as they are to women. A block button can solve those annoyances more easily than the club in a whack-a-mole game.

r187 r190

This lady can use your support when she announce this week.

R191, you seem to be unaware of just how toxic and abusive those men are—the ones who harass lesbians. And yes, some of them will go very far with their paraphilia (altering their appearance) AND will harass lesbians who will never be interested in them.

You keep comparing this situation to Grindr and fats, fems, and Asians. We are men. We don’t fear those men. Women have reason to fear men. Surely you understand *that*?

[quote][R188] OK, share the images, by all means.

Fucking. Gladly.

Exhibit A:

^ Exhibit B:

Fuck you, OP, you idiot troll misstating "the left's" political agenda so that you can lie and shit all over here.

With bad English.

Thank you, R194. Lesbians have been on the front lines of this situation for many years now, but some people just don't want to know about it and see any pushback from gay women as evidence of intolerance rather than an understandable response to incessant sexual harassment. Decades ago straight guys thought they were being funny when they made that cliché joke about actually being lesbians, but now women are expected to take them seriously and 'validate' them.

This video shows the CEO of the HER app telling lesbians exactly what she thinks about us daring to only prefer our own sex as partners.

Really, why do people thing that if trans folks want the same rights as others, to healthcare, job security and self identification- that their rights are diminished. They are not.

When the rights of anyone in the the LGBT acronym are protected, and other ethnic and religious minorities in the US, the rights of all are protected and our nation becomes a more perfect union.

Some say that trans people are taking the focus off gay rights- garbage. You all sound like Christian nationalists making up nonsense.

It’s so simple. And ignore the trolls- who feed you these bullshit narratives because they are in your face bigots.

At least the lesbians are openly transphobic, afraid that they are under attack by men in wigs. In a way saying "we're afraid!!" is more honestly phobic than just blaming the Bible and saying it's not fear or hatred; it's JESUS'S LOVE!!!

R151 if you are against gay erasure, then you should take that up with conservatives and not trans.

The only gay erasure comes from conservatives.

The reason so many people on DL think that there are so many conservative trolls here is because of people like you.

If you believe trans are responsible for gay erasure, then you surely must believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny.

If you are not a troll, then you are naïve to the point of childishness.

I certainly hope you’re not allowed to drive

If you are gay and vote for any GOP candidate, city, state or federal you are a fucking idiot. Thier whole platform is against us. Don't buy the "it's just the trans thing" argument. Don't say gay has their full support and some say does not go far enough. They want to overturn gay marriage. Vote Blue at every level.

Apart from women in prison and women in sheltered accommodation who have very good reason to be afraid of 'men in wigs', as you put it, R201, lesbians are for the most part not afraid nor are they transphobic. They are however fucking TIRED. Gay women would like to be able to socialize with other gay women online and offline without having to field constant attention from horny obnoxious men who pretend to be lesbians. It's like that Chris Rock joke about how every time men offer to help women with something all they are doing is trying to fuck them: 'How about some dick? Could I help you with that? Could I help you to some dick? Do you need some dick?' That's what it's like being a lesbian now.

r204

R204 All of the arguments made above are based on fear completely. Scroll up. The transphobic women explain themselves on the basis of being afraid of men preying upon them. No one said they are tired.

[quote][R204] All of the arguments made above are based on fear completely. Scroll up. The transphobic women explain themselves on the basis of being afraid of men preying upon them. [bold]No one said they are tired.[/bold]

[quote]I took screenshots of these individuals and would be more than happy to share so you can see the type of shit a lot of lesbians are putting up with and why [bold]we're sick of it.[/bold]

Go home, Roger.

Charlie, it’s like you haven’t read any of the responses here. Did you really read them and not comprehend the words?

Do you really not understand the implications of ‘self-identification’? It isn’t just that some people say “I want to be seen as the sex that I am not.” It’s that they want other things to happen *as a result* of that self-ID, and that is where it begins to affect other people in non-neutral ways.

Of course every trans-identified person should be free from discrimination, have the same access to employment and housing, etc. Duh. No one is against that.

But you really have not thought this through—or evidently paid ANY attention—if you think that people demanding others see them as something they fundamentally are not doesn’t have implications for other people and THEIR rights. Jesus Christ.

The OP may be a troll, but I think this is a valid discussion to have, especially on a gay message board. I think many of us understand that this is the latest wedge issue, but wedge issues don't become wedge issues for shits and giggles. They happen because people have strong opinions, usually as a result of people feeling "forced" into something.

America, culturally, is slow to change. You can drag them kicking and screaming into something, but be prepared for a backlash (ask black people). We are now seeing that backlash. And it's not just from republicans, MAGAs, and shit stirrers - they are just the loudest. For a sea change issue like gender and trans, did people really think it was going to be as easy as they thought it was going to be. It's about so much more than changing some pronouns and saying you're queer. Some things you have to approach with baby steps.

To the troll @R208: i know racist, homophobic xenophobic pieces of crap lile you detest being called out on your shit. But your life will be so much easier and less frought with peril if simply learn to embrace your homophobic, xenophobic, racist deeply closeted self and let your freskazoid flag fly high at the next Pride Parade. Get on a float with the trannies and drag queens and be out and proud, gurlina.

And some things shouldn’t ever be achieved, even with baby steps, R209, because they’re bad, illogical, incoherent, and harmful ideas.

There’s also a movement to ‘normalize’ schizophrenia. The Hearing Voices Movement.

R210, you’re just not a serious person. Homophobic? I’m gay. I’m not afraid of gay people, I don’t hate gay people, and I don’t hate myself for being gay. Yes I am racist and xenophobic though.

I agree with the guy in the red baseball cap at R209!

[quote] I think many of us understand that this is the latest wedge issue, but wedge issues don't become wedge issues for shits and giggles. They happen because people have strong opinions, usually as a result of people feeling "forced" into something.

That wedge issue of women being mauled in ladies' rooms by transgender men was because women were forced into that situation, even though not one such event ever happened in reality.

And that wedge issue about same-sex marriage! So many men and women who didn't want to get married being forced to marry someone of the same sex! MY GOD!!

And that wedge issue of abortion only exists, AS WE ALL KNOW, because so many women are forced to get abortions!!! So many forced abortions in the USA!!! If so many women who were looking forward to motherhood were not forced to abort their beloved babies, there'd be no wedge issue at all!!

The truth shall set us free!

[quote] That wedge issue of women being mauled in ladies' rooms by transgender men was because women were forced into that situation, even though not one such event ever happened in reality.

It’s true that women aren’t regularly mauled by trans-identified men in restrooms and locker rooms, and I think the danger of that has been overstated for sure. But you’re overlooking the other totally fair objections women have to males entering their single-sex spaces: privacy and dignity.

I think you’re also misstating the objections to abortion that people who are anti-abortion have. I am staunchly pro-abortion and believe there should be FAR MORE abortions than there currently are, but people who are opposed to it are not opposed to it because they think they’ll be forced to abort their own fetuses.

R214 Every argument I made is facetious, not just the one about abortion. I was illustrating how ridiculous the quote at R209 is that says all wedge issues exist because people are pushing back against being forced to do things.

No one is forced to get an abortion.

No one is forced to marry the same sex.

No one gets attacked in bathrooms by men in dresses.

I am really sad that I have to explain this and that the sarcasm is not self-evident to everyone.

[quote]That wedge issue of women being mauled in ladies' rooms by transgender men was because women were forced into that situation, [bold]even though not one such event ever happened in reality. [/bold]

I don't think we can be counted on to vote in lockstep? If our overt concern is acceptance of diversity, we could at least admit there's not always going to be political unity within our own diversity. Personally I'm as liberal as I know how to be, and I support neither the far right nor the near right or any of that bullshit. But like I do know Catholic gays who don't support Roe v. Wade, so what can I say to them on the subject?

[quote]But like I do know Catholic gays who don't support Roe v. Wade, so what can I say to them on the subject?

That "fuck you, I got mine" is a morally questionable political position?

R177 What the hell is a nonbinary lesbian? Isn’t the definition of a lesbian literally a woman who likes women?

[quote]What the hell is a nonbinary lesbian? Isn’t the definition of a lesbian literally a woman who likes women?

In order to accomodate the non-binaries, pan-genders, agenders, tri-genders, and others who don't want to be considered women, but still want to get laid, the definition of "lesbian" has now been changed from "women who are attracted to women" to "non-men who are attracted to non-men".

Try to keep up, hun. You're SO 2018!

R172, no that wasn't why I started the thread. Although the trans issue seems to be a hot button topic. But we could have easily talked about bail reform and crime, the state of NYC and San Francisco (two major cities for gays). We could have talked about immigration. But these topics didn't come up.

[quote] Personally I'm as liberal as I know how to be

You make it sound like instead of analyzing your personal views on the issues and determining from that where you fall on the political spectrum, you determined that you need to be “liberal” and then worked backwards from that to make your views on the issues be whatever they are supposed to be within the label.

[quote]The only gay erasure comes from conservatives.

Total lie. You might just be stupid, but hon, your agenda is showing.

The GOP's open agenda is the erasure of gay people. They want to reverse gay marriage and make religious beliefs a legal reason to discriminate. OF the two parties the Democrats are more on our side. r223 don't both sides this shit.

I was at Queens Pride today.

Tons of gay men and women.

Tons of trans people.

No erasure of gay men or women happening.

Several groups bringing up the fact that we're all under attack by conservatives, and that we're stronger together.

Take your psychotic fear, hatred and eliminationist rhetoric elsewhere.

^^^Oh well that solves the whole trans problem then, I guess.

R226

[quote]Oh well that solves the whole trans problem then, I guess.

That would be a great topic to discuss with your court-ordered psychiatrist.

Oh I see no one is getting erased because they were all at pride! Got it. Never mind the 20 state laws erasing gays. Never mind the GOP putting the reversal of gay marriage on their platform. Oh hey, ignore when Republican congresspeople call us degenerate. It's all okay because a bunch of us got together and had a parade!

[quote]Oh I see no one is getting erased because they were all at pride! Got it. Never mind the 20 state laws erasing gays. Never mind the GOP putting the reversal of gay marriage on their platform. Oh hey, ignore when Republican congresspeople call us degenerate. It's all okay because a bunch of us got together and had a parade!

*blinks several times*

Okay deep breaths honey. Deep, easy breaths.

The point I thought I was making here was that I witnessed all kinds of different people hanging out on a beautiful Sunday afternoon and...just getting along. Indian families with small kids waving rainbow flags. Gays and lesbians and trans people and Latino families and Asian families just hanging out and enjoying the day.

A lovely contrast all the online and politically-generated psycho hysteria.

R230 Yep and the one I went to had large crowds holding OKAY GROOMER signs and telling us to go to hell. It was magical. I'm glad you had a magical day. We are still being erased and if you don't give a shit, you are part of the problem.

[quote]We are still being erased and if you don't give a shit, you are part of the problem.

So sorry to hear about your crystal meth relapse.

r232 uhuh. Vote bitch.

OP: He is she. She is he. Some are neither. Men can have babies. I am who I say I am. I am they.

r234

The whole thread, TLDR..

The trans should be accepted as part of the gay community.

But if you are up in people's faces and constantly demanding attention for your little niche, then that is on you. Trans don't want to be left alone. They want constant attention for no reason.

The opposite of stonewall.

[quote]But if you are up in people's faces and constantly demanding attention for your little niche, then that is on you. Trans don't want to be left alone. They want constant attention for no reason.

Lol, r236. Are they coming to your door? Accosting you on the street? Constantly calling you? How exactly are they being all up in your face?

Your only post in the thread, r236?

[quote]R172, no that wasn't why I started the thread. Although the trans issue seems to be a hot button topic. But we could have easily talked about bail reform and crime, the state of NYC and San Francisco (two major cities for gays). We could have talked about immigration. But these topics didn't come up.

Bless your heart, OP. We see you.

[quote]The trans should be accepted as part of the gay community.

Sure, r236. But only the "straight" ones (i.e MTFs attracted to men and FTMs attracted to women). "Straight" MTFs are technically just gay males and the FTMs are technically lesbians with gender dysphoria.

"Gay" MTFs and FTMs are technically just straight people with gender dysphoria.

Although, I'm straddling the fence on where people who date trans people sit on the Kinsey scale. Because while a man dating/sleeping with a transwoman isn't 100% straight, it's not exactly 100% gay, either. I don't know what to call it. That's like its own sexual orientation, to me.

[quote]The trans should be accepted as part of the gay community.

No!

A world of doo-doo but that’s nothing new. The question is, what are we going to do about it?

R241

Lol r237 if you don't recognize the attention that the trans demand, then hellen Keller would like to have a word.

I am just saying that we should be inclusive without being bullied.

It is as simple as that

That didn't answer the question, r244.

OP Here. I just had a realization that helps me put current Trans movement into perspective.

The Trans community was not always like this. I spent my entire adulthood in NYC. As a young gay of course I was going out all over the city, to Jackie 60, Limelight, Cheetah, Velvet in the east village. Amanda Laopr, Sophia Lamar, (Girl)Lina, Honey Dijon, Jackie Beat, Hedda Lettuce and the Justin Bond's of the world were huge part of maturation, if not friends of mine. I worked in retail where I had close trans friends. I heard about their stories growing up, their struggles, which I could identify with because their stories for acceptance were similar to mine. At that time the LGBT community seemed unified and cohesive when it came to fighting for acceptance and safe spaces in which to live.

I realize now the tenor of the Trans movement now has a lot to do with the generation it is coming into prominence under. The more militant members of the Trans community have found a willing army in a very entitled generation that would just as soon get a professor fired for not using their correct pronouns, ruin someone's life, instead of having a constructive argument around it. This generation is the battle axe of civil rights movements. They want everything they want right now. Instead of growing seeds that will come to fruition in future generations, they are applying a scorched earth approach to remove anything in their way to remake the garden of humanity in their image. Unfortunately this is leading to a lot of blowback, and not just in their faces, but all of ours.

If only we knew the chasm of discord that adding that Q, (Queer or Questioning?), by not defining it and leaving it open as a catchall for anyone who wants to jump on the bus of our cause.

^ ACTUP and the movement in general was burning down the house, fighting for medical funding to save our lives, laws that would allow us to live in peace without getting attacked, rights to keep our jobs and the right to fight for our country openly. We weren't fighting over what name to call us or the right to take a public dump wherever we wanted. This current generation and the trans movement seems to have taken one of our latter day, tangential battles of getting bakers to put both of our names on a wedding cake and created an entire Bill of Rights around that.

And it's interesting to note that even in the gay community with this current generation we saw the whole "You shouldn't say something is gay - thinking about how that would make you feel," stuff started popping up. I remember thinking, that 's all fine and well, but can I get married yet? Let's focus on that, why don't we.

r246 I lost a few friends in the community for merely stating that I believe sex-segregated spaces should remain as such and that steps should be made to build a third (gender-neutral) space for trans people. Needless to say, it only pushed me further away and made me go "fuck the third bathroom...fuck it all" for a minute.

It took people like Buck Angel, Blaire White, and Rose of Dawn to pull me back down to earth and start being more sympathetic to their issues and realize that a happy medium is not only possible but definitely needs to take place within reason.

It's much ado about nothing. My university has lots of single-stall "any gender" bathrooms sprinkled about campus. A trans person wearing a dress is not safe in a male bathroom - and if that person is not welcome in a women's bathroom, where exactly should bodily functions take place? It was not an expensive retrofit - nor would it be in any school in the entire country. I don't even know why or when this became a right-wing paranoia major issue when the fix was obvious and simple. It's the very definition of a wedge issue.

[quote]A trans person wearing a dress is [bold]not safe in a male bathroom[/bold] - and if that person is not welcome in a women's bathroom, where exactly should bodily functions take place?

It kills me how people can in the same breath flat out admit that males are generally unsafe to be around if one presents feminine in any way shape or form, but then insist that females should just accept males into our spaces with open and eager arms.

Third facility. Build one. That is all.

r251, I'm assuming you're just being a little dense or deliberately misconstrued my sentence. A man dressed as a woman is not unsafe in a men's bathroom because of sexual danger, but because it's possible that somewhere there will beat the shit out of him. The same person using a women's bathroom is likely to head straight to a stall because there will be much untucking to do before any kind of bodily function can take place. That person is not there for sexual activity. I'm not talking about the 6'6 guys with beards dressed up as women in some weird fetish thing. Those people are concerning, yet I suspect, very uncommon. But I agree that the simplest and cheapest solution is single stall any gender bathrooms.

[quote] [bold]A man dressed as a woman[/bold] is not unsafe in a men's bathroom because of sexual danger, but because it's possible that somewhere there will beat the shit out of him.

[quote]A trans person wearing a dress

Which is it, r252? Because I can assure you that this is a very important detail. A transwoman who passes well enough won't have an issue in a woman's bathroom to begin with. I also don't mind them because those are usually the individuals with legitimate gender dysphoria.

[quote] I'm not talking about the 6'6 guys with beards dressed up as women in some weird fetish thing.

You're not allowed to call it a fetish. If they say they identify as a woman, regardless of what your lying eyes tell you, they're women. Period.

[quote]A trans person wearing a dress

That's the part about the whole movement I don't get. Why can't you be a trans person in a hoodie and jeans and Adidas sneakers? Why is it that if you identify as a woman you have to start wearing the steortypical gender re-enforcing clothes that are traditionally reserved for women? Have you been to a campus lately? How many girls are walking around in maxi dresses, heels, nails done, makeup done? Why do trans women HAVE to affect what society views as a stereotypical woman? That part I don't get.

It just reminds me growing up when there was a such thing as a "wigger" - a white person who identified with black culture. This person HAD to affect the clothes, walk and demeanour of a very specific stereotype of a hood rat JUST so you knew where they stood (i.e. Chet Hanks0). They had to put on the clothes of what they thought a stereotypical black person would wear so you would know they identified as such. Where as me as a black person, I am black if I am in an argyle sweater and khakis or a track suit and gold chain, whether I speak the Queen's English or Ebonics.

Trans women have to affect a certain form of stereotypical womanhood just so you know what they identify as. Hair, nails, heels, breasts, dresses do not make a woman. A woman is a woman in a hoodie and cargo shorts and flipflops. I feel they are just reinforcing all of the issues surrounding gender that they say they are fighting against.

The direction they should be pushing society towards should be that some men are born with breasts, and some women are born with penises - and not chopping either off JUST to look like what society expects a certain gender to look like. Then women born as males can keep their dicks and men born as females don't have to remove their breasts.

Excellent question, R254. Of course you won’t get an answer.

Trans is all about regressive stereotypes. It’s one of the defining characteristics.

[quote]Why is it that if you identify as a woman you have to start wearing the steortypical gender re-enforcing clothes that are traditionally reserved for women? Have you been to a campus lately? How many girls are walking around in maxi dresses, heels, nails done, makeup done? Why do trans women HAVE to affect what society views as a stereotypical woman? That part I don't get.

The trans-identifying men who dress in 'sexy' clothes (minis, high heels, etc.) and who like to wear garish makeup are usually porn-addled fetishistic cross-dressers AKA autogynephiles. They see women as sexual objects and wish to be objectified in similar fashion.

R256, that is hardly what I am talking about. I am not talking about trans men that become blowup dolls. Caitlyn Jenner, once she transitioned had to start getting blowouts, nails done, kitten heels, always with a face full of makeup. I saw her once and the heel was so low and the foot so long, I thought her bootie was going to crack in the center. Just wear a flat sneaker. Or even the god awful outfit in R253's post. I am a woman now so I must wear lipstick, a headband, a dress and drop earrings. I mean come one. Why not just dress androgynous? I know everyone has a right to dress however makes them feel good. But it just seems overall trans women embrace SUCH sartorial clichés that it makes you wonder if that is what they actually think makes them a woman, or I should say - not a man. The fact is it's more than just identifying as a woman, you have to look like one which leads to the sticky question then, what does a woman look like? Maybe that is what Trans should be challenging instead of conforming.

R257, trans-identifying men who dress like whores are embracing a sartorial cliché just as Caitlyn Jenner is embracing another sartorial cliché. That's the point-- it's all stereotypes.

The pieces start to fall into place once you realize that these men are massive narcissists who see themselves as the female lead in their own melodrama. They are living a fantasy. They wear costumes, not clothes.

It's a small world...

R250 I think that's a great question. Because for most of the 2000s supporting trans was the easiest thing ever. Of course we all want everyone to be who or what they identify as! Of course we should respect pronouns! Only a mean-spirited jerk wouldn't do something so easy as that.

I think the tipping point was women in sports. It seems so unimportant in the big picture. But it's so clearly wrong - ethically, visually, scientifically etc.. - that it opened the door to otherwise neutral, every day Americans to go, "Wait. That's wildly unfair. And they keep telling me I'm the bigot?? Are you kidding me?? Gee, I wonder what else is wildly unfair about this new fangled trans issue...?"

The worst mistake the trans community did was insisting trans women must compete with bio women's sports. Sure, it made Lia Thomas famous. But it really hurt the thousands and thousands of everyday transfolks by turning the general population against them.

That's my take anyway.

Educate yourself, r260...

[quote]Privacy laws make it tough to identify the exact number of transgender athletes competing in public school sports, but researcher and medical physicist Joanna Harper estimates the number can't exceed 100 nationwide.

[quote]"While we don't know the exact number of trans women competing in NCAA sports, I would be very surprised if there were more than 100 of them in the women's category," Harper told Newsweek.

[quote]One hundred transgender athletes would comprise an incredibly small number of the U.S. population, and the number dwindles even further when it comes to middle school and high school athletes.

They have no "actual issues" R261. What they have are fake issues pushed on the more gullible members of the public by right wing extremist propagandists. This is a made-up Fucker Carlson/Sean Shammity issue. These people want "clicks" and attention, they don't give a fuck about Trans and they certainly don't give a fuck about Women. They've proven that time and time again.

So the women who are allegedly against "gay erasure" are promoting the people and ideas most likely to "erase" them at the first opportunity.

They cry about phony "women's oppression" while they support and promote actual women's oppression.

[quote]Why do trans women HAVE to affect what society views as a stereotypical woman? That part I don't get.

The Trans Agenda is developed to please and portray people SOLELY according to the external looks and behaviors determined by intense heteronormativity! It is a "solution" for them to completely change dysmorphic and mainly gay people into behaving and appearing more straight, because that is really the only choice allowed!

My impression is that many, if not most, trans people would not be satisfied to don androgynous clothes. For those who want to be seen as female, it is probably crucial to them to wear clothes that society reserves solely for females. (Dresses and the like). For those who want to be seen as males, it is probably crucial to them to wear their hair short in hair styles associated with men, as well as sports shirts and trousers, and many of them attempt to grow beards if they are getting hormones.

yes, r264 and it is all as nutty and diagnosable as you observed!

And R264 as you point out, they are re-inforcing what society says a woman must look like. Isn't that going against the point? And those things change over time. Heels were created for men.

R266