So many people cannot read

When I lived in Georgia, I realized that at least 30% of the people I worked with, couldn’t read or write.

This included a few supervisors.

The other thing that surprised me was how many adults had missing teeth, and never bothered to do anything about it. Even the ones with dental insurance.

"How can it be that nearly 200 million Americans are illiterate? Most studies discuss “strict literacy” – i.e. not being able to read the printed word. These studies show that 32 million Americans are illiterate, a statistic that has not significantly changed in 30 years. However, a study reported by the New York Times entitled “Half of the Adults in the U.S. Can’t Read” revealed a growing “marginal illiteracy” problem, where 50% of Americans – “nearly half of the nation’s 191 million adult citizens are not proficient enough in English to write a letter” and have difficulty in “practical matters that people face every day.” They have difficulty with reading comprehension, filling out documents, understanding and summarizing facts in an article or writing a paragraph summarizing information. And our youth are in as much trouble, as almost all high school students in the United States do not graduate with a reading proficiency above a 5th-grade reading level. Combined, the studies show nearly 200 million Americans are illiterate or marginally illiterate, and the real number could be even higher."

That's NUTS, R2.

That's half the population.

And those are the ones who will be calling the "literate" folks "elite."

I don't know if it's totally the 'school systems' fault, and if they graduate these students who can't read or write.

I'm betting the majority of these people (especially in the south) left school at an early age to work and support their families. And these are the people attracted to MAGA, and welcomed by Trump ("I love uneducated people").

And going back to what R1 said, I can't believe the number of these people who go on television supportign Trump with no teeth and no bras.

I was always impressed, pre-GPS, by how well local delivery drivers did their jobs despite being unable to read. For anyone who thinks "You're making assumptions," it was easy to tell because they needed assistance identifying which (clearly labeled) boxes to take or where to sign the delivery log. They were mostly older men who dropped out of school early in life.

[quote]But I don't understand how schools can let adults onto the street that cannot even read at a basic level.

Your understanding of what education can and can't do is quite limited, OP.

Hilarious, R6.

[quote]That's NUTS, [R2]. That's half the population.

Cringe. The U.S. population is 331m people and no way are 200m people illiterate. Numerical illiteracy is a thing too. :S

Y Kant Tori Read?

LieZ all lieZ!

R2, that is terrifying reading. What hope is there for our country if people can't even read?!

Soon, with computers learning to talk, they’ll be able to read for people. Sort of like translator programs.

How did they graduate highschool or pass the GED?

R13 because our schools don't teach reading or math or reason any more.

They're essentially test prep institutions so that schools get good scores on standardized tests and get more $$$. They could give a fuck whether little Janey or Johnny or Jamal or Jesus can actually read or add numbers or reason their way out of an equation.

R2 Yet these are the same people who proudly "did their own research" on COVID.

For several decades, US schools have used an early grade reading curriculum known to be ineffective.

Hooked on phonetics worked for me!

100% noticed this too R1. People in customer service will guess at simple words (not even big ones), which is a dead give away they're having comprehension skills and don't have a wide vocabulary beyond words they speak or hear. God only knows how they're hurting their own infant or elderly family members with those terrible skills.

People will make substitutions and not realize they may serve someone food with allergens or deliver an important item to the wrong building.

It is sad and I had friends with dyslexia. I am very grateful for my literacy when I encounter someone who struggles to understand basic info, like complement and compliment are not the same and matter in written communication.

I don't understand this. Is it a regional thing? I am not aware of ever having met someone who couldn't read. Everyone is on the internet in one manner or another and, obvious jokes aside, they can read to some extent or they couldn't be on the internet.

I don’t understand how a high school student can graduate without knowing how to read. I’m sure I’ve met plenty of illiterate people (I jokingly call my mom illiterate bc she hates to read). Right after high school I worked at a fast food place for a short time & remember a 40ish woman came in during breakfast & was pointing at the pictures on the menu board &asking what stuff was. She wanted me to read the menu to her from top to bottom & I refused, kinda summarizing it but not going into heavy detail, I told her she should just read it herself. That’s when it dawned on me that she couldn’t read. She ended up ordering a burger for breakfast because I don’t think there were pics of the breakfast items.

These people vote, ffs! They work in the medical field! This is frightening. My mother introduced me to the library when I was in first grade. Do parents not care enough to help their child learn to read either? I'm sorry, this is difficult to comprehend.

I think they have the basics of reading down,but zero desire to actually read,and even less ability to retain. Why remember anything when you can just pull it up on your phone? Back in my wild and misspent youth I was in jail(and prison) quite a bit and I used to read and write letters for inmates who couldnt read at all. It shocked me then (and that was in the late 70s,so I cant imagine how bad it is now. Funnily enough,several were what Id call idiot savants ,couldnt read a lick but could play chess or draw like nobodies business.

R2 The statistics in this article are bogus. Only 21% of adults (18+) are illiterate. I'm not sure where the writer got his facts. However, it's still tragic that we have so many illiterate adults.

According to research, our attention span has markedly decreased in just 15 years. In 2000, it was 12 seconds. Now, 15 years later, it's shrunk significantly to 8.25 seconds. In fact, scientists reckon we now have shorter attention spans than goldfish, who are able to focus on a task or object for 9 seconds..

[quote]How did they graduate highschool or pass the GED?

Did they ? Especially in the south - did they ?

How many dropped out of high school and didn't get their GEDs because they went to work in a factory, a farm, a restaurant, or WalMart at the age of 15 or 16 ?

Now with Huckabee-Sanders rolling the child labor laws back to the 29th century, there will be more drop outs and illiterate adults in the future.

Why is our children not learning?

My handyman can't read. I've used him for years; he's very reliable and knows how to do a lot of things, but I keep pushing him to learn to read or he'll never be able to get a regular job. Now he's in his early 50s and he's in dire straits all the time. I guess he's expecting his kids to support him, but I keep telling him he can't rely on them. He was born in Mexico but moved here when he was only 3. Never became a citizen. Fully bilingual (but speaking only, obviously.) Dropped out of high school. I don't know what his issue is ... I know some people have learning disabilities or just have difficulty with reading, but I don't know why he can't achieve at least a rudimentary ability to read and write. He keeps thinking he'll be able to get a job at a hardware store or something, but I keep telling him that no one will ever hire someone for a job like that if they can't read.

No wonder MAGAts love their stupid memes so much. They’re illiterate.

[quote]The other thing that surprised me was how many adults had missing teeth, and never bothered to do anything about it.

[quote]I realized that at least 30% of the people I worked with, couldn’t read or write.

Oh, the irony!

Low literacy is a big issue in some states. I live in New Mexico which has a high rate of low literacy. I worked in public health during the pandemic as a Covid-19 case investigator/contact tracer. It was a difficult job for various reasons and my mental health has suffered. One of the difficult issues, I encountered were some people who had trouble with verbal communication during calls. They would take things out of context or conflate statements. There were times I could tell that people weren't retaining information during the intake calls. They would ask questions regarding isolation or quarantine periods over and over again. People would get frustrated and upset with medical or science terms they couldn't understand.

My mom has low literacy. She graduated from high school, but has admitted she always had trouble with reading and writing. She has issues with verbal communication. My mom would also get upset if my dad or any of us kids would use words that she didn't understand. At times, my dad basically told us kids that we had to "dumb down" when talking with my mom. I'll probably sound like a giant asshole. But, it was difficult doing that because as a kid and teen I loved reading and improving my vocabulary.

When I worked in public health, I had the patience to deal with people having trouble with verbal communication during calls in part because of my experiences with my mom. However, there were many days I was mentally drained by the end of my shifts. Some of my co-workers were people who had worked as nurses, counselors, and teachers and they gave me some additional tips on how to deal with people with communication issues. I wish there would be focus in this country on low literacy or more programs to help children and adults when it comes to retaining verbal communication.

I think that the numbers in the op must be off.

sorry, not the op, r2

Vshdiwyo alottrveiel bxhxygwj zzzppppt.

I am really thankful for this thread. I thought illiteracy was like polio, didn't really exist any longer. Obviously, I now see that it's because of where I live and I have been reading (not being funny) about the issue all day off and on. Very educational and I have so much compassion for people who can't read. Their world must be so small in so many ways. Shocking and tragic.

Become an English tutor. I did. It's great work.

* Often find excuses to read material at home. * Has difficulty pronouncing long or complex words. * Has a limited vocabulary. * Has difficulty expressing simple ideas or abstract concepts. * Prefers to memorize information rather than write it down. * Regularly asks someone to write for them. * Submits invoices or memos with several spelling errors. * Refuses a new promotion. * Forgets to show up for meetings despite written confirmation. * Often has difficulty with the perception of time and space. * Often has trouble with pronunciation as they do not have the knowledge needed to discern the syllables in a word; therefore, they will often pronounce a word as they hear it. * Rarely admits to having reading and writing difficulties. They are ashamed and believe they are alone in this situation. * Generally has low self-esteem and easily feels vulnerable when in the presence of anyone they consider more “educated” than themselves. They may act submissive or aggressive when faced with a situation they do not fully understand.

Don't worry people!

Digital gadgets and twitter-level memes are now being invented for all those poor saps who weren't cosseted like us in the upper-middle-classes.

r37, I was a trailer park, extreme poverty child. I taught myself how to read long before kindergarten. Everyone in my family was a voracious reader which is likely a contributing factor in the issue.

What, everyone in your family were voracious readers which likely contributed to them raising a trailer park, extreme poverty child?

haha, no. If your parents don't /can't read neither will you.

The Illiterates are SO utterly deplorable!

I agree with the poster above who said that when the US education focus is on passing standardized tests, and not the mechanics of learning - it's a problem. Rote memorization is not that effective in teaching a person how to reason or think. Something is very wrong in the way we are teaching young people. Passing tests doesn't mean you actually learned something, past the taking of said test and then all that info tends to go out the window.

Gee, could it be the lack of arts, humanities, things like debate, public speaking?

For many years the NYC Department of Education used a system of reading created by Columbia Teachers College. Kids were taught words with pictures, like Cat. If they saw "Catastrophe," didn't know how to sound it out. Phonics was abandoned. The current head of DOE plans on restoring phonics.

R31 no I don’t think so, read closely, it’s saying that the official literacy numbers are misleading because they only concern themselves with people who can’t read whatsoever and the real issue of deeply inadequate reading skills is missed.

agreed r44. I am so shocked by both of the statistics though. It has been bothering me all day. I don't know what to do about it but I am going to look for ways to get involved in helping in some way. I can not imagine not being able to enjoy escaping into a book and how can one support themselves if illiterate?

Books are inanimate dead things.

We want things with lights, noise, color and movement!

I reckon 30% of Dataloungers are borderline illiterate.

They have scatalogical vocabularies but are only capable of one-thought 'dummy-spits'.

What really frosts my balls is when I became aware that reading cursive is now a "lost art", so to avoid ANY misunderstanding when I write the extremely occasional check I make a point to use block letters. FFS, cursive is now exotic? I've also noticed icons rather than text have become prevalent on most POS devices--I guess that words really don't matter . . . "Idiocracy" is truly in place!

When I was in grade school in the 50s I could not manage to learn to read. They taught sight reading and I would stumble on every word and they made us read out loud. it was really embarrassing and kids made fun of me. On top of that, I really wanted to know how to read. I cried to my mom and she got me a tutor. The tutor taught me phonics and I learned to read in 3 weeks. The teacher got really mad at my mom but I became a lifelong voracious reader.

What in dam hill! Tis is the most depressing thread I have ever damn well come across on the data lunge.

It ain't like everything and everyone and all the cows our dying. Stop acting like that dl.

R18 “People in customer service will guess at simple words (not even big ones), which is a dead give away they're having comprehension skills.”

Oh, dear.

[quote] People in customer service

No service is required.

1. I found the object and scanned it.

2. I got my credit card and scanned it.

I didn't need to test the literacy of the person behind the till. It is the way off the future.

^

** It is the way of the future.**

How can you get by on a daily basis, without knowing how to read? You have to read signs, streets, basic instructions and directions of products you buy, recipes...just off the top of my head. I guess people are able to do it...but it can't be easy. It sad, and explains a lot of how and why this country is where it is today. People are just pushed through the educational system...like cattle.

R54 All those problems can be handled with emojis, pictographs, sign language, Youtube videos and friend who can read for you.

Lots of Dataloungers can only recognise one or two words in a sentence and they type out an ill-thought visceral reply containing foul language and general stupidity.

R4, what's with bringing MAGA into every thread? We get it. Liberals are godlike, pure and without fault. Now, move on.

I was surprised to read recently that a lot of people do not have an internal dialog going on in their heads. I think they think in pictures instead of words. If you don't think in words how do you come up with abstract thoughts?

[quote] sign language

? They aren't deaf, they can't read. I figure that they probably do ask people stuff a lot and have a pretty simple life.

[quote]If you don't think in words how do you come up with abstract thoughts?

You don't need words to have abstract thoughts. They are abstract. Words are just a mechanism to describe it in a language everyone understands. That's how it goes for me. I only use words when I have to write or type something out.

I never met an adult that can't read, but I did have an ex that attended one of the shittiest performing inner city schools -- would often flip shit if I used any (perceived) "fancy" words. For example, I'd say something like "what we you insinuating with that comment?" And he'd lose it, screaming "stop trying to be smart!" I don't even consider myself to be highly educated or to have that great of a vocabulary. You could tell it was very upsetting for him. Both my grandparents left school in their early teens, but could at least read enough to be successful.

I remember, many years where I worked...a co-worker was helping a custodian of the building, to read. He was very kind about it...would ask, what does this say...showing a word. It was done discreetly....and the custodian seemed to be grateful.

Are you an engineer R59. Apparently, a lot of engineers think in pictures.

People can't write any more either. What worries me is the number of people who can't spell properly or utilize basic grammar. Just look at Facebook posts. People can't spell any more, nor can they put a sentence together. They just resort to clichés. It's pretty shocking.

Oh well, R63 they have chatgpt. They don't need to write anymore. It's like that cartoon movie where everyone just sits in a lazy boy and the computer does everything for them. I think the kids took that movie too seriously.

True. Everything is much easier now...autocorrect for misspellings....and now chatGPT to write. Everything will be done for you. Not good.

[quote] My handyman can't read. I've used him for years; he's very reliable and knows how to do a lot of things, but I keep pushing him to learn to read or he'll never be able to get a regular job. Now he's in his early 50s and he's in dire straits all the time. I guess he's expecting his kids to support him, but I keep telling him he can't rely on them. He was born in Mexico but moved here when he was only 3. Never became a citizen. Fully bilingual (but speaking only, obviously.) Dropped out of high school. I don't know what his issue is ... I know some people have learning disabilities or just have difficulty with reading, but I don't know why he can't achieve at least a rudimentary ability to read and write. He keeps thinking he'll be able to get a job at a hardware store or something, but I keep telling him that no one will ever hire someone for a job like that if they can't read.

I applied for a cashier's job at an Ace Hardware store in the mid 2000s. I was in college and was looking a summer job. I don't know if this is still the case, but I had to go in and take an assessment test. From what I recall, the assessment test consisted of math related questions, customer service related questions, and a section where you wrote what kind of knowledge you have about things like home repair/improvement, gardening supplies, tools, and other things related to the business.

As long as you can use an X for your signature...

What do you think the resistance to learning to read is? There are classes for adult literacy or you can get someone to help you. Surely they understand that it's a big disadvantage so what is the resistance?

r57 How the hell is it possible to not have an inner dialogue? How are these people silently reading to themselves, or even writing/typing sentences if they can't hear their own "voice" in their heads? I'm confused as to how they function.

I guess some people think they can get by well enough, why bother? All these years they somehow managed?

[quote] But I don't understand how schools can let adults onto the street that cannot even read at a basic level.

Here's a clue.

Omg ^^

I lost my shit when the post office lost about three packages in a row, causing me to take a bath on an eBay purchase.

They put a package in a box and gave me a key for it and the package had someone else's name on it. "This isn't mine."

"Yes, it is."

"No...no it isn't."

"Well bring it over here."

"Um, sure." (Mother effer was HEAVY)

"Oh, yeah. That's not you."

They took a paycheck that came to me, properly address, stamped 'return to sender on it' and sent it back. LIVID. The manager couldn't tell me why.

At one point, a clerk is taking down my name and it was clear she could barely write. I thought how sad. I feel so badly that this woman go through the school system and can barely write.

I re-bought the lost item on eBay. The check was re-issued. Life went on for me. But that poor lady at the post office has horrible reading and writing skills. Shit.

^ got

[quote]The bill, which suspends the proficiency requirements for students for three years, has attracted controversy for at least temporarily suspending academic standards amid the COVID-19 pandemic. [bold]Backers argued the existing proficiency levels for math and reading presented an unfair challenge for students who do not test well, and Boyle said the new standards for graduation would aid Oregon's "Black, Latino, Latinx, Indigenous, Asian, Pacific Islander, Tribal, and students of color."[/bold]

But whenever I say that a troubling number of White liberals sincerely believe my people are inferior and stupid, I get called all kinds of Uncle Toms, coons, house negroes, etc.

That's some bullshit, right there. Some infinitely insulting bullshit. Fuck her and the ass-backward horse she rode in on.

How do they not notice that? I'd be having a word with the manager. An illiterate person should not be working at the Post Office of all places.

USPS sucks in a lot of areas. I don't think they they always get the cream of the crop through those civil service tess.

kids are not learning much. I can't imagine how messed up things are going to be when gen z takes over.

There are huge opportunities for illiterate people in government jobs. One of them became President of the United States.

R57 I don't have a constant inner monologue. I can sound things out in my mind if I want to, and I often do when I'm imagining something, but my own thoughts and reactions aren't audible. I feel like that would slow me down tremendously both in reading and thinking. I just know what my thought is, I experience it as a whole thing at the same time. I've never sounded anything out in my head to aid in comprehension. If I "hear" anything in my mind it's usually only music or just part of what I'm imagining or visualizing at that time. I think a lot of this discussion about the internal monologue must be a big misunderstanding. There's no way that people actually sound out all of their own thoughts and everything they read in their own mind. Wouldn't that make you retarded?

[quote] I just know what my thought is, I experience it as a whole thing at the same time.

That is how I experience it too. I'm not an engineer (humanities) and don't think in pictures either.

People cannot spell. Even journalists and college graduates.

R81 I have a constant dialog going on in my head. Probably a combination of both but I wonder if more men don't think in words than women. Women tend to be more verbal than men.

KEYWORD = hispanics = illiterate

Gosh, after 50+ years of Republicans cutting education budgets, plus Bush the younger's "leave no student behind" program that has decimated public schools, I just can't figure out why illiteracy is rising dramatically overall and particularly in low income areas. Add in the prevailing attitude that teachers are throwaway professionals underserving of any respect - let along adequate pay - and you get the toxic mix the US faces in the modern world: a lazy, ignorant population incapable of complex work and yet too entitled to perform manual labor (but get really angry that immigrants will).

well said R85

[quote] Add in the prevailing attitude that teachers are throwaway professionals underserving of any respect - let along adequate pay

I know that there are some awful teachers working schools. But, I feel sorry for the good teachers who get poor pay and get treated like shit by parents or administration. I have a friend whose wife left teaching due to verbally abusive parents and school administration that didn't much to help her. My friend said that it pisses him off that many people are always willing to support nurses who ask for better pay, and better working conditions. Yet, with teachers most people don't give a shit about supporting them.

[quote] ...almost all high school students in the United States do not graduate with a reading proficiency above a 5th-grade reading level.

??!!!

How is this even possible? That seems impossible. I realize that here in the DC area, people are more educated than in most of the country, but all my coworkers' children take AP courses and read more complex literature at younger grade levels than I did, and I ended up with an undergrad degree with honors in English and an MFA in creative writing. I'm very thrown by this statistic.

On the other hand, I do realize that tech has absolutely decimated our attention spans and language-processing skills.

I have greater difficulty than ever maintaining focus on fiction for more than a few pages.

And I have been absolutely torn to shreds on this website for writing complex sentences and for not spacing between every single sentence, which people refer to as paragraphs when they go off.

I've never had any trouble and never realized other people have trouble reading paragraphs that are several sentences long, but that seems to be how things are nowadays. People have told me that they can't process sentences that are not broken up by returns. That alone staggers me.

My CEO also refuses to read emails that are written in more than one paragraph. He will only read a few sentences, and he gets annoyed if they are not in bullet points. Perhaps that is for the sake of efficiency, but it seems to me to be part of a degradation of language processing skills.

^^^That paragraph is three sentences long, and I've been attacked here at least 50 times over the years by people who are offended that I don't "use paragraphs," meaning no more than one sentence per line. I don't understand it.

[quote] all my coworkers' children take AP courses and read more complex literature at younger grade levels than I did

Maybe it's just the kind of people you know which skews how you see things. Are your co-workers middle class, have a college education, are professionals, etc?

And you do seem a bit long-winded.

R89 All are upper middle class immigrants to DC suburbs, ambitious upwardly-mobile families, and I work in higher education policy, so yeah, I do realize it's not at all typical middle America.

The thing I am hung up on is the comment that "nearly all" HS graduates can't read beyond the fifth-grade level. That would include college-bound kids, and that's just hard to believe. It seems hyperbolic.

[quote]The thing I am hung up on is the comment that "nearly all" HS graduates can't read beyond the fifth-grade level. That would include college-bound kids, and that's just hard to believe. It seems hyperbolic.

The article doesn't say 'nearly all' - it says 50%. Well, as of 2021, 37.9% of American adults 25-years-old and over held a bachelor's degree, so I guess it's possible 50% of Americans don't have complex literacy. They can do basic reading and writing so it's not as if they can't read at all.

Roughly (very roughly) 15% of the population is unqualified to serve in the military because they just aren’t smart enough. And the military has plenty of jobs that are not intellectually demanding. 15% is a huge chunk of the population. Sure, most of them are probably capable of learning to read, but they aren’t going to write clearly. Some illiterate people are just really stupid. It’s not always the fault of schools, although I think an argument can be made that No Child Left Behind-type policies do a huge disservice to all kids by expecting similar outcomes from dissimilar inputs.

I don’t think teaching focused on standardized tests is a contributor to illiteracy. Almost all of us have taken standardized tests. You have to read the questions (often carefully) and there are significant grammar components. Teaching to the tests may very well be at the expense of other learning, but it’s not compromising basic literacy..

I would have thought the prevalence of texting and social media would have reduced the incidence of almost total illiteracy over the last ten years. Guess not.

Just a thought - some of the instances of illiteracy that people are observing may be eyesight issues.

[quote] And our youth are in as much trouble, as almost all high school students in the United States do not graduate with a reading proficiency above a 5th-grade reading level.

[quote] The article doesn't say 'nearly all' - it says 50%. Well, as of 2021, 37.9% of American adults 25-years-old and over held a bachelor's degree, so I guess it's possible 50% of Americans don't have complex literacy. They can do basic reading and writing so it's not as if they can't read at all.

[R91] I paraphrased, changing the word 'almost' to 'nearly'; otherwise, yes, the article does say that. You might reconsider your own comprehension, or at least finish the paragraph you quoted. 😘

I grew up in the 60s. I was able to read before I started school. No one taught me, and there were few books in my home. Neither of my parents finished high school, they had to work. However, they both were intelligent. They read two newspapers every day. There will always be students like me, and others who easily have an understanding of math. Most students need proper instruction and enrichment experiences, but they almost all learn.

I taught primary school for many years. We used to begin with letter recognition, then phonics, word families and so forth. I had very few students who could not learn to read, those few had learning disabilities that needed specialized teaching. I worked in inner city schools and despite the lack of home enrichment, my students learned to read and write. I think the whole language approach went overboard, leaving phonics behind was a mistake which is now being recognized. Spelling, punctuation, and eventually grammar was abandoned in favor of journaling, which teachers did not edit or correct. Reading and writing became subjects in themselves, rather than skills with which to learn about things. .

Hooked on Monkey Phonics !!!

This caption is the voice of a generation.

[quote]People cannot spell. Even journalists and college graduates.

And considering the fact that spell-check is available just about everywhere, there's really no excuse for it.

[quote]People are just pushed through the educational system...like cattle.

Based on your extraneous commas and improper use of ellipses, I'm guessing that's what happened to you.

[quote]As long as you can use an X for your signature...

Speaking of which -- how do people who don't learn cursive sign their names?

[quote]I feel so badly that this woman go through the school system and can barely write.

The irony is off the charts.

Do you feel sadly too? Do you feel sorrily?

In my parents' day, being illiterate was a red-faced, head-hanging embarrassment and shame. No longer. Many "celebrities" such as Fantasia and R. Kelly are illiterate -- and quite open about it with no shame. Beyonce is strongly suspected of being semi-literate. She is neither particularly verbal nor well-spoken. Young people see these celebs' success and earning power and say "They're doing well. So why should I bother with the hassle of formal education?" Shockingly, the former mayor of a major city has said that he does not read very well (not a vision problem). This man completed law school, although I am unsure if he passed the state bar.

Being illiterate and semi-literate takes extra time. I can read an instructional manual faster than I can watch an instructional video. Being illiterate and semi-literate most definitely makes one vulnerable and dependent on those who can read and who may exploit and abuse this weakness.

It is true that much formal writing can be improved for brevity* and concise* communication: Shorter sentences and paragraphs; use of bullet points; use of headers; use of bold, ital and underline formatting for emphasis; use of white space, graphics, and color to enhance understanding.

A ruse frequently used with adults who are illiterate is "I do not have my glasses on me."

With the fledgling* and burgeoning* use of AI, and with our use of icons and emojis, and our video orientation, we are deeply entrenched* in a post-literate society. The deterioration of American and worldwide societies continues, with our tacit* consent and active participation. And yes, the failings of a.) public K through 12, and b.) parenting bear most of the blame. We can put people on the moon, and we can fund the war in Afghanistan to the tune of $330 M/day, but school districts cannot diagnose and address reading disorders (e.g., dyslexia), nor can we agree on and implement best practices for something as foundational* as teaching reading or what are the best teaching methods (phonics, whole reading, etc.) Sigh.

My own formal education was excellent, but it has not provided the promised better, more comfortable life. Society today is all about who you know, how well-connected you are, being able to talk a good game, and who you fellate*. But the good news is that literacy and basic intelligence can be quietly and surely deployed to one's benefit.

* I apologize for using "fancy" two and three-syllable words. I am sorry that my expression makes others uncomfortable. NOT!

200 million adults in the USA can't read and I'm one of em!

r88, I had no problem reading your last four paragraphs (I cite those because they're where you spoke about issues with paragraphs). A friend who got a PhD in Communications shortly before the beginning of the 21st century told me that we need to type no more than four or five lines per paragraph because, for whatever reason, the eye (or the brain) has a hard time taking it in online.

I don't remember the reasons exactly, and a lot went over my head, but it turned out she was right. I find it quite difficult to read larger blocks of text. I read two or three lines of a large paragraph, and my eye (mind?) goes to the bottom of the paragraph automatically.

Particularly now that nearly everything is written in shades of gray online, I do what I can to make what I write easy to read. I'm not writing something that's going to be printed 90% of the time, so I adapt.

It's a pleasure to come across clear, precise prose.

I felt that pleasure reading post R525 in this thread—

Yes, walls of text are horrible to read. And R104 makes a good point about clear and concise writing - good writing can be about that too. I don't think that people complain about paragraphs or lengthy writing because of illiteracy especially on forums or in a work setting where being clear and getting to the point is good communication and writing.

To make this about ME (but really to ask all of you if you can make any sense of this), I always did exceptionally well in English classes, and especially with writing; however, on standardized tests, my reading-comprehension scores always were just a little above average while all other facets of language were within upper ranges.

I mentioned this to my one coworker who is a great writer and editor (and thinker) and she sat straight up and told me her experience was always the same, and that she was always secretly ashamed of herself for it.

I've been a writer and editor my whole career and I have a BA with honors in English and an MFA in creative writing.

Does anyone know why a person would excel in all areas of a language except reading comprehension?

ADHD, r106.

The reading passages on standardized tests are so boring I would become overwhelmed with the very idea of having to read them. Consequently I rushed through them and missed questions. Probably a mild form of ADHD.

R107 Ah, that would make sense. The more I learn about ADD, the more convinced I am that I have it. But I'm almost 45, a bit late to bother with figuring out if I do and what it may mean.

r108 It's not too late, actually.

R92, there’s a critical distinction between schools requiring that students take standardized tests and schools requiring that students have instruction in how to take such tests.

I think whether or not standardized testing is valuable is a separate debate. But to get back to my point above…

I’m in my mid-60s. Everyone in my generation (at least in the US) took standardized tests. But we had zero instruction on how to take those tests or on specific test content. It was believed then that a solid general education was reasonable preparation for such tests.

In addition, at that time private test prep companies and homework help chains and franchises, if they even existed, were extremely rare. I doubt anyone my age used such services as a child.

Nowadays, many public school teachers are required to give specific instruction on taking standardized tests. Well, that instructional time cannot be created out of thin air; it is time taken away from real, meaningful, content-based instruction.

There is so much less emphasis in schools today on mastery, competency, let alone expecting students to acquire a common base of important knowledge. And even less emphasis on accuracy in reading and writing.

Furthermore, the proportion of students who graduate high school with genuine 12th-grade level skills just keeps dropping and dropping. I have worked with graduates of the Ivies and the public Ivies and even their literacy and numeracy are appalling. I could go on and on but I think my point stands.

Hard to be hopeful for the future.

I would like to make one more comment… an anecdote that I think illustrates the problem with learning in the US.

When the parent of, say, a fourth grader (here in the US) learns that his child is being left back, required to repeat fourth grade, that parent typically raises hell at the school, blames the teachers, and won’t shut up until the principal capitulates and agrees to promote the child.

In a country like Japan, however, the parent of the fourth grader who IS promoted will be anxious and ask the teachers: Has my child learned everything necessary? Is he truly ready to move on?

[quote]I’m in my mid-60s.

Then you ain't got time to write such long screeds.

You need to be studying for the final exam.

R111, that’s what my friends keep reminding me.

I'm glad you took that in the spirit it was intended, r112, which was nothing more than a joke.

With Klangerine's indictment, I'm just in a giddy mood. Glad to see you have a sense of humor, too.

R111, when you make boneheaded moves as often as I do, a sense of humor not only helps. It prevents real damage.

Re TFG, I’m not yet giddy. But show me a cop or a bailiff approaching him with handcuffs and I’ll be downright delirious.

[quote] Furthermore, the proportion of students who graduate high school with genuine 12th-grade level skills just keeps dropping and dropping.

As spending per student rises.

I taught children with minimal reading comprehension skills. These learning disabled kids could read/say words. Unfortunately, they were unable to process and understand many of the words they were saying, because all they were really doing was saying words they saw on paper. Once they learned how to process, everything changed. They finally 'got it'. For instance, have you ever listened to someone read in 'flat', run-on sentences? Nothing makes sense. Sometimes the best fix can be as simple as making use of basic punctuation.

My neighbor here in Deplorable Haven is functionally illiterate. But he makes a great living climbing cell phone towers. Everything he knows how to do he learned from watching YouTube videos and he talks to his cell phone for texting (I guess it talks back -- I'm an old woman, I don't know much about these things). He's a good guy -- I don't know why he can't read, and I'm not going to ask.

My youngest sister has dyslexia, and we had no idea what her problem was back in the 60s. I not only thought she was stupid, but as the eldest of three girls, I made it a point to remind her of it at least daily. My mother spent hours and hours and hours working with my sister while she cried because she didn't understand why she couldn't figure out how to read and write like the rest of the kids could. Looking back, I feel awful about this, but strangely enough, we're really close now. And over time, she learned to read well enough.

She became a very highly paid dental assistant, trusted by her dentist to do a lot of things most assistants wouldn't have the kinesthetic skills to do. So what I learned was not to discount the intelligence of people who are not good readers.

That said, they should stay the hell out of the academic colleges and find employment where they can use the skills they have.

R116

Trump is a perfect example. He reads off teleprompters with no idea of when to pause, stops in the middle of sentences. I really laugh when he is doing that, then riffs with so true, so true. Because that is the first he understood what the hell he was reading. Dense, dense, dense.

I'm wary of someone who posts prose like this to Datalounge—

[quote] I hv posted this video of a boy getting physically assaulted n his possession stolen by a grown ass man but u all saying the transgenders r violent n should be arrested hv not once called fr the arrest fr the assailant n even said anything about these unprovoked attack, no one is buying ur bullshits

Someone on this site who's been posting a lot recently writes like a half-literate person, and they wrote somewhere that the reason they do it has to do with OCD or something.

Our culture is undergoing some extraordinary changes right now, from anti-intellectualism to endless sexual identities to neuro-cognitive differences making it acceptible for people not to learn or conform to effective means of communication to absolute nonsense being communicated by supposed journalists and weaponized to science-based medical practices being refused because of political paranoia to existential risks of climate change and, if one is to believe leading minds of the world, artificial intelligence threatening human existence, and on and on.

I'm really bewildered by it all.

However, both my grandmother and my mother told me as they aged, based on their own experiences, that at some point "people have to die" because they reach a point of not being able to keep up with societal changes anymore and shutting down cognitively and emotionally.

My grandmother, who I never thought of racist—but of course she was, having been born in Pennsylvania in 1920—desperately wanted Hillary Clinton to become president and desperately did not want Barack Obama to become president because "there's just something about that man I don't trust." She died right before his inauguration. My mother was very, very ill for years and would have lost her life anyway, but she was an extremely liberal person—she styled herself as a hippie all her life; you'd know her politics at a glance if you saw her—and very politically engaged and an activist, and she died just before Donald Trump was inauguruated. I honestly think that had she not been so sick, just the heartache caused to her by Trump's presidency and by COVID might have stressed her system to death. I know I lost years of my life panicking while he was president.

I will be 45 in May, hardly an old man, but changes are taking place so rapidly these days that I do feel I am close to being outmoded. There are unprecedented technological changes, societal changes, political changes, environmental changes, language changes, global economic changes—just so much to adapt to in such a short period of time.

It's weird because the importance of this really pales by comparison to the others discussed above, but one of the first changes I learned of that really rocked me in my early 30s was learning my boss's super-spoiled children, who grew up rich and connected and on track to go to elite universities, never learned to write in cursive and could not read it. I always thought of cursive writing as basically printed letters connected to one another, but they were indecipherable as a foreign language to these girls. How will they sign their names, I asked my boss. He said that was a good question. Time passed and digital signatures came along, or block-letter printing on forms that require signatures by hand are becoming normalized.

To my generation, printing your name instead of signing it with a cursive signature indeed would bring a person's literacy into question.

Perhaps Gen Z and whomever come next will sign with an X like illiterate enslaved people did as they become reliant on and in some ways enslaved by AI programs.

R119 I have a feeling most people on DL would prefer to read a post like that than a long post or a post whose every sentence is not divided by line breaks.

I've been chastised here multiple times by not "using paragraphs," with some people telling me it's "impossible" to read large blocks of words.

The thing is, I always write in paragraphs. I was taught that paragraphs are used to group thoughts together, as I am doing in this "block of words." Sometimes that means quite a few sentences together within a paragraph.

But thanks to the Internet and journalism written at the third- to fifth-grade reading levels, people now understand "paragraph" to mean a hard return after every single sentence, and many do seem to be cognitively incapable of reading multiple sentences strung together into actual paragraphs.

I would consider that to be functionally illiterate or at least a variation of that.

[quote] I would consider that to be functionally illiterate or at least a variation of that.

What is it that you consider to be functionally illiterate? Your third paragraph or your fourth?

R122 The inability to read paragraphs makes a person functionally illiterate.

If a person can only read single, simple sentences in isolation, then a person certainly is not capable of understanding legal agreements, income-tax forms, and so on.

OMG. More people who think cursive is the answer.

Speak of the devil, someone just posted this in another thread and I had to share it here.

[quote] i love brutalism, it comm strength & stability which is something 2 b desired in this age of chinese wayfair gingerbread home **************** Wtf? "It comm"? Are you a machine?

If this is organic humanspeak these days, then god bless the AI chatbot takeover of humanity.

R124 Cursive is not THE answer, but it does have value.

Another problem with cursive is that few teachers now are capable of teaching cursive handwriting properly. However, writing and the skills required are linked to visual-motor skills, such as eye-hand coordination, and are associated with academic achievement. Developing fine motor skills in early childhood can predict not only writing success, but better performance in reading and math in elementary school. Beginning with learning to print correctly, then cursive later on.

R14 nailed it. I have a friend who retired after teaching her whole life and was disgusted since around the late 80s/early 90s when school budgets were made dependent on testing. She said that's all the admins cared about.

R125 that was me replying to that incomprehensible mess.

[quote]Trump is a perfect example. He reads off teleprompters with no idea of when to pause, stops in the middle of sentences.

His magats are always guffawing at Democrats for reading off teleprompters, not realizing Trump is trying and failing to.

[quote] I've been chastised here multiple times by not "using paragraphs," with some people telling me it's "impossible" to read large blocks of words.

[quote]The thing is, I always write in paragraphs. I was taught that paragraphs are used to group thoughts together, as I am doing in this "block of words." Sometimes that means quite a few sentences together within a paragraph.

The distinction you're failing to make, r120, is that, at least for me, large blocks of text are [italic]only difficult to read on a computer[/italic]. I have no problem with it when reading a book, even on a kindle book. Why this is, I don't know. But I've read and heard that I'm not the only one with this problem.

[quote]But thanks to the Internet and journalism written at the third- to fifth-grade reading levels, people now understand "paragraph" to mean a hard return after every single sentence, and many do seem to be cognitively incapable of reading multiple sentences strung together into actual paragraphs.

It has nothing to do with reading levels, and it's not about "a hard return after every single sentence." Every five lines is a good breaking point. Also, if I have to read longer than that, I can, but it is visually more difficult.

[quote]I would consider that to be functionally illiterate or at least a variation of that.

I'm anything but illiterate. I have been reading since I was three. No one taught me. My parents discovered I could read at the supermarket, when I started pointing at things like "Joy" or "ice cream" or "ground round."

I wonder how many of us have difficulty with reading more than a five-line block of text on a computer.

There was a girl who lived across the street from me and she couldn't read. She became an adult and got a tutor and still couldn't read. She was in her 30's and had another tutor and she still couldn't read. I am going to guess that there was something in her brain that prevented her from learning to read. Her entire family was able to read. She tried so hard and has never been able to read. She is in her 50's now.

Its' becuZ to many of them lay around and eat Cheetos all the time.

[quote]The distinction you're failing to make, [R120], is that, at least for me, large blocks of text are only difficult to read on a computer. I have no problem with it when reading a book, even on a kindle book. Why this is, I don't know. But I've read and heard that I'm not the only one with this problem.

You're not. Not by a long shot. Indeed, some studies were done on it and they were linked in another thread. Unfortunately, I don't remember which thread, but it's not a unique circumstance.

R57, while living in the south, I became good friends with a woman I will call Sheila.

Sheila was really funny, & I immediately liked her. She was my supervisor, & we became great friends, almost instantly.

She was your typical southerner, who loved Trump. She was also pseudo literate.

Eventually, I revealed to her that I am an atheist. She was utterly blown away, & couldn’t understand why. She was convinced that it was because I am a liberal. Nope.

Because she wasn’t well read or educated, it took about a year of hours long conversations, before she finally came around. She renounced Trump, & began seriously questioning her religious beliefs.

What I learned during this time, is that it was difficult for her to understand ideas in abstraction. So I quickly learned that when presenting thought experiments to her, it was best to just keep it really simple. Thought experiments SHOULD be as simple as possible, anyhow, IMHO.

That stated, it worked!

I was never snooty towards her. I never behaved as I was better than others, because I’m not. I am very happy that she eventually understood why Q-Anon is total bullshit, & that she eventually came to understand why the current GOP, is so dangerous to her, and her child.

It’s REALLY important to meet people where they’re at.

Most people who are touting fucked up ideas, aren’t genuinely awful people. Many just do not know any better, due to the environment they grew up in. They’re being lied to, & exploited by those who understand their vulnerabilities explicitly, and hence, go for their jugular in a ideological sense.

[quote] I never met an adult that can't read, but I did have an ex that attended one of the shittiest performing inner city schools -- would often flip shit if I used any (perceived) "fancy" words. For example, I'd say something like "what we you insinuating with that comment?" And he'd lose it, screaming "stop trying to be smart!" I don't even consider myself to be highly educated or to have that great of a vocabulary. You could tell it was very upsetting for him. Both my grandparents left school in their early teens, but could at least read enough to be successful.

I have a friend whose mother is like that. My friend was a victim of sexual assault as a teenager and she later decided she wanted to work with sexual abuse and assault victims. She went to college and grad school and is a licensed clinical social worker. Most of her client base is sexual abuse/assault victims and then she has clients dealing with PTSD issues. My friend has said it's hard to separate the vocabulary and terms she uses in her professional life from her personal life. She said that when she spends a good amount of her working hours on client notes, reports, or referrals- she can't shut off using or saying those words or terms when you're talking with friends or family outside of work. She has said there have been many times when she says certain words or terms when she's talking with her mom and her mom flips out. It has caused a strain on their relationship.

With all due respect to what R121 is saying, I respectfully disagree.

Readability for online, including blogs, etc. IS very different that in print. Spacing and kerning is different, and the white space available on a printed page is simply not there in the same proportions on a webpage.

Does it need to be a new paragraph for every sentence? No, of course not. And some online writing is terrible, especially on many news sites, because those sites are employing dim-witted interns who barely know how to write themselves.

I'd sooner argue that texting/messaging is actually doing more damage to the younger generation's ability to organize and then subsequently write and share their thoughts - whether it be a written paper or an online blog.

R14 you know when people say things like this I get a taken aback. I grew up with the Stanford 9; reading comprehension was a big part of the test. Have they removed that portion from standardized testing. It just seems like no matter what manipulated or calculated measures implemented by educators, if you cannot read or read proficiently you would not be able to pass that portion.

Edoocashun is fundimentle. U can do docktor skool like me. But the more big money is sex.

Let’s not even get INTO mastering cursive!

I noticed this in college. Besides not reading well, a lot of folks just couldn't write a basic essay. When it came time to swap papers for proofreading and notes, I was amazed at how many people could not string together two sentences. I kept thinking, "how did these people graduate high school?"

My neighbor, when I was growing up, was a fantastic auto mechanic. He could fix just about anything. I still remember receiving an invoice from him with the words "replaced spair tire."

Like others here, I've been reading since before I entered kindergarten. I love to read and take my iPad mini almost everywhere I go so that I can read on the Kindle app. I can't imagine not being able to read or understand something.

I was born in August. All summer my pregnant mother would lounge on the terrace, reading. On bright days I was able to read along from the womb. She had trashy taste in literature, my mom. I think Henry Miller turned me gay.

MARY!

It's amazing, R140. An acquaintance once asked me to review her daughter's college application "essay". This "essay" was one giant paragraph of non-sensical prose filled with spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors. I was horrified. This kid was not in a remedial track at school or otherwise identified as having learning deficiencies. She was in the average track and apparently earned decent grades. Yet, she could not successfully write a simple essay.

I grew up in the deep, deep South and went to public schools in an impoverished area in an already impoverished state. We wrote term papers that included footnotes and citations by the sixth grade. We wrote thematic reports organized by paragraphs by the third grade. This was in the 80s and 90s. It is terrifying to see standards fall so quickly.

R144 wow that’s very sad indeed. And you are right how standards keep falling. I have older relatives who went to segregated schools in the south that read and write better than today’s youth. Some of them even assert the segregated schools were better than some of the “integrated” ghetto schools that replaced them.

The ghettofication and dumbing down of American culture?

[quote]So many people cannot read This is not a Karen thread or a complaining one, I'm just very surprised how many people get to be adults and still cannot read.

Or write, apparently.

You know it’s funny, I’m watching the local news right now. They’re doing a spotlight on a woman who is about to receive her PHD at UC San Diego. The showed one of her lectures and she is not even conjugating her verbs. I guess we should give her pass because she grew up in foster care. She seemed lovely overall and I’m glad to a see a sistah make it but Gheesh. Her public speaking and diction really wasn’t that of a PHD accredited professor.

[quote] I guess we should give her pass because she grew up in foster care.

What kind of pass did she have and to whom should we surrender it, r147?

Why have schools stopped teaching cursive writing ... anyone know?

r149 It's so future generations won't be able to read the original copy of The Constitution after they rewrite it digitally and burn all history books printed before 2001.

R147 Question - doctorate in what domain?

Comment - if she speaks "African-American Vernacular English (AAVE)" - how very dare you!

Cursive writing is #3 on the Nellie Prisspot's Bill of Concerns, higher on the list than, say, affordable bathhouses but below the right to have a live person ring up your groceries and of course, the right to write checks.

[quote] I noticed this in college. Besides not reading well, a lot of folks just couldn't write a basic essay. When it came time to swap papers for proofreading and notes, I was amazed at how many people could not string together two sentences. I kept thinking, "how did these people graduate high school?"

Some high schools are awful when it comes to teaching English composition.

r120 I am exactly your age and I'm also befuddled as to why the younger generation can't read cursive. Like you said, I've also seen cursive simply as letters connected together. I don't understand why it would look like a foreign language to a person already familiar with printed letters.

And yes, for people of our generation signing your signature in print letters in cursive would bring your literacy into question. I guess that's not a thing anymore. It's hard to break habits that were drilled into your head at a very young age.

I'm not one of those people who rails about cursive disappearing however. Unlike other DLers. You have to adapt with changing times.

Whoops, that should have been "And yes, for people of our generation signing your signature in print letters INSTEAD of cursive would bring your literacy into question."

Sorry!

[quote] Life went on for me. But that poor lady at the post office has horrible reading and writing skills.

Odds on this being a diversity hire ?