Does the gender fad even make sense?

It's true, OP, the whole philosophy coming out of the Trans movement is completely illogical, and often contradictory.

Identifying as something does not make you that thing, any more that identifying as rich puts money in your bank account. Moreover, the trans who believe in a rigid gender binary where liking dresses makes you female and liking flannel shirts makes you male, and the non-binaries and genderqueers believing in mixing up gender expression and screwing with the supposed binary. I wish trans people the best in life, and I totally support your right to live how you want to live, but for fuck's sake stop with the bullshit philosophy!

r1 I agree up until "I totally support your right to live how you want to live". They will continue to perpetuate their bullshit philosophy as long as people enable their delusions. This laissez faire attitude got us into this mess.

Same, I never felt like a man and felt kinda excluded from guy company all my life as a result, though I have no problem with my male body. I don't need to announce this circumstance to people, however, as it has exactly zero bearing on anything. Sexual orientation comes up now and then, but I don't even think about my gender identity or lack thereof as it's simply not a motivating factor in my life. It's just sort of there, like my distaste for seafood.

It's all about attention with these people. Narcissists found another angle to make everything about themselves, and latched onto it. You better memorise their name AND their pronouns, [italic]or else.[/italic]

Trans dysmorphia actually makes tons of sense of me. Because I DO know what being a male is supposed to feel like. I think we all do. So I reject that claim by you, OP.

Plus, you touched on it yourself: American boys are supposed to like football. We are taught this. Now, I don't. And for whatever reason, that doesn't make me female at all. It just makes me a male who doesn't like football.

However, I could imagine, if a bunch of those "football" instances piled up? Stacking up high in the mind of an "boy"? It might make them believe that they can't be, in any way, a boy. Since all the things boys are supposed to love and cherish, this "boy" simply doesn't.

I get that. Intellectually.

But of course, it doesn't mean, at all, that the "boy" is suddenly a girl! It just means the boy doesn't conform to gender norms. Which is totally cool. Still, I think that boy should be able to make the transition to a girl if it's the choice that gives them peace. 100%. It would be cruel and bigoted to do otherwise: However, we can't say this new transwoman is a woman. Because she's not. She's a transwoman. And that's cool and should be valued. But she's NOT a bio woman. Not now or ever.

So I have no issue with transpeople in this respect. Again, I want every adult human to be at peace if at all possible. Who wouldn't?

Now non binary "transfolks" are just gaslighters. Clearly. That's just bad performance art.

If none of you care how someone identifies, why do you care so much how someone identifies.

Many of this young folks are fighting boomer stereotypes, who are elders now. Their parents are probably Generation X and we grow up fighting with the stereotypes; feminine men, manly women and some androgynous people were normal and you don't need a new identity and force others to change the way they talk to feel comfortable in your own skin. But part to be young (and stupid) is to shock your parents, so here we are.

Maybe before posing the question in bad faith, ask any psychologist or read up on it. TERFS and other genders fascists and LGB quislings still somehow think they can gaslihting the very real existence of gender identity as an organizing principle of the psyche and somehow ignore mental and medical health science when spouting their BuT BiOlOgY. Of course gender identity wouldn't be an issue when there's congruence between your assigned gender and your physical sex. And yes, gender identity is ALSO bilogical in nature,. It's inherent and grasped from the age of 3 or 4.

Honey, loads of us don't give a rat's ass about our own gender identity!

I know I don't fit into anyone's idea of what a manly man or a womanly woman ought to be, but I don't care because I don't identify as either gender... I identify as *me*. Other people's idea about sex and gender are simply irrelevant to my personal identity.

Yes, there are people whose self-image is seriously at odds with societal expectations and they have my support as they live their lives, but in general, we are not doing young people any favors by telling them to think hard about their gender identity. It's a non-issue for most people.

[quote] However, I could imagine, if a bunch of those "football" instances piled up? Stacking up high in the mind of an "boy"? It might make them believe that they can't be, in any way, a boy.

Gee, all they have to do is look between their legs.

It was all so simple then, R9.

Nobody feels like a woman or a man. gender is a performance. No one knows what anybody feels. I want someone to explain what a woman or a man feels, go ahead I'm waiting.

[quote] The “my gender doesn’t match my sex” rhetoric seems like it’s based more on gender stereotypes and expectations than anything innate. Put another way, my hatred of football doesn’t make me a “woman” any more than liking both football and the color pink makes someone sexless.

Feel free to have an opinion, OP. Just remember, you're a sample size of 1.

Trans obsession thread from Uncle Bigot.

read some radical feminist literature and know your place

I’ve always thought after read nonbinary threads, that the entire ‘non binary’ position is only about strict stereotypes. The definition of male or masculinity is always along the ‘toxic’ lines, then for women, it’s that hyper feminine instrgram trope. Than anything not that is ‘non binary’.

It’s so dumb. The really astounding thing is this got purchase in educational settings, coupled with support for ‘Diversity’ and then pushed onto the kids as progressive. It’s the opposite of progress.

Hope it fades soon, it seems to be, but neurodiversity seems to be becoming the new choice of identity for the younger kids, replacing the gender framework.

[quote]The “my gender doesn’t match my sex” rhetoric seems like it’s based more on gender stereotypes and expectations than anything innate.

That's exactly what it is, which is why the trans movement is so regressive on a societal level.

I've always been a gender non-conforming and masculine-presenting female. When I was younger, I had no problems "identifying" myself as a girl because I just knew that's what I was. I just happened to be a tomboy.

As I got older, though, and noticed that I wasn't "developing" like my female peers and stayed rather "flat" I did start to feel less like a girl but only because I was being programmed with the stereotypes of what it meant to be a teenage girl. By the time I was an adult (and those damn tit STILL barely came in), I did struggle with referring to myself as a woman even though that is 100% what I am. Why? Because I had been led to believe that to be a "real woman" you had to have prominent boobs. It wasn't until my mother pointed out that, apparently, "the matronly genes" didn't miss my ass that I started to feel comfortable referring to myself as a woman.

Yes, that's fairly sad because again, it's about stereotypes of what it means to be a "real man" or a "real woman." Trans reinforce these stereotypes in spades. The only criteria for being a real man/woman is to be an adult, human, male/female. That's it. All of the rest is sociological noise.

The two main issues here seem to be MTF who are autogynophiles, and FTM who are masculine lesbians with identity issues.

[quote]Maybe before posing the question in bad faith, ask any psychologist or read up on it. TERFS and other genders fascists and LGB quislings still somehow think they can gaslihting the very real existence of gender identity as an organizing principle of the psyche and somehow ignore mental and medical health science when spouting their BuT BiOlOgY. Of course gender identity wouldn't be an issue when there's congruence between your assigned gender and your physical sex. And yes, gender identity is ALSO bilogical in nature,. It's inherent and grasped from the age of 3 or 4.

^^ Christ, this is all complete nonsense.

“Gender identity” is “biological”? Umm, no. Where do you think it’s located, exactly?

“Read up on it” — you think we haven’t?

“Medical health science” — such as?

“Gender identity is grasped at the age of 3 or 4” — really? Toddlers know? They don’t know SHIT, bruh.

‘Identity’ is nothing. It means nothing, and requires nothing, to self-identify as anything. It is not an objective, observable, falsifiable thing. You either are a thing or you’re not.

‘Gender identity’ is only important to people who buy into this nonsense. Any person who *wishes* they were the opposite sex/gender, isn’t *actually* the opposite sex/gender. They can ‘identify’ with/as the opposite sex all the way, but it doesn’t make it true. What are they even identifying with? How do they “know” they’re not the sex they are? Of course they aren’t the opposite sex, and wishing they were isn’t going to make them the opposite sex. I mean, how could it?

It’s all illogical nonsense. And non-binary is the most nonsensical of all.

[quote]Because I DO know what being a male is supposed to feel like. I think we all do. So I reject that claim by you, OP.

Huh? How do you know what it’s supposed to feel like?

R10 - The Way We Were ok then.

My dad was born in 1939. Privately and nonsexually, he identified as a woman. I get that you guys don't want to believe it happens, but it does. I'm glad he lived to see it more socially acceptable.

R24: I do understand that it happens, but the transvestite autogynes have clouded the issue, shall we say?

Did he ever explain to you what that meant to him, R24? To “identify as a woman” (especially in a non-sexual way)?

R24 your dad was a transvestite. It is a sick sexual fetish. He might as well been in blackface. That is what this is. It is just like blackface.

He might not have been a transvestite. R24 said it was non-sexual.

Men who aren’t particularly feminine in manner and also aren’t autogynephiles but identity as women, are quite rare. I’m curious to hear more about this. I would ask so many questions: when did you first get this feeling of being a woman? What made you think you weren’t a man? How did you know you were “really” a woman?

It’s just mental illness when you get right down to it, nothing more than that. It’s very, very similar to people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder. “I know I’m not supposed to have both arms. I need you, doctor, to amputate this limb that I’m not supposed to have, and if you don’t, I’ll let a train run over it … and I may not survive.”

Starting this with an anecdote. Early 2000’s an email came out from HR at my workplace if about 75 people, that Jane Doe in another department (who was a pretty masculine presenting female) is now John Doe. Please respect John by referring to him as such …he…etc etc. there was some other stuff I no longer recall but it wasn’t a long thing. While surprised as I read it, more because it was something I didn’t encounter before, I did what everyone else did which was refer to him as he wanted to and the how and why and mechanics of things weren’t any of my business. And that was kind of it. I thought good for him taking such a big step and knowing he needed to do this to be happy. A work friend who knew him a little better than me had the opportunity to ask him later how things had been going in within the office in the months since the change and he said it was fine. Maybe smoother than he expected. Some blips like being accidentally referred to by his old name and occasionally ‘she’ etc and some people seeming a little skittish or uncomfortable at first but that’s all fine it’s a change and it doesn’t happen anymore now that people are used to it. Done.

And here we are over 20 years later and I hear comments like r13 all the time in social media etc.and it’s become so confusing that I have gone from being cool with whatever choice someone makes on this - to feeling like I’m a “bigot” or guilty party for being “cis” or stupid by trying to ask questions to help me better understand today what I thought I already did understand almost 20 years ago, when Jane at the office became John.

To trans folks reading this please be angry at all of us even if we occasionally slip up. You might find you have more allies than you think!

Please *don’t* be angry (typo missed word at r29

[quote]To trans folks reading this please be angry at all of us even if we occasionally slip up.

Ohhhhh honey, we are NEVER NOT angry! Believe me! 🔪

Maybe most trans people are similar to “John Doe” at r29? It’s the extreme caricatures/sterotypes that some take on to push the envelope of people’s tolerance that I don’t believe helps the trans cause. Case on point that highschool teacher in Canada with the massive prosthetic boobs. A CIS female would have been fired for dressing that way in class with the protruding nipples and micro mini etc. but this person gets to show up like that in the name of trans rights. Just an example. There are others. Why stir the pot this way. It breeds contempt.

I’ve long thought (and still state semi-publicly, if usually anonymously) that most trans-identified people are lying low and aren’t like the really abrasive radical TRAs with the insane ideology and demands. But I really don’t know anymore. Maybe it’s 80/20, reasonable to unreasonable. Maybe it’s 50/50.

As far as I know, there isn’t current polling of only trans-identified people to determine which beliefs they hold, the way there is of the general public re: trans issues.

[quote] I would ask so many questions: when did you first get this feeling of being a woman? What made you think you weren’t a man? How did you know you were “really” a woman?

How bolshie of you R28. I think the answer to every one of your questions would be to mind your own fucking business.

Nope, R34. We are going to debate this. I know that’s something you’re terrified of. For what reason, I cannot imagine.

It’s ok to wonder these things though isn’t it r34? Even though one would never ask (I don't think anyway). I sort of wish a trans person would volunteer the answers at some point because I know I’d love to better understand it.

r36 Blaire White and Buck Angel are two individuals who I believe have articulated gender dysphoria and being trans in the most reasonable and non-confrontational manners that I have ever heard.

In fact, it's because of them that I grew to accept and understand trans people more. Most of them really just want to blend in society, stay lowkey, and be left alone.

Sadly, the ones who have been getting the most attention have given the trans community a horrible reputation, now. And it's the mostly silent ones who suffer for it. And yes, they're pissed about the radicals just like everyone else.

Blaire White and Buck Angel both basically concede it’s a mental illness, right?

r38 Yep. They sure do. And they tend to be called transphobic for it on a regular basis by the radical TRAs.

I yearn for the day when toys are just toys, & clothes are just clothes.

Kids can play football or dress up or climb trees or like pink or blue or purple or whatever they want.

I can only compare it to going to a re-education camp to learn to be straight. I could fake it for a while, but I would be out of place and miserable.

If I survived the depression, I'd eventually disappear from Breederland and revert to homosexuality.

@38 …and treating a mental illness with mutilating surgery seems about as good an idea as the last time it was standard practice.

Compare what to conversion therapy, GWM?

In ‘96 I was an undergrad Lit major & had to read a ton of litcrit theory: Marxist, Feminist, Structuralist, etc. The main feminist essayist we read was Judith Butler & her book Gender Trouble. Her ideas of gender as a performative construct seemed so novel tome then, now it’s kinda de rigueur.

That happened to me, R36. I had an online friend who I assumed was a woman. She read a post of mine saying I wished a trans person would explain it all to me, and replied that he's a trans man and would happily answer all my questions. "What exactly does it mean to 'feel like' the opposite sex" was my first one, and the very sensible answer was that the "feeling" was not an emotion but a physical sensation. To wit, before he transitioned he'd be constantly bumping into furniture because in her mind she had narrow hips and no tits. This, he said, is precisely the meaning of body dysphoria, and he believed it was about a discrepancy between his mental map of his body and the real thing. "But I don't have a mental map of MY body", I said, to which he replied that I'm just not aware of it because there's no discrepancy (as R7 noted). I looked it up on some neurological sites, and indeed it turns out that there is such a thing as a mental body map; in fact, there are many, to be used by different brain "departments". In this way, body dysmorphia does have something in common with Body Integrity Identity Disorder, as R28 points out: that, too, is all about a screwed-up mental map. I certainly don't have any ideas of how either of those conditions can be helped, but I do find it peculiar that no surgeon would remove somebody's arm or leg yet they' gladly chop off their tits or dick.

I haven’t read Butler (and don’t want to, ever) but recently I’ve heard that the current gender ID ideology is the extremely dumbed down and misinterpreted version of Judith Butler’s already incomprehensible nonsense.

R35 who’s terrified? I just said it would be rude as fuck to probe someone with such personal questions when it’s none of their business?

R36 again poster said he would ask the person those (loaded) questions.

And just because the rest of you say something is a mental illness doesn’t mean it is. Can’t you imagine someone else having a different life experience than you? Isn’t that what homophobia is based on?

That’s interesting, R45. I wonder if that mental map of the body was something that was always there for that person (or at least upon reaching adulthood, let’s say), or if it was something that developed over time in tandem with the cross-sex identity.

Neuroplasticity is a fascinating topic.

Don't worry, OP, after the Groypers are finished with the "gender people", all their attention will be on you.

R45 and yet, no amount of surgery or hormones will give an adult FTM transsexual narrow hips.

I suppose if they go on puberty blockers at a a very young age, before the wide hips develop, and then graduate to cross-sex hormones, they could avoid it, but your friend who already has the wide hips is stuck with them for life.

In fact, those wide, child-bearing hips are one of the dead giveaways of an FTM, no matter how thick the beard or how hairy the chest or how big the biceps.

R47, you’re being a bit naïve as well as ableist. Do you realize that when you bristle at someone calling an obvious mental illness what it is, that all you’re doing is further stigmatizing mental illnesses of all kinds? It’s not intended as an INSULT. I don’t know if you’re aware of that.

There are obviously plenty of trans people who are happy to talk about their gender dysphoria and trans identity. Don’t you know what TRAs on Twitter always end up saying? “Talk to some trans people, please.” You’re telling me that asking questions about why they feel the way they do is beyond the pale.

No.

R11 I definitely don’t feel like a woman because I don’t menstruate. I also don’t know what it’s like to pee through a vagina or feel my vagina being penetrated because I don’t have one.

I believe those things are feeling like a woman.

As for feeling like a man, it’s best described in Jumanji 2 when a teenage girl gets switched into Jack Black’s body.

It doesn't make sense, because they are making it up as they go along.

Homosexuality is now "same gender attraction" rather than "same sex attraction", yet we're told that "non-binary" is a legitimate gender, and also that you can be a "non-binary lesbian" or a "non-binary gay man", which would mean that you're NOT "same-gender attracted".

Two completely contrary ideas, yet both a part of the new gender gospel.

Remember that their ultimate goal is the eradication of the very idea of biological sex. This is not for any evil, nefarious reason, it's just because it's an idea that causes them a lot of mental anguish, and they believe that if they can convince enough people that biological sex doesn't exist, their mental anguish will magically disappear.

R48, he did say that he didn't realize he was a man until after puberty, but that ever since he could remember he knew there was something askew. That he 'd always felt the real Mark was inside and invisible, controlling the body and making it put on an elaborate act. That would seem to indicate he was born with the map.

[quote] This is not for any evil, nefarious reason

Yes it is. They want to destabilise society.

Karl Marx failed in killing off capitalism so the kids want to kill off our society.

Can you make sense OP or should I say Boris?

R55, there are likely some gender ID ideologues who might match your description, the ones with the hammer-and-sickle in their Twitter bios or whatever, but most of the radical ones interested in dismantling the very idea of biological sex are doing it for the reason R53 stated.

Just like there are different groups of people who abhor or merely disagree with gender ID ideology for different reasons, different trans people think what they think for different reasons. Best not to lump them all together. That’s what the TRA assholes on DL do—anyone who questions this stuff is “in bed with far-right” or are actually “the far-right” or Russian trolls, or Christian fundies, etc. No! We all have our different reasons for opposing this ideology.

Sorry for the tangent rant.

And right on cue, at R56… 🙄

It is impossible to imagine what it "feels like" to be anything outside your own experience. This is the most basic truth of human existence. You can't even know what it's like to be another -being-, let alone -kind- of being. It's no less true when talking about gender as it is for genus or species.

Wear a dress, like blue, hate football, like musicals, cross your legs, shave your head, fuck a man, fuck a woman, grow a mustache, call yourself Daisy or Butch.. Do whatever you want. B ut for F's sake, stop reinforcing stereotypes by declaring yourself to be trans.

This is why I have way more respect for people being non-binary, though I think it's a stupid-ass word.

[quote] non-binary … a stupid-ass word.

Demi-quaternary, stupid donkey.

Non-donkey? Beware of any thing that require new words and NEGATIVE words.

[quote]I also don’t know what it’s like to pee through a vagina

Nor do females, r52. Females pee through the urethra. The vagina is a completely separate hole. Females have two holes down there; the urethra (urine), and vagina (child birth et al).

R59 is just so dumb. Bio females don't go the transman route just to watch football as it's always been acceptable in the past 4 decades(at least) in the US for women to do so, They do so because their birth body doesn't match their brain.

R61 right I forgot. Which shows you proof men don’t know what it’s like to be a woman.

r63 Bingo.

And vice versa.

R63 Transmen also "don't know how to be a woman".

Non-binary is not a remotely respectable identity. Many such people aren’t gender non-conforming, and they tell people all the time it has nothing to do with stereotypes. They quite pointedly refuse to acknowledge that they are either men or women; they claim to be neither, and the most nuanced explanation you can tease out of them (if you can manage to get them to try to explain it at all) is that they have a sort of sexless ‘soul’ in them. And that unobservable part of themselves—neither man ‘soul’ nor woman ‘soul’—trumps the reality of their biological sex.

It’s UTTER NONSENSE.

Then of course there are the NBs for whom the identity IS all about stereotypes and society’s expectations. Which is equally nonsensical.

Funny thing, r65, is that no woman knows “how to be a woman” — they just ARE women if they are adult females of the human species.

[quote]I also don’t know what it’s like to pee through a vagina

R52, neither do women.

Sorry, the previous response wasn't showing when I posted. R68

Look at me! Look at me!

R65 That’s interesting because from what I’ve seen, they use tampons, get pregnant, and give birth. Which is an acknowledgment they were born in the correct bodies.

Maybe Adam & Eve never happened...?

And the Book of Genesis is just a dumb story?

And male and female segregations are ... made up.

"Pink" is a girl's color....

This new fad is a negative.

It's bogus and it knows it's bogus. And this fad will pass.

Similarly, the Protestant Church was another negative. It may have but lasted for 450 years but it's definitely going to die in our lifetime.

I remember watching a standup where someone said if men menstruated, they’d be wearing their backup tampons behind their ears like cigarettes.

There is a link between autism and all this stuff. There has to be. So many gays are aspies.

R71, ALL of them do? That's news to me. Talk about a gender essentialist who reinforces stereotypes.

R73 No. It’s a scene like punk and goths.

And I think it’s generational.

I’m a millennial, we are the most tattooed generation of them all. It’s dying off with Gen Z and tattoo removal is growing.

It was a trend. When I was in high school (2001-2005), heavily tattooed people were skateboarders and black and latinos who listened to rap. Aside from that, you’d have blue collared people with the odd tramp stamp or Barb wire tattoo.

I feel like when MySpace took off and the emo scene took off, everyone was getting covered in tattoos. Sleeves became fashionable on girls. When really suburban white kids started getting sleeves, it was over the top.

And I think too, my generation of men, the men that didn’t go to college and would have wound up doing construction / trade was like “we don’t want to do hard labor” so they became tattoo artists and it became a huge culture online and it was a way to make money without having to be a roofer or whatever.

But it’s definitely died down. When I’m on Instagram you can tell peoples age by their tattoos at this point.

R76 What is reinforcing stereotypes about biological females using tampons?

You’re a nutcase.

But yes my point still stands. This is why people are saying men can get pregnant and use tampons.

There is definitely a correlation between autism and trans; BPD and trans; etc.

[quote][R71], ALL of them do? That's news to me. Talk about a gender essentialist who reinforces stereotypes.

Menstruation and pregnancy have nothing to do with gender identity and everything to do with biological sex. And they are NOT stereotypes.

When I read replies like the above, my belief that gender ideologues are just stupid is reinforced.

I was born female. From an early age, I liked boys clothing and toys and I hated Barbies and dolls and all the frilly things my sister loved. Luckily, I was born during the time when a girl who liked boys things was considered a tomboy. I loved that word growing up. My grandma used to say, "She's just a tomboy like I was!" And she was right. As I grew older, I was still more into boy stuff than girls...Star Wars, The Dukes of Hazzard, Knight Rider, wearing pants and rough housing. Most of the boys in Junior High always picked me first for team sports because I was good at sports, especially baseball. I loved playing with the boys because the girls sucked at sports unless it was volleyball and volleyball hurt my hands. I wore a Dodgers uniform to school on many occasions. Absolutely no one at school made fun of me and I was actually pretty popular as I played trumpet in the school band and was pretty good. I never thought of myself as anything BUT a girl though. I got my period at 11 and am now in menopause so I had 42 years of bleeding monthly.

I was in college when I discovered I was a lesbian. At first I was like, "Oh, I'm not gay, I'm just in love with Sarah." Then after Sarah came Jane and on and on. I finally admitted I was a lesbian during my mid 20s and my sister came out around the same time. So we were two very different females with two very different interests...sister wore dresses and was very femme. I wore combat boots and camouflage pants.

We are both lesbians and women. If I had grown up in todays world, I would have been told I was trans. I'm so fucking grateful that I grew up when I did. I think trans folks presume that they "know" what it's like to be a member of the opposite sex but what I find interesting is that I have yet to meet one transwoman who doesn't subscribe to the stereotypes of dresses, make up, heels, etc. In fact, most of them are caricatures of what they think a "woman" is supposed to be. Transmen dress like lesbians who like to wear men's clothing because that's what they are. Transwomen who insist that lesbians should want to suck their lady dicks and use the word TERF are the absolute worst. They invade women's spaces and demand we call them by their stupid made up female names. "Queers" are just people who's genitals tingled when they thought of a same sex person once and they so desperately want to belong to something to feel special that they had to commandeer a slur to describe themselves.

Non binaries are usually mentally ill. I know onw who has changed her name 5 times in the last year and got pissed when she couldn't sign a legal contract using her made up name. They are stunted emotionally and usually pretty combative so they look for any reason to get pissed off at "cis" folks...whatever that is. It's all a fad and I hope it passes quickly. I miss when it was edgy to just dress in all black and call yourself goth. Kids today all just want to feel special and they secretly wish they were gay or lesbian or trans.

If you have to amputate body parts to feel more like a sex you are not, there is a serious mental thing going on. A LOT of transmen are De-transitioning now as they grow older and realize they were just lesbians. It's quite sad when some of them realize they have fucked up their bodies for life because they bought into the fad of trans. Hell, transwoman who chop off their dicks can never have another orgasm. And women who chop off their tits don't realize that fake tits may look ok if you decide to get them, but they have zero sexual sensation once they are gone. Hormone blockers cause so many health issues that it's ridiculous that doctors go along with this scam.

Brava R81! Great post.

R47 I am r36 and you have conveniently skipped the meaning of what I said so you can continue to angrily split hairs with whoever r35 is.

R35 just worded it differently in a way that didn’t please you.

R47 I am r36 and have not once classed your experience as a mental illness. Stop the blanketing everyone with the same anger you feel.

Nice post, R81.

I've heard from TRAs that transwomen go super femme because they have to in order to pass. But I think TRAs ignore autogynephiles or other kinds of transwomen who have different underlying issues.

Hopefully someone else has I corrected r52. I realize as mostly gay men here it might not be too of mind. Still, I had to go straight to the posting section for:

A basic anatomy lesson!

Women do NOT pee through their vaginas!!!! WTF 😂

We have a hole for pee, and another completely separate hole called the vagina for menstruating, fucking, and having a baby!

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I think it would be fun to be a female for a while. Get some hot guys to go to bed with me. But day-to-day, uh-uh.

One thing I'd hate is the whole get-up: heels, hair, makeup, bra, nails... everything is designed for them to toddle around the world vulnerable and artificial. And that's not me at all.

R81 I don’t think they’re mentally ill.

This sounds awful but women are more driven by hysteria.

Remember when psychics were big in the 80’s and 90’s! It’s mostly women who think they have supernatural powers and can talk to the dead and etc.

And I feel like this queer stuff is the new “I’m special” movement that you saw in psychics of the 80’s and 90’s.

You can look at the Salem Witch Trials and the Halifax Slasher and the daycare rape and exorcisms of the 70’s and 80’s and it’s mostly women.

Men are more psycho but women are more neurotic and this is an example of it.

Current gender movement is 5% actual trans people and 95% adult men with AGP and teenaged girls with autism.

"One thing I'd hate is the whole get-up: heels, hair, makeup, bra, nails... everything is designed for them to toddle around the world vulnerable and artificial. And that's not me at all."

That's not me, either. And I'm a woman.

R87 A lot of women don’t do that shit. Where I am it’s usually sweatshirts, leggings, and Uggz.

I think the biggest thing that separates men from women is hair color. I think something like 70% of women dye their hair. It’s a life long commitment the moment they start doing it as teenagers.

R88, if I went around telling everyone I was a mom when I've never had children, you wouldn't think I was mentally ill?

If I amputated my arm because I always felt that I was an amputee, you wouldn't think I was mentally ill?

Come on now.

R92 True, I’d think you were batshit.

Some people struggle with the gender norm stereotypes and the expectations that come with it.

Let's be honest, we all struggle with at least something in our lives. Is it really too much to ask to ease people's pain and struggle and humor them?

This all feels like a massive backwards step. Gender role fluidity in the 90's (for teenagers at least) was so much more accommodating of just being a person in a body with all the weirdness that entails. But then again, being an influencer and the pressure to brand oneself as a globally-translatable product in tenth grade really didn't exist either.

It's all exploited by the right wing as the so very dangerous woke movement that has to be dealt with, instead of, you know, real issues like healthcare, the economy, infrastructure, adjusting minimum wage to the actual cost of living these days, etc.

Individual expression? Hell to the no! That must be our number one priority! That and protecting children not from guns, but from drag queens reading to them highly controversial books about CRT!

[quote]I think the answer to every one of your questions would be to mind your own fucking business.

"We have too many people being quiet so that other people can be comfortable."

R84 You cannot be president period as a naturalized citizen. You have to be born in the U.S. period.

"Is it really too much to ask to ease people's pain and struggle and humor them?"

Yes, if it means I have to pretend to deny biology and science. These things are true no matter if you believe them or not. So many people today are afraid of doing the "wrong" thing by simply stating the facts. Everyone is afraid of being cancelled so only a few speak the truth (JK Rowling comes to mind). Men cannot become women and women cannot become men. You are asking me to play pretend so that adults can play gender games and dress up. It's basically The Emperor Has No Clothes every day now. We all just play along until the lines between facts and fantasy get blurred and we're changing the definition of facts to fit whatever narrative and individual wants to believe. We cannot sustain this and survive as a species. Imagine if we all still believed there Greek Gods in the skies who were throwing thunderbolts at us. Religion has done this type of brainwashing since the dawn of mankind. Despite any evidence, brainwashed adults still cling to this idea of a god and totally believe that the world was once flooded everywhere and some dude built an ark and loaded animals on it.

It's dangerous when a society says "screw it" to logic and facts on a grand scale. I truly do not want to live in that world if the truth can no longer be spoken.

If I never hear the word gender again, it would still be too soon.

The best response I have heard was from an Italian priest, when asked what he thought about transwomen - "Just wait til they're 50 and their prostate blows up!"

[quote] "Is it really too much to ask to ease people's pain and struggle and humor them?"

[quote] Yes, if it means I have to pretend to deny biology and science. These things are true no matter if you believe them or not.

Is this the kind of religious bullshit, where the world is going to end if someone is allowed to "defy" the laws of science and biology? Is that it? Is someone else doing their own thing that much of a threat to you and your very existence? Does your world end when someone else is making up his or her own rules?

It comes down to total bullshit where people are told that they are inferior by the ones who claim they are superior, because they have "the Bible" or "science" on their side.

R45 I total get that. I’m always bumping into furniture and getting stuck in tight spaces because in my mind I’m 150lb of lean muscle in a swimmer’s body but in reality I’m 300lb of blubber. Reality is a bitch but I just deny it and continue to identify as a lean swimmer.

Gender attemps to dismiss what it relies entirely on. You don't need gender to describe your bio sex but you need sex to define your gender: You're nobinary when you don't fit your bio sex. You're trans when you don't fit your bio sex.

Gender is meaningless to many people. Gender is interpretation of and reaction to bio sex. Gender is not expression but an expression as in a statement. Watching two men (male bodies) fucking doesn't need interpretation. To announce that actually, the men both identify as nonbinary is meaningless to many.

"It comes down to total bullshit where people are told that they are inferior by the ones who claim they are superior, because they have "the Bible" or "science" on their side."

I never said that understanding science and biology makes me "superior" than someone who does not. It means I'm better educated, yes. And when people are more educated, then tend to stop believing in fairy tales and grandiose lies. Saying a man is a woman simply because he dresses like a caricature of a woman does not make him one, no matter how many hormones he takes.

It DOES matter if someone is "making their own rules" in their life. Of course it impacts others. When you live a lie and ask others to go along with that lie by strong arming tactics like threatening people if they don't go along with that lie, well then it affects all of us. Why does my not wanting to participate in someone else's fantasy world concern you, r102? Are you really telling me that I HAVE to do this with a grown adult person because the feelings of someone mentally ill somehow trump those of us who are not? Should we just tell a schizophrenic that the voices he/she hears are real? No we wouldn't because that wouldn't be truthful.

Just seems to me that we're going about all of this backwards. Isn't it easier and far less harmful to try to make the mind match the body rather than altering the body to match the mind?

R101

Great point and it IS ironic you said it in post 101 as it is facing facts, 101.

R91 and, ironically, using hair dye vastly increases your chances of getting breast cancer. Many of us leveraged the pandemic work from home experience to stop.

[quote] It DOES matter if someone is "making their own rules" in their life. Of course it impacts others.

So Gays should stay in the closet, because coming out impacts others? Is that the basis of your argument that trans should not make up their own rules not based on your belief system?

Stop playing with yourself. You’ll go blind.

[quote]And yes, gender identity is ALSO bilogical in nature,

No, it's psychological in nature. Gender dysphoria is a psychological issue. Gender is a human construct. It's an abstract concept.

Women didn't go through years of misery, exploitation, inequality fight for their rights just for a man in a dress with a penis hanging behind it to say " call me a woman, consider me a woman, I have as many rights as a woman does"

I'm an eldergay trying to understand this to deal with NB nieces and cousins. Honestly, it's exhausting just reading about it. Just be who you are, wear what you want, love who you love and STFU about it and face reality. You can not be the belle of the ball and prince charming at the same time. Pick one. And get a job. And stop with the hideous tattoos.

Every day can be Halloween if you want it to be, but make sure you stay in your own lane.

R102 No, “religious bullshit” is demanding people subscribe to your ideology.

R111 Trans women are minorities at this point compared to the number of trans women and female non-binaries. You don’t think it’s a fail for feminism that so many young girls have so much self-hatred as women they choose to be anything else?

A lot of these young girls who identify as trans / non-binary are typically victims of female bullying in high school.

Women can’t talk about safety when a bathroom in a girls high school is just as toxic and COMMON and can lead to bullying, self-hate, depression, and even suicide for young girls.

I very much agree with “TERFS” on a lot of things but they neglect how disgusting women are to each other and what lead to all of this in the first place.

[quote] I very much agree with “TERFS” on a lot of things but they neglect how disgusting women are to each other and what lead to all of this in the first place.

Huh? Women bullying other women is not what has led a bunch of confused teenage girls to fall prey to this social contagion. That might play some part in it, but the main culprits are 1) puberty and the discomfort it brings COMBINED WITH the presence of this social contagion in the culture; and 2) pornography.

R115, transwomen are men — the most powerful group on the planet.

Men now comprise 51% of the planet. Up from 49%. Why? Think about it.

Do you think that trend will reverse itself?

Someday, perhaps within your lifetime, men make up 53% of the world population. What will that be like for children, women & homosexual men? What impact will that have on the environment?

How will that affect democracy — will women be represented in the laws that men create? (They haven’t so far.).

I think we can all agree it will cause even more war.

Feminism didn’t fail girls. Male supremacy did.

The current wave (third?) of feminism is failing girls if it centers men, or promotes ‘intersectionality’ to the detriment of women and girls.

[quote]I think we can all agree it will cause even more war.

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

R115 then they should go and be whatever the fuck they want without calling themselves women. What does a woman mean for them? You have no control over the damn word. if you think everyone has different definitions of a woman, then you are wrong, you all are after the word and the identity because it has an inherent significance and a single meaning. Just want to let you know, being a woman isn't a label you can snatch and stick it on your forehead when you are not one, the word has a meaning, it has a significance, it's not a circus prop, you clown. Go make up your own words and play with them, do whatever the fuck you want.

I just read an article medical study related womens sexual health and while talking about biological facts, the writer / phd also used “vagina owners” instead of women, and “people with penises” instead of men. Never mind that the thing they were writing about is physically impossible for post of trans people.

Post-op trans *

Gender isn't a "fad"

You sound like the conservatives who think homosexuality is a "fad"

The thing about using the dehumanizing language is it’s done *solely* for the reason mentioned upthread—to eradicate the idea of biological sex in order to cause less distress to this small number of people for whom the reality of sex is too triggering for them and their mental illness.

There are no “trans men” out there who are going to be so utterly clueless or deluded that they’re not going to realize that when a female-specific medical issue is being discussed, it pertains to THEM even if they don’t “identify as” women.

Frankly, if they ARE so deluded to think that they don’t need a screening for cervical cancer (if they still have a cervix) unless the literature they encounter uses terms like “people with cervixes” (as opposed to simply “women”), then I’d say fuck ‘em. They probably have far greater problems and shouldn’t even be living on their own.

'Non-binary' just means women who wear their hair short and men who wear makeup/have long hair That's what it boils down to, appearance. Look at Emma Corrin.

No one just has gender dysphoria, there's always a deeper issue that manifests as gender dysphoria. Unless it's a man with autogynephilia, then it's his fetish being called dysphoria so we can avoid talking about the sexual aspect of transitioning.

I think it makes perfect sense given the navel-gazing bullshit a large part of this world has fallen in to.

Now that men on the spectrum have gotten ahold of it... well, here we are.

I used to work with someone who was married to another man. As I understand it he had bad upbringing - religious nut job homophobic parents. But as far as I could tell he became a very happy gay men.

I don't know what went on as I changed jobs but a few years ago he declared he was non-binary. Because he likes to sometimes wear nail varnish and a dress. And sometimes he doesn't.

I have no idea what that means for him.

But whatever he wears, however he behaves, what he "identifies as" he's still a man.

R124 The difference is that homosexuality is based on same-sex attraction. The key word is “sex,” which is something that actually exists. Humans with penises like other humans with penises. You can’t really be sexually attracted to an abstract idea like gender unless it’s a fetish.

R129, exactly. Would you exist as a 'gender' or identify as a 'gender' if you existed all alone in the jungle since you can remember?

Gender ideation and ideology really blew up with the advent of social media. If I can use an arson metaphor, that's the accelerant.

[quote] I certainly don't have any ideas of how either of those conditions can be helped, but I do find it peculiar that no surgeon would remove somebody's arm or leg yet they' gladly chop off their tits or dick.

Because there's not much intrinsic potential for Body integrity disorder to be made into a social 'identity' using the human rights and equality movement.

True, r126. Nobody talks about the erections these men get from wearing dresses & make-up…or even from being in women only spaces.

Or that some men like to masturbate in public restrooms.

R124, what we are going through right now is a fad. Future generations will look back on us with the same disdain we have on those who believed bloodletting cured disease.

A lot of you who are mentioning gender dysphoria may be unaware that, according to the latest iteration of gender ideology, one doesn't need to suffer from gender dysphoria at all to consider oneself trans.

And those that insist otherwise, which includes most of those who used to be called "transsexuals" (i.e. people who actually go through transition) are slandered as "truscum" or "transmedicalist".

Let that sink in.

The fact that you no longer have to have gender dysphoria to be trans has turned what used to be a serious mental/medical condition into what the OP correctly termed a "fad".

I actually feel bad for the poor people who genuinely suffered through severe gender dysphoria and went through great pain and expense to turn themselves into an approximation of the opposite sex. This is all such an insult to them, and they are getting left behind in the dust by the faddists.

r133 They're called "transtrenders." The fact that you have members of academia and the medical science community enabling this is tragic. Most of those in academia and the medical community are enabling it because they, themselves, have some sort of mental disorder and they're strong-arming society with their credentials in order to accommodate their own identity issues. It's one of the most disgusting abuses of power society has seen since the Nazi camp experiments.

When Jeopardy champ Mattea embraced non-binary over the past year, that was my clue it's officially a fad.

It's been interesting watching a fairly naive/sheltered lesbian friend transition to being male - he started working in a traditional male blue collar job that he'd always wanted to work in. And was shocked at the general sexism/racism/homophobia of the work culture and the fact that, when his colleagues found out he doesn't have a penis, they really don't think of him as a man.

And he's been really upset and surprised at that. Because he had no real exposure to men until he transitioned. He was born/raised/socialised female, only ever dated and hung out with women, and really had no idea what men are actually like. Any bio male could tell you that an all-male blue collar industrial job was not going to be a hotbed of inclusion and tolerance. But masculinity to him was this idealised perfect thing until he started living as a man. The reality is much more complicated.

[quote]And was shocked at the general sexism/racism/homophobia of the work culture and the fact that, when his colleagues found out he doesn't have a penis, they really don't think of him as a man.

That's not naive, but brain dead.

These people have to learn the hard way. It’s like expecting a straight person to fuck a member of the opposite sex and then being surprised when it doesn’t happen.

Society can not and will not bend reality to suit these troubles people’s delusions. We’ve been playing along for too long and it’s gotten out of hand.

I’ve seen a couple of groups of lesbians transition at once. Almost like those straight friendship groups where one couple gets engaged so there’s a domino effect and a year later everyone in the group is married. But with testosterone. It’s sad because their whole dynamic is so female including the way they all transition for fear of missing out, wanting to stay in the group etc - and then they become these fake “boys” who still spend all their time together, date each other, egg each other on with more surgery and t injection parties - nothing has really changed except their T levels. I’m waiting for the groups to split apart eventually and they will all detransition.

[quote] I actually feel bad for the poor people who genuinely suffered through severe gender dysphoria and went through great pain and expense to turn themselves into an approximation of the opposite sex.

I feel bad for them because they didn’t learn how to accept themselves as they are & instead were exploited to mutilate & forever medicalize their bodies.

They think they hate their bodies now….just wait until they hit 50. If they live that long

She’s lucky they don’t rape her, r136.

Can’t identify out of being a woman. She’d never be able to overpower them.

R141 You're right, and that’s no joke. Blue collar guys are a mess.

I'm convinced that anyone who wants to analyze, discuss in minutiae, write poetry about, and collect disability because of is one hundred percent biologically female.

If you were a male, one of would take out their dick and shove it in your mouth just to shut you up and then you'd watch tv.

I'm going to take exception to R140. Psychiatrists have reported that non-autogynes with severe gender dysphoria can only be helped with intense therapy that would only work if they were willing to go along with it. In other words, though they may never likely be able to pass as female convincingly in most cases, they're SO miserable as bio-males, surgery is a preferred option.

Why do lesbians who get themselves carved up and pumped full of hormones suddenly become "gay men" (actually heterosexual women)?

NOT straight girls who have a fetish for gay men having sex, but actual lesbians who suddenly turn straight.

Drugs really affect women's sexuality that much?

[R21] But you're just stumping you feet, tellling me that the reference to medical and mental health science isn't true. Without presenting any counterargument. You cultish terfs and/or loathsome LGB quislings, devoid and yet perpetuaters of your own history, - rambling from the same radicalized script - never can, because your resistence in acknowledging trans people comes from an irrational place of disinforming, dehumanizing situational sociopathy. Speaking as a psychologist, most of you have unresolved narcissistically manifested issues and this culture war serves as a futile attempt to recreate some sort of ego equilibrium, and with some of you it's just inherent (like gender identity btw). The situationality of your disorder makes it even more insidious because you find your targets among the most vulnerable whereas you treat other people you deem as worthy/a narcissistic extension of your limited selves - or are simply too cowardous to target - somewhat cordially or even sycophantically. This way your disorder gets much more cultural and structural leeway than the general form of sociopathy. You'd think that the fact that your ideology aligns with extreme right-wing America, the likes of Putin, Bolsonaro and all other fascists would give you pause. But no.

Dear R146, please insert some para spaces!

r145 They were always straight women. They just are mentally ill straight women with gender dysphoria. Like the straight men who call themselves "lesbians" and their "lady dicks," they are not mentally well.

I'm trying to figure out what goes on in the heads of so-called gay men who are having sex with transmen (in their vaginas) and still convincing themselves they are 100% gay. They somehow have deluded themselves into buying the "transmen are men" line when in reality, they are fucking mentally ill straight women who are taking male hormones to give themselves masculine features and have surgically removed their breasts.

There are numerous threads on LPSG with a bunch of very confused "gay" men in denial drooling over pussy who immediately go on the attack against anyone who let's them know, "Hey, bro...just an FYI, you're bi." with the "tRAnSmEN aRE mEN. iM stiLL gAY!!! RHEEEEE!" BS. They will literally sit there and openly admit to being sexually aroused by a vagina but rationalize that as "gay" because they sincerely believe the lie that "some men have vaginas."

I hate the world today.

R145, you answered your own question. The hormones can have unexpected side effects. A MTF detrans named ShapeShifter talked about how their objects of sexual desire changed depending on if hormones were being taken (and how much).

R148 - this whole 'fad' of gay men "liking vagina" seems to be strictly online bravado. It's nearly 2023 and the only FTMs I've ever encountered in real life were lesbians before transition and who continued navigating in 'queer' spaces after transition. They certainly never became "one of the straight boys" - not even Laith Ashley, the Datalounge Gold Standard of FTMs, has done that. Also, none of my gay (or even bi!) friends have ever even expressed curious interest in diving into "boipussy".

"My Penis Is Gone Forever & I Regret it"

🥺😩😡

[quote]this whole 'fad' of gay men "liking vagina" seems to be strictly online bravado.

r149 Porn and/or sex addiction are also factors. Keep in mind the sample size (LPSG, JUB). I've done my "research" on this crazy mess to try to figure out the psychology of so-called gay and straight men who claim to be sexually attracted to trans people and the conclusion I've drawn is that the minds of these men are just broken by too much porn consumption where they have to consume more extreme porn to get off.

R146 What a lot of waffling bollocks.

r143

R150 - that interview was tough to watch and listen to, but I was glad to make it all the way to the end. I felt so bad that they were lied to again and again.

Just a slight addition to my post above: my FTM friends never officially changed their own objects of desire after transition; they dated women before and after it.

R151 - not to name names, but I've noticed that the ones here who declare their lust for FTMs are also the same ones who declare themselves to be asexual, celibate and/or virgins (either due to religion or crippling social anxiety). So forgive me if I take into account those that I know in real life, with healthy relationships and sex lives, over anonymous Datalounge posters. I still laugh over that one DLer who said that they had hooked up with a FTM and "made her come six times in one night".

[81] This tired old TERF talking point, straight from the cult. There's a difference between being a tomboy and having debilitating gender dysphoria. I know it's difficult when you have a hard time or capacity understanding people beyond a narcissistic extension of yourself.

Tell me again what the slur is for a gay man who won't fuck a FTM? Or a straight man who won't fuck at MTF?

Oh that's right, there isn't one because Trans hatred of women is simply their own misogyny coming out.

r156 homophobia doesn't exist because it's just misogyny

[quote]I've noticed that the ones here who declare their lust for FTMs are also the same ones who declare themselves to be asexual,

Hol up, now...

Maybe "gray" or "demi" but not asexual. The definition literally means "no sexual attraction (lust)." So, that's not possible.

Or they're just as confused as the "gay/straight" men lusting after vaginas/penises attached to the mentally ill.

Labels are "fluid" these days, don't ya know. The mean anything and everything depending on the context or argument of the moment. A by-product of the Living Mah Troof zeitgeist.

And to question this is to be an "out of touch oldhead" (and white too, don't ask).

R159 I’ve always wondered why anyone who questions this is accused of being white. I know several black and Asian gay men who roll their eyes at all of this pronoun/gender stuff. Of course they are all over 40, and thus sane.

r159 There is nothing wrong with being asexual. I'm asexual. I'm no different and have no "unique problems" that sexual people don't also have.

I also mind my fucking business with that shit. I have no idea why DL keeps piling on asexuals. Who are we bothering? Seriously.

Stop posting this TERF/ “gender critical” garbage here, OP. Nobody cares.

R161 “In today’s round of the Oppression Olympics…”

[quote] There's a difference between being a tomboy and having debilitating gender dysphoria.

Yes…familial acceptance or rejection.

Most heterosexual parents do not want homosexual children.

A kid’s gotta survive.

They know when their parents are repulsed.

r163 It's not the "oppression olympics." FOH with that. I'm genuinely perplexed as to why asexuals keep getting brought up here. How are asexuals causing actual problems in society? Do you see asexuals demanding nonsense legislation to be passed? Denying biology and demanding matters of sexual orientation be taught to children? Sexualizing kids?

No really, what are we actually doing that even warrants being brought up in this clusterfuck of a topic? I don't get it.

I can never understand FtMs who are attracted to gay men, or MtFs who become lesbians. Why didn't they just stay their bio-sex? They would have a much bigger dating pool.

R37, Blaire White is a repulsive idiot grifter and self loathing gay man ( he might well be one of the rare cases of becoming trans because he hates the fact that he is a effeminate gay man), he’s also a child predator and attacks and spreads misinformation about gay men as well as LGBT in almost ALL of his videos. Buck Angel the homophobic mentally unstable pornwhore who used a child as a sexual prop? Lol Christ! The fact that you think these are the “sane” ones says a lot.

R38, The only reason TERFS/GCs suck up to creeps like Blaire White is because he attacks gay and trans alike, same with pedo Matt Walsh, Tucker Carlson, James Lindsay, Caroline Farrow… and the many pedos and far right groomers that are now coming out in support of their movement. It was never about protecting women’s rights and children.

R165 No one is giving even a seconds thought to asexuals so stop trying to make them interesting.

r168 The only individuals who keep bringing up asexuals on here are not asexuals and claim to "not be thinking about asexuals." I only ever comment about being asexual when people who claim to "not be thinking about asexuals" bring us up in shit that has fuck all to do with us.

Sit down.

R169 No, YOU sit down. Unless asexuals aren’t able to do that?

[quote]he might well be one of the rare cases of becoming trans because he hates the fact that he is a effeminate gay man

Ah, I guess that situation DOES actually arise, despite the continual insistence around here that it does not. Or it exists for the sake of this particular argument, at least.

r170 No, you. A stay on target. As I said, this BS has nothing to do with us.

Bunch of psycho mumbo jumbo. Shut up, fucking loons. DROP THE T & THE QIA+#%!

r166 That goes to show you that gender identity has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation and gender dysphoria is, once again, a mental illness.

R174 don’t forget how the current climate and victim Olympics incentivize them to get Trans’d.

R167, the opposite is true. Mermaids had a pedo-friendly board member resign recently.

WPATH also has perv clout

[quote]That’s what the TRA assholes on DL do—anyone who questions this stuff is “in bed with far-right” or are actually “the far-right” or Russian trolls, or Christian fundies, etc. No! We all have our different reasons for opposing this ideology.

Because you ARE, fuckhead, R57, R58, And that’s why DLers don’t want you here.

R172 No, You! No returns!

R146, you’re out to lunch, and there is no way all those likes on your post are organic. Get the fuck outta here.

What “medical health science” is there behind “gender”? What are you referring to? It’s an abstract societal concept. It’s not located anywhere in the body. It’s also FLUID and CULTURE-BOUND, therefore not innate.

And please for the love of fuck, STOP trying to scare people with your “aligned with the far right” bullshit. It isn’t going to work. We are not aligned with them in any sense (except for those who ARE on the far-right), any more than you are. You seriously fucking think radical feminists and gender critical feminists and biologists, women who have sexual trauma and can’t be around bepenised persons, are all “aligned with the far right”?! Like all us liberals just woke up one day and decided “Yeah, I’m gonna go to the dark side on this one issue, just because it makes me FEEL EVIL and I WANT TO HARM trans people”?

Have you even read the posts in this thread? Do our words mean nothing? What the hell is your problem?

r178 No. YOU.

No takesies backsies!

[quote] [81] This tired old TERF talking point, straight from the cult. There's a difference between being a tomboy and having debilitating gender dysphoria.

Yes, we KNOW there is a difference. Unfortunately, the therapists, doctors, and activists who’ve been captured by the ideology these days DON’T seem to know the difference, and neither do the adolescent and teenage girls who go to the clinics.

What the hell do you think explains the 4000% increase in referrals of young females to gender clinics? They ALL have actual, debilitating gender dysphoria? (If so, how could we have missed them before?) Or maybe they’re caught up in a social contagion?

The point is there IS a social contagion going on, and THANK GOD there wasn’t one back in the 60s or 70s or there’d be a lot of balding, double-mastectomied lesbians roaming around now, forever regretting their mistake.

R167, and Helen Joyce is genocidal and a Nazi, right?

LOL, you’re nuts. Go dilate. When you can’t handle the gender criticism, and all you have are ad hominem arguments… you might be trans.

This entire thread is just terf frumps of twitter and trolls whining and complaining about trans. No actual gay man is posting this embarrassing crap. And the fact that POS R75, can say homophobic shit like this on DL is something.

Muriel needs to come nuke this thread. ASAP.

r182 Just be grateful that threads like this show you exactly whom to block. Call it a blessing.

They can't help themselves.

R183, I am gay as fuck, you twat. I like real men, and I love everything about them— their big dicks, their cum, their ball sweat, their feet, and I’ve posted about all that here on this site at length. What I am not into and never will be into, are women, men who wish they were women or wish they weren’t men, or women who pretend to be gay men. Fuck outta here with that shit.

I see you have yet to argue against ANY point raised in this thread. You just hammer on with the ad hominems. You have nothing.

R182, this is a gay board for gay men, it’s not a place for mentally unhinged TERFs/GCs or whatever you call yourself… and since your oh so obsessed with “dilating holes” maybe go do that and stfu already.

"Homophobic shit" is only acceptable if it comes from a tranny like Ima B. Churraz.

In fact, the DL My Kind Of Gays™ would love to be spat on and called a fag by someone like that. They'd say "thank you!" and ask for more.

[quote] this is a gay board for gay men

Cool. So I’m the right place.

Why, as a gay man, do you support this homophobic ideology?

R183 Bullshit, lots of gay men are posting because that’s what they believe and KNOW. Stop desperately trying to make anyone who doesn’t think exactly like you into some evil faceless enemy. You’re pathetic.

The mental derangement on display here is quite remarkable. You’re not a gay man and definitely not a DLer, R185. But since you’re eager perhaps you can open your holes for business?

R189, LOL, DLers don’t give a shit about this terf crap and that’s why most anti-trans threads are often deleted by Muriel.

R188, maybe stick to Twitter where you can call yourself a gender critical dumbass all day long. We don’t go for that here.

R190, just fuck off. I’ve been a DLer since like 2009 when I first googled “James Franco gay” because I had an inkling he might be gay or bi, I had a crush on him, and DL was one of the only hits that came up. I’ve been here ever since, you cunt. And I’ve been gay for the last 30 years, not counting the period in my teens when I thought I was bisexual.

You can troll-dar the fuck out of me and see all my recent posts here, many of which are about my LUST for men. Who the hell are you to tell me I’m not gay? Why would you even think that?

And why do you only have ad hominem attacks? Why are you completely unable to discuss the topic at hand: the absurdity of gender identity ideology? Fucking loser.

R191 Clearly DLers DO care but continue denying reality, it’s apparently what you do best.

Oh dear God I came on DL this evening to find out how women really pee when only then did I realize how blissful life had been when I actually didn't know.

Again, actual DLers don’t give two fucks about this terf crap, and spamming the WWs isn’t going to convince us either.

You’re pathetically transparent.

R195 Gosh, you’re exhausting.

Women have loved football for not 40 years but more like a hundred. Haven't you ever seen Good News?

R171, Who here said that it never happens? I don’t speak in absolutes. “Transing the gay away” is a bogus Gender Critical claim, and in all their years of touting this bull I’ve yet to see hordes of gay men and lesbians transitioning.

Besides, Gender Critical ideology can’t even keep consistent because now they’re claiming it’s actually mostly straight people that are being forced to transition. 🙄 This is why their movement is a joke….

Feeling exhausted, R196? Maybe take a nap…

R198, you know that most people who say “transing the gay away” are referring to the children who are currently falling prey to this social contagion, right? You know this, don’t you? We’ve been incredibly clear:

The vast majority of children who experience persistent gender dysphoria will grow out of it after or during puberty, and most of them will be gay.

If those dysphoric children are sent to, or allowed to go to gender clinics and put on an “affirmative” model of care, they will 1) be put on puberty blockers and 2) go on to take cross-sex hormones. When they reach adulthood, they might be sterile, they might be anorgasmic, and they will expect to be seen as a “heterosexual” member of the sex that they’re not.

That is what is meant when we say “transing the gay away.” You’re seeing it NOW.

[quote]in all their years of touting this bull I’ve yet to see hordes of gay men and lesbians transitioning

Lesbians are transitioning now. Most gay men aren’t, though some of them are identifying as non-binary, which makes zero sense (see the posts above about the contradictory claims made by gender ideologues).

Nice try attempting to paint US as the ideologues. We are simply calling out the bullshit and standing up for gay men and lesbians and proto-gay children.

[quote]Who here said that it never happens?

Various members of the DL TRA Brigade.

They also claim it is an impossibility for the parents of trans kids to be homophobic.

[quote]DROP THE T & THE QIA+#%!

Lesbian activist Belissa Cohen: "Anything after the B is straight people."

I couldn't agree more.

abolish gender NOW!

r197, women who claim to like football are really just daddy's girls who realized early on that while daddy was watching a game, they would be ignored. So they sat with their daddy's and learned about it in a desperate attempt to get attention. As they grew older, it was the one thing they realized they could talk to men about since all straight men are obsessed with the stupid game so they put on a jersey to look cute and find a husband. Whenever a woman talks about football, I roll my eyes and think she's the most pathetic human being ever because god forbid she admit it's not really that interesting and her dude only wants to fuck her if she can talk the game.

R204, you are hilariously stupid. I a lesbian who loves football. My dad never watched football. No one in my family watches football except me. And, I don't hang out with any straight men. So, next stupid theory...

What? A lesbian who likes football? How incredibly unique you are. When did you start watching football and why?

R206, never said I was unique. I was countering the moronic statements about women who like football. I started watching with all the hype around the Bears winning the Super Bowl in the 80s and have loved it ever since.

Most lesbians watch football. Seems a huge waste of time but knock yourself out. Straight women however, who like it are mostly pretending to as a way to bond with some asshole in their life.

r208 I wish that applied to my mother.

She will, quite literally, fight you if you criticize the Detroit Lions (who absolutely deserve it. They suck). Whenever they have a game, I know not to speak to her for days because she's going to be irritated. Because...well, they suck.

^ They had a game on Thanksgiving. They lost, of course.

I'll give her time to grieve.

I've been here since 2000 - DL is not tranny friendly and never has been. Maybe you TRAs should get the fuck out?

R211 that's the year I was born omg

R195…”actual DLers” ??

Lol.

So now we have actual DLers but not actual men or actual women.

Men & women are either cis or trans.

And “actual DLers” are what exactly? Gays who believe in T ideology?

Truth be told, DL has always spoken out against T. “Drop the T” started here…by Clayton with assist from one or two other homos including a lesbian.

You don’t know what your talking about.

R146 does not read like a psychologist to me.

r209 r210 r213

R179, You have the gall to complain about “organic” WWs?!! Don’t make me laugh, as if any of these anti-trans threads produce authentic WWs.

Really just imagining you sitting there pressing that button over and over again with your little finger is hilarious. You trolls aren’t slick in the slightest.

I think that trans obsessed creep Graham Linehan is posting here, He impersonated being lesbian and felt comfortable harassing lesbians, he even got kicked off Mumsnet. It’s not that far of a stretch for him pretending to be a gay man on here.

Most gays and lesbians don’t support terf or gender critical ideology, it’s pretty ludicrous to claim that we do.

[wuote]DL TRA Brigade

You mean just regular DLers telling you you’re full of shit? There is no “TRA Brigade” here but plenty of anti/trans/TERF trolls. Homophobes don’t like trans anymore than they like gay people. Even if there are outliners most homophobes see gays and trans as abhorrent and make no distinction between the two.

It's funny that the vast majority of DL isn't buying your transtapo bullshit but you think that majority is all trolls. Idiot.

Great to see this thread greyed out. “transtapo” lol, what dumbass came up with that, R219? We don’t want you here.

R213, I’ve been here long enough to know you’re full of shit because DL was never anti-trans. DLers don’t cry that they are being oppressed by words like cis or trans, that’s unique only to TERF lunatics that have infested this board, Get your snowflake nonsense out of here.

R211, Please take the TERF trash with you. We are sick of them, too.

R200, Where is the empirical data? Where is the evidence? I’m not accepting any dubious claims from TERF/ Gender critical ideologues. And YES, you are an ideology, a disgusting one at that. It doesn’t need to be painted, it’s been well observed.

I have a feeling that "terfs" follow R221 everywhere he goes. I picture him yelling it out at random people like the accusing girls from The Crucible. Loon.

[quote]bepenised

LOL

How are DLers not laughing at this crap?? R179, you have me howling. Did you say that with a straight face?

[quote]anyone who questions this stuff is “in bed with far-right”

R57, This manipulative tactic might have worked several years ago, but it’s not going to work now when radfems and gender critical groups are openly admitting and accepting support from the far right – Julie Bindel et al.

You’re the lone psycho here screaming in denial, R225.

I first saw “drop the T” here on DL years ago before there was ever any calls for separation anywhere else.

Dataloungers are real gay men (and a few lesbians…and a few straight women…) who recognize the difference between sex and “gender identity” and know that the latter cannot trump the former or else homosexuality ceases to exist. It’s nonsense, it’s insane, it’s harmful to gays, lesbians, women, children… You’re nuts if you think there’s any compatibility between the IDEOLOGY of gender ID and the REALITY of homosexuality.

And you should hear what Julie Bindel said about the supposed association with the “far right” just this past week on Blocked and Reported’s Patreon episode. You have NO FUCKING CLUE what you’re talking about. You’re just a deluded, stupid person.

Conservatives and the far right have always been a part of the “TERF” and gender critical movements, they are just more blunt about it now. Child molester Kaeley Triller (Hands Across the Aisle) was one of the leaders of the earlier organisations. Now you have pedo homophobe Matt Walsh (approved by JK Rowling) and many more coming out in support and vice versa. GCs and radfems are well aware that they have child molesters and groomers in their ranks, but they don’t care because it doesn’t suit their agenda.

Any gay men or lesbians still supporting them really need a wake-up calll.

No gender-critical person is “supporting” anyone else’s political views except the part where those other people recognize the reality of biological sex and the harms of gender ID ideology.

Why is this difficult for you to understand? Do you seriously think ‘gender’ is a good, progressive thing? Do you not see how it’s a social contagion among confused young girls? Do you not recognize the harms of letting young kids go to gender clinics and being ‘affirmed’? Do you think male offenders should be housed in women’s wards? Do you think any man who says he’s a woman IS a woman?

Engage with the issues, coward. I dare you.

And by the way, conservatives are not gender-critical. They LOVE gender and all its associated stereotypes and restrictions. They have never been “gender critical” and they have never been “TERFs” (the clue is in the name: ‘radical feminist’). You seriously think any far-right person is a radical feminist? LOL

Please be serious.

R221 is a full on lie.

But then so is “it’s possible to change sex.”

r231

You know what else those evil conservatives have in common with those evil TERFs?

Lungs!!!

They both breathe oxygen.

Sometimes they even share the same air! Can you believe it? Those traitors. 🙄

r233

[quote]outliners

😂

Your TRA rage is overwhelming you, like it did to your girl Amara as 'she' clomped around, stripped and spat as cameras rolled. WERK!

I've been reading about trans issues on DL for years. On every thread there's always some TRA stirring shit, this thread is no different. I've never seen a coherent, cogent argument from a TRA, all you can do is attack other people who don't believe in your gender nonsense. That's all you have. If your 'movement' can't handle facts like people can't change sex and gender is just sexist sterotypes, then it's not a real movement.

I don't know why anyone thinks TERF is in any way an insult! If being a terf means simply believing in actual reality then I'm a proud terf. I am also a gay man. So I'm a proud gay male terf. Anyone saying that the gay men here are not "gender critical" is full of shit. Anyone with more than 2 braincells can see what's really going on.

I'm pretty amused by the alleged psychologist calling us "loathsome LGB quislings", not gonna lie.

Would they call an actual patient of theirs such a thing to their face, if the patient confessed to not believing in self-ID?

R229, Why is it difficult for you to understand that no one is buying your bullshit? “I only agree with them on this one issue” is trite and disingenuous to even say at this point. If you’re aligning yourself with pedophiles like Matt Walsh you are NOT nor have you ever been concerned for the safety and wellbeing of children.

R227, I thought DL had a “TRA Brigade” now it’s one “lone psycho” can’t you keep your bullshit straight?

Why would I care what a bloated homophobe like Julie Bindel thinks? Bindel, who calls gay men child predators whenever she can and says being lesbian is a choice. Fuck off. Even recently she vaguely admitted in a tweet that the escalation in attacks on LGBT people had something to do with TERF propaganda being spread throughout the far right.

R239 and R240, all you do is attack other people. That's all you can do.

Just look at TERF/gender critical twitter and their right wing allies gloating about the Colorado gay club shooting, their only “concern” is the identity of the shooter and using that to attack gay and trans saying “we brought it on ourselves.”

Fuck them. Any gay men or lesbians still believing they’re serious about “helping” LGB need to wake the fuck up.

I hate Matt Walsh, I here Shapiro, all the Bible loving men that are going viral for raising their voices against trans ideology. And I also hate trans people, I think they have a mental illness.

Hate Shapiro*

R237, No self respecting gay man would call himself a terf.

Give yourself another 20 dozen WWs or suck a trans dick if it makes you feel better, Linehan.

Been here since 2015, and noticed the rapid increase in right wing trolls including TERFs whining and shit stirring on just about every thread. Threads that have absolutely nothing to do with trans they’d come in and make it all about trans. So stop your bullshitting, R236.

I've been here since 2006, R246. Again, all you can do is attack other people.

R224, You’re fantasising about me yelling at girls?? … Um, who’s the lunatic here again?

Been here since 2009, R246. Who’s the “real” DLer now? You have only personal insults and cannot discuss the topic at all— you can only slam the people who criticize the ideology; you can’t defend one bit of the ideology itself for even one second. Very telling.

Blocking you now, and I suggest everyone else do the same. You have contributed nothing here. For your own well-being I suggest you block this thread. There’s no reason for it to be deleted — this gender ideology either stands on its own or it doesn’t. So far, no one (including — and especially — you) seems to be able or willing to defend any part of it.

R247, Criticism isnt an “attack”, but I’m sure it feels that way to trolls like you because you don’t like being called out on your BS.

Datalounge may have never been trans friendly, but it certainly was never anti trans. DLers mock everyone and anyone, and the general attitude was ambivalence. This aggressive hostility towards trans people has just crept in the last few years.

Block the one TRA troll in this thread and nearly all the stupid posts disappear. Like clearing the air… aaaahhhh.

You don't like being called out on your bullshit, R250. You've resorted to ad hominem arguments (not attacks, is that better?) all over this thread. Tell us how transwomen are women without resorting to sexist stereotypes.

He can’t do it, R253. Really best to block and forget his pea-brained ass.

R249, Block away troll, you won’t be missed. There is no “topic” or discussion here beyond “trannies are evil and I don’t like them”, just like every other tedious anti-trans thread.

You’ve contributed nothing to DL, and probably nothing to life itself.

R245, no self-respecting gay man would ever want a young gay guy to CUT OFF HIS DICK

[quoqte]Conservatives and the far right have always been a part of the “TERF” and gender critical movements, they are just more blunt about it now.

As the saying goes, "Every conservative is a TERF, but not every (or even any!) TERF is a conservative."

(TERF here means what the TRAs define it as because, obviously, conservatives are not radical feminists. But, then again, the transtapo loons are not good with details. Like, do you know they actually don't think having a dick and XY chromosomes makes you male? Bad with details.)

Successful movements throughout history have often had to align themselves with sworn enemies to advance their cause.

I remember Jerry Falwell explaining in the 80's or 90's how, even though he believed the Mormons and the Catholics were Satanic and not true Christians, they had certain goals in common, plus they had a lot of money, and it made sense politically to align with them in order to achieve said goals.

Similarly, pro-Israel Jews currently find themselves forced to align with Evangelical Christians who they know hate them deep down, but they have a lot of money and influence, and they support Israel for very different reasons (Israel has to exist in order for the End of Days to happen, ushering the return of Jesus to Earth, or some such nonsense).

These alliances with sworn enemies often backfire spectacularly, though, like when the Communists and the garden-variety secularists, along with pro-democracy forces, all aligned with radical Islamists to overthrow the Shah of Iran. Once that goal was accomplished, the radical Islamists took control of the country and executed most of the Communists, secularists, and pro-democracy people en masse. Or when the U.S. aligned with and armed the mujahideen in Afghanistan in order to oust the Soviets, only to have it all bite them in the ass on 9/11.

I don't think it's inherently wrong to seek temporary alliance with your enemies, but you'd damn well better be smart about it, do not forget for a second who these people really are, and have a plan for what will happen after your goal is achieved. The people who are screaming about aligning with the far right are expressing a legitimate fear: that once they succeed in taking down the trans with our help, they will be emboldened and set their sights on taking us down next. Either that, or they will try to take us all down simultaneously, because we're all the same to them anyway (a concept which we've encouraged with the whole "LGBTQ+ community" thing.)

At the end of the day, though, what's true is true, and if some awful people acting in bad faith also happen to recognize a particular truth, that doesn't automatically change what the truth is.

Well said, R258. What’s true is what matters. “Aligning” with the “far right” on this issue is like agreeing with someone that the sky is blue.

The rhetoric the far right uses on this issue (“groomers”, etc.) is a bit dumb, and of course their ideas about gender stereotypes are as regressive as TRAs’,* but if idiots like Matt Walsh can help spread awareness of the dangers of this looney ideology, good. It will become a losing issue for Democrats and for GLB people, and hopefully then the rest of us will wake up and abandon this dead-end, sexist, homophobic nonsense.

*Funny how the TRAs never realize how well THEY are aligned with the far-right when it comes to ideas about gender and sex-based stereotypes. They’re a match made in heaven. Christ!!

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Matt Walsh, to have a question like "what is a woman?" to be met with nervous laughter and/or a bunch of "ummm"s and "wellll"s, followed by non-answers, is absolutely ridiculous. All for point zero six of the population, who we're told that very few of us ever even encounter, let alone know on a personal level? Really, to answer the question is not going to cause anyone to kill themselves, despite the suicidality narrative.

Or, r258…

…a friendship could develop. Or at least mutual respect.

It could de-escalate things.

I’ve been loving my new friendships with those on the far-far-right. I thought I would hate them forevermore — when Trump was elected, I said on more than one occasion that his voters should be dragged out of their houses and shot in the street — but since the evil of gender ideology came along, I’ve found it such a relief to become friends with my enemies (this is generally good advice for living, by the way).

I never miss a Friday night with my white-hooded pals. I laugh at them when they tell me I’m going to Hell for being gay. Joke’s on them, I don’t even believe in Hell! Yes it does get a bit boring to hear them going on and on about how the white people need to uprise and take back our culture (blah blah blah), but I just remind them that I will NEVER have sex with a woman no matter how bald she is or how big her forearm-penis is, and they say “Whatever, queer! God will sort you out in the end, if we don’t take care of you first!”

And then we laugh and laugh…

R262 = Sarcasm.

The accusation that LGB are aligning themselves with the far-right is nothing but demagoguery and gaslighting. Who's made those alliances because exactly zero such coordinated entities come to mind.

People have opinions and arguments which coincide all the time. But that doesn't mean they come from the exact same place ideologically, instrumentally or motivationally.

The alignment fallacy falls flat the moment you apply just two basic critical scientific thinking principles: correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, and any theory worth its salt must be falsifiable.

r264 The "with us or against us" ideology has strong roots in religion, specifically the Abrahamic religions. Being raised in a fundie nut household, I was frequently told that anything I did that was "against God" was "devil worship" by default.

A lot of these idealogues come from similar fundie backgrounds, and since myopic black and white thinking is all they know, they unconsciously reapply this narrow dogmatic worldview to their "new religion."

If you're "lukewarm" like the sky daddy they were beaten into submission to follow as children, they will spit you out, turn their backs, and declare they "never knew you." In many ways, those who subscribe to this new theory of gender are following a type of religion.

Why was Op's post greyed out? But yet the thread remains. How does this work?

[quote]The accusation that LGB are aligning themselves with the far-right is nothing but demagoguery and gaslighting.

LGB isn't becoming far-right any more than Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger are becoming far-left. In both cases, they're speaking out against groups in their own tribes that do not align with their values.

And here to sing 'I feel pretty" in the new off Broadway rendition of West Side Story...

^ Is there any updates on that creature on the right? Our Muriel has killed the thread.

The Ts (as in today's ideology, not the ones who are just trying to live their lives like everyone else)are the Christian Fundamentalists of the left.

It's a Post-Modern Mess!

Trans-Radical Politics is the Highest Form of Misogyny