More Americans Are Relocating To Europe

Lol, ok.

Because I'm poor, OP

Don't have any recent relatives to claim citizenship through and I don't have enough money for a golden visa. But there are some options I am considering outside of those and I hope they'll be available next year.

Because Europe will be even more screwed in the future than we will. If climate refugees hit, entirety of Africa and the middle East will run north.

OP - Because they'd rather sit and complain.

People can't just pack their bags and move to a foreign country. You need to get a job first and apply for a work visa and after a few years apply for citizenship which is all different regarding the country. It would cost a lot of money too. People who are independently wealthy have an easier time with this.

R6 if you read the article - people have just packed up their bags and moved. And they were NOT independently wealthy

If they just packed and moved they are young and have in demand career skills or remote jobs.

I don’t know a single person moving to Europe, and I know like 15 people.

How do all these people who can't afford a house in the US manage to get a work visa? It's hard to get a visa for either the US or any European countries. You can't just get on a plane and stay for the rest of your life. You need to be highly qualified or very rich to get a visa and it's a long and expensive process.

Admit it OP, you just wanted to post the photo of the shirtless guy.

That photo is not in the article itself, just a photo of him with a shirt on. The focus is on his wife too--no mention of him, his name or what he does.

My understanding R10 is if you buy property in one of these European countries (which cost less than buying a house in the USA) you qualify for a VIsa

R7 All the people in those article were upper middle-class high-earners who could afford that move. They are not at all the average working class American living paycheck-to-paycheck.

[quote] “I would never have looked to buy in Italy if the market in the US hadn’t been so crazy,” the entrepreneur said. She plans to work remotely and imagines a “bella vita” of good food and wine, along with a local literary club and art space she plans to launch in her storefront, “reminiscent of Paris’s art scene in the 1920s.”

[quote] Initially lured in by the one-euro homes, Miami-based Cathlyn Kirk, 47, ended up buying a three-bedroom, three-story home in Mussomeli, the same village as Synclair’s, for 37,000 euros last November. Planning to retire in two years, the officer with Homeland Security wanted to move to a country where she would be able to live comfortably on a public pension.

[quote] Initially living in a two-bedroom mobile home in Malibu, California, the director of operations for a tech startup couldn’t afford to fulfill her dream of buying land with her friends to build a communal living area in LA.

All of these people are clearly well-off and highly successful and are independently wealthy (they are not financially at risk).

R6- What does that mean?

Independently wealthy as opposed to people who are DEPENDENTLY WEALTHY?

R13 a two-bedroom mobile home is not flaunting wealth

[quote] She plans to work remotely and imagines a “bella vita” of good food and wine, along with a local literary club and art space she plans to launch in her storefront, “reminiscent of Paris’s art scene in the 1920s.”

A delusional EAT, PRAY, LOVE frau fantasy.

r13, this is DL. Everyone here has a net worth of at least $2 million.

Even if you can afford it, moving to New country is hard. It seems like most of these people work from home, do not speak the language. Italy in particular is very traditional, few people speak English and it's harder to make friends when you're already in your 30s or 40s.

They might get a cheap property, but it could also be a lonely experience without family or friends.

[quote] it could also be a lonely experience without family or friends.

and with mass shootings in the USA every week

You can also be lonely six feet under

R14 Yes, people who are dependent on their parents, live paycheck-to-paycheck, rely on government aid, are in massive debt and don't have their cars or homes paid off are "dependently" wealthy. Independently wealthy just means you are financially unburdened and have a savings surplus for luxury. Not necessarily extremely rich but upper middle-class or retired.

[quote] if you read the article - people have just packed up their bags and moved. And they were NOT independently wealthy

The article is paywalled.

Thumbs up. Europeans have a surplus of 🏪 bottoms.

Bring your own job/income.

Bonus points if you own a business and can set up shop there to hire some of their peeps.

Unlike Vin Diesel, I haven’t found someone in Europe to date.

R13 In Malibu, a two bedroom mobile home can be 1.1 million.

Sorry R24 was meant for R15

Gasoline prices and inflation exist over there too. And you need a portable job or if you work for a company abroad they have to agree to pay for your work visa which can run about $10,000 or more. Housing is not too expensive, but you will not live the way you live here. I'd advise you to look at Greece, because they're a poor country and will like you. Or Italy. But Extremists are trying to gain a political foothold in Italy so take care.

[quote] People can't just pack their bags and move to a foreign country.

Our sides!

The shirtless guy is more than welcome to stay for free at my condo if he leaves that family in Europe.

R27 Okay, people can't pack their bags and move to an entirely different continent an ocean away. And unlike The US, Europe does not want illegal immigrants to keep coming just for cheap labor.

r12, where exactly do you get your incorrect "understanding" from?

R16 Delusional, yes. I think so. Paris art scene in the 20s except not Paris and not the 20s and she has a child to consider. Does she even speak Italian? Does her child? She's opening a storefront at the beginning of an international recession? Because Italy doesn't have enough stores already? You can tell from the picture, it's all about her, no matter where they live.

OP my job doesn’t translate to employment in Europe. I’m a lawyer licensed in the US. So what would I do? Just pick up and move to Greece and do what? Get a job at a cafe? Move to a tiny village in Italy where I don’t know anyone or speak Italian and find an income how?

I know an obnoxious finance frau who runs her mouth nonstop about being a digital nomad and keeps talking about moving to Portugal for the incredible lifestyle. Even she says the visa process is a pain in the ass - and she’s a pushy New Yorker with money.

The black woman in the article who moved Italy with her son is adorable though. Glad she could make it work.

I think the tasty shirtless guy is this actor...

I know 2 people and neither are relocating to Europe. At least neither have told me if they are planning to. They probably don't want me to get any ideas about visiting them.

Everyone focuses on the usual places like London, Paris, or Berlin. Get smart. widen your searches. London is hopelessly expensive and inefficient, and Paris? Forget it. Pluys in Paris people are truly rude, it's not just an oft repeated rumor. Plus you will have the language barrier. If I were going to consider moving, don't laugh, but I'd look at Norway, Sweden, and possibly Ireland. Also check out Iceland and Greenland. No kidding.

Can you perform legal work online? Europe wants educated and highly skilled. If you sold your home for a huge sum, you can live off that.

I moved to the UK in 2019, but I was ready to move back after a year.

Where in the UK?

I fantasized once about moving to Italy. All my grandparents grew up there and so did my father. I learned the language as well as I could living in the US. But I found out I couldn't get citizenship because my father renounced his before I was born. Also I don't make friends easily, the Italians are very cliquish and if you think homophobia is bad in the US in Italy it's much worse.

I think after I spent a year there I most likely would have wanted to come back. My father at the end of his life wished he had never left.

Golden Corral

Is anyone escaping to Belgium?

It's an upper middle class professional class thing. It's probably not an option for most Dataloungers who are better off in mother's basement and bitching online.

R27. Yeah. I booked a first class ticket, landed in LA , bought a villa, and am now working in consulting. Oh my sides

Wait -- R34 only knows two people? Are you a hermit?

[quote] I know 2 people and neither are relocating to Europe. At least neither have told me if they are planning to. They probably don't want me to get any ideas about visiting them.

R37 What made you want to move back?

R35 the problem is all those cities you mentioned are more expensive than most U.S cities already and people are moving because they want to be able to afford rent.

Articles like this are bullshit.

I pay more in rent for my apartment in a small German village than my mortgage for a similarly-sized condo in a major US city. Not to mention the Euro is weak and inflation has hit here just like everywhere else.

I moved because of a job, but I want to punch everyone who thinks life in Europe is some unending vacation.

[quote] I pay more in rent for my apartment in a small German village

But you the uncut schwanz going swish-swish in der lederhosen walking right past the red grraniums in your window box, ja?!

These are the pretentious jagoffs no one can stand. Enjoy them, Europe!

Also, the upper class Americans packing off to their true spiritual home (Europe) are the ones causing the political rancor so they will being that rancor with them.

Wish you were funny, R48. Pathetic.

As for relocating to Europe: Go ahead, American DL'ers — but the places where housing is cheap are usually cheap for a reason.

R24, wow! The prices for a mobile home are ridiculous

What about Costa Rica or Panama?

Were none of you paying attention when all the Brits who owned houses in Spain were deported after Brexit? Simply owning property does not grant one residency. I have lived, part time, in Germany for 25 years and own my own home here. Getting permanent residency is not easy. A freelance visa exists, but you have to prove that your business is profitable in three months and then each year for the following three years.

Housing is not only not as cheap as one would think, but purchasing a home is not easy either.

R54. In certain countries owning a home is the principal requirement. It is true that that doesn’t apply in most European countries, but in some it does.

As an American ‘abroad’ for a couple decades, most people last around 2-3 years before returning home for a variety of reasons. This is my anecdotal observation being based in the UK and having worked in several countries in the EU, Middle East and Sub Saharan Africa. I don’t bother cultivating friendships with Americans anymore unless they have some degree of longevity and permanence because it’s a revolving door. Everyone claims they are here forever when they arrive, but things change especially after the honeymoon period is over. Moving is one of those life stressors as much as it’s exciting. Make it international, and it’s exponential. This is despite the fantasies from ‘Eat, Pray, Love’, ‘Emily in Paris’, ‘Ted Lasso’, et al.

r55, in NONE it does... none. None. None. None. Owning property in and of itself is not enough.

True, R56.

Also: One must learn the language, unless you are content hanging around exclusively with other Americans / English speakers. But the expat community is notably flaky, so don't expect anything there.

To fully become part of your new homeland, you will learn the language. Be it Greek, Portugese, Italian, Spanish, German, Dutch.. You'll get by in English and people will do their best to accommodate you — but it's hard to forge friendships with locals if you don't speak the language. It's the small things, like not getting invited to a birthday because everyone is Greek and they don't feel like talking a foreign language all night just to accommodate that one person.

R56, I don't meet many Americans any more because I live in North Germany. However, my experience is that Americans don't take well to northern Europe and even less to Scandinavia and Finland. Americans don't like being told what to do or thinking of the community before themselves... and they certainly do not like northern honesty.

R 57. Please learn to read before leaving an emphatic reply. I said it was the principal requirement. Please ask if you need help looking up the meaning of it.

Cuz I’m old and I already lived in Europe for years. They are hitting the fan in many ways. Plus, ice, they don’t do it, I need it. I lived in Europe for all of the Clinton years and never once did I see more than one small piece of ice

[quote] People can't just pack their bags and move to a foreign country. You need to get a job first and apply for a work visa and after a few years apply for citizenship which is all different regarding the country.

The U.S. is the only country with xenophobic racism that forces immigrants to risk their lives sneaking into a country. Everywhere else in world has open borders and gleefully welcomes anyone into their country no questions asked.

[quote]Wait -- [R34] only knows two people? Are you a hermit?

Bless your heart.

Sorry, r60 ... But that's one country... of the 27 in the EU. And the real estate piece is just one part of the equation... you make it seem like it's simple in r55...but it's not as simple as buying a house and getting your visa as suggested in r55 and also r12. Malta also has a buy in, but it's also expensive, time consuming and complicated.

Thanks for apologising but it would really be better to get somehow to read.my posts to you and explain them to you. I made no comment about the process bring easy or difficult so I don’t think most people who know how to read drew that inference. I also clearly said most countries do not have such arrangements. Nor did I say rye Portuguese link was exhaustive or all the options.

Shirtless number can stay with us, ,if he ditches the two fish!

R17...At least, in our fantasies...

Not by December when Europeans will be sitting in the darkness and the cold 🥶 when they have no heat and no electricity ⚡️ .

R59 The only Scandinavians I'm familiar with are Swedes, but they are everything but honest. Painfully passive agressive and politically correct to a fault.

I think what happens with Americans in Europe is the people who emigrate there subconsciously think of themselves as a superior cut of human being to other Americans and see Europe as an elite place filled with similarly elite people.

When they move there and find out there's nothing special about Europe and Europeans are just people like everyone else, the shine wears off and they mostly give up the ghost and go home.

R56 so correct about the expat community being flaky. There is the concept coined in East Asia for a certain type of expat running away from their problems or trying to be something they are not: LBH ‘Loser Back Home’. So many liars who have created alternate histories for themselves as a reset. Expat groups are filled with unstable people. The flip side of being brave and moving across the world is having nothing left to lose and moving across the world,

OP- I would give refuge to that slim good looking man in the photo.

LOL R70 ! never heard of LBH, but it's very fitting.

R47 totally agree. It's all fun and games to travel Europe in summer, jetting from Paris to Madrid to Amsterdam to Vienna in just hours.. But then winter comes, you are in the, say, German system. You go through endless streams of paperwork, stern letters, things that don't quite work like they do at home.. All normal, but that's when life really starts.

An old colleague of mine moved back to the US because he somehow expected things to be facilitated for him just by the virtue of being a foreigner / American. Turned out the Danes, in his case, weren't all that thrilled in the first place, let alone about prioritising his needs/paperwork/etc over others.

[quote]Because Europe will be even more screwed in the future than we will.

Europe isn't running full tilt towards religious fascism and violent revolution the way the US is.

Even Madonna eventually gave up on her dream of relocating to Europe (Portugal), and she has more money than God.

Good luck opening a local bank account.

To add to R72 and R75,

You also need to budget for the consultants and expediters that you will need to navigate the "endless streams of paperwork, stern letters, things that don't quite work like they do at home." No mater how fluent you thing you are, the language of bureaucracy is beyond you. You need a person to help file your taxes in both your host country and in the USA, deal with all insurance, deal with your residency status, etc. Also note that you will most likely need private insurance.

Yes, R75, it has been very difficult since 9/11. By that time I had lived in Germany for 16 years and the US government tried to have my bank account closed. The amount of money that one can have in an account and the amount that one can deposit and transfer is regulated.

I lived in Brighton, and moved back because the company I was working for just wasn't giving the support I needed. It was like, we want you to be our main guy throughout Europe, but we aren't going to give any support to actually make this happen. We had plenty of money to rent a place, but the housing situation is not good and everything was a just struggle.

Ended up switching companies when I came back.

Other than the work thing, it was an amazing place to live in a lot of ways.

Everyone I personally know who is moving out of the country is, at the bare minimum, upper middle-class. Physicians, in particular, are getting out now. New Zealand's on our radar, but many of the options we're exploring (for a worst-case scenario situation in which we're stripped of our various gay rights) are only open to me because of my wife's job.

Nuclear war is going to leave a nasty burn. Better were sunscreen.

Wear^^^^^ Fucking spell check.

It’s a good point about bank accounts. Some European countries have retirement visas that I might wish to use once I have finished working. Fortunately, I already have an EU bank account from my prior employment in the EU. How do you get an EU bank account without employer sponsorship and can you live in the EU without an EU account? For example, can you get a lease using a US account?

[quote] the Italians are very cliquish and if you think homophobia is bad in the US in Italy it's much worse.

Not just homophobia. That Black woman in the article is going to be in for big surprise when she settles in that small town in Sicily.

I somewhat have a virtual crush on you, Kaspar-Hauser R76

[quote] Europe isn't running full tilt towards religious fascism and violent revolution the way the US is.

Yes, by all means move to the continent of holy wars and crusades. Honey, how can you read the writing on the wall when your walls are padded?

[Quote] Physicians, in particular, are getting out now.

Can physicians just move and start working elsewhere as physicians? It doesn’t work the other way around—physicians in other countries have to retrain if they want to work in the US

OP- The couple in your photo look like they would live in Williamsburg or the San Francisco Bay Area.

New Zealand, not Australia.

Have your own income or bring a business to hire New Zealanders.

Doctors and engineers will be welcome.

R85, it varies by country. Some are harder up for well-trained physicians than others.

[quote]I'd look at Norway, Sweden, and possibly Ireland. Also check out Iceland and Greenland.

Oslo, Dublin, Stockholm, and Reykjavik rank with London and Paris as some of the most expensive cities in Europe.

I knew an American who overstayed her Schengen zone 6-month tourist visa by two years. She’d met a nice Dutch guy online and just went over there and started living with him.

If I'm going to be murdered for being gay, I may as well be killed here rather than some European country.

R83 / Dutchie, Thanks 🥰.

I should be able to answer this, but I am older and married: Can someone who actually lives in Europe talk about being Gay in day-to-day life? I live in a small community and I am pretty dull. I don't have recent experience with being Gay at work or openly gay in a mixed social setting. Pretty much, I have reached the point of critical mass where anyone one who is homophobic keeps it to himself as he knows the larger community would not approve. (A benefit of German group-think).

In my day, it was definitely "don't ask, don't tell". It was OK to be Gay, but don't bring it to work. Though, I loved the business phrase "spouse or functional equivalent".

Well, this means my chances of getting robbed of my virginity by an American have definitely increased.

Honestly though, I dread so many Americans coming to Europe. Even if they are literate, slightly intelligent and wealthy, I feel they will lower our European standards and take us to their inferior American standards regarding health services and education and aesthetics etc. And you could also argue that these rich or well-off people relocating to Europe are doing it for very selfish reasons. Otherwise they would stay in America. They don't care about Europe or their new country. It is simply a means to an end for them, which is to continue having a high living standards and to save money. They don't want to improve their own country. They simply fuck off. They don't care if their stay in Europe leads to higher pricer for the locals. They chose with their bank account, not with their hearts. These liberals have more in common with many Republicans.

R16 As long as she gets tons of uncut 12 inch cock and squeaky clean assholes more power to her. You can remain in a crime ridden American shithole,have a Reoubliklan as president and have all your rights taken away. She might be nuts but she is no crazier than you are.

Europe is incredibly expensive in any places that ate what most Americans are looking for.

If you want a rundown Needs Complete Renovation on a small town in Itsly, fine.

Housing prices in London, Paris, Geneva, Copenhagen, Stockholm, etc., are as high or higher, and the flats much smaller and don't usually offer top notch appliances. You can forget your granite countertops.

Then there's the lanvisge and taxation issues.

And wait till you see the cost of petrol in Europe, if you think you have it bad now in America.

Europe isn't Nirvana.

^* language and taxation issues

The usual moronic two-dimensional question without a shred of nuance behind it

Oh, did I forget to mention work permits and visas and leaving everyone you know, family and friends behind. Things as simple as reading the labels on foodstuffs become a major struggle daily.

It really isn't as easy as it's made to sound.

R96, actually, they often offer no appliances at all. It parts of Europe it is still common for the tenant to supply the entire kitchen. If you are lucky there are still the metal brackets for hanging cabinets left by the previous tenant.

The examples are all places with incentives like Golden Visa or cheap houses in the middle of nowhere. The people who can meet those requirements are few in number and hardly a "trend". Most of them could live comfortably in some part of the US, but it wouldn't have the glamor of moving to a dying town in Sicily.

Here in Germany, they rip out the kitchen when they move out of the house. It's bizarre. This is because landlords don't want to be responsible for the maintenance.

R93 to answer your question as a 35 y/o: It depends on the country, the city, the workplace. The more religious, the less open. The older the workplace, the more conservative. But being gay in a normal city: Totally fine, open at work, etc.

As always, when I speak of Europe, I don't speak of places like Albania, Romania, etc.

Id still do it. Gratefully. But New Zealand would be my first choice for permanent residence.

Can we just talk about the hot shirtless guy, please?

I'd only do it if I were very rich and could maintain a home where I live in the NY tristate area. To immerse myself in European culture and learn another language by immersing myself in it sounds like heaven. But of course lots of money is important to gain a certain amount of respect if not friendship, facilitate problems, not require a job for survival and do a lot of traveling and enjoying the best of accommodations and local cuisines.

This of course is not happening but it seems very pleasant.

In many instances, these countries can not support new citizens who arrive without their own income. You need to have your own income or have a skill that is in demand. New Zealand has an affordable housing crisis. This makes sense for a progressive country that is significantly smaller than the United States. The affordable housing crisis in the US makes no sense. New Zealand put the breaks on immigration but exceptions are made for new citizens who can contribute to the success of their country.

It's not that easy to simply move to Europe, not as easy as foreigners can come and live in the US.

It seems rich people can live anywhere they want, how many American can say they are very wealthy?

For Canada, IIRC, you have to show you have a job waiting for you or the American company you work for, is transferring you to Canada.

New Zealand is a very expensive country. Ditto any medium to large city in Western Europe. SE Asia is not the bargain it once was. These lifestyle type pieces are usually driven by whatever friends of the author seem to be doing. The laziest kind of trend reporting imaginable.

London is as expensive as NYC. In fact, most countries major cities are gentrifying as rapidly as NYC.

In a few years will there be anywhere for the working poor and middle income workers to to live?

How about people who keep the cities running? Cabbies, people who work in stores, cooks, maids, nannies, maintenance people etc. How do these people survive as rents get higher and higher?

Supers have a pretty great deal, they live rent free and depending where they work, there are many other perks, but everyone else, they don't have such great deals.

I am concluding people are flush with the cash they made from selling their house here US. Have a reserve of cash gives you options. Having options is freeing. I would consider moving overseas if my pile was larger and my side hustle stronger. I wouldn't consider moving to Florida or Texas.

Finding the responses from DLers who live abroad fascinating.

What other things do you think Americans would have a hard time adapting to? European friends who live in the US always talk about how dependent we are on our AC in the summer.

R109, a lot of those answers can be found in the thread linked below.

One of the main things I have noticed is the fact that the community comes before one's individual needs. There is no noise on Sundays. You cannot use a lawnmower, washing machine, vacuum, or a power tool. It drives Americans crazy. There are also noise laws regarding the use of washing machines, etc. after 10:00pm. on weekdays Germans take Ruhezeit (quite time) very seriously. An American stamping his feet and whining "You can't tell me what to do!" does not go over well with Germans

German shop closings. Again, in many German states stores close mid-day on Saturday and all day on Sunday. This is so workers have time with their families. My favorite American whine regarding this was the DL poster who was annoyed that he could not buy aspirin if he woke up with a hangover on Sunday. Either stock aspirin or don't drink to excess. German's aren't really big on sympathy. Really not sympathetic to whining such as this.

Mexico and Central America are cheaper destination and have a ton of American ex-pats.

Or just wait--housing prices are in a bubble. They will tumble soon enough

[quote] The examples are all places with incentives like Golden Visa or cheap houses in the middle of nowhere.

Correct. You can find the same inexpensive houses in rural Pennsylvania or anywhere else in the U.S. outside of popular cities. Just because it's in Italy or France and sounds exotic, it's still their version of rural Pennsylvania -- or even Alabama (you can find old southern mansions for pennies on the dollar if you want to fix them up, same as those cheap castles in Europe).

R112, except they want to get away from Black and brown people

More white Americans with money are relocating to Europe.

R110 I don't want to get into an argument about European identity and whether the self image of Germans in relation to Americans is accurate (I'd definitely say no.)

However, you just described Blue Laws and HOA rules. In the U.S. both of these things are considered undesirable because they are associated with Republicans. No wonder rich Americans get the idea in their heads that Europe is a giant gated community!

I know an American family that actually did this after Trump was elected, they didn't think America was an appropriate place to raise their children anymore.

One of their daughters is a tween and was on the chubby side of normal American weight when they lived here. They have to ask American friends to mail them clothing, still, because although they've been in Europe for several years she's never slimmed down. Apparently it's impossible to find clothes for her in the country they moved to and even Amazon won't ship most clothing there. They have to go on shopping trips to the UK.

Europe has no fatties?

I know two guys who live in France half the year (actually180 days, the maximum) and in the US or somewhere else the other half.

Both have advanced degree, WFH jobs. They are upper-middle class; but not rich. Of course they’ve got no kids. They are willing to travel back to the states on little notice for “really important” face-to-face meetings.

Not a complete US escape; but it works for them.

That should go really well. Americans are such famously good travellers.

R117 Apparently not. I don't keep up with them, but a mutual friend bought the daughter a bathing suit and was surprised that it was a normal size.

That girl's going to end up with an eating disorder, if she doesn't have one already 😬

The problem with the retirement and remote working visas are they are subject to economic trends and the whimsy of politics. They can be cancelled or tightened up without any guarantee of grandfathering your status. It’s a glorified extended tourist visa, and you are ultimately a guest without full rights. Anything less than obtaining citizenship and a passport leaves you ultimately vulnerable…especially when Gilead arrives to the USA.. Even permanent residence or indefinite leave to remain status can be revoked for a variety of reasons. If you can obtain a passport track visa through investment or occupation, go for it. If you are eligible for an ancestry passport, definitely go for it. Ireland and Italy are the most common for Americans., I have an American friend who recently obtained German citizenship and passport after a long three year application and interview process because she was a descendent of victims of the Holocaust. That speaks volumes that she is that worried about the US to such a degree that was the route she took. Btw, renouncing your US citizenship is also expensive and time consuming. There are years long waiting lists for US embassy appointments in some countries. I know someone in Switzerland who is still waiting over two years. They make it hard, It’s like leaving the Mafia, Neither party in the US has any sympathy for Americans abroad. You’re viewed with suspicion for different reasons. All other countries view their citizens abroad as ‘mini ambassadors’ and a good thing. Not the USA.

I have an EU passport, but I would still need a job (maybe teaching English?).

Is that Harry Hamlin in Op's photo?

Vich countries offer Einstein vizas?

Why would you give up your US citizenship to live abroad. Do most EU countries require that step?

At this point, why would you keep it? I was thinking today, suppose to the country does slide to the Republicans, suppose Trump does come back and starts dismantling the "deep state"... what happens to the actual thoughtful and talented? Do the Obamas stay? Do the Clintons? Does everybody flee? Because rule of law if is doesn't go out the window is being interpreted by increasingly conservative judges. I know it's hard to imagine but if the House goes in November, is it time to start seriously thinking about getting out?

R125, if you keep your US citizenship, you would still have to pay US taxes even if you don’t live in the US

Yes. But you can be subject to an exit tax when you surrender. In addition, because taxes are almost always higher in Europe, you will usually not have a tax liability in the US after credit for the foreign taxes.

I realise the US is not what it used to be, but giving up your US citizenship just so you don’t have to file a US tax return seems reckless

r127 if you make over a certain amount ~$100K I think. You still have to file.

[quote]There are also noise laws regarding the use of washing machines, etc. after 10:00pm. on weekdays Germans take Ruhezeit (quite time) very seriously.

Funny you should mention that. I follow a few UK actors who are currently performing in Germany, and they decided to watch Love Island the other night after 10PM. Their German neighbor called the police on them for being too loud. They were outraged that such a thing could happen for talking too loudly whilst watching television. Having lived under my share of asshole neighbors over the years, I'm kind of loving it, though police involvement does seem a bit extreme. However, inconsiderate neighbors are the absolute worst, and if I could have called the police on my old neighbor who used to do her Jane Fonda workout tape at 1am over my bedroom, I fucking would have.

I think it's hilarious someone spoke about a subconscious mentality of superiority regarding Americans who end up pissing off to their fantasy of Europe. When most of the assholes on this thread clogging it up with their American hatred fulfill the stereotype of the elitist European.

Anyone considering giving up his US citizenship is a fool. First, just because you renounce your US citizenship, it does not mean that your host country will grant you citizenship. You will very likely end up stateless, which can cause a huge amount of problems in your host country and even get you deported.

It actually does cost that much to renounce your citizenship. I believe it is still under $3,000.00 US. Everyone acts like that is a huge amount of money, but when one considers the scope of the act, it is actually rather cheap.

The huge problem is the exit tax. Also, you cannot have *any* outstanding tax debts in the USA. Leaving the USA to avoid tax debts is not possible.

Lastly, It is not reversible. You cannot decide you have made a mistake and get your US citizenship back.

R131, If you are including me in that comment, I am an American.

If you give up your US citizenship, do you also give up Social Security? That's not an option for most.

I do know if you move to the UK, your credit score starts over at like zero.

R132. Yes. Whatever you may think of the US, millions upon millions of people would still kill to have US citizenship. To throw it away when you don’t need to seems like sheer stupidity.

[quote]The huge problem is the exit tax. Also, you cannot have *any* outstanding tax debts in the USA. Leaving the USA to avoid tax debts is not possible.

Unless you are a criminal politician. This law only seems to apply to the little people.

OP- That good looking man in your photo should relocate himself to my man cave so I can pull down his shorts and underwear and LICK 👅 his BALLS and SUCK his COCK 😋

If you mean Boris Johnson, he held dual citizenship. Dual citizenship is another issue and has a whole other group of problems. Yul Brynner had to renounce his US citizenship because he worked too much in the USA and his taxes would have bankrupted him.

R122. Yes. See articles 6 and 7 from Directive 2004/38 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Members States.

[Quote] If you give up your US citizenship, do you also give up Social Security?

No, even noncitizens (legals) who have worked in the US qualify for SS. If anyone moves out the country, they still get the SS they earned by paying into the system

^meant to add—one must pay into SS for 10 years to qualify

[quote]If you mean Boris Johnson, he held dual citizenship. Dual citizenship is another issue and has a whole other group of problems. Yul Brynner had to renounce his US citizenship because he worked too much in the USA and his taxes would have bankrupted him.

Boris was actually born in New York on the Upper East Side. This explains why BJ has dual citizenship.

"Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson was born on 19 June 1964 in the Upper East Side of Manhattan, New York City to 23-year-old Stanley Johnson, then studying economics at Columbia University, and 22-year-old Charlotte Fawcett, an artist from a family of liberal intellectuals. Johnson's parents had married in 1963 before moving to the United States.

In September 1964, they returned to their native England, so that Charlotte could study at the University of Oxford; during this time, she lived with her son in Summertown, a suburb of Oxford, and in 1965 she gave birth to a daughter, Rachel.

In July 1965, the family moved to Crouch End in north London, and in February 1966 they relocated to Washington, D.C., where Stanley had gained employment with the World Bank. Stanley then took a job with a policy panel on population control, and moved the family to Norwalk, Connecticut, in June. A third child, Leo, was born in September 1967.

In 1969, the family returned to England and settled into West Nethercote Farm, near Winsford in Somerset, Stanley's remote family home on Exmoor in the West Country."

Move to Norway. We lack nurses, doctors, waiters, chefs, bus drivers, taxi drivers etc. Everyone earn a living wage. We don't even tip here. Also: 5 weeks PAID vacation a year, free health care, free university degrees, 1 year paid maternity leave, 3 months paid paternity leave, paid sick leave etc.

R142 I am cumming!!

[quote] Yul Brynner had to renounce his US citizenship because he worked too much in the USA and his taxes would have bankrupted him

That makes no sense. He would have to pay U.S. taxes on work he did in the U.S. regardless of his citizenship or where he lived. On the other hand, if most of his work is OUTSIDE the U.S., then he would be better off giving up his US citizenship, because otherwise the U.S. would tax him on that foreign income as well.

R144, at the time a foreigner working in the USA was tax exempt if one was not working/ living full time. Brynner had been working as a Swiss national, not a US citizen. However, he was working consistently and living here full time, and overstayed the threshold.

A foreigner working in the USA has never been "tax exempt" from his wage income earned in the U.S.

R146, then I guess every article, his bios (including the one written by his son) , and his Wiki page are wrong.

R147. I don’t think those articles necessarily say the income he earned while in the US would be exempt from US tax. It could be that he lost the exemption from US tax on his worldwide income. It would be fairly unusual if the income you earn while in the US were exempt from US tax. However, it was a long time ago so possibly that is true.

Apart from the gun violence, the USA is a very safe country. The nation’s geography makes it virtually impossible for a foreign enemy to invade.

^ Bless your heart.

It's hard to explain the allure of foreign countries to Americans. As a whole, they are not adventurous when it comes to other countries and cultures. Not all obviously, but many Americans are too comfortable in their bubbles to realize life can be better elsewhere.

Partner and I are working on a life as expats within the next two years. Agreed, it helps that I have a professional degree and have achieved financial independence (all debt but mortgage paid off). Too many Americans don't have either and are stuck just trying to survive. Or they throw their money away on stupid crap. Or they throw their time away on stupid crap. Or both. Some people just prefer stupid.

Hell half this country voted for Trump the second time around and the other voted for 33% Joe.

We need to resist the urge to run away and stay and fight.

Let's trade - we'll take some of those Americans back if Europe takes the Sussexes.

^ Europe is not just the Royal Family or Paris. Just like the US is not just Trump and the Kardashians (or is it...?)

R154, who said it was?

^ R155 Most Americans

And America is more than New York, Florida, and California on one hand and Mississippi on the other hand.

I can’t afford to

[quote] They might get a cheap property, but it could also be a lonely experience without family or friends.

So pretty much the same as here for these pipe-dreamers. Remember, wherever you go -- there you are.

Does Italy have a government at the moment?

R159 Some people have family and/or friends better left behind. More power to those who aren't afraid to see if the grass is greener on the other side.

Only one way to find out.

R161 - That's not what I'm talking about, but I suspect you knew that. I'm talking about the reason why someone would move. Often times (but not exclusively) the problems from which someone is running are actually within themselves. You go to the moon, but you're still gonna be you. I think a good number of those "fleeing" America are in fact trying to flee themselves and using the country as an excuse. They're in for a rude awakening that America is not so terribly different in its flawed humanity, and neither are they.

And on a side note, if these people are so convinced that the U.S. is so reviled around the world -- what makes them think these same countries would even want to take in ex-pats? Especially whiny, self-entitled ones?

These threads on "moving to x" always reveal how clueless posters are about moving to a different country. It works if you know people and something of the culture/language. Otherwise, it tends not live up to the supposed glamour and romance or even practicality that people imagine. And even relatively cheap countries often have hidden costs (corruption, inefficiency, hurricanes, etc.). Its not surprising that expat havens often seem to have a lot of glum expats.

R163. But have you seen A Summer in Tuscany?

I always have this conversation and the one thing I’d always like to point out is the US is #1 on disposable income.

I’ve had Italians and people from the Mediterranean tell me you can basically afford to maintain your rent and eat and that’s it. Someone from Albania or around those areas said you get a paycheck once a month!

Europeans are simpler than Americans. It was like Marlene Dietrich said in Europe you buy a car that will last you 15 years whereas in the US you need one every 3-4 years.

That is an important point. It can be great to accumulate your wealth and retire in Europe but it’s not so fun to work at European wages, which can be dramatically lower than in the US.

I know a few who want to move to Costa Rica......One who did, a fairly wealthy gambler, got robbed leaving a casino there ....by the casinos owners.

was he raped?

R166 Right. I worked in a tourist town for 10 years and broke ass American families go on vacation.

Americans like Walmart, Costco, and Vegas.

Europeans come to the US and the first thing they notice how big and over the top everything is. The food portions, the square footage, the Walmarts and Costcos, etc.

The simple life of Europeans is only appealing to the American hipsters and affluent. We regular American folks can’t fuck with how small and simple the lifestyle is.

Tammy from the Greenfield Mobile Park would think Paris sucks compared to Vegas.

I lived and worked in Italy for many years. Have been back in the US for over 3 years now but I plan to go back.

[quote]I always have this conversation and the one thing I’d always like to point out is the US is #1 on disposable income.

This is true. Wages are low, it's harder to accumulate money BUT I lived a beautiful lifestyle. It fit me perfectly. And it is not something I could ever duplicate in the US.

[quote] If you give up your US citizenship, do you also give up Social Security?

[quote] No, even noncitizens (legals) who have worked in the US qualify for SS. If anyone moves out the country, they still get the SS they earned by paying into the system

However, you DO lose the ability to benefit from Medicare, as it does not pay for expenses incurred outside the US. And in many cases, newcomers are not eligible for their new country's government health insurance.

Correct, R171 — In most EU countries, if you're 40/45/50+, you'll have to enrol in the private health care system instead of the state-subsidised public health care.

Presumably healthcare is much cheaper in Europe, however even if you have to take out your own insurance.

R173, I pay about $300.00 US a month for early 60s and in excellent health.

That is quite cheap compared to the US.

The driver test in Italy is notoriously difficult.

Driving in Italy is ridiculously difficult... couldn't wait to get the fuck off those roads.

At least Italy has walkable towns and cities as well as an extensive low cost transportation system. I never owned a car there.

If you care about the mechanics of how it can be done, there is a long discussion in this currently active thread that expands on the visas, citizenship by ancestry and other options, employment prospects, retirement and freelance and digital nomad options, Social Security and Medicare, options and costs for private insurance vs. national healthcare, etc.

[quote]I always have this conversation and the one thing I’d always like to point out is the US is #1 on disposable income. [R165]

[quote]This is true. Wages are low, it's harder to accumulate money BUT I lived a beautiful lifestyle. It fit me perfectly. And it is not something I could ever duplicate in the US. [R170]

I moved from the U.S. to Europe a few years ago, but for none of the political or economic reasons in the article. My only regret is not having done it sooner. My experience echoes R170's observation. The everyday pleasure of where and how I live outshine how I might have lived in the U.S. even with a far greater budget.

Quality of life means different things for different people. I don't need a car here so give no thought to whether I buy one to last a European 15 years or and American 3 years. I don't miss Walmarts and Costcos because I didn't use them in the U.S.. I'm very happy with the house that I have and don't miss having something much larger house with unused rooms to fill with impulse buys bought with disposable income but no clear purpose; nor do I miss a lawn that I had to hire someone to mow. I don't miss pulling teeth to meet friends for drinks with endless rounds of planning and rescheduling and cancelation and agreeing to try again and repeat -- until itś just easier to forget the drinks and forget the friends. I see doctors and electricians and cabinetmakers and shop clerks who make remarkably similar incomes, incomes that would be impossible in the U.S.;. They grumble that they would like more money but they are happy. They have friends and families and they have no trouble finding someone to do something spur of the moment. And they have the month of August off to go to the beach or the mountains, and an extra month's salary in December, and they get in trouble with their employer if they don't take their 30 vacation days off, when they like. Comparing salaries or personal assets might seem shocking, but the real shock is how different are the things that may be more difficult to quantify but are much easier to appreciate.

The option to move to Europe turns on ancestry, on wealth, on portability of jobs or income, on filling some unicorn-like labor shortage position, on the ability to retire early, on imagination and nerve to start something new without a huge reserve to fall back on, or being able to make do with less money coming in, or the resolve to make it happen. For most people the elements of choice in such a decision will never align with desire, and that's probably for the best. I think you have to want to be in a new place much more than you want to escape an old one or stretch your dollar further or some spreadsheet cost-benefit analysis.

[Quote]I’ve had Italians and people from the Mediterranean tell me you can basically afford to maintain your rent and eat and that’s it. Someone from Albania or around those areas said you get a paycheck once a month!

I stayed with a lovely family in Sicily and one son worked at a grocery store and made about €800/month, the other son worked in street construction (100+ degrees in summer!!!) and also earned less than €1000/month. The daughter had a university degree and worked as a teacher in Northern Italy and made €700/month. They told me these were normal salaries in Italy. I was curious how they could afford rent and food with these salaries and they told me that most people in Italy own property or live with their parents/family. The parents rent parts of their house to tourists every summer bc their pensions are very low. It seems like they all help each other out with food, money or accommodation. Although they did not have much money, they invited me to eat or have drinks with them almost every day while I was staying with them. The mother often brought me cake and leftovers for lunch. This was an Airbnb rental. None of them has ever left Italy.

I think you only get a paycheck only once a month almost everywhere in Europe and not every 2 weeks.

That’s true, R181. Most Europeans get a monthly salary instead of bi-weekly checks.

These threads always devolve into Americans acting like the world is a big scary place where they can't get into their gas guzzler and get to the McDonalds or Walmart ot Starbucks drive through.

R181 gets it but its lost on everyone else...

Love the part about cheap trinkets and disposable income to fill useless rooms with no purpose. Sums up Americans pretty accurately, blind mass consumption and drifting into more of the same.

That's some Quality of Life.

One thing that Americans should be aware of is that the further north one goes, the less chitchat is tolerated. My understanding is that by the time one gets to Finland, there is zero tolerance. Yes, a generalization , but as a whole northern Europeans don't talk mindlessly for human connection. The kind of mindless chatter that is common in the USA, and in some areas actually considered a social grace, is less common in Northern Europe. Silence does not have the negative connotations that it has in the USA. If there is a break in conversation, one simply experiences the silence together. There is less a need to comment on the silence or actively break it; however, there is a stronger sense of "wasting my time".

This also applies to the content of conversation. Again, there is less *mindless* chatter. Conversations tend to have more content. I am not saying that everyone is discussing Goethe and Schiller, but there is definitely a culture of "If you don't have anything to say, don't say anything at all".

Lastly, there is much less speculation. I find American women particularly have a problem with this. They love to spend hours playing "what if?". Again, it is a way of making a human contact in the USA. It generally gets shut down rather abruptly in the north, which is perceived by Americans as rude.

[quote] the further north one goes, the less chitchat is tolerated

Interesting, there is a similar concept in the U.S., considering southern states consider it part of their charm to chitchat, but northern states are more stoic and silent (think Fargo).

R185, true. However, many Americans are still shocked by this, particularly people from large US cities and people who are used to a business culture that presents the front that coworkers are also friends.

Relocating is a privilege.

I’m an introvert and even I was shocked by how unfriendly people were in Finland. I went to a gay bar to meet locals and nobody mingled…everyone just stayed with their small group of friends while the dance floor remained empty. It wasn’t until I went to close my tab that a good looking older guy showed interest, but by then my self-esteem was in the gutter.

Even people who aren’t very social would be shocked to find how outright cold Northern Europeans can be. And it might sound amazing from the comfort of a life that’s familiar, but when you’re thrown into a life that’s unfamiliar, it can change your outlook. Living in Europe I often find myself jumping at the chance to engage in small talk or get to know others (which I hated doing back home).

R184: Having lived in the South, all I can say is "Thank God", the need for seemingly mindless chitchat diminishes as one goes North. As for "charm", it's really about drawing people out and getting their measure. The idea that it is polite or friendly is simply fiction perpetuated by Southerners.

R188 - I know what you mean about small talk. I hated it as an introvert in the US, but I sometimes crave it here. I’m in southern England which is the most reserved part of the country. One thing, I wish I got a dog here years sooner. It’s the ultimate public ice breaker here, and all of the rigid social rules melt away. More strangers initiate conversation with me with a dog in a month than a year or more without a dog. If I take him to a pub or cafe, I always end up having a long conversation with a random person. always starting with a comment about the dog I usually have to then hear about their trip to NYC, Las Vegas or Orlando, but I don’t mind, haha. It’s the price you pay for having an accent.

R183 It's very frustrating having endless nasty, negative stereotypes about you thrown in your face by people whose impression of you and your culture seems to come from TV shows and daydreams.

My main takeaway from these threads is usually that Europeans are seething bigots who project their insecurities on whoever they feel they won't be punished for hating.

You would never talk about Central Americans or Africans the way you talk about us, but many of the traits you whine about are ones we share with non-European cultures. Funny.

Americans warning each other not to fall for the hype about Europe and not to buy into the European self-image is not hatred, by the way.

We're looking out for each other, and hopefully sparing you more ugly Americans in your midst, so you ought to be thanking us.

Let's get the word out, Americans, that Europeans are shallow and mean and you likely won't be happy there. Apparently you have to undergo something of a religious conversion in order to really blend in there.

R191: I call it exactly what it is—whether in real life or online—XENOPHOBIA. On Reddit I’ve successfully reported dozens of people for making passing comments that would never be tolerated if you replaced “Americans” with “Mexicans,” “Syrians,” or “Nigerians.”

In real life I try to be a good ambassador for the US, but the few times people have doubled down on showing disdain for Americans, I play into the stereotype that reeeeeally pisses them off: I adopt an arrogance that implies I don’t care about them or their country because the USA is the only one that matters. Of course I don’t believe that, but it’s a good defense mechanism.

Americans are the thinnest skinned of people, R191/R192, quick to remind us how terrible French waiters are, how stinky the French are, how haughty, and worst of all how the French are forgetful that they owe everything to Americans. Americans are quick to call every country in Europe a third-world shithole, and then to get uppity when the citizens of those countries don't behave as quaint folkloric serfs doing quaint things with their quaint accents and quaint musical instruments. They question the "whiteness" of every European country to assert their superior American superiority as the Number 1 people. They accuse Europeans of wanting to steal their American dreams and freedoms and jobs, and get righteously pissed off if those Europeans seem insufficiently in awe of U.S. strip malls and chain restaurants and famous work ethic of scrum meetings to plan scrum meetings.

By "shallow and mean," what I think you mean is "not in awe". Americans want to play the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral and to get a standing ovation for the effort. In truth, Europeans don't want to be Americans or to fuck Americans or to fuck Americans over; they don't even hate you or even dislike you. It's the indifference to those things that pisses Americans off, the lack of awe and deference.

Americans want to win everything. And for that they need winners and losers. Always. Europeans don't feel the need to get their elbows out to "beat down their competition" - why are they even competing? Is there some point? They are less quick to see difference as inferiority, as the stuff of losers. They are less bombastic, less Trumpian, less interested in keeping score and being Number 1.

R193,

1. I am an American.

2. By putting you on ignore, I can see all of your posts at once and see just what a miserable, whiny, negative nelly you are. You live outside Munich, but you have absolutely nothing positive to say. You write that you play at being the ugly American as a defense mechanism, but you *are* the ugly American.

R193 I mean, specifically with Europeans it some kind of cultural pathology that I guess must be necessary for them. In order to build a European identity and not an ethnic or nationalistic one .They have to create an idea of themselves and then enforce it with steteotypes.

Building up an American straw man in their heads and then tying their self image to NOT being like that straw man. I think that's where all of these bizarre prejudices and stereotypes are coming from, ultimately.

Also, why they Will. Not. Listen. when corrected about a misconception. When I was in Germany this drove me crazy, Germans are really bad about just making assumptions and then treating their own assumptions like God's own truth.

I got repeatedly reassured one time by a host family I was staying with that another American student who had stayed with them didn't know what chicken was until they told her.

Obvious horseshit, there was a miscommunication of some kind. I ended up almost getting into an argument with the dad and having to let it go since I was obviously insulting them by implying they had misunderstood. To this day they still believe she didn't know what chicken was.

R195 Did you move to Germany as child? You've made multiple comments that indicate an ignorance of life in the U.S.

Not to be a dick, but you've explained snow to the Eskimos multiple times on this thread. That indicates a level of cultural ignorance you wouldn't expect from a native.

Why are you coming for me Kaspar-Hauser? I often agree with your posts and don’t recall ever trashing you (especially if you sign your posts).

I happen to be someone whose overall quality of life has diminished since moving to Germany. I love to travel and will always recommend people visit Europe (my favorite continent) and visit Germany in particular. However, living here is not easy and I get annoyed by people insinuate it’s some sort of Utopia.

Also, I’ve never dealt with a German in-person who treated me with disdain for being American. They’re ALWAYS an immigrant who thinks they’re putting me in my place, so I proceed to put them in theirs. And I suppose I paint an overly-negative picture so that Americans have no illusions about life abroad.

R193, because I thought you were also R191. This is why it is important to authenticate.

R198 I'm not coming for him, I just don't understand why the things he's saying are so off.

My assumption is that he must not have lived in the U.S. as an adult. There are plenty of U.S. citizens in Germany who were mostly raised in Germany, he might be one.

R200, I have lived in the USA most of my life. I bought property there in the 1990s , because I was smart enough to invest in real estate in the former East Germany. As mentioned several times, I live about half the year in New England and half the year in the USA. My current house is on the Baltic Sea and I rent it out in summer.

Give an example of something I have said about the USA that is "off".

R201 You don't appear to know what noise ordinances, Blue Laws, or HOA regulations are. Nor what the general attitude and political climate around them is. It seems crazy to sit and explain something that exists in the U.S. to Americans like it's some amazing new concept.

That is, honestly, something a German would do lol 😆

The cold northern thing, no tolerance for chitchat is me to a point. Also the blunt honesty, preferably unsolicited.

Yes, I‘m a real charm.

And cunty, Dutchie. Tee hee.

While the upper middle class Americans with digital jobs move to Europe, the middle class are moving to ...Tijuana to save money to afford a house in San Diego.

R202, I do understand them. You do not. US noise ordinances are usually based on decibels, not an outright ban. Also, there is a huge difference between a dorm or an apartment having a rule that one cannot not run a washing machine after 10:00 and a municipal ordinance that will bring the police to your door. Yes, the police will come if you are throwing a wild party or blasting your stereo, but the US police would laugh you silly if you complained about a lawnmower at noon on a Sunday. When buying a house in the USA, one can avoid buying in an HOA community. In Germany, you cannot avoid Ruhezeit. It is law.

The German shopping restrictions may have originally had a religious reason, but the modern rules are based on the unions demand that workers have family time. This is in very stark contrast to the current American practice of forcing employees to work on Thanksgiving, etc. Also, it is, to varying degrees country wide in Germany. It is not the same as Bergan County having a Sunday closing law when much of NJ does not.

Your response is why Americans get in trouble in Germany. Their attitude is, " Yeah, yeah, we have noise ordinances in the USA. No big deal.", then they find out just how BIG a deal it is in Germany.

I hope all these American émigrés to Europe like wearing scarfs indoors. They do that over there even when the Russian gas is on.

[quote] I live about half the year in New England and half the year in the USA. My current house is on the Baltic Sea and I rent it out in summer.

Hmm, maybe my math is bad, but your house is on the Baltic Sea, yet you live in the USA 50% of the time and New England the other 50% of the time.

R208, sorry, my mind is somewhere else. Just had our cat put down.

R206 Boy you drank the Kool-Aid.

Lol that you brought up Bergen County, I was going to bring up Bergen County!

Call me an ugly American, so be it. Germans repackaging their religious laws as secular piety is a political and cultural difference, the religious laws are the same laws and have the same roots. These laws are actually a similarity between the two countries.

I know in Ireland there's a similar negative attitude toward these laws that there is in the U.S. They're seen as backward and oppressive.

Grand wanted to keep doing things the way they'd always done them and supplied a new justification after the old one no longer sufficed. Again, cultural difference.

None of this was mentioned in your original posts, which I still find weird since you were writing to other Americans.

I'm sorry about your cat.

Back in the 1980s I first visited London and sort of liked how most shops and “chemists” were open until around 2 pm and then shut for the rest of the weekend. A weekend really did feel like a weekend. Not anymore. It’s just like NYC now. I sort of miss that.

Sorry, forgot to put in how most shops and “chemists” were open on Saturdays until around 2 pm and then shut down for the rest of the weekend.

In Italy supermarkets and all shops used to be closed on Sundays. And also Wednesday afternoon in the case of supermarkets. For the last 10 years they've been allowed to be open on those days.

It is such a shame.

Italy's restrictive laws put all business owners on the same footing. Now, the only business that can afford to be open 7 days a week are chains and national/international businesses. They can also extend hours into the evening.

The small shops, the "mom. and pop" shops. The shops that add to Italy's charm. The shops that create lively streets and form community can't compete with that.

Italy's laws restricting opening hours were actually PROGRESSIVE.

But it's something Americans will not be able to understand.

R213 No. It is a cultural difference. You just sat through a discussion of Blue Laws in the U.S., surely you must have caught the gist of some of it. CULTURAL DIFFERENCES. Jesus fucking Christ.

Also, I and every American on this thread are capable of understanding why Italy has the laws that it has. Are you capable of understanding why we have ours?

I spent a miserable week in Sweden, during their Christian holiday Easter. Everything was closed from Thursday to Tuesday during their "holy week". No bars, restaurants, shops were open.

And these people were the world's biggest killers just 1000 years ago.

R215 You know what's funny, I worked at pharmacy near a national landmark one year and on Christmas Day we were flooded with British and European backpackers because we were the only place open besides gas stations. They were all very nice.

How are these two facts related r215?

[quote]And these people were the world's biggest killers just 1000 years ago.

FFS, what kind of time standard is that? "Just 1000 years ago"?

What were your people doing only 650 years before the Black Plague? It seems like yesterday. Show us the photos.

I remember the millennium was insane in the UK. I think the POST OFFICE was shut for ten days.

R218 Surely you have heard of Vikings? Not sure what type of hole you live under.

In Sweden shops, bars and restaurants close for a couple of days and Swedes use that downtime to spend time with family and outdoor activities. American tourists complain bc they can't shop and spend money for 5 days. That's what Americans are used to do on national holidays, right? Spend as much money as possible on useless shit and Americans are obviously even too stupid to plan ahead a couple of days so supermarkets and drug stores have to be open 24/7 or they will starve.

Also, R215 was in a beautiful country that offers a variety of outdoor activities, but he's obviously unable to enjoy himself unless it involves spending money, going to a bar or shopping. Sad.

R221 You're disgusting.

It was a bit of an adjustment, but now I love the fact that life truly comes to a halt on Sundays and holidays. We can all wait 1-2 days to shop.

[quote]Surely you have heard of Vikings? Not sure what type of hole you live under.

R215/R220: Alzheimer's? Autism? Aspberger's? Let me explain and if you don't get it this time, maybe just let it drop.

[quote]And these people [Swedes/Vikings] were the world's biggest killers just 1000 years ago.

My point was at R218 wasn't that I thought Daguerre had it all figured out 1000 years ago, or that I don't know about the Vikings, but that citing "just 1000 ago" as some indicator of the qualities of modern Swedes is a ridiculous point of reference. Not many peoples have an unblemished record of virtue and charity extending back 1000 years. Citing what someone's ancestors were doing 1000 years ago is useful indicator of nothing.

[quote]Also, I and every American on this thread are capable of understanding why Italy has the laws that it has. Are you capable of understanding why we have ours?

In the US stores were also closed on Sunday. And closed after 6pm. That changed in the 1960s.

At restaurants over there they charge for bread if you can believe it. And do Europeans even know about free refills?

Meanwhile, in Southern Europe you better be prepared to talk for hours on end. While walking, while working out, while on the train, etc... Dinnertime in Spain (10ish) is all about the sobremesa. Sitting for hours on end over tapas that are maybe 20 Euros max for the whole table without the restaurant staff rushing you out.

It's a nice transition from American phone zombieism, but after a while it gets to be a bit much. My Spanish hosts did comment that Germans are so quiet.

[quote]At restaurants over there they charge for bread if you can believe it. And do Europeans even know about free refills?

In the US you are required to leave a 20 percent tip. And sales tax.

If you can believe it.

But we get free bread and the refills keep on coming!

[quote] In the US you are required to leave a 20 percent tip.

No you aren’t. WTF are you talking about? You don’t have to tip if you don’t want to. It’s considered a courtesy.

R225 It was a great liberal crusade for decades to defend the separation of church and state to have blue laws overturned. The ACLU has a lot to do with it (there are still areas of the country that have these laws in effect.) Now the choice is left to businesses in most places, though.

...or, you know, Americans are fat greedy pig monsters who have no rhyme or reason to the things we do. That's the enlightened, sophisticated opinion apparently.

[quote]And do Europeans even know about free refills?

At my local highway diner, a cup of their crappy watery coffee is now $2.68 + sales tax + tip. So you wind up spending 4 dollars.

But yes, there are refills.

However, at my local coffee bar in Italy, housed in a gorgeous historic structure with professional baristas, an artfully made cappuccino is 1.50 Euro (currently about 1.50 USD). Not tax. No tip.

Which one do you think is the better deal? Which one do you think is more satisfying?

[quote]No you aren’t. WTF are you talking about? You don’t have to tip if you don’t want to. It’s considered a courtesy.

Yeah. I imagine you are one of those who get up without tipping.

R227? I want to retire in Spain, but I cannot even imagine eating that late. Can I eat three meals a day like a reg'lar American? I'm doing the 16-8 fast and I eat my three meals at 10AM, 2PM, and 6PM.

TIA

[quote]In the US you are required to leave a 20 percent tip. And sales tax.

And the waiter, yes the audibly tsky, eye-rolling one with the markedly impatient upsell technique who otherwise has been both scarce and a disapproving uppity cunt since all night, will appear with the bill and fake smiles. But you'll never please him. Leave a $300 tip on a $300 meal and you'll see the "smile" turn to contempt in a split second. He deserved so much more, you see. He has bills to pay. And customers to belittle with his "better than you" glances.

In Italy don't even think about sitting down in a restaurant before 7:30 PM. Dinner is at 8 on up. In the summer, 9 is an average time. But people are eating and ordering at out door cafes at 10, at 11.

If you’re moving from the coastal US you’ll find Mediterranean beaches are pretty mediocre.

Even the Riviera, R237?

Yes r237... not sand, rocks mostly.

Yes [R237]... not sand, rocks mostly.

Ridiculous.

Google beach Nice France

The beach at Nice is a shingle beach. The sound of the waves breaking on the stones and then pulling back into the sea is very pleasant.

[quote]If you’re moving from the coastal US you’ll find Mediterranean beaches are pretty mediocre.

Yeah, pretty mediocre!

R242 Everything is better in Europe, just by virtue of being in Europe- even if these same things would be considered mediocre or even undesirable in other places.

I'm actually not trying to tell you you're wrong, it's beautiful to appreciate the individual charm of a place and its unique details.

This thread is really working a theme, though.

R234 Lunch is the main meal in Spain. Dinner is like happy hour - light bites like tapas. Especially in tourist areas, you will be able to find dinner as early as 5 in some places - all the tourists eat then. It's actually a great time to eat because restaurants aren't busy and are quiet.

I actually started a 16:8 fast after a period of regular travels to Spain. I don't eat after 10pm and resume eating at 2pm. That window worked tremendously well for me and probably could for you with some minor tweaks to actual eating times.

[quote] I don't eat after 10pm and resume eating at 2pm.

That's fasting? How is that different than someone who just skips breakfast?

R245, I lost 40 lbs. doing it and I've kept it off over a year (with plenty of exercise as well), so I don't want to mess with something that's working. Glad to hear how it's working for you, and thanks for your reply!

R209 Awww, I’m so sorry.

In Europe doors open weird for Americans. You think it’s a push, but it’s really a pull and vice versa.

R246 Not much difference, really.

The key focus in intermittent fasting is the time between meals (fasting period) -16 hours non-eating to 8 hours eating (not the entire time, that's just the window) if one is doing a 16:8. There are other methods of fasting (like not eating for a whole day once a week). There are trendy apps that help one fast (not sure why help is needed) that promote things like 8-12 hour fasts, which are of dubious utility.

I've tried explaining how easy intermittent fasting is to people, but the thought of not eating for 16 hours perplexes most.

The simplest way to move anywhere in the EU is by enrolling in a language school. Then you can extend your studies by the year.

R6 Wrong.

People can't just pack their bags and move to a foreign country. You need to get a job first and apply for a work visa and after a few years apply for citizenship which is all different regarding the country. It would cost a lot of money too. People who are independently wealthy have an easier time with this.

It is almost impossible to get a job without first being here. Your Visa will be turned down if you apply from the US. First step, show up. If you have the means for a few months you will be given a job seeker visa and then you hustle and create a life. If you do it the way R6 suggests you will be in the US forever.

There are also one euro houses for sale in Spain and France, as well as Italy. Unless you are a multi-skilled builder or contractor with excellent language mastery, it is not advised. There are now a number of companies which have bought these one euro homes and restored them and they sell for €15,000-50,000. But unless you are a hermit not needing outside services, this should not be anything more than a holiday home. There may be a local doctor within half an hour, but you may be over an hour from a hospital. And in southern Italy, even in the cities, the hospitals are sub-standard.

Some people make a great success of being an expat. They learn the language and integrate well in their hamlet or village, or there is a big enough expat community to absorb them. Others are desperately lonely and some are even killed. And consider - if you come from London or San Francisco or Boston, what exactly are you going to have in common with Italian or Spanish farmers who have never been more than 5 km from their rural village? Of course, if you're wealthy, it's not so hard. Rich people have homes all over the world.

There are numerous blogs and Facebook groups for information.You need to be quite a resilient person to make it work, and you need to know yourself and your true needs.

One thing you have to get used to in Europe is that you have to live around and accommodate the past. That might mean really sub-standard housing in Paris, because you have to walk up five flights of stairs, or the very limited Metro system in Rome because every time they start digging they uncover important Roman ruins, or carrying all your groceries in a trundler across broken cobblestone pavements. It means the bureaucracy is much, much more complicated than in the New World countries; in France, you are actually given a day off work to do your admin tasks. It means the inhabitants have been doing things their way for a thousand years, and are not inclined to try anything new. I live in Italy part of the year and life as a gay is complicated. I would say the majority are closeted or semi-closeted, try to appear straight, are not even out to their families ("It's a sin"), etc. But of course, there are many, many advantages. You will definitely not get shot. Swings and roundabouts...'What you lose on the swings, you gain on the roundabouts..'

[quote]I want to retire in Spain, but I cannot even imagine eating that late. Can I eat three meals a day like a reg'lar American? I'm doing the 16-8 fast and I eat my three meals at 10AM, 2PM, and 6PM.

No. Spain is not "reg'lar America." Breakfast (coffee and toast) is served from about 7AM to 12PM and workers often take it in two installments. Lunch is the traditional big meal, around 2PM to 3.30 when workers have off for 3 or 4 hours, served at home or in restaurants as a menu del día (a fixed price meal of a couple small plates, a choice from 2 or 3 main dishes, a soup, a dessert, and a beverage.) Restaurants close and open again at 8.30pm or 9 (tourists will be there at 8.30 sharp); Spaniards starting from 9, 10, 11 a dinner of tapas or a mix of tapas and larger courses, followed by a dessert and)or coffee . If you eat with friends or family it's a meal of hours and you might see children wandering home with their parents at 1AM.

You can eat when you want -- at home. You can find American breakfasts easily in cities But no one will care about your fasting schedule or what Americans do or why.

Spaniards eat when they eat. Why resist out of stubbornness? Will you keep your watch set to American time?

European identity is all smoke and mirrors.

Good comment, R254. Very true.

It's frustrating.. but also part of the charm.

Can't have it all; a wisdom that may be a bit foreign to some American ears..

I moved to Italy (Rome) and can attest to everything r253/r254 has said. Very well put. And don't expect to be welcomed and easily make friends with locals. They will always see you as "lo straniero" (the foreigner). For six months, the only friend I made was the guy who cuts my hair. Yes, i would always say "good morning" and stop for brief chat about the weather with the neighbors, but they were never really friends.

As determined as I was not to fall in into the expat bubble, I found myself making doing just that and befriending other expats at my language school.

Yes, that is something I forgot to mention - Europeans, southern ones anyway, remain close to their family and keep their childhood friends for life. So..they aren't looking for new ones. Regarding the attachment to family, it's a matter of survival, because in Italy anyway, the government provides nothing except schooling and medical care. The rest is on the families, and that is why you frequently see three generations living together in spacious apartments. They put the majority of their wealth into housing, and know that if they ship nonna off to a rest home, the family home will be sold to pay for it, and there goes the inheritance...

Having said all that, eventually you do make wonderful friends.

[quote]...Europeans, southern ones anyway, remain close to their family and keep their childhood friends for life. So..they aren't looking for new ones.

[quote]Having said all that, eventually you do make wonderful friends.

True, though I will say they are very friendly and not at averse to making new friends, but one thing is key. The most helpful thing you can have is an intermediary, an introduction. If you are introduced as someone's good friend or partner, there's an instant acceptance and from that point you would have to work hard to have that door closed to you, even a little. It's not at all an American way of doing things, but if you get a good introduction you get an instant warm welcome: you're good enough for their good friend or family member and nothing more need be said, no proof is required, and the confidence is immediate, not "earned."

[quote] and some are even killed

What??

Yes, in Italy it's all about the networks. Once you're in the network, which can be a network of good neighbours, friends, family, or colleagues, you're like family; they share all resources and connect you with whatever you need. It's not that hard to get into one. The downside is that if you're not part of the network, you're fair game to get ripped off. Anything goes.

R253 R254 R259

That was my great luck moving to Italy and getting in with a wealthy prominent family. All doors opened.

My advice to expats: if you want to meet Italians and build friendships, participate in activities. Hiking, running. Take classes at a gym. Join a volunteer group.

Go to your local coffee bar and become a regular. That sort of thing. You have to be out there and a part of your neighborhood.

Think about how difficult it is to make friends in the US as an adult in a new city. So of course it's going to be even more difficult in a whole new country.

AND you can only make close deep friendships when you can speak Italian fluently. The language is easy enough to learn the basics quickly, but speaking the language fluently takes YEARS. You'll know you're there when you can tell jokes, understand the humor. And with Italian you must learn to read between the lines. Understand what's NOT being said. You have to understand the culture, the customs, the references, what is being implied. And it takes years.

Also: I see with so many expats, they have personalities that Italians just aren't into. Italians like to keep things very light. Very easy.

Don't know why there is so much gloom and doom here. I'd venture to say most of the people moving to Europe are not your Average JoeBobb Schmucker & wifey Karen dumbfuck Americans. Most in that demographic are too stupid to figure out their savings account, much less the residency requirements of any other country.

I'm a member of a several expat groups... the smart, educated/informed (and yes, monied - but not necessarily "rich") ones are going to Europe.

I feel for Latin America. That's where the true idiots are moving. Many are clearly Trumpers as well (ironic).

Unlike in the European groups where members share thoughtful ideas and questions on city and country specific living concerns that they've clearly researched to some degree, the Latin American groups almost have JoeBobb or Karen asking "Where in Mexico can I live on a budget of $1,500 US a month... surely I can find a nice beach town where English is spoken on that budget?" or "What kind of work can I do in Costa Rica, but I don't speak English?" or "I've heard Mexico is too expensive now because of all the Americans coming in, is it true Ecuador/Panama are CHEAPER?" Don't get me started on their idiotic questions about how to apply for a visa/residency in a language they don't understand and many have no intention of learning.

As for the social connections argument, Americans are the least socially connected out there. Interaction is limited to social media and texts these days. You can do that from anywhere in the world.

I think the European-bound are going to be just fine, if not happier.

Oh, and one other thing: if you want to live in Italy and make friends get your clothing and grooming and hygiene together. Don't even think of leaving the house otherwise.

One thing that is a bit of a shock is the fiery Italian character. They can blow up into a temper very quickly, but then they forget about it very quickly and to them it's as if it never happened. Sadly, I'm the opposite. I have never in my life shouted at a friend, but I have ghosted plenty and never looked back. Once someone has shouted at me, I find it hard to relax and trust them again.

^ Where did you find that in Italy. Someone shouting at you. And over what exactly?

Actually, I have found that the Italians, at least where I lived many years in Tuscany, keeping one's cool is the norm.

Really, R267?

R268 Those are Americans. They are not Italians.

Just one generation removed, R269.

Italy is a different planet.

It's nice to vacation there, but the never-ending chaos, the lack of discipline, the mayhem.. *shudders*

^ Sounds like the US these days, but with less fat people.

Tried "staycationing" instead of traveling abroad this summer to avoid the airline disruptions and man it has been sad. Touring anything you can drive to (national parks or the boardwalk) all you see are hordes of fatties who can barely walk the are so fat. Surly attitudes as well. Eating overpriced, overprocessed junk food - often while they are trying to walk and huffing after 10 steps.

We're headed for Europe in September.

Now, Now, Dutchie, Ortisei isn't that bad. ;)

OMG, it's the "gramps" "fag" troll with a new account. FF.

I was amused by journalists covering the Eurovision Song Contest in Turin bitching about how hopelessly disorganized the Italians were.

R270 Italian Americans have nothing in common with modern day Italy.

[quote] but the never-ending chaos, the lack of discipline, the mayhem..

Please tell us where you encountered chaos and mayhem in Italy.

LOL. Mayhem.

Homicide rate by country 2018:

USA 4.96

Italy: 0.57 (the 2nd lowest in all of Europe)

Italian bath towels aren’t really fluffy. They’re usually made of a heavy woven cotton. It’s like drying yourself with a bed sheet.

R275 It also turned out to be the highest rated Eurovision Song Contest in many years.

R277 Italian bath towels are thick woven cotton or thin pique cotton. They are designed to exfoliates the skin and to dry quickly, rather than holding moisture and getting smelly. They are seen as more hygenic than terry.

r272 europe is quite obese, too.

Love those Italian bath towels. Can’t stand these plush pseudo-silk American towels.

The thin waffle towels are because you have to dry everything indoors on drying racks apart from the sunny months. There are few clothes driers.

R282 No one throws a terry towel into the dryer right after using it. Most just leave it there in their steamy bathroom and wash and dry it after a few uses,

Do other European countries use non terry towels?

[quote]It's nice to vacation there, but the never-ending chaos, the lack of discipline, the mayhem.. *shudders*

But it's part of the charm, Dutchie. And even at that, the so-called "mayhem" is exaggerated. Italian cities like Rome, Milan, Florence and Turin function more or less like Northern European ones. It's when you get to the South in cities like Naples and Palermo that the shock hits you. And not a knock on countries like the Netherlands, Germany or Nordic countries, but the strict rules, boring regiments and social detachment is what makes me prefer Southern Europe.

R278, there is no correlation between the Eurovision ratings and the apparent incompetence of the Italian hosts whatsoever.

R263 Some details on the situation this year.

^ sorry, meant for R286

[quote]there is no correlation between the Eurovision ratings and the apparent incompetence of the Italian hosts whatsoever.

Can you highlight examples of this "incompetence" please? I'm not challenging or denying your statement, rather I'd like to see how it differs to events held in Northern Europe. And by extension, would the chaos with Liverpool fans at the Champions League final in Paris be seen as an example of Southern European incompetence? Is Paris considered Southern Europe? I'm genuinely curious.

[quote]I live in Italy part of the year and life as a gay is complicated. I would say the majority are closeted or semi-closeted, try to appear straight, are not even out to their families ("It's a sin"), etc.

This is true about Italy. Back in the day, I used to live near a major university in an area known for its student life, bars, clubs, housing etc. After a while, of course you start noticing some of the hot guys in the neighborhood who, like college students all over the world, would party late in the night and spend most of their time with their girlfriends. You'd almost never see them alone, always with their girlfriends often making out in the park and streets or just having a coffee together. So imagine my shock the handful of times when I opened Grindr (this was back before people could disable their locations) and found a few of these horny college guys there. And it's not just them, married family men are not unusual on Italian gay dating apps.

^ What I meant to say, you'll find a lot of guys who have sex with men but will never identify as gay and will continue living a straight life.

Sadly, R285, Rome does not function like the north. There is uncollected rubbish everywhere, rental bikes and scooters in great numbers are left on the sidewalks, there is graffiti everywhere in the centre, the cobblestones are broken, and you see rats.

Yes, R261, expats do get killed. In France, a few years back, a British woman was killed by a local in her village, in Thailand, a number of tourists and expats are killed every single year, in Florence and Rome, Moroccan gangs set upon tourists and attack and rob them all the time, and sometimes they get killed, eg an American was attacked and thrown into the Tiber some years back. You need to have your wits about you and do not do stupid things like stagger out of a bar alone at midnight or walk around holding your new Iphone when anyone can grab it.

R1 LOL, ok.

r293 The number one risk of getting murdered as an expat is backpacking through Australia. Happens every year to especially Brits, yet they still keep going.

R292 Rome's garbage problem can be directly attributed to local politics and the closure almost 10 years ago of Rome's main landfill for for not meeting EU standards. Now garbage has to be exported out of the country to places like Austria. In Naples and Sicily, it's the mafia's involvement in garbage collection that's causing the problem.

Doesn't help that the mafia is controlling the garbage business in Italy. Or did I watch too many episodes of the Sopranos?

Not all of us have European spouses or relatives to qualify for doing so.

[quote]I should be able to answer this, but I am older and married: Can someone who actually lives in Europe talk about being Gay in day-to-day life? I live in a small community and I am pretty dull. I don't have recent experience with being Gay at work or openly gay in a mixed social setting. Pretty much, I have reached the point of critical mass where anyone one who is homophobic keeps it to himself as he knows the larger community would not approve. (A benefit of German group-think).

R93: In Spain where circles or networks of friends and family are central, I think you would be hard pressed to find one such without a mix of gays and straights. There's no surprise or explanation or careful treading necessary when everyone has a cousin, a good friend, your best friend's brother, a best friend that you had from early childhood who turned out to be gay, everybody knows someone gay and well. It's not odd for straight and gay men to be friends or become friends from having met each other through their extended circles. These things come less as a surprise than as a natural expectation. If you're introduced to six or eight new people sitting at a table in a cafe somewhere, it's likely it's a mixed straight and gay group. This influence of this familiarity extends most everywhere and there is a sensibility toward basic fairness, that rights extended one person should be extended to all. Women always seem on a more comfortable, more equal level, with none of the demure asking to delicately venture an opinion, they just do, and it's welcomed and given the same reception as it would from a man in the same group. It's an easier, more natural dynamic. And for gays and lesbians, too. The mix of gay and straight is an easy one compared to the U.S. where it never seems far from a subject of discussion or explanation of the token gay or straight and isn't that funny?!

With gay rights and gay marriage and protections of gays and lesbians having been in place and very popularly for some time, gays and lesbians are both very visible and not singled out as oddities but as part of families and communities and workplaces and everyday life. Not to say there is zero prejudice or backward thinking or that homophobia doesn't exist, but there's little reason for anyone to be closeted or to lead a secret life or to be guarded about who they are, and there is no reason that gays and lesbians have apart from what they are naturally part of.

Bump

I'd take a house for a year but not permanently.

I count ex-pats from other countries among my friends, I enjoy them very much. Makes me feel good they chose my neck of the woods.

[quote]So the question is, why aren't more DLers like these Americans relocating to Europe

If you can't come up with the most obvious answer to this question, incredibly obvious as it is, you shouldn't be posting here or anywhere on social media.

Well, what's the answer then, R302? I'm planning on getting a retirement visa to Spain or Portugal if the Congress goes Republican in November, so I too am curious.

The answer is that it's usually quite difficult to establish permanent residence in another country, though I would guess that retirement visas are a lot easier to obtain than working visas or green cards.

[quote]The answer is that it's usually quite difficult to establish permanent residence in another country

Well of course it is. Aside from some hint of overestimating the speed of visa and citizenship applications, I've seen very little evidence in thsi thread or others of underestimating the difficulty of the process. In fact itś more often the opposite, expressing the opinion that it's a pointless pursuit given the expense and difficulty -- both factors overestimated.

To a couple posters who said they plan to apply for Irish citizenship through ancestry at some later point, I've given a gentle encouragment to do it now -- that process could take a couple of years before Brexit spurred a large and continued incfrease in applications. Better to do it now and have it than to wait until the applicant is in a hurry and the embassy review process is in no hurry at all.

If you have any close relatives who lost citizenship in Germany or Austria due to persecution by the Nazis, you are eligible for citizenship. It can be grandparents or great grandparents. Your relatives could have been Roma, Jews, Communists, disabled, etc.

European exchange rates can kill a dream too. $1,000,000US is worth ~815,000GBP or ~974,000EU. The Euro loss isn't massive, but nothing to sniff at, either.

I didn't read this entire thread, so don't know if anyone have brought up Portugal's Golden Visa.

If you buy something for at least $500K (house or hotel condo), you get a temporary visa. If you spend at least 14 days in the country over the subsequent 5 years, then you qualify for a permanent visa. That allows you to access (and even work) in anywhere in the rest of the EU

I don't underestimate the difficulty of getting an EU retirement visa, but I plan to move -- I'm still trying to make my decision about where. But I'm tellin' ya, come hell or high water, I'll be out of this place long before I live to see a dictatorship of Republicans controlling this nation.

I used to tell myself that I hoped that I'd have seen the writing on the wall and left Germany, etc. before Hitler came to power. Ladies and gentlemen, if you ignore a Republican majority outcome of the next election (Nov. '22), you'll deserve whatever you get.

You go gurl/r309!

[quote] Aside from some hint of overestimating the speed of visa and citizenship applications, I've seen very little evidence in this thread or others of underestimating the difficulty of the process.

Fine. I was only responding specifically to the OP's silly question, "Why aren't more DLers like these Americans relocating to Europe?"

A retirement visa is your golden ticket, if you can afford it. That visa is basically saying: I can pay for myself and will not burden your public healthcare system.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Vienna’s #1? It sounds like quite a boring city.

R314, and Vienna, which I like but may suffer a surfeit of calm, blows away most of the contenders in excitement factor: Calgary, Frankfurt, Geneva, Zurich, Toronto, Vancouver...

Go with something beautiful at least ..

Vienna is beautiful, I’d love to live there.

Gay friendly too

These are officially the 10 best places to live in the world

R318: Officially according to Condé Nast Traveller.

Other official lists include ArchDaily, Far and Wide, Lonely Planet, the dozens derived from the Economist Intelligence Unit’s Global Liveability Index, BestCities.org, Afar, TimeOut, CNN Travel, Travel & Leisure, Forbe's, Nomad, Merfer Mobility Exchange, Fortune....

So many people I know say that Copenhagen is one of their favorite cities. I've never visited.

Copenhagen is nice, especially if you like open face sandwiches.

I haven't seen a mass exodus.

I'm of mixed mind about Copenhagen, R320. Some places are exciting to visit but you wouldn't want to live there; Copenhagen, though, is one of those places are a just a bit boring to visit but you can see that they would be great places to live.

By a bit boring I don't mean there is nothing to see or do or enjoy as a visitor, but that there are other cities with enough similarities of setting and appearance and the feel of the place that they win out for being less good at hiding their light under a bushel. Copenhagen is a relaxed place to discover one neighborhood at a time more than a place in which to check off all the highlights in a hurry on to the next. Copenhagen grows on you in many small ways and you see how well it seems to function as a city and discover it's its pleasures in small ways a little at a time. Much to its credit, it doesn't feel like a city where tourists are afforded a huge place, and also to its credit you see small things that start to mount up and you realize that everyday life and street life is considered, and from a bottom up sort of way based on practical experience that works.

I like Copenhagen, but it's a different city than most in that it defies the usual tourist agenda and lists of must-sees and its pleasures are smaller individually but add up very well.

They don't seem to understand that some of us are on a very fixed income...

[quote]They don't seem to understand that some of us are on a very fixed income...

I think you meant small income. Fixed income only refers to the invariability of an investment return or other sorts of income, whether $150 a month or $15,000 a month.

In any case, changing countries isn't for everybody and there are costs associated. No one underestimates the €690,000 cost of Maltese a citizenship or the €1,000,000 to place in an approved investment fund for a Golden Visa and permanent residency in Ireland. A number of other viable options to secure renewable visas and in time citizenship have been discussed; students and others without even modest sums of money have been using these for years and the costs are in the hundreds or perhaps a couple thousand dollars.

If someone posts a Tasteful Friends beach house with a $13M price tag, some will complain that they can't afford it. Of course they fucking can't. How many people can afford a $13M beach house? It's not that the poster who started the thread doesn't "seem to understand that some of us are on a very fixed income;" his intent was never to suggest that the house was a perfect choice for all DL readers and well within their budgets.

Very few people will ever decide to relocate to another country: work, friends, family, health, habit, languages, and a hundred other types of reasons -- and money. Yet there are Americans by birth who now live in Europe legally and happily who came with probably less of an income stream than your "very fixed income."

I don't read DL threads about Demi Lovato because I neither know nor care who she is. But I don't complain that the thread isn't specific to my interests or situation. I don't write letters of complaint when financial firms send me offers to invest in things beyond my reach; and don't stop in a shop to harangue the clerks insisting that that they don't understand that a $62,000 sofa is beyond what I should sensibly spend on a sofa. They understand.

Been to Copenhagen. I agree that it seems very livable---Major pedestrian shopping area; Tivoli Gardens; palace complete with Changing of the Guard; Old Port; central train station for proximity to the rest of W. Europe.

But is it that much cheaper than the US? Are people comparing the apples of American Suburban single homes with the oranges of Danish Urban apartments?

R291, You mean like Hollywood?

No, R325, I said a fixed income and I meant a fixed income. I get a small fixed amount retirement pension and my Social Security, which may go up with COLA, but is still pretty damned fixed if you have to live on it.

But I bet you think you know everything and everyone should hang on your every word. So please go on.

[quote]But is [Copenhagen] that much cheaper than the US? Are people comparing the apples of American Suburban single homes with the oranges of Danish Urban apartments?

Copenhagen seemed quite expensive to me, but that was as a tourist, and restaurant costs stood out in my mind; these are indexed just shy of those for NYC whereas overall the Cost-of-Living Index is 78 (against NYC at a benchmark 100). That number is just 2 points higher than Philadelphia or L.A. and fractionally shy of London. The Rent Index in Copenhagen is 42 and the Rent+COL Index is 62 (compared again to NYC benchmarks of 100 in each case.)

Where I live in Southern Europe the COL index is a little under 1/2 of that of NYC; its Rent Index of about 1/6 that in NYC; and a Rent+COL Index of a little under 1/3 of NYC. Location within Europe can make a huge difference, and of course comparing the city costs of where one lived in the U.S. versus Europe. Housing costs vary considerably; some markets are have very stable prices that are a long time in seeing any real growth and people tend to buy homes intending to stay in them for many years, seeing them as a measure of security rather than an investment. In other cities real estate is its own powerful engine and people have made large sums just by trading houses. Outside of Dublin, or Berlin, or Southern England and a few markets that have grown similarly to that in the U.S., a lot of Europe has opportunities for buying appealing houses cheaply outside the large city centers (the €1 houses of Italian villages and other programs, and the proliferation of Cheap Houses in Tuscany/Portugal/France/etc. services that seduce American buyers with beautiful old village houses for modest sums or very little money at all.)

Some of the people in OP's article have the advantage of being digital nomads or remote works, drawing an American salary that stands out by comparison to those in very many countries and being able to live in a beautiful 17th century village house in French for less than the cost of nothing special 1980s garden apartment somewhere in the exurbs of the U.S. It all depends on where the American expats will live and how - to what standard and what priorities. I think it can work for people who are focused on those last two points who chose a place where general cost-of-living is low. To move to Copenhagen, though, and then attempt to recreate every familiar American suburban comfort in a reasonably expensive city could soon put them ahead of what they were paying in Philadelphia or wherever.

Rule of thumb: The most desirable places in Europe, Copenhagen and Vienna included, will NOT be cheap.

Look for secondary or even tertiary cities, instead.

Haarlem seems more upscale in general than Amsterdam, Dutchie, right? So more expensive?

R331 Haarlem is alright, beautiful old city. But not the capital, so definitely not more expensive.

Heemstede, south of Haarlem, is truly upscale in a wealthy suburban sense.

An interesting look at the success of Portugal's golden visa program and the disfavor by the EU on member countries selling residency and citizenship.

Told in the context of China's much declined participation but with lots of broader context.

Just a heads up for American expats who think they won't be doubly taxed in Europe.... the exclusion of over $100,00 per annum is only for earned income. Passive income - dividends, interest payments, rental income - is fully taxed both in the US and as world income in the new country of residence. Retirees by definition do not have earned income.

You will have to file US taxes as long as you retain American citizenship, and for 10 years after you renounce, if you do.

If you choose to renounce, if you have more than $2,000,.000 worth of assets, you will have to pay an exit tax of 15% capital gains tax on your holdings as if they were sold at current market value.

Additionally, Americans may find it impossible to open a European bank account, due to FATCA requirements making them undesirable clients. However, you can use Wise or Revolut for basic transactions.

R334 Great insights. Thoughts on whether foreign tax offsets minimize an expat's dual tax liability in a significant way?

[quote] You will have to file US taxes as long as you retain American citizenship, and for 10 years after you renounce, if you do.

There's no requirement to file a US tax return for 10 years after you renounce. You file your final return the year you renounce.

[quote] If you choose to renounce, if you have more than $2,000,.000 worth of assets, you will have to pay an exit tax of 15% capital gains tax on your holdings as if they were sold at current market value.

If you're at the limit where that tax applies to you, your capital gains rate would be 20% plus the 3.8% net investment income tax. But even then, it only applies It the deemed gain on those assets exceeds $744,000.

Numbeo is good but also check out expatistan.com for quality-of-life and cost-of-living comparisons.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Will moving to Europe be a panacea... or a case of "Why did I do this?"

What I loved about living in Italy in a small Tuscan city:

Being able to walk everywhere and not needing a car. Most of the streets in the center of my town are closed to traffic and the effect is wonderful.

Zero street crime. Never having to look over my shoulder. Even late at night.

Shopping at the daily farmers market. The cheese store for fresh local cheese. The fish monger. My great butcher.

The high quality of produce.

2 hospital stays and operations without having to pay a cent.

The public transportation. The trains. Being able to go to Milan, Rome or Venice for the day.

Inexpensive but thoroughly lovely vacations on the Adriatic.

Classy shopping streets even in my small city. Shoes stores. Clothing stores. Not needing to buy everything on the internet.

Being constantly surrounded by beauty and elegance and art.

Well dressed, well groomed, well behaved people as the norm. Gentility.

The coffee bars. The trattorie. Gelaterie. Excellent but with moderate prices.

I could go on and on...

No mention of hot Italian dick and ass? This isn’t Travelounge, R339.

Was it Lucca, R339?

R331- Better Haarlem than Harlem.

R10. Just get a foreign language study visa. Some schools are like $3,000 a year, or more. And that gives a years time to figure out the rest of what you are going to do.

r341, never move to a tourist trap, which Lucca, especially inside the walls, most definitely is. Venice may be beautiful but is it livable? As a matter of fact, true Venetians hate foreign gentrifiers with a passion.

Lucca is not a tourist trap.

It does have a high rate of tourism, but it has maintained it's charm and high quality of life.

^ its

Adding to r334 and r336 (all good points about tax issues)... Tax treaties vary between the US and other countries, so your situation will vary depending upon the country.

Also, renouncing US citizenship isn't a quick process. I shouldn't have to say this, but you need to be a citizen of another country to renounce. You can't just renounce and become a "Man without a country."

Where was it then, R339?

Condé Nast's 'top 10 livable cities' list includes pretty much only cities in the top 10 cost of living cities on their respective continents. Not terribly helpful IMO.

As was well noted above, be very careful to understand your potential tax liabilities, particularly if you plan to work while retaining American income. Talk to a local lawyer specialising in in expat matters -- every capital city has many.

I thought there was a 10 year filing obligation after renunciation, but clearly that is not true. Was it true in the past?

R334

Since someone renouncing US citizenship is relinquishing the benefits of same, why does the US make it so costly and difficult? It's as if you have to buy your way out of prison.

On the other side, both Rome and Milan were right at the bottom of desirable cities for expats, due to the low salaries and cost of living.

R350. Boris Johnson is not an easy man to find sympathy for, yet the story about his renouncing of U.S. citizenship does show the reach of the U.S. into the pocket of someone born in the U.S. who lived there until age five and then fifty+ years in the country of his parents. Johnson aside, his story does illustrate an advantage of renunciation.

If you have relatively modest resources, it's easy enough for many to let their American citizenship ride when moving to another country without causing much more pain than an annual tax filing showing that you live in another country and that your income, covered under reciprocal tax treaties, is under a certain amount. Yet it could become a problem if you enjoyed any capital gains on income abroad from such things as sale of a principal residence.

[quote]Condé Nast's 'top 10 livable cities' list includes pretty much only cities in the top 10 cost of living cities on their respective continents. Not terribly helpful IMO.

Condé Nast, like many travel publishers, has always been a little list happy, and no less so in recent years when lists are the stuff of prime clickbait. Some of their lists have some thought behind them and some are clearly slapped together from bits of other articles. They do produce lists of cheaper favorite cities in Europe, underrated cities in Europe (mostly synonymous with cheaper), Those that report traveller/readership polling always skew expensive.

Search "cheapest" "cities" "to live" (or "relocate" or "expat" or "digital nomad" or "to retire"; or "expensive for expats" for example) and there are no shortage of results, many geared to finding the dirt cheapest above all, and many more cribbing from other published lists.

From a quick glance I found this list to15 European countries (highlighting cities) that is thoughtful and well considered (and accurate for the places I know well reasonably well). She's a blogger from Ukraine who lived in the U.S. for a decade and she gives a better picture than most of the lists of cheapest/best. It's a better starting point than most.

Synopsis of the article R353 posted:

Eastern-Europe, remote parts in Spain, and.. Turkey.

Cute for when you’re a white straight couple.

R53: Albania has one of the least functional public health systems in the northern hemisphere and is incredibly corrupt. Hungary is run by a fascist. She avoids certain easily documented truths.

All of Europe is FUCKED with their soaring energy prices and a shortfall of Natural Gas. If Americans like the idea of living in the cold and dark this winter then relocating to Europe is a good strategic move.

Europe will survive just fine. I'd be more concerned with people living in Phoenix.

[Quote]If Americans like the idea of living in the cold and dark this winter then relocating to Europe is a good strategic move.

So far no one has frozen to death in Europe. Can you say the same about Texas and their elusive power grid? One tiny heat wave and people can't use their AC and dish washer at the same time. I would be more concerned about the heat and drought in the southwest.

R358- You better read this

Are there any European magazines that list "Top 10 Places to Live in the US"? I would love to see how our cities are seen from their POV.

Not that I have ever seen, R360.

I think daydreaming/speculation of what it would be like to relocate permanently or to retire in another country that seems somehow better for one's situation is more a peculiarly U.S. and a UK thing. I know relatively young or working age Italians, Spaniards, French, Portuguese who wonder what it would be like to move to the U.S. and work for a few years, but none who see it as more than a temporary experiment, and none of any age who envision it as a place to retire. It's a mixture of the attractive higher salaries and the opportunity of the experience of living in another place with different geography, language, music, and customs. Contrary to American belief that everyone else wants to become American or to destroy them, the U.S. enjoys a lot of goodwill; there is curiosity about the things there that, from a distant perspective make no sense, particularly the rapidity and force of political change in these last years.

In the recent past there were polls showing that some 6M Brits wanted to retire abroad: Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Portugal were and some lesser interest in Florida and warm spots in the U.S. as mentioned above the popular destinations. But the difference between considering the possibility and acting upon it is inevitably going to be large: 6M vs 4.7M is not huge considering all involved in making it happen.

In the 10 years ending in 2019, the German Federal Pension Fund added 50,000 pensioners who receive payments outside Germany, and this was seen as a large rise (top destinations included: Austria, Switzerland, Spain, USA, and Australia.) Total numbers for emigration (cumulative number of former residents living internationally): UK 4.7M (7% total pop); Germany 3.8M (4.5%); U.S. 2.9M (0.87%; and France 2.3M) (3%) The U.S. and the U.K., the countries with respectively the least and most emigration of that group spawn the greatest amount of propaganda about moving abroad or finding 'A Place in the Sun.' [see chart at link which can be flipped to show Immigration/Emigration]

I think, too, that Americans and Brits favor those list headlines of '10 Places You Can Move Right Now and Live Like a Prince,' or '10 Perfect Places To Retire Where There's Sun the Year Round'.' I don't see the propensity for constant lists in non-English language European travel publications which tend more to focus on one place or a region of a country.

Never come across an article along those lines, R360.

Places to visit, must-see attractions — sure. But to live? Nah.

Interesting take, R361

R339 I still don't understand why Italians have no disposable income though. How can they vacation or purchase appliances or clothes if they only have enough for rent and food?

R364, see "The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone" for how Italian men survive.

Why would any European want to live here? They would pay much more for health care and higher education. Public transportation is inadequate.

America is a fabulous place to live if your rich. You can pretty much do as you please.

And the rich can't in Europe?

R18 in Italy, almost everyone speaks English. You should be willing to learn a country's language though if you ever want to be part of the community, means truly live there. How would you feel about someone who moved to the US and refused to learn English on at least a basic conversational level? Taking some language courses will be time very well invested. It's more fun if you understand what's going on, get the in-jokes etc. It also alters your perception of your fellow humans if you don't have to constantly assume they are talking something bad behind your back because you don't understand them. You will be able to have meaningful exchanges with people and not just exchange some platitudes.

R369

[quote] in Italy, almost everyone speaks English

absolute bullshit. You act as if Italy is like a northern European country (Scandinavia, BeNeLux) where 95% of the population speaks English.

Apart from my own experiences, one as recently as last June in northern Italy and my travels to Rome, Napels, Milan, Catania and smaller towns, here is an article referring to a study that confirms my opinion.

[quote] Italy's English proficiency is second to last in the European Union, going by how its nationals scored in language tests, with only Spaniards performing worse.

The Netherlands takes the first spot in English proficiency, with Italy at 30. Get out with your "almost everyone speaks English".

Source: See link

Re: R369 & R370, a graphic...

Map showing "Percentage of Population Able To Hold a Conversation in English (self-reported)" shows Italy not in 2nd to last place but tied for 8th from last place. In any case, far from "almost everyone speaks English."

Source: JakobMarian maps

Agree that older people especially do not generally speak English in Italy. Younger people do tend to speak it, but not nearly as proficiently as younger people in northern Europe.

[Quote][R18] in Italy, almost everyone speaks English.

Haha, have you actually ever visited Italy? I've traveled there over six weeks in 2018 and visited every part of the country and the only two people I've met during that time and had a real conversation with were Niek from the Netherlands and Laurent from France. 95 percent of my hosts did not even speak a few words English and we mostly communicated via Google translate. Especially in the south most people at restaurants and cafés or hotels didn't even understand basic sentences like "I would like to order..." or "Can I pay" (don't even try check or tab or grammatically correct sentences).

If you only visit tourist traps like Capri, Venice or Florence and only stay and eat at upscale hotels and restaurants, you should be fine though.

Very inaccurate infographic! Two out of five people in France certainly do not speak English beyond hello and goodbye. And very few people in Italy do, unless they are connected with the tourism industry.

However, in Portugal, almost everyone under 40 has had a lot of Eng;ish in school and they do speak it pretty well.

That map doesn't even have England at 100%.

I was born in Italy to a US military family. When we moved to the US the lack of culture almost killed me. I am back in Europe and much happier.

R375 Perhaps you weren't aware that the most popular baby name in the UK for the past decade is "Mohammed". Many Muslim women immigrants do not speak English and are semi-literate or illiterate in their native languages as they are not educated in their home countries.

R370 I should clarify what I meant by "everyone speaks English." Italians all speak enough English that I absolutely could go shopping and solve everyday problems and could get my things done when I didn't yet speak Italian, in Milan, in Florence, in Rome, Verona and in Sicily. If you are looking for a person to converse in English about late 18th-century literature in an average grocery store, you might be in a pinch, this is correct.

I'm curious about our prolific poster Dutchie. I can think of only one time he's made an error in English, and his English is indistinguishable from an educated native speaker.

I lived decades in Italy.

Don't expect anyone to speak your language

I'm back in the US and I don't expect anyone to speak Italian.

Be that as it may: I have known plenty of expats and tourists in Italy. One thing people agree on is that Italians are extremely helpful. Even if they don't speak English well, they'll try their best to help you out.

It's not France.

Tracii Guns, founder member, songwriter and guitarist of the sleazy biker-metal band L.A. Guns, relocated in the last few years to Denmark with his new younger European wife.

When even a Sunset Strip grandpa, dyed-in-the-wool all-American rocker associated with California, wants to flee, there's probably serious issues with the place.

[Quote]Even if they don't speak English well, they'll try their best to help you out. It's not France.

Italians are lovely people. The French are evil. The fucking hostility when you try to speak English.

R379 the reason the Dutch have such a high proficiency in English is because we don't dub foreign movies. Public channels love to show old British soap operas and detectives, whereas commercial broadcasters reserve the evening slots for both American and UK blockbusters.

All with subtitles, no overdub. Compare it to Germany, where everything is dubbed and the proficiency level is still rather low between 60 and 65% (2019).

It also helps we are a trade nation with a native language that doesn't get us too far in international affairs, so learning English is a must.

The Spanish can always say: Ours is a world language, just not in Europe, but an entire continent speaks our lingo. But what excuse do the Italians have? Except for a sliver of Switzerland, nobody else speaks it.

R378 fair enough, those cities see their fair share of foreign influx. Combined with what R380 mentioned about the Italians being very helpful, I'm sure you got around. A few words of your Italian, a bit of pointing, an English word or two from their side — and there's your shopping list.

I pointed that out to an Italian once, that the reason Italians were so far behind northern Europeans in English acquisition was that tv and films are dubbed and not subtitled. His reply - But you would put a whole industry out of business!

That's Italy.

R383 You're absolutely right. Dubbing came at a high price for us Germans. The same argument has been used that R385 is reporting. Now, TV isn't much of a thing for the younger generation anymore, so I think that English proficiency will increase in the future.

R384 ... and we can absolutely agree on that.

The Dutch are great in many ways, and canny too. They can spot an English or an American person at fifty paces, without even hearing them speak or walking up close to them.

The number of people in Antwerp who came up to me, a Brit who looks rather German/Dutch (blond, pale, tall, sturdy), and spoke to me in near-perfect English before I could open my mouth is astounding. Suppose they get far too many annoying drunk British tourists there for weed and brass (which I was not there for, thankyouverymuch!)

R373, Having been to Italy a half-dozen times, from the Dolomites to the Heel, and many points in-between, I completely agree with your language assessment.

But as to your characterization of Capri, Florence, and Venice as "tourist traps," I cannot agree. Are there souvenir shops and rip-off restaurants? Sure! Just like in every other major beauty and/or culturally significant spot in Western Europe!

But the Renaissance treasures of Florence; the "pleasure dome" dream vision of Coleridge that is Venice; and the natural beauty of Capri transcend such pejoratives.

The voice-over actors in Italy have a union that makes sure they are not replaced.

The dubbing of films in Italy came about because 80 years ago many Italians could not read the Italian language.

[quote] But the Renaissance treasures of Florence; the "pleasure dome" dream vision of Coleridge that is Venice; and the natural beauty of Capri transcend such pejoratives.

Mary!

When I was in Paris back in '15 for 2 weeks, I had no problems with the French speaking English, and no rudeness at all. (I knew the basic phrases) . But then, that was 3 weeks after the Brussels bombing and the Bataclan attack. One restaurant owner in the flea market asked me why I was in Paris (wasn't I afraid?), and i looked at him and said, "Because it's Paris". Since then, I've been slowly learning French, with a little dream to own a small house outside of Paris.

And proud of it, r391!

[quote]The Spanish can always say: Ours is a world language, just not in Europe, but an entire continent speaks our lingo. But what excuse do the Italians have? Except for a sliver of Switzerland, nobody else speaks it.

Pride in their own language and culture is much more prevalent in Latin countries (I include France in these) and Southern Europe in general, and I think there's something to be said for that. You won't find, a Greek person for example, thinking their ability to speak English is a matter of pride like the Dutch, Scandinavians and Northern Europeans in general do. There's a reason French, Italian and Greek restaurants are a thing worldwide and Danish, Swedish and Dutch are not. These people hardly even make music in their own languages, all Dutch Swedish, Danish and Norwegian entries in Eurovision have always been in English. This in a festival about cultural pride. And you wonder why the world isn't trying to learn your languages? There's no shortage of Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese language schools.

I was watching the Olympics in Tokyo, and my friend notice that most teams had their countries name in their own language on their sports attire. So you would have Brasil, Polska, Hellas, Italia ... then Germany, instead of Deutschland, for the German team. For whose benefit? Why can't they be proud of their own language?

Germany takes up less space than Deutschland.

The EU, after Brexit, continues to use English as the main language for official business. That, in itself is embarrassing. Ursula von der Leyen has never spoken German to the media. Compare that with her predecessor Jean-Claude Juncker, whose perfectly fluent in English, who made a point of using French for official business and particularly when addressing the public. The French make it so that you have to learn their language if you want to integration into their social fabric. I know people who've lived in Northern European countries for 10 years without bothering to learn the language. That's why French, Spanish, Italian cultures continue to thrive while others get diluted.

I see your point about the contrast between von der Leyen and Juncker, R396, and agree as to which comes off better, but wouldn't it be more embarrassing for the Commission to discontinue use of English in the wake of Brexit? Wouldn't that suggest that English has not reached the level of a language of diplomacy but rather that any use of English by the Commission was made purely as a concession to the U.K.? That would be embarrassing. There are enormous numbers of diplomats and EU bureaucrats whose secondary knowledge of English doesn't owe specifically to the UK and is quite apart from Brexit.

From the Washington Post, 16 May: "How To Find the Right Visa To Move to Europe, From People Who Did It"

Moved to South Wales recently, where even though all the signs and posters and radio announcements are in Welsh as well as English, the natives only speak English. Presumably that’s because over half the population of border towns are comprised of emigrated English people, anyway (it’s like Rio Grande Valley and Hispanics/Native Americqns, in that respect).

Have noticed though that, venturing over the Beacons and continuing any further North than Aberystwyth, local people avoid you if you are an EFL speaker, choose to speak only English or seem to prioritise English. As it should be, really, Wales belongs to the Welsh after all (hmm, well it belongs to Brussels, really, but that’s another story).

[quote] all Dutch Swedish, Danish and Norwegian entries in Eurovision have always been in English

Interesting.

Yikes! English is my first language though you wouldn't know it from the grammatical errors in my post at r394. 😂 You see, my phone is set to Italian, which I'm learning.

r397, It's embarrassing for the commission because they only adopted English when the UK joined. You would think the president would set an example by promoting EU languages especially after that acrimonious split. And what's bad is they can express themselves so much better in their own languages. They're no different to those songs in English at Eurovision where, to a native English speaker, the lyrics sound like they could've been written by a 9-year-old.

New Zealand is a great place if you're elderly. It's a much gentler society than the aggressive one of Australia. But it's incredibly, desperately boring as a cultural place, with an oppressive smugness about itself and a real nanny-mentality in officialdom, which explains the endless lockdowns etc. My Dutch friend says the NZ Tourist Bureau deserves an award for the snowjob they've done. People think all of NZ is just like the tourist photos, whereas the great scenery is actually only in small bits, with hundreds of miles between them. Auckland is an utter nowheresville, Wellington wind swept, Christchurch a weird car city. Even before the earthquake it was fucked up. There's also bucketloads of generational maori poverty which is going to be issue in the years ahead. You like New Zealand of the photos. You want Norway. It has the same scenery and oppressive nanny culture, but at least you're close to somewhere interesting. And the people are better looking.

R402 x100.

Have social-climbing nouveau-riche relatives who in the early 2000s moved to Motueka to get away from the London/Oxbridge rat race. They were snobby clueless Tory pricks to begin with, but at least when they lived in England they had a bit about them. They came over to visit recently after many years, and they have turned into the most lacklustre, culture-free, insular and reactionary people I've ever met. Just no There, there. They seem to have forgotten that a world exists outside their outback island, making 'Little Englanders' seem like bastions of free thought and global awareness.

Still, they left to get physical and emotional space from everyone, as is the purview of the rich, and that's indeed what they got. So good for them, I suppose.

A Dutch friend was withering about Auckland: "A city you visit to realise you didn't need to visit it."

In Christchurch we burst in laughter in the street at exactly the same moment at the sheer absurdity of the John Waters mix of yokels, punks and matrons struck us.

[quote] You like New Zealand of the photos. You want Norway.

But you'll freeze in Norway. At least NZ is warm and sunny.

R402 Norway has its immigration woes as well, no? A noticeable Muslim "working and lower" class population. And it's terribly expensive.

From my brief time there, people weren't as cold as most Scandinavians are made out to be, but that may be a function of my being limited to the tourist traps.

Sat next to two Norwegian girls on my way to the Costa del Sol thereafter, all they could talk about was how boring Norway is, which I've heard can be a concern for not just 20somethings.

R405: Not all of it and there's a temperate rainforest thing going on in some of the most beautiful areas of NZ, which means damp and not necessarily warm.

Not me. God bless the USA

Yes, the same God that says gays will rot in hell. Along with the murderers (women seeking abortion).

GOD BLESS THE USA INDEED

I used to daydream about emigrating; my late husband and I traveled a lot throughout W. Europe.

Now, I look around my local area and see that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a medical facility of some type, from Urgent Care to big hospital campuses. And at 72, I like it.

Scandinavia is clean, organised and efficient, but very boring.

OT but if these drought and unbearable hot summers in the U.K. are to be the norm (and the cost of living stays high or frontier to rise), then sadly I have no choice but to leave. Have always hated hot weather, and don’t do well in it at all. Can’t manage to get through a day without flaking or zoning out, and can’t fucking sleep either. And atm/for the foreseeable, I don’t make anywhere near enough money to buy a house and car fitted with A/C.

As a kid, I used to enjoy July & August in England, back when they weren’t enough to scorch everything and everyone. Fucking climate change. Fucking Torys.

Dunno where I could even go, though. The wet chilly part of Scotland or one of the islands around the U.K. (Anglesey, Skye, Shetland, Orkney, Hebrides) may be my only hope—I’m used to rural places full of inbreds, so it might be ok Lack of skills and money bar me from Scandinavia and New Zealand. Denmark & Sweden appeal, as do the Netherlands, but I don’t think they’re any cooler or cheaper than England & Wales. Do Alaska need or want 30-something people to emigrate there? (and is it safe and hospitable?

R412: Surely it's cheaper to buy a room sized air conditioner or two for your house for £250 each and suffer through, what, 35C for two months than to change countries because of climate change? It seems to have affected your thinking.

R413 in central mainland Britain, the temperature’s been on/off shooting to or above 30C since early May, mate.

And to run aircon tales electricity, which thanks to inflation and utilities costs has suddenly become a luxury for many people struggling financially. Come winter, many people are going to freeze because they can’t afford to pay for heat as well as food & water & medicine.

[quote]And to run aircon tales electricity, which thanks to inflation and utilities costs has suddenly become a luxury for many people struggling financially. Come winter, many people are going to freeze because they can’t afford to pay for heat as well as food & water & medicine.

Yeah, R12/R414, mate. It's the same thing everywhere. Yet you think it's somehow cheaper to relocate to another continent, and to fucking Alaska with the second or third highest cost-of-living in the U.S.?

R406: 20-somethings often think the place where they live is boring

[quote]OT but if these drought and unbearable hot summers in the U.K. are to be the norm (and the cost of living stays high or frontier to rise), then sadly I have no choice but to leave.

The phrase "Go West, young man" related to America's expansion westward needs to be updated to "Go North" to avoid drought and heat due to climate change.

I'm in Connecticut and my electric bill has been the highest I've ever paid but it's a small condo and not nearly has high if I had owned a house. I'm a little annoyed the delivery charge doubled because it's related to usage. It's not like they had to build and extra power line.

R412, Any wilderness areas of the United States are home to weirdos, druggies, criminals, gun nuts, racists, "sovereign citizens," R-W militias, and nutty politicians. And the occasional relatively normal person who loves Nature.

But this series does make Alaska at least seem somewhat interesting:

^ We're not talking Wyoming or Idaho either. Northern California, from the coast to the Sierras, has their share of them as well.

You don't hear about them much though, because Californians would rather avoid these places and the subject.

^ The deserts of Southern CA as well. Ask any of our Palm Queens sisters why they don't venture too far from home.

I didn't read through this whole thread but did anyone else think that was Adrian Grenier from Entourage?

Stop coming, thanks to Biden's proxy war we have no heat or energy.

Not moving anywhere that doesn’t speak English

LMAO at R422

Italy will have heat an energy because the far-right Fratelli d'Italia is projected to win the election and they intend to flout sanctions.

I hope the Fratelli d'Italia win.

Or, they are moving to Mexico or Costa Rica.

r427- I have a friend who was building a house in Costa Rica back about a decade ago. Caucasian guy, fluent in Spanish. He was beaten and left for dead after leaving his house because he was a foreigner.

R428 Costa Rica is safer than than most large US cities.

In reality, most expats and foreigners in South American countries live in fortresses and guarded communities bc it's not safe for them. Huge fences, private security, barbwire and metal-grilled windows are the reality. I remember a South African celebrity giving a tour of his mansion and he basically lived in a luxurious fenced off prison. That's why Russian oligarchs, mobsters, billionaires etc all want to live in Europe. It's safe. You can enjoy your money and lifestyle with minimum security.

[quote]Not moving anywhere that doesn’t speak English

Not moving no goddamn place that don't speak no proper English. How's that, R423?

Yes the USA is guaranteed safer for you in your twilight years.

Do they even have safe nursing homes abroad for when I can't take care of myself? We have safe ones here in the US.

But surely in the Flyover states, none of that would happen. God Bless the USA.

But will your family be able to visit you abroad where it's so dangerous for seniors?

Why would anyone living abroad think they could leave their house? It's not safe to walk around your neighborhood in those places!

I’ll take my chances in the US. I can’t live without In N Out burgers

That's the most American thing I've heard in some considerable time, R437. Carry on and stay right where you are.

Yes, don't forget your appetite, mask, and bulletproof vest!

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

^ And we wonder why "More Americans Are Relocating To Europe"...or at least would like too.

^I lived at Castro Arms in the 80s, it was just an ordinary co-op back then. We were across from the frat houses and would sometimes get drunk and throw eggs at them.

Why would Americans move to Europe when the world is facing the impact of depopulation and deglobalization right now?

The U.S. is one of the few countries that is projected to do well in this scenario.

Europe, China and other parts of the world are going to have a very difficult time.

Peter Zeihan addresses these issues and more in his new book “The End of the World Is Just the Beginning: Mapping the Collapse of Globalization.”

We're transitioning away from globalization back to a pre-1945 world that will be ruled once again by regional powers.

R3, watch the video at R443 first before making any moves.

Much as I think the naive posts about picking up and moving some place are stupid, it's unclear how the US is positioned for the future. We have a housing market that is being distorted by vulture capital and people moving to places that are pretty dystopian now like Phoenix or Orlando and likely to just get worse in the future.

But here’s the reality, R445: The situation is the exact same in most Western European countries! And unlike them, the US doesn’t have to figure out how they’re going to sustain generous social benefits.

I live in a small German village and this morning at the bank, I was looking at some of the available apartments and houses being sold. The cheapest APARTMENT (similar to a condo in the US) was 300.000€….and the cheapest house was almost 600.000€. This isn’t some big city where people have high paying jobs either.

Do banks act as realtors there, R446?

Not exactly, R447. I rent so I can’t say for sure how the process works. However, a lot of banks across Germany will have displays in the window featuring properties available to buy (apartments, houses, and sometimes land). I think customers of the bank who are handling the sales themselves request to have their properties featured.

R382- Are you new?

The French are notoriously CUNTY.

^New to what? French cuntiness? No. Lol.

OT r443, but do you know if he's gay? I've got a very, very good gaydar and I'm sensing something even though he has a ring on his finger.

Or consider Estonia, which offers a sort of Bitcoin version of digital residency.

Article in Spanish, but you know what to do if you want it translated.

[quote] but you know what to do if you want it translated.

Quelle rude!

I love my AC thank you very much

The Euro hits a twenty-year low and is now worth less than a dollar. The prospects for Europe aren't looking good given their demographic challenges with an ageing population. Apparently only France and Sweden have a healthy-enough birthrate to sustain the current model.

Europe is in the grip of an energy crisis. Hold off on moving.

If they can make a decent burger I’ll move

Many places in the world offer decent burgers. Dust off that passport and get out there!

Life is a banquet!

More Europeans Are Relocating To The United States-

unless they want to sit in the COLD and DARK this winter.

People are complaining but everyone I know still had enough money to go on vacation this year. I guess it can't be that bad.

Interesting question 364. Italians can afford to do all of those things for one major underlying reason - the cost of living is much lower here than it is in the United States.

I just came back from a three week trip visiting family in the United States - Ohio, Georgia and Florida. Those have never been on the higher end of the cost of living in the United States. But I was blown away by the price of everything now compared to comparable items here in Italy. My mom and I went out to a middling restaurant in Ohio, and our bill came out to $140 for the both of us. Dinner at a comparable restaurant here in Italy would be about 75 to 80 euros. Items at the grocery store were expensive as fuck. There is inflation everywhere, but in the United States it is beyond out of control. I know my mom began to hate me saying it, but I just couldn't get over how much things cost.

And as far as clothing, I live in Rome, people do not wear expensive clothes here. They shop at Coin, or Zara or H&M, Upim. They don't run out and get the latest phone every year. They don't buy stupid designer stuff or spend their rent money on a new pair of shoes - Sketchers and Nikes all the way here with designer shoes about $200. They don't take expensive vacations. They aren't traveling to Capri or Taormina where you'll find all of the Americans. They are traveling to Ponza or Puglia or Siracusa - all equally beautiful at a 1/3 of the price.

My husband leaves the Conad Grocery store here with three bags full of quality good food for around 35 euros. My mom left with one bag for about $70 in the United States. You guys are really getting played there, unfortunately. And I have never ever been food snob, like ever. But this was the first time I found everything I was eating to be bland as fuck. And the only intense flavours are sugar and salt, or extra spicy (whatever that is). Life isn't a bed or roses here necessarily with everything in the world being foreign, this not being my home. I get home sick, I miss all the things I am used to without having to think about it. I miss my family. But having said all of that, every area of my life here, the quality of it, even the ones dealing with the things I mentioned above about missing, is just better. It is not easy, but I would highly recommend it to anyone thinking about it. You have to be tough and ready, but it's worth it.

Oh, and yeah, EVERY fucking thing is politicized in the US now. Everything. People are addicted to bad news. Yes things are political here. People have heated discussions. But they put that shit down to enjoy their friends and family. There is nothing that will divide Italians from being with each other.

I would push those two ugly cunts right into the sea, fuck the husband, and then drown him before he could start with his “observations” on life.

This is the sentiment right now here in Europe. America is like the older brother who was the captain of the football team who you just adored, wanted to visit in college but who dropped out and is addicted to drugs now. You watch them, not knowing what to do, scared for their future, knowing there is nothing you really can do for him. The only thing you can do is grow up yourself and face the world on your own, solve your own problems, knowing that you can't turn to him for help.

There is no joy in watching the United States deteriorate. There is a lot of love and goodwill for the United States here. But there is a lot of sadness and quietly shaking of heads, wondering what the future holds. Because as goes the United States, so does the world. That is the feeling.

R462 Back in the US after a few decades in Italy in a small city...God how I miss the bread, focaccia, gelato, pork products, the cheese...oh God the cheeses...going to the farmers market and coming back with a bag of fruit and vegetables for 7 euro, going to an every day supermarket like Esselunga but with quality like a Whole Foods. Going out for wine and an appertivo for 6, 7, 8 euro. A nice dinner for 25 euro. No tax. No tip. Ah Italy.

I was planning to spend a couple of days in Florida in October. The prices for rental cars and hotels are currently outrageous. Even the low budget motels cost $150 bucks. You could stay at a Days Inn or Howard Johnson for $30-40 bucks before the pandemic. Paid $20 bucks for a motel in Orlando in 2016.

R79 and make sure you have a good supply of iodine tablets.

R464 still wants to get railed by us.

Not going to leave the US. I can just relocate to another state

Trump and his supporters have ruined the US for a lot of people. I left years ago and have no intention of returning.

Good news is that the guy in the picture can earn money as a stripper. I mean that’s all he’s gonna be able to do after they run out of money.

Now that the fortunes of Biden and the Dems are perking up, is y'all still thinking of relating to Europe?

Hi r462. Fellow new Roman here. I've just recently moved from Trastevere to a more spacious place on the outskirts near Via Appia Antica and I'm kicking myself for not doing it sooner. It's cheaper, quieter, close to two huge parks, trees and greenery and an absolute absence of expats and tourists, so I'll get to practice my Italian more. I've discovered it's a continual trap for expats to want to live in the postcard parts of the cities they move instead of living like true locals, and it ends up costing them much, much more than necessary. No American would even consider living in the not-so-pretty part of town. You don't need a view of the Colosseum or Eiffel Tower. Your street in London or Paris doesn't have to look idyllic like the ones in Ted Lasso or Emily in Paris. Don't let "ugly" graffiti dissuade you from living in an area, you'll get more bang for your buck.

Like you, I'm shocked at the quality of food in the supermarkets here. I could exclusively shop at Carrefour, Conad or Lidl if I wasn't so concerned about supporting the speciality mom & pops. Even the big Eataly in Garbatella only offers high quality, organic produce sourced locally. It's basically no different from the local markets, just with sleeker packaging and higher markup. I'd almost say it's impossible to eat unhealthy here, but they do have McDonalds and Burger Kings and KFCs and they are extremely popular (but I'm happy to report that Starbucks has struggled and has had to open its only outlet in Rome on the outskirts).

I too get homesick and I find making friends here extremely difficult (I currently have none) but I'm also a natural introvert so it doesn't bother me too much.

R468, That's funny. I lived in NYC for 25 years. I think I'll pass. I was afraid of traveling there out of fear of the Monkey Pox outbreak in the gay community. I don't want to participate in a society where you have to lie to get proper medical attention. That reminds me, I literally paid $175 for a full year's worth of public medical insurance. It's an umbrella, sure. But even if I wanted to go to a private doctor it is still much much cheaper than private doctors in the United States. $175 insures the fact that I will never receive a bill from an emergency room visit or from getting my basic medical needs covered. In the United States I would pay hundreds of dollars every month for insurance but still receive ludicrous bills in the mail months later for basic services and live in fear of a real accident bankrupting me.

r473, I agree with you 100%. How long have you been here? I notice a trend where people their first year live somewhat center and then progressively move out once the realize how nice and inexpensive the outlying areas are. I currently live in Esquilino off of Merulana by Piazza Vittorio Emanuele, so I am not dead center but I wouldn't mind moving out to San Giovani, Garbatella. The price for my two bedroom modern apartment with a balcony in a converted convent pales in comparison to what I paid in NYC for a lot less all those years, but I see now it is still expensive for Rome. And the crazy thing is that Rome and Milan are the most expensive Italian cities. You can live beautifully in Florence, Siena, Bologna for a lot less.

The friend thing doesn't surprise me. Luckily I moved here with my best friend, husband, so at least I have that. I go to language school here as well, so I have friends through that as well that are expats. Roman friends are a bit more elusive. I am taking my time finding them. That language barrier, me not speaking fluently makes connecting a bit difficult. Romans can speak broken English, don't mind speaking it with you. But that is not why I am here, to speak English. And who wants to ruin a good Friday night out by conducting an Italian language class with their American friend, constantly explaining what's being said? I have also realized that trying to learn Italian in Rome is like moving to Queens to learn English. Rome has it's own very strong dialect, idioms, ways of saying things that you will only really ever know if you grew up here. It's sometimes even difficult for other Italians. I notice when I go further north, I all of a sudden start understanding people much better.

The prices are sometimes shocking. I went to the store the other day and bought two cases of water - six pack of 1.5L each. Don't ask, Italians seem to be obsessed with buying bottled water even though supposedly what comes out of the tap is perfectly OK. Anyway I bough 12 1.5L bottles of water on sale and a smaller one to carry around and it came out to 3.75 euro. ONE 1L bottle of Desani is almost that Giant Eagle. I had to ask the cashier if he made a mistake. I was like - "no, I have two cases". They were 1.44 each.

The basic grocery stores are the level of Whole Foods. Rummo pasta on sale for .80 a bag. You get used to it after a while. That is why my head was blown off when I went back to the United States by what they are charging for lesser quality stuff. I just wanted to pick up my mother, who is on a fixed income, and pack her in my suitcase and bring her back. Most of her money goes to food and gas. And r473 even fast food is different. I tried McDonalds here and was like "wow the fries taste like potatoes."

I am not saying every body needs to move to Europe at all. It is not easy. It is doable, but you have to want it. I was at a place in my life, living in NYC where I really wanted a change. It just breaks my heart when I see how taken advantage of by corporations Americans are. It's not right and the rest of the world is not like that. It breaks my heart when I see my mom, who is not rich, having to pay $70 for ONE bag of groceries for food she needs to stay healthy. To pay so much money for thyroid medication that would be ten times less here. It's sad that the richest country in the world can't do better by its citizens. That my country really doesn't give a damn about the quality of life of the people living there.

As long as I live close to a Costco, I can just have the $1 hotdog when I get hungry

You're living the American Dream, R477.

That and cup of noodles and I’m set

And I am not down on corporations in and of themselves. It reminds me of the saying that everyone gets wrong. Money isn't the root of all evil. The LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Corporations can be great sources of change or assistance, progressively moving the country forward. But 99% of the time, the bottom line is the motivation for most corporate action. And then the great hypocrisy comes into play to cover their tracks.

I can't tell you how many times I was on hold with this airline or that and every 10 minutes you'd hear, "Nothing is more important to us here at (fill in the blank) than our customers happiness and comfort." We all know that's bullshit. My mom and I ate at Bob Evans in Cleveland. They literally had a sign above that said "Everybody is always glad they decided to share a table with Bob Evans," only to receive the worst service imaginable from a dirty, grease and pancake batter covered, disgruntled waitstaff. No one is happy to be at Bob Evans except kids who want candy for breakfast. People are there for the cheap food and the sausage gravy biscuits. Just don't say it, don't pretend you actually care. If you cared the workers wouldn't be so short-staffed, underpaid and over it.

That is one major welcomed difference here in Italy. You get a sense that, restaurants especially, really care, and take great concern that their customers like the experience they are offering. That is why you get such amazing service when you go back - and they remember you. They actually are appreciative that you chose to come back. I picked up one UPS package at a store, didn't go back for three weeks, and when I did the young guy remembered my last name and now calls me by it all the time now. I was at my corner store in NYC for twelve years everyday and the guy never learned my name. There you don't want them to know it even in case they want something from you.

That is the overall sense in America. There is a great distance between people because you don't know who or what to believe, trust. And you feel like if people are nice then they must want something from you. You feel like you're always on guard from being punked, cheated or mistreated. Society just feels dishonest.

Dollar menu on McD helps too

I can just live in a tent. No mortgage, rent or utilities to worry about

The production and regulation of food in the United States is SO irresponsible I'm beginning to believe it is designed to make people sick. No country like America benefits from an ageing population. They start by poisoning you with their $1 food meals that fuck up your body and hormones only to get you hooked on the antidepressants, blood pressure and diabetes medications by 40. Mind you prescription medicine commercials are not allowed on TV or in ads here in Europe. Every other commercial in the States ends with "Ask Your Doctor..." Then in the States you're dead ten years after your productive years. Didn't the life expectancy just go down for the first time there recently?

Yes there is KFC and McDonanlds here. It's not the same KFC or McDonalds served in the United States. The companies are not legally allowed to serve Italians what they serve Americans. Autism, ADD, peanut allergies, mental health issues are not a big discussion here. There has to be a connection. The cure for a lot of things here is go hang out with your friends in the sun. That's why Italians strike me as a bit adolescent in their thinking. They bicker about the problems the country is facing, but it's like listening to ten year olds complain about doing homework. In the back of my mind I'm thinking, I'll show you a country, a society, that is really falling apart at the seams.

Abortion is an issue again not because people care about life. It's because of the falling numbers of the white population due to rampant drug, meth use and violence. If the US really cared about life a quality food supply and medical care would be a right as it is in most developed countries and not a luxury.

Everyone should leave the US so I can have this country to myself

What would be the first thing you'd do R485, the first place you'd go?

Listen..I live in Italy too, as an expat. And it is great, but not if you have to live as the locals do. The average salary is €1300 a month after taxes. Sales tax is 21%. A lot of the infrastructure is broken or non existant, eg garbage collection in Rome. Getting decent medical care in the south, ie south of Rome, is hit or miss. The govt does nothing for you except education and healthcare; you have to rely on your family. Fancy living with you grandparents til they die? And people live a long time here! If you own a property, you are in for a pile of bureaucracy that you can't even contemplate; I hear it all the time on the Facebook expat groups.

And if you're gay, forget about being out and proud. That does not exist here, even in the big cities. You are not even protected by law from harassment or abuse. However the men are such vain clotheshorses, you can generally blend right in without having to butch it up too much.

[quote]The average salary is €1300 a month after taxes

No. You're wrong. It's a bit higher than that.

[quote]Sales tax is 21%.

It is included in the price of things. Not added on. And generally in the end prices are lower than in the US.

[quote] The govt does nothing for you except education and healthcare

Gee...is that all? Education and health care? You mean people aren't saddled with tens of thousands in debt?

BTW: The government does other little things too like keeping guns out of circulation, keeping the crime rate low. Have you taken a look at the SLAUGHTER going in cities across the US?

[quote]If you own a property, you are in for a pile of bureaucracy that you can't even contemplate

Bullshit.

[quote]And if you're gay, forget about being out and proud.

More bullshit.

[quote]I hear it all the time on the Facebook expat groups.

Because expats are generally clueless. And yeah, when you can't speak the language...or speak it poorly...things do tend to be difficult.

....

Bye bye. Too man people in the US anyway. We should send our illegal immigrants though.

[quote]However the men are such vain clotheshorses, you can generally blend right in without having to butch it up too much.

I am gay and I find it interesting living here. Italian men definitely aren't about butching it up for anyone. The one thing I've come to learn is that here the Women are stronger than the men and the Men are prettier than the women. Italian men love to be admired. They will go out of their way sometimes to put themselves in your line of view so you can admire them. They don't seem to care if you are admiring their clothes or naked body in the locker room. They don't seem to care if you're gay or straight. In fact if you're gay them seem to court your opinion because they value it more. They are intimate, curious, playful to distraction and very likely to do something with another guy, but they would never call it gay.

One of my favorite interactions so far was with the Carabiniere here (a division of law enforcement) who are very often hot and whose outfits basically look like fetish gear. I was sitting, videoing a pretty street in Trastevere on my phone when this cop car slowly rolled up past me with two young dark haired, attractive carabiniere inside. The driver had a sly grin on his face when he said something to me in Italian. I was nervous at the time because I had no idea what he said and I wasn't sure about the rules about photographing law enforcement. He said it again. Then when he realized I didn't understand they just drove off chuckling.

It wasn't until half a minute later when I put together what I thought I heard that I realized he was saying very flirtatiously, coyly "Do you want to take a picture of me?" It was so sexy.

Most younger educated Italians are desperate to get out of Italy. I had a friend who had a PhD in chemistry and was making peanuts at a lab outside of Venice. She got a much better paying job in Berlin.

I guess it is a good thing that ancient Americans are taking their place.

....

R493 that is one of the worst written articles I have read in a very long time. It makes points but I don't even know what argument it is standing behind. Some of the paragraphs I thought I was suffering from a stroke. They start the article by saying young people are leaving Italy in droves, but ends up saying the young people of Italy never leave their childhood homes. It never connects the meaning of both of the assertions.

What those articles don't state is the number of Italians that leave the country for work and then return.

Also, actually the youth unemployment rate has been steadily improving in the last 10 years.

[quote]I had a friend who had a PhD in chemistry and was making peanuts at a lab outside of Venice. She got a much better paying job in Berlin.

She moved within the EU for work. As Americans move from one state to another.

Italy's youth unemployment is only slightly higher than Sweden's.

Spain and Greece have the highest youth unemployment in Europe.

And of course Italians often live with their parents. Part of that is for financial reasons, but also cultural. Strong family ties are part of the culture. Americans scoff at that. Italians think that's weird.

But even so: "A majority of young adults in the U.S. live with their parents for the first time since the Great Depression". "In July, 52% of young adults resided with one or both of their parents" (Pew Research Sept 2020)

Home ownership in Italy is also at about 80% because kids leave late, skipping the renting part of adulthood and head straight into home ownership. You first primary home here in Rome is tax free. They recently had a program to try and retain Italian youth. The government was basically buying a home under $200 for you - meaning you didn't have to put anything down, the interest rate was extremely low. They do a lot for their citizens to try and get them to stay. And as the poster above said, a lot of them do end up coming back.

European gas shortages likely to last several winters, says Shell chief

Gas shortages across Europe are likely to last for several winters to come, the chief executive of Shell has said, raising the prospect of continued energy rationing as governments across the continent push to develop alternative supplies.

His comments come as Europe’s biggest economies brace for a tough winter of soaring inflation and the threat of recession, as record increases in gas and electricity bills pile pressure on households and businesses across the continent.

The French prime minister, Elizabeth Borne, warned companies that energy could be rationed this winter, while Belgium’s energy minister said the next five to 10 years could be difficult.

I'll add that energy prices are soaring in the US as well. But since we are one of the world's largest producers of natural gas, our costs are not exploding the way they are in the UK and Europe. Natural gas prices in Europe are currently around $70/MMBtu, while in the US they're not quite $9/MMBtu. As a basis of comparison, US natural gas prices last winter hit a high of about $2.57/MMBtu and people were screaming bloody murder when they got their heating bills, so this winter will be almost four times more expensive. Still, compared to Europe and the UK, we still have energy and it is still affordable to most.

Europeans have survived plagues, wars, conquests. A winter without *as much* and *cheap* gas will hurt, but is completely manageable. They'll survive. They've done so for centuries.

The Republicans regaining control after the upcoming midterms coupled with the Democrats' continued trainwreck of any cogent policy, well that'll be as devastating as just four years under Trump. The USA hasn't recovered yet and the worst is still to come.

Our exit strategy is also very much in fine tuning mode.

R501, don't be so goddamn flippant. European countries are already looking into emergency measures this winter that will, among other things, require certain industries to periodically shut down to save energy. Small businesses are saying they'll be forced out of business with the completely unaffordable energy costs. And many if not most households are simply not going to be able to afford to heat their homes.

So - hard recession, high unemployment, and probably for several years. That's not 'completely manageable'. That's the kind of circumstance that leads to massive unrest.

R502 If that's your definition of flippant, then my a sheltered life you live.

Let's see how your gloom and doom pans out.

Hopefully not like the US which is also teetering on recession and unemployment, while adding in a mix of violence and yes political divides that is going to tale several administrations to undo, if such a thing is possible.

Trump brought out the worst in Americans and they don't want to change.