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What exactly happened between Arthur MiIler and Marilyn Monroe?

I was watching the doc on Netflix "The Mystery of Marilyn Monroe: The Unheard Tapes" and it up something I did not know. When Miller and Monroe went to London for her to film "The Prince and the Showgirl" she found a note from Miller who wrote something to the effect that he had thought she was an angel but she was flawed like his ex-wife and she was a whore. This apparently really devastated her. Did he ever say anything about what soured their relationship?

by Anonymousreply 356July 6, 2022 6:50 AM

He wrote a whole play about it. Miller was also an ASS.

by Anonymousreply 1June 19, 2022 4:31 PM

Miller wrote a play called after the fall. He was extremely vicious toward Monroe in that play.

by Anonymousreply 2June 19, 2022 8:04 PM

Miller was truly an old-school sexist pig. While Marilyn played an old-school sex pot, in her own was she was radical. But she was radical in a society that shunned radical women. I would imagine being shunned by her own husband was personally devastating to her, it affirmed her lifelong fear of abandonment and low self-worth.

by Anonymousreply 3June 19, 2022 8:17 PM

She married him for clout. He married her for her sex appeal. It was simply a very bad match between 2 people with nothing in common. By the time Monroe overdosed Miller was completely over her. I think he said something to the effect of her being beyond help.

by Anonymousreply 4June 19, 2022 8:22 PM

Many many geniuses are jerks.

by Anonymousreply 5June 19, 2022 8:24 PM

I was just watching an interview with him done in 1987 and he actually did grieve and felt guilt over not being able to "save her" and he felt she was doomed to her fate. He sounded like he was genuinely in love with her when they were married. He said something like he gave in to sensuality so I'm guessing the sex between the two was hot.

by Anonymousreply 6June 19, 2022 8:24 PM

[quote]What exactly happened between Arthur MiIler and Marilyn Monroe?

Some really, really hot sex.

by Anonymousreply 7June 19, 2022 8:27 PM

She married him because she wanted to be seen as a serious person and not a sex symbol but I think the die was cast by the time she married him. She couldn't change her image at that point. He married her because she was a sex symbol but he mostly ignored her while they were married.

by Anonymousreply 8June 19, 2022 8:30 PM

Go to 7:40 in this interview with Olivier. The last little story he tells of Marilyn is very much like what others have said about the best of her. Such a sweet wit and native intelligence.

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by Anonymousreply 9June 19, 2022 8:33 PM

Miller wrote an autobiography, called Timebends. Naturally a lot of it was about Monroe, and naturally it's just from his point of view. Of course it's a good read because he's a good writer (though I don't think a lot of people have read it, after its original best-selling run in the late 80s). It's nonlinear and jumps around quite a lot, This actually allowed him to avoid talking about some things.

Years later I read that he had a son with Down Syndrome (with his 3rd wife, Inge Morath) - who he never mentioned in the book - or ever - publicly.

There are some great things in the book - the things he wrote about his family losing everything in the Depression, for example. He also talks about how he avoided testifying and how he never named names (and his rift with his friend Kazan over this).

by Anonymousreply 10June 19, 2022 9:00 PM

“You’re very tough on the Strasbergs in your memoir,” I say.

“Well, I meant to be,” Miller says.

“You describe them as poisonous, and vacuous.”

“That’s a good description.”


“Mr. and Mrs.”

“The inference one draws is that they were almost instrumental in Marilyn’s dissolution.”

“Well, put it this way. They had an immense influence on her mind. Immense. Not the wife, but him. The wife she saw through, pretty much. But she never saw through him. He had the fascination of a guru. Not just for Marilyn, but for a lot of much less suffering people. What he was saying, in effect, was, You can’t do anything without me. From time to time you’re gonna have to, but never forget that.

Well, if you’ve already got weak legs, and you’re not standing on them solidly, that can be a severe blow. In other words, you’re never gonna grow up.”

Monroe’s fantasy about Miller centered on domesticity, and true domesticity meant having a child. When she suffered an ectopic pregnancy in 1957, and learned she might never have a baby, she was crushed. As a kind of compensation, Miller wrote her a short story called “The Misfits,” about the cowboy Gay Langland and his gentle lady friend, Roslyn. The story was meant for the movies, and the part of Roslyn was patently built for Marilyn. But it was a love gift that failed. By the time, John Huston began shooting The Misfits in July 1960, the marriage barely existed.

“Is the story of The Misfits a story of the two of you coming apart under the influence of the Strasbergs?” I ask.

“Well, they helped,” Miller says. “Because they helped to justify her worst self-defeating strategies, if you’d call them strategies. In order to continue to have power over her, they would justify anything. With a large dose of intellectualization. When, if they really had her welfare at heart, they’d have tried to draw her gently closer and closer to reality. And the reality was what she ultimately faced, which was a studio that fired her. Because she wouldn’t appear to make the film.

"Had it been an ordinary situation on The Misfits, she probably would’ve come close to being fired then. ‘Cause we were up there on this dry lake, with some pretty big stars, sitting around for days at a time waiting for her to appear.

“We were coming apart ourselves, irrespective of that,” Miller says. “Because, well, Marilyn always—as I learned later—she would exhaust areas of her life. Simply exhaust them. Then she’d go on. And this was one of them.”

“You, you mean.”

“Well, the whole idea of a domestic existence. I mean, I can’t live for too long in a tent and on the road. I have to have a steady domicile, and some peace and quiet, or I can’t work. And she wanted that, too, with part of her psyche—wanted it desperately.”

“And a child.”

“And a child. But she also wanted something that made that very difficult to have. Which was this power. Star power. Because the opposite was to be destroyed. To be totally destroyed.”

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by Anonymousreply 11June 19, 2022 9:35 PM

That whore(!) told some f&cking racist nightclub that she’d show up if they hired Ella Fitzgerald. She was a good girl who was deeply damaged by men. A true DLer!

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by Anonymousreply 12June 19, 2022 9:53 PM

I believe she was a sweet person, she came off like that but oh so damaged. She may have had some inherited mental illness. Her mom ended up in an institution. Some mental illnesses are passed down from one generation to the next. Probably Bipolar and delusional.

by Anonymousreply 13June 19, 2022 10:00 PM

In the best of cases, it's probably not easy to live with a movie star. But Monroe was a huge star. The press reported on her all the time, no one didn't know who she was (and as Miller stated, part of her needed that, it was like a substitute for a real identity). And as he says, she didn't behave professionally, she was indifferent to keeping whole casts and crews waiting. And he had his own ego - plus he was a writer who did need a certain amount of domestic peace in order to function, and have his mind be in a good place to create. There was no way these two copuld have a marriage.

It's hard reading about her because you never can really figure her out. I don't think she had an integrated personality or knew what she wanted. Even just reading about their house in Connecticut. She wanted this married, quiet life - but it also drove her bonkers to be stuck there with nothing exciting going on. I don't think she was really happy anywhere - she probably was happiest in her head, creating a character, and on a sound stage, acting. Living in a fantasy-reality. Like a lot of actors, only magnified.

by Anonymousreply 14June 19, 2022 10:58 PM

More from Arthur's pov here.

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by Anonymousreply 15June 20, 2022 3:17 PM

Miller was right. She was a whore who knew nothing about love and devotion. To be fair she was mentally ill so not a great surprise.

by Anonymousreply 16June 20, 2022 6:57 PM

Listening to her tapes I've co.e to love her voice. It's soft and feminine without being too babyish. She also makes some very shrewd comments. She's not as vapid and ditzy as she's mistaken as being. At least she could talk without, you know, like, using like every other word like modern celebs.

by Anonymousreply 17June 20, 2022 7:13 PM

How could anyone stay married to someone who pitied them?

And how could anyone remain in a marriage with someone they pitied?

by Anonymousreply 18June 20, 2022 7:16 PM

I watched that yesterday. Poor Marilyn, her childhood was just so fucked up. She must’ve been exhausting to be around though. How does Bobby Kennedy, RIP, maintain that goody two shoes image to this day?

by Anonymousreply 19June 20, 2022 7:19 PM

She and Jackie sound so much alike.

by Anonymousreply 20June 20, 2022 7:19 PM

Miller is the one who broke up his first marriage to be with Marilyn, and then started an affair with the photographer, Inge Morath, from The Misfits while married to Marilyn. He later married her. Miller used Marilyn's fame to prolong his own and also utilized his wife's presence to avoid being labelled a MccArthy communist by the HUAC. Everyone's a whore in love and war.

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by Anonymousreply 21June 20, 2022 7:22 PM

R9, both Miller and Olivier were nasty, sexist pigs. Good for them that they didn't live to get their comeuppance. The story with the Matzo balls is an old joke and most certainly a lie.

by Anonymousreply 22June 20, 2022 7:24 PM

Miller, nerd intellectual, got the world’s hottest woman. She got America’s foremost playwright. It was a fair deal for a while.

by Anonymousreply 23June 20, 2022 7:25 PM

In that documentary, Milker is quoted as saying she was actually whip-smart and her friends all said she was a hard worker and would often stay home nights instead of hitting the bars, in order to study scripts.

That documentary made me think differently of her. And her “real” voice was quite normal. Not the Jackie O whisper baby voice.

As a child she was just stunning. Naturally.

by Anonymousreply 24June 20, 2022 7:25 PM

^ Milker. Lol. Meant Miller.

by Anonymousreply 25June 20, 2022 7:25 PM

I don’t think Jackie did the whisper in private either. I imagine her voice was lower, like Lee or little Edie’s.

by Anonymousreply 26June 20, 2022 7:27 PM

I think that Irish journalist was quite taken with MM while he was researching her.

by Anonymousreply 27June 20, 2022 7:28 PM

That whole birthday celebration for JFK at Madison Square Garden is so weird to me. First of all to have that kind of an extravaganza to celebrate the president’s birthday, wtf. And then Marilyn practically nude onstage, singing lewdly. I forget where Jackie was, but what a public slap in the face to her, she must’ve been livid pissed because surely she knew what was going on.

by Anonymousreply 28June 20, 2022 7:30 PM

Misfits is good but sad movie. Marilyn and Arthur were bad to each other at that point. She sometimes showed up eight hours late. Monty gave a fine performance. Gable died short after filming was over. Houston had good but difficult cast. Wallach died in 2014, he was 98.

by Anonymousreply 29June 20, 2022 7:32 PM

Making Arthur Miller out to be some kind of violent he-male misogynist abuser is baffling. It must be Marilyn fraus posting in this thread. She was not an easy woman to live with, I don't believe she was malicious at all, but she was unstable, erratic, needy.....he didn't know what he was getting into was the problem. He married the image.

Like Rita Hayworth said, "men think they're going to bed with Gilda, but they're waking up with me." Miller thought he was going to bed with glamorous, funny movie star Marilyn, not the mentally ill child woman Norma Jean.

by Anonymousreply 30June 20, 2022 7:35 PM

What I found odd was the revelation that Marilyn would often be at Lawford's house parties with all the Kennedy's including Jackie. Sounds like Jackie may have actually liked her. The thing is Jackie knew John was a horn dog but looked the other way as they do in that social group.

by Anonymousreply 31June 20, 2022 7:39 PM

R31 Wait, I missed that, Jackie was there? I heard someone refer to all the wives being there, but I thought that just meant the wives of Lawford’s Hollywood crowd, not the first lady.

by Anonymousreply 32June 20, 2022 7:43 PM

"The great thing about her, to me, is the struggle was valiant. She was a very courageous human being, and she didn't give up, I guess, really, until the end."

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by Anonymousreply 33June 20, 2022 7:51 PM

I wish somebody would put the full tv version of After the Fall with Faye Dunaway and Christopher Plummer on youtube.

by Anonymousreply 34June 20, 2022 7:55 PM

R12 oh wow. She did something nice for a black person one time? *eye roll*

by Anonymousreply 35June 20, 2022 7:55 PM

You're an idiot R35. Marilyn was a very progressive woman. She was watched by the FBI. And the story at R12 leaves out that she was there for Ella - every night. It's not a small thing at all.

Just as Frank Sinatra and Dinah Shore would champion black talent at considerable risk to their own careers.

[quote]I owe Marilyn Monroe a real debt … she personally called the owner of the Mocambo, and told him she wanted me booked immediately, and if he would do it, she would take a front table every night. She told him – and it was true, due to Marilyn’s superstar status – that the press would go wild.

[quote] The owner said yes, and Marilyn was there, front table, every night. The press went overboard. After that, I never had to play a small jazz club again. She was an unusual woman – a little ahead of her times. And she didn’t know it.


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by Anonymousreply 36June 20, 2022 8:09 PM

Yes R35 she very pro civil rights and she would have been a champion for gay rights too.

by Anonymousreply 37June 20, 2022 8:11 PM

Whatever her problems with lovers and co stars - they all pretty much adored her. Yes, she chased fame and publicity, but Marilyn was obviously a good person.

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by Anonymousreply 38June 20, 2022 8:33 PM

Watching this now and it seems like they are alluding to the fact that she had threeways with both of the Kennedys?

by Anonymousreply 39June 20, 2022 9:07 PM

She sucked my cock.

by Anonymousreply 40June 20, 2022 11:48 PM

He married her because he was a writer, and in those days that meant queer!

by Anonymousreply 41June 20, 2022 11:51 PM

If only Marilyn and Eleanor Roosevelt had gotten together in the early 1950s.

Marilyn's life would have been so much better.

by Anonymousreply 42June 20, 2022 11:54 PM

Hollywood is a ride through the sewer in a glass bottom boat. Marilyn is its poster child.

by Anonymousreply 43June 21, 2022 12:01 AM

Oral / vaginal / anal

by Anonymousreply 44June 21, 2022 12:05 AM

She's adorable here.

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by Anonymousreply 45June 21, 2022 12:12 AM

[quote]He married her because he was a writer, and in those days that meant queer!

R40 Arthur Miller was already married with children by the time he began his affair with Marilyn. He eventually left his first wife for her.

by Anonymousreply 46June 21, 2022 12:22 AM

She was very adept, and kind. This man asks her dumb blonde questions that anyone would answer angry or defensively today. She corrects him with a lovely finesse. This is why both men and women felt affection for her. Her image was beautiful and commercial beyond measure at times - but Marilyn remained fully human. How misunderstood she must have felt. Even by her husbands. Norman Mailer said that "She conquered a world she could not live in."

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by Anonymousreply 47June 21, 2022 1:03 AM

OP, I recommend this documentary from PBS's "American Masters" series. It chronicles Miller and Marilyn's first meeting in 1951, when he was already a Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright and she was still a starlet, all the way to 1964, with the Broadway premiere of AFTER THE FALL directed by Miller's best friend Elia Kazan and starring Kazan's second wife Barbara Loden in the Marilyn role for which she won the Tony Award.

In between, Miller and Kazan's friendship was tested and ripped apart after Kazan was subpoenaed by HUAC and named names. Later, Marilyn was instrumental in saving Miller when he himself was called to testify and in repairing their friendship. Also, Miller's affair with Marilyn and his immense guilt over it inspired the love triangle in THE CRUCIBLE (John Proctor = Miller, Abigail Williams = Marilyn, Elizabeth Proctor = Mrs., Miller).

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by Anonymousreply 48June 21, 2022 1:14 AM

Marilyn looked even prettier in candid moments.

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by Anonymousreply 49June 21, 2022 1:29 AM

The look of love.

A photographer died in a car crash on Marilyn and Miller's wedding day - racing to capture their happiness.

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by Anonymousreply 50June 21, 2022 2:01 AM

They did a lot of living in their four years together. HUAC hearings, miscarriages, money problems, mental health issues, infidelity. Her affair with co-star Yves Montand certainly didn't help, it was literally frontpage news and had must have been humiliating for Miller. He was supposed to write her an Oscar-winning role; she got The Misfits, which she hated. In her damaged mind, the role was an insult, a humiliation she couldn't forgive.

by Anonymousreply 51June 21, 2022 2:15 AM

Watching some of these old interviews, I just realized the perfect person to play Marilyn would have been Christina Hendricks ten years ago.

by Anonymousreply 52June 21, 2022 2:23 AM

He was a piece of shit. He made his wife put their retarded son (Daniel) in a home immediately after he was born. This was after Marilyn. I think it was the late 60s or 70s. He didn't visit the son either. The son also suffered a lot of abuse at the state home, which was eventually closed down. An elderly couple took him in and raised him

Arthur's wife died before him and he didn't even mention the son in her obituary. It was as if he didn't exist to Arthur.

his daughter (I think her name is Rebecca) is married to Daniel Day Lewis.

He also had syphilis

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by Anonymousreply 53June 21, 2022 2:45 AM

No one has ever played Marilyn well. But the woman in the Lifetime movie with Susan Sarandon playing her mother did by far the best job. Kelli Garner captured Marilyn's essence - without being as beautiful. Who is? It's also the best film about Marilyn. It does a fair job of recreating her triumphs and a better one of addressing her struggles and humanity. A good attempt at comprehensive biography.

Funny that this new Netflix makes people see Monroe all over again. She's been dead 60 years. And she IS still the most famous visage in the world.

Marilyn is best experienced in biographies. Even the bad one. The real woman needs to be seen.

by Anonymousreply 54June 21, 2022 2:55 AM

I preferred this documentary. The Kennedys were not a very interesting part of Monroe's life to me.

Amy Greene and Norman Rosten give their opinions on Miller around 58 minutes in.

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by Anonymousreply 55June 21, 2022 3:47 AM

The MIsfits documentary was really good. Thanks, R15

A friend of mine who works for NPR interviewed Miller and his wife, back in...I forget. They were living in Connecticut at the time. Maybe 20 years ago? Anyhow she thought they were very nice and friendly and hospitable.

by Anonymousreply 56June 21, 2022 4:31 AM

She was basically a drug addict alcoholic. Their marriages don’t last long.

by Anonymousreply 57June 21, 2022 6:19 AM

He walked in on too many scenes like this:

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by Anonymousreply 58June 21, 2022 6:36 AM

"Miller thought he was going to bed with glamorous, funny movie star Marilyn, not the mentally ill child woman Norma Jean."

I feel rather sorry for any man who fell in love with the real Marilyn, because they probably started off thinking she was this sex goddess who was adorably sweet in private, and in time they found out that she was mentally ill and a bottomless pit of need. But, who was still sweet enough that they couldn't leave without a struggle. I mean everyone puts on a bit of a false face when they're trying to get someone else interested, but Marilyn took that to an extreme, to the point that it made relationships impossible.

I don't hate Miller or blame him for Marilyn's decline, she was a mess before him and a mess during and after their marriage. It's ridiculous for anyone to blame him for failing to save her, love doesn't save people from mental illness.

by Anonymousreply 59June 21, 2022 7:09 AM

“I remember one day, Marilyn was drinking champagne, and by 5:30 in the afternoon she couldn't work anymore. And I saw Arthur Miller, who was then her husband, drive onto the set in a limousine and take her arm and just yank her into the car, like she was a drunk, which of course she was, except that not Miller or nobody else thought of it as a disease, and they just treated her like a drunk, and she never got the help she needed.”

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by Anonymousreply 60June 21, 2022 10:01 AM

[quote]He also talks about how he avoided testifying and how he never named names (and his rift with his friend Kazan over this).

One thing in Miller's defense. The HUAC offered to let him not testify if they could meet Marilyn and have their pictures taken with her. He told them to go to hell.

by Anonymousreply 61June 21, 2022 10:31 AM

Arthur Miller resembles Jeff Goldblum.

by Anonymousreply 62June 21, 2022 2:15 PM

R60 She also fucked Curtis while she was married to Miller.

by Anonymousreply 63June 21, 2022 3:32 PM

I actually don't think she fucked those guys. I don't think she was as sexually promiscuous as the rumors made her and I think a lot of those guys embellished the truth. I remember an interview with some "Dame" who co-starred with her in The Prince and the Showgirl who said the real reason "Larry" was bitchy was because he anticipated an affair with Marilyn but she was barely back from her honeymoon so not open for business.

by Anonymousreply 64June 21, 2022 4:22 PM

Well said R59 -- "I feel rather sorry for any man who fell in love with the real Marilyn, because they probably started off thinking she was this sex goddess who was adorably sweet in private, and in time they found out that she was mentally ill and a bottomless pit of need. But, who was still sweet enough that they couldn't leave without a struggle."

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by Anonymousreply 65June 21, 2022 5:26 PM

Well said R59 -- "I feel rather sorry for any man who fell in love with the real Marilyn, because they probably started off thinking she was this sex goddess who was adorably sweet in private, and in time they found out that she was mentally ill and a bottomless pit of need. But, who was still sweet enough that they couldn't leave without a struggle."

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by Anonymousreply 66June 21, 2022 5:27 PM

R64 Even Howard Keel in his autobiography said he slept with her.

by Anonymousreply 67June 21, 2022 5:55 PM

Btw, I'm in the "I think they did all fuck her" camp.

by Anonymousreply 68June 21, 2022 5:56 PM

After learning about histrionic personality disorder from the Depp trial, I'd bet that Marilyn had that as well. They can tend to see relationships as more intimate than they really are.

by Anonymousreply 69June 21, 2022 6:41 PM

Haven't you ever known women who had such low self esteem that they thought all they had to offer was their body, r68?

by Anonymousreply 70June 21, 2022 6:43 PM

Marilyn was most definitely promiscuous. Many child abuse victims are.

by Anonymousreply 71June 21, 2022 6:43 PM

Miller is actually quite attractive, it's mainly the thick specs that make him look nerdy.

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by Anonymousreply 72June 21, 2022 6:43 PM

Miller was one of the greats. His plays will survive for centuries. And check out The Misfits for a touch of the poet. But his marrying Monroe couldn't have been more humiliating . A narcissistic moron's dream come true. At least DiMaggio could be excused as a dumb jock. As for whatever happened between Miller and and Monroe I'm sure it was pathetic as well.

by Anonymousreply 73June 21, 2022 6:54 PM

R70 Well, yes, and that is why I thought she fucked everyone.

by Anonymousreply 74June 21, 2022 7:15 PM

She found something insulting he'd written about her on their honeymoon, saying she was mad and he'd made a big mistake marrying her.

Anyone mention that she risked her career back in 1956 by standing by him when he refused to testify at the House of UnAmerican Activities? She could have been blacklisted. The FBI even opening a file on her.

Misfit Girl often posted here how cruel he was to her on the set of that movie. She hated that he actually took lots of things she said in real life and put them into the script. And it wasn't a gift, he charged her production company thousands of dollars for it.

Jackie Kennedy actually refused to attend a party he was at, saying she was disgusted how he used and portrayed a dead woman in After The Fall.

Plus he took plenty of her money in the divorce.

by Anonymousreply 75June 21, 2022 7:36 PM

She was hypersexuai like most BPs seeking a feel good moment (relief) they hope will last. This is typical. They use booze and drugs in the same manner.

Nothing wrong with a lot of sex unless there's an agreement with the partner to save it for home. She was an impossible partner.

by Anonymousreply 76June 21, 2022 7:38 PM

They interviewed a producer who said she was one of the girls in their black book who was down to fuck anyone who could help make her a star and everyone had a turn. Some of them looked really old and gross.

by Anonymousreply 77June 21, 2022 7:38 PM

I've read that Marilyn imediately started cheating on him, because for her cheating/having sex with others wasn't a big deal, but apparently for Miller it was, and she couldn't understand why he was so mad about it. Maybe that note is about this.

by Anonymousreply 78June 21, 2022 7:56 PM

She didn't fuck Curtis while she was married to Miller. If they fucked at all, it was likely in the early days before she even met Miller. Why would she fuck somebody who compared her to Hitler, and if they were already fucking, why would he say that about her? Curtis was a good actor, but when interest in him started to wane, he began telling lies about Monroe to increase his stature. He started saying that MM was pregnant with his child during the making of Some Like it Hot. I do believe the story about Marilyn drinking champagne on the set of SLIH and Arthur yanking her into the limo, but some of his other tales about her were highly suspect. He was all over the place when he spoke about her.

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by Anonymousreply 79June 21, 2022 7:58 PM

Tony Curtis changed his story about Marilyn 1,000 times. He was an absolute bastard.

Miller's treatment of his son, Daniel, tells me all I need to know about his character.

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by Anonymousreply 80June 21, 2022 8:06 PM

[quote]Miller's treatment of his son, Daniel, tells me all I need to know about his character.

How do you mean?

by Anonymousreply 81June 21, 2022 8:09 PM

I wasn't talking of Curtis.

I was talking of Yves Montand, and apparently others

by Anonymousreply 82June 21, 2022 8:09 PM

I mean, i wouldn't be surprised if Marilyn fucked Curtis too

by Anonymousreply 83June 21, 2022 8:11 PM

Robert Osborne on TCM always acted like Marilyn was the only one who ever fucked for roles. He didn't seem to have a ton of respect for her.

by Anonymousreply 84June 21, 2022 8:11 PM

R78 that's not true, there's no documented affairs until Yves Montland in 1960.

Tony Curtis was a complete liar who, as noted, who told all kind of lies about MM to get attention. There's no way on earth he was the father of her baby either. Huge turd.

by Anonymousreply 85June 21, 2022 8:13 PM

But why would Miller call her a whore if she never cheated?

Miller is a writer and i'm sure that he has chosen the word he thought was more appropriate to describe her( i adore Marilyn btw- but she was without a doubt difficult to live with )

by Anonymousreply 86June 21, 2022 8:19 PM

When did he call her a whore?

by Anonymousreply 87June 21, 2022 8:27 PM

Of course Marilyn fucked Curtis.

[Quote]Why would she fuck somebody who compared her to Hitler,

Curtis was being sarcastic. When asked by a group of others what it was like fucking Marilyn Monroe he responded sarcastically "Like fucking Hitler." In other words, like the worst experience imaginable which meant are you kidding me? She's Marilyn Monroe! It was fabulous.

by Anonymousreply 88June 21, 2022 8:52 PM

R59 Well, she was a gemini, they are bipolar by nature

by Anonymousreply 89June 21, 2022 8:53 PM

R54, IMO one of the best portrayals of MM was a not great TV-movie from 1980 starring Catherine Hicks, with the late, great Sheree North (who was pitched as C+/B- alternative to Marilyn at Fox when she first hit Hollywood) as Norma Jean’s mother Gladys Baker. Hicks didn’t really look like MM, and was let down by the hair department, but she was able to capture some sense of the magic and got an Emmy nomination (she was coached by costar North.)

by Anonymousreply 90June 21, 2022 10:22 PM

Their relationship is summed up by one anecdote in TIMEBENDS. Monroe asks Miller to write her a screenplay with a serious role which would be a departure from her other roles. Miller jumped at the chance, figuring it would be his gateway to Hollywood and film writing since Monroe would be starring. Monroe had in mind something like THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV. (yep) But Miller's "Valentine" was THE MISFITS with a role for Marilyn as low-down as he could get-- a tawdry good-time girl lost in the desert with a pack of loser men. The best of the loser men is Gable, and when she falls for him, he turns her down.

I always thought how soul-destroying it must have been for Monroe to say these words of Miller's written in betrayal. MISFITS is painful to watch. Miller, Huston, and the producer Frank Taylor were like a pack of jackals taking Monroe down.

by Anonymousreply 91June 21, 2022 11:13 PM

[quote]Curtis was being sarcastic. When asked by a group of others what it was like fucking Marilyn Monroe he responded sarcastically "Like fucking Hitler." In other words, like the worst experience imaginable which meant are you kidding me?

Oh, Sweetie. Just. No.

His comment was about KISSING Hitler.

by Anonymousreply 92June 22, 2022 12:12 AM

Yeah, if you say so, R88.

"Out with him, in with my fantasy!"

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by Anonymousreply 93June 22, 2022 12:19 AM

Tony Curtis was not Marilyn's type. She liked then tall and lean and sometimes dark. Aesthetically pleasing to her. The fact that she enjoyed sex doesn't make her any kind of mentally ill. She displayed nothing of a bipolar nature. Other disorders, perhaps.

Just whom do you think is who's date here? Marilyn with Billy Travilla, the costume designer and ...... look where her arm is.....What a fucking handsome man.

Tony Curtis was an ugly short crude man - Marilyn couldn't even fake being attracted to him. She would never fuck him. Shelley Winters and Jane Fonda exaggerated their connection to Monroe as well. When THEY got old. Tony Curtis and Jane Fonda couldn't even keep their lies straight.

Marilyn enjoyed sex. She spoke openly about it, never crudely. She was progressive and open minded. Sometimes it was transactional. But never for cash. She was married off to her first husband because no one would pay for her keep at 16 years old. She was a lifelong commodity but she's no more a whore than anyone else who turns to sex for comfort and ego gratification. Pleasure. She was ahead of her time. A most interesting spirit and a beautiful woman. She suffered from depression and self doubt. One of the least bitchy women of any Hollywood star - she remained thoughtful and sensitive and drank far too much. Pills and liquor. No doubt the ghosts of her childhood were always in the wings.

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by Anonymousreply 94June 22, 2022 12:38 AM

Didn't she herself, or a close friend, say about her that "sex was like a handshake". She wasn't hung up on it or by it. Not a nympho, sometimes a whore by necessity (aren't we all), and unfortunately doing exactly what was expected of most Hollywood starlets to get roles. Even Hedy Lamarr had that witty quote about your star position being determined by who you fucked, and Hedy was no dummy.

As for all of the other shit--Miller lived off her and tried to get more fame from his association, then left when she wouldn't fulfill his intellectual image.

by Anonymousreply 95June 22, 2022 12:51 AM

She was borderline, not bi-polar. It happens a lot to people who lose their mothers or have crazy mothers.

by Anonymousreply 96June 22, 2022 12:52 AM

^^when they lose their mothers in childhood.

by Anonymousreply 97June 22, 2022 12:52 AM

What’s the news on Nick Gruber? Does he still live in NYC? Who has had him?

by Anonymousreply 98June 22, 2022 12:54 AM

Oops wrong thread

by Anonymousreply 99June 22, 2022 12:55 AM

[quote]Miller jumped at the chance, figuring it would be his gateway to Hollywood and film writing

Wait, this is Arthur Miller we're talking about. The celebrated playwright of All My Sons and Death Of A Salesman (plays which had already been made into movies long before this). If he had wanted to write movies prior to The Misfits, I'm sure the studios would have welcomed him. I'm sure his agent couild have gotten him a movie deal.

On the other hand, he did write a "waterfront story" for Kazan to film, which wasn't made (though Kazan's waterfront film was made with a different script - by Budd Schulberg - as On The Waterfront).

by Anonymousreply 100June 22, 2022 1:19 AM

Miller never created a major work after his marriage to Marilyn. He didn't marry her for notoriety - he was hopelessly infatuated with her and she said she was insanely physically attracted to him. It was LOVE. It's clear in the many photos of them during their NYC year.

But Miller did basically turn into her manager, caretaker, personal writer and PR person during their marriage. He fired Milton H Greene who was probably the best friend that Marilyn ever had and the one who progressed her and saw her best. Because Milton and Monroe with in a financial partnership and a playful friendship. His many photos of hers reveal far more than a casual connection and understanding.

The ONLY two plays he would write in the next 50 year were BOTH about his life with Marilyn and were both heavily criticized. Did she ruin him, or did he see her as both an investment and a wife? Did she haunt him? There's no doubt that he loved her - but he was not a man seeking such an unstable life.

The weight of their failure surely was harder on her. She wanted respect, love and family AND to remain a film star and become a great actress!! Miller was the man who disappointed her the most. How could he not?

The person I loved most in my life is not the one I had the most stable or successful relationship with. Their marriage was very painful, I think. He knew more what he was getting than Marilyn did. She expected better of him than he turned out to be. He was, in the end - another man who used her. He thought he could both possess her image AND reform the parts of her he didn't like. Because he was a true man of letters and serious thought - he continued to examine his life with her for the rest of his. But After The Fall was unforgivable, less than 2 years after her suicide. He laid her out as a dumb pitiful whore. That HE was hopelessly in love with. It was too undigested. Still doesn't work. A bad, misogynist and tone deaf play.

As the poster said upthread - "they go to bed with Gilda, but wake up with me"

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by Anonymousreply 101June 22, 2022 1:45 AM

*Because Milton and Monroe were involved in a financial partnership and a close, artistic friendship.

by Anonymousreply 102June 22, 2022 1:51 AM

Her mental illness and (I hate to say this) abuse of pills and alcohol on the set of The Misfits was severe. Some days she didn't make it to the set; some days she showed up in the afternoon, wasted and barely to speak. They were unable to rouse her in the morning. They couldn't be strict with her because she'd start to cry and then ruin her makeup. It's a wonder the movie was completed. But those lines... "You're only happy when you can see something die! Why don't you kill yourselves and be happy!"

by Anonymousreply 103June 22, 2022 1:52 AM

He was very generous about her in his autobiography “Timebends.” He learned how emotionally damaged she was after they married. I think part of his attraction for her was that she supposed he was part of an intellectual set she admired when in reality, he kept his distance from those cliques. He thought Strasberg and his wife undermined her natural comedic and dramatic skills. Two stories stand out, Frank Lloyd Wright visited Miller’s Connecticut farm and told Miller not to put another penny in it! Monroe wanted crushed gravel on the driveway because she liked the sound!

by Anonymousreply 104June 22, 2022 2:41 AM

R80 The article about Miller disowning his newborn son Daniel broke my heart. What a fascinating read. So glad the times have changed and people aren't putting their babies in institutions anymore. Also was cool to hear that Daniel-Day Lewis encouraged his wife Rebecca's relationship with her baby brother.

by Anonymousreply 105June 22, 2022 3:03 AM

He married her because he, at first, was enchanted by her. She was the ultimate trophy wife. He found her child-like and sensitive and was of course blown away by her beauty and sexuality. She married him because she thought he took her seriously and would take care of her. She had a preference for older man types who could be a father substitute. Miller soon found out that she was a train wreck mentally and that living with her was a torment. "She's devouring me", he said to Milton Greene and Laurence Olivier during the filming of "The Prince and the Showgirl." The marriage was a match made in hell, just one of those pairings that so often occur between two famous people. They were both to blame for it, although Marilyn supposedly got cold feet before the wedding and wanted to flee, but decided to go through with it so as not to "disappoint" all the people who had shown up for the wedding.

by Anonymousreply 106June 22, 2022 3:16 AM

Miller did institutionalize his son but also left same son an inheritance equal to his other children.

by Anonymousreply 107June 22, 2022 4:20 AM

[Quote]Shelley Winters and Jane Fonda exaggerated their connection to Monroe as well. When THEY got old.

Wtf? Shelley Winters and Marilyn lived together in a rented apt.

Jane Fonda knew Monroe well via her agent Charles Feldman who threw regular parties at his BH home which was known as the house of debauchery.

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by Anonymousreply 108June 22, 2022 8:37 AM

I like Marilyn but she stays hogging up all the attention from other Old Hollywood actresses. Ava Gardner was just as progressive and had several black friends yet hardly anyone talks about her. Dorothy Dandridge had an equally tragic life and had to deal with the added weight of racism yet she’s not given nearly as much sympathy as Marilyn.

by Anonymousreply 109June 22, 2022 8:50 AM

Ava lived to relative old age. Marilyn died young, before she could get old and ugly. If she had, her popularity wouldn't be a tenth of what it was after she died.

by Anonymousreply 110June 22, 2022 8:58 AM

Yes, Marilyn really wasn’t anything special besides her tragic death and the insane story leading up to it. Poor bitch lived 100 years in about 10, with all the horrid things that happened to her. Only a couple of her movies where she stars (Gentlemen Prefer Blondes and Some Like It Hot) totally hold up and that’s mainly because they’re well written and the other cast members do the heavy lifting. The other movies are only known because she died. I don’t count All About Eve or others where she wasn’t yet “Marilyn Monroe” the image.

I don’t think she was more beautiful or sexy than Ava or ET, and her persona just creeps me out. She was basically a womanchild, with that breathy baby voice. How does one find someone so obviously vulnerable to be a hot fuck? Is it a hetero male thing? I like Ava’s bawdy wild woman image or Liz’s melodramatic glamour queen image better. I think it was Robert Mitchum who said Marilyn was the least sexy woman he knew because she was so obviously insecure and sad.

by Anonymousreply 111June 22, 2022 12:59 PM

I know quite a few women who love Marilyn. It's like she's an icon for them so I actually think it's more of a straight woman thing.

by Anonymousreply 112June 22, 2022 1:03 PM

I moved to a medium sized town in the Midwest 7 years ago and since then I've seen dozens of black women in Marilyn Monroe shirts. I've never seen even one in a Dorothy Dandridge shirt. It is what it is.

by Anonymousreply 113June 22, 2022 2:09 PM

There is a wondaful recording of the original cast of Art Miller's After the Fall starring Mr. Jason Robards as the Miller character Quentin. Very worthwhile, if you're interested in the Miller/Monroe tale.

There was a TV movie version of it, which is impossible to find now, with Faye Dunnaway and Chris Plumber in 1974. If anyone knows where to find that, let me know!!

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by Anonymousreply 114June 22, 2022 2:16 PM

I completely disagree with the notion that Marilyn wasn't anything special. She is the ULTIMATE movie star. She is otherworldly in that regard. She is not human, she is STAR.

by Anonymousreply 115June 22, 2022 2:20 PM

R103 For reasons I won't go into here, many years ago I studied everything I could find on THE MISFITS. There were many first-hand accounts, and this was before the easy answers on Google. The film was doomed from the start. Miller's script wasn't good, and he rewrote morning to night-- which paralyzed the actors and crew who never knew which rewrites were current. Huston was gambling and being chased by the mob for his losses, and of course, he was drinking heavily. Clift was damaged and drugged. Gable was dying. Miller was sleeping with Morath. The easy way out for producer Frank Taylor may have been pinning it all on Marilyn. She came into the production clean and hopeful, but the chaos on set and in the rustic Reno location affected her as it did them all. When the production bled money and needed an infusion, Marilyn was the easy scapegoat. She had her problems, but in this production, everyone else did too.

by Anonymousreply 116June 22, 2022 2:23 PM

I’m surprised so little has been said here about Miller’s play about her, “After the Fall” (1964), directed by Elia Kazan. Though it received, and continues to receive, a mixed response, Barbara Loden, playing a thinly disguised character based on Marilyn, got the best reviews, and even won the Tony for Best Featured Actress.

I wonder if there’s any video of this production.

by Anonymousreply 117June 22, 2022 2:24 PM

Monroe is absolutely iconic but she never really captured my interest for whatever reason. And I love hearing about old hollywood. I'm more interested in other glamorous ladies of that time. Like Ava Gardner, Sofia Loren ,Carole Lombard, Lena Horne, Rita Hayworth, Judy Garland, Leslie Caron, Jean Seberg and Dorothy Dandridge. To name just a few. I know how much she means to others but I guess it's just lost on me.

by Anonymousreply 118June 22, 2022 2:39 PM

The part in The Misfits has insulting elements, but her performance doesn't play into them. Considering how much she was struggling at this time, she still manages to find some wonderful moments. That was her gift, even in the bad times.

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by Anonymousreply 119June 22, 2022 2:56 PM

No one could maintain a relationship with her because she was too troubled and combined with her extraordinary career: impossible for a host of reasons.

by Anonymousreply 120June 22, 2022 3:10 PM

[quote]Miller never created a major work after his marriage to Marilyn.

The Price (1967) is considered a major work, I'm pretty sure. It was nominated for a Tony for best play and won 2 acting and a directing Emmy(s) for the TV version.

by Anonymousreply 121June 22, 2022 3:21 PM

*Naturally, I had to look up the awards, but I remember as a kid when it played on B'way , it got a lot of attention and was a hit play. Looking it up again, I see it ran 425 performances in New York and also did well on the road.

by Anonymousreply 122June 22, 2022 3:23 PM

R117 I posed about it. R114.

There is a movie made for NBC in 1974 of it with Faye Dunnaway. Who had a bit part in it on Broadway 10 years earlier.

Listen to the recording. It's utterly fascinating.

by Anonymousreply 123June 22, 2022 5:25 PM

R116 nailed it. MM had an awful time and didn't help matters but the script was constantly being rewritten everyday and the Director was so drunk everyday he was sober. She was not the main cause of that rotten production.

by Anonymousreply 124June 22, 2022 5:37 PM

The only copy of the Dunaway version I’ve read of is at the the Paley Center for Media (the Museum of Television & Radio) in Los Angeles. I remember someone on the old IMDb boards wrote that you have to look hard for it - it’s not directly under the title AFTER THE FALL.

The original contracts for the show were probably arranged for a single broadcast in 1974, which is why it was never re-aired, or sold on video.

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by Anonymousreply 125June 22, 2022 5:46 PM

New York Times raved about Our Faye, but didn’t like the play. I do - it’s very imaginative.


Arthur Miller's “After the Fall” was first produced for the stage in January, 1964. Tonight at 8:30 o'clock the play is being presented as an NBC‐TV special. At the end of two and a half hours, it is clear that age cannot wither its infinite pretensions.

Ten years ago, more charitable critics were suggesting that the openly autobiographical play was still too close in time to its sources, most notably the phenomenon of Marilyn Monroe, Mr. Miller's former wife and the obvious inspiration for the character of Maggie, thinly disguised as a sexy pop singer. Time has nothing to do with it. The play, for all of its painful sincerity, is an egotistical abomination.

Harold Clunnan, the theater critic, once described Mr. Miller's dramatic technique as a form of “moral jurisprudence.” It is hardly an accident that the play's hero, Quentin, is a lawyer. And in the grand lawyer tradition, his moral confusions are ultimately enervating.

Quentin is the friendly narrator. “Hello, good to see you again,” he says to the audience, which he has never seen before. He is middleaged, with “two divorces in my safe‐deposit box.” He is now in love with Holga, a German girl who provides an excuse for connecting Quentin's drab life with the horror of the Nazi concentration camps.

The play takes place in Quentin's memory. He speaks directly into the camera as figures from present and past appear magically at the corner of the screen. He wonders if he has lived in good faith. He recalls when there used to be good people and bad people “and you could tell.” He worries about things falling apart but immediately wonders if they were ever Whole. He confesses, “I don't know what the hell I'm driving at.”

Sincere soul‐searching by a man of intelligence cannot be easily dismissed. The problem with “After the Fall” is that the perceived image is inflated out of all proportion to the almost banal reality. “Are we killing each other with abstractions?,” asks Quentin: Yes. “God, the hypocrisy!” he cries. Yes.

Faye Dunaway Superb as Neurotic Maggie: Apart from discrepancies of magnitude between ambition and achievement, the play is adrift in hazy characterizations casually manipulated for Quentin's attempts at profundity. His first wife is a catatonic cipher. Holga it little more than warm, mysterious comfort. His friends, caught up in the Communist hunts of the nineteen‐forties and fifties, are a collection of superficial types. Only Maggie is given any depth, and that turns out to be tediously neurotic.

The TV adaptation is, it must be noted, better than the original stage production. Mr. Miller has reworked certain scenes, changing emphasis and tightening the over‐all structure. And the cast is excellent. Christopher Plummer provides a brilliantly modulated portrait of Quentin, and Faye Dunaway is superb as Maggie, distilling the essence of a Monroe type while avoiding cheap impersonation.

The production, produced and directed by Gilbert Cates, is admirable. The play itself remains a distressing failure.

by Anonymousreply 126June 22, 2022 5:56 PM

Regarding After the Fall, many found it distasteful. He lays Marilyn bare in it, but he doesn't spare himself.

One example is Jackie Kennedy. She'd been friendly with Arthur Miller for many years. But, she found his treatment of Marilyn so harsh in After The Fall, she never spoke to him again.

by Anonymousreply 127June 22, 2022 6:02 PM

I don’t think Monroe’s treated “harshly” in the play, as she’s given many loving scenes. But the author doesn’t shy away from including her soggy decline. The character’s just shown for what she is: a grasping addict who’s emotionally disturbed.

Is anyone going to argue that wasn’t MM’s end?

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by Anonymousreply 128June 22, 2022 6:11 PM

Crazy Miss Dunaway's long fall from her glory days is pretty sad too.

by Anonymousreply 129June 22, 2022 6:18 PM

He thought she was something she wasn’t.

by Anonymousreply 130June 22, 2022 6:18 PM

If Faye had died in the late 70s would she be an icon too?

by Anonymousreply 131June 22, 2022 6:31 PM

The classic story of falling in love with someone for the way they look, rather than who they are.

by Anonymousreply 132June 22, 2022 6:38 PM

I agree with whomever said Miller liked MM's money.

by Anonymousreply 133June 22, 2022 6:45 PM

I believe MM gave him their Roxbury farm in the divorce even though she plunged a fortune into it.

by Anonymousreply 134June 22, 2022 6:47 PM

In After the Fall, the Marilyn stand-in Maggie keeps accusing Quentin (Miller) of being a "fag." Its one of her main things in the play.

by Anonymousreply 135June 22, 2022 6:48 PM

Marilyn ADORED Miller's father. He was her date to the Happy Birthday Kennedy affair she sang at

by Anonymousreply 136June 22, 2022 6:49 PM

I saw "After the Fall' in LA some years ago and was surprised at what dreadful, self-pitying dreck it was. Man oh man, Arthur Miller had an exalted sense of himself. The kind of phony "honesty" that makes you hate the person being honest.

by Anonymousreply 137June 22, 2022 6:50 PM

Marriage of convenience, for both. MM wanted to prove she had a brain and Miller wanted to spend her money. MM really struggled with her mental health during their marriage. Masochistic, she married someone who made her feel intellectually inferior.

by Anonymousreply 138June 22, 2022 6:52 PM

He also accepted money for "working his magic" on the Let's Make Love script.

by Anonymousreply 139June 22, 2022 6:53 PM

Mm didn’t even wear sanitary pads during her period, and just lay in bed for days bleeding all over the sheets.

At least he didn’t put THAT in his play!

by Anonymousreply 140June 22, 2022 7:10 PM

Marilyn ADORED Miller's father. He was her d̷a̷t̷e̷ 𝑏𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑑 to the Happy Birthday Kennedy affair she sang at

by Anonymousreply 141June 22, 2022 9:50 PM

Wonder how much all those rose deliveries cost DiMaggio. I know, cold, but I'm just curious.

by Anonymousreply 142June 22, 2022 10:40 PM

When did Miller ever chase money? He married a Hollywood star, did they live in a big house in LA? Did he persue a career in the movies and TV? In the last decades of his life, he owned and operated a Christmas tree farm. He always lived simply. HIs play, Death Of A Salesman, is about the hollowness of the American Dream, and chasing after material success.

by Anonymousreply 143June 22, 2022 10:52 PM


by Anonymousreply 144June 22, 2022 10:52 PM

Marilyn wanted to be taken seriously, but you can't marry your way into being taken seriously!

She read serious books, but like I said before, she had more important things on her mind than analyzing books in an academic way, so she was never going to get the sort of people who take books too seriously to respect her mind. She did study with good acting teachers, but she made the mistake of forming a unhealthy personal relationships with them, instead of just concentrating on learning. And she did produce her own films, which really was the most promising path to becoming a power within the industry, and actors like Burt Lancaster had pulled it off before she tried. She might have pulled it off, and made the studio heads treat her as someone to be reckoned with and not a piece of blonde meat, IF she hadn't shafted herself by single-handedly driving up the budgets on her own films. Every unprofessional hour she spent fretting in her trailer instead of doing her job, gave the powers that be one more reason to dismiss her.

by Anonymousreply 145June 22, 2022 11:02 PM

There are many actresses who were always on time and professional that no one cares abolut any more.

by Anonymousreply 146June 22, 2022 11:09 PM

*cares about

If that were the case, the world would be idolizing and loving Eleanor Parker or Ruth Roman.

by Anonymousreply 147June 22, 2022 11:11 PM

Fangirls like R146 are determined not to see that Marilyn's failure to show up and do her job is the real answer to so many of the questions about her life.

Why didn't she get better scrips and directors? Because those went to actresses who didn't keep the director waiting, or drive up budgets by being hours late. Why didn't she get paid what she was worth? Because she drove budgets through the roof, by keeping crews waiting for hours, days, and weeks. Why didn't the studios take her seriously? Because she couldn't be arsed to show up and do her job, even when she was a producer and responsible for keeping the film on budget! Why was she fired from later films when she needed support them most? Duh! Why did the industry as a whole never take her seriously? Because it was a for-profit and highly competitive industry, with no time for people who cost more money than they generated, and she never seemed to realize that.

The studios did give her a lot more freedom to be her unprofessional charismatic self than they'd give any other actress, most contract players would have been out on their asses after less than a week of staying in their trailers. She wouldn't have lasted a week at any other job in the world, including theater acting, but the movie studios kept her employed for years anyway.

by Anonymousreply 148June 22, 2022 11:44 PM

The movie studios, specifically FOX grossed 200 million dollars from Monroe - at the time of her death. Her lifetime earnings were 3 million. Yes she was unprofessional and fucked up. But she was not an arrogant, entitled grifter like Elizabeth Taylor and Marlon Brando - who rarely even attempted to give a performance when they deigned to appear. They were paid much more for it too. Taylor nearly bankrupted 20th Century Fox. The studio was shut down and the bosses were fired. Liz had "whims" and demands instead of 'insecurities.'

BTW, Marilyn was directed by Billy Wilder, twice, John Huston, twice, George Cukor, Josh Logan and Olivier. Not too shabby. They all KNEW that she was a talented actress. Who couldn't hold it together. But much like Garland before her - when she showed up - she came to work and gave her very best.

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by Anonymousreply 149June 23, 2022 12:05 AM

{quote} Gable was dying.

Gable was not "dying." He did his own stunts in the movie, so he wasn't "dying." But a lot of people say that working on that horrible movie with those horrible fucked up people put him under so much prolonged stress that it gave him the heart attack that killed him. I tend to believe that. Gable was a drinker and smoker but I really believe doing "The Misfits" was what did him in.

by Anonymousreply 150June 23, 2022 12:41 AM

[63] Are you saying Marilyn fucked Tony Curtis? The gay man who publicly insulted her kissing prowess? Sure, Jan.

by Anonymousreply 151June 23, 2022 12:46 AM

Marilyn worshiped Clark Gable. He was her ultimate ideal daddy figure. I read in some bios Marilyn would pretend he was her dad when she was growing up. It must have broken her heart that her nonsense (along with everyone else's, I don't think anyone besides Thelma Ritter was behaving on that set) contributed something to his early death. She attended the christening of his son after he died. The comments on this video are such a frau fest.

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by Anonymousreply 152June 23, 2022 1:50 AM

Dianne Wiest (?!) played the MM character in AFTER THE FALL in 1984 and apparently did a great job.

[quote]New York Times

[quote] The Act II centerpiece - the showdown between Quentin and his new celebrity wife, Maggie - also works in its odd fashion. Or at least it does if one can adjust to Mr. Tillinger's revisionist version of Mr. Miller's heroine. By casting the brunette Miss Wiest as Maggie, a top-of-the-charts singing star, the director has gone out of his way to play down the character's resemblance to Monroe. The notion, while intriguing, seems misguided at first: Miss Wiest just isn't persuasive as the national sex symbol the text claims her to be, and, when we meet her in Act I, she's performing a calculatedly campy impersonation of a dumb starlet.

[quote] But once the storm arrives after intermission, the actress's bravura technique takes over. Maggie's decline from guileless naif to self-hating monster to incipient suicide is a seamless dance of death - paying off with the image of a puffy-faced Miss Wiest tumbling to the floor as weightlessly as a broken doll. Once the enraged and battered Mr. Langella is wrestling with her over bottles of sleeping pills and whisky, 'After the Fall' achieves real fire. It's not a Strindbergian fire, exactly - but, so uncannily does Miss Wiest's singer resemble Judy Garland, that the spectacle suggests what 'A Star Is Born' might have been like if Vicky Lester, rather than Norman Maine, were its alcoholic protagonist.

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by Anonymousreply 153June 23, 2022 1:50 AM
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by Anonymousreply 154June 23, 2022 2:03 AM

I think it was so tacky of Miller to write “After the Fall.” I mean, come on.

by Anonymousreply 155June 23, 2022 2:07 AM

Exactly, R155. Why keep posting reviews and photos of a failed play that was critically scorned?

by Anonymousreply 156June 23, 2022 2:37 AM

Because it'd a bit of outrageous Amrricana, an inside look at their peculiar union. For that it will always be a sidenote to both their legacies.

by Anonymousreply 157June 23, 2022 3:14 AM

^^ Typo apologies. I'm shitfaced high per usual at this hour.

by Anonymousreply 158June 23, 2022 3:16 AM

[quote] Are you saying Marilyn fucked Tony Curtis? The gay man who publicly insulted her kissing prowess? Sure, Jan.

Marilyn fucked EVERYBODY. And what makes you think Tony Curtis was gay? I never heard anywhere that he was. And he didn't insult her "kissing prowess." He said kissing her was like kissing Hitler because he hated her for showing up hours late and not knowing her lines.

by Anonymousreply 159June 23, 2022 3:17 AM

Marilyn was good in Niagara and Bus Stop. She did play some serious roles.

by Anonymousreply 160June 23, 2022 3:18 AM

She played the dimwitted whore in everything she did.

by Anonymousreply 161June 23, 2022 4:00 AM

takes one to know one I guess, R161

by Anonymousreply 162June 23, 2022 4:06 AM

So trust me.

by Anonymousreply 163June 23, 2022 4:12 AM


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by Anonymousreply 164June 23, 2022 4:16 AM

Miller was a piece of shit. Not only was he horrible to Marilyn, when his 3rd wife gave birth to a son with Down Syndrome he insisted that the kid be institutionalized and wouldn't allow his wife to visit him. When it became known that Miller had had this son and had abandoned him, Daniel Day-Lewis and his wife Rebecca - Miller's other child and the sister of the man with Down Syndrome - claimed they were going to make it up to her brother but I bet they did nothing. They were just trying to cover up for Miller being such a mean asshole.

by Anonymousreply 165June 23, 2022 4:17 AM

Miller was embarrassed to have a disabled child, not an ounce of compassion in him.

by Anonymousreply 166June 23, 2022 4:20 AM

Big Jewish cut dick happened. I would be in love too.

by Anonymousreply 167June 23, 2022 4:27 AM

Miller actually did his best to make his marriage to Marilyn work. Her marriage with him was the longest relationship she'd ever had with any man: five years. He really made an effort. But she was too mentally disturbed to have a healthy relationship. Mental illness ran in her family. She was profoundly mentally ill.

by Anonymousreply 168June 23, 2022 4:37 AM

Probably? LMAO

by Anonymousreply 169June 23, 2022 4:39 AM

That's very sad and telling. Down Syndrome children are most often very loving and high functioning. Even in the 60s they didn't need to be institutionalized. But it was too much of an embarrassment to Miller - the great man of letters, puffing on his pipe? Inge Morath came of age surrounded by Nazis. Her parents were sympathizers and she married her Jewish love. She had their son after 40 years of age. Makes Down Syndrome more likely.

All the biographies and encyclopedic entries mention up until recently say that she and Miller had one child, a daughter - Rebecca. Miller insisted this imperfection of a son with a disability be banished not only from his world - but from history. It says a lot. About a cold heart in the centre and the inability to tackle life's difficulties. Miller is the victim of all his own stories. He is intelligent enough to paint himself as a guilty victim. And to portray Inge as a concentration camp survivor in After The Fall.

Something tells me this would not surprise Marilyn Monroe at all.

by Anonymousreply 170June 23, 2022 5:20 AM

He should have encouraged Marilyn to star in Breakfast At Tiffany's

by Anonymousreply 171June 23, 2022 5:26 AM

At least Miller didn’t give his mentally challenged child a lobotomy, like the Kennedys did to Rosemary.

by Anonymousreply 172June 23, 2022 5:27 AM

Someone HERE is against us discussing After The Fall?? At the time, it was likely THE most frank and honest celebrity "confessional" ever. That's what we're all about here.

Remind me of when someone was mad that I was talking about Mel Torme's amazing, gossip laden book about Judy Garland. So odd.

by Anonymousreply 173June 23, 2022 5:33 AM

Do you know any real humans R172? Or do you just regurgitate shit that you read elsewhere ALL DAY LONG?

Your post is tasteless and stupid. Miller is a better human than the Kennedys because he didn't lobotomize his son? High bar. Brilliant observation. You're a cheap intelligence.

Climb the stairs from the basement and get some air. Tomorrow try to help someone. Stop typing, start walking.

R173 IS also R172. He's spent the last THREE days talking to himself on this thread. We KNOW who you are. Get some air. Fresh air. Not from sniffing teen boys underwear.

by Anonymousreply 174June 23, 2022 5:36 AM

[quote]R156 Why keep posting reviews and photos of a failed play that was critically scorned?

You might instead ask why major artists have been attracted to reviving it over the decades.

It’s a highly creative and ambitious play. I’d much rather watch and try to untangle it than most of Miller’s other, more straightforward works.

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by Anonymousreply 175June 23, 2022 5:48 AM

[quote][R173] IS also [R172]. He's spent the last THREE days talking to himself on this thread.

You sound hysterical.

But that’s okay.

by Anonymousreply 176June 23, 2022 5:52 AM

Faye looks like a tranny @ R175.

Marilyn was a woman.

The truth is not a conspiracy. Everyone knows who you are, R176.

And it's NOT okay.

by Anonymousreply 177June 23, 2022 5:54 AM

[quote]The play has its confusions and such clumsy constructions as Holga's dream of kissing a monster baby paralleled with Quentin's final line, "And the wish to kill is never killed, but with some gift of courage one may look into its face when it appears, and with a stroke of love, forgive it."


by Anonymousreply 178June 23, 2022 6:05 AM

Wow. Anyone interested in this topic should watch this interview. I'm kinda blown away.

Also, the clip of After The Fall with Chris Plummer and her Fayness is featured.

If you've ever seen/read the play, it takes place in Millers' mind. And on either side of the stage, there are Nazi concentration camp security towers. What Miler says about this play, and the reasons he left Marilyn Monroe is shockingly honest. And people couldn't handle it in 1964. And many can't now. Which we see on this board.

Watch this interview. I have major respect for him after seeing this.

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by Anonymousreply 179June 23, 2022 6:13 AM

You've already said all that and posted that same interview from one of your other accounts, R179.

by Anonymousreply 180June 23, 2022 6:25 AM

^ unhinged

by Anonymousreply 181June 23, 2022 6:27 AM

In midcentury there was little knowledge or compassion from the majority of people about disability. You can't judge people's actions or beliefs back then by modern standards.

by Anonymousreply 182June 23, 2022 6:28 AM

My mother’s best friend put her mentally damaged daughter in a (nice) institution for life, and concentrated on raising her other kids.

Bette Davis did the same.

by Anonymousreply 183June 23, 2022 6:43 AM

Where did your mother place you, R183? Do you ever get to go outside?

by Anonymousreply 184June 23, 2022 6:45 AM

Marilyn's 'appeal' has always eluded us.

As with Elizabeth "AID$" Taylor, 30 seconds of painful viewing and we change the channel.

by Anonymousreply 185June 23, 2022 6:58 AM

R179 it's not because he's honest and forthright in After The Fall that bothers people, I think it's that:

1. The play is completely his version of events, designed to make him come off better whilst degrading and over simplifying "Maggie"

2. He used Marilyn's celebrity and the interest in her in an attempt to get a hit play. It's similar to a celeb kiss-and-tell, just wrapped up in more intellectual writing

3. It exploits a woman who was not around to defend herself. Miller lived of his dead ex-wife for many years

I'd respect him more if he kept his trap shut about her like DiMaggio did. This was cheap, and not even a great piece of work. Miller peaked in the early 50s as a playwright.

by Anonymousreply 186June 23, 2022 7:17 AM

None of MMs marriages lasted. Considering the emotional baggage she had, in addition to her later addictions, how could they have??

When you have multiple failed marriages, it’s not them, it’s you. And really, one also have to think: just how fucked up must she have been, day in and day out, for a straight man to leave MARILYN MONROE?

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by Anonymousreply 187June 23, 2022 7:26 AM

From what I can tell, this is actually a great play. If the topic interests you at all, do listen to the recording of the 1964 Lincoln Center cast. Jason Robards is excellent. As is Barbara Loden as Maggie, the Marilyn Monroe stand-in. She later married Elia Kazan, who directed her in After The Fall. Also, there is a character in After The Fall who is based on Kazan, and he RATS on his friends, just like Kazan did. It's that kind of play.

I really want to get my hot lil hands on the 1974 TV movie with Faye and Christopher Plummer. I'm dead curious to see it.

I was surprised to see this bit of dialogue from a Broadway play in 1964:

Quentin: Maggie, I'm going for a walk.

Maggie: Why are you wearing those pants? I toldja the seat is too tight.

Quentin: Well, they make them too tight, but I can take a walk in 'em.

Maggie: Faggots wear pants like that, I told you. They attract each other with their asses.

Quentin: You're calling me a faggot now?

Maggie: It's just that I've known fags. And some of them didn't even know themselves that they were, and I didn't know if you knew about that.

Quentin: Well, that's a hell of a way to reassure yourself, Maggie.

Maggie: I'm allowed to say what I see!

The way she delivers the line "I didn't know if you knew about that" is so cutting and acidic. I think it's amazingly honest of him to put that in there.

Anyway, as I said yesterday, it is a very interesting listen.

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by Anonymousreply 188June 23, 2022 7:27 AM

R174 You are wrong about that. I am one of those, but not both. I'm not saying anything at all negative about Miller and his children and all that.

by Anonymousreply 189June 23, 2022 7:29 AM

I meant to type:

[quote]R187 When you have multiple failed marriages, it’s not[bold] just [/bold]them, it’s you.

by Anonymousreply 190June 23, 2022 7:30 AM

R180 No. That is the only time I posted that interview. Why do you think I'm two people?

by Anonymousreply 191June 23, 2022 7:33 AM

And btw, yes, I did post the After the Fall record twice, just because I finished listening to it tonight, and I want people to have a listen.

by Anonymousreply 192June 23, 2022 7:34 AM

[quote]R191 That is the only time I posted that interview. Why do you think I'm two people?

That poster (r180) is sadly and hyperactively befuddled.

by Anonymousreply 193June 23, 2022 7:48 AM

R193 yeah! What the hell is that person trying to prove? Very odd.

by Anonymousreply 194June 23, 2022 8:28 AM

I just read about the Rupert Murdoch / Jerri Hall divorce. Same dynamics.

by Anonymousreply 195June 23, 2022 8:29 AM

R 171. Actually Truman Capote wanted MM in Breakfast at Tiffany's. I don't remember the reason why, but Hepburn was chosen instead.

by Anonymousreply 196June 23, 2022 9:22 AM

Truman and Marilyn were dear close sisters.

Both boozers and pill heads and sizemeat fans!

by Anonymousreply 197June 23, 2022 9:36 AM

R196 he wrote Breakfast At Tiffany's with MM as Holly in mind. She's a curvy blonde in the novella.

by Anonymousreply 198June 23, 2022 10:29 AM

R160 I agree, excellent performances. I love those two.

by Anonymousreply 199June 23, 2022 10:32 AM

Holly Golightly is a composite of different women Capote knew in his youth. She is self made and starves herself to stay thin. The rudeway to describe her origin is white trash. Holly was a child-bride who left her husband in the south to become a sensation in NYC. Very little is known about Holly, she won't discuss the details. Holly changes the subject when the subject is about her origin.

by Anonymousreply 200June 23, 2022 11:40 AM

I don't know if white trash is the correct way to describe the way Marilyn Monroes origin. It was grim and responsible for her mental health struggles.

by Anonymousreply 201June 23, 2022 11:47 AM

Marilyn had a child-like quality that Capote wanted captured in the film. Blake Edwards looked at the material differently.

Did Capote ever comment about the Mickey Rooney parts of the movie?

by Anonymousreply 202June 23, 2022 11:53 AM

Oh, the Elizabeth "AID$" Taylor troll is back, as if championing a disease back when the people who were suffering from it were societal lepers was some kind of marketing ploy.... You don't have to like her acting, but come on!

Anyway, Liz had a much less infantile persona than Marilyn and made better movies overall. She was also a better actress, I'm not saying she was excellent, but she was capable of excellence. Marilyn was good at comedy but totally unwatchable in dramas. The Misfits is a curio because it seemed to curse all its stars. Monty Clift is legitimately excellent in it, but he is a legitimate actor. I also think Clark Gable, even if he was sometimes wooden, was underrated as an acting talent, especially in his early work.

by Anonymousreply 203June 23, 2022 1:28 PM

Well, i'm happy to read that many peopleo here consider The Misfits an awful film.

I've always read nothing but praise about it but i seriusly never understood the appeal, it looked bad and definately wasn't a movie for a glamorous star like Marilyn.

by Anonymousreply 204June 23, 2022 1:51 PM

[quote]Actually Truman Capote wanted MM in Breakfast at Tiffany's. I don't remember the reason why, but Hepburn was chosen instead.

R196 I thought of MM immediately when I read the book. She was obviously his choice.

by Anonymousreply 205June 23, 2022 4:07 PM

Allegedly MM was interested in Breakfast At Tiffany's until Lee Strasberg advised her playing a "call girl" would be bad for her image. The good part of the Miller interview is how he lays into The Strasbergs and how they made MM's life much worse.

I wonder if it might have helped MM if she won acclaim for BAT and even an Oscar? If she'd made this instead of "Let's Make Love" she never would have met Yves Montland and been better off for it.

She wanted desperately to be a "serious actress" but the acclaim she got for her various movies, especially after being mind-fucked at The Actors Studio, didn't seem to do much for her esteem.

by Anonymousreply 206June 23, 2022 6:17 PM

[quote] he wrote Breakfast At Tiffany's with MM as Holly in mind. She's a curvy blonde in the novella.

No, she wasn't. In the novel the narrator says "I see pieces of her all the time, a flat little bottom, any skinny girl who walks fast and straight." Her hair is streaked, not exactly blonde. Doesn't sound like MM at all.

by Anonymousreply 207June 23, 2022 7:08 PM

R207 my mistake. I know he did base the character with MM in mind. Thanks for clarifying, I have the novella but never really read it!

by Anonymousreply 208June 23, 2022 7:18 PM

The fact is that Capote wanted Marilyn to play Holly and Marilyn wanted to play Holly. Blake Edwards and Paramount Studios did not! Shirley MacLaine did turn down the role of Holly and I always thought that Lee Remick might have played her with more depth and cunning too. But Audrey it was. So it was completely sanitized.

[quote]The Oscar-nominated screenplay was written by George Axelrod, loosely based on the novella by Truman Capote. Changes were made to fit the medium of cinema and to correspond to the filmmakers' vision. Capote, who sold the film rights of his novella to Paramount Studios, wanted Marilyn Monroe to play Holly Golightly, whom he had described perfectly in the book. Barry Paris cites Capote's own comments on the choice of actress: "Marilyn was always my first choice to play the girl, Holly Golightly." Screenwriter Axelrod was hired to "tailor the screenplay for Monroe".

by Anonymousreply 209June 23, 2022 7:21 PM

Marilyn wanted to be taken seriusly but had no problem during the filming of "Something's Got To Give" to show herself naked for the pool scene, i remember reading that it was her idea to do that and she wanted the press to talk about her(at the time the press was all over Liz Taylor's Cleopatra). If i remember correctly Miller commented that Marilyn regressed to how she was at the beginning of her career just to have cheap press coverage

by Anonymousreply 210June 23, 2022 8:12 PM

Out takes from Something's Got to Give. The dollface scene was hellish to film.

Marilyn still looked quite lovely.

by Anonymousreply 211June 23, 2022 8:44 PM


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by Anonymousreply 212June 23, 2022 8:45 PM

R210 MM was also very self-destructive. Susan Strasberg said it was sad watching her parody herself singing to JFK, destroying her image of serious actress and become everything she wanted to escape in 1955.

She was also wildly insecure and had so much rejection she may have "regressed" to doing what she knew was popular.

Plus she looked amazing in the few weeks before she died, she may have seen it as her last hoorah. She would have made Something's Got To Give a huge hit, she was terrific in those few restored scenes.

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by Anonymousreply 213June 23, 2022 8:51 PM

Oh indeed Marilyn looks lovely and glamorous in Something got to give, the scenes from that movie are all eyecandy

by Anonymousreply 214June 23, 2022 8:58 PM

She looked great in her last few weeks. Sad thing was, she actually was really sick during filming, not pulling a stunt but little girl cried wolf.

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by Anonymousreply 215June 23, 2022 9:05 PM

R148 And why did they keep her employed for years? Because audiences loved her. And what do movie studios depend on for profits? Audiences.

Maybe you'd rather have seen Mitzi Gaynor in Some Like It Hot, but Wilder cast Marilyn when she became available. Ask yourself why. She's dead, nobody gives a shit now if she was late or not.

by Anonymousreply 216June 23, 2022 10:40 PM

[quote]had no problem during the filming of "Something's Got To Give" to show herself naked for the pool scene, i remember reading that it was her idea to do that.

And rightly so as her character had been on a desert island for five years. She would've swum nude. Just as her feet got bigger from not wearing shoes as stated in the scene with Wally Cox.

by Anonymousreply 217June 23, 2022 10:47 PM

And because she was an exhibitionist.

by Anonymousreply 218June 24, 2022 1:37 AM

*said with love

by Anonymousreply 219June 24, 2022 1:37 AM

Marilyn would love the phrase - We're all born naked and the rest is DRAG.

by Anonymousreply 220June 24, 2022 1:42 AM

Marilyn is like a riddle, wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in a bedsheet.

by Anonymousreply 221June 24, 2022 1:44 AM

^ a very dirty bedsheet

by Anonymousreply 222June 24, 2022 1:50 AM

[quote]MM was also very self-destructive. Susan Strasberg said it was sad watching her parody herself singing to JFK, destroying her image of serious actress and become everything she wanted to escape in 1955.

Strasberg was also self-destructive.

by Anonymousreply 223June 24, 2022 2:00 AM

Marilyn Monroe's gift was that the camera loved her. That was her talent: she photographed brilliantly. Louise Brooks and Garbo were the same way; they photographed like a dream.

by Anonymousreply 224June 24, 2022 2:01 AM

R203.. i take exception that taylor was a better actress than monroe... could taylor have done ANY of marilyn's roles besides maybe "the misfits'? NO!.. While I can see Monroe doing a number of taylor's films... so there you go...

by Anonymousreply 225June 24, 2022 2:07 AM

R224 James Dean was also very photogenic.

by Anonymousreply 226June 24, 2022 2:12 AM

I’d like to have seen Carla Gugino in After the Fall but nit so much Krause with his surfer dude act. She gets terrific reviews from NY theater critics. What has she been doing lately?

by Anonymousreply 227June 24, 2022 2:37 AM

Unfortunately this has turned into a thread about After The Fall

by Anonymousreply 228June 24, 2022 2:58 AM

Never seen, but the play is autobiographical and it is about their marriage.

Frank Langella wrote MM attempted suicide when she was married to Miller, this came from Miller who described how her suicide attempt was kept quiet and out of the press.

by Anonymousreply 229June 24, 2022 3:04 AM

The elite saw the same doctors. One doctor was famed for offering patients B12 vitamin injection that were in fact, methamphetamine. The Dr told them they were receiving vitamins and he didn't mention the meth. Meth as we know too well can cause physical dependence and cognitive decline. President Kennedy who was gravely ill more than once in his life, was a patient, Monroe was a patient, Dietrich was a patient, Capote was a patient.

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by Anonymousreply 230June 24, 2022 3:15 AM

Methamphetamine was not quite the same thing as "Meth." Duh. Meth is made from fertilizer and battery acid. But speed it was. Jackie Kennedy loved Dr. Jacobson shots the MOST! Long after everyone knew what it was.

Marilyn liked CNS depressants, because she was so anxious. So booze and barbiturates mostly. She did use uppers on the set of the Misfits. She was so knocked out most of the time from sedatives, that they applied her makeup for filming when she was still asleep.

But she rebounded from that as is obvious in the Let's Make Love footage and so many of her last year's photographs. She had her gallbladder removed and an operation for her endometriosis and she went on a diet and her version of a health kick. All the bloat and puffiness was gone from her. Though she looked terrible and very drunk the night she sang Happy Birthday Mister President. She never gave up champagne and sleeping pills. We all should have access to Nembutal - when the time comes.

Many people have attempted suicide. Takes guts to succeed. The Kennedys killed Marilyn, indirectly.

She saw Arthur Miller for what he really was long before she died. She wasn't mourning that marriage.

by Anonymousreply 231June 24, 2022 5:48 AM

[quote]R231 She saw Arthur Miller for what he really was…

Someone who didn’t want to share their life with an out of control addict? Please.

Get to some Alanon meetings.

by Anonymousreply 232June 24, 2022 7:42 AM

[quote] MM was also very self-destructive

Not self-destructive enough. We had to help her along.

by Anonymousreply 233June 24, 2022 8:06 AM

She OD'd by accident. Nothing courageous about this. She was a whore to fuck two married brothers, hon.

by Anonymousreply 234June 24, 2022 8:08 AM

At least she didn’t marry a gay man.

by Anonymousreply 235June 24, 2022 11:33 AM

A funny anecdote about Monroe which probably most here have already heard. Jack Lemmon said while filming 'Some Like It Hot' Billy Wilder warned both him and Tony Curtis that if Marilyn ever got a scene right he was printing it regardless of anything else.

by Anonymousreply 236June 24, 2022 12:13 PM

R231.. marilyn looked terrible the night she sang to JFK? she was stunning in actuality.... regardless of anyone's opinion on the actual performance, just looks wise she was a vision....

by Anonymousreply 237June 24, 2022 12:21 PM

R227 Gugino played the mother in Netflix Haunting of Hill House. Great, creepy performance. She was the only good thing about that sappy drama ( which had nothing to do with the brilliant Shirley Jackson novel it was named after).

by Anonymousreply 238June 24, 2022 3:06 PM

An interview with Miller from 1966:

“MILLER: I think Strasberg is a symptom, really. He’s a great force, and (in my unique opinion, evidently) a force that is not for the good in the theater. He makes actors secret people and he makes acting secret, and it’s the most communicative art known to man; I mean, that’s what the actor’s supposed to be doing … The problem is that the actor is now working out his private fate through his role, and the idea of communicating the meaning of the play is the last thing that occurs to him. In the Actors Studio, despite denials, the actor is told that the text is really the framework for his emotions … This is Method, as they are teaching it, which is, of course, a perversion of it, if you go back to the beginning. But there was always a tendency in that direction.

INTERVIEWER: What about Method acting in the movies?

MILLER: Well, in the movies, curiously enough, the Method works better. Because the camera can come right up to an actor’s nostrils and suck out of him a communicative gesture; a look in the eye, a wrinkle of his grin, and so on, which registers nothing on the stage.

INTERVIEWER: Do you think the push toward personal success dominates American life now more than it used to?

MILLER: I think it’s far more powerful today than when I wrote Death of a Salesman. I think it’s closer to a madness today than it was then. Now there’s no perspective on it at all.

INTERVIEWER: Would you say that the girl in After the Fall is a symbol of that obsession?

MILLER: Yes, she is consumed by what she does, and instead of it being a means of release, it’s a jail. A prison which defines her, finally. She can’t break through. In other words, success, instead of giving freedom of choice, becomes a way of life.

INTERVIEWER: Do you feel in the New York production that the girl allegedly based on Marilyn Monroe was out of proportion, entirely separate from Quentin?

MILLER: Yes, although I failed to foresee it myself. In the Italian production this never happened; it was always in proportion. I suppose, too, that by the time Zeffirelli did the play, the publicity shock had been absorbed, so that one could watch Quentin’s evolution without being distracted.

INTERVIEWER: What do you think happened in New York?

MILLER: Something I never thought could happen. The play was never judged as a play at all. Good or bad, I would never know what it was from what I read about it, only what it was supposed to have been.

INTERVIEWER: Because they all reacted as if it were simply a segment of your personal life?


INTERVIEWER: Could this question of timing have affected the reaction here to After the Fall?

MILLER: The ironic thing to me was that I heard cries of indignation from various people who had in the lifetime of Marilyn Monroe either exploited her unmercifully, in a way that would have subjected them to peonage laws, or mocked her viciously, or refused to take any of her pretensions seriously. So consequently, it was impossible to credit their sincerity.

INTERVIEWER: Was it the play, The Crucible itself, do you think, or was it perhaps that piece you did in the Nation—’A Modest Proposal’—that focused the Un-American Activities Committee on you?

MILLER: Well, I had made a lot of statements and I had signed a great many petitions. I’d been involved in organizations, you know, putting my name down for fifteen years before that. But I don’t think they ever would have bothered me if I hadn’t married Marilyn. Had they been interested, they would have called me earlier. And, in fact, I was told on good authority that the then chairman, Francis Walter, said that if Marilyn would take a photograph with him, shaking his hand, he would call off the whole thing. It’s as simple as that. Marilyn would get them on the front pages right away.”

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by Anonymousreply 239June 24, 2022 3:27 PM

R93, Interesting about that clip is her real voice came out when she was angry at the beginning where it sounded like it was a completely different person then it quickly went back into the soft, light feminine voice.

by Anonymousreply 240June 24, 2022 3:55 PM

Imagine the things Joe DiMaggio must have had to say about Miller.

by Anonymousreply 241June 28, 2022 4:56 PM

We would have loved to have serviced Miller's rumoured massive sizemeat!

by Anonymousreply 242June 28, 2022 5:08 PM

Like DiMaggio had any room to talk, about how he treated Marilyn, R241!

But it's not like any man could have saved her, or made her happy, because she wanted it all and in this life nobody gets it all. She wanted the devoted love of one man, she wanted the sexual attention of all men. She wanted a quiet life and a family, she wanted worldwide fame and stardom. She wanted to be loved for herself, she wanted to be worshipped for her image. All of those things are contradictory, and anyone who wants or needs two (or more) contradictory things is doomed to dissatisfaction.

by Anonymousreply 243June 29, 2022 12:49 AM

R243 Just meant I bet Joltin Joe had some choice words for his egghead successor. Wonder how Joe's big Italian salami stacked up to Miller's Jewish sizemeat?

by Anonymousreply 244June 29, 2022 2:42 AM

DiMaggio was violent with Marilyn and during the Seven Year Itch filming he BEAT her. That was the end of their marriage. He was insanely jealous. He obviously loved her or was obsessed with what could have been, because he remained a good friend and sometime lover to her until she died. DiMaggio lived another 45 years after their divorce and never married again.

by Anonymousreply 245June 29, 2022 3:00 AM

Master class acting. Miller must have heard these words at some point.

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by Anonymousreply 246June 29, 2022 3:05 AM

[quote] She wanted a quiet life and a family,

I don't think she was really capable of being a wife and mother or having a family. She could have had those things with DiMaggio or Miller, but she didn't seem to really want it. It's just as well that she never had children. She would have been a terrible mother.

by Anonymousreply 247June 29, 2022 4:37 AM

R247 I think she really wanted but she couldn't stay pregnant

by Anonymousreply 248June 29, 2022 12:01 PM

The male-dominated press of the early 1960's ripped Marilyn apart when Clark Gable died 9 days after The Misfits filming ended, as if it was all her fault because of her chronic lateness. Of course no one thought his lifetime of heavy smoking, drinking, and doing his own stunts in the hot desert sun had any impact, not to mention his severe depression from the death of his life-long best friend Ward Bond would have had impact....but such was the 1960's.

by Anonymousreply 249June 29, 2022 12:32 PM

Look at the spite and envy even certain other women felt toward her. I'd want to stay in bed for days, too.

Reporter: Marilyn, speaking of measurements, are they still the same as when you left? Have you gained weight? Have you lost weight? Marilyn: I think I'm about the same. Reporter: Nobody has any complaints? Marilyn: I don't know. Reporter: Speak up, boys.

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by Anonymousreply 250June 29, 2022 4:44 PM

R249 The entertainment press wasn't male dominated, it had Hedda Hopper, Lousella Parsons, Sheila Graham, Kendis Rochlen, and others who were extremely influential. If you mean the regular press, that was male dominated.

by Anonymousreply 251June 29, 2022 5:31 PM

Joe probably thought it wicked Miller exploited MM after her death with his one-sided play plus talking and writing about her. The kindest thing he did was stay silent about her.

by Anonymousreply 252June 29, 2022 6:01 PM

[quote]R249 The male-dominated press of the early 1960's ripped Marilyn apart when Clark Gable died 9 days after The Misfits filming ended, as if it was all her fault because of her chronic lateness.

Do you think her unprofessionalism, and drug addiction, that pushed the hard shoot so far over schedule EXTENDED his life??

by Anonymousreply 253June 29, 2022 7:52 PM

The marilyn hater is obsessed. Marilyn didn't kill anyone. She came into the world disadvantaged and unloved, was exploited and made fun of for most of her career and died tragically young. Individuals and industries are still making millions of dollars off her 60 years later. Her karmic debt was long ago paid.

She is the most famous face in the world, still.

by Anonymousreply 254June 29, 2022 8:00 PM

Judging from a shower photo, DiMaggio appeared to suffer from tinymeat.

by Anonymousreply 255June 29, 2022 8:07 PM

"The male-dominated press of the early 1960's ripped Marilyn apart when Clark Gable died 9 days after The Misfits filming ended, as if it was all her fault because of her chronic lateness."

I think Gable would have had some more years left to his life if he hadn't tried to make a movie with Marilyn Monroe. Although she later graciously invited Monroe to her baby's )a baby Gable never saw) christening, Gable's wife said that doing the Misfits "helped kill him," She went on:

It wasn't the physical exertion that did it. IT was the horrible tension, the eternal waiting, waiting, waiting. He waited around forever, for everybody. He'd get so angry, waiting, that he'd just go ahead and do anything ti keep occupied. That's why he did those awful horse scenes where they dragged him at twenty-five to thirty miles an hour behind a truck. He had a stand-in and a stunt man, but he did them himself. I told him "You're crazy", but he wouldn't listen."

by Anonymousreply 256June 29, 2022 10:45 PM

I'd be pretty bitter if I was left with the baby of a rich, old, famous man who just died.

Just saying.

by Anonymousreply 257June 29, 2022 11:39 PM

Clark's wife may have just been bitter Clark opted to be interned with his great love Carole Lombard. I made a thread on it 2 years ago..

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by Anonymousreply 258June 30, 2022 5:21 PM

[quote]R254 She came into the world disadvantaged and unloved, was exploited and made fun of for most of her career and died tragically young. Individuals and industries are still making millions of dollars off her 60 years later.

All that may be true, though it doesn’t mean she didn’t harm others in turn.

by Anonymousreply 259June 30, 2022 5:34 PM

[quote]R257 I'd be pretty bitter if I was left with the baby of a rich, old, famous man who just died. Just saying.

I might be delighted, depending on the size of the inheritance.

That kid would be sent off to the finest nursery school in the country that accepted boarders, pronto.

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by Anonymousreply 260June 30, 2022 5:39 PM

I hate all this “poor victim Marilyn, who never did anything wrong” crap. She was mistreated by many in her life, but that’s no excuse for not doing your job which you’re paid exorbitant amounts of money for!

Plenty of Hollywood stars had tragic backstories, Barbara Stanwyck, like MM, was sent from foster home to foster home in early 20th century NYC after her mom died when she was 4 and her dad disappeared after leaving to work on the Panama Canal shortly after. She dropped out of to school and worked odd jobs to completely support herself at age 14. She never behaved remotely as awful as Marilyn did on her movie sets.

by Anonymousreply 261June 30, 2022 5:40 PM

[quote]R261 Plenty of Hollywood stars had tragic backstories,

Clara Bow’s mother was schizophrenic. Bow awoke one night as a child and found her mom standing over her with a knife.

by Anonymousreply 262June 30, 2022 5:44 PM

What are your mental illness diagnoses, R262, R261, R256? The personality disorders alone! Along with being NUTS.

by Anonymousreply 263June 30, 2022 5:53 PM

It’s not nice to call MM “nuts”, r263.

Though she was institutionalized.

by Anonymousreply 264June 30, 2022 5:58 PM

^ NUTS ^

by Anonymousreply 265June 30, 2022 6:03 PM


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by Anonymousreply 266June 30, 2022 6:24 PM

R261 She supposedly suffered with terrible anxiety and was very insecure and hyper critical of her work, all of which often makes someone 'difficult' to work with.

Though she kept getting cast for some reason.

She doesn't sound much different from other actresses who wear the 'difficult' emblem, although she was also at times deliberately difficult, it was because she knew that the studios were playing her for a fool in regards to paying her proportionately to her co-stars.

After watching the Misfits and knowing the background between Monroe and Miller, just about every scene has a proverbial slap in the face. I don't know how she actually finished that film.

by Anonymousreply 267June 30, 2022 6:28 PM

[quote]DiMaggio was violent with Marilyn and during the Seven Year Itch filming he BEAT her.

Um, no he didn't. In fact, the day after she filmed the grate scene, she showed up at Philippe Halsman's studio and did a photoshoot in a black dress with spaghetti straps, including repeated jumping into the air for the photographer. If DiMaggio BEAT her, she wouldn't have been able to do so.

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by Anonymousreply 268June 30, 2022 6:33 PM

The make-up person on Seven Year Itch said she was bruised and needed a lot of cover up.

That movie saved her career as she fled Hollywood and broke her contract to go study at The Actors Studio, refusing to film some crappy movie where she was the bimbo. If TSYI hadn't been such a huge hit she might have not been welcomed back so warmly.

by Anonymousreply 269June 30, 2022 6:40 PM

The Misfits was such a dreary ass movie, I can never watch it. All of Arthur Miller's work is so depressing. Marilyn needed a Mike Todd to protect and spoil her, like what Liz had.

by Anonymousreply 270June 30, 2022 6:46 PM

Here's an article about Marilyn and DiMaggio. According to the writer, they still slept together after the divorce. DiMaggio never stopped trying to get back together with her.

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by Anonymousreply 271June 30, 2022 7:01 PM

For someone who reportedly wanted family so much, she wasn’t particularly close to her sister Bernice.

And how much did she leave this sister in her will, versus the Strasberg?

by Anonymousreply 272June 30, 2022 7:05 PM
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by Anonymousreply 273June 30, 2022 7:08 PM

Having suffered from terrible insecurities, deep depression and anxiety throughout my life I can only wonder that she got any movies made at all.

by Anonymousreply 274June 30, 2022 8:37 PM

How long were Taylor and Todd married, like, 2 years? And he didn't protect her like she was a goddess, they had knock down physical fights, sometimes around other people.

by Anonymousreply 275June 30, 2022 10:02 PM

"Marilyn needed a Mike Todd to protect and spoil her, like what Liz had."

Being spoiled and indulged would not have made her into a happy person, or affected her addictions or underlying mental illnesses. Frankly, if you spoil and indulge someone as unstable and contradictory as Marilyn, you become their enabler, not their rescuer.

Because like I keep saying, love doesn't save people from mental illness or addiction.

by Anonymousreply 276June 30, 2022 11:24 PM

[quote] How long were Taylor and Todd married, like, 2 years? And he didn't protect her like she was a goddess, they had knock down physical fights, sometimes around other people.

Mike Todd was the only one of Liz's husbands who was a match for her. They probably would have stayed married forever if he hadn't gotten killed. When asked for a run down of the suitability of Liz's previous husbands Burton said the Todd was "Perfect, but he's dead."

by Anonymousreply 277July 1, 2022 2:25 AM

What a fucking idiot you are R277. You're full of ancient gossip and dumb tropes. Liz Taylor was a whore and a greedy pig. A much worse alcoholic than Marilyn Monroe. And a coke head and pill addict. Of course she said that she would have stayed with Mike Todd forever - because he conveniently died before she totally bankrupted him. She grieved for 3 months before fucking men over again. Taylor destroyed all the men who didn't leave her. Almost all of them beat her- because she liked to provoke that. Liz liked it rough. NO one was lower class than Elizabeth Taylor. Tacky woman.

by Anonymousreply 278July 1, 2022 2:55 AM

Liz to Hedda Hopper: “Mike’s dead and I’m alive. What do you expect me to do… sleep ALONE??”

Why, yes. Yes, we do.

Is a year asking too much?

by Anonymousreply 279July 1, 2022 6:01 AM

R256 her being late to set killed him? C’mon…

by Anonymousreply 280July 1, 2022 10:33 AM

Well, he never said anything to me about it anyway.

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by Anonymousreply 281July 1, 2022 10:51 AM

The Strasbergs seem to get a lot of flack from Marilyn fans, as well as any director, (Cukor, Wilder, Olivier) who allegedly mistreated her, yet her fans will make endless excuses for her poor treatment of others... the go-to being "she had a poor childhood." As if there aren't millions of people who have had terrible upbringings, some even worse than Marilyn, but they don't use it as a crutch or a weapon to elicit sympathy.

by Anonymousreply 282July 1, 2022 1:04 PM

Only dumb Marilyn fraus hate on Cukor and Wilder et al for wanting an actress to do her damn job. Many, many Hollywood stars during the golden age from broken homes and low class backgrounds not just because of poverty but because of factors like both World Wars.

The Strasbergs do genuinely seem exploitative and probably changed her career for the worse. She wasn’t a smart enough person or a good enough actress to utilize the “method” properly. Ellen Burstyn studied under Strasberg (and she had - gasp - grown up in poverty with a mentally ill mother) and did fine.

by Anonymousreply 283July 1, 2022 1:35 PM

[quote]What exactly happened between Arthur MiIler and Marilyn Monroe?


by Anonymousreply 284July 1, 2022 1:36 PM

Like the Method is rocket science.

by Anonymousreply 285July 1, 2022 6:19 PM

[quote] her being late to set killed him? C’mon…

As any actor will tell it's not a pleasant thing to be waiting around on a movie set. It's stressful. There's always a certain amount of waiting around for various reasons but just waiting around for an actor to to grace the director, cast and crew with his or her presence is maddening. And Gable had to wait around in 120 degree weather. No doubt making that movie made his blood pressure go way, way up.

Billy Wilder said this about his experience making "Some Like It Hot" with Marilyn Monroe:

"She was never on time once. It is a terrible thing for an acting company, the director, the cameraman. You sit there and wait. You can't start without her. Thousands of dollars you see going into the hole. You can always figure a Monroe picture runs an extra few hundred thousand because she's coming late. It demoralizes the whole company. It's like trench warfare. You sit and sit, waiting for something to happen. When are the shells going to explode?"

by Anonymousreply 286July 1, 2022 8:52 PM

The OLD waitress is so adorable.

by Anonymousreply 287July 1, 2022 8:54 PM

R286 Marilyn was once eight hours late while making Misfits.

by Anonymousreply 288July 1, 2022 8:58 PM

Clark Gable had at least FOUR heart attacks. He lived a totally unhealthy and destructive life. A late actress didn't kill him.

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by Anonymousreply 289July 1, 2022 9:07 PM

Wilder also said he had an aunt who is always on time, but no one will pay to see her in a movie.

by Anonymousreply 290July 1, 2022 9:16 PM

Oh, good grief. He was meaner than a snake to her during The Misfits. I saw it with my own eyes. She cowered when she saw him. He had one emotion on that set - pissed off. I was just a girl, but I disliked him immediately and wanted to protect her from him. He was just nasty.

I spent several days with/around her. She was on the set each morning, but was what today's medical world would describe - she had horrible anxiety. And yes she spoke in a regular voice. And was very caring.

I'm glad there are tapes showing the other side of her. That side is who I met. She didn't want to be just a sex goddess but that's all that Hollywood wanted from her.

by Anonymousreply 291July 1, 2022 9:30 PM

R291 I love your posts, but your Arthur Miller bashing is a bit cringe. I get that Marilyn was probably a very kind person to you - she seemed to adore kids - but I doubt you were able to discern a man's character or the nature of a long term relationship from a handful of strained interactions when their marriage was falling apart...

by Anonymousreply 292July 1, 2022 10:16 PM

[quote]The make-up person on Seven Year Itch said she was bruised and needed a lot of cover up.

Marilyn's make-up artist WAS A MAN. Whitey Snyder. He was makeup artist throughout her career: from her first screen test at Twentieth Century Fox in 1946 to her funeral makeup in 1962. He NEVER said such a thing.

FUN FACT: He was also the lead make-up artist on Little House on the Prarie.

by Anonymousreply 293July 1, 2022 11:02 PM

Many people have gone on record that DiMaggio exploded with jealousy and rage and beat Marilyn up the night of her filming the subway blowing her skirt up scene in Manhattan. In their hotel room. That WAS the end of their marriage.

STFU R293.

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by Anonymousreply 294July 1, 2022 11:10 PM

Joe DiMaggio asked Whitey Snyder to make up Marilyn's corpse for her funeral. He did, but he had to fortify himself with a few belts before doing it. Many years before she had asked him if anything happened to her (like dying) would he do her makeup? He said, trying to lighten the situation (it was a rather morbid request), " "Sure, bring the body back while it is still warm and I'll do it." Soon after she gave him a gold money clip engraved "Whitey Dear:/ While I'm still warm/ Marilyn." The clip was auctioned off in 2012. It's estimate was $6000 to $8000. It sold for $21, 250.

by Anonymousreply 295July 2, 2022 12:51 AM

[quote]R288 Marilyn was once eight hours late while making Misfits.

Then wasn’t she carted off to rehab, and everyone had to hang around, waiting for her to dry the fuck out?

by Anonymousreply 296July 2, 2022 2:08 AM

John Houston was missing as much from the Misfits as Marilyn. His drinking and gambling were of far more interest to him than the film.

And it wasn't called rehab back in 1960 you fucking idiot. Marilyn was messed up, but Garland was a MONSTER. Not only did JUDY never show up - she destroyed her children, never even tried to perform well and didn't give a rusty fuck who her total self indulgent WET BRAIN personality destroyed along the way. She was morally and personally bankrupt. A fucking delusional loser.

Monroe did dry out and get much better. More than once. She wasn't an addict like Houston or Garland or Whitney. She was addicted. Monroe's sharp intelligence and wit never left her. She strived to be a better person and actress.❤

by Anonymousreply 297July 2, 2022 2:19 AM

[quote]Many people have gone on record that DiMaggio exploded with jealousy and rage and beat Marilyn up the night of her filming the subway blowing her skirt up scene in Manhattan.

Well then, I'm sure you won't mind listing a few since you seem to be so knowledgeable. Take your time.

by Anonymousreply 298July 2, 2022 2:25 AM

Well, I was just going to drop by, read the first couple of posts and then be on my merry way but I spent the last hour or so devouring this thread.

I loved them all.

by Anonymousreply 299July 2, 2022 3:47 AM

MM’s problem was she needed more [italic]hard dicks[/italic] spraying all her holes daily.

Oh, wait…

by Anonymousreply 300July 2, 2022 4:13 AM

"He was meaner than a snake to her during The Misfits. I saw it with my own eyes. She cowered when she saw him."

Misfit girl, do you think you could tell the difference between someone being mean, or someone being fed up? Or someone being mean, and someone who was calling someone on their shit? I mean, I have difficulties with these distinctions as an adult, if I don't know the people involved well.

That's the thing about Marilyn, she could be incredibly kind and sweet, and she could try people beyond endurance. And when the latter happened, she'd run to someone else, and get them to protect her from the meanie...

by Anonymousreply 301July 2, 2022 6:22 AM

The person who actually saw Marilyn and Arthur interacting with each other knows more about how they interacted than anyone else on this thread does. That's a simple fact.

by Anonymousreply 302July 2, 2022 6:27 AM

[quote]Gable had to wait around in 120 degree weather. No doubt making that movie made his blood pressure go way, way up.

What made his blood pressure rise was his choice to spend his down time doing stunts for the 2nd unit crew. He knew he had health problems when he made that choice. Just because a co-worker is late, doesn't mean you're forced to do things that would harm your health, and it doesn't make it the co-worker's fault.

by Anonymousreply 303July 2, 2022 6:30 AM

[quote]Not only did JUDY never show up - she destroyed her children, never even tried to perform well

Wow, she was only one of the greatest performers of all time - imagine if she HAD tried to perform well?

by Anonymousreply 304July 2, 2022 1:36 PM

Clark Gable was the top-billed star of The Misfits. Isn't it obvious that Monroe was severely holding up production, and that this would have a negative impact on everyone involved? ? I mean, thinkn about it - her next film was never even finished. It was entirely due to her.

She made this production a nightmare. In the documentary above, listen to what Kevin McCarthy says about theire short scene together. I love her, I think she was great - but you can't deny facts. Gable had a professional stake in the film so the idea that he wouldn't be stressed out is stupid. Not saying she helped kill him with her unprofessional, erratic behavior, but who knows? It's not unreasonable to think it contributed.

by Anonymousreply 305July 2, 2022 3:46 PM

It's not like Gable was a good guy. He did what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it, whether it caused pain to others or not. He was like Jack Nicholson and Ryan O'Neal and all of the other men who came after him who used their charm and looks to deflect from their awful behavior.

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by Anonymousreply 306July 2, 2022 4:18 PM

Everything I've read said that Gable was kind, sympathetic, and patient with Monroe, during filming. He wasn't the nicest man who ever lived or the most acute, but if he knew that she spent her miserable childhood pretending that he was her dad, then maybe he realized that if he lost his temper with her, she'd have a complete breakdown.

It's ridiculous to blame her for his death, but so many commentators who write about the making of "The Misfits" to, directly or indirectly. The man had had three heart attacks already, after a life of cigs, booze, and red meat, and it's silly to blame Marilyn for stressing him a bit when he'd abused his body for years, and when everyone else on the set was behaving badly as well. Co-star Montgomery Clift was hammered most of the time, director John Houston was always an asshole, Arthur Miller was there and giving Marilyn trouble, they were in fucking Reno, which is FYI the last filthy hair on the asshole of the universe! But there are people out there who always want to find a woman to blame (they're all over the Datalounge), and in this scenario they chose Marilyn.

by Anonymousreply 307July 2, 2022 4:37 PM

Thank you R307. What you described is how I remember it. Monty and his bottle of whiskey, Clark Gable calmly staying away from everyone in the shade, John Huston busy yelling into a megaphone, all red faced and hot. Arthur Miller snarling at everybody. And that first day I met her - Marilyn sitting in a chair, under a huge tree, in somebody's back yard, going over her script over and over again. That's when she called to me to come over and talk to her.

And when she was ready, Monty would be too drunk.

Not easy for anybody.

by Anonymousreply 308July 2, 2022 4:54 PM

Then you had Thelma Ritter scampering about commando, flapping her skirt and her withered beef curtains up at everyone - - to no avail.

by Anonymousreply 309July 2, 2022 5:46 PM

Marilyn's last movie (Something's Got to Give) was unfinished because she died. Just days before, Fox rehired her with a substantial pay raise and agreed to can (director) George Cukor. She won; she won her biggest fight. And then she lost.

by Anonymousreply 310July 2, 2022 7:59 PM

[quote] It's not like Gable was a good guy.

Obviously you know nothing, absolutely nothing, about Clark Gable. Men liked him. Women adored him. Arthur Miller called him "the man who did not know how to hate." And you believe that stupid date-rape story? Clark Gable and Loretta Young had a hot affair on the set of "Call of the Wild." She and Gable were so intensely involved that it interfered with filming, so said the director. The date rape story comes from relatives of Loretta Young's and it did not come out until ALL of the principles involved (Gable, Young and their love child) were dead. They're heavily invested in portraying Loretta Young as a sweet, virginal (hah!) Catholic girl who would NEVER have had willing sex with the premier male sex symbol of his time Clark Gable, a man who was irresistible to women. Yeah, right!

“I never met anyone who didn't like Clark Gable,” director Mervyn LeRoy once said. “He was a great individual, a great citizen, and was admired by all who knew him.

by Anonymousreply 311July 3, 2022 1:00 AM

R302 How does it make sense to get a read on a long term relationship from handful of interactions at the end of it? It's like me saying I know everything about the couple I heard fighting next to me in line at Starbucks for ten minutes.

I don't doubt Misfit Girl was in fact there, met Marilyn, and witnessed arguments and tensions between AM and MM, but she seems to have enjoyed her poetic embellishment of the same story over the years (I have read her posts for the past decade or so she's been posting them) and casting MM as some kind beautiful tragic goddess figure like Elton John immortally did for the worse.

She wasn't anything extremely special in the grand realm of Big Hollywood Stars, she's just been marketed to death by the Strasberg leeches and deified due to her early grave. If she died when she was older and faded, like Rita or Ava, she'd be remembered the same way as those two - iconic, but not THE icon.

by Anonymousreply 312July 3, 2022 1:06 AM

What we can’t get around is that in The Misfits, Marilyn was FAT.

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by Anonymousreply 313July 3, 2022 5:01 AM

[quote] What we can’t get around is that in The Misfits, Marilyn was FAT.

She did not look her best in that movie. She looked bloated, unwell. She was addicted to pills and was in a bad state mentally. And those wigs! The wigs she wore in the Misfits were some of the worst I've ever seen in a movie. They looked totally artificial. I guess her real hair would have wilted in the heat, but God those wigs were pitiful.

by Anonymousreply 314July 3, 2022 5:28 AM

[quote]Marilyn's last movie (Something's Got to Give) was unfinished because she died. Just days before, Fox rehired her with a substantial pay raise and agreed to can (director) George Cukor. She won; she won her biggest fight. And then she lost.

Yes all that is technically true but she had already caused big delays - and if Dean Martin had agreed to Fox's choice, Lee Remick, as her replacement, the movie would have continued without her.

[quote]She did not look her best in that movie. She looked bloated, unwell. She was addicted to pills and was in a bad state mentally. And those wigs!

I thought she looked good, very pretty. Her body looked great. Better than in Some Like It Hot (much thinner). I didn't really notice she wore wigs until I noticed it in color stills taken on the set. Now I'm very aware of it, but I don't think they look terrible, just not as good as real hair.

by Anonymousreply 315July 3, 2022 5:34 AM

Joe D'maggio loved her. Too bad they couldn't have made it a further go.

by Anonymousreply 316July 3, 2022 5:39 AM

DiMaggio and Miller were close in age, born in 1914 and 1915. Marilyn was born in 1926. Her first husband, James Daugherty, was born in 1921. So even though people have suggested Marilyn was looking for a father figure in her husbands, I don't really see it. The oldest one was only 12 years older than her, which isn't that much.

by Anonymousreply 317July 3, 2022 5:56 AM

[quote] Joe D'maggio loved her. Too bad they couldn't have made it a further go.

Donald Spoto, in his worshipful biography of MM, said that she and DiMaggio were going to be remarried. I find that hard to believe. Their marriage didn't work the first time, how could it have worked the second time?

[quote] have suggested Marilyn was looking for a father figure in her husbands, I don't really see it.

She didn't have a choice with her first husband. She was "married off" to him keep from going back into an orphanage. I think a 12 year age difference is rather substantial. And she did look for Daddy substitutes. She called Miller "Poppy." Two of her important lovers, Nicholas Schenck and Johnny Hyde, were both thirty something years older than her. She'd have sex with just about anybody, but she definitely preferred older men.

by Anonymousreply 318July 3, 2022 6:16 AM

[quote]I think a 12 year age difference is rather substantial.

Not unless the people dating are giving a lot of thought to age. Marilyn married DiMaggio when she was 28 and he was 40, Miller when she was 30 and he was 41. Men are still young, virile and attractive at 40 so I don't think it makes the man noticeably "older". Miller was a little old looking but DiMaggio still looked young.

by Anonymousreply 319July 3, 2022 6:33 AM

[quote]For someone who reportedly wanted family so much, she wasn’t particularly close to her sister Bernice.

You should read My Sister Marilyn. And Bernice is still alive. She and her daughter Mona now live in North Carolina I believe.

by Anonymousreply 320July 3, 2022 1:50 PM

[quote] I didn't really notice she wore wigs until I noticed it in color stills taken on the set.

Nope, that was Monroe's own hair. It was so over processed that they had to use a wig (from the Misfits) for her funeral.

by Anonymousreply 321July 3, 2022 1:52 PM

R321 What was Marilyn's own hair? Maybe I wasn't clear, I meant I saw stills of her in the wig. In scenes from the film that were shot on set or on location. In costume.

by Anonymousreply 322July 3, 2022 4:47 PM

R322 is talking about MM's wig on The Misfits. As someone mentioned, that awful heat meant they couldn't style her own hair. Her natural hair was OK when she died but her makeup man was too upset to spend ages styling it.

If you see her final pics on the beach her hair was looking fine.

by Anonymousreply 323July 3, 2022 5:29 PM

Another interesting fact about The Misfits is that it's filmed in sequence. Nobody does that. But Miller insisted, so he could have some control. As a playwright, he thought linearly and couldn't fathom filming any other way. By being in sequence, you can watch Monroe disintegrate. She starts out rested, hopeful, and by the end, after she's been scapegoated by all the men to be the film's rotten core, she is bloated and sad. (Misfit Girl, are you related to Frank Taylor?)

by Anonymousreply 324July 4, 2022 7:33 PM

Not everyone adored Clark Gable.

by Anonymousreply 325July 4, 2022 8:03 PM


Seriously, his character is named Gaylord Langland, and everyone addresses him as "Gay".

by Anonymousreply 326July 4, 2022 8:05 PM

[quote][R321] What was Marilyn's own hair? Maybe I wasn't clear, I meant I saw stills of her in the wig. In scenes from the film that were shot on set or on location. In costume.

As SGTG was the only film mentioned in the comment R322, I didn't realize the second quote was in reference to The Misfits, in which she did wear wigs.

[quote]Her natural hair was OK when she died but her makeup man was too upset to spend ages styling it.

Whitey never did Marilyn's hair. Agnes Flannigan was her hairdresser (pictured below prepping Monroe for her George Barris photoshoot in the Summer of 62. In fact, Agnes and Whitey got married. Sidney Guilaroff was supposed to do her hair but fainted at the sight of her corpse, hence the Misfits wig.

by Anonymousreply 327July 5, 2022 3:02 PM


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by Anonymousreply 328July 5, 2022 3:03 PM

[quote]r327 Sidney Guilaroff was supposed to do her hair but fainted at the sight of her corpse


by Anonymousreply 329July 5, 2022 3:43 PM

I met Guilaroff one or two years before his death at one of the annual memorial services they hold for Marilyn on August 5th.

by Anonymousreply 330July 5, 2022 3:48 PM

Boy, Marilyn looks almost dead in the pic at R328.

I heard that one of the policemen at the scene at Marilyn death said her hair was terrible "all burnt up from all those treatments." Maybe that's why a wig was used when getting her body ready for her funeral; her hair was in such bad shape it was a lost cause.

A wig from "The Misfits" was supposedly used to cover her hair. Ralph Greenson's (he was her weird psychiatrist) daughter was at the funeral. She said that when the casket lid was lifted for a final viewing "a shock of yellow hair popped out. I couldn't bear to look."


by Anonymousreply 331July 5, 2022 11:01 PM

Marilyn's death photo is on the internet, R331. I don't think I'm going to post it.

I will post how messed up she looked when she was with Sinatra in the last months of her life. I think she really did get raped at Cal Neva Lodge. Not that he set it up though.

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by Anonymousreply 332July 5, 2022 11:10 PM

With Lawford and Sinatra - some party girls. I wonder if the Kennedy brothers were there this night?

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by Anonymousreply 333July 5, 2022 11:18 PM

When the lockdown started one of the distractions I indulged in was watching YT video interviews with women who knew Marilyn. It is extraordinary that many women had nothing but good things to say about Marilyn. They saw her vulnerability and innocence and instead of hating her for being who she was many felt protective over her. It seems she possessed authentic innocence and at the same time also was very ambitious and desperately wanted stardom. A deadly combination without someone you can trust to have your back when you need it.

by Anonymousreply 334July 5, 2022 11:27 PM

[quote]Donald Spoto, in his worshipful biography of MM, said that she and DiMaggio were going to be remarried. I find that hard to believe. Their marriage didn't work the first time, how could it have worked the second time?

It didn't work out the first time because DiMaggio was insanely jealous and possessive and it drove Marilyn away from him. You can't be an actress and have a husband that freaks out about you being around other people.

by Anonymousreply 335July 5, 2022 11:32 PM

I don't think Marilyn would have remarried DiMaggio. But they were lovers again after her marriage ended with Miller. And he was a good friend to her when she was hospitalized and at many other turns that we shall never hear about. But as we know, Marilyn had other men too. Story goes is that Joe kind of bored her and that he was far too possessive.

They try not to be seen together here during a trip they took to Florida in 1961. It's very tabloidy - but a great photo. She looks so simple and chic. He's looks both powerful and elegant.

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by Anonymousreply 336July 5, 2022 11:41 PM

"It seems she possessed authentic innocence and at the same time also was very ambitious and desperately wanted stardom."

Given her history, Marilyn can't have been genuinely innocent. Nobody who's been abandoned and allegedly raped as a child and sexually harassed on the job for years is innocent.

But if she was genuinely sweet and likable in spite of all that, that's really impressive! Most people who've been through that kind of hell get mean and bitter, but Marilyn didn't.

by Anonymousreply 337July 5, 2022 11:47 PM

He fucked her, hard and often. Probably in the ass sometimes. He made her look him in the eye as she gagged on his huge cock. made her thank him as he came all over her fucking face. Then he would slap her.

by Anonymousreply 338July 5, 2022 11:54 PM

^^ yes. She gave an interview to Look magazine about that once!

by Anonymousreply 339July 6, 2022 12:10 AM

Mitzi got Marilyn.

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by Anonymousreply 340July 6, 2022 12:42 AM

Uh, no. R336.

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by Anonymousreply 341July 6, 2022 12:57 AM

Nothing you posted disputes what I said R341. Uh, no is such a teenage girl kind of response. I doubt that you are a teenager. Or even under 75.

In the photo I posted, Marilyn and DiMaggio did not want to be photographed. The body language speaks for itself.

Marilyn was bored with DiMaggio, outside of the bedroom. But he remained a champion for her. For the rest of his life.

by Anonymousreply 342July 6, 2022 1:28 AM

I read something about Marilyn being on drugs and throwing up at Cal-Neva, Pat Lawford feeling sorry for her and trying to help her. I thought Sinatra had her come there to rest. Never heard about rape.

by Anonymousreply 343July 6, 2022 1:39 AM

Your comment R337/R342 was this

[quote]They try not to be seen together here during a trip they took to Florida in 1961.

I simply posted a nice selection of photographs of them at the beach, going out to dinner and Monroe watching the Yankees Spring Training which disprove your statement.

by Anonymousreply 344July 6, 2022 1:47 AM

I'd also like to know when Marilyn contacted you on your Ouija Board to tell you she was bored with DiMaggio in bed.

by Anonymousreply 345July 6, 2022 1:48 AM

What about the word 'here' do you not understand? R344. As "in this instance". That particular photo. They did not want to be photographed. She looks distressed and he looks pissed. Everyone has seen those Florida pictures before. Marilyn couldn't do much in secret.

Yikes. Don't mess with me old man. You can't even reference the correct posts. Too many accounts open at once?

The quotes about Marilyn being bored with Dimaggio are in many of her biographies. Read one. Attributed. She loved his body and enjoyed the sex - but he did not inspire her in any way. And when they were married, he expected her to stay home and cook spaghetti.! They didn't have much in common. Dimaggio did not stimulate her enough to be a life partner. If Monroe wanted to get back with him - she had every opportunity.

by Anonymousreply 346July 6, 2022 2:07 AM

Omg girls take it outside

by Anonymousreply 347July 6, 2022 2:10 AM

Sex was not Marilyn and DiMaggio's problem. She said "If that was all there was to it we'd still be married."

by Anonymousreply 348July 6, 2022 2:24 AM

[quote]You can't even reference the correct posts.

And you can't spell DiMaggio correctly.

by Anonymousreply 349July 6, 2022 2:35 AM

R347 IS R344. He's famous for pretending to be two or three or more posters on one thread. Talks to himself. So when R347 says "take it outside girls" when I best him and prove him wrong, it's in the same dumb teenage girl speak of R341. He is NOT an outsider to our conflict. It's all the same messy old man.

The majority of the posts on this thread are from ONE poster with several DL accounts.

He takes on more than one point of view - but never directly strays from his inherent premise. SAD. LONELY. CRAZY.

by Anonymousreply 350July 6, 2022 2:36 AM

Funny what someone said about the hot sex as I read she faked every orgasm she ever had and really had no interest in sex . Due to her sad past. That she slept with both men and women but it was about pleasing others and not herself. I also read she was in love with her female acting coach.

by Anonymousreply 351July 6, 2022 2:38 AM

How would anyone know though if she was faking every orgasm she ever had?

by Anonymousreply 352July 6, 2022 3:57 AM

R352 it was supposedly on those tapes her therapist made.

But those have always been a bit dodgy.

by Anonymousreply 353July 6, 2022 4:01 AM

Wow. Well that’s interesting to read. I had no idea of such tapes. Dodgy though, huh.

by Anonymousreply 354July 6, 2022 4:05 AM

R354 your obvious sarcasm is poorly done and you sound like an asshole.

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by Anonymousreply 355July 6, 2022 4:25 AM

Is it true MM had sex with Lili St. Cyr? And that she went muff diving on the Lytess woman?

by Anonymousreply 356July 6, 2022 6:50 AM
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