The Revisionism of Frances McDormand

She was widely hailed as an excellent actress after Fargo, which she won the Best Actress Oscar for in the 90s. This post seems more revisionist than anything.

in this age, that just means they can't believe she's famous because she's so homely looking... it's brave and stunning, surely, she must be the greatest living actor of our time.

She was widely hailed as a GOOD actress after Fargo, with the fact she didn't really follow-up it up with much after that being conventional wisdom as late as 2016.

Splitting hairs about a VOGUE puff piece and wikipedia? OP you have too much time on your hands.

I don't care for her performance Fargo anyway.

It's more like Tina Fey's Sarah Palin than Julianne Moore's. Comedy doesn't work when the people doing it are making it clear to the audience that they're in on the joke.

[quote] It's more like Tina Fey's Sarah Palin

What on earth? Her Fargo character is nothing like Sarah Palin, or some kind of broad satire. It’s the subtlety of the performance that made it so memorable.

Here's an idea. Just start a thread about her being overrated and that you don't like her! KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.

Why stretch your lowbrow mind with such a convoluted and botched set up, OP?

Margie Gunderson is an ALL TIMER, one of the best Oscar wins ever - funny and warm and human, every single line and delivery quotable - she only shows up halfway into the movie but she's all you think of when you think of Fargo.

[quote] Why stretch your lowbrow mind with such a convoluted and botched set up, OP?

I'm specifically interested in the revisionism of late.

If she was just a bad actress that would not be remarkable.

I still think about Marge’s last little speech in the police car at the end of the film, especially with all the corruption and money-grubbing of the Trump Admin. Perfectly-acted role.

Digging in never goes well, OP.

Any other actresses it happened with?

Katherine Hepburn is the only one that springs to mind. Her reputation coming AFTER her Oscar wins.

Frances One Note is so fucking smug you just want to head for the wood chipper.

How is OP's thread like Oakland, California?

She also (along with Phillip Seymour Hoffman) stole the show in Almost Famous even with a bit part. She was in very high-quality films like Blood Simple, Raising Arizona, and Mississippi Burning in the 80s. She’s been a consistently great actress for decades.

[quote]She’s been a consistently great actress for decades.

Perhaps. But never regarded as such until recently.

r3 is just false. She was an established actress with a lot of recognition, positive critical acclaim, and a lot of awards and nominations between Fargo and Three Billboards.

Can anyone find a single DL thread from 2016 or earlier with someone describing her as one of the greatest actresses of all time?

I think you'd sooner find something saying that about Netty Bening.

I don't know what the point of this shit is, where someone makes something up and then doubles down and triples down about it.

I'm tired of fuckheads like OP using DL to try to force people to pay attention to him, because no one else will do it.

Yes, R17.

Regarded as good actress, but not one of the greatest.

[quote] But never regarded as such until recently.

OP, you can try as hard as you can, but the Oscar for Fargo 25 years ago punctures the claim that she wasn’t regarded as a great actress until “recently.”

No, it doesn't.

She was at Yale School of Drama with Kate Burton, Jane Kaczmarek, Patty Clarkson and Laila Robins and they were all expected to be the next Meryl Streep. But only Fran has gotten there.

She and Jane Kaczmarek remind me of each other actually.

“'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.”

[quote] “'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.”

A good quote for Hepburn, who managed to retain and gain critical respectability as her more talented peers did TV and horror movies.

But I wonder why McDormand of all people came out on top in her age range.

It seems to be just luck.

H'wood admires her no-BS attitude and wish they could be less phony, although I personally think her "no-BS attitude" has become as much of a posture, a character she's playing, as with any of them. It sets her apart from the pack

[quote] Can anyone find a single DL thread from 2016 or earlier with someone describing her as one of the greatest actresses of all time?

Yes, because always use DL musings as the barometer of good artistic/aesthetic tastes. Now, if I needed an opinion on potato cash bars or whether to drain pasta, that would be a different story...

[quote]Yes, because always use DL musings as the barometer of good artistic/aesthetic tastes.

Then ANY other source you prefer.

Shitting in a bucket put her over the top as a legendary actress.

Here is the full context of what OP says about Wikipedia/Vogue:

[quote]Vogue remarked how she is "long considered one of our greatest living performers" and continues mentioning that "she grounds every performance with an innate truthfulness. McDormand makes you believe every person she plays is a flesh-and-blood human who continues living out their life once the cameras stop rolling.

There isn’t anything revisionist about that, OP; the Wikipedia citation links to a 2021 Vogue article about her 10 greatest roles, this is the opening sentence:

[quote]On paper and in almost every other conceivable way, Frances McDormand is a movie star. Long considered one of our greatest living performers, she’s nabbed six Oscar nominations and two wins across her four-decade career.

If by "long-considered" you mean for about a year...

[quote]there was hardly any great praise directed towards her

Yes there was, maybe not collectively but look at reviews for each role individually and you'll see it. I think a key reason for the lack of great praise across the board is she didn’t want it and didn’t care and but social media has changed that and chooses to shine a spotlight on people who were never seeking accolades.

[quote]McDormand went to Bethany College, a small Disciples of Christ school in West Virginia. The head of the theatre department told her that she should go on to Yale Drama School, and there she spent three years preparing for a career in classical theatre... She became a character actor. In interviews, she spoke proudly of that calling. Character roles, she said, were generally better written than starring roles. Also, they offered longevity. Glamour girls are here today, gone tomorrow, but the flatshoe types can still get work in their fifties. McDormand seems to have decided that character acting was an outpost of professionalism in what was otherwise the fatuous world of filmmaking.

[quote]Yes there was, maybe not collectively but look at reviews for each role individually and you'll see it.

Possibly.

She was also nominated for Best Supporting Actress all the way back in 1989 for Mississippi Burning, meaning she's been nominated for an Oscar in every decade of the last five decades

Some people can't understood the distinction between good and greatest.

February 2021:

[quote]This is the tricky thing about how persuasively McDormand embodies her characters: You think you know her because you’re certain you know them. Whether it’s kindhearted Marge from “Fargo,” tetchy Olive from “Olive Kitteridge,” or bohemian Jane in “Laurel Canyon,” McDormand specializes in playing women with worldviews. You can tell right away what they like and don’t like, who they would be friendly with and who they can’t stand.

[...]

[quote]Since she rarely grants interviews, most people only see the real McDormand blazing an iconoclastic streak through televised awards shows, where she is barefaced instead of Botoxed and once wore her own jean jacket in lieu of borrowed couture. (In Hollywood, this mild noncompliance is tantamount to a declaration of war.)

[...]

[quote]She had married Coen not long after making her screen debut in the 1984 noir “Blood Simple,” which he directed with Ethan. Twelve years later, the Coen brothers would give McDormand her signature role, one that could only be played by a woman: Marge, the chirpy, pregnant police chief in “Fargo.”

[quote][bold]That film made her famous, a condition that McDormand considered a fire to be stomped out: After hiring a publicist, she almost immediately instructed him to turn down most requests.[/bold]

[quote]“I made a very conscious effort not to do press and publicity for 10 years in what other people would think would be a very dangerous moment in a female actor’s career, but it paid off for exactly the reasons I wanted it to,” she said. “It gave me a mystery back to who I was, and then in the roles I performed, I could take an audience to a place where someone who sold watches or perfume and magazines couldn’t.”

Can you find any PRE-2017 source calling her one of the greatest actresses ever?

Why are you feeding this troll? He opened with an effective trolling statement and you all took the bait. You have been bested by a ridiculous troll.

[quote] I don't care for her performance Fargo anyway. It's more like Tina Fey's Sarah Palin than Julianne Moore's. Comedy doesn't work when the people doing it are making it clear to the audience that they're in on the joke.

I disagree. Yes, it's comedic. But I think she (McDormand) took the character seriously.

Fargo is one of my favorite movies & I think Marge was an unexpected hero.

[quote] H'wood admires her no-BS attitude and wish they could be less phony

Disagree with this. Hollywood loves a BS, go-along-to-get-along attitude. That's what keeps things going.

I remember when she was in Mississippi Burning and Mike Nichols said she would be the greatest of her generation. Her trajectory was not as direct as Meryl's but she got there.

I suppose it's here to stay.

It came all at once though... over the last couple of years.

She followed Hepburn's trajectory; Streep followed Davis'.

Her husband and brother-in-law are worshipped by film geek types. Just by being in so many of their movies, she's been elevated by film geeks.

Thank you for a good point, R44.

In a thread filled with too many people who need to re-read R36.

R44 As a Coen fan, she's not a significant part of most of the Coen Brothers best movies. Fargo and Blood simple, yes, but not The Big Lebowski, Miller's Crossing, No Country For Old Men, A Serious Man, O Brother Where Art Thou?, Barton Fink, or Inside Llewyn Davis.

She's a good actress, but I agree that she wasn't seen as one of the Greats until very recently. I don't agree that Fran is incredible, but then again, I also don't think Meryl Streep is incredible. Of that age group I'm more fond of Isabelle Huppert, Anjelica Huston, Laurie Metcalf, Lesley Manville, Sissy Spacek, Holly Hunter, Sigourney Weaver, Alfre Woodward, Catherine Keener, Michelle Pfeiffer, and Miranda Richardson.

I agree with OP. Three Oscars for this overrated B? Goddamn Academy! 🖕🤮💩

Fern is truly unforgettable in all she does!!

"Katherine Hepburn is the only one that springs to mind. Her reputation coming AFTER her Oscar wins."

First of all, R12--oh, dear. It's Katharine. Second, Hepburn was in movies for 60 years. She won her first Oscar 3 years into her 60-year-career, and 2 more 35+ years after her first win, and all those years in between she got 8 Oscar nominations. Her reputation was secured after The Philadelphia Story in 1940, and continued through the 1960s and 1970s, so you really don't know what you're talking about.

"A good quote for Hepburn, who managed to retain and gain critical respectability as her more talented peers did TV and horror movies."

R26, I guess you mean Bette Davis, who was not a "more talented" peer than Hepburn. Hepburn had respectability all along, while racking up 4 wins and 12 nominations.

She's always been critically acclaimed throughout her career. She was excellent in Mississippi Burning and I thought she deserved to win even though Working Girl was my favorite movie from 1988 and that would have meant winning over Joan Cusack and Sigourney Weaver.

Blood Simple, Raising Arizona, Short Cuts, Almost Famous, Wonder Boys (so underrated), Laurel Canyon, North Country, Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day and her recent run of Oscar winners, Frances has been consistently good.

There is no revisionism.

I like her but she's no Sarah Bernardt.

She's no Claudette Colbert.

[quote]Second, Hepburn was in movies for 60 years. She won her first Oscar 3 years into her 60-year-career, and 2 more 35+ years after her first win, and all those years in between she got 8 Oscar nominations. Her reputation was secured after The Philadelphia Story in 1940, and continued through the 1960s and 1970s, so you really don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, we're familiar with all that. She only beat Davis to the title of First Lady of the American Screen AFTER winning the Oscars. Davis was still correctly viewed as the greatest screen actress of her generation in 1966, and with it only switching back then after Hepburn's death.

[quote] I guess you mean Bette Davis, who was not a "more talented" peer than Hepburn.

Of course she was.

Now why don't you head on back to LChat.

I would love to see ANY source from 2016 or earlier describing her one of the 'greatest living performers'

ONE

JUST ONE!

I can only assume it was written by an intern who regards a year as a long time.

McDormand has had a lot of low-key fans since the 1990s who have enjoyed her work and don't hang around the DL and other circles who consume copious amounts of entertainment media. I remember working as a temp in the mid 1990s and a coworker thought that McDormand was America's answer to Emma Thompson (who was at the peak of her popularity having just won her second Oscar--for screenwriting this time). These were my coworkers's words, not mine, and really liked her.

After winning her first Oscar, McDormand then worked under the radar with a solid, subtle run. She worked with Curtis Hanson right after L.A. Confidential and Cameron Crowe on his most appreciated film (continuing to stretch her range as an actor). If you seen Laurel Canyon, you've had the opportunity to enjoy her work as a rockstar who couldn't give two fucks. That same year, she showed she didn't mind playing second banana when it meant working with legends like Nancy Meyers and Diane Keaton. She got her fourth Oscar nomination two years later and continued to work with hip female directors following up Meyer, Lisa Cholodenko, and Niko Caro, with Nicole Holofcener. This wasn't by coincidence, but design. Whilst men still held most of the cards, she worked with what was available in the directions she wanted to go as an actor.

She continued to work with respected directors like Paolo Sorrentino, Gus Van Sant, and became part of Wes Anderson's stable of stars. The respect, IMO, began to increase more for McDormand in 2014 with Olive Kitteridge. Its power was lost on me, but the limited series won 8 Emmys, including one for McDormand, who also won SAG. She even became a meme that award season fanning herself like she was having hot flashes whilst losing patience for the pomp and circumstance of awards ceremonies. Two years later, Three Billboards came out and, at one point, was the frontrunner for Best Picture. At 60, she was picking up for second (lead) Oscar. She followed that up with two more Oscars last year.

OP seems insistent that what's happening is this "fake" revisionism: that, suddenly, McDormand is considered this revered actress for decades, when actually no one cared much about her as late as 2016 (according to OP). I think the problem here with that thinking is following the promoted hype that other people shill and accepting it like it's what everyone else thinks. And, as R37 pointed out, this just wasn't McDormand's bag. She deliberately avoided it whilst consistently holding and developing the respect she built from her industry and audiences. One could argue that the industry really started catching up with how some audiences felt about her all this time back in 2014. I'm not insisting this is the truth. But, it is another way of thinking about things, I haven't read the Vogue article and really have no interest. I'm not sure why it gets under OP's skin, but it's kind of funny.

She married a Coen brother and that's how she's gotten work. Heads up, ladies.

[quote]OP seems insistent that what's happening is this "fake" revisionism: that, suddenly, McDormand is considered this revered actress for decades, when actually no one cared much about her as late as 2016 (according to OP).

Not that NOBODY cared or thought she was a bad actress.

Just that she was never widely regarded as one of 'the greatest living actresses' until recently -- and some people now seem to think she was always regarded that way.

Don't know why this distinction seems so hard to grasp.

OP, I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the words a Vogue intern wrote. You need to go out and breathe some fresh air.

It's not just one article.

You mean to tell me that multiple publications are saying McDormand is "long considered one of our greatest living performers"?

OP is doing the most basic trolling possible: lying about something, then pretending to support the lie, just to get attention.

He knows he's lying. What I don't understand is why the rest of you don't know that he's lying.

Yes, R61. From Wikipedia:

[quote] In his review of Nomadland (2020), film critic Leonard Maltin refers to McDormand as "one of the finest actresses on the planet", stating "because [Fern] is played by McDormand, there is no better way to establish a connection between her and us in the audience. We know she is genuine; there is no artifice here"

She keeps playing variations on Margie. In "Nomadland" she is Margie just a little Aspier.

I watched this clip on-line, back before YouTube existed, and on the same day turned down a job offer from Apple. Never regretted it. Much.

2021

The last two examples are saying McDormand is the greatest as of 2021. Some of you don't know how to read.

Okay, R62. I'll just FF the fuckwits and place them on my Ignore List.

In contrast, 2011

r18

Two threads from 2021?

Did you read R18's post?

r71 no, not really. I did find some ancient posts about the scent of her cunt being the greatest and how she's been robbed but not the exact phrasing of the greatest overall. Greatest since x/y/z. But prior, it seems most thought she was too uptight, pretentious, hammy, unable to act, lives with her head up her ass but they don't think her pussy stinks., which might translate to greatest in DL speak

OP, go insert a "citation needed" and stfu.

"Davis was still correctly viewed as the greatest screen actress of her generation in 1966, and with it only switching back then after Hepburn's death."

R53, sez you. What you said was, of course, not fact or concensus but your opinion. The AFI crowned Hepburn as the greatest female star of Hollywood's Golden Age, with Davis #2.

And David could never have done with Hepburn achieved in "Long Day's Journey Into Night." Or "The Lion In Winter." Or "Summertime." Or "The African Queen."

Then there's the matter of 12 Oscar nominations and 4 wins--all this suggests the opposite concensus from what you're claiming. But believe what you want, hunty. Doesn't make it any kind of fact. The facts, if they are facts, are in the stats.

All about stage presence. Own the stage!

all.” Take, for example, an actor like Frances McDormand. Over the course of her career, McDormand has shown a remarkable versatility, on both stage and screen. In the theater, she performed frequently with the Wooster Group, one of the most important avant-garde stage companies of the twentieth century, but she’s also acted to great acclaim in realistic plays by writers like Tennessee Williams and Clifford Odets. In the meantime, she’s built a career as a prolific and gifted film and television actor, and she is second only to Katharine Hepburn in the number of Best Actress Oscars she’s received. Her performances—even when pushed to the stylistic limit in films like Burn After Reading—feel specific, and rooted in psychology, which she has called “the bottom line of it all.”

-lithub