What Women Want: Gay Romance

My sister wore out the VHS tape of Interview With The Vampire watching Tom Cruise suck on Brad Pitt’s neck over and over again.

Yes women love gay fan fiction also. The more explicit the better.

I wonder what it is.

They see the female protagonists in straight romance as competition for the hot guy.

Because men together are hot.

Uhhhhhhh.... straight men write lesbian fiction. It's nothing new.

The gay fiction women prefer is a reflection of the typical hetero fan fiction, except the female is replaced by a demure male.

This is most evident in the world of manga. Women typically prefer Yaoi manga where you have the Uke (less dominant shy shorter smaller bottom) and the Seme (more dominant taller larger top). Men, on the other hand prefer Bara manga, where you might still have these hetero troupes but the couple are more burly and beefy and equal in size.

I've noticed this in the past few years, it is especially apparent in the Young Adult/Teen novel category. It comes across a very fairy-tale like where a young man meets his Prince Charming and they live happily ever after. Utter fantasy. There is even a book called "Red White and Royal Blue" (written by a woman) which is about the son of a US president falling for a British Prince.

R3/R6 it’s a bit more complex than that.

Most heterosexual romance in fiction takes into account the drudgery of problems inherent in real-life heterosexual relationships—problems that straight readers want to escape via fiction.

In the case of straight women, there’s also a nice escape from systemic sexism and misogyny when reading or writing about two men together. It’s liberating, a freedom from depressing constraints and limitations and considerations that the real patriarchal world impose.

The black man in that photo is fine as fuck.

Why the hell did they pair him with that bland tasteless recessive white guy?

That's a tragedy within its self.

He should've been paired with another brother.

It’s all about the prostate don’t you know. These frau writers are fixated on the prostate.

Two men don't get pregnant.

Au contraire!

Most women either don't care about gay stuff or are grossed out by it. You are confusing a niche with something hugely popular. These books aren't exactly dominating the best-seller list

Please don't mention how many of the women authors and fans at the convention are OBESE.

Are the sex scenes any good?

R13 I agree that the genre itself (Softcore male eroticism) is niche but a large portion of this genre's audience are women. I guess guys prefer something less sensual and more straightforward.

Japanese women have been doing this forever. It's called yaoi.

Women make up a significant percentage of gay porn viewewrs.

Eh, I don't see the harm. It's about time American society evolved from that gross, tired, played-out Howard Stern-era "2 girls = hot, but gay men = gross" trope of the late '90s/'00s. That was such a gross period.

I'm neutral about this. In one way it's good that gay men are being showcased like this, but it's also potentially another straight woman gay guy fetish that they sometimes in literally pursue in real life. I knew a guy's step sister who wrote gay male sexual and literature, but she really wanted to watch gay men have sex in real life etc. Those kind of women are bad.

I'm neutral about this. In one way it's good that gay men are being showcased like this, but it's also potentially another straight woman gay guy fetish that they sometimes literally pursue in real life. I knew a guy's step sister who wrote gay male romance and sexual literature, but she really wanted to watch gay men have sex in real life etc. Those kind of women are bad.

[quote]but she really wanted to watch gay men have sex in real life etc. Those kind of women are bad.

r21 whats wrong with that? A lot of those women like watching you fuck or get fucked by their hot husband or boyfriend.

R22 not for me, thanks. I'm gay and don't want women watching me have sex with another gay man. I'm not interested in fucking or being fucking by their boyfriend's/husband's either. I'm not a bit swinger.

in being fucked* - spelling correction^ I'm not a bi swinger* - spelling correction^

I mentioned one time here that a younger coworker told me she liked reading M/M romance, specifically paranormal M/M, and some bitchy queen accused me of lying and making it up. I hope they watch this documentary.

R13 Umm sure... that's why Yaoi is more popular (it's made for or by women) than it's lesbian equivalent in a very repressed and conservative culture like Japan. Even male Kpop idols used to fake kiss or grab each other in a sexually aggressive way in concerts with SHRIEKING western or Korean girls in the audience.

R26 that’s called fanservice, and again it’s been going on forever. Arguably, this started when it was clocked that Lennon & McCartney’s public displays of affection sent women into a tizz, and ever since manufactured pop performers have been nudged to play up homoromanticism to get attention from female fans (and from sensationalist media).

The gay explicit fan fiction I’ve read focuses extensively on the top opening up the bottom with his fingers before fucking and then after fucking - the top getting a warm wash cloth and cleaning up the bottom before kissing him, cuddling and falling asleep together.

NOT ACCURATE?

It's a fucking shame that men, especially gay men, are absolutely forbidden from having anything, any space or any aspect of cultural identity without the infiltration by or forced acceptance of women or things that parade as women. Really. A fucking shame.

R29 AGREED. Gay men get screwed over all the time. We have never been allowed our own gay spaces exclusively or left alone..We are the doormats for everyone, and we are constantly appropriated. We are the only minority or group that is attacked whenever we speak up.

There are a lot of gay fan fiction written by women but here is a rare of Beecher/keller from OZ fanfic by a gay man. Check the difference...

YA Twitter is awash (perhaps literally) with straight women SQUEEING about gay love, gay superheroes, and “shipping” straight characters into gay romance. Yet these are the same people screaming about the appropriation of cultures and people to feed one’s fetishistic needs. Go figure.

R31 that was hot thank you

If the husband was really hot, or there were two other hot guys involved, I’d have NO problem with a woman watching or participating.

You young bitches wait until you get old and turn INVISIBLE.

R34 you do you.

r34 amen. so much outrage here over fraus thinking gay couples are hot.

R31 if prose like this is not your definition of typical boilerplate romance writing, then I don’t know what to tell you. I’m not saying it’s necessarily bad or inaccurate, just that it’s schmoopy as any fanwork by a Frau.

[quote] He wanted someone to touch him with a gentle hand. From that first kiss, that moment when his own internal landscape changed forever, he had needed that. He wanted it so badly it invaded his dreams. Beecher had allowed Keller access to his heart and the small spark of himself he had husbanded so carefully through the landmines of his daily existence. In his mind, when he was filled with the suffocating pain of his life, he thought of Chris ... he thought of how it would be, lying beneath him, letting him have his way. Always it would be the same way... Keller would take him, fucking him hard, and Beecher would allow it, finding in his capitulation, strength, belonging and a rising sense of love and redemption. Here, in this shithole, he had found love. Or, so he thought. /I gave you my heart .../Beecher needed Keller, to fuck him, to hold him, to whisper sweet lies in his ear as he moved over him. He wanted to wrap his legs around that powerful body, feeling closer and deeper, the muscles as they moved to take him. He wanted to kiss someone and hear them lie as they told him he was someone, he was loved, he was needed and wanted and alive.

[quote] Keller felt a flash of protectiveness pass through him. "Toby..." He huddled against the bunk, his arms around his legs, crying softly, and Keller was helpless. /Baby.../ Keller moved closer, sitting beside Toby, slipping his arms around shaking shoulders. He pulled Toby against his bare chest, holding him as he cried. Sighing deeply, he felt complete. Powerful. In control. /I want total submission... and then, total love.../ The thought rattled around in his head, battering against the years of hard living, surety of his own central position in relationships and the bad, bad example of his own parents. /I love you, Toby... this is different.../ He had said it and he meant it. This whole time, this whole ordeal of needing Toby and not having him had changed him. He could feel it inside. "Toby... let me take care of you. Let me," he had whispered, and Toby had relaxed against him, laying his head in Keller's lap, closing his eyes in his intense weariness. "That's it, baby... just let me take care of things..." Keller sighed, listening without hearing the conversations around him. All he had time and senses for was the silent man beside him.

R31 worth noting also that by the final season, OZ as a show itself has devolved into ‘shipping’, cracky moments, and shark-jumps.

Of course, with that came a few precious nuggets of tv gold, like the Schillinger/Beecher karaoke duet.

Here’s a very big and quite graphic archive of m/m fan fiction stories written by a gay man, about top-flight soccer players.

R28 “Cleaning up the bottom.” Does that mean the bottom was messy? I wouldn’t have thought that was romantic.

R39 OMG I haven’t thought about the Nifty archive since the Usenet days! It’s not full of gay romance stories written by women, that’s for sure.

MMromance is full of women who fetishize and make money off of gay men. They write about gay men and think they are doing their "research" but just exploiting them.

Yeah then they want to become "gay men" and claim transphobia when gays don't want their smelly pussies.

r40 - good point. the warm wash cloth is usually cleaning up lube and fluids. you're right - it is gross but these fan fic fraus make it a part of almost every story they write. the warm washcloth and then drifting off to sleep.

R44 Wow, I wonder if that means that after sex, het women want het men to “warsh their vagina,” as Margaret Cho put it in one of her stand-up routines.

I grew up reading gay erotica and lots of gay lit by actual gay men, so when I first started reading some fanfic m/m written by women (I think it was Harry/Draco from HP), it was a bit jarring. The sex is so tame and really its written as typical het romance sex but with another guy subbed in. Even the bdsm stuff, or "noncon" I would look for was not particularly realistic as gay sex, and the men didn't act like men - certainly none of the gay men I knew. And yes, they are obsessed with 'preparing the bottom' by the top "scissoring" him to get him loose so it won't hurt. I can always tell when a m/m fanfic is written by a woman because the sex scenes are written the same three or four ways.

But its been going on a long long time, and there have been numerous threads about this topic on DL over the years. An entire generation of girls grew up on yaoi or m/m shipping. Its not that small of a group. Basically, girls who read. And these days, there are literally hundreds of ships the millenials and gen z'ers get their thrills from (I came across an explicit fanfic featuring Stephen Colbert/Jon Stewart not long ago). Yet I think it inherently has nothing to do with gay men. The men are just objects fulfilling a desire for something different. The stories are written for other women, not gay men. They are not concerned with authenticity or a gay perspective on love, it is written exclusively for their own female desires. They will tell you this themselves when the suggestion that they are fetishizing or appropriating gay men for their needs is lobbed at them - and will defend their right to do it.

Yet, some of them still have the gall to get irate when straight men consume lesbian fics which I find hypocritical. R32 has the right of it.

Yes r46 to everything you said but especially the scissoring fingers lol. WTF is that about?

[quote] can always tell when a m/m fanfic is written by a woman because the sex scenes are written the same three or four ways.

What are the three or four ways? Now I’m morbidly curious.

This article claims women make up one third of Pornhub's gay porn viewership.

The problems with women writing gay romances:

They often impose a heterosexist structure and story line; the relationship must be monogamous! "Cheating" is used as a damaging plot point of scandal.

The overuse of 'beta' readers by authors has led to a monotony of similar prose style and stories, like a generic quilting circle.

The heavy reliance on "alpha" (gruff firefighter who happens to be a werewolf) and "beta" (barrista twunk) relationships is a vastly overused trope; ripping off 'Teen Wolf' etc. is common.

The writing is often laughably inane. The setting is usually some vague unspecific small town with no real descriptions or history.

Women writers usually prove to not understand the basics of gay male sex, despite all their porn-watching.

The entire AIDS pandemic is rarely mentioned. HIV is swept aside with a simple horrid descriptor, "I'm clean." So, HIV-positive men are "dirty?"

The MPreg (Male Pregnancy) subgenre is just insane and stupid.

Also, most women authors' bios mention heir "supportive" hubby (i.e. he pays the bills while she stays home clacking away on her 47th romance), and flood the market, often giving away their books for as low as 99 cents online, leaving actual gay male literature listings shunted down in sales rank, and therefore sales of books by actual gay male authors decline; they struggle to sell books and make a living with one or two jobs.

I work in publishing, and most gay male authors despise the books in the romance genre.

Not new.

Women have been writing "slash fiction" for decades ("Slash fiction" means a gay romance between two characters who were heterosexual in the original TV series or movie.)

Male pregnancy? Please tell me you're exaggerating. That's disgusting.

R49 most of those women are lesbians though

for whatever reason, lesbians like gay male porn

The straight world, men AND women, do not

They love "lesbian" scenes in straight porn nut most straight are turned off of two men

What about gay sex do the women get wrong? Is there a prostate orgasm every time?

R53, Mpreg and it’s a thing 2766 pages of it on Ao3

R2 They don’t have to compete with the beautiful woman that a handsome straight guy would naturally be with. They are free to just enjoy hot guys and not feel insecure about their own looks (or lack of).

Wow, R56. Just...unreal. 🤢

They are not lesbians R49

Who do you think wrote all the Gale Harold threads and now write all the Chalamet ones?

And yes R53, MPREG has long been a hallmark of Slash fiction.

Joey knocks up Chandler.

R14 is correct. There were a group of middle aged obese women who used to together in my neighbor’s apt next door to me and read and write fan fiction about Snape, the dick professor in the Harry Potter series, and Harry. The stories were called “Snarry.” Sometimes to spice it up they write about Lupin and Sirius.

R36, you fuckin dumb ass why the fuck would any gay man want that shit? Don't you have any fucking pride as a man?

You know male/male fanfic is becoming popular when 90 year old William Shatner is aware of it...

R34, do you fucking lack pride and dignity.

R61 I don’t have pride as a man because it doesn’t bother me that women might find me and my boyfriend hot? With all the hatred and prejudice and horrible shit we have to put up with - no - having some random fraus thinking gay men are sexy just does not seem like an issue to me.

The problem with M/M romance (even that term sort of closets the "gay" content) is that women writers want their gays "cute" and manageable. Sure, many stories have leads/MCs (Main Characters) with a "troubled" past (enter stalker ex-boyfriend trope), but it's still lacking in merit.

I enjoy trashy books, but prefer vintage gay pulps instead.

R64, so you're just a shit eater, got it.

Actually R62, some of the original Slash was written about Spock and Kirk back in the 80s or 90s when it was in Zines

No-one tell R53 about Vore...

Love the covert misogyny in this thread, disguised as righteous outrage about perceived homophobia.

How dare women have hobbies that have any slight capacity to challenge? How dare they write about what they find interesting or sexy? How dare they have free time they use frivolously? How dare they take precious hours to do something to entertain and titillation themselves or each other, instead of suckling their children or cleaning up after their husbands? How dare they presume to do anything creative without the permission of men?

None of you would have a word to say if straight men were writing the exact same type of fiction, or if straight men were spending time doing anything equally inane or amateur, because you all simp for straight men (who hate you) like it’s your job and therefore won’t dare criticise them.

r69 "None of you would have a word to say if straight men were writing the exact same type of fiction"

It's cute you think this would actually happen.

The number one complaint I've heard about F3 (Frau-written Fan Fiction) is that the sex scenes, which are frequent, are anatomically incorrect (the positions they get into are not feasible since the anus is not in the same location as a vagina) and fail to acknowledge the prep that bottoms need. That, and the self-lubricating anuses.

R64, I agree with you. Getting upset over this is not high on my priority list. I'm no fan of slash fiction or whatever you call it, but sometimes women authors write good gay male-centered books (i.e. Mary Renault, Patricia Nell Warren).

The misogyny in a few of the responses here isn’t covert - it’s explicit....

Gay men have written female characters for years - in television, movies, books, etc. But the idea of some random old fraus or teen girls writing some gay male fan fiction on the internet is inspiring such rage... WTF?

I understand finding it silly or embarrassing but beyond that... who fucking cares?

Yeah, I don't think such tribalism is necessary. And Mary Renault was really a masterful writer.

Yeah, not seeing any problem here. Let people enjoy what they want to.

Personally, I find most female-written gay erotica to be lacking. But then again, 99% of nifty.org is crap as well. I spent so much time in my teens trying to track down all of Perseus' erotica online (I think I even found his email address at one point) and never found anything else like it (look up his Ass Abbey sometime on Nifty). James Lear is actually publishing some mainstream fun erotica as well (it's a pseudonym for a published author who... I never read any of his other stuff).

R75 wrote: “...look up his Ass Abbey sometime on Nifty.”

That title sounds like a gay porno version of Downton Abbey.

I don't really see any rage here, other than the publisher guy who feels like women self-publishing their silly romances are taking away from gay men writing real works of art. Of course, if the gay men are also writing silly romances, then they deserve to get mired in garbage. No self respecting person should be writing in this genre.

And sure, people can like what they like and write what they they want, but the hypocrisy from the frau set can sometimes get a bit galling.

Serious female novelists writing about gay men is not what's being discussed.

I've actually been surprised by Nifty, R75

I'd say the crap percentage is closer to 90%, but of that 90%, a good half of them have the basic techniques of writing a story down (e.g., characters talk in quotation marks, author tells you who is speaking, ("Thrust your man-spear into me," Keith said.) -- which would indicate some familiarity with writing.

And of the 10% that isn't crap, you do wonder who writes the 1% that is pretty good. Especially when they become 25-chapter series.

There's one called "Joe College" that isn't literature, but whoever wrote it clearly has done some writing before.

So why porn for free.

I digress-- back to fan fiction

R69, all the things you want to put on a cape for, it's STRAIGHT women? Your defense is just a stupid simp for women in fucking GAY SPACES which no gay man fucking asked for. Because you're one of those gay men who simp for straight women (who want to own/control/convert you) like it’s your job and therefore won’t dare criticize them. You're probably a fucking woman catfishing anyway.

[quote] women self-publishing their silly romances are taking away from gay men writing real works of art.

As for print, they're not taking anything away. Bookstores and online stores will stock both romance and 'serious' lit. And many gay romances are published both in print and ebooks. Hooray for everyone. A snooty literary house won't contract with the authors of cheesy romances, and small low-paying presses shouldn't appeal to authors of 'art' novels.

But specifically, on Amazon, if you look in gay fiction, the listings are flooded with cheap or free women-penned ebooks. Straight women can give their books away, because to them, it's a fun hobby. They're more likely to be supported as part of the patriarchal economic structure, while gay male authors are more likely to support themselves (excepting the small minority who are partnered and financially sharing assets).

Philosophically, politically, and economically, straight women authors may empathize, but do not experience the discrimination gay people do, particularly those who, from their bios, reveal their red state home base. Ally online only?

The #OwnVoices has its merits and flaws. Just read a few of the freebie M/M romances for a laugh.

But the years-long disguise nom de plumes among many authors is part of the falsehood of women pretending to be men.

It's been typed here before in a prior discussion; it's the literary equivalent of a bachelorette party invading a gay bar.

R79 - there is the misogynistic rage. I’m not “putting my cape on” for shit. I’m saying I don’t give a fuck. And your logic of Internet fan fiction being a “GAY SPACE” doesn’t make a lot of sense? If it’s all girls and fraus writing and reading this shit - how is that a GAY SPACE? You are reacting like a militant army of fraus is storming the bathhouses. When in reality it’s a bunch of teenage girls and middle aged moms exchanging anatomically incorrect stories of male tv characters falling in love with each other. Is that something you want to claim as a GAY SPACE? I don’t.

R80 - thank you. that makes sense and THAT is fucked up. Any fics you would recommend written by men? Or authors?

R50

[quote]The heavy reliance on "alpha" (gruff firefighter who happens to be a werewolf) and "beta" (barrista twunk) relationship

…I…I-

…kind of want to read this…

At Swim, Two Boys by Jamie O'Neill

Dream Boy by Jim Grimsley

The vast majority of people who buy these gay romance books written by women (and by a few gays, like the guy in the doc) [italic]are[/italic] women themselves. You can’t shame them out of your “space” and then expect this same demographic to consume your products.

R81 "Wingmen" is great. It was written by an ex-Navy guy. There's a DL thread about it:

Thanks for the male written recs!

Are the recs at R83 actually men or more women pretending to be men?

Not a trans thing, I'm talking about where the author claims to be male but is, in actuality,a female living life as a female and fraudulently portraying herself as a HE online.

If the recs at R83 came from Publishing Guy, I'll take his word for it, but the post was unsigned.

I have changed my opinion on this. I read a lot and have quite abit of MM fiction. Some of it it is actually really good. Just my opinion. Some of the darker stuff can really dark. While some of the sex is stupid, some is amazingly intense.

I grew up with Mary Renault and Marguerite Yourcenar . I love women writers. I love Gay writers. This whole stay in your lane bullshit we are all going through needs to die a horrible death. Reading is about imagining and learning.

Women are our allies and you don’t shit on them. Stop the misogyny.

What r88 said.

R87 they look like fiction written by men (I googled) - no trans.

Cheers R88, you’re right.

Funny that the DL is first to downcry and criticise gatekeeping, censorship and ‘cancel/woke’ culture, and rightfully so...until it comes to a niche subsection of smutty amateur fiction written about gay men, which apparently is a bridge too far.

If women and straight people can’t ever write, script, act or characterise gay men, then gay men can’t write, script, act or characterise women or straight people either. Can’t have this one both ways.

R90 I don’t think anyone is saying women shouldn’t write them, someone asked WHY they do. They write M2M so they don’t have to feel insecure about a hot woman character. Nothing wrong with it, if they enjoy writing it, more power to them!

Gay man sex is the best sex. Who wouldn't like it?

r92 sums it up pretty well. that's the bottom line.

Two of the greatest gay historical romances Memories of Hadrian and The Persian Boy. Were written by lesbians : Marguerite Yourcenar and Mary Renault.

I may eat snatch but thinking about cowboys dry humping in a tent makes me wet.

R79, you are a dumbass fucking simp. Women are not fucking allies trying to claim gay sexuality as their program. DUDE OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES. Gay men's sexuality belongs to men, MEN. You bitches worry to fucking much about allyship instead what it means to be FUCKING GAY. Yeah dumb fuck, you're putting on a cape to save this stupid women shit.

R96 gurl your mother did a number on you....

r97, bitch don't do it. don't even try to fuckin go there with me.

Let’s face you don’t like it don’t read it. I like it. I am a Gay man. I love where the authors take me. Some of the Gay journeys have been wild. From deaf teenagers being basically used and abused in the Wild West and loving it to a priest being taken over by a Pagan devil and consuming hypocritical parishioners in Poland, while still loving a tatt loving farmer, to Gay Regency romance , while in many cases understanding all the evil being done to Gay Men in those times. Cant get enough.

[quote] a priest being taken over by a Pagan devil and consuming hypocritical parishioners in Poland

R99 link? Asking for a Pagan friend...

R25 I bet she was a Supernatural fan 😄

R99 This is a controversial opinion, but I think female writers overall bring a positive contribution to gay literature. They know they rarely are taken seriously, so they have more room to be creative and outlandish. They write romcoms, sci-fi, thrillers, regency, fantasy, western, sports stories... I think many gay writers obsess too much with being considered a “respected author”, and that makes their works mostly limited to heavy dramas about the struggles of being a homosexual and/or having a homosexual relationship. Sometimes you just want a light-hearted story with gay characters.

BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

Guys are entertained by girl-on-girl action.

Women are entertained by guy-on-guy action.

Yes. And tbh some of the fan fiction writers on AO3 are really strong. Men women I don’t care - when someone is actually talented - I love it.

But as a man I don't want to fucking entertain women and it loses something when women get involved. It's a fucked up kind of voyeurship.

r105 but you're not the one entertaining them. So they are entertained by something in which you partake as written by an author who has not. I'm assuming you went to college; can no one write a book about living beings seeking higher education if they didn't matriculate? Or if she didn't attend your same college? Or what if she sets that novel in a fraternity? How dare she write about something that "belongs" to men! She'll just ruin it!

Haven't read any of these gay stories written by women but I don't see the problem. If they enjoy writing it, and people like reading it, no harm, no foul.

This reminds me of the outrage a year or two ago when a Latina woman wrote a book about Latina women and there was a shitstorm on twitter and online because she wasn't Latina ENOUGH. Just nonsense.

If I was a writer and decided to write about an 1890's housewife mired in domesticity while having sublimated feelings for a woman down the block I'd hope people would enjoy it, despite me being a male author. If it was a good book I'd hope people would like it and if it sucked I'd expect it to flop.

On a different level, I think it's touching and even a little bit sad that these women think the lives of gay men are so much better (or hotter) than theirs. It is a lot of the time, but there's downsides to that as well (though I wouldn't change for anything, even if I could). Let them have their fun, it doesn't hurt anyone.

r107, that "Latina" author wasn't, and there was more to it than that.

"All of these negative reviews centered on one major problem: American Dirt is a book about Mexican migrants, and author Jeanine Cummins has identified as white, calling her family mostly white “in every practical way” a few years ago. (She has since begun to discuss a Puerto Rican grandmother.) Cummins had written a story that was not hers — and, according to many readers of color, she didn’t do a very good job of it. In fact, she seemed to fetishize the pain of her characters at the expense of treating them as real human beings."

There's such a thing as being overly familiar. Issues of entitlement. These romances are related to the similar plague of straight women in gay bars/spaces thinking they're owed something.

These women have a fascination that's not healthy and leads to demands that gay men be inclusive. Where do you think that sense of entitlement comes from? Well these books would be an example.

R109 way to reach, Stretch Armstrong. Pushy people are pushy, no romance novels needed. And, indeed, some people (men) do get drawn into a fictitious world and identify too strongly and feel too familiar with the actors they watch in porn. That's certainly entitled. Better shut it all down because people can't differentiate real life from fantasy.

If a porn actor's livelyhood depends on fantasy, it's his issue if he fucks up the fantasy.

Point taken, R108 (I didn't pay too much attention to the controversy, it sounded like a typical twitter tempest in a teapot). But whether the author is a white woman with a Puerto Rican grandmother, or a white or black man (gay or straight) the book itself should be judged on its own merits.

R109 - please. It’s a corner of the internet where they write fan fiction for each other. They aren’t making a profit. They aren’t storming gay bars from their homes in middle America. Let it go. Unless you’re the publisher who posted above with concrete reasons self-published books by women can impact gay writers, you are reaching.

The more I hear, the more this genre seems like a space for queer women than for gay men (or straight women). And I’ll support the lesbians any day of the week. They can write about us fucking as much as they want. Go to town sisters.

It's an uncomfortable truth that women are the Gay Community's biggest allies. Sometimes they support gay causes and gay entertainment more than the Gays themselves.

R113, if you want to drink the poisoned kool-aid that's on you. There are none so blind as those that will not see.

[quote] It’s a corner of the internet where they write fan fiction for each other.

Actually it's not a "corner," it's overtaken increasingly rare literary gay male fiction 100 to one. That's my point above. Look at the number of reviews for a woman-penned romance by L.A. Witt (400-2000 reviews on Goodreads and Amazon) versus, say, a novel by Christopher Bram (10-30).

Apples and oranges? McDonald's versus haute cuisine? Perhaps. If you think one doesn't override the other, do so. I disagree.

Jesus fuck, if women writing gay romance triggers such unhinged rage in some of you, what the fuck is stopping you from writing your own?! You act like there is a finite amount of it that can be written and as if it takes up a finite amount of space in some imaginary romance bookstore. Crazy.

It’s been done before.

I think maybe there is finite space and not just fan fiction. Go to Amazon and see that, in my opinion, it's quite difficult to find a gay male romance book written by a gay man. In my searching, I saw that one of the biggest publishers is celebrating PRIDE with some books about gay men but no gay men are represented on this panel as far as I understand it. I wonder about that. I'm a reader who would love to find more gay male authors in this genre but it isn't easy. I don't want to stop anyone from writing what they want or reading what they want. At the age of near but not yet 70, I have stopped caring about that.

Gay men have appropriated women (specifically black women) for eternity. The outrage over this issue is laughable.

[quote]Jesus fuck, if women writing gay romance triggers such unhinged rage in some of you, what the fuck is stopping you from writing your own?!

r117 because most of these complaining ass bitches never actually experienced real romance their lives and they are bitter as fuck. I bet you anything the people complaining about their "space" being invaded are just mad they have sucked 1000 dicks yet never had one of the guys express true feelings for them, other than getting their nut.

Look a like a lot of MM fiction and as a Gay Man who loves Gay fiction I am happy.

Let’s be honest here. Many authors in 80s and 90s wrote about AIDS and coming out and loss. Then many wrote about displacement. When Gays got Marriage equality they entered the Mainstream. I hardly know the Gay community now and I bet you many Gay 20 and 30 somethings have limited exposure to Gay community. We begged for acceptance and equality. We got it. Now we are Mainstream.

Women ,I think, write about Gay Men in many ways because they get us. Many of us didn’t love the Macho culture. Didn’t love Sport and football etc, women can write about us because they understand our makeup better than Straight men.

In your normal Straight Romance novel , inevitably there are the conflicts leading towards inevitable marriage and kids. But with MM relationships other possibilities can be explored, other dynamics and power plays. I totally support women writing MM fiction. It is flattering in a way.

It must be popular with women. I looked for a gay YA novel to buy for a cousin and every single review on GoodReads is from a woman.

R121

you sound sort of bitter….

I will always respect Lesbians……they were the only nurses that would care for Gay men during the HIV epidemic when no one else would….. i won’t forget that

maybe they do understand us

[quote] Women ,I think, write about Gay Men in many ways because they get us. Many of us didn’t love the Macho culture. Didn’t love Sport and football etc, women can write about us because they understand our makeup better than Straight men.

No they don't. That's why M/M boylove slah fiction is terrible. Characters act like 13 year old girls, it's ridiculous. I don't mind that, but please lets call it by its name.

The #1 YA on the NYT best sellers list is a book written by a gay man about two teen boys falling in love. They Both Die at the End by Adam Silvera. So yeah, gay fiction is popular and it's neither exclusive of women or gays.

r127 but it's mostly women.

Women dominate the literary market nowadays, since they read and write considerably more than men.

HBO is producing a series off They Both Die At the End. Looks interesting. Here's hoping we'll get gay people to make this.

I want in on the action! Why should the fraus write gay content. Although if they want to, it's called writing fiction, not memoir. People are allowed to write about people and experiences outside of their own.

Chase and Lance lock in a tight embrace, their Vesuvius of passions about to erupt. As Lance's loin's begin to ache with desire, he can feel the fabric of his jeans taut against his rapildy swelling manhood. Chase's rosebud starts to relax with all the excitement, hot and tingly.

R127 & R130 I appreciate that the book is doing well, but as an eldergay, I had a negative reaction to the title, which harkens back to the days when nearly all homosexuals in literature died.

R127 Funny that it's written by a gay man, because the main gay protagonist acts exactly like a 13 yo girl. I couldn't get through the book, he was so annoying!

It's exploitative, and for the bi men on this thread encouraging gay men to embrace straight women fetishizing them and even watching them have gay male sex, you lot are pathetic and drug addicts.

I read some really good schitt’s creek fan fiction about the gay couple on the show. Not sure if men or women are writing it but it’s hot AF and really well done. If any of you bitches want some links let me know.

Some of these people can really write. They take the couple from the show (which was cute but limited) and turn it into really beautiful stuff.

r134 bitch please, if the guy was hot enough and dick big enough your trifling ass wouldn't care if a woman sat and watched you get dug out

R136 listen here bitch, I don't care if the guy is hung like a donkey, has massive balls the size of a billygoat, and has an extremely got body that was sculpted God himself; I would BE NEVER key a female watch me have sex with another man!

hot body* by God*

I would NEVER let*

A female friend of mine loves gay male romance novels. She asked me to read one. I stopped after 20 pages. It seemed very Young Adult, almost like Twilight. The sex was unrealistic & tame. A big bore. My friend claimed she was not offended but she clearly was because she brought it up three or four times in the course of the year. She had positioned this book (“For Real”) as the best of the genre. It really sucked. Women who write in this genre seem, by and large, incapable of understanding what makes male/male sodomy pleasurable and think the prostate must be equivalent to the clitoris. I still read some gay male erotica but it’s getting harder to find, the best, in my opinion, being the stories of R.J. March. But hot, well-written gay male erotic fiction has been replaced by crappy gay romance, lame amateur fiction and fan fiction, and beyond-shitty slapdash gay erotica ebooks.

r137 luckily there are zero women signing up to watch you.

do you really think those same women (especially the queer women) want to watch you in person have sex? what makes you think the writing of these stories translates to women wanting to watch you in person? it's all fantasy - most of it isn't even anatomically accurate and it is based on straight characters from television.

some of you queens are really flattering yourselves.....

agree r140 that they equate the prostate with the clitoris. 100%.

R141, that has nothing to do with anything, R137 is responding to pansexual bitch at R136. We are gay men that don't need validation of some fetish chick watching us have sex.

[quote] listen here bitch, I don't care if the guy is hung like a donkey, has massive balls the size of a billygoat, and has an extremely got body that was sculpted God himself; I would BE NEVER key a female watch me have sex with another man!

Your loss. The best thing of my relationships with bi men was to have threesomes with women. I'm gay and don't care for them, but it's very hot to see your boyfriend fucking a woman and then fucking you after. Not everyone has attachment and mommy issues.

R143, you're full of shit, what does not wanting to see a woman being fucked have to do with attachment issues, you've been hanging with bi people too much to mouth that stupid shit. Are you a motherfucking pansexual bitch like that other poster. We don't get off on bi fucking, you dumb shit. You're relationship sounds disgusting to me and if anything you're the fucked up one. Being gay doesn't mean we have to sign off on stupid bisex shit. Bitch. Stop bringing people's mother's into it. That's how you get you're ass kicked.

[quote] You're relationship

[quote] get you're ass kicked.

"Oh, oh, dear, dear," he cried as his man thrust into him.

R145 shut up dumbass, you know people are writing out of anger, stop being a pansexual apologist.

r140, it's interesting that you chose that book to call out as unrealistic, since Alexis Hall identifies as a queer man (and not trans either). I've never read him, since his books sound depressing to me, but he seems to be one of the few actual men writing in the gay romance genre.

So maybe it's not just women who don't know how to write romance.

r119, when the Carina Adores line launched, one of the launch titles was by a gay man, which I was glad to see. (I have to admit I haven't read it, though I probably should have bought it just to support such a thing. But stories about cutesy small towns aren't my thing.) He's had one other published by them, but looking at the rest, all of the other gay male romances in the line have been written by women (or one trans man), including the ones scheduled through next spring.

Correction--two of the authors may be trans. Though I'm probably opening a whole different can of worms separating them from gay male authors who were born biologically male.

If Alexis Hall is queer that means he's def not 100% gay not 100% straight somewhere in between and trans-friendly at least.

So we have FTM trans writing gay romances now?

Only women with IQ's around 75 would read the above mentioned crap. So don't add intelligent women to the statistical mix.

R143 Thank you for prove that being a self loathing f*g and bi men are disgusting. I will never get along with these people. Block.

Such rage my god. The rest of us are unbothered and some queen they let loose from the sanitarium is screaming about bi-men and women demanding to watch him have sex and self-loathing gay men and on and on and on.

It’s not that deep honey. Take your meds.

R153, another self loather seeking hey validation.

[quote] you know people are writing out of anger

The always inept R146, a fervid furious failure.

Do you know the difference between a comma and a period? Do you even know what they are? Have you ever held a job that required typing? Are you angry because you can't read or write? Were you abandoned as a child?

actually lol'ing r155.

[quote] Are you a motherfucking pansexual bitch like that other poster.

I'm gay, just like you minus the faggotry. Get lost, just because so bi dude left your effeminate ass, doesn't mean we have to put up with you.

[quote] actually lol'ing

So much stupidity in so few letters.

LOL should be capitalized. Your new word for the day is "acronym," and/or "initialization."

Lolling is a word. See what is known as a link. It is not "laughing out loud."

LOL is.

Even if you managed to type it properly, LOLing is redundant (another big word for you look up).

LOLing (No apostrophe need for this non-word) translates to Laughing Out Loud-ing.

So much stupidity in two words, one which isn't even a word.

You're very stupid, laughably so.

R157, don't date bi men you homophobic bitch, you crave het validation. Not fem either piece of shit. You love being a freaks how for women we get it.

[quote], don't date bi men you homophobic bitch, you crave het validation. Not fem either piece of shit. You love being a freaks how for women we get it.

I've dated bi men because we have tastes in common, not out of fetich. Didn't know they were bi when we met. You most definitely are a femme gay, all of the drama you spewed here is a huge indicator of that. You're also clearly traumatized by masculine men, so maybe get yourself some therapy, because you're just a fucking waste of time and space right now.

R160, fuck off you dumb bitch. No not femme, typically taken for straight. More masc than you, trying to suck up to bi men fucking their women. You are one pathetic dumb ass fag.

We love throbbing cock and loads being shot and men moaning. Women are not competition; in this case, they are boring. Been there, done that. Also, we are with straight men who usually balk at having their assholes played with, even if they want it. I would love to watch my guy get railed by another man only to find out he absolutely goes crazy for it. But maybe thats just me.

The femme is pissed.

[quote]It's a fucking shame that men, especially gay men, are absolutely forbidden from having anything, any space or any aspect of cultural identity without the infiltration by or forced acceptance of women or things that parade as women. Really. A fucking shame.

It's interesting, I didn't realize this feeling was so prevalent, but I'm an elder gay and women were not all over our spaces back in the "olden days of gays" they way they are today.

R163 = femme

R160 - let's see: you're a bottom bitch for a bi couple that uses you for a cheap thrill/accessory, you think bi > gay, you have self-loathing/internalized homophobia issues, you have massive insecurities about masc vs. femme/gay vs. straight but we're supposed to envy you because you're trolling as a "masculine" man on Datalounge of all places? The jokes write themselves. A truly masculine man wouldn't need to insult a femme man to boost his security. It's obvious you lack dignity. These femme men have more dignity and security than you do.

lololol r158. How long did it take you to write that?

[quote] How long did it take you to write that?

In less time than it took you to read it.

Congratulations, though, on typing a complete sentence.

Just saw this Twitter thread and was reminded of this discussion. Evidently Harlequin is getting ready to publish its first gay romance in one of its regular lines (instead of its new dedicated LGBT line). Naturally it's written by a woman.

The book:

The rest of the thread (I don't think the first link gave the whole thing)

Thought Song of Achilles was a bellissima novel. Critics were saying Madeline Miller was the successor to the great Mary Renault when it came to ancient Greek shipping. Then I tried to read her second novel Circe....oh well.

Adam Silvera literally proved this whiny queen wrong.

Adam Silvera may write love stories, but they're not really romance novels (on his Goodreads page, he lists his genres as "Young Adult, Contemporary, Science Fiction" with Romance nowhere to be found). (It's like people who think Nicholas Sparks writes romance novels. He doesn't.) So he's irrelevant to this discussion.

Not to mention Silvera's most recent books, which probably are the most romance-novel-like...are co-written with a woman.

I thought DLers already knew this. How many of the stupid dilemma posts here are from fat, blue haired women who write fanfic on Tumblr?

They both die at the end is a gay sci-fi romcom for tees, I don't know how else to classify that, and it's a #1 best seller.

I fail to understand the distinction you're trying to make, unless you're talking about high literature and the rest. It's a story between two boys falling in love and then being victim of the dystopia they live in. Why isn't that a romance story?

A romance novel has a happy ending. By definition, neither of the love interests dies in the end.

r170 That announcement is appalling. A big moment like that and not a gay man in sight. They pretend to be woke but don't care about actually having representation. Trash.

Historically, the writing of novels (especially romance) was considered a female and therefore inferior literary pastime or career. Respectable ‘serious’ male writers, critics, biographers, poets & playwrights of yore considered it emotionally-pornographic and societally-useless frippery that was beneath them.

And, further, novels were once one of the few ways in which women with patriarchally-limited lives and futures could express themselves and release the emotions that were denied them.

How the turn tables.

So much anger. I mean for fuck’s sake we are talking about Fiction. Fucking fiction. I don’t get this stay in your own lane shit. It is pathetic and frankly bullshit.

I have read many women authors. Some of them truly great. I have read male Gay authors who I have been told are great , who leave me cold. I have read so much Edmund White, because I have been told it is his best book ever ! Nothing. Nada.

What the hell does it matter if women write about Gay men. Does not bother me in the slightest. Bet they can describe sucking cock than we, as Gay men can write about licking pussy. Can you imagine .

“ He looked at the hideous mess in front of him. He tried valiantly not to gag . How could he do this heroic thing? But he tried to move towards the sickening display in front of him.”

That would be us. At least women can write about cock.

Something else to consider—it’s much more physically and emotionally riskier and more stressful for women to explore sexually or act out fantasies in real life, and for those who do take the risk their window for activity is even smaller and shorter than that of gay men.

Every single time a female hooks up, not only must she risk catching STDs or feelings like males do, but also bear the additional stress of possibly assault & rape, potential social reputation damage, or unwanted pregnancy (even on birth control).

She must also constantly remain aware of her relative youthfulness, attractiveness and fertile qualities. Sexually-active women are only considered desirable by eligible men if they meet a long strict list of criteria, usually to do with physical attributes that many females can’t live up to or change. If she falls in love with a man, but she’s less than a 6 or a few pounds over ideal BMI or a couple of years too close to 30, then most men including her desired wouldn’t want to know.

For a woman it’s almost impossible to truly relax in a real sexual scenario, outside of private lesbian sex with a trusted friend. The imagination however has limitless possibilities, including the fantasy of sex with desirable men by proxy; where, for once, a woman does not have worry about being attacked or hurt or knocked up, nor does she have to labour under patriarchal judgement and valuation of how she falls so painfully short and has no cachet on the real-world meat-market. It’s about finding a kind of inner psychological freedom from imposed real-world constraints.

Personally, I believe this is where erotic and romantic fiction & drama fulfils a specific psychosexual and parasocial need for women, especially straight or bisexual women who are not conventionally-attractive nubile baddies or not willing to put themselves at extreme risk of harm in exchange for sex.

Look fiction is about fantasy. MM Romance I enjoy. I am a Gay man I have absolutely no problem about it at all. If we all stay in our lane no one learns anything. Money talks and the genre is becoming popular, but Romance is a very particular subset. I wouldn’t get your fucked up about it.

R181,for a woman who wishes to explore she can take her fantasies to HETEROLAND and write about straight men and women all she wants. What the fuck does being a gay man have to do with anything you're describing?

R182, of course we're angry about it, I'm not some fucking straight women's "good Judy" or a fucking circus animal for her entertainment.

Then ,like so much of what is happening now r184 you are sweating the small stuff. Gay people get executed atm in Middle Eastern countries and you are worried about a genre that has wolf shifters falling in love with spider shifters? I mean you get fucking unicorns in this genre and fucking male pregnancy by tentacled beasts and you are worried that women are taking over the male space? Get real.

R181 is onto something. I agree with you.

R181 is making valid points about women, but how does that relate to gay men and what they need and want?