Why was there so much hate for Star Wars 7, 8, and 9?

For all the fuss about how they didn't want to use the expanded universe of the novels because they wanted to do something different, they didn't. The first two are basically remakes of Star Wars and Empire. Harrison is playing Obi Wan in film 7 and Luke is playing Yoda in Last Jedi.

But they're still ten times better than the prequels, which were fucking garbage.

When I compare the acting by Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver, versus that of Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen, there's absolutely no comparison.

Ridley and Driver can act circles around Portman and Christensen. Then Oscar and John added great support, as well as the comedy relief. But not in a silly way.

[quote]OP: I feel like it beat the original 4,5, and 6 simply because the technology was better.

Self-confessions of idiocy aren't that rare, but this is especially direct.

[quote]OP: Why hate bad movie flash flash boom me like me reeeeeeleeee like. Burp.

Because they are lazy remakes of the original trilogy with no consistent vision binding them together. I don’t know how anyone could enjoy Rise of Skywalker. Yes, the acting, film editing, etc. may be superior to what you find in the prequels, but the story is laughably bad. The whole film seems to serve as an apology to those who didn’t like The Last Jedi.

I can write a dissertation on this, as I like many have been a Star Wars nerd since childhood. Anyone who is a true fan wouldn't say 7,8,9 are better than the original trilogy. No way gurl.

Attack of the Clones was the hardest for me to like out of the prequels, long and tedious. But after 20 years I can appreciate it what they tried to do. Rogue One is an amazing movie and the only one that comes close to the originals. 7,8,9 were serviceable action movies, I never need to see them again.

It’s strange that Disney abandoned most of Lucas’s ideas for the sequel trilogy and froze Lucas out. Lucas’s ideas for the prequels were just fine. He just lacked the talent required to properly execute them. He needed better collaborators who could tell him “no” when necessary, and who could help him realize his vision in a better way. JJ Abrams seems to be the opposite of Lucas. He’s like an old Hollywood workhorse director who can competently direct almost anything, but brings few original ideas to the table. I think The Force Awakens might have been a good movie had they allowed Lucas to do a story treatment and advise the production, brought in a competent writer to do the screenplay, and kept Abrams as the paint-by-number director.

[quote] Because they are lazy remakes of the original trilogy with no consistent vision binding them together

I can buy the part about nothing really binding the movies together, but I don't get the part about them being "lazy remakes."

That's just not true, because it's based on the books. So if anything, blame the author and not JJ Abrams.

I applaud Abrams, because he knew what absolutely CRAP 1,2, and 3 were, and how disappointing those movies were to the fans.

So he tried to make 7-9 close to 4-6 in dumping cartoonish feel of 1-3, and making the characters more real and less "Disneyfied."

Episode 9 was so dark and mysterious, and the overall feel of the movie was more dramatic than any of the previous movies.

I think that the fans and the critics would never have been happy with ANY version of Episodes 7-9, to be honest.

JJ Abrams did a fantastic job, the actors did a fantastic job, and I think that people are being overly critical.

r7 = JJ Abrams

It's still absolutely shocking to me that they made those films without first plotting out the entire trilogy. Especially given they'd seen how well that had worked for Marvel. That decision alone should've cost Kathleen Kennedy her job.

R7 what books do you believe the Star Wars movies are based on?

[quote] It's still absolutely shocking to me that they made those films without first plotting out the entire trilogy

Maybe they did, but Carrie Fisher's unexpected death fucked everything up.

Carrie and Mark should have been nominated for Oscars for their work in Last Jedi.

[quote]It's still absolutely shocking to me that they made those films without first plotting out the entire trilogy

They did. The last movie was supposed to be Leia's story, but Fisher sudden passing threw a wrench into those plans. They scrapped most of the story they had, and had to do a quick rewrite.

R12 Rian Johnson disagrees with you:

[quote]Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?

[quote]Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything. [bold]But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall.[/bold] That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. [bold]If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.[/bold]

And all that before Fisher even died, so trying to pin the failings on her death is utterly ridiculous

OP, they were terrible, and you have no taste. Especially that last one.

Ridiculous, scattershot, derivative, and just annoyingly bad.

Interesting, R13.

Maybe it was a good decision to let the writing process take shape like that.

It allowed for flexibility, which actually came in handy with Carrie Fisher's death.

Some people just don't care about logic, reason, consistency, plotting, or anything that makes sense.

Rise of Skywalker was SO FUCKING STUPID you have to have a room-temperature IQ to think it was good.

So much utter stupidity. McGuffins that were pointless. Complete contradictions and inconsistencies. Plot points that make absolutely no sense.

The Rise of Skywalker fails on so many levels, I don't even know if I can cover them all... but I'll try:

With the exception of Oscar Isaac, who is truly charismatic and has star quality, the others were voids. The first film was an inferior rehash of Star Wars and was unnecessary. Bringing the Emperor back was such a fucking lazy cop-out. It was ridiculous and seemed like they weren't even trying.

Nothing will ever be as good as Ford, Fisher and Hamill. They really were magic together. And Darth Vader was such a compelling villain.

What blows my mind is that they didn't have the plots of the three films in the Skywalker Trilogy set in stone before production even began on the first one. Everything should've been mapped out. The fact that they didn't do that and were essentially making it up as they went along is unbelievable. This is the most famous and lucrative franchise in entertainment history, and they were just winging it.

I didn't mind The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi but there is nothing about either of them that makes them stand out except for the Star Wars name. I liked BB8, and I liked Oscar Isaac and John Boyega, but the film didn't know what to do with them and both of them got shafted. Boyega's character was a Stormtrooper and they could have capitalized on that more to better flesh out his character. They didn't. They had him go off with Rose in the next installment as if they were in a different movie.

The Rise of Skywalker was horrible. I think all three prequels were superior to it. I know they had the disadvantage of losing Fisher but it was a lazy retread.

[quote]Maybe it was a good decision to let the writing process take shape like that.

Maybe for another series, but not Star Wars. The original trilogy was brilliant because Lucas painstakingly and carefully thought out the characters and their universe in his mind for years. He then had equally talented visionaries around him like Irvin Kershner and Rick McCallum come behind him to guide it. Marcia Lucas, George's ex-wife masterfully edited down the scenes as well so it was cohesive and easier to follow. That was the magic formula for Star Wars to work. Once that was formula was changed, you got different results. The guys behind the new movies did not have this attention to detail, and were just reacting to things that happened, like Carrie's death. And Im sure Kathy Kennedy knows shit all about storytelling on this level, she is just a corporate robot making sure the movie can fill enough seats.

Which numbers are the original one, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi? Those are the only three I know/care about.

The Empire Strikes Back was Episode 5 and Return of the Jedi was Episode 6.

Episode I - The Phantom Menace (Liam Neeson, Ewan MacGregor, Natalie Portman)

Episode II - The Clone Wars (Natalie Portman, Hayden Christensen, Ewan MacGregor)

Episode III - Revenge of the Sith (Natalie Portman, Hayden Christensen, Ewan MacGregor)

Episode IV - A New Hope (Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, Harrison Ford, Alec Guiness)

Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, Harrison Ford)

Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, Harrison Ford)

Episode VII - The Force Awakens (Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, Oscar Isaac)

Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, Oscar Isaac)

Episode IX - The Last Skywalker (Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, Oscar Isaac)

If I'm not mistaken, Ian McDiarmid appeared in all nine episodes.

Ian McDiarmid only appeared in Return of the Jedi in the original trilogy (although Lucas later inserted him into one of his special special special editions of The Empire Strikes Back). He also only appears in the final film of the sequel trilogy. So he’s in 1,2,3,6, and 9 (and a later version of 5).

The Sequels had no story line. Ruin Johnson’s film was a nasty mess and the worst film I’ve ever seen. Rogue One is far better.

That Han Solo movie is actually pretty good upon rewatch. Why did it bomb?

I really liked the Force Awakens. 50% of the Last Jedi and wish the Rise of Skywalker hadn't felt so rushed. I felt the director tried to undo so much of the Last Jedi that his film got muddled along the way.

Have said that I still prefer Empire Strikes back and the Originals as Top 5 but Revenge of the Sith and The Force Awakens are 2 and 3. Revenge of the Sith stands out amongst the prequels. It was terrific.

r26, I rewatched Solo and liked it less. It bombed because the actor playing Solo was no Harrison Ford. We saw him in The New Hope as youngish Solo, what did we need this guy for.

Yes he is no Harrison Ford, R28. Nobody is...but apart from his rather large head was not that bad. And Woody Harrelson was fun...the storyline was not as stupid as 7-9 either.

And yes the Phantom Menace is blatantly racist. That was pointed out 20 years ago already. The Asian caricatures are especially bad.

[quote] Revenge of the Sith stands out amongst the prequels. It was terrific.

I understand why you liked Revenge of the Sith. It was kind of cool watching the Darth Vader transformation, and the elimination of the Jedi Order, as well as Palpatine's rise to power as the Emperor. I always love the origin stories.

That said, you want to talk about rushed? Episode 3 was MAJORLY rushed. Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader was completely unbelieveable.

At the beginning of the episode, he's saving Obi-Wan's life, and telling his "master" how much he appreciates him. By end of the episode, he's murdering the Jedi and the Younglings, and then going after Obi-Wan. It's ridiculous!

George Lucas wasted a good 15-20 minutes on some stupid space battle scene at the very beginning, ending in the crash landing of a giant space ship. That was SO unnecessary!

They could have used that time to better explain Anakin's change to the dark side!

[quote]Maybe they did, but Carrie Fisher's unexpected death fucked everything up.

It didn't seem to effect anything - they just CGId her into the films. It was very disconcerting.

Solo was TERRIBLE. It should never have been made.

The Architecture on Naboo is something Hitler could have come up with.

Who wrote: “I don’t like sand. It’s coarse and rough and irritating. And it gets everywhere.” ? Poor Hayden.

Don’t forget the very next line, he turns to Padme and says “not at all like you.” Well geez, isn’t this one of the all-time greatest movie romances? She...compares favourably to...sand.

r31. The battle over Coruscant was one of the best action sequences of all the movies. Revenge of the Sith was rushed because Attack of the Clones was a massive waste of movie. They could've included more of Anakin's transition in that movie after he tried to rescue his mother. Instead they got us caught in galactic politics, the clone army, and other shit that took too long figure out.

TBH they wasted time from the beginning by casting Anakin as a young boy instead of as a teenager like Padme was in episode 1. The development of their relationship would've had more time to evolve.

Gen X who grew up with the original trilogy and watched each trilogy at different stages of their life have a different view than the current generation who can view them as a whole.

r31, I've watched the Clone Wars so that is not an issue. It's knowledge I can't erase and it enhances my journey through Revenge of the Sith.

Attack of the Clones is the bottom of the barrel. The Phantom Meance would be okay without Jar Jar and the Cartoonish CGI. Little Anakin was great.

OP is a Disney shill. George Lucas didn't call them "white slavers" for nothing.

because they sucked ass adam driver is hideous and no one likes a whiney villain

The Rise of Skywalker is Impressively Bad

(and the minute at the end of this video is SO on target... the movie sucked because nothing ever mattered.

First trilogy: relatively entertaining sci-fi films

Second trilogy: hilariously bad acting, writing and CGI for the most part, although the second half of Revenge of the Sith is surprisingly compelling

Third trilogy: just so dull. Yes, it's technically better than the previous trilogy, but it's soulless. At least the prequels are unintentionally funny

Little Anakin, the actor, grew up to become a schizophrenic....

coz it's boring as fuck! the blandest of the bland of actors.

[quote] The Architecture on Naboo is something Hitler could have come up with.

It always reminded me of classical Italian architecture.

Weird, because the idiotic Gungans who lived under water, had a much more sophisticated and futuristic sense of architecture.

[quote] Attack of the Clones was a massive waste of movie. They could've included more of Anakin's transition in that movie after he tried to rescue his mother. Instead they got us caught in galactic politics, the clone army, and other shit that took too long figure out.

You're right. Another HUGE wasted opportunity for storytelling.

Instead, we get nearly an hour of Anakin, Padme, and the droids going through a fiery assembly line on that "bug planet" and then another long scene in the bug stadium where they fight off dangerous creatures.

I can't sit through almost the entire second half The Clone Wars because it's just wasted time on silly "action" scenes.

The only part of that movie that is watchable, is when Obi-Wan goes to Camino and discovers the clone army. It's the only part of the movie that has actual storytelling.

[quote] The Phantom Meance would be okay without Jar Jar and the Cartoonish CGI. Little Anakin was great

My favorite thing about Phantom Menace are all the ethnic stereotypes that George Lucas uses for the different species of each planet.

Gungans are Jamaican and not very smart, The Trade Federation are a group of greedy and cowardly asian bankers, and the desert people on Anakin's home of Tatooine are like shrewd Arab slave traders and money counters.

I'm surprised the movie hasn't been canceled because of all the ethnic stereotyping!

There's legitimate criticism of the sequel trilogy, which I've joined in, and then there's the irrational endless ranting hatred, which is coming from the horrible Star Wars fanboys who won't shut up.

I don't really understand why Star Wars attracts horrible fanboys who have devoted their lives to the Dark Side of Trumpism, fascism, racism, sexism, alt-right politics, and contempt for all that is right and good*, but they do. They love Star Wars and won't shut up about it, consider they "own" the franchise, and HATE Disney and the sequel trilogy because they think Disney slapped them in the face by casting a girl and two men who aren't white in the leads. Which is true in a way, Disney refused to cater to those assholes and why should they, so for the past several years they've been acting like spoiled manbabies and are trying to convince the whole world that "everyone" hates the sequel trilogy, that Kathleen Kennedy should lose her job, and that Rian Johnson should be boiled in oil for SPOILER killing Luke.

So while the sequel trilogy is indeed disappointing to an old fan like me, that's where a lot of the complaints about the movies are coming from - these alt-right assholes who don't understand any of the points the original films were intended to make.

[quote] They love Star Wars and won't shut up about it, consider they "own" the franchise, and HATE Disney and the sequel trilogy because they think Disney slapped them in the face by casting a girl and two men who aren't white in the leads.

[quote] Which is true in a way, Disney refused to cater to those assholes and why should they, so for the past several years they've been acting like spoiled manbabies and are trying to convince the whole world that "everyone" hates the sequel trilogy, that Kathleen Kennedy should lose her job, and that Rian Johnson should be boiled in oil for SPOILER killing Luke.

To quote Rose Castorini from the movie "Moonstruck": "Thank you. Thank you for answering my question!"

[quote]It always reminded me of classical Italian architecture.

The Naboo scenes were mostly shot in Italy.

r47 are we politicizing Star Wars now? 🙄

I don't follow these anymore. After a few, they are boring, tired things to watch and are overbearing and preachy with creepy undertones and snail's pace action.

Then I saw the Mandolorian. That by light years is better than all these combined.

[quote]that Kathleen Kennedy should lose her job

She should. A Star Wars film lost money on her watch.

R50 It's what the Disney defenders default to, rather than engage with any of the arguments made. The reaction of those same fanboys to The Mandalorian basically disproves most of the attempted attacks of them being racist or misogynistic, etc.

I loved the original Star Wars, Empire, and Rogue One.

Return of the Jedi is about half a good movie. Even "Solo" is about half a good movie.

The prequel and sequel trilogies are terrible. Just terrible. Complete wastes. They had to TRY to be that bad. And try, they did.

The overarching story of the prequel trilogy is actually quite good and weirdly prescient, given the political quagmire we're in right now. The storytelling was bad, but the narrative was pretty ballsy.

There was NO overarching story to the sequel trilogy, so the rest of it just didn't matter.

The saddest thing, from a business perspective, is that Disney spent an absolute fortune on building Galaxy's Edge in Orlando, which is set in the sequel era. Now, they're stuck with it. The Rise Of The Resistance ride might be the most amazing theme park ride ever. But in a few years, no one will even remember who Kylo Ren and Fin are. Who's going to want to go to a STAR WARS park where there's no hope of seeing Darth Vader?

[quote]But in a few years, no one will even remember who Kylo Ren and Fin are. Who's going to want to go to a STAR WARS park where there's no hope of seeing Darth Vader?

Exactly. As time goes on, the sequel films will fade away. The characters won't be seared into the public consciousness like Luke, Leia, Han and Darth Vader. I doubt that forty years from now anybody will really remember the sequel trilogy.

All the sequel trilogy toys and action figures are marked down in bargain bins and not selling. Because nobody cares. Because the characters weren't PEOPLE they were plot devices. One of the videos up there details this all quite nicely. I think BB-8 is about the only decent thing to come out of the sequel trilogy.

It's sad becaue Poe could have had an amazing arc, and almost did. Finn would have been an amazing character if they'd actually, you know, explored him and used him as they should have (a former Stormtrooper might have inside knowledge and insight into the First Order to help them out... but they almost never exploited that... and in the last movie he did nothing but run around screaming "REY!"). And Rey... the mary-sue that claimed the Skywalker name in spite of the fact she barely even knew or met any Skywalkers, and who was the grandaughter of Palpatine. Bleh. Again, she COULD have been compelling at some point, but again, they just used her as a plot point.

Sigh.

Such a wasted opportunity, and it's all JJ Abraham's fault.

JJ Abrahams, not content with destroying and ruining Star Trek, decided he had to have a go at destroying and ruining Star Wars. He's the kiss of death.

r54 maybe they could retrofit Galaxy's Edge into the original trilogy timeline.

Star Wars sucked.

I was so bored, I fell asleep during the original movie.

R59, that's YOUR problem. The original movie ("A New Hope") was fantastic.

Ironically, Star Wars was created by and starred Boomers, but most Boomers hated it. It was Gen X that made Star Wars into a phenomenon.

We see that right here on DL. The Boomer eldergays hate Star Wars and just never got it at all.

"JJ Abrahams, not content with destroying and ruining Star Trek, decided he had to have a go at destroying and ruining Star Wars. He's the kiss of death."

Yup, he's the biggest problem with the whole shebang! As with "Star Trek", he totally failed to understand what it was that made the original material work.

Pity, there were some good actors and great production design wasted on his godawful scripts.

You can't just blame Abrams, Johnson deserves some blame because he decided to just do his own thing rather than continue on the story from Episode 7. And of course the one who really deserves the blame is Kennedy because she didn't force them to work out the story ahead of time.

When The Force Awakens first came out, there was a long thread explaining why the op thought that "Poe Dameron" was gay.

I had not yet seen the movie, so I didn't know what the discussion was all about.

Now that I look back, that would have been such an awesome storyline.

I think it might actually be an accurate assessment, given that Poe had absolutely no love interest throughout the entirety of his existence in Star Wars.

Here's another "Is Poe Dameron Gay?" thread...

And another...

They shoehorned Keri Russell into the third movie as a completely unnecessary character just to show that Poe was, indeed, fond of pussy. That was the character's only function.

Wait, what R67?

Where in the hell was Kerri Russell in The Rise of Skywalker?

This was Keri Russell

Oh, HER.

I didn't realize that was Keri Russell.

Thanks, R69!

Boring-ass overcooked retreads of the originals, which themselves were just Flash Gordon expys.

Normally I’m no fan of origin movies, but I believe SW is the one exceptional universe where such things work and are necessary, because the world is so sprawling and diverse with complex power exchanges going on all the time. For this reason I think that, rather than sequels or continuations,we needed to see the roots of the Jedi & Sith Orders—go right the way back to Master Phanius, even. I also think fans and casuals alike would have benefitted from seeing the origin stories of Darth Bane, Darth Plageuis, or Darth Sidious/Palpy. These would have been chilling, thrilling lore-rich tales in their own rights, that could also have redeemed and uplifted episodes 1-3 and 4-6. As it is, we only have those stories in the form of light novels and comics at the present time.

[quote]R47 are we politicizing Star Wars now? 🙄

You're late, R50 - with the passing of Episode IX, that party is already pretty much over.

The Sequel Trilogy - Episodes VII, VIII, and IX - were viciously attacked by the emerging alt-right from 4chan and 8chan forums. Incels, gamers, and their fellow internet travelers were triggered by the new storylines' usage of female and minority characters. Russian trolls quickly got in the middle of it, amplifying and instigating hatred for the film franchise; a large part of their motivation was to astroturf and propagate negative opinions of the films in order to stunt their box office take, to harm the American economy generally and the Disney Corporation specifically. The offensive against the Sequel Trilogy was just one front in the larger culture wars the far/alt right were waging against women and minorities on social media. As such, yes, it was highly political.

This is the real answer to OP's question.

The Mandalorian is Star Wars done right. It's the best thing since the original trilogy.

I do have to say that Rogue One was also done right, it was a great movie and really had the feel of the originals.

R50, the people who "politicized" Star Wars, or at least the fandom, are the incel alt-right assholes who attacked the new trilogy for being "woke", and who have conducted a years-long hate campaign against the films and filmmakers.

Regular non-incel people also hated the sequel trilogy. Not because of some racial or sexist thing, just because the films were kind of shit.

There’s actually a character called “Darth Plageuis”?

[quote]Regular non-incel people also hated the sequel trilogy. Not because of some racial or sexist thing, just because the films were kind of shit.

The original films were also 'kind of shit,' R75, if one cared to cast a critical eye on them. The difference was that between 1977 and 1983, there wasn't an internet and social media where trolls could start prairie fires of negative opinion. Oh, negative views could be voiced, but it was much more difficult to get it to catch on.

In 𝐋𝐨𝐭𝐑: 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐓𝐰𝐨 𝐓𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫𝐬 (2002), there's this scene where one of the orcs in the party carrying Merry and Pippin is bitching about nothing to eat but 'maggoty bread', and another one pipes up, "Yeeeaaah! Why can't we have some meat?" And then the unrest spreads. Online crowds are like that, especially on forums like Twitter, Instagram, and Reddit. It's scary how easily they can be stampeded with just the right little voice here and there; a few judiciously chosen re-tweets, and 𝑏𝑎𝑚! It spreads like a virus. QAnon spread that way. And the kicker is, you ask any of them, and they'll all swear that they're independent thinkers, unswayed by anyone.

Darth Plageuis was the Sith Lord who was Palpatine's mentor, who Palpatine killed.

Yes, I know way too much about SW. I swear I don't live in my mother's basement, though!

R77 And what you just described is exactly how wokeism spread too.

The fact you think the original trilogy was shit shows us you're not a Star Wars fan, so you're clearly here with an agenda. And you linked to Vox as a source of truth, which also tells us you're insane.

[quote]The original films were also 'kind of shit,' [R75], if one cared to cast a critical eye on them. The difference was that between 1977 and 1983, there wasn't an internet and social media where trolls could start prairie fires of negative opinion. Oh, negative views could be voiced, but it was much more difficult to get it to catch on.

Not really. SW and ESB were very well-crafted and epic films. Even many critics who weren't normally into sci-fi liked ESB. Great balance between characters and action, and the story was compelling. I WILL give you the Ewoks, though. That was utter shit and dragged down the otherwise good RTJ.

When I saw the Battle of Scarif in Rogue One I thought "THIS is what Lucas should've done at the end of Jedi instead of those fucking Ewoks!" An epic, final battle between the Rebellion and the Empire would've closed off that series of films nicely, instead of annoying teddy bears.

BTW I couldn't give two fucks about Lord Of the Rings anything.

[quote]And what you just described is exactly how wokeism spread too.

Anyone here crying about "wokism", R79, cannot claim not to be pushing an agenda. You're an alt-righter.

[quote]R79: The fact you think the original trilogy was shit shows us you're not a Star Wars fan, so you're clearly here with an agenda.

I saw the first film over a hundred times at the theater during its first year, and never counted how many times I saw the others; many dozens of times, no doubt. I still watch 'Star Wars' related material with great interest, and can probably out-nerd anyone here in that franchise. One does not do that if one isn't a fan.

[quote]R80: Not really. SW and ESB were very well-crafted and epic films.

I have rather a longer view than both of you, evidently. I remember what was said of the OT at the times of their releases. It was mostly true, but if one 𝑙𝑖𝑘𝑒𝑠 a film, one doesn't care.

When the attacks began on the Prequel Trilogy, it was then that I realized how shallow were the criticisms, and without any basis in fact as opposed to the OT. Pretty much everything people cried about in the PT was also true of the OT, awful, cringe-worthy dialogue and all. 'Star Wars' has always been that way. They just didn't remember it. It became clear that they weren't thinking critically, or doing any realistic comparison; it was all received opinion, being propagated in fan circles.

Same thing here.

[quote]BTW I couldn't give two fucks about Lord Of the Rings anything.

You cannot flame me, R81; you're wasting your effort. I don't do outrage. But by all means, knock yourself out. These antics are simply validating the argument I've presented.

[quote]I WILL give you the Ewoks, though. That was utter shit and dragged down the otherwise good RTJ.

I never really cared for Episode VI; it was my least favorite of the OT, and for any number of reasons besides the Ewoks. Even now I facepalm in pain over the Ewoks' celebration song, which repeated the name of the Judeo-Christian god, Yahweh over and over (and I have no doubt that was deliberate on the part of Lucasfilm, which worked all sorts of recognizable words into its alien languages, especially Spanish in the Huttese).

At the time, I placed the blame on Lucasfilm's increasing reliance upon focus groups and test audience response; IO have always held that listening to fandom is appealing to the lowest common denominator, and always yields mediocrity.

[quote]When I saw the Battle of Scarif in Rogue One I thought "THIS is what Lucas should've done at the end of Jedi instead of those fucking Ewoks!" An epic, final battle between the Rebellion and the Empire would've closed off that series of films nicely, instead of annoying teddy bears.

That might well be the case, R80. But if they had done that, it would mean that Lucasfilm would have had to wait until 2016 in order to finish out the Original Trilogy, which was when the technology was sufficiently developed to make something like 'Rogue One' possible.

I don't think I would have been willing to wait that long.

[quote]I have rather a longer view than both of you, evidently. I remember what was said of the OT at the times of their releases.

Of course critics at the time the films were originally released were not, for the most part, going to like them. This was something they just would instinctively not be interested in given their ages. John Simon, for example, destroyed A New Hope upon release. Putting aside the fact that John Simon was a raging asshole, he was also from my grandparents' generation. Nobody from that generation had the slightest interest in Star Wars and were perplexed at what all the fuss was about.

[quote]You cannot flame me, [R81]; you're wasting your effort. I don't do outrage. But by all means, knock yourself out. These antics are simply validating the argument I've presented.

a) I don't care and b) no they are not. The argument you presented is biased and flawed based on your own narrative.

[quote] They just didn't remember it. It became clear that they weren't thinking critically, or doing any realistic comparison; it was all received opinion, being propagated in fan circles.

Star Wars: A New Hope is a vastly better film than The Phantom Menace. That is not "received opinion." It would be like saying The Bridge On the River Kwai isn't any better than a shit John Wayne film set in WWII because, well, they're both WWII movies.

[quote]But if they had done that, it would mean that Lucasfilm would have had to wait until 2016 in order to finish out the Original Trilogy, which was when the technology was sufficiently developed to make something like 'Rogue One' possible.

They could've done it the same way they did the space battle over Endor. The tech was different, but they could've done it.

Yes, R84 - one of the more influential critics at the time - Judith Crist - was completely immolated on the pyre of her having flamed 'Star Wars' (1977).

But there were other inconsistencies and issues that emerged over time - 'parsec' as a measure of distance rather than time is one of the original groaners. But, as I remarked, a lot of the complaints leveled against the PT are equally valid against the OT - it's just that OT fans don't recognize it.

For all that I've said about the Sequel Trilogy and the way it was subjected to organized online attack, I don't have much to say about it in defense of its particulars. The ST left me cold; I saw each of them only once in the theaters, and although I've collected them on home media, I've never cracked any of them open and re-watched them. Once was enough.

However critical I am of them, absolutely 𝑛𝑜𝑛𝑒 of my criticisms have anything to do with what the alt-right/Russian buffalo stampede cry about. 𝑁𝑜𝑛𝑒.

I don't like sand.

[quote] 'parsec' as a measure of distance rather than time is one of the original groaners. But, as I remarked, a lot of the complaints leveled against the PT are equally valid against the OT - it's just that OT fans don't recognize it.

Incorrect. The criticisms leveled against the PT are based on a weak plot and uninspired characters. Also, too many characters. That's the crux of it. And the parsec thing is just ridiculous nitpicking and has nothing to do with the films overall.

[quote]Star Wars: A New Hope is a vastly better film than The Phantom Menace. That is not "received opinion." It would be like saying The Bridge On the River Kwai isn't any better than a shit John Wayne film set in WWII because, well, they're both WWII movies.

Apples and oranges, R86. Citing two David Lean films (say, '𝐁𝐫𝐢𝐝𝐠𝐞' and '𝐋𝐚𝐰𝐫𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞') would be the better, more apt comparison. 'Star Wars' (1977) and 'Phantom Menace' are both by Lucas.

[quote]They could've done it the same way they did the space battle over Endor. The tech was different, but they could've done it.

R87, but badly. The Space Battle at Endor isn't like you remember it - it was fixed in the late 1990s. Originally, it was peppered with mistakes, overlaps, and the images of dozens of traveling mattes. They tended not to attempt what they knew they weren't up to doing. In 1983, they wouldn't have attempted what you saw in 'Rogue One.'

[quote]Incorrect. The criticisms leveled against the PT are based on a weak plot and uninspired characters. Also, too many characters. That's the crux of it.

That's an extremely subjective opinion, R90. And it reflects pretty much word for word what's passed around among the haters, who don't realize they're passing on received opinion. It's also another of those criticism which can (and has been) leveled against the OT.

The OT has just as many characters. You just don't remember them all.

[quote]And the parsec thing is just ridiculous nitpicking and has nothing to do with the films overall.

What are we discussing here, R90, the flaws of one film at a time, or 'films overall'? One cannot move back and forth between them in order to favor one's own position. The 'parsec thing' is a flaw of the first film, one of many. If this were the bible we were discussing, it would explode inerrancy. And it's one of many.

The OT are not perfect. They have the same flaws as the PT.

[quote]The Space Battle at Endor isn't like you remember it - it was fixed in the late 1990s. Originally, it was peppered with mistakes, overlaps, and the images of dozens of traveling mattes. They tended not to attempt what they knew they weren't up to doing. In 1983, they wouldn't have attempted what you saw in 'Rogue One.'

Back then it didn't matter because people didn't know any different. They definitely would've done a battle like that if they'd thought of it.

[quote]The OT are not perfect. They have the same flaws as the PT.

The OT are much better-made films with a much better cast. You 'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would say the OT and PT have the same flaws.

[quote]The OT has just as many characters. You just don't remember them all.

Not main characters

"When I saw the Battle of Scarif in Rogue One I thought "THIS is what Lucas should've done at the end of Jedi instead of those fucking Ewoks!" An epic, final battle between the Rebellion and the Empire would've closed off that series of films nicely, instead of annoying teddy bears."

"That might well be the case, [R80]. But if they had done that, it would mean that Lucasfilm would have had to wait until 2016 in order to finish out the Original Trilogy, which was when the technology was sufficiently developed to make something like 'Rogue One' possible."

What made the battle in "Rogue One" stand out wasn't just the special effects, it was the fact that we CARED about all the characters involved... or at least the Rebel characters. We cared because the script had establish that they were total amateurs or pros carried away by a burst of enthusiasm and that they were in waaaay over their heads, we cared because the actors had made us like the people on the screen. We cared because the film's editors made us feel every shot fired and every step on an unsteady surface over a great height, because we expected some of the rag-tag double rebels to get away, etc. None of that required too much special effects, what it required was good writing, directing, editing, and acting, and Lucas can pull that sort of thing off when he's on his game, no matter what kind of special effects he has available.

Of course state-of-the-art special effects are always fun and I'm happy to pay to see them, but they don't make a film entertaining in themselves. There's got to be someone to care about in the mix, and R1 did a much better job of that than the sequel trilogy, or "RotJ" for that matter. That film has disappointed me since 1983.

[quote]That's an extremely subjective opinion

That's the universal consensus, dear.

I can't believe you're saying the OT and the PT have the same flaws. Please.

[quote]That's the universal consensus, dear.

There is no such thing, dear.

[quote]I can't believe you're saying the OT and the PT have the same flaws. Please.

It's an objective observation, R94. And that's by looking at the criticisms leveled at the PT, like the "Nooooo!" which appeared in all six films.

I remember when the alt-right asshole Star Wars fanboys spent 5-10 years bashing the Prequel films, and screaming that "GEORGE LUCAS RUINED MY CHILDHOOD" and devoting all their spare time to ranting about how Lucas was the worst human being who ever lived, because the prequel films weren't as good as the original ones.

Same assholes as today, with the same misplaced anger, and a failure to understand any of the original films' philosophy, even though they'd seen the films about ten billion times each. If those dicks lived in a Luke-era SW galaxy, they'd be proud supporters of Emperor Palpatine, and cheer whenever his minions succeeded in killing some rebels.

I concur, R96.

The universal consensus is that the original trilogy is much better than the others. You'd have to be blind not to know that.

r96 it wasn't just alt-right assholes who hated the original trilogy, it was pretty much everyone. They were widely panned and people were terribly disappointed.

Revenge of the Sith was a good film, though, in my opinion. The first two were shit.

[quote] You'd have to be blind not to know that.

And you'd have to be blind not to know that there's no such thing as 'universal consensus,' R98. Nor can you elevate your own opinion to that level.

[quote]...we CARED... we cared... we cared... We cared....

In R93, there's that '𝑤𝑒' shit so characteristic of trollsock clusters, who always like to pretend that they alone posting with a few sock accounts constitute a '𝑤𝑒'. :D

There's really just one of you carrying that hate water.

PoisonedDragon you are not right about this, sorry. You're actually wrong about a LOT. From your other posts, you are obviously a very damaged and unhappy individual and just because you say something is factual does not make it so.

Back to Star Wars: You cannot say the OT has just as many flaws as the other trilogies. Literally no one would agree with that. There's a reason those films are still famous after 40 years and still a part of the cultural consciousness. The Skywalker Triology and the Prequel Trilogy aren't even close.

"...we CARED... we cared... we cared... We cared...."

"In [R93], there's that '𝑤𝑒' shit so characteristic of trollsock clusters, who always like to pretend that they alone posting with a few sock accounts constitute a '𝑤𝑒'. :"

By "we" I meant the people who liked "Rogue One", who are numerous. If you aren't included in that group you're excused with my thanks, because I'd hate to be a part of any group which includes you as a member. Seriously, you're coming off as an asshole on this thread.

From R101's output to this thread:

[quote]What blows my mind is that they didn't have the plots of the three films in the Skywalker Trilogy set in stone before production even began on the first one. Everything should've been mapped out.

The Original Trilogy was made that same way, piecemeal. Decisions that affected the course of the entire saga were made last minute, from film to film.

[quote]You're actually wrong about a LOT.

Sounds like you have other issues with me. Probably religion. How many socks do you run?

[quote] From your other posts, you are obviously a very damaged and unhappy individual and just because you say something is factual does not make it so.

I'm happier than you, that much is apparent. And when I talk 'facts,' I back it up with sources.

[quote]There's a reason those films are still famous after 40 years and still a part of the cultural consciousness. The Skywalker Triology and the Prequel Trilogy aren't even close.

Even the material you admire, like 'The Mandalorian' and 'Rogue One' are irrevocably informed by the storylines and characters laid down in the Prequel Trilogy. That cannot be denied. The PT is part of Star Wars canon, permanently.

It seems odd to me that you defend the PT at R96, and then dump on it at R101.

[quote]By "we" I meant the people who liked "Rogue One", who are numerous. If you aren't included in that group you're excused with my thanks, because I'd hate to be a part of any group which includes you as a member. Seriously, you're coming off as an asshole on this thread.

The sense in which you intended '𝑤𝑒' was not at all clear in your post at R93; it seemed more characteristic of the rhetorical '𝑤𝑒' which trolls use to make themselves seem representative of a larger group. Pretending to be a constituent of some larger 'consensus' is a poor argument. If that's not what you were doing, I'm glad, and you have my apology, R102.

Lol R3. My thoughts exactly.

I didn’t hate them per se, although I felt the very last movie in the series was pretty underwhelming. But they just weren’t much fun, which I think is one of the three major problems with the prequels as well. (The other two being bad writing, and an absurd overemphasis on effects to tell the story.)

But I don’t think anything in the prequels or sequels comes close to the entertainment of the first and second movie. By Return of the Jedi it was already clear that entertainment was taking a back seat in the Star Wars films.

Thank you for the apology, Poison, it does make me think better of you.

But seriously, learn to pick your battles instead of arguing over every little point everyone makes. It makes for better discourse all around.

[quote]The Original Trilogy was made that same way, piecemeal. Decisions that affected the course of the entire saga were made last minute, from film to film.

Not true. George Lucas wrote the story of the Darth Vader and fleshed out the other characters in the early 70s. When it was time for him to create the actual script it, became way too long and he decided he would need to split it into three chapters. Of course changes were made along the way, but he developed the overarching themes and story years before the rest of the saga was made or even successful.

That's the way the sequels should have been. Darth Vader was the central part of the Star Wars saga and George brilliantly developed that character. Rey was not well developed and they took too long to reveal whose daughter she was, even that was kind of lame.

Was Finn supposed to be a up-and-coming Jedi, in Episode 9?

He kept talking about The Force, and how he just "had a feeling." Those are things Leia said, before she found out she was a Skywalker.

[quote] There’s actually a character called “Darth Plageuis”?

Chancellor Palpatine told Anakin a brief version of the story in Episode 3, Revenge of the Sith.

They were sitting in the balcony at some sort of performance show, and the Chancellor started telling Anakin about "Darth Plagueis the Wise," who was killed by his apprentice.

He was the one who learned the secret of how to "cheat death."

As I understood the scene, Chancellor Palpatine was the apprentice who killed Darth Plagueis.

Because they aren’t very good. The prequels suck, too. I only like the original first two films. Star Wars (1977) an The Empire Strikes Back (1980).

Rogue One is in the same category as those two, R111.

Everything wrong with the Prequel trilogy can be laid at the feet of George Lucas. Nobody would say no to him, like they did for the original trilogy.

Reminder: the original cut of the first "Star Wars" movie (which would become "A New Hope") was dreadful. The movie was saved by bringing in a new editor who completely cut tons of scenes, and re-did the entire third act.

Everything wrong with the Sequel trilogy can more or less be laid at the feet of JJ Abrahams. He's terrible. He really is. I wish people would figure this out. Everything bad about these movies, from the horrible plotting to the shallow characters to the wanking fan-service is all on him. Johnson, for whatever it's worth, at least introduced interesting ideas, even though the movie itself wasn't that good. Abrahams offered zero new ideas.

[quote] Johnson’s film was a nasty mess and the worst film I’ve ever seen.

Oh come on. Exaggerate much?

So what's with the Abrahams thing? Is it another thing DL tries to convince itself is funny, or is that poster just an idiot?

And again, Kathleen Kennedy is at fault. She had all the power, she could've controlled Abrams and Johnson, but chose not to.

As much as anything, SW now seems to be about selling merchandise & new rides at Disney; it doesn't help that the story telling was sloppy & leads boring who have gone on to diss their roles in SW. It's a mess

You l how, some of the Star Wars stuff produced on Kennedy's watch has been top notch, like R1 and Mandalorian. Some has been middling, including the trilogy films, and some has been "Solo". That's about what I'd expect, Sturgeon's Law being what it is.

Still, Kennedy did make the single biggest mistake of the new franchise - bringing back Abrams for a 2nd film. Oy. The fans are calling him Jar-Jar instead of JJ.

OP, which part of The Last Jedi did you enjoy most?

(A) Finn fighting the empire by riding a horse on a star destroyer.

(B) The convenient yet highly improbable return of Palpatine, waiting in the shadows for 30 years, inexplicably building another empire fleet underground (despite the New Order already being around).

(C) The unrelatable and 1-dimensional Rey, who really never had to push herself or even experience failure once during the entire trilogy.

OMG, so many reasons to love the last trilogy, it's agonizing!

Rogue One is the best Star Wars movie.

I think you mean Rise Of Skywalker, r118. Agreed, it’s execrable.

R110 don’t forget—Plageuis was also the Sith Lord who seduced Palpatine to the Dark Side, by manipulating Palpy to murder his entire family in cold blood. Now, arguably Palps was already a sociopath politically-estranged from his family, but he still needed a major push to go full dark, and Plagueis was it. Though the chilling part was, Sheev really didn’t need half as much cajoling and manipulating and threatening as Anakin, Maul or Dooku did...

R76 there is also a Darth Millennial.

He was a three-eyed mutant with clairvoyant powers. He left the Sith after disputing with his Master Cognus over the Rule Of Two, and founded his own organisation known as The Dark Force. He eventually declared himself a Prophet, leader of dissident Sith.

[quote] SW now seems to be about selling merchandise & new rides at Disney; it doesn't help that the story telling was sloppy & leads boring who have gone on to diss their roles in SW

Did they really diss their roles? I don't believe it. They wouldn't do that to their careers.

Link, please!

R118, those are minor points which can easily be overlooked.

The problem with super fans is that they expect perfection and absolute continuity in these sequel types of movies.

Star Wars has had NINE episodes over the course of 42 years. Of course there's going to be some discontinuity and lapses in storytelling.

They have had so many different directors, storytellers, and changes in technology. It's almost a given that things will be messed up.

But fan boys are nuts, and incapable of being rational.

I prefer the sequel and og trilogy.

The prequels are terrible. Uniformly terrible.

[quote]Reminder: the original cut of the first "Star Wars" movie (which would become "A New Hope") was dreadful. The movie was saved by bringing in a new editor who completely cut tons of scenes, and re-did the entire third act.

Exactly. The original cut movie was too long and complicated. After they edited the hell out of the movie it was a hit.

Don’t kid yourself, women hate the Disney trilogy as well. And they’re not fooling anyone by claiming “the force is female“ if they’re willing to fire a woman for standing up for women’s sex-based rights.

OP, when will you stop shilling for a corporation that has actively cooperated in religious genocide in Communist China?

[quote]there is also a Darth Millennial

He was, of course, most famous for complaining that the Sith didn't value his opinions and were super mean to him. He saw his treatment by the Sith Lord as an act of literal violence. Ironically he was killed by a Jedi Knight in an act of literal-literal violence.

[quote]Everything wrong with the Prequel trilogy can be laid at the feet of George Lucas. Nobody would say no to him, like they did for the original trilogy.

Nobody had the power to say no to him. Anyone who had tried would likely have been fired. He reached the point where he valued world-building over storytelling, and it showed. But Disney didn't make it better. They only made it worse. Their films are sterile and derivative knockoffs of the originals that only have a superficial understanding of why they worked. It is unforgivable that they pissed away their last chance to reunite Han, Luke, Leia, and Lando in the same scene like Carrie Fisher pissed away oceans of martinis.

I have no desire to see any of these films (I'm still having nightmares from the prequels) but this thread makes it sound like Rogue One might be worth checking out. Unfortunately I can't stand that Felicity Jones woman.

I actually liked The Last Jedi, despite the backlash.

r131 Rogue One is absolutely worth watching. It really got me back into Star Wars after the sequels left me cold. Great, great movie that is as good as A New Hope, you'll want to watch it more than once.

Rogue One is the only Disney Star Wars film that's any good.

I like Rogue One just for Diego Luna.

He's so sexy.

Diego + Riz Ahmed 😍

The entire cast of Rogue One was great. Like the above posters said, you really cared about these characters. It's definitely a Star Wars film you can watch again, instead of the Skywalker Trilogy which most people were "one and done" with.

R129 you jest but that is *literally* what actually happened😷

ROGUE ONE is great for those who love the original movies, and those who love the Empire period of SW canon. Good for them.

Why is it inconceivable and revolting that some prefer the Old Republic period, and ergo find something to like about the prequels? Some of us don’t care about TIE fighters or stormtroopers. Not saying the PTs are groundbreaking cinema or without faults, but it is a bit ridiculous and hyperbolic to say they’re all execrable garbage and that the OT are the greatest films ever made. Come on, now.

Much of this really does come down to character and time period preferences, but no-one wants to admit it because then there’s no pretext to argue.

[quote]those are minor points which can easily be overlooked.

No, they aren't R124. The movie is complete shit, and if you don't agree, you're a fucking moron with no taste. Seriously.

[quote]Star Wars has had NINE episodes over the course of 42 years. Of course there's going to be some discontinuity and lapses in storytelling.

The problem with that statement for the sequel trilogy is Lucasfilm have a team of people whose only job is to make sure there is no discontinuity. And Disney even made the entire book universe non-canon to help them out even more with this.

[quote] And Disney even made the entire book universe non-canon to help them out even more with this

Can you explain this, R141?

How can they make something non-canon, if it's part of the original story.

Once an author puts a story out there, it becomes canon. So how can Disney make it "non-canon?"

[quote] Disney even made the entire book universe non-canon to help them out

R141 imo that was a big mistake. Some of the novels and comics were fantastically-written, and by the 2010s had collectively managed to sort out most of the continuity errors in Episodes I-VI with inventiveness. Even the biggest detractors of the PT could be found enjoying and praising the literature based on it.

Disney dismantled so much lore and so much work, just to make the product ‘theirs’ and have an easier life. Fuck them, and their neutered cashgrab movies.

Every single Star Wars movie has a POV sequence where the audience actually felt like they were on whatever vehicle was moving. The falcon through the asteroid field, the xwings in the trench, the pod racers, etc. 7,8,9 I feel didn't have any. In fact, those moments were what inspired Star Tours at Disney. When I was a kid, those were some of the best parts of Star Wars...this feeling that you were along for the ride.

This is my first time chiming in here, but I'm a huge Star Wars nerd and can maybe out nerd some of you. As for the claim that the use of "parsec" was a mistake in ANH, Lucas is on record saying that he wrote it on purpose because he wanted to show that Han was a bull shitter. That's why Obi Wan looks at him the way he does in the cut right after he says it. He's knows he's full of shit.

R142 I'm not sure what needs to be explained. In 2014 Disney announced that with the exception of the (then) six films and the Clone Wars series, everything else was no longer canon. Meaning future stories would ignore it all and not be encumbered by needing to maintain continuity with it.

[quote] with the exception of the (then) six films and the Clone Wars series, everything else was no longer canon

[quote] Meaning future stories would ignore it all and not be encumbered by needing to maintain continuity with it

Well thank you for explaining that R145, because it's the first that I've ever heard of such a thing. Honestly.

I always just assumed that you write a story, you make a movie, and it becomes canon automatically.

You can't just say, okay, here's part 7, 8 and 9 - BUT - just ignore everything we're telling you about the characters, because it has nothing to do with previous episodes.

WHAT?? That makes no fucking sense. I certainly don't buy it, and neither will millions of others.

If you put it out there, then it automatically becomes part of the story.

This is what I hate about Hollywood. They're just so chickenshit. It's like when you're a kid playing a game like "tag," and you're about to get tagged so you scream "if I touch the tree, I'm safe!" You just make your own bullshit rules, when you're about to get tagged.

That's exactly what Disney is doing, and I'm not buying it.

As far as I'm concerned, episodes 7, 8, and 9 are CANON.

[quote]As far as I'm concerned, episodes 7, 8, and 9 are CANON.

Yes, they are. That's not in dispute. As I said, this announcement was made in 2014 ahead of the sequel trilogy being released. The announcement was in regards to the vast number of novels, comic books, video games and so on which had previously formed part of the expanded universe.

This thread has become a toxic nerd meltdown. The shame!

PoisonedDragon needs to be in a mental institution.

[quote] Meaning future stories would ignore it all and not be encumbered by needing to maintain continuity with it.

Just like [italic]The Golden Girls[/italic]. At least Disney actually made that themselves instead of just buying out the production company.

OP there is still far more frothing nerdcel ire over Episodes 1-3, undeservedly at this point.

EPISODE IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER: How bungled did this actually get? What's with all the slap-dash editing? Could they have chilled with those death fake-outs? And how did the Emperor get stuck in one of those claw machines you find in the lobby of a Bennigans?

R145, I'm just going to have to assume you'd somehow never heard of the "Star Wars Expanded Universe", which consisted of literally HUNDREDS of books and comics that detailed everything that went on after "Return of the Jedi". Disney declared all those books and comics "non-Canon" and renamed it all "Star Wars Legends", so they could create the sequel trilogy without following what happened to Luke, Leah, and Han in any of those, and thus write their own story.

Turns out that was a terrible idea.

Is the Genddy Tartarkovsky Clone Wars series considers canon? I'm finally watching it on Disney+ and it’s pretty cool, almost like a Japanese anime.

In terms of good things Disney has done (in addition to The Mandalorian and Rogue One), I'd add Rebels and the final stretch of Filoni's Clone Wars.

When are they going to decanonize the direct-to-video cash grab sequels to the animated classics?

Read several of those novels back in the day, they were pretty good.

Many EU exclusive characters like Revan, Darth Bane, Master Luminara & her Padawan Barriss, Jax Pavan, Bria Tharen, Grand Admiral Thrawn, and Mara Jade were more complex and interesting by far than the Disney additions.

The prequels and the sequels had the exact opposite problems.

Prequels: interesting ideas, terrible execution Sequels: boring ideas, talented execution

Original Trilogy

Disney Spinoffs

Prequel Trilogy

Sequel Trilogy

I think there would be less vitriol if the Expanded Universe established by the HUNDREDS of books was allowed to continue as an alternate timeline. Hell, how many versions of Batman and Superman are there?

As mentioned above, the characters in the EU were much more fleshed out than the Disney characters.

But it is a question of how Disney managed to fuck up a simple trilogy when the Marvel universe has been able to balance 20+ movies?

They screwed the pooch by firing Gina Carano.

The show will be fine without Gina Carano.

R153 You repeated what I said, so I have no idea why you're suggesting I'd never heard of the expanded universe when I literally mentioned it.

R154 Yes, Clone Wars remains canon. It's the only non-film element at the time of the announcement which is.

R159 By putting Kathleen Kennedy in charge. I'm half convinced Lucas knew she'd fuck it up and that's why he demanded she replace him as head of Lucasfilm.

No, R160. They screwed the pooch by hiring that anti-semetic bigoted white supremacist Trumpster cunt in the first place.

[quote]You repeated what I said, so I have no idea why you're suggesting I'd never heard of the expanded universe when I literally mentioned it.

It was a typo, and should have been obvious that I was referring to R146. You know, the clueless one who actually said:

[quote]Well thank you for explaining that [R145], because it's the first that I've ever heard of such a thing. Honestly.

"Disney declared all those books and comics "non-Canon" and renamed it all "Star Wars Legends", so they could create the sequel trilogy without following what happened to Luke, Leah, and Han in any of those, and thus write their own story. Turns out that was a terrible idea."

No, it wasn't a terrible idea, it was a reasonable idea with poor execution.

I admit I haven't read all the Star Wars fan-fiction books, because I just wasn't impressed with the ones I did read. Accepting the books as Canon would greatly limit what the Disney writers could do, there could be no surprises regarding the characters from the original film because all the nerds would know all about it and post spoilers fucking everywhere, because as previously noted there's a large number of assholes among Star Wars nerds. It's just a shame they couldn't come up with a story that wasn't better than all those boring books.

I tried a few of the Star Wars novels and found them lackluster.

R165 I'm not saying Disney had to keep them as canon, but they could've continued the "Legends" timeline as something separate. Plenty of IPs have multiple "universes". The first thing Disney did was cancel every book and series in the works. And then they replaced them with the "meh" of the sequels.

Why the Star Wars Prequels are more relevant today than ever

Disney Doesn't Understand Lightsabers

Is Anakin a Mary Sue?

Spielberg: Kathleen Kennedy was horrible at taking notes and terrible at her job

George Lucas betrayed by Kathleen Kennedy

Why Hollywood hates George Lucas

What George is saying is what Disney and Lucasfilm don’t get. Star Wars is more than just special effects, space ships flying, shooting laser guns and laser swords while also having the force as a mystical energy. There’s various influences from film and literature that Lucas took inspiration from as well as religious elements put into the films from Christianity to Buddhism. Disney and Lucasfilm just see surface level stuff with the franchise and don’t try to do anything more than that.

Exactly r174. Its a shame that with all the resources available Disney didn't approach the sequels knowing that the original trilogy connected with audiences so intensely because the story Lucas told was based on old tales, scripture and character types that have been around forever. George took 3-4 years to develop the first trilogy. He started writing Phantom Menace in 1994. Im sure the sequels were done haphazardly in a few months and changed direction every couple of weeks based upon whatever Kennedy felt at the time.

Another reason why the first Star Wars worked so well was Alec Guinness. He played Obi Wan like he was playing Shakespeare. For an old-school classically trained actor like him, and also just from the era and generation he was from, the script must've looked fairly ridiculous but he gave it 100% and added a lot of gravitas to the film. He was brilliant.

Well that's the thing, Lucas is "The Worst Actor's Director Alive", so the only good performances you get in Lucas's Star Wars films are from the old pros who don't need direction.

Ian McDiarmuid was fucking brilliant in the prequels! There's no acting on that level in the Disney films, but there's also nobody as bad as Hayden Christiansen.

[quote] He started writing Phantom Menace in 1994

Wow, I didn't know that. I thought there were books already in place, that Lucas turned into movies.

No wonder Revenge of the Sith tied in so closely with George W. Bush's presidency.

There were so many digs against W's presidency, taken by Lucas in ROTS. "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."

Revenge of the Sith was completely a snapshot of American politics at the time.

The best thing about the sequels is Adam Driver/Kylo Ren. Good acting, strong presence and big, tall, swole body.

R165 They weren't fanfic, they were officially published novels, fully licensed and approved by Lucasfilm.

And the Red Wedding in Game of Thrones still came as a surprise in spite of all the nerds knowing about that.

"The best thing about the sequels is Adam Driver/Kylo Ren"

I disagree, I thought he was the worst thing. I couldn't stand the character or Driver's portrayal of him, I thought he was a whiny 13-year-old in a man's body and wanted to slap him throughout. Not scary, not sympathetic, basically small and immature under the mask, and they to pull this bad-good-bad-good-bad plot twist thing with him, when I could never think of him as anything but bad after what he did in the first film, and absolutely hated the idea of Han and Leia having their lives ruined by being stuck with such a twat.

I thought Ridley as Rey was the best thing about the new trilogy, Ridley made the character vibrant, alive, and likable, even if the writing was so half-assed I was feeling sorry for her by the third film. I also liked Finn and Poe, but they were also fucked over by the writers.

[quote] The best thing about the sequels is Adam Driver/Kylo Ren. Good acting, strong presence and big, tall, swole body.

I agree. There is something incredibly sexy about Adam Driver, even though I think he's unattractive.

He's like the definition of ugly/hot.

His features are all out of proportion, but his height and his body make up for it.

[quote] I couldn't stand the character or Driver's portrayal of him, I thought he was a whiny 13-year-old in a man's body and wanted to slap him throughout. Not scary, not sympathetic, basically small and immature under the mask, and they to pull this bad-good-bad-good-bad plot twist thing with him, when I could never think of him as anything but bad after what he did in the first film

That was kind of the point.

He was supposed to be a confused little boy in a man's body. Even Snoke called him a "child."

In Kylo Ren's case, his character was supposed to be that way. Confused, conflicted, full of doubt, yet putting on a brave show. So Adam Driver portrayed the character how he was supposed to.

In Anakin Skywalker's case, he was NOT supposed to be that way. But Hayden played him that way. Or he was directed that way. I'm not sure. But that's why people were really upset with Hayden and his acting. He really ruined this complex character of Anakin Skywalker.

I do hope someday we get a real account of what went wrong with the sequel "trilogy". There's so much back and forth and guesswork by bloggers.

Finding out that the first draft of the prequels were MUCH better than Lucas' later ideas and there was nobody to tell him no...interesting.

[quote]He was supposed to be a confused little boy in a man's body. Even Snoke called him a "child."

Which was stupid and the last thing Star Wars needed. They needed a badass villain like Vader.

All of this:

It's not like Star Wars hasn't flown by the seat of its pants before. For that, we need to look no further than the original Star Wars trilogy. The original trilogy had Obi-Wan Kenobi telling Luke Skywalker that Darth Vader killed his father, only to learn in the next movie that Vader was his father. We know from early drafts of the movie that we've seen that the Vader/Anakin Skywalker connection wasn't in Lucas' original idea, so this changed as things went along.

However, in this case, I feel that can be forgiven to some extent for the simple fact that in 1977, there was no guarantee there would ever be more than one Star Wars movie. Even once more movies were given the go-ahead, while each movie in that trilogy has different screenwriters and different directors, the work is all based on the story by George Lucas. Each of those films have their own unique aspects to them, but the story largely works, sibling tongue kiss notwithstanding.

The screenwriters and directors were still able to put their own stamp on the material, but the basic story that was being told was given to them. The trilogy still feels cohesive, even if there are some plot inconsistencies within it.

The Prequel Trilogy, of course, is a whole other story. For better or worse, George Lucas had complete and absolute control. He handled all aspects of creating the trilogy and while the Prequel Trilogy is certainly not without issues, a coherent throughline in the plot is not one of them. Every piece of the puzzle fits together, almost to a fault. Answers are given to questions nobody actually had. There are some pieces that conflict when bumped up against the Original Trilogy, but as a trilogy itself, the Prequels work, and it's clear George Lucas knew what he wanted going in.

This trilogy didn't need to go that far, but it could have simply done something like the Original Trilogy. Lucasfilm could have hired one person, or a couple people, to put together the trilogy's story up front. Then that story could be handed to whatever screenwriters and directors Lucasfilm wanted to make the movies. They wouldn't have total freedom, but they'd have some, and everybody would be working toward a common goal.

[quote] The original trilogy had Obi-Wan Kenobi telling Luke Skywalker that Darth Vader killed his father, only to learn in the next movie that Vader was his father.

Ugh this always bugged me, as well as the scene in Return of the Jedi when the group is captured by the Ewoks.

Luke asks Leia "Tell me about your mother." And Leia replies, "I don't know much about her. She died when I was very young. But she was very beautiful."

Bitch, she died at childbirth! You never met her!

These are the inconsistencies that drive me nuts.

I think Revenge of the Sith should've been the first movie in the prequel trilogy, followed by two movies showing how the Empire dominated the galaxy and the birth of the Rebel Alliance. We could've had the Emperor, Vader and the Empire in all three movies. That would've been kickass.

Nobody really gave a shit about Anakin Skywalker's childhood, that could've been told in one flashback scene and they'd be done with it.

R187 sexy idea. I’m into it.

Just a personal preference, but I’m not even necessarily mad at meeting pre-Jedi young Ani on Tatooine, provided that he’s not a prodigious 10 year old Messianic ‘child slave’, but rather a dirt-poor downhome low-class and amoral 17 year old gearhead/grease monkey/gonzo pilot (referencing AMERICAN GRAFFITI, maybe?). This tuff is of no particular note, though unknowingly fairly strong in the Force—occasionally his reflexes and his physical power seem a little alarming and people remark with derision and susipicion on it, but whatever, right?

One fine day, he & Sebulba (don’t look at me look, I just like him, ok) laughingly watch Qui/Obi make a rough landing outside the junkyard where they work, and something moves the usually-delinquent and avoidant roughneck Ani to actually offer and attempts to fix/refuel the Jed’aii cruiser. Now, Ani has a lot of basic pragmatic chopshop knowledge as a keen teen motorhead, but doesn’t have much if any exposure to sophisticated Core world spacecraft, so trying to save face in front of these handsome mysterious strangers and the gorgeous Handmaiden travelling with them (Queen Amidala in disguise), and to potentially get paid (or at least get chance to mug them in alley), he ends up leading them through Mos Espa himself to buy time and think of a solution. A black-cloaked yellow-eyed figure with no face or body visible, glinting hilt at his belt the same as the Jed’aii, sweeps after them, vaulting and slinking through the shadows and seeming to float at time.

As they walk, Ani pelts Qui-Gon with rude and interrogatory questions, only to be met with kind honest and charming responses as well as interesting offworld anecdotes, taking the hardbitten neglected and frankly restless and lonely Ani aback. Similarly, Padmé replies to his clumsy vulgar flirtations with a vigorous and witty banter, but also a respect and intelligence and modesty he isn’t used to, opening up to him about the political unrest and current trade embargo on her homeworld Naboo, and how she never knows who to trust when there (heavily hinting to him that she is a high-powered official). Adventuous Ani is piqued and impressed, but tries to bluster and front it out.

Now unsure what to do about these nice people on his dangerous world, Ani decides to show off bartering on the Jed’aii’s behalf for a bullshit part (not with Watto—we don’t need incomprehensible slavers or racist caricatures). This goes South when some belligerent locals take exception to the cut of the Jed’aii jib, paranoid backwater xenophobia, etc. Ani to his own surprise ends up helping to defend his weird new friends, first with his words and fists, but then accidentally with instinctive Force magic (idk what what or how, fill in with your imagination) of a magnitude he hasn’t managed to unleash before, that unsettles the provincials and causes them to accuse Ani of being a demon or some such.

An embarrassed and confused Ani freaks out and takes off running, headed for the desert, where after wandering around moodily through the rocks and caves for some time as night falls, the cloaked yellow-eyed stranger who was stalking around before approaches our callow hero, and asks him in a raspy voice if he took pity on the locals by only using his power to intimidate. Ani’s hackles rise, and he demands to know who is speaking to him and how he knows what just happened. Maul (whose name and origin we do not yet know) takes down his hood to reveal his terrifying visage, unclips the saber hilt from his belt and throws it to one side, and asks Ani whether he wants to learn to control his ‘special power’ and punish those who have mistreated him. We see Ani glance over at the saber lying in the dust, take this in and ponder it, but we cut away before hearing his answer...

(continued below)

(continuation of Part I @R188)

Meantime, the Jed’aii & Padmé have escaped the rabble with their lives thanks to Ani’s accidental distraction, and head back at the cruiser to spend the evening trying to call for help and fix it themselves (Sebulba milling around heckling them, and telling them about his and Ani’s background etc.) Padmé & Obi fall asleep aboard leaning on each other’s shoulders, while Qui mediates and keeps a quiet vigil. As Qui floats cross-legged off the floor, an incoming holo disturbs his tranquility, and on accepting the call we see the blue computerised hologram of Count Dooku, who asks Qui what is taking so long to convoy the Queen to safety. Qui-Gon greets his Master and explains the situation, but then thinks to ask how Dooku knows where they are and what they’re doing given their mission is meant to be top secret (of course, Dooku knows via Maul/Palps). Dooku manages to finesse a handwavey half-truth to assuage his former Padawan, and rings off to a confused but unsuspecting Qui (he’s a smart man, but an idealistic one who loves and trusts his old Master still).

As the suns come up, the cruiser suddenly seems to rise on its own and take seamless silent flight. From below, both Maul & Sebulba watch it take off and fly away from seperate vantage points. Inside the craft, an astounded Qui-Gon rushes to the cockpit to find a smug Ani with his feet up on the console (Han-style), saying that he “fixed” it (without admitting how), and demanding that as payment/thanks the Jed’aii take him to see this amazing Temple at Coruscant he’s heard them talk so much about. Qui, taken with the insouciant lad and intrigued by his strange abilities, and ever the Rebel Jed’aii bucking the customs, agrees readily. As Ani flicks on the autopilot and shambles back to the hold to grab some shuteye, he sees Obi & Padmé asleep and stares at them with a troubled frown for a minute.

For our final scene, we cut to Ani flying a different smaller craft over the Temple at high-speed, whooping and grinning, while a nervous but excited and lust-struck Padmé clings on in the passenger seat and laughs with him. Qui & Obi watch the craft from the ground looking at each other with wonder and concern both, with Yoda & Dooku further off watching them watch with more grim expressions. Last we see and hear is Ani at the pilot controls laughing maniacally as he swoops into the sky.

And that’s all I got.

While my alternative PHANTOM MENACE is not perfect, at least it negates the need for the worst of the original, all the boring or pointless or childish shit we didn’t need to see I.e., the Trade Federation negotiations, the Galactic Senate, slaving, midichlorians, Mother Mary Schmi, Jar Jar & the Gungas, the pod race bullshit, and the Invasion of Naboo.

Didn't you guys watch the Youtube videos "What if the prequels were good"? It posits a restructuring of the movies to make them better, more coherent, etc. And most of the ideas were really good.

The big question in the first movie is "Okay, who is the protagonist?" You can't answer that, because the movie didn't really have one. Whose story was it? Again, not sure you can answer that. It's a mess of a movie. Then the second one is a mystery movie... but they never really answer the mystery, and drop it completely in third movie. It's honestly a mess of styles and just all over the place, when it could have been a very compelling story.

Here's one of the videos. He did others:

r187 that would've been cool. Im reading online that George Lucas originally wanted the prequels to be the story of Obi-Wan's life as a Jedi, and he happens to find Anakin Skywalker, so George wrote them from that perspective. IMO That's partly why they felt so clunky, Anakin/Darth Vader was not the intended central part of the story initially, like he was in the original three movies.

As I said earlier, I think Anakin should have been a teenager like Padme in the first episode, so the love story could've gotten started. And their love story was a huge failure in the prequels. It was supposed to be the stuff of legend, passion so strong that Anakin would do anything to save her, including betraying his master and the Jedi faith. As a viewer, their relationship never seem to reach anywhere close to that level of passion, to the point where you felt that if you were in his shoes you'd sacrifice it all for your soulmate. You need to feel that to connect with him, and it never happened. They just made him a creepy mental case. Hot, but a creepy mental case.

That's because Hayden Christensen is gay and has absolutely no chemistry with women. He had great chemistry with McGregor. You really could believe that those two were lovers.

🤣🤣r192, uh oh, we have now reached the point of no return of a Star Wars prequel thread; the remaining replies will be about Hayden Christensen and blaming his gaiety for the movies sucking ass!

It's not Hayden being gay that ruined the movies, it's just that he has no chemistry with women. The movies still would've sucked ass without gay Hayden.

What if Episode II was good?

All of this was posited before The Clone Wars series and stuff, but it's still good.

What if episode 3 were really good?

First draft of Episode I. Lucas did some DRUGS in his revision and nobody told him no

Portman was no better than Hayden in the prequels.

"He was supposed to be a confused little boy in a man's body. Even Snoke called him a "child." In Kylo Ren's case, his character was supposed to be that way. Confused, conflicted, full of doubt, yet putting on a brave show."

Well, I hate children, like any good Datalounger! Yet another reason to hate that twat Darth Emo!

Seriously, I think they counted on his man-child immaturity to get the audience to forgive him for what he did in the first film, but it didn't work for me. Now, what they might have done, and probably intended to do and failed to accomplish, was to make his immaturity scary. Give him that level of monumental power and no control over his impulses, make him terrifyingly unpredictable, show his own men as being terrified of him, because they never know if he'll choke them with the Force or blast them out of an airlock or give them a promotion, because his moods and temper change without warning. Then, at least he'd be scary, yet perhaps capable of turning to the Light Side.

Are there still plans for a new trilogy with new characters?

R191 all Ani & Padmé had in common were eugenical fascist leanings, pretty looks, and a liking for taboo sexual partners.

[quote] The Jedi Council, for no logical reason at all other than to maintain the plot, think Anakin’s ready and that he should go with Padmé. Two young star-crossed lovers should go on this romantic getaway, when romance and love is forbidden, and leads to the Dark Side.

[quote] The very first thing that comes out of Anakin’s mouth is a very awkward and inappropriately placed compliment. “So have you… Grown more beautiful, I mean.” Inappropriate compliment. Padmé smiles and dismisses it as nerves. Women don’t mind an initial nervousness from a guy. It’s complimentary and cute to them, but it gets old real fast! Assertiveness needs to take over quickly, BUT too much assertiveness —and arguing with your boss to impress her—comes off as a pathetic and desperate attempt for attention.

[quote] Women like when you ask them questions about things. They like to talk about themselves. For example, Padmé mentions how she’s worked for a year on legislation to oppose the Military Creation Act. Even if you could care less about this shit, you just pretend like you do, and say, “Well that sounds interesting. Tell me about this piece of legislation.” Then she’ll start running her mouth, and you can think about sex while she’s talking. Occasionally you should nod and always be prepared with some follow up questions. Instead Anakin misses this very obvious lead, and immediately starts talking about himself and his Jedi stuff. “I am truly thankful to be his apprentice.” She doesn’t care. Then it gets worse! He starts bitching and complaining about his job and his boss, almost to where it seems like he’s gonna start crying. “He’s overly critical, he NEVER listens, he, he doesn’t understand! It’s not FAIR!” Keep in mind that this is only like their second scene together. I can only imagine what she’s thinking, “HOLY SHIT! This guy is a fucking, annoying whiner! I really can’t see myself with him.”

[quote] Creepy sex looks. If woman ever says you’re making me uncomfortable, “It makes me feel uncomfortable...”, it’s not a good sign.

[quote] Anakin tries to discuss politics, and admits he supports a fascist dictatorship.

[quote] Later that night – he starts crying, “The closer I get to you, the worse it gets.” Then he starts begging for sex, “I will do anything that you ask.”

[quote] Next Anakin murders women and children, brings a corpse home, and goes on a psychotic megalomaniacal rant. “I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!” “I will even learn to stop people from dying!” “He’s JEALOUS!” “I killed them.” “They’re dead.” “And the children too.” “I slaughtered them like animals!”

[quote] Even though Anakin’s strikes far outweigh his successes, Padmé still marries the guy after knowing him for only like 3 days.

[quote] The thing is that both characters have no reason at all to love each other, other than the fact they are simply physically attracted to each other. So instead of making the story about them just fucking like wild rabbits, the-they imply some kind of deeper, emotional connection that has never been established, BECAUSE they don’t know each other. It’s what they call a… Contradiction. To Lucas, love seems to be only something from like Romeo and Juliet. “See how she leans her cheek upon her hand. Oh, that I were a glove upon that hand that I might touch that cheek.” Somethin like an alien or a robot would view human love as. Like a guy who hopelessly pursues a woman by saying clichéd love dialogue.

[quote] This is movie romance at its most superficial, and one-dimensional. Two attractive people in beautiful locations: They must be in love.

[quote] These characters are so flat and uninteresting, and Lucas doesn’t seem to know how to write dialogue between two real people. “I WISH that I could just WISH away my feelings.” Then we basically have to be TOLD that they’re in love. We can’t actually experience it or feel it, because I suspect he doesn’t know how to convey it.

The prequels, for all their many many many flaws, tell a story.

The sequels...don't.

[quote] The prequels, for all their many many many flaws, tell a story.

[quote] The sequels...don't.

I keep reading this on this thread, and I really disagree.

To me, the prequels were nothing but a showcase for George Lucas' new CGI toys.

In Episode I, there was waaaaaay too much time spent on that fucking Pod race. It was so goddamned boring that I can never watch it. I always think about how that time could have been much better spent on storytelling. But, no.

In Episode II, it was even worse. There was the stupid long-ass scene where Anakin is chasing that shape shifter, and jumping from vehicle to vehicle. That probably took a good 10 minutes.

Then there was the boring scene on the bug planet, where Padme, Anakin and the droids are going through the processing plant. More wasted time on nothing. That was probably another 15 minutes.

And finally the stadium scene on the bug planet where Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme are fighting various creatures. ANOTHER fucking 15-20 minutes.

That's nearly ONE HOUR of just wasted time, with NO story telling.

Then in Episode III, it starts off with a good 20 minutes of a "whole lotta nothing." Just space fighting, ending in a crash landing. More wasted time, which could have been spent on showing Anakin's change over to the dark side.

And towards the end of the movie, there's the ridiculous - and I mean RIDICULOUS - scene of Obi Wan and Anakin fighting, while standing on metal transports and surrounded by hot lava. Which incidentally, would have burned them into dust in about two seconds. Another 20 minutes wasted on that.

It was just wasted scene after wasted scene in the prequels. So much filler, and NO story. I felt like I was watching a children's movie, with episodes 1,2, and 3.

At least JJ Abrams ditched all that useless crap and gave us three ADULT films.

No silly characters, no endless "action" scenes with stupid CGI creatures. It was almost ALL story, which I really loved.

And yes, there WAS a story. It was Rey's story. With Kylo, Luke, Leia, and Finn's stories in the background. The only one who got shafted, was Poe.

But in the end, I was VERY satisfied with episodes 7-9, and I can watch them over and over again.

I can't say that for episodes 1-3.

R203 doesn't have a fucking clue what 'story' is. There was no coherent story in the sequel trilogy. And certainly no realistic fleshed out characters. Everything was just "plot points" and rushing from one to another. Things happen just because they needed to for the plot, and no other reason. And most of the plot points were SO FUCKING STUPID.

Some simple examples from the last movie: the Falcon crashes for no good reason other than "add fake drama". And it's all repaired again in like 10 minutes with zero consequences and no references after that. The whole stupid KNIFE thing... a knife that is decades old that, if you stand in one specific spot, and hold it at a specific distance from your eye, facing in a specific direction, just happens to match the outline of a wreck out at sea. SERIOUSLY? The stupidest thing ever. And it just HAPPENS to point to a Sith Wayfinder? Of which there are only two in the universe, yet everyone involved just HAPPENED to read about them, and they spend an hour finding this one only for Kylo to crush it? WTF?

None of this makes any goddamned sense. It's just "plot for plot's sake", it's just fake drama and tension, it's a rube-goldberg string of ridiculous nonsense to take us from point A to point B. AND THAT FUCKING SIXTEEN HOUR TIME LIMIT? WTF WAS THAT? They hopped from planet to planet, crashed and repaired their ship, stopped and rescued and did ten thousand things in this over-stuffed movie, and only 16 hours was supposed to have passed?

How anyone can watch this utter SHIT and say they enjoy it is beyond me... their IQ must be below room temperature. It's such bullshit.

"To me, the prequels were nothing but a showcase for George Lucas' new CGI toys."

No, the prequels are actually about the fall of democracy and the rise of fascism, but it can be easy to miss that because there's two idiot kids taking up most of the screen time with a totally unconvincing love story. All the real action, the meat of the story, is taking place behind them. If you ignore the horny boy and the girl who seems to think he's a creep, you find a very chilling story about the rise of a dictator and how he manipulates events to slowly destroy democratic institutions and seize total power, and it's incredibly chilling considering the events of the last five years.

So the sequels are sort of half-good, but only half because Lucas has no fucking clue how passionate, romantic love works, or how to sell a love story to an audience. His romances suck even more than J.K. Rowling's.

Can’t believe that AOTC turns twenty years old next year. Where did all that time go? I remember being nine years old and seeing it on a big screen...

Also can’t believe that it is still the longest SW Episode to date. The final cut is basically three hours of greenscreen.

Ugh who actually gives a fuck about the post/Empire galaxy?

MAUL ORIGINS when?

Happy May the 4th, hos!

The most interesting thing about the sequels was the two leading characters feeling the pull from both the light and dark sides of the Force. Frankly, they should have used that as the main theme of the sequels from the beginning, introducing Rey or whoever they used as protagonist, as having unconscious Force powers and using them in both good ways and bad ways, because they don't know any better. If they'd introduced a second character like that, who was ANYONE BUT HAN AND LEIA'S KID, then they could have had an intense on-off-push-pull relationship with both of them struggling to master the Force and to be on one side or the other.

Which is kind of what they did with Baby Yoda in "The Mandalorian", the Child has Force powers but no understanding of what's good and bad, and the little sprat does some rather dubious things in all innocence. The character is popular not just because he's incredibly cute, but because he's genuinely interesting. There's an element of suspense in seeing what he'll do with his powers next, that is a first for a pre-verbal child character.

[quote] Star Wars' J.J. Abrams learned 'the hard way' that 'you have to plan' a story

The greatest teacher, failure is.

J.J. Abrams would probably agree with that lesson from Yoda based on his comments in a new interview with Collider. Abrams, who directed the first and last installments in Disney's Star Wars sequel trilogy, was asked if the films would have benefited from having a stricter road map from the beginning, and he agreed that having a plan as a storyteller is crucial — something he learned "the hard way" more than once.

"What I've learned as a lesson a few times now ... is that you have to plan things as best you can," Abrams said. "And you always need to be able to respond to the unexpected. ... Having a plan, I have learned, in some cases the hard way, is the most critical thing."

Critics of the Star Wars sequel trilogy have argued it suffered from a lack of cohesion between the creative visions of Abrams and writer-director Rian Johnson, who helmed the middle installment, The Last Jedi. In the most prominent example, after The Force Awakens asked the question of who Rey's parents are, Johnson and Abrams both presented different answers in the trilogy's second and third films. Similar criticism about storytelling planning has been directed at Lost, which Abrams co-created.

Abrams didn't specifically tie this lesson to Star Wars in the interview and cited his experience in television especially, but he said there have been unnamed "projects that I've worked on where we had some ideas, but we hadn't worked through them enough." He did note that sometimes when a story doesn't work, it's actually "because it's what you planned." But Abrams stressed that in general, storytellers should have a plan and should "know what you're setting up."

As Lucasfilm looks ahead to more Star Wars movies following some brutal reviews for The Rise of Skywalker, it sounds like Abrams is ready to pass on what he has learned.

The Boba Fett and Asokha series both sound promising.

Uh...DUH.

"“I’ve been involved in a number of projects that have been – in most cases, series – that have ideas that begin the thing where you feel like you know where it’s gonna go, and sometimes it’s an actor who comes in, other times it’s a relationship that as-written doesn’t quite work, and things that you think are gonna just be so well-received just crash and burn and other things that you think like, ‘Oh that’s a small moment’ or ‘That’s a one-episode character’ suddenly become a hugely important part of the story. I feel like what I’ve learned as a lesson a few times now, and it’s something that especially in this pandemic year working with writers [has become clear], the lesson is that you have to plan things as best you can, and you always need to be able to respond to the unexpected. And the unexpected can come in all sorts of forms, and I do think that there’s nothing more important than knowing where you’re going.”

“You just never really know, but having a plan I have learned – in some cases the hard way – is the most critical thing, because otherwise you don’t know what you’re setting up. You don’t know what to emphasize. Because if you don’t know the inevitable of the story, you’re just as good as your last sequence or effect or joke or whatever, but you want to be leading to something inevitable.”

People like to hate on Johnson for Zigging where Abrams would've Zagged, but Disney LET him Zig.

The hate for Johnson in the fandom seems to come largely from the Incel asshole brigade, they HATE Johnson for portraing Luke the way he did. Those dipshits all seem to identify with Luke, IMHO because he's a male virgin who's given superpowers, they won't shut up about Johnson showing Luke as a believable human being and not the continued embodiment of all their secret dreams.

That said, Abrams zigged, Johnson zagged, and then Abrams tried a double-zig, and anyone with sense could have told you that that sort of thing would end with a 3rd film that sucked.

r214 I agree with what you're saying but it was really out of character to have Luke isolate himself on an empty planet. He would've stayed and fought, the way they portrayed him in the sequel trilogy was just not the man Luke Skywalker was. Mark Hamill even complained about it.

You're right about the male incels, though. They see themselves in Luke. Ironic, because Luke Skywalker has always read as gay to me.

Well, I can see Luke going to a deserted planet IF he genuinely believed that the Jedi thing can do more harm than good, and taking some time to commune seriously commune with the Force and rethink how to use it and interact with it.

Because after seeing the prequel films, I had serious doubts bout the Jedi Way myself, at least towards the end of their order they'd become inhumane and unwise and I wondered that more padawans didn't lose their shit the way they were broiught up. So yes, I was perfectly okay with Luke rethinking things and coming away from his sabatical wiser and more in touch with the True Force... but yeah. The guy we knew in the first three films wouldn't stay away in a time of crisis, or without leaving someone he really trusted a way to contact him in case of a true emergency.

Oscar Isaac was the only one in the new trilogy who had any charisma or star power. The others were all a bunch of boring drips.

Ah, maybe because they were shitty movies

Oh yes, they were also shitty movies. But the cast sucked too.

I think the Skywalker Trilogy should just be forgotten and taken out of canon.

I HATED Driver as Kylo. Most pathetic villain ever. But Ridley is what made 7-9 watchable. They should have done much more with her, including having her possibly turn to the dark side in the second film or at least, get tempted by it. They should have also made her a clone, which was one of the theories before episode 9 came out. My friend was convinced she was a clone of Anakin but in female form. Would have been interesting to see there be more Rey's...maybe a few that had failed in the cloning process and had turned to the dark side.

I thought Daisy Ridley was a boring actress and her character was boring

The character was a total mary-sue which was totally boring.

[quote] you find a very chilling story about the rise of a dictator and how he manipulates events to slowly destroy democratic institutions and seize total power, and it's incredibly chilling considering the events of the last five years.

I just love the legion of idiots on DL who talk like this, as if dictatorial behavior in politics began in America (and the world at large) with the election of 45. Watching events unfold has been “incredibly chilling” for at least the last 60 years.

While it wasn't the best movie, I think Ridley & Boyega were good as the fresh faced newcomers in the 1st movie; by the 3rd movie, they both seemed insufferable - the SW characters & the actors.

[quote] it was really out of character to have Luke isolate himself on an empty planet. He would've stayed and fought, the way they portrayed him in the sequel trilogy was just not the man Luke Skywalker was

I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand Luke's motivation there.

He completely failed Ben Solo during his training. So much so, that Ben actually turned to the dark side.

This must have been especially painful for him, since Ben was the son of his best friend and his sister. That's his nephew!

Not only that, but Ben killed all of the people that Luke was training.

It was so devastating to him that he ran away from it all.

The explanation is very straight forward.

But it was still out of character, Luke was always a fighter.

Boyega was never helped by the writing. In 7, he was an eager puppy chasing after Finn. In 8, he was stuck in that endless casino subplot. In 9, he just yelled "Reyyyyyyy!" for 2 hours

R227: Mary!

This is not going to go the way you think.

The Clone Wars helped me appreciate the prequels more. I really liked episode 7 a lot. The last Jedi, I enjoyed about 50% of it a lot, but a lot of it was just wrong. I did like the Rise of Skywalker better than the Last Jedi.

The Rise of Skywalker is arguably the worst of them all.

I nearly walked out of The Rise of Skywalker. It was godawful shit. I couldn't believe Disney actually greenlit that abortion.

Yeah, "The Rise of Skywalker" had me stifling giggles in the movie theater. It's in a race with "Phantom Menace" for worst Star Wars product of all time.

Which is kind of too bad as I really like Rey, but they just didn't know what to do with her, or Poe, or any of the other characters. I can't believe they thought it was a good idea to start this billion-dollar film trilogy without any clear story idea, that was insanely half-assed.

It was insane r233. The biggest franchise in the history of the world and they didn't have a clear storyline for all three films right from the start. I couldn't believe they would be so half-assed with a property as important as Star Wars.

And I know I've mentioned this before, but bringing the Emperor back to life was such a cheap cop-out. It was ridiculous.

Disney should have done what the makers of "Game of Thrones" did, have a clear outline from the start and treat it with nuclear secret level security. That not only results in a clear story, but it builds fan interest! If everyone knows there is a secret, it's human nature to want to know what the secret is, and there's nothing that fans like better than playing the insider - making up "leaks", spreading rumored leaks, arguing over which leak is the true leak, etc. It's fun for the fans, and it builds interest in the product!

Disney missed the boat in SO many ways with the trilogy, but IMHO they've redeemed themselves with "The Mandalorian". And I like "The Bad Batch", too, so things are on a bit of an upward string and I consider my $7 a month for Disney Plus to be worth it.

The Mandalorian is excellent.

Mark Hamill: Sequel trilogy is fresh because it has a woman.

Remember when Princess Leia ripped the blaster out of her rescuer's hand and proclaimed someone had to save them? and when her mother before her planted the seeds of rebellion? George Lucas wrote strong female characters just fine.

George said Leia would have had a lead role as a politician in the sequels. But for the woke crowd at Disney, a female can only be strong if she's kicking ass.

Will be hard to find a more lazy job then Disney did to SW, because is no secret that SW was based The Hero With a Thousand Faces of Joseph Campbell and the secret of their success was not in space ships and lasers but in the use of subconscious archetypes that are familiar to everyone in every culture, GL him self say that people would try to copy SW using only spaceships and robots etc... and would fail because SW is not about that, Disney dont give a f and end up in doing exactly that, movie only based in space ships and especial effects

Why was The Force Awakens given so much slack when it was released?

Looking back on the original reviews for the movie, it was fascinating to see the hype factor come into full effect as almost everyone was swept up in the grandeur of seeing Star Wars on the big screen again with a brand new coat of paint. And I speak as one such fanboy who was very much taken in by the experience. But as I discussed the movie with my dad, the more I realized how much character roles aligned with ones previously seen (Rey = Luke, Kylo Ren = Darth Vader, Han = Obi-Wan sans the Force, etc.) And that was after acknowledging the obvious Rebellion and Empire substitutes. And yet, we didn't immediately dismiss the surface level entertainment factor and instead kind of hung onto it as a crutch. But the seeds of doubt where there.

I know this will probably elicit a few eyerolls just for mentioning it, but at the time many said that Jurassic World was more of a remake of Jurassic Park than The Force Awakens was for A New Hope, which when you compare the two that isn't actually the case for one simple reason: Jurassic World did not re-set the status quo. The "status quo" of Jurassic Park wasn't a working theme park, but the possibility of this Pandora's Box of genetic power being opened within the confines of a capitalist wet dream. That doesn't excuse obvious fanservice (like the night vision goggles to name just one example) or various plot similarities, but it took the first film's core concept and showed how it would have eventually collapsed.

So on that level, The Force Awakens already failed to take the end-point of Return of the Jedi to any sort of logical destination. In fact, it proved to be even more derivative and self-damaging than it's competition.

Taking individual points here and there, Kylo Ren was once cited by a reviewer as "what Anakin Skywalker in the prequels should have been" when really it's schizophrenic writing. Rey's sudden and unexplained use of the Force was just accepted as something that would be answered in the following film. The so-called risks like showing the OT characters as jaded and regressed husks of their former selves, their achievements either erased just to set up a mystery of how things got so bad and how will they be resolved, and killing off Han now come across as cheap drama-baiting.

And the most obvious was how much reviewers took its plot derivations as a sign that "Disney can do Star Wars without Lucas!" for granted. All the while demonstrating nothing new... If a teacher assigns homework to a student, and he copies his older sibling's essay from last year, how is that evidence that he can produce anything of substance on his own? It doesn't. It shows a lazy work ethic.

So ultimately, was nostalgia and hype just so strong with this movie that the obvious narrative concussions blinded so many of us for such a long time?

"Why was The Force Awakens given so much slack when it was released?"

It was actually a very enjoyable movie on first viewing, with a charming heroine, very Star Wars production design, and plenty of fast-paced action, but if you saw it again, well. It's just a ripoff of "A New Hope", and if you watch it again that's all you see. Which is all wrong, one of the reasons that Star Wars still has a huge fandom is that you can see the original movies many times and still enjoy them, and find new things to appreciate (and that's even true of the deeply flawed prequels).

I also enjoyed "The Last Jedi" on first viewing, but "Rise of Skywalker" had me giggling silently in my seat,

It's funny because I can watch the original three Star Wars films over and over but the prequels and the new ones I've seen once or twice and I have no real desire to watch them again. Although I will say that the prequels in some ways make Vader's final redemption at the end more emotional with the context that he was once a hero.

[quote]The first two are basically remakes of Star Wars and Empire. Harrison is playing Obi Wan in film 7 and Luke is playing Yoda in Last Jedi. But they're still ten times better than the prequels, which were fucking garbage.

The prequels really were awful, but at least they attempted to set up backstories and had some original plot points, unlike the last 3.

[quote]I also think fans and casuals alike would have benefitted from seeing the origin stories of Darth Bane, Darth Plageuis, or Darth Sidious/Palpy.

Am I nobody to you?

[quote]Rey was not well developed and they took too long to reveal whose daughter she was, even that was kind of lame.

I've always found it odd that Kylo/Ben was able to sense that her parents were worthless, yet couldn't sense that she was a Palpatine. Also, if she was so powerful, why didn't Palpatine sense her and raise her himself?

R246, that's because none of it makes any sense because they were just making shit up as they went along, like drunken fratboys on a bender thinking stupid shit is "SO COOL!"

R246, the only time we've seen one person sense another person through the Force who didn't want to be sensed, was when Vader sensed Kenobi on the Death Star. And at that time they were in close proximity, and Vader wasn't sure. So I doubt it's possible for one person to sense another on another planet, when the two people don't know each other closely and they're half or a whole galaxy away from each other.

We don't really know what the limits are on Force use, of course, I'm sure the Sith and the Jedi had lots of abilities that weren't show in the movies. But still, I don't think it's possible to use the Force to sense a lost grandchild on an outer rim world.

I'll accept that for the Emperor, but do you think that also applies to Kylo, who was in proximity to Ren several times and knew about her parents? Why wouldn't he at least sense she had a powerful lineage of some sort, even if he wasn't sure who it was associated with?

Darth Emo and Rey are supposed to have some sort of special bond and can communicate through the Force over long distances. Maybe because they played Mind Invaders back in the first film and got to know each other's minds, maybe because they were both extremely powerful when they started doing that, maybe because he was trying to spy on her, maybe because the Disney writers didn't care about canon.

At any rate, he was wrong about her parents. Probably because he was making up a cruel lie to hurt her, or maybe that was the plan for the plot at that point. Really, I wish they'd stuck to that, shown that she had no special lineage, that Force prodigies can come from anywhere. But then, anything would have been better than the idea they used.

I feel the same way about that, r250. Why did she have to be a Palpatine? Are there only 2 human Force-infested families in the entire universe?

[quote] Am I nobody to you?

[quote] —Darth Maul, asskicker extraordinaire

Sorry Darth Maul, but you were CANCELLED after your porn video came out, with you getting a blowjob from some random skank.

You should have kept your dick in your pants.

[quote] Darth Emo and Rey are supposed to have some sort of special bond and can communicate through the Force over long distances

It's called a DYAD.

Not sure exactly what it is, and the movies certainly never explained it.

But that's what it's called.

Love the first part of Return of the Jedi, meh about the second part with the Ewoks.

It looks like a lot of people praise Rogue One's final battle, but it's basically Vietnam War battle in space and The Mandalorian is basically a cowboy western ... in space. Don't get me wrong, I like both The Mandalorian and Rogue One very much, but I think some people fail to realize that it's not the syfy element that makes them this popular.

[quote] Love the first part of Return of the Jedi, meh about the second part with the Ewoks.

Sorry, but they have now been re-named the "E-Wokes."

[quote] It looks like a lot of people praise Rogue One's final battle, but it's basically Vietnam War battle in space and The Mandalorian is basically a cowboy western ... in space. Don't get me wrong, I like both The Mandalorian and Rogue One very much, but I think some people fail to realize that it's not the syfy element that makes them this popular.

Good call, R254.

Very observant.

Of course, GenZ and Millennials would never be able to figure that out.

" I like both The Mandalorian and Rogue One very much, but I think some people fail to realize that it's not the syfy element that makes them this popular."

You say that like it's a bad thing! Lucas has never been afraid to re-use Hollywood tropes, but since he used them well it's just part of the fun. And yes, if "The Mandalorian" has been using western movie tropes it totally suits the lawless world of a bounty hunter, it all works and it's wonderful.

"The Mandalorian" is obviously based on Westerns, the music and the title cards alone are very evocative of that genre.

George Lucas has always talked about his influences for Star Wars. Of course the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials were a primary influence, and also Japanese Samurais were the primary inspiration for the Jedi Knights. Lucas has talked about all of this in many sources.

[quote]Of course, GenZ and Millennials would never be able to figure that out.

Since the Western genre died at least fifty years ago and Westerns have not had any major influence in American culture since then, it wouldn't be surprising at all.