Dirt from the Star Trek: The Next Generation set

Wil Wheaton was a pass-around bottom.

Wesley Crusher was programmed in multiple techniques and a broad variety of pleasuring more than I was.

Patrick Stewart's bulge was so huge his costumes had to be specially made to hide the meat and veg, which proved difficult for the wardrobe department.

The cast seems to have gotten along well overall and become friends... once they got through the shitshow of the first two seasons.

Wasn't there an episode where you could clearly see Marina Sirtis' camel toe through her unitard?

There really isn't a ton of dirt with Star Trek: The Next Generation. Compared to the other casts (minus Discovery which reportedly are also very close), the TNG crew are a family and adore each other. Over 30 years later, they are still very close. If you follow any of them on Twitter, you'll see the get together often.

Here's what little dirt on TNG there is:

Denise Crosby left the show because she felt underused and wanted a movie career. That didn't pan out and within two years she was begging to come back.

Gates McFadden was fired at the end of the first season. Allegedly show runner Maurice Hurley couldn't stand her, felt she was too demanding: but there are also rumors that Hurley was harassing McFadden and fired her because she refused to sleep with him. McFadden has never really commented on those allegations, but has said that she was fired because she was too vocal about the crappy scripts.

Diana Muldaur was personally invited by Gene Roddenberry to become the new doctor. Muldaur was treated like shit by most of the cast (with the exception of Michael Dorn who was a huge fan of hers). Patrick Stewart was particularly rude to her because she had trouble memorizing the medical jargon she had to spout and resorted to cue cards which he felt was completely unprofessional. The other cast were pissed because Muldaur was making more money than all of them except Stewart due to her long career in television. Also the cast was pissed that Muldaur got a more comfortable uniform because she refused to wear the one piece uniform (Stewart had been pushing for a costume change since the first season). At the end of the second season, both Muldaur and Paramount agreed not to renew her contract. Gates McFadden was then asked back.

Marina Sirtis fucked Robert Knepper when he guest starred in the first season episode "Haven." She's talked about it several times over the years.

There was occasional tension between Sirtis and McFadden as they often had to compete for airtime. When McFadden returned to the show, Sirtis was allegedly put off that the hair and makeup department spent a ton of money getting McFadden real hair wigs and her own makeup artist, while Sirtis with stuck with an ugly synthetic wig. In fact if you watch the episode "The Price" there is the infamous sense of Crusher and Troi working out. On the bluray it was discussed that that scene was written because Sirtis and McFadden had been fighting and the writers were sick of it. They wrote a scene they knew both actress would hate as punishment. Both women repaired their relationship fairly quickly, but there has always been a sense that McFadden tires of Sirtis' fairly quickly.

Both Marina Sirtis and Gates McFadden almost didn't appear in Nemesis. Sirtis wanted more money and McFadden was uphappy with the size of her roles in the movies and didn't see the point of coming back. Paramount allegedly threatened Sirtis by saying they'd bring in Jeri Ryan to play a part (Sirtis allegedly said that not for the money you're offering she won't). Sirtis clearly got a figure she could work with, and Beverly's role was increased in Nemesis but most of her scenes were cut in the final edit.

[quote]Marina Sirtis fucked Robert Knepper when he guest starred in the first season episode "Haven." She's talked about it several times over the years.

Good for her.

Ryan has since said she would never have done Nemesis and it was foolish to think they could just drop 7 in the middle of the TNG crew.

Sirtis has vocally cooed that one of the perks of doing Nemesis was getting to lay underneath a half naked Tom Hardy.

Yeah, there really isn't any dirt on TNG because the cast are so close and they're kind of open books, they talk about everything on the convention circuit.

In all honesty, the Star Trek show with the most drama and gossip behind the scenes was Voyager.

Isn't the actor who played Data a massive, egotistical asshole? Thinks very highly of himself as an actor.

R10 Yes, Brent Spiner does give off "asshole vibes" but actually I've seen him twice at conventions and he's more of a 'smart ass' more than anything.

WHET to Spiner's stalker ANNE DROIDZ?

Does she still take "Brent breaks" and show off her massive photo collection of Spiner? Including pictures of her pictures?

I remember from some interview that Patrick Stewart squabbled with the rest of the cast for clowning around in the early days of ST: TNG.

He said he was a very serious, Shakespearian actor who demanded more professionalism from the others who liked to drink and pull pranks. He said Denise Crosby was the biggest prankster who liked to party and clown around, so they feuded.

He also said that he was in the wrong -- he should have lightened up a bit.

Apparently a director came to guest on the series one of the first two years and said the actors were so unprofessional with their pranking and clowning that he would never work with them again. They almost got along TOO well, although r6 is correct there was some tension between Sirtis and McFadden (though they nothing but good things about each other now). I also got a sense that after the first few years they stopped pranking and goofing off so much because they realized they were getting reputations as unprofessionals. I've heard several of them say they were all on their very best behavior when Jean Simmons guest-starred in "The Drumhead" because they all revered her so much.

Patrick Stewart just adored Gates McFadden, and was furious when they fired her. He was probably the rudest to Diana Muldaur when she came on to play Dr. Pulaski, and even made her cry during shoots.

For reasons unknown LeVar Burton use to jump out of nowhere and kick Wil Wheaton in his vagina. Apparently some of these were included in a blooper reel that Alex Trebrek saw. Alex laughed so hard that he passed out. From that point on he told the producers of "Jeopardy" to get LeVar to replace him if they can.

Brent Spiner used to *date* Swoozie Kurtz.

Yeah Spiner's shtick at conventions is to be deadpan and faux-pompous. He's quite funny and it's clearly an act, but there might be a grain of truth there. Who knows.

There's a bunch of convention videos on YouTube so you can get the dirt, such as it is, straight from the source. Not that they'll say anything too outrageous in that kind of setting, but you can hear funny stories about technical snafus or what they stole from the set when shooting wrapped.

R6 said: "Patrick Stewart was particularly rude to her because she had trouble memorizing the medical jargon she had to spout and resorted to cue cards"

I think that's a common mindset of actors who come from the British stage. Memorizing lines is a big deal for them. Like, in their training, it's the most basic thing an actor should do but MANY television/film actors don't do it before arriving on set because of the start/stop situation of tv and film production.

I saw an interview with Martin Freeman (Watson to Cumberbatch's Holmes) and I don't remember the specifics but, he talked of how much he liked working with a particular actor on an American film because that actor also came form the British stage and was always preprepared so they could actually work on acting together in their scenes. Whereas working with actors with tv/film backgrounds its mostly them reviewing lines.

It was not actually filmed in space nor in the 24th century.

I think that was Kate Mulgrew's beef with Garret Wang as well. He apparently was regularly so poorly prepared that he was almost fired at the end of season 3.

Interesting thread from a few years ago for those that are interested.

R14 Patrick Stewart was deeply upset by Gates McFadden's firing and did not go out of his way to make Diana Muldaur feel welcome. Diana Muldaur, to her credit, has never said a bad word about the TNG cast (she's from a generation of actors that never acknowledge issues with co-stars). She's talked about how she didn't like the show itself, but not about anyone on the cast. Also McFadden has actually said very kind things about Muldaur too, saying that Muldaur is a brilliant actress and that it's a sign of how bad the writing was that they didn't find a way for Muldaur to shine.

Yes Voyager had the best gossip:

The Kate Mulgrew/Jeri Ryan feud is the stuff of legends (though the appear to have made up in recent years)

Kate Mulgrew and Robert Beltran allegedly screwed around sometime late in season one or early season two.

Kate Mulgrew also had fling with Winrich Kolbe who directed the pilot.

Robert Beltran doesn't really get along well with most of the cast (he's also a Trumpie apparently as is Roxanne Dawson).

Jeri Ryan was in a relationship with producer Brannon Braga (she dropped him the minute the show was over).

During the early seasons of the show, Garrett Wang would frequently show up to work still drunk from partying the night before and not knowing his lines. He was suspended from the show for two episodes in season 3, and his character was set to be killed off to make room for 7 of 9. It was only because Wang was named one of People Magazine 100 most beautiful people that UPN insisted Producers keep him.

Jennifer Lien was doing drugs and the decision was taken to fire her since they couldn't fire Wang.

Kate Mulgrew nearly left the show at the end of season 6. Her contract was up and she was miserable on the show, plus she was having trouble with her sons, but she stayed for one more year only for the money.

That's not surprising to me R23 Beltran & Dawson have both given interviews (to The 700 Club types) about how Hollywood ignores the religious community.

Beltran can't go long on his twitter feed without mentioning something religious (Voyager showed his character's religious customs as well those of Torres played by Dawson).

I guess they've never watched any of the now thousands of Christmas episodes/films on tv networks (especially Hallmark) who does Xmas in July of all things.

R23 & R24 Dawson became a hardcore Catholic during Voyager. Prior to having her daughter (during season 4 of Voyager) she had suffered a number of miscarriages. She saw her daughter as a gift from god....and then become super religious.

R23 Marina Sirtis I believe was the one who spilled the beans about Mulgrew and Beltran sleeping together. Allegedly, it was after this that their relationship went down hill coupled with Mulgrew's attitude after Jeri Ryan was hired.

Robert Beltran was so attractive when he was younger and now looks like Jabba the Hutt.

Mulgrew and Beltran SLEEPING TOGETHER?!

A LESBO and a HOMO.

I visited the STTNG bridge set once after filming was ended for the day. Looking around, I laughed at the ship's deck plans, which showed only one toilet on the Enterprise (adjacent to the bridge). I gathered from my host that it was a running joke amongst the cast that the lines for the john took up all of their characters' free time.

R16 There's a person called Swoozie?

I thought Beltran & Mulgrew had some chemistry. I might be wrong?

0/10, R14.

Just eject yourself i to hyperspace.

It’s quite funny that Marina Sirtis played such a kind, demure character when in real life she’s a loud, obnoxious cockney and a bit of a dick. I saw a video of the whole cast at a convention panel. Marina had obviously been drinking and would barely let anyone else get a word in edgeways. She’s prone to ranting, and has an acid tongue at times. The rest of the cast were kind of looking at each other and rolling their eyes, while Gates McFadden eventually challenged her on the bullshit she was ranting and they got into a low-key argument. I wish I’d saved the video, it’s entertaining for the wrong reasons. I imagine Sirtis must have been THAT co-worker who is always hard work and exhausting to be around.

R33 don't worry, she's acted that way quite a bit at conventions, so people should be able to find an example easy. Bret Spiner did a mini series on YouTube "Fresh Hell" and what a damn shame it didn't take off! It was hilarious.

Gates passed on the Beverly Crusher role multiple times because she wanted to do a play that conflicted with filming.

Don't call me a dick or I will have you EJECTED into SPACE!

Someone who worked with Robert Beltran early in his career -- I have forgotten who but I think it was Mary Wornorov -- said in an interview that he was an enormous pain in the ass. It was something shown on AMC before they aired NIGHT OF THE COMET, and I remember thinking that can't be right, he seems so charming, but then read an interview several years ago where he trashed Voyager saying it was "fascist," where he clearly meant liberalism was fascism.

No Jonathan Frakes stories? He was so hot and looked damned good in that one piece uniform in seasons one and two. I used to always look for when he was profile to the camera because you could often see a good tenting of his cock outline.

I love these Star Trek threads. WEHT Voice of the Night? He always had great Trek trivia and gossipy stories to share!

Any PICARD gossip? I imagine that was a happy crew but you never know.

I remember seeing a convention video taken right before PICARD started shooting, and Frakes and Sirtis were very coy because they had signed NDAs. "I wish them well...I would be flattered if they offered me a role" and like that.

PICARD was enjoyable if you turned your brain off. The story was a mess.

Kate Mulgrew would annoy co-stars with stories about Ryan's Hope. She would go on and on about ABC wanting to make her a Morgan Fairchild tyoe. She;d tell the younger actors soaps were a great training and legends like Helen Gallagher were needed on the show.

R28 Yes there were rumors about Robert Beltran (though for the record he is now married to a woman has a biological daughter and lives in Germany). Kate Mulgrew, however, is straight no question. It's no secret she has an appetite for men. She's been married twice, has had three children by two different men, was almost the First Lady of Ohio (during her marriage to politician Tim Hagan) fucked Beltran, fucked at least one of the directors of Voyager.

R33 I think the argument you're referring to was one where Sirtis inferred that young people only get into acting today for the fame. McFadden, who also teaches acting at the college level, basically said that's BS. Marina has talked about this before, but the guys of TNG are kind of afraid of her and Gates often plays the "older sister" who ends up putting Marina in her place. I remember seeing on youtube once that Marina said when Gates tells her "no" that it's coming from the guys not just Gates.

R38 I have heard whispers that Frakes is bisexual and lived with a man prior to TNG, but that's just whispers.

R40 Actually, Patrick Stewart has admitted that he hasn't really gotten to know the new cast for Picard that well that he was looking forward to that in season 2 (whenever that films). Stewart actually had only met Jeri Ryan once before she reprised her role on Picard.

R41 Mulgrew allegedly didn't get on well with some of her Orange is the New Black co-stars.

[quote][R38] I have heard whispers that Frakes is bisexual and lived with a man prior to TNG, but that's just whispers.

You've just jumpstarted my fantasies.

Any insight on the marriage between Nana Visitor and Alexander Siddig? From a distance that relationship looked odd to me, like a marriage of convenience. But then again they had a son, and I never read of any rumors.

R44 Nope it was not marriage of convenience at all. In fact, it sounds like it was more of a "hook up" turned marriage. Nana Visitor talked at length about their relationship in this 2011 interview. Sid had apparently had feelings for Nana since the first season, but neither were available. It sounds like one thing led to another and then Nana found herself pregnant. The marriage ended largely because Sid's work increasingly became more UK based, while Nana wanted to remain in LA. They are still on very good terms, Nana appears on Sid's weekly web chats often, and they are both happily married to other people now.

Frakes living with a man before TNG - is it OK if I imagine him with the beard? He was nothing without the beard!

As far as Treks go, I think TNG has the least dirt. And I wish I was on this Zoom.

[quote] He was nothing without the beard!

LIES!

The beard made the whole damn show!

Denise Crosby claims she has no regrets, but I call bullshit. Her career went nowhere and she ran back to Trek.

Let’s ask this as a yes or no question. Did you make the right choice, leaving TNG when you did?

Crosby: Yes.

If you had the chance, today, knowing what you know now, to make that decision again, would you make the same choice?

Crosby: Yes. For me, I was miserable. I couldn’t wait to get off that show. I was dying. This was not an overnight decision. I was grateful to have made that many episodes, but I didn’t want to spend the next six years going “Aye, aye, captain,” and standing there, in the same uniform, in the same position on the bridge. It just scared the hell out of me that this was what I was going to be doing for the next X-amount of years. I think you have to take your chances. I was really young. I didn’t have to make house payments or put kids through private school or support people. I was free to make those kinds of decisions. I’d been in acting school really dreaming of playing all kinds of different things. Whether it’ll happen or not, you don’t know, but you’ve got to give yourself a chance. God forbid you go through your life thinking, “What if?”

She was no Michelle Forbes.

If Crosby had stayed, Marina Sirtis would have been fired. Sirtis later got Majel Barrett to admit that, allegedly. And it would have been bad for Michael Dorn, too, since Worf had no clearly defined role.

Worked out for the best IMHO. For the show and the fans, if not for Crosby's bank account. But I looked her up on imdb and she hasn't done so badly.

Denise Crosby's character was terrible and she is not a good actress. If she'd made it to the third season when writing improved dramatically, she might have been okay for the rest of the show, but honestly she and Wheaton were dead weight. McFadden and Sirtis also had characters who were poorly written but their roles as part of the crew were vital; Crosby was a duplicate, they didn't need two security officers on the show.

They started out with too many characters. I wonder if they always intended to thin the herd.

Not that I want a reboot but it's interesting to imagine what would happen if TNG were being created today, with better writing and a more serialized approach.

Famke Janssen and Michelle Forbes turned down roles on DS9. Famke turned down the role that would become Dax (who inherited the spots Famke’s TNG character sported) to pursue a film career, and Michelle wanted career diversity. Both actresses appear to have made the right decision in retrospect given their goals.

Not that we done adore Kate, but allow yourself a moment to wonder what the show was like in the universe where they convinced Lindsay Wagner to play Captain Janeway.

Lindsay's good but she's no Genevieve Bujold.

Didn't Stewart demand a lot of rewrites in later seasons as he perceived Picard as an action hero and wanted more of that compared the more cerebral stuff of the middle seasons. It's also why the movies after Generations pivot heavier on the action scenes, especially with the character of Picard, compared to the show. I don't think he really understood what the show was or enjoyed what the show was.

[quote]Lindsay's good but she's no Genevieve Bujold.

Thank god for that. No disrespect, because I've liked Bujold in other things, but the dailies that they released showed exactly why she was wrong for the part.

Honestly, just about any of the other actors they considered would have been better than Bujold. Well, except that they considered Patty Duke, and I just can't see that at all.

Bujold seemed to be sleepwalking through her lines in the footage shown of her as Janeway. Very aloof and detached from the rest of the cast.

Duke would have been fun. "Sure I drink coffee. I gotta be on the bridge at 0500 hours. Sparkle, Katie, Sparkle."

Addressing the Kazon Maj, "Alright faggot...start explaining."

That's very disappointing about Beltran - I also have seen some interviews where he has said shit like "Chakotay was GAY!" as if it were a slur. He's gotten the latter-day career and face he deserves , I guess.

[quote]Bujold seemed to be sleepwalking through her lines in the footage shown of her as Janeway. Very aloof and detached from the rest of the cast.

She's supposed to have this long-standing friendship with Tuvok, and there's nothing between them that suggests that. She supposedly couldn't handle the dialog or the intensity of TV production, but it honestly doesn't look like she was even trying.

Of the other people they were after (they did audition a few men before settling on Janeway being a woman), Wagner is about the only one I would have seen as potentially better than Kate. Linda Hamilton wouldn't have been cerebral enough, Joanna Cassidy would have been just as aloof as Bujold (that worked in her favor as T'Pol's mother), and I think Kate Jackson would have come off as flighty.

I've always heard that they considered Lynda Carter, who would have been great, but I don't think that was ever officially confirmed anywhere.

[quote]No disrespect, because I've liked Bujold in other things, but the dailies that they released showed exactly why she was wrong for the part.

That's the joke.

I am having a hard time understanding why the dailies with Bujold could be published (I think as part of the DVD extras). They show the dailies and then some commentaries where Berman or some actors says that she was clearly not right for the part. How can stuff like that go public in an official Paramount release? I am assuming that Bujold gets a couple cents of royalties and that she must have consented to this footage going public. But why on earth would she consent to that? Are the royalties for this minute and a half so significant?

I mean, they own the footage, so I doubt she had any more say in releasing it than one of the main cast would for a blooper reel, or someone who wasn't cast doing a screen test.

Beltran being Trump-y doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Apart from him being an asshole, I think I remember reading that he was a Lyndon LaRouche groupie in the 90s. That's REALLY not a big leap.

I don't know if they've ever come out and said, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't at least consider offering Michelle Forbes Voyager as well. Torres, at least before they made her bland, was VERY similar to Ro, and in her last TNG episode, Ro says something about one of her teachers leaving Starfleet to fight for his colony in the Maquis, and that was supposed to be Chakotay.

The Voyager set was always drama.

Lynda Carter would have made a kick ass Janeway.

She looks terrific now at almost 70 but 25 years ago she barely looked a day over her WW days.

It would have been a true tit-off with Ryan and Carter.

He ruined everything about Picard. He is exhibit A of why you don't let actors write their own roles.

Sorry, there were some posts that hadn't loaded for me yet. To be clear: I was talking about Patrick "Picard Should Kill More People" Stewart.

I never knew about Lynda Carter. She would've been interesting.

They really, REALLY wanted Lucy for the Janeway role, but, well, Gary said "She's dead and even if she wasn't I would talk her out of it."

R52 Yes. Had Denise Crosby stayed on the show, Marina Sirtis would have been fired and in season two you would have had Lt. Yar and Dr. Pulaski. Troi was written out of about four episodes in the first season because they just didn't know what to do with her character. She was saved from the chopping block because they had already planned on firing McFadden (because Executive Producer Maurice Hurley hated her) and it would have looked bad if they got rid of every female character during the first season. McFadden claims that when she was fired, her agent had been told one of these reasons was the producers felt there was one too many women in the main cast, that two female leads was more workable.

R55 The original plan for DS9 was for Ensign Ro to be promoted and made first officer of the station The episode "Ensign Ro" during TNG's fifth season was actually a 'setup' episode for the backstory of of the bajorians. It had always been intended for Ro to move over to that show, but the problem was they didn't include that in Michelle Forbes contract. So when time came to start the pilot of DS9, they had to open negotiations with Forbes and she didn't want to commit to a six to seven year run because she wanted a movie career. Ultimately, they created the character of Kira (which I think worked better because she wasn't in Starfleet) and they brought over MIles O'Brien instead. Interestingly, Forbes left TNG after season 5 but then made an appearance in season 7.

R58 Yes, Stewart wanted Picard to be given more action both in terms of fighting and in terms of romance. On the blurays, Ronald D. Moore talks about Stewart telling him once that Picard needs to buck and fuck more often.

R67 Outside of Lynda Carter and Kate Mulgrew, the other actresses who auditioned and were considered for the part of Janeway were: Linda Hamilton, Erin Gray, and Susan Gibney. Paramount wanted a name from the part and before Bujold, they allegedly offered the part to none other than Blythe Danner who immediately turned it down. Also another interesting fact: After Bujold left/was fired and Mulgrew brought in, Gary Graham was put on standby for the role of 'Eric Janeway.' Paramount was already wary about a female captain and after the failure of Bujold, they weren't certain a woman could handle the lead role, so they gave Mulgrew one week and if it didn't work out, Gary Graham would then play the captain. Robert Beltran would then have been fired and a new female first officer created.

Erin Gray may have worked out well.

Danner would have been very inspired casting but I'm sure Gwyneth would have been totally embarrassed having a parent apart of Star Trek.

Gibney was already Trekked out.

Bujold played Janeway, as TERRIBLY TERRIBLY VULNERABLE, which shows she didn't understand the material. Janeway was in a position where she could never ever look vulnerable and still do her job, and would have to spend most of the series hiding her feelings from the other characters rather than expressing them openly, which is something that most actors can't or won't do... but Mulgrew did. She got it.

Linda Hamilton might have been great, she can play cool and tough, but I don't suppose she has any regrets about doing movies instead. Erin Gray... NO. But Linda Carter?? Squeee!!! Some geek needs to do the world a favor and CGI Linda Carter into some "Voyager" episodes!!!

Wasn’t Marina under pressure to lose weight?

Wasn't everyone but Kirstie Alley under pressure to lose weight?

No.

No

- Bill Shatner

Uh, obviously by "everyone" I meant the ladies. No man was ever asked to lose weight, not even John Goodman. Maybe astronauts had to make sure to be able fit in the space capsules or something, but that's about it.

R76 Marina has talked at length that the only feedback she ever got from producers was to lose weight. She was at her thinnest during the final two seasons and that was because, according to Marina, her diet largely consisted of cigarettes and water.

R74 Susan Gibney was allegedly Rick Berman's first choice but Paramount thought she was too young (she was 33 when Voyager was casting). Bujold casting as Janeway actually stemmed back to DS9. When producers were casting from the role of Benjamin Sisko, Parmount wanted a name for that part. The two leading candidates were Pierce Brosnan and Richard Dean Anderson (Brosnan turned it down and allegedly Berman felt Anderson wouldn't have had the emotional range to pull off what was needed in the pilot). However, Berman and Michael Piller had always intended for Sisko to a black man and Avery Brooks was approached. When Voyager started casting, Paramount again wanted a name for the captain and Bujold was shopping around to do a TV series and she was offered Janeway with no audition or meeting with producers before hand. Bujold had no idea how a television show (let along a 1 hour sci-fi series) work and was appalled at the schedule requirements.

R50 Crosby always claims she didn't regret leaving the show, but it's an open secret that by about the third season she was begging producers to come back. And she has milked her 1 season appearance for every penny she can get. I do believe the TNG cast like Crosby but there is a different dynamic when she's appears with them.

Only a few years after leaving TNG, Crosby was starring in a Red Shoe Diaries episode.

Embarrassing.

Several of the actors who auditioned for the role of Commander Riker ended up guest starring on the show, including Billy Campbell and Christopher McDonald.

Marina Sirtis had originally auditioned for Yar and Denise Crosby for Troi. Just about they were about to offer the actresses the roles, Gene Roddenberry decided that Marina would be better suited for Troi because he felt her looks were more exotic and alien and asked the actresses to switch roles.

Rick Berman had originally seen Gates McFadden in a play and wanted to cast her on the show. When Gates came in to read, the casting director said to her that there were three female roles and she could read whichever one she wanted. The scene for Dr. Crusher was the one from "Naked Now" where she is hitting on Picard. McFadden liked it because she thought the character was going to be funny. McFadden was the only actress seriously considered for Dr. Crusher but she turned it down twice before accepting. The major reason for this was that she was based in NYC and didn't want to move to LA as she was teaching in New York and wanted to focus solely on theater. When she was fired at the end of the first season, she moved back to NYC for the year.

I rather with that Crosby had stayed, as Worf was one of my least favorite characters. Okay, he was better than Wesley or Data, but he was always on about Klingon politics and being a single father and his goddamn warrior's honor. The Klingon politics episodes are unbearable!

I liked Tasha Yar, and I always thought her hardscrabble background had the potential to give her some interesting flaws. Most of the characters were so perfect they were boring, Tasha might have added a touch of grit if she'd ever been developed.

I loved Worf! He was my favorite character. Deadpan delivery with a sense of humor he grew into and later seem to enjoy as he became more comfortable in his role. He became more human in an honorable sense without betraying Klingon values.

I loved the Klingon political intrigue story arc, especially the Duras sisters.

My favorite line from any Star Trek series: In a very low-starred, scorned episode where the crew happens upon an M class planet that looks like Sherwood Forest in 'Ye Olde England, they are forced to adopt the dress and likenesses of Robin Hood and his band.

Worf: "I am not a merry man." 😂

It turned out Worf was a DS9 character all along, and was just waiting to come into his own. If you've watched the documentary, Dorn thinks so too: he obviously adores the TNG cast, but he's clearly prouder of what he did on DS9.

[quote]Several of the actors who auditioned for the role of Commander Riker ended up guest starring on the show, including Billy Campbell and Christopher McDonald.

That happens a lot. Erik Menyuk, who played the pervy Traveler, was a finalist for Data. Vaughn Armstrong and Jeffery Combs, who between them hold the record as highest record of characters played across the various series, both were in the running for Riker as well.

Bob Picardo originally auditioned for Neelix, if you can believe that. And of course, Denise Crosby and Marina had originally auditioned for each others' roles, when Yar was supposed to be a Latina named (sigh) Macha Hernandez.

I always imagined Macha Hernandez still would've had the same outfit as season one Troi and be armed only with a switchblade.

I just think it's funny that they would have considered Cockney, Greek, working-class Marina as a Latina, but then she's also spent her late career playing Israeli and Persian, so...

Ignore the fact that neither of Troi's parents had her posh Received Pronunciation accent.

[quote]I always imagined Macha Hernandez still would've had the same outfit as season one Troi and be armed only with a switchblade.

Marina was on Twitter a few months back talking about her uniform from the pilot and how she had to sit with her knees squeezed together because you could see everything.

Marina once said that she looked like an intergalactic cheerleader in the pilot.

Roddenberry wanted Billy Campbell, but he didn’t audition well. Since Frakes was the #2 pick, and he reportedly worked hard at the audition, he got the part.

Campbell looked delish in his episode, The Outrageous Okona.

Love their zany outtakes

They had originally wanted Gerard Depardieu as Picard (since, you know, French), which....barf.

The “Angel One” episode gets a lot of flack, but at least it had a lot of scantily clad guys walking around.

Billy Campbell was so beautiful. Heck, he still looks good today.

Frakes has told the story about the "pep talk" Roddenberry gave him when he had to audition for the top brass to seal the deal. Instead of giving any acting notes or simple encouragement, Roddenberry gave a passionate speech about the better future that Star Trek represents. I guess it got Frakes pretty energized.

I also vaguely remember Frakes had some story about how Riker's particular way of sitting down started because his leg was sore that day, or something like that. Though I don't see how throwing your leg over the chair is any more comfortable. Anyone know the story?

He has a bad back. You can also see him leaning a little even when he's standing up straight.

Marina played a Latina rape victim in Death Wish 3.

She had zero lines in English.

No mention of Marina's topless bull whip fight with Faye Dunaway?

Well that makes more sense. Thanks R98.

Marina was briefly in that Golan-Globus documentary, talking about Death Wish 3. As you'd guess, not a fond memory.

You ever want to see Counselor Troi's tits?

Ah, the bad back explains why it always seemed like Riker's head was going to crash through the turbo lift door before it opened. He leaned forward so much and walked with such intent, he almost looked like a charging bull.

[quote]I just think it's funny that they would have considered Cockney, Greek, working-class Marina as a Latina, but then she's also spent her late career playing Israeli and Persian, so...

She plays Italian in an old Sherlock Holmes episode with Jeremy Brett.

They had to let out Frakes' one piece to get it to fit him later on. He still had muscles, but had put on a couple of stones.

After season 2, the one piece became a two piece (shirt and pants). I wonder what they wore under those one piece outfits.

Something to protect themselves from skin irritations? I've read more than once that Season 1 &2 uniforms were horribly scratchy.

[quote] I wonder what they wore under those one piece outfits.

pantyhose

I think they also had padding on them to make the guys look more muscular.

They had a massive auction of costumes and props after Enterprise went off the air. I remember seeing a picture of what was underneath the dress uniforms, but I can't find it now. It was...silly.

Enjoying this thread like the closet geek I am! I grew up watching TNG and loved it. I rewatched it earlier this year and it sadly hasn’t aged that well. I guess a product of its time, although still many great episodes. I feel it would have benefitted from the shorter seasons most shows have now. DS9 has aged the best of the older Trek shows even though it got a heck of a lot of hate back in the day.

Marina comes through for us. Starfleet Man-Spanx.

I've heard some people required girdles or corsets but I wouldn't know.

Interesting thread from a few years ago for those that are interested.

Oh, dear.

Marina refers to "VPL" in the link at r111! Supposedly she means the men wore special briefs to get rid of panty lines, but we all know what she really meant.

Brent wants you to know he is a changed man

Frakes always had VPL whenever he was profile to the camera. It was really noticeable in season 1.

[quote]Marina refers to "VPL" in the link at [R111]!

She's been our Patron Saint since we discovered she stole the gorgeous wig she wore for the movies. This merely confirms it.

Let us all have ourselves EJECTED into SPACE as supplication.

R116 Yeah Frakes had major VPL in seasons 1 & 2 but when they changed to the looser fitting uniforms in season 3 it was less noticeable. BTW while the men got more comfortable two-piece uniforms from season 3 onward, Gates McFadden (and Marina Siritis in seasons 6 and 7) still had one piece tight uniforms. Also Marina did have a built in corset in some of her Troi outfits because she was 'thicker in the middle.' Ironically, Marina looked way better in the standard duty uniform (also, so did Jeri Ryan on Voyager in the few episodes we saw 7 in a uniform).

R97 As for the role of Riker, it came down to Billy Campbell and Jonathan Frakes. Gene Roddenberry wanted to offer the role to Campbell (I think Campbell had more of the look Roddenberry was going for with Riker), but Maurice Hurley (I think, or some other Executive Producer) felt that Campbell lacked the air of authority that he felt Riker needed: personally, I've always suspected this had something to do with the fact Campbell is rumored to be gay in real life. I think Campbell is actually better looking than Frakes (he aged better) but is more cerebral in a way. Like I can buy Frakes as kind of the "less intelligent" naval type more than Campbell.

R107 Yes the original uniforms for TNG were horribly uncomfortable. They were made two sizes too small to decrease the appearance of wrinkles (apparently this made it difficult for the men to sit down), and they also stank. Because they couldn't wash the uniforms regularly (or they'd shrink too much) and spandex absorbs perspiration they didn't smell pleasant. Patrick Stewart claims that those uniforms caused him lasting back pain.

[quote]Ironically, Marina looked way better in the standard duty uniform (also, so did Jeri Ryan on Voyager in the few episodes we saw 7 in a uniform).

That must have been a huge shock to the producers. They originally had her put in the uniform to show that Captain Jellico was an asshole, and then everyone loved it. It really did wonders for both Marina and Troi. Marina's always said "She suddenly grew a brain."

R119 Tori being put in a standard uniform had more to do with behind the scenes stuff than wanting to making Jellico look like an asshole. Marina Siritis had been campaigning to be allowed to wear a uniform since about the third season (when they gave her that dress she HATED).

In the season four episode "Future Imperfect," a holographic version of 'future Troi' was shown in a uniform but producers thought it didn't flatter Marina's frames (she was a little bit heavier at this point). By season six, Executive Producer Jeri Taylor had taken over as TNG show-runner and supported Marina because she too had never been comfortable with Tori (a Lt. Commander and senior officer on the flagship) going around with her boobs hanging out. When Chain of Command was being written, the writers thought this would be a good opportunity to test out Troi in a uniform. The original plan was she'd wear the uniform for the two-parter but then go back to her normal outfits. However, Marina looked so good in the uniform that they made it permanent. Though Jeri Taylor had to reach a compromise with Rick Berman who approved that Troi would wear her uniform while on duty, but all off duty scenes would involve her "cleavage jumpers" If you watch seasons 6 and 7, you'll notice that Troi goes back and forth between the two outfits.

One of my most embarrassing secrets is that I used to spank out loads to Wil Wheaton when I was a teen.

R121 You weren't the only one with that secret....That grey uniform that didn't zip in the back......easy access hahahaha.

[quote]Ironically, Marina looked way better in the standard duty uniform (also, so did Jeri Ryan on Voyager in the few episodes we saw 7 in a uniform).

I don't blame her. That thing wouldn't have looked good on anyone.

[quote]I always imagined Macha Hernandez still would've had the same outfit as season one Troi and be armed only with a switchblade.

She would've kept it in her wig.

[quote]I just think it's funny that they would have considered Cockney, Greek, working-class Marina as a Latina,

The 80s were a different time.

She easily passes for a certain type of S.. American.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jonathan Frakes and Billy Campbell briefly live together when they first started out in LA?

[quote]They were made two sizes too small to decrease the appearance of wrinkles (apparently this made it difficult for the men to sit down), and they also stank. Because they couldn't wash the uniforms regularly (or they'd shrink too much) and spandex absorbs perspiration they didn't smell pleasant.

I never knew this! So I guess the actors stank of BO the whole time they were filming? That must've been a very unpleasant set.

R128 Yup the cast have spoke about this over the years (and I think it's on the blu rays too) but yeah the uniforms smelt bad so they would spray cologne or perfume on them frequently. Also Marina's outfit during the first season was made of denim and stank as well.

Also another little uniform fact: Dr. Pulaski had her "smock" uniform created because Diana Muldaur refused to wear the one piece spandex uniform (which pissed Patrick Steward off). Her smock changes several times during the course of the season. If you watch the HD version of "The Child" you can tell they recycled Troi's belt from the first season, dyed it blue, and sewed it into Pulaski's first smock.

The funny part was Troi was a high ranking officer from the very beginning. She shared the same rank as Data and outranked Yar, Worf and Geordi.

By the end of the final season she was on the same level as Riker.

There are no zippers in the future!

R130 So, in the original script for "Encounter at Farpoint," Troi was a Lt. However, as the production began, Gene (according to Marina) thought that Troi might be the "Spock" of the TNG crew and therefore made her a Lt. Commander to give her more authority.

Thank god they didn't get rid is Sirtis. So many of the Troi-centric episodes were camp heaven.

Well if we're having a nice long bitch about the costumes, here's a thing about how Jeri Ryan's costumes on "Voyager" were always making her pass out.

Jeri Ryan said it took 30 minutes to get in and out of the costume, so she didn't eat or drink anything for the many hours she had to wear it, to avoid bathroom breaks and holding up production.

This is such a great thread.

R134 Ryan stated on twitter that it was just the full borg costume that caused her to pass out, not the catsuit.

[quote] Please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jonathan Frakes and Billy Campbell briefly live together when they first started out in LA?

Hot, if true.

R137, my link says she went down in the silver corset catsuit a couple of times, as well. I am not going to research the question of how many times she passed out on set, because she was wearing ghastly shit and not eating or drinking.

R130

Troi wasn't an officer at the beginning; she never went to the academy. After the episode where she reluctantly assumes command (she only outranks the surviving crew because Ro was an ensign, and O'Brien was also not an officer), she gets actual Starfleet training, and I guess becomes an officer at that point.

R86

They weren't on a planet. They were in a fictional universe Q created to "help" Vash and Picard work out their relationship troubles.

Another piece of dirt from the Star Trek universe is how Deep Space 9's concept was stolen from J. Michael Straczynski, which I think explains why DS9 has a number of themes that make absolutely no sense on a Star Trek show. Sisko holding a grudge against Picard made no sense, and it was also dropped and never mentioned again after the pilot. Sisko being a religious figure to an alien species and Starfleet tolerating it also made no sense. It does make sense when you consider that Sisko is a poorly developed stand-in for Sinclair on Babylon 5.

"Troi wasn't an officer at the beginning; she never went to the academy."

Well she was officially a part of the medical staff, or at least, had been at first. In Starfleet as in today's military structures, it seems that medical officers have ranks and are officially integrated into the command structure, but nobody wants them to actually command anything but hospital ships. I can only guess that Troi's position on the Enterprise was something of an anomaly in Starfleet, that most large-ship psychologists worked out of the medical department and didn't spend most of their time on the bridge, advising the Captain.

It actually makes me wonder what the other Starfleet captains thought of Picard always having a psychologist right there, acting as his "lie detector" and telling him what to do.

We thought he was a dirty old man.

Straczynski has been living off that tired set of lies since DS9 premiered. He went to Paramount after they'd seen the development ideas for DS9. Paramount passed on Babylon and on and on Five. It was a shit show. With shit actors. Paramount made the right call.

Brent Spiner is a bit of a know-it-all and he's very deadpan, but he's an overall lowkey guy and the cast all seem to have a great deal of affection for him. He was a theater actor at heart and an introvert, so I think the hardcore sci-fi devotees like Anne Droidz (wow, what a hilarious blast from the past to whoever mentioned that) were really overwhelming for him at first, but he seems like a decent sort.

Thanks r141. It's been over two decades since I've seen TNG. I'm not at all a science fiction fan - TNG, DS9, Voyager (and X-Files) are the only things of the genre I've watched. TNG really touched my inner geek. I really want to rewatch but I'm afraid I'll find them too dated.

TNG is not dated! Maybe in that there were not season-long story arcs or considerable character development. But the special effects are alright for what they were, and the show as a whole is often (but not always) classy stuff.

Whil Wheaton is STILL adorable.

R139 My point is that Jeri has herself said that these articles are incorrect. They conflate her experience in full borg makeup (something that caused her to pass out and need oxygen) with what she experienced while wearing the catsuit (which was discomfort).

Marina Sirtis HATED the turquoise dress (with matching pantyhose and pumps) she had to wear for awhile. It really was ugly AF.

[quote] Whil Wheaton is STILL adorable.

I think he is aging quite nicely. But at times his look is weird to me. When he keeps his weight normal, I find him to be a hot daddy. When he is overweight, I don't care at all. Usually weight doesn't matter much to me, but he looks like such a different person to me with extra pounds.

The Borg costume's high neckline pinched her carotid artery if she shifted in a particular direction causing blood flow to the brain to cut off and fainting. Very scary.

It actually makes me wonder what the other Starfleet captains thought of Picard always having a psychologist right there, acting as his "lie detector" and telling him what to do.

The worst was he would slip on a dress to greet admirals. He was 𝒔𝒖𝒄𝒉 an embarrassment.

Love the sassy pantyhose r154!

R146 Brent is a smart ass but I don't think he's a bad person. He's genuinely good with the fans. Interestingly, he and Gates McFadden knew each other before they did Star Trek from the theater circuit in New York. Brent is also Godfather to Gates' son.

R142 J. Michael Straczynski's claim that Deep Space Nine was ripped off from his Babylon 5 pitch has disproved but he keeps peddling it. DS9 began development in mid-1990, almost two years before Straczynski pitched B5. Brandon Tartikoff, the head of Paramount, wanted to launch a new Star Trek series for two reasons: 1) TNG had proved to be a massive hit, and 2) Paramount was aiming to retire the TOS cast from movies and replace them with the TNG cast in a matter of a few years. Tartikoff was the one who suggested doing "Rifleman in Space" because they didn't want to set the show on a Starship given it was going to overlap with TNG.

The original concept for DS9 was actually that it would take place on Bajor and filming the show on location at the Paramount Ranch in Agoura Hills. However, it was deemed too expensive and filming on a sound stage is far easier. Also, CBS ultimately rented out the facilities to film Dr. Quinn. Plus there was fears that being on a planet would be too different from what had come before in Star Trek. So they set it on a space station next to a wormhole. DS9 is ultimately a very different show than B5. As for Sisko, the truth is that had more to do with bad writing than copying from anywhere else. Like Picard before him and Janeway after him, it took three seasons for the writers to figure out who Sisko really was.

I have to admit the Bajoran/Cardassian conflict never interested me. I found it boring.

Quark was the best part of DS9.

R157 Fans didn't respond to it either which is why the show started moving away from Bajor stories by the third season.

Brent will always be the hick neighbor of Thelma's offering condolences for Fran's death on the first syndicated episode of Mama's Family.

Marina Sirtis is a cock-sucking WHORE!

Marina Sirtis is a cock-sucking WHORE!

Speaking of Marina, I understand her husband passed away late last year. Had he been ill?

Root beer in the 24th century

Starfleet must be the only military organization with fashion trends. They were always coming up with new uniforms.

[quote]Speaking of Marina, I understand her husband passed away late last year. Had he been ill?

No, it was unexpected. She kept herself busy for the first few months after he died, but when she got back from Star Trek: The Cruise in February, she isolated herself for two weeks because of COVID, and then the lockdown order came. She put out a few videos, and despite putting on a brave face, it was heartbreaking to see how sad and lonely she was.

She's back to dragging Republicans on Twitter, so that's our girl.

[quote][R142] J. Michael Straczynski's claim that Deep Space Nine was ripped off from his Babylon 5 pitch has disproved but he keeps peddling it. DS9 began development in mid-1990, almost two years before Straczynski pitched B5. Brandon Tartikoff, the head of Paramount, wanted to launch a new Star Trek series for two reasons: 1) TNG had proved to be a massive hit, and 2) Paramount was aiming to retire the TOS cast from movies and replace them with the TNG cast in a matter of a few years. Tartikoff was the one who suggested doing "Rifleman in Space" because they didn't want to set the show on a Starship given it was going to overlap with TNG.

DS9 was also originally supposed to be set at a refugee camp on Bajor. They only shifted to the space station because it was cheaper for production.

It didn't stop the writers from giving us endless Bajor stores about the Prophets, Pa Wraiths, and Louise Fletcher's odious "acting."

r43 Frakes and Genie Francis of General Hospital fame were married in 86. TNG first aired in 87 so if he was gay before that..it had to be well before that.

Well, this was his 1978 audition for Welcome Back Kotter and he gave good “gay” in this, so...

R140, go back and watch Encounter At Farpoint.

Troi, while wearing the skirt uniform, has the pips of Lt. Commander.

The reason she takes command of the Enterprise is because she outranks both "Chief" O'Brien and Ro who is a full Ensign. O'Brien even references this.

[quote]Deanna Troi was born on March 29, 2336, near Lake El-Nar, Betazed. ... Although Deanna Troi has little exposure to Earth culture, she attended Starfleet Academy from 2355 to 2359, as well as the University on Betazed, and earned an advanced degree in psychology.

Was Deanna bullied on Betazed for being half human?

R169 Frakes met his wife in the early around 1983/84. The rumor that has circulated is that a few years prior to this, Frakes was living with a male lover (late 1970s period).

I was looking for information about Marina's husband and came upon this. How many casts seem this tight. Very sweet after a horrible few months.

Her husband died in his sleep at the age of 61.

They just seem like a good group of people.

A bunch of them participated in a combo convention/Biden fundraiser that Jonathan del Arco helped organize and that was hosted by Stacey Abrams (who geeked out extremely), Andrew Yang, and Pete. They had people from the other series, and when Wilson Cruz started talking about his character's "empathy," Marina yelled out "Stay in your lane!"

I love Stacey Abrams even more for being a total Star Trek geek. She swept the board.

She moderated a panel about women and Trek and just rattled off every single actress' resume without skipping a beat.

Although Rosario Dawson (who was subbing for Cory Booker, who was fighting the good fight at the ACB hearings) turned out to not be a slouch either.

R176 The Women of Trek segment was fantastic. Marina made a hilarious joke when she asked how would Troi have dealt with Donald Trump, she said Troi would have done down to sickbay stole one of Dr. Crusher's hypos and put Trump out of his misery.

[quote] I love Stacey Abrams even more for being a total Star Trek geek.

I would have thought she would prefer Star Wars

R180 posted a selfie.

I think Stacey is a geek in general. She was tweeting about Buffy last week.

Pete Buttigieg is also a major fan and he was part of the Biden Trek fundraiser.

Mary Carney would have been a better Janeway.

Any Wil Wheaton gossip?

R185, see R1.

The episode where Wesley lost his virginity to Riker was my favorite.

R45. Siddig's son with Visitor is somehow more ethnic looking than he is. I've always wondered if Nana Visitor had some spice in her genes, but she's apparently a swarthy white like Kris Jenner and Catherine Zeta Jones. Her birth name is Nana Tucker.

And yet, her first big job was playing the Jewish Nancy Feldman on Ryan's Hope.

[quote] The episode where Wesley lost his virginity to Riker was my favorite.

Somebody get on the fanfic, STAT.

One night a drunken Riker barged into Wesley's room, took his rock hard cock out of his uniform and said "I know you've wanted this for awhile and tonight you're gonna get it you little bitch!"

Everyone knows that Wesley lost his virginity to that weird bald alien that abducted him.

Riker had him first.

R188 I’m surprised he didn’t turn out better looking. It seems like he got the worst traits from both parents unfortunately.

[quote] One night a drunken Riker barged into Wesley's room, took his rock hard cock out of his uniform and said "I know you've wanted this for awhile and tonight you're gonna get it you little bitch!"

Nice!

I never knew this special existed before today.

The original 9 cast members are seen in it =

Don’t encourage it, R195.

R196 This special aired right before the first airing of "Caretaker" in many markets. I was 8 when Voyager first aired and I vividly remember watching the first episode with my dad.

The set of Voyager sounded like a nest of vipers.

I wonder if Kate had a few nips in her trailer when it got to be really bad.

R199 Voyager was actually a happy set until season 4. The cast got along very well in the early seasons most closer to the vibe of the TNG cast. Then producers fired Jennifer Lien and brought in Jeri Ryan to "sex up the show" and Kate went ape shit. Instead of taking it out on producers, she took it out on Jeri. That's when the set when down hill and many of the cast didn't want to be there anymore. Robert Beltran wanted to leave but couldn't due to his contract (I suspect he started acting cunty like he did in a bid to get fired) and he also started feuding with Kate. Garrett Wang has talked at length about who miserable the set was on the days when they had to work together with Kate and Jeri.

The good news is that recently, Kate and Jeri have mended fences. Kate has apologized to her and they make convention appearances together now.

[quote]I wonder if Kate had a few nips in her trailer when it got to be really bad.

Atta girl!

R200 In an interview 2 or 3 years back, Kate admitted that one of her biggest regrets about Voyager was the way she treated Jeri Ryan. She said that her behavior casts a shadow over the legacy of the show and that she and Jeri have mended fences.

I can't blame Kate Mulgrew for being pissed. She was the star of the show and it was all about a competent, capable woman being in charge and then along comes a gorgeous blonde in a skin-tight catsuit for tits and ass appeal. It's understandable why she was upset.

On the other hand, Jeri Ryan was a wonderful addition to the show and could actually act. Voyager improved with her on it, and hiring her was the right decision.

Still, it's easy to see why Kate didn't like it. It is good to know that they've mended their relationship and are friends now.

I agree that Kate had every right to be pissed, but yeah, making Ryan suffer for it wasn't right. She should have taken her complaints to the producers and the costume designer, and told Ryan that there was nothing personal in her complaints and that she was sure that they could find a way to integrate a Borg character into the series without being ridiculous.

Because the idea of a female Borg wasn't ridiculous, it was interesting, it was the hair, makeup, and costumes they gave Seven that were ridiculous! Why the hell would a Borg wear makeup and tease her hair? Why the fuck would she wear high heels with her catsuits, or pick a tits-out catsuit at all, if she was convinced that she needed to wear clothes even though doing so was illogical? Logically the character should have worn a starfleet uniform or crewman's coveralls once she was persuaded to wear clothes, not catsuits that were unlike anything anyone else on the ship was wearing. Jeri Ryan could have made a starfleet uniform or crewman's overalls as sexy as a catsuit, if they'd given her a chance.

Kate Mulgrew has explained over the years that her issue was not with Jeri Ryan (thought she took it out on her) or the character of 7 of 9: even long before Kate mended her relationship with Jeri, she always praised Ryan's performance and the vital role the character played in the revitalization of the show. Her issue was that here she was the first woman captain who was the personification of how more 'feminist' and progressive Star Trek had become, and then as the ratings start to slide, and they bring in the T&A.

Kate also railed against the outfits Jeri wore and demanded producers change it. The relented initially by getting Jeri out of the original 'metallic' outfit as pictured in R204. According to Garrett Wang, Kate and Jeri actually got along at first, but when Jeri refused to fight to wear something less obviously sexualized, Kate was done with her.

Ironically, Kate and Jeri's onset animosity played well on camera. They are an example of two actors who hate each other personally but have fantastic on screen chemistry.

Please get the focus back to TNG.

You have to respect the Voyager catsuit designer's vision but I maintain Ryan looked a lot hotter without the skin tight padding when she played a USSR government UFO fighter reassigned to the US equivalent agency Majestic 12 on Dark Skies.

R207 Seven of Nine wore a Starfleet in two episodes of Voyager (Relativity and Human Error) and looks far more sexy in the uniform than her catsuit.

Jeri Ryan must have had to avoid eating any solid food during her years on Voyager, that catsuit was such that she couldn't gain a single pound.

I've thought the same thing about Lynda Carter when she was Wonder Woman.

[quote]According to Garrett Wang, Kate and Jeri actually got along at first, but when Jeri refused to fight to wear something less obviously sexualized, Kate was done with her.

Ah, memories. I brought that exact interview up years ago on a thread about Voyager, not long after Jeri use to post here, and got so many FFs I was banned for a day. No one wanted to hear it.

Jeri complained a lot about being a victim but in many cases she, intentionally or not, made things worse.

To tie this into TNG, a lot of fans at the time complained about Jeri's outfits because they had thought TNG helped change things by letting Sirtis wear a uniform instead of the catsuit, and they were upset that the franchise was basically taking a step back just for ratings.

I once met a Marine who told me Voyager was very, very popular with his service buddies. He said they all wanted Seven of Nine in the worst way.

[quote]Any Wil Wheaton gossip?

I know his experience on TNG* left him disillusioned and he took a break from acting, which of course didn't help his career any. He has also talked about struggling with depression, which may have been manifesting for the first time around then. Just my guess.

*If you don't know the story...Wheaton was supposed to play Danceny in the Milos Forman film, Valmont. It was a small but prestigious gig that would have been good for his career and arguably good for TNG too by proxy. The Valmont shooting schedule was going to overlap slightly with TNG, and Wheaton asked to be written out of the first episode of the season. The producers said the first episode was in fact a Wesley episode and they couldn't rearrange everything to accommodate him. So Wheaton had to turn down the film and the role was played by Henry Thomas. But when Wheaton arrived on the TNG set he found Wesley was barely in the first episode.

This is all Wheaton's account, I don't know what Rick Berman has to say about it. Not that I have any trouble believing the Trek producers were dicks.

Oh, Berman was a total dick. And a homophobe.

People forget he wasn't a creative, he was a money guy. They brought him in because Roddenberry had been dancing around with the Paramount credit card for two seasons without much to show for it. I don't think he actually had a single writing credit until the Enterprise pilot. Although in fairness, over the years, he and Brannon Braga have both acknowledged (Braga moreso) that whatever they were going for with Enterprise, they really fucked it up.

The money thing reminds me of the story behind the episode "Shades of Grey," the absolutely godawful Season 2 finale. The show had already had its episode order trimmed from 26 to 22 because of a WGA strike that year. They were also overbudget from building out an intricate Victorian London for "Elementary, Dear Data" and heavy special effects and the set of the Borg ship in "Q Who." So, they demanded an episode that could be filmed in three days, necessitating a clip show. The director didn't even watch the final episode, he just filmed the frame story and let the editors drop in the clips. And they didn't even have a directive for the clips, just buckets of "good things" and "bad things."

It also has some of the worst acting that our beloved Marina ever gave.

Oh another Wheaton tidbit, from something he said at a convention. He credits his cameo in Nemesis to Levar Burton. Apparently Wesley wasn't originally going to be in the film, but Burton told the producers it was weird to leave Wesley out of their last hurrah.

Wheaton also said that he was estranged from the cast at the time, and it was a big deal for him to be welcomed back and to establish adult friendships with them.

Wil Wheaton has a real smarmy affect and his jokes can be cutting, but I get the impression it's all a defense mechanism for a very sensitive person with a big heart. He said something very sweet and touching about his sons at another convention.

He was a complete dick when he was on the Star Trek episode of the Weakest Link. Like, he said some really gross things to Roxanne Dawson backstage.

Although that episode held the record for the highest jackpot on the show. Not surprisingly, Levar won.

What did he say?

He made some comments about being in love with her, and like, blew her kisses. She was visibly uncomfortable. She later walked it back, but looking at her reaction, she wasn't playing it up.

Probably nothing nearly as sexualized and nasty as Trumper Icheb.

She should have said, "Shut up, Wesley."

Someone I know met Wheaton at a Con. Not at an autograph table, but in the Gamers' area, the guy I know described him as a "total gamer geek" who was accepted by the other gamers as such.

And I saw that episode of "Weakest Link", Shatner appeared to be hammered and got every question wrong. But Levar Burton and John "Q" DeLancie were very smart, and ran a hot competition to win. I came away wanting both for husbands.

This is the same Shatner who didn't want to go to George Takei's wedding and then complained when George didn't invite him. And didn't go to Nimoy's funeral because he had another engagement scheduled, when not a single reasonable person on Earth would have been upset that he canceled.

Nichelle Nichols is in failing health, with both her family and manager accusing each other of elder abuse. Please, God, if you're up there TAKE SHATNER FIRST!

Wheaton is indeed a big geek and I learned about a lot of cool board games thanks to his YouTube channel. Whatever good will I have towards him is more for that than Star Trek. Also for his funny guest spots on Leverage.

[quote]He credits his cameo in Nemesis to Levar Burton.

It was almost completely cut from the film though, if I recall. You can only see him briefly as they pan over the guest's table at the wedding.

He had a surprising lack of bitterness about being cut, though, at least publicly.

Gates, who was given a lot more to do, which was almost entirely cut, had more reason. I mean, at least Marina got subplots in First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis, and a really good scene with Stewart in Generations.

[quot] Robert Beltran wanted to leave but couldn't due to his contract (I suspect he started acting cunty like he did in a bid to get fired)

By all means, if he wanted to leave, let him go pronto! Say what you want about Beltran, but Chakotay was the least useful character on the show. Poorly written, under-developed and under-performed. So many other characters could have made a more effective Number One for Janeway.

Beltran was like a block of wood, and McNeil was just boring. I think those roles could've been cast better. Who knows, maybe there just weren't too many options for casting better actors at the time. God knows some actors back then wanted nothing to do with Star Trek because of the typecasting thing.

What killed them with Paris was they wanted him to be Han Solo-y, but then cast McNeil.

R213 Yeah Rick Berman was a piece of work (although to his credit he is more liberal nowadays and actively supported Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2020). But it's telling that with the exception of the TNG cast, none of the casts of the other 90s/00s era Treks given him the time of day. Berman was the reason why there was no gay characters (particularly by ENT when there was no excuse not to have gay characters) and he also treated many of the woman on Trek like dirt. Terry Farrell (thought not saying him by name) has cited him as the reason she left DS9 and that he was inappropriate with her. She claims that he (though he doesn't say his name) used to accompany her to bra fittings and used to make comments about her breasts being too small. Kate Mulgrew has talked at length about how she tried to get a gay character on Voyager but Berman always refused. I'm not sure why the TNG cast so highly regard him but they are the only cast he still invites to his house every year for a holiday parties.

R224 Gates McFadden almost didn't appear in Nemesis. It's no secret that she was unhappy with the size of her roles in the TNG films up to that point. In fact, during the promotion of Insurrection she openly lamented about the "lack of a full meal" her character had in Insurrection. I remember when Nemesis was in pre-production there were rumors that McFadden was not keen on returning and there was talk of bringing Pulaski back (I think that was just fan talk and not real). But John Logan, wrote more for Crusher including more scenes with Picard and slightly hints that they might be or end up being a couple, but those scenes were all cut and Crusher has like six lines in the whole movie. The good news is, it sounds like she will be making an appearance on Picard (if it ever gets back into production) and given the great work they gave Marina, I'm hopeful Beverly will have something meaningful to do.

Speaking of Robert Duncan McNeill, He was one of my first major 'gay crushes' when I was a 11 or 12. Paris (along with most of the supporting cast on Voyager) never really developed and was a boring character. I've also heard rumours that back in the day, McNeill was a ragging homophobe.

The TNG cast may have a high opinion of Berman because he was integral for lifting the quality and reputation of the show. Before Berman the show was run by Maurice Hurley. And that didn't go too well. Stewart complained that he had nothing to do besides just sitting in his bridge chair. Troi had nothing to do but sensing things. And the stories were generally stuck on the quality level of the 60s show. Berman and Piller did lift the quality of the entire show. That's probably why the crew and cast are still thanking him. Berman may be responsible for Voyager not reaching its real potential and Enterprise never taking off. But let's give him credit where credit is due: He is responsible for raising TNG's bar, and for leaving DS9 in capable hands without too much meddling.

Jolene Blalock was the only good thing about Enterprise.

Enterprise only had one outstanding episode, "Carbon Creek," which was the one where T'Pol told the story of how her great-grandmother and a couple other Vulcans crash landed on Earth in the 1950s and had to blend into human society for several months until they could be rescued. It was an excellent story.

[quote]Enterprise only had one outstanding episode

Disagree. "Twilight" the dark, alternate future episode where the Xindi destroyed Earth was legitimately great, when compared to the other series. It was far and away the best performance Bakula gave. When they polled fans before the show went off the air with the intent of airing the top three favorites, that won in a walk.

I love "Carbon Creek," but you can put "Twilight" with at least the best episodes of Voyager,

Wasn't it Berman or Braga who said, re gay characters on Trek, something like, "What are we supposed to do, have them flouncing around the bridge?"

Gates had so little to do in First Contact that they used a shot of her from the TV show in the trailer of the film

R229 Yeah, Berman did a number of things for the TNG cast that he would not do for other casts and I think was more supportive of them in terms of keeping them happy. Berman's creative input in both TNG and DS9 was very limited. Michael Piller really should get all the credit for the increase in TNG's quality during season 3, while Ira Behr should get the sole credit for DS9's massive improvement from season 3 onward.

Berman was more actively involved in Voyager (particularly in the later seasons) and Enterprise and his stubbornness to modernize and keep the franchise's storytelling fresh and innovative was a major contributor to the franchise fatigue the sunk the movies and TV series by the early 00s. Piller left Voyager at the end of the second season due to creative difference with Jeri Taylor and Berman (more Taylor than Berman). Piller could see Voyager was riffing off TNG too much and that the stories they were telling felt dated. Although Voyager has its really strong moments, it really is just a continuation of TNG, it really never found it's own path to leave a mark on the franchise. TNG eventually took the format of TOS, modernized it and moved the show towards more ensemble stories. DS9 built upon TNG but becoming more character focused and evolved to tell ongoing stories and it's legacy is keenly felt in modern Trek interations. Voyager is really just a continuation of the "concept of the week" with the least amount of character development since TOS. Enterprise started the same way but changed hands in Season 3 and 4 with Manny Cotto at the helm. Enterprise found it's footing by the fourth season and it's a pity that it was cancelled because it was finally finding it's unique place in the franchise.

In fairness to Berman, as wrong-headed as a lot of his decision making, and as big an asshole has he might have been, he TRULY loved the job. I think he had the costume department make him a uniform or two.

I also wonder if some of the re-appraisal is coming about now because entitled fanboys don't like how Alex Kurtzman is steering the franchise now. Which, I mean, Trekkies don't hate anything as much as a new series.

I think the only person I've really softened on personally is Braga, just because he's been the more outspoken about what they did wrong.

IMHO all of the Voyager two-parter episodes were very well-done.

Tom Paris was actually supposed to be the sex symbol of "Voyager". The hot bad boy with a heart of gold who just needed someone to believe in and trust him. Then they cast smarmy and wooden McNeil, who also didn't have the looks. I've always wondered whose ass he was kissing, whose cock he was sucking, or to whom he presented hole because for awhile he was the center of the show till Seven showed up. He's at the helm because he's the best pilot. Now he's in sickbay because he has medical training. No! He's in engineering because he just knows. But I thought he was on the holodeck building another program to boost crew morale! Is there anything this guy can't do? I love Mulgrew, Dawson, and Ryan, but jeez he made it the show hard to watch.

I agree r237. McNeil was so bland and unassuming, it was ridiculous he was supposed to be the 'Han Solo' type character, which was just laughable.

Mulgrew, Picardo, Ryan and Dawson were great but the others were not nearly as appealing or as strong in their acting, imho.

[Quote]Kate also railed against the outfits Jeri wore and demanded producers change it. The relented initially by getting Jeri out of the original 'metallic' outfit as pictured in [R204]. According to Garrett Wang, Kate and Jeri actually got along at first, but when Jeri refused to fight to wear something less obviously sexualized, Kate was done with her.

How could Mulgrew have expected the new kid on the block to start fighting with producers? That's not a good way to leave a mark in a new situation. Also, this is around the time that Ryan was divorcing Jack Ryan, the former Illinois politician who wanted her to perform acts in various sex clubs he took her to (starting with the Parisian honeymoon). She probably didn't have it in her to fight two battles.

[quote] Enterprise found it's footing by the fourth season and it's a pity that it was cancelled because it was finally finding it's unique place in the franchise.

I second that. I think we all agree that Enterprise's first and second season were overall underwhelming. The Xindi arc in season 3 gave the show finally some direction. Personally, I didn't care for that direction because it was too much of a neocon's response to 9/11. But at least the show started to show ambition.

Season 4 was a true winner for me. I started to really love the show under Manny Cotto. Some of the stories were just beautiful, and on par with good DS9 stories. But I understand that I don't share this view with many. Season 4 had some severe stinkers, the finale being the worst. And not many people appreciated DS9's way of story telling.

The Xindi arc would have been great over about 13 episodes. 24 (25, if you count the set-up in the previous season's finale) was too much.

I think Braga actually apologized specifically for "These Are The Voyages..."

Season 4 really was what the show should have been the entire time, just setting up the chess pieces for TOS.

Yeah, McNiel as Paris was a total washout, and he should have been killed off and replaced by someone actually hot. And manly.

The thing is, he was supposed to be this bad boy with a heart of gold, but he actually came off as a dweeb who had lucked out and grown up to be decent-looking if not hot, and who was trying to cover his inner dweebiness by acting selfish and fake-tough, because he thinks that's what real men do. I couldn't believe they had him marry the half-Klingon bitch who was genuinely tough, I always thought she'd see through his phony-tough facade, beat the shit out of him, and hold him in contempt forever after.

I mean, there was an episode where Paris and Kim ended up in an alien prison, and it was damned homoerotic.

I may be remembering this wrong, but I think there was some consideration early on for making Harry gay. Wang argued against it, saying that as one of the few Asian characters on TV at the time, it would be too much. I kind of see his point, but he really read as gay.

Although Garrett Wang is not a fag, and Margaret Cho is just the dame to prove it.

Jonathan Frakes, on the other hand, was genuinely attractive, even if he wasn't conventionally hot. The beard helped immensely and I didn't mind that he but beefy during the show's run, I like a big man. But Frakes totally grew into a character who'd started out as a generic heterosexual officer whose main function was to have an ongoing relationship with a women (something that was never done in the original show), but he became a hot daddy over the show's run. He let his sense of humor and his caring for other people show, he mellowed, he grew warm, and as he did all of that, he became manlier and more masculine.

Quite the opposite of the phony-tough inner-dweeb Paris.

Frakes was at peak hotness in the second season. That may have been the only good thing about it.

Well, and Pulaski. Yeah, I said it.

Riker was fat.

I always liked Pulaski, which makes two of us, R243. She was an unrepentant bitch, which made her appealing in a cast of goody-two-shoes characters, and how could a good Datalounger not love that?

Of course she was badly handled, her whole feud with Data was a bad retread of the old Spock-McCoy grousing and she was too much a female McCoy, but she could have grown into someone more interesting than the goody-two-shoes Doctor Crusher if given time. It's a pity she didn't last until the good scripts started coming along.

The problem with the "mean to Data" thing is that he was often portrayed as childlike, so it came across as meaner than Spock/McCoy.

[quote] even if he wasn't conventionally hot.

The hell you say.

"The problem with the "mean to Data" thing is that he was often portrayed as childlike, so it came across as meaner than Spock/McCoy."

That's what I meant by calling it a "bad" imitation of the old Spock-McCoy feud. Spock and McCoy genuinely disagreed about some things and could both dish it out as well as take it, so it seemed like equals butting heads without tipping over into genuine unprofessionalism.

But they made a mess of the whole Pulaski-Data thing, it shouldn't have come across as this bitch bullying someone childlike, it should have come across as someone bitchy hitting a brick wall as her target had no feelings and was incapable of taking offense. But because they could never make Data genuinely without emotions and kept trying to make him seem fucking cute, it all fell flat because of bad writing. Well, there was a lot of bad writing that season.

In today's Hollywood, the kind of weight gain Jonathan Frakes had would not be tolerated with a youngish, "hot" actor. He would've been given a personal trainer by the studio and forced to lose weight, all hell would've broken loose.

I like your take on Riker, R244. It was interesting that they had him turn back into a prat when Thomas Riker turned up. Some of my favorite episodes are Riker-based, like that one. And especially the one where he does the officer exchange program with the Klingons, great stuff. Riker is underappreciated.

Frakes was a newly married man who was making money steadily on a hit tv show, so there’s no doubt that he was eatin’ good. Men with girth may also run in his family. He couldn’t be Dukes of Hazzard-size all his life.

Pulaski was a hot sexy bitch rockin' her 80s mulletperm.

[quote]He couldn’t be Dukes of Hazzard-size all his life.

In today's Hollywood, as the male eye candy on a hit show, he would be forced to maintain that weight or else.

Nathan Fillion got heftier on Castle as the years went by, and didn’t drop the weight until his new show. Michael Weatherly has also fought the battle of the bulge for years with no detriment to his employment.

They're not early 30s sex symbols like Frakes was r256. Both of those guys are well into middle age.

I would be like Chris Evans getting fat. Unacceptable.

R235 Yes. Berman should get credit where credit is due. He did keep Star Trek on the air for over 15 years, and really until the latter half of Voyager, the franchise was doing strong. People also don't take into account how much the television landscape changed from 1987 to 2005. When TNG was on the air, it was literally the only major sci-fi show in America and it proved that sci-fi shows could be mainstream successes. Although DS9's ratings fell (TNG's ratings peaked during season 5) it remained the number one syndicated show on TV from the third season onward. Berman was the steady hand TNG needed and we shouldn't forget, that a lot of the decisions about Voyager and Enterprise are the hands of Paramount and UPN executives. Paramount was dead set against Voyager doing longer story arcs like DS9. That being said, Berman's lack of foresight and creative ability is ultimately what damaged the franchise in the long run.

R243 I don't recall there being an discussion of Kim being gay. I do remember when 7 of 9 was added to the cast there was talks about making her a lesbian but that was quickly dropped but picked up on by Star Trek: Picard.

R243 & 247 I am old enough to remember watching season 2 of TNG was it aired originally. Pulaski seemed liked a terrible addition to the show and I was glad when she was gone. Fast forward 30+ years later and I actually really like the character now. She had an edge to her that the other characters lacked and frankly something the show needed. Tonally Dr. Crusher was a better fit for the more 'placid' world of TNG, but Pulaski was a far more interesting character with a lot of potential....also Diana Muldaur is a better actress than Gates McFadden.

Which of the modern Star Treks is the best series? Asking because I watched TNG, which I loved, but none of the others, and I’d like to watch some of them.

Oh, r260, you're opening a can of worms now...

Indeed, r261!

R228 Where did you hear that McNeil was anti-gay?

I recall he did an celebrity AIDS bike run for a TV interview show (the late 90s CNN program Showbiz Today perhaps?) where he talked about the friends that he had lost from the disease. Most of these friends were probably gay/bisexual men in the entertainment industry at the time. I doubt he is anything like Isiah Washington when it comes to our community. Didn't he also perform on stage in the 1990s at one point in a pro-gay play like "Angels In America" or something similar?

First R260 , you need to at the very least watch DS9. As for the new series, my personal recommendation is for "Picard". But definitely don't waste your time on "Lower Decks" aka Rick & Morty meet Family Guy and shit on Star Trek.

R260 Yeah this is a loaded question and open to interpretation. TNG is pretty much universally beloved within the fandom, but then the divisions start around DS9, VOY, ENT, DIS, and Pic. Each show has its merits and its liabilities. Thematically, VOY (and to a lesser extent ENT) pretty much stays true to the format established by TNG (though many fans feel the quality of the franchise wanes with Voyager and flat lines in the first two seasons of Enterprise). DS9 is often critically hailed for character based stories, but some fans don't like it's more darker themes and more political stories (though DS9's legacy is more keenly felt in modern Trek than any other show). For me: TNG is my sentimental favourite because I grew up on in, but I think DS9 is the best written version of Trek to date, while Voyager is kind of my go to when I just want some mindless Trek entertainment.

R260 I've watched them all & I love Voyager the most.

Season 1-3 from THG, DS9 & Enterprise are hard to sit thru.

I think lots of Voyager's episodes are put in poor order.

The writers should have put some of Torres's Klingon episodes back to back like "Barge OF The Dead" & "Prophesy" (the first deals with her mom & I think the 2nd deal's with her dad). Watching them back to back recently made her family dynamic more real for me.

I wish Neelix had his "Riddles" episode with Tuvok (which shows a different side of his relationship with Tuvok) first, then his "Klingon affair" episode (which again shows us his complicated relationship with Tuvok) then his "Homestead" episode (where Tuvok gives his touching goodbye to him) followed by "Fury" where Kes comes back. It would've made a more powerful final scene between Kes & him if he had shown that he had chosen his new Talaxian family over her.

I loved Voyager esp. after Ryan joined. It's like comfort tv to me. Mulgrew was fantastic as Janeway, I can't imagine another actress in the part.

I like the odd episode of DS9 but I just couldn't get into it like the other Treks. I thought the Bajoran/Cardassian conflict was rather boring and they went way overboard with it.

Of course TNG is the gold standard. Yes they had some ridiculous episodes (every series does) but overall it was such a quality show. Although of course some of it is quite dated now.

'In the Pale Moonlight' from season 6 of DS9 is my favourite of the series -- even Avery Brooks' over-the-top acting cannot wreck it. "IT'S A FAKE!!"

I hated her back when I was a kid, but Pulaski rocks it now. Unlike Beverly, she actually has a personality and can act. It’s sad to hear that the cast treated her so horribly. She’s candid in interviews but doesn’t sound at all bitter. Marina Sirtis still makes digs about her using cue cards. Sirtis should just be grateful her character didn’t get technobabble and shut her mouth.

I hated her back when I was a kid, but Pulaski rocks it now. Unlike Beverly, she actually has a personality and can act. It’s sad to hear that the cast treated her so horribly. She’s candid in interviews but doesn’t sound at all bitter. Marina Sirtis still makes digs about her using cue cards. Sirtis should just be grateful her character didn’t get technobabble and shut her mouth.

Y'all are making me think I should rewatch the second season.

R261 may have opened a can of worms but I empathize, I loved TOS and TNG and then hated DS9. Just hated it. I should revisit it, I haven't tried watching it since its original run. ENT was boring, its production values reminded me of those weird sci-fi series that Renaissance Film Productions tried to get off the ground, like MANTIS. Just cheap and dull.

[quote] ENT was boring,

In the beginning quite so but they as time passed they found their inner Kirk. Unfortunately by then most people had written them off and missed out.

DS9 is phenomenal once it hits its stride (the third season, particularly by the prophetic mid season two-parter “Past Tense”). It’s also aged far better than any of the older shows. It had a fantastic cast that truly grew to become a family, albeit a realistically dysfunctional one. I swear if you rewatch it, by the time you get to the final season you’ll never want it to end. There’s an episode called ‘The Visitor’ which may be the finest episode Star Trek ever made, and if you don’t end up a blubbering wreck you officially have no soul.

I’m afraid by comparison Voyager and Enterprise fight do it for me and I ended up bailing on both. I finally finished rewatching then about 10 years ago and doing so just confirmed I hadn’t missed much. I think the problem was Rick Berman was heavily involved in both and by that point he, and the franchise, was running on fumes. It ended and the right time and really needed a long break.

DS9 had a few tear jerkers.

Especially the one with Tony Todd as Sisko's adult son. Very touching and Todd should have won an Emmy.

Another one was the baseball episode where Sisko desperately wanted to beat the obnoxious Vulcan team. The Ferengi was an awful player so Sisko kept benching him. Then he finally realizes how much it means to the Ferengi and let's him play in the big game which ensured the loss but they still celebrated anyways. The Vulcan team captain was like, " but you lost."

The characterization on DS9 was off the hook, too.

I remember there was one where Worf and somebody else got captured and sent to a Dominion prison camp. Once they get there, they run into Bashir who was wearing the old style uniform not the new ones.

Now this has stretched over many episodes of him being imprisoned with a Changeling having replaced him but the writers never gave one clue that this had ever happened...at least not that I can remember. It was a total mind fuck.

I am mainly kidding, but I think people could never get past Enterprise's theme song.

I would actually put DS9's finding its footing in the back half of the second season. Some of the show's strongest episodes come from that run. It also introduces the Maquis for Voyager, but in typical DS9 fashion, used them in much more interesting ways than Voyager ever did. See also: Worf.

[quote]I remember there was one where Worf and somebody else

Garak. Another thing that DS9 does more like a contemporary show, build out a big cast of supporting and recurring characters, who are as integral to the story as the main crew.

That episode has one of my favorite moments. Worf is forced to fight with a succession of Jem'Hadar, and by the end is just getting pummeled. General Martok tells him that he's more than proved himself and it's okay if he stops fighting and allow himself to be killed so he can be released from his pain. Worf refuses to yield, which leads the Jem'Hadar First to yield instead, saying that while he can kill Worf, he won't be able to defeat him. *Sniff*

As much as Dorn loves his TNG castmates, he's prouder of DS9. You can tell.

I loved Martok so much.

I agree about DS9 getting into its groove in season 2 already. It didn't quite tell the stories people wanted (Maquis and Bajorian religion), but the way of story telling already found its stride. It also started the dominion arc.

About Enterprise's intro: I don't know what they were thinking. TNG had the grand intro from the movies, and ENT ended up with the 'smallest' piece of music intro possible. There was nothing grand on the show, everything looked smaller and grayer than all the other shows before. Not a good way to sway people away. Maybe this is criticism that's easier in hindsight but still. Just watch the TNG intro again, with Patrick Stewart's voice over. You are cold inside if you don't get the chills from this epic opening.

TNG is my sentimental favorite, but objectively it hasn't aged very well. And some episodes are some of the worst in Trek history.

I don't know if this will make any sense, but I also feel like DS9 hit the idea of Chosen Family better than any of the other series. The TNG cast certainly does as people, but they never quite sold it on screen in the same way. Voyager talked about it a lot, but REALLY didn't do it in a believable way.

But the DS9 folks...even if they fought and didn't always like each other, they always seemed to love each other. Odo and Quark drove each other crazy, but they would have been miserable without each other. And that's maybe BECAUSE they weren't all besties behind the scenes. Avery Brooks was very detached and treated it strictly as a job, but the rest of them clearly respect the hell out of him. And of course, Sisko's best quality (at the insistence of Brooks) was that he was a Really Good Dad.

"Nerys, please - Tell everyone I'll miss them."

"Even Quark?"

"Even Quark."

[Quote]am mainly kidding, but I think people could never get past Enterprise's theme song

I love, love, love the opening. It's bombastic, corny, spine-tingling and epic all at once it's a very emotive piece of music.

As silly as the theme is, I have to confess I like it too. More of the awesome graphics than the song, but it works together.

This thread has inspired me to go back and watch DS9. I watched it intermittently when it was first on. I was starting my career working long hours so I didn't make much of an effort to tape. I sometimes found all of the ongoing conflicts tedious, but since I missed a lot of episodes I lacked context. I can't seem to get into new dramas. This will comfort and nostalgia watching.

[quote]TNG is my sentimental favorite, but objectively it hasn't aged very well. And some episodes are some of the worst in Trek history.

And some are also the best in Trek history.

It seems like the terrible ones were the result of budget problems and other limitations so they could focus on a few really good episodes.

And, if you disagree with me, I'll have you ejected into space.

No one gives enough credit for “Face of the Enemy” to Carolyn Seymour.

No, don’t EJECT me into SPACE. I’ll eject myself.

TNG is my sentimental favourite although I agree with what others have said that it hasn't aged well and I'll admit that I rarely watch these days. But I love that cast and it was the show I grew up on. I think one of the reasons why I find TNG harder to watch nowadays is all the exposition. Let's face it, TV today is much quicker paced (almost to the point of ADHD) and it's rare for scenes to last more than a few minutes. TNG has episodes where conference scenes last 5 to 10 minutes. Not that it's a bad thing, but I do find it harder to sit through.

DS9 is without a shadow of a doubt the best written, most complex, and most realistic Star Trek series. One thing DS9 did was change the Trek philosophy slightly. Yes, Earth is a paradise but that doesn't mean the rest of the galaxy is. Like TNG, DS9 has a rocky start. It took the show three seasons to really find itself and for all the elements to come together. Also like Picard, the writers and Avery Brooks don't really 'find' Sisko until the 4th season. DS9 is worth it, but getting over the earlier episodes can be challenging.

VOY probably had the strongest start of any Trek spin-off, but the show's quality wanes as it goes along compared to TNG or DS9 which got stronger the longer it was on the air (though I would argue that the 7th season of DS9 and TNG are weaker). To me it's the weakest of the Trek shows of that era. It lacked significant character development, never lived up to it's potential of a ship alone against insurmountable odds, was riddled with continuity errors, and always fell back on old tropes. Additionally, VOY is the least "issues" Trek series. TNG and DS9 often dealt with morality issues and occasional social commentary, Voyager doesn't really do that at all. That being said, I agree with the notion that Voyager is comfort TV. It's immensely re-watchable because you can watch episodes at random from any season and not be lost at all. Nothing really changes on the show and the only things you need to know about Voyager is that 7 of 9 joins that cast halfway through.

Brent Spiner does seem like an asshole. His smitten (female) fans try to justify his snarkyness by saying "it's just his dry, sarcastic wit!" He's not really as witty and funny as he things he is. He reminds me of Robin Williams in way in that he's always "on", always trying to et a laugh, always trying to "amuse." And he hates cats. He hated the cats who played Spot the Cat with a passion because the cats didn't obey on command and would shooting to run late. At one convention session he said it straight out "I HATED that cat!" He got some boos from the audience for that. He's since claimed he doesn't hate cats, but it's obvious from the things that he says about the poor cats who played Spot that he does.

And isn't Spiner gay? Or maybe asexual? He has this weird vibe about him that way and he has no chemistry with any female actress he's done a love scene with. He supposedly married (although I don't think that's ever been verified) and he has a son. His "wife" looks like one of the Stepford Wives, like a robot. At conventions he frequently mentions his son but not his wife. At a convention someone asked him if he was single. He didn't say "no, I'm married to my wonderful wife Lori" or anything like that. He just said "No." It seemed weird.

[quote]Also like Picard, the writers and Avery Brooks don't really 'find' Sisko until the 4th season.

You can blame that one on the studio (and possibly Berman). The writers and Brooks had a very clear idea of who Sisko was, but the problem was that the studio thought it was too...shall we say "street" and forbade him from even shaving his head until the 4th season. The comments in the documentary from the rest of the cast (to a person) showed their disgust at the mandates.

Penny Johnson-Jerald also talked about how sexy she thought his shaved head was and how she loved touching it. She's not wrong.

Enterprise actually had a decent instrumental theme, though played over the closing credits. The only issue is the main instrument is a soaring electric guitar which dates it. There is a violinist who made a video for YouTube in which she plays a medley of all the ST series themes in chronological order. She's quite good, and some of her performance pales compared to the original studio recordings, but hearing "Enterprise" played by soaring strings instead of a rock guitar makes a galaxy of difference. This is what should have been over the opening credits.

I listen to what many DLers would consider the worst adult contemporary dreck ever created, but even I fast forward through that "going where my heart will take me, faith of the heart" crap.

For everyone talking about how great Marina and Jeri looked in the regular uniform, so did Jolene Blalock.

Even the pajama looking uniform they gave her in the third season was a vast improvement.

This is going off topic since he wasn’t in TNG specifically, but does anyone have any dirt about Jeffrey Combs on the trek sets? He always pinged for me but claims to be straight.

[quote]And isn't Spiner gay? Or maybe asexual?

Well, he did do musical theater, and was in the original Broadway cast of "Sunday in the Park With George."

And he released an album of standards.

[quote]I’m probably becoming the Jeffrey Combs troll

Someone has to!

I preferred Weyoun 6 over the others.

Frakes's taut buns in the "Data. something's got me!" seen are the best thing in any Trek series.

I wish you hadn't done that. That was the last Weyoun clone.

[quote] Patrick Stewart's bulge was so huge his costumes had to be specially made to hide the meat and veg, which proved difficult for the wardrobe department.

I've heard that said not about Patrick Stewart but Denise Crosby.

[quote] Frakes's taut buns in the "Data. something's got me!" seen

Oh, [italic]dear.[/italic]

[quote] And isn't Spiner gay?

I always wondered about Evan Evagora, Elnor from PICARD. Cannot really tell. He seems to be a bit of an enigma in this regard, doesn't he?

I hated Marina's Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio "Scarface" hair in the pilot.

R303 That's actually Marina's real hair. Marina wore her real hair in the pilot, and then used wigs. She only used her real hair in First Contact, Insurrection and her appearances on Voyager. For whatever reason, Marina wore a wig again in Nemesis (which she then stole and used for her appearance on Picard). Gates McFadden use her real hair in the pilot, and then switched between wigs and her real hair for much of the first season. When she returned, she wore wigs until the the sixth season episode "True Q" and then wore her real hair for the rest of her appearances as Beverly.

R302 I think Evan Evagora is straight. I think on another thread someone mentioned there were pics of him with a girlfriend on IG which were later deleted after they appeared to break up.

[43] and [46] Sorry to burst your bubbles about Frakes being bi-sexual, or living with a man. He's totally straight, married (to Genie Francis) for many years, with two kids. In the 80s, he was a roommate of Nathan Cook, and actor. They had both gone to Penn State. Sadly, Nathan died from complications with penicillin. But other than being friends... nothing more.

There was some "Crew Profile" of Data that featured Brent Spiner and people who worked with him. It also contained some film of Spiner recording his album of standards. Patrick Stewart, LeVar Burton, Jonathan Frakes and Michael Dorn did backup vocals on it. At one point during the segment Michael Dorn blurts out about Spiner "He sings like a WOMAN!" And he was right. He does!

I'm watching a random season two episode right now (jealous, betazoids?) and Pulaski is being a bigot already. Muldaur does have more screen presence than McFadden though.

There was a good crotch shot of Riker in the teaser.

[43] and [46] - Sorry to burst your bubble about being long-time posters here and not drawn by a Google alert.

What I've never understood in any Trek is why they use so few hot actors who can act and opt for not hot actors whose acting is so-so.

I mean the hot list is pretty short, even if you include women: Jeri Ryan, Jolene Blalock, Connor Trineer, Scott Bakula.

Even the characters who are supposed to be attractive like Riker and Chakotay are not all that good looking. Stephen Collins may be a creep, but at least he was hot like he was supposed to be when he played Decker in TMP.

Check the generations r309. Of course, focal points to sex objects change over the years?, right?

[quote]I mean the hot list is pretty short, even if you include women: Jeri Ryan, Jolene Blalock, Connor Trineer, Scott Bakula.

..Nichols, Takei, Siddiq, Farrell, Wang, Montgomery...

Why is R309 wondering why Star Trek couldn't be Melrose Place. Even after all these years.

It's a shame they never made a Laurel and Hardy biopic. Spiner would have been the perfect Stan Laurel.

Patrick Stewart was really hot, even though he was a daddy. His body was in fabulous shape.

I mean, he was 56 in First Contact, and he had these arms...

[quote]Why is [R309] wondering why Star Trek couldn't be Melrose Place.

No one is asking for Melrose Place casting. But, when you position a character as a leading man, he ought to be, rather than have character actor looks.

I wonder what a male version of Seven would look like. Chris Evans with a codpiece?

[quote] Even the characters who are supposed to be attractive like Riker and Chakotay are not all that good looking

In what universe was Jonathan Frakes not all that good looking?

Michelle Forbes wasn't bad looking?

For the discussion of the Enterprise theme, the closing credits music is called "Archer's Theme" and is was composed by Dennis McCarthy, who won an Emmy for the DS9 theme.

Interestingly, it's also exactly the same length as the opening credits and has instrumentation and key changes that synch to advancements in the technology on screen.

Hmmmm.

"In what universe was Jonathan Frakes not all that good looking?"

I never found him to be all that. He looked better with a beard; it helped cover up his pudgy face.

Here's something strange. At Trek conventions when asked how he was cast as Data Brent Spiner claims he was originally offered the role of Riker. Brent Spiner as the ship's resident sex symbol? That seems rather hard to believe. I never thought Frakes was particularly handsome but he certainly looked more attractive than Spiner. Spiner has a face meant for comedy roles.

Has anyone talked about Mulgrew's being raped. I wonder if that's what turned her into such a bitch.

[quote]Here's something strange. At Trek conventions when asked how he was cast as Data Brent Spiner claims he was originally offered the role of Riker. Brent Spiner as the ship's resident sex symbol?

I actually think that might have been true.

There are some interesting near-misses in the TNG cast too. We talked about some of the Rikers, but Yaphet Kotto auditioned for Picard (and I think Sisko as well), as did Roy Thinnes. I think they actually offered the part to Edward James Olmos. They had quite a few potential Datas, including at least one woman.

I'm glad they cast Data as a man, a man who looks like his creator. It's creepy, but if a male scientist had made a female android, and made it at least moderately attractive, everyone would assume it was intended to be a moving Real Doll more than a person.

And I just don't think the Trek people in the 80s would have thought of a female scientist making a female android in her own image.

R317 Actually I think Chris Hemsworth's coloring is closer to Jeri Ryan's. So yeah, Chris Hemsworth with a codpiece and padded pecs.

[quote]I'm glad they cast Data as a man, a man who looks like his creator.

When they first had Dr. Soong in an episode, they nearly didn't have Spiner play him, because they weren't sure of his playing Data, Lore, and Soong was feasible.

Jeri Ryan is germanic so it'd have to be someone german. Not flavor of the month Chris. Puke.

Hemsworth isn't Germanic? He sure looks it to me.

Y'all are being a bit literal about this male eye candy thought experiment.

R309 Objectively, Enterprise probably has the best looking cast of the entire franchise with only one actor being average (John Billingsley...who is actually one of the best actors on the show but never got anything to do). BTW, allegedly UPN was heavily involved in the casting of Enterprise which is why the cast was younger and more "Hollywood looking."

Star Trek is a sci-fi franchise aimed at straight male viewers between the ages of 18-35, so the physical appearance of male actors didn't matter nearly as much. Interestingly, modern Trek seems to have flipped that and I think many of the male actors in Trek today are better looking than the woman...I mean: Anson Mount, Ethan Peck, Santiago Cabrera, Evan Evagora.

[quote]BTW, allegedly UPN was heavily involved in the casting of Enterprise which is why the cast was younger and more "Hollywood looking."

They also pushed hard to cast Eric Close as Trip, but Braga wanted Connor Trineer, and stuck to his guns.

R331 I'm glad because Connor Trinner is one of the few highlights of Enterprise. I loved Archer and Trip's relationship (and assumed Archer was the bottom).

R331 also Simon MacCorkindale was Paramount's first choice for Archer but he turned them down wanting to stay in the UK.

According to Simon MacCorkindale, at least. Braga has said that the only person they seriously considered was Bakula.

I have never really understood why Bakula didn't work as Archer. I don't think I've ever seen him in another part that I didn't like him in, but it just didn't click.

Conor Trineer was great, it's too bad his career tanked.

R334 I adore Scott Bakula in fact, I'm pretty sure he's the first celebrity I ever blew my load to when I was a teenager. I think the summer of 9th grade, a local station used to play rereuns of Quantum Leap in the wee hours of the morning. The nutted to the episode where he's in the circus in those skintight white pants that left NOTHING to the imagination.

But yes, he didn't work as Archer and I think the reason for that was a lack of authority in his performance. It's hard to put into words but if you look at Patrick Stewart, Kate Mulgrew or Avery Brooks (particularly from the 4th season onward), there is a sense "militarily leadership" there, you believe that the crew would follow these people. Whereas Bakula's performances felt constrained and forced, he just seemed too "soft" in the role. He's a great actor, but I think this part was just out of his range.

[quote][R334] I adore Scott Bakula in fact, I'm pretty sure he's the first celebrity I ever blew my load to when I was a teenager. I think the summer of 9th grade, a local station used to play rereuns of Quantum Leap in the wee hours of the morning. The nutted to the episode where he's in the circus in those skintight white pants that left NOTHING to the imagination.

What about the one where he leaped into one of the space program chimpanzees and ran around for an hour like this?

The only episode where I thought he really fired on all cylinders was "Twilight," and that's largely because the plot called for him to do the same thing he was so good at on QL--be confused for an hour.

I cannot believe anyone liked Enterprise. It was absolutely terrible. Trekkies hated it. It was just sex sex sex! And fans saw through the ruse.

[quote]He looked better with a beard; it helped cover up his pudgy face.

Pudgy face? Erm...no.

Well, r338, as was mentioned upthread, the show changed a lot between its first and fourth season. Season three and four both somewhat rebooted the show. So when you say "it" was terrible, you need to be more specific which version of the show you mean.

Don't bother, R339, there's a contingent here who would pick on Karen Carpenter for being flabby.

R388 Season four of Enterprise is actually up there with one of the best seasons of any Trek series. Sadly, season four represents what the series should have been from day one. In all honesty thought, even if Enterprise had been the best Trek show ever written, it wouldn't have succeeded. If you were alive and a Star Trek fan by the late 90s, you'll remember the franchise fatigue that was at work then. Fans were frustrated with Berman and the declining quality of Voyager and Insurrection. The franchise really should have taken a break after Voyager and hired new talent. It's kind of laughable now to think that Enterprise was originally being marketed as the franchise's saviour.

I really never objected to the idea of Enterprise, and coming as it did a few weeks after 9/11, there was something about it that gave me a "We're going to be okay" feeling when I most needed it. I just think they had all this potential, and then immediately fell back into being a photocopy of Voyager, which in turn was a photocopy of TNG.

Marina Sirtis is a cock-sucking WHORE!

Enterprise was the gateway drug for Trek to go back and retcon everything.

The show was fine - not great, not terrible. But, I will never forgive it for making people think it was okay to go backwards instead of forward and play fast and loose with continuity.

R335 Did any of the Enterprise cast (besides Bakula and John Billingsly) have careers after that show? Trinner really should have been bigger given he was both attractive and talented but I think he was probably typecast and Enterprise was deemed to be a failure when it was cancelled.

Judging from that photo at R339 Frakes certainly does look better with his carb face covered by a beard.

Favorites Trek moments - 1.

Yes, I KNOW it's not TNG.

[quote] Judging from that photo at [R339] Frakes certainly does look better with his carb face covered by a beard.

Oh, I get it. You’re trolling.

[quote]Did any of the Enterprise cast (besides Bakula and John Billingsly) have careers after that show?

Linda Park, despite having a reputation as a bitch and some health struggles, does TV work here and there, and she's had recurring parts on two series since Enterprise.

Jolene Blalock married REAAAAALY well and doesn't need to work.

Favorite Trek Moments - 2

Yes, I KNOW it's not TNG.

Favorite Trek Moments - 3

Etc.

Favorite Trek Moments - 4

It IS from TNG!

Yes, Jolene Blalock married the CEO of Live Nation (CHA-CHING!) either right before or right after Enterprise ended and has never had to worry about booking another job since. They're still married and have kids.

Favorite Trek Moments - 5

When Riker had a little boyfriend who turned out to be a shapeshifter who would do ANYTHING and be ANYTHING to keep Riker close.

r353 I can't remember the name of that episode, but it was one of the WORST. It was the planet full of horny maniacs who wore diapers.

"Justice."

And then they tried to put Wesley today for stepping on some flowers.

They should have tried harder.

[quote]It was the planet full of horny maniacs who wore diapers.

Datalounge?

Haha r358. Horny maniacs who wore diapers and were obsessed with FOLLIES.

Favorite Trek Moments - 6

When men on TNG wore Space Skirts.

To this day I cannot believe that the script for Insurrection was greenlighted for a feature film, the should've burned it and never spoken of it again. Especially coming off of First Contact, which was such a strong film. WTF were they thinking with that turd of a movie?

The only good thing about Insurrection is Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis's commentary track on the DVD. Sirtis was very funny:

"What the hell is going on here? Who are these people? I don't even remember filming this scene."

That track is great. She spends half of the time confused and the other half correctly identifying plot holes.

She admitted that she'd fallen asleep at the premier.

[quote]To this day I cannot believe that the script for Insurrection was greenlighted for a feature film

And yet, it was a masterpiece compared to Nemesis.

Marina Sirtis is funnier than a lot of stand up comics, the woman is a scream. Watch her con appearances on Youtube. She's also great with audience questions.

ST:TNG had a lot of really bad episodes. One of them featured Data in drag . Another had him getting comedy lessons from Joe Piscopo. Then there was the episode where the leader of a planet of African aliens wants to make Yar his wife, whether she wants to be his consort or not. God, some of those shows were SO bad.

The African episode is unbelievable now. WTF were they thinking? Even for the 80s it was pretty inappropriate.

R361 Insurrection has a bit of a complicated history. The film was green-lit the opening weekend of First Contact. Paramount and Berman wanted Ronald D. Moore and Brannon Braga (who had written the previous two TNG films) to write it, but they turned it down because they knew instinctively they couldn't top FC. Berman drafted Michael Piller to write the screenplay. Piller original wrote a much darker script entitled Star Trek: Stardust which was loosely based on the novella Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad and involved Picard having to kill Data. Paramount rejected the script because they wanted the next film the be lighter in tone. It was Berman who came up with the fountain of youth idea. The film needed more drafts (Piller admitted to this several times before his death) but Paramount wanted to rush the film into production so it could be out by November 1998.

I maybe alone in this, but I actually prefer Insurrection to Nemesis and Generations.

[quote] I maybe alone in this, but I actually prefer Insurrection to Nemesis and Generations.

Agree, but that's not a high bar

Generations was the worst.

Even Part 5 was superior to that shitfest.

The only thing that saved Nemesis was Tom Hardy, who was quite fuckable with his cute bald head.

In retrospect, Insurrection wasn't that bad.

I liked Generations. I thought it had some really good moments and the right tone.

I think Generations' problems are A) they didn't seem to trust the audience to follow the TNG crew without having to throw in Shatner (I mean, I LOVE the "don't let them promote you, don't let them transfer you" scene, but it's not worth the rest of it), B) they still shot on sets that weren't meant to be seen on a big screen. I mean, I get that it's a phenomenal waste of money to rebuild things that are just going to end up destroyed, but they really cheaped out on adapting them, just doing minor upgrades and using dim lighting to hide the rest.

The parts that are good are REALLY good, though.

[quote]Yes, Jolene Blalock married the CEO of Live Nation (CHA-CHING!) either right before or right after Enterprise ended and has never had to worry about booking another job since. They're still married and have kids.

By all accounts, they seem to have a pretty solid marriage. She wouldn't have had a hard time going down the Real Housewives path, and I think it's really to her credit that she didn't.

Instead, she runs a foundation that invests in developing countries and does disaster relief. They're building a reservoir in Haiti right now to provide farmers with clean water. They have a 100% rating on CharityNavigator. She's good people.

The only part of Generations I'll re-watch are aboard Enterprise B.

And let's get real. If the Matrix worked as advertised Kirk would have not come back fat

[quoteWhen men on TNG wore Space Skirts.

Apparently regulations specified that if you wore the skirt you had to shave your legs. Or maybe that was just another one of those Starfleet fashion fads.

What I want to know is, why was TNG so unitarded? Those one piece outfits were not flattering on most of the guest stars.

By the way I just watched another season two ep and Pulaski has gone from shockingly rude to merely condescending. That's honestly a lot of growth between two episodes.

I love Jennifer Lien running naked around her front yard and getting busted by the cops.

[quote]The only part of Generations I'll re-watch are aboard Enterprise B.

The one thing that Generations unambiguously has going for it: Dennis McCarthy's score.

R369 I saw Insurrection in theaters when I was a teenager and then didn't it watch again until 2 or 3 years ago. Prior to re-watching it, I was in the camp about what terrible film it was, but I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it when I watched it again. It's not a great film and has a terribly weak plot, but it's fun and I think that's why I enjoyed it. I love the TNG cast and I think Insurrection more than the other three films plays on that chemistry and it's a really good nostalgia watch.

Generations, I can't sit through. I think it was too low key a movie for the TNG's cast first outing and the writers were too busy trying to subvert expectations.

Nemesis, I think, gets unfairly labelled as terrible because it's the film that ended the TNG movie franchise and bombed at the box office. It's not a great film by any means, but it does look and feel more cinematic than Gens or Ins. You can tell it's trying to be more than just another TNG outing. The issue is, the script needed another round of edits and they had a director who knew nothing of Star Trek. Most of the character scenes were cut and Data's death was absolutely terrible. But I still think it's pretty much TNG's second best film and that's not saying much.

[quote]Nemesis, I think, gets unfairly labelled as terrible because it's the film that ended the TNG movie franchise and bombed at the box office.

Their first mistake was opening a week before Two Towers. They were probably hoping that when screenings of that were sold out, they'd pick Nemesis as a second choice. Boy did they call that wrong. It's fairly high the list of biggest first-weekend dropoffs.

[quote]Spiner and Gates McFadden knew each other before they did Star Trek from the theater circuit in New York.

I went to a Trek convention a looooong time ago - I think the show had just gone off the air - and almost the only thing I remember is Spiner saying, "I knew Gates when she was Cheryl."

I have no idea why this has prompted me to re-watch Generations.

I wish the Enterprise-B stuff had been its own movie.

R378 Yes, the release date for Nemesis was, in retrospect, one of the factors in why it bombed so spectacularly (franchise fatigue and poor critical reception being the other major reasons). You are correct that part of Paramount's rationale for releasing Nemesis in December 2002 was that they believe the film would get the "overrun" business from sold out holiday screenings of The Two Towers and Harry Potter. In fact, this is one of the reasons why over 40 minutes off footage was cut from the film. Paramount wanted the run time under two hours to allow theaters to offer more screenings of Nemesis.

Nemesis got lost in the shuffle of three major films: Twin Towers, Chamber of Secrets and Die Another Die. The movie came out the week before one of the most anticipated sci-fi/fantasy films of the year and therefore much of the general audience that would be most inclined to see a film like Nemesis stayed home because they planned on seeing The Two Towers. This is why it came in second at the box office that weekend, being beaten by JLO's Maid in Manhattan.

As I mentioned, franchise fatigue was another huge reason the movie bombed. I vividly remember that the script for Nemesis leaked on the internet in the summer of 2002 and it was panned by fans. I also remember John Logan trying to do spin by saying that the version online was an earlier draft...it wasn't, it proved to be the shooting script. The fandom didn't like the script and added to this the outright hatred most Trek fans had for Berman by this point was all a recipe for disaster.

[quote][R369] I saw Insurrection in theaters when I was a teenager and then didn't it watch again until 2 or 3 years ago. Prior to re-watching it, I was in the camp about what terrible film it was, but I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it when I watched it again. It's not a great film and has a terribly weak plot, but it's fun and I think that's why I enjoyed it. I love the TNG cast and I think Insurrection more than the other three films plays on that chemistry and it's a really good nostalgia watch.

Leonard Nimoy knew for STIV (and Simon Pegg also knew for Star Trek Beyond) that if every member of the cast (except poor Gates) gets something fun to do, they will have a good time and the audience will also have a good time. The movie is so silly (and the Data parts are awful), but you also get the genuinely good Riker and Troi plot. The movie has plenty of faults, but they're not on the cast and they're not on Frakes, who directed the hell out of it.

[quote]The fandom didn't like the script and added to this the outright hatred most Trek fans had for Berman by this point was all a recipe for disaster.

At least it gave them some things to reuse in Enterprise to help stretch its budget. They recycled the Reman uniforms for the Xindi Reptilians, and I'm sure it freed up money to make the other Xindi species more distinctive.

The next episode of Star Trek Discovery is called Unification III - a continuation of TNG's Unification I & II with Spock on Romulus.

I'm actually excited to see it.

Brent Spiner reportedly refused to be in that awful "Nemesis (which he co-wrote) unless the character of Data was killed off. And he wonders why the movie flopped. What an idiot.

[quote]Brent Spiner reportedly refused to be in that awful "Nemesis (which he co-wrote) unless the character of Data was killed off. And he wonders why the movie flopped. What an idiot.

I didn't care about him being killed off. I just objected to yet another set of Spiner demanding to be actor-y.

Besides, you want indulgent, let's consider Stewart insisting on that goddamn dune buggy.

I moved on to First Contact. Whatever they paid Jerry Goldsmith for that sweeping theme, it wasn't enough.

[quote]I moved on to First Contact. Whatever they paid Jerry Goldsmith for that sweeping theme, it wasn't enough.

That really was the best since TMP.

I have a real fondness for Cliff Eidelman's Undiscovered Country score, but First Contact is awfully close.

R385 must have watched the Red Letter Media reviews? Or is he Jay? Mr. Plinkett tears Patrick Stewart up pretty good over the dune buggy incident.

I don't think I've ever watched a Red Letter Media video (I only vaguely know what it is), but I do know that whole thing only happened because Stewart wanted it.

Imagine the universe where Lieutenant Hawk, rather than being played by noted homophobe Neil McDonough, was instead played by non-homophobe Adam Scott, who had to settle for being the Defiant helmsman with two lines.

In addition to the notorious Plinkett Star Wars prequel reviews, RLM also has very good YouTube reviews of various Trek productions.

I gotta say, for late-stage Riker, Frakes looks damned good in First Contact. He'd have been very popular at Bear Week.

Why, it's JB Fletcher's beloved nephew Grady!

[quote] Wil Wheaton was a pass-around bottom.

Was?

Now he's a passed out bottom.

We need a DS9 thread.

Whoopi Goldberg stuck out like a sore thumb on that show. How did she get cast in a Star Trek tv series? I heard it happened like this. When she heard Gene Roddenberry was going to do another Star Trek tv series she contacted him and kissed his ass from here to kingdom come, gushing about how she lovedlovedloved the original Star Trek and how Uhura was one of her role models and how she'd lovelovebloe to be part of any new Star Trek series. So she got the part she begged for, some kind of all knowing, all seeing alien named Guinan who runs the ship's bar. The role consisted of her sitting behind the bar, clad in purple with a matching satellite dish hat on her head, looking infuriatingly smug and dispensing sage advice to all the crew members who have no clue how to handle problems of a personal nature. I detested Guinan, who was only a vehicle for Whoopi Goldberg. And I always thought than since she was considered such a font of wisdom why didn't they just go to HER whenever there was a crisis on the ship: "The Klingons have surrounded the ship and taken Captain Picard hostage. Quick, let's go to the bar and aski Guinan what to do! She'll know! She knows EVERYTHING!"

I think they wrote her very much in the way that she didn't know. When Riker was fighting Locutus, her advice was somewhat helpful, but her advice was never very practical. And it's not that she knew the future.

She was kind of like Yoda. He also was a mysterious one-of-a-kind alien with a big mouth and not much else to offer.

Since they could never be sure of Whoopi's availability, they used to write Guinan's lines to be ambiguous enough that Troi could deliver them if she wasn't free that week.

I will never hate on Whoopi for one reason: She was the first person to get the door cracked for gay people. In the episode "The Offspring," where Data builds a daughter, Guinan has to explain love to the daughter, Lal. The line was scripted "When a man and a woman..." and Whoopi informed Frakes (who directed) that she would be saying "When two people..." That even almost got same-sex couples placed in Ten Forward for the scene, until Berman freaked out.

And I adored when Stewart was on the View promoting Picard, and he told her that he'd really like her to come do an episode. It was clearly a complete surprise: she teared up and said yes. Guinan seems to have meant the world to her.

"Guinan seems to have meant the world to her."

Oh, please! That role was just another way to promote herself. She wanted to be part of a major franchise become of the money and prestige. That's all there was to it. Stop giving Whoopi Goldberg all these noble attributes. It's always been about herself.

Okay, Rosie. Whatever.

R391 Frakes look rested and appeared to have lost weight and buffed up a bit for First Contact. I also think Gates McFadden looks spectular in FC (minus the dated Jennifer Aniston haircut). Just prior to filming FC, McFadden was a regular on a TV series called The Marker which started Richard Grieco. It was filmed in Hawaii and the sun bleached her hair blonde and she decided to keep it and that's why Crusher looks tanned in some scenes and not in others.

[quote]McFadden was a regular on a TV series called The Marker which started Richard Grieco.

Oh, I hope Gates fucked him.

Was that her real hair? I mean, we know about Gates and her wigs.

R403 Gates stopped wearing wigs from season 6 ("True Q" to be exact) right through Nemesis. I don't know about her and Richard Grieco but she was married at the time but that marriage ended sometime in the early 00s.

Gates didn’t wear wigs. She always had nice hair, as is evidenced in this cast interview.

She did. I don't quite understand why though. As r405's clip shows, her hair was beautiful.

R405 Yes, Gates wore wigs until season six, she talks about it all the time on Twitter. The hair style she wears in this video is actually longer that she ever had it on the show.

R406 Gates and Marina wore wigs because the wigs could be styled without them having to be there. Gates says she stopped wearing wigs, because they were giving her a headache due to the heat that collected in it.

Here is a clip of Gates on The Joan Rivers Show. At 4:00 they talk about Gates wearing wigs on TNG.

I guess I thought the horrible Irish Setter looking hairdo she had in the first season was because she had kind of thin, unhealthy hair.

She does look great in First Contact. Honestly, so did Marina.

Frakes said on the commentary track that they were all happy to get to go on location (in addition to the scenes shot around LA, they also filmed in Tucson for a few days) and got to hang out and wear something other than the uniforms.

The real dirt about Trek is the utter cultural bankruptcy of the 24th century Federation. Anytime anybody wanted to perform in a play, hear music, or read novels they had to refer to Elizabethan England, jazz New York or pulp fiction from pre-WW2 San Francisco.

At least Babylon 5 had Rebo and Zooty.

Thankfully, they seem to have found the money to license songs for Disco.

Marina’s hair on the show was an obvious hairpiece.

R412 Star Trek has a long history of obvious wigs/hairpieces for actresses. Marina's was terrible really until the final season. Gates' hair style around season 4 or 5 (the longer, thicker wig with the hair clip) was so obviously a wig. Kate Mulgrew's bob from season 5 onward was so obviously a piece that's really noticeable on HD tvs.

Sirtis was pissed when McFadden came back in Season 3 because the doctor was given expensive human hair wigs, while Sirtis was still stuck with her crappy, enormous artificial hair wigs.

"I didn't care about him being killed off."

Lots of fans DID care about Data being killed off. He was one of the most popular characters on the show. There was no reason for him to be killed off. If Spiner didn't want to play him anymore, fine, but the demise of the character was totally unnecessary. When gibed about Data getting killed off he always says the same thing: that Data was "a FICTIONAL CHARACTER!" He was a fictional character, so why should anybody care if he got killed off? Spiner must be incredibly dense. Being part of the Star Trek franchise he should be well aware that fictional characters mean a lot to people. Spock was a fictional character, but when he came to his demise in "The Wrath of Khan" audiences were devastated.

I really liked the character of Data. I thought he was the most likable character on the show. The rest of the cast weren't particularly likable at all. I wouldn't have cared if any of them got blown up.

R414 Yeah Marina and Gates have confirmed that there was a bit of head butting between the two of them when Gates returned in season 3 (it's talked about a bit on the blu rays by Ronald D. Moore and Brannon Braga). Reading between the lines, I think the producers gave Gates a bit of preferential treatment when she came back given what had gone down at the end of the season 1, and this got under Marina's skin. But they obviously patched it up, cause they get a long well BUT it's clear Gates sometimes finds Marina a bit much to take.

What's the dirt on Michael Dorn? Never married, Marina Sirtis is his best friend.

"Star Trek has a long history of obvious wigs/hairpieces for actresses."

You don't say!

"Star Trek has a long history of obvious wigs/hairpieces for actresses."

You don't say!

Didn’t Michael Dorn date Terry Farrell when they were on DS9 together? No hetero, obviously, but I always found Terry utterly gorgeous and so warm and charming.

On the topic of wigs, Troi’s wigs are particularly noticeable in the HD remasters. You can practically see where they clip the hairpieces onto her head around the hairband. They also overdid the volume of ‘hair’—no one has that much hair! When I rewatched the series recently, I noticed the wig looked particularly bad in the third season. It looked dry, brittle and just really bad quality. The makeup they gave Marina that season looks terrible in the HD remaster, with far too much blusher and bright red lipstick. I think she looked far better in the fourth and fifth seasons though.

[quote] no one has that much hair!

Tell that to Tawny Kitaen.

I remember when Mikey Dorn was in that Valentine’s Day episode of Gimme A Break as Addie’s date. He was wearing so much pancake make-up that it made the Worf make-up look tame by comparison.

Dorn is at the 17 minute mark. He looks funeral home ready.

Yikes, r423–he looks like Michael Jackson.

[quote]The makeup they gave Marina that season looks terrible in the HD remaster, with far too much blusher and bright red lipstick.

In the first season, they shellac so much makeup on Gates and Marina, they both look like hookers.

Gates' cosmetic procedures have settled in the past few years. About ten years ago, she really went overboard. She had like two scenes in a low-budget gay movie called Make The Yuletide Gay (she had to have either been friends with the producer or was blackmailed), and she looked more like someone went to the surgeon and said "Make me look kinda like Gates McFadden."

The Vulcan eyebrows don't help.

R425 I actually think in Make the Yuletide Gay it's mostly botox and fillers.

This is her at the Star Trek Discovery premiere in 2017. She is heavily boxtoed here, cheek fillers, with veneers, and I'm guessing a partial face lift. She has toned it down. I saw pictures of her from the Star Trek Cruise back in March, and she looks more natural then.

[quote]This is her at the Star Trek Discovery premiere in 2017. She is heavily boxtoed here, cheek fillers, with veneers, and I'm guessing a partial face lift

If you told me that was Marina, it would take me a minute to realize it isn't.

That was also a period where Frakes had slimmed down again. He was quite distinguished-looking in the mid 10s, but not so much when he appeared on Picard.

Yikes R426! Those eyebrows are something else!

This is her at a convention last year and she looks more natural. I think for sure she's had a facelift, she's had the bags under her eyes removed, a neck lift, and fillers and botox. I also like her hair natural. Gates admitted on Twitter a few years ago that she is actually NOT a natural red head.

Wow r426! I seriously would not have known who that was.

"In the first season, they shellac so much makeup on Gates and Marina, they both look like hookers."

It was the 80s! Heavy makeup was in style!

In those days, the standard advice was "Do the lips AND the eyes! And plenty on the cheeks and eyebrows, and get the foundation down to the neckline."

Definitely a facelift. I noticed that Nana Visitor has likely had one too, for me the giveaway is the mouth becomes much bigger, as it’s been stretched.

It wasn't a facelift, it was just a little Eterna 27.

This is what she had done.

Amateurs...

This was Gates in 2005 looking older than she does today....she's had a ton of shit done!

R431 Yes, I think Nana got some work down two or three years ago, but it's more subtle.

So Star Trek: Picard is set to film seasons 2 and 3 (with 3 likely being the final season) back to back starting at the end of January in LA. Both Evan Evagora and Jonathan Frakes have confirmed this and stated the cast and crew will be required to self-isolate for 14 days prior to filming and test negative for covid. It also sounds all the TNG regulars are going to appear (Evan hinted at Worf appearing). LeVar has all but confirmed he will be in season 2 and Gates has hinted producers have reached out to her but her appearance might be later. I always suspected Dr. Crusher will appear in the final season.

Are they going to film that and Strange New Worlds simultaneously? I know the latter is probably going to film in Toronto, but did they push it back because COVID has worsened to much in Canada?

R437 Discovery season four is currently filming in Toronto. Apparently the cast had to fly to Canada 16 days prior to filming, and are living sequestered in the same condo building near the studio. They also are tested for COVID regularly. Strange New Worlds is currently in pre-production with the cast expected to fly out to Canada in January.

R417 Apparently, Michael Dorn is not gay. Several years back I was at a convention where Marina was speaking (and she slightly drunk which apparently is very common at the big Vegas convention). Always, the subject of Dorn came up and she was like "If Dorny was gay, do y'all think I'd be able to keep my big mouth closed about it. " Apparently he and Terry Farrell did bone for a while when he first joined the cast, and apparently he has a female partner he's been with for about 10 years now. She's is with him in this photos from last year's TNG christmas reunion.

Has anyone talked Patrick Stewart and Jennifer Hetrick (Vash) yet? Stewart and Hetrick began dating after the met on the TNG episode "Captain's Holiday," Stewart had just divorced his first wife. When they shot "Q-Pid" the following year they were engaged. The relationship didn't know end well (allegedly Stewart was caught hooking with TNG co-producer Wendy Neuss) and Hetrick was never asked back on TNG though she did make an appearance on DS9.

Didn't know about Stewart and Hetrick but certainly can't blame him. She was hot.

Ugh. Vash was supremely annoying.

I was an extra for six episodes of the first season, playing a science officer, civilian and a couple of aliens.

Costume designer Bill Theiss was quite handsy with the tape measure, but I let him as long as he didn’t fit me in a skant. Gates McFadden was a bitch. Jonathan Frakes wore a girdle. Will Weaton was annoying. Denise Crosby hated being there. Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner were always nice to the extras..

I lifted up his skant and went down on another officer (ex-Colt model) when we snuck off to the shuttle set.

R400 There wasn’t really any prestige associated with guest starring on a syndicated science fiction show. Whoopi was doing films at that point, so if anything, doing tv appearance wold be slumming it.

[quote]Costume designer Bill Theiss was quite handsy with the tape measure, but I let him as long as he didn’t fit me in a skant.

The man was a brilliant costume designer. I don't know how he pulled off some of the stuff he did on TOS.

"There wasn’t really any prestige associated with guest starring on a syndicated science fiction show. Whoopi was doing films at that point, so if anything, doing tv appearance wold be slumming it."

It was a STAR TREK tv series, part of a lucrative franchise; there was no "slumming" involved by being part of it. Whoopi Goldberg knew it would be a big deal, which is why she kissed Rodenberry's ass so fervently in order to get written into the show. She got a lot of mileage out of her role as the insufferable Guinon; she ever got film work because of the ST:TNG movies. She knew a good thing when she saw it, which is why she crawled after a part, any part, in the tv series. Poor Whoopi, begging to be in Star Trek. How pathetic.

Wow r446. That’s fantasy. But ok... I guess you need some fantasy. At the time, it was big news that Whoopi wanted to be a part of the show. It wasn’t big until a few years later.

R446, you really sound like you have a personal issue with Goldberg. Did she steal your boyfriend at some point?

The show wasn’t big, that is.

Don't you all know that Whoopi On Assistance was desperate for work in the late 80s? Sure, she made 7 or 8 movies between 1985-1990, and was nominated for an Academy Award, and was also getting attention for Comic Relief USA. But she was so broke she had to beg for a recurring role on a syndicated show. I heard she blew half of Paramount to get that life-changing gig.

"You really sound like you have a personal issue with Goldberg. Did she steal your boyfriend at some point?"

Has Whoopi Goldberg ever had a boyfriend? If so, I imagine he must have been paid very well.

" But she was so broke she had to beg for a recurring role on a syndicated show. "

Nobody said she was broke, you idiot. But she DID beg to be on ST:TNG. She knew Star Trek fans are fanatical. She knew she'd get a lot out of being on a Star Trek series. For some reason Whoopi Goldberg has always done ANYTHING; a sitcom, a kid's show, a game show. And a Star Trek series. It all seems to smack of kind of a desperation to keep being noticed. Pretty pathetic.

[quote]Has Whoopi Goldberg ever had a boyfriend?

Ted Danson...Frank Langella....

WTF is up with the Whoopi Hater? Is he one of the "The View" obsessives? Did she send her salmon back to the kitchen when he was waiting on her?

Sure, knock yourself out, but saying that doing movies and TV and theater and talk shows makes her seem desperate isn't a valid criticism. It makes her seem like a proper character actor, one who takes a good role wherever she finds one like a versatile working actor should, and someone who's smart enough to talk on national TV for a living. Find some other reason to bitch about her.

"Ted Danson...Frank Langella...."

Ted Danson appeared to have a few screws loose, showing up to perform in blackface at a roast of Goldberg. And Langella is said to be gay. His memoir makes him sound like the bitchiest of queens.

"Find some other reason to bitch about her."

Well, she HAS gone on her "talk show" to defend Michael Vick (animal torturer and killer), Michael Jackson (child molester) and Mel Gibson (racist and anti-semite). Didn't you know that? You don't seem to know much.

[quote]WTF is up with the Whoopi Hater? Is he one of the "The View" obsessives?

I just can't with grown men who watch The View. So, so sad.

Whoopi's ex-husband Lyle Trachtenberg was hot

Whoopi was starring in feature films at the time, it was unheard of for a movie star to want to do tv, much less a syndicated tv show.

The times were a LOT different back then. Movie stars didn't do tv, there was a big divide about that.

Personally I liked Whoopi on Trek. But then I'm not somebody who would toilet paper her house like this guy.

[quote] Patrick Stewart just adored Gates McFadden, and was furious when they fired her.

I think Patrick Stewart has a thing for redheads. Have you ever seen the Tonight Show, when he was on the same episode as Reba McEntire?

R389, since when is Neal McDonough a homophobe? I recall him being quite chill when talking about Lt. Hawk being revealed as gay in that novel after the fact, though nothing was ever said to him about it at the time of filming.

R443 are there any screenshots of you as an extra?

R452 has transporter psychosis. Recommend euthanasia.

If Stewart is a real class act, he'll invite Muldaur to reprise her Pulaski role on PICARD.

That would be pretty awesome actually. She is 82, and not sure she would come out of retirement for this. I'd love it though, even if just for one scene.

I remember when Muldaur was doing press for LA Law, she praised the writing on the show saying it was so much better than SNG, which she found less than inspirational (I don't remember her ever saying anything negative about any of the actors). Of course that might have been before she fell down the elevator shaft. She was kind of a shot in the arm the show needed at the point, I was surprised they killed her off.

[quote]If Stewart is a real class act, he'll invite Muldaur to reprise her Pulaski role on PICARD.

Unfortunately, Pulaski fell down a turbolift shaft during her next assignment.

[quote](I don't remember her ever saying anything negative about any of the actors)

She wouldn't have done that. She was on the SAG board of directors and was the first woman to be president of the ATAS.

R463, you should have asked for a screenshot of the Colt model in the skort that he blew...

I'm watching The Ensigns of Command now and they keep going on and on about The Shelly Hack.

R462 Neal McDonough is a fundamentalist Catholic (part of the same wing as Amy Coney Barrett). Officially, he was fired from “Scoundrels” in 2010 because he refused to film a kissing scene with his onscreen love interest played by Virginia Madsen because he considered it cheating on his real life wife. Unofficially based on things that cast and producers have said, McDonough had made numerous sexist, racist, and homophobic remarks and that added to his refusal to do any kind of romantic scenes (that were listed in the contract he signed) he was let go.

I've posted on other Star Trek threads, but I used to work for ComicCon Toronto and have had dealings with may Star Trek cast alums. Out of the TNG cast, the guys (minus Brent Spiner) were always the easiest to deal with.

Patrick Stewart was very gentlemanly.

Jonathan Frakes very sociable, will talk to anyone. Very down to Earth. My favourite member of the cast.

LeVar Burton was chill, kind of zen.

Michael Dorn, quiet on his own but animated when he was with other cast members. He's more of the type if he wants something, like water or coffee, he'll get it himself.

Brent Spiner was a pain on the ass. He was one of those actors who did conventions because he wanted/needed the money. Always rude to staff and volunteers.

Gates McFadden: Quiet and moody. Never rude but I think probably the most introverted of the cast. I don't think she enjoys doing conventions more because she finds them tiring rather than because she thinks they're beneath her like Spiner. She was nice to me though, made of point of remembering my name.

Marina Sirits: Sorry, but hated dealing with her. One of those "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM" types.

[quote]Neal McDonough is a fundamentalist Catholic (part of the same wing as Amy Coney Barrett). Officially, he was fired from “Scoundrels” in 2010 because he refused to film a kissing scene with his onscreen love interest played by Virginia Madsen because he considered it cheating on his real life wife. Unofficially based on things that cast and producers have said, McDonough had made numerous sexist, racist, and homophobic remarks and that added to his refusal to do any kind of romantic scenes (that were listed in the contract he signed) he was let go.

My first impression of Neal McDonough in First Contact was that he was really handsome.

His looks appear to have morphed quickly to match his insides...

It sounds like Neal McDonough chose the wrong line of work.

If Neal McDonough is such a homophobe why would he play a gay man on Justified.

Whenever I think of Neal McDonough, I think of his hilarious role in the little known early 2000s black comedy The Killing Club. He plays a lecherous, sleazy business exec to perfection, and delivers his rather colorful lines like an actor who'd have no problem with kissing a woman who's not his real life wife for a scene.

"That’s fantasy. But ok... I guess you need some fantasy. At the time, it was big news that Whoopi wanted to be a part of the show. It wasn’t big until a few years later."

Nope, not fantasy. Sorry if it upsets you but it's true that Whoopi Goldberg crawled after a part on the new ST tv show. And the show did take a while for fans to warm up to it but it had nothing to do with Goldberg. She was totally superfluous. I know you love her, but those are the facts.

What’s with the Whoopi hating? She was a big star back then and getting her in a recurring role was a real coup for the show. End of story. Her character was fun and intriguing.I’m fascinated to see what they’ll do with her in Picard.

R437 interesting to hear your take,that’s pretty much the feeling I get from the cast. I’m not surprised Marina is a nightmare to work with. I suspect she may have a personality disorder,just based on the interviews and convention footage I’ve seen.

Don't hate Whoopi. Also, hate Marina.

Sorry, that juxtaposition just cracked me up. So Datalounge.

I'm surprised Marina Sirtis has a "Do you know who I am?" attitude. Doesn't she know that NO ONE knows who she is except Star Trek fans? By the way, she is one of the worst actresses on the planet. I thought it was so hilarious that she was playing an empath, a being that feels the emotions of others. She was totally wooden; it was like she had NO feelings, much less to ability to sense them in other forms of life.

I thought she was good in the season 2 episode where Troi gave birth to some alien thingie.

R481 is begging to be EJECTED INTO SPACE

Oh I don’t hate Whoopi or Marina. Just noting that she clearly has some personality issues, as I’ve seen in more than a few clips. It’s all the more shocking because she’s actually the total opposite of Troi. In fact, the episode where Troi is possessed by an evil entity is probably Marina playing herself ;)

I do remember being surprised at the way Whoopi wanted to be on SNG, but I think she was realistic about career prospects in show biz for middle-aged, less-than-beautiful Black woman. She scrambled around to keep working instead of waiting for the next good script and she's now an old less-than-beautiful Black woman who continues to work. I respect her for that, even though I never could stand the character of Guinan.

Wasn't straight porn star Randy Spears also on a few episodes of TNG as a background character?

Anyone know the episodes?

Whoopi's interest in Star Trek is pretty understandable. Uhura was an icon to a generation of little Black girls

She recalls approaching Trek creator Gene Roddenberry when TNG was just getting started and telling him, "I really want to be on this show." So she met with Roddenberry and executive producer Rick Berman, and they asked her why she wanted to be a part of Star Trek so badly.

"I said, 'Do you not know that, prior to your show, there were no black people in any sci-fi, anywhere?" Goldberg remembers. Roddenberry couldn't believe that, but he called Goldberg up a few days later and told her, "You know what? I checked, and you're right."

Goldberg is, of course, referring to Lt. Uhura, the communications officer played by Nichelle Nichols on the original Star Trek TV series from 1966 to 1969. As a respected member of the Enterprise crew, Uhura was a trailblazing role for African-Americans on TV; Nichols later revealed that Martin Luther King Jr. himself (!) told her how important her Trek role was in promoting racial equality.

And the role certainly inspired a young Whoopi Goldberg. "When I was a little girl, it was like, 'Oh, we are in the future.' Uhura did that for me. So I want to be on your show," she told Roddenberry and Berman.

[quote]Wasn't straight porn star Randy Spears also on a few episodes of TNG as a background character?

R481 I like Marina but yes I've heard from conventions staff (particularly at Las Vegas Trek) that she can be difficult because she views herself as "the queen of Star Trek conventions" because she pretty much makes her living on the convention circuit these days.

I don't actually think Marina is a terrible actress, It came down to the writing. Her work on Star Trek Picard was her best work ever in Star Trek, but on TNG she had very limited material and no clear character arc. Gates McFadden had the same issue. Her acting is kind of flat but in the rare episodes she had something to do so was great (I mean as terrible as Sub Rosa is, she acted the hell out of that).

[quote] she views herself as "the queen of Star Trek conventions"

Might it also be because she played the daughter of Majel Barrett, the original Queen of Star Trek, and therefore sees herself as the successor.

[quote]She was totally wooden; it was like she had NO feelings, much less to ability to sense them in other forms of life.

"I'm sensing cuntiness."

quote[ (I mean as terrible as Sub Rosa is, she acted the hell out of that).]

I know it is not a good episode, but this one is kind of a guilty pleasure of mine - it makes no sense, but I enjoy it.

Who among us HASN'T been seduced by a candle???

Marina gave me one of my favorite childhood supervillains

Sub Rosa was a blatant ripoff of an Anne Rice story (can't remember which one) and I think Rice threatened to sue.

[quote] are there any screenshots of you as an extra?

I have a Star Trek wiki page with a few stills, and in an episode teaser which is on YouTube.

It was her Mayfair Witches story.

In between its initial airing, they added a credit to “Sub Rosa” that said “Based upon Material by Jeanna F Gallo,” which seems like they were crediting Rice without crediting her. I mean, Jeanna F Gallo is supposedly a freelance writer who Jeri Taylor knew, but she only has two credits, both for ST.

[quote] Doesn't she know that NO ONE knows who she is except Star Trek fans?

And fans of "Faye Dunaway with a whip" movies

Marina Sirtis always seems just kind of off kilter. Maybe it's just her personality or maybe it's because she's on something, I don't know. But I remember her and Brent Spiner on some little talk show getting interviewed and during the interview she grabbed him and kissed him bang smash on the mouth. What the fuck was up with that? I guess she thought it was amusing but he looked like he wanted to drop through the floor. But then he always looks uncomfortable when being kissed by a woman. Anyway, it just seemed very strange.

R499 Aren't most actors a little off kilter? I think it's her personality. She has a huge personality, also seems to have a bit of a temper, and likes to be the center of attention. If you've ever seen her with the rest of the TNG cast (whether on YouTube or at conventions) she tends to dominate the conversation. She's admitted that the men on TNG rarely disagree with her anymore cause they don't want to deal with her temper, Gates apparently is the only one who challenges her on stuff and allegedly if Gates tell her "no" it's usually coming from the guys. You can tell Gates gets annoyed by Marina sometimes and I live for that, but they do get on well. As for Brent, as shocking as it is, I'm pretty sure he's straight. He's been married for years and has a son.

Jeebus, Frakes was gorgeous in season 1. And the way that the ensign checks him out at the 30 second mark...I concur!!

Well, if there was any doubt, Robert Beltran just outed himself as a total MAGAT.

Granted, I was never the best student in Sunday School but aren't they constantly saying "God is everywhere and can always hear you?"

If you HAVE TO be in church, what is the point of saying grace or doing prayers before bed?

I've been lurking in every DL Star Trek thread for probably a decade but never posted in them before. I was a huge fan of TNG when I was a kid (I was the middle school dork who could explain how the warp drive worked in perfect technobabble.) This behind-the-scenes stuff is so fun to read, especially as the decades pass and more stories emerge!

R504, welcome. You have found your people.

I love stories about the Voyager cast and how they all hated each other.

R506 The Voyager cast did not hate each other. They got along extremely well for the first three season. Then when producers fired Jennifer Lien to bring in Jeri Ryan, Kate Mulgrew flipped her lid and was a bitch to Jeri. Kate still got along with everyone else, except with Robert Beltran who is just a dick and hated being on the show and was trying to get fired.

Well, Lien didn't make it difficult to fire her since her drug problems had escalated by that point, as well.

Garrett Wang was also on the chopping block - that season finale had him almost fatally infected by species 8472 - the only thing that saved him was getting voted one of People's 50 Most Beautiful that year.

Lien - in a DL classic picture.

"Robert Beltran who is just a dick and hated being on the show and was trying to get fired."

They should have let him go, his character never developing into anything interesting. He was supposed to bring a spiritual dimension to the Trek universe, but spirituality doesn't really belong in the Trek universe and the writers had no clue how to fit it into the stores! They should have given him up as ten kinds of bad job, and seen if maybe paying a bit more attention to Tuvok might have paid off.

And gawd, he does sound like 2,000 kinds of dick today, and not the good kind of dick!

R508 Jennifer Lien has mental health issues that worsened after she was fired, but they were not what sparked her firing. Yup, Garrett Wang was set to be fired at the end of the third season (this was even before the idea of 7 of 9 has begun to surface). Wang was causing issues on the set. He would show up late, not know his lines, and still be drunk (or very hungover). Wang was suspended from two episodes in the the first season (Fair Trade and Blood Fever). The original plan was the Harry would die/evolve as a result of his encounter with Species 8472. As you said, he was voted one of the most beautiful actors on TV by People Magazine and UPN decided they couldn't lose that free publicity. Once it was clear they were going to add a new character in season 4, they had to fire one of the regulars. Lien was chopped mostly because UPN felt she would no longer fit in the cast (because you can't have two blonde women on the same show).

[quote] As you said, he was voted one of the most beautiful actors on TV by People Magazine .

Wang must have had a hell of an agent to get him on that list. He was not bad looking (still not), but he certainly wasn't the man women got moist about.

R512 I think there are 100 people on those lists (50 men/50 women). I was 15 when Voyager came out and I remember thinking Garrett Wang was hot at the time. Also, lets be honest, there was very little Asian representation on television during the 90s.

Kate Mulgrew's issue wasn't just about the fact producers felt they needed to up the T&A factor to get better ratings, it was also because from that point forward, Jeri Ryan became the spokesperson for the show. UPN would send Jeri out to do publicity and it pissed Kate off. At some point, the deal became that for every appearance Jeri made, Kate would have to make one on another show.

The addition of 7 of 9 gave the show a needed boost but the ratings continued to fall after season 4. Also, the addition of Seven changed the dynamic so that the show really became about Janeway, Seven and the Doctor leaving the rest of the cast to pick up the crumbs.

Janeway, Seven and the Doctor were the only good/interesting characters. As has been said, the VOY cast wasn't all that great with the exception of those three.

Voyager was a dumpster fire for me. It was the first time I ever gave up on a Star Trek show, and I did give it until the start of the sixth season too. It was basically TNG lite (when TNG was quite lite in itself generally). I found Mulgrew a bit annoying in her acting style and mannerisms. Beltran was a huge block of wood surely posing a fire hazard on set, and the less said about Harry Kim and Neelix the better. I did like Seven and the Doctor especially, but the series as a whole was so under cooked it just gave me indigestion. I find it so sad to see Jennifer Lien now. She seemed so sweet and fragile as Kes (and she had a lovely voice). In general I hate seeing people decline so visibility. I hope she finds some peace.

I am surprised that Greg Berlanti used Neal McDonough so much on his CW superhero shows when he's such a big homophobe. I mean, conservative dickhead Marc Cherry hiring him for Desperate Housewives? Sure I can see that, but not openly gay Greg Berlanti supporting his own and hiring openly gay or bi actors like John Barrowman, Victor Garber, and Andy Mientus.

[quote]I am surprised that Greg Berlanti used Neal McDonough so much on his CW superhero shows when he's such a big homophobe.

Are you kidding? Berlanti is one of the most homophobic gay men ever to exist.

No gay male characters on his shows but plenty of bull daggers, chicks with dicks, etc...

[quote] She seemed so sweet and fragile as Kes (and she had a lovely voice).

Jennifer Lien was actually pretty good. The character Kes didn't interest me at all. Kes was all soul and emotion and as such too one-dimensional for me to appreciate. As so many characters on VOY, Kes was not written to full potential. So when I happen to watch an earlier VOY episode with Kes in the center, Lien is actually the saving grace. If you just focus on her acting, not so much on a silly plot, you have enough to look at. She is really good.

Lien was pretty terrific in the Warlord episode where she gets possessed by the dead alien guy.

Her character was a complete 180 from Kes and she sold it well.

She has (had?) such a great voice. Should have made a mint in commercials and voice acting.

For whatever reason she and her husband chose to move to rural Tennessee where mental health services are scant and opioid and meth use are rampant. I hope she's able to find some help.

For whatever reason she and her husband chose to move to rural Tennessee where mental health services are scant and opioid and meth use are rampant. I hope she's able to find some help.

I'm actually surprised that there weren't more cast changes on "Voyager", where so many characters never developed into anything interesting and the ratings always needed a boost. Why not let the actors who wanted to go go, and bring in someone new?

It certainly would have been easy to write cast changes into the script, they were in a dangerous environment and people would die, and someone from the lower decks could have been promoted to main cast or they could have picked up another alien or two.

If you Star Trek geeks want to talk about "Voyager", start a freaking separate thread. This one os about from ST:TNG.

If there was any dirt about from ST:TNG, we would, r524. Unfortunately the cast is super nice and there is no dirt. Now how about that Neelix? Don't you just hate his over-acted jolly attitude?

I hated Neelix, and the fact that they had to have a "cute alien" on the show. It seemed rather pointless.

I liked a lot of Voyager, but like many fans I wish it had been grittier. If it were made today it probably would be.

I liked Janeway because she was a stone cold killer. Picard was no slouch in that area himself. I like a captain who isn't afraid to get their hands dirty.

"Unfortunately the cast is super nice and there is no dirt. "

I wouldn't say the cast of SN:TNG is "super nice." They apparently got along well with each other but very few of them strike me as "nice" people, especially Gates McFadden and Brent Spiner. Especially Spiner; I've seen YouTube videos where he positively tormented a young interviewer and his constantly "on" behavior is beyond annoying.

As long as some of us are talking about "Voyager," I want to point to my absolute favorite episode: "Bride of Chaotica!". (I wanted to post a pic from the episode, but the website just wouldn't accept it.)

This particular episode, with story by Bryan Fuller, first aired on January 27, 1999. It concerned a race of beings that mistook a scenario on the Holodeck for the real thing, one that Tom Paris had created as a spoof of the old 1930's "Flash Gordon" serials. He played a character named Captain Proton. Captain Janeway reluctantly joined in the fun as Queen Arachnia.

I read recently that the producers were under pressure to come up with a storyline that could be filmed off the bridge because it had been damaged by a fire months earlier. That's something I had never heard before.

The entire episode was shot in black and white, better to replicate the origins of the spoof. And the entire cast seemed to be having a ball. I only wish I could hear from some of them about the actual production. I imagine it was discussed at at least one sci-fi convention in the past.

Anyone have some tales from the set?

R530 I loved that episode as well. Also, unlike some of the above posters I found Tom Paris to be an attractive character and actor.

R525 As has been stated several times on this thread, there really isn't much dirt about TNG so we've been talking about all the shows. TNG is one series in a whole franchise. If you don't like reading about the other shows, then no one is telling you to read the posts!

Re: Jennifer Lien, she actually was a fantastic actress. In fact, I think she was one of the strongest out of the secondary cast of characters. The problem was, the writers never really figured out what the character. Interestingly, however, when Kes was given the opportunity to shine, the episodes usually turned out well eg Cold Fire, Warlord, Before and After. The episode "Year of Hell" was supposed to be the original third season finale but changed when UPN/Paramount wanted to maximize on the success of First Contact and bring the Borg onto Voyager. Kes had a large part in Year of Hell which had been set up in "Before and After" but much of her material was given to Seven. I actually think it would have been cool to see Kes still on the show when they brought on Seven.

Jennifer really should have gone into voice over work.

R533 She actually did do a lot of voice work: She was a regular on the Men in Black Animated Series, she was in Lion Kin 2 and did guest work on Duckman, Jonny Quest and Superman.

On the subject of voiceover work, I always wished Avery Brooks had gone down that road, I loved his voice, so deep and silky smooth. But I guess he’s too busy in jazzland.

Avery Brooks doesn't seem to be much involved with anything related to Star Trek anymore. Does he ever do conventions? His role is somewhat interesting. Usually people say that the main actor/captain sets the tone for the show and behind the scenes. Brooks took his role very seriously, but otherwise didn't socialize much with the cast. (Looks like same is true for Colm Meany). Any more insight on Brooks and his view on Star Trek?

He's made it pretty clear over the years. It was a job that he took seriously, and is proud of, but it was only a job. He's said what he has to say about it.

If we're being honest, Avery Brooks is kind of "out there." I remember watching Shatner's captains documentary and having no idea what the hell he was saying half the time. Yes, he treated DS9 like a job and was only close with Cirroc Lofton who played his son. Nothing wrong with that by any means. There were tension between Brooks and some members of the cast. In the past, Alexander Siddig has talked about how his relationship with Brooks became strained around the 2nd or 3rd season. It was also Brooks who set the very serious on set tone that DS9 was known for. Michael Dorn has joked than we he joined the show he told the cast that they days Avery wasn't there, they needed to loosen the fuck up.

For those of you who want more dirt on the TNG era Treks, there is a book called The Fifty-Year Mission: The Next 25 Years: From The Next Generation to J.J. Abrams that goes into a lot of stuff that isn't as widely known. The TNG stuff is kind of meh but mostly because they all got along and the drama behind the scenes kind of stopped after the second season. The real 'meat' is in the DS9/VOY sections although sadly they are the shortest.

I just finished watching The Voyager episode where Michael McKeon plays the Clown.

The writers must have tired of writing for Neelix in Season 2.

Neelix at the round table suggests to make the Clown laugh only to get nasty looks from Janeway, Kes & the rest.

Flashforward to when they send in the Doctor & he takes the scalpel out of the Clown' s hand telling him he is holding it wrong (a joke) at the expense of the trauma Harry Kim was just being put thru.

Doc follows up with one liners such as "I don't get out much" & "I have a very trustworthy face".

Neelix's approach was rejected by all but the Doctor who went with it anyway.

I wonder if the rest of the crew apologized to him afterwards.

I hated that episode back then. In hindsight I am thinking it was quite ambitious, certainly visually. Should I revisit it?

R541 Yes. Michael is great in his role.

I always wondered why they didn't revisit the character (either by teaming him up with a Q or by way of the holodeck-can you imagine him teamed with a holo-Seska?).

It's also only 1 of a handful of episodes where Kes talks to Torres (I think she says 1 line to her in this whole episode LOL).

Kes (as usual) says nothing to Chakotay & talks in a room with Janeway/Kim but (as usual) doesn't say anything directly to Harry Kim.

I wouldn't talk to Kim either.

Kes sounds smarter than I ever gave her credit for by avoiding talking to those bobbleheads.

While I don't think it really would have made a huge difference to the show overall, but I honestly think keeping Garrett Wang over Jennifer Lien was actually a bad call. Lien was a MUCH better performer and though Kes didn't have much to do, the Kes-centric episodes were usually always solid episodes and I feel like in the three seasons she was on the show, Kes' character was actually better defined than Kim (particularly during the third season). Also, UPN were trying to increase the "all important" male 18 to 35 demographic so keeping Kes actually would have played into that better.

So here's the lowdown of what happened between season 3 and 4:

There were problems with Garrett Wang during season three. He would often come to the set late, drunk/high, not knowing his lines, and acted like a bit of a "diva." He also did not get on with Rick Berman. He was suspended from the show without pay for two episodes, "Fair Trade" and "Blood Fever," due to his behavior. Already feeling like they had too many characters on the show, producers allegedly decided to write Kim off the show.

Initially, the third season finale was supposed to be the start of "The Year of Hell," and the plan was Kim would be killed off during these events. However, with the success of First Contact a few months earlier, UPN (wanting to bring the ratings up) suggested bringing the Borg back on the show. Additionally, they wanted the writers to 'shake things up' for season 4 to boost declining ratings. At this time, writer Brannon Braga came up with the idea of adding a quote: "Borg babe" to the show. So "Scorpion Part 1" was written. Harry's injuries in the episode were added to write Wang out of the series in Part 2 with having Kim evolve due to his contact with Species 8472 (like they ultimately did with Kes).

While filming Scorpion Part 1, the cast became aware that one of them was going to be released from their contract to make room for a new character. Everyone knew it was going to be Wang initially. Even Wang has admitted he knew he was in danger of being fired at the end of season 3. But Wang was then chosen as one of People Magazine's Most Beautiful People, and UPN nixed the producers' decision to fire him because they felt it would be a wrong business move to get rid of the free publicity. So, another cast member had to be canned. Allegedly, Ethan Phillips was confident it was going to be him. His character had very little to do, and he knew that his character was also not the most popular. He was originally supposed to be the comic relief, but the Doctor ultimately ended up being the funny character. Phillips has said he started looking for new work during the hiatus.

It's believed the decision to fire Lien was down to Jeri Taylor, who was showrunner at that point. There is gossip that Taylor had a personal issue with Lien (apparently Lien briefly dated her son Alexander Enberg aka Vorik, and it ended badly or something), but that's never been proven. Other writers like Kenneth Biller have stated Kes was not the character they would have written off the show, and Rick Berman has noted that the decision to fired Lien had more to the network making the call (you shouldn't have two blonde women on the show). Interestingly, it was Berman who wrote "Fury," Kes' horrific swan song to Voyager.

There are conflicting accounts of who Lien was notified (some cast say she didn't find out until they got the script for "The Gift"), but it seems she was told during the summer so she could look for other jobs. Also, Kes was supposed to be in the first five episodes of season four, with the 5th episode being the one where she leaves, but Lien had already booked another job and had to go, so her story was tacked on to the second episode, which was originally supposed to be just about Seven. If you actually watch "Scorpion Part 2" and "The Gift" it kind of looks like Lien has been crying and she's not "fully invested" in her scenes any more.

Lien also had a drug problem, didn't she?

R546 & R547 There is a new book out called "Star Trek Voyager A Celebration" apparently it has a section on it about the Kes/Seven change. I haven't read it but I listen to a podcast with the author the other day. He said in the podcast that it's the first time many of the cast and crew went on record about what actually happened. Lien was dealing with addiction issues during her time on Voyager to the extent that she was no longer reliable and some of her scenes had to be cut. Ultimetly with them having to cut the cast to make room for Jeri Ryan, producers decided it might be for the best to let Lien go. Apparently one of the producers (didn't mention who it was in the podcast, but I get the sense it might have been Berman) regrets this, that they should have sought more actively to try and get her help.

Being immune to Jeri Ryan's obvious charms, I still think that Seven was a very good character and she was very good in the role - certainly vastly superior to Kes as a character.

As with all Trek shows, the triumvirate of first among equals in the ensemble became Doctor/Janeway/Seven playing key parts in most episodes.

Jeri Ryan was great on the show.

[quote] Allegedly, Ethan Phillips was confident it was going to be him. His character had very little to do, and he knew that his character was also not the most popular.

I doubt he was ever seriously considered. A Star Trek series should have at least one identifiable wacky looking alien as a regular character, such as Worf or Quark. Vulcans are too human like. Even Seven was a human borg.

I do wish Ethan Phillips had found another job, his character never developed into anything interesting and what good lines there were went to the Doctor. But so many characters on that show never developed into anything interesting, Tuvok, Chakotay, and Kim were just sort of dragged along and were never given much of anything. Honestly, the show might have benefitted from a Red Wedding, a massacre of major characters, with new ones brought on to see if they could develop into something the fans liked better.

And speaking of Star Trek cliches, the show always has some person along who's struggling to understand what it is to be human and how to deal with humans - which IMHO tells you something about the show's fans! But Voyager actually had two such characters, Seven and the Doctor, and somehow... having two characters trying to become more human didn't become ridiculous. Perhaps it was because Seven's quest to rediscover her humanity was treated as drama, while the Doctor's journey to real sentience was treated more as comedy.

Only two such characters? Weren't they running some kind of Borg daycare, or was that just a tax scheme?

Ryan, Mulgrew and Picardo were the only good actors on that show. The rest could've been killed off and I never would've missed them.

R554 Tim Russ was actually a fantastic actor on the rare occasion he was given anything to do: "Meld" comes to mind as his best moment on the show. Jennifer Lien was also really strong when she got something to do: see "Warlord." Roxanne Dawson was good in her role. Wang, Beltran, McNeill were all terrible actors. I've seen Ethan Phillips on stage and he's actually a good actor, but Neelix was just a dreadful character with nothing to do.

Absolute worst episode was not the one where Paris and Janeway turn into lizards but rather FLOTTER T. WATER!

R545 Kes actually had more to do than the Doctor.

He was stuck in SIck Bay or the Holodeck but she could go anywhere & this helped her as "field medic".

Kes was sent in to monitor/revive "The 37s" (& was seen more in that episode than the Doc). She had to monitor/revive :The Thaw" folks & th3e Doc was handy only because of his hologram status.

Kes was seen more in the Chakotay episodes with "Kazon Nog" & "Tattoo" than the Doc due to her field medic role. She also showed her devious side by adding a couple hours to his sick routine idea to teach him a lesson. I had also forgot she had used her powers in "Cold Fire" to kill all of the plants in the Cargo bay & injured Tuvok. with them. That one ended with her admitting to having "dark impulses". She would later kill the Transporter Chief in "Warlord" even though she was possessed at the time. She had several moments of dark/disturbing behavior which was witnessed by others. Her senior citizen behavior in :"Fury" seemed to me as a natural course from these moments (combined with her dementia from her alternate timeline in "Before & After" coming to pass). I still can't believe all of the fans outrage over her senile actions in "Fury".

Looking back, it seemed strange that Kes wasn't in the final Quinn scene in "Death WIsh" among others.

I wonder if this was one of the episodes that she was cut out of. Does anyone mention which shows she caused problems with?

The Sick Bay cast members weren't in the episodes that featured "Joel Grey is Janeway's daddy" or the "Harry Kim & Libby San Fran," episodes (Neelix wasn't in the latter one either).

I wonder if her issues caused the entire Sick Bay to be cut out of them in their entirety. Picardo gave an interview where he kinda trashed Lien as unable to pull of her bombshell makeover at the end of season 3 & gushed over Ryan's appeal & his character's romantic scenes with her. Perhaps Picardo had grown tired of her problems as his character was the 1 most tied to hers in the end of season 3.

[quote] Picardo gave an interview where he kinda trashed Lien as unable to pull of her bombshell makeover at the end of season 3

He wasn't wrong. The makeover did NOTHING for her and actually made her less attractive.

R557 I liked it when they gave the doctor the personal Holoemitter that allowed him to escape sickbay and the Holodeck.

I liked that limitation during the first couple of seasons but I wish they gave him something other than a 29th century device.

How it remained in the 24th century after the timeship explosion/reset I'll never know.

Captain Braxton should have confiscated it with any other time displaced tech due to the all important "temporal prime directive" that the show kept mentioning in it's 7 year history.

Lien looked more glamorous with her long curly hair that covered her alien ears. It's funny that Lien was allegedly dumped for being a "competing blonde" to Ryan but 4 of the 6 guys in the 4 cast all had black hair on the show. I guess there is no such thing as competing hair issues for male Star Fleet characters.

I thought the hair made her look ridiculous.

Jeri Ryan gave an excellent performance in the episode where the entire crew had to go into stasis while traveling through a radioactive nebula or something, leaving only Seven and the Doctor as the crew since neither would be effected. Being totally separated and alone, Seven starts having hallucinations which get worse as the Doctor starts to malfunction and has to be shut down. For most of the episode, it's only Ryan, Robert Picardo and another actor playing an alien - who may or may not be a figment of Seven's imagination.

R558 Picardo didn't trash Jennifer Lien, he was actually attacking the producer's decision to try and make Kes a 'sex bomb' by putting Lien in those tight outfits towards the end of the third season. He said it didn't fit the character.

R561 Kes' long curly hair was actually Lien's real hair. Allegedly, Lien had developed an allergy to the glue used to apply her ears. Using her long hair, she only had to wear the ears when they were doing close ups. Personally I think the long hair looked better. Also the red outfit Kes wears in her final episode "The Gift" was reworked and used as Kira Nery's uniform in season 7 of DS9.

The new book out - Star Trek Voyager A Celebration - is fantastic and highly recommended for die hard fans of the show. I wish it had been more 'gossipy' but the author was more concerned about what went into making the show than the on set dramas and such. He only briefly mentions the tensions between Mulgrew and Ryan.

The most interesting stuff, is laying out what really happened with Jennifer Lien. Basically, Lien was a bit of an enigma according the cast. She was very shy, and rarely discussed her personal life. Robert Duncan McNiel suggests that she had a bad childhood and there was still stuff going on at home. By the third season, it was becoming clear Lien was having mental health problems, and the cast and producers suspected she was have issues with drug addiction. Jeri Taylor claims they called her into the office several times to try and work with her and get her help, but she refused. She began to become unreliable and her screen time was cut back. Interestingly when episodes were written around her (Warlord and Before and After) her troubles seem to abate.

When the decision was made to add Seven of Nine (and they couldn't fire Garrett Wang) they decided given Lien's personal problems, it might be better to limit her involvement with the show. So they presented her with two options: reduce her to a recurring character or be released from her contract. She chose to leave the show. Originally, Lien had agreed to appear in the first five episodes of Season 4, but she got a part in a movie and had to be written out by episode 2.

Added that, Sevens journey from full Borg drone to 'bombshell' was supposed to take the first five episodes in an arc based story that would have mirror's Kes'. Basically the theme of Seven becoming less and Kes becoming more was supposed to span those five episodes.

"It's funny that Lien was allegedly dumped for being a "competing blonde" to Ryan but 4 of the 6 guys in the 4 cast all had black hair on the show. I guess there is no such thing as competing hair issues for male Star Fleet characters."

Of course, all those men were of different races, weights, ages, and degrees of looks, and had different amounts of hair on their head. The two "competing blondes" were, of course, the sort of beautiful young white women who fill the majority of TV roles for women.

Of course they wouldn't have looked very similar onscreen because Ryan is about twice Lien's size, but of course, Lien wasn't let go because of the competing blonde issue, see above.

What does any of this have to do with TNG?

Nothing. We already established that TNG didn't have enough dirt for a long thread. So instead we decided to ruin your life by derailing this thread and move on to other Star Trek dirt.

Voyager sounds like it was way more exciting behind the camera than the other side of it. I found it such a bland and vanilla show I checked out around the fifth season. It just never believed in its own premise and wanted so badly to be TNG mark two. I tried Enterprise when it began but found that even worse. I’m glad they gave the franchise a good long rest, it really needed it and so did I.

R568 Out of the Berman era Treks, Voyager has the most behind the scenes drama.

The TNG cast loved (and still loves) each other and there's nothing really to tell.

The DS9 cast were more serious and treated their time of the show more like "a job": come in, do good work, go home. Some of them became close off set (obviously Nana Visitor and Alexander Sidding had a kid and were married for a period of time). I know Rene and Nana were really good friends in life. Avery Brook was allegedly very serious, kind of out there, and wasn't close to anyone except Cirroc Lofton (Jake). Colm Meany isn't particularly close to anyone on the show. Also there have been rumors that for a period of Time Terry Farrell and Armin Shimmerman were not on speaking terms.

Voyager cast yeah the Mulgrew/Ryan tension is the stuff of legends.

Enterprise the cast got along very well although there are rumours Linda Park was difficult to work with.

Marina Sirtis announced that she's moving back to the UK.

R570 I remember Marina once implying that she basically was still in America because of her husband. Now that he's gone and the fact that as an older actress she has more opportunities in the UK (not to mention family and friends) this is probably a good move for her. And likely once conventions start back up again, she'll still see her TNG family.

In case any of you are interested, Gates McFadden has just launched a new podcast where she interview almost of the TNG cast as well as other Trek actors. Two episodes have been released and they are quite good. It's low on gossip and more about the actor's lives rather than Star Trek.

[quote]"IT'S A FAKE!!"

That wasn't Sisko's line, it was the Romulan Senator's.

Yep, I just watched that on H&I R573

Marina was on Gates McFadden's podcast this week and God do I love her. It was recorded right before Marina moved back to England and she talked movingly about losing her husband (who died of a heart attack in his sleep apparently) and how she spent Christmas with Gates because Gates' son couldn't make it home because of COVID.

Also there was also a two part interview with Nana Visitor two weeks ago that was very powerful. During the second season of DS9 after having left the set late one night, she was kidnapped at gun point, raped, brought back to her house raped again and nearly shot. Just listening her talk about what happened is unreal and they did a second episode because Gates wasn't really able to process it. Gates is really a natural host.

I’m surprised that Nana talked about her rape. It was kind of whispered about in fan circles for a long time, but I don’t think she’d ever officially acknowledged it.

It was one of those things that I knew that I wish I didn’t.

R576 Nana first started talking about it publicly a few years ago in an interview she gave, though she did not get into specifics. It's a horrifying story but Nana has really worked through it and has a ton of great advice for dealing with trauma.

Was it the second season? Even before she spoke about the specifics, she talked about one episode that she said she had never been able to watch, which is from the third season. I figured that was the episode she was filming when it happened.

Stuff like this was why Jeri Ryan didn’t do conventions for a long time.

Ooof. I listened to the first podcast with Nana.

When Gates started getting choked up, so did I.

R578 I think she said this happened in 94 or 95? So yeah it would could have been third season.

Lower Decks S2 starts in August.

And the animation for Prodigy looks amazing.

R582 have to admit I had a MAJOR fanboy moment when I heard Janeway (Kate Mulgrew) at the end of that teaser

They did a panel on Zoom for ComicCon. Kate is either overjoyed doing this or outstanding at faking it.