White Fragility

It’s a fantastic book.

As an Evil Whitey, I admit I'm fragile.

So fragile I'm afraid I might break....

my foot off in Robin DiAngelo's ass.

It’s dumb.

Just looking at her is tedious.

white people are so angry if they think any other group might get something. They have to be involved in every fucking thing, like 2 year olds

The replies only prove this book accurate

Get a load of the racist at r5.

FF R6 is BORIS

This is the kind of thing that reaches the point of bigotry. If there any other book, about any other race or ethnic group, starting with such a sweeping and inaccurate generalisation, it would not be published.

R9 it isn’t inaccurate. Crack a history book.

Crack your skull, r10.

R6 is .

Toxic bullshit.

Anyone who reads this book as a serious tome is retarded.

I swear to fuck, these race-baiters are working for the Trump campaign. Or they might as well be. "Hey whitey! You suck!" (Subtext: the Left hates you!) Then this shit gets shilled on NPR, the Times, etc etc etc.

That’s not new. I’ve been trying to get people I know to read it for last year and a half.

I actually had a good conversation with my father about The Mind Of the South, and Cash’s concept of “the savage ideal.” We were both like, “this is the phrase for our times!”

This book was written by a white woman.

r16 because a black writer cannot talk about white fragility, they aren't white any more than a white writer could write about the black experience.

The book is all anecdotes and minimal data. Her basic premise is that since she is a racist ( and she really does sound massively racist) all other white people are racist. Meanwhile some of the thoughts she says she had about black people are not thoughts that I think all people have.

But nevermind that the book is flimsy as a feather and promotes white supremacy ( see the link), she charges $6000 and hour to tell people they're racist and she is now a millionaire many times over. I wonder if she gives that money to black people in reparations for her racist thoughts or if she lives in luxury? I think we can guess which.

[Quote] all other white people are racist.

Um, all other white people are racist to some degree

I just commented on her on the Ta Nishi Coates thread. You know she’s laughing all the way to the bank, she’s made white guilt into a major industry. I know a lot of people that must attend these mandatory workshops. They are all the rage in corporate USA. I think they will just serve to make people more self conscious and unwilling to talk to anyone else as they bumble and try to process what they should say and how.

That's a great article. It really is like a cult.

While it might be amusing to watch white people flagellate themselves for their privilege, it doesn’t actually achieve anything other than make her very rich. Anyone who has been to an evangelical church has seen this routine played over and over. Honestly, I think her unconscious goal is to make racism all about white women.

The amazing thing is, demographics are trending so strongly in favor of liberalism. It was just a matter of time before the Republican Party was about as relevant as the Whigs or the Know Nothings.

So then we said to ourselves, “what retarded shit can we pull to completely sabotage this? WAIT, I’VE GOT IT!!!”

[quote]Honestly, I think her unconscious goal is to make racism all about white women.

White women tend to make EVERYTHING all about them.

Yeah, she's laughing all the way to the bank. She found a great grift to get that $$$$.

I encourage everyone to look up the index of this book. The most laughable thing about it is how entirely unsupported her thesis is - the index is almost completely devoid of hard references. She literally just pulled the whole thing out of her ass.

The comparison to fundie preachers is very apt. She's really no different than a con artist like Joel Osteen.

I feel sorry for the people who have to attend these bullshit workshops because of their jobs, and can't opt out.

Has anybody been on one of these workshops? I'd be interested to hear what they're like. I'll bet the net result of them is intensified eggshell-walking and all the white people just avoiding engaging with POC in case they are misinterpreted or they say or do something wrong.

A far cry from what the ostensible goal of the workshop is supposed to be, which I presume is easier communication and better integration.

I call these wokeshops.

Their actual goal is to put Whitey on notice, both politically and legally, that he is being watched, and it won't take much to get him disciplined and/or shitcanned.

Nobody expects that these workshops will result in anything but bad and fearful feelings. That is indeed the goal, as with so much of corporate America. Keep the peons walking on eggshells, keep 'em in their place.

I find it interesting that I grew up having to work hard for my earnings. I had to work as a kid to make my own money. My parents didn't believe in giving you an allowance, like some neighbors. I guess I had privilege but I didn't know it.

I don't think these people are privileged.

Race is big money to a lot of people. Thats why it stays in the news .24/7. It makes money and it helps corporate democrats that dont give a shit about regular people.

[quote] The book is all anecdotes and minimal data. Her basic premise is that since she is a racist ( and she really does sound massively racist) all other white people are racist.

She is a racist lecturing non racists about how racist they are and getting rich off of it. What a sad time to be alive.

[quote] Has anybody been on one of these workshops? I'd be interested to hear what they're like. I'll bet the net result of them is intensified eggshell-walking and all the white people just avoiding engaging with POC in case they are misinterpreted or they say or do something wrong.

Imagine having to go through a white guilt seminar and have to learn a new set of pronouns during the same week. I can't imagine anyone going through that not wanting to blow their brains out.

[quote]Has anybody been on one of these workshops? I'd be interested to hear what they're like.

I was supposed to attend one but what do you know the day before it took place I got "sick" with a terrible "stomach bug" and was unable to leave my house for three days.

In other words, I gave myself a lovely extended weekend.

It sounds like when my seventies mom went to EST and was trapped in a hotel conference room and chastised and belittled with no positive outcome. However she paid good money for the experience!

Black academics such as John McWhorter and Glenn Lowry have commented on how condescending and infantilizing they find her approach.

I read the first two chapters—that seemed enough to get the obvious gist.

I read it when it came and was amazed at how condescending towards black people it is.

Also, there’s an interesting part where she shares a text exchange with a friend where the friend talks about not wanting to move to some city because it’s a high crime area. DiAngelo calls her racist for this. I wonder where DiAngelo lives?

She was right about that movie, The Blind Side. Those “white frau savior” movies are really grating.

I'm off to buy another Mercedes. Thanks for the money, suckers!

[quote]Her basic premise is that since she is a racist ( and she really does sound massively racist) all other white people are racist.

A thief things everybody steals.

OP, it’s not new. I recall reading it early 2018.

But, her timing sure was perfect!

Anyone describing something or someone as "woke" is automatically a trumptard shithead.

Yes, white fragility is a problem whose "sufferers" constantly demand that they be coddled by everyone else. Pain in the ass snowflakes is what they are and they are all over this fucking thread.

They're so blind/stupid that they think white privilege is about getting an allowance.

Think bigger, try thinking beyond yourselves.

I have rarely bought a book on Amazon, and when I do it's usually a nuts-and-bolts how-to book. I tend to buy items like tools and socks and similar.

Yet, for MONTHS, every time I log in, this book "White Fragility" is at the top of "Amazon Recommends" on the home page.

NO, Amazon. Fuck you and your self-flagellating "Amazon is committed to doing better blah blah blah" forelock-tugging white guilt crap. You're committed to doing better? Are you admitting you were viciously discriminating against black people until now?

If Amazon feels guilty, let Jeff Bezos donate a billion dollars and leave your customers out of it.

Look, white people can't relate to the struggles black people face. Straight people can't relate to the struggles gay people face. Men can't relate to the struggles women face, etc.

However, we can show compassion for others and not make others feel, or declare them, inferior (which is the cause for a lot of people's problems or struggles in the first place).

[quote] They are all the rage in corporate USA.

Yep. I know several huge businesses just in NYC that bought this book for all their employees, telling them it was "essential" they read it. That partially explains what R44 said about topping the sales lists.

This white grifter bitch is making bank!!

I agree [R45]. Compassion can’t be taught in a workshop, it’s there all along for the majority of people. Shaming creates withdrawal and reluctance. What I don’t like about her, in a nutshell, is that she’s cynically exploiting the natural good in people to “do better” as the kids say today.

I wish you would all die in your very own personal greasefires, fucking fragile morons.

R49= Robin Diangelo or Robin's hairy lesbian lover

"White Fragility" is r49's bible and Robin Diangelo is his jesus.

R39

She apparently lives in Seattle, but I'll put money on the neighborhood not being Rainier Valley or even the somewhat gentrified Central District. Since she works at the UW, my money's on Laurelhurst or Montlake.

I like fragile crackers when they keep whining about how they're definitely, absolutely, 100% for sure NOT fragile!

r4 I haven't read the book therefore cannot comment on it, but punchable face.

She doesn't look that white.

^^Of course on Datalounge standards of whiteness are akin to the Third Reich but I can assure you that caucasians with brown hair and brown eyes are still white.

John McWhorter did a great take-down in the Atlantic. I'll post some of the better paragraphs:

We must consider what is required to pass muster as a non-fragile white person. Refer to a “bad neighborhood,” and you’re using code for Black; call it a “Black neighborhood,” and you’re a racist; by DiAngelo’s logic, you are not to describe such neighborhoods at all, even in your own head. You must not ask Black people about their experiences and feelings, because it isn’t their responsibility to educate you. Instead, you must consult books and websites. Never mind that upon doing this you will be accused of holding actual Black people at a remove, reading the wrong sources, or drawing the wrong lessons from them. You must never cry in Black people’s presence as you explore racism, not even in sympathy, because then all the attention goes to you instead of Black people. If you object to any of the “feedback” that DiAngelo offers you about your racism, you are engaging in a type of bullying “whose function is to obscure racism, protect white dominance, and regain white equilibrium.”

That is a pretty strong charge to make against people who, according to DiAngelo, don’t even conceive of their own whiteness. But if you are white, make no mistake: You will never succeed in the “work” she demands of you. It is lifelong, and you will die a racist just as you will die a sinner.

Remember also that you are not to express yourself except to say Amen. Namely, thou shalt not utter:

I know people of color.

I marched in the sixties.

You are judging me.

You don’t know me.

You are generalizing.

I disagree.

This is an abridgment of a list DiAngelo offers in Chapter 9; its result is to silence people. Whites aren’t even allowed to say, “I don’t feel safe.” Only Black people can say that. If you are white, you are solely to listen as DiAngelo tars you as morally stained. “Now breathe,” she counsels to keep you relaxed as you undergo this. She does stress that she is not dealing with a good/bad dichotomy and that your inner racist does not make you a bad person. But with racism limned as such a gruesome spiritual pollution, harbored by individuals moreover entrapped in a society within which they exert racism merely by getting out of bed, the issue of gray zones seems beside the point. By the end, DiAngelo has white Americans muzzled, straitjacketed, tied down, and chloroformed for good measure—but for what?

And herein is the real problem with White Fragility. DiAngelo does not see fit to address why all of this agonizing soul-searching is necessary to forging change in society. One might ask just how a people can be poised for making change when they have been taught that pretty much anything they say or think is racist and thus antithetical to the good. What end does all this self-mortification serve? Impatient with such questions, DiAngelo insists that “wanting to jump over the hard, personal work and get to ‘solutions’” is a “foundation of white fragility.” In other words, for DiAngelo, the whole point is the suffering. And note the scare quotes around solutions, as if wanting such a thing were somehow ridiculous.

A corollary question is why Black people need to be treated the way DiAngelo assumes we do. The very assumption is deeply condescending to all proud Black people. In my life, racism has affected me now and then at the margins, in very occasional social ways, but has had no effect on my access to societal resources; if anything, it has made them more available to me than they would have been otherwise. Nor should anyone dismiss me as a rara avis. Being middle class, upwardly mobile, and Black has been quite common during my existence since the mid-1960s, and to deny this is to assert that affirmative action for Black people did not work.

In 2020—as opposed to 1920—I neither need nor want anyone to muse on how whiteness privileges them over me. Nor do I need wider society to undergo teachings in how to be exquisitely sensitive about my feelings. I see no connection between DiAngelo’s brand of reeducation and vigorous, constructive activism in the real world on issues of import to the Black community. And I cannot imagine that any Black readers could willingly submit themselves to DiAngelo’s ideas while considering themselves adults of ordinary self-regard and strength. Few books about race have more openly infantilized Black people than this supposedly authoritative tome.

Methinks you doth protest too much, R57/R58.

Didn't Oprah and Jimmy Fallon buy into all of this crap?

Thanks for posting R57

r59 they are quoting a review of the book

Kelefa Sanneh wrote an interesting review of the book and her workshop methods well before this current moment; in a nutshell: she's condescending towards blacks.

R43, you're wrong about "woke" being MAGA code. I've seen the woke themselves bemoan the fact that the word has become tainted and meaningless.

John McWhorter, a Black linguistics professor at Columbia has also critiqued White Fragility as racist.

Another critique

No, "woke" is definitely a trumptard tell word, normal people don't use it.

It's not new, OP. It's over two years old. I used to work with Robin a few years ago. She was the Director of Equity and Inclusion there.

Here’s an especially creepy photo of her and unexpectedly, a critique from the NYT.

In the book, she mentions that white employees in her workshops “shut down and withdraw” when she scolds them for saying something she thinks reveals their racism. She comes off as a smug, naggy Uber frau, much like Peggy Noonan does. I’ll pass on any pearls of wisdom from either.

As someone said above, you cannot force compassion. But if this is an area of self-improvement you want to explore, its best to undertake it in your private life, not as required by your emplorer, knowing your job is on the line if you say something that someone else is offended by. (Di Angelo stresses that the white person’s intention is irrelevant; it’s how a black person receives his comment which matters).

In other words, a corporate environment isn’t the place to share your musings about your latent racist feelings aloud, amongst your boss and coworkers, with you livelihood at stake. This is why people “withdraw.” These “trainings” are useless except as a way for companies to defend themselves against lawsuits: “We did all we could to prevent racism in our environment; we even held diversity training.”

Another thing Di Angelo fails to acknowledge is that disharmony between two coworkers where one is white and the other black isn’t necessarily due to racism on the part of the white one. Sometimes its simply about personalities. Di Angelo doesn’t allow for that kind of complexity. All in all, it’s a very simplified, cynical look at how people interact, collaborate at work, form bonds, make enemies, etc.

Sorry, link here.

The arrogance from all the usual suspects who preach the white -people-bad/black-people-oppressed doctrine is that they ALL assume that all white people have never, ever heard of slavery , or knows anything about racism in the USA, or has ever researched the subject of slavery without being required to, or has ever been a target of racism, or has ever been bullied. They assume that the "journey" doesn't count unless the white person has to started with them. When I've been asked, I simply say, "oh, yes, I've already taken that 'course'." This seems to confuse them and I, of course, just keep doing what I was doing.

She looks like a rejuvenated Hedda Nussbaum at R69.

r70 makes no sense.

[quote]Anyone describing something or someone as "woke" is automatically a trumptard shithead.

That's a little too "reductive," as Madonna might say. People from across the political spectrum who are critical of mindless identity politics use it mockingly, true, but that includes people like the very reasonable and sane, left-of-center author and commentator Andrew Doyle and the liberal political scientist Columbia professor Mark Lilla. The above-mentioned black professors Lowry and McWhorter use it all the time as well on their podcasts. "Woke" has become far too widespread a term to be limited to just "trumptards," as it's commonly used in Europe now as well, whether seriously or sardonically.

[quote]“That one now hears the word "woke" everywhere is a giveaway that spiritual conversion, not political agreement, is the demand. Relentless speech surveillance, the protection of virgin ears, the inflation of venial sins into mortal ones, the banning of preachers of unclean ideas -- all these campus identity follies have their precedents in American revivalist religion.” ― Mark Lilla, The Once and Future Liberal: After Identity Politics

I'm only half white. Am I supposed to read pages 1-96 or 97-192?

I prefer when Kafka wrote it.

Lilla uses such a great analogy at r73

These wokeshops are similar in tone and intent to the infamous "struggle sessions" of the "Cultural Revolution" under Mao. It's especially sinister that people are made to "confess" their sins (of being born white) at their jobs, on pain of losing their livelihood.

Here's one of many articles making the comparison between Maoist "struggle sessions" and woke culture:

{quote]In the struggle sessions the accused, often teachers suspected of lacking proletarian feeling, were paraded through streets and campuses, sometimes stadiums. It was important always to have a jeering crowd; it was important that the electric feeling that comes with the possibility of murder be present. Dunce caps, sometimes wastebaskets, were placed on the victims’ heads, and placards stipulating their crimes hung from their necks. The victims were accused, berated, assaulted. Many falsely confessed in the vain hope of mercy.

{quote][bold]Were any “guilty”? It hardly mattered. Fear and terror were the point. A destroyed society is more easily dominated.[/bold]

{quote]The Chinese Catholic Margaret Chu, a medical-lab assistant, was dragged into the office of her labor camp in 1968 and made to answer invented charges. “Their real motive was once and again to force me to admit all my alleged crimes,” she wrote decades later. “ ‘I did not commit any crimes,’ I asserted.” She was accused again, roughed up. She denied her guilt again. “Immediately two people jumped on me and cut off half my hair.”

{quote]She was tortured, left in handcuffs for 100 days, and imprisoned for years. While being tortured she sometimes prayed for death so her suffering would stop.

{quote]The Cultural Revolution lasted roughly a dozen years and died with Mao in September 1976. In time a party congress denounced it as what it was: ruinous.

{quote]So I ask you to entertain an idea that has been on my mind. I don’t want to be overdramatic, but the spirit of the struggle session has returned and is here, in part because of the internet, in part because of the extremity of our politics, in part because more people are lonely. “Contention is better than loneliness,” as my people, the Irish, say, and they would know.

{quote]The air is full of accusation and humiliation. We have seen this spirit most famously on the campuses, where students protest harshly, sometimes violently, views they wish to suppress. Social media is full of swarming political and ideological mobs. In an interesting departure from democratic tradition, they don’t try to win the other side over. They only condemn and attempt to silence.

{quote]The spirit of the struggle session is all over Twitter. On literary Twitter social-justice warriors get advance copies of new books and denounce them for deviationism—as insensitive, racist, appropriative, anti-LGBTQ. Books on the eve of publication have been pulled, sometimes withdrawn by authors who apologize profusely. Everyone’s scared. And the tormentors are not satisfied by an apology. They’re excited by it and prowl for more prey.

[R77] I read an interview with a young woman who had called out a peer for some transgression, thereby ruining her career and causing her to leave the city, and she admitted that the feeling of doing so was a thrilling high similar to sex.

Let’s not go overboard. This is not the Maoist Cultural Revolution. No one is being paraded down streets, thrown in jails. Racists remain quite safe in this country, especially if they are not liberals.

Avoiding those kinds of overheated analogy doesn’t let Di’Angelo off the hook. Just as avoiding her overheated white fragility theory doesn’t let racism off the the hook.

R79, This may not be the Maoist Cultural Revolution, but as someone who grew up in East Germany, it does have very real parallels to East Germany. It isn't an overheated analogy.

[quote]It makes money and it helps corporate democrats that dont give a shit about regular people.

It also gives corporations cover for employment practices that do a lot more harm to black employees than any supposed white fragility does. "Look at how enlightened we are as a company (and pay no attention to our pathetic salary structures)."

R80, have you considered that just because it reminds you of East Germany doesn’t mean it actually is true? Someone who was abused as a child may be triggered by someone raising their voice in an argument, but it doesn’t mean they are equivalent.

East Germany had the Stasi, pressure from the Soviet Union, and the full power of the state. Robin Di’Angelo has a book to hawk.

Maybe all the bourgeois white and black woke folks should stop torturing each other. Put less energy into these silly word and mind games. Go help the poor, dirty, trapped, hungry folks.

History doesn't repeat itself exactly. Its not impossible that in the hyperconnected capitalist system we are in the primary means of enforcement of totalitarian tendencies would be a combination of social media and corporate practices. Cue student mobs only when needed.

It's a fantastic book that a lot of misinformed white people unaware of their everyday racism would do well to read along with White Rage by Prof. Carol Anderson for the scores of whites that were not properly educated about the history of race in school.

[quote] It's dumb.

Have you read it? Tell the truth.

Martin Luther King's dream is dead. If people were judged by character instead of race, we wouldn't have these criminal Republicans destroying our democracy.

R82, have you considered that perhaps I have better understanding of such matters. To use your example, someone who was abused as a child will have a better understanding of the line between simple anger and abuse.

You can pick at the details all you want. The issue isn't the details, it is the behavior.

This is a new trend: minorities believing that Caucasians are burning in shame and agonizing over their own racist tendencies.

Martin Luther King? The academic fraudster and spiritual leader who serial cheated on his wife and enjoyed sexually abusing women on his staff or in his ministry? That MLK? What was his dream, again?

r87. Because we live in a snake oil salesmen driven society where people manipulate other people to control them. It's our society's very foundation to use hot button issues like racism to pit one group against the other and sell them all the necessary tools to keep fighting against each other.

R88, I think you have a very skewed perspective. The Stasi investigated people who littered. This movement is targeted at educated white liberals and moderates. The vast majority of white Americans are unaffected, regardless of how fragile or racist they may be.

R89 You thinking minorities aren't aware of the brazenness of racists is why you're losing the culture war, Chad.

[quote]This may not be the Maoist Cultural Revolution, but as someone who grew up in East Germany, it does have very real parallels to East Germany. It isn't an overheated analogy.

Conservative blogger Rod Dreher refers to it as "soft totalitarianism."

It's a good book for people who are new to the topic or haven't considered their own privilege. It's not 100% for me though because the author is an acedemic who lives in Seattle, one of the whitest places in the whole country. I think she goes overboard with the guilt. It definitely sounds like people in her workshop sessions are absolutely trying to hint to her they feel more comfortable around black people and around black issues than she does. And this woman is COMPLETELY focused on breaking people down to say I AM RACIST out loud regardless of what they think they already know.

R90 That his children would be judged by the content of their character and not their race.

MLK's children are talentless grifters.

R90 If you want to talk about a fraudster you need look no further than the current occupant of the White House.

R98 sure him, too. At least MLK had many redeeming qualities. Trump is complete poison.

Her plan probably works on quite a few people but it is very prescriptive. Any difference of perspective is treated as denial.

My work required it.

One of the most sinister things is that her plan makes it impossible for ANY white person to not be labeled a racist.

"I'm not racist!" = Typical white fragility. React with a defensive meltdown when someone confronts you on the evil you hide. Fragility in action.

"I'm not racist! All of my best friends are black and I married a black man!" = Overcompensating for the evil you hide, and having a fragility-induced meltdown combined with hysterical denials of the truth. That's the most racist thing you can do.

"Okay, I'm racist." = You sure as hell are. Bet you wish every day you had black slaves to whip and kill, you scumbag.

Posters like r102 are exhausting.

Actually, R103, poster R102 sums up what others have criticized about this book pretty accurately: the idea of silencing people versus engaging them in an open dialogue and making them part of the conversation.

Coleman Hughes on Robin DiAngelo:

R104 ACTUALLY, finding black people, gay people, or any other minority willing to be used that will endorse Trump, disavow BLM, and support the goals of white supremacy or anti-gayness, etc as pawns to make your points is about as see thru of a ruse as you can get.

You're a racist. Welcome to the block list.

There's well over 455 years of savagery from white people in America to point to when it comes to just how bad white people really are. And the shit still continues today.

I don't understand why white people are mad at the fact that there's literally centuries of their own bad behavior on record and well documented history, that they've perpetuated. But they want no one to talk about, especially the very people who have suffered at their hands.

It's going to ALWAYS be talked about, it's our nations history and nothing will ever change that.

Hughes is one of the sanest and most rational, clear-headed people on this or any subject. Suggesting that he's some bought-and-paid-for stooge that white bigots can quote for the sake of credibility debases and invalidates him and shows that you know nothing about him and his ideas. It is offensive.

Criticizing and questioning the validity and effectiveness of DiAngelo's methods does not equate racism. This thread should be about whether her approach and her work can actually, realistically have a positive impact, which many here are skeptical about. This is not the same as denying the harm done to black people over the centuries. So quick and eager are you to come out with the inevitable "racist!" slur that you refuse to consider these differences.

It SHOULD be talked about, R106. No one is denying that.

Ever have one of these conversations? "Hey, we need to talk about last night, but you're just gonna get mad like you always do." "What do you mean? I'm ready to talk right now." "See, you're already denying your anger. There's no point trying to reason with you."

Robin DiAngelo is trying to force every white person into that conversation. It achieves nothing.

R6 the replies only prove that the people who actually agree with that book work on a one neurotransmitter kind of brain.

Liberals *love* to talk about the last 455 years of savagery, r106, yet DiAngelo labels them the worst.

The title is intended to be offensive, won't read it, won't pay for it, the author has gotten rich enough already milking race relations, and its "importance" is as inflated at the author's claims.

The only reason whites won't talk about race is because the "talk" only goes in one direction. Why would anyone sign up for it?

How about, "Gentile Fragility" and a long treatise on why gentiles won't talk about 1,500 years of Jew-hatred?

R110, that's because they are the ones that tolerate -- no, welcome -- this meaningless self-flagellation.

Try this on a foreman at a printing plant in Okahoma City, and you won't get the same reaction.

I love this. Fraus gonna frau.

[quote] Hughes is one of the sanest and most rational, clear-headed people on this or any subject.

Yes, he's endorsed widely by racists, libertarians and right wing figures for his views that are basically what any conservative white male from the 60's could have told you. You're a racist. You've been exposed. It's clear what you're doing and what you're about.

Hughes believes in letting white people off the hook. That's his whole philosophy in a nutshell and people are not going to go for that.

The chickens have not come home to roost yet, but it's coming it always does.

Nick Cannon was not wrong for calling white people savages, the history is there and continues to be.

There are other two books on this topic written by Black authors that didn't do as well as this book on the bestsellers list. A lot of black people on twitter weren't too impressed with this tidbit. I'd almost prefer sitting down with people in my own city from different life experiences.

R107 reeks of Jordan Peterson videos and lonely nights filled with masturbation.

Coleman Hughes is basically to White Libertarian Chuds as what Diamond Silk are to the Trump cult. Quillette author. At a mere 24 R107 has hailed him as "one of the sanest and most rational, clear-headed people on this or any subject." Laughable.

Slightly more eloquent with why racism is fine, liberals are the problem, black people are to blame for generations of injustice, etc... than Diamond & Silk, but both serve the same function and drill home to same debunked racist talking points in the end that serve to advance the white supremacist agenda.

Everyone complaining about this book should read The Color of Law.

Someone else's personal opinions about white folks may be too much and not relevant for you, but seriously, read Color of Law and learn about how really deep racism can go in every day life.

It's not really Woke-y, so even the more old school caftan flapper should be able to read it and not roll her eyes.

What kind of a board is this if you can't even suggest there might be better alternatives to addressing racism than Robin DiAngelo's overpriced corporate workshops? She's such a marshmallow target for cynicism and practically invites parody.

I've been following Coleman Hughes for a few years and have heard his opinions on everything from animal rights to Hegel to Bayard Rustin and the origins of the Civil Rights Movement. I'm European and have learned a lot from him; his is an impressively mature intellect. Just because *some* bigoted white Americans have glommed onto him for all the wrong reasons and have used him to further their own agendas does not mean he's a Candace Owens. He has a pretty diverse following. He's also much smarter and more serious and more in the vein of the aforementioned John McWhorter and Glenn Loury, critical and sometimes provocative thinkers who no doubt receive their share of abuse as well.

I recommend everyone read the "Caste" that explains a lot of what's going on in America.

That'll explain exactly why so many people think white people are the devil and why racism is so heavily linked and associated with white people.

Because it truly is.

Rev. William Barber has more useful things to say, and it's not simply about people of color, it's about poverty in America as well, for all of us.

And while y'all are reading the Color of Law maybe pick up Zinn's History of the United States.

R118: you're good at filling in your own blanks and then getting it totally wrong. I'm Dutch, non-white, left of center politically and would not waste two minutes on a Jordan Peterson video.

It's demoralizing that it's apparently not possible to challenge DiAngelo's approach in good faith without instantly being branded a racist. Anything other than a full, uncritical, unequivocally positive endorsement of DiAngelo's is now apparently interpreted as racism. She would be proud of you; you're practicing exactly what she's preaching. Enjoy your blocking and silencing.

I read White Fragility because I wanted to see what people were referencing. I am curious about Caste (thanks Oprah and R121)

I want to read Caste too.

I have The Warmth of Other Suns and am about a third of the way through. Stopped because I injured my arm and heavier books are harder to hold and read (and yes, I have switched to ebooks for other titles). But want to finish that, too.

The truth is, people are racist and bigoted in all sorts of ways. The real question is: **Is it responsible for African-Americans' financial underperformance?**

Let's face it -- gay men discriminate against Asians. Any anti-Asian discrimination, however, doesn't stop Asians from getting into Yale and becoming rich doctors & techies.

The focus on racism is to answer the question as to why all the $$$ we've thrown at the inner-cities hasn't done anything. The only problem it has solved (I hope!) is hunger.

R126 A lot of money has been thrown at inner cities, but little was *invested* in it.

Public housing in the US failed because there was no investment element. Much of it was done as a tradeoff to chasing black people out of their existing neighborhoods when cities wanted to build highways over that land, and while money was spent to build, no money was ever set aside to sustain it, and few, if any, black builders or community leaders were ever involved with that kind of investment.

Reparations is a touchy subject but there are elements of truth to that and to conservative's complaints that existing policies have people dependent on assistance. The approach should be long term investment and sustainability, and I don't think any administration of any party ever understood that very well.

The lengthy NYT piece about this kind linked above is fascinating. The deeper you dig, the more it seems like they want to make the underclass's values the norm rather than encouraging/helping the underclass to achieve more in life.

It's all a class/poverty issue. Well-educated, well-qualified dark-skinned people are able to thrive in the supposed white supremacist US.

R128, if that were true, we would've had a black president by now. Or at least a black Supreme Court justice, or a black Secretary of State, or a black senator, or a black governor, or a black mayor of a big city.

My theory is that AA’s brains are genetically more dopamine dependent and are therefore more attention-seeking & prone to paranoia, hence the reason for all these issues becoming bigger issues in the community.

There are real problems in the urban black culture that aren't going to end anytime soon. The white cops/black suspects meme is 24/7 but blacks killing blacks is another epidemic no one cares about.

[quote] The deeper you dig, the more it seems like they want to make the underclass's values the norm rather than encouraging/helping the underclass to achieve more in life.

It's because we have a growing underclass. Growing population (mostly due to immigration), widening income inequality, innovation replacing jobs in a few years what took generations before, tech positions and manufacturing being outsourced, property values skyrocketing, etc . Politicians and local leaders don't have the answers or solutions to tackle these problems, so they seek to normalize it.

racist R5

racist misogynist shit, R24

It's mostly overeducated white people who are pushing this anti racism. No other group is talking about or taking its claims seriously.

I read it. She makes some good points. The book is aimed at white liberals.

The issue I have with her thesis is two fold: 1. She defines racism as something that is institutional not individual. But then she turns around and uses it on a personal level. She can’t keep her definition of racism straight.

2. It’s basically religion. The original sin is slavery and institutional or systemic racism. As white people all are guilty of the sin. We must dedicate our lives to anti-racism since we are subconsciously part of the racist system. Don’t ask POC to help you on this journey (because they are exhausted and don’t want to do you work). If you don’t know the work, the priests (enlightened white people like the author. You must spend the rest of life atoning. If you question any of this, you are guilty of white fragility.

She has some interesting ideas but I would have like too see more academic rigor and less white liberal flagellation porn.

Sorry meant “ If you don’t know the work, the priests (enlightened white people like the author) are here to guide you.

[quote] However, we can show compassion for others and not make others feel, or declare them, inferior (which is the cause for a lot of people's problems or struggles in the first place).

We used to show compassion for others when they fell on hard times or had difficulties getting ahead. Now, we excuse them or normalize them even if they are mentally ill.

This thread is a glue trap for wokescolds.

The point made above about actually investing in communities as opposed to throwing money at them is on point. This is where our attention should be, not upper middle class whites self-castigating and then that is that, the work is done here. I am paranoid that these racial divides are being used to detract from the bread and butter issues that affect all poor and working class people. Divide and conquer, we’ve seen that movie before. Poor whites and blacks live in the same neighborhoods and have kids together and suffer together from lack of opportunities and bad schools in many American cities. I’m the one who started the Syracuse NY thread a few weeks ago and there, along with other rust belt cities, is what I’ve observed. From what I saw the neighborhoods weren’t segregated by race, but by class. While the wealthy class basically looks inward at their own struggles and attitudes in these workshops that resemble therapy , the country is crumbling. Honestly I haven’t read any Marx or classic political theory and I should if DL can recommend some basics. My thoughts are intuitive, and I’m alarmed by the divisions that are being exploited by all sides for political gain. I think a lot of non Americans would be shocked at the degree of poverty here. You drive a few blocks or a few miles in any direction from your enclave or bubble, and there you are. In my home state of Virginia you still see places with no indoor plumbing back in the countryside. We do have a habit of treating a lot of our fellow citizens like dog shit, and those citizens are black, white and brown. One of the guys I heard speak at the BLM March I went to was saying this—Imploring for unity among all poor people, so my impression is of that in terms of the movement. It has been warped by clueless white suburban kids. Malcolm X said to be wary of the white liberal most of all, and they have been the ones screaming at diners and being all around jerks in DC. Everything is so dystopian and sad, I have bad dreams almost every night.

R138 society as a whole now has a real “turn em & burn em” attitude towards everyone & everything faster than ever before.

What do John McWhorter and Glenn Loury have to say about it? You know, "Diamond & Silk" with doctoral dissertations? I'm sure McWhorter wrote a passionate rebuttal in Quillette, National Review, or WSJ and provided a fierce, pseudo-intellectual rebuttal, while urging African-Americans to vote for Trump since he has their best interests in his heart and America has never been less racist than now!

[quote] Poor whites and blacks live in the same neighborhoods and have kids together and suffer together from lack of opportunities and bad schools in many American cities.

Actually, poor blacks and poor whites tend not to live in the same neighborhoods or go to the same schools.

我将松果粘在肛门上。

I'm not even a Marxist or even a Marxist sympathizer, and yet even I can see it with my capitalist eyes. The powers that be want to make sure there's never any cooperation between poor blacks ('we're only poor because Whitey oppresses us') and poor whites ('my ass we're privileged, what about hiring quotas'). As long as they're fighting each other over who oppresses whom and who is privileged, poor people won't see the Wall Street/government pigs that collude to stay at the tippy top of the pyramid, on the bones of the working poor and the former middle class.

[quote] How about, "Gentile Fragility" and a long treatise on why gentiles won't talk about 1,500 years of Jew-hatred?

Because they are all collectively complicit. As far as I’m concerned, not being Jewish makes you complicit in anti-Semitism.

This thread contains more truth bombs and common sense than her entire book.

All non-black races are beneficiaries of racism, not just whites.

[quote] We do have a habit of treating a lot of our fellow citizens like dog shit, and those citizens are black, white and brown.

I see this happening everywhere. It's mostly kids and senior citizens being exploited by people of all races. Part of it has to do with living in a more competitive society with less opportunities.

I’m glad Kamala Harris‘s ancestors owned slaves. I just wish it was legal for her to do the same. She has earned it. BLACKS should be legally allowed to enslave all non-BLACK races. That is the only way come anywhere close to paying what the entire BLACK race is owed. And that’s still not enough. Nothing less than total world domination is enough.

What does anyone whose last name is “diAngelo” know about racism other than being inherently responsible for it by virtue of her fascist ethnic background?

She's American, not Italian r151.

Would you blame Alec Baldwin for the Irish Republican Army?

R152 doesn't understand sarcasm.

I blame Alec Baldwin for his typical “straight” white Gentile male homophobia.

r153 are you new to DL? r151's opinion is actually what quite a few posters here believe.

Male fragility is the deliberate refusal to take a dick up your ass where it fucking belongs.

Straight guys (and gay tops) just don't know the pleasure of cumming with a cock in your ass. It's fucking intense.

[R153] Yes they do, in some cities. It’s not 1955 anymore. In DC the progressive parents tend to send their kids to the public schools for elementary but them send them to sidwell friends or the like for high school. I think if whites invested in local schools for the long haul, things would get better. But their desire for competition amongst the elites over rules the common good.

That's an anomaly r158. Most schools are still segregated. In CT there are no white kids in the public schools in Hartford, New Haven or Bridgeport for example.

r150 is expressing the true goals of this movement.

That’s de jure segregation, not de facto segregation.

Northern whites are some of the most racist whites.

On second thought, world domination is not enough either. The whole fucking universe and every planet in it, even the as-yet undiscovered ones, is.

R157 OMG, is it really that great?

Anyone with a net worth over $50-100M is the enemy. R145 is correct. It’s all a distraction.

One of the greatest cons in history was the white wealthy man selling blacks the idea to worship them & their lifestyle with Gangsta Bling Rap, while teaching them to be proud of behavior that is defiling themselves and their community. Even Kanye who has more money than he could ever use is still not in the good Ol boys club but still wants in the club and will dance for nickels to get in. The black community doesn’t hate the billionaires for creating the systems of their & everyone else’s corporate enslavement, they hate the white trash Walmart greeters & mechanics for looking at em funny... because American pop culture has taught them they’re two steps away from living large. No resolution will be found here. We’ll fight these same fights until our societal destruction and that coming destruction may be the exact intended outcome of these planned grievances being foisted upon everyone at a tedious pace.

I’ll leave you with this haiku by Nelly:

From broke to having brokers, my price-range is Rover

Now I'm knocking like Jehovah; let me in now, let me in now

Bill Gates, Donald Trump, let me in now

Spend now, I got money to lend my friends now

We in now, candy Benz, Kenwood and 10's now

I win now (Woo!), fucking lesbian twins now

Seeing now, through the pen I make my ends now

Yes, R165, and if you say publicly that the values Nelly is promoting are SHIT VALUES, whether they're coming from Donald Trump or Nelly or anyone else, you get called a Fragile White Racist.

"You got yours, Whitey! Now we want ours!" I guess. But what a sad dead end for anyone of any gender, age, race, or color who pursues those values in life.

R165 What a load of BS and awfully reductionist. Whether it be pop, rock, heavy metal, or rap. None of it promotes family values. It's meant to appeal to kids going through a rebellious phase. Musicians play the part because controversy and sex is what sells. It's really not more complicated than that.

I do find it strange when people like Cardi B interview Joe Biden. If you're only famous because you like to talk about your vagina, you should probably stay in your lane.

Many of the responses in this thread prove DiAngelo was spot on. Not even for one second can some of you step back and think, "Hey maybe she's got a point".

If you look up white fragility in Webster's there's photos of white DLers next to the definition.

I admire this bitch's grift. She's taken a hot-button contemporary issue and found a way to make millions off of it. She's laughing all the way to the bank.

If disagreeing with a theory only confirms the theory's truth by the terms the theory itself sets, it's an ideology.

A Marxist would say anyone who has a disagreement with Marx must have false consciousness, and since Marx predicted that, the disagreement only goes to prove he's right.

A Freudian would make a similar argument about anyone who disagrees with Freud: they must be in denial, which only proves Freud was right.

You're doing the same thing with white fragility. You're saying: if you disbelieve in it, then by doing so you're only showing how fragile you are. That's bullshit reasoning.

But White Fragility is bullshit. Just because somebody cooked up a theory doesn't make it true.

If I wanted to read up on this type of literature, I’d choose a work by someone who actually knows what they’re talking about: A black author.

So by questioning the theory we are 'proving' the theory, r158?

How convenient for you.

You've never heard of the "Kafka Trap", have you, r158?

No, of course you haven't.

Salem Witch Trials redux. And like the witch trials, it's primarily driven by hysterical fraus.

If an accused witch admits she's a witch, she's burned at the stake!

If she denies she's a witch, she's dunked in the water! If she drowns, she was innocent. If she doesn't drown, she's guilty! To the stake!

[quote] If you look up white fragility in Webster's there's photos of white DLers next to the definition.

I thought there would be pictures of Susan Clark and Alex Karras.

Cunt

If you look up DL anywhere this is the picture you get next to the definition....

And if you look up R177’s picture in the dictionary, it will be right next to the definition of “Nazi.”

Cunt much r178?

And if you look at this bitch‘s family tree, you are sure to find plenty of fascists and mobsters hanging from it.

At least that Jewish woman who claimed to be Black was trying to do something about the problem by being part of the solution.

[quote]And if you look at this bitch‘s family tree, you are sure to find plenty of fascists and mobsters hanging from it.

Not to defend this tedious woman, but most Italian Americans are not descended from fascists and mobsters. It's like saying all white Southerners are descended from slave owners. Slave owners were only a small percentage of the white Southern population at any given time.

The Italian bias on DL is truly one of the most bizarre things about this site. It's like you're living in the 1950s. Most people today don't even think of Italians as being "other" they just like any other white people. It's completely unexceptional.

So you admit that they are white. They allied with Hitler. They do not deserve to get off the hook for that. Ever. It’ll itself doesn’t have gay marriage. Even the Germans allow that. Even the fucking Germans are more advanced than they are.

So you admit that they are white. They allied with Hitler. They do not deserve to get off the hook for that. Ever. Italy itself doesn’t have gay marriage. Even the Germans allow that. Even the fucking Germans are more advanced than they are.

As long as she continues to identify as white, then she is part of the problem. If you can change your sex, then you sure as hell can and should change your race to Black.

Of course they're white idiot r184. And why should anyone be held accountable for what their ancestors did? They had no part in it and if we played the blame game everybody on Earth would have to atone for something and humanity would never move forward.

r116, Fuck Nick Cannon, he's an anti-Semite.

Pointing out her Italian heritage is part of the joke. Her book is no less ridiculous.

Who is joking? What have they done to atone for their crimes against humanity? Jack shit as far as I can see.

Don’t you realize you’re making fun of Black people?

[quote]Not to defend this tedious woman, but most Italian Americans are not descended from fascists and mobsters. It's like saying all white Southerners are descended from slave owners. Slave owners were only a small percentage of the white Southern population at any given time.

That is exactly what DiAngelo and her ilk are saying. Do try to keep up.

[quote]The Italian bias on DL is truly one of the most bizarre things about this site. It's like you're living in the 1950s. Most people today don't even think of Italians as being "other" they just like any other white people. It's completely unexceptional.

There is no Italian bias other than in your own narcissistic delusional mind. Many "Italians" are from Sicily, an area that was invaded by African Muslims known as Moors at the time, and their dominant genes are still visible in many Sicilians to this day. Just a little tip if you ever think of visiting the beautiful island someday: they are extremely proud of their heritage and would be highly offended if you ever referred to one of them as Italians. Ffs! So many Americans always want to impose their own view of the world onto everybody else. The recent Bantu braids incident with Adele is hard proof of that. Sicilians believe they're black! Just accept it and move on. Anyway, here's a funny video of a couple of Sicilians arguing in a cafe:

[quote]They had no part in it and if we played the blame game everybody on Earth would have to atone for something and humanity would never move forward.

Precisely.

She does say that she had a hard working class life as a way of making herself have more suffering authority than a middle class white person. But then she says that having a hard life doesn’t let you off the hook if you are white. So if you grow up in a trailer park being raped by your uncle and have nothing to eat, you are still more privileged than say, one of Obama’s daughters vacationing in Martha’s Vineyard. It’s a zero sum game with the amount of skin pigmentation trumping all other factors. This must be because if you have more skin pigmentation, whitey (who has the greatest authority in all scenarios) may look at you askance at the neiman marcus. I happen to think that many people are looked at askance at the Neiman Marcus, including myself. If everyone continues to interpret every single bit of side eye or tone of voice in the worst possible way, we are doomed. These are what are unhelpfully referred to as micro aggressions, I.e. interpreting whatever a stranger does as being offensive. There has to more grace and generosity in this world or we are stuck in a mire of paranoia.

[quote]There is no Italian bias other than in your own narcissistic delusional mind.

Are you new to Datalounge? There is a very strange bias against Italians here.

[quote]Many "Italians" are from Sicily, an area that was invaded by African Muslims known as Moors at the time, and their dominant genes are still visible in many Sicilians to this day.

DNA testing has proven this false. The African admixture in Sicily is lower than previously believed. The Moors were a ruling class and did not mingle with the native population copiously. Also, there weren't that many of them, they were a relatively small invading army and they didn't send for their own people to colonize Sicily.

[quote] Just a little tip if you ever think of visiting the beautiful island someday: they are extremely proud of their heritage and would be highly offended if you ever referred to one of them as Italians.

I never said anything about confusing Italians with Sicilians. Yes, this is common knowledge even to many Americans. Italians and Sicilians are two separate groups. They're both offended when people think Sicilians are Italian.

BTW Moors were of Berber stock, they were not black Africans.

'Moors' was a catch-all term over the centuries which often included black Africans, r195.

[quote]There is a very strange bias against Italians here.

Maybe it's because of THEIR racism, THEIR homophobia, THEIR abuse of women, THEIR glorification of toxic masculinity, and THEIR affinity for total crap.

Please r197. You can pretty much say that about any ethnic group, historically. Italian Americans are just like everyone else, except for perhaps a small subset of working-class Italians in the NYC metro area. And even they're not as insular as they used to be. Here in New England they're indistinguishable from other whites.

I think some of you are are really stuck in the past and think Italian-Americans today are the same as they were in period pieces from Martin Scorsese.

[quote]'Moors' was a catch-all term over the centuries which often included black Africans,

Moors came from what today is Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia. Obviously the inhabitants of those countries are and were not black Africans.

Here is a google image search for "The Moors of Venice", r199. There are a majority of black Africans depicted here.

Those are artistic interpretations r200, not historical reality.

R199 let’s talk about Moors & Sicilians.

r202 I wouldn't put something Tarantino said as historical fact.

The problem with posters like R118 is that they enter threads not to engage in any kind of discussion or to encounter opinions other than the 'acceptable' ones they already hold, but to scan posts for expressions of perceived racism and white fragility, and then level their accusations. They've already made up their minds and, in their way, are just as blinkered as the bigots they rail against.

It is true that the above-mentioned John McWhorter, Glenn Loury, and Coleman Hughes (all three of whom vote Democratic, by the way) are sometimes cited in bad faith by conservative whites. That's because they have presented a moderate counternarrative (I know DL rightly hates "narrative," but sometimes it's useful) to the likes of Black Lives Matter. They have added to the discussion by calling attitudes to racism by people like DiAngelo condescending and demeaning, and ultimately polarizing and conducive to victimization. They acknowledge that many white people with close black friends don't agree with DiAngelo's very rigid and two-dimensional view of relations between people of different races. But posters like R118 are easily threatened by other ideas and treat anything other than complete acquiescence of these and similar theories as racism. They see the imagined hidden agenda of every single poster who cites an author they perceive as antagonistic.

Questioning the somewhat simplistic, highly commercial corporate workshops taught by DiAngelo is akin to flippancy, oversensitivity, and--of course--racism in R118's eyes.

Citing John McWhorter (who calls out Trump every chance he gets) as a Trump apologist just shows that R118 ("Diamond & Silk with doctoral dissertations") has never taken the time to listen to McWhorter's podcasts or interviews or read any of his articles. I agree with the point of view that his perspective can be limited by his own privileged position in life, but he makes many valid points that posters like R118 can only filter and interpret as "letting whites off the hook."

I pay attention to a very wide range of liberal and conservative thinkers, and the only conservatives I truly can't stomach are the strident ones: the likes of Geller, Shapiro, Crowder and Owens, and, here in Europe, people like Leon de Winter and Renaud Camus and his theory of "the great replacement."

[quote]I read it. She makes some good points. The book is aimed at white liberals.

Of course it's aimed at White Liberals. Who else would waste $$ on it?

R199 In Spain, some people (including my host mom) referred to any black Pierson as “Moro”. So that usage exists, though it’s not historically accurate.

Also, black beans and rice is called “moros y cristianos” there as late as 15 years ago. Don’t know if PC culture there changed it.

r199 has no idea what it is talking about.

Thank you, R204. Agree with every word. I blocked every DiAngelo fan in this thread. Any sensible person can see through her Salem witch trial bullshit.

[quote][R199] has no idea what it is talking about.

Read some history, what I wrote is accurate. The Moors were North Africans.

Yes to everything R204 wrote, though I think it's unfair to include someone like Candace Owens in a discussion of serious thinkers. She seems to be leveraging her black female identity to make a cash grab with demagoguery.

I would also add that I've rarely ever read a reasoned opinion on Joe Rogan on this board. The same posters chime in on every thread about him with the same facile comments: he's dismissed as a "gateway drug to the alt-right" and someone inevitably always says that "his douche-bro fans consider him an intellectual." Neither argument really holds up.

The thing is that you can both see through and be somewhat skeptical and suspicious of Rogan, his lack of a consistent ideology, his (conscious or unconscious) tendency to pander to whoever his guest is that day, his studied self-deprecation and dismissal of himself as a "guy no one takes seriously" AND enjoy his show and the diversity of his guests and agree or disagree with the opinions being expressed. With the exception of Howard Stern, who else has interviewed Richard Dawkins AND Miley Cyrus AND Megan Phelps-Roper AND Mike Tyson AND Bernie Sanders?

There seems to be this notion among some DL posters that anything other than vehement, wholesale rejection of divisive figures equals tacit or explicit support. As if we're not thinking adults who can make up our own minds and retain a healthy skepticism about everything we see and hear. I disagree with a lot of Douglas Murray's and Peter Hitchens' ideas and find them closed-minded in many ways, but since they're at least serious commentators who can put forward an idea I'll listen and learn, and in some cases reconsider and take some of what they say on board. I just don't understand the impulse to refuse to engage with anyone whose views don't align exactly with your own as if they're "toxic" and contagious. Isn't that just another form of "fragility?"

Trump orders crackdown on federal antiracism training, calling it 'anti-American':

Black fragility:

Black fragility:

Black and hetero fragility:

No, no matter how highly they think of themselves, Shapiro, Crowder, Owens and their like are not "thinkers"--that would be way too generous. They are commentators vying for attention. I have no interest in seeing Shapiro go on an utterly predictable 25-minute rant against Cardi B's "WAP" for his followers.

It's pretty well established by now that minority public figures whose ideas are palatable to the far right have been adopted by those factions to advance their agendas. Even in the Netherlands, the loathsome Thierry Baudet has latched onto the conservative black academic Thomas Sowell. But to assume that is the sole reason anyone would take an interest in their work is demeaning and delegitimizing, and these public figures have no control over who gloms onto their work and whether or not they are genuine. The most blatant example of a paid mouthpiece is Candace Owens, who's on the payroll of Prager University. R213 R214 R215

I think Douglas Murray said it best - we’re being taught racial division.

For those questioning John McWhorter's political allegiances and calling him a Trump apologist, he spells it out at the 8'15" mark:

"We have a truly repulsive moron of a president who makes a lot of people very very upset – justifiably"

[quote] Maybe it's because of THEIR racism, THEIR homophobia, THEIR abuse of women, THEIR glorification of toxic masculinity, and THEIR affinity for total crap.

At my high school in Philadelphia in the eighties, most of the racial agitators were Italian Americans. Absolutely hateful towards blacks, Hispanics and Vietnamese.

I'm allergic to oat milk, soy milk, rice milk and almond milk, on top of being lactose intolerant, so I make my own rose milk. I'm delicate that way.

Thanks for sharing, R220.

Sorry, that belonged in the milk thread! Apologies for parking it here.

R220 Thanks for clarifying. You lost me after almond milk.

[quote]I'm allergic to oat milk, soy milk, rice milk and almond milk, on top of being lactose intolerant, so I make my own rose milk. I'm delicate that way.

White fragility!

[quote] At my high school in Philadelphia in the eighties, most of the racial agitators were Italian Americans. Absolutely hateful towards blacks, Hispanics and Vietnamese.

I was right. Fascism runs in their fucking blood.

r225 does violence and looting run in the blood of black people?

Do smart people really think that being white makes you automatically a racist? its so hard to tell irony from reality nowadays. If you dislike blacks you're racist, if you like them you're a fetishist, you can never win with woke people, can you?

[quote] does violence and looting run in the blood of black people?

We didn’t bring the Mafia, bootlegging, racketeering, White slavery and prostitution to America...

You're insane r228. You have a bizarre prejudice against Italians.

You do realize that the Mafia was 1% of the Italian population, right? And that bootlegging, racketeering, white slaves and prostitution are not Italian inventions..?

The Mafia brought organized crime to America. Now they’re being supplanted by the Russian mob. But they still have their thumbs in the pie of illegal drugs and illegal betting.

The slave trade was and continues to be based in North Africa. The subsaharan Mali Empire was, at one point, the wealthiest in the world--thanks to the slave trade.

The reason slaves were imported from Africa was because Africans were willing to capture and supply them.

Lots and lots of people acting horribly in history, it's not exclusive to Europeans. At all.

It never would’ve happened if there had never been prohibition.

The Europeans were the only ones who kept slaves for life! North African countries are culpable, but they were a bit more benevolent than the Dutch, English and French.

Let's remind McWhorter (who seems to be on this thread) what he said about George W. Bush. Care to comment on it, John?

Or on this?

Everything McWhorter said in the link posted by R236 is 100% true. Like it or loathe it, his words may sting but his statement is firm & valid. This is the point those who wish to carry "400 year of oppression" into the next 400 years just can't stomach. The responsibility, the accountability, and the relinquishment of victimhood mentality are simply too much to grasp to move forward. How odd that people who love to brandish the accusation of racism so easily use a white person like DiAngelo, who laughing all the way to the bank on your backs, as their cannon over people with lived experiences as black Americans like McWhorter, Loury, Hughes, Elder & Sowell. How racist in itself to assume, expect, or impose the notion that all blacks think, live or are affected the same as every other black person in America. Just like Susan Powter, who's of the same pop culture caliber, DiAngelo will not be remembered favorably by history.

Only because DiAngelo touched a nerve.

John, I noticed that you didn't comment on your wise words of advice for African-Americans in the Manhattan Institute article. I'm still waiting...

A couple of years back the New York Times ran a piece that showed Black men were still way behind white and Asian men in terms of wealth and income. What the article showed, but was ignored when the article was discussed was that Black women *had* attained parity with white women across all classes, but, of course, white women still earned and owned less than white men.

If it's just about race, why are women all earning approximately the same amount for the kind of the work they do, but earning less then white men? If it's all about race, why are Asian men doing better than everyone else?

If it's just about modern-day racism, why do Nigerian immigrants and their children do so well in the United States?

DiAngelo is managing to make the discussion about race all about her and white women like her. It's incredibly self-indulgent on a certain level.

White people are "fragile" in the sense they love to play the victim. Why? Because all people love to play the victim. The right has been going on about "victim" culture for forever, but I've never known any black, hispanic or gay people who claim to be as persecuted as Rand Paul does.

R236 He’s right. The US is less racist now than it was. Look how far we’ve come since, say, the 50s.

Now there is a movement to make people believe that there is nothing inherently good in white culture and that it should be destroyed, rather than improved. This point of view is exacerbated by young people who don’t learn history and don’t travel to other countries.

R242, Trump's awfulness and racism is the cause of that--it's allowed some extreme and extremely stupid ideas on the hard left to get more of a toehold than they should. And, yes, the very poor grasp of history that most young people have exacerbates the problem.

R232 You can say that all day but to the true-blue peddlers of white privilege, your comment proves your white privilege. If you're not white, then you're not really a person of color, because a real POC would never make a comment like that.

If we were less racist, we wouldn't be redacting [italic]Golden Girls[/italic] episodes from Hulu.

R244, Oh I know, but I'm a hard nut for those types to crack anyway--mostly because I quit caring about how I'm labeled a while ago. Being called a "racist" should matter, but people like DiAngelo make it meaningless. I mean, yeah, I think DiAngelo is right in describing herself as a racist, but a lot of this is just projecting her issues on others willy-nilly.

Basically, when White Fragility cultists try to pull out their newfound wokeness, I just ignore the personal attacks and stick to the argument. At some point, I point the underlying racism of some of their presumptions and they go a little whacko. It's both awful and weirdly entertaining.

They're basically relying on "You're a racist!" to shame you into silence. It really does have this cult-like quality and I'm a hardcore agnostic--I think atheists are too certain.

As far as white people are concerned, race relations have improved because they see more black faces on television, film and in music and fashion. So, for them the problem no longer exists. But yet, despite seeing what is on all the major and minor news media outlets, they still don't see the problem. I say black and not non-white because on the whole Asians and to a lesser degree Hispanics (white Hispanics) don't suffer as much discrimination. Are all black people just making this shit up? Are we laying awake in bed at night saying, "How can we stick it to THE MAN? I know, let's make up stories about police brutality, discrimination in housing and employment and pay white people to act like white nationalists and complain about their loss of white privilege!".

Yeah, we're making it up/exaggerating outright lying. Phew.

Saying "the United States is not racist because it elected Barack Obama twice" is like saying France has no problem with anti-Semitism because it once had a Jewish president (Léon Blum) or Germany is free of sexism because they elected Angela Merkel. I mean, really.

[quote] This point of view is exacerbated by young people who don’t learn history and don’t travel to other countries.

and who listen to too much hip-hop

That sounds like music that a rabbit would listen to!

I’m going to write a book called “White Liberal Fragility — Why it’s So Hard to Talk With White Liberals About How Wokeness Creates More Racism”

Lol, R250.

McWhorter’s critique is dead-on. As usual, he is the smartest guy in the room (yeah, I know the “woke” consider him an evil conservative, but he always builds his arguments on logic and evidence).

McWhorter and Ta-Nahesi Coates had an interesting discussion right before Barack Obama was elected in 2008. Both were gracious despite their differences, and both were engaging in their own way.

There is not White Fragility. This is just an attempt to say everyone who is white had privilege. How many whites haven't had privilege? Many are poor just like some minorities.

R255: I'm certainly no expert, but the privilege associated with being white in a 'white' country is that you'll never be judged purely based on your skin color and that people won't use your skin color against you. You can get away with things that black people can't. It's about that even more than the privilege of material wealth, which is attainable to everyone in theory.

Yes, the term "white privilege" is a little confusing for a lot of people because most people associate the term with the advantages of wealth in particular.

Plus, the people who lean heavily on white privilege seem disinclined to discuss the other kind of privileges out there that come from money and education, both of which tend to overwhelm basic white privilege in a lot of situations.

[quote]How many whites haven't had privilege?

White privilege can't be escaped. Poverty doesn't erase white privilege. All whites have it, just like they have white fragility. They've never had to suffer the way BIPOC have.

The entire world is not the US.

The US is so overrated.

How much white privilege did Matthew Shepard have when he was being beaten to death and tied to a fence post?

That’s one incident r261. And his assassination had nothing to do with race, but homophobia.

Where is the "being deliberately obtuse" troll when you need them?

White privilege is never having to worry about having band-aids that match your skin tone.

think about it.

I will never read this book.

Why read the book r265 when you live the life? 🙄

R264, I know very few white people whose skin tone actually matching those of Band-Aids. I see your point, but just saying.

Ayishat Akanbi said it well: "Maturity is being able to hear something undesirable about your in-group and view it objectively instead of defensively."

R268, would you care to apply that standard to addressing fatherlessness or criminality in the black community?

R268, would you care to apply the same standard to this quote?

[quote]If we consider how greatly he has sinned against the masses in the course of the centuries, how he has squeezed and sucked the blood again and again; if furthermore, we consider how the people gradually learned to hate him for this, and ended up by regarding his existence as nothing but punishment of Heaven for the other peoples, we can understand how hard this shift must be for the Jew.

Change "jew" to "white," and you have today's typical rhetoric. That quote's from Mein Kampf, by the way

R269, people ARE discussing this. They have been for a while.

R271, discussing it "objectively and not defensively"?

Looking inward to their own possible flaws or errors, not blaming it on whitey? Not that I've heard. Anyone who suggests that it's not entirely the fault of Centuries of Racism is immediately called an Uncle Tom or Deplorable or Porch N**er or worse.

OK, fine, but then stop with the fragile tears about how the white devil won't accept full responsibility for everything bad that's ever happened to black people anywhere. Apply the same standard to all, or none.

Racist white folk need to start getting used to their reign coming to an end.

I'm sorry to break it to you r273 but blacks will never be in charge of anything. It will be Asians if whites decline.

R273, Maybe, or they'll do what they did before and expand the definition of whiteness to include a lot of Latinos, many of whom define themselves as white already.

Since "race" is a social construct, its definition changes. After all, the killer of Trayvon Martin was Latino.

Just saw this thread. Its rather enormous irony is its length being tangible proof of DLers' extreme white fragility. (Which is understandable, given how geriatric and white the site skews.)

And yes, all or nearly white people actually are racist – in the context of having ingrained systemic biases against persons of color, including ones they never even consciously process. Hence the term "institutional racism."

No, the fact that POC commit crimes against other POC – both within their own races and others (e.g. Trayvon Martin) – has nothing to do with white fragility.

R276, may I introduce you to complete sentences? You should also meet its friend, the English language. With these new acquaintances, you might realize that individuals cannot have “systemic” or “institutional” biases.

Systemic or institutional biases affect individuals' beliefs, but thanks for yet another lame attempt at rationalizing your internalized racism.

When will blacks apologize for slavery as 48% of free blacks owned slaves vs. 1% of free whites? When will blacks apologize for creating the slave trade thousands of years before whites did? When will blacks apologize for the enslaving of whites for thousands of years(if you know your history you would know about how Carthage was at war with rome(carthage was in what is now modern day tunisia(north africa)) frequently due to them raiding and enslaving white europeans. We get the word slave from Slav(slavic) because the slavs(white people) were enslaved so often there very name became synonymous with forced servitude, frequently from persians as well as occasionally asians(mongols and huns).

If you're saying that I am benefiting from this system I'd like to know how. I get told that I am racist because of my skin color(because people don't understand irony), is that my privilege? Is it my privilege to be accused of being racist despite the fact that blacks are 150% more likely to commit a hate crime then whites? Is it my privilege as a white person to be substantially more likely to be a victim of interracial violence compared to blacks(who commit 80% of all interracial violence)? Is it my privilege that if I am to be shot by a police officer it will be largerly ignored while a black person shot, regardless of whether or not the shooting was warrented(as the majority of the time it is), will get seven times the news coverage?

The only privilege I see is that whites are accountable for their actions and the actions of dead people and the actions of non white people and nonwhites are not accountable for anything ever. Hate to be the barer of bad news, but thats racism. Instead of claiming that our system is racist despite the fact that the US was the first nation in the world to start dismantling slavery(Mauritania(african nation) was the last(ended it officially in 1981. Vermont ended it in 1777, england wouldn't end it until 1840, China until 1930 etc.).

So blacks had slaves, whites had slaves but for less time, blacks continued slavery long after whites ended it, whites ended it first and encouraged nonwhites to end slavery and so the conclusion is that . . . white people as a whole are assholes and need to be punished for it? Seems a little racist and also stupid. Are you going to give up your privilege? I mean your demanding every one else live their life in perpetual shame, perpetual apology for crimes others commited, all because of the color of their skin, so are you going to give up what you have? Are you going to give up your high paying job to give it to a black person? Your nice house? Your car? Or is it just every one else that has to give up everything they have because racist people demand it? Hide or report this

[quote]If you're saying that I am benefiting from this system I'd like to know how.

The default color for Band-Aids is that pinkish tan that mimics the skin color of white people.

R276,

Way to miss the point. Trayvon Martin's killer identified as white--lots of Latinos do--hello Ted Cruz. And are accepted as such. The definition of "white" is flexible--as can be seen by the changing views of Greeks, Italians, Persians, etc.

As for the proof-of-white-fragility--well, the whole argument of that nitwit book is that whites won't discuss race. Sounds like that's exactly what's being discussed here.

But to be fair, I have known some people who would fit the white-fragility mold, but I've also met a number of Black people who are extremely uncomfortable acknowledging some of the issues in the Black community. I'd actually agree that slavery and racism led to a lot of the dysfunctionality in the ADOS subculture. However, I don't know that sense of victimization and inability to see very real gains (particularly among Black women who have achieved wage parity across the board with white women and increasing education levels) helps. There's very much a sense of learned helplessness that ignores those achievements and focuses on grievances to the exclusion of other things. The problem with that is that it makes Black achievement dependent on whites having particular attitudes. Fact is, that's not necessary--Jews, Japanese, African immigrants--other outsider groups don't ask for it as a precondition of success.

My great hope is that we'll finally get voter suppression under control so that ADOS politically dominate a state like Georgia and have that sense of power. And responsibility.

r279, 👏👏

Here's a video of white people sitting meekly and passively as a black woman calls them [bold]literally not humans and demons[/bold].

They sit quietly, paying attention as she informs them, among other things, that:

“All white people are racist” “White people are born into not being human” “Y’all are born into a life to not be human” “That’s what y’all are taught to do, to be demons”

Can you imagine a black person sitting quietly while a white person scolds on and on about how they are not even human, literally vile scum from birth, literally demons?

[quote]Way to miss the point. Trayvon Martin's killer identified as white

But he wasn't.

The news organizations rushed to identify him as white, and when corrected, reluctantly referred to him as a "white Hispanic," whatever the fuck that is. The whole thing went against their agenda that white people are stalking, hunting and murdering BIPOC, who are always tragic helpless childlike victims. So Zimmerman [italic]had[/italic] to be white.

R284, According to you. Latinos come in all colors, it's not race-specific. "White" doesn't have a scientific definition; it's a social construct.

Plenty of Latinos identify as white and look "white"--definitions change and "white" is a pretty flexible one. So is "Black" for that matter--which is why someone like Jessica Krug with zero African features passed throughout her academic career.

[quote]I'm sorry to break it to you [R273] but blacks will never be in charge of anything. It will be Asians if whites decline.

Poor racist r274, no one said anything about blacks but you. Thanks for outing yourself, even though you couldn't help yourself.

George Zimmerman was obviously Mestizo, no way did he look white.

r287 that's just the truth.

No, R276

You are a disgusting racist.

Blocked.

R277

Block the racist POS.

She is just a grievance studies moron.

R276, you've accepted a belief system, much like a religion or cult, to explain the problems that the black underclass faces in the US. Others haven't accepted that belief system and thus have differing views/explanations/solutions.

The concept of "white fragility" is legitimate and worthy of consideration, and much of the criticism here is leveled at the fact that it is becoming a massive and lucrative industry. Unfortunately, those criticisms are ignored and everyone focuses only on "the racism."

The worst are the "I see through you" and "I know exactly what you're doing" responses to legitimately benign posts, with no other evidence of trollery.

People love to accuse blacks of committing crimes against whites and other non-blacks, but government statistics show that the majority of victims of black criminals are OTHER BLACKS. Just like the majority of crimes against white people are by OTHER WHITES.

The only crime where whites are the majority against non-whites? FUCKING HATE CRIMES.

R288, lots of "white" people don't look white by DL's extreme standards, but, nonetheless, are counted as such--Kim Kardashian, Greeks, Turks, Persians, lots of people from around the Mediterranean with olive skin, dark hair and dark eyes..

So George Zimmerman has indigenuous American blood in him--so do lots of "white" people. And, of course, most American Blacks have European ancestry. Zimmerman looks white enough--certainly in Florida.

Racial categorizations have little to do with the actual variation in humans--they're social constructs that get very iffy around the edges of definition. The definition of "white" will change again--enough to absorb a few more people with some indigenous American ancestry, but some European features as well.

Many "white" North Americans have Black &/or Native ancestry.

I'd love to see these people who get upset at the colour of plasters. So I know what hysterical whiny bitches look like. White privilege (the kafka trap) is racially antagonising the majority white population and it makes the right look a whole lot more attractive. Did you read the book Freakonomics? It's about unintended consequences. In this case I'd love for an investigation into whether or not wokesters are the best republican propagandists to ever exist.

No, r296...not true 😉