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The Vow

Anyone watching this HBO doc series?

by Anonymousreply 600November 13, 2020 5:33 PM

Not out where I am for a few weeks, alas.

What I want to know is how the fuck Grace Park is still working.

by Anonymousreply 1August 27, 2020 1:06 AM

I watched the first two episodes and I'm hooked. It's the freakiest shit. I knew of the story, but to see how it all came about, how long it went on, and that this guy that got out recorded all his conversations is great.

by Anonymousreply 2September 1, 2020 3:48 AM

I think it's a bit slow (can't believe this is a 9 parter) but I guess they wanted to show how "normal" people get brainwashed into a cult.

What really made Keith Raniere special was he got Clare Bronfman under his spell. She had deep pockets and could bankroll everything, he had more money than similar cult leaders. He was trying to go full scientology but branding his sex slaves leaves behind easy evidence.

by Anonymousreply 3September 1, 2020 4:03 AM

I can't believe people were so gullible.

by Anonymousreply 4September 1, 2020 4:06 AM

And what was with kissing everyone on the mouth? Like really?

by Anonymousreply 5September 1, 2020 4:07 AM

It's a simple way to start grooming the woman r5 to your physical contact. Keith was a big sex addict.

by Anonymousreply 6September 1, 2020 4:12 AM

I hate that all the episodes aren't released at once.

Also, isn't the branding his initials?

by Anonymousreply 7September 1, 2020 12:14 PM

While some women were branded with a symbol that was just Keith's initials r7, a lot of women were branded with Keith's initials AND Allison Mack's initials.

by Anonymousreply 8September 1, 2020 12:34 PM

I’ve now seen the first three episodes and, wow, it is some freaky shit. Very similar to the kind of systematic brainwashing that is used in Scientology. One thing about it is their training that one should live their life in a way that makes one comfortable, for the reason that it shows you’re stretching yourself. But in reality, it conditioned them to ignore their inner warnings about what they were getting into.

by Anonymousreply 9September 6, 2020 9:49 PM

That rich bitch is still supporting him! I read it in the news the other day...did she even fuck the guy? Heard he couldn't even get hard!

by Anonymousreply 10September 6, 2020 9:51 PM

Reductive.

by Anonymousreply 11September 6, 2020 9:56 PM

Who here has had Nippy?

by Anonymousreply 12September 7, 2020 3:33 AM

It's really good. I agree the kissing the people on the lips. Creepy. And all the classes he made them do. Late night volleyball games. It took up their whole lives. Episode 3 talks about DOS. The women's group with the branding. Really sad. The whole Master and servant pyramid. It's so crazy because the people are quite intelligent. That they were duped by this douchebag.

by Anonymousreply 13September 7, 2020 3:45 AM

What's Allison Mack up to these days?

by Anonymousreply 14September 7, 2020 3:49 AM

Is it an black cast?

by Anonymousreply 15September 7, 2020 3:50 AM

Nippy is a former quarterback.

I bet he knows how to fuck.

by Anonymousreply 16September 7, 2020 2:51 PM

Why, every single time, are the majority of people in these cults failed actors?

by Anonymousreply 17September 8, 2020 4:10 AM

I think the actors,by nature of the type of people in that profession, are always looking for a way to be more successful- since their success is largely beyond their control. But these cults make them believe they can control their own success. In the acting profession, sometimes you really aren't right for the part, or don't have the right connections, or aren't sleeping with the right people.

by Anonymousreply 18September 8, 2020 4:43 AM

Very unpopular opinion forthcoming. Raniere was a freak and so was Mack but the women who joined in for the freakshow weren't any better. Mack is stupid and venal but so were these (adult ) woman who did Ranieres bidding. I am not interested in scapegoating Mac for behavior that multiple adults actively chose to engage in.

by Anonymousreply 19September 8, 2020 4:49 AM

Even if they’re both dumb for falling for this, I commend Marc and Sarah for their - what seems like - genuine remorse in recruiting others to the cult. They seem like they have a very genuine friendship, I wonder why they never dated.

by Anonymousreply 20September 8, 2020 4:55 AM

Cause I was in Star Wars...DUH!

by Anonymousreply 21September 8, 2020 5:36 AM

That Lauren bitch is completely psycho. Although I guess she's completely brainwashed because she was born into it. I feel extra sorry for her because her own mother got herself a nose job, but wouldn't even pay for her daughter to get one.

by Anonymousreply 22September 8, 2020 11:45 AM

What's Nancy and Lauren up to nowadays?

Or should I say Prefect and Master??

by Anonymousreply 23September 8, 2020 1:05 PM

Nancy is currently out on bond. Her daughter Lauren is currently on house arrest.

They are waiting to be sentenced. Right now basically everyone in NXIVM leadership has been found guilty and is waiting on their sentence.

by Anonymousreply 24September 8, 2020 3:55 PM

Somebody save me.....

by Anonymousreply 25September 8, 2020 6:04 PM

I wonder if any women have ever had the aha reality check right at the branding moment and just said fuck you psycho, you're not BRANDING me like a cow, and just left stark naked.

by Anonymousreply 26September 8, 2020 6:37 PM

RE why are actors more susceptible to cults.

My theory?

Many wannabe actors are really just uncomfortable being themselves and tell themselves that artistic satisfaction can only be discovered when they can become something they, intrinsically, are not. They are, therefore, identity searchers more than actors - but acting has a nice ring to it, so they simply take on that persona.

And, cults offer them the role of a lifetime - a brand new identity, with new rules, new rituals, new ways to succeed and even fail.

Or they're just drama whores and love the fucked up attention.

by Anonymousreply 27September 8, 2020 6:51 PM

I couldn't help but notice there were essentially no black people visible in the group shots r15. Looks like black people were not falling for this crap.

Also hearing Keith try to talk up the wonders of Albany, my sides!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 28September 9, 2020 12:04 AM

R28 That part made me laugh hard.

And then Nippy saying “I don’t want my kids raised in VANCOUVER” and desperately trying to get Sarah to move to Albany. True insanity.

by Anonymousreply 29September 9, 2020 12:26 AM

Kissing on the lips right when you meet someone and every time you see them? Really?? Who is okay with this shit?

by Anonymousreply 30September 9, 2020 12:31 AM

I'd kiss Nippy on the lips.

by Anonymousreply 31September 9, 2020 1:12 AM

Or fat people either. He put the women on strict diets. But his fat ass can barely play volleyball. So, I guess Keith is the only fat person allowed.

by Anonymousreply 32September 9, 2020 3:26 AM

I don't get why people flock to these "self-help" programs. I mean, everyone of them boils down to the same thing:

1. Strive to be your better self.

2. Believe in yourself.

3. Stop making excuses for your lack of success.

4. Don't give anything or anyone else power over your life.

Thank you. That will be $5000.

by Anonymousreply 33September 9, 2020 2:14 PM

I haven't watched yet and am curious if people feel like this is worth a 9 hour investment? The subject matter seems interesting, but does it really need that many hours to tell this story? The last HBO documentary I tried to watch was the McDonalds one, which was six hours long and should have been 90 minutes. I gave up after episode 3. Even Scientology only got a 2 hour movie.

by Anonymousreply 34September 9, 2020 4:57 PM

Was shocked to read in my independent research that Keith Raniere has 2 kids. The series is riveting and I can’t wait for the remaining episodes. When will HBO modernize and release all the episodes at once?

by Anonymousreply 35September 9, 2020 5:03 PM

Even other streaming platforms are moving away from that model r35. Amazon and Hulu are releasing more things on a weekly basis.

by Anonymousreply 36September 9, 2020 5:06 PM

(R34) it really is good. I watched the first three episodes. And I am really hooked. I got bored with the McDonald's one too. Atlanta child murders was really suspenseful. They give a lot of information that I never knew about.

by Anonymousreply 37September 10, 2020 3:26 AM

R34 - Agree with R37. I'm hooked completely after the first 3 episodes. This kind of religious/sex cult show is my catnip so it would have to be pretty shitty to bore me. I also loved Wild Wild Country which is (was?) on Netflix.

by Anonymousreply 38September 10, 2020 5:21 PM

Very good show. I don't know how anyone wouldn't figure out, "Oh, this is definitely a cult." within three minutes of the first meeting, what with the weird too-short stoles and the crazy lexicon, let alone until you get to the point where you are willing to be branded, treated like a literal slave, and offer up free blackmail material to keep you in line.

by Anonymousreply 39September 13, 2020 9:42 PM

They keep using the term "sex trafficking" on this show. Granted, certain women in NXIVM were groomed to be in a "slave" relationship with the leader and to have sex with him, but does this really fit the definition of "human trafficking?"

by Anonymousreply 40September 14, 2020 12:59 AM

^^Meant to say "sex trafficking"

by Anonymousreply 41September 14, 2020 1:00 AM

Actually I was right. NXIVM is accused of sex trafficking AND human trafficking. That's what I don't get.

by Anonymousreply 42September 14, 2020 1:02 AM

I think they're going to show a lot more of that stuff in episodes to come. I can't wait for the one tonight. They're going to show Catherine Oxenberg from Dynasty and her daughter.

by Anonymousreply 43September 14, 2020 1:07 AM

I watched the first four episodes today and I like it so far. I'm thinking buying Sarah's book.

by Anonymousreply 44September 14, 2020 3:09 AM

Wow. How many weak-willed people ARE there in the world?! How can you be so sure that there is some better life that you could be living that you can't accept the life you do have? And then, you come to the conclusion that the way to achieve that better life is to become a literal slave to another person. I can't imagine being that gullible and have NO level of self-confidence.

by Anonymousreply 45September 14, 2020 3:10 AM

Did we ever come to the conclusion that Allison was the Mack Daddy or the Daddy Mack?

I guess either way it is just Wiggida-wiggida-wiggida WHACK!

by Anonymousreply 46September 14, 2020 3:22 AM

I thought I was pretty smart and could follow basic intellectual ideas but 90% of the points thrown about by Keith and the sheep profiled on this show sound like word salad. I know cults use various techniques to rope in the weak, and they have know what to say to sell their shit but man, the spiels tonight were epic gibberish to my ears. Does any of that crap fly or am I missing their philosophy?

by Anonymousreply 47September 14, 2020 3:35 AM

So what happened to Kristen Kreuk?

by Anonymousreply 48September 14, 2020 3:38 AM

R48 She was in the CW's Beauty and the Beast show for a few years and is now on some Canadian legal drama show.

by Anonymousreply 49September 14, 2020 4:00 AM

Catherine Oxenberg seems unpleasant.

by Anonymousreply 50September 14, 2020 7:52 AM

R49, I meant in regards to her hasty exit from NXIVM.

by Anonymousreply 51September 14, 2020 9:59 AM

R47 he was spouting gibberish for the most part, especially in the clip of his first meeting with Allison Mack. She nodded as though he was revealing some deep truth and then cried — he broke her pretty quickly.

by Anonymousreply 52September 14, 2020 11:08 AM

The whole Master slave thing is so crazy. I slept in, so I'll fast the next day. Crazy low calorie diets. These girls were already thin. No periods and their hair falling out. Creepy.

by Anonymousreply 53September 14, 2020 1:01 PM

That love transcends a relationship crap Keith was spewing to "Jane" was such a load of bullshit! The reason he starves and sleep deprives these women is so they can't think straight and realize he doesn't make any sense. "Love becomes a morality." First of all asshole, love is an emotion, not a moral. And "a morality" doesn't make sense because morality isn't a noun.

by Anonymousreply 54September 14, 2020 1:10 PM

I’ve been watching this in horrified fascination and it really struck me during last night’s episode just how incoherent “super genius” Keith Raneire’s pronouncements were. Pure gibberish.

by Anonymousreply 55September 14, 2020 2:38 PM

R34 It's worth it.

Great documentary and I am hooked.

by Anonymousreply 56September 14, 2020 3:54 PM

^ you CAN stop watching anytime without being branded

by Anonymousreply 57September 14, 2020 3:54 PM

It boggles my mind that these nitwits want to belong SO BAD that they turn over blackmail material, spill their guts, go on diets, listen to crap ideas and get branded. None of those women thought to wonder why none of the men were sitting around naked and getting some initial burned into their skin?

by Anonymousreply 58September 14, 2020 4:20 PM

Jesus Christ!!!! I had no interest in this story even with the Allison Mack angle, which was a GOOD thing!!! I sat through the first episode and initially I kept saying (spoiler) Is this the same story I am thinking of?? Didn't this become some sex cult!!!???? WHAT THE FUCK.... At first the "program" or organization or whatever you want to call it had some good stuff.... They made up their own language but it was basically about the conscious and subconscious mind and mental blocks... Good stuff. I have follwed Dr. Joseph Murphy and everyone else and I am huge believer in this stuff... And then shit progresses- HOLY FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And its EXPERTLY done because they filmed SO MUCH footage for the organization and its like you are truly watching in real time.. I forgot this was HBO (I watch on Amazon and have an HBO subscription) so I binged through the episodes and just about died when I realized I had caught up with all the aired episodes!!! It appears there are 6-7 more!!!! One of the best documentaries I have ever seen and I still cannot fathom how this group turned into THIS!! I have had to stop myself from googling the higher ups because I am so anxious to see what became of them- especially that piece of SHIT daughter of the "Prefect"

by Anonymousreply 59September 14, 2020 10:13 PM

MARY r59!

[Quote]I have follwed Dr. Joseph Murphy and everyone else and I am huge believer in this stuff

Yep, of course you are.

by Anonymousreply 60September 14, 2020 10:26 PM

r60 cynicism won't make you happy

by Anonymousreply 61September 14, 2020 11:39 PM

I agree, this is one of the most fascinating docuseries I’ve seen in some time, precisely because they filmed and recorded SO much. You’re not watching talking heads the entire time recounting last events, it feels like it’s happening in front of you.

by Anonymousreply 62September 15, 2020 12:19 AM

Master, can I please have 25 calories for this piece of celery that fell behind my couch?

by Anonymousreply 63September 15, 2020 12:27 AM

The idea of someone collecting "collateral" disguised as confessing/releasing your demons/getting a psychological assessment is well understood by anyone familiar with things like Scientology, and now NXIVM. If someone is unaware of this manipulation, it's understandable that they could possibly be duped into it, especially if it's solicited by someone you've grown to really love and trust.

by Anonymousreply 64September 15, 2020 12:36 AM

Did Keith rip off some things from that weirdo cult that promoted starving and eating disorders? I can't remember the name, but Michelle Pfeiffer or Glenn Close (maybe both) were involved in it in the 80s or 90s?

by Anonymousreply 65September 15, 2020 3:12 AM

I don’t find Mark the film maker or Sarah the actress likable. Raniere looked like an asshat in his volleyball get up. Alison Mack meeting him was pure cringe.

by Anonymousreply 66September 15, 2020 10:39 AM

The Mark guy creeps me out more than the low rent midgit wannabe cult leader (seriously, the guy is maybe 5'6" max). Having all that insider footage is the key to the show working but something is off with Mark (anyone else think he pings??)

Also, Catherine Oxenberg comes off as kinda cunty though I would probably be too if my child fell into a not even Scientology cult. You have to be really D-list if even the Xenu crap looks credulous by comparison...

by Anonymousreply 67September 15, 2020 1:00 PM

Nippy is on the downlow sucking off guys in the steam room...

by Anonymousreply 68September 15, 2020 1:01 PM

Mark totally pings, but I think I like him and think he's genuine. Actress Sarah is just plain dumb. I actually like Nippy's fuck you attitude, but it should have come out A LOT earlier to say the least. Clearly Bonnie is the smartest of the bunch.

Keith is SKEEVY in that volleyball get up. It's so obvious he uses all that garbage talk just to get laid. 5'6" is being generous.

Also I wonder how he came up with volleyball? So random.

by Anonymousreply 69September 15, 2020 1:48 PM

I also like Mark and can’t believe he fell for this. He seems otherwise pretty normal. I agree that Bonnie is the smartest. I’m impressed that these two are still married after all of this.

by Anonymousreply 70September 15, 2020 2:38 PM

I'm shocked that Scientology didn't go after them guns blazing with lawyers riding hard because this is the most BLATANT $cieno "tech" ripoff ever. From the "sashes" which are basically bridge levels, the fancy jargon, the "titles" Prefect and Master which is basically "Auditor", - they even used the term Suppressive Person.

I don't even like Scientology but come on, at least be original. The only real difference between Raniere and Hubbard was Hubbard's end game was money, Raniere's end game was sex.

by Anonymousreply 71September 15, 2020 3:06 PM

R28, There were a few Black people involved in this. In the most recent episode, the female subject was brought by a "black urban farmer named Rachel". Also, one of the co-founders of Black Entertainment Television was an acolyte of Raniere's.

by Anonymousreply 72September 15, 2020 3:15 PM

R67 I have the same reaction to Mark. There seems to be something so hollow about him as a human being that made him such a good mark for a con man.

by Anonymousreply 73September 15, 2020 4:24 PM

Sarah doesn’t seem very bright but she does seem well-intentioned, and she had to be absolutely terrified for her son.

Agree that Bonnie, the first to realize something was wrong, seems like the smartest of the bunch.

by Anonymousreply 74September 16, 2020 2:59 PM

As soon as Bonnie was approached about DOS, she knew to run far away. That's a lot more than you can say about the other women.

With Mark while he was dumb enough to buy into Keith's psychobabble, the men were never asked sign a lifelong vow, give collateral, become a slave or get branded. The extent they were asked to buy into Keith's bullshit was a lot less.

by Anonymousreply 75September 16, 2020 3:08 PM

I don't think Sarah is "dumb" at all. In fact, she speaks eloquently and insightfully about it all. I was actually surprised by insight and level-headedness of all the victims who spoke out in this doc.

by Anonymousreply 76September 16, 2020 10:08 PM

Obsessed with this show. I think Mark and Sarah and Bonnie all come across as sensitive and intelligent people. Allison seems a bit sketchy so far—though I’ve gone down the rabbit hole and googled pretty much all things NEXIVM. In any case I’ve recommended this show to friends and in every case they’ve been hooked HARD.

by Anonymousreply 77September 16, 2020 10:43 PM

Wish HBO would drop all episodes of a series at once, particularly this one!

by Anonymousreply 78September 16, 2020 10:46 PM

R78 - I agree. I usually ignore an HBO series until all episodes have dropped so I can binge them. I got addicted to The Vow too early on so now I'm stuck waiting impatiently to watch each one. Contrary to what HBO marketing might believe, this once-a-week drop of episdoes seems to build irritation, not positive anticipation. It's an outdated model, the "one new episode a week" format. At least I don't have to deal with commercials!

by Anonymousreply 79September 16, 2020 11:01 PM

Mark said the visit to the Dalai Lama was a win?? Maybe it was the editing, but it didn't seem like it to me. He said Keith was like a Chinese communist, told Keith he needed to prove the allegations against him weren't true, and even Keith said that the Dalai Lama didn't want to hear any of his bullshit. Also didn't like his hair.

The Dalai Lama knew Keith was full of shit and a total fraud.

by Anonymousreply 80September 21, 2020 3:37 PM

R19 and R20 I believe the reason this was allowed to run so long was that it involved adults having sex and building themselves up until they didn't get the power and influence they wanted. What messed it up was Raniere blackmailing people who wanted to leave and get their private video and photos back, which is illegal. He also had contact with minors. Otherwise this just sounds like people in a business having sex with each other.

It is interesting to me that so many people saw skeletal white failed actors in a room and thought, "This is what success looks like. I'm in the right place." It was hard to feel sorry for them. I like to think most normal people who would see that and would be wondering how so many thin adults from one industry are attracted to this form of self-help.

I also wonder if some people turned into witnesses to avoid harder charges themselves. That is a common tactic for things that involve trafficking and conspiracy charges. If police need people to talk about those crimes, it makes sense to drop charges against those who will talk about one big target, Raniere.

Also, he has at least 2 kids. I wouldn't be surprised if they were abused somehow.

by Anonymousreply 81September 21, 2020 4:23 PM

I had dinner with Allison Mack several years ago (we have mutual friends). She was delightful and bubbly. and we shared a taxi from the UWS to Soho. Exchanged email addresses and I think emailed each other a couple of times. Often wondered if she would have tried to pull me into the cult had we furthered the relationship. Doubt I would have taken the bait. Went to an EST (remember EST?) introductory meeting once and ran out of there ASAP.

by Anonymousreply 82September 21, 2020 4:37 PM

"cults offer them the role of a lifetime - a brand new identity, with new rules, new rituals, new ways to succeed and even fail."

My limited experience with local actors/directors confirms this. Playing pretend and finding a way to control something is really attractive to them. Someone who wants to be a software engineer or copywriter just does;t have that mindset. They need to prove they can do the work or they can't.

by Anonymousreply 83September 21, 2020 4:48 PM

The bloat of this being a 9 episode series was apparent with this installment.

by Anonymousreply 84September 21, 2020 5:37 PM

Yes I was kind of bored this episode. We learned that the Dalai Lama didn't fall for Raniere's act and that The NY Times was stringing along Mark and Sarah and Co for a long time. So what.

Also I'm sick of seeing images of the branding. I get it already.

by Anonymousreply 85September 21, 2020 11:59 PM

I was too. It wasn't one of the better episodes.

by Anonymousreply 86September 22, 2020 12:08 AM

Thought the Dalai Lama scene was exquisitely painful.

by Anonymousreply 87September 22, 2020 1:20 AM

That dark-haired chick that was sitting beside him when he was talking to the Dalai Lama. With that joker smile on her face.

by Anonymousreply 88September 22, 2020 1:27 AM

R88 I can’t believe she basically groomed her daughter to fuck Keith.

by Anonymousreply 89September 22, 2020 3:42 AM

It is a fascinating series. I immediately thought of Scientology while watching. I've never been approached by a cult so I can't judge these people. The way I grew up I can't imagine joining such a cult, but maybe in my vulnerable stages it is possible they would have swayed me.

by Anonymousreply 90September 22, 2020 4:08 AM

What is the deal with actors and cults? Is it bored or gullible?

by Anonymousreply 91September 22, 2020 4:30 AM

Actors (famous/semi-famous) are boons for a cult. They are sought after and targeted. Enlightenment, connections, family, all promised.

by Anonymousreply 92September 22, 2020 5:38 AM

I think a lot of the famous acting gurus had/have a cult-like hold on some of their students.

by Anonymousreply 93September 22, 2020 2:23 PM

Actors tend to be very neurotic, insecure and focused on these personal improvement ideas. Easy for me to see how they were hoodwinked into this.

by Anonymousreply 94September 22, 2020 2:56 PM

R82? Are you a woman?

by Anonymousreply 95September 22, 2020 3:35 PM

Why volleyball? I think: team building game, year-round availability, and when playing volleyball one is almost always looking upwards.

by Anonymousreply 96September 23, 2020 5:51 AM

What do Mark and Bonnie and Sarah and husband live on post-cult? They don’t seem to have jobs. Is this ever addressed?

by Anonymousreply 97September 23, 2020 7:11 PM

Interview with Sarah and Nippy.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 98September 24, 2020 7:16 PM

I've just seen Episode 2. I've always thought with regards to cults that if the brainwashed put half the effort into their careers and hobbies and relationships than they do at their cults, they'd be really successful people.

by Anonymousreply 99September 28, 2020 2:21 PM

{quote]What do Mark and Bonnie and Sarah and husband live on post-cult?

Sarah has a nice apartment in Vancouver. Vancouver isn't cheap.

by Anonymousreply 100September 28, 2020 2:25 PM

R100 - it's like the anti-Scientology industry that Lisa Reamini and others heads up. They get paid to produce and be interviewed in these types of programs. Or get paid for the books they write.

There's almost a buisiness case for getting involved in a cult and then getting out so you can get paid for interviews, books, etc.

by Anonymousreply 101September 28, 2020 2:42 PM

Last night's was boring.

I may be done with this.

by Anonymousreply 102September 28, 2020 2:45 PM

The latest ep was more interesting than the prior one at least. I agreed with the person who told Barbara that Keith was just using her, and once he had the Bronfmans he didn't need her anymore.

I would say Barbara didn't cause enough of a fuss when she left, but I guess the only thing she had was that Keith was sleeping around a lot. Without the slave/branding angle the media wouldn't have cared.

by Anonymousreply 103September 28, 2020 2:47 PM

I'm struggling to get through the first episode. It's so boring.

by Anonymousreply 104September 28, 2020 3:05 PM

Where the hell is Nancy? She has barely been mentioned since Sarah made fun of her eyebrows in the first episode, before realizing she was a hypnotic genius. Was she having sex with him too? What is her story? I haven’t looked into it because I am waiting to see what the show wants to reveal first, but I might have missed any other info. The timeline presented is kind of all over the place and the stories are slowly being metered out with not a lot of order.

Rainere and Co. are gross but I wish Mark and Sarah were more open about what they ignored and why. They want to appear as in the dark about so much but at the same time Mark was filming Keith for years. In the most recent episode he breezes by why the lawsuits and negative media attention in 2012 wasn’t too big of a red flag for him. These guys were in on the grift too, to an extent. Just not the sex. I keep thinking that if Sarah had been approached to have sex with Keith, before marrying the sexy Nippy, then she might still be in right now. She sounded more disappointed than grossed out or outraged as she found out that Keith had sex with so many women around her and not her. It is kind of puzzling that he never tried to fuck her.

Bonnie and Nippy are the angels here.

by Anonymousreply 105September 28, 2020 3:24 PM

Nancy was having sex with Keith. He was absolutely militant about his sex slaves not having relations with other men. He froze Lauren out after she flirted with a guy at volleyball and she had no relationships other than the one she had with him. She desperately wanted a child and he strung her along only to have a kid with someone else.

Her mother is pure evil

by Anonymousreply 106September 28, 2020 4:22 PM

I'm sure Nancy was sleeping with Keith at some point. As we see, Keith was sleeping with all the women around him and he quickly got upset if a woman wouldn't have sex with him.

by Anonymousreply 107September 28, 2020 4:39 PM

Keith grosses me out. He just looks out of shape and like he'd be awful in the sack. And, honestly, if you saw him, wouldn't you assume he was one of us, minus the wit? I would not think, "There's a hetero pussy hound." When they cut to the videos where women are feeding him or stroking his ego, I just want to scream at them to get some self respect and a man who works out at least once a decade. And that fucking Jesus hair! Run a fucking comb through it; you're meeting the Dali Lhama!

by Anonymousreply 108September 28, 2020 6:54 PM

What is really sick is Nancy then seemed okay with Keith using her daughter sexually

by Anonymousreply 109September 29, 2020 12:01 AM

And may have slept with him herself!

by Anonymousreply 110September 29, 2020 2:21 AM

Bonnie is the smartest of this bunch.

by Anonymousreply 111September 29, 2020 3:48 AM

“I need more data Boo”

Bonnie should have left Mark. I don’t like Mark or Sarah.

by Anonymousreply 112September 29, 2020 4:13 AM

Bonnie is 18 years younger than Mark. I know she was a struggling singer actress but she should have picked someone more age appropriate.

by Anonymousreply 113September 29, 2020 9:51 AM

Rumors that Keith poisoned the love of his life to get her money

by Anonymousreply 114September 29, 2020 10:49 AM

I'm disappointed in the Dalai Lama. He should have known better.

I also don't like how the documentary completely switched to Mark and Sarah and Co. going after NVIXM. I would still like to hear them interviewed about things like that Dalai Lama visit. I don't need to see Sarah's kids screaming and crying for her while she's too busy to comfort them and Nippy comes to the rescue.

by Anonymousreply 115September 29, 2020 1:15 PM

I want Nippy to come to [bold]my[/bold] rescue.

by Anonymousreply 116September 29, 2020 6:59 PM

You just know all the entertainment adjacent people in this cult laughed at Scientologists for being so gullible.

by Anonymousreply 117September 29, 2020 7:20 PM

I want Nippy to cum in my mouth.

by Anonymousreply 118September 29, 2020 9:41 PM

Sarah is right about that Times expose: they didn't provide any context about the years-long indoctrination of these members, and how the bad stuff was slowly introduced. They made it seem like these people joined and agreed to be branded the next day.

by Anonymousreply 119September 29, 2020 9:45 PM

Sarah being so concerned about her self image and that she looked easily manipulated was missing the point. The NYTimes publishing this story is what turned everything around and led to the fall of Keith. It was a piece meant to grab everyone's attention.

by Anonymousreply 120September 29, 2020 10:20 PM

Sarah thought she was going to be famous with the #metoo movement, I still think if she had been sleeping with Keith she would still be in the cult. She is pissed Keith didn’t hit on her.

by Anonymousreply 121September 29, 2020 10:49 PM

I would agree that she was clearly offended Keith was sleeping with so many women around her but didn't make a move on her.

by Anonymousreply 122September 29, 2020 10:53 PM

They’re stretching this shit out.

I’m also not buying Sarah’s pure motivations either. She was a little too excited to find herself on the front page of the New York Times.

You can tell Bonnie doesn’t think much of her.

by Anonymousreply 123September 29, 2020 11:38 PM

Yes. I am truly soaking up this documentary. So far they’ve done a really good job with it. But I highly recommend you have knowledge of the people involved, the case, and NXIVM beforehand because I think The Vow is more about the details and inside dialogue. I’ve heard people say they can’t get into it. Highly recommend listening to the podcast or diving into some articles first.

I was surprised to see Grace Park was involved.

by Anonymousreply 124September 29, 2020 11:50 PM

R67 Mark Vicente's first cult wans't NXIVM! He was in the Ramtha School of Enlightenment prior to joining. (See attached article!)

Re: Sarah being upset that Keith didn't want to sleep with her. I'm SURE he would have if she moved to Albany. I can't recall if it was stated in an earlier episode or in the Escaping NXIVM podcast, that's the impression I've got from everything I've read about the cult.

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by Anonymousreply 125September 30, 2020 2:40 AM

It’s a reach to suggest Sarah was pissed that Keith didn’t try to fuck her.

by Anonymousreply 126September 30, 2020 7:03 AM

Yes r20, but it would have been much more immediately effective if NYT had written a more thoughtful piece which didn't open the victims up to public ridicule and doubt. It was a thin, short piece that focused on the salacious details. NXIVM pulls people in with (in my opinion) effective and transformative truths. The members aren't in a trance, they're not pathetic, they are happy because the ideas they are learning work and they have a community. BUT Raniere perverted all this to eventually abuse, exploit and control people. He groomed these women, some for years, before they woke up or were forced to wake up. This show, although the story is realllllly dragged out, tells the story in the way the NYT should have done.

by Anonymousreply 127September 30, 2020 8:12 AM

Which is the best podcast on the whole NXIVM thing?

by Anonymousreply 128September 30, 2020 9:02 AM

Haven’t read this thread too carefully as I didn’t follow the whole NXIVM thing that closely when it was happening, except I think an article in the New Yorker and the times updates, so watching the eps Weekly feels a bit like a mystery almost. (I’m two eps behind I think, and watch it once a week.)

But am I the only one to think Raniere cleans up very nicely?

He was so smart and charismatic, why the fuck did he have to engage in sex trafficking? It’s so ludicrous. All of that thought put into self development, apparently with considerable dividends, and it’s all thrown away on a glorified prostitution ring?

by Anonymousreply 129October 1, 2020 12:47 AM

Clare Bronfman was sentenced to over 6 years. Doesn't look good for Raniere and Mack's sentencing.

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by Anonymousreply 130October 1, 2020 1:10 AM

[quote]He was so smart and charismatic, why the fuck did he have to engage in sex trafficking? It’s so ludicrous.

Because he's a sick fuck who wanted a harem, dummy. He's not a normal straight guy who is happy dating a bunch of chicks or getting married to the girls of his dreams.

by Anonymousreply 131October 1, 2020 1:35 AM

Damn r130! That is a surprisingly stiff sentence. That judge is not fucking around, serves her right.

And you are right, now everybody else waiting to be sentenced is trembling

by Anonymousreply 132October 1, 2020 1:46 AM

I have to admit, I think the entire Human Potential Movement (all associated cults/theories/etc.) is fascinating. It strikes me as 100% deluded to believe that there's "untapped" potential within us to become these PERFECT beings. Not that we can't improve individually and do better than we did yesterday, or last year. On one hand some of the proponents had generally good influence (Carl Rogers, Viola Spolin, etc.), but there's so much toxic shit associated with it via nutters like this. It reminds me of a secular version of "prosperity gospel" sometimes.

But honestly, how can people believe in any of these enlightened gurus? What the fuck were they actually doing to make the planet a better place? Fucking sex slaves, most likely. An IQ of 240? My sides.

by Anonymousreply 133October 1, 2020 3:10 AM

"I'm disappointed in the Dalai Lama. He should have known better."

Am I the only one who thinks that the Dalai Lama is also a fraud?

by Anonymousreply 134October 2, 2020 4:50 PM

The fascinating thing about many cults is that the male leaders truly hate women and are not even hiding that. Nevertheless, they have no problem finding and recruiting women who ignore the misogyny and are willing to do everything for them. Branding other women and referring to them as slaves? Where is your self-respect, ladies?

by Anonymousreply 135October 2, 2020 4:57 PM

R134 I have a major distrust of Buddhism

by Anonymousreply 136October 2, 2020 4:59 PM

They are trying to send this guy away for life. I don't think he deserves to be imprisoned for life. Anyone else think the prosecution is going overboard?

by Anonymousreply 137October 2, 2020 5:02 PM

R134 - I agree with you. There's something off about him. I've always found his guru/hero status suspect.

by Anonymousreply 138October 2, 2020 5:03 PM

R134 Do we have Chinese trolls here now?

by Anonymousreply 139October 3, 2020 3:36 AM

I don’t trust Mark and Nippy. They’re MRAs and are probably in the Red Pill subreddit this very moment.

[quote] The Society of Protectors is a subgroup within Nxivm, made up of Nxivm males (it is not right to call them men) who follow the wisdom and the teachings of the Vanguard – on how men should behave with women.

[quote] Some of the principle teachings of SOP was that men are naturally polygamous and women naturally monogamous – and that women should accept this wondrous gender difference and celebrate it – that a man should have multiple sex partners – that it is natural and biologically right.

[quote] While the woman must- it is imperative – be faithful to only her man.

[quote] Another teaching is that women are spoiled; pampered princesses and that men take all the hard blows in the world while women skate by claiming to be victims when they have all the advantages.

[quote] Yet another teaching – promulgated by the Vanguard himself – he practiced what he preached – is that if a man ejaculates on a women – he has marked her as his own [much like a dog spraying.]

[quote] The woman so marked then belongs to the man gracious enough to provide his ejaculate upon her.

[quote] (I have, thanks to a former SOP student, a secret recording of Keith Raniere giving the entire secret SOP curriculum – it is something like 8 hours of the Vanguard teachings for men. I once tried to post it on Youtube.com but Keith filed a copyright infringement claim and Youtube deleted my recording. Happily I have ample backup copies. In fact, through an attorney, I provided a copy to law enforcement for their delectation and edification.)

[quote] Yes, it was quite an attractive philosophy for followers of Raniere, for it seemed to give them permission to be mini-Vanguards and their women were deemed most selfish indeed if they: A. Objected to their man’s philandering or B. Philandered themselves.

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by Anonymousreply 140October 5, 2020 3:09 AM

Catherine Oxenberg and Mark Vincente both annoy me, but for different reasons. I understand that Catherine is desperate to get her daughter out of that cult, but does every scene with her have to show her furiously typing away on her laptop or arguing with someone over the phone? ENOUGH. Mark Vincente just seems fake as hell. His filmmaking career failed and he's trying to use this as his chance to become a famous filmmaker, I think. How long until he joins his next cult?

The documentary is best when it doesn't focus on Catherine, Mark, Sarah, etc. It's fascinating to hear from women like Toni Natalie and the other woman who successfully defended herself against NXIVM (she ran the Seattle location? I can't recall her name).

It's a bit conspiracy theorist of me to wonder if someone like Mark left the cult for more fame, but... he is a serial cultist.

by Anonymousreply 141October 5, 2020 4:37 AM

Catherine Oxenberg also has a cultist history. She admitted she used to (?) be into gurus and this was imprinted onto India as a kid. Turns out she took ESP classes for 2 years and that's how India got involved in the first place, she brought her to a class. This was in tonight's episode.

by Anonymousreply 142October 5, 2020 5:31 AM

I’ve been watching it but the timelines are all fucked up. Makes it almost unwatchable. I don’t like it too much now.

by Anonymousreply 143October 5, 2020 7:08 AM

I loved it when Catherine called her mother to get her to contact Prince Charles to get in touch with the Dalai Lama. She has aged well. Whatever work she's had, was expert.

by Anonymousreply 144October 5, 2020 12:18 PM

I'd rather Karen Cellini had played the role of Catherine Oxenberg in this.

by Anonymousreply 145October 5, 2020 1:21 PM

Catherine Oxenberg’s tragic nose job SCREAMS early 80s

by Anonymousreply 146October 5, 2020 2:25 PM

Do they tell us what "damage" the filmmaker caused? I agree there's something off about him.

by Anonymousreply 147October 5, 2020 3:06 PM

Is Keith a Little Person?

by Anonymousreply 148October 5, 2020 3:17 PM

Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia sounds like a hoot. I didn't know Catherine was married to briefly to Robert Evans (annulled) and then Casper Van Dien (divorced)...

by Anonymousreply 149October 5, 2020 7:40 PM

Has anyone seen the NXIVM Lifetime movie based on Catherine Oxenberg's book? Peter Facinelli plays Keith. Talk about an upgrade.

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by Anonymousreply 150October 5, 2020 9:10 PM

Why doesn't Mark have a South African accent?

by Anonymousreply 151October 5, 2020 11:05 PM

Have you heard a South African accent, r151?

by Anonymousreply 152October 6, 2020 1:49 AM

I'm sick of looking at Keith's overbite. He is a vile dwarf.

by Anonymousreply 153October 6, 2020 4:20 AM

lol r151, yes, but he's supposedly South African so...where is it? He's not an actor who would have reason to train it out of himself and he lived in S.A. through at least the end of his teens. I'm suspicious that he joined this group knowing it was trash and with the intent of making a doc exposing them. I, also, think something is way off with Nippy and that he was involved in some gross shit within the group that he's not admitting to. And why wouldn't Keith have tried to fuck Sarah? How are all these people so gullible?

by Anonymousreply 154October 6, 2020 4:26 AM

Another question - How did Keith cure that guy's Tourette's or was that a lie?

by Anonymousreply 155October 6, 2020 5:25 AM

This 2 part doc apparently gives more in-depth info about some of the players who are glossed over in The Vow, including Pam Cafritz who was Raniere's version of a Ghislane Maxwell.

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by Anonymousreply 156October 6, 2020 6:18 AM

[quote] I, also, think something is way off with Nippy and that he was involved in some gross shit within the group that he's not admitting to. And why wouldn't Keith have tried to fuck Sarah? How are all these people so gullible?

Sarah had emotional needs that she wanted filled and thought that DOS could do it, but she sooner realised it couldn’t. After she was branded it became apparent that Nippy has not seen her naked for some time. Maybe not uncommon for a mother of a young kid. Maybe not uncommon for the wife of a man who led Society Of Protectors.

Sarah freaked out about the brand and the collateral after she heard slaves were fucking Keith and it is clear that is the endgame. Lauren tried to convince her that her devotion to her her master was more important than her relationship with her husband. Sarah wasn’t having it - she was married to significantly attractive man, and had nothing to gain from sleeping with Keith.

I don’t think Sarah was ultimately that good of a mark, pun totally intended.

by Anonymousreply 157October 6, 2020 7:35 AM

I can't believe that little troll found dozens of women willing to be in the same room with him, much less fuck and be his sex slaves. He's so disgusting. Why did Nancy fall into this bullshit?

by Anonymousreply 158October 6, 2020 7:57 AM

See Jim Jones, Rupert Murdoch, Donald Trump

by Anonymousreply 159October 6, 2020 1:14 PM

This Mark weirdo can’t pronounce the word “women”. He pronounces “women” the same as “woman”. Was it part of SOP to not recognize the plural of adult human female? What’s wrong with this bozo?

by Anonymousreply 160October 6, 2020 2:03 PM

R160 Like most incels, they prefer "female" to "women" as it dehumanizes women.

With regards to his South Eeeefrican eccent, from his website: [quote]Mark Vicente was born in Johannesburg, South Africa in 1965. With a father in Radio and a mother in the Diplomatic Service, he rarely stayed in one place for very long. As a child he traveled the world and lived in such diverse places as Portugal, Brazil, Canada, and the US.

Sounds like he travelled around as a child and might not have been in South Africa long enough to get an accent.

by Anonymousreply 161October 6, 2020 3:15 PM

You can hear his accent every so often, actually. He speaks typical American style English for the most part, but occasionally you will hear a trace of a South African accent creep in.

by Anonymousreply 162October 7, 2020 12:13 AM

He looks like such an ugly nerd. It's crazy to me that these women hanged on his every word. What was the deal with the women starving themselves?

by Anonymousreply 163October 7, 2020 1:45 AM

R163 He probably wanted to fuck skinny women, BUT I also think it was less about weight-loss and more about general depravation and maintaining control. If you get 3 hours of sleep (interrupted by your slave master sending texts) and 400 calories in a day, I'm sure you'd agree to a lot of shit you wouldn't under normal circumstances

by Anonymousreply 164October 7, 2020 1:56 AM

He also preferred a full bush. The DOS women had to grow in their pubic hair.

by Anonymousreply 165October 7, 2020 2:07 AM

I'm hoping in one of the next episodes they talk more about Allison Mack. How she got so sucked in.

by Anonymousreply 166October 7, 2020 4:08 AM

The documentary that R156 linked to is interesting. You really get a sense of the depravity of Nxivm, especially DOS. What is strange is with all of Mark's filming the group you, or maybe I was not paying attention, don't see the starving women. These people, Sarah, Mark and Bonnie had to see the starving women, yet I haven't heard them talk about it.

by Anonymousreply 167October 7, 2020 2:43 PM

Keith R reminds me of a folky acoustic guitar dude from the 70s, like one of the guys from the band America...EXCEPT for when he wears his sporty sweatband for volleyball.

by Anonymousreply 168October 7, 2020 3:13 PM

It cracks me up that NXIVM cult members had such lame activities -- a cappella and volleyball.

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by Anonymousreply 169October 8, 2020 12:13 AM

(R169) don't forget the summer camp. Which I'm sure they paid quite a bit to go.

by Anonymousreply 170October 8, 2020 12:51 AM

This is what happens to wealthy, attractive white women with no self esteem or real sense of purpose in life. If I were India, I would be out living like a royal, not starving myself for some perv. Unless there is some underage component, this is all feels fairly consensual, maybe a bit predatory. I'm hoping to see some kind of major bombshell in the next 2 episodes. I haven;t done a deep dive yet so all my info right now is coming from the show.

by Anonymousreply 171October 8, 2020 4:19 AM

Apparently, in prison, the other inmates keep breaking his glasses, shitting in his shoes and calling him 'Cry Baby Rose'.

by Anonymousreply 172October 8, 2020 4:23 AM

[quote]This Mark weirdo can’t pronounce the word “women”. He pronounces “women” the same as “woman”.

I'll have to watch it and pay attention. I wonder if he spent part of his childhood in NZ as we have a tendency to do the same thing. The short i sound in women becomes a clipped schwa and both words end up sounding the same.

South Africans definitely don't do it, so it can't be that.

by Anonymousreply 173October 8, 2020 5:55 AM

R173, it’s the O he pronounces wrong.

by Anonymousreply 174October 8, 2020 6:04 AM

Isn't the o in 'women' is pronounced i?

[quote]This Mark weirdo can’t pronounce the word “women”.

by Anonymousreply 175October 8, 2020 6:08 AM

Yeah, women = wih-men and woman = woh-man, but he pronounces both as woh-man.

by Anonymousreply 176October 8, 2020 6:12 AM

I can see where I wasn't clear. The o in women, which the rest of the world pronounces as an i, is a barely pronounced schwa in New Zealand, making it basically the same same sound as the o in woman....which we also don't want to fully pronounce.

The o in each word, to us, even though they're two distinct sounds everywhere else in the world, is sort of a swallowed 'uh' sound.

In any case, I just googled him and didn't see anything about NZ so I have no idea what his problem is. I only know what mine is.

by Anonymousreply 177October 8, 2020 6:26 AM

As an American, I think it is very obvious that Mark has an accent. I don’t know if I would pin it down as South African right away, but the way he says certain words is a dead giveaway.

by Anonymousreply 178October 9, 2020 1:52 AM

[quote] ([R169]) don't forget the summer camp. Which I'm sure they paid quite a bit to go.

It attracts a certain kind of person doesn’t it. Most people groan silently at when Steve turns up to ruin another party with his acoustic guitar, but the Nxvim victims are into that shit. Summer camp for adults seems like a certain circle of hell.

Not surprising there are so many lapsed Jews in the sad-help/cult/MLM games. When your nominal faith/ethnicity/background promotes a close knit community, it’s no surprise they will go seeking the same in their “chosen families” in secular formats as adults.

by Anonymousreply 179October 11, 2020 6:50 PM

Collateral. Branding. This is sick.

And predictable. Humans fall for it, over and over.

by Anonymousreply 180October 11, 2020 10:25 PM

This text exchange with a Mexican illegal immigrant Keith slept with and took nude photos of when she was 15 was read in court, with Raniere sitting there in front of the jury and the judge.

KEITH: Why haven’t you insisted on swallowing me [Raniere’s semen] since you did so with R [Robbie]? I can’t keep calling you. I want you to force yourself to stay connected.

CAMI: I haven’t wanted it. I’ve been intimate with you without pushing me away. That’s big.

KEITH: That’s the worst news of all. His sperm and DNA should be disgusting and invasive. You should have wanted to do anything to love mine [semen], to try to save what is left of a connection. Do you like his fluid more than mine?

CAMI: Right now, neither.

KEITH: Did you ever prefer his taste, etc., over mine?

CAMI: Why do you want me to answer that?

KEITH: Please don’t question me like this anymore. I can’t tell you the reasons. Please answer.

CAMI: If I didn’t, I wouldn’t have chosen to be with him.

KEITH: You chose to be with him because you liked the taste of his semen better?????

CAMI: No.

KEITH: Then what do you mean?

CAMI: But if I disliked it, I would have avoided it.

KEITH: I asked specifically about taste. Did you specifically mention to him you liked it??

CAMI: I can’t remember.

KEITH: I need you to.

CAMI: Probably.

KEITH: What did you like?

CAMI: Seriously? I’m hesitant to share this with you.

KEITH: I need everything. This is explicitly in the letter I wrote. For me to do anything more with you, I need to know you want to tell me all.

CAMI: Does that mean you accepted the vow?

KEITH: No. You keep giving me reasons not to. I keep telling you what I need that is different. Did you like his taste better than mine?

CAMI: I wish I didn’t have to answer this. Yes.

KEITH: The wish thing hurts us. What did you like better?

CAMI: Taste, consistency, quantity, intensity [of Robbie’s semen].

KEITH: What about each of these things?

CAMI: Taste; he is mild and sweet. Consistency; not too concentrated. Quantity; small amount. Intensity; strong release speed. I am sorry you had to hear that.

KEITH: He is shorter and thinner penis-wise?

CAMI: Longer, but thinner.

KEITH: Is he longer when I’m fully hard?

CAMI: Probably about same.

KEITH: Did he hit the back of you? [when Robbie and Cami had intercourse]

CAMI: ?

KEITH: Last spring?

CAMI: Oh, I can’t remember.

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by Anonymousreply 181October 11, 2020 10:34 PM

CAMI: Oh, I can’t remember.

KEITH: I am examining perception. I know his penis is 6.75 fully erect and mine is 7.5, so I am looking at how you are slanting things.

CAMI: What the fuck? How do you know that?

KEITH: Likewise with intensity. You forget our passionate times and compare our day-to-day [sex] and in the last year I’ve been heartbroken and could barely function [because of Cami having sex with Robbie. Keep in mind Keith is having sex with a dozen or more women.]

CAMI: Why does this matter?

KEITH: Maybe someday I’ll tell you, but guys know these things about each other.

CAMI: How?

KEITH: Later.

CAMI: I thought men did share these things.

KEITH: … Men masturbate together.

CAMI: No way. Have you masturbated with him?

KEITH: They don’t share about their women, but themselves is different.

CAMI: Have you seen his penis?

KEITH: His is definitely not the width or length of mine. How are you going to fix this lie? [that Robbie’’s penis is as big when fully erect as Keith].

CAMI: You haven’t been at your fullest in a long time. It isn’t a lie. [Classic answer.]

KEITH: That is the problem. Your whole memory of him is a lie. The time before last I was easily longer than him. I kept hitting the back of you, remember? You came twice.

CAMI: How can I forget? But you were hitting the tender spots on the sides. I never cum because you hit the back. That has never been the case.

KEITH: It is highly doubtful he [Robbie’s semen] was even close to as sweet. I actually have a very strong basis for that. Mild maybe. Less volume definitely, but you put less volume as a plus. It is always a minus because I can put the rest elsewhere [with another woman]. No, most people don’t cum because of the back, I was just pointing out I was 7.5 that morning.

CAMI: To be honest, this isn’t that important to me. You’re bigger and better in every way, I’m sure of it.

KEITH: I don’t believe you’re sure of it, but the taste has a special significance. All of these things can be altered: Length, width, intensity, taste, even to some degree volume. But there is an important factor in taste that is essential and that you have increased that sex so much and still protect the lie. I can challenge the lie on measurables, but not the measurables that you must do. This is mostly measurable because if the lie you created real passion — because of real passion you grossly exaggerated the experience [with Robbie]. How are you going to fix that?…

CAMI: I don’t care who’s better or bigger. You do. Take it, hon. And yes, I am sure that you are superior.

KEITH: What do you mean, take it?

CAMI: The crown. The official title. I will attest to that.

by Anonymousreply 182October 11, 2020 10:34 PM

EWWWW

by Anonymousreply 183October 11, 2020 10:36 PM

[quote]I have to admit, I think the entire Human Potential Movement (all associated cults/theories/etc.) is fascinating. It strikes me as 100% deluded to believe that there's "untapped" potential within us to become these PERFECT beings.

I think the Protestant American obsession with purity (from the Puritans onwards) makes them ripe for the picking.

Catholics and Jews are used to living with guilt and sin. The fundamentals of Abrahamic faith is that after you are truly sorry and if you atone, God forgives. Which is why drinking and smoking and dancing and the Devil's music and some light adultery and pre-marital sex aren't really dealbreakers. It's why the Italians and French are culturally so different.

by Anonymousreply 184October 11, 2020 10:52 PM

R184 I think you have a point with that! Reminds me of the quotation: ""Have no fear of perfection You'll never reach it" - Salvador Dalí

I can't deal with Keith going on and on about making the world a better place, what good did NXVIM do in the world? Host a cappella competitions? At least the rajneeshees looked like they had a good time!

Imagine, if Keith had discovered the internet before getting into MLMs/cult leadership. He could have just been a run-of-the-mill incel on Reddit, but here we are. His reductive views about men and women were chilling to hear. He hates women because your dad wouldn't let you hit one when they took away your pail? Oh boy, the scene of Keith and the other cult members trying to "science" in his living room, my sides!!! 🤣 😂 🤣 😂

Mark is going to join another cult, I bet. He just has that "type" of personality. Ugh, a "seeker."

by Anonymousreply 185October 12, 2020 5:43 AM

This episode lost me as far as women buying into the cult shit. Did none of these people see through the absolute bullshit he was spewing to the women and the men during these sessions? I would like to see interviews with anyone that left and/or just said no thanks, this isn't for me anymore, after a few of these sessions. Come on, none of them had the sense to go home and say to themselves ummm I didn't grow up having this experience that he's describing at all, so I'm not going back tomorrow.

by Anonymousreply 186October 12, 2020 3:59 PM

R185, Mark was in a cult called Ramtha's School of Enlightenment before NXIVM.

by Anonymousreply 187October 12, 2020 4:45 PM

R187 I know, that's precisely why I think he'll join a third cult!

by Anonymousreply 188October 12, 2020 4:52 PM

Mark Vicente i creepy even without this cult stuff. He married a woman old enough to be his daughter.

by Anonymousreply 189October 12, 2020 6:40 PM

*young

by Anonymousreply 190October 12, 2020 6:41 PM

He married her because she was in Star Wars.

by Anonymousreply 191October 12, 2020 7:15 PM

He for sure will, R187. He would still be steeped in NXIVM had Bonnie not run for her life.

by Anonymousreply 192October 12, 2020 7:37 PM

There is no more punchable face on earth than Keith's.

by Anonymousreply 193October 12, 2020 9:18 PM

Bonnie is the only redeemable one among the apostates.

by Anonymousreply 194October 12, 2020 9:27 PM

R194, I think we’d all hate her as much as the rest of them if she talked more.

by Anonymousreply 195October 12, 2020 9:45 PM

You'd be right , R33, but you leave out that these people were in a LOT of psychic pain before they found this cult. No one gets in a cult just to "do better." They were trying to fix themselves and not become alcohol/drug abusers. They were in pain.

Imo.

by Anonymousreply 196October 12, 2020 10:28 PM

Mark! Mark! Over here!

by Anonymousreply 197October 12, 2020 11:02 PM

No, no! Mark! Over HERE!

by Anonymousreply 198October 12, 2020 11:03 PM

Screw them! Mark! Mark! Over here!

by Anonymousreply 199October 12, 2020 11:03 PM

Ohhhh, I just visited Mark’s IMDb and he directed What The Bleep Do We Know and that explains soooo much.

I was made to watch that with my ex. He said it would “change my life”. I dumped him a week later.

by Anonymousreply 200October 13, 2020 12:31 AM

And on that note, on the CBC podcast on NXIVM made by one of Sarah’s childhood friends, Keith presented one of his rich girlfriends by presenting her with a copy of Atlas Shrugged and told her “you’re my Dagny Taggart”. You couldn’t make this up.

by Anonymousreply 201October 13, 2020 12:34 AM

Who is Robbie that had the sweet semen? I've watched every episode - is he featured on the show. It's kind of hot that the men j/o together.

by Anonymousreply 202October 13, 2020 1:42 AM

It is hard to sympathize with any of these people because they were all so stupid that they were in a cult and did amazingly stupid things when told to. Gullibility is not an attractive attribute.

by Anonymousreply 203October 13, 2020 3:10 AM

These grown adults and not really young adults like some of the poor kids stuck in Scientology. The members are basically late 20's/early 30's washed up actresses or entertainment professionals disillusioned with life.

by Anonymousreply 204October 13, 2020 4:23 AM

R196, everyone has pain. We’re not all joining cults and taking slaves.

by Anonymousreply 205October 13, 2020 12:02 PM

The branding. I just can't get over the branding. Sex slave isn't bad enough — you're willing to be branded?

by Anonymousreply 206October 13, 2020 1:58 PM

I was reading comment elsewhere about the show and one of the commenters said something that struck me. Initially, in the NXIVM training program (so ESP), Keith's teachings pretty much tell people that you have control over EVERYTHING in your life. Your emotions are YOUR fault for letting yourself feel that way. However, in tonight's episode... Keith blames everything on WOMEN and SOCIETY!!!! Men are fucked up because of women and society, not because of THEIR OWN FEELINGS THAT THEY SHOULD CONTROL.

by Anonymousreply 207October 13, 2020 2:22 PM

R194 People on Reddit are upset with her because she does "intuitive tarot readings" for $175 a pop now.

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by Anonymousreply 208October 13, 2020 2:26 PM

So Keith actually hates women for some reason. Have we been informed of the reason yet? I'm referring to his upbringing. Like he probably hates his mother.

Or is he just a perverted sex fiend?

by Anonymousreply 209October 14, 2020 3:28 AM

[quote] So Keith actually hates women for some reason. Have we been informed of the reason yet?

A good quarter of straight men do

by Anonymousreply 210October 14, 2020 3:57 AM

NXIVM attracts these people who are ambitious and socialised well enough to get along in life - be in the military, direct a neo-philosophical indie, act on a sci-fi show, parlaying a bit part in Star Wars into living entirely off conventions, be the granddaughter of mild royalty, have a natural talents for sales and marketing, be a former high school quarterback - but who lack critical thinking skills.

I was so creeped out by how turned on Allison was by her first meeting with Keith when he denigrated her life’s work as an artist. He said you don’t need art to feel joy like some and she started flirting. I guess that was successful negging in action.

The same thing happened to Mark. He said he wanted to made movies with compassion, with ethics and they said “how can you do that when you’re clearly not living a compassionate and ethical life?” and he thought instantly, I’m going to take a year and work on myself. My GOD. No one lives a perfectly ethical and compassionate life. No one. If he, and Allison, and Bonnie and the rest of these failed artists gave it 5 minutes of thought they’d realise that successful, humanist works of art deal exactly with our human frailties. But these idiots seem to think that enlightenment can be purchased and I think is partly a failure of critical thinking and education and partly stems out of them being extroverts and wanting the energy of a big social family.

As it stands, there seem to be 4 or 5 remaining devotees who can’t get over the loss of v-week and make a nightly vigil by the Brooklyn prison where Keith is held, dancing to Fatman Scoop.

Anyone has Eduardo?

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by Anonymousreply 211October 14, 2020 4:15 AM

[quote]He said he wanted to made movies with compassion, with ethics and they said “how can you do that when you’re clearly not living a compassionate and ethical life?” and he thought instantly, I’m going to take a year and work on myself. My GOD. No one lives a perfectly ethical and compassionate life. No one.

R211 Yes! It goes back to how delusional the recruits were about being some sort of PERFECT human. If these people had any sense they'd read a fucking Walt Whitman poem, see a play by Chekov, read a novel by Vonnegut, watch a film by Eric Rohmer, etc. Artists who were deeply humanistic, maybe then they'd understand that are flaws are part and parcel of our experiences. On one hand I think the recruits were ridiculously stupid, but on the other hand I feel pity for them. They thought they were changing the world. How sad.

As an aside, Catherine Oxenberg had a shining moment this episode when she was laughing about the dog bed that Mark made Bonnie sleep in. Perhaps, it was "too soon" to laugh about that, but it was funny. Then Mark became a pissy asshole when it was brought up. Come ON, it is funny that "your" cult made your wife sleep in a dog's bed as "penance." He was so upset with Catherine for "re-traumatizing" her, when Bonnie was laughing right along with Catherine.

Mark bothers me much more than Sarah.

by Anonymousreply 212October 14, 2020 2:11 PM

Overlong by three episodes.

by Anonymousreply 213October 14, 2020 2:17 PM

Overlong by five episodes.

by Anonymousreply 214October 14, 2020 2:32 PM

They should have gone into how Nancy got wrapped up with him. And Mark should be serving prison time.

by Anonymousreply 215October 14, 2020 2:39 PM

R212 Agree about Mark. He really showed his dark side in the scene with Oxenberg laughing about the dog bed.

by Anonymousreply 216October 14, 2020 2:46 PM

I'm disliking Mark more and more as the episodes go on. I'm starting to think he had some kind of "immunity" deal where if he came completely clean he wasn't prosecuted and also if he was completely transparent with Netflix they wouldn't bring it up and show him in a positive light.

I thought the same thing about the dog bed. Part of healing is laughing. They all know it was twisted and bad, let the poor woman have a laugh with her friend. I think Mark showed he's still an asshole by his reaction. I see a huge difference between him and Nippy. Nippy seems more genuine, but I really wish he had a different name.

by Anonymousreply 217October 14, 2020 3:00 PM

You realize that Nippy is just a nickname, right? His proper name is Anthony. I sort of like Nippy as a nickname; much more unique than Tony.

by Anonymousreply 218October 14, 2020 4:03 PM

I think Bonnie is as mortified about Mark as we are. Hopefully she leaves him soon. She can do better.

by Anonymousreply 219October 14, 2020 4:28 PM

r212, no. Catherine remains a large step removed from all of this and wasn't reading the signals that this is still incredibly traumatizing and shame-inducing for Bonnie. Bonnie wasn't laughing, she was trying to hold it together and not make things uncomfortable for Catherine. That scene made it clear that Catherine doesn't have much empathy for what happened to people other than her daughter. She may not have intended to be insensitive, but I loved that moment because she was put in her place. She needed to realize these people are still traumatized by this and not ready to joke about it.

by Anonymousreply 220October 14, 2020 4:39 PM

I find looking at pictures of Allison Mack kind of hard, because of how thin she was.

by Anonymousreply 221October 14, 2020 4:42 PM

I don’t understand the criticism of Mark in the dog bed scene. I think he looked genuinely upset and embarrassed and was obviously triggered that it was brought up because he realized his treatment of Bonnie was so poor.

by Anonymousreply 222October 14, 2020 4:56 PM

R220, no, he behaved like an abusive misogynist, silencing the “girls” (note, he referred to SOP as a group of MEN but DOS was composed of “girls”) so he could avoid accountability for whatever his actual level of participation in forcing his wife to sleep on the floor on a dog bed (and all the other heinous shit he did in the cult) was. He refuses to take accountability. Nippy needled him about that and he again passed the buck. Mark is a sick fuck who should not be allowed around women and Bonnie should have signaled to Catherine that she wanted to be rescued out of that abusive relationship. Catherine saw that dynamic for exactly what it is.

by Anonymousreply 223October 14, 2020 5:24 PM

[quote] You realize that Nippy is just a nickname, right?

Yes, I realize that. Which makes it even worse.

by Anonymousreply 224October 14, 2020 5:38 PM

I'm waiting for Catherine Oxenberg to investigate how Fallon went up into a flying saucer and came back a different actress......it was NEVER properly explained.

by Anonymousreply 225October 14, 2020 6:20 PM

Keith Raniere Dressed as a Woman

Keith Alan Raniere had a kinky side that led him to cross-dress, and wear makeup and lipstick, new evidence shows.

The man known as Vanguard was shown, at his trial for sex trafficking, racketeering and other felony counts, to have lusted after multiple women, always requiring them to please him, while the reverse was rarely of any concern to him.

He was shown to have an illegal perversion that led him to statutory rape of underage girls – as evidenced by his rape of 15-year-old Cami, 14-year-old Gina, and 12-year-old Rhiannon.

Keith was rumored to have gone out to sex clubs under the assumed name of Queef. He reportedly would visit clubs in the company of a tall, blond-haired man that some said was his gay lover.

It was rumored, Keith [as Queef] would stray from his normal, vegetarian diet and eat meat and portray himself as a lisping gay man or sometimes assume the role of a woman.

It was also said he led this double life – as an escape from the pressure of being the Vanguard for the large group of adoring followers who he was responsible for shepherding to unification through the Nxivm striped path. In his secret world, he became Queef, the sexy, carefree, beautiful lady of his fantasy world.

Although these rumors persisted for years, there was never any proof.

Sure, multiple people said they met this funny looking woman, a little flat-chested, who spoke with a soft, feminine voice, seemed a bit cross-eyed, who told anyone who would listen that she was the smartest women in the world and one of its top three problem solvers.

She reportedly said her name was Keisy Alayne, but her nickname was Queef. She was described as short and though she wore heels, had somewhat square feet. She lusted after men and would hop right on their laps when they were barely expecting it. She had a distinct body odor, as if she had not showered in a week. She was said to have luxurious hair but more than a little facial hair. She said she would not date a man who ate garlic.

Who was this woman? I long suspected it was Keith himself, but proof was hard to come by.

Finally, I obtained this copyright picture taken in December. 1992 of Keith Alan Raniere. Is this then Keisy Alayne Queef?

This is not a photo-shopped picture but a genuine, copyrighted picture of Keith Alan Raniere dressed as a woman, with makeup, lipstick and a wig.

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by Anonymousreply 226October 14, 2020 6:25 PM

Keith as Keisy Alayne Queef

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by Anonymousreply 227October 14, 2020 6:28 PM

That's interesting.

by Anonymousreply 228October 14, 2020 8:20 PM

[quote]Who is Robbie that had the sweet semen? I've watched every episode - is he featured on the show. It's kind of hot that the men j/o together.

His name is Robbie Chiappone. His mother Esther rented out rooms of her home to NXIVM members.

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by Anonymousreply 229October 14, 2020 11:47 PM

I cant get over the name Queef.

This is a joke, right?

by Anonymousreply 230October 15, 2020 1:16 AM

R230, either that or that word doesn’t mean what he thinks it means...

by Anonymousreply 231October 15, 2020 2:16 AM

Mark seemed half in love with Keith

by Anonymousreply 232October 15, 2020 4:05 AM

No matter how drunk I would be there was a line I could never cross. These people were sober (apparently) and crossed a line that most human beings would not cross and would question.

by Anonymousreply 233October 15, 2020 4:08 AM

I had a hard time watching this last episode because Keith’s characterization of men and women was so obnoxious. Catherine was tone deaf as to how upsetting the dog bed incident was to both Mark and Bonnie.

I think I’m in love with Nippy.

by Anonymousreply 234October 15, 2020 4:16 AM

Nippy was always talking about this weird friendship that he had with Keith. He gives a weird expression and says it's something he can't explain - the love he felt for him. It was something weird like that.

by Anonymousreply 235October 15, 2020 6:23 AM

This is awful, but knowing that Bonnie actually consented to sleeping in a dog beg because Mark told her to makes me disrespect her for still being with him now,

by Anonymousreply 236October 15, 2020 9:14 AM

Keithos! Markos! BARF!!

by Anonymousreply 237October 15, 2020 1:16 PM

R234 was tone deaf to what an abusive misogynist Mark still is to silence the women in the room who are discussing terrible things he did that he still refuses to take responsibility for.

by Anonymousreply 238October 15, 2020 1:42 PM

Agreed r238, it was very revealing.

I had forgotten that Catherine Oxenberg’s marriage to Casper Van Dien during this whole saga.

by Anonymousreply 239October 15, 2020 4:02 PM

r239 Divorced after 16 years - whats the dish? was he fucking every young starlet in Hollywood or was she a raging bitch? There has to be a baddie and a goodie :)

by Anonymousreply 240October 15, 2020 4:27 PM

Through the whole series I keep wondering what was the actual curriculum of NVXIM. I I've read a lot about scientology and other cults and usually get an idea of core beliefs and the rules that are used to keep their membership in line.

But with this HBO series, I see that there was an oddly charismatic leader, but I have not heard him say anything particularly insightful about the human condition or how to improve one's life or any of that shit that are the initial attraction of religion and other cults. I've just heard vague talk about ethics.

Can anyone point me to a website that boils down their beliefs and courses to the bare bones so I can see what got people hooked?

by Anonymousreply 241October 15, 2020 4:37 PM

I don't find Keith charismatic AT ALL. I don't get how he has ever had anyone pay attention to anything he says or does. He is a short, unattractive, little troll with horrible hair. What in the world do these sheeple see in him?

by Anonymousreply 242October 15, 2020 4:45 PM

I get that Mark apparently decided to document every fucking minute of his life with a camera. But what's with those supposedly personal conversations between Nippy and Sarah in their own home? Are those supposed to be re-enactments?

Considering these NVXIM members' penchant for filming every flipping moment of their lives I'm surprised there are no sex tapes from the group. Not that I want to see that bespectacled troll naked [shudder!]

by Anonymousreply 243October 15, 2020 4:49 PM

Wondering if a lot of the disciples rarely saw him—maybe his appearances were reserved for only the high rollers—and the rest were enticed/indoctrinated by the second tier: Allison, Nancy, Lauren, etc. ??

by Anonymousreply 244October 15, 2020 4:50 PM

Say what you will about Keith, but the one thing he does have is great hair...at least after it was cut and styled.

by Anonymousreply 245October 15, 2020 5:11 PM

"I don't find Keith charismatic AT ALL. I don't get how he has ever had anyone pay attention to anything he says or does. He is a short, unattractive, little troll with horrible hair. What in the world do these sheeple see in him?"

'Charismatic' does not mean fuckable or even physically attractive. If you think about cult leaders, many of them are not conventionally attractive. They do have something that draws people to them but it's hard to define what that something is.

by Anonymousreply 246October 15, 2020 5:30 PM

R246, I can’t think of a single cult leader who wasn’t either handsome or conventionally attractive as far as good bone structure / symmetry goes, aside from Troll “Queef” Raniere.

by Anonymousreply 247October 15, 2020 5:38 PM

R246, I understand the definition of "charismatic" and this guy ain't it. No way, shape, or form, regardless of his looks.

by Anonymousreply 248October 15, 2020 6:01 PM

[R247], how about L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology) Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (Transcendental Meditation) Sun Myung Moon (Moonies/ Unification Church) David Berg (Children of God) Bikram Choudhury (Bikram Yoga)

Some of these people might have been passible when young, but when they actually were cult leaders they were homely at best.

by Anonymousreply 249October 15, 2020 6:03 PM

[quote]I get that Mark apparently decided to document every fucking minute of his life with a camera. But what's with those supposedly personal conversations between Nippy and Sarah in their own home?

Yeah, I don't get that either.

Having said that, I can't complain about any opportunity to look at Nippy.

by Anonymousreply 250October 15, 2020 6:06 PM

Is it me or is this thing stretched out waaaay too thin? I'll finish since I'm 8 episodes in, but it's twice as long as in needed to be. Also, I'm getting tired of these privileged rich people who had nothing better to do than join this inane self help cult. I guess if you don't need to go to a job and have a lot of time on your hands it was something to do.

I'm not clear on whether they all lived together in Albany or lived apart. What is that townhouse subdivision they show aerial shots of in every episode? Did they all live there?

by Anonymousreply 251October 15, 2020 6:29 PM

R251 I think the Bronfmans paid for all their housing in Albany.

I don’t think ALL the members lived in Albany, someone had to run their training centers, after all. I think just Keith’s inner circle of concubines lived there.

I find it hard to completely dislike Sarah. Yeah, she’s a fucking idiot! But she’s less irritating than Mark. I also think she’s accepted her role in NXIVM and how fucked up it all was, more so than Mark. Her interview with Mark Rosenbaum (who worked with Alison Mack on Smallville) was interesting.

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by Anonymousreply 252October 15, 2020 6:50 PM

Ti and Do, formerly known as Bo and Peep.

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by Anonymousreply 253October 15, 2020 7:24 PM

Does anyone know why a cult leader with millions of his followers' dollars to play with wanted to live in - of all places - Albany NY?

It's not the worst city in the world but there are places with much better weather.

by Anonymousreply 254October 15, 2020 8:30 PM

I think it proves your commitment: You REALLY have to be a believer to put up with Albany.

by Anonymousreply 255October 15, 2020 9:23 PM

R238, Mark was mortified in the scene with the dog bed and did a little mea culpa, I thought....no? That whole thing about not really acknowledging how creepy it was when it happened? I’m actually not a fan of Mark either but he did seem genuinely upset to me...

by Anonymousreply 256October 15, 2020 9:48 PM

R256, no, he was seething that Catherine had raised an instance of him abusing her on camera and tried to minimize his role in forcing her to sleep in the dog bed and then attacked Catherine for bringing it up. He’s scum and refuses to take any responsibility. His version of accountability is basically “well, I’m sorry I’m an idealist who believes in human potential, some people just don’t have the inner drive to want to change the world and so maybe can’t understand what we were striving for” and never “that was enormously fucked up of me, I’m so sorry”. Also, he took a deal to get out of racketeering charges.

by Anonymousreply 257October 15, 2020 10:03 PM

They actually lived in the town of Halfmoon, north of Albany in Saratoga County. Maybe they keep referring to Albany because that’s the airport they fly in and out of.

by Anonymousreply 258October 15, 2020 10:10 PM

R257, that is a very valid read on that scene. I’m going to rewatch. Thank you for reframing it for me. :)

by Anonymousreply 259October 16, 2020 1:35 AM

R257 why are you insisting on defending Catherine? She has no business making fun of their trauma. She's a privileged woman who is now exploiting her daughter's ordeal with tv/interviews/books and she flippantly made fun of a situation that is none of her business. Bonnie wasn't having it either. We get it, you hate Mark. But they were in a fucked up cult. Unless you also think Bonnie has no agency?

by Anonymousreply 260October 16, 2020 2:10 AM

R260, so you've decided to join the conversation here, Mark?

by Anonymousreply 261October 16, 2020 2:12 AM

yeah i'm mark, that's it.

by Anonymousreply 262October 16, 2020 2:18 AM

r260, Catherine was pointing out the insanity of what Bonnie had come to believe was normal and acceptable treatment from her husband. Bonnie seemed fine until Mark told her she wasn’t fine, just like he told her to sleep in a dog bed, just like he wired their home with surveillance cameras so she had to hide in corners to make phone calls. Mark is an abuser. Mark does not take responsibility for his actions. Mark is a misogynist. And Bonnie, like many women, is trapped in an abusive marriage, abuse which is compounded by the cult trauma she will never be able to fully process if she sticks with Mark who is still engaging in high control techniques he honed during his 15 years being Queef’s protégé. His lack of response when Nippy was taking accountability for the horrific things they’d both done, his continued referral to women as “girls” and men as “men” and the way he treated Bonnie and Catherine in the dog bed scene tells you absolutely everything you need to know about that neckbeard.

by Anonymousreply 263October 16, 2020 2:28 AM

DL detectives... what do we think about the mass food "poisoning" that affected Vanguard Week in 2016? Did Keith have the cult members poisoned?!?

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by Anonymousreply 264October 16, 2020 2:47 AM

"Divorced after 16 years - whats the dish? was he fucking every young starlet in Hollywood or was she a raging bitch? There has to be a baddie and a goodie :)"

He was physically abusing her--beating her and so on. He was arrested for it at some point.

by Anonymousreply 265October 16, 2020 2:48 AM

I was kind of in Bonnie's corner. Tarot readings? Are you freaking kidding me.

by Anonymousreply 266October 16, 2020 5:30 AM

If Mark joins another cult, do we get to see another eight part documentary on HBO? I sure hope so. 🙄

by Anonymousreply 267October 16, 2020 5:37 AM

[quote]He’s scum and refuses to take any responsibility. His version of accountability is basically “well, I’m sorry I’m an idealist who believes in human potential, some people just don’t have the inner drive to want to change the world and so maybe can’t understand what we were striving for” and never “that was enormously fucked up of me, I’m so sorry”.

This is exactly why Mark creeps me out far more than Sarah does. Sarah suceeding as a saleswoman and marketing more so than being a True Believer. He jumps from cult to cult and has an enormous sense of self-satisfaction, as does Tarot Star Wars.

by Anonymousreply 268October 16, 2020 6:10 AM

I like the idea that he was trying to kill all of his acolytes off, having decided they were simply too stupid to live.

by Anonymousreply 269October 16, 2020 9:27 AM

[quote]If Mark joins another cult, do we get to see another eight part documentary on HBO? I sure hope so. 🙄

If The Vow is adapted into a dramatic TV series, he'll probably insist on playing himself. With music composed by Bonnie.

by Anonymousreply 270October 16, 2020 9:53 AM

The Times this morning recommends another Nxivm doc on STARZ and says it's better than the HBO version. And it's shorter.

by Anonymousreply 271October 16, 2020 1:21 PM

I think the Starz project is India Oxenberg telling her story, who will at least be a welcome change from Mark.

I started to listen to listen to Catherine Oxenberg's audiobook and it's pretty good. It's pretty revealing how she says she thought it was all the same-old, same-old from the start, hated Nancy, hated Keith and badmouthed everything about it but she kept pouring time and money into it for few years. Partially to be connected to India, partially because she would do the odd course and find some benefit from it and partially because she has always has 1-3 mind-body-spirit obsessions on the go at a time and EST fit the bill for a certain period. She bragged about Casper being an alpha male and had some issues with pills that broke up her friendship with Gabrielle Anwar and scuttered her involvement in their Sexology project (Catherine got into female sexuality after reading Vagina by Naomi Wolf and Fifty Shades Of Grey. She bought dozens of copies of Vagina and piled it by the front door to give to every woman who walked into her home.)

Rosario Dawson was at her very first session but left after 3 days due to a death in the family. So was Callum Blue, who acted his way through the EM sessions, made Nancy think his alcohol was cured and promptly went to the pub.

by Anonymousreply 272October 16, 2020 3:36 PM

Does anyone here know if DirectTV merged with AT&T? My login on HBO max no longer works (as of a few weeks ago) with DirecTV and the link is now AT&T - so I haven't been able to continue this show.

by Anonymousreply 273October 16, 2020 4:05 PM

They merged like two years ago and HBO Max still works. You may need to update your login credentials on the DirecTV site. It’s a clunky merger with the sites redirecting, but it does work despite being clumsy.

by Anonymousreply 274October 16, 2020 4:38 PM

The Vow has been renewed for a season 2.

by Anonymousreply 275October 16, 2020 5:24 PM

Zero interest in watching any more of psycho Mark, handmaiden Bonnie or Sarah & Nippy. Not interested in a whole season of India, either. If it gets into the deal Nancy and Keith struck and all the girlfriends/followers he seemingly murdered then I might be interested. I’d also like to hear from the teenager he held prisoner in a bedroom of one of those condos for years on end, with her family’s approval.

by Anonymousreply 276October 16, 2020 5:27 PM

^ I am so much more interested in Nancy and the Mexicans.

Though I wouldn’t complain about seeing more Nippy. Nippy shirtless, Nippy flexing, Nippy laughing, Nippy shirtless.

by Anonymousreply 277October 16, 2020 5:50 PM

They are doing a second season of this thing!?!?!

That is insanity. Once this "season" is over I've had sufficient.

by Anonymousreply 278October 16, 2020 7:56 PM

[quote]The Vow has been renewed for a season 2.

This is clearly a joke post

by Anonymousreply 279October 16, 2020 9:10 PM

I didn't post that R279, but it is true.

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by Anonymousreply 280October 16, 2020 10:22 PM

I think another season could be interesting, as long as it moved the focus away from Mark, Sarah, Nippy, Catherine, etc. Maybe season 2 can uncover if Queef really Keith?

by Anonymousreply 281October 16, 2020 11:57 PM

As Mark and Bonnie shared their video and audio footage with The Vow people, they must be making money from it somehow.

by Anonymousreply 282October 17, 2020 1:28 AM

Nancy, the woman who started it with Keith and whored her own daughter out to him we need to know more about. The bitch is complicit.

by Anonymousreply 283October 17, 2020 2:05 AM

YES! I find that cunt Nancy to be the most enigmatic and interesting of them all.

by Anonymousreply 284October 17, 2020 3:01 AM

This does not need a season two...yuck.

by Anonymousreply 285October 17, 2020 3:12 AM

And did Nancy fuck him too? I realize towards the end he started getting more picky and going for the young stuff but seems like at the beginning he was fucking anything.

by Anonymousreply 286October 17, 2020 3:12 AM

Yeah, he was fucking both Nancy and her daughter, Lauren. The cops found millions of dollars in cash hidden in the attic and walls and floors of her condo when they raided it. She's out on 5 million bond, but probably not for long. Lauren is on house arrest.

Also, India was in love with Allison Mack, even before DOS started, which made her even more susceptible to coercion. Allison is still Green Card married to Nikki Clyne, who still appears to be a Keith loyalist, and is taking...wait for it...Gender Studies courses at UC Berkeley -- because nothing deprograms a person out of misogynist cult dogma like more misogynist cult dogma.

The weirdest part to me is that, despite having defied all the odds, having managed to overcome his entire personality and appearance and having sustained decades of power over a harem, all of Keith's rhetoric is still King Of The Incels bullshit.

I'm offended that Mark not only escaped what should have been serious prison time and fled the country so he can't be easily brought back in on additional charges, but that he orchestrated this series to try to paint himself as a victim, while he's continuing to abuse his wife in isolation in Portugal. He's grotesque and just as twisted as Keith.

by Anonymousreply 287October 17, 2020 8:16 AM

R287 Mark and Bonnie live in Portugal?

by Anonymousreply 288October 17, 2020 12:31 PM

It is fascinating to me that some people can make money when being in a cult and then even more money when leaving a cult. They can monetize anything. Amazing.

by Anonymousreply 289October 17, 2020 12:48 PM

r288, yeah, they moved to Portugal.

The only person I know who has moved to Portugal did so, after getting in serious legal trouble in both Hokkaido and NYC. He picked Portugal because he knew a Baroness living there who was infatuated with him and willing to financially take care of him in exchange for him basically becoming her gigolo.

In a just world, Mark would be living at Rikers.

by Anonymousreply 290October 17, 2020 1:56 PM

R287 How do you know they live in Portugal? From the series it was stated they live in a non disclosed location somewhere in California.

by Anonymousreply 291October 17, 2020 2:27 PM

You can always tell that wheels are turning in Mark's head when he answers an unplanned question, like one that Nippy or Catherine asked him. As if he's struggling to find the "right" answer to say on camera. Whereas Nippy just speaks from his heart. You can tell there is no guilt in Nippy's mind.

by Anonymousreply 292October 17, 2020 2:40 PM

R291 They say they live in Portugal, that's how we know.

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by Anonymousreply 293October 17, 2020 2:48 PM

I don’t see the hotness you guys see in Nippy. He looks so average I can’t even remember what he looks like.

by Anonymousreply 294October 17, 2020 3:06 PM

r294, Nippy reminds me of the kind of blueblood, old money WASPs of whom Scott Fitzgerald was so jealous. He'd be more attractive if he lost about 30 pounds of baby weight.

by Anonymousreply 295October 17, 2020 3:08 PM

Thanks R293. I enjoy the series, but not interested in reading everything about them.

by Anonymousreply 296October 17, 2020 5:40 PM

Nipsy Russell has the personality of a garden lump. And fuck, so does the wife. She's so boring I cannot even remember her name. She seems VERY thirsty. Very.

I'd let Nipsy mount me, regardless. But I'd be bored.

by Anonymousreply 297October 17, 2020 5:44 PM

Sarah has a fun personality. I think she could get a job on a talk show, as part of a round table.

by Anonymousreply 298October 17, 2020 6:13 PM

I feel like Bonnie is more complicit than she makes out. Her new career as a tarot reader raises major red flags for me.

by Anonymousreply 299October 17, 2020 6:18 PM

Nippy was quite attractive when he was younger

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by Anonymousreply 300October 18, 2020 1:12 AM

Nippy is too fleshy and his hairline is receding. But compared to the other men in that cult he looked like a stud.

by Anonymousreply 301October 18, 2020 4:13 AM

Had he concentrated more on his career Nippy could have made an income as a Hallmark channel hunk, in which case he would have worked out, tanned and gotten a hair transplant like any other working actor pushing 40.

by Anonymousreply 302October 18, 2020 6:03 AM

I want to taste the sweet, abundant semen coming out of Keithos thick, 7.5 size meet.

by Anonymousreply 303October 18, 2020 9:53 AM

So I think "Rachel" the black urban farmer is Michelle Hatchette. She was Allison Mack's slave, and then transferred (was sold?) to Nicki Clyne. She still performs in the weekly jail dances with Nicki and Dr Danielle Roberts.

by Anonymousreply 304October 18, 2020 10:52 AM

Are we supposed to know who Michelle Hatchette is?

by Anonymousreply 305October 18, 2020 6:59 PM

The documentary on Starz is far superior, and much more accurate.

by Anonymousreply 306October 19, 2020 2:15 PM

What has been factually inaccurate about The Vow?

by Anonymousreply 307October 19, 2020 2:24 PM

I can’t tell you everything, just take my word for it.

by Anonymousreply 308October 19, 2020 2:48 PM

It’s kind of hard to be factually inaccurate when the whole documentary consists of real audio and video.

by Anonymousreply 309October 19, 2020 2:52 PM

How do you know that it’s all “real”?

by Anonymousreply 310October 19, 2020 3:15 PM

The problem with The Vow is there is no sense of time. Lots of re-enactments and reaction shots of Mark/Bonnie having pre-recorded phone conversations.

The filmmakers had taken NXIVM courses as well.

by Anonymousreply 311October 19, 2020 3:20 PM

Exactly, and the goal for all of them is to justify why they dedicated themselves to this cult. They don’t want you to think that they were brainwashed or that they’re stupid. Fun fact: many of these people were in other cults before this one.

by Anonymousreply 312October 19, 2020 3:33 PM

Oh, and that information has been conveniently left out.

by Anonymousreply 313October 19, 2020 3:34 PM

Glad I'm not the only person who find Sarah and Mark repellent. Sarah's thirsty, actress-y "I'm number one!" personality and Mark's ability to shape-shift on a dime made me wonder how HBO allowed him to hijack the entire series. I suppose they had to because he had all the footage. He's a complete sleaze and an opportunist. Ditto Sarah. She has that undereducated, but eked out a living by her wits hardness that screams narcissist. I want Bonnie to run for the hills away from these people. She actually seems to have a real personality. The rest of them don't. Maybe that's what drew them to Keith.

The more I watched, the more annoyed I got. ALL cults, every single one of them, control food intake and sleep deprive their members to maintain mind control, and the second I saw the volleyball games, I thought, "how could you possibly think playing volleyball for seven hour sessions overnight is improving your life in any way?" Also, why was Keith so weight-obsessed himself? It was constant walking, volleyball, he met his ex skiing etc. and yet he's a little blimp himself.

I want to finish the series, but watching people fall for this bullshit is mystifying. It's like the Trumpanzees. What do they not get? It's all a giant lie.

by Anonymousreply 314October 19, 2020 4:09 PM

[quote] I want Bonnie to run for the hills away from these people. She actually seems to have a real personality. The rest of them don't. Maybe that's what drew them to Keith.

Bonnie is the clean, nice, respectable face of whistleblowing and I don’t trust her one bit. Dude, she married a white South African 20 years her senior for a reason and consented to sleeping in a dog bed which was STILL in their bedroom - she is entirely compatible with him. She’s now a tarot reader in Portugal for fuck’s sake.

by Anonymousreply 315October 19, 2020 4:18 PM

And YOU have the card of gastrointestinal problems, R315. Don't believe me? Try not to fart all day!

by Anonymousreply 316October 19, 2020 5:25 PM

Glad I’m not the only ones who found the ex-culties unlikeable. I got the vibe they were failed entertainment business wannabes who were excited to finally get some notoreity

by Anonymousreply 317October 19, 2020 5:59 PM

Bonnie is crazy AF!

by Anonymousreply 318October 19, 2020 7:31 PM

Very disappointing. Exactly what did Raniere do? Unclear. How did NVXIM harass and hassle the defectors? Unclear. Exactly what did the FBI arrest everyone for? Unclear. Altogether nebulous and unsatisfying. And if that's because it's setting up a second season (as if it wasn't protracted enough already), that's ludicrous.

by Anonymousreply 319October 19, 2020 10:00 PM

Where can I see the STARz doc without STARz?

by Anonymousreply 320October 19, 2020 10:03 PM

You’re probably right r315. She’s got a screw or two loose but she seems less Me-me-me than the others. As well, she fucked off out of there early because she saw how awful the cult was. Why she can’t get away from her old man husband remains a mystery. I bet once she starts reading what people think of Mark she’ll dump him in a few months. He’s a snake.

by Anonymousreply 321October 19, 2020 11:30 PM

Yes, I too would like to see a less biased documentary.

by Anonymousreply 322October 20, 2020 1:00 AM

What is the Starz documentary called?

by Anonymousreply 323October 20, 2020 1:36 AM

'Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult' is the Starz four-parter.

by Anonymousreply 324October 20, 2020 3:17 AM

The Starz doc is a four parter; they've only aired one episode. After investing nine hours in the HBO one, I'll wait til we hear how good the Starz doc is after its aired in entirety before wasting any more time on Keith and the suckers of his sweet semen.

by Anonymousreply 325October 20, 2020 3:34 AM

[quote] How did NVXIM harass and hassle the defectors?

In about 2008-2010 there were the NXIVM Nine - a bunch of women who were pissed about financial impropriety and that the female board was ducking Keith - and the Bronfman women spent money omg legal dirty tricks.

There is a CBC podcast by a journalist who was childhood friend of Sarah’s from Jewish day camp that goes into the ins and outs of the Scientology type aspect of it.

by Anonymousreply 326October 20, 2020 9:06 AM

[quote] As well, she fucked off out of there early because she saw how awful the cult was.

Bonnie left months, not years, before Mark.

by Anonymousreply 327October 20, 2020 9:07 AM

Its not like those are independent events r327. Bonnie convinced Mark to leave, who then convinced Sarah to leave. She started that train reaction and who knows what would have happened there if she hadn't.

by Anonymousreply 328October 20, 2020 9:59 AM

Heh, chain* reaction

by Anonymousreply 329October 20, 2020 10:00 AM

Nah, Sarah would have eventually left regardless of Mark and Bonnie because she had a breakdown because of the branding and was grossed out by the idea of fucking Keith.

Mark and Bonnie are very good at centering themselves in this narrative.

by Anonymousreply 330October 20, 2020 10:24 AM

SEDUCED is so far very good. By focusing on India Oxenberg, it offers a step-by-step look at how some of these women were slowly drawn into the web. And hr grandma, Princess Elizabeth, is an early face for best supporting character.

I think I heard during the show that the Bronfman sisters supplied something like 200 million to the cult. Wow.

by Anonymousreply 331October 20, 2020 12:32 PM

There were more people involved with getting Bonnie and Mark out of the cult, but they don’t want you to know that.

by Anonymousreply 332October 20, 2020 2:27 PM

Tell us more R332. After seeing episode one of Seduced I regret wasting 9 hours on the Mark, Bonnie, Sarah and Nippy show.

by Anonymousreply 333October 20, 2020 6:59 PM

Yes r331. I was floored at how much the Bronfman’s spent. It’s horrifying how Raniere was able to convince seemingly intelligent, creative people to lose all sense of logic and reality.

Sociopaths. Gotta watch for them like hawks.

by Anonymousreply 334October 20, 2020 8:57 PM

I'm at loss on how that little Raniere troll enticed so many. We saw enough footage of him to have that "Oh, yep, there it is, there's the faux magnetism and charisma" but he didn't even muster that. He's just that virgin stoner guy in undergrad with incense and patchouli and farts wafting out of his dorm room. We all encountered him and now he works in a food coop and drives an 89 Subaru.

Christ people are retarded.

by Anonymousreply 335October 20, 2020 9:11 PM

He did have a talent for making moronic rich people feel guilty for having money and forking it over to him.

by Anonymousreply 336October 20, 2020 9:16 PM

The Bronfman girls have to have been very vulnerable and needy to have been duped out of that much money. Would be sad if they hadn't done so much harm.

by Anonymousreply 337October 20, 2020 10:50 PM

R337, or just stupid....

by Anonymousreply 338October 20, 2020 10:51 PM

Here’s a nice comparison of the two.

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by Anonymousreply 339October 20, 2020 11:16 PM

^ Interesting article. Thanks

by Anonymousreply 340October 21, 2020 12:11 AM

Damn. I'm going to have to get Starz, aren't I?

by Anonymousreply 341October 21, 2020 12:30 AM

That article is spot on R339. I did feel like I wasted 9 hours on The Vow after seeing the first episode of Seduced. And Mark was so creepy. Thanks for posting.

by Anonymousreply 342October 21, 2020 1:29 AM

Starz is on Hulu too.

by Anonymousreply 343October 21, 2020 1:46 AM

That's not an article at r339 it's a press release

by Anonymousreply 344October 21, 2020 3:37 AM

R344 = creepy misogynist beta Mark Vicente

Can you imagine what a flop you’d have to be to play beta to *Keith’s* alpha?

by Anonymousreply 345October 21, 2020 3:40 AM

I don't think The Vow underplayed Keith's menace so much as it had a slow burn reveal. The finale really brings it home that this man is an incredibly twisted sociopath who enjoyed not only playing with and humiliating these people for years, but in many cases like Mark and Bonnie, he outright told them from the beginning what he was going to do to them in the guise of spiritual allegories. It's so staggeringly evil and premeditated and elaborate. He kept it going for decades. I came away thinking it's a really good thing that statistically sociopaths are of average to below average intelligence because just ONE intelligent one can do a vast amount of damage.

R345 I totally thought Mark was in love with Keith. He even admitted to getting jealous of his girlfriends! Bitch please.

by Anonymousreply 346October 21, 2020 3:44 AM

We knew it! Before we even knew of this other documentary, Seduced, we knew Mark was shady!

by Anonymousreply 347October 21, 2020 3:45 AM

The way Mark looked at Keith was gross.

by Anonymousreply 348October 21, 2020 3:47 AM

It was obvious to anyone with half a brain that every single "victim" on The Vow was to some degree or another complicit in Raniere's evil and many of them were underplaying it and desperate to create public redemption narratives for themselves.

by Anonymousreply 349October 21, 2020 3:50 AM

r345 Hey Cathy!

by Anonymousreply 350October 21, 2020 3:53 AM

Mark, no one who wasn’t in your cult has any idea who “Cathy“ is. Stop while you’re behind.

by Anonymousreply 351October 21, 2020 4:02 AM

why do you call anyone who disagrees with you "marK" r351?

by Anonymousreply 352October 21, 2020 4:12 AM

I watched the first episode of the Starz show on this and it was pretty good

by Anonymousreply 353October 21, 2020 5:10 AM

[quote]I don't think The Vow underplayed Keith's menace so much as it had a slow burn reveal.

It was not very well made. The pacing was poor, the timeline was off and the filmmakers were ex-ESP members.

by Anonymousreply 354October 21, 2020 5:15 AM

Started watching THE LOST WOMEN OF NXIVM on the ID channnel. It's got some interesting information, but boy is it shlocky!

by Anonymousreply 355October 21, 2020 11:31 AM

Ughhhhhh now I have to get Starz

by Anonymousreply 356October 21, 2020 1:10 PM

R356 Ugh, I feel the same! I think I'll subscribe to Starz once episode 4 has aired, so I can binge it. We'll see how much self control I have. I'll probably subscribe to Starz tomorrow.

Is there a new thread for the India Oxenberg show, or are we staying here? And just accusing anyone who likes The Vow more of being Mark?

by Anonymousreply 357October 21, 2020 1:58 PM

Fun fact: Even though they weren’t EPs, Mark and Bonnie were definitely involved with making the Vow. It’s a documentary designed to make money, because no one wants to work with them, and justify their roles in the cult. I bet they’re fuming at the Starz doc, it turns the Nxivm hierarchy in its head. Now India and other less powerful ex-cult members are in control of the story, not Mark.

by Anonymousreply 358October 21, 2020 2:08 PM

If I were those woman like Keith’s long ago girlfriend who is still being harassed I would not be so trusting or forgiving of Mark

by Anonymousreply 359October 21, 2020 6:53 PM

I’m not sure how much more obvious it could be that Mark and Sarah made a deal with the FBI and flipped for some degree of immunity. I don’t think it’s incidental at all that both couples fled the country in an attempt to complicate any further charges that might be filed against them for additional crimes that come to light during the investigation and prosecution of Keith’s other henchmen.

by Anonymousreply 360October 21, 2020 7:02 PM

The Starz documentary is far superior to HBO's, imo.

by Anonymousreply 361October 21, 2020 7:24 PM

r339 Thanks for that article, it all makes sense now. Watching the Vow was interesting as first but eventually became maddening, meandering and too much of Mark trying to put his narrative out there. I was confused about how it all fit together yet stuck with it, thinking it would even eventually become coherent. It did not. Is that what they felt happened to them in this cult? See how easy it is, viewers?

Fuck these shady profiteers for not exposing what Keith was really up to. The Frank Report can be hard to navigate but the real dirt is on there. I am still trying to figure out how they got away with stealing so much “tech” from super litigious Scientology. Keith was such a uncharistmatic blob, even with all that NLP, that I yearned for the random pauses and intonations of L. Ron Hubbard to make that garbage listenable.

by Anonymousreply 362October 21, 2020 11:22 PM

Maybe I'm giving the producers too much credit, but I actually don't think The Vow was trying to make Mark, Bonnie, Sarah and Nippy look like victims. I think it was trying to make them look like people who are desperately trying to cast themselves in the victim roles, and it did that handily. The producers gave them enough rope to hang themselves and they didn't come off looking good at all. The way they kept saying they were good people, over and over - it was like listening to people talk about how they're "empaths." If you have to say it...

by Anonymousreply 363October 22, 2020 12:22 AM

No chance for a Smallville revival now

by Anonymousreply 364October 22, 2020 2:30 AM

Isn't it possible that Mark, Sarah, Bonnie & Nippy can be... victims AND perpetrators? I don't think it's as black and white as some people are making it out. I mean, these people must really be lacking something if they're sucked into a fucking MLM cult that evolved into a sex cult.

by Anonymousreply 365October 22, 2020 2:34 AM

R365, How do you imagine Mark was victimized? What was done to him? In which situation was Mark’s agency taken from him?

by Anonymousreply 366October 22, 2020 3:18 AM

I’m finally watching the last episode and I, now, think Mark is a legit sociopath and not just a craven, shiftless, “nice guy” aspiring tyrant. He seriously thought he could use this doc to paint himself as a white knight and that people would see him as a hero.

Fifty bucks says he’s back in the news in fifteen years for strangling Bonnie to death and tries to put forth a self-defense argument.

by Anonymousreply 367October 22, 2020 3:57 AM

Or he starts his own "cult."

by Anonymousreply 368October 22, 2020 4:09 AM

R366 You're right. I really shouldn't have mentioned Mark. I think he went along with this too happily.

by Anonymousreply 369October 22, 2020 4:17 AM

Keith is so cringey to watch. Ugly face, pudgy dwarf body, greasy hair and beard. He looks like he smells, especially wen he's in that volley ball get up. Just...ew. Disgusting in every way, and that's before he opens his mouth to vomit all that nonsensical word salad horse shit.

It's incredible to me that 'anyone' followed that loser, let alone so many smart, talented, attractive, rich and successful people. Didn't any of these sheeple Google his pathetic ass before going all in on his cult? He was a failed MLM entrepreneur, had several lawsuits against him, raped underaged girls. The "smartest man alive" graduated college with a 2.4 GPA. LOLOLOL. WT actual F.

by Anonymousreply 370October 22, 2020 10:48 AM

Cult leader is accused of raping at least three very young girls. I wonder if he starved the women the cult to make them look like pre-teens.

by Anonymousreply 371October 22, 2020 11:31 AM

That Pam woman, the love of his life, was a skeleton. He also liked a full bush.

Mark shows how much cult victims lack critical thinking. That's what gets them hooked. He was impressed by Keith's high IQ. Anyone with a bit of life experience knows that a high IQ or even intelligence shows cognitive potential to understand concepts and not that they actually DO anything with their ability.

by Anonymousreply 372October 22, 2020 11:37 AM

[quote]It's incredible to me that 'anyone' followed that loser, let alone so many smart, talented, attractive, rich and successful people.

It's only incredible if that you assume that these "smart, talented, attractive, rich and successful people" have earned their success through hard work and common sense and street smarts: they haven't, and they know it, and that's why they're looking for something to fill the void.

by Anonymousreply 373October 22, 2020 11:41 AM

If you saw some of the videos, especially from V week, and especially ones not seen in the documentaries, there aren’t many attractive people. It’s a bunch of girls with scarves holding their coffee with two hands.

by Anonymousreply 374October 22, 2020 1:58 PM

Yeah, by the end I had zero sympathy for Mark and also started wondering what else he might be capable of. I’m sure he’s humiliated at being revealed as a jerk, despite an attempt to give himself the “hero edit” in this series. Once you look into the actual crimes committed (conveniently not laid out in this documentary), you realize that as someone high up, on the BoD and as involved with Keith and his desire to “break” the women into submission, you understand that he is not exactly an innocent victim. He’s complicit. The crimes were not a one time thing, they went on for years and Mark stayed, even though his wife was extremely uncomfortable with the situation. I don’t think there is a “there” there with him.

by Anonymousreply 375October 22, 2020 2:36 PM

It’s been said Keith was poisoning the so called love of his life Pam

by Anonymousreply 376October 22, 2020 3:04 PM

General cult question, can anyone recommend a good book about cults? Since watching The Vow, I'm particularly fascinated by how the brainwashing can go from "take this $2000 class to better yourself" to "oops, you're a sex slave"! It doesn't have to be about NXIVM, but I want to read more about them.

by Anonymousreply 377October 22, 2020 3:10 PM

Is Pam the one who died of a mysterious illness? They should exhume her body.

by Anonymousreply 378October 22, 2020 3:21 PM

Manson and his followers were a cult too. How do you go from a very ordinary background to killing people R377?

by Anonymousreply 379October 22, 2020 3:21 PM

Oh please, R373. These are not people without many, MANY better options. If you feel you absolutely must turn over your life to someone and be their sex slave, at least pick someone gorgeous, fit and sexy. Someone who looks and smells like he might bathe regularly.

by Anonymousreply 380October 22, 2020 4:04 PM

From what I could see, this toad just gave these narcissists a lot of personal attention. And they lapped it up like starving dogs.

by Anonymousreply 381October 22, 2020 4:07 PM

I thought the first episode did a good job of showing how people got hooked in the early classes... they wanted to improve themselves, and facing an obstacle and overcoming it gives you a natural high.

What I think the Vow really skipped over was the $$$, unless I missed it. I think Sarah mentioned that this was her business, and she got commissions for bringing people in, but the show didn't really go into the numbers. If you're making money by bringing in new recruits, and you tell yourself that you're helping all these people, that would make it very attractive to stay in the cult.

by Anonymousreply 382October 22, 2020 4:41 PM

I think Sarah and Nippy should pay people back, it’s not fair that they’re living in a luxurious residence, even if it’s disgustingly filthy. Mark and Bonnie are pretty much destitute, living in a run down apartment before they moved to Portugal.

by Anonymousreply 383October 22, 2020 6:29 PM

They must have SOME money if they can up and move to Portugal.

by Anonymousreply 384October 22, 2020 7:14 PM

R384, Bonnie saved up her Tarot money and Mark probably made her hide in a suitcase while he took the seat in couch, complaining about leg room the whole time.

by Anonymousreply 385October 22, 2020 9:11 PM

Portugal is relatively cheap R384. For less than $2500/month you can live quite comfortably.

by Anonymousreply 386October 22, 2020 9:22 PM

r377 I read Combating Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan for a college class about 15 years ago. Around the same time I fell into a message board gossip rabbit hole regarding Katie Holmes possibly faking running the NYC marathon with the help of Scientology, via her new beau Tom Cruise. That led me to Tony Ortega’s website and the Operation Clambake message boards where ex-Scientology members were sharing their stories of being in that cult. Steve Hassan’s book really helped me understand how people can be sucked in so quickly and find it so hard to leave.

by Anonymousreply 387October 22, 2020 10:26 PM

She really didn’t run the NYC marathon. It was part of Scientology’s plan to make her appear as the all round perfect Scientology wife. She can sing! She can dance! She can act! She’s a designer! She can run a marathon!

by Anonymousreply 388October 23, 2020 1:25 AM

R386 Just ask Madonna!

by Anonymousreply 389October 23, 2020 2:26 AM

-r377 -r387 I wish there was a good non-academic history of the rise in the West of both the cult movements in the late 60s and the various anti-cult responses (they are fascinating too - the evangelical ministries on the one hand and the secular de-programmers on the other (who often have no professional training and who used ethically dubious methods involving kidnapping and involuntary confinement to a market of distraught parents who would pay anything to restore relationships with their kids who suddenly cut them out of their lives completely) but there isn't one that I have found. I agree that Hassan is the most reputable of the cult skeptics (he has a good Youtube channel) and does his best to apply academic rigor and maintain objectivity despite his ex-Mooney past and Tony Ortega is by far the best journalist to read on scientology (he was covering it full time at the Village Voice for decades even when most journalists were terrified of being sued out business if they even printed the word Scientology).

As an aside, if you want a brief yet entertaining gloss on the peculiar state of the academic study of cults found itself in by mid 90s, the short lived but brilliant magazine Linga Franca ran one of its best articles on the subject in December of 1998 (link attached). For those who weren't grad students in the 90s, Lingua Franca was a sort cheeky middle brough magazine/journal of academia that managed to find a good blend of gossip and serious reporting on the intersection of the professional and personal lives of US academics and their students and used that frame to shed some light on the often-messy reality of knowledge production in the modern western research university system. Although it only ran for from 1990 to 2001, I am amazed at how well most of the articles hold up to this day - luckily, most of the issues are freely available in full text in a great online archive created by none other than the late Aaron (NOT GAY) Swartz as a test run I suppose for his later attempts to do the same on a much larger scale for JSTOR (Linga Franca wasn't owned by a multi-national database corporation so it probably cooperated with him - JSTOR was not so benign). If Linga Franca were still around, I have no doubt that it would have published a great article that examined the NOT GAY online diary entry, the dynamics of internalized homophobia and why the subject was almost entirely absent from the voluminous public discourse surrounding his death (it barely even got much traction on DL...) But I ramble...

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by Anonymousreply 390October 23, 2020 3:33 AM

I’m actually enjoying the Starz one more than the HBO one. The HBO one got so boring towards the end. Starz is always running specials. I got 6 months for 20 bucks with some Promotion a while back.

by Anonymousreply 391October 23, 2020 5:26 AM

I wanted at least one of these two things from The Vow: either tell me about their beliefs and 'doctrine' or give me trashy, salacious details in every episode that will keep me entertained. The Vow failed on both counts.

Looking at Frank Parlato's blog supplied plenty of the details of Keith's weird svengali-like sexual exploitation of his followers, I still don't know what they taught in those classes or courses or whatever and what the NVIXM courses actually taught.

I like reading and watching shit about fringe religions and cult-ish training programs like EST. set the last half of the Vow was just a giant nothing Burger.

Can anyone here tell me exactly what these people believed? What was taught in those courses? I get that they borrowed terminology from Scientology. But it doesn't sound like they did $cino auditing or talked about Xenu or crap like that. What about their philosophy was so compelling that people remained in the organization committed despite the abuse?

by Anonymousreply 392October 23, 2020 7:26 AM

The first episode of the STARZ series "Seduced" was much more informative and interesting. R392 a lot of info about their teachings was presented......

by Anonymousreply 393October 23, 2020 2:57 PM

-r392 The Starz series seems to hew more to the conventions of traditional documentary filmmaking than the HBO's - the personal narrative of the India and her family and friends is supplemented with short cameos by academic and other subject matter experts who provide historical, psychological and political context when needed (anyone who has seen many Scientology docs will recognize folks like Hassan or Janja Lalich). I can't remember the exact genealogy of NVIXM but Keith apparently cribbed heavily from the self-help gurus of the late 80s/early 90s and incorporated a multilevel marketing aspect for recruitment (there was a short bit comparing word for word some of Keith's nostrums with other gurus who were popular at the time but now long forgotten). He also was heavily influenced by the Fountainhead and objectivism in general along with the new age Wishy "you create your own reality" crap. The EM sessions are rebranded versions of scientology auditing, which was obvious to anyone who is familiar with Scientology. Although they pushed expensive coursework and seminars, they don't seem to have made much money from that probably because they the Brofman sugar mommas made fundraising irrelevant. Even with all that background, I am still surprised that anyone took him seriously...

by Anonymousreply 394October 23, 2020 3:10 PM

[quote]What about their philosophy was so compelling that people remained in the organization committed despite the abuse?

The ESP folk went for easy targets, people who were into their brand of woo woo. Catherine Oxenberg had a very West Coast spiritual life with angels and gurus and yoga and self-help galore, so she fit right in, but she is also a traditional second-wave feminist. Though she liked the therapy aspect of the EM sessions, she didn't buy what Jness was selling. She took courses for a few years before leaving.

Similarly they had Mark as a well, a mark, as soon as his dopey documentary came out. They saw it and knew he'd fit right in. He didn't capitalise on the success of What the Bleep by developing more projects, he spend a year playing night volleyball to get some of Keith's attention. Bonnie was introduced to Mark because she was a huge fan of What The Bleep. Another easy mark.

by Anonymousreply 395October 23, 2020 5:46 PM

The Bronfman mother is now married to Nigel Havers.

by Anonymousreply 396October 23, 2020 5:47 PM

Was Catherine throwing shade on Mark with the quip about the wife sleeping on the floor? Anyone who has seen the HBO series will notice that right away...

by Anonymousreply 397October 23, 2020 10:04 PM

I listen to a comedy podcast and the guys were saying a fun Halloween couples costume would be Keith Rainere holding a volleyball, wearing the dorky headband and knee pads, and Allison Mack with a branding iron that has henna ink on it.

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by Anonymousreply 398October 23, 2020 10:22 PM

Careful, r397. If you don't agree that Bonnie welcomed that shade, and is desperately crying out to get away from Mark and that Mark wouldn't let Bonnie address the comment, instead stepping in defensively because Bonnie has no power and is under the thumb of Mark, and Catherine, in that moment is trying to save Bonnie instead of carelessly mocking a trauma they are still dealing with, you will be accused of actually being "Mark"

by Anonymousreply 399October 23, 2020 10:25 PM

It seems to be a particular type of actor that falls for this.

In the opening minutes Sarah tells us that her ambition was to be a famous actress and to use her fame to do good. There is no artistic ambition there at all--just a desire to exploit her self-imagined charisma. This is not the kind of actress who does independent films or the Delacorte when her series is on hiatus. Her whole game was self-image, which left her vulnerable.

by Anonymousreply 400October 24, 2020 1:58 AM

That's pretty twisted and presumptive logic, r400. But, ok.

by Anonymousreply 401October 24, 2020 3:11 AM

R398 Ugh. Keith's volleyball get-up WOULD be a really good Halloween costume this year. Just one more reason to hate COVID.

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by Anonymousreply 402October 24, 2020 3:51 AM

Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia should be a DL Icon.

by Anonymousreply 403October 24, 2020 3:55 AM

Recently I watched 'Wild Wild Country' and 'Holy Hell', recommend both.

The gay would be actor / porn star/ hypnotist 'guru' of Holy Hell was a ballet dancer of sorts and like Volleyball Keith tortured his disciples to learn ballet and made them build him a theater and stage ballets where he would be the star. Of course he is also a sex abuser.

by Anonymousreply 404October 24, 2020 3:57 AM

R404, what’s “Holy Hell”?

by Anonymousreply 405October 24, 2020 4:02 AM

Reviews have all said that Seduced is better than Vow.

by Anonymousreply 406October 24, 2020 4:07 AM

OMG, I just watched the first episode of Seduced. It is soo so much better done. That last moment of India looking into the camera, that look in her eyes...

I can post a link to download it, if anyone wants.

by Anonymousreply 407October 24, 2020 4:12 AM

R405, a documentary about a cult called Buddhafield

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by Anonymousreply 408October 24, 2020 4:23 AM

Oh man, I had forgotten that J.D. Salinger stalked Catherine Oxenberg when she was on Dynasty.

by Anonymousreply 409October 24, 2020 12:20 PM

I've met Sara Bronfman twice and she's a royal bitch.

by Anonymousreply 410October 24, 2020 1:22 PM

r410, The Enlightened are unshackled from society's agreed upon standards of decency!

At the end of the day, regardless of the mumbo jumbo being peddled, the attitudes of these hucksters and those who aspire to be them is always the Crowlian: do what thou wilt!

by Anonymousreply 411October 24, 2020 1:38 PM

R407 yes please post the link!!

by Anonymousreply 412October 24, 2020 2:13 PM

R410 Royal? I don't think so!

by Anonymousreply 413October 24, 2020 3:45 PM

R410 Tell us more!

by Anonymousreply 414October 24, 2020 5:51 PM

For those interested here is a phone interview with Raniere that aired on NBC Nightly News last night.

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by Anonymousreply 415October 24, 2020 6:16 PM

Here is the print version if you can't watch the NBC one.

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by Anonymousreply 416October 24, 2020 6:20 PM

r412, copy the code below and then paste it into the decoder at the link, it'll convert the code into the link to the file on mega which you can then either stream or download: aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWdhLm56L2ZvbGRlci9mTmx5V1Q1WiNPelV0TlZqemE4NWN6RDBQTXNyeW9n

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by Anonymousreply 417October 24, 2020 9:21 PM

Fuck, take out the spaces and dashes between "i - 9" and "6 - R"

by Anonymousreply 418October 24, 2020 9:22 PM

The Starz documentary is much better but I definitely recommend watching at least a few episodes of The Vow first. You then get this second layer of the Starz documentary as others have mentioned particularly seeing how Mark Vicente comes across when he’s not pulling the strings of the documentary.

by Anonymousreply 419October 25, 2020 8:39 PM

Episode Two is up. You may need an ad blocker for this site -

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by Anonymousreply 420October 26, 2020 6:03 AM

After watching the first two episodes of Seduced it’s pretty clear that Mark is a monster. Bonnie is complicit, too, but in a few reaction shots of her when Keith is peddling some outrageous shit you can see the doubt registering in her eyes.

by Anonymousreply 421October 26, 2020 10:44 AM

Father Tomas' ho is so needy. I think it would be more realistic if he were more asexual and not a red-blooded het Latin lover.

by Anonymousreply 422October 26, 2020 11:00 AM

LOL wrong thread. Apologies.

by Anonymousreply 423October 26, 2020 11:01 AM

It’s easy to judge these folks, but if you don’t have a strong sense of self - someone who is looking for answers - and a group of astute people present you with this idyllic situation and hone in on your weaknesses, it’s not hard to see how these people became indoctrinated by this cult. And the Jim Jones cult, some of the key women were just as complicit and involved in keeping up the facade.

I got involved in a personal development organization a few years ago and although not a cult, many think it is because of certain characteristics. I got a lot out of it, but I can see how certain individuals can get sucked into the “culture”. There is a lot of focus on recruitment, paying for trainings to go to the the level, and a lot of peer pressure used to control and manipulate others. There are also a lot of charismatic members who thrive of the notoriety and power (lots of life coach types). These people flourish in group like this and are used strategically in the same way the main players in this doc were used. Much of the inner politics of The Vow reminded me of those inner leadership circles, with a majority of members oblivious to what is going on beyond what they are “sold” in courses, etc

It’s sad because these orgs play on people’s sense belonging and desire to make their lives and the world a better place. However, unchecked power, personal agendas, money and politics seem to always destroy that reality.

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by Anonymousreply 424October 26, 2020 2:41 PM

An acquaintance of mine who had recently become a closer friend started mentioning this group called Landmark. At first, it seemed like some kind of job coaching or really basic personal development "free clinic" he found- and I didn't think anything of it. But pretty soon he seemed to only be surrounding himself with Landmark members and was talking about it all the time. He had a fundraiser I attended, and it was 90% Landmark. I still didn't think anything was weird - just that he had new friends and that they were especially supportive.

Fast forward, I attended his birthday (by myself) and assumed it was going to be a mix of gay people, maybe family, etc. At a bar so all good. Have some drinks and make an appearance. I found myself in conversation with various people - and found it pretty solid small talk. They all seemed cool. But as the night went on, I was the only one left *not* already in the group, I learned, and I was being asked questions like "are you happy in life?" and then, one woman pulled me aside and started pressuring me to come to an introduction meeting for Landmark.. at this point several people were surrounding me and everything clicked. I started seeing them all as cult members who weren't just being friendly, but wanted me to join their group. I wonder if I appeared lost to them since I showed up alone and am single, and dealing with job transition type of issues.

I'm already a very "anti-cult" (followed the NXIVM story from beginning) and even anti-"group think" type of person, so I was completely put off. Sorry.. not a chance.

My friend then started calling me a lot, which was unusual. So I just let the calls go and said it wasn't a good time for me to talk. I was getting texts and Facebook messages to come to these meetings from him and other people.

I googled the group and while it's pretty mild compared to NXIVM, it has the same concept of a pyramid scheme where you bring people in and get money from it, hoping they pay for classes, trips and group activity. It has the emotional element of standing up and speaking of your deep inner struggles.

Anyway, I think he finally got the hint and we completely grew apart. We are now back to distant acquaintances.

by Anonymousreply 425October 26, 2020 3:07 PM

If you think you hated Mark before, wait’ll you see episode two of Seduced. The Vow’s vagueness and attempt to paint him as a hero makes a lot more sense if you watch the other one.

by Anonymousreply 426October 26, 2020 3:32 PM

Landmark is one of the oldest operating personal development cults. It grew out of EST when EST had to fold.

It is super creepy.

by Anonymousreply 427October 26, 2020 3:33 PM

I'm watching both documentaries, and Seduced (Starz) is the better one. You get a better sense of just how dangerous Keith was. With his men's group it appears that they were going to be militarized. It also sounds like he was going to lead his cult down the Jonestown path.

by Anonymousreply 428October 26, 2020 3:42 PM

Mark is probably fuming right now! Probably why he tweeted this.

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by Anonymousreply 429October 26, 2020 4:07 PM

Mark's eyewear also clues us in that he ain't right.

by Anonymousreply 430October 26, 2020 4:23 PM

These things seem like religion for people that don’t want religion. It’s not exactly an improvement.

by Anonymousreply 431October 26, 2020 4:49 PM

R421 - Now I definitely want to see Seduced. I had an inkling that The Vow was angling for us to see Mark and the others with too much of a "poor poor pitiful me" slant. I wonder if I can just buy it via Amazon Prime - I'll research that. I don't want to deal with signing up for yet another streaming service, even for a free trial. I'll get email adverts forever!

by Anonymousreply 432October 26, 2020 5:30 PM

R425 - ugh that's such a familiar and horrifying story. I went through something similar with a friend caught up in EST. Not necessarily a personality cult but people in the MLM Amway org also seem indoctrinated to a degree. Another one I've been pressured to join is Avatar (linked). In this day and age, how can people fail to realize what these organizations are doing? It's all so creepy, but I'm here for the eventual exposés!

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by Anonymousreply 433October 26, 2020 5:38 PM

LOL about Mark’s eyewear. The Vow really shows off his love of Abercrombie as well.

by Anonymousreply 434October 26, 2020 6:54 PM

r414, Sara and I have mutual friends, who has been a NXIVM member. On the two times I met her I wasn't aware of the controversy. But she's an ice queen and her husband isn't much better. Probably would have been nicer if she thought I could benefit her in any way. Still interested in knowing why she wasn't indicted like her sister.

As for my friend, I've avoided asking him how much he knew, but now I have to. It's become the elephant in the room. But the pandemic has prevented our seeing each other with any frequency.

by Anonymousreply 435October 26, 2020 9:45 PM

Her sister?

Was this sister mentioned anywhere in the documentary?

by Anonymousreply 436October 26, 2020 10:01 PM

R436, that poster is talking about Sara Bronfman and her sister Clare, not Sarah Edmonson.

Apologies for the name misspellings.

by Anonymousreply 437October 26, 2020 10:03 PM

Mark Vicente cried (cried!) when India went to work for Pierce Brosnan. And you know who that reminded me of? Michael Jackson. He used to cry when boys didn't want to sleep in his bed.

by Anonymousreply 438October 27, 2020 6:21 AM

I’m finding it hard to sympathize with India, she seems like a spoiled airhead

by Anonymousreply 439October 27, 2020 6:24 AM

R439, uh, yeah. Those types are the only ones who could afford to be in the cult to begin with.

by Anonymousreply 440October 27, 2020 6:34 AM

Keith is to be sentenced today. From watching The Vow and now Seduced, Keith continually hits me as so irritatingly pompous, spouting his bullshit mumbo jumbo as though it is some brilliant insight into the meaning of life. You have to entrap people in this stuff when they're young, because once you get to my age (55), you can spot con men like him a mile away. Or at least, you should.

by Anonymousreply 441October 27, 2020 12:41 PM

The CBC podcast 'Uncover: Escaping Nxium' is much more informative, even though it's largely structured around Sarah Edmundson. (The podcast journalist is a childhood friend/acquaintance of Sarah's). Check it out.

by Anonymousreply 442October 27, 2020 12:48 PM

India and Mark are giving victim statements, as is Camila of r181 and r182, the woman who was raped by Keith when she was underage and kept in a locked room for two years by Lauren.

by Anonymousreply 443October 27, 2020 1:34 PM

Mark is a victim?

by Anonymousreply 444October 27, 2020 1:40 PM

Seduced on Starz is way better because Mark and. co aren't involved to help shape their narrative of reduced complicity.

by Anonymousreply 445October 27, 2020 1:56 PM

Mark is such a whiny bitch.

by Anonymousreply 446October 27, 2020 2:42 PM

I hope they surprise Mark today and throw him in prison, where he belongs.

by Anonymousreply 447October 27, 2020 2:45 PM

He's no fool. All that crying kept him out of jail.

by Anonymousreply 448October 27, 2020 3:43 PM

It's not the crying. He got an immunity deal for testifying.

by Anonymousreply 449October 27, 2020 3:44 PM

Nicki Clyne is in the heezy

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by Anonymousreply 450October 27, 2020 4:30 PM

But are they dancing?

by Anonymousreply 451October 27, 2020 4:33 PM

In her taped victim statement, Sarah admitted that DOS tried to split her and Nippy up.

by Anonymousreply 452October 27, 2020 5:26 PM

In this audio recording played during Keith Raniere's 2019 trial, he and actor Allison Mack discuss branding women in DOS, a slave-master group tied to NXIVM.

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by Anonymousreply 453October 27, 2020 6:15 PM

India revealed in her victim statement that Keith’s nickname for Urban Farmer Rachel (aka Michele Hatchette) was the N-word.

by Anonymousreply 454October 27, 2020 8:06 PM

Mark’s statement:

[quote]Beyond Keith Raniere’s crimes as documented in your court, there are moral crimes this man has committed. Specifically against those that were under his care. The crimes were willful and intended to cause maximum damage.Your Honor, I spent 12 years studying this man. He has a belief that he is the next evolution of human-kind. Beyond worldly ethics and morality. Far superior to this court. He thinks he breathes the rarified air of an awakened genius. But he is none of those things. He is a malicious, petty, evil and dangerously vengeful sociopath who thrills at our pain, and yet barely a glimmer of that excitement is visible on his blank face and his dormant eyes. He has been a lascivious little toddler with too much power and ZERO accountability. He has stolen hundreds of years from all his victims and poisoned their existence… poisoned my existence… and he needs to be held accountable

by Anonymousreply 455October 27, 2020 8:09 PM

anyone trying to decide if they should bother to watch Seduced after they have already watched the hbo one- seduced pretty much opens with Keith saying 'you want a rape-able baby? because I can make a baby rape-able'

by Anonymousreply 456October 27, 2020 8:49 PM

Seduced is vastly superior to The Vow

by Anonymousreply 457October 27, 2020 8:56 PM

120 years!

by Anonymousreply 458October 27, 2020 8:58 PM

Keith deserves every minute of his sentence and then some, but Mark is in no position to pontificate, not that it has stopped him.

by Anonymousreply 459October 27, 2020 9:03 PM

Wow 120 years! Awesome!

by Anonymousreply 460October 27, 2020 9:29 PM

Article on Raniere's sentencing

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by Anonymousreply 461October 27, 2020 9:38 PM

No more volleyball :(

by Anonymousreply 462October 27, 2020 10:19 PM

Prison.

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by Anonymousreply 463October 27, 2020 10:33 PM

R462 Volleyball in the prison yard!

by Anonymousreply 464October 27, 2020 11:13 PM

Seth Rogen went to summer break with Sarah Edmonson

So glad Keith got a lot of time in prison, they better not go easy on Nancy Salzman

by Anonymousreply 465October 28, 2020 12:17 AM

Now Keithos can spend the rest of this life starting prison cults.

by Anonymousreply 466October 28, 2020 12:25 AM

Aw now will poor victimized Mark be able to tell what a good guy is? His explanation for allowing his wife to sleep in a dog bed?

Everything about Mark and Sarah irritates me.

by Anonymousreply 467October 28, 2020 12:26 AM

Read somewhere that Nancy is facing 3-4 years. Because she pleaded guilty.

by Anonymousreply 468October 28, 2020 1:13 AM

I don't know the charges against her R468, but if it is racketeering It is usually 15 years.

by Anonymousreply 469October 28, 2020 3:40 AM

Nancy Salzman better get more than 3 years. That bitch whored her daughter out to Keith and look how she betrayed all those people. She was the mastermind behind all this bullshit right with Keith.

by Anonymousreply 470October 28, 2020 3:45 AM

Confused about how, say, one Bronfman sister was charged and the other wasn’t.

Or how Allison Mack was charged and Nicki aclyne wasn’t. I guess there was a lack of evidence regarding the latter?

by Anonymousreply 471October 28, 2020 5:09 AM

Ugh, you guys convinced me to subscribe to Starz to watch Seduced!! I hope you're all happy!!

by Anonymousreply 472October 28, 2020 5:10 AM

The only negative thing I have to say about Seduced vs The Vow is that the former is unlikely to feature Nippy In A Towel

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by Anonymousreply 473October 28, 2020 6:00 AM

Starz 2nd episode describes the expensive classes they had to take in more detail.

by Anonymousreply 474October 28, 2020 6:22 AM

Allison Mack is currently being allowed to participate in online Gender and Women's Studies courses at UC Berkeley without the knowledge or consent of other students, even though many of them are teens or barely out of their teens and the classes often require students to share a lot of personal information about themselves. She was given free access to dozens of young women's names, photos, email addresses, locations and more via the courses.

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by Anonymousreply 475October 28, 2020 6:25 AM

R475, the only relevant bit of data in that is she’s taking Gender Studies, which is 3rd Wave Feminism, which is male centered “feminism”, which is basically exactly what Keith was teaching

by Anonymousreply 476October 28, 2020 6:28 AM

Keith is going to Trans in prison. Wait and see.

by Anonymousreply 477October 28, 2020 6:38 AM

R477 You mean Queef, in that case.

Do prisons bother separating people like Keith from the regular population? I can see him setting up NXIVM 2.0 in prison. Lot's of unloved people in there to take advantage of, I bet.

by Anonymousreply 478October 28, 2020 6:42 AM

The theme song to the vow by Son Lux features guest vocals from Bonnie Piesse, as per the closing credits.

Days we were young

We took photographs of everything we could see

We knew we were

Impervious no matter how we'd bleed

We never fought for breath

Priest and prophetess

We were nothing we would defy

by Anonymousreply 479October 28, 2020 7:56 AM

You forgot the ridiculous shriek: “aaaaaaaahhh-Ooooooooo!!!!”, and the low registers she’s exploring.

I’ve seen Nippy in person, it’s gross.

by Anonymousreply 480October 28, 2020 2:47 PM

I don’t know if anyone realizes this, but the Vow Season 2, can’t have a Keith interview. The documentary is made by ex-NXIVM members, and he’s not allowed contact with them.

by Anonymousreply 481October 28, 2020 2:51 PM

R481, you’re right! And the judge has also forbidden him from speaking to anyone, publicly or otherwise, about NXIVM. Ha ha, Mark.

by Anonymousreply 482October 28, 2020 5:31 PM

I doubt Keith will try to revive NXIVM in person; no one there to shake down for $$$.

by Anonymousreply 483October 28, 2020 5:50 PM

From what we can see in the last episode, the interviews have already taken place.

by Anonymousreply 484October 28, 2020 6:10 PM

R483, he didn’t seem to spend the money on anything but lawsuits and living expenses. The control and mindfucking and actual fucking was his motivation.

by Anonymousreply 485October 28, 2020 6:16 PM

Nancy Salzman is only mildly less repulsive. I hope she gets 10 years.

by Anonymousreply 486October 28, 2020 6:39 PM

I read an article they put peanut butter in Keith's shoes in prison also they would put shitty wads of toilet paper in his cell since I guess he has no sense of smell

by Anonymousreply 487October 29, 2020 1:41 AM

Really R487, you can't link the article.

by Anonymousreply 488October 29, 2020 3:36 AM

I watched the first episode of Seduced. At "V Week" in front of the whole group of his followers, Keith said that some Greek father was sexually training his daughter and she enjoyed every minute of it until the outside world told her it was bad.

Did none of these idiots see what he was trying to do to them?

by Anonymousreply 489October 29, 2020 11:35 PM

I’m completely in love with Nippy. What a hunk.

by Anonymousreply 490October 30, 2020 12:19 AM

So yummy

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by Anonymousreply 491October 30, 2020 12:25 AM

Nippy is so gross, needs to get some sun. Ew!

by Anonymousreply 492October 30, 2020 12:38 AM

The person who has seen Nippy in person: spill!

by Anonymousreply 493October 30, 2020 1:05 AM

An immunity deal, like Mark managed to swindle, wouldn't cover additional crimes that might come to light, right? It would only cover what the FBI already knew about-? Someone in or who knew about what was going on inside of the secret men's version of of DOS (not SOP, that was public) should spill.

by Anonymousreply 494October 30, 2020 1:24 AM

Nippy reminds me of Chris Pratt, they both look like they smell of stale sweat

by Anonymousreply 495October 30, 2020 3:25 AM

The one that is really creeping me out is Allison Mack. I think she would’ve joined any cult. She would Definitely be the one handing out the Kool-Aid.

by Anonymousreply 496October 30, 2020 4:30 AM

I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of Allison Mack's mouth, she seems to always be acting.

by Anonymousreply 497October 31, 2020 3:34 AM

Allison Mack seems like she's "acting" when she's acting or simply talking to someone. She screams BFA

by Anonymousreply 498October 31, 2020 5:54 AM

Chloe Fineman has a hilarious impression of the fucking stupid way Allison Mack enunciates every syllable and seems to be incapable of getting a complete sentence out on her Instagram story highlights. She sounds exactly like her!

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by Anonymousreply 499October 31, 2020 6:06 AM

She is really good. The video that followed has her organizing wigs for a SNL actress, but she never says who it is. Anyone recognize the blond actress on the sofa?

by Anonymousreply 500October 31, 2020 12:48 PM

R500...Chloe is the actress on the sofa and the other woman is organizer she hired. Do you have prosopagnosia?

by Anonymousreply 501October 31, 2020 1:19 PM

I love how Chloe made her eyebrows super bushy. She does the best impressions.

by Anonymousreply 502October 31, 2020 2:19 PM

Chloe’s eyebrows are always bushy and gross.

by Anonymousreply 503October 31, 2020 2:56 PM

R501, having only ever seen her for about a minute playing Alison Mack and then seeing someone on her feed in a mask, I assumed it was her speaking. I did not think she might be the blurry figure on the sofa.

by Anonymousreply 504October 31, 2020 8:50 PM

I know she’s a victim herself and totally screwed up mentally by her evil mother, but I really wanted Nippy to punch Lauren Salzman in the mouth.

Did they ever adequately explain the dog bed scene? WTF??!?

by Anonymousreply 505October 31, 2020 10:17 PM

Punching Lauren in the nose would have been doing her a favor...yikes!

by Anonymousreply 506November 1, 2020 12:20 AM

I just don't understand how people could meet Keith and not immediately realise all his claims about his IQ and supposed talents were bullshit.

I can understand brainwashing over a long period of time, but not how people are stupid enough to stay there long enough for it to get that bad.

by Anonymousreply 507November 1, 2020 12:38 AM

Who spends that kind of money for classes for a cult?

by Anonymousreply 508November 1, 2020 12:44 AM

Catherine Oxenburg seemed to be enjoying the screen-time a little too much. Mark seems like a total creep who got seriously lucky in not being charged, given how much damage he caused himself to other members.

by Anonymousreply 509November 1, 2020 12:44 AM

^This

by Anonymousreply 510November 1, 2020 2:42 AM

Why did the documentaries and outcries and investigative reporting all seem to go so easy on Salzman?

by Anonymousreply 511November 1, 2020 5:12 AM

R511 I think Seduced is a bit more critical of Nancy than The Vow. Apparently she’s quite ill with cancer, I think, that could also have something to do with her portrayal.

by Anonymousreply 512November 1, 2020 5:38 AM

The moment that Allison Mack met cult leader Keith Raniere

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by Anonymousreply 513November 1, 2020 5:47 AM

I think Nancy be a blindspot in the docs, and other media about the cult, because it’s likely that only she and Keith know what deal they struck with each other and how they planned the con out and neither of them are telling. I find that arrangement to be one of the most compelling aspects of this clusterfuck and hope she, at least, gives some kind of death bed confession about how that all shook out.

by Anonymousreply 514November 1, 2020 5:47 AM

Allison Mack singing and crying to Keith Raniere -- disturbing

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by Anonymousreply 515November 1, 2020 5:48 AM

R513 He started to brainwash her almost instantly, separate her from her interests. Scary.

by Anonymousreply 516November 1, 2020 5:55 AM

The singing is so cringe. YIKES all for that little troll.

by Anonymousreply 517November 1, 2020 5:09 AM

R516 Very creepy indeed. I do t even get Keith’s point about how, what, people who can’t live crest art. Huh!?!?! I can’t with this!! If only AM had read some James Baldwin before meeting Keith!!

“ Art has to be a kind of confession. I don’t mean a true confession in the sense of that dreary magazine. The effort it seems to me, is: if you can examine and face your life, you can discover the terms with which you are connected to other lives, and they can discover them, too — the terms with which they are connected to other people. This has happened to every one of us, I’m sure. You read something which you thought only happened to you, and you discovered it happened 100 years ago to Dostoyevsky. This is a very great liberation for the suffering, struggling person, who always thinks that they are alone. This is why art is important.”!!!!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 518November 1, 2020 5:10 AM

Crest = create

by Anonymousreply 519November 1, 2020 5:11 AM

She’s on a hit t.v. show with lots of eye candy. And that is what she goes for. Big nerd con artist.

by Anonymousreply 520November 1, 2020 5:22 AM

Wasn’t Mack’s supposedly fake collateral that her brother molested her and her parents refused to do anything about it?

by Anonymousreply 521November 1, 2020 10:55 AM

R509 Let's face it, when was the last time anyone talked about Catherine Oxenberg? She must be loving the attention. I'm not mad at her, though. She was stupid enough to sign her daughter up for classes, yes, but at least she came to her senses before SHE was sucked in.

by Anonymousreply 522November 1, 2020 1:29 PM

R515 What was with NXIVM and a capella singing?

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by Anonymousreply 523November 1, 2020 1:33 PM

Aren't they going easy on Nancy because she pleaded guilty? Probably gave the Feds a lot of "collateral" on Keith.

by Anonymousreply 524November 1, 2020 2:14 PM

Gotta hand it to India for going all out with Seduced. Not sure what term I'd use to describe it, but she's got some nerve/balls to go on national tv and discuss Keith Raniere eating her out for HOURS?

by Anonymousreply 525November 2, 2020 12:35 AM

Can you imagine fucking that troll? I doubt he has a big dick.

by Anonymousreply 526November 2, 2020 12:39 AM

Why was Keith so fucking obsessed with RAPING BABIES?!?! CHRIST!!!

by Anonymousreply 527November 2, 2020 12:45 AM

I’m watching Seduced and since there’s no thread, I guess the discussion for it is here. So why does he keep this cult in Albany of all places? I mean, they grow so big and have these centers everywhere, but stay in the capitol of New York? Really WTF?

by Anonymousreply 528November 2, 2020 1:23 AM

Yeah, it seems like most people are talking about both docu series here r528. Albany does seem very random. The seduction assignment is just weird.

by Anonymousreply 529November 2, 2020 1:32 AM

Don’t worry, Keith was impotent.

by Anonymousreply 530November 2, 2020 1:50 AM

He knocked up dozens of the women and forced most of them to have abortions. A local abortion provider made a statement about one of the members scheduling procedures for the others on a very regular basis. He murdered the lesbian he got pregnant after she burst into a class and publicly accused him. And two of the other women ran away and went into hiding and had the kids.

by Anonymousreply 531November 2, 2020 1:53 AM

Don't remember where but someone mentioned women around him were disappearing - i.e. he poisoned them somehow? I don't think it was about the ones who left and were declared suppressive.

by Anonymousreply 532November 2, 2020 2:04 AM

R532 Was it Sarah who said she noticed women around Keith becoming sick? I think it might've been her.

by Anonymousreply 533November 2, 2020 2:54 AM

Could be her, R533. I just remember someone saying something to that effect but not elaborating, and wonder what it was about. Any details?

by Anonymousreply 534November 2, 2020 3:01 AM

Watching Seduced makes me really angry for wasting my time with The Vow. They left out so much about Keith's dark past. Fuck Mark and fuck Sarah. They should be in jail, too.

by Anonymousreply 535November 2, 2020 12:37 PM

So, Seduced is doing the deep dive into the female secret society, but I didn’t see Vow, did the dive into the male secret society? Was it set up in structure the same way with the gathering of collateral, nudes and suggestive poses? Did the men get their pubis area branded as well?

by Anonymousreply 536November 2, 2020 1:15 PM

Mark should be spending life in prison. He’s dangerous.

by Anonymousreply 537November 2, 2020 1:27 PM

I thought I had clicked on the Great British Baking Show thread.

I could not figure out what Mark could have done that that would have justified claims that he was dangerous and deserves prison.

His matcha crèpe cake was not that bad.

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by Anonymousreply 538November 2, 2020 3:18 PM

R538 he deserves a life sentence for his not particularly kawaii avocado cake. Now back to the matter at hand, I’ve got episode 3 of seduced all ready to watch tonight and I can’t wait. I didn’t bother with the last episode of The Vow as I was so hacked off with it after starting Seduced.

by Anonymousreply 539November 2, 2020 3:51 PM

At least Sarah came out with her photos and kept trying to get everything in the media, explained all the stuff she did recruiting other people and seemed really regretful about it. Seems like Mark just provided some recordings and tried to make excuses for himself without actually elaborating on what he did..

by Anonymousreply 540November 2, 2020 3:59 PM

Mark has managed to distinguish himself as particularly loathsome in a field of distasteful people...quite an achievement given the group we are talking about. I can’t manage to feel even slightly sorry for him, and generally I am considered a soft touch.

by Anonymousreply 541November 2, 2020 4:03 PM

I want Catherine Oxenberg to start a lifestyle brand. Like goop without the vagina eggs. Homewares, books, anti-aging serum, I'd buy the lot.

by Anonymousreply 542November 2, 2020 6:03 PM

Here’s a nice comparison of the two series.

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by Anonymousreply 543November 2, 2020 6:04 PM

Seduced has so much more information than The Vow. He deserved every year he got.😈😈

by Anonymousreply 544November 3, 2020 4:16 AM

Now that he has no hope of ever getting out of prison, I hope Keith fucking spills about everything Mark did in SOP and the more secret men’s group and that scumbag winds up spending life in the clink, too.

by Anonymousreply 545November 3, 2020 5:59 AM

^ Not gonna happen. I'm pretty sure I read that as part of Keith's sentencing, he's not allowed to talk about NXIVM at all!

by Anonymousreply 546November 3, 2020 9:04 AM

r546, you realize there's a difference between making a confession to law enforcement and recording a podcast over a prison phone, right?

by Anonymousreply 547November 3, 2020 9:33 AM

Mark can’t be charged since he’s a whistleblower. Convenient.

by Anonymousreply 548November 3, 2020 1:23 PM

r548, he can't be charged for the specific crimes listed in his immunity deal. He can absolutely be charged for crimes that fall outside of that deal. Including all the crimes he committed in SOP (for which the footage conveniently disappeared) and crimes committed in the secret men's version of DOS (which, come on, you know was a rape gang). All they need is someone else who was involved, like Keith, who has nothing left to lose, to provide evidence.

by Anonymousreply 549November 3, 2020 2:10 PM

Stupid question but how is Keith not allowed to talk about NXIVM in prison?

And I imagine he’s already brought half the prison population into his cult. I don’t get it, but his power of persuasion can’t be denied...

by Anonymousreply 550November 3, 2020 6:46 PM

Does Keith have a large penis?

by Anonymousreply 551November 3, 2020 8:01 PM

See r151 - he claims to be 7.5"

by Anonymousreply 552November 3, 2020 9:48 PM

r550, a gag order on the subject was part of his sentence. In actual practice, he’s likely to either be moved to a super-max, where there are 3 year restrictions on outside communication and solitary confinement, or a ward in a max with similar restrictions.

by Anonymousreply 553November 4, 2020 7:35 AM

Are all the episodes of Seduced out on Starz? I want to do the 7 day free trial to binge watch it, then cancel.

by Anonymousreply 554November 6, 2020 8:01 AM

R554, not yet. The last episode airs on Sunday, but I’ve seen some people on The Vow subreddit say that the eps are available a day early on the mobile app. TheNXVIMCase subreddit is clearly being modded by either Mark or Parlato. But most likely Mark. He keeps deleting threads that are negative about Mark and posting incoherent screeds full of purple prose about Mark being a victim and the women in the group being as culpable as Keith.

by Anonymousreply 555November 6, 2020 8:05 AM

^Wow, what a slime ball. My sympathy towards Mark wore thin in The Vow. He had the most coverage. Crying crocodile tears at every opportunity and whining about how HE was a victim. Bitch, you didn't have to fuck that troll (Keith) or starve yourself or get branded. STFU and let the women tell their story. They don't need YOU to tell it for them.....and that includes the whiney, over wrought "victim" statement at Keith's trial.

by Anonymousreply 556November 6, 2020 8:27 AM

Mark is a monster. I full expect him to be back in the news for murdering Bonnie in about 10 years.

by Anonymousreply 557November 6, 2020 8:31 AM

He is sticking to Bonnie like glue because he doesn't want her to come out with all his dirty laundry,. Mark has to control her to control his image as victim. He was secretly filming her at home and making her sleep in a dog bed on the floor as "penance". That's just the tip of the iceberg, for sure.

by Anonymousreply 558November 6, 2020 8:36 AM

I really want Keith to make a huge confession about everything that went down in the secret Men’s version of DOS so Mark can be indicted. There is nothing I would be surprised by him having done. And I also think more women than just Daniela were held physically captive.

by Anonymousreply 559November 6, 2020 8:41 AM

I missed the Episode where Bonnie broke away. What opened her eyes? I saw that Keith was walking with her at 3am, which would have creeped out any woman.

by Anonymousreply 560November 6, 2020 10:36 AM

R560, they don’t reveal that, but my guess is she got tipped off that the FBI was doing surveillance and about to do a raid or even had someone embedded and maybe, as the wife of Keith’s right hand man and blackmail hoarder, she was offered a deal of flipping or spending decades in prison. The Vow is intentionally murky with chronology to obscure what really happened and how guilty Mark, Bonnie, Sarah and Nippy are.

by Anonymousreply 561November 6, 2020 10:39 AM

Just for fun...

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by Anonymousreply 562November 9, 2020 2:15 AM

Holy fuck, on Seduced completely by coincidence Catherine Oxenberg is randomly walking around Brooklyn on a photo shoot for a magazine article about the cult and poses on a stoop next door to the building that her daughter is in hiding. Then Niki Clyne posts a picture online from a famous P.V., Mexico landmark that gives away their location and leads to the Mexican authorities arresting Keith and his extradition back to the US. And finally, India packs up Alison Mack’s belongings for storage, but feels there a few items that are too personal so she takes them with her. One is a box of flashdrives that contain key evidence for the trial and she hears directly from Keith voice that the branding symbol is actually his initials and it tips the balance for her away from the cult.

by Anonymousreply 563November 9, 2020 2:17 AM

I loved the fact that he was hiding in the closet when the FBI closed in on him.

by Anonymousreply 564November 9, 2020 2:23 AM

I'm not sure if I can fully buy into the line that "anyone" can become brainwashed by a cult. However, I suppose it's a technique employed by deprogrammers/therapists to make the victims feel less stupid?

by Anonymousreply 565November 9, 2020 2:26 AM

R563, completely by coincidence? Somehow I doubt that people magazine did not know where they asked Oxenberg to pose. Or that someone is too stupid to realize that a photo would reveal their location. Or that someone grabs a bunch of flash drives without thinking that they might be important.

by Anonymousreply 566November 9, 2020 2:55 AM

I can believe that India was stupid enough to get brainwashed and that she feels remorseful for the other women she included - Mark only feels remorseful that he got caught.

by Anonymousreply 567November 9, 2020 7:10 AM

So, Mark admitted on the stand that Keith approached him to take over all of NXIVM, should something happen to him or if he decided to retire. He wanted Mark to be his successor. And Mark is still pretending to be a victim? They need to find something to throw that man in jail.

by Anonymousreply 568November 9, 2020 9:47 AM

India does seem pretty dim. Seems like the best thing Catherine Oxenberg can do for her now is pay for India to get a college degree and develop some critical thinking skills.

by Anonymousreply 569November 9, 2020 10:31 AM

India isn’t dim, she’s quite intelligent. When you’re an impressionable young person looking for the meaning of life, it can happen. Think about all the people who are really passionate about yoga, go to yoga retreats and talk about it nonstop. Or, people into CrossFit, or any sort of self help. Catholics? Of course. Everyone in Corporate America, those who do Landmark. Some Scrum groups are cultish.

by Anonymousreply 570November 9, 2020 1:54 PM

Uhmm...no. I work with young people and even those with enthusiasms are not as dim as the NXIVM. Or maybe the better work is directionless.

Sarah with her main career goal being fame rather than accomplishment, Mark with his need for external affirmation, and India with no discernible ambition. The people who do these other disciplines you describe tend to be goal-driven people searching for a goal. (Which is a problem of another sort.)

The NXIVM folk seem to rather empty without much sense of themselves as active agents. There are such people, even successful ones. However the successful ones cannot really analyse how they got there and so cannot go forward. (Mark built little on his successful film of over a decade ago.) They were not looking for goals. They were looking to get a desire to have a goal.

You see this alot with the children of great wealth. They have every resource, but no sense of self as an agent in the world.

by Anonymousreply 571November 9, 2020 2:35 PM

I found the introduction of India’s “two dads” shoehorned into this last episode weird timing. First it made it sound like they were a gay couple that had her rather than the partners/husbands of Catherine. Her bio dad from the beginning seemed more like a sperm donor situation rather than anyone who acknowledged her or having any active role in her life. Was he maybe an affair of Catherine’s who remained married and India’s existence needed to be hidden? Casper was a more potential dad surrogate, but while he was mentioned early on there didn’t seem like much of a connection between the two. Then they slip in these photos with her and say how important their presence was in her recovery, which was out of the blue.

I would think another kind of person that cults would target, as do child molesters, are people who grew up in single family households. And then they use that status to ingratiate themselves, but it didn’t necessarily sound like Keith worked that daddiless angle on India. That circle of women would have been more familiar to her and influential though, so that power structure may have been a tool.

by Anonymousreply 572November 9, 2020 3:43 PM

So, Alison and Niki were ordered to fake a relationship and get married by Keith because of immigration issues with Niki being Canadian? Are either one of them even a lesbian to begin with? If not why didn’t Keith just have her marry one of the loyal male members? The predatory lesbian angle seemed to have been very downplayed by the press, which I would have assumed some aspects of the press would have gone after. Of course it doesn’t look good for gay marriage. Can a third party like ICE declare a marriage invalid and annulled? From what I saw Niki is still in the country and is one of those dancing outside the prison for Keith. Also there tends to be tons of Canadian actors here without problem,s, don’t they just need to leave the country every once in a while and return to restart their visas? Getting married seems like a complicated solution to an easy problem. Nikki being a key person working for the cult in a very unique capacity should have been proof enough for Nexivm to declare her an essential worker that needed a green card right?

by Anonymousreply 573November 9, 2020 3:58 PM

Both ladies are probably going to prison. So hopefully they are lesbians.

by Anonymousreply 574November 9, 2020 5:00 PM

Niki has not be charged in the case R574.

by Anonymousreply 575November 9, 2020 5:12 PM

R575 Which makes the comment that maybe she knew what she was doing when she posted that picture from Mexico more suspect, that she might have led the authorities to Keith. But I also saw that she is among those dancing for Keith outside the prison.

by Anonymousreply 576November 9, 2020 5:37 PM

r572, India's bio dad went to prison when she was a baby and was locked up until she was maybe 12 or so.

by Anonymousreply 577November 9, 2020 5:39 PM

Dancing outside the prison. Is the comedy relief I needed.

by Anonymousreply 578November 9, 2020 5:58 PM

R578 I don’t think you know of what you speak. Niki either needs to be deprogrammed or in prison.

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by Anonymousreply 579November 9, 2020 6:11 PM

Do they not realize there's a row of guys at the windows beating off to them?

by Anonymousreply 580November 9, 2020 6:15 PM

Mark is so ugly! Why can't he fix that overbite?

by Anonymousreply 581November 9, 2020 9:30 PM

He’s even worse in person, and is a cranky old man.

by Anonymousreply 582November 9, 2020 10:10 PM

"Mark is so ugly! "

And he'll make you sleep in a dog bed and when you mention it later, he'll get mad that you're not bring respectful of his embarrassment for doing it!

by Anonymousreply 583November 10, 2020 12:24 AM

(R578) She’s just going to join another cult. Maybe Jared Leto’s

by Anonymousreply 584November 10, 2020 1:34 AM

The agenda of this series to absolve India, aka Unindicted Co-conspirator #2, was crystal clear after the last episode of Seduced. In her defense, she was very young when she got involved, and hate to say it, doesn’t seem too bright.

by Anonymousreply 585November 10, 2020 4:03 AM

R585 I don't think you're wrong. There's something very pitiable about being born to all that wealth and "prestige," yet ending up no more intelligent than a country rube.

I think that we'll have to wait a few years to get a solid documentary about NXIVM. It would be best if one were to be made without major involvement (e.g. production, direction, etc.) from former members. There needs to be a documentary done by a filmmaker who has a more critical eye.

by Anonymousreply 586November 10, 2020 4:09 AM

You have the power to speed-dial Prince Charles, you have to power to get your story made.

by Anonymousreply 587November 10, 2020 5:56 AM

R586, I have seen this a lot with children of wealth. Some are smart and ambitious. Others would be a manager at Kinkos if they were born into another family. Those are the ones I feel sorry for. Like India they are always looking for something that will make them feel at home in the class they were born into. And they almost never find it.

by Anonymousreply 588November 10, 2020 12:02 PM

India was a college drop out naive attractive and well connected. She was targeted by a sociopathic cult after her mother invited them into the family home. She’s not a Rhodes Scholar but she’s also the most sympathetic of all of the NXIVM crowd that’s come forward.

by Anonymousreply 589November 10, 2020 2:55 PM

It's hard to sympathize with stupid. Yeah she's not as evil as Mark nor is she as cunning as Sarah, but she's not innocent either!!

by Anonymousreply 590November 10, 2020 4:20 PM

Okay, I am watching Seduced and I now think the Vow is a fucking joke. When you watch the Vow, it isn't even clear that any crimes have been committed. Upthread, I was like, this dude just got put away for life and I was actually sympathetic. Seduced makes it CLEAR that Keith Raniere and Allison Mack are fucking criminals.

by Anonymousreply 591November 10, 2020 5:29 PM

Good article highlighting the shortcomings of The Vow.

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by Anonymousreply 592November 11, 2020 2:03 AM

I guess this thread is winding down -- and I am not sure it deserves a second thread -- but apparently the very hot Emiliano Salinas was having a gay affair with Alex Betancourt while they were both wrapped up in NXIVM.

by Anonymousreply 593November 11, 2020 8:28 AM

Someone start a new Vow/Seduced/NXIVM thread to discuss this.

by Anonymousreply 594November 11, 2020 8:58 AM

Maybe just a general discussion thread to follow?

by Anonymousreply 595November 11, 2020 9:17 AM

I started a new thread.

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by Anonymousreply 596November 11, 2020 10:10 AM

Niki blew Keith's cover, surprised she hasn't been ostracized. Probably why she is kissing butt dancing outside the prison.

by Anonymousreply 597November 13, 2020 2:09 AM

Well good for you R596

by Anonymousreply 598November 13, 2020 2:21 AM

Catherine Oxenberg really should be commended for the work she did - it was her name and reputation that really got the word out.

All those trashy tabloid shows and papers took up her cause - and then the mainstream media started to pay attention.

by Anonymousreply 599November 13, 2020 2:35 PM

And that she was willing to embarrass and humiliate her daughter in the process knowing she would take it that way and drive her further away in hopes that she would understand and forgive her one day. When I grew up in the 70s there seemed to be all kinds of organizations that you could have them abduct your child in a cult and deprogram them. I guess though you you can pretty much only do that these days if your child is under 18 years old? Otherwise you need to have them legally declare incompetent, which must be harder? But maybe there are groups that still do that for Scientology, JW and Mormons perhaps? I did watch some of the Lisa Rimini anti Scientology series since watching Seduced. Who knew celebrity would be good for something like escaping from a cult?

by Anonymousreply 600November 13, 2020 5:33 PM
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