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The Vow

Anyone watching this HBO doc series?

by Anonymousreply 418Yesterday at 1:22 PM

Not out where I am for a few weeks, alas.

What I want to know is how the fuck Grace Park is still working.

by Anonymousreply 108/26/2020

I watched the first two episodes and I'm hooked. It's the freakiest shit. I knew of the story, but to see how it all came about, how long it went on, and that this guy that got out recorded all his conversations is great.

by Anonymousreply 208/31/2020

I think it's a bit slow (can't believe this is a 9 parter) but I guess they wanted to show how "normal" people get brainwashed into a cult.

What really made Keith Raniere special was he got Clare Bronfman under his spell. She had deep pockets and could bankroll everything, he had more money than similar cult leaders. He was trying to go full scientology but branding his sex slaves leaves behind easy evidence.

by Anonymousreply 308/31/2020

I can't believe people were so gullible.

by Anonymousreply 408/31/2020

And what was with kissing everyone on the mouth? Like really?

by Anonymousreply 508/31/2020

It's a simple way to start grooming the woman r5 to your physical contact. Keith was a big sex addict.

by Anonymousreply 608/31/2020

I hate that all the episodes aren't released at once.

Also, isn't the branding his initials?

by Anonymousreply 709/01/2020

While some women were branded with a symbol that was just Keith's initials r7, a lot of women were branded with Keith's initials AND Allison Mack's initials.

by Anonymousreply 809/01/2020

I’ve now seen the first three episodes and, wow, it is some freaky shit. Very similar to the kind of systematic brainwashing that is used in Scientology. One thing about it is their training that one should live their life in a way that makes one comfortable, for the reason that it shows you’re stretching yourself. But in reality, it conditioned them to ignore their inner warnings about what they were getting into.

by Anonymousreply 909/06/2020

That rich bitch is still supporting him! I read it in the news the other day...did she even fuck the guy? Heard he couldn't even get hard!

by Anonymousreply 1009/06/2020

Reductive.

by Anonymousreply 1109/06/2020

Who here has had Nippy?

by Anonymousreply 1209/06/2020

It's really good. I agree the kissing the people on the lips. Creepy. And all the classes he made them do. Late night volleyball games. It took up their whole lives. Episode 3 talks about DOS. The women's group with the branding. Really sad. The whole Master and servant pyramid. It's so crazy because the people are quite intelligent. That they were duped by this douchebag.

by Anonymousreply 1309/06/2020

What's Allison Mack up to these days?

by Anonymousreply 1409/06/2020

Is it an black cast?

by Anonymousreply 1509/06/2020

Nippy is a former quarterback.

I bet he knows how to fuck.

by Anonymousreply 1609/07/2020

Why, every single time, are the majority of people in these cults failed actors?

by Anonymousreply 1709/07/2020

I think the actors,by nature of the type of people in that profession, are always looking for a way to be more successful- since their success is largely beyond their control. But these cults make them believe they can control their own success. In the acting profession, sometimes you really aren't right for the part, or don't have the right connections, or aren't sleeping with the right people.

by Anonymousreply 1809/07/2020

Very unpopular opinion forthcoming. Raniere was a freak and so was Mack but the women who joined in for the freakshow weren't any better. Mack is stupid and venal but so were these (adult ) woman who did Ranieres bidding. I am not interested in scapegoating Mac for behavior that multiple adults actively chose to engage in.

by Anonymousreply 1909/07/2020

Even if they’re both dumb for falling for this, I commend Marc and Sarah for their - what seems like - genuine remorse in recruiting others to the cult. They seem like they have a very genuine friendship, I wonder why they never dated.

by Anonymousreply 2009/07/2020

Cause I was in Star Wars...DUH!

by Anonymousreply 2109/07/2020

That Lauren bitch is completely psycho. Although I guess she's completely brainwashed because she was born into it. I feel extra sorry for her because her own mother got herself a nose job, but wouldn't even pay for her daughter to get one.

by Anonymousreply 2209/08/2020

What's Nancy and Lauren up to nowadays?

Or should I say Prefect and Master??

by Anonymousreply 2309/08/2020

Nancy is currently out on bond. Her daughter Lauren is currently on house arrest.

They are waiting to be sentenced. Right now basically everyone in NXIVM leadership has been found guilty and is waiting on their sentence.

by Anonymousreply 2409/08/2020

Somebody save me.....

by Anonymousreply 2509/08/2020

I wonder if any women have ever had the aha reality check right at the branding moment and just said fuck you psycho, you're not BRANDING me like a cow, and just left stark naked.

by Anonymousreply 2609/08/2020

RE why are actors more susceptible to cults.

My theory?

Many wannabe actors are really just uncomfortable being themselves and tell themselves that artistic satisfaction can only be discovered when they can become something they, intrinsically, are not. They are, therefore, identity searchers more than actors - but acting has a nice ring to it, so they simply take on that persona.

And, cults offer them the role of a lifetime - a brand new identity, with new rules, new rituals, new ways to succeed and even fail.

Or they're just drama whores and love the fucked up attention.

by Anonymousreply 2709/08/2020

I couldn't help but notice there were essentially no black people visible in the group shots r15. Looks like black people were not falling for this crap.

Also hearing Keith try to talk up the wonders of Albany, my sides!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 2809/08/2020

R28 That part made me laugh hard.

And then Nippy saying “I don’t want my kids raised in VANCOUVER” and desperately trying to get Sarah to move to Albany. True insanity.

by Anonymousreply 2909/08/2020

Kissing on the lips right when you meet someone and every time you see them? Really?? Who is okay with this shit?

by Anonymousreply 3009/08/2020

I'd kiss Nippy on the lips.

by Anonymousreply 3109/08/2020

Or fat people either. He put the women on strict diets. But his fat ass can barely play volleyball. So, I guess Keith is the only fat person allowed.

by Anonymousreply 3209/08/2020

I don't get why people flock to these "self-help" programs. I mean, everyone of them boils down to the same thing:

1. Strive to be your better self.

2. Believe in yourself.

3. Stop making excuses for your lack of success.

4. Don't give anything or anyone else power over your life.

Thank you. That will be $5000.

by Anonymousreply 3309/09/2020

I haven't watched yet and am curious if people feel like this is worth a 9 hour investment? The subject matter seems interesting, but does it really need that many hours to tell this story? The last HBO documentary I tried to watch was the McDonalds one, which was six hours long and should have been 90 minutes. I gave up after episode 3. Even Scientology only got a 2 hour movie.

by Anonymousreply 3409/09/2020

Was shocked to read in my independent research that Keith Raniere has 2 kids. The series is riveting and I can’t wait for the remaining episodes. When will HBO modernize and release all the episodes at once?

by Anonymousreply 3509/09/2020

Even other streaming platforms are moving away from that model r35. Amazon and Hulu are releasing more things on a weekly basis.

by Anonymousreply 3609/09/2020

(R34) it really is good. I watched the first three episodes. And I am really hooked. I got bored with the McDonald's one too. Atlanta child murders was really suspenseful. They give a lot of information that I never knew about.

by Anonymousreply 3709/09/2020

R34 - Agree with R37. I'm hooked completely after the first 3 episodes. This kind of religious/sex cult show is my catnip so it would have to be pretty shitty to bore me. I also loved Wild Wild Country which is (was?) on Netflix.

by Anonymousreply 3809/10/2020

Very good show. I don't know how anyone wouldn't figure out, "Oh, this is definitely a cult." within three minutes of the first meeting, what with the weird too-short stoles and the crazy lexicon, let alone until you get to the point where you are willing to be branded, treated like a literal slave, and offer up free blackmail material to keep you in line.

by Anonymousreply 3909/13/2020

They keep using the term "sex trafficking" on this show. Granted, certain women in NXIVM were groomed to be in a "slave" relationship with the leader and to have sex with him, but does this really fit the definition of "human trafficking?"

by Anonymousreply 4009/13/2020

^^Meant to say "sex trafficking"

by Anonymousreply 4109/13/2020

Actually I was right. NXIVM is accused of sex trafficking AND human trafficking. That's what I don't get.

by Anonymousreply 4209/13/2020

I think they're going to show a lot more of that stuff in episodes to come. I can't wait for the one tonight. They're going to show Catherine Oxenberg from Dynasty and her daughter.

by Anonymousreply 4309/13/2020

I watched the first four episodes today and I like it so far. I'm thinking buying Sarah's book.

by Anonymousreply 4409/13/2020

Wow. How many weak-willed people ARE there in the world?! How can you be so sure that there is some better life that you could be living that you can't accept the life you do have? And then, you come to the conclusion that the way to achieve that better life is to become a literal slave to another person. I can't imagine being that gullible and have NO level of self-confidence.

by Anonymousreply 4509/13/2020

Did we ever come to the conclusion that Allison was the Mack Daddy or the Daddy Mack?

I guess either way it is just Wiggida-wiggida-wiggida WHACK!

by Anonymousreply 4609/13/2020

I thought I was pretty smart and could follow basic intellectual ideas but 90% of the points thrown about by Keith and the sheep profiled on this show sound like word salad. I know cults use various techniques to rope in the weak, and they have know what to say to sell their shit but man, the spiels tonight were epic gibberish to my ears. Does any of that crap fly or am I missing their philosophy?

by Anonymousreply 4709/13/2020

So what happened to Kristen Kreuk?

by Anonymousreply 4809/13/2020

R48 She was in the CW's Beauty and the Beast show for a few years and is now on some Canadian legal drama show.

by Anonymousreply 4909/13/2020

Catherine Oxenberg seems unpleasant.

by Anonymousreply 5009/13/2020

R49, I meant in regards to her hasty exit from NXIVM.

by Anonymousreply 5109/14/2020

R47 he was spouting gibberish for the most part, especially in the clip of his first meeting with Allison Mack. She nodded as though he was revealing some deep truth and then cried — he broke her pretty quickly.

by Anonymousreply 5209/14/2020

The whole Master slave thing is so crazy. I slept in, so I'll fast the next day. Crazy low calorie diets. These girls were already thin. No periods and their hair falling out. Creepy.

by Anonymousreply 5309/14/2020

That love transcends a relationship crap Keith was spewing to "Jane" was such a load of bullshit! The reason he starves and sleep deprives these women is so they can't think straight and realize he doesn't make any sense. "Love becomes a morality." First of all asshole, love is an emotion, not a moral. And "a morality" doesn't make sense because morality isn't a noun.

by Anonymousreply 5409/14/2020

I’ve been watching this in horrified fascination and it really struck me during last night’s episode just how incoherent “super genius” Keith Raneire’s pronouncements were. Pure gibberish.

by Anonymousreply 5509/14/2020

R34 It's worth it.

Great documentary and I am hooked.

by Anonymousreply 5609/14/2020

^ you CAN stop watching anytime without being branded

by Anonymousreply 5709/14/2020

It boggles my mind that these nitwits want to belong SO BAD that they turn over blackmail material, spill their guts, go on diets, listen to crap ideas and get branded. None of those women thought to wonder why none of the men were sitting around naked and getting some initial burned into their skin?

by Anonymousreply 5809/14/2020

Jesus Christ!!!! I had no interest in this story even with the Allison Mack angle, which was a GOOD thing!!! I sat through the first episode and initially I kept saying (spoiler) Is this the same story I am thinking of?? Didn't this become some sex cult!!!???? WHAT THE FUCK.... At first the "program" or organization or whatever you want to call it had some good stuff.... They made up their own language but it was basically about the conscious and subconscious mind and mental blocks... Good stuff. I have follwed Dr. Joseph Murphy and everyone else and I am huge believer in this stuff... And then shit progresses- HOLY FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And its EXPERTLY done because they filmed SO MUCH footage for the organization and its like you are truly watching in real time.. I forgot this was HBO (I watch on Amazon and have an HBO subscription) so I binged through the episodes and just about died when I realized I had caught up with all the aired episodes!!! It appears there are 6-7 more!!!! One of the best documentaries I have ever seen and I still cannot fathom how this group turned into THIS!! I have had to stop myself from googling the higher ups because I am so anxious to see what became of them- especially that piece of SHIT daughter of the "Prefect"

by Anonymousreply 5909/14/2020

MARY r59!

[Quote]I have follwed Dr. Joseph Murphy and everyone else and I am huge believer in this stuff

Yep, of course you are.

by Anonymousreply 6009/14/2020

r60 cynicism won't make you happy

by Anonymousreply 6109/14/2020

I agree, this is one of the most fascinating docuseries I’ve seen in some time, precisely because they filmed and recorded SO much. You’re not watching talking heads the entire time recounting last events, it feels like it’s happening in front of you.

by Anonymousreply 6209/14/2020

Master, can I please have 25 calories for this piece of celery that fell behind my couch?

by Anonymousreply 6309/14/2020

The idea of someone collecting "collateral" disguised as confessing/releasing your demons/getting a psychological assessment is well understood by anyone familiar with things like Scientology, and now NXIVM. If someone is unaware of this manipulation, it's understandable that they could possibly be duped into it, especially if it's solicited by someone you've grown to really love and trust.

by Anonymousreply 6409/14/2020

Did Keith rip off some things from that weirdo cult that promoted starving and eating disorders? I can't remember the name, but Michelle Pfeiffer or Glenn Close (maybe both) were involved in it in the 80s or 90s?

by Anonymousreply 6509/14/2020

I don’t find Mark the film maker or Sarah the actress likable. Raniere looked like an asshat in his volleyball get up. Alison Mack meeting him was pure cringe.

by Anonymousreply 6609/15/2020

The Mark guy creeps me out more than the low rent midgit wannabe cult leader (seriously, the guy is maybe 5'6" max). Having all that insider footage is the key to the show working but something is off with Mark (anyone else think he pings??)

Also, Catherine Oxenberg comes off as kinda cunty though I would probably be too if my child fell into a not even Scientology cult. You have to be really D-list if even the Xenu crap looks credulous by comparison...

by Anonymousreply 6709/15/2020

Nippy is on the downlow sucking off guys in the steam room...

by Anonymousreply 6809/15/2020

Mark totally pings, but I think I like him and think he's genuine. Actress Sarah is just plain dumb. I actually like Nippy's fuck you attitude, but it should have come out A LOT earlier to say the least. Clearly Bonnie is the smartest of the bunch.

Keith is SKEEVY in that volleyball get up. It's so obvious he uses all that garbage talk just to get laid. 5'6" is being generous.

Also I wonder how he came up with volleyball? So random.

by Anonymousreply 6909/15/2020

I also like Mark and can’t believe he fell for this. He seems otherwise pretty normal. I agree that Bonnie is the smartest. I’m impressed that these two are still married after all of this.

by Anonymousreply 7009/15/2020

I'm shocked that Scientology didn't go after them guns blazing with lawyers riding hard because this is the most BLATANT $cieno "tech" ripoff ever. From the "sashes" which are basically bridge levels, the fancy jargon, the "titles" Prefect and Master which is basically "Auditor", - they even used the term Suppressive Person.

I don't even like Scientology but come on, at least be original. The only real difference between Raniere and Hubbard was Hubbard's end game was money, Raniere's end game was sex.

by Anonymousreply 7109/15/2020

R28, There were a few Black people involved in this. In the most recent episode, the female subject was brought by a "black urban farmer named Rachel". Also, one of the co-founders of Black Entertainment Television was an acolyte of Raniere's.

by Anonymousreply 7209/15/2020

R67 I have the same reaction to Mark. There seems to be something so hollow about him as a human being that made him such a good mark for a con man.

by Anonymousreply 7309/15/2020

Sarah doesn’t seem very bright but she does seem well-intentioned, and she had to be absolutely terrified for her son.

Agree that Bonnie, the first to realize something was wrong, seems like the smartest of the bunch.

by Anonymousreply 7409/16/2020

As soon as Bonnie was approached about DOS, she knew to run far away. That's a lot more than you can say about the other women.

With Mark while he was dumb enough to buy into Keith's psychobabble, the men were never asked sign a lifelong vow, give collateral, become a slave or get branded. The extent they were asked to buy into Keith's bullshit was a lot less.

by Anonymousreply 7509/16/2020

I don't think Sarah is "dumb" at all. In fact, she speaks eloquently and insightfully about it all. I was actually surprised by insight and level-headedness of all the victims who spoke out in this doc.

by Anonymousreply 7609/16/2020

Obsessed with this show. I think Mark and Sarah and Bonnie all come across as sensitive and intelligent people. Allison seems a bit sketchy so far—though I’ve gone down the rabbit hole and googled pretty much all things NEXIVM. In any case I’ve recommended this show to friends and in every case they’ve been hooked HARD.

by Anonymousreply 7709/16/2020

Wish HBO would drop all episodes of a series at once, particularly this one!

by Anonymousreply 7809/16/2020

R78 - I agree. I usually ignore an HBO series until all episodes have dropped so I can binge them. I got addicted to The Vow too early on so now I'm stuck waiting impatiently to watch each one. Contrary to what HBO marketing might believe, this once-a-week drop of episdoes seems to build irritation, not positive anticipation. It's an outdated model, the "one new episode a week" format. At least I don't have to deal with commercials!

by Anonymousreply 7909/16/2020

Mark said the visit to the Dalai Lama was a win?? Maybe it was the editing, but it didn't seem like it to me. He said Keith was like a Chinese communist, told Keith he needed to prove the allegations against him weren't true, and even Keith said that the Dalai Lama didn't want to hear any of his bullshit. Also didn't like his hair.

The Dalai Lama knew Keith was full of shit and a total fraud.

by Anonymousreply 8009/21/2020

R19 and R20 I believe the reason this was allowed to run so long was that it involved adults having sex and building themselves up until they didn't get the power and influence they wanted. What messed it up was Raniere blackmailing people who wanted to leave and get their private video and photos back, which is illegal. He also had contact with minors. Otherwise this just sounds like people in a business having sex with each other.

It is interesting to me that so many people saw skeletal white failed actors in a room and thought, "This is what success looks like. I'm in the right place." It was hard to feel sorry for them. I like to think most normal people who would see that and would be wondering how so many thin adults from one industry are attracted to this form of self-help.

I also wonder if some people turned into witnesses to avoid harder charges themselves. That is a common tactic for things that involve trafficking and conspiracy charges. If police need people to talk about those crimes, it makes sense to drop charges against those who will talk about one big target, Raniere.

Also, he has at least 2 kids. I wouldn't be surprised if they were abused somehow.

by Anonymousreply 8109/21/2020

I had dinner with Allison Mack several years ago (we have mutual friends). She was delightful and bubbly. and we shared a taxi from the UWS to Soho. Exchanged email addresses and I think emailed each other a couple of times. Often wondered if she would have tried to pull me into the cult had we furthered the relationship. Doubt I would have taken the bait. Went to an EST (remember EST?) introductory meeting once and ran out of there ASAP.

by Anonymousreply 8209/21/2020

"cults offer them the role of a lifetime - a brand new identity, with new rules, new rituals, new ways to succeed and even fail."

My limited experience with local actors/directors confirms this. Playing pretend and finding a way to control something is really attractive to them. Someone who wants to be a software engineer or copywriter just does;t have that mindset. They need to prove they can do the work or they can't.

by Anonymousreply 8309/21/2020

The bloat of this being a 9 episode series was apparent with this installment.

by Anonymousreply 8409/21/2020

Yes I was kind of bored this episode. We learned that the Dalai Lama didn't fall for Raniere's act and that The NY Times was stringing along Mark and Sarah and Co for a long time. So what.

Also I'm sick of seeing images of the branding. I get it already.

by Anonymousreply 8509/21/2020

I was too. It wasn't one of the better episodes.

by Anonymousreply 8609/21/2020

Thought the Dalai Lama scene was exquisitely painful.

by Anonymousreply 8709/21/2020

That dark-haired chick that was sitting beside him when he was talking to the Dalai Lama. With that joker smile on her face.

by Anonymousreply 8809/21/2020

R88 I can’t believe she basically groomed her daughter to fuck Keith.

by Anonymousreply 8909/21/2020

It is a fascinating series. I immediately thought of Scientology while watching. I've never been approached by a cult so I can't judge these people. The way I grew up I can't imagine joining such a cult, but maybe in my vulnerable stages it is possible they would have swayed me.

by Anonymousreply 9009/21/2020

What is the deal with actors and cults? Is it bored or gullible?

by Anonymousreply 9109/21/2020

Actors (famous/semi-famous) are boons for a cult. They are sought after and targeted. Enlightenment, connections, family, all promised.

by Anonymousreply 9209/21/2020

I think a lot of the famous acting gurus had/have a cult-like hold on some of their students.

by Anonymousreply 9309/22/2020

Actors tend to be very neurotic, insecure and focused on these personal improvement ideas. Easy for me to see how they were hoodwinked into this.

by Anonymousreply 9409/22/2020

R82? Are you a woman?

by Anonymousreply 9509/22/2020

Why volleyball? I think: team building game, year-round availability, and when playing volleyball one is almost always looking upwards.

by Anonymousreply 9609/22/2020

What do Mark and Bonnie and Sarah and husband live on post-cult? They don’t seem to have jobs. Is this ever addressed?

by Anonymousreply 9709/23/2020

Interview with Sarah and Nippy.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 9809/24/2020

I've just seen Episode 2. I've always thought with regards to cults that if the brainwashed put half the effort into their careers and hobbies and relationships than they do at their cults, they'd be really successful people.

by Anonymousreply 9909/28/2020

{quote]What do Mark and Bonnie and Sarah and husband live on post-cult?

Sarah has a nice apartment in Vancouver. Vancouver isn't cheap.

by Anonymousreply 10009/28/2020

R100 - it's like the anti-Scientology industry that Lisa Reamini and others heads up. They get paid to produce and be interviewed in these types of programs. Or get paid for the books they write.

There's almost a buisiness case for getting involved in a cult and then getting out so you can get paid for interviews, books, etc.

by Anonymousreply 10109/28/2020

Last night's was boring.

I may be done with this.

by Anonymousreply 10209/28/2020

The latest ep was more interesting than the prior one at least. I agreed with the person who told Barbara that Keith was just using her, and once he had the Bronfmans he didn't need her anymore.

I would say Barbara didn't cause enough of a fuss when she left, but I guess the only thing she had was that Keith was sleeping around a lot. Without the slave/branding angle the media wouldn't have cared.

by Anonymousreply 10309/28/2020

I'm struggling to get through the first episode. It's so boring.

by Anonymousreply 10409/28/2020

Where the hell is Nancy? She has barely been mentioned since Sarah made fun of her eyebrows in the first episode, before realizing she was a hypnotic genius. Was she having sex with him too? What is her story? I haven’t looked into it because I am waiting to see what the show wants to reveal first, but I might have missed any other info. The timeline presented is kind of all over the place and the stories are slowly being metered out with not a lot of order.

Rainere and Co. are gross but I wish Mark and Sarah were more open about what they ignored and why. They want to appear as in the dark about so much but at the same time Mark was filming Keith for years. In the most recent episode he breezes by why the lawsuits and negative media attention in 2012 wasn’t too big of a red flag for him. These guys were in on the grift too, to an extent. Just not the sex. I keep thinking that if Sarah had been approached to have sex with Keith, before marrying the sexy Nippy, then she might still be in right now. She sounded more disappointed than grossed out or outraged as she found out that Keith had sex with so many women around her and not her. It is kind of puzzling that he never tried to fuck her.

Bonnie and Nippy are the angels here.

by Anonymousreply 10509/28/2020

Nancy was having sex with Keith. He was absolutely militant about his sex slaves not having relations with other men. He froze Lauren out after she flirted with a guy at volleyball and she had no relationships other than the one she had with him. She desperately wanted a child and he strung her along only to have a kid with someone else.

Her mother is pure evil

by Anonymousreply 10609/28/2020

I'm sure Nancy was sleeping with Keith at some point. As we see, Keith was sleeping with all the women around him and he quickly got upset if a woman wouldn't have sex with him.

by Anonymousreply 10709/28/2020

Keith grosses me out. He just looks out of shape and like he'd be awful in the sack. And, honestly, if you saw him, wouldn't you assume he was one of us, minus the wit? I would not think, "There's a hetero pussy hound." When they cut to the videos where women are feeding him or stroking his ego, I just want to scream at them to get some self respect and a man who works out at least once a decade. And that fucking Jesus hair! Run a fucking comb through it; you're meeting the Dali Lhama!

by Anonymousreply 10809/28/2020

What is really sick is Nancy then seemed okay with Keith using her daughter sexually

by Anonymousreply 10909/28/2020

And may have slept with him herself!

by Anonymousreply 11009/28/2020

Bonnie is the smartest of this bunch.

by Anonymousreply 11109/28/2020

“I need more data Boo”

Bonnie should have left Mark. I don’t like Mark or Sarah.

by Anonymousreply 11209/28/2020

Bonnie is 18 years younger than Mark. I know she was a struggling singer actress but she should have picked someone more age appropriate.

by Anonymousreply 11309/29/2020

Rumors that Keith poisoned the love of his life to get her money

by Anonymousreply 11409/29/2020

I'm disappointed in the Dalai Lama. He should have known better.

I also don't like how the documentary completely switched to Mark and Sarah and Co. going after NVIXM. I would still like to hear them interviewed about things like that Dalai Lama visit. I don't need to see Sarah's kids screaming and crying for her while she's too busy to comfort them and Nippy comes to the rescue.

by Anonymousreply 11509/29/2020

I want Nippy to come to [bold]my[/bold] rescue.

by Anonymousreply 11609/29/2020

You just know all the entertainment adjacent people in this cult laughed at Scientologists for being so gullible.

by Anonymousreply 11709/29/2020

I want Nippy to cum in my mouth.

by Anonymousreply 11809/29/2020

Sarah is right about that Times expose: they didn't provide any context about the years-long indoctrination of these members, and how the bad stuff was slowly introduced. They made it seem like these people joined and agreed to be branded the next day.

by Anonymousreply 11909/29/2020

Sarah being so concerned about her self image and that she looked easily manipulated was missing the point. The NYTimes publishing this story is what turned everything around and led to the fall of Keith. It was a piece meant to grab everyone's attention.

by Anonymousreply 12009/29/2020

Sarah thought she was going to be famous with the #metoo movement, I still think if she had been sleeping with Keith she would still be in the cult. She is pissed Keith didn’t hit on her.

by Anonymousreply 12109/29/2020

I would agree that she was clearly offended Keith was sleeping with so many women around her but didn't make a move on her.

by Anonymousreply 12209/29/2020

They’re stretching this shit out.

I’m also not buying Sarah’s pure motivations either. She was a little too excited to find herself on the front page of the New York Times.

You can tell Bonnie doesn’t think much of her.

by Anonymousreply 12309/29/2020

Yes. I am truly soaking up this documentary. So far they’ve done a really good job with it. But I highly recommend you have knowledge of the people involved, the case, and NXIVM beforehand because I think The Vow is more about the details and inside dialogue. I’ve heard people say they can’t get into it. Highly recommend listening to the podcast or diving into some articles first.

I was surprised to see Grace Park was involved.

by Anonymousreply 12409/29/2020

R67 Mark Vicente's first cult wans't NXIVM! He was in the Ramtha School of Enlightenment prior to joining. (See attached article!)

Re: Sarah being upset that Keith didn't want to sleep with her. I'm SURE he would have if she moved to Albany. I can't recall if it was stated in an earlier episode or in the Escaping NXIVM podcast, that's the impression I've got from everything I've read about the cult.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 12509/29/2020

It’s a reach to suggest Sarah was pissed that Keith didn’t try to fuck her.

by Anonymousreply 12609/29/2020

Yes r20, but it would have been much more immediately effective if NYT had written a more thoughtful piece which didn't open the victims up to public ridicule and doubt. It was a thin, short piece that focused on the salacious details. NXIVM pulls people in with (in my opinion) effective and transformative truths. The members aren't in a trance, they're not pathetic, they are happy because the ideas they are learning work and they have a community. BUT Raniere perverted all this to eventually abuse, exploit and control people. He groomed these women, some for years, before they woke up or were forced to wake up. This show, although the story is realllllly dragged out, tells the story in the way the NYT should have done.

by Anonymousreply 12709/30/2020

Which is the best podcast on the whole NXIVM thing?

by Anonymousreply 12809/30/2020

Haven’t read this thread too carefully as I didn’t follow the whole NXIVM thing that closely when it was happening, except I think an article in the New Yorker and the times updates, so watching the eps Weekly feels a bit like a mystery almost. (I’m two eps behind I think, and watch it once a week.)

But am I the only one to think Raniere cleans up very nicely?

He was so smart and charismatic, why the fuck did he have to engage in sex trafficking? It’s so ludicrous. All of that thought put into self development, apparently with considerable dividends, and it’s all thrown away on a glorified prostitution ring?

by Anonymousreply 12909/30/2020

Clare Bronfman was sentenced to over 6 years. Doesn't look good for Raniere and Mack's sentencing.

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by Anonymousreply 13009/30/2020

[quote]He was so smart and charismatic, why the fuck did he have to engage in sex trafficking? It’s so ludicrous.

Because he's a sick fuck who wanted a harem, dummy. He's not a normal straight guy who is happy dating a bunch of chicks or getting married to the girls of his dreams.

by Anonymousreply 13109/30/2020

Damn r130! That is a surprisingly stiff sentence. That judge is not fucking around, serves her right.

And you are right, now everybody else waiting to be sentenced is trembling

by Anonymousreply 13209/30/2020

I have to admit, I think the entire Human Potential Movement (all associated cults/theories/etc.) is fascinating. It strikes me as 100% deluded to believe that there's "untapped" potential within us to become these PERFECT beings. Not that we can't improve individually and do better than we did yesterday, or last year. On one hand some of the proponents had generally good influence (Carl Rogers, Viola Spolin, etc.), but there's so much toxic shit associated with it via nutters like this. It reminds me of a secular version of "prosperity gospel" sometimes.

But honestly, how can people believe in any of these enlightened gurus? What the fuck were they actually doing to make the planet a better place? Fucking sex slaves, most likely. An IQ of 240? My sides.

by Anonymousreply 13309/30/2020

"I'm disappointed in the Dalai Lama. He should have known better."

Am I the only one who thinks that the Dalai Lama is also a fraud?

by Anonymousreply 13410/02/2020

The fascinating thing about many cults is that the male leaders truly hate women and are not even hiding that. Nevertheless, they have no problem finding and recruiting women who ignore the misogyny and are willing to do everything for them. Branding other women and referring to them as slaves? Where is your self-respect, ladies?

by Anonymousreply 13510/02/2020

R134 I have a major distrust of Buddhism

by Anonymousreply 13610/02/2020

They are trying to send this guy away for life. I don't think he deserves to be imprisoned for life. Anyone else think the prosecution is going overboard?

by Anonymousreply 13710/02/2020

R134 - I agree with you. There's something off about him. I've always found his guru/hero status suspect.

by Anonymousreply 13810/02/2020

R134 Do we have Chinese trolls here now?

by Anonymousreply 13910/02/2020

I don’t trust Mark and Nippy. They’re MRAs and are probably in the Red Pill subreddit this very moment.

[quote] The Society of Protectors is a subgroup within Nxivm, made up of Nxivm males (it is not right to call them men) who follow the wisdom and the teachings of the Vanguard – on how men should behave with women.

[quote] Some of the principle teachings of SOP was that men are naturally polygamous and women naturally monogamous – and that women should accept this wondrous gender difference and celebrate it – that a man should have multiple sex partners – that it is natural and biologically right.

[quote] While the woman must- it is imperative – be faithful to only her man.

[quote] Another teaching is that women are spoiled; pampered princesses and that men take all the hard blows in the world while women skate by claiming to be victims when they have all the advantages.

[quote] Yet another teaching – promulgated by the Vanguard himself – he practiced what he preached – is that if a man ejaculates on a women – he has marked her as his own [much like a dog spraying.]

[quote] The woman so marked then belongs to the man gracious enough to provide his ejaculate upon her.

[quote] (I have, thanks to a former SOP student, a secret recording of Keith Raniere giving the entire secret SOP curriculum – it is something like 8 hours of the Vanguard teachings for men. I once tried to post it on Youtube.com but Keith filed a copyright infringement claim and Youtube deleted my recording. Happily I have ample backup copies. In fact, through an attorney, I provided a copy to law enforcement for their delectation and edification.)

[quote] Yes, it was quite an attractive philosophy for followers of Raniere, for it seemed to give them permission to be mini-Vanguards and their women were deemed most selfish indeed if they: A. Objected to their man’s philandering or B. Philandered themselves.

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by Anonymousreply 14010/04/2020

Catherine Oxenberg and Mark Vincente both annoy me, but for different reasons. I understand that Catherine is desperate to get her daughter out of that cult, but does every scene with her have to show her furiously typing away on her laptop or arguing with someone over the phone? ENOUGH. Mark Vincente just seems fake as hell. His filmmaking career failed and he's trying to use this as his chance to become a famous filmmaker, I think. How long until he joins his next cult?

The documentary is best when it doesn't focus on Catherine, Mark, Sarah, etc. It's fascinating to hear from women like Toni Natalie and the other woman who successfully defended herself against NXIVM (she ran the Seattle location? I can't recall her name).

It's a bit conspiracy theorist of me to wonder if someone like Mark left the cult for more fame, but... he is a serial cultist.

by Anonymousreply 14110/04/2020

Catherine Oxenberg also has a cultist history. She admitted she used to (?) be into gurus and this was imprinted onto India as a kid. Turns out she took ESP classes for 2 years and that's how India got involved in the first place, she brought her to a class. This was in tonight's episode.

by Anonymousreply 14210/04/2020

I’ve been watching it but the timelines are all fucked up. Makes it almost unwatchable. I don’t like it too much now.

by Anonymousreply 14310/04/2020

I loved it when Catherine called her mother to get her to contact Prince Charles to get in touch with the Dalai Lama. She has aged well. Whatever work she's had, was expert.

by Anonymousreply 14410/05/2020

I'd rather Karen Cellini had played the role of Catherine Oxenberg in this.

by Anonymousreply 14510/05/2020

Catherine Oxenberg’s tragic nose job SCREAMS early 80s

by Anonymousreply 14610/05/2020

Do they tell us what "damage" the filmmaker caused? I agree there's something off about him.

by Anonymousreply 14710/05/2020

Is Keith a Little Person?

by Anonymousreply 14810/05/2020

Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia sounds like a hoot. I didn't know Catherine was married to briefly to Robert Evans (annulled) and then Casper Van Dien (divorced)...

by Anonymousreply 14910/05/2020

Has anyone seen the NXIVM Lifetime movie based on Catherine Oxenberg's book? Peter Facinelli plays Keith. Talk about an upgrade.

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by Anonymousreply 15010/05/2020

Why doesn't Mark have a South African accent?

by Anonymousreply 15110/05/2020

Have you heard a South African accent, r151?

by Anonymousreply 15210/05/2020

I'm sick of looking at Keith's overbite. He is a vile dwarf.

by Anonymousreply 15310/05/2020

lol r151, yes, but he's supposedly South African so...where is it? He's not an actor who would have reason to train it out of himself and he lived in S.A. through at least the end of his teens. I'm suspicious that he joined this group knowing it was trash and with the intent of making a doc exposing them. I, also, think something is way off with Nippy and that he was involved in some gross shit within the group that he's not admitting to. And why wouldn't Keith have tried to fuck Sarah? How are all these people so gullible?

by Anonymousreply 15410/05/2020

Another question - How did Keith cure that guy's Tourette's or was that a lie?

by Anonymousreply 15510/05/2020

This 2 part doc apparently gives more in-depth info about some of the players who are glossed over in The Vow, including Pam Cafritz who was Raniere's version of a Ghislane Maxwell.

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by Anonymousreply 15610/05/2020

[quote] I, also, think something is way off with Nippy and that he was involved in some gross shit within the group that he's not admitting to. And why wouldn't Keith have tried to fuck Sarah? How are all these people so gullible?

Sarah had emotional needs that she wanted filled and thought that DOS could do it, but she sooner realised it couldn’t. After she was branded it became apparent that Nippy has not seen her naked for some time. Maybe not uncommon for a mother of a young kid. Maybe not uncommon for the wife of a man who led Society Of Protectors.

Sarah freaked out about the brand and the collateral after she heard slaves were fucking Keith and it is clear that is the endgame. Lauren tried to convince her that her devotion to her her master was more important than her relationship with her husband. Sarah wasn’t having it - she was married to significantly attractive man, and had nothing to gain from sleeping with Keith.

I don’t think Sarah was ultimately that good of a mark, pun totally intended.

by Anonymousreply 15710/05/2020

I can't believe that little troll found dozens of women willing to be in the same room with him, much less fuck and be his sex slaves. He's so disgusting. Why did Nancy fall into this bullshit?

by Anonymousreply 15810/05/2020

See Jim Jones, Rupert Murdoch, Donald Trump

by Anonymousreply 15910/06/2020

This Mark weirdo can’t pronounce the word “women”. He pronounces “women” the same as “woman”. Was it part of SOP to not recognize the plural of adult human female? What’s wrong with this bozo?

by Anonymousreply 16010/06/2020

R160 Like most incels, they prefer "female" to "women" as it dehumanizes women.

With regards to his South Eeeefrican eccent, from his website: [quote]Mark Vicente was born in Johannesburg, South Africa in 1965. With a father in Radio and a mother in the Diplomatic Service, he rarely stayed in one place for very long. As a child he traveled the world and lived in such diverse places as Portugal, Brazil, Canada, and the US.

Sounds like he travelled around as a child and might not have been in South Africa long enough to get an accent.

by Anonymousreply 16110/06/2020

You can hear his accent every so often, actually. He speaks typical American style English for the most part, but occasionally you will hear a trace of a South African accent creep in.

by Anonymousreply 16210/06/2020

He looks like such an ugly nerd. It's crazy to me that these women hanged on his every word. What was the deal with the women starving themselves?

by Anonymousreply 16310/06/2020

R163 He probably wanted to fuck skinny women, BUT I also think it was less about weight-loss and more about general depravation and maintaining control. If you get 3 hours of sleep (interrupted by your slave master sending texts) and 400 calories in a day, I'm sure you'd agree to a lot of shit you wouldn't under normal circumstances

by Anonymousreply 16410/06/2020

He also preferred a full bush. The DOS women had to grow in their pubic hair.

by Anonymousreply 16510/06/2020

I'm hoping in one of the next episodes they talk more about Allison Mack. How she got so sucked in.

by Anonymousreply 16610/06/2020

The documentary that R156 linked to is interesting. You really get a sense of the depravity of Nxivm, especially DOS. What is strange is with all of Mark's filming the group you, or maybe I was not paying attention, don't see the starving women. These people, Sarah, Mark and Bonnie had to see the starving women, yet I haven't heard them talk about it.

by Anonymousreply 16710/07/2020

Keith R reminds me of a folky acoustic guitar dude from the 70s, like one of the guys from the band America...EXCEPT for when he wears his sporty sweatband for volleyball.

by Anonymousreply 16810/07/2020

It cracks me up that NXIVM cult members had such lame activities -- a cappella and volleyball.

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by Anonymousreply 16910/07/2020

(R169) don't forget the summer camp. Which I'm sure they paid quite a bit to go.

by Anonymousreply 17010/07/2020

This is what happens to wealthy, attractive white women with no self esteem or real sense of purpose in life. If I were India, I would be out living like a royal, not starving myself for some perv. Unless there is some underage component, this is all feels fairly consensual, maybe a bit predatory. I'm hoping to see some kind of major bombshell in the next 2 episodes. I haven;t done a deep dive yet so all my info right now is coming from the show.

by Anonymousreply 17110/07/2020

Apparently, in prison, the other inmates keep breaking his glasses, shitting in his shoes and calling him 'Cry Baby Rose'.

by Anonymousreply 17210/07/2020

[quote]This Mark weirdo can’t pronounce the word “women”. He pronounces “women” the same as “woman”.

I'll have to watch it and pay attention. I wonder if he spent part of his childhood in NZ as we have a tendency to do the same thing. The short i sound in women becomes a clipped schwa and both words end up sounding the same.

South Africans definitely don't do it, so it can't be that.

by Anonymousreply 17310/07/2020

R173, it’s the O he pronounces wrong.

by Anonymousreply 17410/07/2020

Isn't the o in 'women' is pronounced i?

[quote]This Mark weirdo can’t pronounce the word “women”.

by Anonymousreply 17510/07/2020

Yeah, women = wih-men and woman = woh-man, but he pronounces both as woh-man.

by Anonymousreply 17610/07/2020

I can see where I wasn't clear. The o in women, which the rest of the world pronounces as an i, is a barely pronounced schwa in New Zealand, making it basically the same same sound as the o in woman....which we also don't want to fully pronounce.

The o in each word, to us, even though they're two distinct sounds everywhere else in the world, is sort of a swallowed 'uh' sound.

In any case, I just googled him and didn't see anything about NZ so I have no idea what his problem is. I only know what mine is.

by Anonymousreply 17710/07/2020

As an American, I think it is very obvious that Mark has an accent. I don’t know if I would pin it down as South African right away, but the way he says certain words is a dead giveaway.

by Anonymousreply 17810/08/2020

[quote] ([R169]) don't forget the summer camp. Which I'm sure they paid quite a bit to go.

It attracts a certain kind of person doesn’t it. Most people groan silently at when Steve turns up to ruin another party with his acoustic guitar, but the Nxvim victims are into that shit. Summer camp for adults seems like a certain circle of hell.

Not surprising there are so many lapsed Jews in the sad-help/cult/MLM games. When your nominal faith/ethnicity/background promotes a close knit community, it’s no surprise they will go seeking the same in their “chosen families” in secular formats as adults.

by Anonymousreply 17910/11/2020

Collateral. Branding. This is sick.

And predictable. Humans fall for it, over and over.

by Anonymousreply 18010/11/2020

This text exchange with a Mexican illegal immigrant Keith slept with and took nude photos of when she was 15 was read in court, with Raniere sitting there in front of the jury and the judge.

KEITH: Why haven’t you insisted on swallowing me [Raniere’s semen] since you did so with R [Robbie]? I can’t keep calling you. I want you to force yourself to stay connected.

CAMI: I haven’t wanted it. I’ve been intimate with you without pushing me away. That’s big.

KEITH: That’s the worst news of all. His sperm and DNA should be disgusting and invasive. You should have wanted to do anything to love mine [semen], to try to save what is left of a connection. Do you like his fluid more than mine?

CAMI: Right now, neither.

KEITH: Did you ever prefer his taste, etc., over mine?

CAMI: Why do you want me to answer that?

KEITH: Please don’t question me like this anymore. I can’t tell you the reasons. Please answer.

CAMI: If I didn’t, I wouldn’t have chosen to be with him.

KEITH: You chose to be with him because you liked the taste of his semen better?????

CAMI: No.

KEITH: Then what do you mean?

CAMI: But if I disliked it, I would have avoided it.

KEITH: I asked specifically about taste. Did you specifically mention to him you liked it??

CAMI: I can’t remember.

KEITH: I need you to.

CAMI: Probably.

KEITH: What did you like?

CAMI: Seriously? I’m hesitant to share this with you.

KEITH: I need everything. This is explicitly in the letter I wrote. For me to do anything more with you, I need to know you want to tell me all.

CAMI: Does that mean you accepted the vow?

KEITH: No. You keep giving me reasons not to. I keep telling you what I need that is different. Did you like his taste better than mine?

CAMI: I wish I didn’t have to answer this. Yes.

KEITH: The wish thing hurts us. What did you like better?

CAMI: Taste, consistency, quantity, intensity [of Robbie’s semen].

KEITH: What about each of these things?

CAMI: Taste; he is mild and sweet. Consistency; not too concentrated. Quantity; small amount. Intensity; strong release speed. I am sorry you had to hear that.

KEITH: He is shorter and thinner penis-wise?

CAMI: Longer, but thinner.

KEITH: Is he longer when I’m fully hard?

CAMI: Probably about same.

KEITH: Did he hit the back of you? [when Robbie and Cami had intercourse]

CAMI: ?

KEITH: Last spring?

CAMI: Oh, I can’t remember.

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by Anonymousreply 18110/11/2020

CAMI: Oh, I can’t remember.

KEITH: I am examining perception. I know his penis is 6.75 fully erect and mine is 7.5, so I am looking at how you are slanting things.

CAMI: What the fuck? How do you know that?

KEITH: Likewise with intensity. You forget our passionate times and compare our day-to-day [sex] and in the last year I’ve been heartbroken and could barely function [because of Cami having sex with Robbie. Keep in mind Keith is having sex with a dozen or more women.]

CAMI: Why does this matter?

KEITH: Maybe someday I’ll tell you, but guys know these things about each other.

CAMI: How?

KEITH: Later.

CAMI: I thought men did share these things.

KEITH: … Men masturbate together.

CAMI: No way. Have you masturbated with him?

KEITH: They don’t share about their women, but themselves is different.

CAMI: Have you seen his penis?

KEITH: His is definitely not the width or length of mine. How are you going to fix this lie? [that Robbie’’s penis is as big when fully erect as Keith].

CAMI: You haven’t been at your fullest in a long time. It isn’t a lie. [Classic answer.]

KEITH: That is the problem. Your whole memory of him is a lie. The time before last I was easily longer than him. I kept hitting the back of you, remember? You came twice.

CAMI: How can I forget? But you were hitting the tender spots on the sides. I never cum because you hit the back. That has never been the case.

KEITH: It is highly doubtful he [Robbie’s semen] was even close to as sweet. I actually have a very strong basis for that. Mild maybe. Less volume definitely, but you put less volume as a plus. It is always a minus because I can put the rest elsewhere [with another woman]. No, most people don’t cum because of the back, I was just pointing out I was 7.5 that morning.

CAMI: To be honest, this isn’t that important to me. You’re bigger and better in every way, I’m sure of it.

KEITH: I don’t believe you’re sure of it, but the taste has a special significance. All of these things can be altered: Length, width, intensity, taste, even to some degree volume. But there is an important factor in taste that is essential and that you have increased that sex so much and still protect the lie. I can challenge the lie on measurables, but not the measurables that you must do. This is mostly measurable because if the lie you created real passion — because of real passion you grossly exaggerated the experience [with Robbie]. How are you going to fix that?…

CAMI: I don’t care who’s better or bigger. You do. Take it, hon. And yes, I am sure that you are superior.

KEITH: What do you mean, take it?

CAMI: The crown. The official title. I will attest to that.

by Anonymousreply 18210/11/2020

EWWWW

by Anonymousreply 18310/11/2020

[quote]I have to admit, I think the entire Human Potential Movement (all associated cults/theories/etc.) is fascinating. It strikes me as 100% deluded to believe that there's "untapped" potential within us to become these PERFECT beings.

I think the Protestant American obsession with purity (from the Puritans onwards) makes them ripe for the picking.

Catholics and Jews are used to living with guilt and sin. The fundamentals of Abrahamic faith is that after you are truly sorry and if you atone, God forgives. Which is why drinking and smoking and dancing and the Devil's music and some light adultery and pre-marital sex aren't really dealbreakers. It's why the Italians and French are culturally so different.

by Anonymousreply 18410/11/2020

R184 I think you have a point with that! Reminds me of the quotation: ""Have no fear of perfection You'll never reach it" - Salvador Dalí

I can't deal with Keith going on and on about making the world a better place, what good did NXVIM do in the world? Host a cappella competitions? At least the rajneeshees looked like they had a good time!

Imagine, if Keith had discovered the internet before getting into MLMs/cult leadership. He could have just been a run-of-the-mill incel on Reddit, but here we are. His reductive views about men and women were chilling to hear. He hates women because your dad wouldn't let you hit one when they took away your pail? Oh boy, the scene of Keith and the other cult members trying to "science" in his living room, my sides!!! 🤣 😂 🤣 😂

Mark is going to join another cult, I bet. He just has that "type" of personality. Ugh, a "seeker."

by Anonymousreply 18510/11/2020

This episode lost me as far as women buying into the cult shit. Did none of these people see through the absolute bullshit he was spewing to the women and the men during these sessions? I would like to see interviews with anyone that left and/or just said no thanks, this isn't for me anymore, after a few of these sessions. Come on, none of them had the sense to go home and say to themselves ummm I didn't grow up having this experience that he's describing at all, so I'm not going back tomorrow.

by Anonymousreply 18610/12/2020

R185, Mark was in a cult called Ramtha's School of Enlightenment before NXIVM.

by Anonymousreply 18710/12/2020

R187 I know, that's precisely why I think he'll join a third cult!

by Anonymousreply 18810/12/2020

Mark Vicente i creepy even without this cult stuff. He married a woman old enough to be his daughter.

by Anonymousreply 18910/12/2020

*young

by Anonymousreply 19010/12/2020

He married her because she was in Star Wars.

by Anonymousreply 19110/12/2020

He for sure will, R187. He would still be steeped in NXIVM had Bonnie not run for her life.

by Anonymousreply 19210/12/2020

There is no more punchable face on earth than Keith's.

by Anonymousreply 19310/12/2020

Bonnie is the only redeemable one among the apostates.

by Anonymousreply 19410/12/2020

R194, I think we’d all hate her as much as the rest of them if she talked more.

by Anonymousreply 19510/12/2020

You'd be right , R33, but you leave out that these people were in a LOT of psychic pain before they found this cult. No one gets in a cult just to "do better." They were trying to fix themselves and not become alcohol/drug abusers. They were in pain.

Imo.

by Anonymousreply 19610/12/2020

Mark! Mark! Over here!

by Anonymousreply 19710/12/2020

No, no! Mark! Over HERE!

by Anonymousreply 19810/12/2020

Screw them! Mark! Mark! Over here!

by Anonymousreply 19910/12/2020

Ohhhh, I just visited Mark’s IMDb and he directed What The Bleep Do We Know and that explains soooo much.

I was made to watch that with my ex. He said it would “change my life”. I dumped him a week later.

by Anonymousreply 20010/12/2020

And on that note, on the CBC podcast on NXIVM made by one of Sarah’s childhood friends, Keith presented one of his rich girlfriends by presenting her with a copy of Atlas Shrugged and told her “you’re my Dagny Taggart”. You couldn’t make this up.

by Anonymousreply 20110/12/2020

Who is Robbie that had the sweet semen? I've watched every episode - is he featured on the show. It's kind of hot that the men j/o together.

by Anonymousreply 20210/12/2020

It is hard to sympathize with any of these people because they were all so stupid that they were in a cult and did amazingly stupid things when told to. Gullibility is not an attractive attribute.

by Anonymousreply 20310/12/2020

These grown adults and not really young adults like some of the poor kids stuck in Scientology. The members are basically late 20's/early 30's washed up actresses or entertainment professionals disillusioned with life.

by Anonymousreply 20410/12/2020

R196, everyone has pain. We’re not all joining cults and taking slaves.

by Anonymousreply 20510/13/2020

The branding. I just can't get over the branding. Sex slave isn't bad enough — you're willing to be branded?

by Anonymousreply 20610/13/2020

I was reading comment elsewhere about the show and one of the commenters said something that struck me. Initially, in the NXIVM training program (so ESP), Keith's teachings pretty much tell people that you have control over EVERYTHING in your life. Your emotions are YOUR fault for letting yourself feel that way. However, in tonight's episode... Keith blames everything on WOMEN and SOCIETY!!!! Men are fucked up because of women and society, not because of THEIR OWN FEELINGS THAT THEY SHOULD CONTROL.

by Anonymousreply 20710/13/2020

R194 People on Reddit are upset with her because she does "intuitive tarot readings" for $175 a pop now.

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by Anonymousreply 20810/13/2020

So Keith actually hates women for some reason. Have we been informed of the reason yet? I'm referring to his upbringing. Like he probably hates his mother.

Or is he just a perverted sex fiend?

by Anonymousreply 20910/13/2020

[quote] So Keith actually hates women for some reason. Have we been informed of the reason yet?

A good quarter of straight men do

by Anonymousreply 21010/13/2020

NXIVM attracts these people who are ambitious and socialised well enough to get along in life - be in the military, direct a neo-philosophical indie, act on a sci-fi show, parlaying a bit part in Star Wars into living entirely off conventions, be the granddaughter of mild royalty, have a natural talents for sales and marketing, be a former high school quarterback - but who lack critical thinking skills.

I was so creeped out by how turned on Allison was by her first meeting with Keith when he denigrated her life’s work as an artist. He said you don’t need art to feel joy like some and she started flirting. I guess that was successful negging in action.

The same thing happened to Mark. He said he wanted to made movies with compassion, with ethics and they said “how can you do that when you’re clearly not living a compassionate and ethical life?” and he thought instantly, I’m going to take a year and work on myself. My GOD. No one lives a perfectly ethical and compassionate life. No one. If he, and Allison, and Bonnie and the rest of these failed artists gave it 5 minutes of thought they’d realise that successful, humanist works of art deal exactly with our human frailties. But these idiots seem to think that enlightenment can be purchased and I think is partly a failure of critical thinking and education and partly stems out of them being extroverts and wanting the energy of a big social family.

As it stands, there seem to be 4 or 5 remaining devotees who can’t get over the loss of v-week and make a nightly vigil by the Brooklyn prison where Keith is held, dancing to Fatman Scoop.

Anyone has Eduardo?

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by Anonymousreply 21110/13/2020

[quote]He said he wanted to made movies with compassion, with ethics and they said “how can you do that when you’re clearly not living a compassionate and ethical life?” and he thought instantly, I’m going to take a year and work on myself. My GOD. No one lives a perfectly ethical and compassionate life. No one.

R211 Yes! It goes back to how delusional the recruits were about being some sort of PERFECT human. If these people had any sense they'd read a fucking Walt Whitman poem, see a play by Chekov, read a novel by Vonnegut, watch a film by Eric Rohmer, etc. Artists who were deeply humanistic, maybe then they'd understand that are flaws are part and parcel of our experiences. On one hand I think the recruits were ridiculously stupid, but on the other hand I feel pity for them. They thought they were changing the world. How sad.

As an aside, Catherine Oxenberg had a shining moment this episode when she was laughing about the dog bed that Mark made Bonnie sleep in. Perhaps, it was "too soon" to laugh about that, but it was funny. Then Mark became a pissy asshole when it was brought up. Come ON, it is funny that "your" cult made your wife sleep in a dog's bed as "penance." He was so upset with Catherine for "re-traumatizing" her, when Bonnie was laughing right along with Catherine.

Mark bothers me much more than Sarah.

by Anonymousreply 21210/14/2020

Overlong by three episodes.

by Anonymousreply 21310/14/2020

Overlong by five episodes.

by Anonymousreply 21410/14/2020

They should have gone into how Nancy got wrapped up with him. And Mark should be serving prison time.

by Anonymousreply 21510/14/2020

R212 Agree about Mark. He really showed his dark side in the scene with Oxenberg laughing about the dog bed.

by Anonymousreply 21610/14/2020

I'm disliking Mark more and more as the episodes go on. I'm starting to think he had some kind of "immunity" deal where if he came completely clean he wasn't prosecuted and also if he was completely transparent with Netflix they wouldn't bring it up and show him in a positive light.

I thought the same thing about the dog bed. Part of healing is laughing. They all know it was twisted and bad, let the poor woman have a laugh with her friend. I think Mark showed he's still an asshole by his reaction. I see a huge difference between him and Nippy. Nippy seems more genuine, but I really wish he had a different name.

by Anonymousreply 21710/14/2020

You realize that Nippy is just a nickname, right? His proper name is Anthony. I sort of like Nippy as a nickname; much more unique than Tony.

by Anonymousreply 21810/14/2020

I think Bonnie is as mortified about Mark as we are. Hopefully she leaves him soon. She can do better.

by Anonymousreply 21910/14/2020

r212, no. Catherine remains a large step removed from all of this and wasn't reading the signals that this is still incredibly traumatizing and shame-inducing for Bonnie. Bonnie wasn't laughing, she was trying to hold it together and not make things uncomfortable for Catherine. That scene made it clear that Catherine doesn't have much empathy for what happened to people other than her daughter. She may not have intended to be insensitive, but I loved that moment because she was put in her place. She needed to realize these people are still traumatized by this and not ready to joke about it.

by Anonymousreply 22010/14/2020

I find looking at pictures of Allison Mack kind of hard, because of how thin she was.

by Anonymousreply 22110/14/2020

I don’t understand the criticism of Mark in the dog bed scene. I think he looked genuinely upset and embarrassed and was obviously triggered that it was brought up because he realized his treatment of Bonnie was so poor.

by Anonymousreply 22210/14/2020

R220, no, he behaved like an abusive misogynist, silencing the “girls” (note, he referred to SOP as a group of MEN but DOS was composed of “girls”) so he could avoid accountability for whatever his actual level of participation in forcing his wife to sleep on the floor on a dog bed (and all the other heinous shit he did in the cult) was. He refuses to take accountability. Nippy needled him about that and he again passed the buck. Mark is a sick fuck who should not be allowed around women and Bonnie should have signaled to Catherine that she wanted to be rescued out of that abusive relationship. Catherine saw that dynamic for exactly what it is.

by Anonymousreply 22310/14/2020

[quote] You realize that Nippy is just a nickname, right?

Yes, I realize that. Which makes it even worse.

by Anonymousreply 22410/14/2020

I'm waiting for Catherine Oxenberg to investigate how Fallon went up into a flying saucer and came back a different actress......it was NEVER properly explained.

by Anonymousreply 22510/14/2020

Keith Raniere Dressed as a Woman

Keith Alan Raniere had a kinky side that led him to cross-dress, and wear makeup and lipstick, new evidence shows.

The man known as Vanguard was shown, at his trial for sex trafficking, racketeering and other felony counts, to have lusted after multiple women, always requiring them to please him, while the reverse was rarely of any concern to him.

He was shown to have an illegal perversion that led him to statutory rape of underage girls – as evidenced by his rape of 15-year-old Cami, 14-year-old Gina, and 12-year-old Rhiannon.

Keith was rumored to have gone out to sex clubs under the assumed name of Queef. He reportedly would visit clubs in the company of a tall, blond-haired man that some said was his gay lover.

It was rumored, Keith [as Queef] would stray from his normal, vegetarian diet and eat meat and portray himself as a lisping gay man or sometimes assume the role of a woman.

It was also said he led this double life – as an escape from the pressure of being the Vanguard for the large group of adoring followers who he was responsible for shepherding to unification through the Nxivm striped path. In his secret world, he became Queef, the sexy, carefree, beautiful lady of his fantasy world.

Although these rumors persisted for years, there was never any proof.

Sure, multiple people said they met this funny looking woman, a little flat-chested, who spoke with a soft, feminine voice, seemed a bit cross-eyed, who told anyone who would listen that she was the smartest women in the world and one of its top three problem solvers.

She reportedly said her name was Keisy Alayne, but her nickname was Queef. She was described as short and though she wore heels, had somewhat square feet. She lusted after men and would hop right on their laps when they were barely expecting it. She had a distinct body odor, as if she had not showered in a week. She was said to have luxurious hair but more than a little facial hair. She said she would not date a man who ate garlic.

Who was this woman? I long suspected it was Keith himself, but proof was hard to come by.

Finally, I obtained this copyright picture taken in December. 1992 of Keith Alan Raniere. Is this then Keisy Alayne Queef?

This is not a photo-shopped picture but a genuine, copyrighted picture of Keith Alan Raniere dressed as a woman, with makeup, lipstick and a wig.

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by Anonymousreply 22610/14/2020

Keith as Keisy Alayne Queef

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by Anonymousreply 22710/14/2020

That's interesting.

by Anonymousreply 22810/14/2020

[quote]Who is Robbie that had the sweet semen? I've watched every episode - is he featured on the show. It's kind of hot that the men j/o together.

His name is Robbie Chiappone. His mother Esther rented out rooms of her home to NXIVM members.

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by Anonymousreply 22910/14/2020

I cant get over the name Queef.

This is a joke, right?

by Anonymousreply 23010/14/2020

R230, either that or that word doesn’t mean what he thinks it means...

by Anonymousreply 23110/14/2020

Mark seemed half in love with Keith

by Anonymousreply 23210/14/2020

No matter how drunk I would be there was a line I could never cross. These people were sober (apparently) and crossed a line that most human beings would not cross and would question.

by Anonymousreply 23310/14/2020

I had a hard time watching this last episode because Keith’s characterization of men and women was so obnoxious. Catherine was tone deaf as to how upsetting the dog bed incident was to both Mark and Bonnie.

I think I’m in love with Nippy.

by Anonymousreply 23410/14/2020

Nippy was always talking about this weird friendship that he had with Keith. He gives a weird expression and says it's something he can't explain - the love he felt for him. It was something weird like that.

by Anonymousreply 23510/14/2020

This is awful, but knowing that Bonnie actually consented to sleeping in a dog beg because Mark told her to makes me disrespect her for still being with him now,

by Anonymousreply 23610/15/2020

Keithos! Markos! BARF!!

by Anonymousreply 23710/15/2020

R234 was tone deaf to what an abusive misogynist Mark still is to silence the women in the room who are discussing terrible things he did that he still refuses to take responsibility for.

by Anonymousreply 23810/15/2020

Agreed r238, it was very revealing.

I had forgotten that Catherine Oxenberg’s marriage to Casper Van Dien during this whole saga.

by Anonymousreply 23910/15/2020

r239 Divorced after 16 years - whats the dish? was he fucking every young starlet in Hollywood or was she a raging bitch? There has to be a baddie and a goodie :)

by Anonymousreply 24010/15/2020

Through the whole series I keep wondering what was the actual curriculum of NVXIM. I I've read a lot about scientology and other cults and usually get an idea of core beliefs and the rules that are used to keep their membership in line.

But with this HBO series, I see that there was an oddly charismatic leader, but I have not heard him say anything particularly insightful about the human condition or how to improve one's life or any of that shit that are the initial attraction of religion and other cults. I've just heard vague talk about ethics.

Can anyone point me to a website that boils down their beliefs and courses to the bare bones so I can see what got people hooked?

by Anonymousreply 24110/15/2020

I don't find Keith charismatic AT ALL. I don't get how he has ever had anyone pay attention to anything he says or does. He is a short, unattractive, little troll with horrible hair. What in the world do these sheeple see in him?

by Anonymousreply 24210/15/2020

I get that Mark apparently decided to document every fucking minute of his life with a camera. But what's with those supposedly personal conversations between Nippy and Sarah in their own home? Are those supposed to be re-enactments?

Considering these NVXIM members' penchant for filming every flipping moment of their lives I'm surprised there are no sex tapes from the group. Not that I want to see that bespectacled troll naked [shudder!]

by Anonymousreply 24310/15/2020

Wondering if a lot of the disciples rarely saw him—maybe his appearances were reserved for only the high rollers—and the rest were enticed/indoctrinated by the second tier: Allison, Nancy, Lauren, etc. ??

by Anonymousreply 24410/15/2020

Say what you will about Keith, but the one thing he does have is great hair...at least after it was cut and styled.

by Anonymousreply 24510/15/2020

"I don't find Keith charismatic AT ALL. I don't get how he has ever had anyone pay attention to anything he says or does. He is a short, unattractive, little troll with horrible hair. What in the world do these sheeple see in him?"

'Charismatic' does not mean fuckable or even physically attractive. If you think about cult leaders, many of them are not conventionally attractive. They do have something that draws people to them but it's hard to define what that something is.

by Anonymousreply 24610/15/2020

R246, I can’t think of a single cult leader who wasn’t either handsome or conventionally attractive as far as good bone structure / symmetry goes, aside from Troll “Queef” Raniere.

by Anonymousreply 24710/15/2020

R246, I understand the definition of "charismatic" and this guy ain't it. No way, shape, or form, regardless of his looks.

by Anonymousreply 24810/15/2020

[R247], how about L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology) Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (Transcendental Meditation) Sun Myung Moon (Moonies/ Unification Church) David Berg (Children of God) Bikram Choudhury (Bikram Yoga)

Some of these people might have been passible when young, but when they actually were cult leaders they were homely at best.

by Anonymousreply 24910/15/2020

[quote]I get that Mark apparently decided to document every fucking minute of his life with a camera. But what's with those supposedly personal conversations between Nippy and Sarah in their own home?

Yeah, I don't get that either.

Having said that, I can't complain about any opportunity to look at Nippy.

by Anonymousreply 25010/15/2020

Is it me or is this thing stretched out waaaay too thin? I'll finish since I'm 8 episodes in, but it's twice as long as in needed to be. Also, I'm getting tired of these privileged rich people who had nothing better to do than join this inane self help cult. I guess if you don't need to go to a job and have a lot of time on your hands it was something to do.

I'm not clear on whether they all lived together in Albany or lived apart. What is that townhouse subdivision they show aerial shots of in every episode? Did they all live there?

by Anonymousreply 25110/15/2020

R251 I think the Bronfmans paid for all their housing in Albany.

I don’t think ALL the members lived in Albany, someone had to run their training centers, after all. I think just Keith’s inner circle of concubines lived there.

I find it hard to completely dislike Sarah. Yeah, she’s a fucking idiot! But she’s less irritating than Mark. I also think she’s accepted her role in NXIVM and how fucked up it all was, more so than Mark. Her interview with Mark Rosenbaum (who worked with Alison Mack on Smallville) was interesting.

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by Anonymousreply 25210/15/2020

Ti and Do, formerly known as Bo and Peep.

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by Anonymousreply 25310/15/2020

Does anyone know why a cult leader with millions of his followers' dollars to play with wanted to live in - of all places - Albany NY?

It's not the worst city in the world but there are places with much better weather.

by Anonymousreply 25410/15/2020

I think it proves your commitment: You REALLY have to be a believer to put up with Albany.

by Anonymousreply 25510/15/2020

R238, Mark was mortified in the scene with the dog bed and did a little mea culpa, I thought....no? That whole thing about not really acknowledging how creepy it was when it happened? I’m actually not a fan of Mark either but he did seem genuinely upset to me...

by Anonymousreply 25610/15/2020

R256, no, he was seething that Catherine had raised an instance of him abusing her on camera and tried to minimize his role in forcing her to sleep in the dog bed and then attacked Catherine for bringing it up. He’s scum and refuses to take any responsibility. His version of accountability is basically “well, I’m sorry I’m an idealist who believes in human potential, some people just don’t have the inner drive to want to change the world and so maybe can’t understand what we were striving for” and never “that was enormously fucked up of me, I’m so sorry”. Also, he took a deal to get out of racketeering charges.

by Anonymousreply 25710/15/2020

They actually lived in the town of Halfmoon, north of Albany in Saratoga County. Maybe they keep referring to Albany because that’s the airport they fly in and out of.

by Anonymousreply 25810/15/2020

R257, that is a very valid read on that scene. I’m going to rewatch. Thank you for reframing it for me. :)

by Anonymousreply 25910/15/2020

R257 why are you insisting on defending Catherine? She has no business making fun of their trauma. She's a privileged woman who is now exploiting her daughter's ordeal with tv/interviews/books and she flippantly made fun of a situation that is none of her business. Bonnie wasn't having it either. We get it, you hate Mark. But they were in a fucked up cult. Unless you also think Bonnie has no agency?

by Anonymousreply 26010/15/2020

R260, so you've decided to join the conversation here, Mark?

by Anonymousreply 26110/15/2020

yeah i'm mark, that's it.

by Anonymousreply 26210/15/2020

r260, Catherine was pointing out the insanity of what Bonnie had come to believe was normal and acceptable treatment from her husband. Bonnie seemed fine until Mark told her she wasn’t fine, just like he told her to sleep in a dog bed, just like he wired their home with surveillance cameras so she had to hide in corners to make phone calls. Mark is an abuser. Mark does not take responsibility for his actions. Mark is a misogynist. And Bonnie, like many women, is trapped in an abusive marriage, abuse which is compounded by the cult trauma she will never be able to fully process if she sticks with Mark who is still engaging in high control techniques he honed during his 15 years being Queef’s protégé. His lack of response when Nippy was taking accountability for the horrific things they’d both done, his continued referral to women as “girls” and men as “men” and the way he treated Bonnie and Catherine in the dog bed scene tells you absolutely everything you need to know about that neckbeard.

by Anonymousreply 26310/15/2020

DL detectives... what do we think about the mass food "poisoning" that affected Vanguard Week in 2016? Did Keith have the cult members poisoned?!?

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by Anonymousreply 26410/15/2020

"Divorced after 16 years - whats the dish? was he fucking every young starlet in Hollywood or was she a raging bitch? There has to be a baddie and a goodie :)"

He was physically abusing her--beating her and so on. He was arrested for it at some point.

by Anonymousreply 26510/15/2020

I was kind of in Bonnie's corner. Tarot readings? Are you freaking kidding me.

by Anonymousreply 26610/15/2020

If Mark joins another cult, do we get to see another eight part documentary on HBO? I sure hope so. 🙄

by Anonymousreply 26710/15/2020

[quote]He’s scum and refuses to take any responsibility. His version of accountability is basically “well, I’m sorry I’m an idealist who believes in human potential, some people just don’t have the inner drive to want to change the world and so maybe can’t understand what we were striving for” and never “that was enormously fucked up of me, I’m so sorry”.

This is exactly why Mark creeps me out far more than Sarah does. Sarah suceeding as a saleswoman and marketing more so than being a True Believer. He jumps from cult to cult and has an enormous sense of self-satisfaction, as does Tarot Star Wars.

by Anonymousreply 26810/15/2020

I like the idea that he was trying to kill all of his acolytes off, having decided they were simply too stupid to live.

by Anonymousreply 26910/16/2020

[quote]If Mark joins another cult, do we get to see another eight part documentary on HBO? I sure hope so. 🙄

If The Vow is adapted into a dramatic TV series, he'll probably insist on playing himself. With music composed by Bonnie.

by Anonymousreply 27010/16/2020

The Times this morning recommends another Nxivm doc on STARZ and says it's better than the HBO version. And it's shorter.

by Anonymousreply 27110/16/2020

I think the Starz project is India Oxenberg telling her story, who will at least be a welcome change from Mark.

I started to listen to listen to Catherine Oxenberg's audiobook and it's pretty good. It's pretty revealing how she says she thought it was all the same-old, same-old from the start, hated Nancy, hated Keith and badmouthed everything about it but she kept pouring time and money into it for few years. Partially to be connected to India, partially because she would do the odd course and find some benefit from it and partially because she has always has 1-3 mind-body-spirit obsessions on the go at a time and EST fit the bill for a certain period. She bragged about Casper being an alpha male and had some issues with pills that broke up her friendship with Gabrielle Anwar and scuttered her involvement in their Sexology project (Catherine got into female sexuality after reading Vagina by Naomi Wolf and Fifty Shades Of Grey. She bought dozens of copies of Vagina and piled it by the front door to give to every woman who walked into her home.)

Rosario Dawson was at her very first session but left after 3 days due to a death in the family. So was Callum Blue, who acted his way through the EM sessions, made Nancy think his alcohol was cured and promptly went to the pub.

by Anonymousreply 27210/16/2020

Does anyone here know if DirectTV merged with AT&T? My login on HBO max no longer works (as of a few weeks ago) with DirecTV and the link is now AT&T - so I haven't been able to continue this show.

by Anonymousreply 27310/16/2020

They merged like two years ago and HBO Max still works. You may need to update your login credentials on the DirecTV site. It’s a clunky merger with the sites redirecting, but it does work despite being clumsy.

by Anonymousreply 27410/16/2020

The Vow has been renewed for a season 2.

by Anonymousreply 27510/16/2020

Zero interest in watching any more of psycho Mark, handmaiden Bonnie or Sarah & Nippy. Not interested in a whole season of India, either. If it gets into the deal Nancy and Keith struck and all the girlfriends/followers he seemingly murdered then I might be interested. I’d also like to hear from the teenager he held prisoner in a bedroom of one of those condos for years on end, with her family’s approval.

by Anonymousreply 27610/16/2020

^ I am so much more interested in Nancy and the Mexicans.

Though I wouldn’t complain about seeing more Nippy. Nippy shirtless, Nippy flexing, Nippy laughing, Nippy shirtless.

by Anonymousreply 27710/16/2020

They are doing a second season of this thing!?!?!

That is insanity. Once this "season" is over I've had sufficient.

by Anonymousreply 27810/16/2020

[quote]The Vow has been renewed for a season 2.

This is clearly a joke post

by Anonymousreply 27910/16/2020

I didn't post that R279, but it is true.

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by Anonymousreply 28010/16/2020

I think another season could be interesting, as long as it moved the focus away from Mark, Sarah, Nippy, Catherine, etc. Maybe season 2 can uncover if Queef really Keith?

by Anonymousreply 28110/16/2020

As Mark and Bonnie shared their video and audio footage with The Vow people, they must be making money from it somehow.

by Anonymousreply 28210/16/2020

Nancy, the woman who started it with Keith and whored her own daughter out to him we need to know more about. The bitch is complicit.

by Anonymousreply 28310/16/2020

YES! I find that cunt Nancy to be the most enigmatic and interesting of them all.

by Anonymousreply 28410/16/2020

This does not need a season two...yuck.

by Anonymousreply 28510/16/2020

And did Nancy fuck him too? I realize towards the end he started getting more picky and going for the young stuff but seems like at the beginning he was fucking anything.

by Anonymousreply 28610/16/2020

Yeah, he was fucking both Nancy and her daughter, Lauren. The cops found millions of dollars in cash hidden in the attic and walls and floors of her condo when they raided it. She's out on 5 million bond, but probably not for long. Lauren is on house arrest.

Also, India was in love with Allison Mack, even before DOS started, which made her even more susceptible to coercion. Allison is still Green Card married to Nikki Clyne, who still appears to be a Keith loyalist, and is taking...wait for it...Gender Studies courses at UC Berkeley -- because nothing deprograms a person out of misogynist cult dogma like more misogynist cult dogma.

The weirdest part to me is that, despite having defied all the odds, having managed to overcome his entire personality and appearance and having sustained decades of power over a harem, all of Keith's rhetoric is still King Of The Incels bullshit.

I'm offended that Mark not only escaped what should have been serious prison time and fled the country so he can't be easily brought back in on additional charges, but that he orchestrated this series to try to paint himself as a victim, while he's continuing to abuse his wife in isolation in Portugal. He's grotesque and just as twisted as Keith.

by Anonymousreply 28710/17/2020

R287 Mark and Bonnie live in Portugal?

by Anonymousreply 28810/17/2020

It is fascinating to me that some people can make money when being in a cult and then even more money when leaving a cult. They can monetize anything. Amazing.

by Anonymousreply 28910/17/2020

r288, yeah, they moved to Portugal.

The only person I know who has moved to Portugal did so, after getting in serious legal trouble in both Hokkaido and NYC. He picked Portugal because he knew a Baroness living there who was infatuated with him and willing to financially take care of him in exchange for him basically becoming her gigolo.

In a just world, Mark would be living at Rikers.

by Anonymousreply 29010/17/2020

R287 How do you know they live in Portugal? From the series it was stated they live in a non disclosed location somewhere in California.

by Anonymousreply 29110/17/2020

You can always tell that wheels are turning in Mark's head when he answers an unplanned question, like one that Nippy or Catherine asked him. As if he's struggling to find the "right" answer to say on camera. Whereas Nippy just speaks from his heart. You can tell there is no guilt in Nippy's mind.

by Anonymousreply 29210/17/2020

R291 They say they live in Portugal, that's how we know.

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by Anonymousreply 29310/17/2020

I don’t see the hotness you guys see in Nippy. He looks so average I can’t even remember what he looks like.

by Anonymousreply 29410/17/2020

r294, Nippy reminds me of the kind of blueblood, old money WASPs of whom Scott Fitzgerald was so jealous. He'd be more attractive if he lost about 30 pounds of baby weight.

by Anonymousreply 29510/17/2020

Thanks R293. I enjoy the series, but not interested in reading everything about them.

by Anonymousreply 29610/17/2020

Nipsy Russell has the personality of a garden lump. And fuck, so does the wife. She's so boring I cannot even remember her name. She seems VERY thirsty. Very.

I'd let Nipsy mount me, regardless. But I'd be bored.

by Anonymousreply 29710/17/2020

Sarah has a fun personality. I think she could get a job on a talk show, as part of a round table.

by Anonymousreply 29810/17/2020

I feel like Bonnie is more complicit than she makes out. Her new career as a tarot reader raises major red flags for me.

by Anonymousreply 29910/17/2020

Nippy was quite attractive when he was younger

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by Anonymousreply 30010/17/2020

Nippy is too fleshy and his hairline is receding. But compared to the other men in that cult he looked like a stud.

by Anonymousreply 30110/17/2020

Had he concentrated more on his career Nippy could have made an income as a Hallmark channel hunk, in which case he would have worked out, tanned and gotten a hair transplant like any other working actor pushing 40.

by Anonymousreply 30210/17/2020

I want to taste the sweet, abundant semen coming out of Keithos thick, 7.5 size meet.

by Anonymousreply 30310/18/2020

So I think "Rachel" the black urban farmer is Michelle Hatchette. She was Allison Mack's slave, and then transferred (was sold?) to Nicki Clyne. She still performs in the weekly jail dances with Nicki and Dr Danielle Roberts.

by Anonymousreply 30410/18/2020

Are we supposed to know who Michelle Hatchette is?

by Anonymousreply 30510/18/2020

The documentary on Starz is far superior, and much more accurate.

by Anonymousreply 306Last Monday at 6:15 AM

What has been factually inaccurate about The Vow?

by Anonymousreply 307Last Monday at 6:24 AM

I can’t tell you everything, just take my word for it.

by Anonymousreply 308Last Monday at 6:48 AM

It’s kind of hard to be factually inaccurate when the whole documentary consists of real audio and video.

by Anonymousreply 309Last Monday at 6:52 AM

How do you know that it’s all “real”?

by Anonymousreply 310Last Monday at 7:15 AM

The problem with The Vow is there is no sense of time. Lots of re-enactments and reaction shots of Mark/Bonnie having pre-recorded phone conversations.

The filmmakers had taken NXIVM courses as well.

by Anonymousreply 311Last Monday at 7:20 AM

Exactly, and the goal for all of them is to justify why they dedicated themselves to this cult. They don’t want you to think that they were brainwashed or that they’re stupid. Fun fact: many of these people were in other cults before this one.

by Anonymousreply 312Last Monday at 7:33 AM

Oh, and that information has been conveniently left out.

by Anonymousreply 313Last Monday at 7:34 AM

Glad I'm not the only person who find Sarah and Mark repellent. Sarah's thirsty, actress-y "I'm number one!" personality and Mark's ability to shape-shift on a dime made me wonder how HBO allowed him to hijack the entire series. I suppose they had to because he had all the footage. He's a complete sleaze and an opportunist. Ditto Sarah. She has that undereducated, but eked out a living by her wits hardness that screams narcissist. I want Bonnie to run for the hills away from these people. She actually seems to have a real personality. The rest of them don't. Maybe that's what drew them to Keith.

The more I watched, the more annoyed I got. ALL cults, every single one of them, control food intake and sleep deprive their members to maintain mind control, and the second I saw the volleyball games, I thought, "how could you possibly think playing volleyball for seven hour sessions overnight is improving your life in any way?" Also, why was Keith so weight-obsessed himself? It was constant walking, volleyball, he met his ex skiing etc. and yet he's a little blimp himself.

I want to finish the series, but watching people fall for this bullshit is mystifying. It's like the Trumpanzees. What do they not get? It's all a giant lie.

by Anonymousreply 314Last Monday at 8:09 AM

[quote] I want Bonnie to run for the hills away from these people. She actually seems to have a real personality. The rest of them don't. Maybe that's what drew them to Keith.

Bonnie is the clean, nice, respectable face of whistleblowing and I don’t trust her one bit. Dude, she married a white South African 20 years her senior for a reason and consented to sleeping in a dog bed which was STILL in their bedroom - she is entirely compatible with him. She’s now a tarot reader in Portugal for fuck’s sake.

by Anonymousreply 315Last Monday at 8:18 AM

And YOU have the card of gastrointestinal problems, R315. Don't believe me? Try not to fart all day!

by Anonymousreply 316Last Monday at 9:25 AM

Glad I’m not the only ones who found the ex-culties unlikeable. I got the vibe they were failed entertainment business wannabes who were excited to finally get some notoreity

by Anonymousreply 317Last Monday at 9:59 AM

Bonnie is crazy AF!

by Anonymousreply 318Last Monday at 11:31 AM

Very disappointing. Exactly what did Raniere do? Unclear. How did NVXIM harass and hassle the defectors? Unclear. Exactly what did the FBI arrest everyone for? Unclear. Altogether nebulous and unsatisfying. And if that's because it's setting up a second season (as if it wasn't protracted enough already), that's ludicrous.

by Anonymousreply 319Last Monday at 2:00 PM

Where can I see the STARz doc without STARz?

by Anonymousreply 320Last Monday at 2:03 PM

You’re probably right r315. She’s got a screw or two loose but she seems less Me-me-me than the others. As well, she fucked off out of there early because she saw how awful the cult was. Why she can’t get away from her old man husband remains a mystery. I bet once she starts reading what people think of Mark she’ll dump him in a few months. He’s a snake.

by Anonymousreply 321Last Monday at 3:30 PM

Yes, I too would like to see a less biased documentary.

by Anonymousreply 322Last Monday at 5:00 PM

What is the Starz documentary called?

by Anonymousreply 323Last Monday at 5:36 PM

'Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult' is the Starz four-parter.

by Anonymousreply 324Last Monday at 7:17 PM

The Starz doc is a four parter; they've only aired one episode. After investing nine hours in the HBO one, I'll wait til we hear how good the Starz doc is after its aired in entirety before wasting any more time on Keith and the suckers of his sweet semen.

by Anonymousreply 325Last Monday at 7:34 PM

[quote] How did NVXIM harass and hassle the defectors?

In about 2008-2010 there were the NXIVM Nine - a bunch of women who were pissed about financial impropriety and that the female board was ducking Keith - and the Bronfman women spent money omg legal dirty tricks.

There is a CBC podcast by a journalist who was childhood friend of Sarah’s from Jewish day camp that goes into the ins and outs of the Scientology type aspect of it.

by Anonymousreply 326Last Tuesday at 1:06 AM

[quote] As well, she fucked off out of there early because she saw how awful the cult was.

Bonnie left months, not years, before Mark.

by Anonymousreply 327Last Tuesday at 1:07 AM

Its not like those are independent events r327. Bonnie convinced Mark to leave, who then convinced Sarah to leave. She started that train reaction and who knows what would have happened there if she hadn't.

by Anonymousreply 328Last Tuesday at 1:59 AM

Heh, chain* reaction

by Anonymousreply 329Last Tuesday at 2:00 AM

Nah, Sarah would have eventually left regardless of Mark and Bonnie because she had a breakdown because of the branding and was grossed out by the idea of fucking Keith.

Mark and Bonnie are very good at centering themselves in this narrative.

by Anonymousreply 330Last Tuesday at 2:24 AM

SEDUCED is so far very good. By focusing on India Oxenberg, it offers a step-by-step look at how some of these women were slowly drawn into the web. And hr grandma, Princess Elizabeth, is an early face for best supporting character.

I think I heard during the show that the Bronfman sisters supplied something like 200 million to the cult. Wow.

by Anonymousreply 331Last Tuesday at 4:32 AM

There were more people involved with getting Bonnie and Mark out of the cult, but they don’t want you to know that.

by Anonymousreply 332Last Tuesday at 6:27 AM

Tell us more R332. After seeing episode one of Seduced I regret wasting 9 hours on the Mark, Bonnie, Sarah and Nippy show.

by Anonymousreply 333Last Tuesday at 10:59 AM

Yes r331. I was floored at how much the Bronfman’s spent. It’s horrifying how Raniere was able to convince seemingly intelligent, creative people to lose all sense of logic and reality.

Sociopaths. Gotta watch for them like hawks.

by Anonymousreply 334Last Tuesday at 12:57 PM

I'm at loss on how that little Raniere troll enticed so many. We saw enough footage of him to have that "Oh, yep, there it is, there's the faux magnetism and charisma" but he didn't even muster that. He's just that virgin stoner guy in undergrad with incense and patchouli and farts wafting out of his dorm room. We all encountered him and now he works in a food coop and drives an 89 Subaru.

Christ people are retarded.

by Anonymousreply 335Last Tuesday at 1:11 PM

He did have a talent for making moronic rich people feel guilty for having money and forking it over to him.

by Anonymousreply 336Last Tuesday at 1:16 PM

The Bronfman girls have to have been very vulnerable and needy to have been duped out of that much money. Would be sad if they hadn't done so much harm.

by Anonymousreply 337Last Tuesday at 2:50 PM

R337, or just stupid....

by Anonymousreply 338Last Tuesday at 2:51 PM

Here’s a nice comparison of the two.

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by Anonymousreply 339Last Tuesday at 3:16 PM

^ Interesting article. Thanks

by Anonymousreply 340Last Tuesday at 4:11 PM

Damn. I'm going to have to get Starz, aren't I?

by Anonymousreply 341Last Tuesday at 4:30 PM

That article is spot on R339. I did feel like I wasted 9 hours on The Vow after seeing the first episode of Seduced. And Mark was so creepy. Thanks for posting.

by Anonymousreply 342Last Tuesday at 5:29 PM

Starz is on Hulu too.

by Anonymousreply 343Last Tuesday at 5:46 PM

That's not an article at r339 it's a press release

by Anonymousreply 344Last Tuesday at 7:37 PM

R344 = creepy misogynist beta Mark Vicente

Can you imagine what a flop you’d have to be to play beta to *Keith’s* alpha?

by Anonymousreply 345Last Tuesday at 7:40 PM

I don't think The Vow underplayed Keith's menace so much as it had a slow burn reveal. The finale really brings it home that this man is an incredibly twisted sociopath who enjoyed not only playing with and humiliating these people for years, but in many cases like Mark and Bonnie, he outright told them from the beginning what he was going to do to them in the guise of spiritual allegories. It's so staggeringly evil and premeditated and elaborate. He kept it going for decades. I came away thinking it's a really good thing that statistically sociopaths are of average to below average intelligence because just ONE intelligent one can do a vast amount of damage.

R345 I totally thought Mark was in love with Keith. He even admitted to getting jealous of his girlfriends! Bitch please.

by Anonymousreply 346Last Tuesday at 7:44 PM

We knew it! Before we even knew of this other documentary, Seduced, we knew Mark was shady!

by Anonymousreply 347Last Tuesday at 7:45 PM

The way Mark looked at Keith was gross.

by Anonymousreply 348Last Tuesday at 7:47 PM

It was obvious to anyone with half a brain that every single "victim" on The Vow was to some degree or another complicit in Raniere's evil and many of them were underplaying it and desperate to create public redemption narratives for themselves.

by Anonymousreply 349Last Tuesday at 7:50 PM

r345 Hey Cathy!

by Anonymousreply 350Last Tuesday at 7:53 PM

Mark, no one who wasn’t in your cult has any idea who “Cathy“ is. Stop while you’re behind.

by Anonymousreply 351Last Tuesday at 8:02 PM

why do you call anyone who disagrees with you "marK" r351?

by Anonymousreply 352Last Tuesday at 8:12 PM

I watched the first episode of the Starz show on this and it was pretty good

by Anonymousreply 353Last Tuesday at 9:10 PM

[quote]I don't think The Vow underplayed Keith's menace so much as it had a slow burn reveal.

It was not very well made. The pacing was poor, the timeline was off and the filmmakers were ex-ESP members.

by Anonymousreply 354Last Tuesday at 9:15 PM

Started watching THE LOST WOMEN OF NXIVM on the ID channnel. It's got some interesting information, but boy is it shlocky!

by Anonymousreply 355Last Wednesday at 3:31 AM

Ughhhhhh now I have to get Starz

by Anonymousreply 356Last Wednesday at 5:10 AM

R356 Ugh, I feel the same! I think I'll subscribe to Starz once episode 4 has aired, so I can binge it. We'll see how much self control I have. I'll probably subscribe to Starz tomorrow.

Is there a new thread for the India Oxenberg show, or are we staying here? And just accusing anyone who likes The Vow more of being Mark?

by Anonymousreply 357Last Wednesday at 5:58 AM

Fun fact: Even though they weren’t EPs, Mark and Bonnie were definitely involved with making the Vow. It’s a documentary designed to make money, because no one wants to work with them, and justify their roles in the cult. I bet they’re fuming at the Starz doc, it turns the Nxivm hierarchy in its head. Now India and other less powerful ex-cult members are in control of the story, not Mark.

by Anonymousreply 358Last Wednesday at 6:08 AM

If I were those woman like Keith’s long ago girlfriend who is still being harassed I would not be so trusting or forgiving of Mark

by Anonymousreply 359Last Wednesday at 10:53 AM

I’m not sure how much more obvious it could be that Mark and Sarah made a deal with the FBI and flipped for some degree of immunity. I don’t think it’s incidental at all that both couples fled the country in an attempt to complicate any further charges that might be filed against them for additional crimes that come to light during the investigation and prosecution of Keith’s other henchmen.

by Anonymousreply 360Last Wednesday at 11:02 AM

The Starz documentary is far superior to HBO's, imo.

by Anonymousreply 361Last Wednesday at 11:24 AM

r339 Thanks for that article, it all makes sense now. Watching the Vow was interesting as first but eventually became maddening, meandering and too much of Mark trying to put his narrative out there. I was confused about how it all fit together yet stuck with it, thinking it would even eventually become coherent. It did not. Is that what they felt happened to them in this cult? See how easy it is, viewers?

Fuck these shady profiteers for not exposing what Keith was really up to. The Frank Report can be hard to navigate but the real dirt is on there. I am still trying to figure out how they got away with stealing so much “tech” from super litigious Scientology. Keith was such a uncharistmatic blob, even with all that NLP, that I yearned for the random pauses and intonations of L. Ron Hubbard to make that garbage listenable.

by Anonymousreply 362Last Wednesday at 3:22 PM

Maybe I'm giving the producers too much credit, but I actually don't think The Vow was trying to make Mark, Bonnie, Sarah and Nippy look like victims. I think it was trying to make them look like people who are desperately trying to cast themselves in the victim roles, and it did that handily. The producers gave them enough rope to hang themselves and they didn't come off looking good at all. The way they kept saying they were good people, over and over - it was like listening to people talk about how they're "empaths." If you have to say it...

by Anonymousreply 363Last Wednesday at 4:22 PM

No chance for a Smallville revival now

by Anonymousreply 364Last Wednesday at 6:30 PM

Isn't it possible that Mark, Sarah, Bonnie & Nippy can be... victims AND perpetrators? I don't think it's as black and white as some people are making it out. I mean, these people must really be lacking something if they're sucked into a fucking MLM cult that evolved into a sex cult.

by Anonymousreply 365Last Wednesday at 6:34 PM

R365, How do you imagine Mark was victimized? What was done to him? In which situation was Mark’s agency taken from him?

by Anonymousreply 366Last Wednesday at 7:18 PM

I’m finally watching the last episode and I, now, think Mark is a legit sociopath and not just a craven, shiftless, “nice guy” aspiring tyrant. He seriously thought he could use this doc to paint himself as a white knight and that people would see him as a hero.

Fifty bucks says he’s back in the news in fifteen years for strangling Bonnie to death and tries to put forth a self-defense argument.

by Anonymousreply 367Last Wednesday at 7:57 PM

Or he starts his own "cult."

by Anonymousreply 368Last Wednesday at 8:09 PM

R366 You're right. I really shouldn't have mentioned Mark. I think he went along with this too happily.

by Anonymousreply 369Last Wednesday at 8:17 PM

Keith is so cringey to watch. Ugly face, pudgy dwarf body, greasy hair and beard. He looks like he smells, especially wen he's in that volley ball get up. Just...ew. Disgusting in every way, and that's before he opens his mouth to vomit all that nonsensical word salad horse shit.

It's incredible to me that 'anyone' followed that loser, let alone so many smart, talented, attractive, rich and successful people. Didn't any of these sheeple Google his pathetic ass before going all in on his cult? He was a failed MLM entrepreneur, had several lawsuits against him, raped underaged girls. The "smartest man alive" graduated college with a 2.4 GPA. LOLOLOL. WT actual F.

by Anonymousreply 370Last Thursday at 2:48 AM

Cult leader is accused of raping at least three very young girls. I wonder if he starved the women the cult to make them look like pre-teens.

by Anonymousreply 371Last Thursday at 3:31 AM

That Pam woman, the love of his life, was a skeleton. He also liked a full bush.

Mark shows how much cult victims lack critical thinking. That's what gets them hooked. He was impressed by Keith's high IQ. Anyone with a bit of life experience knows that a high IQ or even intelligence shows cognitive potential to understand concepts and not that they actually DO anything with their ability.

by Anonymousreply 372Last Thursday at 3:37 AM

[quote]It's incredible to me that 'anyone' followed that loser, let alone so many smart, talented, attractive, rich and successful people.

It's only incredible if that you assume that these "smart, talented, attractive, rich and successful people" have earned their success through hard work and common sense and street smarts: they haven't, and they know it, and that's why they're looking for something to fill the void.

by Anonymousreply 373Last Thursday at 3:41 AM

If you saw some of the videos, especially from V week, and especially ones not seen in the documentaries, there aren’t many attractive people. It’s a bunch of girls with scarves holding their coffee with two hands.

by Anonymousreply 374Last Thursday at 5:58 AM

Yeah, by the end I had zero sympathy for Mark and also started wondering what else he might be capable of. I’m sure he’s humiliated at being revealed as a jerk, despite an attempt to give himself the “hero edit” in this series. Once you look into the actual crimes committed (conveniently not laid out in this documentary), you realize that as someone high up, on the BoD and as involved with Keith and his desire to “break” the women into submission, you understand that he is not exactly an innocent victim. He’s complicit. The crimes were not a one time thing, they went on for years and Mark stayed, even though his wife was extremely uncomfortable with the situation. I don’t think there is a “there” there with him.

by Anonymousreply 375Last Thursday at 6:36 AM

It’s been said Keith was poisoning the so called love of his life Pam

by Anonymousreply 376Last Thursday at 7:04 AM

General cult question, can anyone recommend a good book about cults? Since watching The Vow, I'm particularly fascinated by how the brainwashing can go from "take this $2000 class to better yourself" to "oops, you're a sex slave"! It doesn't have to be about NXIVM, but I want to read more about them.

by Anonymousreply 377Last Thursday at 7:10 AM

Is Pam the one who died of a mysterious illness? They should exhume her body.

by Anonymousreply 378Last Thursday at 7:21 AM

Manson and his followers were a cult too. How do you go from a very ordinary background to killing people R377?

by Anonymousreply 379Last Thursday at 7:21 AM

Oh please, R373. These are not people without many, MANY better options. If you feel you absolutely must turn over your life to someone and be their sex slave, at least pick someone gorgeous, fit and sexy. Someone who looks and smells like he might bathe regularly.

by Anonymousreply 380Last Thursday at 8:04 AM

From what I could see, this toad just gave these narcissists a lot of personal attention. And they lapped it up like starving dogs.

by Anonymousreply 381Last Thursday at 8:07 AM

I thought the first episode did a good job of showing how people got hooked in the early classes... they wanted to improve themselves, and facing an obstacle and overcoming it gives you a natural high.

What I think the Vow really skipped over was the $$$, unless I missed it. I think Sarah mentioned that this was her business, and she got commissions for bringing people in, but the show didn't really go into the numbers. If you're making money by bringing in new recruits, and you tell yourself that you're helping all these people, that would make it very attractive to stay in the cult.

by Anonymousreply 382Last Thursday at 8:41 AM

I think Sarah and Nippy should pay people back, it’s not fair that they’re living in a luxurious residence, even if it’s disgustingly filthy. Mark and Bonnie are pretty much destitute, living in a run down apartment before they moved to Portugal.

by Anonymousreply 383Last Thursday at 10:29 AM

They must have SOME money if they can up and move to Portugal.

by Anonymousreply 384Last Thursday at 11:14 AM

R384, Bonnie saved up her Tarot money and Mark probably made her hide in a suitcase while he took the seat in couch, complaining about leg room the whole time.

by Anonymousreply 385Last Thursday at 1:11 PM

Portugal is relatively cheap R384. For less than $2500/month you can live quite comfortably.

by Anonymousreply 386Last Thursday at 1:22 PM

r377 I read Combating Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan for a college class about 15 years ago. Around the same time I fell into a message board gossip rabbit hole regarding Katie Holmes possibly faking running the NYC marathon with the help of Scientology, via her new beau Tom Cruise. That led me to Tony Ortega’s website and the Operation Clambake message boards where ex-Scientology members were sharing their stories of being in that cult. Steve Hassan’s book really helped me understand how people can be sucked in so quickly and find it so hard to leave.

by Anonymousreply 387Last Thursday at 2:26 PM

She really didn’t run the NYC marathon. It was part of Scientology’s plan to make her appear as the all round perfect Scientology wife. She can sing! She can dance! She can act! She’s a designer! She can run a marathon!

by Anonymousreply 388Last Thursday at 5:25 PM

R386 Just ask Madonna!

by Anonymousreply 389Last Thursday at 6:26 PM

-r377 -r387 I wish there was a good non-academic history of the rise in the West of both the cult movements in the late 60s and the various anti-cult responses (they are fascinating too - the evangelical ministries on the one hand and the secular de-programmers on the other (who often have no professional training and who used ethically dubious methods involving kidnapping and involuntary confinement to a market of distraught parents who would pay anything to restore relationships with their kids who suddenly cut them out of their lives completely) but there isn't one that I have found. I agree that Hassan is the most reputable of the cult skeptics (he has a good Youtube channel) and does his best to apply academic rigor and maintain objectivity despite his ex-Mooney past and Tony Ortega is by far the best journalist to read on scientology (he was covering it full time at the Village Voice for decades even when most journalists were terrified of being sued out business if they even printed the word Scientology).

As an aside, if you want a brief yet entertaining gloss on the peculiar state of the academic study of cults found itself in by mid 90s, the short lived but brilliant magazine Linga Franca ran one of its best articles on the subject in December of 1998 (link attached). For those who weren't grad students in the 90s, Lingua Franca was a sort cheeky middle brough magazine/journal of academia that managed to find a good blend of gossip and serious reporting on the intersection of the professional and personal lives of US academics and their students and used that frame to shed some light on the often-messy reality of knowledge production in the modern western research university system. Although it only ran for from 1990 to 2001, I am amazed at how well most of the articles hold up to this day - luckily, most of the issues are freely available in full text in a great online archive created by none other than the late Aaron (NOT GAY) Swartz as a test run I suppose for his later attempts to do the same on a much larger scale for JSTOR (Linga Franca wasn't owned by a multi-national database corporation so it probably cooperated with him - JSTOR was not so benign). If Linga Franca were still around, I have no doubt that it would have published a great article that examined the NOT GAY online diary entry, the dynamics of internalized homophobia and why the subject was almost entirely absent from the voluminous public discourse surrounding his death (it barely even got much traction on DL...) But I ramble...

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 390Last Thursday at 7:33 PM

I’m actually enjoying the Starz one more than the HBO one. The HBO one got so boring towards the end. Starz is always running specials. I got 6 months for 20 bucks with some Promotion a while back.

by Anonymousreply 391Last Thursday at 9:26 PM

I wanted at least one of these two things from The Vow: either tell me about their beliefs and 'doctrine' or give me trashy, salacious details in every episode that will keep me entertained. The Vow failed on both counts.

Looking at Frank Parlato's blog supplied plenty of the details of Keith's weird svengali-like sexual exploitation of his followers, I still don't know what they taught in those classes or courses or whatever and what the NVIXM courses actually taught.

I like reading and watching shit about fringe religions and cult-ish training programs like EST. set the last half of the Vow was just a giant nothing Burger.

Can anyone here tell me exactly what these people believed? What was taught in those courses? I get that they borrowed terminology from Scientology. But it doesn't sound like they did $cino auditing or talked about Xenu or crap like that. What about their philosophy was so compelling that people remained in the organization committed despite the abuse?

by Anonymousreply 392Last Thursday at 11:26 PM

The first episode of the STARZ series "Seduced" was much more informative and interesting. R392 a lot of info about their teachings was presented......

by Anonymousreply 393Last Friday at 6:57 AM

-r392 The Starz series seems to hew more to the conventions of traditional documentary filmmaking than the HBO's - the personal narrative of the India and her family and friends is supplemented with short cameos by academic and other subject matter experts who provide historical, psychological and political context when needed (anyone who has seen many Scientology docs will recognize folks like Hassan or Janja Lalich). I can't remember the exact genealogy of NVIXM but Keith apparently cribbed heavily from the self-help gurus of the late 80s/early 90s and incorporated a multilevel marketing aspect for recruitment (there was a short bit comparing word for word some of Keith's nostrums with other gurus who were popular at the time but now long forgotten). He also was heavily influenced by the Fountainhead and objectivism in general along with the new age Wishy "you create your own reality" crap. The EM sessions are rebranded versions of scientology auditing, which was obvious to anyone who is familiar with Scientology. Although they pushed expensive coursework and seminars, they don't seem to have made much money from that probably because they the Brofman sugar mommas made fundraising irrelevant. Even with all that background, I am still surprised that anyone took him seriously...

by Anonymousreply 394Last Friday at 7:10 AM

[quote]What about their philosophy was so compelling that people remained in the organization committed despite the abuse?

The ESP folk went for easy targets, people who were into their brand of woo woo. Catherine Oxenberg had a very West Coast spiritual life with angels and gurus and yoga and self-help galore, so she fit right in, but she is also a traditional second-wave feminist. Though she liked the therapy aspect of the EM sessions, she didn't buy what Jness was selling. She took courses for a few years before leaving.

Similarly they had Mark as a well, a mark, as soon as his dopey documentary came out. They saw it and knew he'd fit right in. He didn't capitalise on the success of What the Bleep by developing more projects, he spend a year playing night volleyball to get some of Keith's attention. Bonnie was introduced to Mark because she was a huge fan of What The Bleep. Another easy mark.

by Anonymousreply 395Last Friday at 9:46 AM

The Bronfman mother is now married to Nigel Havers.

by Anonymousreply 396Last Friday at 9:47 AM

Was Catherine throwing shade on Mark with the quip about the wife sleeping on the floor? Anyone who has seen the HBO series will notice that right away...

by Anonymousreply 397Last Friday at 2:04 PM

I listen to a comedy podcast and the guys were saying a fun Halloween couples costume would be Keith Rainere holding a volleyball, wearing the dorky headband and knee pads, and Allison Mack with a branding iron that has henna ink on it.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 398Last Friday at 2:22 PM

Careful, r397. If you don't agree that Bonnie welcomed that shade, and is desperately crying out to get away from Mark and that Mark wouldn't let Bonnie address the comment, instead stepping in defensively because Bonnie has no power and is under the thumb of Mark, and Catherine, in that moment is trying to save Bonnie instead of carelessly mocking a trauma they are still dealing with, you will be accused of actually being "Mark"

by Anonymousreply 399Last Friday at 2:25 PM

It seems to be a particular type of actor that falls for this.

In the opening minutes Sarah tells us that her ambition was to be a famous actress and to use her fame to do good. There is no artistic ambition there at all--just a desire to exploit her self-imagined charisma. This is not the kind of actress who does independent films or the Delacorte when her series is on hiatus. Her whole game was self-image, which left her vulnerable.

by Anonymousreply 400Last Friday at 5:58 PM

That's pretty twisted and presumptive logic, r400. But, ok.

by Anonymousreply 401Last Friday at 7:11 PM

R398 Ugh. Keith's volleyball get-up WOULD be a really good Halloween costume this year. Just one more reason to hate COVID.

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by Anonymousreply 402Last Friday at 7:51 PM

Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia should be a DL Icon.

by Anonymousreply 403Last Friday at 7:55 PM

Recently I watched 'Wild Wild Country' and 'Holy Hell', recommend both.

The gay would be actor / porn star/ hypnotist 'guru' of Holy Hell was a ballet dancer of sorts and like Volleyball Keith tortured his disciples to learn ballet and made them build him a theater and stage ballets where he would be the star. Of course he is also a sex abuser.

by Anonymousreply 404Last Friday at 7:57 PM

R404, what’s “Holy Hell”?

by Anonymousreply 405Last Friday at 8:02 PM

Reviews have all said that Seduced is better than Vow.

by Anonymousreply 406Last Friday at 8:07 PM

OMG, I just watched the first episode of Seduced. It is soo so much better done. That last moment of India looking into the camera, that look in her eyes...

I can post a link to download it, if anyone wants.

by Anonymousreply 407Last Friday at 8:12 PM

R405, a documentary about a cult called Buddhafield

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 408Last Friday at 8:23 PM

Oh man, I had forgotten that J.D. Salinger stalked Catherine Oxenberg when she was on Dynasty.

by Anonymousreply 409Yesterday at 4:20 AM

I've met Sara Bronfman twice and she's a royal bitch.

by Anonymousreply 410Yesterday at 5:22 AM

r410, The Enlightened are unshackled from society's agreed upon standards of decency!

At the end of the day, regardless of the mumbo jumbo being peddled, the attitudes of these hucksters and those who aspire to be them is always the Crowlian: do what thou wilt!

by Anonymousreply 411Yesterday at 5:38 AM

R407 yes please post the link!!

by Anonymousreply 412Yesterday at 6:13 AM

R410 Royal? I don't think so!

by Anonymousreply 413Yesterday at 7:45 AM

R410 Tell us more!

by Anonymousreply 414Yesterday at 9:51 AM

For those interested here is a phone interview with Raniere that aired on NBC Nightly News last night.

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by Anonymousreply 415Yesterday at 10:16 AM

Here is the print version if you can't watch the NBC one.

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by Anonymousreply 416Yesterday at 10:20 AM

r412, copy the code below and then paste it into the decoder at the link, it'll convert the code into the link to the file on mega which you can then either stream or download: aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWdhLm56L2ZvbGRlci9mTmx5V1Q1WiNPelV0TlZqemE4NWN6RDBQTXNyeW9n

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 417Yesterday at 1:21 PM

Fuck, take out the spaces and dashes between "i - 9" and "6 - R"

by Anonymousreply 418Yesterday at 1:22 PM
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