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HBO Max The Vow

Just started watching it last night and the old thread is almost full.

I’m 2 episodes in.

by Anonymousreply 89Yesterday at 3:06 PM

Watched all of both The Vow and Seduced. The Vow white washes a lot of the evil. Mark is such a smarmy asshole. He was Keith's second in command for 12 yrs, so he knew what was going on. When he saw the writing on the wall, he rigged it so he wouldn't get charged by turning over tons of video and audio recordings to the FBI. India should be in jail too. Her connections shielded her. Both India (along with her mother) and Mark have done everything they can through these two docs to control the narrative so they look like victims. And they 'were' victims---to a point.

One thing is clear, they are ALL shitting themselves about their collateral. They don't know who has it, where it is or how/when it will surface.

by Anonymousreply 111/11/2020

I don't think Mark has any collateral. Only the DOS women.

by Anonymousreply 211/11/2020

Any idea why Sara Bronfman wasn't charged with anything? Was she unaware of DOS, despite her sister's deep involvement? She definitely poured a lot of money into the cult.

by Anonymousreply 311/11/2020

R2, all the members, except maybe Mark, whom Keith wanted to succeed him in running the whole cult, gave blackmail material in one form or another. Mark recorded much of the damning material the male members were coerced into providing.

by Anonymousreply 411/11/2020

I’ll bet some loyal cult member has something on be leaked eventually. Based on his reaction to the dog bed incident I imagine he’s thoroughly clenched 24/7 at the thought of it.

by Anonymousreply 511/11/2020

R5, Keith certainly does and when he finally accepts he’s not getting out of his 120 year sentence, I hope he confesses all the things that’ll nail Mark to the wall.

by Anonymousreply 611/11/2020

There were two scenes in the last Seduced episode that shocked me. How happy Allison Mack was when she sold India for money to Keith. She should go to jail for a long time, wow.

And the Mexican press publishing Sarah's branding ceremony. Did they show that on tv in Mexico? Is that even legal?

by Anonymousreply 711/11/2020

I’m on the episode where Mark and Bonnie go and get their stuff out of storage. By now as a viewer I have heard endless babbling coming from Keith. It’s a mystery how this guy and people like trump are able to brainwash people with such nonsensical ramblings. My God!

by Anonymousreply 811/12/2020

Queef Raniere has a huge cock!

by Anonymousreply 911/12/2020

How was Allison Mack able to sell India? And what was up with Allison Mack's marriage to Nicki Clyne? The set of Battlestar Galactica set must have been a hoot back then.

by Anonymousreply 1011/13/2020

People think Mack married Nicki so she could stay in the country.

by Anonymousreply 1111/13/2020

Seduced says clearly that Kieth demanded that Mack marry Nicki to stay in the country because she was from Canada. That’s why I’m surprised that it hasn’t been declared illegal and Nicki been deported. Wasn’t India also the witness for the marriage, which might have legal issues for her as well right?

by Anonymousreply 1211/13/2020

When will Keith be interviewed ob camera from jail?

by Anonymousreply 1311/13/2020

R13, part of his sentence forbids him from speaking publicly about NXIVM ever again.

by Anonymousreply 1411/13/2020

Keith will become Queef

by Anonymousreply 1511/13/2020

I thought the Vow has extensive recording from before the trial they are building season 2 around?

by Anonymousreply 1611/13/2020

All I know is that they are having season 2 next year.

by Anonymousreply 1711/13/2020

I don’t find the Catherine oxen berg segments interesting at all.

by Anonymousreply 1811/13/2020

Your spelling of her name R18 is phonic. She is not "the" Catherine. She is Catherine Oxenberg. How hard is it to spell someone's name correctly R18?

by Anonymousreply 1911/13/2020

I wanna be able to call up the Windsors when I'm mad about something.

by Anonymousreply 2011/13/2020

It was a typo you stupid idiot. The “the” is because the phrase finishes with segments.

by Anonymousreply 2111/14/2020

[quote]The set of Battlestar Galactica

Nicki Clyne was fired in the third season of that show and her character met with the show's in-universe most ignominious end (she was thrown out of an airlock) after several episodes of her having a slow breakdown involving a lot of closeup shots of her makeup-free and ugly crying/screaming for entire scenes and generally becoming loathsome. Many fans at the time wondered jokingly if the showrunners hated her to do all that. The year that episode was filmed would have been 2007, the year she joined the cult, so it's possible the two were related.

by Anonymousreply 2211/15/2020

Like someone in the first thread said, The entire season of Seduced was to paint India as a victim. Finding those flash drives was her get out of jail free card. Hearing Keithos discussing the design of the brand with Allison was fantastic and horrifying at the same time.

by Anonymousreply 2311/16/2020

I don’t get the channel seduced was on so I don’t know all the details that series revealed. Maybe it will have some of that stuff on The Vow 2.

by Anonymousreply 2411/16/2020

All eps of Seduced here:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 2511/16/2020

That didn’t work on my phone but thanks anyway r25.

by Anonymousreply 2611/16/2020

r26, it'll work if you download the MEGA app

by Anonymousreply 2711/16/2020

I did tho. It says it’s download started and then nothing happens,

by Anonymousreply 2811/16/2020

r23, India was 19 when she joined, pretty young and naive. I see her more of a victim than Mark who was how old when he joined his second (!) cult?

by Anonymousreply 2911/16/2020

Yeah, I don't think Mark is much of a victim. A dumbass and a sucker, maybe, but not a true victim like teenagers getting enslaved.

by Anonymousreply 3011/17/2020

r30, Keith wanted Mark to succeed him in running the cult. He was far more than just dumb ass. He invented the men's group that trained other men how to be abusive psychos to women.

by Anonymousreply 3111/17/2020

I think Mark Vincente is a push over and he admitted he had issues around his masculinity but it’s Keith that’s a psychopath.

by Anonymousreply 3211/17/2020

R32, Mark taught the men in SOP how to be better misogynists. He was gross and evil enough that Keith saw him as a successor. He filled the home he shares with Bonnie with cameras so she felt she couldn’t make any private phone calls. He made her sleep in a dog bed on the floor for disobeying him. He abused both Catherine and Bonnie on camera in The Vow. And continues to refuse to take any responsibility for his behavior. He’s awful.

by Anonymousreply 3311/17/2020

After watching both series,I really would like to know what Keith and Nancy set out to do. Was the entire thing designed to cheat people out of money with their ESP bullshit? I noticed Nancy seemed to be free of any criminal charges regarding DOS- did she know the scope of the goings on?

by Anonymousreply 3411/17/2020

He still has devout followers and they sound and behave no differently than Manson followers.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 3511/17/2020

Keith had the women fly down to Mexico to give him a group blow job?? Okay.

by Anonymousreply 3611/17/2020

Mark is one ugly guy. Bonnie is clearly not deprogrammed.

by Anonymousreply 3711/17/2020

I would love to be a fly on the wall to hear what Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia has to say about India's new pizza-baking husband.

by Anonymousreply 3811/17/2020

I thought it was funny when Catherine had to name drop Prince Charles asking her mother to talk to him about the Dalai Lama and her mother was basically *crickets* they are second cousins and probably never speak.

by Anonymousreply 3911/18/2020

Mark? What the Bleep does he know.

by Anonymousreply 4011/18/2020

[quote]He was gross and evil enough that Keith saw him as a successor.

I don't buy the successor thing. Typically, a successor is younger than the person he is succeeding. Keith and Mark are the same damn age. What's the point of grooming a successor who is going to die or retire at the same time you are?

by Anonymousreply 4111/18/2020

Yeah I don’t recall any talk of Mark being a successor in The Vow. Maybe it came up in Seduced.

by Anonymousreply 4211/18/2020

R42, it’s in his court testimony.

by Anonymousreply 4311/18/2020

I think Mark is younger than Keith by about 15 years.

by Anonymousreply 4411/18/2020

Did anyone see the last episode of Seduced? At the end, after the victim impact statements, Mark and Bonnie come out and Mark goes right to the microphones. The look on Bonnie face...I'm not sure how to describe it. She was like a shrinking violet. As I recall Bonnie was the one questioning NXIVM before any of the others. She was the strong one wanted the leave the cult and Mark as an asshole about it. She really needs to leave him.

by Anonymousreply 4511/18/2020

Sorry for the typos and I am not going to correct them. You know what I mean and the Oh Dear poster can go fuck themselves.

by Anonymousreply 4611/18/2020

Nicki Clyne, Alison Mack’s wife is a Joe Rogan far right supporter.

by Anonymousreply 4711/18/2020

R47 Joe Rogan isn’t far right, he’s a Liberterian

by Anonymousreply 4811/18/2020

She’s a far right supporter and a Joe Rogan supporter.

by Anonymousreply 4911/18/2020

She's, also, a crazy person in a cult who dances outside a prison every day.

by Anonymousreply 5011/18/2020

Mark looked like a giant asshole coming out of that courtroom.

by Anonymousreply 5111/18/2020

I hope they find some damning evidence that sends Mark to jail.

by Anonymousreply 5211/18/2020

Does anyone know how far Kristin Kreuk and Grace Park were into the cult? I can't remember if that was mentioned in The Vow.

by Anonymousreply 5311/18/2020

r53 no one has revealed, yet, what specifically when down with Kreuk, but it's assumed that Keith perved on her and she noped out.

by Anonymousreply 5411/18/2020

How much footage to you think Mark conveniently “lost?”

by Anonymousreply 5511/18/2020

Kristin has said that she took a few courses but didn't get that far into the organization itself. She downplays it but that does seem to be more or less the case.

by Anonymousreply 5611/18/2020

r56, she was in a very long term relationship with a guy who was in it before they hooked up and may have stayed in until the very end. That's not the whole story.

by Anonymousreply 5711/18/2020

I will never get over the fact this was Mark's *second* cult. Which one will he choose next? I'm anxiously awaiting the documentary after that one ends in tears as well.

by Anonymousreply 5811/18/2020

Grace Park was involved for awhile it seems but no one ever talks about her for some reason.

by Anonymousreply 5911/19/2020

r58, and to make it worse, it's not like Ramtha's cult was benign. That shit was shut down for embezzlement and child rape. And he is still proud of the propaganda film he made for her.

Honestly, someone needs to do a fucking intervention for Bonnie.

by Anonymousreply 6011/19/2020

Is Mark the 21st Century Leni Riefenstahl?

by Anonymousreply 6111/19/2020

I’ve watched a bit of The Vow now and it’s obvious that India does not have fond memories of Vincente. I can’t gauge how she feels about Sarah yet. Maybe nothing much.

So I guess Catherine has had a rethink about Mark too now that India is out.

by Anonymousreply 6211/19/2020

Sorry I meant Seduced! I watched about 1.5 episodes of that.

by Anonymousreply 6311/19/2020

Finished Seduced. I think it really showed just how hard Catherine had to work to get India out. It showed that in the vow too, but I think you get a better sense of how desperate it truly was for her. She had to figure it out on her own. In the end, Catherine is really who brought the whole cult down.

by Anonymousreply 6411/19/2020

I agree R64, she was instrumental and seemed really sincere in her desperate desire to help her daughter. She was very smart about it.

by Anonymousreply 6511/19/2020

Yes, and Catherine was very shrewd in how she used Mark to get what she needed from him, and the other wacko cult members, to make her case. She had to suck up to them and act like they were all one big support group--equals. She'll drop them cold now that India is out, if she hasn't already.

by Anonymousreply 6611/19/2020

It does sound like despite earlier attempts to expose them the NYT article with the combined stories with Catherine throwing her daughter under the bus was what finally got the wheels of justice moving towards an actual police and FBI investigation.

by Anonymousreply 6711/20/2020

[quote] Yes, and Catherine was very shrewd in how she used Mark to get what she needed from him, and the other wacko cult members, to make her case. She had to suck up to them and act like they were all one big support group--equals. She'll drop them cold now that India is out, if she hasn't already.

I think it was more desperation than shrewdness for the most part. She was willing to take help wherever she could get it and genuinely needed emotional support too. But no question she has dropped them all without a backward glance. I think how they are barely mentioned in Seduced reflects her and India’s feelings toward them all. I don’t blame either of them of course. What a horrible mess.

by Anonymousreply 6811/20/2020

Is there a weed version of fetal alcohol syndrome? India seems [italic] off [/italic].

by Anonymousreply 6911/20/2020

I saw a video clip of India being interviewed and she was asked about The Vow. She said she didn’t participate because she wasn’t emotionally ready. She also expressed a lot of gratitude to her mother but to the x-members who blew the whistle too. So I dunno.

by Anonymousreply 7011/20/2020

My old boss had a daughter with whom I became very casual friends. We liked each other and hung out at work, but didn’t socialize. She always came off as somewhat stupid but acted really intelligent so nobody saw through her, but I always had a nagging feeling that she was an idiot deep down. She was OBSESSED with what the bleep do we know. She thought it was the most incredibly deep insightful work of philosophy ever.

by Anonymousreply 7111/20/2020

After watching the Vow, we found a copy of What the Bleep and started watching. Didn't make it past 20 minutes. ugh.

by Anonymousreply 7211/21/2020

r71 I bet she also loved The Matrix Reloaded and said "it really made me think."

by Anonymousreply 7311/21/2020

Bill Maher last night made specific parallels between NXIVM and the Trumpies in his New Rules.

by Anonymousreply 7411/21/2020

So, has there been an announcement for a season two of Seduced? It seems to have been more favorably regarded and at this point should be very cheaply to produce since much of the investigation is done. India could follow up with stories of other woman on her level or in her pod or what ever it was called. I would love to hear from her recruits what they were experiencing and it would go far to her being even more transparent about her power in the cult. I would also like to here from Crazy Niki, and since India lived with her maybe they can get her on tape as a way for her to tell her story (dig her grave). And at four episodes that’s not much to fill.

by Anonymousreply 7511/21/2020

I had never heard of “What the Bleep” before this series even though they talk about it in the first episode like it’s one of the best documentaries of all time. Was it very popular when it came out?

by Anonymousreply 7611/21/2020

I’ve never heard of it either, but I believe it was the highest grossing of all time.

I’m going to get flamed but even after watching Seduced I don’t have an issue with Mark. If the women can be victims so can the men. He was very much besotted with Keith and believed so much in what they were doing.

The woman I have an issue with is that woman whose last name is Keefe. Can’t remember her first name. She was the one who had Keith’s baby and then left the cult soon after.

Listening to a podcast with Toni Natalie she says that after Keefe ran away she called her up out of the blue and apologized for participating in the harassment of Toni and for poisoning her dog. Toni had no idea that her dog had died from being poisoned. He just got sick overnight and the vet couldn’t figure out what was wrong.

I think if someone participates in targeted harassment to that level they should face charges.

by Anonymousreply 7711/21/2020

r76, with new age liberals. My mom thought it was really cool. I kept asking questions about how any of what was posited in the film could be true and then found out none of it was.

by Anonymousreply 7811/21/2020

I heard of What The Bleep when it came out. Those who became The Secret brigade loved it.

Keith saw it and recognised a kindred spirit. Within 2 years Mark was embroiled in NXIVM.

by Anonymousreply 7911/21/2020

R73, she wasn’t quite that bad but was really overconfident in her intellectual abilities.

by Anonymousreply 8011/21/2020

What the Bleep was very popular. My boss had a party so that she could watch it with her employees.

But most people who saw it rolled their eyes at it. But they still made it an unexpectedly high-grossing film.

by Anonymousreply 8111/21/2020

I had heard of What the BLEEP but the new age new think vibe I caught from the reviews really turned me off, and the cutesie-poo title of the movie just put the nail in the coffin. Not going to happen.

Naturally Mark is going to position himself as just another victim of Keith’s manipulation, and is being somewhat disingenuous. People in these replies are picking up on that and pushing back on it, but IMO they’re going too far - I don’t recall hearing or reading that Keith had any plans whatsoever for *any* replacement. He’s a pathological narcissist and cares about nothing other than himself. He couldn’t have cared less about what happened after he was gone. It was all set up for him anyway.

Similarly I don’t think Mark would have set up the SOP sessions, designed to degrade women under the pretense of “enlightening them about men’s experiences.” That sick sort of sadism — the wanton humiliation of women — is trademark Keith.

People asked what Keith and Nancy had in mind. I think there’s some confusion resulting from DOS. Once the NXIVM scheme was a success, Keith was able to dive deep into his own sociopathic fantasies, but NXIVM wasn’t about DOS. It was a variation of multi level marketing, a sort of Amway for professional development seminars. Much of the money from these seminars was stove piped up to the founders, because everyone at the base of the pyramid was kicking money upward. Meanwhile, people like Bonnie are literally working themselves to death without seeing any real profit.

The cult-like programming was inflicted on people to make them better profit-zombies for the people at the tip of the pyramid. Keith eventually was able to harness this thirst for profit, combined with blind obedience, to set up his sadism cult (which seems like a better term than sex cult because he seems to have been flaccid half the time). His manipulation of Allison Mack shows this well. She was desperate for money and desperate to please Keith, and he knew this and used it to get India. How pleased he must have been to make India squirm. This bridge and tunnel schlub now living in snowy flyover upstate, eating the pussy of a descendent of euro trash royalty.

by Anonymousreply 82Last Wednesday at 7:12 AM

Other random thoughts.

I loved when Catherine was teasing Mark about the dog bed and Mark had a total MARY meltdown, the sort that he no doubt used to manipulate his poor long suffering mother, but Catherine the snobby aristo was having none of it! That smirk when he was shrieking about his pain made me adore the nasty old broad.

Bonnie and Mark conveniently live in Portugal now. How odd they are so far from Hollywood, now that the doc has been such a success. What sort of extradition treaty does Portugal have with the USA?

by Anonymousreply 83Last Wednesday at 7:20 AM

An anonymous source - ie Bonnie Piesse - wrote a defence of how Mark Vicente was portrayed in Seduced to the the Frank Report.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 84Last Wednesday at 1:05 PM

I am currently about half way through Toni Nathalie’s book about her life with Keith and after. It’s only so so. I also read Sarah Edmonson’s book about the same thing and her book was only so so too.

by Anonymousreply 85Last Saturday at 1:04 PM

Mark was the head of the Society of Protectors for a long time. He knew and agreed with EVERYTHING that was happening.

by Anonymousreply 86Yesterday at 1:17 AM

But wouldn’t he as a brainwashed member of a cult?

by Anonymousreply 87Yesterday at 5:04 AM

He was culpable. The only reason he wasn't charged is because he handed over a ton of evidence.

by Anonymousreply 88Yesterday at 3:03 PM

I'm only 4 episodes in, but I really like this.

I'm getting HBO MAX free for the Thanksgiving weekend and it looks like I'll have to subscribe to finish it.

by Anonymousreply 89Yesterday at 3:06 PM
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