The Zodiac Killer

Has to be dead by now.

Wasn't it Arthur Leigh Allen?

There was a rumor that it was the gay porn actor Scorpio.

This case still freaks me out.

Some say it was a Hollywood actor.

It was Ted Cruz. Duh!

They cracked the EAR/ONS case with familial DNA. I guess there must not be any leftover DNA samples from the Zodiac.

They have retrieved DNA from one of the stamps on the Zodiac letters. It was too degraded to make a match.

It was Obama.

He got away with murder. Scary, indeed.

R2, that theory has been discredited. Allen was pedophile (he was convicted of molesting a 12 year old boy), not a serial killer of adult couples.

He’s a MAGAT White supremacist. Look at him!

There was a rumor that the guy worked for the Gemini Men porn site.

[quote] Has to be dead by now.

I'm not dead ... I mean, I'm sure you're right.

R11, that makes sense. I guess I got suckered into that theory by Robert Graysmith's book and the subsequent film.

Was that Rick Marshall suspect -- the one who worked at a movie theater -- another dead end?

Isn't it Mitt Romney?

There was a rumor that the Zodiac Killer died from cancer.

David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film about the case and Arthur Allen Leigh that leaves the viewer to make his own decisions. There's direct and circumstantial evidence there and Leigh was identified by two surviving victims. It's a rabbit hole.

David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film about the case and Arthur Allen Leigh that leaves the viewer to make his own decisions. There's direct and circumstantial evidence there and Leigh was identified by two surviving victims. It's a rabbit hole.

He was Jim Nabors, TV's "Gomer Pyle"

Is this even considered an active case anymore?

Zodiac definitely builds the case against Leigh.

Walter Mercado kept trying to tell you and you just wouldn't listen. Then he died.

So many suspects were eliminated by that quack who did handwriting analysis.

R19, I'm not really the biggest true crime aficionado, but after watching the Fincher film years ago, I fell down a bit of a rabbit-hole and found an in-depth Zodiac site with lots of information about the case. The webmaster makes a case for Rick Marshall, and in fact, Mr. Marshall personally e-mailed him! Freaky stuff.

A cold case if there ever was one.

That sketch is the stuff of nightmares, OP. Can you imagine seeing THAT coming your way while you're on a picnic?

R27, I first saw that drawing on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries. One of the scariest cases, IMO. So brazen and never caught.

It's Mitt Romney. Seriously. That Ted Cruz stuff was put out by Mitt's camp to deflect the fact that Mitt is fucking Zodiac Killer

r17 if no one knows who he is how do they know what he died from?

They found the Golden State Killer after all those years, so who knows, maybe they'll crack this case too

[quote] They have retrieved DNA from one of the stamps on the Zodiac letters. It was too degraded to make a match.

Not quite. It’s only a partial sample. It’s still contains viable genetic info but it will take more than just a DNA match to identify him. Corroborating info like residential records, employment history, that kind of stuff.

The big question is why did he suddenly stop?

R17, I heard it was either scorpions or a goat that got him.

r18, Graysmith was guilty of fudging a lot of the "evidence" against Arthur Leigh Allen. The case against him is really thin.

Didn't some lady come forward several years ago stating that she was almost certain the Zodiac killer was her own father? IIRC it was after he had died.

His name was Neil Murray

Here is the link to what I was referring to.

Steve Hodel also claimed his dad was Zodiac.

Those claims were just as made up as the "My dad killed the Black Dahlia" idiots

Some people thought Bruce Davis of the Manson family was the Zodiac, but I think that has been ruled out.

I don’t know much about it, is there a good documentary to watch to catch up before diving into the thread?

This Is the Zodiac Speaking is a documentary that was included on the DVD extras with the Fincher film. It features interviews with investigators and witnesses many of whom have since passed away.

Regarding the Zodiac costume I feel like he was playing the role of a comic book villian. In his letters he makes references to comic books and pulp fiction novels. In that case it seems like he would be very young, maybe early 20s, and could still be alive today.

[quote] The big question is why did he suddenly stop?

He dropped dead from a Charley Horse.

Is this the one Patton Oswald’s wife caught?

R46, no. And she never caught anyone or was even close -- she was a latecomer to the EAR/ONS/Golden State Killer case. But she does deserve credit for renaming him the Golden State Killer and bringing more attention to the case.

The movie Zodiac with Jake Gyllenhaul and Robert Downey, Jr. scared the hell out of me. I love that movie but still can’t watch it alone at night.

R33 he might’ve been incarcerated on something else, died or continued his killing without the fanfare. If he was young enough in the late 60s, he could very well be alive today. If you think about the many people that go missing, it’s very disturbing. Plus he bragged in one of his letters he could make the killings look accidental.

R38, that woman also claimed to be the illegitimate daughter of JFK.. These people are usually full of delusions. Hodel and the Black Dahlia still fascinates me along with that LA house where it may have happened. Spooky.

R25, thanks for that link. I used to read at that site but I lost the link - those people can be very crazy, not just obsessive but craaazy. Still the research is fun - you know, as much as serials killers are fun.

Where was the president during the late 60s?

R51, Bone Spurs is far too stupid to have pulled off anything like communicating via complex ciphers.

The History Channel did a series last year called The Hunt for the Zodiac Killer. I forgot who the said the killer was, but it was not Arthur Leigh Allen. The series was very thorough and scientific. You can watch it on Youtube.

I seriously doubt any of the name "suspects" did it. If he's ever caught - I think it will be someone who was never considered a suspect (like The Golden State killer)

Or it was someone who was eliminated early on due to the quackery science of handwriting analysis.

Hold me, David, I’m scared.

[Quote] David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film

It's a GREAT film. It should have been awarded as such.

[quote]Steve Hodel also claimed his dad was Zodiac.

I honestly don't even believe that George Hodel killed Elizabeth Short at this point. Steve Hodel needs to stop. He's really ruining any credibility he may or may not have had with these claims.

It's Mitt Romney. Read the linked thread, look at the police sketch, look at one of the only samples of Mitt's writing available try to read one of those Zodiac letters not in his voice. Look up the Mormon references the Zodiac used.

R59 The hair on back of my neck just stood up, I’m so creeped out.

The scariest detail from the case is that the Zodiac seemed to have called some of his victims' family members and left 'breathing' phone calls. What a freak!

Hillary wasn't ruled.

It was Jackie Hoffman

The original Unsolved Mysteries case about the Zodiac -- scared me as a kid when it first aired!

Do we have a Jackie Hoffman Troll now, on top of everything?

[quote]The movie Zodiac with Jake Gyllenhaul and Robert Downey, Jr. scared the hell out of me. I love that movie but still can’t watch it alone at night.

The scene were Gyllenhaal visits the old house in the middle of nothing at night and hears someone moving in the house while his host claims there's no one else there was truly terrifying.

R66, the Lake Berryessa scene scared me most.

That scene was filmed exactly where the attack happened.

Okay, you can tie us up- but please don't hurt us!

I think it probably was Arthur Leigh Allen, but we’ll never know for sure. If it wasn’t him, the culprit is most likely dead. The murders were over 50 years ago, and the Zodiac was estimated to be 30-35 years old at the time.

[quote] the Lake Berryessa scene scared me most.

I could barely watch that scene. It wasn't until I saw the DVD extras which included "the making of" that scene that I was able to view it objectively and that took the fear away.

The two were both stabbed in the back while they were lying prone on the ground but because the girl was so much lighter he was able to pick her up and also stab her in the front. That was just so sad to me. She died the next day in the hospital. They really survived quite a while considering how long it took to get help. The guy became a lawyer.

Thanks to those who posted links to the documentaries.

R65 First time I brought her up—probably because I’m watching The Apolitician.

Would you rather Ibsuggested Mary Testa?

Zodiac (2007) is one of the greatest movies ever made. It’s probably the scariest movie I’ve seen as an adult.

What did Graysmith fudge about the case against ALA? I don’t doubt it, I’m just unclear on the details. The coincidences are pretty nuts.

The guy that the zodiac killer dot com website is convinced did it was positively ID’d by voice by the police dispatcher who took the July 4th call, but who knows how accurate such an identification is.

The documentaries included with the Blu ray—and there are 2 of them, one that has an overview of the case and is nearly 2 hours long, and one that focuses just on ALA, about an hour long—are as terrifying as the movie itself. I highly recommend the Blu ray for those documentaries alone!

I haven’t looked into Mitt Romney as a suspect, but I wonder what a serious criminal profiler would say about him.

R1, he certainly doesn’t have to be dead by now. Not everyone who was in the mid to late 20s in the late 60s is dead. It’s not like the murders occurred in the 40s.

Please buy a Blu ray player. They’re like $30. Your TV is HDTV, if not UHDTV (which is actually standard now), there’s no reason your video disc playback machine should be limited to a 20-year-old, non-HD format. The Zodiac Blu ray is very cheap (like $14.99 when it was brand new in ~2008) and is worth every damn penny.

Behold! The horror that is the Zodiac Killer :

What became of Bruce McArthur, the Toronto gay serial killer? I can't find any updates in a Google search.

I feel really jaded and grim saying this, but I’ve never found the Zodiac Murders to be terribly interesting.

He only killed a few people....then he disappeared.

Didn't the teenage survivor from the first attack (in the car) ID Arthur Leigh Allen from photographs?

Yes, R78.

I thought I remembered Jimmi Simpson from the Fincher movie -- it was the last scene, I think. Fincher would later cast him in House of Cards.

The Zodiac Killer was Mary Wickes. Everybody knows that.

That witness suffers from drug addiction and mental illness. He appears in the Fincher documentaries and it's clear his brain is fried.

Yes, he was clearly suffering from Floating Arm Syndrome at the time of that documentary’s shooting.

David Fincher makes scrupulously beautiful films.

I have a great deal of respect for him.

Two Zodiac survivors, Mike Mageau and Bryan Hartnell, identified Arthur Leigh Allen as their attacker.

One of the main suspects, Rick Marshall, is interviewed here. I had no idea they had videotape of him speaking. He's the guy in the film who takes Graysmith down to his basement, btw.

Bryan Hartnell never saw Zodiac's face.

[quote] [R25], thanks for that link. I used to read at that site but I lost the link - those people can be very crazy, not just obsessive but craaazy.

R50, agreed. I think when you're e-mailing back and forth with the potential Zodiac, that might be taking it a tad bit too far...

Walt Disney told us with his last written words. Kurt Russell. Kurt started very young and Walt knew it. The first clue? He had a hit list that started with all the former Mouseketeers. That boyish grin, the blue eyes and all-american look hid the serial killer inside. He later stated grooming Scott Baio. But Scott was too busy screwing Erin Moran and Willie Aames to be of any use. He thought about Adam Rich but Kurt thought he was a 30 year midget. He even about OJ, but who would have thought that OJ could kill anybody?

If Bryan Hartnell had died we wouldn't know about the Zodiac costume.

[quote]He only killed a few people

Oh, fuck you.

None of you even watched the 5-part series that the History Channel did on the Zodiac killer. The actually broke the codes in his letters. They did an exhaustive search and the person they named as the killer is not Arthur Leigh Allen. Why didn't you watch it? I highly recommend it.

All 5 episodes are on Youtube. I linked the first episode. Watch all 5 and then tell me what you think.

R92, thanks. I will watch this weekend!

Didn't they think the unabomber was the Zodiac at some point?

There's a partial DNA profile of the Zodiac taken from stamps and envelopes, and Allen unfortunately didn't match.

There's a photo of victim Darlene Ferrin with an unknown man that many think may be the Zodiac:

The man in that photo is Jim Crabtree who was Darlene's ex-husband.

Isn't that DB Cooper?

That's what I get for reading Wikipedia about this, R97.

R96, I'm guessing a lot men wore those thick coke bottle glasses back in the late '60s.

I watched that series when it was new, R92. I didn’t like the “reality TV” approach it took to documenting their investigation, if I remember correctly. Curiously I don’t remember the suspect they zeroed in on.

That sketch looks like my dad circa 1969 but I'm sure he's not the Zodiac.

I mean... are you SURE sure?

I'm sure we would have noticed if he left us in Missouri and moved to the Bay area.

Did Jake and Mark both play there characters as if they were on the spectrum? Were they or was that some acting choice they made?

Aren't there something like 100 serial killers in the US right now? I'm more interested in law enforcement catching them.

Gyllenhaal in "Zodiac": 10 times more chemistry with Robert Downey Jr. than with his love interest Chloe Sevigny

R106, with cellphones and GPS tracking technology, their jobs just became that much harder...

R105, I loved the movie and Fincher is brilliant, but everything I read about the experience of working with Fincher indicated that unlike many directors, Fincher doesn't allow his actors much, if any freedom to build and interpret their characters. He was specific in the extreme, down to the smallest detail, and would shoot like 70 takes. No exaggeration.

I thought Mark Ruffalo, Robert Downey, Jr. and Jake did a great job. The movie worked. It was effective. Fincher wanted to capture the terror that gripped the city. And you're right who ever said he only killed a few people. When you measure the sensation he caused with the actual crimes committed, he was no John Wayne Gacy.

R109, I don't scare easily -- especially not from movies -- but I saw Zodiac on DVD in a remote cabin rental at night and it spooked me the rest of the night, lol.

Good, R110. I think that's exactly what Fincher was going for.

It was very creepy when they were in the basement looking at the old posters and Jake said that they thought Zodiac had drawn them. Projectionist guy says HE drew them. GAH.

And then the front door is locked with a key. GAH.

i might have to rewatch this tonight. Robert Downey Jr is hilarious.

[quote] There's a partial DNA profile of the Zodiac taken from stamps and envelopes, and Allen unfortunately didn't match.

There is no way of knowing whose DNA that is. It could belong to literally anyone who has ever touched the stamps/envelope. So, no, we don’t have a DNA profile of the Zodiac, partial or otherwise.

Bryan Hartnell said that the Lake Berryessa stabbing scene in Fincher’s Zodiac was so accurate that he found it difficult to watch.

^Bryan Hartnell seemed able to have moved on and become very well-adjusted and lived a normal life after such a brutal attack. Contrast that with poor Mike Mageau, who I don't think ever recovered.

R94, I believe they ruled out Ted Kaczynski (sp.?).

I bet he is none of the main suspects. Probably just some nobody who lived a quiet life after the crimes and then died.

If it’s not Allen, I think he’s somebody no one’s ever heard of and he probably does not long after the last confirmed letter (which was in 1974).

does= died

Why assume he’s dead, though?

It was Trump

r123, wow, that's such a clever response

They used saliva found on the stamp, R115. There's not much chance it was someone else's saliva on the back of the stamp that was still adhered to the envelope until police removed it.

There’s the theory that the killer had an accomplice, that one did the killings and the other wrote and mailed the letters. There’s also some discrepancy between the sketches of the suspect that fueled that theory.

I really like Arthur Leigh Allen as a suspect, so I’m also open to the theory that he could have been the killer but had an accomplice, but I also acknowledge that he was a pedo and the killings don’t fit that profile.

Yes he’ll be uncovered in exactly four years and three months, Rose.

[quote]R109 ...everything I read about the experience of working with Fincher indicated that unlike many directors, Fincher doesn't allow his actors much, if any, freedom to build and interpret their characters. He was specific in the extreme, down to the smallest detail, and would shoot like 70 takes.

And yet, I have never seen an actor give less than a very good performance in any of his films. Do we think Goop would have been better in SE7EN if left to her own devices?

The Variety (?) review for ZODIAC said it was “perfectly cast, down to the smallest role.”

So who’s to say there’s anything wrong with David Fincher’s technique?

I was very impressed with whoever played Arthur Leigh Allen in the film.

I think it would be someone who died within a few years of the last deaths. I don’t see how a serial killer, who enjoyed taunting the police and the media, would just stop. Would you suddenly gain a conscience, move elsewhere, and live quietly for decades?

I like the theory that the man who lived under the name Joseph Newton Chandler was the Zodiac. 0

Didn't the Golden State Killer just stop, though?

It was G. She stopped because she finally got a movie contract.

R132, yes. 1986 was his last murder, I believe, and then he just stopped. A lot of people believed he had either been imprisoned or died. Turns out he was leading a normal life as a family man!

R130 I agree with what you said in that I wonder if defining him as a serial killer is the problem. Maybe that label just doesn’t fit who he is and why he killed. I did a deep dive over this, but far from all details. One thing is don’t most serial killers have a pathological need for trophies as a way to acknowledge and commemorate their killings? Other than the taxi driver’s shirt cuttings, which he did to authenticate who he was, did he take items from the others?

Is there such thing as a “joy” killer, or with the idea of The Most Dangerous Game, a “game” killer, who does it for the sport of it? I could see if the first woman, the waitress, was known to the killer and it was more of a revenge murder, he might have found that exhilarating and then began to ritualize the next time with the couple by the lake. The cipher and letters to the press added yet another “game” element to it. They really believe who ever it was had be ex military right? Maybe it’s just an extension of strategic ops training maneuvers to him rather than serial killing? Just some thoughts from my limited recent introduction to these murders.

R129 If I’m not mistaken doesn’t he also play one of the serial killers on the Groff FBI profiling streaming show? Can you imagine the actor’s mother hearing “Your son has the face of a serial killer” all the time.

The actor is John Carroll Lynch. He also played Twisty the Clown on AHS.

There are some real odd ducks around this case. If you delve even half-heartedly into the online forums, you will undoubtedly come across this woman called Sandy, who seems to believe the Zodiac, or people associated with him, have been stalking and threatening to kill her since the late 60's. The weirdest part about it is while a lot of people dismiss her, a lot of people also take her seriously too, for whatever reason. For the past 20 years at least that I'm aware of she has been promising to show proof of all the evidence she has of this story (including her claim that the Zodiac killer left the hood worn at the Lake Berryessa murders in her car), but strangely she still hasn't come forward with all this stuff yet...

Darlene Ferrin might not have been his first kill. The 1963 murders of Linda Edwards and Robert Domingos is very similiar to the Berryessa attack.

^ yes, from what I understand, there is evidence those two got loose from their ropes and ran away, or tried to? And so there is some thought that this is why he was so careful when tying Brian and Cecilia at Lake Berryessa.

r108 there's an old military saying, "If the enemy's in range, so are you". They've adapted.

A lot are around organized crime, particularly human trafficking.

[quote]Darlene Ferrin might not have been his first kill.

Might? MIGHT?!?

[quote]They used saliva found on the stamp, [R115].

This is the only place I’ve read that they used saliva. Everything else I’ve read says it was DNA from the front of the stamp.

I’ve also read that initially they attempted to use DNA from one of the (many) hoax letters. Maybe that’s where they found the saliva.

Whoever he was, he had a keen sense of high fashion!

The History channel series definitively named the identity of the Zodiac Killer, but some of you don't want to know the answer. I guess it's more fun to speculate, and wonder if he's still out there, then it is to know the killer's true identity.

I don't know why other people are fascinated by this case, unless it's the attraction of an unsolved mystery, but I grew up in the Bay Area during the Zodiac's era. I was eight years old when he first hit the headline, and 14 when he officially ended his famewhoring campaign.

It was a part of the background of life, knowing that a notorious serial killer was out there, picking off strays and cancelling Halloween when I was in grade school, because he'd threatened to kill some random child. Which didn't stop the older kids from glamorizing hitchhiking and running away, I really had no idea what a weird time I lived in. Well, the weird times are back now, and I was too young to be part of the fun then, and I'm too old now.

R145 I tried watching those episodes, but kept falling asleep. There was too much filler or repeating information and building to dramatic effect like tabloid news. There may have been about 20 minutes of original content in each episode and I wasn’t going to sit through them and try and parse it out. But if you want to share the conclusion with us that would be wonderful instead of trying to goad us into watching it.

One book I read, don't remember which, said that he quit killing after he was almost caught by the police after killing the grad student who was working as a taxi driver.

Usually, when a high profile case isn't solved for any length of time, it's either a cop or someone well-off (or they have a connection to the case).

Whoever went into that rowhouse in Paul Stine's murder is probably the killer.

In the book or the film, didn't they allude that Darlene Ferrin knew her killer beforehand?

r150 yes but I'd take that book & author with a grain of salt.

Mike Mageau said that he thought Darlene recognized the car that pulled up behind them. He asked her who it was and she said “Don’t worry about it.” In some versions of the story he told, she said his name was Richard. Mageau is not a terribly reliable witness. The shooting messed him up mentally and he has struggled with drug addiction for decades.

One piece of circumstantial evidence against Allen is that he lived within walking distance of the IHOP where Darlene Ferrin worked and may have known her in passing.

Between the Zodiac, Manson family, and other killers of that time, California seemed to have some scary characters walking around.

R151, is there a better book about the Zodiac Killer out there? I'm only familiar with Graysmith's work.

No, there really isn’t. There isn’t much that Graysmith got wrong. He absolutely believes that Allen was the Zodiac, so it’s definitely not unbiased in that regard. But his research was invaluable.

"Usually, when a high profile case isn't solved for any length of time, it's either a cop or someone well-off (or they have a connection to the case)."

That's not true at all. There are a lot of high profile cases that were solved decades after the fact due to forensic genealogy and the perp hardly ever turns out to be a cop (I can think of only one instance where that happened - the Golden State Killer) . They never seem to be "well-off" either - the vast majority are poor.

The Hunt For the Zodiac Killer show mentioned upthread named a guy called Ross Sullivan as the Zodiac, but that doesn't mean he did it. The evidence against him in shaky. He lived in Santa Cruz, not anywhere close to any of the murders.

Another possible Zodiac victim was Cheri Jo Bates, a college student in Riverside, CA, who was murdered in 1966.

Also John and Joyce Swindle, a honeymooning couple who were killed by a sniper.

I admit to never being familiar with Donovan's "Hurdy Gurdy Man" before the Zodiac film. Now, I can't listen to it without thinking of the case..

[quote]This is the only place I’ve read that they used saliva.

Not sure what you mean by "this." The link was to SFGate but other sites like The Atlantic, The Advocate and Sacramento Bee have said the same thing about the back of the stamp. They also mention envelope seals along with the back of the stamp.

It's possible that the samples were contaminated but with multiple samples we'd surely know that by now; each sample would provide a different profile, meaning some (or all) were contaminated and they wouldn't be able to tell which (if any) had the correct DNA.

Interesting, R159 -- a wristwatch that probably had paint splatter was missing from the Swindle murder scene, and a Timex watch with paint spatter on it was found at the scene of Cheri Jo Bates' murder.

Neither murder is officially a Zodiac murder, but many believe they are.

The murders stopped when Mitt moved to Boston. Don't forget he had a documented history of dressing as a cop and pulling people over.

I thought that the DNA from the back of the stamp was identified as coming from a woman.

That song gives me chills R160. Like you, I can't not think of the movie when I hear it. I watched the movie again recently, and it surprises me it didn't do as well, because it really is excellent in my opinion. My favourite scene is probably the Kathleen Johns chapter.

I have the original book by Graysmith (which we have to admit is full of supposition and rumour), and the list in there of potential Zodiac cases is astronomical. But I personally believe he did stop after Paul Stine, and lived off his notoriety for awhile after, without killing. Being infamous seemed more enjoyable to him than the murders. That letter where he said something like: "I will now change my method of collecting slaves" I think is a pretty obvious clue that he was intending to just claim whatever he could as one of his crimes to keep instilling fear in the community without having to do anything.

There were a lot of freaky murders and disappearances around that time in California. One of the online investigators who had a website where he claimed Zodiac was likely to be Bruce Davis had a huge list of disappearances of young women who were either hitchhiking or had broken down cars and were seen with a young man approaching them.

You know ever since society go more mobile after WW2, there have been dozens of "invisible" people roaming around our cities and towns. No one pays much attention and they tend to blend into the woodwork, but they're out here and they can be killers and no one will ever catch them. They're like footprints on a sandy beach. The waves wash all traces of them away. And they're predators, looking for other invisible people most of the time, but not always. Look at that Golden State killer or who ever they call him. He was doing his dirt for decades. After watching Mindhunters on Netflix, I can't help wondering how many are out here.

Graysmith got too caught up. Too absorbed. because at a certain point, you develop a theory, and then either consciously or unconsciously you start gathering or looking for evidence that supports your theory. But I did watch the movie again two nights ago. And yes Leigh Allen seemed like the best possible suspect. I had no idea he lived in his mother's basement right across from the pancake house where that one girl worked.

That murder by the lake , when the zodiak was dressed like an idiot , with that zodiak sign on the chest was ridicolous. That was not made by Zodiak, no chance.

"I thought that the DNA from the back of the stamp was identified as coming from a woman."

Nope

[quote]r168 that zodiak sign on the chest was ridicolous. That was not made by Zodiak, no chance.

Look, not everyone's Project Runway material, okay?

Bryan Hartnell said that the symbol on the hood was sewn on by someone who really knew what they were doing. It wasn’t a slapdash job.

[quote] I had no idea he lived in his mother's basement

I was surprised by the mention of suspects' basements in this case. Basements in California are rare.

That Zodiac site I linked to upthread -- they seem very keen on a man named Richard Gaikowski being the Zodiac. Like that's their number one suspect.

"Bryan Hartnell said that the symbol on the hood was sewn on by someone who really knew what they were doing."

Wasn't he attacked in the dark?

The attack happened at 6:15 PM so it was still broad daylight. Here's an interview with Bryan while he was recovering.

What in the hell, R172, that's incredible. The cipher solving to GYKE AUSE KEY is unbelievable.

How many hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions has been spent on this case by law officials and others over the years without any resolution? It reminds me of the Madeline McCann case is the amount and depth of time, money and resources spent with out an outcome. It seems like it’s grown into a whole mini industry in and of itself. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there are Zodiac tours in the Bay Area one could take.

That lawyer needs to reveal the identity of the man who entered his office after hours.

r171 that & the Mikado references in the notes always struck me as incongruous as fuck for this type of case (especially since there was a military connection floated at the same time.)

Or what about the Riverside desk poem. I believe he wrote it and went to that school. I doubt it was a huge school. Couldn’t they have gotten a list of all the male registered students and cross referenced them?

Also, did anyone follow-up and check out the house the man walked into after Paul Stine’s murder? I don’t recall.

His "quotations" from The Mikado were very inexact and riddled with errors.

^ And curiously, one of his misquotations was a line that was changed for Groucho Marx, who starred in a 1960 television version.

R179 I believe the police may have had their eye on someone for the murder of Cheri Jo Bates in Riverside but were unable to get enough evidence, especially after that case became connected with the Zodiac. From what I understand, they don't really think the two are connected.

After Paul Stine's murder, the Zodiac didn't walk into a house, but into the Presidio. A couple of police officers passed him, or who is believed to have been him, on their way to the crime scene, but either they didn't stop him but kept driving because they had been told the suspect was a black man (the police version), or they did stop him and let him go (Zodiac's version in one of his letters).

r182 I remembered it as a rowhouse, the Presidio makes more sense.

r181 I still found it odd. It's almost like he was taunting the police with a clue. I think it would have significance regardless because it's not your typical serial killer reference. The erudite, Silence of the Lambs type is extremely rare.

Didn't the Stine killing happen in front of a rowhouse and was witnessed by two or three children playing in a front room who witnessed it?

^Yes that's right.

R53, thank you for that link. I'd never heard of Ross Sullivan as a suspect before, and he sounds like a good one. I've only made it up to episode two so far.

I went to college in Riverside in the '00s (not Riverside Community College ), so I was only a couple of miles away from where Zodiac targeted Cheri Jo Bates. I've been on that campus before and that library.

The History channel program was the first one to tie the Cheri Jo Bates murder to the Zodiac.

r187, no, it wasn't

The witnesses were in the attic windows of this house, r184. Paul Stone’s cab would have been across the street from the car in the photo, facing in the opposite direction

Stine*

I watched that full History Channel series. It definitely does not make any conclusions about who the killer was, so I don’t know why the one DLer upthread is saying we could just watch the series and find out (?).

But it sure ends on a cliffhanger. They’re going to cross-test the DNA from the gloves found inside Stone’s cab with the blood on Cheri Jo Bates’ pants. Well, what’s taking so long?

I have to say, one of the coolest things about that series and the This Is The Zodiac Speaking documentary is how they actually show the bloody, ripped clothing worn by the victims. Very haunting. Especially after only reading about the crimes, seeing dramatizations. Seeing artifacts from the real thing—that’s powerful (to a dork like me).

Re: the Presidio, the Zodiac said he ducked into the Presidio and escaped that way, but there was also a man the patrol car drove past who did go up to the doorway of a house. It’s mentioned in the aforementioned Zodiac Speaking documentary.

STINE’s* cab! Jesus Christ.

I might as well spoil myself with that History Channel documentary -- do they rule out Ross Sullivan?

Thanks R191, I had missed the story that he had been seen walking up to a house. Interesting! You're right, it was Zodiac himself who said he slipped into the Presidio. Whatever happened that night he must've been so close to being caught, could this have scared him for awhile? Do killers get scared enough sometimes to stop completely? Zodiac at least could've lived off notoriety for the next few years alone, which may have fed whatever needs he had.

^by him being seen, I meant a man had been seen, of course, not necessarily the Zodiac but someone who could've been.

Is the History Channel show available on Hulu or Netlfix?

it's on Youtube for free in 5 parts, R197

[quote]I might as well spoil myself with that History Channel documentary -- do they rule out Ross Sullivan?

No, they rule out Arthur Leigh Allen. They think the killer is Ross Sullivan.

R199, thanks. I'm still going to watch the whole series.

Arthur Leigh Allen had always been my guess for the Zodiac, but now I'm curious about this Ross Sullivan fellow.

You should be equally curious about Richard Gaikowski, R200.

The history channel series makes a compelling case against both Ross Sullivan and Lawrence Kane, until you do additional research and find out how much information was not presented, including Sullivan's alibis for multiple Zodiac killings. He may have killed the woman in Riverside but that doesn't make him Zodiac. Richard Gaikowski is the best suspect in my opinion.

R202, Ross obviously killed the woman in Riverside. The facts surrounding that murder were exactly like the Zodiac's other killings in Northern California, where Ross had moved a couple months before those murders took place.

Ross Sullivan lived in Santa Cruz. He didn't have an ties to San Francisco or Vallejo

Sullivan was 6'2 300lbs at the time of his death from an obesity related heart attack, far larger than he was described by any Z witness or survivor. The photo used in that documentary was from Sullivan's younger years. He has ties to Albany, but so does Larry Kane and Richard Gaikowski. The Sullivan handwriting comparison is compelling as is some of the evidence in the documentary, I'll admit. Sadly, I think we'll never know the truth.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kane was definitely responsible for Donna Lass' disappearance. Other than that, I'm not sure.

R170 Haha, that is not the point. He almost screamed " I am the Zodiac!!!" by this outfit.

The Zodiac more than likely killed hitchhikers on the highways between SF and LA. His "score" he added to the signature of his comms with police and press is theorized to be representative of many disappearances around that time.

Gaikowsky is the Zodiac killer. His name is in the cipher. He is said to have known Bates and Ferrin, even following Ferrin to Albany when she briefly moved there. Multiple people involved with the case agree it's him.

"Said to have known".....

Translation: there's no evidence he knew them

I think there are still serial killers out there, but they know they can't get away with the kind of famewhoring that the Zodiac and BTK killers pulled. Forensics are better, DNA can be traced, cybertracking can be done if they try to taunt the police, etc.

So I think they've gone underground, while the mass shooters get all the press. If a killer targets the sort of people who aren't missed, or makes sure the bodies are never found, and spreads things around so there aren't multiple killings in the same jurisdiction or state... Nobody will ever put the pieces together.

I think there are still serial killers out there, but they know they can't get away with the kind of famewhoring that the Zodiac and BTK killers pulled. Forensics are better, DNA can be traced, cybertracking can be done if they try to taunt the police, etc.

So I think they've gone underground, while the mass shooters get all the press. If a killer targets the sort of people who aren't missed, or makes sure the bodies are never found, and spreads things around so there aren't multiple killings in the same jurisdiction or state... Nobody will ever put the pieces together.

I always thought officer Richard Hoffman (rh) was creepy.

And the conflicting memories of the two officers on the night of Paul Stine’s murder. One was adamant he perhaps saw the Zodiac but did not stop him; the other saying that that same officer at the time DID tell him they stopped him. Both seemed believable. He said/he said.

Agree with r211

The Long Island series killer is still out there. But, he targeted prostitutes, and nobody cares, except their families.

R213, there have been books and documentaries about LISK so clearly someone cares

Jack the Ripper and the Green River Killer killed prostitutes and they got a ton of media attention

I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.

[quote]Multiple people involved with the case agree it's him.

Some major investigators in the case have looked at him and ruled him out. Plus, he was a counterculture hippie, while the Zodiac seems to be a moralistic rightwinger.

He's an interesting suspect but let's not pretend like there's any consensus here.

R209, Paul Stine's sister said she saw Gaikowski at Paul's funeral.

A source who was at Darlene Ferrin's "painting party" said he recognized Gaikowski as someone who had attended.

[quote] I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.

Because the first three were presented as mysteries to the public--the newspapers were full of their exploits when they were unknown, and people were terrified of them. Zodiac was never captured, it took years for the Unabomber to be caught, and the Son of sam dominated newspaper headlines during one infamous hot summer.

Kraft got some attention as "the Freeway Killer," but it took until they caught him years after the crimes for anyone to put together the pieces that he had killed people in very different places, and nothing like the attention the first three got. And Corll's killings didn't get much attention until he was caught and all his murders were discovered.

Also, newspapers treated the victims differently. Kraft and Corll largely targeted single boys, many of whom (most) were drifters. The Unabomber mostly went after middle-aged college professors (who are seen as valuable members of society), and Berkowitz and Zodiac went mostly after young middle-class heterosexual couples (likely breeders).

"Paul Stine's sister said she saw Gaikowski at Paul's funeral."

And of course there's no way she could be lying or just mistaken. I'm sure she clearly remembers everyone she met 50 years ago

R215 The others didn't have a snazzy costume!!

I didn't make any judgement on the observation, R219, just noting that there are people who say they saw Gaikowski around Darlene Ferrin.

I'm also R216, before you go off half-cocked and ready to flame again.

Some (I can’t remember who) said officer Hoffman was at the painting party, too, but he denied it.

Has serious consideration ever been given to the idea that there more than one person acting as the Zodiac killer? Many people now believe that David Berkowtiz was part of a cult and more than one person may have committed the Son of Sam shootings.

Only after he's dead, and they're going through his diaries at the trump presidential library;.

Serial killers are so boring nowadays

Chaussures de caca

[quote] I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.

The famous ones taunt the public, media and/or police.

In short, they have better PR.

There haven't been serial killers who taunt the police or the newspapers in quite a while. It's too easy to be traced now.

There are still serial killers, but they operate on the quiet mostly. And they don't go after middle-class pillars of the community or your couples--they go after prostitutes and the homeless and drifters: people who won't be as missed.

Why can’t we have a serial killer who targets Republican Senators?

Such a dull serial killer. I don’t know why people are so obsessed with a guy who put a paper bag over his head & shot 5 people over a decade. Your local police department kills that many people with their bare hands. He didn’t even molest anyone. Just bang bang, goodbye, see you in a few years.

I really never followed any of this before this thread, but was anyone else disappointed that it had nothing to do with astrological signs? I imagined this very complex scenario where he killed in cycles related to the signs. Like the first twelve were just straight forward 1-12 and then like all four water signs and working his way through that. That would have really kept everyone on edge, like are the next ones going to be a Virgo, oh no that’s what I am! And then get into rising sign and all kind of craziness. Maybe branch out and do Chinese Zodiac to and go after dogs and dragons? People would have become hyper vigilant about keeping their birthdates a secret and never celebrate birthdays publicly.

It was just a guy with a gun & a paper bag who wrote meaningless squiggles on a piece of paper. No genius, no plotting, no grand scheme, no point.

[quote] He didn’t even molest anyone.

Disappointed?

Shut the FUCK UP, R230 / R232. Who asked you, bitch?!

R214 and R215, the Zodiac is one of the best-known serial killers because he famewhored. He sent letters to the biggest local paper that were published on the front page, he intrigued the public with his ciphers, he made grandiose public thJack the Ripper and the Green River Killer killed prostitutes and they got a ton of media attention reats like saying he'd kill a trick-or-treating child at Halloween, he terrorized the SF Bay Area as well as killing those five known people.

IMHO all the most famous serial killers are those who caused the most widespread public terror, like Son of Sam making NYC quake in its boots, and the Night Stalker scaring the shit out of LA. The Green River Killer did the same for Seattle, BTW he didn't just kill prostitutes, he killed joggers and other respectable citizens. And BTW, did Dahmer terrorize the gay community that way? Not that the press or police would care in his day.

This is part of the dumbing down of America.

When's the last time we saw a serial killer dressed like a clown? Let's step it up a little bit!

I sure hope that he wasn't a Scorpio

We get a bad rap as it is 😔

For me Kane was Zodiac

Nobody thinks it could have been Rick Marshall?

I'm starting to think that maybe the Zodiac was multiple people, like someone upthread put forth as a possibility.

If allen was zodiak he couldn be the one who killed the taxidriver, the sketch do not match, no way.That was not Leigh

Who gave the description for the sketch that didn't match, R240, the kids in the house overlooking the taxidriver's murder?

I would not expect kids to be great witnesses, or good at describing adults they only saw for a moment.

[quote] I would not expect kids to be great witnesses, or good at describing adults they only saw for a moment.

Good point. To teens, everyone over 25 probably looks like some vague, unknown middle age.

R241 No, 2 policeman

Did he get his Zodiac outfit from the thrift store?

I've been wondering why he would bother with that get-up when he wasn't planning to leave any witnesses. For whose benefit was he wearing the outfit? Was it just because he felt like looking pretty?

I was intrigued that the Zodiac shared he applied boat/airplane top-coat to his finger tips to mask his prints.

Scary scene.

R237 Scorpios are known as the best lovers of the zodiac

Weren’t there two or three of messages/riddles from the killer that couldn’t be decoded? Can they be read somewhere?

R248, there were some unsolved ciphers. All of Zodiac's letters and ciphers can be found below.

Thanks R249 I was curious

I took a shot (no pun intended) at the ciphers. Ha. Hard as hell.

Tales of the City author Armistead Maupin had a small role in this whole case, where he thought one of the later Zodiac letters sounded similar to badly disguised fan mail he had received from San Francisco Police Inspector Dave Toschi. Toschi ended up being removed from the Zodiac case after being impeached for faking the killer's supposed letter. The Zodiac case is full of weird little bits like this.

Incidentally, I very much enjoyed the look of 70s-styled Mark Ruffalo in wife beater and short shorts in the movie.

R251, I sort of wonder if the unsolved ciphers are just gibberish? Maybe the Zodiac wanted the country's greatest code-cracking minds to spin their wheels for 50 years.

Never

[quote] I sort of wonder if the unsolved ciphers are just gibberish?

That’s the prevailing wisdom. I think they’ve had fairly sophisticated software programs try to solve them, and nothing. If they were solvable, someone or something would have done it by now.

freaky stuff

r255 not necessarily. Ciphers can be layered and/or personalized, so solving them would require a "key" that might consist of knowledge specific to the killer. That's how amateurs solved one of them.

The show Unsolved Mysteries made some eerie parallels between The Unabomber and the Zodiac

R258 Which episode? I only saw the first two so far

I'm sure one could find eerie parallels between Elizabeth Taylor and the Zodiac, but highly unlikely she was guilty

He wasn't the Unabomber. That's silly.

R258, it's the Unsolved Mysteries episode linked earlier in the thread (not the multi-part series)

If the Golden State Killer case is any indication, all of the popular suspects in the Zodiac case are wrong, and it's some random man nobody has even thought of.

Best thread in years!

Duh, it was Ted Cruz

It was David Fincher

It’s Robert Helper.

I hope we are not done with this thread.

Who IS she? Who WAS she? Who does she hope to BECOME?

I did not know that Robert Graysmith had two books on the case. I e-borrowed "Zodiac Unmasked" from my local library and he's making a pretty strong case for Arthur Leigh Allen...

Non-ALA believers, why do you believe it's not him?

R270, apart from there being no physical evidence that connects him with the crimes, Allen was a pedophile. If he had been a serial killer he would have killed children. Heterosexual couples would not have interested him.

[quote]R215 I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.

Star Quality.

[quote]R260 I'm sure one could find eerie parallels between Elizabeth Taylor and the Zodiac, but highly unlikely she was guilty

Agreed. The Zodiac was a lot thinner than Liz Taylor.

R215, the Zodiac isn't so much famous for the number of victims, for his campaign of terror... and publicity-seeking. I was a kid in the Bay Area then, everyone knew who the Zodiac was, everyone was afraid of him, everyone shuddered when a new letter from him was published and there were months of headlines, everyone saw him lurking in dark corners. Nobody knew when, where, why, or who he'd strike next.

I presume the serial killers who are after the really big numbers keep their activities as quiet as possible, like Robert Pickton, the pig farmer who killed God knows how many prostitutes from the streets of Vancouver, and reportedly disposed of the bodies by bulking out his commercial sausages with Long Pig. He was charged with twenty-odd murders,nobody knows how many victims he really had.

“possibly a latent homosexual”

They used to claim EVERY killer was a "latent homosexual" because they thought gays were crazy

[quote]apart from there being no physical evidence that connects him with the crimes, Allen was a pedophile. If he had been a serial killer he would have killed children. Heterosexual couples would not have interested him.

R271, why do you assume that serial killers' choices of victims are always predicated on sexual attraction?

Could Datalounge solve this one?

There isn't any real evidence pointing to Allen

I think the lady with the baby thrown out the car is a liar.

R280, Kathleen Johns -- I don't think it was the Zodiac, but I do believe a truck driver corroborated her story that she was found frantic off the side of the highway.

R281 Zodiac took credit but after it made the press. She seems like a hysterical housewife looking for attention.

R478, wouldn't that be something?

First question though -- dead or still alive? I thought the Golden State Killer was dead and I was wrong about that.

Bump, again. One of the best threads in a long time

Loved the beautiful Ione Skye as Kathleen Johns in Fincher’s Zodiac. But I agree, that certainly wasn’t his M.O.

On the subject of serial killers stopping, BTK stopped for about eight years at one point and then resumed. They were baffled till they got him, when they discovered it was because he had young kids during that period and was too busy.

(Later, despite this sense of paternal duty, he would go on Scout Camp with his son, leave the tent in the middle of the night when his son was sleeping, kill someone living nearby and go back to sleep in the tent. Great alibi and hard to relate him to the killing because it wasn't where he lived.)

Moral - It's hard to predict serial killers because they are by definition extremely strange dudes.

In Graysmith's second book, he writes that when the detectives finally searched Arthur Leigh Allen's trailer, they found -- among other things -- the largest, soiled wooden dildo they'd ever seen next to a jar of vaseline. Lovely...

^ I remember that scene in the movie, plus all the squirrels, dead and alive, in the trailer. Creepy!

Remember when DL was all atwitter over this?

[quote] You know ever since society go more mobile after WW2, there have been dozens of "invisible" people roaming around our cities and towns. No one pays much attention and they tend to blend into the woodwork, but they're out here and they can be killers and no one will ever catch them. They're like footprints on a sandy beach. The waves wash all traces of them away. And they're predators, looking for other invisible people most of the time, but not always. Look at that Golden State killer or who ever they call him. He was doing his dirt for decades. After watching Mindhunters on Netflix, I can't help wondering how many are out here.

Not so many as there were 40-50 years ago. Serial killers hugely declined once technology improved. The Golden State Killer was captured with DNA testing which hadn't even been widely thought possible when he killed in the 70s and 80s; BTK was caught by improvements in computer technology he didn't understand. BTK, Zodiac and Son of Sam are all highly well known because, as someone said above, they left taunting messages to the police that named themselves; that would be much harder to do in 2020.

There aren't nearly as many today, and the ones who are around (like the Long Island Killer) mostly prey on drifters--homeless people or prostitutes. Again, BTK and Zodiac (and also the Golden State Killer) are scarier to more people today because they preyed mostly on middle-class people--but it's been a while since there's been someone who targets the middle class (because now it's much harder to do that).

David Fincher's movies are always beautifully made, but they're usually pretty devoid of any substance (whereas a film like Jonathan Denme's "Silence of the Lambs" is not only scary but also quite rich in things to say about gender and class and the decline of the Rust Belt, Fiincher's "Se7en" is ultimately pretty thin, though it's very scary). "Zodiac" is his masterpiece so far because it uses the complexity of the case to make up for his lack of interest in politics or family dynamics. The more I watch it, the more convinced I am that so many of the sequences are absolutely first-rate: the first attack (to "Hurdy-Gurdy Man"); the Lake Berryessa sequence; the call-in show with Melvin Belli; Candy Clark figuring out the letter sent to the newspaper office was made with human blood; the scene in the scary basement; the scene near the end at the hardware store with Arthur Leigh Allen recognizing he's been identified.

Fincher did a stunning job with the first three episdoes of the second season of "Mindhunter" retiurning to this territory with the BTK Killer; the sequence with the survivor of the massacred family doing the interview in the back of the car was terrifying and yet no one's life was in danger (you were terrified only by the sheer fear of the survivor).. I hope he gets to do this kind of stuff again because he does it so well.

^ Yes to all this. There are so many great, tense, atmospheric scenes like that. I would also add the car ride with Kathleen Johns. Even though I knew that story already, for someone unknown, the part between where the man threatens to throw her baby out the window with the next scene being a passer by coming across an out-of-her-mind distressed Kathleen without her baby, is just terrifying.

I can't listen to Hurdy-Gurdy Man without shivers going up my spine either.

Oh yes, I forgot that scene, r292! That's one of the best sequences in the film.

One of the weirder things of the film is that Robert Downey Jr. plays a 70s ladies man who lives on a San Francisco houseboat and does coke, which is somehow the same thing Chevy Chase plays in "Foul Play."

I'm re-watching the film tonight. So beautifully done--Ione Skye gives such a beautiful if brief performance as the woman in the car. When she is found by the side of the road firghtened out of her mind, she is so believable.

Why couldn't the killer have been a she. I'm triggered.

Exactly R295 - plus the truck driver and the woman who pulls up do a great job of keeping the tension in the scene by their responses to her, along with the delay for the audience in finding out what happened to the baby. Great scene!

[quote] Loved the beautiful Ione Skye as Kathleen Johns in Fincher’s Zodiac. But I agree, that certainly wasn’t his M.O.

But neither was the cab driver. But Zodiac admitted to the murder of the latter (and sent the strip of shirt dipped with the cab driver's blood) in a letter in the same handwriting as the killer of the other four people.

This is a very well made mystery thriller. The scene in the beginning in which the couple is shot to death is pure cinematic violent art. A very underrated film, in my opinion. One of the decade's best.

I haven't seen a lot of Fincher's stuff, but what I have seen and what I like of what I've seen is how he makes the people in his movies seem like real people, while making the movie stylised at the same time. If that makes sense. And he allows every character to have their moment too, no matter how small their part is. This is based solely on my viewing of Zodiac and Mindhunter, mind you. But he does seem to be interesting in portraying real people.

Oh, I guess I've also seen all his videos he did for Madonna too, which I think would all make a top 10 best Madonna videos list.

Everyone knows it was Ted Cruz.

Was Ted Cruz the first sperm cell to commit murder?

The Zodiac missed his true calling of becoming a costume designer.

I thought Edward Wayne Edwards could be a legit suspect

I haven't heard of that suspect R304. I'm curious, what makes you think so?

The Ted Cruz jokes about the Zodiac Killer are soooo played. Snore. Good god.

[quote] Jonathan Denme's "Silence of the Lambs" is not only scary but also quite rich in things to say about gender and class and the decline of the Rust Belt

Say WHAT?

It was Arthur Lee Allen!

Arthur Leigh Allen wasn’t a match.

Exculpatory Evidence

Direct Evidence:

The eyewitnesses of the Stine murder scene claimed Allen was not the man they saw.

Circumstantial Evidence:

Fingerprints/palm prints did not match.

DNA didn't match.

Handwriting was not a match.

Did not wear glasses.

Was old with grey-black hair.

He died before the police could talk

I wonder if they can do a DNA search now.

Wow.

We don’t know if the DNA in question actually belongs to the Zodiac. There’s no way to know.

R309, there’s a partial DNA profile based on DNA taken from the front of a stamp on an envelope of one of the Zodiac letters. That DNA could belong to literally anyone who has touched it in the past 40+ years. It’s useless.

ID Channel has some big special coming up on the case.

They caught BTK. Who knows?

Do they know if the cryptic code could be a bunch of bullshit? Maybe the person was just fucking with them.

A belated response to R277: the type of crimes the Zodiac Killer committed— ritualistic and repetitive —almost always have a sexual motive.

Maybe he was impotent.

Some say the Zodiac killer posts on DL.

R314, I have sometimes wondered if, after the first cryptogram was solved so quickly, and by laypeople no less, whether Zodiac made up nonsense after that to have a laugh at people getting caught up for years trying to solve it.

I don't know if there's any merit to that thought or not, someone well-versed in cryptography may be able to see something in it that shows it is a real message perhaps? But, I have wondered...

R310 No, my daddy was the Zodiac killer, not his!!! No, no, no!!

They guy is dead or in a nursing home now just like the women in the 1987 issue of Hustler that used to belong to my first step-grandfather that I just found in an old box last month.

It's Ted Cruz

R216 lol Which one? Who ruled him and why? ALA was ruled out too but many people still say that he is the zodiac.Gaik suppposed to be in Ireland in december 68. He wasnt . Police wanted to see his passport but he said he lost it.