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The Zodiac Killer

Will they ever uncover who he is or was?

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by Anonymousreply 2269 hours ago

Has to be dead by now.

by Anonymousreply 106/24/2020

Wasn't it Arthur Leigh Allen?

by Anonymousreply 206/24/2020

There was a rumor that it was the gay porn actor Scorpio.

by Anonymousreply 306/24/2020

This case still freaks me out.

by Anonymousreply 406/24/2020

Some say it was a Hollywood actor.

by Anonymousreply 506/24/2020

It was Ted Cruz. Duh!

by Anonymousreply 606/24/2020

They cracked the EAR/ONS case with familial DNA. I guess there must not be any leftover DNA samples from the Zodiac.

by Anonymousreply 706/24/2020

They have retrieved DNA from one of the stamps on the Zodiac letters. It was too degraded to make a match.

by Anonymousreply 806/24/2020

It was Obama.

by Anonymousreply 906/24/2020

He got away with murder. Scary, indeed.

by Anonymousreply 1006/24/2020

R2, that theory has been discredited. Allen was pedophile (he was convicted of molesting a 12 year old boy), not a serial killer of adult couples.

by Anonymousreply 1106/24/2020

He’s a MAGAT White supremacist. Look at him!

by Anonymousreply 1206/24/2020

There was a rumor that the guy worked for the Gemini Men porn site.

by Anonymousreply 1306/24/2020

[quote] Has to be dead by now.

I'm not dead ... I mean, I'm sure you're right.

by Anonymousreply 1406/24/2020

R11, that makes sense. I guess I got suckered into that theory by Robert Graysmith's book and the subsequent film.

Was that Rick Marshall suspect -- the one who worked at a movie theater -- another dead end?

by Anonymousreply 1506/24/2020

Isn't it Mitt Romney?

by Anonymousreply 1606/24/2020

There was a rumor that the Zodiac Killer died from cancer.

by Anonymousreply 1706/24/2020

David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film about the case and Arthur Allen Leigh that leaves the viewer to make his own decisions. There's direct and circumstantial evidence there and Leigh was identified by two surviving victims. It's a rabbit hole.

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by Anonymousreply 1806/24/2020

David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film about the case and Arthur Allen Leigh that leaves the viewer to make his own decisions. There's direct and circumstantial evidence there and Leigh was identified by two surviving victims. It's a rabbit hole.

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by Anonymousreply 1906/24/2020

He was Jim Nabors, TV's "Gomer Pyle"

by Anonymousreply 2006/24/2020

Is this even considered an active case anymore?

by Anonymousreply 2106/24/2020

Zodiac definitely builds the case against Leigh.

by Anonymousreply 2206/24/2020

Walter Mercado kept trying to tell you and you just wouldn't listen. Then he died.

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by Anonymousreply 2306/24/2020

So many suspects were eliminated by that quack who did handwriting analysis.

by Anonymousreply 2406/24/2020

R19, I'm not really the biggest true crime aficionado, but after watching the Fincher film years ago, I fell down a bit of a rabbit-hole and found an in-depth Zodiac site with lots of information about the case. The webmaster makes a case for Rick Marshall, and in fact, Mr. Marshall personally e-mailed him! Freaky stuff.

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by Anonymousreply 2506/24/2020

A cold case if there ever was one.

by Anonymousreply 2606/25/2020

That sketch is the stuff of nightmares, OP. Can you imagine seeing THAT coming your way while you're on a picnic?

by Anonymousreply 2706/25/2020

R27, I first saw that drawing on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries. One of the scariest cases, IMO. So brazen and never caught.

by Anonymousreply 2806/25/2020

It's Mitt Romney. Seriously. That Ted Cruz stuff was put out by Mitt's camp to deflect the fact that Mitt is fucking Zodiac Killer

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by Anonymousreply 2906/25/2020

r17 if no one knows who he is how do they know what he died from?

by Anonymousreply 3006/25/2020

They found the Golden State Killer after all those years, so who knows, maybe they'll crack this case too

by Anonymousreply 3106/25/2020

[quote] They have retrieved DNA from one of the stamps on the Zodiac letters. It was too degraded to make a match.

Not quite. It’s only a partial sample. It’s still contains viable genetic info but it will take more than just a DNA match to identify him. Corroborating info like residential records, employment history, that kind of stuff.

by Anonymousreply 3206/25/2020

The big question is why did he suddenly stop?

by Anonymousreply 3306/25/2020

R17, I heard it was either scorpions or a goat that got him.

by Anonymousreply 3406/25/2020

r18, Graysmith was guilty of fudging a lot of the "evidence" against Arthur Leigh Allen. The case against him is really thin.

by Anonymousreply 3506/25/2020

Didn't some lady come forward several years ago stating that she was almost certain the Zodiac killer was her own father? IIRC it was after he had died.

by Anonymousreply 3606/25/2020

His name was Neil Murray

by Anonymousreply 3706/25/2020

Here is the link to what I was referring to.

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by Anonymousreply 3806/25/2020

Steve Hodel also claimed his dad was Zodiac.

by Anonymousreply 3906/25/2020

Those claims were just as made up as the "My dad killed the Black Dahlia" idiots

by Anonymousreply 4006/25/2020

Some people thought Bruce Davis of the Manson family was the Zodiac, but I think that has been ruled out.

by Anonymousreply 4106/25/2020

I don’t know much about it, is there a good documentary to watch to catch up before diving into the thread?

by Anonymousreply 4206/25/2020

This Is the Zodiac Speaking is a documentary that was included on the DVD extras with the Fincher film. It features interviews with investigators and witnesses many of whom have since passed away.

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by Anonymousreply 4306/25/2020

Regarding the Zodiac costume I feel like he was playing the role of a comic book villian. In his letters he makes references to comic books and pulp fiction novels. In that case it seems like he would be very young, maybe early 20s, and could still be alive today.

by Anonymousreply 4406/25/2020

[quote] The big question is why did he suddenly stop?

He dropped dead from a Charley Horse.

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by Anonymousreply 4506/25/2020

Is this the one Patton Oswald’s wife caught?

by Anonymousreply 4606/25/2020

R46, no. And she never caught anyone or was even close -- she was a latecomer to the EAR/ONS/Golden State Killer case. But she does deserve credit for renaming him the Golden State Killer and bringing more attention to the case.

by Anonymousreply 4706/25/2020

The movie Zodiac with Jake Gyllenhaul and Robert Downey, Jr. scared the hell out of me. I love that movie but still can’t watch it alone at night.

by Anonymousreply 4806/25/2020

R33 he might’ve been incarcerated on something else, died or continued his killing without the fanfare. If he was young enough in the late 60s, he could very well be alive today. If you think about the many people that go missing, it’s very disturbing. Plus he bragged in one of his letters he could make the killings look accidental.

by Anonymousreply 4906/25/2020

R38, that woman also claimed to be the illegitimate daughter of JFK.. These people are usually full of delusions. Hodel and the Black Dahlia still fascinates me along with that LA house where it may have happened. Spooky.

R25, thanks for that link. I used to read at that site but I lost the link - those people can be very crazy, not just obsessive but craaazy. Still the research is fun - you know, as much as serials killers are fun.

by Anonymousreply 5006/25/2020

Where was the president during the late 60s?

by Anonymousreply 5106/25/2020

R51, Bone Spurs is far too stupid to have pulled off anything like communicating via complex ciphers.

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by Anonymousreply 5206/25/2020

The History Channel did a series last year called The Hunt for the Zodiac Killer. I forgot who the said the killer was, but it was not Arthur Leigh Allen. The series was very thorough and scientific. You can watch it on Youtube.

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by Anonymousreply 5306/25/2020

I seriously doubt any of the name "suspects" did it. If he's ever caught - I think it will be someone who was never considered a suspect (like The Golden State killer)

by Anonymousreply 5406/25/2020

Or it was someone who was eliminated early on due to the quackery science of handwriting analysis.

by Anonymousreply 5506/25/2020

Hold me, David, I’m scared.

by Anonymousreply 5606/25/2020

[Quote] David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film

It's a GREAT film. It should have been awarded as such.

by Anonymousreply 5706/25/2020

[quote]Steve Hodel also claimed his dad was Zodiac.

I honestly don't even believe that George Hodel killed Elizabeth Short at this point. Steve Hodel needs to stop. He's really ruining any credibility he may or may not have had with these claims.

by Anonymousreply 5806/25/2020

It's Mitt Romney. Read the linked thread, look at the police sketch, look at one of the only samples of Mitt's writing available try to read one of those Zodiac letters not in his voice. Look up the Mormon references the Zodiac used.

by Anonymousreply 5906/25/2020

R59 The hair on back of my neck just stood up, I’m so creeped out.

by Anonymousreply 6006/25/2020

The scariest detail from the case is that the Zodiac seemed to have called some of his victims' family members and left 'breathing' phone calls. What a freak!

by Anonymousreply 6106/25/2020

Hillary wasn't ruled.

by Anonymousreply 6206/25/2020

It was Jackie Hoffman

by Anonymousreply 6306/25/2020

The original Unsolved Mysteries case about the Zodiac -- scared me as a kid when it first aired!

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by Anonymousreply 6406/25/2020

Do we have a Jackie Hoffman Troll now, on top of everything?

by Anonymousreply 6506/25/2020

[quote]The movie Zodiac with Jake Gyllenhaul and Robert Downey, Jr. scared the hell out of me. I love that movie but still can’t watch it alone at night.

The scene were Gyllenhaal visits the old house in the middle of nothing at night and hears someone moving in the house while his host claims there's no one else there was truly terrifying.

by Anonymousreply 6606/25/2020

R66, the Lake Berryessa scene scared me most.

by Anonymousreply 6706/25/2020

That scene was filmed exactly where the attack happened.

by Anonymousreply 6806/25/2020

Okay, you can tie us up- but please don't hurt us!

by Anonymousreply 6906/25/2020

I think it probably was Arthur Leigh Allen, but we’ll never know for sure. If it wasn’t him, the culprit is most likely dead. The murders were over 50 years ago, and the Zodiac was estimated to be 30-35 years old at the time.

by Anonymousreply 7006/25/2020

[quote] the Lake Berryessa scene scared me most.

I could barely watch that scene. It wasn't until I saw the DVD extras which included "the making of" that scene that I was able to view it objectively and that took the fear away.

The two were both stabbed in the back while they were lying prone on the ground but because the girl was so much lighter he was able to pick her up and also stab her in the front. That was just so sad to me. She died the next day in the hospital. They really survived quite a while considering how long it took to get help. The guy became a lawyer.

Thanks to those who posted links to the documentaries.

by Anonymousreply 7106/25/2020

R65 First time I brought her up—probably because I’m watching The Apolitician.

Would you rather Ibsuggested Mary Testa?

by Anonymousreply 7206/25/2020

Zodiac (2007) is one of the greatest movies ever made. It’s probably the scariest movie I’ve seen as an adult.

What did Graysmith fudge about the case against ALA? I don’t doubt it, I’m just unclear on the details. The coincidences are pretty nuts.

The guy that the zodiac killer dot com website is convinced did it was positively ID’d by voice by the police dispatcher who took the July 4th call, but who knows how accurate such an identification is.

The documentaries included with the Blu ray—and there are 2 of them, one that has an overview of the case and is nearly 2 hours long, and one that focuses just on ALA, about an hour long—are as terrifying as the movie itself. I highly recommend the Blu ray for those documentaries alone!

I haven’t looked into Mitt Romney as a suspect, but I wonder what a serious criminal profiler would say about him.

R1, he certainly doesn’t have to be dead by now. Not everyone who was in the mid to late 20s in the late 60s is dead. It’s not like the murders occurred in the 40s.

by Anonymousreply 7306/25/2020

Please buy a Blu ray player. They’re like $30. Your TV is HDTV, if not UHDTV (which is actually standard now), there’s no reason your video disc playback machine should be limited to a 20-year-old, non-HD format. The Zodiac Blu ray is very cheap (like $14.99 when it was brand new in ~2008) and is worth every damn penny.

by Anonymousreply 7406/25/2020

Behold! The horror that is the Zodiac Killer :

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by Anonymousreply 7506/25/2020

What became of Bruce McArthur, the Toronto gay serial killer? I can't find any updates in a Google search.

by Anonymousreply 7606/25/2020

I feel really jaded and grim saying this, but I’ve never found the Zodiac Murders to be terribly interesting.

He only killed a few people....then he disappeared.

by Anonymousreply 7706/25/2020

Didn't the teenage survivor from the first attack (in the car) ID Arthur Leigh Allen from photographs?

by Anonymousreply 7806/25/2020

Yes, R78.

by Anonymousreply 7906/25/2020

I thought I remembered Jimmi Simpson from the Fincher movie -- it was the last scene, I think. Fincher would later cast him in House of Cards.

by Anonymousreply 8006/25/2020

The Zodiac Killer was Mary Wickes. Everybody knows that.

by Anonymousreply 8106/25/2020

That witness suffers from drug addiction and mental illness. He appears in the Fincher documentaries and it's clear his brain is fried.

by Anonymousreply 8206/25/2020

Yes, he was clearly suffering from Floating Arm Syndrome at the time of that documentary’s shooting.

by Anonymousreply 8306/25/2020

David Fincher makes scrupulously beautiful films.

I have a great deal of respect for him.

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by Anonymousreply 8406/25/2020

Two Zodiac survivors, Mike Mageau and Bryan Hartnell, identified Arthur Leigh Allen as their attacker.

by Anonymousreply 8506/25/2020

One of the main suspects, Rick Marshall, is interviewed here. I had no idea they had videotape of him speaking. He's the guy in the film who takes Graysmith down to his basement, btw.

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by Anonymousreply 8606/25/2020

Bryan Hartnell never saw Zodiac's face.

by Anonymousreply 8706/25/2020

[quote] [R25], thanks for that link. I used to read at that site but I lost the link - those people can be very crazy, not just obsessive but craaazy.

R50, agreed. I think when you're e-mailing back and forth with the potential Zodiac, that might be taking it a tad bit too far...

by Anonymousreply 8806/25/2020

Walt Disney told us with his last written words. Kurt Russell. Kurt started very young and Walt knew it. The first clue? He had a hit list that started with all the former Mouseketeers. That boyish grin, the blue eyes and all-american look hid the serial killer inside. He later stated grooming Scott Baio. But Scott was too busy screwing Erin Moran and Willie Aames to be of any use. He thought about Adam Rich but Kurt thought he was a 30 year midget. He even about OJ, but who would have thought that OJ could kill anybody?

by Anonymousreply 8906/25/2020

If Bryan Hartnell had died we wouldn't know about the Zodiac costume.

by Anonymousreply 9006/25/2020

[quote]He only killed a few people

Oh, fuck you.

by Anonymousreply 9106/25/2020

None of you even watched the 5-part series that the History Channel did on the Zodiac killer. The actually broke the codes in his letters. They did an exhaustive search and the person they named as the killer is not Arthur Leigh Allen. Why didn't you watch it? I highly recommend it.

All 5 episodes are on Youtube. I linked the first episode. Watch all 5 and then tell me what you think.

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by Anonymousreply 9206/25/2020

R92, thanks. I will watch this weekend!

by Anonymousreply 9306/25/2020

Didn't they think the unabomber was the Zodiac at some point?

by Anonymousreply 9406/25/2020

There's a partial DNA profile of the Zodiac taken from stamps and envelopes, and Allen unfortunately didn't match.

by Anonymousreply 9506/25/2020

There's a photo of victim Darlene Ferrin with an unknown man that many think may be the Zodiac:

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by Anonymousreply 9606/25/2020

The man in that photo is Jim Crabtree who was Darlene's ex-husband.

by Anonymousreply 9706/25/2020

Isn't that DB Cooper?

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by Anonymousreply 9806/25/2020

That's what I get for reading Wikipedia about this, R97.

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by Anonymousreply 9906/25/2020

R96, I'm guessing a lot men wore those thick coke bottle glasses back in the late '60s.

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by Anonymousreply 10006/25/2020

I watched that series when it was new, R92. I didn’t like the “reality TV” approach it took to documenting their investigation, if I remember correctly. Curiously I don’t remember the suspect they zeroed in on.

by Anonymousreply 10106/25/2020

That sketch looks like my dad circa 1969 but I'm sure he's not the Zodiac.

by Anonymousreply 10206/25/2020

I mean... are you SURE sure?

by Anonymousreply 103Last Friday at 12:04 AM

I'm sure we would have noticed if he left us in Missouri and moved to the Bay area.

by Anonymousreply 104Last Friday at 12:06 AM

Did Jake and Mark both play there characters as if they were on the spectrum? Were they or was that some acting choice they made?

by Anonymousreply 105Last Friday at 1:55 AM

Aren't there something like 100 serial killers in the US right now? I'm more interested in law enforcement catching them.

by Anonymousreply 106Last Friday at 2:43 AM

Gyllenhaal in "Zodiac": 10 times more chemistry with Robert Downey Jr. than with his love interest Chloe Sevigny

by Anonymousreply 107Last Friday at 3:10 AM

R106, with cellphones and GPS tracking technology, their jobs just became that much harder...

by Anonymousreply 108Last Friday at 6:24 AM

R105, I loved the movie and Fincher is brilliant, but everything I read about the experience of working with Fincher indicated that unlike many directors, Fincher doesn't allow his actors much, if any freedom to build and interpret their characters. He was specific in the extreme, down to the smallest detail, and would shoot like 70 takes. No exaggeration.

I thought Mark Ruffalo, Robert Downey, Jr. and Jake did a great job. The movie worked. It was effective. Fincher wanted to capture the terror that gripped the city. And you're right who ever said he only killed a few people. When you measure the sensation he caused with the actual crimes committed, he was no John Wayne Gacy.

by Anonymousreply 109Last Friday at 6:58 AM

R109, I don't scare easily -- especially not from movies -- but I saw Zodiac on DVD in a remote cabin rental at night and it spooked me the rest of the night, lol.

by Anonymousreply 110Last Friday at 9:36 AM

Good, R110. I think that's exactly what Fincher was going for.

by Anonymousreply 111Last Friday at 10:52 AM

It was very creepy when they were in the basement looking at the old posters and Jake said that they thought Zodiac had drawn them. Projectionist guy says HE drew them. GAH.

by Anonymousreply 112Last Friday at 10:55 AM

And then the front door is locked with a key. GAH.

by Anonymousreply 113Last Friday at 11:00 AM

i might have to rewatch this tonight. Robert Downey Jr is hilarious.

by Anonymousreply 114Last Friday at 11:03 AM

[quote] There's a partial DNA profile of the Zodiac taken from stamps and envelopes, and Allen unfortunately didn't match.

There is no way of knowing whose DNA that is. It could belong to literally anyone who has ever touched the stamps/envelope. So, no, we don’t have a DNA profile of the Zodiac, partial or otherwise.

by Anonymousreply 115Last Friday at 11:34 AM

Bryan Hartnell said that the Lake Berryessa stabbing scene in Fincher’s Zodiac was so accurate that he found it difficult to watch.

by Anonymousreply 116Last Friday at 11:36 AM

^Bryan Hartnell seemed able to have moved on and become very well-adjusted and lived a normal life after such a brutal attack. Contrast that with poor Mike Mageau, who I don't think ever recovered.

by Anonymousreply 117Last Friday at 11:40 AM

R94, I believe they ruled out Ted Kaczynski (sp.?).

by Anonymousreply 118Last Friday at 2:07 PM

I bet he is none of the main suspects. Probably just some nobody who lived a quiet life after the crimes and then died.

by Anonymousreply 119Last Friday at 3:50 PM

If it’s not Allen, I think he’s somebody no one’s ever heard of and he probably does not long after the last confirmed letter (which was in 1974).

by Anonymousreply 120Last Friday at 4:34 PM

does= died

by Anonymousreply 121Last Friday at 4:34 PM

Why assume he’s dead, though?

by Anonymousreply 122Last Friday at 7:01 PM

It was Trump

by Anonymousreply 123Last Friday at 7:13 PM

r123, wow, that's such a clever response

by Anonymousreply 124Last Friday at 7:30 PM

They used saliva found on the stamp, R115. There's not much chance it was someone else's saliva on the back of the stamp that was still adhered to the envelope until police removed it.

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by Anonymousreply 125Last Friday at 7:33 PM

There’s the theory that the killer had an accomplice, that one did the killings and the other wrote and mailed the letters. There’s also some discrepancy between the sketches of the suspect that fueled that theory.

I really like Arthur Leigh Allen as a suspect, so I’m also open to the theory that he could have been the killer but had an accomplice, but I also acknowledge that he was a pedo and the killings don’t fit that profile.

by Anonymousreply 126Last Friday at 8:15 PM

Yes he’ll be uncovered in exactly four years and three months, Rose.

by Anonymousreply 127Last Friday at 9:24 PM

[quote]R109 ...everything I read about the experience of working with Fincher indicated that unlike many directors, Fincher doesn't allow his actors much, if any, freedom to build and interpret their characters. He was specific in the extreme, down to the smallest detail, and would shoot like 70 takes.

And yet, I have never seen an actor give less than a very good performance in any of his films. Do we think Goop would have been better in SE7EN if left to her own devices?

The Variety (?) review for ZODIAC said it was “perfectly cast, down to the smallest role.”

So who’s to say there’s anything wrong with David Fincher’s technique?

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by Anonymousreply 128Last Friday at 9:31 PM

I was very impressed with whoever played Arthur Leigh Allen in the film.

by Anonymousreply 129Last Friday at 11:18 PM

I think it would be someone who died within a few years of the last deaths. I don’t see how a serial killer, who enjoyed taunting the police and the media, would just stop. Would you suddenly gain a conscience, move elsewhere, and live quietly for decades?

by Anonymousreply 130Last Friday at 11:37 PM

I like the theory that the man who lived under the name Joseph Newton Chandler was the Zodiac. 0

by Anonymousreply 131Last Saturday at 12:07 AM

Didn't the Golden State Killer just stop, though?

by Anonymousreply 132Last Saturday at 12:12 AM

It was G. She stopped because she finally got a movie contract.

by Anonymousreply 133Last Saturday at 12:16 AM

R132, yes. 1986 was his last murder, I believe, and then he just stopped. A lot of people believed he had either been imprisoned or died. Turns out he was leading a normal life as a family man!

by Anonymousreply 134Last Saturday at 12:23 AM

R130 I agree with what you said in that I wonder if defining him as a serial killer is the problem. Maybe that label just doesn’t fit who he is and why he killed. I did a deep dive over this, but far from all details. One thing is don’t most serial killers have a pathological need for trophies as a way to acknowledge and commemorate their killings? Other than the taxi driver’s shirt cuttings, which he did to authenticate who he was, did he take items from the others?

Is there such thing as a “joy” killer, or with the idea of The Most Dangerous Game, a “game” killer, who does it for the sport of it? I could see if the first woman, the waitress, was known to the killer and it was more of a revenge murder, he might have found that exhilarating and then began to ritualize the next time with the couple by the lake. The cipher and letters to the press added yet another “game” element to it. They really believe who ever it was had be ex military right? Maybe it’s just an extension of strategic ops training maneuvers to him rather than serial killing? Just some thoughts from my limited recent introduction to these murders.

by Anonymousreply 135Last Saturday at 1:39 AM

R129 If I’m not mistaken doesn’t he also play one of the serial killers on the Groff FBI profiling streaming show? Can you imagine the actor’s mother hearing “Your son has the face of a serial killer” all the time.

by Anonymousreply 136Last Saturday at 1:42 AM

The actor is John Carroll Lynch. He also played Twisty the Clown on AHS.

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by Anonymousreply 137Last Saturday at 1:48 AM

There are some real odd ducks around this case. If you delve even half-heartedly into the online forums, you will undoubtedly come across this woman called Sandy, who seems to believe the Zodiac, or people associated with him, have been stalking and threatening to kill her since the late 60's. The weirdest part about it is while a lot of people dismiss her, a lot of people also take her seriously too, for whatever reason. For the past 20 years at least that I'm aware of she has been promising to show proof of all the evidence she has of this story (including her claim that the Zodiac killer left the hood worn at the Lake Berryessa murders in her car), but strangely she still hasn't come forward with all this stuff yet...

by Anonymousreply 138Last Saturday at 1:50 AM

Darlene Ferrin might not have been his first kill. The 1963 murders of Linda Edwards and Robert Domingos is very similiar to the Berryessa attack.

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by Anonymousreply 139Last Saturday at 1:56 AM

^ yes, from what I understand, there is evidence those two got loose from their ropes and ran away, or tried to? And so there is some thought that this is why he was so careful when tying Brian and Cecilia at Lake Berryessa.

by Anonymousreply 140Last Saturday at 1:58 AM

r108 there's an old military saying, "If the enemy's in range, so are you". They've adapted.

A lot are around organized crime, particularly human trafficking.

by Anonymousreply 141Last Saturday at 2:11 AM

[quote]Darlene Ferrin might not have been his first kill.

Might? MIGHT?!?

by Anonymousreply 142Last Saturday at 5:25 AM

[quote]They used saliva found on the stamp, [R115].

This is the only place I’ve read that they used saliva. Everything else I’ve read says it was DNA from the front of the stamp.

I’ve also read that initially they attempted to use DNA from one of the (many) hoax letters. Maybe that’s where they found the saliva.

by Anonymousreply 143Last Saturday at 5:30 AM

Whoever he was, he had a keen sense of high fashion!

by Anonymousreply 144Last Saturday at 6:24 AM

The History channel series definitively named the identity of the Zodiac Killer, but some of you don't want to know the answer. I guess it's more fun to speculate, and wonder if he's still out there, then it is to know the killer's true identity.

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by Anonymousreply 145Last Saturday at 9:07 AM

I don't know why other people are fascinated by this case, unless it's the attraction of an unsolved mystery, but I grew up in the Bay Area during the Zodiac's era. I was eight years old when he first hit the headline, and 14 when he officially ended his famewhoring campaign.

It was a part of the background of life, knowing that a notorious serial killer was out there, picking off strays and cancelling Halloween when I was in grade school, because he'd threatened to kill some random child. Which didn't stop the older kids from glamorizing hitchhiking and running away, I really had no idea what a weird time I lived in. Well, the weird times are back now, and I was too young to be part of the fun then, and I'm too old now.

by Anonymousreply 146Last Saturday at 9:33 AM

R145 I tried watching those episodes, but kept falling asleep. There was too much filler or repeating information and building to dramatic effect like tabloid news. There may have been about 20 minutes of original content in each episode and I wasn’t going to sit through them and try and parse it out. But if you want to share the conclusion with us that would be wonderful instead of trying to goad us into watching it.

by Anonymousreply 147Last Saturday at 10:08 AM

One book I read, don't remember which, said that he quit killing after he was almost caught by the police after killing the grad student who was working as a taxi driver.

by Anonymousreply 148Last Saturday at 10:43 AM

Usually, when a high profile case isn't solved for any length of time, it's either a cop or someone well-off (or they have a connection to the case).

Whoever went into that rowhouse in Paul Stine's murder is probably the killer.

by Anonymousreply 149Last Saturday at 10:50 AM

In the book or the film, didn't they allude that Darlene Ferrin knew her killer beforehand?

by Anonymousreply 150Last Saturday at 10:53 AM

r150 yes but I'd take that book & author with a grain of salt.

by Anonymousreply 151Last Saturday at 11:53 AM

Mike Mageau said that he thought Darlene recognized the car that pulled up behind them. He asked her who it was and she said “Don’t worry about it.” In some versions of the story he told, she said his name was Richard. Mageau is not a terribly reliable witness. The shooting messed him up mentally and he has struggled with drug addiction for decades.

One piece of circumstantial evidence against Allen is that he lived within walking distance of the IHOP where Darlene Ferrin worked and may have known her in passing.

by Anonymousreply 152Last Saturday at 12:53 PM

Between the Zodiac, Manson family, and other killers of that time, California seemed to have some scary characters walking around.

by Anonymousreply 153Last Saturday at 4:05 PM

R151, is there a better book about the Zodiac Killer out there? I'm only familiar with Graysmith's work.

by Anonymousreply 154Last Saturday at 6:10 PM

No, there really isn’t. There isn’t much that Graysmith got wrong. He absolutely believes that Allen was the Zodiac, so it’s definitely not unbiased in that regard. But his research was invaluable.

by Anonymousreply 155Last Saturday at 6:16 PM

"Usually, when a high profile case isn't solved for any length of time, it's either a cop or someone well-off (or they have a connection to the case)."

That's not true at all. There are a lot of high profile cases that were solved decades after the fact due to forensic genealogy and the perp hardly ever turns out to be a cop (I can think of only one instance where that happened - the Golden State Killer) . They never seem to be "well-off" either - the vast majority are poor.

by Anonymousreply 156Last Saturday at 6:20 PM

The Hunt For the Zodiac Killer show mentioned upthread named a guy called Ross Sullivan as the Zodiac, but that doesn't mean he did it. The evidence against him in shaky. He lived in Santa Cruz, not anywhere close to any of the murders.

by Anonymousreply 157Last Saturday at 7:49 PM

Another possible Zodiac victim was Cheri Jo Bates, a college student in Riverside, CA, who was murdered in 1966.

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by Anonymousreply 158Last Saturday at 8:08 PM

Also John and Joyce Swindle, a honeymooning couple who were killed by a sniper.

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by Anonymousreply 159Last Saturday at 8:19 PM

I admit to never being familiar with Donovan's "Hurdy Gurdy Man" before the Zodiac film. Now, I can't listen to it without thinking of the case..

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by Anonymousreply 160Last Saturday at 8:20 PM

[quote]This is the only place I’ve read that they used saliva.

Not sure what you mean by "this." The link was to SFGate but other sites like The Atlantic, The Advocate and Sacramento Bee have said the same thing about the back of the stamp. They also mention envelope seals along with the back of the stamp.

It's possible that the samples were contaminated but with multiple samples we'd surely know that by now; each sample would provide a different profile, meaning some (or all) were contaminated and they wouldn't be able to tell which (if any) had the correct DNA.

by Anonymousreply 161Last Saturday at 8:24 PM

Interesting, R159 -- a wristwatch that probably had paint splatter was missing from the Swindle murder scene, and a Timex watch with paint spatter on it was found at the scene of Cheri Jo Bates' murder.

Neither murder is officially a Zodiac murder, but many believe they are.

by Anonymousreply 162Last Saturday at 8:48 PM

The murders stopped when Mitt moved to Boston. Don't forget he had a documented history of dressing as a cop and pulling people over.

by Anonymousreply 163Last Saturday at 9:25 PM

I thought that the DNA from the back of the stamp was identified as coming from a woman.

by Anonymousreply 164Last Saturday at 10:38 PM

That song gives me chills R160. Like you, I can't not think of the movie when I hear it. I watched the movie again recently, and it surprises me it didn't do as well, because it really is excellent in my opinion. My favourite scene is probably the Kathleen Johns chapter.

I have the original book by Graysmith (which we have to admit is full of supposition and rumour), and the list in there of potential Zodiac cases is astronomical. But I personally believe he did stop after Paul Stine, and lived off his notoriety for awhile after, without killing. Being infamous seemed more enjoyable to him than the murders. That letter where he said something like: "I will now change my method of collecting slaves" I think is a pretty obvious clue that he was intending to just claim whatever he could as one of his crimes to keep instilling fear in the community without having to do anything.

There were a lot of freaky murders and disappearances around that time in California. One of the online investigators who had a website where he claimed Zodiac was likely to be Bruce Davis had a huge list of disappearances of young women who were either hitchhiking or had broken down cars and were seen with a young man approaching them.

by Anonymousreply 165Last Saturday at 11:31 PM

You know ever since society go more mobile after WW2, there have been dozens of "invisible" people roaming around our cities and towns. No one pays much attention and they tend to blend into the woodwork, but they're out here and they can be killers and no one will ever catch them. They're like footprints on a sandy beach. The waves wash all traces of them away. And they're predators, looking for other invisible people most of the time, but not always. Look at that Golden State killer or who ever they call him. He was doing his dirt for decades. After watching Mindhunters on Netflix, I can't help wondering how many are out here.

by Anonymousreply 166Last Sunday at 4:52 AM

Graysmith got too caught up. Too absorbed. because at a certain point, you develop a theory, and then either consciously or unconsciously you start gathering or looking for evidence that supports your theory. But I did watch the movie again two nights ago. And yes Leigh Allen seemed like the best possible suspect. I had no idea he lived in his mother's basement right across from the pancake house where that one girl worked.

by Anonymousreply 167Last Sunday at 4:56 AM

That murder by the lake , when the zodiak was dressed like an idiot , with that zodiak sign on the chest was ridicolous. That was not made by Zodiak, no chance.

by Anonymousreply 168Last Sunday at 5:10 AM

"I thought that the DNA from the back of the stamp was identified as coming from a woman."


by Anonymousreply 169Last Sunday at 9:00 AM

[quote]r168 that zodiak sign on the chest was ridicolous. That was not made by Zodiak, no chance.

Look, not everyone's Project Runway material, okay?

by Anonymousreply 170Last Sunday at 9:10 AM

Bryan Hartnell said that the symbol on the hood was sewn on by someone who really knew what they were doing. It wasn’t a slapdash job.

by Anonymousreply 171Last Sunday at 10:58 AM

[quote] I had no idea he lived in his mother's basement

I was surprised by the mention of suspects' basements in this case. Basements in California are rare.

That Zodiac site I linked to upthread -- they seem very keen on a man named Richard Gaikowski being the Zodiac. Like that's their number one suspect.

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by Anonymousreply 172Last Sunday at 11:33 AM

"Bryan Hartnell said that the symbol on the hood was sewn on by someone who really knew what they were doing."

Wasn't he attacked in the dark?

by Anonymousreply 173Last Sunday at 6:43 PM

The attack happened at 6:15 PM so it was still broad daylight. Here's an interview with Bryan while he was recovering.

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by Anonymousreply 174Last Sunday at 7:11 PM

What in the hell, R172, that's incredible. The cipher solving to GYKE AUSE KEY is unbelievable.

by Anonymousreply 175Last Sunday at 7:57 PM

How many hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions has been spent on this case by law officials and others over the years without any resolution? It reminds me of the Madeline McCann case is the amount and depth of time, money and resources spent with out an outcome. It seems like it’s grown into a whole mini industry in and of itself. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there are Zodiac tours in the Bay Area one could take.

by Anonymousreply 176Last Sunday at 10:48 PM

That lawyer needs to reveal the identity of the man who entered his office after hours.

by Anonymousreply 177Last Sunday at 11:35 PM

r171 that & the Mikado references in the notes always struck me as incongruous as fuck for this type of case (especially since there was a military connection floated at the same time.)

by Anonymousreply 178Last Sunday at 11:57 PM

Or what about the Riverside desk poem. I believe he wrote it and went to that school. I doubt it was a huge school. Couldn’t they have gotten a list of all the male registered students and cross referenced them?

Also, did anyone follow-up and check out the house the man walked into after Paul Stine’s murder? I don’t recall.

by Anonymousreply 179Last Monday at 2:09 PM

His "quotations" from The Mikado were very inexact and riddled with errors.

by Anonymousreply 180Last Monday at 2:51 PM

^ And curiously, one of his misquotations was a line that was changed for Groucho Marx, who starred in a 1960 television version.

by Anonymousreply 181Last Monday at 3:07 PM

R179 I believe the police may have had their eye on someone for the murder of Cheri Jo Bates in Riverside but were unable to get enough evidence, especially after that case became connected with the Zodiac. From what I understand, they don't really think the two are connected.

After Paul Stine's murder, the Zodiac didn't walk into a house, but into the Presidio. A couple of police officers passed him, or who is believed to have been him, on their way to the crime scene, but either they didn't stop him but kept driving because they had been told the suspect was a black man (the police version), or they did stop him and let him go (Zodiac's version in one of his letters).

by Anonymousreply 182Last Monday at 3:33 PM

r182 I remembered it as a rowhouse, the Presidio makes more sense.

r181 I still found it odd. It's almost like he was taunting the police with a clue. I think it would have significance regardless because it's not your typical serial killer reference. The erudite, Silence of the Lambs type is extremely rare.

by Anonymousreply 183Last Monday at 3:43 PM

Didn't the Stine killing happen in front of a rowhouse and was witnessed by two or three children playing in a front room who witnessed it?

by Anonymousreply 184Last Monday at 3:49 PM

^Yes that's right.

by Anonymousreply 185Last Monday at 3:50 PM

R53, thank you for that link. I'd never heard of Ross Sullivan as a suspect before, and he sounds like a good one. I've only made it up to episode two so far.

I went to college in Riverside in the '00s (not Riverside Community College ), so I was only a couple of miles away from where Zodiac targeted Cheri Jo Bates. I've been on that campus before and that library.

by Anonymousreply 186Last Monday at 4:15 PM

The History channel program was the first one to tie the Cheri Jo Bates murder to the Zodiac.

by Anonymousreply 187Last Monday at 4:22 PM

r187, no, it wasn't

by Anonymousreply 188Last Monday at 4:24 PM

The witnesses were in the attic windows of this house, r184. Paul Stone’s cab would have been across the street from the car in the photo, facing in the opposite direction

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by Anonymousreply 189Last Monday at 5:03 PM


by Anonymousreply 190Last Monday at 5:03 PM

I watched that full History Channel series. It definitely does not make any conclusions about who the killer was, so I don’t know why the one DLer upthread is saying we could just watch the series and find out (?).

But it sure ends on a cliffhanger. They’re going to cross-test the DNA from the gloves found inside Stone’s cab with the blood on Cheri Jo Bates’ pants. Well, what’s taking so long?

I have to say, one of the coolest things about that series and the This Is The Zodiac Speaking documentary is how they actually show the bloody, ripped clothing worn by the victims. Very haunting. Especially after only reading about the crimes, seeing dramatizations. Seeing artifacts from the real thing—that’s powerful (to a dork like me).

Re: the Presidio, the Zodiac said he ducked into the Presidio and escaped that way, but there was also a man the patrol car drove past who did go up to the doorway of a house. It’s mentioned in the aforementioned Zodiac Speaking documentary.

by Anonymousreply 191Last Monday at 6:33 PM

STINE’s* cab! Jesus Christ.

by Anonymousreply 192Last Monday at 6:34 PM

I might as well spoil myself with that History Channel documentary -- do they rule out Ross Sullivan?

by Anonymousreply 193Last Monday at 6:38 PM

Thanks R191, I had missed the story that he had been seen walking up to a house. Interesting! You're right, it was Zodiac himself who said he slipped into the Presidio. Whatever happened that night he must've been so close to being caught, could this have scared him for awhile? Do killers get scared enough sometimes to stop completely? Zodiac at least could've lived off notoriety for the next few years alone, which may have fed whatever needs he had.

by Anonymousreply 194Last Monday at 6:44 PM

^by him being seen, I meant a man had been seen, of course, not necessarily the Zodiac but someone who could've been.

by Anonymousreply 195Last Monday at 6:45 PM
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by Anonymousreply 196Last Monday at 8:02 PM

Is the History Channel show available on Hulu or Netlfix?

by Anonymousreply 197Last Monday at 8:14 PM

it's on Youtube for free in 5 parts, R197

by Anonymousreply 198Last Monday at 8:18 PM

[quote]I might as well spoil myself with that History Channel documentary -- do they rule out Ross Sullivan?

No, they rule out Arthur Leigh Allen. They think the killer is Ross Sullivan.

by Anonymousreply 199Last Monday at 8:18 PM

R199, thanks. I'm still going to watch the whole series.

Arthur Leigh Allen had always been my guess for the Zodiac, but now I'm curious about this Ross Sullivan fellow.

by Anonymousreply 200Last Tuesday at 12:25 AM

You should be equally curious about Richard Gaikowski, R200.

by Anonymousreply 201Last Tuesday at 6:38 AM

The history channel series makes a compelling case against both Ross Sullivan and Lawrence Kane, until you do additional research and find out how much information was not presented, including Sullivan's alibis for multiple Zodiac killings. He may have killed the woman in Riverside but that doesn't make him Zodiac. Richard Gaikowski is the best suspect in my opinion.

by Anonymousreply 202Last Tuesday at 7:20 AM

R202, Ross obviously killed the woman in Riverside. The facts surrounding that murder were exactly like the Zodiac's other killings in Northern California, where Ross had moved a couple months before those murders took place.

by Anonymousreply 203Last Tuesday at 7:59 AM

Ross Sullivan lived in Santa Cruz. He didn't have an ties to San Francisco or Vallejo

by Anonymousreply 204Last Tuesday at 9:02 AM

Sullivan was 6'2 300lbs at the time of his death from an obesity related heart attack, far larger than he was described by any Z witness or survivor. The photo used in that documentary was from Sullivan's younger years. He has ties to Albany, but so does Larry Kane and Richard Gaikowski. The Sullivan handwriting comparison is compelling as is some of the evidence in the documentary, I'll admit. Sadly, I think we'll never know the truth.

by Anonymousreply 205Last Tuesday at 9:37 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if Kane was definitely responsible for Donna Lass' disappearance. Other than that, I'm not sure.

by Anonymousreply 206Last Tuesday at 4:02 PM

R170 Haha, that is not the point. He almost screamed " I am the Zodiac!!!" by this outfit.

by Anonymousreply 207a day ago

The Zodiac more than likely killed hitchhikers on the highways between SF and LA. His "score" he added to the signature of his comms with police and press is theorized to be representative of many disappearances around that time.

Gaikowsky is the Zodiac killer. His name is in the cipher. He is said to have known Bates and Ferrin, even following Ferrin to Albany when she briefly moved there. Multiple people involved with the case agree it's him.

by Anonymousreply 208a day ago

"Said to have known".....

Translation: there's no evidence he knew them

by Anonymousreply 209a day ago

I think there are still serial killers out there, but they know they can't get away with the kind of famewhoring that the Zodiac and BTK killers pulled. Forensics are better, DNA can be traced, cybertracking can be done if they try to taunt the police, etc.

So I think they've gone underground, while the mass shooters get all the press. If a killer targets the sort of people who aren't missed, or makes sure the bodies are never found, and spreads things around so there aren't multiple killings in the same jurisdiction or state... Nobody will ever put the pieces together.

by Anonymousreply 210a day ago

I think there are still serial killers out there, but they know they can't get away with the kind of famewhoring that the Zodiac and BTK killers pulled. Forensics are better, DNA can be traced, cybertracking can be done if they try to taunt the police, etc.

So I think they've gone underground, while the mass shooters get all the press. If a killer targets the sort of people who aren't missed, or makes sure the bodies are never found, and spreads things around so there aren't multiple killings in the same jurisdiction or state... Nobody will ever put the pieces together.

by Anonymousreply 211a day ago

I always thought officer Richard Hoffman (rh) was creepy.

And the conflicting memories of the two officers on the night of Paul Stine’s murder. One was adamant he perhaps saw the Zodiac but did not stop him; the other saying that that same officer at the time DID tell him they stopped him. Both seemed believable. He said/he said.

by Anonymousreply 212a day ago

Agree with r211

The Long Island series killer is still out there. But, he targeted prostitutes, and nobody cares, except their families.

by Anonymousreply 213a day ago

R213, there have been books and documentaries about LISK so clearly someone cares

Jack the Ripper and the Green River Killer killed prostitutes and they got a ton of media attention

by Anonymousreply 214a day ago

I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.

by Anonymousreply 215a day ago

[quote]Multiple people involved with the case agree it's him.

Some major investigators in the case have looked at him and ruled him out. Plus, he was a counterculture hippie, while the Zodiac seems to be a moralistic rightwinger.

He's an interesting suspect but let's not pretend like there's any consensus here.

by Anonymousreply 21620 hours ago

R209, Paul Stine's sister said she saw Gaikowski at Paul's funeral.

A source who was at Darlene Ferrin's "painting party" said he recognized Gaikowski as someone who had attended.

by Anonymousreply 21720 hours ago

[quote] I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.

Because the first three were presented as mysteries to the public--the newspapers were full of their exploits when they were unknown, and people were terrified of them. Zodiac was never captured, it took years for the Unabomber to be caught, and the Son of sam dominated newspaper headlines during one infamous hot summer.

Kraft got some attention as "the Freeway Killer," but it took until they caught him years after the crimes for anyone to put together the pieces that he had killed people in very different places, and nothing like the attention the first three got. And Corll's killings didn't get much attention until he was caught and all his murders were discovered.

Also, newspapers treated the victims differently. Kraft and Corll largely targeted single boys, many of whom (most) were drifters. The Unabomber mostly went after middle-aged college professors (who are seen as valuable members of society), and Berkowitz and Zodiac went mostly after young middle-class heterosexual couples (likely breeders).

by Anonymousreply 21820 hours ago

"Paul Stine's sister said she saw Gaikowski at Paul's funeral."

And of course there's no way she could be lying or just mistaken. I'm sure she clearly remembers everyone she met 50 years ago

by Anonymousreply 21920 hours ago

R215 The others didn't have a snazzy costume!!

by Anonymousreply 22019 hours ago

I didn't make any judgement on the observation, R219, just noting that there are people who say they saw Gaikowski around Darlene Ferrin.

I'm also R216, before you go off half-cocked and ready to flame again.

by Anonymousreply 22119 hours ago

Some (I can’t remember who) said officer Hoffman was at the painting party, too, but he denied it.

by Anonymousreply 22218 hours ago

Has serious consideration ever been given to the idea that there more than one person acting as the Zodiac killer? Many people now believe that David Berkowtiz was part of a cult and more than one person may have committed the Son of Sam shootings.

by Anonymousreply 22318 hours ago

Only after he's dead, and they're going through his diaries at the trump presidential library;.

by Anonymousreply 22418 hours ago

Serial killers are so boring nowadays

by Anonymousreply 22510 hours ago

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by Anonymousreply 2269 hours ago
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