Gay men of means, what’s the better choice for buying a year-round home and WHY?

Palm Springs. Hands down. Simply because it ain't in that god damned shithole of a state called Florida.

Thread closed.

A little early, but R1 for the win!

R1 has a point. Fla may have its blue area but the whole state is crawling with alligators, which are almost as bad as republicans.

I am weighing the same thing. I've lived on the east coast my whole life. I worry that Palm Springs might feel too isolated but then Florida and storms so... IDK

You ask this every fucking couple of weeks.

Is this what early-onset dementia is like?

Palm Springs is fine except that you need to find somewhere else to go for around four months when it's oppressively hot and a lot of things are shut down. If you're "of means" you can travel or rent a place somewhere cooler.

I like my move to Palm Springs. NO humidity and beautiful scenery and landscaping and not crowded. I would prefer a summer in the desert vs the swamp like conditions of S Florida.

Wilton ManorS, OP.

Palm Springs in the summer averages 105+. Do you really want to live their year round.

Choosing a desert over the beach seems like an odd decision.

There*

anything below 110 degrees I found tolerable in PS, believe it or not.

PS is a dessert, WM is a swamp. PS is about 2 hours from the ocean, WM is about 10 minutes. PS is on a major fault line, WM is in a hurricane zone. PS has zero bugs, WM has Florida bugs. MJ is legal in CA not in FL. The average home price in WM is 500K, the average home price in PS is 4OOk.

Taxes are higher n CA than FL. All things considered I would take Palm Springs.

Look at the states as a whole.

Where would you rather live? Florida or California?

What about Provincetown?

(Genuinely asking. I don’t know how it’s viewed in comparison to PS, WM, FI, etc.)

..and PS is very pedestrian and bike friendly

[quote] Taxes are higher in CA than FL.

Kind of an understatement. CA has the HIGHEST state tax rate in the nation. Florida has ZERO.

I hated fucking Florida and all their shady people. It's like the Wild West. I moved as soon as I could, substandard health care, OP, besides what other posters have said.

These are the choices? Two environmentally unsustainable places that are unlivable in the summer?

To demonstrate how shitty Florida is :

NY and FL have similar sized populations. NY spends the equivalent of the entire FL state budget on Medicaid and healthcare programs. In Fl, huge numbers of people go without medical care and other social services that are free in NYS.

The beaches are lovely, but the state is so awful. And so many people carry guns there/little gun control. Traffic is horrendous and the populace rude and aggressive.

Also Fort Lauderdale beaches are crowded and extremely noisy, with competing groups blasting their music. When I stayed there last winter, I would park at the Hugh Taylor Birch State Park, which is across the street from a strip of beach that is less noisy. Otherwise it was awful.

And so many people carry guns there. Traffic is horrendous and the populace rude and aggressive.

[quote]PS is a dessert

Yum!

[quote] the populace rude and aggressive

Unlike NYC.

R21 We are comparing Fort L to PS, and NYC is not in the mix here. Unfortunately, since you brought up NYC, we can expect a visit from the Native New Yorker troll.

Or YMF, R22.

R19 compared FL to NY, R22.

My two cents. I have two friends who live in Wilton Manors. They are both 6-7 on a scale of 1-10. I know a few people who live in Palm Springs. They are either 9-10, or so old and wealthy, they can buy 9-10s. I suspect that the two areas have very different cultures. This is probably more important than earthquakes vs hurricanes.

I don’t have the option of being so far away in CA. I like Palm Springs - but if I did that I’d be on my own. A lot of retirement is practical things - ability to get around, hospitals, support networks. Neither PS nor WM is ideal for that.

WM seems perfect for the native NY eldergay. There is definitely that harder edge among the eldergays. Lots of old school NYers. Also seems a little more mercenary - like all of FL. Johnson’s strip club is the perfect epitome of WM I think. WM is also ugly - no redeeming natural or architectural beauty. You are in ghetto and going to the beach is an effort - which many don’t bother as they get old.

Losing 10% of your income in PS to CA taxes probably makes the price difference in housing a wash. But the housing in PS is nicer and more abundant.

Have you ever been through a hurricane/ heavy tropical storms? Even if one only "skims" by, you still deal with the fallout. The insurance is high. The types of tourists descending on Florida are the worst. The communities/ neighborhoods have gotten to be YouTube crazy, even if there are still the occasional nice folks around. The bug issue is major.

If those are your only choices, I think Palm Springs is the better option.

if you are a couple and keep you retirement income in check, your taxes in CA aren't that bad. Its a sliding scale there.

R12 pretty much sums it up. I'll add a few more:

1) Airports - both are close, but PS airport is super easy, less than 10 mins with no traffic, and it is beautiful (a lot of it is outside). Downside - prices flying into PS are higher than FLL. There are also fewer directs from the East Coast.

2) You are less than 2 hours from a lot of great choices in SoCal: LA, beaches, skiing in the mountains, San Diego, and Northern Baja Mexico. In Florida, it's all pretty much the same.

3) Crime rates are much much less in PS. Wilton Manors is right next to some bad neighborhoods and there are a lot of shady characters at all times. There are definitely some homeless in PS, but I haven't felt threatened by anyone. I definitely felt I had to watch my back more in Ft. Lauderdale.

4) There are a lot of festivals in PalmSprings during the winter bringing in a lot of different people all the time.

5) SoCal has a niceness factor - people are genuinely nicer. There is also a lot of patience and kindness for older people - my mom lives in PS and was shocked by it - in a good way.

6) Neither are very walkable, so be prepared to have a car.

7) Both are hot in the Summer - neither are fun to be in during July, Aug or Sept. You can escape the heat relatively easily in PS by driving 60-90 mins away. You can't escape FL. Plus those are hurricane months in Florida.

8) Wilton Manors is already being affected by rising sea. Miami beach floods a lot with rain. It could be a real problem in less than 10 years.

9) PS is on the San Andreas faultline. Seriously. Everyone is waiting for the 'big one' - but they've been waiting for decades. It will probably be in the 7 range - which is rough - but not like Japanese earthquakes. Also, there are very few structures in PS over 1 story and some buildings are built for it. The 'big' earthquake will disrupt things for some time, but not like a CAT 4 or CAT 5 hurricane that just erases everything off the map.

10) Because it is touristy and close to LA, I find prices (gas, restaurants) are a big higher in PS. It all depends - I've seen a lot of FtL restaurants increase prices to be on par with NYC tourists.

Last thing - there are quite a few considerations before buying in Palm Springs that can make or break your time there. The North side of the city gets a lot of wind - to the point of aggravation. Also, you need to be mindful of what direction your house faces and how much direct sun you get. Everyone thinks they want Southern exposures, but there's always sun here - you don't need to worry about light. Certain exposures will heat your house and pool up so fast and you'll feel a prisoner indoors. Also, you'll need a swamp cooler which will cool your house at a fraction of the price of AC. (Swamp coolers don't work in FL because of the humidity).

OP, I have no idea where Pam Springs is, but I'd move to Palm Springs, California over Wilted Flowers, Florida.

Neither is ideal, other than you’re generally surrounded by gay friendly people in both. (Not the same as friendly gay people.)

That said, PS’s the middle of nowhere. But, if you can afford to live there, you can afford a second place for when it’s driving you crazy - and that second place will be in a [italic] much [/italic] more desirable nearby location than would be anything in Florida (or Alabama, or . . .)

The best thing about Wilton Manors is the abundance of gay bars within walking distance. It’s a drunk eldergays paradise. No judgment and plenty of options. Because everyone is old, you don’t feel like a fool drinking beer and dancing at Hunters as a 65 year old. It’s like reliving the 90s in NYC - except everyone is 25 years older.

I went to a club down there called The Manor a few years ago. Loved it. It had like a whole restaurant up front and 3-4 different genre rooms on 2 levels, if I remember correctly. I did the “Get Me Bodied” extended mix dance for the last time there. Although a valet crashed someone’s car that night as well. Haha good times.

Anyway, I’d rather live in Palm Springs, if I had to pick.

For me, the fact Palm Springs is on the San Andreas Fault is terrifying to me. When (not if) when the big one hits Palm Springs will be obliterated. Most of everything in a 2-hour radius will be a disaster. I know geologists who will not under any circumstances go to the west coast. I lived through the Northridge quake as a kid and that was scary as fuck.

R34 - obliterated? It's not a nuclear bomb. There are over 20 7.0 earthquakes a year around the world - and people recover. Most structures will not fail. Roads will be fucked up and there will be issues with utility lines and such for awhile. And it doesn't mean it's going to strike right under Palm Springs - it could be anywhere up and down the fault line.

But you know what will obliterate everything? A Cat 4 or Cat 5 Hurricane. And sea surge. And there's a chance it could happen every year - or even get a 3 or a 2 would suck considerably.

I don't think you understand the difference in what a hurricane can do versus an earthquake. Most of the damage in Northridge were for multi-story buildings / freeway overpasses. There aren't many multi-story buildings in PS.

Hurricanes are far far worse - winds and storm remove all protection and there's nowhere to go. Earthquakes you can go outside and buildings will still be there - and you don't have to fear a wall of 15 foot water heading toward you.

OP Definitely Pam Springs.

Geological time is measured in millions - hundreds of millions of years.

When saying CA is "due" for a big one, that could be in 10 million years. Earthquakes over 6.5 are rare in CA. You would need to see a 7 to see devastation.

Large hurricanes occur yearly now. Climate change has led to a longer hurricane season and to stronger storms. I used to visit a friend in the Keys, and they suffered horrible damage a few years ago.

Yearly vs every million years? Seems an easy choice.

Palm Springs temps this week:

Mon (Memorial Day) 105

Tues 110

Wed 112

Thurs 112

Fri 109

Sat 107

Sun 106

OP, there's an ENTIRE PLANET full of AMAZING PLACES TO LIVE, and you've decided that the only places you can tolerate are Wilton Manors or Palm Springs?

Why on earth would you choose either one? You're willing to live in misery just so you can be surrounded by other gay guys who are just like you?

I just don't get it.

Wilton Manors is basically a gay suburb. Everyone lives there - the bartenders, the accountants, the muscle queens, the fleeing snowbirds. It's town where people still do the daily grind.

Palm Springs is a gay destination. It's where the those who have made it elsewhere settle down or have a second home. It's the destination for the grind.

WM - hurricane threats nearly every year, humidity year round, not even on a beach and the traffic to get there is a bitch. Surrounded by arrogant Cubans, Puerto Ricans, and assorted wealthy South Americans who raided and plundered their countries and continue buying their way through life. DeSantis.

PS - maybe one huge earthquake every million years, desert weather that is uneventful, So Cal beaches are a two-three getaway, destination. Surrounded by Mexicans with the sweetest dispositions that makes for great housekeepers and gardeners. Newsom.

R39 - Palm Springs and Wilton Manors have two of the highest percentages of gay people in the US. People want a tolerant or even gay-embracing environment to live out their older years.

Try some straight retirement areas - it's fucking not fun and don't think they're going to be so welcoming to gay people. And many people don't want to retire in other countries where infrastructure, healthcare or language could be a problem.

Count me in as one who wants to live in a place with a vibrant gay community. It is important to me. And it can have a big impact on your quality of life and even healthcare.

This really is about the twentieth time we have had this thread.

Don't know if different people are asking it, or whether Mary OP is afraid of her own shadow and needs a lot of reassuring.

I don't know why people find it surprising that the topic of where gay men should retire is a frequent question on a board with a lot of older gay men.

I'm team Palm Springs, but I will admit the dance clubs and overall bar scene is bigger and better in Wilton Manors.

It's frustrating to me how Hunters can have a location in both and be so different. The DJ at PS Hunters should be fired ASAP. His mix is literally tons of 30 second songs - just as you get into one song, he switches to another. It's awful.

I would love to have some sort of dance venue in PS - and no, the White Party or other festivals don't count.

Wait, how are there no dance clubs in PS?? Is the population really that old?

R41 is spot on.

The word "Florida" is enough. And fuck you, OP, for your crassness and presumption.

I suggest something in central Alabama, where your attitude fits among other people "of means."

R46 - there are a few spots, but they don't use them like they should. Those dancefloors should be packed and they aren't.

One other downside of Palm Springs - there aren't a lot of companies/corporations for jobs. There are only so many service jobs, nurses, and real estate agents needed/available. You'll need to have some money of your own to rely on - in my opinion.

Ft Lauderdale area actually has real jobs - although you may have to commute 30-60 minutes to Miami or Boca.

If one is looking for a retirement community that is gay friendly have you considered Santa Fe, NM?

Another factor is whether you're single or in a couple (partner is a non-deplorable). If you're single, you'll be more sensitive to a political environment. If you have a like-minded partner, there's the two of you dealing with it together (easier). (Palm Springs blue state, Wilton Manors red state.)

Money is another huge factor. Florida has no personal income tax. The sales tax in FL is 6%. CA sales tax is 7.25%, but I believe the CA counties can add to the tax. Whenever I'm the L.A. area, it seems like the sales tax exceeds 8%.

Earthquakes vs. hurricanes ... not sure.

Only The Poors live in Palm Springs year round. Gay men of means leave their home in Palm Springs for their summer home located in a far more temperate climate.

Palm Springs is ghetto. My friend used to have a home there and sold it to move to Maui.

r51 Sales tax in PS is 9.25%. Most of the LA area is >10%.

Florida is a humid, hurricane-trodden cesspool. Palm springs is boring and hot as hell in the summer, unless you don't mind staying inside all the time, or basting in chemo by the pool. I can't imagine being in either place for more than a couple weeks at a time, and certainly not if you have the means to live somewhere truly nice.

We plan to live in Palm Springs from November - May, and upstate NY June-October/November, until the tree colors change

One upside about Wilton Manor is that is where Reno Gold lives.

If you are going to pick a state, CA wins. FL is a third world country. But if you choose FL, there are better neighborhoods to live in than WM.

For those who are earthquake sensitive, they are not a big deal at all. They literally last seconds and 99.8% leave no significant damage.

I've lived in CA my whole life and the only damage I've seen besides slanted frames was in the '89 SF quake and those were Mom's crystal figurines.

People here don't even stop what they're doing for most earthquakes.

OP, I live in Florida and it is miserable. Unless you are a senior who plans on being inside your condo 24/7 with the AC on full blast, find somewhere else to spend your money.

a friend of mine lives in Palm Springs and he said one day the backyard thermometer read 120 and there was a severe drought. But somehow he and his husband have a way of taking three continuous months off from their jobs and they travel east during the summer months. Must be nice to be rich middle aged bears on the scene.

R61 - drought is over and has been for a couple of years. But it is always an issue again eventually - and then it goes away.

There are quite a few PS people who go away for a couple of months in the summer - which speaks to relative wealth I guess. Or, for the people who come to visit you during the winter, you get to hit them back up in the summertime.

Yes - it gets hot - it is the desert. But there are salvageable hours of the day in the summer - before noon and then after 7pm. Not going to say it isn't hot but you can still be active and go outside at some point. Summer in Florida is non-stop grossness.

[quote]One upside about Wilton Manor is that is where Reno Gold lives.

See R8.

Wilton Manor, FL = cockroaches, misquotes, oppressively humid, conservative state, hurricanes, snakes, old gays, too much water

Pam Springs, CA = scorpions, oppressively hot, liberal state, earthquakes, even older gays, too little water

Which do you prefer?

R33 "It had like a whole restaurant"

Wait, like a whole restaurant? or a whole restaurant? Like, which one?

Why do some gays here keep saying you need a car in Palm Springs? One can live in a condo steps from Palm Canyon and walk everywhere. Plus there's the free bus.

I am team PS. I have lived here a bit over two years. Moved here from Phoenix. Live downtown, very close to the base of the mountain. Biking here is spectacular. Great bike lanes, very well laid out. Hiking? You have a 10,000 foot mountain looming over you. I see snow everyday the majority of the year on the top. The larger mountain to the north still has snow. The city is well run, people here are much nicer than the average Phoenician. There are street fairs, and all kinds of things going on all the time. The heat? Just today I turned on the air. But at night it cools down fast. Then probably next week the air will go on for the summer.

Look to have the air on 24/7 from about the first week of June till mid October. It never rains. There are virtually no thunderstorms. No dust storms like Phoenix. The time between mid October and the end of May is paradise.

The housing here is ridiculously overpriced. Rents for apartments are a bit higher than in Phoenix. I am a landscape architect and they build virtually nothing here. It takes forever to go through the process and then the adjacent landowners tie it up forever. So do not expect to see many "new" apartments. The newest ones were built out in the dunes in late 90's.

I really see no downside to living here. I drive to the beach every weekend. Well, not now because of the virus, but it's a quick trip over with a toll thing for the express lanes.

The odd thing is if you are close to the mountain, you will be in shadow very early. That is ok in the summer, but weird in the winter.

You can take the tram up the mountain to escape summer heat. Takes about 15 minutes. You can also drive 45 minutes to get to Idyllwild, much cooler in summer.

r35 I have been through the Northridge Quake and I have been through A few hurricanes in NC. The difference. I know when a hurricane is coming and I can fucking leave. An earthquake? Zero warning and then you deal with aftershocks. When the Northridge quake hit, it was the middle of the night/early am. It felt like a truck hit the house. Everything fell, fridge, the dishwasher became dislodged. every dish in the house fell out and broke. My sister started screaming, our dog came into my room and jumped on my bed scared shitless and my dad screamed at us to get to the front door. We stood in the door jam in the pitch-black night as it sounded like our house was collapsing. My dad got the car out of the garage, we all go in it and sat in the driveway to listen to the radio. It was then we noticed my sister had blood pouring from her foot. She guts it to the bone on a piece of broken glass. My mom was getting hysterical because freeways had collapsed and we had no idea if we could get to a hospital. My dad duct tapped her foot to stop the bleeding. When daylight hit, we went to a neighbor who was a nurse and she stitched her foot up. the aftermath was that our house was declared unlivable, structurally unsound. That was a sub 7.0. I will take a hurricane any day of the week.

Count me with those who think there are better choices out there, but of the two Palm Springs wins hands down. Dry heat is easier to deal with than swamp heat. Fewer problems with pesky bugs and man-eating critters (except at the bars). Make sure you get a place with a swimming pool! As for earthquakes, they do happen -Mostly you won't even notice them. If you're in a building erected after the the 1980s chances are even the "big one" isn't going to do too much damage. A lot of people from PS head down to San Diego in the summer for beaches and night life. Cost of buying a home in PS is much cheaper than many other areas of California, which is one reason why so many people retire there. If you've got money, you might consider the north-coastal parts of San Diego County (Oceanside abuts Camp Pendleton Marine Corps base). Housing is expensive, but the weather is much more mild than the desert.

R69 - try escaping from the southern tip of Florida - the highways become all jammed and people run out of gas. Hotel rooms run out. You're left without power or utilities during the hottest period of the year. There's looting. Your house isn't just structurally unsound - it's not there. All of your possessions are gone.

Sounds like you were young and traumatized - that's understandable. But, outside of a deep cut on your sister's foot and some broken items, you still had your clothes, furniture, car and other items.

Besides, Florida is Hurricane alley and gets many more hurricanes and more powerful ones than NC. It's a very different threat - the waters are much cooler further North and tend to always lose steam. Not saying you don't get any - but it's not comparable to be at the tip of a peninsula with only one way to go and you're still in the potential path of it.

Were they able to secure your house again structurally?

WM proper is ugly - but a great gay bar scene. I think it’s better to live elsewhere near Fort Lauderdale and just Uber to WM for a night out. WM has some really sketchy areas around it and in general has that depressing, desperate, hustler FL vibe. Not a fan of FL - but an easy commute to family in the northeast.

I love the lush gardens around a nice pool in WM

I definitely want a lush tropical garden, with mangos and citrus trees and whatnot. It probably would be irresponsible to attempt such a thing in a desert, i’d feel guilty wasting water like that. So, Florida has that at least. But I don’t like the idea of having the live under a screen because of the swamp bugs either.

Get some good insect repellent and spray the shit out of your garden!

Palm Springs pulls from the aquifer and recharge that aquifer from the Colorado river

R76, Not exactly true. The Central Valley corporate farms and orchards are draining the aquifer faster than it can be replenished. The scarcity of water in Southern CA is a problem that is not going away, and will probably only get worse.

r71 no the insurance company declared it a total loss. The foundation was no longer level in different areas of the room.

I would imagine living in Florida is cheaper overall, including the lack of state taxes.

But, then again, you'd be living in Florida

r77 I don't think you mean the Central Valley farmers. They are on a different aquifer. You might mean the Imperial Valley farmers. (South of PS extending past the Salton Sea all the way to the Mexican border). There's some local water in the aquifer too - it's not all Colorado river water. All the rivers that drain the east side of the mountains when the snow melts (San Jacinto and San Gorgonio) flow into the desert and then sink into the sands, replenishing the aquifer. However, your point is well-taken. Water will always be a limiting factor in PS. Strangely, as saltwater intrusion in Florida gets worse and worse, water will be a limiting factor in Wilton Manors as well.

I fully expect that some day, maybe sooner than later, the vast amount of water that goes to making the miles of golf courses in PS as green as Ireland will be shut off or reduced considerably. It will be interesting to see what happens then - however, they say that golfing as an activity is dying anyway. I'm in favor of low humidity. I lived in Florida for 12 years, and there's a point at which you just get tired of perspiring 24/7. However, neither destination is desirable in summer. Your choices are to bake or to steam. Before the widespread use of AC, people (even the native Americans) did not live in those places year round. Winter and spring are great in both locations. People migrated to more comfortable areas during the summer and if people can afford to be snowbirds, that's a more sensible choice.

R74, OP, wasting water here in the desert? Your miniscule amount to have your tropical paradise would be less that a drop in the bucket here.

Google Earth palm springs an the surrounding areas. Wall to wall turf and pools that get used for three hours a year. So I think having you here would not make a difference in our water budget.

gay men of means?? Thats an old fashioned term if Ive ever heard of one.......... Both places can be fun but both are tacky in some ways right beneath the surface IMO. Wilton Manors houses are mainly cracker boxes. A lot of the mid century stuff in palm springs is not well built. Both places are pretty questionable when it comes to long time thinking/global warming. I lived in Florida for a while and even if you arent agressively political...........the right wing extremism that goes on in state politics wears you down after a while.

R82 by the time one is "of means" you no longer concern yourself with long term thinking. I don't understand the "not well built " claim for MCM in PS. If you mean earthquake proof, you are probably right but otherwise it's hard to build them poorly due to the nature of their structure.

Op like I said before it's miserable in Florida most of year. Unless you plan on being a snowbird just forget about it. Its been rained here in South Florida all weekend. We are in the worst part of the year now May-Sept where its nothing but stifling heat and humidity and torrential downpours every afternoon. And the tropics are already very active so Im sure we will have some bad hurricanes in a couple of months.

Imagine COVID 19 run on the grocery stores for supplies X10. And its even worse now that many supplies will be in lower stock due to COVID.

As a person of once means, but now of not means (I retired and live off investments and social security), I found that you can live very nicely and frugally and comfortably in Palm Springs. I sold my house in Palm Desert two years ago for about 500k and bought a manufactured home (trailer) in Cathedral City for $50K. I've lived in really nice houses, and in squalor and this is my favorite place yet. It's a 55 plus community and I haven't made so many good friends or had so much fun in years. Right now it's about 108, but my patio faces west and is quite lovely in the shade. Even on the worst days of summer the mornings and evenings are lovely. The cliche about "it's a dry" heat is not a cliche but is quite true.

R85 - that's what I've heard about many people living in manufactured home communities. It is definitely a community - neighbors know each other and are close - literally and figuratively.

A lot of people have hang ups about living in a 'trailer' - but it can be a great choice if you get passed your preconceptions. And in PS, that trailer isn't going anywhere - it's not in any danger of tornadoes, storms, hurricanes, etc. Some of the PS manufactured home communities are not cheap.

People know the phrase "it's not the heat, it's the humidity" - but have never lived in heat without humidity. It is different. But today was definitely warm - tied the record.

That being said - I took my mom to Lake Arrowhead for the afternoon today. Took me 90 minutes - it was high 70's there and beautiful. You can escape the heat easily in PS if it is really getting on your nerves.

You can wear leather depends in both. So who cares?

You can only wear leather depends if you are a person of means. We po folk just use old napkins we steal from McDonalds.

Or you can go to IKEA