Sweden's doing it differently

This can only end brilliantly.

Sweden (pop 10 million) Wuflu (25 Mar):

Infected: 2,345

Deaths: 41

Recovered: 16

Sweden Wuflu update:

Infected: 2,526

Deaths: 44

Recovered: 16

Infected today (25 Mar): 240

Deaths today: 8

Headline a month from now: “Every Guy in That Swedish Bar Photo is Dead From Coronavirus”

R4 Speculation means that you have a 50% chance of being right. OR a 50% chance of being WRONG.

Sweden, for all of its Northern European liberal democracy bond fides, is a surprisingly right-wing country. They don’t like foreigners and they recently swung much further to the right than even most Swedes expected. The right, the world over, doesn’t operate on science but on bluster and feeling.

We’ll see how this works out for them.

may be they are trying ti commit suicide

They practically invented social distancing, so this is working out well for them.

And if it does "work out for them" Tone? Sweden returns to your biased, intolerant notions of "progressive"?

R6 - I wouldn't call them 'right-wing' - at ALL. But they've gone from a homogenous country to one with a significant immigration population the last 20 years, so there is some hand-wringing and resentment.

Compared to the US, they are decidedly very left and liberal as a whole. The right-wing here are just so fucking crazy it is hard to compare conservative parties from other countries to Republicans.

"Sweden, for all of its Northern European liberal democracy bond fides, is a surprisingly right-wing country. They don’t like foreigners and they recently swung much further to the right than even most Swedes expected. "

They swung to the right because many Swedes are thoroughly fed up with the problems Muslim immigrants have been creating. Problems the regressive left LOVES to pretend don't exist.

Fucking BULLSHIT! Drumpf should make himself useful and close the border to any incoming Swedes who want to see the sights. Sweden and parts of Northern Europe really have a collective unconscious death wish. First you let in millions of immigrants from wartorn countries without properly vetting immigration, then you put a Pakistani man in charge of your historical society, and now this. Good grief!

[quote]Sweden, for all of its Northern European liberal democracy bond fides, is a surprisingly right-wing country. They don’t like foreigners and they recently swung much further to the right than even most Swedes expected. The right, the world over, doesn’t operate on science but on bluster and feeling.

You know nothing about Sweden.

Isn't the prime minister of Sweden a lefty socialist, r11?

R6 Sweden's leaders are still ultra liberal. It's the people that are being radicalized by Socialist policies. Radicalization can go the other way too, Mr. Woodard.

[quote] [R4] Speculation means that you have a 50% chance of being right. OR a 50% chance of being WRONG

What an idiot you are. Not everything has equal odds

“I speculate that I have a naked man in my bedroom”. Is there a 50/50 chance of that? (Hint: no)

“I speculate that the sun will come up tomorrow “ granted, the odds seem to be getting smaller, but there’s still much more than a 50/50 chance it will

Everyone doing their own thing. Countries not helping one another.

One thing this virus has shown us: the European Union is a joke.

R16 In this case, the odds are equal. You either get it or you don't. Especially in the case of a completely unknown virus.

Smug place. Can’t wait.

Oh nohs!

These beautiful people need to be protected from disease the most!

Sweden's testing out the "herd immunity" theory. Maybe it will yield fewer fatalities per capita. Who knows?

Won’t somebody think of the meatballs??!!!

Will be interesting to see what happens.

I had a dream about the king of Sweden, he gave me things that I was needin'

Sweden supported the Kaiser and the Nazis

Sweden saved 7,500 Jews of Denmark from the Nazis.

They're taking a chance on COVID before they might need an S.O.S.

By the grace of dog we can only hope that it won't be their Waterloo, r27.

R24 is such a Minnie the Moocher.

[quote] [R16] In this case, the odds are equal. You either get it or you don't. Especially in the case of a completely unknown virus

Just because something is binary doesn’t mean it’s 50/50. I may still catch the measles virus or not, but it’s hardly 50/50

[quote]Who’s the idiot?

That would still be you

Are they still encouraging barebacking?

Thank God the ABBA catalogue is firmly in place.

Min fitta stinker.

At this point humans know the consequences. If they die they die.

R30 Lemme guess. You were wanking in the loo during logic and clear thinking classes.

Let R30 be. There's honestly no point. If mammoths wanna sink in tar, let them. Just walk on.

"Wanking" in "the loo"

UKisms are so charming.

r31 This slut definitely is.

[quote]Let [R30] be.

R36 Normally, I wouldn't bother with wanking idiot trolls. But I'm on government-mandated house arrest. Goading the wankers is where it's at. For now.

Ooh, then have at it. If taking down mammoths keeps you sane during COVID then take my spear, honey! I've got a trunk in the back!

They're indeed apparently counting on herd immunity. High cost to pay in deaths... They're deciding to sacrifice many people who won't have access to any hospital care, and who'll die like dogs. After that they'll be pretty much rid of the virus... unless it mutates.

Good luck Sweden... Cold mofos

But at least they got their pints in. I'd imagine a lot of them are doing this as a sort of fuck you to... I don't know? I mean, COVID doesn't really care about their pride, and since they don't care about themselves, COVID will.

Well when your head of government is a brain dead twit who can't walk and chew gum at the same time...

Sweden (pop 10 million) Wuflu (25 Mar):

Deaths: 41

and today >

358 deaths

[quote]Some scientists back the government in not bringing in a lockdown but others fear the nation is blindly heading for a cliff edge.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Maybe they have it right? At least they aren’t all going under financially.

Yeah well Sweden doesn’t have insane fucking Christians who defy government orders not to congregate and they don’t have insane fucking Trumptards who defy government orders not to congregate so they can stick it to the libs and THEY DON’T HAVE INSANE FUCKING TRUMP.

Give them all that and let’s see what they do.

[quote]Wuflu

R44=freeper cunt fuck

[quote] the regressive left

What goob came up with this putdown? It sounds like something a doughy, red faced white flyover douche would scream from his set chair at Fox News.

I’m an old school liberal and am often infuriated by things done by SJWs, but “regressive” is just plain wrong, because the things they want to do don’t go back to some former state of society. It’s not like people asked what “gender you were asking at birth” in the 1920s. That’s modern asshattery.

^^^asked = assigned

Fucking autocorrect

askING = assigned

That one was purely my fault 😄

[quote]They're deciding to sacrifice many people who won't have access to any hospital care, and who'll die like dogs.

Don't they say it's really a horrible death? Slowly, painfully suffocating? It sounds like a nightmare. Who would purposely choose this?

[quote][R44]=freeper cunt fuck

Actually I was quoting someone else an earlier poster and just forgot to put in the quote thing.

But YOU are way worse than what you called me.

[quote] and THEY DON’T HAVE INSANE FUCKING TRUMP.

You deserve him with your FOUL MOUTH.

I am assuming most people who die, at this point, are on respirators so therefore unconscious because of sedation and medically induced paralysis. I also assume if there aren’t respirators patients expected to die are treated palliatively, officially or unofficially, and again there’s a fair amount of sedation going on. At a minimum you’ve got a assume conscious is minimal and the patient is so sick they don’t really know what is going on.

Thank you for the explanation R55. I appreciate your sharing your knowledge.

Maybe Sweden wants to thin out the herd a bit. Government having a hard time staying solvent with burgeoning, generous benefits that'll be unsustainable soon.

R49 I totally agree. When did “the regressive left” become a thing? What does it even mean? Is it just a term that has been mistranslated from whatever Moldovian troll farm these people are posting from? Wanting some semblance of a functioning society is not regressive.

R57 well they’ve been just fine with their “generous benefits” since the end of World War II, so I’m sure they will ride this out too. I know I’d rather be a citizen there than a citizen of Russia, Boris. Work on your English grammar love ,if you want to be believable when being paid by the post.

Eat my ass, frau cunt R54.

R59 Why don't you move to Russia then instead of being triggered by assumptions and accusing anyone of being a paid bot. Work on your reading comprehension, love, if you want to be believable when coming across as not being a cunt. Maybe it's because of people like you that Trump and Trumptards and their worldwide equivalents are in power. Sweden has had to tighten restrictions on the growth of benefits and social services since the late 1990s. The government made it more difficult to claim unemployment and disability benefits on top of other cost-cutting strategies. There, is that grammatical enough for you, love? Or are you one of those grammar cunts? Rhetorical question.

Are you Swedish! Do you know any Swedish people? I do. What are you basing your assertions on? You used several rightwing talking points and used poor grammar so accept my apologies if I misread your post and assumed you are a troll, if you aren’t. I await your clarifications.

Generally? Again, rhetorical question. Does one need to be a cunt or know any cunts to know cuntish behavior? Several rightwing talking points? Making a joke about a country with a heavy social spending burden is now a repug talking point, okay I get the memo now and will readjust my thinking accordingly. Look, I assume you're socially liberal as I am but we have to agree to accept degrees of leftwing-ness. Just because one makes jokes or criticizes certain social welfare components it doesn't make one a Trumptard, get it? Yes to universal healthcare, universal basic income, disability benefits, so on and so forth but no to free college. As for knowing any Swedish people, actually yes, a middle-aged Swedish woman with 2 university degrees attained in Sweden. She came here due to inability to find a job there and because she liked the US so much that she stayed. Really chill lady but don't get her started on the high tax rates in Sweden.

[quote]R20 Oh nohs! These beautiful people need to be protected from disease the most!

But....

Sweden took different route and is now in trouble. 5500 cases. Norway and Finland both want to close or reduce travelers from and to Sweden. ER is struggling and there are only 200 special equipments in Stockholm’s hospitals. It means they have to decide who will get special care. Sweden is taking first steps to isolation but it may be too late. The virus might have spreaded all around already.

Norway has the same number of cases, R65, so that actually bolsters Sweden's route.

Sweden has about twice the population of Norway, so Norway currently has a higher number of both infected people and of deaths. But Sweden is set to go much higher.

Sweden's new infections today: 563

Norway's new infections today: 223

Sweden's deaths today: 50

Norway's deaths today: 9

What I'm not clear on with Sweden's herd immunity strategy is the role of future international travel and immigration. Won't people be re-introducing C19 on a regular basis? Is the plan that all the elderly will be dead at that point and everyone else will hopefully have some immunity?

The cynic in me thinks that Sweden's trying to cull the herd of their dependent citizens.

All this hysteria is preying on the public's ignorance of a the death count of a typical flu season. And the media exacerbates it by finding the one 16-yr. old girl who dies.

[quote] What goob came up with this putdown? It sounds like something a doughy, red faced white flyover douche would scream from his set chair at Fox News.

That would be Maajid Nawaz, a former Jihadist turned Muslim reformer.

r49 The term regressive left was originally popularised by liberals, I am not sure who coined it. It was a criticism of the liberal left ignoring certain regressive values being pushed depending on who was pushing them. Maajid Nawaz (muslim, former extremist) used it to describe the left cosying up to 'Islamism'.

sorry not liberal left - "progressive left"

I have Swedish friends who live outside Stockholm They say they are concerned they are being made "guinea pigs" for the governments herd immunity theory. They were trying to get across the border to Denmark where they have family but Denmark has closed the border and is in lock down. They are self isolating but have to walk their dog. As true Swede stoics they are saying Vad som kommer att bli kommer att bli. (What will be will be)

R69

r69 you are an absolute moron.

Sweden is doing what the US far right has been suggesting.

I've been watching and Sweden's reported cases have grown faster than in its neighboring countries and they've had more deaths. I don't know what other factors might have influenced this but it doesn't particularly look great so far...

let's see how this will play out in a month.

That's bullshit. There isn't such a thing as Sweden.

Norway is in lockdown and we closed our border with Sweden weeks ago, just fyi.

How are things in Norway, Mr. Norwegian?

In the US, the authorities are trying to “flatten the curve”. This means they are trying to have the worst cases spread out over a longer period of time, but with fewer concurrent critical cases. In this way, we won’t have people dying due to inadequate medical capabilities. That’s the immediate goal. Secondarily, the goals are to build herd immunity, and seek a vaccine or effective treatment.

There’s not going to be a vaccine. They’ve been working on one for SARS and MERS, for years, and haven’t found one. That just leaves herd immunity.

If Sweden can handle a large number of cases at the same time, then they’re not doing anything different than what we’re doing in the US, but they may keep their economy going for longer.

In any event, don’t be under the illusion that the US approach is intended in keeping a large percentage of the population from getting infected. It’s the not, not really. It’s just intended to keep overly large numbers from being too sick all at once.

Does it have to do with the inevitability of everyone getting infected at some point?

If we delay the rising numbers, we have more time to find effective treatments.

R82, that's how I understand the lockdown approach in terms of infection. For example, 50 million people are going to be infected in both the herd immunity and isolation approaches. For the former, it's just get it over with and 50 million gets infected in the normal course of life. For the isolation approach, 50 million will be infected but over a 6 month period. This approach may,...may have fewer deaths only because spacing out the number of infected people will mean there are more resources to help the very sickest. Whereas for the herd immunity approach, too many infections at the same time will overwhelm resources to help.

I am isolating because I don't want to be part of the early infected. Maybe if I get infected 5 months later, there will be more data on the virus and treatment and I have much better odds of survival and recovery.

I think so, R83. Aren’t they saying that something like that 60% to 80% will get exposed? It just seems too easily transmissible to not affect less than 80% of the population.

[quote]They swung to the right because many Swedes are thoroughly fed up with the problems Muslim immigrants have been creating. Problems the regressive left LOVES to pretend don't exist.

^^^ Found the rightwing Trump-fucking piece of shit.

équote*They swung to the right because many Swedes are thoroughly fed up with the problems Muslim immigrants have been creating. Problems the regressive left LOVES to pretend don't exist.

That's true throughout Europe.

[quote]They swung to the right because many Swedes are thoroughly fed up with the problems Muslim immigrants have been creating. Problems the regressive left LOVES to pretend don't exist.

That's true throughout Europe.

R87 How do you saw Trumptard in Swedish?

With a sharp blade.

Correct analysis, R85. The posters who are trying to make this a left-right thing are morons.

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And just like that, all the blond blue eyed white people disappeared off the face of the earth.

Sweden's doing it recklessly...

"According to the international statistics had Sweden on Saturday, 37 dead per million inhabitants. The corresponding figures for Denmark, Norway and Finland are 28, 11 and 5."

Great job👍

r95 they're not dying, though.

Unless you're overweight, have another condition, compromised immune system, diabetes, over 60, you probably won't have to go to hospital.

50% of people who get it have no symptoms. I've had a slight dry cough but it recently rained and I think it could be allergies. My lymph nodes feel swollen. The other day my chest hurt but now that not so bad.

Wish I had immunity bracelet already.

Of course it is.

Remember the infamous yellow wrist bands which signified "I do not consent to be raped".

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[quote] Wish I had immunity bracelet already.

What do you mean by this, r98?

They're already regretting it and the king has told everyone to stay home. Expect the number of Covid cases to explode in about a week's time.

Bear in mind that couples should naturally expect to expose each other to the virus, if one gets it. Nobody is saying to start sleeping in separate rooms.

6 Apr 2020

Sweden (pop. 10 mil): Infected - 6,830 Deaths - 401

Norway (pop. 5 Mil): Infected - 5,760 Deaths - 73

Finland (5.5 Mil): Infected - 2,176 Deaths - 28

Denmark (5.6 Mil): Infected: 4,830 Deaths - 187

Iceland (364K): Infected: 1,486 Deaths - 4

Obviously, the main reason there is so much criticism of Sweden is because if their is any success with their method, the other countries are going to look like a bunch of complete idiots locking up their citizens for months for nothing.

Has it been showing success yet, r104?

I haven’t been following the numbers.

That’s not so obvious, r104. Sweden did something different that what every expert is recommending. That’s why there is criticism. And your stats are still meaningless at this time. There are a number of people, though it might just be one person, who doesn’t understand that the things we do now, affect the world we will be living in tomorrow. And if Sweden’s approach doesn’t work out, it will be too late to “fix it”. Most people know better than to bet the farm on “red”. Some do, and it works out, but these same reckless people generally lose out the next time.

R105 I'm comparing both to Sweden's neighbours and countries with similar pops that have locked up their citizens. Just looking at Sweden's neighbours who are all under quarantine, I would expect Sweden's infection rates to be double, triple and more. Which at the moment it isn't

[quote] Sweden did something different that what every expert is recommending.

R106 Please explain how there can be "experts" on a novel, previously-unknown contagion/virus.

Sweden is smart.

Sweden will give themselves the Peace Prize if they bet right!

6 Apr 2020 Update:

Sweden: Infected - 7,206 Deaths: 477

[quote]there is so much criticism of Sweden is because if their is any success

. . .if there is . . ., not their.

R107, you don’t think that Dr. Fauchi is an expert? SARS and MERS are Corona viruses. So, someone who has been studying them for a decade would be a natural to come up to speed on this virus. You know that these “experts” have already sequenced COVID19 DNA, right? Also, people who understand statistics and how virus’ spread would be an expert in that aspect. The virus itself is new, but the way viruses spread is not new. An expert would know when you can extrapolate from knowledge about other viruses, and when you cannot.

A good example of this is when Trump pitches that drug as a cure for the disease based on anecdotal evidence. An expert like Dr. Fauchi understands that it’s bad science to suggest that this is a cure and he corrects Trump at every opportunity. “What have we got to lose?”, Trump asks. An expert will tell him about thalidomide babies, or about how the authorities can lose their reputation and the respect of the public, not to mention all that money spent on medication that doesn’t work. And that people become reckless when they think they've got a cure, and that makes them vulnerable.

I’m surprised at the question, really.

Sweden’s death rate at the moment is disproportionately high, isn’t it? Around a factor of 4 times higher?

[quote]SARS and MERS are Corona viruses.

R112 If this is so, and since there is plenty of definitive medical information about both SARS and MERS, then please explain why half the world is locked up and why everyone is running around in masks and gloves. After all since all three viruses are "the same", and since half the world was NOT locked up when SARS and MERS raged, what's the difference now?

Since this (and every) virus is unique, novel, how can someone "understand how it spreads".

What you meant to say is that "experts" about previous viruses are erroneously using irrelevant models on a virus that they haven't a clue in hell how it behaves and are learning as they go along. That is NOT an "expert".

I'm surprised you wasted so much time on your post.

Sweden's infection rates aren't high compared to their neighbors but their death total is significantly higher. Both as a percentage of the population and the number of infected. What's behind that? Could it be they have many more infected people than the official number of infected cases? Or have a more virulent strain? Could be many more other reasons. But if they have not closed down as much as their neighboring countries, I'm leaning towards the official infected number is way off.

R114, calm the fuck down and quit inserting quotation marks like “the same” around words that r112 never used.

Nations that have experienced previous corona virus epidemics locked COVID-19 down hard. That expertise in both epidemiology and public policy has led to low transmission and low death rates. Look at Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore.

You sound like a low-information Trump voter or the Republican governor of Iowa who has dismissed the expertise of Fauci, who is, indeed, an expert needed desperately at the federal level, where hunches and hopes masquerade as facts.

Enjoy bathing in your ignorance and fuck right off.

Sweden has far more infected than we realize. As everybody has said, a large portion are asymptomatic yet infect others. Sweden will have an explosion of people showing symptoms soon. Their death rates are far above their neighbors.

Also, just because a country is on lockdown does not mean the citizens are observing the lockdown as they should. So comparing Sweden to its locked down neighbors isn't cut and dry.

Having lived in Sweden awhile (I'm American) a few factors here pro and con:

Pro: most Swedes live alone, already keep relatively socially distant, follow 'requests' better than southern Europeans follow police-enforced mandates, and take great steps to hold up their responsibility in the community (it's about the Nordic philosophy of Jantelagen - see photo). So they don't necessarily need a lockdown to lock down.

Con: Swedes are phemomenonally arrogant about their culture and way being superior to all others in the world (also Jantelagen), and will stubbornly dig in to prove this. They also are masters at gaslighting and hiding information. They still can't confront their double-dealing in WWII and the other Nordics hate them for their superiority complex.

I think Lovren and his medical guy Anders Tegnell have fucked this up bigly, but nothing will happen to them because Swedes don't confront.

[quote]Nations that have experienced previous corona virus epidemics locked COVID-19 down hard. That expertise in both epidemiology and public policy has led to low transmission and low death rates. Look at Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore.

R116 No nation was "locked down hard". SARS was no where near as contagious a virus. Worldwide infected - 8,000; deaths - 774. Entire populations of countries were not quarantined, only individuals. Same with MERS. People screened at airports, but no country "locked down hard", again only individuals presenting with symptoms were isolated. Infected worldwide: 2,494, deaths: 858. FYI, MERS and SARS infections are still occurring.

Tantrums and childish name calling does not make your case. It simply highlights your petulance and ignorance.

SARS and MERS are NOT the same as COVID-19, which is a novel highly contagious virus, for which no one as yet has definitive medical knowlege. There are no COVID-19 "experts". There are only a whole lot of speculators and speculation.

[quote] R114: If this is so, and since there is plenty of definitive medical information about both SARS and MERS, then please explain why half the world is locked up and why everyone is running around in masks and gloves

The US experts have deemed this the best means of slowing the spread of the disease in the US to keep it from overwhelming the medical system. I can’t speak to why they are doing this in foreign countries, but I think it’s the same. Also, I was referring to “experts”, not gods. The experts know the most about the disease, not everything about it.

You can wish and hope all you want, but what facts and evidence do you have? We need to bring back classes in logic to high schools.

Thanks, R118, but to whom is that philosophy addressed? To non-Swedish, I imagine?

[quote]What's behind that?

I've understood one reason the virus exploded in Sweden was because it was spread by immigrants returning from Iran where it was already in full swing. The reason the spreading didn't stop was because the government decided to be so lax about restictions.

[quote]Con: Swedes are phemomenonally arrogant about their culture and way being superior to all others in the world (also Jantelagen), and will stubbornly dig in to prove this. They also are masters at gaslighting and hiding information. They still can't confront their double-dealing in WWII and the other Nordics hate them for their superiority complex.

I can attest to that, he he. Sweden's done a lot of things right over the years but there's no denying they truly believe they're like the elves in The Lord of the Rings, ethereal and oh so much better than anyone else. It remains to be seen how their approach ends up working but at this point it feels like the government is deliberately sacrificing people in an attempt to apparently reach the herd immunity. I personally find it totally idiotic since we need a vaccine to properly reach that. Since the vaccine is probably at least at minimum 6-12 months away there's gonna be too many victims to just prove a point. Obviously the virus could mutate into some super-virus tomorrow and wipe us all out so none of this matters, but knowing what we know now restricting people's movement is the best way to stop the spreading.

R119, if we can’t agree on some basic facts, like that Fauchi is an expert on this new Coronavirus, then there is no point in discussing it further. Perhaps we just differ on the definition of “expert”? No matter.

R123 Fauchi is a speculator. Everyone is. Once enough definitive medical evidence is gathered about COVID-19, only THEN does whoever studies it become an "expert".

[quote]Once enough definitive medical evidence is gathered about COVID-19, only THEN does whoever studies it become an "expert".

Wwwwhhhaaattt?

[quote]Fauchi is a speculator.

Yeah, all those years of schooling and decades of practice...he's just a mere speculator. Equal to any opinionated shmoe on Facebook.

R119: Rejection of knowledge and expertise is a hallmark of the current administration and its followers.

There is no alternative to reacting to this other than calling it out. R119, you are fucking stupid and you love it.

It’s less name calling or petulance (and holy fuck, have you got prissy petulance down to an art at r114!) and more about confronting misinformation and disinformation aggressively and without apology.

Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore absolutely have COVID-19 locked down, as in highly controlled. There are now hundreds of articles showcasing how they did it - and how they were ready thanks to previous experience with a coronavirus. Not this coronavirus, but a coronavirus in the same family. You insist we think they are the same, even putting quotations around “same” when nobody is using the fucking word except you, either because you are gaslighting or your reading comprehension is very poor. Or both.

You can scoff at facts with the arrogance and ignorance of the president while misrepresenting other people’s words and dismissing the smartest people in the room like Fauci. It doesn’t make you right, but it does place you in the company you deserve.

I won’t bother engaging with you again.

Jantelagen, eh?

I knew there was a reason the Nordics were so much fun.

[quote]You can scoff at facts with the arrogance and ignorance

R127You haven't provided "facts". You've provided petulance, arrogance, childish name calling and lunacy, somehow convoluting a discussion about what constitutes an "expert" and the huge difference between SARS, MERS and COVID-19 into a diatribe about Trump. Which is obviously the method to your madness. Since the more I dispute your "facts", the madder you become, resorting to ad hominem. Which any intelligent individual knows is the last resort of those who have lost the discussion.

R129, because your writing is convoluted and unreasonable.

[quote] R127: Rejection of knowledge and expertise is a hallmark of the current administration and its followers.

True. Trump has tried to discredit the courts, the media, the governors, the medical experts, the Congress, ... he’s an abomination. When will people learn - it’s HIM!

r129, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

There are no experts on the novel coronavirus! No epidemiologists who have devoted their life to studying how viruses spread! All prior knowledge is wholly irrelevant!

Them's the facts, mate! Nobody knows anything when it comes to this thing! My uncle Freddy is just as qualified as Dr. Fauci, and he's got all sorts of ideas about this thing! All sorts!

And those Asian countries that experienced MERS and SARS epidemics and then brought C19 to a near halt almost instantly did it by blind luck! Not by following recommending procedures following previous coronavirus epidemics: halting travel, mandating quarantines, tracking infection pathways, closing schools, distributing masks, mandating health checks, or alerting neighborhoods to new cases!

Them's the facts, mate! It was just blind luck, I tells ya! Nobody'll ever figure out how they figured it out.

And this novel coronavirus, COVID-19, bears no relationship to SARS and MERS, despite similarities right down to genetic composition.

Them's the facts, mate! They're two different animals entirely! Course they all attack the respiratory system in similar ways and can all cause fatality through pneumonia, but that's hardly relevant when they've got different names, you see. It's like saying the chicken pox and singles have something to do with each other! Absolute rubbish!

We're on the same team, you and I. Just stick to your guns and you'll win in the end.

And to add to r131, University of Pittsburgh isn't close to a vaccine because of their study of previous coronaviruses. Pure happenstance. Nope, knowledge of virology is of no help at all!

I hope r131 ain’t married.

I want him.

Well, I hope the front desk clerk at the Stockholm Hilton gets it. Arrogant, rude prick. Die, Swedish Clerk! Die!

I'll just leave this here and then quietly back away....

[quote]We had previous experience on SARS-CoV in 2003 and MERS-CoV in 2014. These two viruses, which are closely related to SARS-CoV-2, teach us that a particular protein, called a spike protein, is important for inducing immunity against the virus. We knew exactly where to fight this new virus,” said co-senior author Andrea Gambotto, associate professor of surgery at the Pitt School of Medicine. “That’s why it’s important to fund vaccine research. You never know where the next pandemic will come from.”

[quote] a particular protein, called a spike protein

Fears of collapsing the health system.

OMG @ R 137

[quote]A head doctor at a major hospital in Sweden says the current approach will “probably end in a historical massacre.”

OMG # 2

[quote]He says healthcare workers at his hospital who have tested positive for the virus but are asymptomatic have been advised to continue working. He asked to remain anonymous because “it is frowned upon to speak of the epidemic or to go against the official vision” but said he felt a need to speak out from an “ethical and medical point of view.”

That’s just crazy R138!

Swedes have a bizarre self-destructive streak.

Seems like this may not have been a good choice.

we should all thank Sweden for being a willing guinea pig.

Yes, thank you, Sweden...

R141, to be fair, everyone’s graph would look the same at this point.

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Hmmmmmm.

They want to trim the fat off of their welfare dependent population.

Agreed, r11.

Leaders the world over are betraying their countrymen, whether through immigration, environmental destruction, taxation without representation, broken treaties, corrupt elections, and wars.

A pandemic is just an opportunity to them, to profiteer, to impose restrictions, to kill off "useless eaters," to rule by fear.

[quote] I’m an old school liberal and am often infuriated by things done by SJWs, but “regressive” is just plain wrong, because the things they want to do don’t go back to some former state of society. It’s not like people asked what “gender you were asking at birth” in the 1920s. That’s modern asshattery.

Thank you. The misuse of "regression" is one of those things that drives me crazy. Another is the misuse of "reactionary" by idiots who want to say "easily excitable" or something like it.

How's the social isolation going?

We’ll have to wait and see. A few days ago New York posted its lowest death total. Since then it’s been the highest death total to date, every day.

It just keeps going up and up, so a one day drop in a statistic doesn’t mean a heck of a lot right now.

It's not quite accurate that people are carrying on as normal in Sweden. They are well-aware of what's happening all over the world, so lots of people are working from home, security guards at stores are telling people to keep their distance, etc. Definitely not Italy-style lockdown, but definitely not life as usual, either.

Anyone with today’s stats?

This site is very up-to-the-minute with stats.

Sweden has added 466 new cases and 17 new deaths, paltry compared to what is happening in various states in the US.

Most of the rest of Europe is seeing a flattening of the curve, some nations (Italy) more than others (UK), though I don't see numbers posted for either country yet today.

Thank you, r155.

Sweden can do this, because it’s a relatively sparsely populated country. You can go out for a walk and not encounter anyone for miles.

Take a stroll through deepest darkest Malmö these days and see if you don't become a little more "right wing" too.

People who dont understand statistics drive me crazy.

US - population 328 million

Sweden - population 10 million

US deaths from covid - 20,455

Sweden deaths from covid - 887

US deaths from covid as 62.36 per million

Sweden deaths from covid - 88.7 per million

I was waiting for you to show up and put some perspective on this, r159.

Thank you.

COVID deaths in California (pop. 39 million): 651

COVID deaths in Sweden (pop. 10 million): 899

I did not know that the Swedes were so stupid. Pretty country.

Remember, it’s about reaching the herd immunity sooner.

You can expect that there will be a second wave of Covid19 in the fall. All the US is doing is staggering out its deaths so as not to overburden the hospitals. In the fall, the US is going to have to have another lockdown, assuming we’re allowed a break from this in May. Theoretically, Sweden won’t have to worry about lockdown measures during the second wave because there won’t be as many new cases or active cases by that time.

And in the meantime, their economy isn’t trashed.

I'm not buying "herd immunity" from Covid 19 for at least several years. Until then the Swedes have my sympathy and I do not want to visit Sweden or allow Swedes into the United States.

Like all Scandinavians, they’re smug and complacent. They screwed up.

[quote]In the fall, the US is going to have to have another lockdown, assuming we’re allowed a break from this in May.

I keep reading this, but why the Fall? Is it because of the weather, or due to relaxing the social distancing?

Their death rate is about 1 in 11,000 people, which is better then the UK (1 out of 7,700) but worse than the USA (1 out of 17,000).

The British death rate is so high because of the early and disastrous adoption of the so-called “mitigation” strategy, aka herd immunity. That was abandoned but too late — the damage was done.

^^ than

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They have generous welfare system maybe they want people to die so they don't have to pay

Sweden is probably just trying to getvrid of several of their elderly citizens.

No, R170/R171, they aren't trying to kill off their citizens the way Trump does. It's Sweden, for God's sake.

They. Have a pretty strong Nazi Party...same as the USA. The world has not learned it's lesson from Nazis....we put them right in our White House.

[quote]They practically invented social distancing, so this is working out well for them.

I thought that was the Norwegians

Once the orange idiot realizes that Swedes are usually white, he will let them in by the plane load.

Once the orange idiot realizes that Swedes are usually white, he will let them in by the plane load.

[quote]They have generous welfare system maybe they want people to die so they don't have to pay

They cynic in me has thought this as well.

Even stupider than the UK and US, but not quite to Brazil levels of idiocy yet.

r26

But Denmark under occupation had to bring them to Sweden, where they risked deportation at will.

Sweden did nothing to help.

Sweden is doing it right and their economy will not suffer as hard as other countries who stupidly chose to shut down the country completely.

r180 is willing to kill 25-30% more Americans so his 401K doesn't take such a big hit. It's too bad we couldn't make sure he was one of them.

A far right, Fascist party has control of Sweden. The people are scared there too. Just like the Americans and the Brits.

[quote] Theoretically, Sweden won’t have to worry about lockdown measures during the second wave because there won’t be as many new cases or active cases by that time.

But what about when all these people—now, today—get sick and overrun the hospitals?

R182, the largest party are the Socialist Democrats and the prime minister is a Social Democrat.

R180, Sweden's economy is going to be even worse hit. Even though most things are still open, the politicians are still telling people to self-isolate if they have symptoms and to avoid crowds. Business activity has plummetted in Sweden, many small businesses are struggling to stay afloat. What is really bad for them is that unlike in countries where the government ordered businesses to close and people to stay indoors, the Swedish goverment cannot be held liable to provide any support to those businesses or people who've lost their jobs. Either the Swedish goverment coughs up and provides assistance or it will have a shattered economy.

The Swedish goverment is providing a 455 million euro bailout for airlines that operate in Sweden, so not locking down hasn't saved its economy much.

R183, the whole herd immunity idea is bullshit. It's best just to lockdown completely asap and from that point start to gradually open up again than to try to keep things open for as long as possible and close down different parts of the economy and society as the risk appears to be spreading because they will still end up having to do a complete lockdown while in the meantime the virus has been allowed to spread even further throughout the population. The UK tried this and it did not work out well.

reply 181, I am not an american. I am from Denmark, Scandinavia. We have completely shut down our country and more and more Danes are questioning if this is the right strategy and looking towards Sweden and their way of tackling this health crises. Our basic human rights such as freedom of movement, our right to earn a living and our right to travel abroad to meet family members and love ones have been taken away from us. It is scary to think how easy it is to take away our basic freedom. Remember Scandinavian countries are not 3rd world countries like the USA in terms of healthcare. This is one of the reasons why Sweden, rightfully, have chosen their strategy. The ones who were infected with corona and died had comorbidities and would have soon been dead anyway. In Denmark the median age of people who was infected with the coronavirus and died was around 80 years old and they had comorbidities. Our green curve was and still is so flat it is ridiculous to continue shutting down our country. It will cost us greatly for MANY years to come and for what? To save a few old men who already have one foot in the grave?

[quote]In the fall, the US is going to have to have another lockdown

You will NOT stop my little Madysyn from trick-or-treating!

Everyone, even the Swedes, agree that it's "let everything go on as normal" approach was a terrible mistake.

Denmark sounds lovely.

Idiot @ [r188] You know nothing about Sweden or the Swedes.

Or grammar, r190.

[quote] Everyone, even the Swedes, agree that it's "let everything go on as normal" approach

Oh, dear!

r186, did you think that Italy had third-world health care?

Did you watch the ER doctors and nurses there pleading with the public to stay home as their patients died dry-drowning deaths unattended in hospital hallways?

Are you speaking for the Danes who already have chronic health conditions or are over the age of 60?

It'd odd to see the Darwinism sprout up when times get tough. It's what the Trumpers are trumpeting about, but I didn't anticipate it in Scandinavia. I guess there is a bleak practicality that may be true. And it seems an indefinite wait for a vaccine or a treatment is more than many people can bear in terms of self-sacrifice.

Go on out and have that coffee. Grandpa would be dead in ten or fifteen years anyway.

I wonder how people will regard these different stances in years to come.

Sweden - latest:

[quote]Karolinska hospital has issued guidelines to doctors indicating that patients 80 years old and above would not be admitted into intensive care units, nor those between 60 and 80 with pre-existing conditions.

and

[quote]Dr Cecilia Soderberg Naucler, an expert in microbial pathogenesis at the Karolinska Institute, believes this trust is unfounded and will soon break. [bold“I’m a scientist, I only trust data and the data says we are heading for catastrophe. We are now part of an experiment without informed consent.”[/bold]

I guess time will tell.

Link @ R194 because Independent.

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"did you think that Italy had third-world health care?"

Yes, Italy and Spain are famously known for having bad health care systems. Also, in both Italy and Spain, every death that occurred during the pandemic is/was registered as due to COVID-19. Regardless if the person was dying from lung cancer, heart attack, or diabetes etc. If they were infected with the coronavirus, COVID-19 is what they are registered to have died of.

People like you do not accept facts but are merely driven by emotions. Less emotions and more facts, please!

You can use google translate to translate the article by Måns Rosén, Professor in Epidemiology and the former head of the Swedish SBU.

"Det är inte heller säkert att de som blivit smittade av coronavirus dog av det. Många kanske dog av sina allvarliga kroniska sjukdomar.... Samtidigt tror jag att vi kommer att få väldigt många extra dödsfall på sikt, men kanske inte beroende på corona utan beroende på att hysterin och åtgärderna skapar stora ekonomiska problem. Ökad arbetslöshet, sämre ekonomi, oro med mera kan komma att få mer långsiktiga negativa effekter på hälsan än corona."

Google translate:

"It is also not certain that those who have been infected with coronaviruses died of it. Many may have died of their serious chronic illnesses .... At the same time, I think we will have a lot of extra deaths in the long run, but maybe not because of the corona but because hysteria and measures create major financial problems. Increased unemployment, poorer finances, worries and more may have more long-term negative effects on health than corona. "

[quote] To save a few old men who already have one foot in the grave?

I don't know...you sound a lot like an American Republican.

And isn't amazing how they decried Obamacare as having death panels when it didn't...yet they have decided now that our elders are expendable?

Ah, to be complete and utter hypocrites like Republicans!

[quote]And isn't it amazing how they decried Obamacare as having death panels when it didn't...yet they have decided now that our elders are expendable? Ah, to be complete and utter hypocrites like Republicans!

"Herd immunity" is a hoax.

Why else would we still need flu shots? Because, after centuries, we have no "herd immunity." We get shots, or we don't get exposed, or we get a mild case, or we die.

But first we get the vaccination.

R186, May you live long enough to be sent to an early grave based on a bureaucratic decision.

[quote]Remember Scandinavian countries are not 3rd world countries like the USA in terms of healthcare.

We may not have Scandinavian healthcare, but at least we didn't choose older people to take one for the team and die.

R181, it’s not killing 25-30% more Americans. Maybe from Coronavirus, but there will be far less deaths than there would be in another Depression.

[quote]Yes, Italy and Spain are famously known for having bad health care systems.

You don't know what you're talking about.

You know, after read the posts from the Dane and the translation from the Swedish paper...the United States doesn't look so bad in comparison.

[quote]"Herd immunity" is a hoax. Why else would we still need flu shots? Because, after centuries, we have no "herd immunity." We get shots, or we don't get exposed, or we get a mild case, or we die.

You get flu shots for the current strain. They don't always work as it's a guessing game. Flu strains mutate constantly so there is no one shot fits all. Herd immunity works for annual strains otherwise people would be sick all year round as only the elderly tend to take flu jabs.

[quote] but there will be far less deaths

Oh, dear.

I can't believe they are not helping the older people...that is just so fucking disgusting...the amount of taxes they have paid and contributions to society...

[quote] there will be far less deaths than there would be in another Depression.

You can't possibly know that.

And you don't know the difference between less and fewer. (Tip of the hat to r206 who beat me to it.)

R199 Science denier.

R11, I know it's been a while, but I have to know, did you mean to prove R6 's point? Inquiring minds want to know.

It's a race to the bottom between Brazil, Mississippi, and Sweden.

[quote]It's a race to the bottom between Brazil, Mississippi, and Sweden.

Meanwhile, NYC beats them all.

R212 Found the deplorable

It's weird how the Trumpers are obsessed with how terrible Scandinavian countries are.

They should come onto DL and find their kindred Scandinavian spirits.

Or spirit. I can't tell if our death-panel Dane is just the one voice.

[quote] R186: Our basic human rights such as freedom of movement, our right to earn a living and our right to travel abroad to meet family members and love ones have been taken away from us.

You have a right to die prematurely, too.

The US is doing shutdowns primarily to “flatten the curve”, i.e., spread out the number of sick and dying so that it doesn’t overwhelm the medical system, because that would result in people who would survive with proper medical care, dying from lack of care. This includes people in accidents or with acute medical problems unrelated to the virus, but who couldn’t get proper treatment.

Once we are past that problem, then we might look at trying to delay infection for some people until after a vaccine is available, or relying on herd immunity. I live in a city, so don’t expect to remain negative that long.

No, as for the idea that Sweden’s businesses and economy are somehow in significantly better shape from their approach, I can’t imagine that they’ll remain unscathed. Their employees are getting sick, their customers are getting sick.

Basically, Sweden will lose a lot of people unnecessarily, and their businesses may say solvent for a short while longer. That’s the trade-off.

[quote]You have a right to die prematurely, too.

R215 is part of the scare 'em into submission shock troops. Keep 'em panicked and compliant so they will be far too frightened to start thinking about the fact that their Constitutional rights to movement, assembly, protest and due process have been revoked.

(Pssst R215. It's flu, not bubonic plague. Most people recover.)

20 times more deadly than the flu. Much easier to transmit, too. It’s not the flu.

[quote]It’s not the flu.

It is A flu. Not an automatic death sentence, like HIV was at first. Most people recover.

[quote]I can't believe they are not helping the older people...that is just so fucking disgusting...the amount of taxes they have paid and contributions to society...

Yep, and the ones crowing loudest now about how all the oldsters should be allowed to die off will be the biggest crybabies when it's their turn to be old.

The have innumerable, vocal newcomers to underwrite. They can’t bother with their old.

Maybe they're hoping to thin the herd of the vocal newcomers, hence no quarantine. Maybe that's been the reason all along.

Dissenting voice Peter Hitchens:

That Peter Hitchens guy sure has found his voice lately - he's all over the internets every single day, it seems...ranting.

Well this is all ending in tears for the Swedish.

Peter is the Chris Cuomo of his family. Or maybe the Chris Griffin.

Do you guys realize Swedes tend to be extreme introverts and aren't social butterflies like so many Americans are? They won't be that badly hit.

Do we all agree that even if the government didn’t order businesses to close and people self-quarantine, that the economy would take a hit anyway? Further, if those actions weren’t done early, and we later decided it was the best action, it could well be too late to do so?

I agree, r228.

Movie theatres, buffers, etc. would be decimated. And if it turned out we were wrong, a whole lot (more) people would’ve died unnecessarily.

[quote]a whole lot (more) people would’ve died unnecessarily.

Or not died at all.

Are you suggesting more people died because of quarantining, social distancing, and shutting down?

[quote]Are you suggesting more people died because of quarantining, social distancing, and shutting down?

Nebulous assertions such as "a whole lot (more) people would’ve died unnecessarily" is speculation. They may have died or they may not have. It does serve an agenda, but it's not reality. Also the sole focus on dead, detracts from the fact that most people do recover. Which doesn't serve an agenda either.

Everybody's going to be like "let the old sick people DIE!" if this continues. When you're faced with losing your job and being homeless, you're not really concerned about some 80 year-olds with COPD who'll be dead in a year anyway.

Don’t take part of a quote, r232.

The entire quote was [bold]”And if it turned out we were wrong,[/bold] a whole lot (more) people would’ve died unnecessarily.

Of course it’s speculation. The fuck did you think we were doing here, gazing into our crystal balls and stating facts?

Every other Dane I've heard comment on the lockdown says the complete opposite of what r186 says.

Coronavirus LATEST: Sweden's death toll passes 1,000 as authorities fight to stop spread among elderly

R232, those who have had the coronavirus and recovered will tell you it's the worst thing they've ever experienced and it's vital for everyone to take it seriously. Also, many who get the virus need to be hospitalised, which is why it's essential for the spread to be slowed down via lockdowns and other forms of social distancing so hospitals don't get inundated all at once.

I have 4 friends who have it...3 mild and one on a vent for 2 weeks. The one on the vent is older - 71. He was the one acting invincible and he brought it home to his husband who had a very mild case.

R237 There are far more people who have had the virus who did not suffer from lung damage, did not feel it was "the worst thing in their lives", did not require hospitalisation. And most people recover.

R237 There are far more people who have had the virus who did not suffer from lung damage, did not feel it was "the worst thing in their lives", did not require hospitalisation. And most people recover.

[quote]Everybody's going to be like "let the old sick people DIE!" if this continues. When you're faced with losing your job and being homeless, you're not really concerned about some 80 year-olds with COPD who'll be dead in a year anyway.

Let's just pack all of us old people on one of those unused cruise ships and send out to the middle of the ocean and sink it. Two birds, one stone.

As if anybody needed a new reason to never set foot on one of those fucking "boats"...

Really r237? How do you know? Were they tested and it was discovered that they had the coronavirus?

^ I mean, r239/r240.

r237 Bullshit. I know 2 nurses and one medical student who got it. They said it was like having a bad case of the flu. All three of them stayed home and didn't need to be hospitalized. The ones who get hospitalized are much older people who already suffers from other illnesses or have substance abuse issues, like smoking. The vast majority of people who get the coronavirus survives it.

Try again, fuckwad.

Didn't your momma tell you it's a sin to lie, r235 ?

Of course you will find Danes who are scared of the coronavirus and think the country should be shut down until there is a vaccine. In Denmark we even have nutcases who believe that 5G causes hangovers, cancer, impotence, and the coronavirus and so on... To this day, 6.511 people have been tested positive for the virus. 380 people are hospitalized. 93 people are in intensive care units. 299 people infected with the coronavirus have died and over 90% of these death are due to comorbidities and the people who died were over the age of 80. There were 6 or 7 death under the age of 50. These young people had serious substance abuse problems so their health was already compromised. The vast majority of people who gets infected with the virus survives. The coronavirus is not a death sentence and it is certainly not the Black death. And remember the average Scandinavian person is far healthier than the average American.

The vast majority of Danish are longing to get back to normal life and have started to voice out loud their dissatisfaction with how the government is handling this health crises. Today our Primeminister announced that Denmark will start opening up the country again. The curve is completely flatten in Denmark. There is no point in shutting our country down and deny us our basic human rights to live a normal productive life.

[quote]When you're faced with losing your job and being homeless, you're not really concerned about some 80 year-olds with COPD who'll be dead in a year anyway.

Ask yourself why those are the only 2 options to choose from. Who benefits most from pitting citizens against each other?

Bully for Denmark a country of 5M people and a high standard of living. The US is a different story we have a huge wealth gaps and huge poverty levels. The Nordic countries take care of their own. We are far from that here in the US.

r248 the fear of being destitute and homeless is a pretty big motivator.

Oh wait, Russian trolls, right? Of course.

[quote]The Nordic countries take care of their own. We are far from that here in the US.

The Nordic countries were, until relatively recently, ethnically homogeneous. Therein lies all the difference.

r251 = Deplorable Racist!

R250, I am neither Russian, nor a bot/troll. I've been on DL for 10 years.

[quote] To this day, 6.511 people have been tested positive for the virus.

Only a little more than 6 1/2 people?

Was the 1/2 person a dwar...er, I mean little person?

Not sure why people think comparing a tiny country like Sweden to the US makes sense?

Idiot at r247, how many Danes wish Denmark had never gone under lockdown and had instead done the same as Sweden and kept as much as possible open in the hope of achieving herd immunity? Your curve is flat because of the lockdown, your prime minister is trusted because she took decisive measures and immediately ordered a lockdown. Gradually opening up is a good thing, if it is done slowly and carefully. That is very different from what Sweden has done.

Comparing the data between the Nordic countries shows very little difference between Sweden and Denmark in terms of confirmed cases. Iceland and Finland have managed to control the virus without a lockdown. Their strategy was to test! test! test! Denmark failed to do this and chose to lockdown the country. A disastrous strategy economy wise. Sweden will come out of this better than Denmark when this is over.

Sweden hasn't tested that many according to R254

they are mass murdering the elderly...plain and simple. They don't want to pay those benefits.

And they're probably hoping the migrants suck it up, too.

So did the people self quarantine without government demand is my question? Surely swedes altered their behavior publicly? So it's not exactly apples to oranges comparison between shutdown vs. not shutdown.

[quote] R256: Idiot at [R247], how many Danes wish Denmark had never gone under lockdown and had instead done the same as Sweden and kept as much as possible open in the hope of achieving herd immunity?

The above is not a complete thought. You really mean, “...instead done the same as Sweden and kept as much as possible open in the hope of achieving herd immunity among the survivors, after the deaths on innumerable fellow citizens.”

We all are hoping that herd immunity will protect us. You don’t have to kill 3%-4% of the population to get there, though. It’s like burning 4% of the houses down so that the surviving buildings will be less susceptible to a spreading fire. Maybe you’re being brief and not explaining yourself well, but this statement is just idiotic.

Herd immunity is so a dangerous option. 1) We still don't know how long immunity will last 2) Way too many people die in the first wave not to mention second & third waves 3) What long term effects does that virus have on people?

Reckless beyond belief with a virus that is only 4 or so months old. Herd immunity is nothing more than an anti-vaxer's wet dream.

"You don’t have to kill 3%-4% of the population to get there, though. "

This is not an attack on r262

I've read people saying that ~4% of people infected with the coronavirus will die of COVID-19. But that is simply ridiculously wrong. The risk of dying from COVID-19 is 0.1-0.2% lower if you are under 60 years old and 0.1-0.2% higher if you are over 60 years old. It's basic statistics.

Regarding herd immunity. When the low-risk groups build up immunity, they can no longer infect the high-risk groups that are at risk of dying. Immunity will slow down the rate of infection. Also the viruses may die out before a vaccine is ready. It is not the goal of the Swedish government that everyone should be infected with the coronavirus.

Coronavirus Update: Age And Obesity Are Biggest Risk Factors For COVID-19 Hospitalization

The Guardian @guardian · 55s Critics question Swedish approach as coronavirus death toll reaches 1,000

r265 thus the high death rate in the US.

Scientists don’t even know if immunity is a thing. Immunity runs on a very broad spectrum. It is not at all clear if you become immune after you get Covid, and people spouting off as if it’s real are part of the problem. Immunity HAS NOT been proved, so knock it off.

R268 THAT'S why Mt. Sinai in NYC is currently doing blood plasma antibody trials.

R268 And further more immunity for other coronavirus' like those that cause the common cold and SARS only last anywhere from a few weeks to a few years if you are lucky.

This isn't the measles.

[quote]The Guardian @guardian · 55s Critics question Swedish approach as coronavirus death toll reaches 1,000

It's already over 1,200.

Sweden's folly from The Guardian:

Sweden has reported 170 more deaths from Covid-19 in the past 24 hours, bringing the total death toll from the coronavirus in the country to 1,203.

On Wednesday, the Nordic country passed the grim milestone of 1,000 coronavirus deaths, far exceeding the tolls of its nearest neighbours, as scientists continue to question the government’s light-touch approach to the pandemic, writes Jon Henley, the Guardian’s Europe correspondent. The Public Health Agency on Tuesday announced a total death toll of 1,033 from Covid-19, a rate of 101 per million inhabitants compared to 51 in neighbouring Denmark and just 11 in Finland, both of which imposed strict early lockdowns to curb the virus’s spread.

Sweden’s per-million tally is also significantly higher than the 37 recorded in Germany and the comparable US figure of 79 – but remains lower than the UK’s rate of 182 and far below Italy’s 348 and Spain’s 386.

A group of 22 doctors, virologists and researchers on Tuesday criticised the health agency in an op-ed published by Dagens Nyheter newspaper.

“In Sweden, more than 10 times as many people are dying than in our neighbouring country Finland,” the group wrote. “The approach must be changed radically and quickly. As the virus spreads, it is necessary to increase social distance.”

To be fair, it's still too early to judge. It may be that its neighboring countries end up with the same number of deaths over the next few months. In other words, Sweden just took the hit early and all at once instead of spreading it out over several months. That may be an issue if their medical system can't handle it, but if it can, let's see how this turns out longer term. I'm keeping an open mind about it.

[quote] And further more immunity for other coronavirus'

Oh, dear!

R268, that’s what I keep yelling at my TV every time Gov. Cuomo says “we want to get antibody testing. If the antibodies show you’ve had it, you can go back to work.”

No one knows how long you’d be immune, IF you’re immune or whether you can still transmit it during your “immunity.”

It's ludicrous to concentrate on/compare deaths, without taking into account variables of location, age, previous medical conditions. It's far more logical to concentrate on/compare the number of infected, which is not dependent on the location/age/previous medical condition. But deaths what scares the fuck out of people, so it serves its purpose of keeping the masses frightened and compliant. And in Sweden's case, it achieves the on-going agenda to castigate Sweden for having the temerity to "do it differently".

[quote]Sweden just took the hit early and all at once instead of spreading it out over several months. That may be an issue if their medical system can't handle it,

Could this also play a role in the death count? If your hospitals are overrun with patients it’s hard to give each and every one the same level of care.

"Iceland and Finland have managed to control the virus without a lockdown."

Not sure where you're getting your information from r257, but both Iceland and Finland are on lockdown.

Would really suck for the family of the dead in Sweden if a vaccine was developed, r273. That's why the get it over early approach isn't the best. And there are several promising vaccine candidates in the pipeline.

"Sweden's death rate is due to the high proportion of elderly being infected and dying. A total of 1,033 people have died since the outbreak began, including 439 women and 594 men. A total of 909 of the victims were aged above 70 (with 80-89 the biggest age group)."

[quote][R268], that’s what I keep yelling at my TV every time Gov. Cuomo says “we want to get antibody testing. If the antibodies show you’ve had it, you can go back to work.”

They can go back to work but will have to keep testing periodically. We will also have some warning from the Asian countries that are 2 to 3 months ahead if immunity is a short term thing.

R280, no big loss then.

Uh, r280, it's not unique to Sweden. Old people everywhere are dying at higher rates.

[quote] Would really suck for the family of the dead in Sweden if a vaccine was developed, [R273]. That's why the get it over early approach isn't the best. And there are several promising vaccine candidates in the pipeline.

Yeah, and the other reason to avoid getting infected early is that a bit later on there may be a treatment that works effectively, that while short of a cure, helps your body fight the virus and helps you survive. People in the hospital now are experimental subjects for various treatments because this is a health crisis and doctors are desperately trying to save people. They are throwing the kitchen sink at very sick patients, hoping something will work. Later on down the line with a proven protocol, that may be different and better.

Just like they say with cars, you don’t want to get the first model year. Let them work out the kinks first.

Finland is already reopening...

R286, Finland is lifting the roadblocks around the capital of Helsinki.

R186/r247 remind me why I’ve always detested the Nordic countries and their cold, soulless outlooks. Thinking older people are expendable for “the greater good” is why I would never trust their healthcare systems if I were over 60. That how they push conformity over self-expression (look up ‘Law of Jante’ which explains why Scandinavians are so loathe to standing out) is why I chose to move beautiful Southern Europe instead. I wonder if weather plays a part in shaping people’s attitudes?

Meanwhile, in Turkey, they think 93-year-olds deserve treatment as much as anyone else.

R288, you're really fucking naive if you think Turkey has any respect for human life.

Denmark was one of the first countries to go under lockdown. Finland and Norway are under strict lockdown. The only naive Nordic country is Sweden.

Turkey as a beacon of humanitarianism? Fucking really? You can't be serious.

At least the Turks will not force their own grandma to take one for the team.

Sweden's constitution doesn't allow for them to declare a 'State of Emergency' or to restrict movement.

Apparently, the Swedish constitution does not prohibit states of emergency (it would be bizarre if it did) but it does not lay out a way to declare one. I'm also not sure that the constitution prohibits any restriction of movement, which would also be a strange stipuation. The Swedish government actually early on closed some schools and universities. They just never bothered following that up.

We won't know if the Swedish model or the lockdown model was smarter until two years from now, at the earliest. After the first and second waves of Covid have washed over the whole world, we'll see whether overall mortality rates are higher in Sweden than elsewhere.

Until then, this is a very interesting experiment, and serves as a control for the lockdown model.

Sweden is going to be in for a world of hurt if it turns out the 141 people who appear to have the virus again in SK is because of reinfection or reactivation of the virus.

This is why you never want herd immunity as a means to mitigate -- you never know what the future holds with a novel virus.

Correct, R294. It's so odd that someone seem to have a vested interest in proving Sweden is wrong, when they should be hoping Sweden is right.

Sweden is in semi-lockdown. Many things are still open but many things have been banned or closed and most flights have been suspended. Swedes are being encouraged to socially distance and not travel within the country.

Apparently, travel to weekend cottages over the Easter weekend was 90% lower than last year. But it's that 10% that could cause the problem.

LOL @ the idiot r288 The Scandinavian countries have the best healthcare system in the world. We provide the best health care for all our citizens including the elderly, especially in these days. The vulnerable (old people and the sick) are encouraged to self isolate and they do. Had it not been for our healthcare system more people would have died. The Danes are willing to pay 51% in taxes each month for our welfare system (free education incl. university and free healthcare). The healthcare system in the US belongs to the middle ages - it is both inhumane and cruel and probably the reason why so many are dying right now in your country.

Americans would have a revolution before they paid 51% in taxes. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying it would never happen in America.

Don't get too cocky r298, even that idiot state epidemiologist admitted that Sweden has failed its elderly.

[quote]Anders Tegnell, the state epidemiologist, noted this week that the average age of those dying in Sweden was markedly higher than in Norway. “It is not a failure for the overall strategy, but it is a failure to protect our elderly who live in care homes,” he added.

[quote]probably the reason why so many are dying right now in your country.

Not really. It's the same demographic of older people that are dying in the United States. You'd have a point if young people were kicking the bucket at the same rate as the elderly. They're not.

[quote] Correct, [R294]. It's so odd that someone seem to have a vested interest in proving Sweden is wrong, when they should be hoping Sweden is right.

It's not a question of wishing Sweden as a country would fail but wondering how many people have lost their lives just because the government refused to lock down the country. People like you seem to only care about the Swedish government not looking bad while apparently totally trying to forget the people who've died due to the actions of the government.

We obviously have no idea what the world will be like in 12 or 24 months and it's possible all this doesn't matter or we find that Sweden's way was the best way to deal with the situation. Still, people who've lost their loved ones probably would rather have their loved ones alive than have them have died just to prove a vague theory true.

I wouldn't mind some Swedish peen.

It’s clear that Sweden will experience more COVID deaths per capita than its neighbors. Now let’s just see how many Finns, Danes, and Norwegians succumb to the side-effects of social isolation.

I suspect the death toll from stress, alcoholism, violence, etc. will end up being lower. A lot lower.

[quote]LOL @ the idiot [R288] The Scandinavian countries have the best healthcare system in the world.

Not according to W.H.O. rankings r298. I notice Scandinavians, like the British, are prone to falsely proclaiming their healthcare systems to be best when in reality, they’re outperformed by several countries, including many that are much poorer.

2020 rankings have Norway at 11th, Iceland at 15th, Sweden at 23rd, Finland (yes, I know the difference between Scandinavian and Nordic) at 31st and Denmark languishing at 34th; well behind the likes of Colombia, Morocco and Chile, and in the same range as the much less developed Dominica, Costa Rica and Cuba.

Sweden - 13,216 cases and 1,400 deaths

Denmark - 7,268 cases and 336 deaths

Norway - 6,937 cases and 161 deaths

Finland - 3,489 cases and 82 deaths

Iceland - 1,754 cases and 9 deaths

Are swedes litigious? I see a massive lawsuit coming.

Sweden really messed up big time.

R307 not according to this article titled "Sweden got it right, New Jersey failed."

R304, Nordic countries, with their long, dark winters, are well prepared to deal with social isolation and they are no strangers to handling high alcohol consumption.

R308, that news outlet is a Fox outlet And the author worked on the Giuliani’s presidential campaign so... I would take whatever it says with a grain of salt.

[quote]The Scandinavian countries have the best healthcare system in the world.

No you don't. From personal experience, France, Netherlands, and Switzerland are all much better than Scandinavia in Europe. New Zealand and Australia, better. Singapore and Japan, better. You're about as good as the UK and Spain (both of which are patient friendlier) and better than the US, but do you really want to brag about that?

R310 Japan is a disaster zone at the moment. They were in denial with the outbreak of the disease because they were so determined that the games would happen. Thankfully they didn't get too many cases in March. But the virus took off earlier in April and now hospitals simply cannot cope with the rapid numbers. If Japan had taken appropriate steps back in March they would not be in the mess that is unfolding right now. The blew due to their unreasonable obsession that the games would take place no matter what.

The only success stories appear to be Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Australia & New Zealand. Singapore has taken a real thumbing in the last week. Germany & Ireland claim to be on top of it but the figures read differently to me - still hundreds of new cases every day.

Until countries can track and trace every new infection they are essentially fucked. This is were Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand and recently Singapore until it got out of control there but I would expect Singapore to get think back under control in the coming weeks. Germany has a very good chance as well and maybe some of the small countries in Europe but its very very hard on-going work for months, maybe years.

Herd immunity could be a unicorn.

Well, if herd immunity doesn't exist, there's no treatment in sight and no vaccine for 18-24 months, if ever, then we're all fucked, aren't we?

Might as well go out and party, since it's a crap shoot whether you'll die or not. (And if you don't die in this round, you might in the next, because: no immunity).

Screw it, I'm going out -- I won't survive a yearlong lockdown anyway.

R313, stay inside a sec! "No evidence" doesn't mean that the antibodies are useless. It just means that it needs to be studied -- is immunity lifelong, like in chickenpox, do the antibodies do nothing, like with HIV, or something in between? People who recovered from the original SARS had 2-3 years of protection. This video explains it very well.

r314, The WHO may be cautious because there are over 100 people in SK who seemingly have the virus again.

Sweden is probably under reporting its numbers.No way they only have 13k cases. It's probably in the 20k range.

I'm sure the numbers are far greater...in my small ward in DC there are like 300 positive people, it is probably more like 1200.

R316, Sweden only tests if you turn up at a hospital on the point of collapse. It's probably several times more than 20,000.

How many positives there are is a question of how many people you test. Is a country randomly testing big portions of its population, like Iceland and Germany? Or are they only testing people who present with severe symptoms (like Sweden, the US and the UK).

It would actually be a very good sign if many more people turn up positive than are or have been severely ill.

I remember when Sweden and Norway had roughly the same numbers. Now Sweden reports twice as many cases and nearly ten times as many deaths.

R320 And Sweden is do very little testing.

On 18 April Sweden have 13822 cases and 1511 deaths or 150 deaths per 1 milion inhabitants. On 26 March Italy had 80539 cases (1342 per 1M inhabitants) and 8165 deaths or 136 deaths per 1M inhabitants. The day between 26 and 27 March has been the worst for Italy and ever since cases have slowly decreased. So the rising part for Italy lasted 33 days (first case 22 February); Sweden shows the same statistics after 46 days (f.c. 3 March). The whole "Sweden live alone already practice social distancing we are not like you who kiss and hug costantly" made you earn less than 2 weeks at best. Meantime in these days in Sweden the cases double every 13 days and the deaths every 9 days: for the end of April, if you are lucky, the situation will be more or less that of France today, 300 deaths per 1M in.

By most metrics, the best healthcare systems in the world have always been a horserace between France and Italy.

R311, Singapore did a great job with it native population and controlled the outbreak. However it callously ignored its migrant worker population, many of whom live in crowded dormitories. The latest outbreak has been among these groups of migrant workers, most of whom are from poorer countries in South or Southeast Asia.

It's typical of a country where people like to pretend that their high-rises and malls build themselves and that the migrant workers don't exist at all.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

That Tegnall guy really needs to shut his mouth about his herd immunity theory because he's the one that's personally going to get hit with the lawsuits.

Not sure how he can say there are so many people with immunity considering they do so little testing. It's all just estimates based on models that have previously not been proven to be accurate.

Also, if he's actually saying what the Daily Mail is quoting him as saying, about how he's disappointed the UK gave up the herd immunity strategy (thank God we did) and the comments about the economy, then he is going way beyond his remit as the state epidemiologist, where he is supposedly only meant to give scientific advice, to making comments on other countries (thus impacting on Sweden's foreign relations) and economic issues and how they have to be factored into any decision on how to tackle the virus. In other words, he's admitting that the basis of Sweden's decision not to go on a lockdown is political and not medical/scientific and that he, as a supposedly objective scientist, is not giving objective scientific opinion but is trying to play a political game.

Let's hope Sweden gets it right. If they do other countries should follow the Swedish strategy.

Positive anti-body tests does not automatically guarantee immunity. There is definitely no evidence from China or SKorea who first looked into this issue that infected people developed such an immunity or reduced theirs risks or re-infection. In fact, the evidence so far shows the opposite.

Sweden have already got it wrong, r327.

There needs to be a lot more antibody testing. Nobody knows anything. What Sweden is doing is a huge gamble.

Nope, we won't know if Sweden got it wrong yet. But I am hoping they got it right. That would save the world economy for future pandemics.

One reason Swedes are so quick to defend their government's strategy is because their media is apparently pretty much acting like their government isn't doing anything wrong. Unlike elsewhere where every government decision is scrutinized by the media Swedes truly seem to believe they have the best experts making the decisions because their media is telling them so. If it turns out thousands of people lost their lives just because the country followed some wonky science it'll be interesting to see what happens with this lead scientist/economist guy.

BTW, although Sweden is great at presenting themselves as a country of rational and happy blondes they have a history of quite dark segregation practices. Wrong kind of non-Swede people, e.g. the Finns, were scientifically "proven" to be mentally and physically behind in development than the superior Swedes. Obviously this practice ended in the 1950s but it's still lurking behind the attitudes. It's extremely hard for Swedes to admit they're wrong or bested by their neighboring countries, especially Norway or Finland.

All the talk about herd immunity, however there are a couple of fatal flaws with the idea.

1) COVID-19 is a coronavirus. Like other coronavirus' it hasn't mutated which is good. However, something all coronavirus' have in common is that immunity only lasts somewhere between a couple of weeks and two years (if you are lucky). The average time is 10 months. That's why we get those fucking annoying colds every couple of years.

2) Scans have been taken of the lungs of YOUNG people who show NO signs of the virus. Their scans show lungs scarred with the same markings as the older patients in ICU.

3) We don't don't what long term damage catching this virus, even if it doesn't make you remotely sick is but its pretty certain you will NOT gain lifelong immunity based on other coronavirus strains.

4) The various coronavirus strains create antibodies but the way the virus keeps spreading through communities year after year is because its like the antibodies are created to only last a short time.

5) This is different to influenza with mutates all the time and why we need yearly shots to maintain a degree of resistance to it. Two different types of viruses that work in completely different ways.

6) Trying to develop a vaccine for COVID-19 is going to prove very very challenging. Yes, its possible but nobody can really put a time on it. Frankly, we have more hope in the short term of treatments but we'll just have to wait and see wait unfolds.

Herd immunity is wrong on so many levels and don't forget that medical staff are people too. Some of them have underlying medical conditions and even a number of younger health care workers with NO underlying medical conditions have died of COVID-19, probably due to high levels of the virus.

Can the world afford to loss potentially tens of thousands of doctors and nurses around the world. The answer is NO.

Humanity and human decency before the fucking economy any day for me.

Tegnall = Mengele

R333, you’d be taken much more serious if your writing wasn’t riddled with errors.

The plural of Coronavirus is Coronaviruses, not the possessive you made it.

Where is proof of what you allege in Bullet 2 about young peoples’ lungs? Someone keeps spouting on this board that “this virus damages everything!” without any proof whatever.

Third,

[quote] Can the world afford to loss potentially

Oh, dear!

[quote]that's why we get those fucking annoying colds every couple of years.

A cold is caused by a rhinovirus and the flu is caused by the influenza virus.

R335 Sorry I'm a really bad speller and on top of that its very late and I'm tired.

In relation to young peoples lungs I had read some reports out of China in February and recently a report of a 30 year old woman in Iran who was desperate for a coronavirus test but couldn't get one. She wanted the test because a relative that she had been in contact with had died of the virus. As she had no symptoms the doctor couldn't do that for her but because she was so upset and anxious he did a CScan which showed lungs typical of person sick with COVID-19. The young lady had no signs, wasn't sick at all and there have been other cases of this in China.

I had searched for the link to the article but couldn't find it but no doubt as more research goes on in coming months we'll be hearing more about these sorts of this.

R337 Here. I'll just add that Scans are not used to prove one doesn't can COVID-19 but are useful in proving people do have the disease because the markings on the lungs have unique signs.

1540 deaths with ~ 14,000 cases.

Thanks for putting it so clearly, r333. It's obvious that the herd immunity idea is naive and that it isn't simply a case of once you catch it you won't get it again.

I was coming to post the exact same thing, r334. Sweden has its own Josef Mengele who, right now, is their face to the rest of the world.

SARS, also a coronavirus, inexplicably disappeared on its own. That would be our best case scenario with COVID-19.

So much bullshit on this thread.

Sweden may not be doing as well as some, but it's doing a lot better than most of Europe.

And without becoming an economic basket case.

Deaths per 1mil pop:

Belgium - 490

Spain - 437

Italy - 384

France - 296

UK - 237

Netherlands - 215

Switzerland - 160

Sweden - 152

Sweden is 8th in the world in deaths per million, ahead of the US. That's not so great.

[quote]Sweden is 8th in the world in deaths per million, ahead of the US. That's not so great.

No, that's a very, very good result. See post 343.

And without severe mitigation efforts.

What's happening in Belgium? It's always on the top of death rate lists, but you don't hear much about it in the news.

[quote]SARS, also a coronavirus, inexplicably disappeared on its own. That would be our best case scenario with COVID-19.

SARS "disappeared" (it didn't actually) because people who caught it only came infectious to others two days AFTER they started showing symptoms. As we know, SARS-CoV-2 is the opposite (people are VERY infectious before they even appear infected).

The original SARS was more deadly (70% mortality) and people were put into isolation as soon as the showed any symptoms. As a result, the virus wasn't able to transmit to other hosts and the outbreak eventually "died out".

There was a strong evolutionary benefit for the SARS virus to mutate to a less pathogenic variant because it's hosts (us), having survived, were able to pass on its genes to another person, thus flourishing in the population. The current SARS-CoV-2 is perfectly adapted to reproduce by being transmitted to multiple hosts before anyone is even aware of being infected. There is zero evolutionary pressure for it to mutate to a less lethal strain.

[quote] No, that's a very, very good result. See post 343.

No it's really not. Every life lost to this virus is a tragedy. Just because they are not the worst in the world does it mean it's a "very, very good result".

I swear I didn't write "it's". Of course the possessive is "its".

R343/r345 must be one of those Americans who think there are only 10 countries in Europe.

Sweden should be compared with its neighbours and similar-sized European countries, e.g. Denmark, Finland, Norway, Austria, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Czechia, Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, and even larger countries, e.g. Poland, Romania.

r348, yes it really is a very good result. The numbers per capita are not outside of the numbers per capita of the countries which have locked down for mitigation.

And, Sweden has significantly gained towards herd immunity as well, which is something the lock down countries are far from achieving as yet.

Unless the number change drastically, it's an extremely good result. And no destroyed Swedish economy, with none of the suicides and untreated cancer deaths that would accompany that scenario.

A very good result.

R350 must be one of those Americans who think there are only 10 countries in Europe.

Dear, I lived in Europe for over 30 years of my life.

The fact is Sweden is doing better than most European countries.

[quote] must be one of those Americans who think there are only 10 countries in Europe.

Dear, I lived in Europe for over 30 years of my life.

The fact is Sweden is doing better than most European countries.

[quote]And, Sweden has significantly gained towards herd immunity as well,

This remains to be an unproven theory with this particular virus.

The mortality rate is running at about 10%.

R355, that cannot be correct. I've seen a figure of around 2%, and it could be much lower after antibody tests reveal people who had it without even knowing it.

Sweden should be compared with its neighbours and similar-sized European countries, e.g. Denmark, Finland, Norway

Exactly. Denmark, Finland, Norway have done far better than Sweden

Exactly r351 and if there is a second or third wave (as there seems to be coming) countries like Denmark would have a higher death rate than Sweden because they haven't reached herd immunity. Denmark is now opening up, and without officially mentioning 'herd immunity', because it is a sensitive subject especially for the crazy science deniers, this is what Denmark's new strategy is.

Sweden is gambling with people lives.

^^ people's

I think it might be time I got off the internet for a while.

R357 Is that a good comparison though? The countries you mentioned are smaller than Sweden with around half of Sweden's population.

[quote]Denmark is now opening up, and without officially mentioning 'herd immunity', because it is a sensitive subject especially for the crazy science deniers, this is what Denmark's new strategy is.

Funny you mention that.

I was speaking the other day with a Danish friend who lives in Copenhagen. She told me that the reason schools are opening is to build up herd immunity. She said: " Children with then go home and infect their parents".

Obviously it's a sensitive subject. But that's the strategy.

"As of 19 April 2020, there were 14,385 confirmed cases, of which 1,079 received intensive care, and 1,540 deaths related to the newly found virus in Sweden, with Stockholm County being the most affected."

R356 In Sweden the mortality rate is 10.7%.

r362 Yep, and even though most people know what is going on, the words 'herd immunity' is not something that is spoken out loud here in Denmark.

[quote]R357 Is that a good comparison though? The countries you mentioned are smaller than Sweden with around half of Sweden's population.

I'm not R357, but I just did a little tabulating for the sake of comparison.

Sweden has a population of 10.23 million, with an infection total of 14,385 and a death total of 1,540.

Norway, Denmark & Finland have a combined population of 16.3 million, with an infection total of 18,245 and a death total of 614.

Make of that what you will.

Denmark has half the population of Sweden with a total death of 355 due to complications of COVID-19. I think Sweden also counts death in care homes for the elderly. Denmark don't, they only count the death occurring in hospitals.

So many poor decisions

If herd immunity really is a thing, shouldn’t Northern Italy, particularly Lombardy, have it by now?

Herd immunity just means the vulnerable all die.

The current mentality, seemingly.

Claims that Sweden’s is a deliberate strategy to wipe out the elderly And vulnerable. This Tegnell guy could be one of the most evil people on the planet.

Yeah R372 the old and vulnerable suck up all the resources under our welfare state. This is a correction.

Tegnell is the new Chemical Ali.

Denmark is opening up like every country in Europe and beyond is starting to think of opening up. Since Denmark was one of the first in the world to go on lockdown, they are also one of the first in the world to open up. Nothing to do with "herd immunity", especially since there are implementing strict social distancing practices in schools too. It's not as though they're opening the border with Sweden.

Someone above said that Denmark's figures are artificially low because, unlike Sweden, in the opinion of that poster Denmark does not include deaths in care homes in their figures. That's not true - Denmark includes all deaths where the deceased died with coronavirus, including in care homes and elsewhere in the community, in their official figures.

Well R375, the government of Denmark can't continue to pay everyone's wages for much longer, I imagine. They have to slowly re-open the country sooner rather than later.

R367, Denmark includes all deaths from coronavirus, including care home deaths.

R375, Denmark and other countries will open up gradually and safely. It would cost the government more to open up too quickly, thus causing more infections and deaths and thereby being liable for financial claims.

For those who think Denmark is secretly trying to achieve herd immunity and that's why they're gradually opening up, the Danish government is now testing everyone who has symptoms in order to "stop the chains of infection", which is hardly what they would do if they were secretly trying to get the virus to spread as much as possible.

Denmark starts testing everyone with symptoms for coronavirus

20 April 2020

Denmark will now test anyone with respiratory symptoms for coronavirus, with the country setting testing centres in tents in towns and cities across the country.

"Call if you have symptoms. Then we can test and then we can stop the chains of infection," Health Minister Magnus Heunicke said at a press conference on Monday afternoon.

"If you have dry cough, breathing problems, call your doctor. Or call the doctor if it is outside working hours. Then you will be visited to have a test."

White tents marked 'Covid-19 Test Centre' began springing up over the weekend in all of the country's major cities, but the authorities have refused to explain what they are for.

On Monday Heunicke announced that the tents would be used for carrying out a massively increased testing program.

"The white tents are part of our test strategy, which in turn is linked to the reopening of Denmark," he said. "As of today, we are performing pilot tests. We're doing tests right now."

"We have really worked hard to build up test capacity. Now it's there, he said. "People with symptoms just have to call and they can be tested."

This NYTimes piece is in the "Opinion" section of the paper, but it is really one of the 2 or 3 most interesting articles I've read on the science about Covid-19. An ER doctor is explaining what they have learned about how the virus attacks the lungs, and why death from it can be so sudden. Read it.

[quote]"Call if you have symptoms. Then we can test and then we can stop the chains of infection,"

That's the give-away: "if you have symptoms."-

Denmark is NOT testing everybody.

The hope is to build herd immunity.

R237 - about 80% who get it will have mild to moderate symptoms. Many may not know they have it had it. Of the 20% with severe symptoms, about 5% will require hospitalization. Those were the figures thrown around by most news sources, so I assume they're WHO numbers or something.

If they only test u if u have symptoms it’s already too late

Yeah but a high percentage of infected don't have symptoms.....or that people are most contagious a day or two before they show symptoms.

They're contagious 3 days before symptoms is what I've seen doctors saying.

So Sweden has deliberately bumped off its olds? How utilitarian.

R380, no country can test every single inhabitant and no country is attempting to. According to your logic, every country is therefore attempting herd immunity.

Testing everyone who has symptoms is a massive increase in the number of tests in Denmark and puts it ahead of almost every other country. Trying to stop the chain of infection is the opposite to herd immunity. Testing everyone who has symptoms also does not mean not testing those who don't have symptoms but who need to be tested for various reasons.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

yeah, shucks, sweden. it's more subtle that this article portrays, sweden has indeed a lower population density than other euro-zone countries, but they clearly bet on the wrong horse

r388 not entirely. That could've worked if they would've tested broadly & quarantined specifically.

No one here (Canada) has the balls to enforce a quarantine, they just declare states of emergency and scold everyone. In practice, that means the upper & lower parts of society ignore it, & the middle bear the brunt, which we're already doing with everything else. Meanwhile, they stopped giving the technical numbers on the virus long ago, which doesn't bode well for the fall.

The Swedes are still refusing to admit they fucked up. The prospect must be too much to fathom.

It looks like it may be working out for them. High initial spike but short duration.

It does seem like NOBODY knows anything about this virus and everyone is just throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Since they lowballed their numbers, their infection numbers are probably in the 50k, who knows how many deaths.

R391 obviously hasn't seen today's figures yet.

According to Norwegian news experts say the pandemic might be over by summer. I think they were talking about Norway though, don't know if this is true for all countries. But things are slowly changing. They are starting to re-open stores and schools here. We will see if we get more cases, or if the re-opening of society has been successful.

[quote]They are starting to re-open stores and schools here.

& your weather, Norgie? Spring here in London this year, has been blissful - while everything else has been the opposite.

R396 The weather has been amazing. Sunny and warm, almost 20 degrees. It hasn't rained in weeks so it's very dry. We have forest fire warnings.

[quote]The Swedes are still refusing to admit they fucked up.

And they never do.

Coronavirus pandemic 'will cause famine of biblical proportions':

R399 - this is The Swedish Channel.

Maybe you could post your link somewhere else.

News experts, R395? Not health researchers or experts?

Today 682 cases and 172 deaths. Sunday i had said that for the end of April they could have had 300 death for 1 milion inhabitants with the doubling of the deceased every 13 days. Clearly it is not slowing down nor could it have, given that both Lombardy and New York show a mortality rate of 1200 for 1 M. inhabitants. Sweden still has a long way ahead, can that Tegnell guy read his number or is he a moron?

^^And the 'Norwegian experts' don't get to predict an end of the pandemic just for Norway. Air, train, and car travel mean that everybody is in the same boat together, as far as this disease goes. If commerce resumes, the virus starts spreading rapidly again.

Air travel has been shut down all over Europe, r403, and with borders closed, cars and trains can only travel within their own countries.

And for those bemoaning that the elderly are "bearing the brunt" of Sweden's policy, remember that with schools shut, parents and young people in the gig economy out of work, and the economy well into the greatest depression in at leas 80 years while states jack up their debts to try to stay afloat, it is the young who are bearing (and will continue to bear for many years) the brunt of the shutdown meaures.

I know DL hates children, but we hate elders even more around here, so that "oh, the poor olds" argument is beyond specious.

Funny how we hear both how we "hate olds" and at the same time we're told constantly about how old DL is, and how we're all 70+.

[quote]afloat, it is the young who are bearing (and will continue to bear for many years) the brunt of the shutdown meaures.

Death or austerity. Death or austerity. Hmmm, wonder which has a more lasting impact? My heart bleeds for you, r404, such a terrible burden you have for not dying or suffering through the lasting effects of this illness..

[Quote] I know DL hates children, but we hate elders even more around here

NO. Kids are hated the most here { actually it's their parents } but you knew that, hon. Unless you're a fat ass housecow or houseoaf.

Well, hated for other reasons or not, children are CESSPOOLS of communicable diseases.

[quote]NO. Kids are hated the most here

Except on threads about vile child predators.

And another thing about kids: I have several friends who have teenagers, and I'm staying in an apartment with big picture windows facing 2 streets outside. I see these teens slinking away from home on foot *every day* - they're going to meet up with their friends. There is no doubt about it. So, as far as social distancing is concerned, I'm not socializing in any way with anybody I know who has kids living in their house. It's just not safe. Youngsters can't remain isolated from their peers.

Sweden is not the US. Neither is New Zealand. Both opposite ends. New York may not be representative of the US as far as how this can spread but seeing how fast it spread in those meat packing plants, we are nuts to risk this virus going wild.

Opening schools should be the last thing to do. Hundreds and thousands of people in one building then going home to potentially spread to their parents/grandparents is a recipe for disaster. One school getting infected like one of those meat packing plants would be a disaster. Subs wouldn't show up for teachers. Teachers/students who have underlying health conditions would be at risk and you would have to provide those students with an alternative education. Schools could and should be closed, sadly, for up to a year or more.

Such arrogant, smug airheads. Zero humility.

[quote] News experts, [R395]? Not health researchers or experts?

R401 How about this:

[quote] According to Norwegian news: experts say the pandemic might be over by summer.

or

[quote] According to Norwegian news, experts say the pandemic might be over by summer.

Isn't it obvious that R395 didn't mean "news experts"?

No, R413. So go fuck yourself.

[quote] Isn't it obvious that [R395] didn't mean "news experts"?

Yes it is.

Yes it is. +1

Not looking good.

Say more, R417.

Sweden's curve on the Johns Hopkins site is steeper than its neighbours'.

Dr Mengele starting to admit the deaths are "more than expected".

It will be awful for him if Sweden turns into a disaster zone.

If?

And what about the Swedes themselves? Such sheep.

So many posters here wanting Sweden to fail. Ask yourself why.

Not wanting Swedish efforts to be used as propaganda is not the same as wanting them to fail.

Nobody wants them to fail. We’re simply following what happens when one country in the world disregards everything most other countries are doing on the advice of medical professionals.

Sweden doesn't fair well compared to it's neighbors but it's still doing better than many other Euro countries....and with no devastating lockdown.

It depends on who you want to compare them with.

If you compare them with Belgium a country with a similar sized population.

Belgium deaths per 1mil: 612

Sweden deaths per 1mil: 217

Instead of criticizing Sweden perhaps we should be wondering why other Euro countries with the most severe lockdown measures have such high death rates.

Correct, R427.

Has Sweden released the ages of the victims? Are they mostly elderly? What's their socioeconomic situation?

I spoke to a friend in Stockholm yesterday. They are practising social distancing and large gatherings are banned (concerts, sporting events). People can go to bars and restaurants but they must sit at small tables spaced out from each other (no standing at he bar, for example).

The fact that their more "relaxed" approach clearly results in higher rates of infection and mortality is evidence FOR tighter restrictions - unless you're a Randian fascist or a Russian bot.

I spoke to a friend in Stockholm yesterday. They are practising social distancing and large gatherings are banned (concerts, sporting events). People can go to bars and restaurants but they must sit at small tables spaced out from each other (no standing at he bar, for example).

The fact that their more "relaxed" approach clearly results in higher rates of infection and mortality is evidence FOR tighter restrictions - unless you're a Randian fascist or a Russian bot.

[quote]The fact that their more "relaxed" approach clearly results in higher rates of infection and mortality is evidence FOR tighter restrictions - unless you're a Randian fascist or a Russian bot.

The countries in Europe with the highest rates of infection are those with the tightest restrictions. See Spain and Italy.

And even Italy s giving up on the tight restrictions.

Yesterday they counted 260 dead. (That would be 1,300 dead if Italy had the population size of the US)

260 dead after 2 months of the strictest lockdown.

Obviously the country can't go on like this, shutdown for months. It would be the destruction of their society.

And so, May 4th factories are reopening, shops open the 18th, bars and restaurants June 1st..

"

R427, as I've pointed out several times before on this thread and the other one about Sweden, the Belgians over-inflate their coronavirus death figures because they include all deaths where the deceased had coronavirus symptoms (this could mean just the sniffles), even if they were not tested for it. If Sweden used the same measure, it would have way more deaths (as would every other country).

Next to all other middle- and small-sized European countries, Sweden is doing much worse and has the 8th-highest number of deaths in Europe, with almost all those with more deaths being much larger countries.

Italy - the first to be hit quite badly in Europe so made mistakes, particularly in Lombardy, as can be seen in the fact that Lombardy has way more deaths than neighbouring Veneto.

Spain - did nothing until there was a big outbreak.

The Netherlands - also tried herd immunity to start with then quickly abandoned that as the deaths started rising.

France - things got out of control early on.

The UK - another one that tried herd immunity and then ended up panicking and having no coherent strategy. You should also be aware that the UK figures only include deaths in hospitals, so our death rate is actually much higher thanks to the initial laid-back attitude and subsequent panic.

Clearly, larger countries found it more difficult to make quick decisions that could be applied to the whole country and an emergency situation is much trickier to manage the larger the population, so it's not that much of a surprise that the larger European countries are struggling.

The exception among the large countries is Germany, which right from the start - after an initial cluster in one small town, but perhaps that's what alerted them - followed the South Korean model of tracing, testing and isolating, closing down local schools and businesses if it was needed before moving on to a nationwide lockdown. Larger countries like Ukraine and Russia (if you want to consider them European) are also, allegedly, managing the crisis somewhat successfully.

Ireland and Switzerland also delayed their responses so they are doing less well than they could have, but in comparison to every other country in Europe, Sweden is doing worse.

Very interesting interview with the top German virologist, explaining Germany's approach, mistakes that could be made from now on, why hoping for herd immunity is naive and the "prevention paradox" - where people in Germany or wherever think "we've dealt successfully with the virus, now everything has to go back to normal immediately".

[quote]Q: How close we are to achieving herd immunity? A: To achieve herd immunity we need 60-70% of the population to carry antibodies to the virus. The results of antibody tests suggest that in Europe and the US, in general, we are in the low single digits, but the tests are not reliable – all of them have problems with false positives – and herd immunity is also not the whole story. It assumes complete mixing of the population, but there are reasons – in part to do with the social networks people form – why the whole population may not be available for infection at any given time. Networks shift, and new people are exposed to the virus. Such effects can drive waves of infection. Another factor that could impact herd immunity is whether other coronaviruses – those that cause the common cold, for example – offer protection to this one. We don’t know, but it’s possible.

[quote]Larger countries like Ukraine and Russia (if you want to consider them European)

What are they? Asian?

[quote]as I've pointed out several times before on this thread and the other one about Sweden, the Belgians over-inflate their coronavirus death figures because they include all deaths where the deceased had coronavirus symptoms (this could mean just the sniffles), even if they were not tested for it. If Sweden used the same measure, it would have way more deaths (as would every other country).

Link please.

[quote]but in comparison to every other country in Europe, Sweden is doing worse.

False.

According to the statistics here, of over-all deaths compared to previous years, Sweden is going better than most. With no server lock down.

*severe.

Very interesting, thanks R435. Although it is not over yet, current deaths/1M shows Germany acted on time. From the same article:

[quote] Q: Angela Merkel has been praised for her leadership during this crisis. What makes her a good leader? She’s extremely well-informed. It helps that she’s a scientist and can handle numbers. But I think it mainly comes down to her character – her thoughtfulness and ability to reassure. Maybe one of the distinguishing features of a good leader is that they are not using this present situation as a political opportunity. They know how counterproductive that would be.

R439 Well thank God they have Internet.

Paul Krugman thinks Germany might be loosening up too soon.

[quote] Paul Krugman thinks Germany might be loosening up too soon.

Let him say that to a lesbian and watch his head get handed to him.

R443 what Krugman is saying is Germany is opening up and infection rates are growing.

So even WHO is saying Sweden is doing it right.

Yes the WHO that informed us so well and at the right time.

R446, where did you see that?

There is a lot on the news about Sweden...but the facts are this is far from over. And Swedes seem to be amenable to government suggestions..unlike many Americans. Also, Greece is supposedly doing it right too but they instituted lockdown early. Not much in the press about Greece but today the NY TImes profiled them.

[quote] And Swedes seem to be amenable to government suggestions..unlike many Americans.

Conservative Americans would refuse to follow government guidelines until death was swarming their neighborhood.

R443 "RO - the number of people each infectee infects in turn, has gone from 0.7 back up to 1. Bodes ill for restart efforts everywhere"

OMG! An increase of 0.3!

Trump is tweeting about Sweden.

He should be tweeting about Greece the fuckwhit! 124 deaths today.

Sweden 21,092 +790 2,586 +124

President Trump pointed out that Sweden is “paying heavily” for its decision not to lock down as coronavirus deaths in the Scandanavian country begin to rise.

“Despite reports to the contrary, Sweden is paying heavily for its decision not to lockdown. As of today, 2462 people have died there, a much higher number than the neighboring countries of Norway (207), Finland (206) or Denmark (443),” the president wrote in a tweet on Thursday. “The United States made the correct decision!”

Unlike many of its Nordic neighbors and other countries in Europe, Sweden did not impose strict restrictions on its citizens and allowed many businesses, including restaurants and hair salons, and schools to remain open.

By contrast, Finland declared a state of emergency on March 16 and shut down schools, restaurants and bars on April 1, and Denmark announced the first round of closures on March 11.

Sweden’s death rate per 1 million population — 244 — is significantly higher than Finland, 37, Denmark, 76, and Norway, 38, according to worldometers, which has been tracking the number of worldwide cases.

Finland has 4,995 cases, Norway has 7,710 and Denmark has 9,158.

Sweden, with a population of 10.3 million, has 20,301 cases.

The World Health Organization on Wednesday praised Sweden as a “model” for fighting the coronavirus pandemic.

Dr. Mike Ryan, the WHO’s top emergencies expert, said Wednesday there are “lessons to be learned” from the Scandinavian nation, which has largely relied on citizens to self-regulate. “I think there’s a perception out that Sweden has not put in control measures and just has allowed the disease to spread,” Ryan told reporters. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”

Trump earlier this month announced guidelines for governors to follow to begin opening their states on Friday.

I was thinking he was supporting Sweden...many of the protesters were holding signs saying Be Like Sweden and such

I thought the conservative rabble were big fans of Sweden's refusal to lockdown. Will they start hating it now?

Here r448. I'm not r446 but this report seems to cover what the WHO is saying about the Swedish approach.

[Quote]The major difference in Sweden’s approach is trust in the population. Ryan said: “What it has done differently is it is very much relying on its relationship with its citizenry. It really has trusted its own communities to implement that physical distance.”

[Quote]That trust, combined with strategic controls and clear communication, could provide a template for other countries that are loosening lockdown restrictions to safely adapt to a new normal.

So, there has to be trust in the population to do the distancing and clear communication from the government to follow the Swedish model. That leaves the United States out.

So much bullshit: the Swedish model was rejected by many right from the get-go. Strict lockdowns and quarantines were seen as the ONLY way to go.

Swedish utilitarianism. Get rid of the burdensome elderly.

And the third world leeches.

[quote]And the third world leeches.

Lucky they don't have the white trash, red state leeches we do who take far more.

Relatively speaking, the leeches in Sweden take a lot.

I can't believe you right-wing nuts have found a way to pin Sweden's stupidity on the migrants.

R463 One of the many articles I've read over the past weeks on Sweden's situation is that there have been a large number of migrants pass away from the virus because the Swedish Government didn't bother to give them information in their native languages. They have apparently rectified this but in a multi-cultural world it should be a given to put health related information out in as many languages as possible. But then given Anders is probably a Nazi at heart I wouldn't be surprised if this was a deliberate omission on his part.

Seriously, R464?

[quote]]One of the many articles I've read over the past weeks on Sweden's situation is that there have been a large number of migrants pass away from the virus because the Swedish Government didn't bother to give them information in their native languages.

Of course you think the migrants are stupid.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

STINKY LINKY!

[quote]Sweden admits a 'big failure' to prevent elderly deaths from coronavirus as toll passes 3,000 with 90% of victims over 70

That means there have been only 300 deaths under the age of 70.

In a country of 10,333,456 people.

Let's review. Scandinavian countries try different approaches. No matter the approach, Scandinavian countries have pandemic well under control. In contrast, USA tries EVERY bandaid possible, changes every 2 weeks, puts no national program of public safety into place, and has a pandemic wildly out of control.

r470

That isn't even close to being accurate.

If we extrapolate that ratio r469, what it means is that the number of people under 70 who died in Sweden is significantly greater than the number of people under 70 who died in almost every other similar-sized EU country. In some cases, the total of all dead in a similar-sized EU country is less than the number of under-70s dead in Sweden. It also means that Sweden failed in its goal of protecting the elderly. And Sweden's numbers across all age groups are not yet slowing down, as they are in other countries.

Those who were violently ill but recovered obviously don't count.

Sweden sees higher coronavirus death rate than US after refusing lockdown

Sweden has reported a higher death rate than the US after controversially refusing lockdown measures to ward off the coronavirus pandemic, according to the latest figures.

The Scandinavian country, which has reported 3,040 virus-related fatalities, has seen a death rate of 297.16 for every 1 million citizens, according to data from John Hopkins University.

The US, meanwhile, has confirmed 74,239 deaths — a rate of 226.33 deaths per 1 million people, the data shows.

Sweden has taken a more lax approach to battling the virus, leaving most schools, stores and restaurants open — and instead calling on residents to self-regulate themselves when it comes to social distancing from each other.

The result has been a higher rate of coronavirus fatalities relative to the size of the population than in neighboring countries — including Denmark, Norway and Finland, which enacted stricter measures to prevent the spread of the virus.

But Sweden still trails behind hard-hit European countries such as the United Kingdom, France and Spain, which all implemented lockdowns.

[quote] But Sweden still trails behind hard-hit European countries such as the United Kingdom, France and Spain, which all implemented lockdowns.

The takeaway.

oopsie!

May 12th figures vs April 17th in brackets.

Sweden - 27,272 cases & 3,313 deaths (13,216 cases and 1,400 deaths) = [bold]106% increase[/bold]

Denmark - 10,789 cases & 533 deaths (7,268 cases and 336 deaths) = [bold]48.5% increase[/bold]

Norway - 8,132 cases & 224 deaths (6,937 cases and 161 deaths) = [bold]17.2% increase[/bold]

Finland - 6,003 cases & 275 deaths (3,489 cases and 82 deaths) = [bold]72% increase[/bold]

Iceland - 1,801 cases & 10 deaths (1,754 cases and 9 deaths) = [bold]2.7% increase[/bold]

Finland can blame some of their increase on Swedes crossing the border.

Or Finns returning from Sweden.

Smugness kills.

[quote]If we extrapolate that ratio [R469], what it means is that the number of people under 70 who died in Sweden is significantly greater than the number of people under 70 who died in almost every other similar-sized EU country.

Belgium...pop. 11,46 mil...deaths per mil: 756

Sweden ...pop. 10,23 mil...deaths per mil: 328

As Euro countries open, infections and death rates will rise.

Keeping countries locked down for longer is impossible. All of Europe will wind up doing what Sweden is doing: getting on with it and learning to live with the disease.

Pardon my ignorance but doesn't Sweden's gaining wider herd immunity sooner make it less likely they will have more deaths when the disease comes around again in the Fall? Won't this balance things out?

[quote] Pardon my ignorance but doesn't Sweden's gaining wider herd immunity sooner make it less likely they will have more deaths when the disease comes around again in the Fall? Won't this balance things out?

That's what Sweden has said. They claim they are taking the hit in deaths up front and every other country will experience those deaths in the second or third wave of the virus. They have said that if you evaluate this a year from now and count all the deaths, Sweden will be as good as any other country without (they claim) hurting their economy as much. as the other severe lock-down countries.

It will be interesting to see how many Swedes have already been already been exposed to the virus. They were hoping for close to 50% in this first wave, but until that is confirmed with tests, that seems really optimistic.

The other problem with the strategy is that "killing" people up front at the start of the pandemic means that none of those people will be able to participate in revised treatment protocols or antiviral treatments that might save lives otherwise lost. If such treatments are developed, then the lock-down countries will have saved lives that Sweden scarified up front. So Sweden might not look so good a year from now.

[quote] If such treatments are developed, then the lock-down countries will have saved lives that Sweden scarified up front.

It's a very mixed bag. Some severely locked down countries like Italy, Spain, France, Belgium have had much higher death rates.

Yes, you can say that those countries didn't lockdown soon enough...but by that logic Sweden's death rate should be through the roof. But it's not.

Sweden has done worse as far as Scandinavian countries go, but if you look at Western Europe as a whole, Sweden has not done badly. And they've done it without a severe lockdown and the social costs that brings.

The rest of Europe will soon be following Sweden's lead: lockdowns lifted, social distancing measures in place.

The "Swedish approach" seems to me to be an example of a particularly Scandinavian kind of boneheadedness. Their optimism about future herd immunity, as a result of their policy, is just not going to happen. Epidemiologists in the US and in Europe have said that herd immunity won't be statistically significant until effective vaccine(s) are in use.

It's kinda funny how all the defenders of Sweden's approach (in reality, the "no-lockdown, it's all a lib conspiracy" numpties who don't have a clue what Sweden's actual approach is) always point to the handful of very few countries which the virus hit worst - either because of a botched government or local authority response (UK, Italy) or because, as it now appears, the virus may have been spreading much earlier in the country before it was noticed (France) but they always ignore the dozens and dozens of other countries that have a far lower death rate than Sweden.

Foreign Policy magazine:

"Sweden’s Coronavirus Strategy Will Soon Be the World’s"

R486 is right. Posters like R485 are going to start looking more and more foolish as countries they "admired" start ending lockdowns.

I hope you all like my work. My policies are hurting the most vulnerable, the poor and the disadvantaged. I learned my trade from the Swedes that helped the Nazis in WW2.

We don't know what happens to people have who have already been effected with COVID-19, had mild symptoms and then get reinfected during a second or third wave. It will be very interesting to study. So long as I protect myself I don't care what happens to the general population.

Um, R487, it was always the case that countries would begin ending their lockdowns. That does not mean that any of them are adopting the "Swedish model." I don't know a single one that is. They all have detailed plans for exiting, including plans for locking down again in a potential second wave; they all have metrics that they are monitoring closely; they all have restrictions that they will continue to employ even as they open up.

New Zealand has been one of the most successful countries in halting the spread of the virus, so of course it's opening up again. I'll take the New Zealand model against the Swedish model any day. Pretending that what New Zealand is doing has anything to do with Sweden or that they are in any way influenced by Sweden is just dumb.

Excellent intelligent article @ R486...and I agree with what they say. We can't sit in our apartments hiding from the corona forever.

That's just an opinion r486, we know there are some "mavericks" who have that opinion and it's also meaningless as European and other countries are already starting to open up. In some countries almost all shops and services are open again, museums and galleries are starting to reopening, people are going back to their workplaces, cafes and restaurants will soon be open again - all with sensible social distancing measures, of course. That was always intended for post-Easter/early summer and has nothing to do with following Sweden's "strategy".

I note that two of the authors are Swedes, not independent, and it's actually pretty vomit-inducing and a grotesque lie that they're trying to claim that the reopening of other European countries is "emulating Sweden". The lockdowns were always meant to be short term and their aim was primarily to flatten the curve and protect their health systems from being overwhelmed. Denmark, Finland and Germany are not "emulating Sweden", they're doing what they always planned to do.

The difference is that the other European countries that didn't follow Sweden's route overwhelmingly have much lower death rates and will be able to act far more rapidly and flexibly if there's another outbreak. These countries are also implementing tracking and testing for when there is an outbreak, while Sweden is still averse to tests.

More pertinently, there is no such thing as "herd immunity". Infection rates are really very low. A study based on actual tests (not models) showed that Stockholm by April only had a 2.5% infection rate - and that's Sweden's most densely-populated region. What is apparent is that the virus can spread like crazy at mass events, parties, gatherings or in environments where people are in a confined space - e.g. sports events, factories, weddings, nightclubs and concerts, large workplaces, festivals and celebrations, vacation resorts. And Sweden actually banned mass events from early on, so it always had restrictions of some kind - it was emulating the rest of Europe!

Sweden hasn't even "saved" its economy and is projected to suffer as big a hit as the countries that went on full lockdown.

I guess the one thing that the rest of the world could copy from Sweden is how to stop "spontaneous" gatherings of people, for example when they laid chicken shit all over a field to stop young people from gathering for a traditional festival. Because that's what Sweden has been reduced to.

[quote]I hope you all like my work. My policies are hurting the most vulnerable, the poor and the disadvantaged.

Um, no - the virus is doing that.

[quote]We don't know what happens to people have who have already been effected with COVID-19, had mild symptoms and then get reinfected during a second or third wave. It will be very interesting to study. So long as I protect myself I don't care what happens to the general population.

It's very unlikely people get re-infected.

[quote]That was always intended for post-Easter/early summer and has nothing to do with following Sweden's "strategy".

Yeah, it's interesting that he's trying to pretend that anyone is copying Sweden, R491, and pretending that nobody was planning on relaxing the lockdowns once the virus was brought more under control. And using New Zealand as his example? Seriously? That's just delusional.

R490, just so you know, the article that you claim is "excellent" and "intelligent" is riddled with misrepresentation, distortion and also outright lies - the biggest lie being that other European countries are "emulating Sweden", when they are simply implementing what they had planned all along when they announced the lockdowns.

Also, no one has been banned from leaving their apartments - in all European countries aside from Spain (which has now lifted those restrictions) you could go out for shopping and exercising.

It's a big giveaway that the authors can only mention Italy, France, the UK, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium as doing worse than them - the UK and the Netherlands also started off with a herd immunity strategy, Spain fucked up by pretending everything was ok and allowing big sports events, etc. to take place before they realised that was not a good idea, Italy was struck first so didn't know how to respond, France appears to have had the virus long before it was observed, and Belgium is an outlier but they have a very broad definition of a coronavirus death and if Sweden used the same method as them then the Swedes would have a much higher death rate too.

They avoid explaining why Germany, Denmark, Poland, Portugal, Hungary, Czechia, Greece, Romania, Austria, Ireland, Norway, Romania and every other European and almost all non-European countries have much lower death rates.

[quote]They all have detailed plans for exiting, including plans for locking down again in a potential second wave;

Germany's infection rate is rising again. There will be more hospitalizations and deaths with the easing of the lockdown. But even so, I doubt they'll be a turning back.

Germany knows it can't lose it's economic might over this.

Like the rest of Europe it will be following Sweden's path.

The authors of the lie-based article are not scientists or epidemiologists. They are:

NILS KARLSON is Professor of Political Science at Linköping University and President and CEO of the Ratio Institute.

CHARLOTTA STERN is Professor of Sociology in Work and Organization at Stockholm University and Deputy CEO of the Ratio Institute.

DANIEL B. KLEIN is Professor of Economics and JIN Chair at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University and Associate Fellow of the Ratio Institute.

I wonder if this "Ratio Institute" is some kind of libertarian, free enterprise think tank.

You could also make the argument, R494, that countries like Italy and Spain were, inadvertently, following the "Swedish model," failing to shut down. They only got the virus and deaths under control when they locked down late.

And the Swedish economy, per an article in the Wall Street Journal a few days ago, has suffered, as well.

[quote]All of that is contributing to what Sweden’s government estimates will be a 6% contraction in domestic consumption this year. Combined with a forecast 10% drop in exports, Swedish authorities predict, the result will be a 7% decline in overall 2020 economic output. The eurozone economy as a whole is projected to contract by about 8% this year, according to a European Commission estimate.

[quote]Like the rest of Europe it will be following Sweden's path.

Nobody is "following Sweden's path," which is why you haven't been able to come up with a single example. Are you really so obtuse that you don't get this? Or are you deliberately trolling?

Good news for America! Rand Paul thinks we should adopt the Swedish model.

The Ratio Institute is basically pro-business, R497, pro "free enterprise." It's financed by the "Confederation of Swedish Enterprise." Per Wikipedia, that latter organization, (although it does say "citation needed"):

[quote]Like its predecessors, the organisation is actively lobbying for pro-business interests. Tax cuts, especially the abolition of property and inheritance taxes, is a main priority. The organisation also promotes letting private enterprises take over the production of a larger part of services today mainly performed by the Swedish public sector, such as education and health services.

[quote]Also, no one has been banned from leaving their apartments - in all European countries aside from Spain (which has now lifted those restrictions) you could go out for shopping and exercising.

Bullshit.

[quote[Nobody is "following Sweden's path," which is why you haven't been able to come up with a single example.

In a month most Euro societies will be doing what Sweden is already doing.

We've already addressed that, R503, in posts you have no answer for.

Let me repeat it for you, since you seem completely unable to get it: "[bold]No Euro society is doing what Sweden is doing. Period.[/bold]"

[quote]Also, no one has been banned from leaving their apartments - in all European countries aside from Spain (which has now lifted those restrictions) you could go out for shopping and exercising.

In Paris they had to get a pass. Not sure if it was the whole of France.

Sweden today says it will reevaluate at least parts of its policy because of the high number of deaths in homes.

R502/R505

People downloaded and completed those passes themselves. That's why the story labels them "self-certification."

[quote]People downloaded and completed those passes themselves. That's why the story labels them "self-certification."

What's your point?

[quote]Let me repeat it for you, since you seem completely unable to get it: "No Euro society is doing what Sweden is doing. Period."

Factories reopened (4.4 million Italians went back to work on May 4th). Children back in school. Restaurants, cafes, bars open (June 1st Italy, May 18th Spain). Hotels open (may 18th Spain). Shops open. (Yesterday Germany, May 18th in Italy) Museums open (May 18th Italy, this Wednesday Germany), church services (last Sunday Germany), etc. and on and on.

Gee...looks a lot like Sweden.

Infections and deaths will begin to rise again, but they know very well: lockdowns are not sustainable.

BTW: Sweden's reproduction rate of infection is now below 1. Germany's is now above 1.

I can't help but wonder if the rest of Europe is going to ban entry for Swedish residents since they failed to address the pandemic at all until now with the spike of people dying at home.

[quote]with the spike of people dying at home.

Dying at home? Link please.

I was referring to R506. Glad to give you an assist with your attention issues, R510. And no I won't Google for you.

Uh...I believe R506 means "nursing homes"

[quote]Gee...looks a lot like Sweden.

No, it really doesn't. It looks absolutely nothing like Sweden and the plan they are following is absolutely nothing like Sweden's plan, which is why you can't find a single country that is "a lot like Sweden."

Let me repeat it for you, since you seem completely unable to get it: "[bold]No Euro society is doing what Sweden is doing. Period.[/bold]"

[quote]BTW: Sweden's reproduction rate of infection is now below 1. Germany's is now above 1.

Look again, moron. Sweden's infection rate and death rate spiked again. Germany's, aside from a one-day spike on the 6th, did not.

You can write all you want in bold letters...you can even write in caps... you can stamp your feet....but Europe is reopening.

Back to scholl. Back to work. Museums open. Shops open. Restaurants open. Parks and beaches open.

Following their schedules, by June most of Europe will be doing what Sweden is today.

Lockdowns are not sustainable.

And to add to what R489. The Governments and health authorise of New Zealand and Australia have explicitly stated they are opposed to the Swedish model and herd immunity and are aghast and what is happening there.

[Quote]Lockdowns are not sustainable.

They will need to be as long as Sweden threatens the rest of Europe.

How does this bode for Sweden if other countries want to reopen?

I would imagine that they will ban SAS flights and screen any Swedish nationals before setting foot on any of their territories if not outright rejecting them. Why invite untested potential carriers into the country when things are settling only for the fucking Vikings to ruin it all?

And don't go on about "all passengers tested" BS. It didn't work for the White House, after all.

R492 There is no proof yet that people who have been infected with COVID-19 are now immune. And even if they are it is highly likely that they will only be immune for a short period of time (anywhere from a few months to a year or so but only time and an antibody test that works and is 100% reliable will tell). None of the other viruses from the Coronavirus family (SARS, MERS, the common colds - of which there are four types by the way) give long term or life time immunity. There is little reason to think that COVID-19 will be any different to those viruses from the same 'family'.

Fauci testified yesterday, if you reopen now, the virus will kill many, many more people, and very soon; it's not cooling off, it's not going anywhere. He's an infectious disease expert. Opposing him, we have Donald Trump, who is nothing but an illiterate grifter, whose only goal is to get the economy reopened enough so he can claim some kind of credit for it, which right now seems to be his sole hope to get re-elected (which is the ONLY thing he gives a FUCK about; he cares nothing about the people in this country who are sick and dying from this disease; he is a *sociopath*). Only idiots would believe a word that comes out of Shitler's pie hole.

^ Maybe Fox News can find some epidemiologists who disagree with Dr. Fauci and believe that opening everything back up now is a great idea. I doubt Shitler is going to be letting Fauci come back to *his* afternoon tv program anytime soon...

[quote] The Governments and health authorise of New Zealand and Australia have explicitly stated they are opposed to the Swedish model and herd immunity and are aghast and what is happening there

Yet NZ is ending lockdown now. Is the PM of NZ a Trump supporter?

New Zealand has fewer than 1500 cases...total.

[quote] New Zealand has fewer than 1500 cases...total.

That's more than many states in the U.S.

Only six States, and the majority of the six have fewer people living there than I have living in my apartment building.

Not to mention, R525 it's a lot easier to leave one of those six states and infect people in neighboring states than it is to get to or from NZ these days.

[quote]Not to mention, [R525] it's a lot easier to leave one of those six states and infect people in neighboring states than it is to get to or from NZ these days.

Even so, I'd say people in those states are probably a lot less mobile than New Yorkers. Talk about seeders...

If you omit microstates, Sweden has the 6th highest number of deaths per million of the population in the world. If you include the micrstates of San Marino (41 total deaths), Andorra (49 deaths) and Sint Maarten (15 deaths), then Sweden comes 9th in the world.

Source for r528...

[quote]Sweden has the 6th highest number of deaths per million of the population in the world.

Spain, Italy, UK, France, Belgium have many, many more deaths. Sweden at 343 is followed closely by the Netherlands at 325 and Ireland at 303.

Also worth noting: of it's 3,460 deaths, 3,051 have been people over 70 years old.

It's official--everyone in Sweden is dead

Yes, yes, everyone, everything is COMPLETELY under control, nothing to worry about here, no, not at all. Now everyone get back to work and this little virus will be gone before you know it:

^ Info above comes from the US govt.'s own findings, the ones the White House has tried to sweep under the carpet.

[quote] Nobody is "following Sweden's path"

Well, looks like they are now.

Panic Porn at R523.

[quote]But among the areas with the largest reported spikes were Amarillo, Texas, and Central City, Kentucky, the latter of which recorded a whopping 650 percent increase in confirmed cases compared to the previous week. The documents were created by the data and analytics unit of the task force, according to NBC.

First of all, weren't we told weeks ago that as testing is increases, case numbers will increase too? In fact testing in Amarillo has been increased.

And why doesn't the article mention that the hot spot in Amarillo is a Tyson meat processing plant?

And why doesn't the article mention that the hot spot in Central City, Kentucky is a prison?

Furthermore: what exactly does "cases" mean? People who are ill with the disease and hospitalized? People who are fine but test positive?

New Zealand was able to relax lockout laws (its nowhere near back to normal by the way) because for weeks they have not had any new cases caused by 'community transfer from an unknown source'. They also also do massive amounts of testing and anybody with the slightest symptom of a cold can get tested. The virus is NOT running rampant in NZ and has never been running rampant in NZ (or Australia) which you can't say about most other countries in the world who have zero control of the virus. Also because both countries have had minimal community spread via an unknown source they have been effective in controlling the numbers. Two thirds of the cases in both countries have come from people returning from overseas. Lucky and being at the arse end of the planet have helped along with pro-active Governments that took the pandemic potential seriously and early.

Unlike the US, NZ had excellent leadership that acted decisively according to the best known science at the start of the Pandemic. Being a smaller island nation helped as well.

[quote] Being a smaller island nation helped as well.

At the far end of the world. You bet it did.

Hey r538 You know the world 'wraps' around and isn't flat, right?

R538 Isolated in the South Pacific. Total population size smaller than most US states. Aukland airport doesn't even enter into the ranking of the world's 50 busiest airpots.

In other words: Duh.

R534, actually the world is precisely doing the opposite of Sweden. Even as economies open up, they are constantly testing, wearing masks, and Keri g socially distanced.

Everyone’s holding out for an eventual vaccine in a year or two

Bullshit r534, countries are opening up as they had always planned to. They're not "following Sweden's path", just because a couple of Swedish libertarians and an American libertarian are trying to spin it that way.

The difference is Denmark reported no deaths from coronavirus yesterday while Sweden reported 117 deaths.

[quote]And why doesn't the article mention that the hot spot in Amarillo is a Tyson meat processing plant?

Saying it like that makes it sound like those people live in those plants.

They go home to their families.

Those family members then go out into the community, going to the grocery store, the pharmacy, the bakery, the take-out places, restaurants (if they're partly open or open), etc.

And that's how you get community spread.

[quote]actually the world is precisely doing the opposite of Sweden. Even as economies open up, they are constantly testing, wearing masks, and Keri g socially distanced.

Testing, masks in public spaces, social distancing....but shops, schools, restaurants, museums etc. open. In other words: exactly what Sweden is doing.

R543 But when the source is identified, controlling the outbreak is easier.

R544, but shops, museums, etc in Sweden are almost completely open, not like the partial opening with much smaller capacity openings in the rest of the world.

This is why Sweden has among the highest Covid death rates per capita in the world

R543, the workers are getting it at the plant because working conditions make it impossible to socially distance.

It was ludicrous of the HHS Secretary to claim that they all got Covid outside of the factory and brought it back

The biggest problem with Sweden’s herd immunity theory is there’s no evidence yet antibodies lead to immunity.

Plus for true herd immunity, society will need over 70% infected. Lots of dead Swedes before that happens

[quote]but shops, museums, etc in Sweden are almost completely open, not like the partial opening with much smaller capacity openings in the rest of the world.

You don't know what you're talking about. Sweden has rules about crowding as well.

R544, you must have some kind of comprehension problem. Countries are not looking to Sweden and saying, "Look at Sweden, they didn't have a lockdown and are doing really well, only 6th-highest deaths per million of the population and not 3rd-highest deaths per million of the population! We should copy exactly what Sweden is doing because they are so good!"

They're simply doing what they had always planned to do once they felt they had got control over the virus and that it would not cause further damage - regardless of what Sweden is or isn't doing. The libertarian authors of that shitty Foreign Policy article are trying to spin it so as though the rest of Europe/the world is deliberately trying to emulate Sweden, when that isn't the case.

Precisely r549, the "but Sweden hasn't gone on lockdown and they haven't had as many deaths as Belgium" crowd always forget that while Sweden may not have had a full lockdown it has implemented a number of restrictions. High schools and universities are closed while large events are banned and there are strict controls on crowds. They also had factory closures, so what actually happened in Sweden is nothing like what the deplorables in America think happened.

R550 The end result is they are doing what Sweden is doing.

Factories open, schools open, shops open etc. Social distancing rules in place.

As the WHO stated:

"WHO lauds lockdown-ignoring Sweden as a ‘model’ for countries going forward"

Note: "a ‘model’ for countries going forward""

You mean one WHO doctor tried to deflect some criticism from Sweden when it was coming under attack - except he didn't say "Sweden could be a model for countries now" but "Sweden could be a model for countries after lockdown". In other words, at that phase of the corona cycle, he wasn't recommending that other countries emulate Sweden.

I and most people in Europe went to the toilet this morning. I suspect most people in Sweden went to the toilet this morning too. The rest of Europe must therefore be emulating Sweden. I also looked up some lamps on the IKEA website. I must be emulating Sweden.

We'll ALL be emulating Sweden: lockdowns are not sustainable.

Your two assertions are not related, r554.

And you need a semi-colon, not a colon, you ungrammatical whore.

We'll ALL be emulating Sweden; lockdowns are not sustainable.

This is a great article published in VanityFair by T.A. Frank. His assessment is wise and even handed.

"An imperfect but useful analogy is to the highway speed limit. Set it to 10 miles per hour, and you might save a lot of lives, but at a huge cost to efficiency and sanity. Set it to something a bit higher, like 40 miles per hour, and you could still save three quarters of those lives but still allow a semblance of normal transit to continue. "

In this analogy, most of the world has lowered the speed limit to 10 miles per hour. It saves lives, but people won’t tolerate it for long. Sweden has lowered its limit to 40 miles per hour. That saves fewer lives, but people can live with it for a long time. It prevents carnage on one side and madness on the other. And you might save more lives overall."

Spot on, R557.

[quote] And you might save more lives overall.

Or you might kill tens of thousands more people.

[quote]Testing, masks in public spaces, social distancing....but shops, schools, restaurants, museums etc. open. In other words: exactly what Sweden is doing.

Nobody is doing what Sweden is doing, of course. The funny thing is that you know you're lying, we know you're lying, and you still do it. Like maybe what you're trying to sell just isn't true, so you really don't have a choice but to lie.

Here's a clue: if you have to lie to make a point, it probably wasn't a good point to begin with.

[quote]The end result is they are doing what Sweden is doing.

Nope, not even close. Every country cautiously reopening (well, except for the U.S., of course), is doing it following a prescribed plan, with metrics for determining each phase of opening, and with plans for regional lockdowns again as needed. Sweden is doing none of that and isn't testing nearly enough to understand the impacts of what it is, and isn't, doing. Nobody is "doing what Sweden is doing." You keep pretending but nobody is buying the lies you're trying to sell.

Furthermore, Sweden is paying a similar economic price to its nearest neighbors and is killing far more of its people than its nearest neighbors. If you're going to choose a Scandinavian country to emulate, it wouldn't be Sweden.

And if you're going to choose a country elsewhere in the world to emulate, it would be South Korea or New Zealand or one of a handful of others who have followed good science and best practices for handling this pandemic.

An analogy from Twitter that I found interesting was how a public pool handles someone shitting in it. They empty the pool, remove the shit, shock the pool to remove the fecal bacterial, then allow people back into the pool again.

What Sweden is doing is telling people to ignore the shit and keep on swimming. And what the dishonest commenters from Vanity Fair and Foreign Affairs are doing is insisting that we all want to never go back into the pool again, when the reality is that we want to go back in and will be happy to do so once the shit has been removed. That Foreign Affairs article is particularly idiotic, since they don't actually provide the data to back up what they are saying. Examples:

[quote]When much of the world experiences a deadly second wave, Sweden will have the worst of the pandemic behind it.

They don't know that, and the evidence to date suggests that this is false.

[quote]Sweden’s response has not been perfect, but it has succeeded in bolstering immunity among the young and the healthy.

This, too, is false.

[quote]Whether or not they have openly embraced the Swedish approach, many other countries are now trying to emulate aspects of it.

As is this. A country following a plan, conceived a couple of months ago, to cautiously reopen as the data show that they can, is not "emulating" Sweden, not by any reasonable interpretation of events. And nowhere do the authors note that Sweden, too, is paying the same economic price as its neighbors.

Given who wrote the op-ed, it's not too surprising that they did not examine these issues in detail. The three authors are, respectively, a Professor of Political Science, a Professor of Sociology, and a Professor of Economics. I don't know about the first two, but Klein, the Professor of Economics, is well known for his radical libertarian views. None of them have any expertise in medical issues, epidemiology, or pandemics. And their discussion of "herd immunity" shows that they have, at best, a grade-school understanding of that term.

[quote]And if you're going to choose a country elsewhere in the world to emulate, it would be South Korea

What a great idea!

"After the 2015 MERS outbreak, South Korea developed new procedures and revised laws to enable more aggressive contact-tracing. The government was given the ability to access citizens’ credit card records, cellphone GPS data, bank records, and the wide-ranging network of security cameras."

"South Korea has the highest proportion of cashless transactions in the world and one of the world’s highest rates of cellphone ownership, along with millions of security cameras.

"During dangerous epidemics, authorities have warrantless access to the private data."

"Once someone is confirmed with COVID-19, the government can retrace their movements and alert, notify, and if necessary, quarantine others who may have come into contact with them. Quarantined people are required to download a monitoring app that alerts authorities if they break isolation. "

"As South Koreans move about the country, they receive new geographically linked alerts about those who have been infected. "

"The granularity of the information is impressive, if not intimidating. An individual’s movements, purchases, and images can be minutely detailed, including whether they were wearing a mask or not at a given time. "

[quote]And what the dishonest commenters from Vanity Fair and Foreign Affairs are doing is insisting that we all want to never go back into the pool again, when the reality is that we want to go back in and will be happy to do so once the shit has been removed.

Enjoy your stay at home while you're waiting for the virus to be "removed".

In the meantime the rest of us will be getting on with our lives.

[quote] In the meantime the rest of us will be getting on with our lives.

And dying as we kill others.

"but people can live with it for a long time."

Well, those who live. And some of them will be dealing with sequelae of the virus, painfully and at our financial expense, until they die.

Sweden had the highest daily death toll in the world per capita in the past week, according to this Swedish article.

Google Translation:

[quote] Sweden had the highest daily death rate in covid-19 per capita in the past week on Thursday, dn writes, referring to a compilation from Our World in Data.

[quote] According to the newspaper, it has varied which country had the most fatalities relative to the population. Italy, Spain and Belgium have all been at the top – but when the death rate has fallen rapidly in the worst affected countries, Sweden has now sailed up to number one. The reason is that Sweden's death toll is falling at a slower and uneven pace.

[quote]Sweden had the highest daily death rate in covid-19 per capita in the past week on Thursday

Sweden's death rate per 1 mil pop is lower than France, the UK, Spain, Italy, Belgium....

How strange, it's death toll should be through the roof considering Sweden's soft approach. But its not.

A bit of context, a bit of perspective:

Of Sweden's 3,674 deaths so far, 3,239 of them are people over the age of 70.

Locking down a country and destroying an economy over this would be absolutely mad.

[quote]What a great idea!

Yes, R563, it is, in fact, a great idea, since it would have saved over a hundred thousand lives here in the U.S. and hundreds of thousands of lives elsewhere in the world. Funny how you left that part out of your ignorant rant.

Since Sweden is also "destroying an economy," r568, I have no idea what point you think you're making. And since its immediate neighbors are doing far better than Sweden when it comes to killing off their populations, picking Sweden to emulate strikes me as rather foolish.

[quote]Enjoy your stay at home while you're waiting for the virus to be "removed".

I will, thanks. I love how I told you exactly what tactics people like you employ and then you did precisely that:

[quote]And what the dishonest commenters from Vanity Fair and Foreign Affairs are doing is insisting that we all want to never go back into the pool again....

Thank you for so quickly providing that dishonest example to showcase the point I made.

[quote]Spot on, [R557].

Agreed.

Isn't it interesting. Note this passage from the VanityFair article explaining Sweden's strategy:

[quote]The coronavirus can only be managed, not suppressed. Short of going full Wuhan on the entire planet, we’ll have to live with it.

Now compare that to this:

In a speech today given by Italian PM Giuseppe Conte about the reopening of Italy, he said the following:

"Accettiamo il rischio, dobbiamo accettarlo altrimenti non potremo mai ripartire, dovremmo aspettare la scoperta e la distribuzione del vaccino ma non ce lo possiamo permettere, ci ritroveremmo con un tessuto produttivo, sociale fortemente danneggiato”

"Stiamo affrontando un rischio calcolato, un rischio da accettare, altrimenti non potremmo mai ripartire, anche nella consapevolezza che la curva dei contagi possa tornare a salire”"

...........................................

"We accept the risk, we must accept it otherwise we will never be able to restart, we should wait for the discovery and distribution of a vaccine but we cannot afford it, we would end up with a highly damaged economy and social fabric"

"We are facing a calculated risk, a risk to be accepted, otherwise we would never be able to start again, even with the awareness that the contagion curve can go up again"

And there we are...

Twerp at r572, Italy was the first country in Europe - in the world after China - to implement a harsh lockdown. The reason they're starting flights again - which Sweden has not done, by the way - is so Italy and other countries can open up, which was always the intended plan. Yes, there's a risk to that, there's a risk to any opening up - it's not going to be possible to be risk-free until a vaccine is found - but it's nothing to do with "emulating" the Swedish model of limiting the imposed restrictions in order to achieve herd immunity. Italy has done enough to really push its infection rate down to a level that is not dangerous - something Sweden has not bothered doing.

I went to some shops today that had previously been closed but have now been permitted to open. I must be emulating the Swedes!

For the Anders Tegnell fan boys, who are under the misapprehension that the WHO has approved of Sweden as a model, here's what that one individual WHO doctor - Mike Ryan - said just a few days ago:

[quote]"This idea that, 'well, maybe countries who had lax measures and haven't done anything will all of a sudden magically reach some herd immunity, and so what if we lose a few old people along the way?' This is a really dangerous, dangerous calculation," Mike Ryan, executive director of health emergencies at the World Health Organization, said on a call with reporters on Monday.

A week or two ago a French doctor announced they had found corona virus in a French pneumonia patient sample taken back in December. Just a few hours after that Sweden's Tegnell came out with an announcement that he suspects the virus was in Sweden already in November, a whole month earlier than in France. I don't remember seeing him provide any evidence for that. It's like he has this desperate need to be correct and to show that Sweden is better in every way than other countries, even being the first one to get the virus in Europe. When I heard him say it the first thing that came to mind was that he's truly a nutcase.

He's also claimed Finland will be getting the same number of casualties as Sweden but that will happen later and will be harder because Sweden was more clever about it by going for the herd immunity. A few days ago Sweden's former Prime Minister told Tegnell to keep his mouth shut and not comment on other countries because his attitude makes Sweden seem smug. Looking at Sweden's numbers I totally get what the former PM was saying. If it turns out there is no herd immunity and that Tegnell sacrificed thousands of lives just to prove a point it'll be interesting to see what happens to him.

Via Reddit:

This bullshit idea of lockdowns destroy the economy and avoiding a lockdown keeps everything humming along needs to die.

[quote]This bullshit idea of lockdowns destroy the economy and avoiding a lockdown keeps everything humming along needs to die.

I think you should interview a small business owner in Sweden, lets say a barber or restaurant owner and then do the same in Italy and see who who is more satisfied.

[quote]This bullshit idea of lockdowns destroy the economy

Uh...I think millions of people sitting home and not working just might tend to destroy an economy.

Denmark, just next to Sweden should be the true model.

Aggressive testing, tracing, and isolating has led to dramatically decreased transmissions. It’s re-opening successfully.

Considering the high number of deaths per capita, Sweden isn’t the model for anything

R580 They are a model for Nazi's who think it's OK to kill off lots of vulnerable people, not to mention numerous healthcare workers as well. Anders would have flourished in WW2. Adolf would be so proud of him.

R581 Tell us about Andrew Cuomo and his policy toward nursing homes. Would Adolf have been proud of him too?

[quote] They are a model for Nazi's

Nazi’s what, though?

R582, quite a few states have the same policy on nursing homes. And guess what...people are dying in droves in nursing homes in states that didn't have the return to the home policy.

Sweden Tops Europe Covid-19 Deaths Per Capita Over Last Seven Days

Heard immunity generally requires a vaccine. And, even though Sweden didn't lockdown fully, it's GDP is declining by 7% or more so much for that. Most Swedes are smart enough to lock themselves down. Denmark is the example, you need good leadership to succeed. Most countries with female PM's have been way more successful than those with male leadership.

Any politician talking about herd immunity, without close consultation with epidemiologists, is likely pulling things out of his ass, with expected results.

[quote]Most countries with female PM's have been way more successful than those with male leadership.

You should think twice before making things about gender and politics.

Of the major European countries with the lowest death rates there are Austria and Hungary. Both with male PMs.

The take away from the article at R585

[quote]Sweden’s strategy, mostly based on voluntary measures regarding social distancing and basic hygiene, has been criticised by some as a dangerous experiment with peoples lives but also been put forward as a future model by the WHO.

[quote]Sweden’s open strategy seems to have softened the blow on the economy, with growth shrinking much less than in Denmark and Norway in the first quarter.

Even if Sweden records MORE death than USA - those in denial about Covid19 will always point to Sweden on how they did it BETTER without shutting things down.

Nothing you can say, do or show them will convince them otherwise.

May 19:

Deaths Sweden 3,743

Deaths over the age of 70: 3,295

Oh well, their time was up. Obviously. They were going to just die anyway, probably next week.

Andrew Cuomo at R592

[quote] Most countries with female PM's have been way more successful than those with male leadership.

Like the female Primer Minister of Belgium?

[quote] Deaths Sweden 3,743

[quote] Deaths over the age of 70: 3,295

When I did stuff like that, they called me a Hitler.

R595 Not even you can top NY. So far 5,300 deaths in nursing homes...

[italic]"No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; [bold]any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind.[/bold]

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."[/italic]

MEDITATION XVII - Devotions upon Emergent Occasions

John Donne

Looks like this story is going to go on & on,

so Part 2

here >>>

They havehad lost of deaths

THREAD CLOSED. By OP / Troll 5863! 🖕👋

*Bye