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Sweden's doing it differently...Part II

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by Anonymousreply 48Last Monday at 4:27 PM

link to Part 1 >

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by Anonymousreply 105/19/2020

They were the top power in Europe till Napoleon and his wars wore them down. They came out on the winning side but like the UK after WWII, being on the winning side doesn't mean much.

by Anonymousreply 205/19/2020

The experiment is not going so well.

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by Anonymousreply 305/19/2020

R3 Did you read the entire article?

by Anonymousreply 405/19/2020

R4 Of course. The experiment is far from over. They ultimately may be correct in their assumptions.

But these data cannot be ignored.

by Anonymousreply 505/19/2020

NYC emulating Sweden.

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by Anonymousreply 605/20/2020

I would expect there to be more deaths in Sweden. That shouldn’t be the end of the debate, though.

by Anonymousreply 705/20/2020

More data... the "save longterm damage to the economy by letting more people die more quickly..." argument:

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by Anonymousreply 805/20/2020

The Guardian: Just over 7% of people in Stockholm are carrying antibodies that would protect them against coronavirus infection, a survey by Sweden’s public health authority has found.

Looks like it's going to take awhile to get to herd immunity.

by Anonymousreply 905/20/2020

Stockholm will reach herd immunity (the 40-60% rate of infection needed to prevent spread of the coronavirus), by June, according to Swedish epidemiologist Johan Giesecke, an advisor to the Swedish government's coronavirus policy.

Then all the deaths will have least bought them early herd immunity!

But maybe not.

[quote] For the city of Stockholm, two seroprevalence studies conducted by Swedish universities in April and early May found that 7.5 percent and ten percent of people tested there had SARS-CoV-2 antibodies. Finally, based on the reported deaths in Stockholm County (1,855), and Sweden’s own COVID-19 infection fatality rate estimate (0.6 percent), it is possible to generate a crude estimate that 12 or 13 percent of residents in the Stockholm region have been infected to date.

[quote] Considering that the seroprevalence estimates from other hard-hit cities such as Wuhan (ten percent), London (ten percent), and Madrid (11 percent) are in a similar range, the official estimates that Stockholm might be approaching 40 to 60 percent immunity by June are even harder to believe.

So... what if their policy only brought them a superior way to kill old people without conferring much immunity onto the general population?

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by Anonymousreply 1005/20/2020

Just a (perhaps important) observation. The hope that antibodies for covid-19 confers immunity is NOT settled science for this particular virus.

by Anonymousreply 1105/20/2020

Exactly

by Anonymousreply 1205/20/2020

R10 all the articles I've read say you need 70%- 80% for herd immunity, not 40%-60%.

by Anonymousreply 1305/20/2020

That’s exactly what I’ve been saying. There is no proof yet that just because you have antibodies that it means you’re immune. Look at people who “recovered” and tested negative, and then it showed up back in their system again and they were back in the hospital.

by Anonymousreply 1405/20/2020

[quote] Look at people who “recovered” and tested negative, and then it showed up back in their system again and they were back in the hospital.

Link, please.

I haven’t seen anything in any news articles related to this. Some people tested negative and subsequently tested positive, the thinking is the virus was still in the system, but nobody had to go back to the hospital or got sick again.

by Anonymousreply 15Last Thursday at 4:50 AM

Looks like Anders Tegnell is even more incompetent than Donald Trump and Jair Bolsonaro. They've pulled into the lead.

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by Anonymousreply 16Last Thursday at 4:57 AM

CNN @CNN · 13m Sweden has revealed that despite adopting more relaxed measures to control coronavirus, only 7.3% of people in Stockholm had developed the antibodies needed to fight the disease by late April.

by Anonymousreply 17Last Thursday at 10:14 AM

LOL at this article. So you're telling me their strategy was a fail? I'm SHOCKED!

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by Anonymousreply 18Last Friday at 5:46 AM

Amazing. The epicenter in the US, New York, is averaging around 19% of the population with antibodies with a severe lockdown.

Go figure that one out.

by Anonymousreply 19Last Friday at 5:48 AM

Did anyone ask Bob?

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by Anonymousreply 20Last Friday at 5:53 AM

So ‘Midsommar’ was based on reality after all.

by Anonymousreply 21Last Friday at 6:27 AM

Strange to talk about ‘Herd Immunity’ when there isn’t a vaccine yet.

by Anonymousreply 22Last Friday at 1:34 PM

That was pointed out quite a while ago, when they first announced their strategy, R22. They ultimately backed off that claim, if I recall correctly, and said that they had been misunderstood and that isn't what they were going for.

Sweden did a bit better in the first quarter of this year when compared to the rest of the Eurozone (0.3% decline compared to 3.8% decline, if I recall correctly) but as other articles have shown, some of those small businesses that remained open in Sweden, softening the blow, are in trouble right now because the customers just aren't there, so Sweden may have only managed to delay the damage, not prevent it. The early estimates from a couple of different sources are that Sweden will take a 7-10% hit in GDP this year, in line with its neighbors.

It's going to be interesting in future years to see the data come out as to why certain regions were hit so much harder than others. There is speculation, for example, that Sweden didn't get hit as hard as, say, Italy, because Italy has more multi-generational housing and that family spread played a much larger role in Italy than it has in Sweden. Or perhaps it's the Chinese labor in Italy that caused so much harm. Or the fact that Sweden in winter isn't as much of a travel destination, so fewer incoming vectors.

I have absolutely no idea whether any of that is true, so treat with some skepticism, but we definitely have a lot to learn about the virus and about the response to it.

by Anonymousreply 23Last Friday at 5:53 PM

This is from late April, so it looks like I was wrong that they had backed off on the claim about her immunity.

[quote]Parts of Sweden are on track to achieve so-called herd immunity from the novel coronavirus-caused COVID-19 disease within weeks, according to the man who devised the country's unusual strategy for dealing with the outbreak.

[quote]Anders Tegnell said the Swedish capital, Stockholm, will be among the first places to develop such immunity. He told local media infection rates in the city of 2.4 million people have already started to slow, because locals have developed resistance to the disease.

[quote]"According to our modelers, we are starting to see so many immune people in the population in Stockholm that it is starting to have an effect on the spread of the infection," he said.

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by Anonymousreply 24Last Friday at 5:56 PM

Ugh... "her immunity" should be "herd immunity," of course.

by Anonymousreply 25Last Friday at 5:56 PM

Interesting. Tegnell, just 10 days later.

[quote]The architect behind Sweden's coronavirus plan even said he wasn't sure if the relaxed approach is working.

[quote]"I'm not convinced at all," Anders Tegnell, Sweden's state epidemiologist, told the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet on May 1.

WTF?

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by Anonymousreply 26Last Friday at 5:59 PM

Why is anyone going on and on about this Swedish experiment?

No one’s going out to eat there or to shop either.

All in all, in nearly every measure, Sweden has failed. Its Covid death rate is among the highest in the world

by Anonymousreply 27Last Friday at 6:09 PM

It’s nowhere near the herd immunity levels you need. It’s below 10% when you need 70%.

by Anonymousreply 28Last Friday at 6:12 PM

Both in terms of economic impact and public health, Sweden is one of the worst countries in the world. Maybe in a year the story may look different, but nothing so far says they made the right decisions.

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by Anonymousreply 29Last Friday at 6:38 PM

Sweden now has the worst death rate in Europe

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by Anonymousreply 30Last Saturday at 11:56 PM

An EU country like Sweden should be doing better. But it seems the EU cannot set health rules. Next door Norway is not in the EU; how are they doing?

by Anonymousreply 31Last Sunday at 12:09 AM

[quote]Next door Norway is not in the EU; how are they doing?

Start a thread about the weather - then ask again.

by Anonymousreply 32Last Sunday at 2:46 AM

I'm fascinated by compliant populations like Sweden who seem wholly incapable of thinking for themselves and always eagerly doing what they're told with little dissent. What makes them like this? They're not that different from North Koreans if you ask me.

by Anonymousreply 33Last Sunday at 3:35 AM

[quote]I'm fascinated by compliant populations like Sweden who seem wholly incapable of thinking for themselves and always eagerly doing what they're told with little dissent.

The same mindset as Nazi Germany, or even current Germany. It's hard for most Americans to understand, since we have an extreme independent streak.

by Anonymousreply 34Last Sunday at 3:44 AM

[quote]It's hard for most Americans to understand, since we have an extreme independent streak.

Independence has nothing to do with it. Sweden has a miniscule, homogeneous population which promotes a compliant, we're in this together mentality. America's population is far too heterogeneous, angry, violent and distrusting for any type of social consensus to prevail.

by Anonymousreply 35Last Sunday at 4:04 AM

That Dr Mengele type figure (Tegnell?) essentially did a lab rat experiment with the Swedish population. Live human beings sacrificed to test a theory.

by Anonymousreply 36Last Sunday at 6:11 AM

R33, unlike you, and a lot of DLers, and right-wingers the Swedes believe in doing what's right for the common good.

by Anonymousreply 37Last Sunday at 8:52 AM

[quote]and right-wingers

Throwing that one in sure threw us off the scent that you're regurgitating right wing talking points.

by Anonymousreply 38Last Sunday at 10:26 AM

What the hell are you even talking about? Nothing I said was right-wing. The right doesn't believe in the common good. The anti-mask & anti-shut down bullshit tells you that.

by Anonymousreply 39Last Sunday at 10:42 AM

What a weird, smug little country. How lazy are they? Put some effort into it like South Korea and Taiwan.

Sweden: 3998 deaths out of 10.23 million, median age 41.1

South Korea: 266 deaths out of 51.64 million, median age 40.8

Taiwan: 7 deaths out of 23.78 million, median age 42.5

"But they're going to achieve herd immunity soon while others are going to continue to see more infections".

Maybe, but at least through it all the latter will have done their best making sure there are adequate resources for the infected, so that in the end there are going to be fewer deaths per capita than in Sweden.

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by Anonymousreply 40Last Sunday at 10:44 AM

Sweden is just open to everything, aren't they? Foreigners, foreign bodies, etc.

by Anonymousreply 41Last Sunday at 10:46 AM

Anyone that wants you to catch SARS-CoV-2 to save the economy is a sociopath, not an epidemiologist or an economist.

by Anonymousreply 42Last Sunday at 10:49 AM

R38, to explain what I meant. This is an outsider, but based on what I've read. The Swedes don't see their government as evil, and unlike our current US administration, I don't think it is. Their government, unlike ours, didn't sacrifice people's lives in an attempt to lessen political fallout, no did they lie, cheat and steal to profit from the pandemic. I think their government made the wrong choice, but it wasn't because they're right-wingers. The population followed along because their government is mostly trust-worthy, and they believe in supporting the common good, unlike the Trump administration.

by Anonymousreply 43Last Sunday at 11:12 AM

[quote]"But they're going to achieve herd immunity soon while others are going to continue to see more infections".

Do they plan to keep their borders closed?

Also, as others have said, no one knows for sure how long immunity will last for those who have been infected. Seems like a reckless plan to me.

by Anonymousreply 44Last Sunday at 12:52 PM

[quote]"But they're going to achieve herd immunity soon while others are going to continue to see more infections".

Herd immunity is going to take a long time at this rate:

"On May 21st, it was revealed by independent modelers in Sweden that despite adopting more relaxed measures to control the coronavirus, only 7.3% of people in Stockholm had been exposed to the virus by late April. This percentage is actually lower than estimates from several of the hardest hit cities in the world, such as Wuhan, Madrid, and New York, all of which were under lockdown."

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by Anonymousreply 45Last Sunday at 1:17 PM

Swedes are instinctively inclined to social distancing with many living alone. Compare with Italy where people are much warmer and touchy freely. They hug and greet each other with kisses on the cheek.

by Anonymousreply 46Last Sunday at 7:17 PM

[quote] Stockholm will reach herd immunity (the 40-60% rate of infection needed to prevent spread of the coronavirus), by June

They have a week left to make that deadline, and only 7% of the country has been infected,

by Anonymousreply 47Last Monday at 4:22 PM

The Swedes are Nazis and homosexuals.

by Anonymousreply 48Last Monday at 4:27 PM
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