Celebrate the new year in Bay City

January 1990 in Bay City. Donna and Jake are working together. Donna wants to divorce Michael, who appears to be out with Sharly.

Uh oh.

Once Sharly lets her hair down? We are all fucked!

Cass in a Speedo being kidnapped by Cecile. He looked so hot.

Cass's legs always looked like they could bring down giant trees with just one squeeze.

[quote]Cass in a Speedo being kidnapped by Cecile. He looked so hot.

Jump to roundabout 7:46.

SS is still an extremely handsome man.

[quote] Cass in a Speedo being kidnapped by Cecile.

Well, Cecile never WAS the type to wait for an invitation.

I started watching "Another World" in the summer of 86 and this was a time when Schnetzer, Tom Eplin and Anna Stuart were all getting set to leave the show. (Paving the way for Stuart to be replaced by the infamous Philece Sampler.)

Loved Beth and Phillip and Beth and Lujack. How did GL pull that off in such a short amount of time? Beth was in two huge supercouples within a year.

Lujack was OK but I was always Team Pendulous.

I love when I am watching an old film and someone like William Roerick, Larry Gates, Constance Ford, Irene Dailey or Elizabeth Hubbard pops up in it. Larry and Connie are in quite a few. Irene did a lot of theater and Liz started in daytime on Guiding Light. I'd love to see some of the 1960's Edge of Night with Connie, Irene, Liz and Barbara Berjer. There's some audio of Barbara as Claire on "As the World Turns". I'd also love it if some Judith Chapman episodes of ATWT popped up.

I bet Bill Roerick had quite a few stories from his younger days!

Bless Doug Marland and Bob Calhoun for bringing so many of the eldergay actors from that era onto our TV screens. Roerick was always so wonderful as Henry. Farley Granger and William LeMassena both popped up on ATWT.

^^

No matter how many years have passed I sob every time I watch the scene of Vanessa reading Henry's letter.

I know....MARY!

William Roerick was one of the victims of "The Wasp Woman!" His character of Dr. Richard Gavin on "Another World" treated Alice for psychiatric issues and I believe may have dated Liz Matthews. He's one of the bad guys in "Day of the Dolphin" (1973). I think Maeve's tears while reading that letter were genuine. Here's my favorite picture of Vanessa and Henry, part of a Soap Opera Digest spread of "Who Killed Diane Ballard?" (1981).

This is a better link to the above photo.

Jerry ver Dorn was so hot when he was younger.

While Maeve is pictured in the Diane murder spread, the role of Vanessa at the time (starting right before the murder) was played by Anna Stuart. A few years later, Anna & Sofia Landon were reunited on "Another World" when Sofia was cast in the unfortunate short term role of Jennifer Thatcher. I was hoping that she'd be long term, but the role just lasted over 2 months. When Anna went out on medical leave after her 1989 return, Sofia was brought in on several occasions to sub while Anna recovered. Even as just a sub, Sofia was much better than Philece Sampler, and like Maeve and Anna's situation with Vanessa on "GL", it was a nearly perfect transition.

[quote] I think Maeve's tears while reading that letter were genuine.

One of those times that it didn't feel like they had to dig deep to mourn, that's for sure. Same for the shows when they marked Larry Gates' death.

[quote]Sofia was much better than Philece Sampler

Philece's problem was her voice, the sound of which I simply could not stand (sorry, BNSD).

Maeve Kinkhead always struck me as someone who in real life was probably genuine, no-nonsense, and a far cry from the original conception of Vanessa. She may have liked playing "bad" for a while, but she seems very grounded. William Roerick seemed to be playing a version of himself, gracious and old school gentleman, and quite charming socially. After being together as father and daughter for 15 years, that can rub off on you emotionally, and there was never anything but affection between them onscreen. It's nice to read that William had a long term relationship.

According to Wikipedia, Roerick summered for many years at his home called The Lost Farm in Tyringham, Massachusetts, an old farmhouse on a 90-acre plot that he restored from dilapidation, but which remained without electricity or plumbing. He played summer stock at the Stockbridge Playhouse, and was visited by theatre friends – Shirley Booth and Lynn Bari helped rehabilitate The Lost Farm; visitors included Peggy Wood, Mady Christians, Eleanor Steber, and Samuel Barber, and Roerick hosted parties for the Stockbridge Playhouse troupe.

That's a very grounded, down to earth existence to live on a farm as if you were neighbors of the Ingalls family on "Little House on the Prairie".

Well, it was also that once Philece took over the role, they smoothed out a lot of Donna's edges.

And I saw Philece on DAYS and *knew* she could play the edges and be a bit more Gothic (she was as Renee) so it was definitely weird the way they went. But I think they were trying to "super couple" Donna and Michael, and as others have said, they wanted a younger, "brand new sexy Donna." Philece was 8 years younger than Anna, and probably read even younger on screen.

[quote] Matthew (actually the SDFT, but thought I'd go Bay City this once)

Matt Cory and Andy Dixon really were similar in a lot of ways.

Matt Cory wasn't a drunk, goddamnit.

Andy! Get to a goddamn meeting already!

You're stressing me out and I'll have to fuck Bob again if I get too stressed!

[quote]Maeve Kinkhead always struck me as someone who in real life was probably genuine, no-nonsense, and a far cry from the original conception of Vanessa.

I always assumed Maeve IRL was more like Angie Perrini -- though I preferred Toni Kalem in that role. (Maeve won me over, though.)

Philece would have been decent as Nicole, but Anna owned that role from day one. It's the one time when younger didn't prove to be better. She tried her best, but even with two years, it never seemed right. I couldn't imagine Matt falling for her version of Donna. I love the anniversary episode, 1994, when Liz shows up in a nice guest appearance in a colorful caftan and is aghast at Matt and Donna kissing openly. Rachel is amused by Liz's "horror" and basically dismisses Liz's shock and doesn't even flinch over Liz's remarks about her being involved with Carl, just telling her it ain't her business. Irene Dailey came into that episode as if she was driving a tank through Bay City and I'm sorry it ended up being her last appearance.

R21 Philece may have been younger, but to me she always seemed older as her Donna was so bland and frumpy compared to Anna's vibrant, "edgy" Donna.

(Is one allowed to post in this thread if one dislikes the Lemay years?)

R27 You may, Sylvia!

We had someone here before that was constantly all, "Lemay was a drunk" and that just got boring after a while. But if you have opinions pro or con about something, we are usually very welcoming otherwise.

[quote]But I think they were trying to "super couple" Donna and Michael, and as others have said, they wanted a younger, "brand new sexy Donna."

Ironically, Anna Stuart was 10x sexier than Philece Sampler ever was.

[quote] Ironically, Anna Stuart was 10x sexier than Philece Sampler ever was.

Yes!

Were you even alive for the Lemay years, Sylvia?

R31, You flatter me! Yes, I was alive during the Lemay years, but too young for soaps. I started watching AW in 1990; 90-92 Donna Swajeski is my Peak AW. I've since gone back and tried to fill in the gaps in my Bay City history on YouTube, and found Lemay's brief return in 1988 excruciating to sit through. Not enough of his 70s stuff is on YouTube for me to judge that.

I thought you were a millennial, Sylvia. You're always taking their side and dissing us boomers.

Not to pick an argument with ya, Syl, but it's widely assumed that Swajeski wrote some or all of her stories from Lemay's bible.

I loved the Lemay reset but it was short and they were also smack dab in the middle of a writers' strike, so as with many other shows, things went a bit in a circle.

But I love that late 80s to 92ish era, too. In fact, AW, GL and ATWT all had great runs in those years.

For some reason, I am reminded that back in HS and college.....if you turned the FM radio dial all the way to the lower end, it would pick up our NBC affiliate, and so I could listen to Another World on my Walkman during my study hall.

It worked well until I was caught because I GASP!ed at something. Such a MARY! even at that age.

R33 I'm a Gen-Xer -- I side with Millennials only because the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

R34 I don't begrudge that, it just goes to show what two different writers can do with the same basic plot outline. Harding would have found a way to make it tedious and/or all about the Frames. IMO the only really bad bit in the early 90s was the cringey Taylor Benson storyline (and of course, losing Anne Heche.)

You [italic]know[/italic] what Pete Lemay would have done, Sylvia. Yeah, right.

Anyone remember how long Philece subbed for Anna?

R38 February 1987-February 1989.

If Sylvia isn't a fan of the Frames she would have HATED the Snyders on ATWT!

R40 Thank goodness I'll never have to know. I was an All NBC Soaps, All the Time maven.

I did love AW but couldn't cope with DAYS after it went all supercouple in the 80s.

Lucky that our cable system carried ATWT - our local CBS station didn't carry it for years, airing a local talk show instead.

I had read Sherry Stringfield attended Michael Zazlow's funeral but someone said she attended an award tribute to him. True? I can't find it.

Sherry was the best Blake. I grew to hate Kiefer in the role. She was just a joke as Blake and never seemed tough and her attempt at funny was just silly mostly. Her acting had on my nerves like the chick who played Alexandra after Bev.

R43 I think Sherry was at several events for MZ after his death. She was very close to Michael and his family. Not that he and Liz Keifer didn't get along - they did - but Sherry was friends with Michael and his daughters, too.

Beverlee vs Marj as Alex

and

Sherry vs Liz as Blake

have been discussed on the Marvelous Midwestern threads

MANY MORE TIMES

than "Follies" has been discussed in the theater threads!

R27 Philece was very 'edgy' and gothic on her episode of Hunter. My wholesome mind was forever shattered when it turned out her character was a _______!

Here is Philece's full episode of Hunter. She starred opposite the lovely (and very dykey) Laura Johnson in the episode.

Looked up that old talk show....it apparently had Guiding Light week in 1984, and this episode was all about Mindy!

I think Philece was a fine actress. I loved her as Renee on Days. She was especially good opposite Brenda Benet, who played her sister (later revealed to be her mother) Lee (Emily) Dumonde.

She was badly miscast as Donna, but that was during the period when NBC was casting big daytime starts from other networks in hopes of boosting the ratings. That's why we ended up with Larry Lau as Jamie, Taylor Miller as Sally, Denise Alexander as Mary McKinnon, and Chris Robinson as Jason Frame.

Philece may have only been 8 years younger than Anna Stuart, but she read even younger than that on screen. With her arrival, they started writing Donna as a sex kitten rather than as a vixen like Anna played her. Thus, Donna was declawed with Philece's arrival.

My big issue is that AW dropped the storyline they'd been hinting at for 9 months with Philece's arrival -- that Scott LaSalle was Donna's third baby, that Donna had given birth to triplets rather than twins.

Show had nicely been setting things up, dropping hints about Scott, including that Reginald and Marissa (an amnesiac Mary McKinnon) had adopted him and that he was the same age as Marley and Vickey.

The biggest clue came in Anna's final scene as Donna when Reginald showed her a photo just after giving birth. Donna had a breakdown seeing the photo and they carted her off to a mental institution, suddenly clutching three tiny pillows and saying they were her babies. Go to 15:00 in the video below to see Reginald showing her the photo and to 24:30 to see Donna clutching three pillows.

With Philece's arrival, they suddenly revealed the photo had been of John Hudson holding her twins, Marley and Vickey. Supposedly, Donna was scared of John Hudson.

Speculation is that Philece didn't look old enough to play the mother of Hank Cheyne (Scott) who was just two years younger. That's never stopped soaps before, but it apparently did this time.

The problem is this left turn in the story telling dropped a potentially great storyline. Likewise the potentially great character of Scott LaSalle was left in limbo with nothing to do and backburnered for the rest of his time in Bay City. That was a real shame since Hank Cheyne was so very sexy and easy on the eyes.

Meanwhile, the story of Donna being so scared of John Hudson was short lived and had no major impact on the storytelling.

AW felt like a mess around the time you mention, Liz. There were some promising things happening like the introduction of Amanda and Sam, but there were also the characters you mentioned (let's not forget Sharon Gabet as whoever the hell she was - I cannot remember).

The show really did click for me in '88 when Lemay came back on board. Characters had a through line again and made sense.

How could anybody like Keifer over Stringfield? Stringfield was everything as Blake. She brought heat, humor and gravitas to the role. Keifer was a fucking joke and should have been fired and replaced. Dusay was a travesty as Alex. They should have killed her off in a blaze of glory.

R46

I can't believe she played a _______!

R39

2 years??? I totally forgot Philece was in the role for 2 years. Ugh!

R49

I loved Denise Alexander as Mary McKinnon.

I remember when William Gray Espy returned to the show as Mitch and was shirtless. I was 14 so rather young and saw Espy as much older but damn, that body.

Espy's voice was so sexy.

Denise Alexander came on with great promise as Marissa LaSalle. It was great to see her as a wealthy jetsetter, but they quickly turned her back to Lesley Webber by having her return to Vince who was no Rick Webber. For a while, Mary worked as a social worker with the hospital and had fingers in a lot of stories, but after she re-married Vince, she was finished as far as a major story was concerned. Still, Denise is one of the finest actresses ever on soaps and certainly likable. I'm glad a brief clip of her on "Days of Our Lives" as Susan surfaced when the Hayes from "Days" won their lifetime achievement Emmy's. Apparently, every "Days" episode from the start exists so maybe Retro will eventually run them like they are doing with "The Doctors". I'd love to see the ep's from those early days, pretty much anything up to the 1980 St. Valentine's Day Massacre where a third of the cast got written out.

Denise Alexander was great on AW. I especially loved her relationship with John. She was good with all her kids and Mary and Kathleen together were great.

The problem was they never found an appropriate Vince. And once her kids were gone she had no purpose.

I liked Denise but that was one of those eras where everything seemed to change every 3-4 months.

She's a jet setter! No, she's a mom in the Ada vein!

I liked Denise's scenes with Ada, and there was a great rapport between Ada & Vince long before Mary came back. I think Ada and Vince were in a collision, exchanged vicious words, but ended up buddies anyway. When the McKinnons were first introduced (Jack Ryland played a younger version of him), they used Ada's old house as the McKinnon home. I'm not sure if that continued when they re-cast Vince after a hiatus with Duke Stroud or if it was a whole new house.

[quote]Apparently, every "Days" episode from the start exists so maybe Retro will eventually run them like they are doing with "The Doctors".

Sony has every episode of Days. All 54 years worth are stored away somewhere. That's how they were able to show clips of early episodes during Alice Horton's funeral.

Likewise, Sony has every episode of Y&R stored away someplace.

Would be great is one of the Retro subchannels would run those episodes like they're doing with The Doctors.

In case people are wondering, the tapes of early soap episodes were typically erased and then reused. Thus, early episodes of many shows from the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s no longer exist.

This is a list of the status of shows that are know to still be in existence:

Any show that began in 1980 or later

Days of Our Lives -- full run

Young and Restless -- full run

The Doctors -- full run

Dark Shadows -- full run

Ryans Hope -- full run (Claire Labine had copies of all the tapes at her house).

P&G -- Archive begins with 1979 shows, although a few scattered episodes from earlier years exist.

ABC -- Archive begins with 1978 shows, although a few scattered episodes from earlier years exist. A warehouse fire destroyed all the tapes up to 1978.

Unknown status -- Love of Life, Secret Storm, Love is a Many Splendored Thing, Where The Heart Is

I don't know what we'd do without you, Aunt Liz.

I'd love if a channel would start running "As the World Turns" from the Marland era. Or maybe a few months earlier starting with Bob and Kim's wedding.

I'd happy pay for a P&G soaps streaming service. (Not much, mind you, but I'd pay.)

[quote]I don't know what we'd do without you, Aunt Liz.

You're sweet to say such nice things about a doddering old lady like me. I'm blushing!

I would love it, too, if they'd run the Marland years again, especially if they just ran one episode a day, the way they used to.

R61 Thank you! I knew the status of some of those shows from researching YouTube and reading columns through Daytime Royalty and the Cancelled Soaps Message Boards, and have made a point of copying as much as I can while it is available. I never thought I'd get a chance to see Beverlee McKinsey as Iris or Alexandra again until I discovered them on line so I invested in a nice lap top and burning equipment. It saved me money from buying through collectors, so I have stored neatly excerpts from pretty much every long running soap (some more than others) and do a little more here and there. Some copyright owners are pickier than others; Some don't even seem to care! I can fit 8-10 episodes of a half hour soap on one disc (depending on how big the files are) and obviously 4-5 or the hour long soaps. I hear that Retro will be doing some interviews with surviving cast members of "The Doctors" so perhaps we'll get to see Elizabeth Hubbard, Carolee Campbell, Jada Rowland, Anna Stuart, Kim Zimmer and others talking about the show.

I haven't been able to watch The Doctors lately live and the person who was kindly transferring them onto whatever video site doesn't seem to be doing it any longer.

I wish I could catch the later years, though I know we've already seen what was likely the best of the run.

Nobody mentioned Trent Dawson was in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. He looked...puffy.

Was Rachel's sister and Ada's daughter Nancy always a character or did she just appear one day? Who were her parents?

She was seen on and off as a little girl and then was a prominent teen character from 1984-1988 or so. Her parents were Ada and Gil McGowan. I’ll always remember our first glimpse of Nancy in 1984, sitting in a limo and grooving to “Girls Just Want to Have Fun.”

I must add it was the Cory limo and Ada dressed her down for using the Cory limo to go to and from school.

R70 She was born on screen! It was shortly after Rachel and Mac got together, if I recall. Rachel helping Ada get through a late in life pregnancy sort of cemented Rachel's shift to more of a heroine, while Iris just got bitchier and cuntier.

[quote]Iris just got bitchier and cuntier.

Was Iris ever unbitchy or uncunty?

From what I recall Rachel didn’t rush over to Ada’s to help her give birth to Nancy until she’d finished her latest sculpture masterpiece first.

In one episode!

Aunt Liz

Rachel and Iris at each other

Iris sees "Daddy!"

and

Rachel and Mac have a classic fight.

Why doesn't some network/streaming service just buy and put on all the old soaps, especially ones that lasted into the 2000's? The market is there but fast dwindling. lol

SoapNet was exactly that, R77. Didn't last long.

R76 Little Amanda! Why was the Cory study always so dark and dour?

"And I'll fight you on your terms"

Great scene. Love the music cue at the end. That was such a good story , in theory. If Laura Malone were a better actress that could have been the foundation for a story that could have carried the show for years. The only thing she had was a resemblance to VW.

SoapNet was primarily a cable channel offering each week's ABC daytime soaps (and later DOOL and Y&R) to watch later on evenings and weekends. The reruns they had, especially AW and RH, were great but ancillary.

My favorite show on SoapNet was the Canadian fantasy-dramedy "Being Erica," available today in the US on Hulu. A few episodes featured Tatiana Maslany (as Dr. Tom's troubled daughter!).

P&G could sell their content to Hulu or Pluto TV . It's not making them any money sitting in a vault, so why not?

R80 There was something unique about Laura Malone's look that made Blaine stand out, and her rivalry with Cecile (or "Cecil", See-Sul, as Alma Rudder called her, correct me if I'm (most likely) wrong in the pronounciation) but Judy Dewey seemed to just be in the background, even when she had a major scene. Sort of like the transition of Jamie from Richard Bekins to Steven Yates (even with the 3 month absence in the middle.....)

They were setting up a triangle between Donna, Blaine and Sandy when Blaine and Sandy were suddenly written out. I am not sure if Chris Rich decided it was time to go. Michael Hudson wasn't introduced for another year, so Donna's story was the repercussions of Carl stealing the love fortune and the revelation that Marley was her daughter, as well as the newly introduced Victoria.

R49, I remember all of that. It was clear they were going to make Scott another child and then nothing. I always figured that Donna freaked out because Reginald was implying that the twins were John's and not Michael's. But I didn't stay with the show - I switched to "As the World Turns" once the Sin Stalker storyline ended and never went back.

Yes, r84, upon BNSD's arrival, the storyline became one in which Donna was the village whore gong between brothers, John and Michael. It was dumb and really damaged the character of Donna.

R83

How did it come out that Donna was Marley's mother?

R86 I think Carl basically forced her to confess in public by threatening to reveal it in a more humiliating way. I believe she announced this at a party where all of Bay City society was present. Even people who prior to that had not liked Donna all that much (Rachel and Felicia) were very sympathetic to her and offered support. They realized the circumstances which made Donna the way she was. It opened her up to becoming basically a supporting character and made her a leading lady. While she became extremely popular as a result of her pairing with Michael, it was this story that made Anna Stuart start popping up on soap opera magazine fan favorite lists. Prior to that, she had only been a rare "honorable mention" on "The Doctors" even though she was a major leading character and on for over 5 years. (Daytime TV magazine) She wasn't on "General Hospital" or "Guiding Light" long enough to make an impact, although she most likely got lots of good press for making the temporary replacement for Vanessa (4 months) truly memorable.

Anna's characters on The Doctors and GH were a bit more in the traditional heroine vein, were they not?

I've seen her on The Doctors but not on GH. It seems like Donna was really her first opportunity to shine and she was amazing. (I also wonder if her time subbing for Maeve Kinkead gave her some practice for who Donna might be or should be.)

How did Carl know about Donna being the mother?

Any idea what date the confession was or an estimate? I'd love to see if it's up on Youtube.

On GL, was Beth written from the start to be the type to back talk her abusive step dad or did she get that way once she met Phillip? I've seen clips on YT of her standing up to him, back talking him even after being slapped. She didn't seem to take his shit like her mom did. I saw a Thanksgiving scene that was so tense. It was great TV.

Anna's Wikipedia entry needs some love!

Must locate Anne Heche's book to see what she says about Anna inside.....

If I remember correctly, Anne Heche said in her book that she was intimidated by Anna Stuart and was very close to Kale Browne.

Anne loved Anna, though (and vice versa). I think Anne may have been initially intimidated, but I know Anna stood by her when she went through the intense tabloid attention with and after Ellen.

Yeah, Anne has said how close she was to Anna even after she left AW. Anne's home life was such a wreck & she looked to Anna as both a maternal figure as well as a friends.

R90

I remember Beth initially being very meek and shy with Bradley. It was a gradual transformation for her to become assertive towards him.

[quote]I started watching "Another World" in the summer of 86 and this was a time when Schnetzer, Tom Eplin and Anna Stuart were all getting set to leave the show. (Paving the way for Stuart to be replaced by the infamous Philece Sampler.)

I remember conversations that Summer of '86 went:

"Who's playing Donna this week?"

"Philece Sampler."

"Who is it?"

"Philece."

"WHOOOOOO?"

"Philece Sampler."

"Philece??? I didn't know it was Philece."

Philece was such an odd choice. She was about 10 years younger than Anna and her look was so much "harsher" than Anna's. Her voice was also a departure from Anna's. It was very jarring. Then they tried that triangle storyline between Donna and Michael and John. I can't even remember who was writing and producing the show at that time. But it was a mess. A complete mess.

To be quite honest, I'm not even sure why Anna left the show.

Colleen Zenk would've made a good recast but she was tied to ATWT.

Maggie DePriest was writing it at the time. She’s also responsible for killing off Sally Frame, and writing off Larry, Clarice and Nancy.

That woman did not care about the history of the show and she loved a serial killer. Wasn’t she the head writer 10 years later when they killed off Frankie?

Maggie DePriest also gave us the the Sin Stalker storyline (making Steve Aldrich a serial killer, really?) and a look-alike impersonating Cass. These were Days-style stories! They didn't fit in Bay City at all. This is the reason 1987 was such a low point in AW storytelling.

I've watched some of the Sin Stalker storyline. In spite of the fact that he was beginning to look ill, David O'Brien really went out of his way to make the character unforgettable. There is a scene where he begins to break down after he has murdered Quinn and you see a sense of regret in Dr. Alan Glaser's eyes. I think he was looking in a mirror and it was quite evident how he hated himself for what he was compelled to do. David O'Brien was my favorite actor on "The Doctors". I'm not really a fan of either James Pritchett or Gerald Gordon, but Steve Aldrich is really likable, often funny and a bit of a fop. O'Brien reminded me of an American version of Noel Coward. I'm usually not attracted to white men but there is certainly something sexy about him.

Alec Baldwin has publicly praised O'Brien for making him feel welcome on the set and even went to gay bars with him. He said that David referred to "The Doctors" as "Off Off TV", knowing it was on his last legs. I've watched the re-runs for over a year, and Steve and Carolee are my favorite couple. There is a very funny sequence about four months before the end of the show where Steve is sneaking smokes and Carolee is trying to get him to completely quit. Tony Randall shows up and gives Steve hell for smoking. It isn't as obnoxious as it sounds as Steve was getting over being nearly killed off by the Aldrich crypt plague that had recently killed his mother, Mona. While I hated the storyline of Carolee's kidnapping by Steve's former sister-in-law, Doreen (the very campy Pamela Lincoln), I loved how Steve showed tender support after she was rescued even though Carolee had been raped by Doreen's accomplice Mel. Doreen had once been a very well written, funny socialite (going toe to toe with Kathleen Turner as Nola), but this storyline made no sense even though Doreen thought she had leukemia which made her go bonkers.

I know some have said his behavior towards Beth bordered on psychotic, but I have always felt the way Phillip loved Beth would be heaven to experience. His love seemed so intense, complete, sweet, passionate, omnipotent, real and true. I've rarely, if ever, seen that kind of love portrayed on soaps or any medium.

Harry and Meghan remind me of Philip and Beth.

R103 How so?

r101 Very insightful post. Thanks for sharing that.

I hated the Sin Stalker storyline. Just like I hated Rex impersonating Cass. I've tried to block them out. They both just felt like Days storylines being forced upon Another World, storylines that didn't match with the storytelling that had marked Bay City up until that point.

But in 1987, little about AW felt like AW. I never felt more alienated from the show than in 1987. That was a low point of my watching, thanks to Margaret DePriest's style of storytelling.

I do remember being excited when David O'Brien started on AW, glad he got work again some five years after The Doctors was cancelled. I'd always liked Steve Aldrich. But when they never really did much with O'Brien's AW character, so that left me disappointed. And then they made him the serial killer, it all made sense. They'd just brought in a name for that storyline.

You clearly have a love for The Doctors. If you're unaware, there's a DL thread devoted to Hope Memorial: The Doctors. Below is the link to it.

R105 Thanks! I'm sure that the surviving cast members of "The Doctors" are extremely surprised that one of the lowest rated soaps ever to be cancelled has a massive cult following thanks to Retro. I don't recall "Another World" getting the love when SoapNet re-ran it although they did a reunion show (no Victoria Wyndham though!) and aired about four years (1987-1991) of re-runs. They started right after the Sin Stalker story ended so it was about a year and a half of Philece as Donna before Anna returned. I taped many of those episodes, but other than stories involving Mac and Rachel and the McKinnons, nothing much memorable happened until Iris returned and then later Anna Stuart. I had started watching early in 1983 so the years of snooty sexy Donna remained forefront in my mind rather than whiny shrill Donna as played by Philece. When I watch them today, I do a lot of fast forwarding, but any Ada, Liz, Donna as done by Anna or Mac and Rachel gets me to hit play.

Anna Holbrook (Sharlene) is appearing in the Off Broadway play "Miss America's Ugly Daughter" (see link). I saw her in late 2018 in the Off Broadway play "Daniel's Husband".

Though she won an Emmy, Anna Holbrook doesn't seem to get the love a lot of other AW divas do -- but I thought she was fantastic. The Sharlene-John-Felicia triangle was idiotic but it certainly gave her meaty material to play and she hit it out of the park. I'm glad she's still acting. How I'd love to see Vicky Wyndham, Linda Dano and Anna Stuart in something again.

I'll give Anna Holbrook some love. John and Sharlene were one of my favorite couples. As soap couples go, they were almost realistic -- it's just a shame that they weren't allowed to be happy for longer than 5 minutes at a stretch before the Sharly plot began, and then the silly Taylor Benson mess immediately afterward.

Shame that Christine Andreas, one of the most beautiful voices on Broadway, got stuck with a thankless role.

[quote]silly Taylor Benson mess

How true!

[quote]I'm sure that the surviving cast members of "The Doctors" are extremely surprised that one of the lowest rated soaps ever to be cancelled has a massive cult following thanks to Retro.

But the Doctors wasn't especially low rated until about 1979, when the entire NBC daytime lineup suffered a ratings slump. Moving the Doctors from its traditional 2 p.m. slot to 12:30 p.m. in Aug 1980 when Texas debuted then caused it to slide considerably further down the ratings.

Then when Search moved to NBC in March 1982, it took the 12:30 p.m. slot, bumping the Doctors to 12 noon. Many stations quit carrying it at that point which is what caused the ratings to completely collapse.

What caused GL and ATWT ratings to slump after the domination of the 50's and 60's?

In my opinion there were various reasons but one of them was bringing in ABC/NBC stars like Marcy Walker, Marie Wilson and Roger Howarth. These stars were so tightly identified with their previous work that it diluted the identities of GL and ATWT.

GL faded in the late 60s/early 70s after Agnes Nixon left and the show went through a series of head writers until the Dobsons showed up around 1975. Then it moved up in the ratings-I think it stayed in the top 5 until 1984 or so.

ATWT dropped after 1978 from #1 because it felt stodgy and old at the time and ABC was on fire. It was tied a few times with other soaps in the 70s but it remained #1 until 1978.

I meant to say why they suffered drops in the 70s.

[quote]What caused GL and ATWT ratings to slump after the domination of the 50's and 60's?

Bill Bell and Harding Lemay made NBC's Days of our Lives and Another World must-sees in the early-mid '70s – Bell infused Days with much more contemporary psychosexual drama than the CBS shows and Lemay crafted a literate drawing-room drama.

In the late 70s, the much more hip and flashy ABC soaps took over.

I think NBC should have left it's lineup alone. Days, Doctors and AW was a pretty rock solid lineup from the late 60s until the mid 70s. Moving AW to 2, I think, hurt the show, because it had to hold on to the Days lead in. So writers tinkered with the award winning AW formula to make it more compatible with Days during the 80s and 90s.

CBS soaps fell off in the 70s because they were seen as old fashioned and not very provocative. Bell's Days, Lemay's AW, and the Pollock's Doctors were just knocking it out of the park with memorable stories and couples. Very soapy stories. The ABC soaps were also coming into their own. GH stole Denise Alexander from Days with one of the highest salaries in daytime and unheard of perks. AMC was telling youthful cutting edge stories. OLTL was still diverse and interesting and then there were the CBS soaps. The CBS soaps, except YR, were still using organ music in the early 70s. Then by the mid 70s they were just overshadowed by NBC and ABC. The network panicked and there was a lot of tinkering, which is never a good thing.

Then , by the late 70s, ABC just took off like a rocket and dominated through the 80s, CBS stabilized and the bottom fell out of NBC.

Looking back on it now, I truly believe that the hour really damaged the genre. For better or worse, Gloria Monty was the one who figured out how to do the hour to keep the audience engaged. But you look at some of those episodes from the early days of the shows going to an hour and you want to put a gun in your mouth.

I thought GL did a lot of provocative stories in the 70s? The marital rape being one.

It did seem GL fell hard at one point in the 70s then rocketed back up. So, I guess it wasn't seen as that old fashioned. ABC soaps caught on, yuck, having caught lightening in a bottle but GL was able to hold its own against GH which is amazing when you look at it.

Martial rape was provocative, and so was slutty Rita., but the rest of the show was kind of dull.

It wasn't so much the content as the pace of story.

And the "collapse" of the P&G shows and "dominance" of other shows is hyperbolic.

Right because GL and ATWT both enjoyed high ratings with GL surpassing ATWT in the late 70's/early 80's.

Yeah, I don't think the PG shows collapsed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that for most of the early 70s, ATWT, Days and Another World would trade the #1 spot. Creatively, the PG shows just got in a slump and were doing the same old same until the 80s resurgence. I would argue that AW was only PG soap that didn't benefit from the 80s shakeup.

What really hurt the ATWT and GL were weak lead-ins. Putting Search and Capitol between them did GL no favors. And B&B killed ATWT as its lead-in. ATWT was routinely #2 behind Y&R right before B&B started and took forever to recover after.

Here's a breakdown of the yearly ratings for each of the daytime soaps, starting in the 1950s and going until now.

I always have a soft spot for Another World '87. Lots of youthful new cast members like Anne Heche, Robert Kelker-Kelly, Sandra Ferguson and Joanna Going.

Yes, there is lots of Philece, but she was the first Donna I was introduced to, so the brash, go-getting Donna is the one I remember the most and not the sophisticate as Anna Stuart played her.

Also, the '87 is the final year the interlocking circles were ever used as an opening theme. For a while (around April of that year) they used an instrumental version of "You Take Me Away", before introducing Crystal Gayle's vocal version with the 21 Jump Street style graphics in Oct.

The later in 1987 'modernized" theme.

"You take me away," the long version. Song only.

Crystal Gayle also featured in the "Sin Stalker" storyline, around the time her new theme debuted.

Wow! I had forgotten that Denise Alexander got final billing with the "And Denise Alexander" in the end credits.

But there it is in r125's video. Thanks for the reminder!

I remember reading somewhere that ATWT was starting to be considered a dinosaur for its slow, slow storytelling in the 70s. Kim had been dating a guy and they had only touched once- when their hands met on a doorknob.

Though one story from the 70s I'd have love to have seen was the story of Lisa at the Willows Inn. From what I recall, Douglas Marland wrote that story and it does sound like one of his stories.

The Willows story is on You Tube

I just started a new P&G thread since this one has apparently been paywalled.