Manhattanites what is the difference between the Upper West Side and Upper East Side?

Central Park

Hudson vs East River

Historically, UES was home to old money industrialists and Wall Street bankers and financiers. There was an air of propriety, stuffiness, and conservatism. UWS, being closer to Broadway, Carnegie Hall and the Lincoln Center was home to well-heeled entertainers and creative types, thus, giving it a more artsy and liberal vibe.

UWS was for the Jews.

[quote] UWS, being closer to Broadway, Carnegie Hall and the Lincoln Center

Hello?

One is on the western side of Manhattan, but the other is on the eastern side of the island.

Hope that helps.

Anderson is UES and Andy is UWS.

[quote]Anderson is UES and Andy is UWS.

Is "Andy" Andy Cohen? Doesn't he live in the Village? And didn't he grow up in St. Louis?

UWS=democrats. UES=republicans.

[quote]UWS was for the Jews.

No, historically the LOWER East Side, was the Jewish ghetto in New York City, and home to the great vaudevillians, like George Burns.

Even into the 50s Lucy Ricardo says, "I live on the East Side, UPPER East Side."

The Upper West Side was not classy, until around the 80s, when NYC was in the process of recovering from the disastrous 70s, where it lost over 900,000 people in a decade

[quote]The Upper West Side was not classy, until around the 80s

Try the early part of the 20th century, dumbass, when it was being built.

[quote] No, historically the LOWER East Side, was the Jewish ghetto in New York.

That was where the new immigrants in the early 20th century first lived. They moved on.

R8, Andy is in the West Village, the area west of Seventh Avenue. Real estate folk stretched the boundary to Sixth Avenue to make bigger commissions.

R12, exactly. The UWS was where the Jews with money lived because they could not buy or rent on the UES. There are still a few condos and co-ops on the UES that will not allow Jews, though they do it quietly.

R10, there was a pattern for immigrants as they became more successful. For Germans, it was the LES, Yorkville, and then when they really made it Queens or North Bergan, NJ.

While neither neighborhood is monolithic, the UES in particular varies much more greatly in character between the western portion (i.e., the area closest to Central Park) and the section farther east (around Second and Third Avenues). It’s that area near the park (Fifth Avenue, Madison Avenue) that more neatly aligns with UES stereotypes of old money and luxurious townhouses.

Though you can see similar distinctions on the UWS, those distinctions are more pronounced on the UES.

Also, the UES ends quite abruptly at 96th Street, whereas the UWS keeps going into the low 100s.

When I first started coming to New York as a kiddie in the 70s from London, I lived in a very Upper East Side world and people would warn me, if you go to the Upper West Side never go beyond Central Park West. So I never did. Surely that was just weird paranoia. Where did people who lived on CPW shop for their groceries etc?

Then in the early 80s Columbus Avenue took off as a fashionable place for restaurants etc.

But I do remember visiting a distant cousin for dinner on 94th & Bway in the mid 70s and it being very edgy indeed. I think my mother and I feared for our lives. LOL.

R15, the area to the east of Third Ave is where the servants and tradespeople lived that supported the wealthy from Park Ave and east to the park. Several of the churches in the 2nd-3rd Ave area were built by the wealthy so the servants would not be attending their church.

[bold] The One Where Eldergays Explain The Differences Between The UWS and UES, Circa 1968, Which At This Point Was 52 Years Ago [/bold]

How old are you, gurl?

UWS was considerably gayer than UES - as noted above, proximity to the theater district, as well as direct subway lines to the Village, made it a prime neighborhood for many gays. That changed in the 80s, when AIDS struck at the same time as gentrification.

R20, that is not true. There were many Gay Bars on Second Ave. The Townhouse has been there forever. There was also a bath house near Bloomingdales (and, of course Bloomingdales' bathrooms were notorious.) . There was also a very well know hustler bar on the UES.

Am not old, live on UES, but am on UWS all the time.

Basic, and very general difference is UWS is more diverse ethnically, religiously and socio-economically than UES.

By UES am speaking of (and you likely meant) the rich heartland of area known as Lenox Hill and East Side (roughly from 59th to 79th streets, bounded by Fifth avenue to west and Third or Lexington to east.

Walking around UES in general you notice absence of minorities (African Americans, Latino-Hispanic non European or South American) unless they are domestics, healthcare workers, or otherwise employed in area. Lately and especially in Yorkville you are starting to see more minorities moving in, but nothing like UWS.

As has been mentioned numerous times the blocks on UES between say Lexington avenue and Fifth (all those grand pre-war or even modern co-ops/apartment buildings) contain few if any minority residents. There are no housing projects, subsidized housing, etc.. Nothing that will bring lower income residents into area.

OTOH once you step foot on Central Park West and start walking around it becomes clear things are vastly different on UWS than UES.

UWS is less homogeneously wealthy. The grand co-op and other residential buildings along CPW may contain well off persons, but they are of all races, creeds, colors, religions and sexual preferences. That and their occupations vary from Wall Street to performing artists.

While there aren't any housing projects below 96th street on CPW, you do have low income or whatever above along that street. You also have it on side streets from 82nd to 96th and beyond on blocks between CPW and Columbus, onto Amsterdam avenue and further west to Broadway and beyond to Riverside Drive.

Inhabitants of UES have long considered west side socially inferior. If it weren't for some cultural things (Lincoln Center) and maybe select other spots many UES then nor now would be bothered with west side at all. The transatlantic liners that once docked along west side piers long have gone as wealthy persons fly to Europe or where ever they wish to go outside of tri-state area.

Would say focus of UES is about wealth, not money per se; and yes there is a difference. Many UES residents move in same circle/society as their parents, grand parents, etc... That is they all went to same pre-k, primary, prep schools, colleges, etc...

Vibe on UWS is far more inclusive than UES. Yes, you have gays for example living on both sides of Central Park, but on average you'll find the gays on east side still fit in with everyone else. That is they came from same prep school, Harvard, Yale, Princeton etc... background from same sort of families, they just happen to be wired differently.

Why West world so keen on be separated by groups based on means? What wrong with you? Before this thread i thought this strata kind of thing happens only in england with their absence of ladders between classes. Surprised to find out USA like this in a way. I am from russia and my mon was janitor and dad worked on a factory as a Turner (not sure if itx tbe right Word) anx we were very poor bug we had excees to all the Museums theater libraries had a lot of classic books at home went to school with rich kidsbwhos parents had Business OR worked for the goverment NO separation here than me and my brother got higher education for free both engineers. Bought our own apartments by 35 etc. In restorant there are People of all means too like reach poor middle class. Maybe billioneers live their separated lives but all other classes intertwine and noone treat other class as anything special (with superiority OR other way) i Dont write it to say look at us we are this way i write it cos the idea of such strong separation based on money seems some thing barbarous. Like why?

[quote]if you go to the Upper West Side never go beyond Central Park West.

You can't go to the Upper West Side without going past Central Park West. If you don't cross CPW, you stay in Central Park.

Ehrm no r5, nice try, and you can be as Ivy League as you want but you’re in effing Harlem and always will be.

Columbia is in Morningside Heights. Harlem is...adjacent.

R24

Technically not true.

You can go south to Central Park South and exit the part along that street and cross Columbus Circle and be on UWS. From there you can double back and go north. Or exit at Central Park North, cross to north side of street, walk west to Fredrick Douglass Boulevard, cross then continue going west to Columbus. Once there again double back and head south to UWS.

These days the UES increasingly has empty apartments owned but not lived in by Russian and other foreign kleptocrats. Among other things, this makes it hard for the neighborhood to support the kind of businesses that make a place liveable (cleaners, greengrocers, and the like). Carnegie Hill and the eastern parts of the UES are still ok, but increasingly the bankers and lawyers who used to live on the UES now live on the UWS.

Yes, r27, if for some reason you want to be absurd.

R25

Moringside Heights is adjacent to but not part of Harlem. It is a distinct area that once was part of UWS but was carved out when major development began.

R29

No, not at all; just being clear.

Your post implies only ways into and out of Central Park are along east and west boundaries ( Fifth Avenue and 8th Avenue/CPW) which is not true. Vehicles (until they were banned) and pedestrians can enter from either north or south boundaries as well, and in both instances can do so without using CPW.

Okay, r31. You keep using your brain in that hyperliteral, obfuscatory manner. I'm sure it will make you lots of friends.

My contribution to this thread is pretty much a tl/dr for r22:

UES is whiter.

R28

Don't know what UES you are referring to; but aside from *maybe* some co-ops on Fifth through Park Avenue there isn't any wholesale build up of Russians or others using their apartments as part time residents. Maybe along Billionaire's Row, but that is another story.

Morton Williams just opened a brand new organic based supermarket at 72nd and Third (in a long vacant space that once was Talbot's), and there is a Food Emporium supermarket a few blocks south in Trump Parc building. Yet another on Third near 63rd Street .

R23

What makes America great! *LOL*

You people are fucking stupid. The correct difference of UES and UWS was and the key word is was the Jews lived on the west side.

There are plenty of Jews on UES including from Fifth to Madison; they even built their own temple, Congregation Emanu-El of New York.

Will give you back in the day it was difficult for Jews to get into UES white glove buildings, but that began to change years ago. For one thing with decline of moneyed WASPS there were gaps that needed filling . Someone has to buy apartments when people move or die....

If you doubt my words take a walk around UES from Fifth to Lexington during High Holy Days.

What I always found interesting is the East/West divide is 5th ave., which of course runs up the side of Central Park on the east side. Being so then, technically Central Park is literally on the west side.

I cannot figure out what you mean, R16.

If you go beyond Central Park from UWS you are on the UES.

North of the park is Harlem. South of the park is midtown.

It extends 51 blocks north to south and 3 very wide avenues east to west, so you would never go beyond it for groceries if you were on the UWS.

[quote]There are still a few condos and co-ops on the UES that will not allow Jews

How do the co-ops know they are Jewish? Do they do background checks?

It tells which side of The Ramble you enter from, East or west.

[quote]These days the UES increasingly has empty apartments owned but not lived in by Russian and other foreign kleptocrats. Among other things, this makes it hard for the neighborhood to support the kind of businesses that

This is happening more so on the westside. All the waterfront new builds and millionaire's row.

R40, yes, but often they do not need to. Either the person is well known in his or her field or he/she has a typically Jewish name.

I grew up on UWS and still live there. While UWS is traditionally thought of as Jewish, growing up in the 90s and 00s, my neighborhood friends were maybe 50% Jewish or half-Jewish. But plenty of Catholics and Protestants, many whose parents moved to NYC from elsewhere and liked the vibe of the UWS better.

My (Jewish) mother grew up on UES and my grandmother still lives there and I went to school there for 13 years at a school that was probably about two-thirds Jewish (same school my mother went to.) When she was growing up there-60s and 70s--there were plenty of other Jews and my grandmother's building is very Jewish.

Both areas were largely developed for wealthier families, most of that development happened from the 1880s to 1930s

The UES is actually two neighborhoods--the traditional UES, west of Lexington, and Yorkville, which was a German and Hungarian immigrant neighborhood 100 years ago. There were elevated trains along 2nd and 3rd Avenue (that is why they are so wide) up until the 1950s, which kept Yorkville less desirable. After that, the immigrant families moved on and lots of white brick buildings and then newer 80s buildings got built, lots of single professionals moved in, families too, it's still one of the few places in NYC where you can find a 2BR for under $1M (just under $1M, but still...)

About 70 years ago, the UWS took a turn for the worse as families moved to the burbs and the sidestreets in particular got seedy. That said, the area was home to many people in the arts and many people associated with Columbia University and the new Lincoln Center (built about 55-60 years ago.) UWS gentrification is mostly people reclaiming brownstones as single family and/or older prewar buildings getting new residents and majorly spruced up.

In 2020 both areas are very white and very affluent, some of the newer condos are mostly part-time residents, but both maintain a neighborhood feel for people with families, so they remain popular, plus most of the private schools are on UES, with some on UWS, not many downtown.

Final difference is that UWS is smaller in size and has access to two great parks-- Central and Riverside.

[quote] it's still one of the few places in NYC

Let me correct that-- one of the few places in Manhattan, south of 96th street where you can still find a 2 BR for under $1M

[quote] There are still a few condos and co-ops on the UES that will not allow Jews

1. Doubtful, though chances are it's never been put to the test because why would you want to live in the building where your neighbors are antisemites?

2. Co-ops, not condos. Condos are individually owned and there is no board to decide who you can or can't sell to. Hence their popularity with foreign investors.

FWIW, most co-ops are interested in a few things: will the new owners be able to pay the mortgage and maintenance, will they be good neighbors and will they live there full-time or close to full-time. The disposition of pets is also a concern--is there a dog that barks all day or scares small children in the elevator?

Not wanting actors is often as simple as wanting someone who'll live there full time and whose stans won't be trying to sneak into the building or camped out outside.

[quote]Let me correct that-- one of the few places in Manhattan, south of 96th street where you can still find a 2 BR for under $1M

Nope. If you said just over a million then you'd be correct.

Both UWS and UES are filled mainly with NYC residents, not tourists.

UWS seems to have more energy and more families with children. UES has a mix of uber- wealthy and recently-graduated-from-college kids.

When I first moved to NYC 20 years ago, I lived on the UES and found it a cultural desert. Later, I move dto eth UWS which I've absolutely loved. I have heard, however, that the UES has gotten more fun with new restaurants an such.

UES is twice as large as the UWS. It took decades but it finally got its second subway line, which it desperately needed.

R37 is correct. We are really talking more about mid-20th century history than current reality. And both areas are huge and made up of various neighborhoods.

The Upper East Side sells puppies in storefront windows. On the Upper West Side they rescue.

Like this place, r50?

[quote] they even built their own temple, Congregation Emanu-El of New York.

Actually R37 and R49 there are many, many, many more synagogues on the UES than Emmanu-El, which is one of the largest synagogues in the world and was built sometime in the 1920s, IIRC

R52, on the site of the Astor mansion as a major Fuck You! to the gentiles who would not associate with them other than business.

R52, that grifter Jose Jose de Terreforte-Diaz who has his own thread here on DL, got married at Emmanu-El and stiff them for the bill! It was a minor scandal in NYC.

I prefer the UWS.

I did not know that R53, that is awesome!

Where did Arlene Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen and Kitty Carlisle live? Where is the Dakota, where John Lennon lived?

i'm on the board of my ues coop, the only people we discriminate against are lawyers, especially litigators, anyone else who has the finanicial wherewithal and has no criminal record or reputation for being an asshole gets approved.

Sorry R47

There are a lot of these on the UES. Some even have 2 bathrooms

We used to live two blocks from Madonna’s palatial townhome (on E 81st St, but we were closer to 5th Ave), and it’s true, it’s not a very diverse neighborhood. Boring, too. Couldn’t wait to move somewhere more interesting.

There are way more over a million YMF.

Is East 83rd considered UES? My friend has lived there for 40 years. I don't know how much rent she pays, but it must be nothing by today's standards.

UWS = Seinfeld

UES = The Nanny

Is the UES "a world of ticking clocks?"

R46

Condos have boards, and can make themselves just as strict as any "white glove" co-op.

Main difference between co-ops and condos is as you've said; one you purchase shares, other actual real estate. While condo board has great say over common areas and certain other rules/regulations of living in building they cannot control sales to extent of co-op. Only weapon they have legally is right of first refusal. That is if they don't want an owner selling to this or that person, then board needs to step up and purchase unit themselves.

In wake of past fiscal/credit crisis and economic recession many condo boards tightened things up in terms of renting out units etc... So many condos ended up in foreclosure because of zero/low down payments were owner was depending upon rental income to pay mortgage. When that didn't happen or stopped they couldn't afford continued ownership.....

Meanwhile co-ops, especially old school "white glove" buildings say on UES or elsewhere in Manhattan actually remained on pretty rock solid footing during same fiscal crisis period. Strong vetting process before approval, along with insistence on heavy reserves for buyers meant they were able to largely weather economic down turns without missing monthly payments. Yes, you had those who lost their positions say at Lehman or Bear Sterns, but remarkably not all were forced to liquidate assets due to limited resources.

Are Italians allowed to live in the UES?

R62 yes, UES is from roughly E 63rd to E 96.

East of Second Ave though can be pretty gritty. I briefly dated a guy who lived in a 1 bedroom fourth floor walk up on E 80 and 2nd and it was far from nice. I think he paid $1,800, ten years ago.

Case in point for R65:

Furthermore for those who claim UES "white glove" buildings do not have Jews, look up "Lawerence Friedland". Or walk around Manhattan and look in vacant retail windows for name "Friedland Properties".

Only if cohabitating with WASPS R66.

The UES starts at 59th street.

R67

If your hook-up was at north west corner of 80th and Second, those old walk-up buildings are long gone. New luxury condo tower is going up and should be ready by February.

While yes it is true UES technically goes all way up to 96th from 59th certain neighborhoods have various names which to some denotes status.

North of East 79th from to 96th from Third to York is "Yorkville" which at one time was mostly working or middle class, immigrants, etc... Only East End Avenue was considered by some worthy of same social status (Gloria Vanderbilt among others once lived on East End Avenue).

In fact until USPS changed things East 80th from about Second to Fifth shared the coveted 10021 zip code.

USPS zip code changes for UES

Almost as shattering as when telephone exchanges went from letters to strictly numbers.

There was a time when RHinelander, BUtterfield, MUrray Hill, TRafalgar, REgent, etc.. meant something.

No matter where on the UES though — even the “less nice” parts — I always feel safe. Aside from Lincoln Center area, I can’t say that about the UWS. And above 86th Street gets pretty ghetto fast — it’s not all cute and Carnegie Hill and Sarabeths like it it’s UES counterpart.

I knew a lot of people who went to Trinity (on 89th or 90th) and when they had to get home after sports and things like that and it was getting dark, they never felt totally safe.

Oh and there are absolutely no restaurants to speak of (aside from Jacob’s Pickles, which deserves its own thread).

UES is almost 2 different neighborhoods - separated by Third Avenue. One of the most expensive - west of Third- one of the least expensive-east of Third. East of Third may be boring but I prefer it to Brooklyn - more density, more services and often cheaper. Plus the Q subway has made it very accessible to downtown.

Never liked the UWS - too jumbled with a mix of ugly and nice. The whole vibe is so different there.

Been in NYC all my life (66 years), from midtown East Side, lived on the UWS most of my adult life. In 2020, more diverse on the UWS. That’s the main difference- much whiter on the East side- still. Expensive on both sides!

Charlie at r76, did you ever go to the baths in their day?

For good parts of UES if you stand at Lexington or Third and look west then east you can see how things change dramatically in terms of architecture.

Elevated trains (EL) along Third and Second avenues didn't come down until 1950's IIRC. This explains why so many low rise buildings still remain along those avenues, many of the high rise apartment buildings not going up until 1960's or 1970's. The Richmond condo on East 80th and Third was a cold storage/moving warehouse until 1990's when property was redeveloped.

For those who want to see just what things looked like prior to say 1950 check out digital archives from City of New York. You'll find pictures of properties taken for tax purposes (as required by law IIRC), and is a window into lost parts of not just UES but city as well.

R78 I grew up between Lex and 3rd and still live there (different building of course). Am I at the literal crossroads?

I actually really like being right where I am no joke because it’s just a little more down to earth but not “too down to earth.” And I like having a bunch of food and bagel places literally within my block.

That said, there are a ton of super expensive condos east of Third these days (and for sure between Lex and Third), that I don’t think the haves and have not divide is just as great as it was.

There are also always those share of poseurs who will live in some shit fifth floor studio walk up between fifth and Madison or madison and park just so they can say they live “between 5th and Park.” Whatever makes people happy,

R79 is H&H Bagels still there??

R80 on Second.

Why’s it’s called H& H MIDTOWN will always be a mystery.

Lived between Fifth and Madison on 78th for a year. Beautiful block but impractical - nothing useful nearby. Had to walk to Lexington for a deli. An odd life in the city because it excludes one of the main benefits of city living - delis nearby.

I'm not sure that hot young actors and singers would want to live in the stodgy, boring UES. It's not a hip area.

R79

More luxury condos Lexington and east of it are coming.

78th and Lexington - half block

83rd and Third - half block

First between 79th and 80th - entire block

80th and Second - half block

And so it goes..

East of Lexington things are picking up as well.

Madison between 79th and 80th

79th between Lexington and Park

Corner of Madison and 86th....

Not sure how long those old tax payer properties on Lexington and 79th (Republic Bank) are going to hold out. There is quite a lot of undeveloped air rights worth a fortune. Of course across the street where antiques dealer once was long was redeveloped. So was Hunter college school of social work just across Lexington on 79th going towards Park

[quote] I always feel safe. Aside from Lincoln Center area, I can’t say that about the UWS. And above 86th Street gets pretty ghetto fast — it’s not all cute and Carnegie Hill and Sarabeths like it it’s UES counterpart.

You might want to revisit sometime this century. It's changed dramatically in the past ten to fifteen years and is every bit as cute and Sarabeths...and then some.

[quote] I knew a lot of people who went to Trinity (on 89th or 90th) and when they had to get home after sports and things like that and it was getting dark, they never felt totally safe.

I'll take New York In The 1970s for $400 please, Alex!!! (I had friends who went there in the late 90s/early 00s and no one ever felt unsafe.)

As noted at R18, this is rapidly turning into [bold] The One Where Eldergays Explain The Differences Between The UWS and UES, Circa 1968 [/bold]

Though seeing what the world was like in the years before I was born is one of the magical things about Datalounge.

Can we perhaps do a thread on why Alphabet City is scary AF

R85 ummm.... I’m there just about every week?

I stand by what I said, you can feel however you wish.

My friends went there in the 90s.

R48 The Met, The Frick, Cooper Hewitt, the Whitney ( now the Met Breuer), the Guggenheim, the Jewish Museum?

"Diary of A Mad Housewife," shot in 1969 the allegedly terrifying UWS, captures the eternal vibe of this place: everyone is a lawyer, a writer or a psychiatrist, and it's all about artistic pretentiousness, dinner parties, and endless therapy sessions.

In general have found inhabitants of UWS to be nosy and complainers. They moan about every and any little thing; latest outrage was the announcements made by MTA buses when turning.

UES residents OTOH tend to have more of an entitlement attitude, as in ordinary rules or laws don't always apply to themselves.

Case in point around 7PM or so when parking/meter rules end for parts of Fifth and Madison avenues building staff go out and place cones to block out parking spaces. This is done for residents who will arrive home later and thus they receive "reserved parking" in front of their building.

Along Park avenue (which has no metered parking), and certain other streets door persons put cones out all the time to either reserve parking (40 East 80th) for building staff or residents, or to keep anyone from parking in front of building so entrance is kept clear. This because God Forbid Mrs. Vanderbilt has to squeeze between two parked vehicles when leaving her car or taxi.

UES inhabitants tend not so much to complain publicly about things they don't like, but first salvo is a nice quiet letter. If that doesn't work they get their lawyer to write another. Should all else fail they simply will sue.

I love every post in this thread.

What is the area where the UN is located called? When the Jeffersons moved to the East Side? Was it the Upper East Side?

R91

United Nations is located on mid-town east side in area called "Turtle Bay".

If you want to see what area looked like before and while UN was going up check out film "The Glass Wall" with Vittoro Glassman. There are some great street shots of "old" Manhattan after WWII as areas began to change.

George and Louise Jefferson moved on up to "the East Side". Word "upper" wasn't used in theme song, nor really during series run IIRC. People just made the connection that an AA family moved from Queens, to east side of Manhattan and assumed it was a wealthy area.

Building show in opening credits of "the Jeffersons" is on corner of East 85th and Third. Not exactly the wealthy rich heart of UES, but Yorkville really. Never the less it is UES.

At that time (1970's) an AA couple (the Jeffersons) and certainly even a mixed race (Tom and Helen Willis) never would have gotten into any of the buildings west of Lexington (Park, Madison, Fifth). But east of Lexington or even on that avenue was (and still is) a different story.

Jefferson's building

R90 that’s cause most UWS residents are old kvetchy JEWS!!

[quote]he Upper West Side was not classy, until around the 80s...Try the early part of the 20th century, dumbass, when it was being built.

Not even close, I went to Columbia in the late 80s, and it was not on par with other "classy neighborhoods"

In the 80s Greenwich Village was just starting to improve, it was awful in the 70s as was Chelsea and most of lower Manhattan.

Upper West Side was a lot nicer and it wasn't a slum but it was NOT EVEN CLOSE to being on par with UES.

When I living with mother, we was in UWS, now I live with father, we UES. UES better.

Bingo R95

I picked up on that too

R93

While George Jefferson had made "some" money owning a chain of dry cleaning stores; neither himself, wife, or family were considered wealthy by UES standards (east of Lexington).

Building they lived in told tale; Mr. Bentley employed at the UN likely made a good living, but was hardly wealthy. Mr. Tom Willis (a white bread WASP depiction as 1970's television could create), was in publishing. Many connected with that business in 1970's did either come from fortunes or made them; but Mr. Willis again like George Jefferson made a decent living..... Of course what is unsaid was affect of his marriage upon career and ability to move in certain parts of society.

More telling is H.L. Whittendale the wealthy man George Jefferson spends so much effort trying to meet and impress (and owns apartment building Jeffersons live in) initially looks down on GJ. Visiting Jeffersons apartment he looks around and sniffs they have made "some" money, but in no way does Mr. Whittendale consider George Jefferson his social equal.

[quote]In the 80s Greenwich Village was just starting to improve, it was awful in the 70s...Upper West Side was a lot nicer

Not true. The Village was great. West of Seventh was for the leather queens, and regular gays and straights lived between Seventh Avenue and Broadway. East of that was considered the East Village, not as nice.

The Upper West Side, though I happened to like it more than the Village, was considered far more "sketchy," as the millennials like to say.

And I lived in both neighborhoods then.

Mariska Hargitay lives on the Upper West Side.

r101, do we know which neighborhood Olivia lives in?

Olivia lives in Paris posh suburb Neuilly

R102, Olivia?

r104, Olivia, mentioned in r102, is the character played by Mariska Hargitay, mentioned in r101. We often see her apartment on SVU, but I don't know what neighborhood it's in.

I lived in NYC from the 70s through 2000. Other than the museums, there was never any reason to ever go to the UES. There just was not much there.

The UWS has a lot of stuff.

I never go to the UWS since I stopped seeing my therapist. I do go to the UES for doctors and the Met.

When Robert Moses, NYS, NYC, urban planners et al went looking for land that could be taken to build "stuff", UWS was prime target for several reasons.

First and foremost it is served by extensive subway system, trains and buses to NJ along with North River tunnel crossings. Then you had fact large swaths of west side from Chelsea right on up through UWS into Morningside Heights and beyond were easily declared "blighted" thus paving away for HUD/urban renewal to empty out entire neighborhoods.

Even with the El trains UES was not easily accessible; nor would anyone remotely try to label areas blighted. Instead a natural process of real estate becoming valuable lead to property once used for breweries, slaughter houses, laundries, and all sorts of industries turned over to largely residential.

Use link posted above to look at tax pictures of various areas of UES say from 1940's through 1970's . On many of side streets low rise row houses or tenements were redeveloped into five-six story apartment buildings, or huge multi-family towers. Where nursing home sits on East 79th across from NYT central office was once a public school.

Institutions such as Columbia University and Hospital saw where things were going with UWS and made their land grabs early as subway service began reaching further north in Manhattan and onto Bronx.

It is the two subway lines on UWS/west side that clearly drove development. It explains why UWS has far more density in terms of housing or whatever than UES. Third and Second avenue elevated train lines actually depressed real estate values because no one wanted to live along/under Els if they could. Much of Yorkville until recently with opening of SAS remained sort of forgotten and frozen in time because things were just too far from 68th, 77th and 86th street subway.

Proof of my theories is the massive amount of development going on and more to come on UES from Third avenue east thanks to SAS. This development and changes brought by subway access is why UES/Yorkville residents back in day fought building of SAS after Els were torn down. They were happy to finally see those elevated trains go; but feared what would happen with easy and increased access bought by subway. Now it is clear they were right to an extent. There are far more sketchy people walking around UES since SAS was built.

West Village in 1970's was a mix of things, but still largely made up of working/middle class Irish and Italians (the ones who stopped Robert Moses from building his expressway down there), along with others including gays.

You had then and still now some lovely blocks of row houses (think SATC, Carrie Bradshaw's block), and some housing down there was pricey even by 1970's standards.

Nice look back at 8th street in 1970's

R108 what is SAS?

Second Avenue Subway

My understanding why Greenwich Village never got, or will be, overly developed is that it is not geologically sound like other parts of Manhattan that have a solid base of bedrock.

Huge swaths of GV like WV are landmark, historical districts, or otherwise zoned to prevent high density housing. Only what was there prior to last major rezoning, and or on fringes (such as 14th street) squeaks by.

Case in point would be that new tower replacing former bowling place on 12th/13th street. That got done because previously low rise buildings were coupled with a huge parking garage that was emptied out. You don't find much of that in rich deep heartland of WV or EV.

R114 Here’s an article backing up what I said.

UWS cock is better.

R114

Am not doubting your word, just saying regardless of limits placed by geography you aren't going to see much if any new high rise development in huge swaths of GV or WV for reasons mentioned.

Greenwich and West villages have very active, wealthy and politically connected local preservation/historical societies not to mention community boards. Their life's work is to ensure those areas remain as they are.

Case in point how they fought Saint Vincent's plans for a new hospital tower at the O'Toole building, and certainly were against redeveloping 12th Street campus for high rise housing. Only because ST V's was in such dire fiscal shape did they back down, but in end place closed anyway. They then turned around and protested, sued and whatever to keep Rudin family from totally demolishing old Saint Vincent's campus for new high rise. In end you got some higher density housing at "Greenwich Lane", but only after local community extracted millions in "gimmies".

Even if geography would support and city rezoned area you are never going to see major high density housing down there, more than that is already.

In the 1950s my grandmother lived in The Century, 25 Central Park West. She warned my mother never to walk along Columbus Avenue. It was lined with lots of Irish bars. Today the same street is home to ABC with studios and office towers.

R118

Am glad someone brought that up because no one else seems to recall or know at one time UWS was filled with Irish, which showed in all the bars/pubs.

This likely was a spill over from Hell's Kitchen which was heavily Irish area; home to infamous "Westies" gang as well.

I have a question and I guess I'll be called stupid, but a lot posts have said that there is nothing to do on the UES and there is more to do on the UWS. I guess my question is, why can't you walk across the park to do stuff on the UWS and then just walk back home to UES?

Upper West Side people are taller.

Ummm....one is on the upper WEST side and the other is on the upper EAST side.

retard

R120 Because the border crossing in the middle of the park is a hassle.

Skip what one said in R84

"Not sure how long those old tax payer properties on Lexington and 79th (Republic Bank) are going to hold out."

Passed by that corner earlier this evening and 19 Candles restaurant is closed. Notices posted in window say they shut down due to "real estate development....", further going on to thank local residents for nearly twenty years of memories........ Restaurant next door was evicted/shut down a month or so ago (non-payment of rent-marshal notice in window saying landlord now in possession of premises....). That only leaves Republic Bank on corner of Lex and 79th, which am sure days are numbered.

R120

What makes you think people don't or vice versa?

Myself and many, many others walk, bike, roller blade, etc.. through CP to get to west or east side. Do whatever one wants, then head back home.

There are buses that run from UES to UWS (and back) through Central Park as well. Nearly all of them go from far UWS to far UES, so if you want to go from UES across the park to one of the Trader Joe's on UWS, you're all set.

People take the bus across CP at 66th to reach Lincoln Center from UES, then take it back to go home.

In fact thanks to Citibike plenty of people now bike ride across the park to reach UWS or UES from either direction.

Another thing; Central Park is only about two city blocks wide; people make out like it is some huge hike to walk across. If you can walk from Lexington to Fifth or Broadway to CPW, you can walk across CP. Fastest and most direct way is to use any of the several transverses, or 72nd street drive.

Thank you, R125.

I was baffled by R120's question, as well.

Exactly, R126. Only people who neither regularly walk, run nor exercise at all would consider the park difficult to easily cross and return.

For those not around then wishing to see what UES looked like while elevated trains were still up; here you go.

This video shows footage of Third avenue El mostly from mid-town/42nd street north to Yorkville and onto Harlem mostly from 1955.

Believe it or not some of buildings seen are still standing, especially in Yorkville and Harlem

Ruppert Brewery was torn down and property redeveloped into Ruppert Towers apartment complex.

R127

Think those who have never been to Manhattan or otherwise actually seen Central Park cannot actually visualize how it functions in relation to rest of Manhattan, this includes UES and UWS.

Place is nothing but a large plot of land above mid-town saved from development before various interests go their first and started building. But park was designed to be easily accessible from north, south, east and west; also not to be a solid dividing line if you will between east and west.

I'm sorry but UWS is just boring as fuck. what the fuck is there to do? I don't go to the opera. I go to museums.

UES is more refined and all the lux stores are on this side.

Plus columbus circle is too touristy and that mall there is just like the burbs. snooze.

Yes, people say the park is 2 city blocks. it's much longer coz it's the avenues!

Greenwich Village has been ruined by the colleges down there. NYU was able to build that fucking ugly modern building by washing sq park. They got it through the committee despite the landmark status of the area.

Why the fuck they didn't demolish those ugly soviet looking apt buildings for grad students and faculty is beyond me. They tore down the gym and other buildings, the whole area is forever changed...not for the better.

R23, you got free education? Well, based on what you wrote, you got what you paid for.

WW for R133!