Are McMansions Over?

Plus they are so cheaply built, they are already falling apart.

Give me a pre-WW2 home, particularly the 1930s. They really knew how to build them.

Here's another recent article on this topic....

"When did McMansions jump the shark? These ungainly icons of ego fell into that awkward place where people try to simulate a reality they do not have. Like the Hummer or sending your kids to private school, the public image of what you consume is part of the value of your choices — and like cosmetic surgery, the results can be unfortunate. McMansions desperately try to check off real estate agent-defined boxes of beauty, but are, sadly, seldom beautiful, let alone “seriously beautiful.”"

And another...

"Redwood City is taking steps to stop developers from building “monster homes” that are too big for neighborhoods. The city council voted on a new permit process that would put larger homes under greater scrutiny.

Bigger isn’t better when it comes to living in Redwood City, according to longtime resident Rick Lewis. “Some of these monster homes are taking away from the character and charm in the neighborhood,” he said.

The Redwood City council voted unanimously to add more requirements in its permit approval process. A new floor area ratio ordinance called FAR

“A lot of times a McMansion doesn’t fit the footprint of that area,” said Sotheby’s realtor and Redwood City resident Kelly Radetich.

Radetich opposes the new home size limit, which says new homes that cover 45% of a lot or are a minimum of 3,000 square feet will now go before the planning commission for review."

McMansions came in all qualities of construction. I wouldn't sniff my nose at one if it were low priced, reasonable property taxes and was solidly constructed, great insulation and some attention to green energy.

^ I think the massive, unnecessary size is more at question in these articles, not how well they're constructed or tastefully designed.

Another question raised: if a McMansions (or a "big house" if you will) is no longer a major marker of status, what is? Don't people care less about brand name clothes and cars as well?

One can hope. So many McMansions are tasteless, soulless giant boxes.

there’s a ‘Millennials don’t want to live in the suburbs or buy houses’ troll here, did you notice lately several threads like this?

If McMansions are over, they didn't get the memo in Montgomery County, PA (suburban Philly). They're popping up like dandelions here.

I am glad these types of homes are not selling. They are a waste. Most families do not need to live in large homes. They use too many building materials, use up too much electricity, gas, and water. The newer generations understand that having things is not the end all of being well off.

My parents had a custom home built in the mid 80s. The one thing everyone told them (including the builder), was not to over build. They took it to heart and had a 1550 sq.ft. house built for a family of 4. This was at a time when mortgage interest rates were at 11% and higher. Having a lower mortgage meant my parents could do other things with their money. My brother and I were able to go on trips to New York, Los Angeles, Mexico, and take vacations to visit much of the U.S. Once my brother and I were on our own, they would travel the world.

As the old saying goes, you have to live within you means.

[quote]McMansions are the largest physical boomer legacy soon inherited by their children, the millennials, who have had the worst economic birthing since the Great Depression.

Oh, hi! Generation X here. We're also the children of the Boomers and inherited a shit economy. Or does no one remember us anymore?

millenials are also children of boomers? I thought they were children of Gen X! why do boomers get to spawn two generations? and why won’t they leave their jobs and retire for crap sake.

R10 you know that anyone age 45 to newborn is a millennial

I thought Gen X were largely the children of the "Silent Generation" not Boomers.

Probably a little of both, since someone who was 30 in 1970 would have been born in 1940, so the eldest Boomers may be parents of Xers too if they had kids young.

Get a Pre-Recession McMansion at Yesterday’s Prices...

"In South Barrington, massive single-family homes continue to list at the same prices they did in the ’90s."

[quote] I am glad these types of homes are not selling. They are a waste. Most families do not need to live in large homes. They use too many building materials, use up too much electricity, gas, and water. The newer generations understand that having things is not the end all of being well off.

That's the same justification people use when telling future generations they should be crammed into higher density housing to accommodate the growing population and then have the nerve to suggest it's about the environment. Higher density housing is NOT good for the environment.

R12 has yet to hear of Generation Z.

Are McMansions Making People Any Happier?

..."To be clear, having more space does generally lead to people saying they’re more pleased with their home. The problem is that the satisfaction often doesn’t last if even bigger homes pop up nearby. “If I bought a house to feel like I'm ‘the king of my neighborhood,’ but a new king arises, it makes me feel very bad about my house,” Bellet wrote to me in an email."...

Not every large home built after 1980 is a McMansion

I've always thought of them as being part of a gated or similar community built in an exurban area that is just being developed, which is why they sell for considerably less than a similar sized house in a more exclusive, closer-in suburb. The land is cheap (as is the construction) so the developer can sell them for less than $400K

So "The Hills at Pheasant Ridge. Important Estate Homes In The Exclusive East Pleasantville Area" will have houses starting at $350K that are similar in size to older houses in the closer in burbs that sell for $1.35MM.

That line up with everyone else's perceptions?

So this (no idea where this is located, just googled "new homes suburban Atlanta) and this popped up. I'm guessing that sized house in Buckhead would not be just over $400K

From the brochure:

[quote] Twin Bridges: Almont Homes’ newest community. This beautiful and charming new home community is located in the highly sought-after Buford/Suwanee area of Gwinnett County. Suwanee, Georgia, was recently voted one of the top 10 places to live in the USA by several magazines. Twin Bridges residents will love all that Suwanee has to offer: a great location for easy commuting and travel on Highway 85 and Highway 985, excellent restaurants, tons of shopping in and around the Mall of Georgia and entertainment and sports venues like Cool Ray Field and the Gwinnett Arena. Suwanee residents enjoy being near several town centers as well: Suwanee Town Center, Sugar Hill Town Center and Buford Town Center with their own restaurants, shopping and entertainment opportunities. The Suwanee Greenway is a popular attraction in this area as well. The greenway is a multi-use trail that runs along Suwanee Creek featuring acres of beautiful land for hiking, biking and jogging plus picnic areas and pavilions. Our Twin Bridges community features topnotch amenities: a beautiful resort style pool with clubhouse and kiddie area, tennis courts, playground and walking trails and is served by the award winning Gwinnett County Public School System.

Atlanta DLers-- tell us what the " highly sought-after Buford/Suwanee area of Gwinnett County" is really like

turn the McMansion into a grow house.

Biggest offender in the McMansion category: Toll Brothers of Horsham, Pennsylvania. Those shyster fuckers will build any ugly, shoddy piece of shit project anywhere and dare anyone to stop them. Example: Naval Square in Philadelphia. "High end" condos that look like an early 1960's vintage Holiday Inn motel.

McMansion remorse: Retirees’ palatial homes sitting unsold

"Many retirees are having a tough time extricating themselves from the massive homes that seemed such a good idea at the time—but as age and infirmities encroach, now appear to be folly."

All these articles I've posted are from the last 3-4 months, btw.

There's a similar company R22-- I once had to do a quick take on this at work--Armenian name, starts with an H I think

One architectural “feature” of McMansions seems to be an out-of-place turret.

Yes.

McMansions are over.

Like sweats and PF Flyers.

Hovnanian, R24.

I love www.mcmansionhell.com. She is hilarious and hits every target about turrets, gables, three story foyers and completely wasted space and resources.

^ Thank you! I love it and will read more of that.

So far, this is my favorite picture from her latest hell post.

McMansions permit the bright white spacious playroom of your dreams.

[quote] McMansionHell is a bi-weekly blog that aims to educate the masses about architectural concepts, urban planning, environmentalism and history by making examples out of the places we love to hate the most: the suburbs.

A lot of people don’t realize that houses are depreciating assets, land isn’t (usually). So if you buy a brand new home that costs $900,000 from a builder who paid $100,000 for the lot, it’s probably not as good of an investment as a $900,000 older, probably smaller home on a lot worth $500,000 in a better neighborhood. Especially if the more modest home isn’t hideous.

The other issue with McMansions is that they just aren’t fixable. The architecture is so bad that you’d be better off just tearing down and starting over.

I live in an expensive NYC suburb where the only new construction is on tear down lots. These homes aren’t really as bad as McMansions, but some are pretty bad. And they start at $2 million for 4000 sq ft. There homes are custom, but not even designed by architects. People don’t understand that in 20 years nobody is going to like your 2018 fancy kitchen. But if you had spent $2 million on a 2500-3000 sq ft home that is designed by a good architect specifically for the building site them you would still have a special property 20, 50, maybe 100 years later.

Gwinett County had undergone tremendous demographic change over the last 20 years--it began as white flight central and the flight has gone to far out places like Buford. These house are the sort of conservative but showy aesthetic that is the heart of Atlanta. Buford is near one of the few non-dead/dying malls in Atlanta but otherwise not near much of anything. Atlanta's real estate market was severely depressed for 10 years and now it's come back sharply. Unfortunately, the fundamentals aren't that much better than they were 10 years ago and this could be a bubble.

Thank you R27 (that was exactly the company I was thinking of) and R33 for the explanation of that McMansion burb. How much do you think a similarly sized house would cost in a place like Buckhead?

Millennials are drowning in college debt. They can’t afford houses

Houses will still be massive square footage since buyers still insist that each kid has a separate bedroom, another room for an "office", and as always, a dining room used once a year and everyone eats in the huge kitchen the rest of the time. The difference will be no two story foyers and no crazy rooflines.

what, no 3,000 sq ft beige carpeted basement?

With the tarriffs, garish Christmas decor will no longer be cheap. Why have a McMansion with 10 perfect places for your 10 themed Christmas trees, if you can no longer afford the chinese crap.

[quote] what, no 3,000 sq ft beige carpeted basement?

Will the beige area rug in this basement suffice?

I always hate when they tear down a few houses with character and replace them with one of these ugly fuckers that doesn't even go with the rest of the neighborhood. I started seeing that a lot where I lived around the mid 90s. It was horrifying.

They have one or two people rolling around like stray marbles in those faux chateaus.

Clearly no one here has ever met or been related to people who live in these homes.

I just finished reading an article in the Phila. Inquirer from several months ago. The vast tracts of "luxury homes" aka McMansions, in the suburbs are all falling apart due to water intrusion. The exterior walls are a thin layer of stucco over tyvek over chipboard which hides the damages until it is too late. Houses built between 10-15 years ago need to be completely resided costing at least $60 grand.

Quickly built, untrained workers, shoddy materials or just installed wrong. These houses cost $400-$500 grand when new and now they're spending another $100 grand to repair. Meanwhile, prewar houses built with stucco over concrete block are still water-tight.

My sister built a McMansion and raised her family in it. Quality construction but nothing special design wise. I liked it a lot. What's wrong with each kid having a bedroom and bath, if you can afford it? Couple nice cars, boat, camper. Everything. My sister doesn't have exquisite taste but there was something calm and quiet about her big house. When the kids left, they sold it and built a 2 room cottage to get old in. One of her kids is now repeating the cycle of McMansion and kids.

I have some in a development behind my 1955 house. The vinyl siding is peeling off of them and workers are always making repairs. I also know someone who bought one and the Chinese particle board walls got mold, made them sick, and it’s now impossible to sell. They have to tear it all down and start again.

South Florida had a ton. And in the 2008 recession, it was a bloodbath with foreclosures and short sales

[QUOTE] Clearly no one here has ever met or been related to people who live in these homes.

Why? Would that somehow make the ugly houses more attractive?

I’ve never understood having a stucco home in the Northeast.

Here in southern Ontario (Canada) all the new subdivisions' homes are stucco. Asking 500-700k+

They also all use engineered hardwood and have open concept floor plans.

To find a reasonable brick home, you have to go back to when the economy was not doing so well so about 7-8 years ago. Prices have shot up there too - Toronto money being spent on newer houses after cashing out.

I have friends who have them and it's kinda nuts, they have empty rooms. They're never completely cooled or warmed. Their kids have a giant bonus room where they just vegetate over video games and later drugs which appear to now be harder than just pot. The husbands have mancaves and isolate in there with their giant flatscreens and wetbars and the wives just drink boxed wine until it's time for bedtime drugs. My friends with families in smaller homes have no choice but to pile together and bond.

[R50] So true, the family orbits around each other in their individual worlds of booze, drugs and porn. I mean, that may sound fun, but it’s not exactly wholesome family life. I can’t imagine what that would mean developmentally for kids.

You are all a bunch of marys. Many families who live in McMansions are not isolated drug, booze and porn addicted retards.

I suppose my house falls into this category, and because I’m in a growth market the price continues to increase.

I could give two farts about millennials. They’re not the demographic for buying a house like this. The obsession with a bunch of a debt ridding, straight out of college kids is ludicrous. The demographic for a house like mine is “married couple in their 40s with 2-3 children”. A 5,000 sq ft house isn’t a starter home. It’s more likely your third or fourth home that you’ve trade up to over the years having built equity in your previous homes and saved for a down payment.

[quote] “married couple in their 40s with 2-3 children”.

And the oldest Millennials are 39

There’s a bit of a difference between “oldest” and “median”, yes? So, who’s buying houses. Why, it’s the 37 to 51 age group. Who’s buying *large* houses? 65% married, 37% with children. For the largest home segment, the median age is 54 with an income over $200,000. As the large homes often are non-conforming loans, they aren’t eligible for FHA/VA loans, so the more reliable data comes NRE and other real estate organizations.

Millennials with student loan debt are more likely to buy a smaller home, averaging 1800 sq ft and are 34 years old.

Where the large homes markets are doing well is adjacent to major cities. Those in exurbs are suffering in comparison, with heavy congestion and lack of available services.

[quote] Who’s buying *large* houses? 65% married, 37% with children

Where is that figure from? Do you have a link--I'm not doubting you as much as curious to see the whole study. I'm surprised the number of families with kids is that low. I'd have thought most large houses were being bought by families with kids, as they need the extra room, especially if there are more than two kids and you generally hear of empty nesters downsizing not upsizing.

Thanks

I have never understood the concept. Usually they are highly unique and use the most current decorating trends and look dated after 4 years. They also seem vaguely like shopping centers. Also I dont know anybody that has ever made serious money on a mcmansion resale a decade later without completely gutting the place........

Seeing some of the housewives franchises living in tacky mcmansions is just sad. They need intercoms or phones to contact other occupants in the house because they are so far away. I would suspect you really end up using just a few rooms and the rest goes to waste. Maybe if you had 12 kids and a whole gob of live in help I could see the need for that much space but usually those places only have a couple living in them...........

Why not buy a large older home in need of some work in an old money neighborhood and fix it up? That would seem to be a lot better use for your money.

Most of it is from newhomesource.com, much from nre.org who post their statistical data online.

Thanks R58

Hmmm. nre.org seems to be a non-working site R58. Did you mean NAR? (National Association of Realtors)?

I would be embarrassed to live in one of these houses.

R57 /sigh I’m not going to disagree. Like any home, regardless of size, there’s no accounting for taste. My spouse and I have completely different and incompatible tastes. His were traditional midwestern. Mine? Probably mid century modern that got run over by a Ramada Inn.

It takes very little time for those wonderful colors and treatments to look 50 years old, and when you have 15’ ceilings, it’s magnified.

I didn’t buy an older home for a simple reason: gutting and fixing one up cost more than building new. Bluntly, there are no “older” homes in my area. Just even more expensive homes. When we started looking here 20 years ago the starting price was $750K to $1M. Anything at $500 needed serious work. If it was $400K, it needed a new roof, new HVAC and probably had foundation problems. A couple had one bathroom and most needed new kitchens.

A new kitchen is about $30K, each new bathroom is about $10K. If you’re adding bathrooms that’s about $25K. I built new on a prized lot that backed to woods which is rare here, convenient to public transportation and the airport and under $600K. It’s increased 50%.

It was a decided risk but this is a part of my retirement portfolio, which is why these houses appeal to mid career buyers. Certainly there are issues with any house, and building new does not ensure you are without issues. I’ve replaced both air conditioners and one furnace. I’ll replace the kitchen appliances late this year or early next.

Let’s go back to an important point (at least to me) that was raised up thread. Some of these homes look like crap. Some people buy a home and have no idea how to maintain them or the cost involved in home maintenance of any kind. There’s consequences to not having adequate funds to support your home and buying a home that’s too big for your budget is a huge mistake.

It’s tempting to get talked into a house that’s going to live you house rich and cash poor. DON’T DO IT. Leave yourself in a position where you can pay all your bills and still save money, because you’re going to have significant expenses.

I'll be putting my 1930s brick home, 1300 sq. ft., on the market in the next couple of weeks. I'm surrounded by McMansions, so I'm mildly curious as to a) whether the home will sell and b) whether the new owner will tear it down and build a McMansion, as has happened to damn near all of the older homes in my neighborhood.

A tornado will make mincemeat of one of those vinyl/stone faced boxes.

They are 90% horrifically ugly - they appeal to straight people with families who need space. But it would seem the wave of Baby Boom retirees would flood the market with a lot of McMansions that they don’t want - with fewer buyers in the market for them. I get the appeal - but hate them. Pre-WW2 house is my ideal - I love doing renovations to my taste so happy if it’s in bad shape.

Name a structure that’s immune to earthquakes, hurricanes or tornadoes.

A dome home, R66.

r62 what area are you in?

They're mostly poorly constructed. They don't feel solid when walk around in them. I know a couple who live in a giant one and as their knees and backs started to go, they pretty much closed off the top two floors and live on the first floor, still plenty of room, but why? They periodically go up there to check for leaks and flush the toilets. Their neighbors had an elevator installed. All I can think of is that lady who was stuck in her home elevator for days.

Huge houses are also a major pain in the ass to maintain unless you’re willing to pay out the nose for help. My house is just over 2000 square feet on just under an acre of land and I’m annoyed with how much of my weekend time is devoted to house and yard work.

[quote]why won’t they leave their jobs and retire for crap sake.

I LIKE my job and fuck anyone who thinks I should retire.

R70 God yes. I had a conversation with a woman this morning who wants to buy her first home. She's happy to buy a townhouse; her husband wants a single family. Neither has owned a home today, nor have they talked about these responsibilities. Who's going to do the maintenance? They both work multiple jobs, so who's cutting the grass, pruning bushes and trees, maintaining the sidewalk and driveway.

Don't run away with the romantic ideas of homeownership. If you work or travel extensively, don't burden yourself with something that's a money and time pit. Stick with something that's not more than 25% of your actual take home pay - and not that "adjusting your taxes" game real estate agents pay.

Your home will cost you more than renting. You're gaming that it will increase in value enough to offset your expenses to you profit off it. If it doesn't, it's a bad investment so don't do it. If it's going to eat up all your free time, it's a bad investment and don't do it.

Budget carefully for real expenses like the cost of utilities (*ask* for the current owner's bills). Get quotes for the cost of replacing the roof if the house hasn't had it replaced in the last 20 years. if the HVAC is 10 years old, budget $6K per unit and another $5K for the cooling stack. If the furnace is more than 10 years old, count on another $7-$10K to replace it. Water heater more than 15 years old? That's $1K right there. Kitchen appliances more than ten years old? $1500 for the refrigerator, equal for the stove, $1000 for a dishwasher.

Those windows? Replacements can range from $500 for vinyl to $1500+ for vinyl clad wood replacement per window. See any fogging in a window as you walk through - especially in a transom window? That's $2000 right there. It's leaked and has to be replaced.

Budget. Know what your costs can be so you can plan for replacements *in cash*. Don't finance the updates and repairs; you're increase your monthly expense when you need to reduce them.

I live right above the tech hub (Google, YouTube, etc) in Los Angeles. Many of the homes from the 40s and 50s in the area are being torn down and replaced with homes that look like dental offices.

R73 - that is nicer than the McMansions in the northeast and South. At least it’s a consistent modern architecture.

My aunt and uncle sold their house (2000 sq feet bilevel on at least an acre) after 40 years in it. They give the new owner a massive binder of all the upkeep of the property and who to call for this and that.

R75 and then be tore it down and built a McMansion in its place.

I didn’t read the article but a HUGE problem with the McMansions of the 2000-2007 era was that they were built extremely cheaply. So any millennial walking in to an open house is going to find out a laundry list of expensive fixes necessary. The roofs were so shoddy they needed replacement within a decade

The McMansion Hell blog, which I'm guessing was name checked earlier in this thread, has great examples of the problems with the architecture.

That photo also highlights the Suessian topiary that seems to adorn the lawns of many a McMansion

McMansions still pop-up in Brooklyn where a 1950s house is demolished for a three-story faux brick residence. Its ugliness stands out being surrounded by one-story homes on the block. In some areas, two small houses are knocked down to create the visual monstrosity.

How embarrassed would you be if the house that you were halfway drowning in showed up in that blog?

The comment section on that blog is really funny. You can tell who has the McMansions because they accuse the critics of being jealous.

R77 That's actually a non-alarmist point.

Let's walk that one because I'm really glad you brought that up. There was a period in the early 2000's that seriously crap shingles were imported from China and were used on expensive homes. They were horrible. In some cases, there was no choice but to pull them off and replace them. You don't know until you see whether the roof leaks, which means go into the attic and look for leaks. Don't trust anybody's opinion. Get up there. Look for any tell-tale signs of patch work, any signs of rust and sitting water.

If there's any stained ceilings on the upper level, it's a dead giveaway you're stuck with a leaking roof if you buy that house. A common stunt is homeowners will suddenly repaint all the ceilings, but not all the walls. Stupid.

There's little you can do to identify the defective chinese shingles as there wasn't a tracing system for them. Builders, heh, what ya gonna do? You can hire your own inspector and pray they're competent enough to see whether they're chinese made.

There's not a lot of thrills with tyvek cladding, but it's code in a lot of places because blah blah it reduces black mold and builders love it because it's cheap to build with. You're not going to find stone masonry in a house you can afford and if you do - you better check the pipes for leaks and make sure they're not lead pipes or leaking. If you have to go through masonry to replace a pipe, you're looking at $10K.

I'm lucky my adoptive father left me the villa Otto Silenus designed for him in Cagnes-sur-Mer. However, the last fonderie skilled to work with bronze window casements closed over a decade ago.

The GIANT window above the front door, the GIANT foyer with the GIANT chandelier. Tacky, tacky, tacky. And that seems to be a staple of these McMansion monstrosities.

McMansions are built for McFatties.

One of my customers is a contractor who specializes in turning those giant high ceilings into livable space. He's booked out for months

[R86] There’s big business to be had in reversing McMansion damage. It’s like the real estate version of removing tattoos.

Dammit that's supposed to go in the Linda Cardellini thread.

The scale of the rooms is so ridiculous. You could land a helicopter in those rooms. It's so wasteful. And it's usually just a family of four living in these houses.

R88 honey, that happens to all of us these days.

[quote]They are 90% horrifically ugly - they appeal to straight people with families who need space.

I predict they will have a resurgence in popularity in 15-20 years...as millennials and Xers start taking in huge number of boomer parents when they get elderly. You can never have enough space in those circumstances. Especially if the millennial offspring is another boomerang generation, and wages and student debt stay how they are now. I think there will be demand for these homes to house multiple generations.

One of my sisters has one of these monstrosities in a sprawling suburb of Phoenix. She's very happy with it, and her suburban Costco life in general, and there are no lack of people with similar tastes. Yes, she's frau-ish. I have no problem with it, but it's a shame these homes are such energy drains.

Fuck you, OP. You're OVER.

These houses are CANCELLED.

Face it, McMansions are limited.

R95 That was trenchant. Do tell us more.

R60 My fault, I apologize. nrei.org

DL's favorite McMansion

It’ a Five Over 4 & A Door!

Article in today's Irish news comparing the current demise of McMansions to that of old castles:

"Once vast symbols of power and wealth in the Irish rural landscape, the mansions of the Anglo-Irish aristocrats relied on the old colonial order to keep them alive.

That economy revolved around big agri earnings, sucked into one enormous house; from hinterlands of thousands of acres and in tandem with cheap labour from a subjugated people. When that economy died, the big houses perished in numbers."

"Big statement rural abodes made a comeback for a time in the Tiger years. In no small way inspired by the big houses of old, they were built on the tops of hills and to the front of roads."

"Christened "McMansions" after an American derogatory term for the cheaply-built outsized homes which became popular Stateside in the 80s, the outsized one-offs sprang up all over Ireland between 1995 and 2007.

The McMansion fulfilled the same role as the Big House before it - it was a great big built shouty statement. The McMansion yelled: "Over here! Look at us! We've arrived!"

Our soap box Palladians were built at a time when construction work tended to be somewhat roughshod. As a result, they were often badly finished and today many are exhibiting damp problems and cracking, which could prove costly to fix."

"Now societal, economic and political changes in the pipeline threaten to make the Tiger McMansion extinct."

"In an age when A-rated homes are becoming more widespread, and McMansions become increasingly difficult to sell to an energy conscious population, the outsized abodes will be abandoned one at a time for better designed and insulated homes. As ivy steals over their cattle filled shells, they might warrant the odd tour bus stop: the guide to relate the folly of a reckless and temporarily wealthy class of the past, left high and dry by the winds of change."

What a bunch of basic lemmings in this thread, much like the McMansion frauen themselves. SUCH sophisticates teeheehee in their corners over the horrible McMansion while jumping at the bit to get their basic McCondo in any urban market dujour. Developers are Developers are Developers and you see trends mirrored in every local market.

Those that tut-tut McMansions still want unnecessarily large "master" bedrooms bigger than the living room of a 1950s middle-class house, full-size laundry rooms, enormous "open concept" kitchens, and palatial bathrooms. Sharing a sink? Children SHARING bedrooms?! The horror. That goes for people in urban and near-suburban markets just as it does in the sprawl of the ex-urban nu-money McMansion areas. Studio (lol) and 1 bedroom condos languish and price-chop just as hard as the McMansions.

There will always be the middle-classes that want eye-popping, big houses. The bigger trend is against driving so much and so far, and the massive yard upkeep. I would never want such a huge, sprawling yard, and most people don't want to pay what people did when they bought them factoring in the yardwork and commutes. They're not nitpicking over turrets and shit.

[quote] Those that tut-tut McMansions still want unnecessarily large "master" bedrooms bigger than the living room of a 1950s middle-class house, full-size laundry rooms, enormous "open concept" kitchens, and palatial bathrooms.

Uhhhm...no, they don't.

At some point people realized that every person living in the house did not need two bathrooms each.

R101 There were no calories in that diet thought and it still made me burp.

Wow r101 project much? None of the things you assume about the posters here have ever been stated.

They're over, like cheap oil.

They'll make good boarding houses when Trump makes The Great Depression 2, China Boogaloo.

Well, the declining big house trend obviously affected at least one Custom Luxury Homes "investor:" Fotis Dulos.

He couldn't manage to flip most of the McMansions he'd bought with his ex-wife's parents' money, so he killed his ex-wife to cut down on his monthly expenses (alimony amd child support for 5 sprogs).

fuck, R72. This is why I rent and at 49 have never owned a house. I don’t have the time or the desire to constantly spend my money and use my time to maintain a house.

Yes, owning a house can be a real money pit. There's always something that needs to be done.

Somewhere along the line, people got the idea that it was totally unacceptable for their crotchfruit to have to share a single bathroom in the hallway. The HORROR! So they wouldn't settle unless the house had an en suite bathroom the size of a spa in each individual bedroom for their precious darlings.

I grew up with my six siblings and two parents sharing a single bathroom. It ALWAYS smelled like shit from the last person who used it, despite air freshener.

Parents, sure, deserve a private adult bath. Kids? Fuck no. Unless you have a Duggar sized family, 1 bathroom for 2-4 kids is fine.

^ McMansions and Middle Class Monster Homes are mostly about status. When your kids each have their own bedrooms, even bathrooms, it's a bragging right.

Unless the kids are going to clean their own bathroom, they don’t need their own bathroom. That said, if someone has four kids, all going to school at the same time, I can see wanting two.

Any gay, childless McMansion dwellers here want to chime in to defend their investment?

Sure, why the fuck not

I bought mine because it’s in a high growth area. Since buying it, it’s doubled in value. I’m selling in a couple of years when I retire.

The delta between what I paid when I bought and the current value is measured as “half million”. So there’s nothing to defend. I’ve done my part and kept it maintained despite the ex’s overblown decorating (that’ll cost money to fix) and excessive Hyacinth Bucket grade gardening (more money), I’ll come out way ahead.

I’ll pay cash for my retirement home with plenty left over to cycle back into my retirement account.

R117 sounds like the exception though, and not the norm. Lucky her though

Thanks r117. Just curious: did you live there alone or with a partner? Was there a passle of children with their own rooms? Will your next home be decidedly smaller?

McMansions come from the false premise that you have to look successful first in order to be successful. Like when people wear designer clothes and believe it attracts more money and business opportunities (aka dress to impress).

What people fail to understand is that they are stuck with maintaining the usually shoddy built home.

R119. I own, and live there with a partner who did not contribute to the purchase. No kids. This was an economic investment for me.

My next home will almost certainly be a condo in a much smaller area, preferably near the beach but not in a popular resort area. Economical retirement strategy planning, whether I stay in the US or move abroad again.

R120. You’re obsessed with the idea new homes are “shoddy”. Do you have evidence to support this? I’ve owned two homes that I built. Neither was shoddy. All homes have issues and and all homes require maintenance.

Pretending an older home is magically better is wishful thinking. You have the same infrastructure issues and frequently more, especially in wiring and plumbing. One of our friends spent a happy month jack up his entire foundation of his older home. He’s an engineer so he did it himself but that would have been seriously expensive.

When his house was built, structural reinforcements, essentially bullards embedded as foundation support to ensure the houses don’t slide on the potomac highland clay wasn’t required. Homes more than 30 years old don’t have this, and it’s not unusual to find crumbling or shifting foundations as a result.

We also see a lot of leaking foundations due to the use of brick and block instead of poured concrete which was common until the 1970s. The questionable standards for home inspection and licensing of contractors (“got $5? Here’s a license”) allowed for unsafe construction of home additions ranging from decks, second floors, bay windows, roof replacements - many of which are later found to not meet code.

You will still find knob and tube wiring in old homes and that’s a complete gut to replace as it is unsafe and a fire hazard. This was still used in home construction through the 1940s here. Insurance companies will not underwrite a policy with it in the house, so you’re stuck until it’s remediated.

Virginia code requires smoke detectors with specific placement. The detectors have to be wired in, not just battery. Yet, many owners trying to sell will try to use battery models to slide by. Not happening. They have to have them wired in to pass inspection.

Now, how about those pipes? Virginia code requires only galvanized steel or cast iron pipes for the main, and no pcb or lead product for internal lines. You could get stuck replacing all your pipes to sell. Not fun. I had the water main from my street get busted by a utility working at my neighbor’s. Surprise! That’s the homeowner’s problem. To have the pipe dug up was over $15K. I was able to have the replacement pipe (pvc) shot under my driveway and through that “shoddy” foundation for $7K in a single day.

True, a couple posters are hung up on construction when the real horror of McMansions is their size and tacky architecture. Makes me wonder if they are actually covetous of a McMansion but just can't afford one, so are constantly knocking the "shoddy" construction.

No one covets a McMansion. That’s what the people who live in them think.

They sound like shit when you walk around in them and are the opposite of solid.

They're over like skinny jeans. Everyone hates them, but they endure.

It’s size and superficial, trendy qualities over quality. I can’t imagine they will age well.

R126 Oddly, in juxtaposition like skinny jeans - too often those who live in McMansions are just as much the improbable poseurs to upper middle class life.

Hey, I was a kid from the wrong side of the tracks, as were many of my neighbors. Put us on the couch and you know these houses are compensating for our crappy childhoods.

Will tiny houses really replace McMansions in the public's heart, though?

"You’re obsessed with the idea new homes are “shoddy”."

Not R120, but I absolutely refuse to believe a house built out of cheap shit particle board (glued together with formaldehyde), Tyvek and plastic/vinyl will withstand the ravages of time/weather better than a house built 100 years ago. As someone mentioned upstream, there are 100's of McMansions in the Philadelphia area alone built in the last 20 years that are now literally falling apart.

Go to St. Louis or Detroit and see the huge number of brick buildings that have been abandoned and left to rot but are still standing. No home built today would be able to withstand that kind of abuse.

why don’t they build brick houses anymore?

Only the rich can afford to build brick houses, they're very expensive. Most americans are middle class or poor. But dont tell them that, they all have the illusion they'll be rich one day.

R132 That’s it: time and materials. When you can frame a house with less than stellar labor in a couple of days, you reduce your costs. tyvek and siding in 2-3 days? Thats margin.

For the buyer, every 1000 linear ft of brickwork adds another $4-5k. Even a foundation wrap adds $20k. Why? Labor. That’s slow labor and keeps other people from working, ties up scaffolding and requires supervisors and often union workers.

So, sure the builder is going to push prefab panels, siding and anything that increases their margin.

Can I suggest that you are both right: that there are many oversized new houses that are built with the cheapest materials possible and thus sell for $289K in some newly developed exurb and others that are of equally questionable aesthetics but built with high end materials and top notch electrical, HVAC and plumbing systems that sell for $2.89 million in some desirable inner ring suburb.

Where is built is much more important than how it's built in this particular case, If I see a mcmansion in west hollywood I'll just buy it tear it down and build something else. Nobody values mcmansions, there's no aesthetic there, unlike a bungalow built in the 40s where people might buy in a bad area just so they can have a bungalow.

[quote]All I can think of is that lady who was stuck in her home elevator for days.

"Help! HELP! I'm trapped in a SMALL PRIVATE ELEVATAH!"

Story of the largest, most hideous McMansion of all.

McMansions are being built all around me. The developers buy older homes that have a proper yard and then they tear them down and build a new house that fills the entire lot. The people in the McMansions are living cheek to jowl with their neighbors, but I guess they only care about what's inside.

R138: That’s so odd. I’d rather have a big plot of land. Would choose privacy over another two bathrooms!

That said, my perfect detached home would only have one extra bedroom, and a big “kitchen room”. With the latter I mean an actual room where you can cook and eat. No more open kitchens, please!

R138, the new homes I see on tear down lots are usually ugly, but well-constructed. Like what R134 is describing. If a builder is paying several hundred k (or a million) for the lot, the construction quality is usually decent and the visible finishes are expensive. The architecture still usually pretty bad. Even new custom homes are usually hideous. I think in most cases people are buying the lot from the builder and there is minimal (if any) architect involvement.

Brick is just another type of exterior cladding. The brick isn’t structural. I’m not an engineer, but I don’t think anyone ever built solid brick homes in the US. There are probably some stone structures. I still see brick homes being built, although they are more expensive that the true McMansions in big developments. Those sometimes have a brick feature, like just an exterior surface under a protruding gable being brick, and they aren’t entirely clad in brick.

A general rule is that the heavier materials go on the bottoms, and the lighter materials on top. So it’s stone < brick < stucco < wood. Violating this principal (and having more than two materials) is highly suggestive of McMansion-ness.

R140 and R141 are correct. Brick isn’t structural, and isn’t in hurricane or earthquake zones.

When you see a new development and select a lot, there will be a choice of 2-3 model designs (at most) that have been Pre-sited for that lot. That means the city or country has already approved those designs for that lot. You don’t get to build something else. Don’t like those choices? Look at another lot or a different development by a different builder.

Lot price is about half the appraised value. Builders do cut corners and sometimes it’s a pain in the ass. My biggest complaint has been the windows. I was lucky to only replace a couple so far. Some of my neighbors have replaced all their windows. They’re Wood, weren’t primed and sealed before installation.

Imagine having 42 windows to replace at an average of $1800 each. I’m pretty lucky so far but I know I have an exterior transom ($5000), sliding door ($5000) and French door ($7500) that are looking “probable” along with two windows ($1800 each). Why so much? Architectural review board requirements that we use wood windows, which are more expensive. I was successful at persuading our board to approve vinyl class windows which was less expensive and since these are (shoot me) painted white cheap pine windows - nobody cares.

^ ugh "vinyl clad" not "vinyl class".

Here's an all-American beauty for your reading pleasure

Generally construction quality is inferior to the materials used in older homes. Some obviously feel the modern trade-offs, as in better insulation, new wiring and plumbing make up for it. Despite the status many Americans see in them, the designs are very awkward, unbalanced, and proportions are all wrong compared to the more modest homes by famous or well regarded architects. R144 is a prime example of the utter visual chaos they are known for. Weird rooflines, lack of symmetry, etc. Though the home in R144 's pick isn't beastly huge, it certainly has all the hallmarks.

It makes perfectly good sense their popularity is waning with fewer marriages amongst these younger generations, and certainly less children. The preponderance of these have completely ruined small developments, and beach or lake communities. Many of my American friends refer to them as "puffy houses".

yes - it's all about farmhouse now - Chip and Joanna Gaines style - for now, until it's not

check out this gem

Grew up in a postwar all=brick house. While not glamorous or huge, they are solidly built and very livable. Tons of them in suburban Philly and DC. Unlike NY and Boston where they used siding, I think the brick postwar development are extremely more solid than anything post-1980.

Wow R147 – especially the floor plans are mindblowing.

R142 I don't what market you are in, but the price of the lot X 4 = sales price is the accepted formula in urban/suburban NC. Interestingly boomers are having a hard time selling these McMansions, but they want to downsize to 3000 sf, not into a "cottage." Old habits die hard it would seem. I'm perfectly happy in my 2 bedroom cottage.

RE: materials. When I bought my second rental house, a 1950 900 sq foot house with an unfinished basement and asked my Russian workman to finish the basement (make an egress window, frame and put up sheet rock to make a bedroom and bathroom down there), he rented a concrete saw to make the window opening in the foundation. . He kept saying to me in his broken Russian, "dis concrete so hard - and thick - two inches thicker than most foundations". It's just a tiny little Minimalist Traditional. But it's solidly built with good materials. Hardwood floors, really thick and strong concrete floors and foundation in the basement, tightly constructed. Even with expansion to three bedroom 2 bath from two bedroom, one bath, it's very cheap to heat. It has always rented the day it is listed, because it's well-maintained and very charming. (White picket (vinyl) fence and the whole nine yards.). I think people of middle incomes now are looking for low maintenance and low utilities, because they have a lot of other debt and expenses).

R151 - who do you rent it to? People who can afford to rent those kinds of houses tend to have money to buy in the Northeast.

But 100% agree that they are much more solidly built than the McMansion developments of today. I think some Californians here are talking about tear-down lot Mcmansions - which are much higher end than the McMansion developments of 100+ houses by Toll Brothers and the other corporate housing companies.

Regarding brick construction - true, since around WWII brick is generally used as a veneer cladding on a wood frame building; but all brick homes were built all the time in the 1800s - most of the row houses / brownstones you see in older cities are masonry construction - and those structures were originally built as single family homes.

I lived for decades in an all brick row house built in 1849 and still in fine shape - the floor joists sag a bit in the middle but they are over 150 years old. The walls are built of three layers of brick that interlock in both directions. Inside originally there was lath and plaster on top, but the brick is mostly exposed now.

Went to a party in one this weekend in a vast Faux Chateaux (what my mom called McMnsions) and it we all congregated in one room. The host kept trying to get us to the billiard room and it wasn't happening. When a line at the bathroom formed he thrilled to tell us there were 4 more. It was a little sad and seemed vacant

Quality over quantity. A 2BR cottage in a great area is preferable to a McMansion in an exurban development. McMansions also tend to ignore the yard - which is the point of a house rather than an apartment to me.

The name alone is disgusting

The concept should be criminal

The residents liquidated.

r144's link is nightmarish. I would go out of my mind in a house like that.

It's not something I'd "invest" in.

49er Boomer here, Class of '71. Lived at home into Graduate School. Married, one car, lived in urban row-home. Then moved to new version, a townhouse. Could finally afford a house in suburbia when I was 39 and my husband 48 years old. Now, at 70, I'm adding a deck.

I see MUCH younger married couples buying the 4br/2 1/2 ba houses now.

[quote] "Millennials have different homebuying priorities than baby boomers: The younger generation prefers convenience and quality over size."

Millennials don’t have the money to buy houses.

They’re not going to get “quality” homes. Such homes haven’t been built for years are not being and are being torn down.

[quote] are not being and are being torn down.

are NOW being torn down

[quote] A 2BR cottage in a great area

Does not exist.

If it’s a great area, it was added on to or torn down for a bigger house.

Show me an affordable 2 bedroom cottage In a great area.

In the Los Angeles area, we have what are derisively called "Persian Palaces," which are McMansions that have such features as soaring grand columns, cornices, terraces, and lace ironwork, favored by newly arrived people from the Middle East.

[quote] A 2BR cottage in a great area

This is boomer advice along the lines of "You've got to get out there & knock on doors and hand them your resume! Just walk into businesses and hand them your CV. Smile. Be confident. Dress well. Let them know PERSONALLY, face-to-face, that you are a go-getter & a hard worker who can be relied on. They'll be impressed by your initiative!"

Suuuure, Pops. I'll do that. Then I'll look for a 2 bedroom cottage in a great area. It will be a fantastic investment! I don't know why everyone doesn't buy one."

The typical Armenian family home in LA is a scaled down version of the Persian Palace, but also features soaring columns and lace ironwork.

brother in his mid 50's just bought a house along with his wife for somewhere between 350 to 400 thousand (which here in the midwest) is like a million or more easy in l.a., n.y, miami, etc...

the entire family (we sound jealous i know!) wonders a few questions 1) why are they moving from their smaller house to buying a new house for that amount of money when they are already in their mid 50's?

2) they have no kids yet the new house has 5 bathrooms, 5 bedrooms, tons of land and on and on?

3) he and his wife both used to be high school teachers but have not taught in over a decade and gosh knows high school teachers don't make that much money and they now for years now quote "work from home doing computer stuff" but no one knows EXACTLY what they do, how much money they make and so on, and your not really allowed to ask either because they think it's a invasion of privacy rude question simply asking what exactly DO they do at home on the computer??!

4) the wife received money when her father passed away, they had a big ole farm, but that was years and years ago, and my brother and this wife spent alot of time traveling europe and the states years ago, so just how much money DID SHE get from her father's sold farm and the will?...

SO are they going to be paying it off when they are in their 70s? 80s? or somehow someway they have money from somehow somewhere various sources, including selling their former home, which i believe they were still paying that off! very odd situation?

PORN

The only house you can buy in my city under $200,000 is one of those one-story thingies that's half garage.

Having just bought a right size for us 1600 square foot 1961 ranch house after months of looking it seemed like everything in our price range was either too small or way too big. We just have no need for a 5 bedroom 4 bath house and apparently they’re not that easy to sell in our neighborhood (not new builds, but 80s & 90s McMansions). Everything we saw that was medium size would get sold quickly.

People from Middle East, Central Asia & the subcontinent dont want any grass or bushes. They think lawns are stupid, with people putting fertilizer, pesticide, herbicide & lime on them to grow green grass. They also think mowing grass & tending to lawns, bushes, trees & gardens is unmanly. They hardscape the entire surface of the property. House, driveways, pools, patios, columns, staircases, porches, porticoes. Any greenery is potted. A relative of my husband makes a good living growing & selling potted trees in Southern California. Fig trees, date trees, olive trees and other fruit trees. They don’t see the point of growing anything that doesn’t provide food. They don’t care about local wildlife. It’s all about men not doing any work at home because it’s leisure time for them. The women just want to sweep the outdoors with a broom.

Lush landscaping of the average home is a European thing,

<- Well, when you're from a land that looks like the surface of Mars, green things are alien.

WTF R166. Why do you think you're entitled to know the specific details of a relative's finances and/or retirement plan? And why do you even care how much money they make/inherited or how they earn a living? It's none of your damn business. Good for them for shutting down your rude, tacky, gossipy interrogations. Your relatives sound like they managed their money well and you're just spitting jealous.

R172, because it's MORE then just this.. it's the whole secrecy of it all! NO ONE is allowed to go over their house unannounced,if one did they would literally not open the door and they would be beyond offended and hold it against you FOREVER! they do NOT invite even most of the family except for 1 sister and my father and we're talking at best a couple of times a year, i myself was never invited at their old home that they lived in for over 5 years?! how is this normal? THIS IS YOUR FLESH AND BLOOD AND YOUR PARENTS, BROTHERS AND SISTERS?!.... WHO have never done anything to them to warrant this.

Sent birthday cards never get equal replies back...

when they lived overseas for a couple of years, they literally had no mailbox, no phone, so the only way you could reach them even if it was a emergency was sending them a email, a email they MIGHT MIGHT reply to weeks later and they thought nothing of this, how rude it was!

they ONLY show up no matter the occasion if they want to, whether christmas, thanksgiving, a parent's birthday, etc.

And lastly, when my mother passed away last year, and since her passing, they have NOT DONE ONE SINGLE THING to help out with my mother's affairs! NOTHING! ZILCH! NADA!

THEY act like it's them against the world, and beyond selfish, self absorbed... ALL of this including my previous post just doesn't add up to "normalcy" and reeks of "mystery"...

But yet when they DO show up for a family gathering, they act like everything is "A" okay, but don't say or do anything that is REMOTELY negative towards them, (i.e. why haven't you done anything for our mother and why didn't you even come around when she was sick!)...they are both extremely high and mighty, (manners manners are a ultimate for them) in manner, you have to TALK to them and come to THEM or they won't talk, they give nasty mean spirited comments and advice when not even asked for on YOUR (meaning my family's life) but don't you do that to them!.

So it is any wonder their secrecy and privacy and what not doesn't spur questions among their OWN flesh and blood, although we never say anything to them! it's NOT jealousy, it's anger at them more then anything. I sometimes wonder if they are in a cult! in fact, once when we were talking, my brother said to me "well if you knew what i believed in you probably wouldn't want to be friends with me or your brother!' what the heck does that mean?

okay, i'm done venting...

R170, what absolute bullshit you just wrote - at least for the Middle Eastern people. My old neighbors had fig trees. They were always tending to them and would talk about family and their neighbors having land and olive/fig trees in Palestine before it was taken from them. And their story was not unique.

My neighbors now are Asian and yes, they do pour cement on everything - but at least they're nice and quiet people.

r174 are you even familiar with LA? That is not bullshit at all. They cement the yards around their tacky palaces.

[quote] My old neighbors had fig trees

Did you deliberately skip this part so you could go on your little tirade, R174?

“Any greenery is potted. A relative of my husband makes a good living growing & selling potted trees in Southern California. Fig trees, date trees, olive trees and other fruit trees. They don’t see the point of growing anything that doesn’t provide food.”

McMansions kinda make sense in LA. Maximum square footage in a lawn-less environment. A weird hybrid of dense suburban / urban.

The northeast US likes their lawns. Maybe not very “green” but the 1+ acre zoning creates beautiful lush neighborhoods with lots of trees and greenery. I much prefer it to the packed in houses of new developments in the south and west.

Swings and roundabouts.

They’ll be back!

R173 - it sounds like your brother & sis in law are difficult and annoying. There are always two sides, but from what you have laid out, from your point of view, you should just disengage and expect nothing from them - cut them off if that’s what will make you happiest.

It seems like you expect certain treatment and obligations from flesh & blood - well they seem to have different values & expectations than you and possibly the rest of your family - so again, withdraw, expect nothing, and only extend effort and contact to the extent that you don’t mind it not being reciprocated.

But, from the way you wrote your posts it seems you and the rest of your family MAY like drama, gossip and minding each other’s business. That MAY be a reason your brother and his wife have withdrawn from the family. I could be wrong; but besides disengaging from them you should look at why you keep caring in the face of so much evidence that they really don’t.

They're over like bootcut jeans. People still wear them.

They don’t like you R173. You’re a but if a drama queen with the ALL CAPS liberally used in your post.

When I bought a house only 20 minutes away from my sister &. BIL I asked them over. It was difficult to pin them down. We finally agreed on a day and when they were 1hour late I called & my sister told me a vacuum cleaner salesman had shown up at their house & her husband let him in and they were still watching the demonstration. They showed up after another hour, saying the husband had bought a $1200 vacuum cleaner (they couldn’t afford that). They only stayed about a half an hour and left saying they had to go to a party for their friend.

I invited them a few other times & they never came over. When I had my pool installed I told my sister to come over any time. She didn’t even have to call, just come on over and jump in the pool. The,only time she came was once per summer when my mother was visiting. Once my husband filled out a bunch of forms to help my sister’s bf (after her divorce) to get health insurance. The guy was a crazy hyperactive nut & didn’t even know how to get forms, let alone fill them out. My husband had my son (aged 6) with him & said he’d stop buy at her house on the way from the city to our house at 11am on Saturday and drop off the completed forms. When he got there the blinds were all pulled down and nobody answered the door. Finally, after3 sets if knocks, my nephew woke up, opened the door, took the papers said “thanks” and closed the door & went back to bed. My husband was pissed. If you stopped at one of his relatives houses at11 am on a Saturday, they’d have coffee, orange juice & bagels waiting for you.

Finally we accepted that they didn’t like us. They drink & gamble, we don’t. They party all weekend, we don’t. They waste their money, we don’t.

We stopped asking them to come over. We saw them every Christmas. Everything was fine, they acted like great friends (in order to get the $$ we handed out) and we didn’t see them until the next year. If there was a family event like a wedding they’d be there acting as if we always hang out together.

When my mother died, my sister talked about me behind my back to my mother’s family & now none of them talk to me. I figure that, like my sister, they probably never liked me either.

Sometimes you’re that family member they don’t like. Your SIL probably hates you.

Well that was a weird tangent. Now back to McMansions. Every realtor who shows me one over 5 years old mentions the issues with the stucco coating they slapped on. Basically it’s 2x4s with cheap wrapping. They put trendy trinkets in the kitchen and bathroom and new home buyers get glossy-eyed and ignore that’s its crap construction. After 5-10 years the stucco seeps in moisture, gets moldy and rots the house. They lose value more than any older homes.

R179 and R181... thank you for your long thought out responses...

all i know is that they are "different' and i've never personally done anything to them my brother and his wife... he my brother wasn't like this growing up, and it's odd that my brother became this way when he married this woman who rarely rarely talks or smiles and who is ALWAYS with my brother, can't leave him out of her sight anywhere?!.. like i said very strange. and NO, we are not a gossipy want to know everyone's business either! it's simple family and human nature when a family member is THAT secretive, THAT private, and THAT selfish and self absorbed, it's THEIR actions that start it all, we the rest of our family are just reacting to them.

guess i just need to direct attention elsewhere from them, it's not so much how they treat me, but how they treat our parents, my surviving father and recently passed away mother! the brain can't comprehend such self absorption and narcissism because neither my brother or his wife are stupid. shame on them!

but yet, they'll be there for the money handout in the end no doubt.

Anyway good luck to them on their expensive house purchase. SORRY one and all for diverting away from the original topic!

R182 EIFS is the exterior siding product

I grew up in McMansions my whole childhood and adolescence. All my friends lived in them too. Some of us were upper middle class, some were just middle class.

They all had grand entry hall areas that went two stories up with a communal family gathering area. The outer rooms had wall-to-wall carpet which created an amazing sense of quiet. There was central air. Everything in the house was new and worked great. We felt safe with so many houses all around us. We all had our yards and back yards with fences. Some people had pools. Our house was big enough to create the ability to go off and have our own private spaces, which is important.

I personally felt the neighborhoods looked lovely, particularly at dusk and dawn, or in winter with snow and of course the greenery of warm weather. These are wonderful memories, and I always felt the layout of these house helped great good families.

I've seen examples of "awful" McMansions, especially in the last decade, but I've never understood the all-or-nothing hatred of them. They can and do create wonderful homes and communities if done right.

Interesting R185. I grew up pre-McMansion so appreciate the perspective. I get they may be more family friendly. Not really made for gay couples. The new Levittowns for the middle and upper middle class. Will be interesting to see what happens to them all as boomers downsize. Seems like they are specifically made for families. The 15-20 year old McMansions near me are selling for not much more than they were bought for - despite overall price appreciation in the area.

Same here, R185. I grew up in one (a smaller version) and raised my own kids in one. We chose the area because of the excellent schools. The kids often remark that their childhood was "idillic", so I have no regrets.

My husband and I are recent empty nesters. We have no plans to move until we have to. Someone comes in to clean bi-weekly and we have a landscaper for lawn and garden maintenance. The neighborhood is safe and quiet with just the right amount of green space. Our house is solid and well built (and no stucco, thank God). Why leave?

[quote]because it's MORE then just this.. it's the whole secrecy of it all! NO ONE is allowed to go over their house unannounced,if one did they would literally not open the door

I wouldn't either. How rude and tactless. Leave these people the fuck alone. They obviously want to keep you and the rest of your pushy, meddling family at arm's length.

R188, we the family are "pushy and meddling" because we want to say Hi and how are you doing and have a interest in our own flesh and blood by wanting to see them in person even if it's a spur of the moment we were in the neighborhood thing? they wouldn't and don't even invite us over FORMALLY! ...

.even when we call and leave messages to see how they are they never answer, we're lucky if they get back to us? and if they do a couple of weeks later at best? SORRY, SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG HERE and it's NOT us the rest of the family it's them! this is not normal behavior when the family has never done anything wrong to them to warrant this hateful self absorbed behavior from the two. This is not how a family is suppose to act towards each other.

oh sure "take the hint" is fine, but the blame lies on them, not us the family let's make that very very clear!

But as i posted earlier, they'll be their when the will is read and the money divided out won't they! oh yeah, and they want to borrow my big car to help them move into their new mcmansion! is that how it works? ignore us, treat us like nobodies, and so on, but "where's my money when dad passes and my share and oh can i borrow your car too next week!"...

People who drop by unannounced deserve a vicious face-slapping. That is so rude and inconsiderate. ALWAYS text or call first, to see if it's ok to come over.

R189 - Dropping over unannounced is rude. You seem like a willing doormat - don’t lend then your car. Just because people are related doesn’t mean they actually enjoy each other’s company. From the tone of your posts you seem like you may enjoy being mistreated because it gives you something to complain about - move on from obsessing about your brother, drop him and get on with it.

God R189 reminds me of the worst of my family. Believe that family is the most Important thing and nothing should ever be hidden and not shared. Thank God I left town and realized family is not the most important thing and good mental health requires strong boundaries to keep them out of my business.

R192... sorry for YOUR personal experience, your right family is NOT the most important thing when they have treated you badly, however, in my situation, that is NOT the case, my brother and his wife are the ones who have treated the rest of us, the family badly.. any and all reactions on our part stems from THEIR ORIGINAL treatment of us, we are just left to wonder "WHY"?...

Guess i was raised differently? raised to believe that family is the first love of one's life and should remain one of love for the rest of one's life along with a significant other, boyfriend, husband, girlfriend, wife. when it's one person from a huge family that acts this way, is it any wonder we wonder WHY?....

Some of you who are posting replies come from a experience of hurt thus anger from personal experiences of your families, or a chip on your shoulder for whatever reasons, i see your point if this is the case! however, once again, in my case, it's my brother whose the cause of all this and his wife, the originators of all of it.

I've said my peace on this subject, but i know i'm in the right as is the rest of my family, who only show love, attention to my brother and his wife, but in return get silence, self righteousness, unprovoked opinions on everything we are doing that is wrong or not up to their particular standards, and the occasional insults directed at us as well.

Maybe their just assholes, one wonders why and how he (my brother) changed. oh well i guess...

My big concern with McMansions, other than all the wasted space, is the future maintenance. They all have complex roof lines. That means that when the time comes to reroof the houses, the project will cost a fortune.

There's also little sense of neighborhood. In my older neighborhood with modest homes, kids walk up and down the street to play with one another, they walk to and from a nearby grade school, they walk down to a neighborhood grocery store to buy candy or a comic book. I never see kids walking on McMansion blocks. Mom piles the lot into a gimongous minivan or SUV and away they go to soccer, ballet, band practice, or whatever in those kinds of blocks. On mine, neighbors come outside in pleasant weather to work in their yards, rake leaves, shovel snow, weed the garden, and converse with passers by, and many homes were built with front porches. You never see a McMansion with a front porch. They were seemingly designed for people to drive into the garage, and scatter to their separate bedrooms and spaces to huddle in front of their TVs or devices without ever interacting with others in the vicinity.

[quote]There's also little sense of neighborhood. In my older neighborhood with modest homes, kids walk up and down the street to play with one another, they walk to and from a nearby grade school, they walk down to a neighborhood grocery store to buy candy or a comic book.

How ancient are you gramps? No one does this anymore.....in any neighborhood.

R191, it's their safe and quiet and self absorbed self righteous enclave away from the world and "lesser" people. it's NOT just a home, but a save private quite haven insulated from the outside and their problems. fortress mentality.

Seriously, r195. Not since the 1980s. Well, white kids anyway.

We’re being trolled , guys.

Sounds good to me, R196.

They keep getting built, in spite of new laws against them.

They may be over, but they are still standing. Do they become future crack houses?

All real estate will be "over" in about a year.

They'll become low-rent boarding houses during this impending depression, and when adult children and their kids move back in with their boomer parents.

Many will be converted to small neighborhood hospitals, clinics and quarentine stations during the Virus Age.

The cement box McMegaMansions have become popular in the Hamptons now, replacing the gables & gambrels.