What are some class markers in the United States?

I guess speech patterns are another tell-tale sign.

How fat they are.

The US ain’t the UK, idiot OP.

Food choices.

Tattoos

Big hair ("The higher the hair, the closer to god.")

Really good dyed hair.

Nude pumps (flashy shoes are a sure sign of lower class.)

Dresses with shoulder cut-outs

Deep tans

Men with necklaces

Ratio of tats to teeth

Busy prints in a size horrendous lower the tone.

Non-trendy clothing and hairstyles.

Personal names. You can safely assume that Tammy and her friends Crystal, Mikayla, and Madysyn are NOCD.

CLASS by Paul Fussell is a great guide to the finer points and subtle distinctions.

Older, well preserved expensive cars = upper class

Newest, cheapest version of expensive car make = lower middle class

I think R2 nailed it with weight. Anything else is a very distant second. I also think it is getting harder to tell, especially with young Americans (partially because it’s easier for them to stay thin compared to older people). Because almost everyone has decent teeth now and there is so much focus on appearance-related activities like going to the gym and YouTube makeup videos. Look at rich people’s kids. The girls have fake (albeit expensive) blonde hair and fake boobs and fake tans and overly white teeth (looking at you, Ivanka). The boys aren’t far behind. Even some old-money types.

R10, wrong. The OP said "class" not "wealth". Fake tans, obviously died hair, too white teeth are indicators of lower class regardless of wealth. There is a reason that Ivanka and her ilk are not welcome in the best homes.

Actually, weight isn't an indicator. To a degree, body type is. Better class people exercise through tennis, swimming, riding, etc. They do not have gym bodies. If they do go to a gym, they are conscious of not bulking up. Biceps on a woman are considered very low class. It is fine to have toned upper arms, but with all of the formal events, one cannot look absurd in an evening gown. They may be overweight, but they are rarely obese. Particularly on men, it tends to be the result of heavy drinking rather than food.

If "old money types" do these things, it is a sign of rebellion and it is usually squashed pretty quickly. Doors close quickly and tightly if one strays too far from the rules.

[quote] Better class people exercise through tennis, swimming, riding, etc. They do not have gym bodies.

Ahem...

^^^ And yes, I'm aware we're talking about the United States here, but doesn't US Old Money try to model their behavior after English Old Money?

Diana eschewed all of the class marker fitness regimes outlined by R11, and our own DLers have stories of spotting JFK Jr. at the gym.

I can tell immediately by the way people speak and what they talk about

Just to clarify, we’re talking about class not klass, as in a class system.

Upper class people don’t have degrees from online colleges, own dogs (not reptiles or pittbulls), don’t yell and get emotional and aren’t trendy. They’re not putting their wealth on the line for the latest trends. Hear that, people of West Hollywood?

Oh and no long stem roses.

R15, upper class people have dogs.

Well owning a pearl white, slim line telephone with last number redial for start.

Shoes! Those are always a dead giveaway for me.

R12, don't embarrass yourself by being an idiot. Princess Diana in that (staged) photo clearly does not have a gym body. Google JFK, Jr. You will see that he has a very natural body. In many photos he barely has any abs at all, in others, they are clearly from sit ups, not some gym torture device. He was athletic, but not a gym rat.

And note that I clearly wrote, "If they do go to a gym, they are conscious of not bulking up."

Oops, I meant upper class people have dogs. Just got out of bed and drinking Sanka.

Sorry, I should have written "had a natural body" since he is dead.

[quote]Fake tans, obviously died hair,

Who killed the hair?

[quote]Well owning a pearl white, slim line telephone with last number redial for start.

Is there an eighth previous number redial?

Yes R19, but you also said that upper class people get fit through any number of activities that Diana abhorred; instead she opted for the gym like the plebs.

Natural athletic body, will eat fruit (even young people) and not snacks, great hair. R11 nails it.

It gets pretty obvious after 40. Some young people may confuse you, but it doesn't last in the long run.

Some telephone give you a choice of which number to redial

LOL, R16

Poise. People who grow up being ‘trained’ appear comfortable and project a steadiness that comes with lots of study.

Taste in things generally.

NASCAR is a dead giveaway, for example.

Donald Trump, Jr: non-U.

Donald Trump II, U.

Upper class people have a natural elitist attitude.

Skiing is something they are wont to do rather than snowboard or anything like that

Well groomed but not necessarily attractive

Generally work for or with family.

Secretly live at home or in a house/condo purchased by family or do so until they can afford their own or just inherit something

Not quick to anger but when they do they just go silent and push through people / ignore everyone

Get really pissed off about minor details or things of minor importance because everything of major importance is always secure

The obsession with "class" here reeks of age and is hilarious.

[quote]Get really pissed off about minor details or things of minor importance because everything of major importance is always secure

This one is really interesting

Being able to play the piano

Height, especially long legs

Short fingernails without polish on women

Casual references to family ski vacations

Arrogance

"Summer" used as a verb: U.

"Summer" as girl's name: Non-U.

No f bombs or swearing in public.

Not having loud conversations in public and certainly not on a cell phone in a public area.

Class is how you treat other people. There are plenty of rich people with no class, and plenty of poor people with loads of class.

R31 finds our interest in class ‘hilarious’ yet offers 8 highly thought out observations on the topic. Curious.

Trump supporters are seen as extremely low class in America.

On DL, "class" is always used in the Mitfordian sense.

R36 is more about manners and integrity than about being U or non-U.

[quote]Class is how you treat other people. There are plenty of rich people with no class, and plenty of poor people with loads of class.

This along with "good manners are about making others comfortable" is a sure marker of middle class thinking.

Class in America comes down to one thing = money. Nothing else matters. The end.

Of course, R36, you are correct. still, there are markers of social class. Upbringing, education (usually but not always private schools), and especially the way a person carries himself/herself. It's an attitude of confidence, noblesse oblige if you will.

Clothes are still markers. For men, it's knowing exactly what to wear to various functions without having to ask.

A lot of the criteria people are throwing out are pretty stupid. For example, everything r33 listed, with the exception of family ski vacations, applies to me/my family but we are not upper class or old money. Also, we all have good teeth by nature, no need for braces, so the ability to afford dental work does not figure in (besides which, plenty of not particularly privileged Americans manage to get braces for their kids ' teeth if needed).

[quote]Being able to play the piano

I'm from an upper middle class background; none of our family members can play the piano. That one's truly a bizarre statement.

Zip code.

Anyone attempting to guess a person's social class has none.

R44, you are upper middle class, not upper class. Upper class children are taught piano as a matter of discipline. It has nothing to do with musical talent or music appreciation. The purpose to to teach discipline and good work habits.

r43 I suppose it's more than just straight teeth. At age, say, 50, it's obvious if one has had regular dental work over the course of their life or not.

And I agree with someone up thread who said guessing class based on appearance becomes easier as one ages.

Clean, well-maintained fingernails.

Vacationing in Cuernavaca: U.

Vacationing in Cancun: Non-U.

[quote]Height, especially long legs

Now that is ridiculous.

Class does not equal wealth. I always use my theory about the inverse relationship between volume and class. The "real Housewives" might have money but no class, same goes for King Cheeto and his ilk. So whether it is a trailer or a high rise, class cannot be bought.

Upper class:

Short fingernails with no polish (women)

Bespoke clothing that is expensive, neutral, classic, and worn for years because it never goes out of style and is of fine quality.

Short haircuts after 40 (women) and short hair and clean-shaven (men).

No tattoos or piercings, except for single ear piercings for women.

Not upper-class:

Everything not mentioned above.

No arrest record

Being 'known' only for charity work/philanthropy

I do think weight and diet are the most consistent trait. Not muscles or looks - more healthy eating and not obese.

R47 I can confirm the relationship upper class has to piano and discipline. I was given piano lessons as a child (for these reasons). Turns out I had a very good musical ear but wasn't disciplined. I was always very rebellious and still am, I guess. I dropped out after 5 years. Now, decades later, I'm taking up piano again, because yes I am still musical. Guess what... no matter what age, it's always going to be about discipline. Most piano teachers are like this, especially if they teach young kids. Still. I'm glad I can play music.

Sorry for the OT. Carry on.

Not just in America, R38.

R31 "Get really pissed off about minor details or things of minor importance because everything of major importance is always secure "

This one is described at length in Tender Is The Night. It is scary. Those who have nothing to worry about will NEVER worry about others or anyone who is worse off, yet they will focus on the most insignificant detail that might make their evening less-than-perfect. Truly scary.

I was hoping this thread would be as awful as it has been so far

Dataloungers suffer greatly from Class Anxiety Syndrome, constantly fretting about what is or isn't Upper Class, which is something that people who actually are don't ever think about. ("Do these shoes make me look middle class?")

And the ones that might have a clue are usually clinging to social mores from the 70s and/or to what's common for people in their 60s and 70s.

Fussell's book as per R8 still holds up some 30 years after it was written.

The three most obvious class markers, ones that even Helen Keller can see, are:

1. Certain types of tattoos-- big words across the collarbone, tramp stamps, etc.

2. Oddly spelled names -- Madysen, McKenseee et al

3. Hair styles -- anything other than traditional "businessman" haircuts on men, long and straight on women.

Most of the others stuff you can't see.

No student loans. No credit card debt. Internships procured by mom and dad that turn into good-paying jobs, the down payment gift that allows them to buy the million dollar home, the trust fund that allows them to pretend to be a "freelance journalist", not realizing that many of the things they do and own are exclusive or expensive.

It is laughable that money would enter the answer as an element necessary to be considered a person with class.

Pointing to the White House.

Grey Poupon.

I suppose one has to define what a "short haircut" is, but it is not unusual for an upper class woman to have the shoulder length bob with headband her entire life.

True r62. I remember Charlotte’s MIL, Bunny, with that hairstyle from SATC. She looked like an upper class east coast bitch.

Waterside suppers with riparian entertainment.

R63, Bunny? Really? That is my mother's nickname (Elizabeth). Very old money name.

"Upper class children are taught piano as a matter of discipline. It has nothing to do with musical talent or music appreciation. The purpose to to teach discipline and good work habits"

Nonsense, there are plenty of upper class people who've never been near a piano.

The snobs here always associated the upper class with "good" traits, but there are plenty of awful rich people.

For R51

[quote]You know what you look like to me, with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube. A well-scrubbed, hustling rube with a little taste. Good nutrition has given you some length of bone, but you're not more than one generation from poor white trash, are you, Agent Starling?

See? Even 'I' know long legs (length of bone) = UC

[quote] Upper class children are taught piano as a matter of discipline.

Even presuming this were universally true of the upper class, lots of middle class kids learn piano, so "can play piano" is not some surefire indicator of being UC. Same with long legs; it's hardly as though there are no tall, long-legged middle and lower class people walking around.

R18, a street criminal said he would decide which men to mug based on their shoes.

R62 women over 30, especially TV anchors, with hair below the shoulders look like whores,

Sharpies are a real class marker. In fact, they are the classiest markers ever made. Everyone knows that.

I grew up in a wealthy area and the interactions between people (particularly the women) in the area were always very interesting. In order to live (and live well) in the area, it required a certain level of income. So living in the area generally meant a family was wealthy. However, whether a person/family was ultimately taken in to the core social group was really a matter of demeanor and proper social interaction. In my opinion, class has more to do with social behavior than any actual indices of wealth (some of the crap written above is ludicrous). There were several families who moved into the neighborhood but, despite their wealth, there was a roughness about them that just rubbed people the wrong way and ultimately kept them out of the core social group. People who were bombastic, loud, cantankerous, hostile, etc. were always avoided. These people usually exhibited the typical "trainwreck" behavior. The fact is, there is a demeanor and personality that American's view as classy; some people have it, some people don't. And money doesn't mean you have it.

Americans, dang that was classy as shit

The WASP upper class tend to have slim, naturally athletic bodies, with long limbs. The women are often slim hipped, with moderate bosoms and buttocks.

Pronounced curves are vulgar and suspiciously “ethnic”.

[quote]shoulder length bob with headband her entire life

We've got some time travelers from 1992 in our midst. I retired my headbands 25 yrs ago.

Speaking well-modulated, grammatical, standard English without a heavy regional accent.

I'm not an American, but I think this one holds true for most of the English-speaking world.

Yuck, these descriptions of "class" seem very artificial. I prefer integrity.

R75, that is way past shoulder length and Mrs. Clinton was never upper class.

She isn't upper class but Darlene Shiley (PBS Trust) has the haircut without the headband.

[quote] it is not unusual for an upper class woman to have the shoulder length bob with headband her entire life.

Remember my comment about older DLers commenting on the way things were in the 60s and 70s and/or things that are true of people in their 60s and 70s?

This.

No one my age has that hairstyle though many of their mothers do.

R77, Integrity is part of the old money subset of upper class. One of the reasons that we are so insular is that one is not only judged by the company one keeps, one is responsible for it. If you invite a person to dinner (let's say the person's name is Trump) and a guest gets involved in a bad business deal, you are responsible. The fact that the person was under your roof, means that the person is presumed trustworthy and sound.

"The WASP upper class tend to have slim, naturally athletic bodies, with long limbs. The women are often slim hipped, with moderate bosoms and buttocks."

Naturally athletic? What does that mean? And there is no correlation between WASP ancestry and long legs. Where do people get this shit?

R79, I can look out at our dock and see three women 16-25 with that hair style. You need to travel in better circles.

From watching old movies on TCM R81. That or that Preppy Handbook book.

Don't you know by now that DLers are mostly working class Flyoverstanis and that their descriptions of the American upper middle and upper classes are as accurate as you or I discussing the ways of Laplanders.

LOL. Good one R82.

R79 In that post they were referring to women of a certain age, which they did neglect to mention.

R53s comment had the hair on women down. So your demographic based observation is askew.

HYP - Harvard Yale Princeton

Still. 🙄

Vegan

Lululemon

Equinox premium locations

Old money people don't go out of their way to look rich; they just accept that they are and get on with things. Strivers will do anything to *appear* rich, like lease a Mercedes or go in debt to pay for an expensive suit or first class ticket or suite in what they consider a fancy hotel. And order Cristal at the bar and make sure everyone sees them.

Social class in America has become much less fluid than it was in the past as the gap between the top 15-20% and everyone else has widened considerably. So it's all much more incestuous and not nearly as WASPy,.

And R86, as a graduate of the "P" in that acronym, we would add an "S" (Stanford ) for that to be true today and even then, the falloff to other Ivies and schools like Duke is much less drastic than it was in your time.

And "my mother's name is Bunny. Very old money name" pretty much sums up the parody this thread has become.

On the rare occasion that I see an upper class person at an airport—it is unmistakable. Their clothing, hair, shoes and bags are better than everyone’s. The have this confident bubble around them and seem untouchable. They don’t look at or interact with anyone besides staff—and that is only if absolutely necessary. Most truly wealthy people fly private, but sometimes they will fly first class commercial.

A lot of you are confusing class with good taste. OP is asking about economic status.

Probably the best marker is where a person shops.

Wal-Mart/Target/Whole Foods?

Next is family education level.

Some high school drop outs/all high school graduates and some community college/all college graduates/mostly post-graduate degrees

Vacation Travel.

nearby beaches, theme parks/major US destinations/overseas and ski resorts, second homes

Even rich people go to Walmart and Target to stock up on basics.

For all the people claiming that having long legs is not a class indicator, ask yourself this – when was the last time you met a person born into wealth who is under 5’4” and has short, stumpy legs?

Rich people do not go to Wal-Mart.

R89, Stanford takes so many public school kids. Yale here.

Reading comprehension. Higher IQs.

"For all the people claiming that having long legs is not a class indicator, ask yourself this – when was the last time you met a person born into wealth who is under 5’4” and has short, stumpy legs?"

Huh? Short rich people exist. You need to get out more. A large chunk of women are under 5'4", that applies to women of all different classes and backgrounds. You guys must get your idea of what rich people look like from pictures you see in magazines.

Teefs and speech patterns

Well-maintained teeth (if American). Expensive high end brand shoes, not necessarily new. Hbrand European car (probably not new). Expensive non-showy handbags (probably not new), etc. Live in certain zip codes in Connecticut maybe. If parents old money, offspring might be involved in idealistic philanthropy, are not necessarily working for a living, involved with raising or showing dogs, museum-related work, fund-raising for arts organizations, etc.

r99 here: "High end brand European car...."

Were the Vanderbilts upper class before Mrs. Astor left her calling card? They were certainly rich and were in the process of building the most luxurious ostentatious palaces.

The sad truth is that America has a rigid class system but many Americans deny that. Everyone wants to identify as middle class, and have corny ideas about what upper class is.

Also, there is, NOW, less class mobility in the USA than in what one expects to be more class rigid cultures, such as European nations.

It's sad! SAD!

They don't drive. They take Uber and Lyft everywhere. The Gen Z kids at least.

The hardest thing really, to identify, is whether a working stiff will identify a proletariat ("working class") or "middle class". It's very easy to pick out those who are, and those who pretend to be, upper class.

Education, zip code, occupation, parents’ occupations, vacations/travel history, car(s)/primary mode of travel, clothing and accessories, teeth condition, etc.

It’s not hard. If someone wears an expensive watch, has a masters or higher, and travels internationally, clearly they’re well off. If they wear the same clothes all the time, have a bachelors or lower, and never travel anywear more than a talk of gas away, they’re not rich. Son of lawyers? Probably wealthy. Son of a dockworker and a housewife? Probably not.

Remember, class markers attach to every class. Let's here some more markers for "workers" versus "middle class".

Superstore is good series nowadays to think about in terms of class markers.

let's HEAR

Age and sex appropriate comportment. Although that no doubt will be altered as new generations come of age.

People with genuine class have a very silent confidence in the sense that they are not eager to show off through loud and bold clothes or attention seeking behavior. They are well informed, but are not in any way confrontational when someone has a different opinion (though they usually smile and then leave your company with some excuse for the rest of the evening).

Outsiders may see them as snobs for preferring the company of their peers, but classy people are pretty drama free and so called outsiders usually have a lot of baggage in terms of drama classy people have no interest for.

Like - and I know this may sound offensive to some - but rich, classy people don't care for someone whose main topic is how DIFFICULT it is to be poor. Is it supposed to make them feel bad or guilty for being rich? Is it supposed to make the poor guy look better for struggling? Is it supposed to make the classy guys feel better about themselves for being so privileged? It's the same with people who are happy who don't want someone who is chronically depressed to join their circle of friends or a devout Christian to join a circle of Atheists. It's just not a good match and fucks with a group of friends' dynamic.

A certain poise, a certain demeanor, no matter what the situation. The poster above who talked about the woman in the airport gave a good example.

Yes, the hair. You can always tell with the hair.

Many of them have drinking problems, but they're quiet about it.

Gloria Vanderbilt. Spent all her money but still acted and looked classically upper class.

All rich people are classy and poised, just like this guy! He's a classy, stable genius.

No one who frequents DL has class.

Working class and middle class are largely the same if your household income is under $100,000.

“Middle class” is largely a neoliberal myth.

If you use the word “classy,” chances are you’re anything but.

There is a reason for "money can't buy you class".

An effortless condescension to others is a class indicator, Paul Fussell wrote a funny book on the subject but Nancy Mitford published an essay on the subject in the ‘50’s. She thought that overly fussy language was a marker: - they have a lovely home/it’s a nice house - serviette/napkin.

[quote] There is a reason that Ivanka and her ilk are not welcome in the best homes.

If you really think Ivanka is not welcome in the best homes, you're a dreamer.

Dataloungers have insane versions of how class in America works, based mostly on Edith Wharton novels from a hundred years ago.

Ivanka is the epitome of nouveau riche. She might be invited to an old money set party as a curiosity--once. Also she is married to Jared and is a converted Jew. Need I say more? There is Jewish "old money" sort of but she would be even more unwelcome I would guess, because New Yorkers (where most old money Jews live) know a lot about the Trumps and the Kushners and how trashy they are.

[quote]as accurate as you or I discussing the ways of Laplanders.

Oh, dear!

[quote] Their clothing, hair, shoes and bags are better than everyone’s.

I wouldn't count on that.

"Haar-ible": U

"Whore-able": Non-U

Right now, the upper class is obsessed with: plastic surgery and whore-like hair, highlights and trendy fashion that appears cheap. This is why your friend is having a hard time.

YourMillenialFriend is kind of annoying.

Most posters realise that class and being rich are not one and the same thing or even necessarily related. The grandest person I know lives off potato soup and stuffs her modest house with lodgers just to stay afloat. I know lots of upper class people whose family money has been vitiated by generation after generation of inheritance. The only class it’s possible to become is middle. You cannot become upper class or working class, though plenty of people pose as one or the other (think of the very middle-middle class Guy Ritchie, one moment doing his bogus diamond geezer accent, the next wanting to pose as a country squire).

R122 That's not the upper-class. Those are tacky people who happened to be extremely rich, but they usually come from trash. It's like saying Elvis Presley's family are upper-class. They never will be. Class, wealth and celebrity are not the same thing.

The thread, as all threads on class, gets derailed because there are three widely-understood meanings of "class". One is specifically tied to income and lifestyle. When we use the terms lower class, middle class, and upper class, we are referencing that meaning.

Then there is "class" referring to social rank. This is more defined in European countries, which retain vestiges of the feudal system even now, but of course Americans have adopted some features of it. We have never had a "noble" class conferred by birth as they have in Europe, but many wealthy families in the US tried to emulate the noble classes of England, especially in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Their progeny were raised to believe that they were special by reason of having been born into a particular family, even though we fought a revolution specifically to get away from that type of thinking. As our country lurches ever more steadily towards a plutocracy or oligarchy, this feudal thinking gets reinforced.

The final meaning of "class" is "high quality, possessing elegance". This final meaning is the only one that matters to me. Money can help, in that a good education, including deep exposure to the arts and literature, can help people acquire elegance. But to a certain extent, people either have it or they don't. Having an example of a family member, a friend or mentor with this kind of "class" can help, because people of that natural bent will automatically emulate others with it.

The mixup in this thread happens when people confuse the second meaning above with the third meaning. People born into certain families are raised to believe they have "class" be reason of their birth, and the family will devote resources to try to confer "class", meaning "elegance, high quality" on their children by sending them to "good schools", getting them tutors, exposing them to travel and art. However, in the end, only certain members of those families will end up having "class". Others from the same families will be narrow and limited in their thinking, will be held back by lack of native intelligence and/or character from ever achieving class.

by reason of their birth^^

It depends if you are WASPy bohemian or WASPy conventional. The Northeast and mid Atlantic have a lot of the bohemian types that attend fancy liberal arts schools and then become things like museum curators or independent film makers. They wear flowing pseudo hippie garments and locally crafted jewelry. DL tends to focus on the conventional, “preppy handbook” type, which is really becoming obsolete. Rich, old monied types nowadays shop at thrift stores as well as boutiques and don’t care about trends. They can do whatever they want. They are usually thin and natural looking with tasteful plastic surgery. The white women have gold/grey hair, pointed chins, and look pretty much interchangeable. They all are beautifully mannered, but a tad imperious. These are the people that have been wealthy and educated for many generations.

Usually class is associated with social standing or wealth. And the word also comes with many stereotypes.

R28, what do you mean?

I lived in one the wealthiest sections of Connecticut. Later, I lived in another section of the USA known for wealth. I can assure you, wealthy people shop at Walmart, they shop at places like Goodwill when they want and are not afraid to curb crawl if they want to do so. The thing they do not HAVE to do so. They are unafraid to do those things if it means saving money.They do not boast about curb crawling that desk or buying party supplies at a thrift shop, however.

The ONLY thing I judge a person on is their zip code. I have known multi-millionaires who wear Walmart shoes, but if you find out where a person resides, that is the absolute best way to judge them. If they are not in what I deem to be an acceptable zip code, I drop them like a used condom.

@R31

[quote] The obsession with "class" here reeks of age and is hilarious.

No, I think it's just that DL is swarming with Brits and they are obsessed with 'class'

r129, I bet we can get into a long and fascinating discussion about this! Things like bright and boisterous/ethnic prints look fine on these women. And they can wear short skirts and not look slutty.

And the frosted or bright pink lipstick on women of a certain age. My late MIL wore the most gaudy pink lipstick. My own mother would call that color “gaudy” and I won’t say what else. But it was perfectly acceptable with her seersucker skirt and white shirt and blonde bob and summer tan. On another woman it might be tacky, but on her it wasn’t.

R34 U?? U what?!

The upper class often do not shop. They have things ordered, examine them, and either keep the things or have them sent back. They don't deal with the ordering or shipping.

Except for the children. They like going out

Eating Italian food that's white and beige: U.

Eating Italian food that's red: Non-U.

[R135] Yes, that’s why Lily Pulitzer prints have been a preppy staple forever. Only rich people can carry off wearing sacks with turquoise hippos on them!

Social concern. Charity work. Volunteering.

Like Sybil from Downton Abbey.

Exceptional table manners. Exceptionally well tailored suit and shoes for the men and usually knee length skirts for the women. Confident body language without the need to sell something. Always appropriately dressed for the occasion. Well groomed and well behaved. Distinguished on the verge of stuffy or snobby. Polite gentlemen or ladies.

R133: NOCD. Not our condom, dear.

NY Social Diary is my kind of Reality TV giving me a peek at the different levels of class in the US.

I wish DL would do more NYy Social Diary threads trashing the broads with their melting faces and gaudy make up and gowns and their obviously gay arm candy companions.

R143, envy makes you ugly and it's so lower class

[R133] How does as slum-lord come across, say like a Jared Kushner?

Like this one

[quote] Gala co-chairs Monique Coleman and Annie Baker.

They look like desperate Anna Wintour wannabes.

Well, the gentry class on the colonial East Coast, included landed gentry and even some titles. Sometimes the first sons in European aristocracy inherited the most prestigious titles and the lands, but the 2nd and 3rd sons inherited land grants in colonies. There was once and aristocracy in on American soil. This holds true from Canada to Argentina.

There was once AN aristocracy ON American soil.

There are still descendants of Virginia aristocracy today.

People are conflating economic class and social class, the latter of which is quite irrelevant and archaic in most people's everyday lives in 2019. Economic class is everything, and has an enormous impact on one's life. Someone clinging to vestiges of an aristocracy that died out a century ago, while taking in boarders and subsisting on potato soup, is not a member of "the upper class," the same way Ivanka Trump is not remotely "lower class."

I agree with that R149. I was merely pointing out the falsities about American History and aristocracy.

[R147] See the “inconsequential cities: Richmond” thread. Eastern Virginia, from Richmond through the Northern Neck, was settled by aristocrats from England, including Lighthorse Henry Lee, the Carters, the Byrds etc. That is one reason Virginia has such an insular society. Eastern Virginia, that is. Western Virginia is a whole other culture, consisting of descendants of pioneers.

The Hudson Valley and eventually all the way to Montreal were vast land grants, as well

Bravo OP!

This is some God level trolling.

You can practically feel the churning emotions of certain posters.

There was even a modest but genuine aristocratic palace. The current building is of course, a reconstruction.

Only the lower classes swallow.

I was waiting for some one to say that class and wealth are two different things.

So if they are different, what is the benefit of being "upper class?"

They aren't on Instagram. Truly.

R148 you mean the slave traders? In what way is keeping slaves upper class?

r147, r151,r152, and r154, I'm not denying that there are people in the US who BELIEVE that they are aristocrats, whether because their ancestors who migrated from England were, or because they have had money so long that that in itself gives them aristocracy. The essence of aristocracy goes back to the feudal system and the concept of the divine right of kings. People believed for a millenium that God CHOSE certain people to be born into certain families in order to rule, and that he had invested such families with certain abilities and graces to enable to do so wisely and well. The foundational documents of our nation expressly REJECT this belief system. Our country is supposed to be a meritocracy, where people succeed on their merits, not on their birthright. That has never been completely true, as, from the beginning, the wealthy have tried to game the system to protect their own wealth and the status of their families - but nonetheless, the documents don't lie.

R47 is a NO.

[quote] Only the lower classes swallow.

That makes no sense. The upper class doesn't care for cum stains on their designer clothing, bed sheets, or fancy make-up either. You think they want their maids to talk behind their backs talking about all the cum they have to wash out of their employer's fabrics?

It's worse if the gossip is that they don 't find any, R161.

I’m a poor with very long, tawny limbs.

I've been told I'm quite slim with long, tawny limbs.

Wasn't "Tawny" Barbie's BFF?

It takes me four minutes or less to figure out someone’s class. Sometimes less.

People who think grooming has anything to do with class are generally newer money (nothing wrong with that). It has been my experience that the super wealthy don’t give a shit what people think of them and are generally quite ugly, nasty and grubby. Lots of mental problems too.

As an upper middle class educated gay white male, I look down on 99.9% of the people I interact with on a daily basis. I loathe their commonality and banality. Basically put, most people are messy, unsanitary, frumpy, idiotic slabs of meat. I’m quite certain I’m better than everyone I meet. I thank the Gay God everyday I was a born a gay white male.

r166 Howard Hughes comes to mind ...

Insecure people get off playing petty mind games with others and establishing their superiority over others. They get off getting away with all kinds of stupid shit, because they are rich and powerful. People with real class don't play these kind of games. They may stick to old fashioned social protocols and etiquette though.

I received all my guidance regarding class markers by watching Gossip Girl. Was that so wrong?

The US is different to where I grew up. In the US, class is mostly defined by money but in other parts of the world it’s less obvious. To me, class is being able to relate to anyone, no matter their station in life - Noblesse oblige. Diana, Princess of Wales, had that in spades.

[quote] I received all my guidance regarding class markers by watching Gossip Girl. Was that so wrong?

Of course not!

Horse Feathers, R94. At the time the Filth in the White House was splitting with his first wife, there was a picture in one of the New York tabloids showing them outside a Kay Mart somewhere in Pennsylvania, where they had jus bought dorm and school supplies for Junior Filth. They had dropped him off at prep school.

Underneath the veneer of America's upper classes is also snobbery and bigotry.

Speaking of the Filth in the White House, markers of social class or status are evident where they winter, i. e. Palm Beach. He purchased Mar-a-Lago from the heirs of Marjorie Merriweather Post, the very epitome of Old Money. Old Money wintered in Palm Beach, where they socialized at the Everglades Club and the Bath & Tennis Club. These clubs are very restricted still (although Rush Limbaugh is a member of the former). If you meet someone at one of those clubs and he tells you that he is a "sportsman," you know that he is living off his family's money. Trump was not accepted by the Old Money crowd. He was considered crass and vulgar. Hence, when he turned Mar-a-Lago into a club, he said that the place would not be restricted. He was thumbing his nose at the Old Money crowd.

The northern part of Palm Beach is where those who were not accepted went. The Kennedys had their home on this part of the island. Don't forget Irish Catholics in the first part of the twentieth century were not considered "our kind, dear." Nor were Jews. Hence you have the Jewish club in Palm Beach...the Palm Beach Country Club. The Madoffs were part of this crowd.

When you have guests at the Everglades or PB Bath & Tennis, you must give their names. One time a friend when he was younger was with a party of guests of a son of a member. Among the party was a young girl, whose family was very wealthy and well-known name. They would not admit the young girl to the Bath & Tennis Club. Her family is Jewish.

Such acceptance amongst the upper crust!!

Another example of the hypocrisy underneath America's upper crust is Barbara Bush. Yes, there's the tasteful, inexpensive strand of pearls, the hairstyle that never changed, and classic wardrobe for an evening out or in the garden. I can remember her talking ever so slightly derisively of the "little brown ones, " who were her grandchildren...the progeny of her son's marriage to a non-WASP.

R163 If you’re single and/or still in school, you have the chance to move up! Natural elegance is a trait favored by the wealthy when deciding on scholarships and marriages because they so often lack it themselves.

Only the best people post on Datalounge.

R173 knows whereof he speaks. Staggering amounts of racism among the super wealthy.

Gossip Girl should not be your indicator for old money. Old money people don’t allow their names to go public unless it’s on a discreet bronze plaque on the side of a building. They’re also not that good looking.

It used to be things like manual windows on your old but expensive car, prep school, shopping at Brooks, never discussing money, impeccable manners, travel, old nice things, old nice houses. Education, sailing, squash, clubs, books. It's harder to spot now. The lower classes and new money have aped the things they can. (Surnames for first names.) But sometimes I spot a beautiful woman with natural hair, little makeup, in simple good clothes that are brand-less and miss the old days. Class was never about showing off. It was about confidence in your place and a sense of responsibility about your good fortune. Never an attempt at flair or looking younger-- except in the eccentrics or old men who went off the rails.

Impulse control. I was raised that it was tacky to yell and scream or make scenes in public and I was raised middle class. Nothing to do with money. Discussing money was also a no no.

Wealth has nothing to do with class or the upper class. Position always beats money. Even now.

In DC it's:

Episcopalian

Noblesse oblige

St. Johns

Those boys'schools in DC

Certain fraternities and sororities at schools with big Greek systems:

Texas: Fiji, SAE, Sig Ep; Pi Phi, Kappa, Theta

UVA: Deke, Delta Phi/St. Elmo Hall, Zeta Psi; Theta, Kappa, Tri-Delt

USC: Sigma Chi, Lambda Chi, Teke; Kappa, DG, Theta

Teeth / dental care. Agree that if someone has lots of repairs (fillings, caps, etc.) on their teeth, it's a marker that they grew up poor (lower economic class).

People's undergraduate degrees say something about their economic class. If you have a degree in something like art history or literature, I would guess you came from a higher economic class. If you have a degree in something super-useful, like occupational therapy, I would guess middle- or lower-economic class. This might be an outdated way of thinking on my part.

[quote] There was once AN aristocracy ON American soil. There are still descendants of Virginia aristocracy today.

I can't help but think that the English thought that people (English) who migrated to the U.S. were going to an outpost to reinvent themselves as "aristocracy." Just my opinion.

[quote]Teeth / dental care. Agree that if someone has lots of repairs (fillings, caps, etc.) on their teeth, it's a marker that they grew up poor (lower economic class).

That's pretty standard for all classes now.

R182 no dear they were their own family - going to land grants from the King. They were aristocrats. There were not many, mind you.

The south has some special quirks in this area. Especially white southern families. If someone comes from a "good family", it may not matter if they have lost their family wealth or behaved badly. There are some strange things that certain families get away with. Your family might be living in a house in poor condition, might be out of work, but keep the family silver and china that your five times great grandma buried to save it from the yankees.

Also, there were merchants who rose to titles in the Americas. The Dutchman Frederick Philipse for example. He sort of fits your concept of a new "aristocracy". Nevertheless, it was a REAL title granted by the King of England.

Draining pasta.

R12 Close friend worked at La Palestra for years - JFK, JR worked out there on the reg - several times per week at minimum.

I highly recommend A Southern Belle Primer by Marilyn Schwartz

Solid-gold EVERYTHING

Marble this and crystal that

Crushed velour curtains

Putting your name on stuff

Ladies with big titties spilling out of tight fancy clothes

Cadillacs with Rolls-Royce grilles

The finest cuts of beef cooked to nuggets of crusty charcoal-like perfection

The Florida Versailles—so much bigger and classier than the old one

R190 you are naive if you believe anything Trump owns is "solid gold". And all the marble is a thin tiles. He did buy a couple nice estates, I will give him that.

Palm Beach is exactly as you say it is, Bonnie Prince Charlie @ R173 but it's also an anomaly, a throwback to a white midcentury America that mostly attracts people over 70.

The antisemitism/anti-Catholicism and all that has hung on because Palm Beach is sort of the last gasp of the midwestern manufacturing fortunes, people whose grandparents made their money in electrical wire casing in the 1890s. And to your point, those people are mostly undereducated, provincial WASPs who live off a rapidly shrinking trust fund.

The wealthy Jewish families are sort of a mirror of that, from an era where everything was restricted and so there was a need for a "Jewish" club.

Neither sort of self-segregation is happening with anyone under 50.

Once those seniors die out, the clubs will die out with them. Then Palm Beach will either be colonized by wealthy South Americans who are tired of Miami, get rediscovered by retiring tech billionaires, or a little of both.

R173, Many Jews and Irish Catholics have changed their names through marriage or for business reasons. Would they then be admitted to these elite clubs IF they had perfect manners? Don't forget children of intermarriage often convert as well.

Jonathan Club in Santa Monica and Downtown Los Angeles had a very restrictive policy for years.

Upper class usually have their family history recorded in their inherited Bible. There's the strong belief that you should only be in the newspaper on your birth, marriage, and death. Those that participate in charity events to get their pictures in the media are NOKD.

People who bleach their teeth white are trying to catch money (Zooming gold digging whores). Rich people consider themselves outside the attraction scale. For example, Bill Gates and Jeff Besos are both FUGLY. Normal people consider dental care as health care.

..endlessly ranting about impeaching Trump. Its low class even if the action is necessary.

R181, Certain sororities that you listed have it written in their charters that "no Black girl can be admitted." Wonder if that's changed? Would the Greek system still be prominent at USC (and at UCLA?) Recall USC was located in one of the most gang-infested sections of Los Angeles.

UCLA is mostly Asians now.

R181 it's actually written in the charter?? I thought these things were done in secrecy and stealth!

I went to University in Texas in the early 90s and no blacks were admitted to our fraternities with the exception of a couple of well-liked ones from the football team as tokens. They never really participated but that’s how we got around the “race” thing.

Remember how I said we now included Stanford in the "HYP" thing and the gap between HYPS and other Ivies and schools like Duke was not as great as it once was.

That statement did not include the University of Texas

[quote](although Rush Limbaugh is a member of the former).

Rush is the black sheep of a well-respected family. He's an interesting example of the distinctions many are discussing here. It doesn't matter how much money he makes, or how popular he is, he'll always be a loser in a family where having a federal courthouse named after you is the sort of thing considered a marker of success. Rush was the chump they sent to intern with the KC Royals.

The teeth thing is not really a marker.I know someone whose family members are media figures, government officials, and persons one learns about in American History class, has the most jacked up teeth you ever saw.

Someone explained to me that at that level of privilege, neglect of one's children is a sign of entitlement.

Stanford is so different from HYP. Probably better, and I'm from Yale.

R198, Went to grad school at USC in the early 80's. Was told that an acquaintance's sorority was established in the South way back when. Officially no Black woman could join no matter how attractive or accomplished.

In a vain attempt at defense of her racist sorority she did say that they had 1 Asian and 1 South American. The former's father was a fab rich businessman while the latter's father was a high ranking diplomat. Both young women I was told were beautiful, kind, accomplished.

In the late 70's Kappa Kappa Gamma at UCLA did not want Jews in their sorority. A Jewish co-ed was told by her friend to hide her Star of David necklace before entering the sorority house with the words, "There's no reason for them to hate you just because you're Jewish."

At the same time the "Jewish sorority" was still welcome to do exchanges with most of the fraternities at UCLA I was told on authority, "because all their fathers are rich."

My Porsche and my Tag Hauer.

^^^ a Porsche Boxster (basically a Miata) and a replica Tag does not count as “class.”

Darlene Shiley of PBS is a cow. She was an assistant in a much older Doctor's office. He invented the heart valve and made a fortune. She married him then he died. Part of the deal she made with PBS is that in return for donations she gets air time. Should be obvious, nobody with any class is named Darleen or anything that ends with "leen".

I know it when I see it.

Had no idea that Rush was a dyed in the world old money fascist. I really did believe he was Johnny Lunchpail.

Wow. He’s like a carnival huckster. I really believe he, Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes are pure evil. Note: this is also generally a class marker. Sociopathic levels of racism and keep the plebs away from us.

I know one person who is UC. She is one of the kindest people I have met. She is in her 70s. These kinds of threads are always a guilty pleasure for me because is interesting to hear real viewpoints from all kinds of people. The UC person I know is actually like all the comments above. Sometimes I try to copy her for fun or tease her by chewing gum in a crazy way. She hates that. I'm glad to know her though.

Serving kiwifruit at a candlelight supper is SO lower middle class.

The love of a garden is indicative of ones social class.

R137, you are joking, aren't you?

If people are going out of their way to be nice to you, they perceive you as upper class, but when you're dead you're dead.

If people are mean to you while you are alive, but praise you to the skies after you're dead, you're middle class.

[quote]Naturally athletic? What does that mean? And there is no correlation between WASP ancestry and long legs. Where do people get this shit?

Books and movies, mostly.

There are plenty of short people in the NYSD threads, often men, and there are plenty of large (Ina Garten-esque) members of the upper class.

Queen Elizabeth is 5'4".

So there goes that theory.

R93 meet the current queen of England.

I would hazard being able to speak French, conversant on arts, literature and politics. Never mentioning bills or money at all. Very well made, simply designed clothing, with expensive fabrics. Simple jewelry. Speaks quietly and never brays or chortle in laughter.

My half sister, married well into an old money British family. It is interesting to see what their life is like- they're constantly travelling the world for friend's weddings- Italy, India, Abu Dhabi- (they're in their early 30's), will travel business or first class and will stay in small, boutique hotels. He's a doctor specializing in genetic research- told me that up until recently (before the privatization of healthcare), people became doctors in Britain to genuinely help people, and not to make money.

You couldn't make money as a doctor in the UK because of public healthcare, salaries were limited. Now that the UK is trying to take the same amount of taxes as before but providing fewer and fewer services, people are forced to go to private healthcare practitioners, and they're raking it in just like US specialists.

Just typical that someone who is already old money would go into healthcare only AFTER it became a for-profit hellscape, because when it was just about helping people, Mr Old Money didn't have time for it. But getting to add bags of money to his Big Bags O' Money Room, THAT he's got time for.

When I was younger, it seemed that French was the preferred language to learn. I attended a private high school. The children of the wealthy all enrolled in French. I remember it well. Spanish was looked down upon. This is long before the influx of Central and South Americans into that part of the USA.

In fact, anything we here on DL call white adjacent or ethnic white such as Greek or Italian or Portuguese was looked down upon, seen as ethnic and excluded, no matter how accomplished or wealthy the person.

Or "acquired" french in one's Swiss boarding school.

[quote]was a dyed in the world

Oh, dear!

OP = Boris doing social research

It’s low class for middle aged or older women to have short overly layered and died hair, such as the classic “May I Speak to a Manager” haircut previously worn by Kate Goeslin.

Upper class women’s hair is usually straight, not fussy. Can be worn up if needed, with assistance from hairdresser. But mostly it’s a comfortable bob.

I’m going to say conspicuous amounts of low karat gold (14 karat or lower), particularly Catholic religious charms, strike as low class. Bracelets aren’t ‘nice’ (especially several gold ones on the arm) and neither are dangling earrings unless they are worn at a formal event.

Plenty of colonial land grants from England were given out in the south to people who were not wealthy. They were even given to indentured servants after their contracts were over.

Your family receiving one does not mean you are American aristocracy.

R207, I always wondered about that!

The Widow Anna Nicole Smith has changed her name from “Vickie Lynn” to “Anna Nicole”. I don’t know what difference it was supposed to make.

R167 U don't sound upper-class at all. You sound like what you say you are, which is upper-middle-class. It's still middle class, without the realism - and boring.

R222 I know, I know. My phone is garbage and randomly changes words out of context (just now it changed words to worlds). I posted a big thing and it ate it. I have given up trying to edit as I go.

I accept that I will receive a handful of “oh dears” now and again. - r209

Idealizing the "upper class" as well-educated, physically attractive and fabulously tasteful is proof that you are middle class.

R227 you can't tell it's a flyover frau troll making fun of her stereotype of a gay man?

All in fun, r228, at least as far as I’m concerned.

Always using a straw (take that as you will, depending on class).

Not talking about class = Class

Here's one (not sure if it's true). Always eats pizza with knife and fork, never with hands. (Or never eats pizza at all maybe?)

I thought this was about class distinctions meaning socio-economic class, not manners. Not that manners are unimportant. How pizza is eaten would not be so important. Rich folks eat pizza, too, and I have seen them use their hands. I did!!

Sheridan would be appalled.

Male american blue-bloods are tallish and have big cocks. Such as the Biddles, Byrds, Auchinclosses. Randolfs, Cabots, and Du Ponts.

As someone in the interior design field in Los Angeles, here's my take... 90% of my clients are in Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Brentwood and Santa Monica. For me, the classiest clients are then ones that donate/or have their art on loan to museums. Hands down. That is class - they buy artwork worth $$$$$ which have of some historical significance and they share it to the public at large. And for the most part not getting anything in return other than a little tag mark on the artwork saying it was donated by "XYZ".

On the other hand, I recently worked with a very famous art collector of feminist art. 99% of It was all housed in her 30,000 sq foot home, rich but not classy. Talk about the vagina, it was everywhere and she is a straight woman! No class and but she knew that she was a major player in this niche art section, so she was a bully and awful to the female artist that she patronaged. Mega rich, no class.

BTW, long legs indicator of a class marker???? Watch any fucking fashion show and you will see all dirt poor girls from Eastern Europe, Asia or Brazil have gorgeous long leg and they barely support themselves modeling. What an idiotic idea. Shame on you for your racist knowledge.

So my opinion is to iron your caftan and make sure your earrings are perfectly matched! And stop talking about class. I think that DL is one of the last places on the internet that these discussions of class or no class are still a viable thread. I would love to see this type of threads shut down.

So Gramps heat your TV dinner and go to bed. You have no idea what the world is today

America doesn’t have blue bloods. We have new money who think they deserve to treated like royalty. No you’re not royalty and you never will be.

Class = tattoo free, no cigarettes or obesity.

I grew up in the east, in a very wealthy place in New Jersey. The class markers there are very different from where I now in California. What clues you into what class you are in California would be considered vulgar and showy in the east.

Worst of new money are of the Kardashian ilk.

"Nude pumps (flashy shoes are a sure sign of lower class.)"

Did you read this in a book published 36 years ago? Are you the one posting "with authority" on classmarkers based on Fussell's book?

I'm sure it made for fascinating reading, but class markers change after 36 years. Yes, some things remain the same or similar, but something like fashion is in constant flux.

" For me, the classiest clients are then ones that donate/or have their art on loan to museums. Hands down. That is class - they buy artwork worth $$$$$ which have of some historical significance and they share it to the public at large. And for the most part not getting anything in return other than a little tag mark on the artwork saying it was donated by "XYZ".

Well, for one thing, the museum picks up the considerable tab on the insurance fees, and for another, it's a hell of a tax write off. Not to mention, those "classy" rich people still own the painting. And if it get's stolen, it's the museum's fault.

I guess having the general public pick up the tab on your obscene wealth is "classy."

[quote]And if it get's stolen,

Oh, dear!

This is such a recurring thread on the Datalounge. Who are these insecure plebs who are so desperate to appear less lower class?

Look, you can't buy it, you can only buy its costumes and stages. If you don't have the right background, the right schools, the right people with whom you grew up, you're not going to be mistaken for the upper classes in America.

The best classes live in a TRUMP building.

The majority of Americans now regard anyone with a reality show as being upper class.

OP here.

For clarification, this really wasn't about "What makes someone upper class?" but rather, "What makes someone ANY class?" and "What things give it away immediately?" I think speech patterns is a good example.

There are many things that we notice about people in our own society that those from the outside -- ie, my friend from China -- don't.

I would be a lot more interested to hear about class markers in today's china. Also, did any "old families" stick it out through the revolution and still survive and even thrive?

Lower class people overcook their spaghetti.

The upper classes prefer their pasta al dente.

From someone with class, commenting on this thread:

I think we can all agree that OPs thread has been an eye opener. Congratulations on 250 posts Op. But also, isn’t this Rorschach test a telling indicator of how little we really understand one another. I for one intend to spend the coming days looking at things with a fresh attitude.

From someone without class, commenting on this thread:

F-U-C-K Y-O-U OP. And fuck R1 through R249. Maybe I have to listen to this shit from my sister in law, but from all of you? People are people. Period. End of story. Jesus Christ, will this navel gazing never fucking end?

A certain confidence tinged with ennui, good manners, an intelligent way of speaking.

R250 - Too wordy, but I see the effect you were going for.

[quote] I grew up in the east, in a very wealthy place in New Jersey. The class markers there are very different from where I now in California. What clues you into what class you are in California would be considered vulgar and showy in the east.

Same here. Some of these queens have NO idea what "old money" is all about. Not. A. Clue. For one thing, it's about being respectful to those who aren't as fortunate.

R252, not very classy. See what I mean?

Lower class people talk WAY too loud using their outdoor voice indoors.

They almost talk about how they "aren't like those rich fancy snobs", even though chances are, they don't know any.

Upper class people are never concerned with how they are viewed by lower classes.

"Upper class people are never concerned with how they are viewed by lower classes."

R248, The grandmother of a friend from China hid out among the rural peasants far from Mao. Money changed hands to make it happen. Her older brother owns an extremely prosperous manufacturing co, has a mistress, represents the elite of modern China. GF taught English in China before marrying an Italian-American and bringing her adult son to the US for college.

[quote]Nonsense, there are plenty of upper class people who've never been near a piano.

R66: is it hard to grasp that just because something is cited as *a* class marker, this does not mean this custom automatically applies to ALL members of that class?

Paul Fussell's 1983 book "Class" is totally outdated now, especially with its reference to the "prestige" of Britain and everything British.

Obese people squeezed into cheap t-shirts and baggy shorts = low class.

I’m proud of my lower middle class ancestry! I’m from Brooklyn, went to state school and now work in retail. And I have mental illness and struggle with grooming.

But I am well read, love art, parties, people and animals. I consider everyone my social equal.

r253, I have never, ever noticed this trait among the wealthy, at least not among the east coast upper class. Not that it doesn't or couldn't exist. r256, the upper class I interacted would not have given a rat's ass what any other class thought of them.

[quote] And there is no correlation between WASP ancestry and long legs.

Some of these distinctions are true, but historical.

From about the industrial revolution to about 100 years ago, it was obvious, verifiable fact that wealthy people were taller as adults because they didn't have the malnutrition problems of poorer people. Bernard Shaw in one of his essays--among one of many socialists to write about this--wrote that if we forcibly fed poor children instead of letting the rich waste money, they would be pounds heavier and inches taller.

It was true at one point, though perhaps not today.

Playing polo matches.

A Lacrosse playing child and a NPR tote bag?

R260 - “But I am well read.”

The complete Dr. Seuss collection does not count as “well read.”

In Europe one looks at superyacht design and itineraries

Eating an exclusive European high fiber breakfast cereal, with the Royal Dutch Family crest on it, is a sure sign of class

[quote] iron your caftan

Heat can't get anywhere NEAR our caftans. They would melt!

Lower classes takes meds.

Upper classes buck up.

People who speak in correct english, without slang tend to be of higher class

Those who frequent the arts— theater, opera, dance, etc tend to be from the upper classes

Those who frequent the arts— theater, opera, dance, etc tend to be from the upper classes

Those who frequent the arts— theater, opera, dance, etc tend to be from the upper classes

The upper classes don't feel a need to win every argument. (They've already won at life.)

The upper classes have a lot of money

Lots of vacations for summer, spring break, etc are a mark of the rich

Lots of vacations for summer, spring break, etc are a mark of the rich

Upper classes can ski

The upper classes detest clutter.

Upper class people don't flaunt their wealth with loud blinged out diamond watches, necklaces and bracelets.

However, upper class people in the UK still have terrible teeth, just look at the royal family.

The upper classes don't dye their hair pink or neon green.

[quote]People who speak in correct english, without slang tend to be of higher class

So I guess we now know where you fit in.

It's very easy to determine an individual's social class, OP.

You simply have to ask them to cook you pasta, and then watch to see if they drain it. Voilà -- certainty!

The upper class shops at Target and never Walmart. I feel extremely special when I enter the hallowed glass doors of my “tarjay” and saunter around with my icee.

[quote]I feel extremely special when I enter the hallowed glass doors of my “tarjay” and saunter around with my icee.

An icee? How low-class. Everyone knows the upper echelon only drink slurpees.

Upper Class : Your family didn't come over on the Mayflower.

Etc.

Your shit doesn’t stink

Money can't buy you class!

Money can't buy you taste either!

Back to Paul Fussell, his scoring system for a living room, while dated in a few places, is still a pretty good marker of class.

Knowledge of "useless" but traditionally/academically important foreign languages. It's the upper/upper-middle class who learn Greek and Latin. French and German too, but to a lesser extent.

College. Seems to generally be the lower class who do majors like criminal justice and get their first degrees from a community college or online program.

Pet foods. Whether their cats are fed Meow Mix or Science Diet.

R291 - Intriguing article.

R253 Yes ‘dance school’ is alive and well. My stepdaughter attends a $40,000 a year private school that is known as the ‘old money’ school in my big city and about 1/3 of the students there went to Ms. White’s dance classes.

It’s basically etiquette classes and I sincerely wish that my stepdaughter had attended. Good life skills in the long term and it would’ve helped her socially in the short term. There’s a big difference between knowing the niceties of etiquette and not observing them and being clueless about manners and not having any idea that you’re not being polite.

Unfortunately I am not her parent so I couldn’t force the issue.

Etiquette classes for both girls and boys should be taught in every school. A shame that doesn't happen.

R295 - But that would get in the way of 2nd Grade Gender Studies.

It's hard to marry someone outside of your class.

R297 no it’s not. I married “down” and I regret it.

I married up and it has opened many doors for me. I was above average looking at 28 when I met my now husband. Through his money and connections I was able to finish my degree and obtain a 6-figure marketing job with his friend’s company. I never considered myself a “gold-digger” but now I realize without my looks I wouldn’t have been able to accomplish what I have and would probably be working a low-wage retail job.

I married up and it has opened many doors for me. I was above average looking at 28 when I met my now husband. Through his money and connections I was able to finish my degree and obtain a 6-figure marketing job with his friend’s company. I never considered myself a “gold-digger” but now I realize without my looks I wouldn’t have been able to accomplish what I have and would probably be working a low-wage retail job.

So instead of a shop bottom, you’re a marketing bottom?

The Upper Classes don't waste time watching massive amounts of television.

R300 well SMELL YOU

R303 - LOL. I may not have married for love but I knew I could not be poor. I saw my opportunity and took it! My husband and I have a cordial enough relationship but often travel separately. I still wouldn’t change a thing seeing the way most of my friends live from paycheck to paycheck.

R270, rather upper class people get to choose what will go into the dictionary as a new coinage and what will be considered to be slang.

R304 is the reason the upper classes are afraid of marrying down.

I married down and get annoyed by the way my husband holds his fork.

R292, the classical languages, i.e. Greek and Latin, were the backbone of a classic liberal arts education. They were traditionally taught in all private schools and the best public schools. as for the modern languages, French was always the preferred second language, because it was the language of diplomacy, before English supplanted it. Knowledge of French was de rigueur for an educated Briton, hence followed by the educated American upper and middle classes. German was the lingua franca of science before the War.

Spanish was considered the language to take for dummies. The vast majority of American high school students (the Great Unwashed, if you will) take Spanish for a language requirement. Purely anecdotal, but if a student today takes French, German, Chinese, Arabic, or any language other than Spanish, chances are that student is driven to succeed.

Low class marker: obsession with a sports team.

Spanish has a very low-class reputation in the US. French is an upper-class language.

I’m high class and I only use brand name douches to clean out my poop particles.

As in Britain, people in the US at the highest levels of entitlement and multigenerational "class" make a virtue of simplicity.

Few euphemisms, plain speaking, eye contact, but good diction and speech in complete paragraphs

Pride in getting dirty - even women with gardeners will insist on working a little outside

At least one vehicle that is older and looks a bit rundown - one mature woman in her 70s I know who is from an internationally respected family insists on driving her old red pickup during the day

No wedding rings on the men

Volunteering and philanthropic gifts, sometimes even anonymous (although when they're at the events and you don't see their names in the donor lists you know who "Anonymous" is at the top of the charts)

Men who carefully avoid any talk of property, belongings, new purchases, or money

Consistency in appearance, manner and energy - class means being the same and not letting anyone see you seem not at your best

"Better" people talk about issues, not about other people

R300 inadvertently demonstrates a level of crassness, poor English communication skills (two errors, at least three clumsy phrases and three cringeworthy details) and misunderstanding what we're talking about here to prove some of the points made. No class, in other words.

And from her values we have no indication that the "now husband" (sic) embodies anything of "class," nor that she would recognize it if he did.

The "now husband" probably is richer, that's it. I think we've established many times over that has nothing to do with class, although sometimes class and wealth overlap.

R312: there's really no need to advertise your over-the-top queeniness quite so blatantly.

R291, Surprised that the following are dissed: National Geographic, subtract 2; Smithsonian, subtract 1; Scientific American, subtract 1

Would anyone know the reasoning behind it?

R308, The vast majority of high school students in the US do not learn a 2nd language unless it's already spoken by their relatives. Strangers falsely assume that I'm South American as I know some Spanish, as well as a little French.

I speak 3 languages. I would wager to say 99% of you peasants barely have a proper understanding of a single language.

I took Spanish in HS not because I was lazy, but because I was obsessed with “West Side Story.”

[quote]"Upper class people are never concerned with how they are viewed by lower classes."

Well almost never.

You may be right, r308, but "driven to succeed" seems the essence of tiresome striving middle classness

[quote] Upper class people don't flaunt their wealth with loud blinged out diamond watches

True. My grandmother once told me that diamond watches were the most useless piece of jewelry ever invented. One can't wear diamonds before five (other than one's wedding set) and one doesn't wear a watch with evening dress. She had three of them, given as gifts, received with derision.

i've never had the slightest idea why anyone wants a rolex. Thought it was just me, but maybe not.

Regionally, from about 15-20 years ago: Jansport backpacks. The kids who didn't have them -- and had the cheaper brand -- were often the poorer kids.

I bought my Rolex at 50. I think it was mainly to reward myself for success. But I must admit to you whores, my second family, that it was also purchased to rub my wealth into lesser people’s faces.

I congratulate you on your wealth and condole you on your purchase.

r323, what region would that be?

R326, the Valley in LA, 90s through early 00s. LA Unified SD, lol.

Had some guy tell me about his Rolex collecting (he has 5)- it was more about how certain pieces never depreciate in value, and therefore an investment of sorts.

[quote] This is such a recurring thread on the Datalounge. Who are these insecure plebs who are so desperate to appear less lower class?

DLCAS (Datalounge Class Anxiety Syndrome) is a recurring theme on here and with many gay men in general. There's an obsession with status as if somehow pretending to come from a much wealthier/more socially prominent family will make people like them better. (News Flash: it does not. I am far more impressed with someone who grew up poor and is now a teacher or doctor or owns their own business than I am with someone who has had everything handed to them. But mostly that's not how I, or 90% of other humans judge anyone. And why would anyone care about the opinion of people who do?)

DLers are particularly clueless about this as they base their impressions on the social norms of midcentury Flyoverstan or on the habits of fellow septuagenarians.

Their impressions of what constitutes "upper class" are decades out of date.

Yes R330, that is what I meant by "the social norms of midcentury Flyoverstan" e.g., what passed for upper class in Akron, Ohio or Norman, Oklahoma in 1963

R323 , I have never heard about JanSport backpacks being a class marker. What did the non-poor kids use? Truly curious.

Again R332, in that poster's tiny corner of Flyoverstan, circa 1984, the kids whose fathers worked double shifts at the factory had the $40 backpacks and the kids whose fathers had been laid off had the knock-offs from Kmart.

Pinky rings on men are considered upper class in Britain. In the United States, definitely not!

You gotta problem wit dat R334?

R333, excuse you. I was all of 1-years-old in 1984 and I didn't know LA is Flyoverstan. And I didn't pick on the kids who had them -- hell, I think I had one of the cheaper backpacks for a year or two.

R332, to answer: I don't remember the brand. It was Mountain something, I think.

What hub of culture are you from, MF? Is Flyoverstan anyplace that’s not Manhattan?

Wearing clothing made from natural fibers, especially casual wool clothing from established labels or newer brands like Icebreaker for both men and women. This only applies to old money upper-class/ upper-middle class not newly rich trash.

Where you vacation, length of stay, and where you stay, if staying at hotels if you're upper-middle/ upper class you'll likely aim for the cheapest room at the best hotels instead of the most expensive rooms at mid-level hotels. Also vacationing for longer than 3 weeks often up to 2 months is usually a sign that you're up there in status. Vacationing in cities that are not Paris, London, Tokyo, or other obvious cities thought of as glamorous by newbie middle-class or lower-class travelers who'll splash out money to go to those places. Instead, upper class folks will seek out places like Vienna, Prague, Lisbon, Kyoto, etc...because they've already been to Paris, London, and similar places years ago and multiple times.

For women, loud colored clothing and nails are dead giveaways to low-class or nouveau-riche trash. Bright clothing is fine as long as it's limited to right circumstance and one item at a time e.g. not head to toe tacky, unless you work in the creative fields which then allow you more leeway in this regard. Makeup is the same, either emphasize lips or eyes never both.

For men, well-made Oxford shirts are absolute musts because they can be dressed up or down; wear them while doing garden work or going for lunch at nice spot with friends. Pastels over grays, beiges, and blues. Same rules for nice pairs of chino pants, never go out wearing sweatpants. Clothing always in classic styles never trendy so no slim cuts or baggy or odd details that scream trendy.

R316, Ah! Yes! The value of mediocrity!

Rolex is an investment piece, it lasts forever...worth the money.

"1-years-old"

Stop embarrassing yourself please.

Thank god yourmillenialflake is here to inform all of us unfortunate slobs of the ways of the world.

We’d be so lost without these wise words.

*mimics vomiting*

This troll is neither friendly nor a millennial.

In my experience, uppercrust people (many of whom come from old money) tend to drive old, well-maintained European cars—a LOT of Volvos. The flashier nouveau riche opt for brand new BMWs and are very tacky about letting people know they have them.

Since when do millennials know the ins and outs of the 1960s?

Upper class people have perfectly formed bms

R317 I speak 6 and think you are an idiot.

In Africa there are people who also speak 5, 6 languages in addition to French and English as a matter of course.

Low class: writing about your 3-way with Suzanne Somers. Having a 3-way with Suzanne Somers.

“The first time I saw a fingerbowl was at the home of my benefactress. [...]

The water had a few cherry blossoms in it, and I thought it must be some clear sort of Japanese after-dinner soup and ate every bit of it, including the crisp little blossoms.”

― Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar

What most replies bypass is that race and ethnicity are still class markers here.

Poverty and race are intertwined. There are certainly rich and middle class people of color, but in the minds of most of the heartland folks, white people are at the top of the chain, and people of color are below them.

The new class is “knowledge-based”. Reading the Economist. Guess I’m in.

Huh. I took Spanish because I thought it would be more practical than French in the US. So far it has been.

I’ve also learned enough French on my own that I can read and hear it with passable comprehension, but can’t string a sentence together. I suppose learning it on your own is plebeian.

The most implausible thing about Our Millennial Friend is that he can be bothered to post here. His circles are so elegant, we're his first opportunity to condescend at length.

Good teeth and clothes are no longer class markers. They can be purchased by the hoi polloi. It’s what you know that matters. What reading material is on your bedside table. As i states above, i found out I am high-class because I read the Economist. Who knew? Suggest you subscribe to the New Yorker and NYRB. If you want to be even more high-class, get the Times Literary Supplement and London Review of Books. Most English stuff will do. :)

I swear my mother subscribes to the London Review of Books just because the covers are consistently pretty.

Les enfants:

R350

R356

Et les sans-dents...

[quote]What reading material is on your bedside table.

A whole bunch of Archie comics. What’s that say about my classy level?

You just know it when you see it.

I’m white and blonde.

R248 I don't think there are as many class markers in China as there are in the US, apart from some knockoff class markers of Western lifestyle, because the post-Mao class society is still very young, the traditions and tastes yet to be made.

Most of the pre-revolutionary "old families" had fled the country before the Communist takeover. The American descendants of those families include I. M. Pei and Steven Chu. Michael Chow, owner of Mr. Chow, is also from a prominent family, though his parents stayed in China and didn't make it through the revolution. There were "Four Big Families" in the Republic of China, the Chiangs, the Soongs, the Kungs, and the Chens; most of their descendants are now in the US.

One of the few old money who didn't flee the country and sticked it out through the revolution was Rong Yiren, who was supposed to be the heir to a business empire. Though most of his siblings left China, he stayed in post-revolutionary Shanghai to run the family businesses until they were confiscated. He survived the Cultural Revolution and finally became the VP of China.

Saying "seen" (lower class) instead of "saw" (upper class).

eg. "I seen the suspect run into the woods." instead of "I saw the suspect run into the woods."

Men wearing flashy gold chains - lower class.

Hopefully, smoking is now considered lower class.

I wonder if saying "supper" instead of "dinner" is lower class, or if it's a regional thing.

I wonder how the snobbery about driving expensive European cars instead of expensive American cars started.

Zsa Zsa Gabor slapping the cop - upper class.

Who cares about Chinese?

R359. That's Andrew Lauren, son of Ralph who made Billions creating a false image of what a garmento thinks Upper Class Wasps are truly like. As Marella Agnelli once said, it takes at least two generations to understand wicker.

Surely there are some short tempered upper class women who have become very angry and made a scene in public.

R366, hysterical about the wicker!

Having useless grown children with drug habits - upper class.

Upper class: "Pass me the butter, please."

Lower class: "Pass me the butter or else I'll punch you in the throat."

You can always tell by the hair.

Lower class- entitled

Upper class- oblivious

Lower class- "Good teeth and clothes are no longer class markers. They can be purchased by the hoi polloi."

Upper class- knows that "the" preceding "hoi polloi" is unnecessary.

Lower class- entitled

Upper class- oblivious

Lower class- "Good teeth and clothes are no longer class markers. They can be purchased by the hoi polloi."

Upper class- knows that "the" preceding "hoi polloi" is unnecessary.

Yes, yes. It was tiresome the first time.

I see YourMillennialFriend has triggered a troll pretty badly, but YMF's description is one of the more accurate ones in this thread.

There's always an association between money and class--not everyone with money has class, but maintaining an upper-class life requires filthy lucre, which is you have a long tradition of marrying for money among the aristocracy.

Anyway, various tells--clothing quality--good material, well-fitted. With the women, well-tended hair, particularly if it's dyed or bleached--care of that kind of hair takes money and time. Generally, not too flashy--flashy attracts attention and, usually, there's no need for that. Those who need to know who you are know.

Certain private schools, colleges, clubs and country clubs. Leisure-time activities are a big tip-off. Someone mentioned skiing--there are ski bums who aren't at all rich, but people who travel multiple times a year to ski resorts tend to have money--big tell is if they have a cabin that's been in the family for years and doesn't look like a small cabin or a condo. In general, ownership of a second home and its location tells you a lot. The schools and clubs are also the way people create networks.

A lot of them aren't intentionally exclusive, by the way, but if you don't have the culture and the money to play (memberships, sizeable donations to the right charities), you're not going to be able to do what they do. Definitely helps if you grew up learning how to play tennis, golf, sail and ride horses.

Re: foreign languages--French. French is quite useful to people who spend time in France and Switzerland and study things like art history. That said, globalism has made French a bit less of the go-to language. There should be a second language, but Mandarin, Japanese and even Spanish are acceptable alternatives, depending where you are. In California Spanish is useful for quit jaunts to Mexico/Central America and for talking to the help.

One last thing--yeah, the Chinese are very class conscious and really can't figure out class here--part of it as that quite well-off, educated people like to work with their hands here--gardening, building things, pottery--and the Chinese just do not get that. They also don't get the don't-flaunt-your-wealth philosophy. We have a history of gentlemen farmers (George Washington) that's really foreign to the Chinese. Farming is for peasants, so is gardening.

R375 [quote]...that quite well-off, educated people like to work with their hands here--gardening, building things, pottery--and the Chinese just do not get that... We have a history of gentlemen farmers (George Washington) that's really foreign to the Chinese. Farming is for peasants, so is gardening.

China has a history of gentlemen farmers longer than anyone. It is one of the most romanticized and best known themes in Chinese history and literature. Fan Li (b. 517 BC), the legendary businessman and statesman, became a farmer in the end. Since then, there have been tons of intellectuals, officials and high-class gentlemen either dreamed about being or decided to be farmers. There is a whole school of Chinese poetry dedicated to this "gentleman farmer" lifestyle, now learned by every schoolchild in China.

Living in a gated community vs renting an apartment on a street with no curbs.

Going to a polytech that is NOT univeristy standard is SO lower middle class

By far too much class consciousness here in the States. I feel as if I'm back in Britain, or even worse hanging with Indian Brahmins. Why all the bother? Improve on what you can, but many posters here are downright comical. Table manners are still quite telling for the obsessed here. Please Americans, stop putting your napkins on the table or on your plate when you are still at table. That is meant to occur right before you take leave. (my only petty complaint)

R376, I'll take your word for it, but I've seen the puzzlement (and the lack of yard care) among Chinese immigrants more than once.

r375 great post, especially the end about the Chinese mentality RE: class

[quote] A lot of them aren't intentionally exclusive, by the way, but if you don't have the culture and the money to play (memberships, sizeable donations to the right charities), you're not going to be able to do what they do. Definitely helps if you grew up learning how to play tennis, golf, sail and ride horses.

[quote] Re: foreign languages--French. French is quite useful to people who spend time in France and Switzerland and study things like art history. That said, globalism has made French a bit less of the go-to language. There should be a second language, but Mandarin, Japanese and even Spanish are acceptable alternatives, depending where you are. In California Spanish is useful for quit jaunts to Mexico/Central America and for talking to the help.

Thanks for the backup R375 and both of these are excellent points, especially the one about how few of these institutions are intentionally exclusive, you just need money and a similar aesthetic to belong and/or in many cases, even know about them. And horseback riding has become a very female thing--I know a lot of women who ride but no guys. A friend of mine says she blames it on "My Little Pony" which made horses and ponies a very girly thing in our childhoods, lol.

When I was in high school and college (early-mid 00s) the idea was that French was useful for English and Art History majors but becoming much less so otherwise, Spanish was good for business and talking to workers, and that Russian, Arabic and Mandarin would give you an edge for any sort of international career (business or diplomacy)

I took French, but like most of my friends, I can speak enough Spanish, Italian and German to get directions, get a table at a restaurant and order, etc.--basic traveler stuff.

With Asians, clear translucent pale skin is prized by the upper class women, because tanned skin denotes you've been slaving away in the fields. Also for Chinese, small feet and shorter stature. Coco Chanel turned that idea on its head- tanned skin denoted that you had time to play tennis, or to go away to sunny exotic locations.

Not shorter, r383 (this practice is now banned)

Lower classes: Listens to country.

Upper classes: Weekends in the country.

If you don’t want to appear lower class trash, do the opposite of everything the Trumps do.

Margaret Visser talked about that. In past centuries in Europe, pale skin was prized. If you were tanned, you were probably some poor farm hand who had to work in the sun all day. Then in the second half of the 20th century, tans meant that you had time and money to vacation in exotic tropical locales. If you were very pale, you were probably toiling away in a factory all day. Now if you're Caucasian and deeply tanned, it means you don't care about skin cancer and wrinkles when you get older, ie. lower class.

What r387 says is true. I remember my European grandmother (born 1910 or so) being obsessive about not going in the sun, and wearing a hat or even carrying an umbrella to avoid that. She had great skin until she died at age 89, btw.

Also -- and this may strike Americans as odd -- up until the middle of the 20th century when the whole Nazi/ Aryan thing took off, it was considered desirable in Northern Europe to have dark hair and eyes (though not dark skin). It was because blond hair and blue eyes were so common that the dark hair/ eyes combo was exotic and attractive. I even remember my mother once getting a compliment from an old lady on the fact that five-year-old me was "dark" (and this might have been in 1980).

Obviously, that's not the case any more, because blond hair and blue eyes are both recessive traits, and there's been so much intermixing with southern Europeans or other ethnicities in the 20th century that blue eyes are becoming ever rarer.

[quote]It was because blond hair and blue eyes were so common that the dark hair/ eyes combo was exotic and attractive.

I still find it attractive, personally.

Competing in beauty pageants automatically mean lower-middle class.

Dear Lord in Heaven!

R388, your statement about blond hair being common seems odd. Only about two to five percent of the earth's population are naturally blond. It's hard to believe that number was significantly higher, even in North Europe, a mere fifty years ago.

Lower class people consume popular culture.

Upper class people enjoy classical music, art, and literature.

Mehhhhhh

I would say the ultimate sign of class would be where you send your children to school. Here in the northeast that means 40-50K per year boarding schools (Andover, Exeter, Milton Academy).

I’ve also noticed that in the town next to me, which is 200K+ household income demographic area, you will see $2-3M homes with Hondas in their garage or driveway. People are not showy at all. There are a ton of Range Rovers or that darn Audi SUV everywhere, though. Those cars are everywhere.

I’m terms of trying to spot someone in Boston with wealth it can be a little difficult. The foreign students are easy to spot because they are literally decked out in $5,000 outfits. (Many from Hong Kong) In terms of a local person I would say a very clean outfit, impeccable tailoring, a bag that’s Goyard or something that is NOT monogrammed. The wealthy like to keep it elusive. New money people on Newbury Street are painfully obvious.

"I would say the ultimate sign of class would be where you send your children to school."

Best Answer

R375, well put. And our tradition of gentlemen farmers derives from the English landed gentry. Anglo culture tends to value country living for the rich and well-born. Not that people in other countries don't also enjoy country houses, but the idea of being a country squire, so to speak, is very Anglo-American.

[quote] I wonder how the snobbery about driving expensive European cars instead of expensive American cars started.

R363, good question. I wonder if it began with postwar affluence, when many middle-class Americans could afford Cadillacs and Lincolns. The uppermost of the upper-middle class (which is really what a lot of these comments refer to, rather than the rare and remote genuine upper class) sought something to set themselves apart from the doctors and real estate developers in the expensive tract houses, so they went European.

On the other hand, fancy European sports cars have always been more fashionable than American sports cars, which tend to have working and lower-middle class associations. Today, the old-money crowd might prefer an older model just to avoid being showy.

Non-U: Posting and argue relentlessly on DL class marker thread.

U: Chuckle and ignore the peasants on the class marker thread.

I see you're non u like the rest of us r399, since you posted here.

R393 There is much truth to that about non-U being consumers of pop culture. I noticed among the upper class in New England that pop culture was not consumed. That was taken seriously by the masses, by people in the provinces, the hinterlands. They were not flashy or showy at all.

That brings the discussion to another trait I noticed among the children of the UC. That is faux rebellion, faux avant-garde behavior/values. Some of the UC that I dealt with in the late 1970s to the 1990s may have put on a good show being little latter day hippies. However, they knew exactly when and why and how to tow the line. They knew exactly when to abandon that type of behavior. They knew what was expected of them. Even if they kept the outward appearance, in values and behavior they were most certainly not rebels. That sort of behavior ( being a scruffy hippie rebel) was for the masses, for those NOKD. They knew what their place in life was going to get them. I am surprised this has not been mentioned yet.

Really? You sure about that?

Bringing a big entourage and making a huge spectacle at a graduation ceremony = non U

Marrying multiple Eastern European “models” who chain migrate their family to the US = Low Class

Surprised DL haven't yet discussed how gays fit in to the UC. Now quietly accepted but not publicly discussed?

Also how about interracial and/or intermarriage issues among the UC?

Interesting to me that my next-door-neighbors in San Diego fit very closely into the previous descriptions of UC. So did friends of friends with whom I once lunched in Palm Springs, they lived summers in Montecito.

"Also how about interracial and/or intermarriage issues among the UC?"

Perfectly acceptable.

R405 Class but not race/ ethnicity counts more with regards to intermarriage among the UC. That's why they tend to marry those within same level of socioeconomic background when they marry outside of their race or religion. I know many WASP men who are married to Asian-American women who are also from similar backgrounds (but Asian). They come from snobby, old-money, Western-educated Asian families who have been here since early half of 1900s. Think backgrounds of Vera Wang, Amy Chua, and Dara Huang, and you'll know what I'm talking about, rich and very well-educated families that have no trouble fitting into lifestyles of WASP elites.

R407, Understandable as both would have been brought up with very similar value systems. Likely the Caucasian male would be dominant in the marriage, right? Or at least have the public appearance of being the primary decision makers.

Someone driving a new Corvette is seen as tacky in the US. Upper Prole, most likely, using the scoring from Paul Fussell's book.

Upper classes read philosophy.

Lower classes share memes.

Upper Classes Drink

Lower Classes Drink

I don't think it's true that the upper class don't consume pop culture. They simply consume the high-brow stuff (which accounts for a small fraction of all of pop culture) so it just seems like they don't because they can't relate to discussion of things like the newest Taylor Swift album.

The upper classes measure their words.

The lower classes talk too much.

R407, R406, nominally, they ( interracial, gays) are accepted cordially. But privately, NOKD.

Are the upper classes into motion pictures yet? Are they into the "talkies"? That's pop culture.

R361 Thank you for your kind and informative response!

* grammar

* restraint

* consideration

* subtlety

* comprehension on a variety of subjects

* quality over quantity

R407 The general gist of that is true, but Amy Chua isn't quite old money. While her father's family did do well in the Philippines by Filipino standards, her parents started out in the US as broke students with stereotypical immigrant penny-pinching habits. A far cry from the wealthy mainland Chinese students nowadays who drive BMWs and throw money around every weekend.

R414, that can't be true because homosexuality is evenly distributed in the population. There have always been gay upper class people.

Unless you're talking about very openly gay people - that is, rainbow flags and Twitter accounts, two things that are wildly unlikely among the uppermost social classes for reasons having nothing to do with sexual orientation - then I think quiet tolerance was the norm for decades (since long before Stonewall), and today quiet acceptance is the rule.

Yes, R419, I think that if you came from the "right" type of family -- you had a name, or money, or both -- it didn't matter if you were gay. And that is really the essence of being "upper class:" you belong no matter who you are as an individual. Middle class strivers need brains and taste. Those things are all irrelevant if you are born to the right family and have the right connections. You have the most important trait anyone can have: you have the right parents.

Meh, Geneva has always had a population of gay "diplomatic" (or health) attachés who are basically the gay sons of very important families parked in Geneva Switzerland far away from the family's reputation. It used to matter a lot if you were gay, and in many countries it still does. They are black sheep and must be keep quiet in distant lands.

Well, Switzerland is a pretty nice place to be "exiled" to. Many of those guys were probably happy to be far away from their families anyway.

I am just making the point that being gay in the world's elite is only cool in a limited number of countries and within that, a limited number of families.

Might I address the issue of same sex attraction among the American upper classes in midcentury America

Edgewater and La Rondinaia - yum

R407, Amy Chua's not from an upper-class background and she's married to a Jewish guy, not a WASP. They're both tenured professors at Yale. They code as upper middle class (and striving), not upper class. Chua's way too nakedly ambitious and bitchy to fit in well with the yacht club set.

Chinese women generally don't have an issue with marrying for status--it strikes them as the logical, pragmatic thing to do. That said, while they may be marrying old money, what I've seen, personally, is a lot of them marrying professional types and programmers (some of whom are very well off.) They're attuned to things like college degrees from the Ivies and a few other elites, but less attuned to social/athletic networking., though tennis is now very much an Asian kid sport.

The upper class isn't a single entity in the U.S.--there are still some WASPs floating aroound, though a lot of them wonder why the rest of you find them fascinating; a whole set of rich Jews who have their own network of connections--Madoff was the biggest betrayal ever; then there's the West Coast where a few people make insane amounts of money in a short period. A lot of them masquerade as middle class for quite some time--all that money is actually kind of unnerving until you get used to it.

And, no, I'm not a member, but I keep ending up around them--wish I'd get the money occasionally.

It isn't just boarding schools that are the signs of exclusivity; there are plenty of upper-class day students. My cousin commuted the entire length of the red line every school day from Harvard Square to attend Milton.

Interesting that the previous poster mentioned yacht clubs, since my family has belonged to an old line one for several decades. Each summer on opening day there are free drinks at the ceremonies, which is similar to throwing several cow carcasses into a piranha tank.

The upper classes don't riot in the streets.

That's all very true and very sensible R426 and you are destroying the TCM/Preppy Handbook-inspired fantasy world many DLers hold near and dear.

But in your honor, I'll contribute something useful: a lot of what other perceive as "class markers" are not done purposefully.

To wit: I had briefly dated a guy who was fixated on what he perceived to be my social status.

He would often point out minor habits/ways of dressing that he claimed were class markers he'd had to learn but that me and my friends all did naturally. One that I remember was not tucking in tennis shirts, especially if you were not actually wearing one to play tennis.

He swore this was a very preppy/upper class thing to do, whereas to my mind, tucking in a tennis shirt just looked dorky, not "lower class"

Similarly, I remember my brother being confused by a college roommate who was fixated on the fact that he had a number of Brooks Brothers shirts, since to my brother, they were not particularly expensive and they were the same basic dress shirts that everyone he knew wore.

I hadn't intended to post, but having made it all the way to number 429 without a single mention of Patrick Dennis novels was just too much. His post-WWII-through-Vietnam-era novels (Auntie Mame, Around The World With Auntie Mame, Tony, How Firm A Foundation, Paradise, The Joyous Season, Genius...) are the epitome of everything this thread is talking about. Old money vs new money. Class vs status seekers. Even attitudes about homosexuals at various levels of society. Nearly every Dennis novel includes a character who is either pretending to be or striving toward an upper class lifestyle –Contrasted with those born to it who take everything for granted and don't see what the fuss is all about. Dennis makes fun of both groups, of course. Snobbery is bad, but pretense is worse. Worst of all is being a boor...

Clearly many of our DL posters have read at least one Patrick Dennis novel (several are back in print and available digitally now), as they seem to have crystalized their ideas about wealth, status, and class from that era. If you haven't read Dennis before, I highly recommend you start with Genius, as it is about everything mentioned in this thread. You'll laugh your ass off.

Oh, and I took the living room scale quiz. Got points for having a 50+ year-old piano, but no points for being able to play it? I'm confused...

Brevity, people.

R426 I know Amy Chua is married to a Jewish law professor, if you read my post I said her type not her specifically. The type with academics as parents and grew up in well-healed areas and go on to attend Ivy League schools. Her father's education and accomplishments plus the fact that she grew up in that sort of family environment, does make her UC. Whatever you think of AC's idea of parenting, I doubt that UC families would object to having their sons marry her or one of her daughters. Compare their background to way wealthier Kartrashians, and you'd know which type true WASP families would prefer. Anyways, Vera Wang has AC beat as far as UC creds go.

As for the impression that "Chinese women" marry for status or professional types, I think the experiences that you have may be limited though you're not incorrect in your views. There's newly rich Asians and then there's old money, very well-educated Asian families. One of my best friends, a WASP lesbian woman who went to boarding school in the east coast (she's from SF), told me that one of the reasons that she wasn't homesick was due to the fact that there was a sizable number of students who were Asian. Old money, well-educated Asian families with roots in the US, many of them Chinese and Korean ancestry. She said too bad she didn't t have anything common with those girls because they were just as snobby as the other WASPs.

[quote]In my experience, uppercrust people (many of whom come from old money) tend to

.... not use absurd terms like "uppercrust" to define themselves or others.

A year-round fruit bowl filled only with generic apples, oranges, and bananas marks a certain class of bland American eater.

I don't care for Mandarin food, R432.

And I wouldn't care for a Mandarin grandchild.

Shortbread?

R432, If Amy Chua's upper class, then so am I. I'm not and she's not. Yes, she went to Harvard, but before that she went to El Cerrito High School--which was then a decent public high school. There are public high schools in California attended by rich kids (the west has a bit of a reverse snobbery thing), but El Cerrito's not Beverly Hills or Palo Alto--and even in those places, there are private schools that future debs attend.

Professors, unless they have money through inheritance or other means, aren't upper class. They just don't make that kind of money.

Vera Wang, on the other hand, is one of those Chinese women who comes from a family that mattered in China and managed to have money in the U.S. as well. Unlike Chua, she attended one of those elite girl's schools (Chapin). So, yes, she's upper class by background, marriage, connections, money--the whole deal.

And, yes, a lot of Chinese-Americans come from well-off families in China--i.e. they got out--but in some cases that translates and at other times it doesn't. It's easier than it was with the resurgence of China. And, no, my experience isn't limited. It's interesting to see a culture that underwent such upheaval revert, a bit, to ancient norms and to see Chinese ideas of class mesh and conflict with European-American ones.

Then there's that other set of class-conscious successful set of Asian emigres--the Indians.

R429, Yep, the big giveaways on class are what we take for granted and how we eat, dress and behave when we're comfortable, which often has to do with how we grew up.

R430, the weird thing to me about Patrick Dennis is how he ran through his money and ended up as a butler for Roy Croc. He was his own best novel.

Oh please, is Amy Chua posting in this thread?

She is NOT upper class!

Class markers in the United States of America?

Who cares?

Trash is VERY entertaining.

old Mercedes, Volvo, Audi, and in some cases leftover Saab Old, but clean and well tailored classic clothing Ultra polite, will speak with anyone but not too inquisitive Private, extremely small circle of friends

They have a Mercedes, sauna and room for a pony.

The upper classes don't leave the TV on for background noise.

Remember chickies, the longer your posts are in this thread, the more of your non- U roots being revealed.

The ultimate upper class marker: not being punished for your crimes.

R380 I should've clarified that I was not arguing with your observation, which I found very interesting and insightful. I was just trying to put it out there that the idea of gentleman farmer is not foreign to the Chinese, at least historically. One explanation for the puzzlement among today's nouveau riche is probably the hukou system, the segregation of urban (superior) and rural (inferior) residents in China. Living in the country therefore means something very different in China than it does in the US. OTOH, very few urban dwellers live in houses with courtyards (which I believe are widely banned due to the "land saving" policy), that's why gardening is hardly a thing among city-born Chinese, who have at best taken care of their bonsai on the balcony.

Upper classes let it go.

R430, thank you for bringing up Patrick Dennis. It's hardly surprising that a closeted gay man wrote the Auntie Mame novels. The fact that he was gay gave him a keen eye for pretense.

Greater acceptance of LGBT individuals in larger society will lead to greater acceptance of gay sons and daughters amongst the upper class.

But until recently,upper class families generally ignored the living arrangements of their the gay sons or daughters. And never spoke of it. Their son or daughter had a "friend."

There was also a whole group of gay men who were "Walkers," like Jerry Zipkin. He squired Betsy Bloomingdale and Nancy Reagan around. Everyone knew he was gay. No one spoke of it. Who could be less of a threat to a wealthy, married woman of a certain age who lunched than a gay man? In light of the recently released tapes of conversations between Reagan and Nixon, I can just imagine what Ronnie said about Jerry behind closed doors.

My great uncle was a lifelong confirmed bachelor. He had a housekeeper and a squadron of male buddies. The two closest were named Bunny and Spider, both of whom lived with their elderly mothers. They all liked to drink and play cards at the men’s club and I’m sure they were gay. My uncle had great taste, took me to the theatre, and carried several bottles of bourbon around with him in a little suitcase. He really was like a character out of Patrick Dennis or PG Wodehouse.

R444, No problem. I met a couple of Chinese exchange students back in the 80s, when the Chinese government was just starting to let students travel--and one of the things that really came across is what a huge split there was between city dwellers and people in rural areas--the students called them "peasants" as a matter of course. The Chinese have always taken education seriously as a class marker--far more so than the British or Americans. My guess is that it may be even more the case today since you can take your education with you. A large percentage of rich Chinese want to be able to get out of China if they need to.

I think, too, that there are still limits on private land ownership in China, which would discourage any serious revival of the gentlemen farmer tradition.

There are Asian immigrants to the U.S. who did come over as farmers (non-gentlemen type)--the Japanese-Americans, who despite having their land stolen from then during the WWII) still have farms in California and Hawai'i and the Filipinos (big class range of immigrants from the Philippines).

Building the largest residential home in the U.S.--in Florida!--and calling it "Versailles." Jealous, bitches?

I was teaching at a Swiss prep school when the first steady stream of Chinese rich kids showed up. They were sweet as pie, and often had lousy teeth and poor dental hygiene. They also refused to discuss anything political. Now, I'm a university prof and I get some Chinese students and see many around the cities. They glisten like thoroughbreds, which indeed they are, for example having mastered French or German to attend university here. Taller and broader and better looking then the generation before them. Perfectly groomed in high lux tasteful clothes, gliding confidently and a bit cynically, with fantastic cars, they are identical to the the ultra rich kids from other plutocracies.

So long as we're on this: the next level down of Chinese and Indians have been moving, in sizable numbers, into the upper middle class suburbs of major American cities over the past 10 years or so. These are recent immigrants (if indeed they are immigrants rather than just H1B visa holders) who have well paid jobs in tech, engineering, finance. They often bring the family with them and grandma and grandpa watch the kids while mom and dad work.

The kids may suffer from Tiger Momming, but they do integrate into the American upper middle classes pretty quickly, and, as a co-worker who lives in one of these towns recently told me "they get the American kids more focused on school and less focused on materialism" (which is as much generational as anything, but probably true at some level too.)

I've been sort of surprised that their is not more anger directed at this group, given that they are taking relatively high paying jobs away from Americans and have leapfrogged into the upper middle class. Most seem to come from fairly wealthy families in China and India who can help out with down payments and college tuitions.

The ones I've known are all happy to be in the US and seem to have the attitude that their home countries are just really tough places to live with so many restrictions and hands out for bribes and all that, they like living in the US and the opportunity here and have zero interest in ever going back.

[quote]I've been sort of surprised that their is not more anger directed at this group, given that they are taking relatively high paying jobs away from Americans and have leapfrogged into the upper middle class.

Possibly because they assimilate so well, and their kids are 100% culturally American. To put it kind of crudely, they act exactly like "white people" right out of the gate.

Good point R452, though I thought that might have angered other POCs because they don't act like "white people" and thus find it harder to integrate into the UMC, that these newcomers leapfrogged past them.

But it may be that in our current society, where Disney World is literally one of the only places the various social classes rub shoulders, that they are simply not aware of them.

YMF, I'm guessing on the latter. Other POCs are just not aware of them. You don't see them represented much in media, and if you don't live and work amongst them, they're kind of "invisible," so to speak. That's purely my theory, however.

It's interesting you brought up this subject, in regards to class in America. It's not something that's really discussed much, imho.

Low class people over-explain.

Agreed R452/54. And thanks.

I don't think Indians are allowed to immigrate to the US unless they're the sort of people who are excited to move into a neighborhood ruled by a vicious HOA. This isn't a recent thing, it's just the tech guys following the path of doctors and hoteliers. Indian professionals (i.e. the only ones you'll have contact with) have an enormous amount of cultural overlap with the most racist and insular of our white suburbanites. It's almost amusing how they have a hard time grasping how racism works here. They totally agree with the irrational discrimination and categorical disparagement, they're just constantly amazed that someone would mistake them for the lesser race.

R455, Better to be considered low-class by some than simply to pretend to understand concepts about the real world. Those who ask relevant questions possess the most intelligence and awareness.

Indians have the caste system, and the Brahmins are the ones we meet, so yes, they are snobs to say the least.

Pheasant feathers. Personal photographers. Custom office designed & decorated by EuroTrash LLC.

For Chinese Americans such as Vera Wang and Amy Chua, there is a telltale clue about their family backgrounds: their Chinese names. It was also one of the surest class markers in the Chinese world until the Communist revolution. Vera Wang's Chinese name 王薇薇, "rose rose," is slightly better than Amy Chua's 蔡美兒, which basically means "pretty." Both strike a down-to-earth, next-door girl's note, which is fine with the middle class but definitely not wanted by the lofty, classics-quoting upper-class. Same can be said of Gary Locke (駱家輝) and Elaine Chao (趙小蘭), meaning respectively "family's honor" (James Smith for Chinese) and "little orchid." OTOH, I. M. Pei (貝聿銘) and Steven Chu (朱棣文) are on a totally different level, with Chinese names tastefully (and untranslatably) sophisticated, thus unmistakably well-born. In fact, if not because of their celebrity, I don't think many native speakers could even recognize and pronounce those literary, almost archaic Chinese characters used in their names.

And because of my first impression of Vera Wang's Chinese name, I didn't think much about her linage until I saw some poster talk about it here. To say that her family actually "mattered" back in China, as I find out, would be a bit of an exaggeration. Her family started only from her maternal grandfather, a low-born warlord, which was anything but classy for the scholar-worshipping Chinese culture, though warlord's children, if they were educated enough and their father still untoppled, might have a shot at the polite society, for instance, the Manchurian warlord's son Zhang Xueliang would be going with Edda Mussolini as well as Soong Mei-ling (later Madame Chiang).

Who cares about Chinese b.s.? They're NOKD.

Well this conversation has certainly drifted, but in an interesting way. We've gone from what is upper class, that vague sense that we really do have an aristocracy in this country (we don't), more toward who is useful, who is polite, who is wealthy. We just can't shake that tiresome puritanism, that you only get to be upper class if you are somehow useful, even though the whole point of aristocracy once upon a time was to be kinda useless. Now we're down to Chinese academics and financiers.

Fuck the Chinese cunts! They have a dog eating festival in China!!! Nobody gives a shit about them! All fucking spies, here to steal US tech and biz info.

R462/R464 Do you want to send them back?

Of course not r465.

The upper classes smell better.

Only people of a *certain* class wear their pajamas in public (if you've ever been inside a Walmart you'll know what I'm talking about).

I'm proud to say I've never been to Walmart and never will!

R468

I beg to differ.

Lower classes don’t spay or neuter their dogs and upper classes adopt the resulting abandoned pets.

Interesting what you write, r461.

I remember reading a few years ago that people with rare or unusual names in China were having problems with electronic databases. It seems Chinese keyboards are typed phonetically to ge the characters to appear onscreen, and rare characters sometimes just don't come up at all.

It never occurred to me that those names/ characters were associated with people of traditionally higher social stature. I guess it's like with the Ancien Regime in France, who never could get their minds around how a parvenu like Bonaparte could have as extravagant a first name as "Napoléon" -- when all his brothers had common names like Louis and Joseph and Lucien!

Enough with those Chinese.

OP, are you still with us?

The US has always been more ASS than CLASS. How else would the Dotard make it anywhere near the White House?

A good book for the class watchers is Cheerful Money, by Tad Friend. A seductive excerpt:

[quote]My father flew to Sarasota in late February of 1994, when Charles was in extremis, and found his brother still very much in character. When the nurse said, "You just lay there quietly," he replied, "No, I'll just lie here." When she looked at him, he said, "I'm still the house grammatician." (My father later told the nurse, "That's okay; the word is 'grammarian.'")

Cashmere thongs in the winter are clear indicators of high class

Tiger Mommy Amy Chua is low class trash. Look at the way that tart dresses. Pimping out her little lawyerettes to judges. Now the Soong Sisters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soong_sisters

Don't get me started on Indian Brahmins.

Middle and upper class parents can afford to have their sons circumcised.

r124 You use "vitiated" when you mean "dissipated"? Classy.

Classy people generally don't pick at their feet in public.

Upper class women read "Town and Country" magazine. Or is that upper class wannabes?

The upper classes do not have lower GI functions.

A Veranda subscription.

Posting on DL is a distinctive class marker, and I'm surprised no one's mentioned it yet.

Mr. Sketch are my favorite markers for art class, but a Sharpie will do in a pinch.

I knew a woman who thought Spencer should only use Caran D'ache crayons. Crayola was beneath them.

[quote] It's hard to marry someone outside of your class.

Tell me about it.

R446

Well, one of the words that was on his list that first night was HETEROSEXUAL.

If you drive an old Mercedes diesel, you have lots of class

Your wedding is featured in the New York Times.

Your non bleached anus is featured in Town and Cuntry

Anyone who doesn’t dress like they’re at the beach or the gym outside of office hours.

You guys keep posting endlessly about 'class markers' while most of you don't even realize how trashy the epitome of social class, the British royal family, has become: Meghan, Fergy, Harry, Andrew, Camilla, Beatrice and Eugene etc. are trashy as fuck and mostly tabloid material. Divorces and cheating non stop. Social class is obsolete, nowadays it's all about money and attention.

R494 has a point

These days? Yoga, veganism, Equinox, carrying one's own water bottle all suggest at least upper-middle class status. It's the same in the UK.

People like Margaret Qualley and Eddie Redmayne seem to me like they were educated with attention to class. I'm posting about young people because we already know about the older ones.

The Danish crown prince married a stripper, didn't he? The queen of the Netherlands has a 'problematical' background, too. The royal family of Monaco is trashy beyond belief, especially Stephanie. Class is dead, nowadays it's about the individual.

The Danish crown prince married a stripper, didn't he? The queen of the Netherlands has a 'problematical' background, too. The royal family of Monaco is trashy beyond belief, especially Stephanie. Class is dead, nowadays it's about the individual.³

[quote]People like Margaret Qualley and Eddie Redmayne seem to me like they were educated with attention to class.

Don't forget Cumberbatch. He seems to live and breathe it.

Education, taste, speech, exclusivity.

R491, at one time yes, but anyone can get their wedding announcements in "The Gray Lady" nowadays.

At one time, those who were bred well only appeared in the newspapers four times in their lives: the announcements for their births, engagements, weddings, and deaths. Those announcements underlined one's antecedents along with their educational backgrounds and career choices. It was there one could read about a betrothed young lady's great, great grandfather who was an undersecretary in the Hayes Administration and remember the connection between him and your Great Aunt May, who turned down a proposal from that distinguished forebear.

Now, one must endure reading about the manner in which couples first locked eyes upon each other at a local public house!

Ah! Après nous le déluge!

The Monaco family are princely, not royal.

Le déluge, for sure R502

Prep school and Yale guy here. Didn't grow up wealthy. For the upper classes (not the 1%, but the comfortably wealthy - dad makes 7 figures, new money essentially), I've noticed:

Education (Ivy League still dominates), including graduate degrees.

Manner of speaking, politeness (saying thank you. including to staff; who/whom)

Social concern (environment, animals (a big one). poverty, children (a big one)).

I find that they also don't watch much television. They don't know anything about celebrities (or pretend not to know). They do this thing where they smile a little and shake their heads in confusion when an actor or movie comes up in conversation. It's kind of annoying.

They often read the Economist.

There's this demeanor they have - kind of quiet, observational. patient - and they signal that they're listening by giving these very quick nod-smiles (kind of like grimaces of pain, actually). Like they're in another dimension, somewhat disengaged from the back-and-forth negotiation of one's way in the world. '

Yes, Lululemon and veganism. They're slim/toned. They pretend never to have heard of chain restaurants like Morton's or god forbid, the Olive Garden. It's like they've never watched TV and seen an ad.

If they pretend they never watch TV, R505, what do they do with their spare time -- playing tennis, sailing, horseback riding, studying classics of world literature?

It’s something that only people with no real issues or interests care about.

R506, they travel (the really famous places, but also lots of weird new places I've never heard of and Google afterwards), do charity work, spend time with family, socialize/meet up with friends, read, go to the gym (no home gyms, actually, except Peloton for a few of my friends), and they have their particular hobbies (chess, photography, home renovation/tech (Crestron), yoga/Pilates). Dining is big. "Plant-based" is big.

Some don't work. A few do "social impact" consulting (i.e., "I know how to get other wealthy people to invest with you to help change the world.") But those types actually are in the 1%, if not the 0.01% (1900s robber baron families, literally, with very famous last names).

Golf, the country club, even tennis are out. The horsey stuff is totally out, unless it's something like spending time with rescued horses at some kind of farm sanctuary - It's truly a new world, I guess. Everything in "Dynasty" and on TV is basically the opposite of how it actually is, it seems.

So much of it is weird to me. I'm not part of their groups. I just went to school with them and get dinner with them.

r508, I would imagine the younger ones into global conservatism or Médicins sans Frontiéres type stuff.

R509, I think MSF is a bit much for most of them. They may donate, but I've never heard of them being particularly into really intense conflict-related charity work (e.g., Congolese civil war, Syria). No special fundraising events for things like that.

Global conservation? Yes. Rainforests in Borneo, climate change ... a few other things I don't remember (probably b/c I didn't know what they were referring to) as well.

R505, Why Lulemon rather than yoga/pilates classes elsewhere? How many of those who went to prep school work full-time? Do any cook, or do they have servants to handle anything beyond quick preparation? Assume all are always dieting.

Why is tennis out of favor? How about golf? Perhaps like country clubs it's a sign of an older generation?

R511 I'm not sure they really see it as dieting, more like "having a healthy diet", or regimen, if you prefer. Letting yourself go is considered in poor class. Having tons of muscles, laughable. They usually have naturally toned bodies, and if they have some extra weight, the amounts tend to be reasonable and they will still be toned.

[quote] They do this thing where they smile a little and shake their heads in confusion when an actor or movie comes up in conversation.

I might have been accused of this on more than one occasion.

But otherwise well done R505, unlike most of the other commentary on here.

It's not that we don't watch TV, we don't watch [italic] broadcast [/italic] TV. Netflix, HBO, Hulu, Amazon and all that are okay. But don't ask anyone what's on CBS tonight or the difference between Housewives and Bachelorettes.

Spot on about the charity thing too. Constantly getting hit up for homeless Irish Setters and charities that save specific deserts and rainforests and the like. The more obscure the better, it seems.

And most everyone works or pretends to work R511. Lots of women I went to school with get graduate degrees from good schools and all that. I'm 34 and in the last year or two, as they're having children many of them are leaving the work force though. Their husbands make enough to support the family and they're going to be all about raising the kids, though will still do some "consulting" or pretend consulting with their old firms or they join the board of the preschool and that becomes a full time job.

Tennis and golf are just too time consuming and too much "mom and dad" activities. I play both, but not regularly, and it is not front and center like it is for people my parents age.

Exactly R512

It's sort of unspoken. No one says "I'm on keto" or "I'm doing paleo"

More like no one orders bread, no one orders giant cheese-filled entrees. If there's dessert, it's split between four people and everyone has two bites. Ditto appetizers--one for the table.

And no one is "shredded" or "ripped"

The Lululemon reference means that they buy their work-out clothes from Lululemon. Even the men. It's de rigueur at all the "destination" (i.e., even more expensive) Equinox locations.

The country club + tennis and golf thing? They're unfashionable because they're things that their parents were into. Also, they're things wealthy people in the South and the aspirational classes everywhere do to show wealth — so they're even more unfashionable. Going to a tennis match? That's fine every few years to spend an afternoon, with drinks and dinner after, but very few are playing tennis on weekends (though they might have done so in high school).

Tennis and golf are like Brooks Brothers, pink chinos and boat shoes in the summer. That's for Southern people trying to show off in the "big city," DC. It's super embarrassing to them, and makes them cringe.

A few of my gay 1% types say that a guy with lots of muscles is nice for playing around with quietly, but that type of guy isn't whom one brings to alumni gatherings in New Haven, etc. It's embarrassing.

They're so easily embarrassed.

My father played golf and did a ton of networking on the golf course, but now I don't know anyone who plays (I'm middle-aged). The only younger people I know who play are Asian. Hadn't thought much about tennis, but similar there.

Skiing, boating and various kinds of adventure travel seem to still be more acceptable.

[quote] Also, they're things wealthy people in the South and the aspirational classes everywhere do to show wealth — so they're even more unfashionable

[quote] Tennis and golf are like Brooks Brothers, pink chinos and boat shoes in the summer. That's for Southern people trying to show off

Yes X100000

I swear it has felt like I've been pissing in the wind on here, so nice to get backup.

You have nailed this sense that there's the subculture of people in sunbelt suburbs who are trying desperately to position themselves as UMC, with their $300K McMansions on cul-de-sacs and kids with what my mom refers to as "Ralph Lauren names" (McKenzie, Hunter, Raleigh, etc.) and all that comes with it.

And also correct on the big muscles thing--people who are "in shape" are more lean, look good in clothes, not gay Instaho muscle, or (worse) gay 1990s steroid muscle.

Time is also an issue in the decline of golf, in particular. No one has that much time to devote to an essentially non-athletic activity. If you're out at the beach, you might have an hour to go for a run or a bike ride, not four hours to play golf.

I’ve got the hardest job in the world and I can find time for a few hundred rounds of golf!

[quote] How many of those who went to prep school work full-time? Do any cook, or do they have servants to handle anything beyond quick preparation? Assume all are always dieting.

They don't have servants, generally. Two of those types I know who do have staff have these weird professional-looking people around... I guess they call them "helpers" or by first name. Like one is a former senator's son, and I think he has this older woman who used to be on the senator's staff as his family's ... concierge or something. Both also have cooks from their parents' homes (older women who are "part of the family). And of course they have people who come in and clean every few days, same as all of the rest who don't have staff.

For food, everyone eats out and orders in (vegan, ethnic, ethnic vegan lol), some do meal delivery because they like to cook. Many have groceries delivered. A few like to walk to Whole Foods and carry their own things home (like normal people). Just those two friends have live-in cooks.

I'd say about half work. Lawyers (a few), physicians (not the main source of income, usually the wife), hedge fund guys, professors (humanities). I don't know tech people. But those from the half who don't work "consult," and once (more like "if" these days) they have children (I'm 35), the women basically stop working. They focus on the children and charities (that's their "work"). And on health.

What else... Oh, how could I forget — cats and dogs. They adopt (vs. buying) them, generally. They also baby them. That's the thing now. Breeders and particular breeds are out — that's another Southern wealth/aspirational thing, having purebred dogs. Everyone has a rescue now. And of course they do charitable work for dogs and cats. North Shore Animal ... rescue or shelter, and wildlife rehab places — I know four women who do that sort of work and they're very wealthy. They're not snobs, though. They actually clean cages and feed the poor animals, in addition to raising money.

None of them are snobs, really, except against wealthy Southerners and aspirational types. That is, they don't "look down" or mock anyone less privileged. Quite the opposite, actually, as they show a lot of concern about society, the environment, and the vulnerable (children, animals). Also, every single one of them I whom I know will do things like go with me to a hole-in-the-wall vegan Thai place, for example, and will (say that they) like what little food they actually eat. They love that stuff — places with bad sidewalks outside of them, run by small immigrant families. It's a whole thing with them. It's all part of the way of life, but I'm actually happy that they're like that and not super snobbish and self-conscious about their status. E.g., it's not "I'm buying a Tesla because it's expensive and a way to show off." It's "I'm buying a Tesla to be environmentally responsible and so that the company has a future."

I'm talking about Acela Corridor people (Boston to Washington) people here. Groton people. Yale people. I don't know about the West Coast.

Having "servants" is definitely uncool, it turns you into (direct quote) "one of those people the NYT Style section likes to make fun of."

People get around that once they have kids though by expanding the role of the "babysitter" (don't say "nanny") who often seems to take on cleaning, cooking and shopping duties in addition to watching the kids. When there are two or more kids, two or more "babysitters" are on call, because the wife is busy with the preschool board, helping out on a random assignment for the law firm she used to work at, and raising awareness of the plight of the Malagasy lemur.

R159 - fascinating to read your descriptions, and also, I might add, inspiring. It's nice to hear there's a lack of snobbishness and that the predictably show-offish qualities seem to be relegated now to the aspirational types.

This is one of the most vibrantly evil Datalounge threads ever! The petty bickering and one upmanship are apocalyptic.

I'm on the West Coast--no one has "servants"--they have "staff", but they do have them. And, at least the ones I knew, were well treated--it's declasse to treat your nanny badly, plus good nannies are in demand--your nanny can and will get poached.

One reason for the decline in golf where I am is that golf is bad for the environment--uses up water, fertilizers and pesticides do a number on things like coral reefs (no, no coral reefs out here, but Hawai'i's the home away from home for a lot of them.) But I think the time thing is also right.

Haven't seen as much of the vegan thing, but everyone's very food/health conscious. Being overweight indicates a lack of discipline.

The Ivies aren't quite as much of a thing here--they're still prestigious, but Stanford is the school for local power networking. The Ivies are seen as, well, a little out-of-touch--not really known for CS/engineering (the Bay Area) or film (SoCal).

[quote]Tennis and golf are like Brooks Brothers, pink chinos and boat shoes in the summer. That's for Southern people trying to show off in the "big city," DC. It's super embarrassing to them, and makes them cringe.

Then which stores do they go to to buy their clothes?

r11 types obese

[quote]it's declasse to treat your nanny badly

Yeah. They might write a tell-all book like "The Nanny Diaries".

R524, any number of other places. Nordstrom is popular and well-liked. They care about a good value, usually, unless it's for a special event. And they're generally not big shoppers of clothes, etc. It's more about travel, health, even education.

It's interesting to see the (relatively minor) differences between DC, NYC and the West Coast.

I suspect things may be very different in Flyoverstan

R48 - teeth aren’t it. There are plenty of wealthy people who hate dentists.

Someone here on this thread is having a great deal of fun making stuff up! Please take a grain of salt with all this inside information (including mine) on how the upper classes live.

A senator's son with a family retainer cooking for him? Puhlease! Perhaps when he's back home visiting Mom and Dad. Not if he's on his own or with roommates in his twenties. Even the Heinz' sons had to learn to cook a Sunday roast!

Prep schools and Ivy League schools? Yes. Add places like Williams to the list. And watch how they instinctually gravitate toward one another.

Politeness? Of course! And knowing which utensil to use for every course!

Bragging? Never! 'Tis the gravest of sins.

The gay men from Old Money who might have a dalliance with a muscle-bound Guido, but who would never think of taking him to Cambridge or New Haven for Alumni Day! Oh, please...sounds like an aristocrat going out for a bit of Rough Trade or Jean Genet's misspent youth!

Love reading this thread. Thanks, esp. YMF!

If you use the words "drapes" or "evening gown" around people of a certain pedigree, it will take 20 years before they can let it go and stop judging you.

I take it someone went to Williams. Gross. Sad.

Dear Lord in Heaven!

If having servants in one's employ makes one uncomfortable or uncool, well.... perhaps one shouldn't employ servants. Simple.

My late grandfather taught me and my sisters how to speak with household help and tradespeople when we were small children. Always kindly, politely, but firmly. Patiently, but with quiet authority. "Kindly" does not equal "friendly." I am their employer and/or patron, not their friend.

This is how my grandfather kept the same handful of domestics in his household employ for decades. They mourned his passing along with his family.

Good workers appreciate their good jobs and moreso, appreciate employers and/or patrons who understand the dynamic. When I encounter sullen, rude, or incompetent help, I remain pleasant.... but I take my patronage elsewhere.

For what purpose is this information being collected? So, Oleg and Nadya can pass as Americans more easily?

r534 did you reprimand them if they didn't tug their forelocks and look at you sheepishly when being spoken to by their "betters?"

R536, what did R534 say that's untrue? His way of saying it may have displeased you, but in fact that's exactly the way servants (whether you call them "the help", "staff", "babysitters" or any other euphemism) and any other employee should be and generally want to be treated.

With pleasant courtesy, dignity, kindness, understanding, fairness ... and not with false friendliness, however well-intended.

It doesn't matter what level of employee you are, whether a domestic servant or a senior vice president, nothing is more uncomfortable and ultimately more fraught with disaster than your boss trying to be your personal friend as well.

FFS R537, the tonality of the post was "Victorian Era Handbook On How To Talk To One's Household Staff. Prepared For Young Men and Young Women Of Good Breeding by Miss Lucinda McIntyre, Headmistress of the Cheltanham School For Young Ladies"

Which, if I had to guess, is exactly where the notion of it was lifted from. (That, or a Dickens novel.)

And missed the cultural relevance of "young men and women of good breeding" pretending they don't actually employ servants while Bubba and Lisa Sue McMansion of The Knolls At Pheasant Run: A Gated Community Of Exquisite Estate Homes. Starting at $304,000 in the suburbs of Charlotte, NC are only too happy to refer to their "nanny" and "cook"

And thank you R530/BPC. This is one of the more amusing threads in on DL and appreciate that you're getting where I'm coming from.

New Yorkers with money buy the entire cruise line(fashion), sight unseen. They buy the whole line from brands direct.

YMF, I'm not sure what set you off here. R534's comment was phrased in an old-fashioned and condescending way, but what he said was true. That was my point.

I'm mystified by your references to "young men and women of good breeding". There have been a couple of mentions of the tendency to use euphemisms to avoid words that suggest domestic service, all the while employing domestic servants. I included a reference to that only to make the point that all employees, including servants by any name, should be treated with fairness, kindness and courtesy but not with attempts at friendship.

No one said they should be treated rudely R540. Or familiarly, for that matter. Just that it's considered pretentious to refer to them as "staff" or similar. No one's becoming chums with the housekeeper just because they're calling her a "babysitter" lol.

But you are correct on both points, though I think you can understand how the fact that the comment was "phrased in an old-fashioned and condescending way" was why R537 responded the way they did. They were mocking the tonality, not the sentiment

The other piece many of you are missing (so long as I'm on a roll here) is that it is never our fault and nothing we do is rude or wrong or "low class".

So if Chip decides to take up bowling or bodybuilding, it's merely a charmingly quirky hobby that good old Chip is taking up. Not "oh dear, Chip has become lower class."

Similarly, if Caroline drinks out of my water glass by mistake, it's clearly the restaurant's fault for putting the glasses too close to each other for anyone to tell whose is whose. That, or Caroline had so much to drink, she didn't even realize she was drinking from my water glass.

And if Mark wears jeans to someone's wedding where everyone else is in a suit or black tie? "Well he's working in tech now. That's just how everyone there dresses." Not "oh Mark is a low class slob who wears jeans to a wedding."

See how that works?

Brevity

[quote]The other piece many of you are missing (so long as I'm on a roll here) is that it is never our fault and nothing we do is rude or wrong or "low class".

This is an exciting display of self-awareness.

Good lord, what a bore YMF is.

[quote]This is how my grandfather kept the same handful of domestics in his household employ for decades. They mourned his passing along with his family.

Only in front of you and your family. It was actually more like this when you weren't around.......

[And if Mark wears jeans to someone's wedding where everyone else is in a suit or black tie? "Well he's working in tech now. That's just how everyone there dresses." Not "oh Mark is a low class slob who wears jeans to a wedding."]

No YMF/R542, if Mark were brought up correctly, he would never wear jeans to a wedding, unless the wedding was on the beach!

Still...

YMF, you're describing younger upper-class people, not the older ones. A lot of young affluents live in cities--their dwellings aren't huge, but have location, location, location going for them. They don't have staffs because they don't need them. You don't need a cook when you can order out or use a food service that preps your nutritionally perfect meal.

The people I know who have staffs have houses--multiple houses, so they have people who run them. Where I am (west coast), there's often a housekeeper, some sort of house manager if there's a lot of money (housekeeper and manager may be a couple), one nanny or more, some sort of yard staff. And, because so many things are outsourced these days, the wife might have her own personal assistant to manage all this stuff and staff.

This is on the West Coast, so there isn't as much of the old money blue-blood thing out here, but the sheer amount of money makes up for it. There's a hell of a lot of money--nouveau tres riche.

Or as a mother of a kid once said to me, "The mothers with the $5 million houses sneer at the mothers with the $2 million houses." (This was a few years back, so double those prices. )

This was at a public school.

What does the house manager do? Do they only work for one family, or multiple families?

I honestly don't know--I think it's kind of a modern-day version of a butler, but I'm a lowly pleb. I don't think I've ever met anyone who had a kitchen staff, though there are private chef services. I think caterers took over that function.

Yes, you can actually attend a school for training and certification to become a Household Manager (or whatever your choice of title might be).

No one wants an old-fashioned English-style butler, but a manager to run everything (menu, groceries, cleaning, entertaining, repairs) is invaluable. Certified and experienced ones can actually make serious money (ie, 6 figures annually, or close to it) even as most of their living expenses are paid for. OTOH, it can be a 24/7 grueling job, in some cases.

All true R548--the people I am referring to are under 40. And as noted, they'll get the "babysitter" to cook because she is ostensibly cooking for the kids, and while she's at it. could she fix a salad for them as well....

"House manager" is actually a great example of what I'm talking about.

It sounds like someone who works for your business, not someone who works for your family, like you've hired said "house manager" to oversee your real estate holdings, which is much less affected than "butler".

See how that works?

(And BPC, "Mark" is more likely clueless and in need of a girlfriend than improperly parented.)

even the gardener of a very rich person in the hamptons makes over 6 figures.

[quote] (And BPC, "Mark" is more likely clueless and in need of a girlfriend than improperly parented.)

Thank you for that clarification, YMF. Still, Nanny would hardly be amused by his sartorial simplicity!

[quote] like you've hired said "house manager" to oversee your real estate holdings, which is much less affected than "butler".

I see what you mean, YMF, but "house manager" is actually much more affected that "butler" ... as you probably know.

"Butler" is the original name for this historic occupation. Many (not all, I realize) of these families would have had a butler 100 years ago. Inventing a new name for an old job to make yourself feel better and seem less stuffy and snobbish - all the while being as snobbish as your grandparents, albeit about different things - is practically the definition of affected.

No criticism intended; I'm enjoying your contributions to this thread and the discussion they stimulate.

[R505] The comment about the upper-crust manner of talking, in that slight, sort of distracted way, was the most brilliant of these observations. I’ve noticed it, but never heard it articulated before. I cant stand it, because it sounds beyond condescending, due to the sense of excessive patience that the speaker has to muster up in order to communicate with lesser lifeforms. I can’t believe all of you think that prep snobbery has given way to humble public service. The luluman, rescued pit bulls, veganism etc. is a more insidious form of snobbery dressed down in new packaging. Williams is a dump, btw.

Even the Queen takes a dump and farts. No one is above anyone else. She’ll die too just like the rest of us.

R555 here - As soon as I hit "Post", I asked myself what I would call such a person if I employed one. The idea is so far-fetched that it's hard to think about seriously, but the answer is that I don't know.

"Butler" sounds not so much pretentious as antique to me. It makes me think of someone my grandmother's age (thus long dead), not that my grandmother had a butler. The word might sound pretentious if the person hiring him was pretentious.

Anyway, I'd probably say "household manager", if that's the current accepted term. Then again, I also call our secretaries at work "office administrators" because that's the title for the job at my organization, and I'm not a swim against the tide kind of guy. They're still secretaries, though. "Household manager" will eventually go the way of "butler", and people who employ such staff will have to think of an even more egalitarian name for the most senior of their servants.

Butler is a career and not a bad one. Stop changing names to make people feel less “offended”.

R557, when, WHEN?!?!

That pretty much nails it R558. No one wants to sound like a character from Downton Abbey. (DL Maiden Aunt Brigadeers aside.)

The new rich have no loyalty to their servants. They hire and fire quickly.

R551 - Interesting read, thank you. I got distracted perusing a few other articles in that magazine too. A peek into another world, for sure.

My great-aunt Philippa (dearest Poppy to friends and family!) had a houseman, Creighton, in her employ for many, many years.

Not a butler. Not a "house manager." Creighton was her loyal houseman who helped organize every detail of her life. When Poppy traveled for extended stays, Creighton traveled along with her.

Pasta is eaten al dente.

R530 Isn’t Anderson Cooper exclusively dating ethnic muscle men? And wasn’t his mom a whore who bragged about the men she had?

Cooper loves muscles and big Latino cocks. But that doesn't mean he socializes with these boys. Or even dines with them.

Cooper's ex-BF Ben the Bartender was French, not Latino, but muscular and rumored to be hung. It was only after being called out in the press (and here on DL!) for the numerous public appearances where Ben would walk 10 paces behind Anderson that Anderson even went public with the relationship to any extent. Just ridiculous.

No wonder Ben cheated on him and they eventually broke up. I hope Cooper settled some cash on him for his "service."

Being thin

The way people talk to waiters and bartenders and retail workers. It's decidedly not rude but with an assumption of familiarity. The "thank you" comes at the end as an afterthought yet it's sincere. They have special requests but not annoying, elaborate ones. It's really the tone that immediately sets the transaction; a little world weary, a little unrushed.

"Being thin"

Photos of people on the social register say that this is a lie.

Is OP still with us?

So, do the UC call it sauce or gravy?

Call what sauce or gravy, R572?

The upper classes find Lizzo charming.

Spaghetti sauce, R573. On The Sopranos, they called it gravy.

R575, that should be your answer right there.

But, actually, it's not about class at all. It's an ethnic and regional expression. Italian-Americans in the Northeast sometimes - it's not universal - call red sauce for pasta "gravy" or "Sunday gravy".

r573 is new here.

[quote] Older Italian-Americans in the Northeast sometimes - it's not universal - call red sauce for pasta "gravy" or "Sunday gravy".

Fixed

Lower-class Italian-Americans use gravy. It's sauce for everyone else.

The graxy/gravy split is a class marker.

Italian-Americans who don't speak Italian call it gravy. Fucking hate it. And those awful mispronunciations: ri-gawt and calamar.

I'm not sure I agree with the 'thin' requirement'. Obesity is almost always a sign of a poor background, no doubt about it, but "overweight" can be found in decent numbers in the upper class.

I grew up in Connecticut and the Italian-Americans were just like everybody else. When I moved to NYC the NY Italians were like a different species.

[R417} is correct

* grammar: stop using I instead of me because you think it makes you sound smart and classy

* restraint:means offering your enemy a drink instead of throwing it in their face, acting like they are nothing is a better tactic

* consideration: a classy person will offer a seat to the elderly, infirmed or pregnant, patiently wait their turn without sighing loudly

* subtlety: includes hair, clothing, jewelry and perfume...stop showboating

* comprehension on a variety of subjects: lifelong learners are usually open minded and pleasant to be around and show interest in subjects beyond themselves or the Kardashians

* quality over quantity: buy once and keep it in shape

I think also making a person feel at ease and comfortable no matter their position in life

an example of a class act was David Niven. Biographer Graham Lord wrote, "the biggest wreath, worthy of a Mafia Godfather's funeral, was delivered from the porters at London's Heathrow Airport, along with a card that read: 'To the finest gentleman who ever walked through these halls. He made a porter feel like a king.'"

In certain situations I ask myself WWDKD? What would Deborah Kerr do?

Example: when given a compliment on her caftan she would politely say than you instead of blurting out the designers name "It's Roberto Cavali!!!"

And on a site like Datalounge R584, it is indeed very important to know the proper way to respond when receiving a compliment on one's caftan.

I suspect earrings are handled in a similar manner.

[quote]it is indeed very important to know the proper way to respond when receiving a compliment on one's caftan.

"Oh, this old thing? It was mother's."

Lower class people have an obsession with being right, and arguing it into the ground. Upper class people can let others have their own opinion.

Restraint is a fantastic one to point out. Absolutely. That includes refraining from blabbing about stuff you have, vacations you took.

Another one is young people who are very comfortable talking to older people, with respect and familiarity. Not deferential, maybe even a little smarmily jocose. I used to work in a library with many volunteers (~18-25) and when they mixed with the donor, some had a knack for wielding a friendliness that turned into donations and attendance at the events.

Clearly I can ibky vaguely describe these qualities because I don't possess them but rather admire from afar.

Thank you YourMillenialFriend, for showing us all that you can never truly buy class, despite good upbringing and decent earnings. Your contribution in this thread has been invaluable, my honey bunny.

R588, interesting point. The only way to acquire that ability is to be socialized around older people when you're young. Is that a class marker as well?

Watch this scene in the movie Class where Skip and Jonathan have tea with the neighbouring girls school to organise an event. Jonathan is a clumsy, maladroit cascade of disaster while Skip is perfectly self-controlled, polite and coherent.

Pretty much everything about that, R591 (including its title), is the opposite of "class."

This has been an interesting thread. Should we do a part 2?

Sigh.

Let's see it jump the shark! All in favour say Aye!

r593 I never thought it would garner such a response

Link to Part 2?

Hmmm, yes, I agree about the restraint, knowing how to talk to adults (those manners are drilled big-time) and also the thing about the fatigue--it's something I've noticed particularly from those with inherited wealth--it stands out in young people--that sense they've seen at all and don't really expect you to be of interest, but they'll wait patiently to see if they might be wrong. Most young people have more enthusiasm and curiosity. I really noticed it on the east coast

Part 2 linked. Please continue the discussion.

Pigeons in the grass, my ass.

Class!

Alas.