Game of thrones - Spoilers Part III

Part II

Fascinating behind the scenes mini-doc by HBO on Season 8 Episode 3.

I want Aria to kill Cersei, take her face and kill Jaime when he comes close...

Cersei's death had better be awesome whoever does it.

So far there have been some absolutely crazy theories about Jon killing Dany and then him bringing her back to life when he finds out Tyrion betrayed them. Tyrion is then executed at a trial.

If any of this is remotely true then they have completely fucked this ending. It was always going to be difficult to end this but they’ve already destroyed Dany as a character and now it looks like Tyrion could follow suit (although he’s been increasingly terrible since season 4.)

It’s a pity because, minus a lot of season 5, there have been 7 seasons of fantastic television.

I like the Jon killing Dany, finding out Tyrion betrayed them, then bringing Dany back with the Kiss of Life (and dying in the process) ending much better than the Jon killing Dany permanently and then giving up his throne to go join the Night Watch again, and freaking BRAN is made King ending. Bran as King would suck big time, and make no sense: A medievalish country like Westeros isn't going to elect a King whom everyone knows cannot produce heirs.

The leak that Tyrion is getting executed by Starks comes from a very legit source. So I expect that to happen. Why? I still have no idea. But I think this season the way Tyrion is depicted, his interactions with Bran and particularly his speech at Missandei's execution makes me believe that this might very well be true.

It would make his conversation with Sansa in the crypts ironic, but somehow fitting: She wouldn't marry him again because she fears his divided loyalties, but really his only loyalty is to his family, not Dany. Why bother to have that conversation otherwise? I think it's foreshadowing.

I think it’s perfect that the Starks would be the one to finish off the last Lannister. Just saying.

Dinklage has made his money.

Actors are forgiven for bad acting not bad writing.

Dumb and Dumber own season 8 and their decision to put CGI ahead of plot and character development.

Jumped the dragon.

No longer care.

The only thing that seems off about Tyrion is the author seeing himself as that character and his singing off on that given he supposedly approved of the actions taken this season by the writers. I'd think for all of his stupidity as of late should be setting us up for something REALLY clever.

^signing

I read an article from someone from the show, I think maybe a tech person, about doing scenes for Ghost this season and how he was going to do some really cool things. Um, like what? Stand in the background, rush into battle not to be seen the rest of the fight, and then get basically blown off by his owner with whom he had such a strong bond? Where are the cool scenes.

There will be no more dragons. The showrunners have proven they will dispense with important plot points (Lady Stoneheart, the direwolves) to wrap this thing up super quickly. There are plot holes galore in Episode 4. The show devolving to two mad queens is about as bad as it gets. Jon having to kill Dany--why not Arya or Sansa if they think Dany is so untrustworthy? Why isn't Bran weighing in on any of this? Why not do a fly around Dragonstone from a safe distance since you know Euron's fleet is out there? Dumb, dumb, dumb. I'm disappointed and that sucks.

The leaks for the end of the show about Jon killing Dany only to resurrect her and maybe die in the process make no sense either. With two episodes left of course I'm going to stick it out, but I'm not excited about it anymore.

They only think Day's "mad " because she has a dragon. Had three of them. But Cersei blowing up the Sept was absolutely the worst crazy-assed thing. No one ever talks about how crazy and power mad Cersei is. Dany's reactions have all been very rational and if a man had been in her place at the battle of the Loot train, and had asked the Tarleys to bend the knee, and they refused in the way they refused Dany they'd have been beheaded on the spot. Tarley was insolent, insulting and arrogant, aggressively so, and his son was completely stupid. I believe Randyll Tarley could have forcefully ordered his son to behave, and shut up but in his arrogance he seemed to have a reluctant pride that his son was standing up with him. Bran needs to tell Samwell that part. THey were at war.

Are there any theories as to what Varys is doing? From the one episode he's really spoken in sounds like he's changed sides for the 'realm'.

Varys has always claimed he's on the common people's side. But if that's the case, why didn't he plot to take out Cersei? Cersei really is the worst of them all. And the common people of King's Landing trusting Cersei? Never. She's a reviled character. The common people delighted in humiliating her in her walk of shame the High Sparrow made her do through King's Landing. Now they're rushing to the Red Keep at her behest? They'd run the other way before they'd trust Cersei. Plot holes galore.

I Want Grey worm to kill The Mountain. I know Cersei will be killed by either Jaime, Tyrion or Arya, but please let Grey Worm kill The Mountain...and live to tell it.

I'm betting Cersei kills Euron. She knows he is going to kill her so she pre empts him.

Man people are going to be pissed if(when) the “Jaime is actually going back to save Cersei, not kill her” spoiler finally is revealed. Everyone thinks he’s going to KL to kill her, but from the spoilers he isn’t and they die in each other’s arms.

Absolute shit.

At this point I hope Bronn winds up shooting Cersei, when she sees Tyrion it's a given that her hit on him didn't happen, which to her would be treachery, atleast. Or a misfire trying to shoot Jaime? Doubt it bc of the real behind the scenes issues with the actual actors, but I can hope, for a few weeks...

A lot of people are holding on to that R19. In quite a pile that might be the shittest part. Between Jaime and the Stark girls being bitches this has turned into something I hardly care to watch. I don't even like Danny that much but I yelled at the TV for her to burn everything last night

I loved e3 and thought people were being ridiculous in the critism...then last night happened...

R20 Its surprising how much this season has messed up IMO, The writers totally screwed up the priority of threats, an enemy that has taken all of 'recorded history ' to vanquish was wrapped up a bow within three battles that we've seen, but Cersei's the harder of the two foes? The 3rd episode was the strongest but was aired as a muddled mess. Its like the writers are suffering from Senioritis. In this episode I don't understand why they didn't have both dragons on full blast as soon as they saw the ships and then she had the opportunity to roast their backsides and NOTHING! Huge waste of money on the one episode that had potential to be amazing but was abysmally lit.

So many wasted opportunities.

So only one dragon left and can not reproduce ?

I assume that the producers are deliberately dropping plot coherence for shock again.

r22, dragons are able to change sexes. Eggs may be in the future.

Dany may be the mother of the mother of dragons.

R6 how do you know Jon dies? He may be sent away after he brings back Dany.

Could the Starbucks have been the new summer “Pink Dragon”?

Why would Jon go back to the Wall? There’s a huge chunk missing and there are no White Walkers left to keep out. It’s idiotic, which means that D&D will most likely go with it.

And I’m so over the “Mad Queen” narrative. It’s ok for Cersei to have a zombie continuously rape the Septa, Jaime can cripple a child by pushing him out of the window, Ramsay cut off Theon’s dick, Theon burned 2 children and pretended that they were Bran and Rickon, Jon executed a young boy (Olly), Arya baked some Freys into a pie.... You get the point. And Dany is the ONLY character who’s MAD, and we have to be constantly reminded that we have to question her state of mind....

What a crock of shit.

[quote]I assume that the producers are deliberately dropping plot coherence for shock again.

And characterization. Let’s not forget that.

R17 Hound is definitely going to kill Mountain. He alluded to it twice last night- he told Sansa only one thing would make him happy and he told Arya he has unfinished business in KL. Both being to kill his brother.

I'll tell exactly what the problem is. I watched #4 again and it was very insightful. Tyrion is heart sick about attacking King's landing and fighting Cersei. He is very conflicted. All the clues are there. And both he and Varys need to have their asses kicked. They live in a dream world. How the fuck did they expect anyone to take King's Landing away from Cersei with hardly any casualties or losses? Cersei? Who blew up the Sept with wildfire? Please.

These two "timid" souls sit there and agonize about Dany and her wilfulness and how strong and determined she is, and they're scared because she is ready to fight. She wants to kick some ass. If she had kicked Cersei's ass in the first place after their meeting at the dragon pit when Cersei walked out, this would all be over now. It is very obvious from the way Dany executed the Tarleys that she can make targeted strikes with limited casualties.

They think holding her back is the right thing to do. But they have done none of the leg work and intel gathering to realize that with all the wildfire seeded throughout King's Landing, Cersei will do her worst and give Dany all the blame. Now Tyrion and Davos know the back doors and by ways of how to get in and out of KL. and you'd think they have at least had someone gather information about the fortifications, the number of ships, etc. But all they do is sit around watching Tyrion get drunk, then he and Varys have hand wringing sessions about Dany, and her willingness to fight, and bloodshed in war. Fuck them.

R27 The Mad Queen narrative is part of Tyrion's plot with Cersei to take down Dany. B and W have created a crazy and convoluted plot to show that Dany is actually not mad! It all sounds crazy. Tyrion is conspiring with Cersei against Dany!

R31, and Varys is questioning Dany’s state of mind. Varys! The dude who keeps a sorcerer in a wooden box in his room. That Varys!

So basically this will end with everyone dead or miserable?

That’s the basic premise of the show, R33.

Ramsay was right.

I wouldn't be unhappy if Dany didn't go mad, but I would be pissed if Tyrion is really in cahoots with Cersei. How the fuck does that make sense? Why would Tyrion do that? It can't be for family loyalty or whatever.

[quote]They only think Day's "mad " because she has a dragon. Had three of them. But Cersei blowing up the Sept was absolutely the worst crazy-assed thing. No one ever talks about how crazy and power mad Cersei is. Dany's reactions have all been very rational and if a man had been in her place at the battle of the Loot train, and had asked the Tarleys to bend the knee, and they refused in the way they refused Dany they'd have been beheaded on the spot.

There's a big difference between Dany who not only thinks she is good, just and fair and ...

Cersei who doesn't give a damn about anyone including her family. In the end she doesn't care about Jamie, Tyrion and she certainly never cared about Bran.

Blowing up your own people is something Cersei would do. The old Dany would never attack a city full of innocent people who are under Cersei's rule but she's clearly about to.

People think Dany is "mad" because she's not acting like a hero. I think a lot of it is bad writing and it's incredibly abrupt but it's obvious this was planned from the very start. They're just doing it terribly.

She's being selfish by not caring about Jon's ties to his family, she's being dumb by rushing into combat before she was fully prepared to and by not listening to her advisers or even Sansa who she and Jon don't give enough credit to. In a way it's almost cartoonish! It's as if she could twirl her mustache at any moment and look in the camera with a wink.

The Dany we started out with would not be making these mistakes or would at least have the patience to accept advice.

On the other hand people think Jon is an idiot because he's too nice.

Well Sam and Gilly get to ride off together and happily procreate. Tormund got a pet direwolf. So that’s a few people that get to be happy.

But Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Jaime and Brienne all seemingly get miserable endings.

Exactly, R36. Family loyalty? From a guy who killed his father on the shitter? I think not. Loyalty to Jaime maybe, but not Cersei, who treated him miserably his whole life? Just no.

I may be in denial but I think if Tyrion is betraying Dany it's for Sansa/Jon. Dany has been depicted as a single minded tyrannical haughty bitch and we have one of those on the show, if the STUPID writers insist on putting all of the mindless nothings into KLs RK they deserve to be torched. I just want the dragon to get in one more good hit before being carelessly lost just to wrap up the series.

Tyrion cut some kind of stupid deal with his sister, and it's going to come out, that's what I think. He did it during their first meeting. There's a reason why she keeps restraining herself from killing him. Almost makes me wonder if Bronn was sent on his mission under false pretext. Maybe it was Qyburn or Euron who sent him. Euron probably wants her brothers dead.

{r21} That's the way GRM wants it. He said it in an interview that he is more interested in the ending being about the Game of thrones involving people then the supernatural.

Poor Ghost

Cast being all sexy at the premiere.

Except for Nikolaj and Maisie being goofy fuckers, and Kit and Rose beaming like it’s a standard red carpet.

I thought what Dany is going through is a little bit like what Sansa went through, when Jon was made King of the North. Littlefinger put it in Sansa's head that the oldest living legitimate child would be chosen by the North to lead the North. Instead, the North didn't even consider her. They went for the male war hero over the girl who actually saved their bacon by bringing in resources. Varys was right that the country would go for the male war hero.

Tyrion acts like someone who knows the game is over, even though the last quarter hasn't played out.

What are the chances it was Sansa who leaked the information about Dany's route to Cersei? The North can defend itself against Cersei, but it can't defend itself against dragons. So she helps Cersei take out Dany, knowing that Cersei won't march her troops North in the winter, so the North will have the rest of the season to rest up and prepare for war with the South. And Cersei doesn't know that Sansa has an assassin in the family, with her own bag of faces.

So Sansa's advice to Dany about resting the troops was a feint, to make it look like she was encouraging Dany to stay in the North, when in reality she wanted Dany to walk into the trap. Maybe Sansa meant for Jaime to be the scapegoat, which was why she was so obnoxious in telling him that Cersei was about to die - knowing that he would ride South to protect Cersei and consequently look guilty as hell. And Tyrion is possibly scapegoat number two, which is why Sansa immediately told him the truth about Jon's parentage - giving him a motive to turn against Dany. Sansa can't allow the North to ever know she colluded with Cersei, so she needs plausible deniability.

R46 that’s my theory too: that Sansa concocted it all. We’ll see.

Watching it again, I focused on Tyrion's good-bye chat with Sansa. Tyrion said she'dd be the power in the North because Jon would be spending more time with Dany, so they had to try to get along. She said that would be up to Jon, and that Jon didn't belong in the south, that Starks didn't do well in the South, and Tyrion remarked, "But Jon said he's not a Stark..." meaning he's Jon Snow.... that's what provoked Sansa to tell The Secret.

It was obvious at the banquet celebration that Sansa was hostile to Dany and without and real reason. I remember the awful look she gave Dany when Dany elevated Gendry. OK. Maybe Dany was premature, since she hasn't captured any throne yet, but she didn't deserve the look of true loathing she got from Sansa. Then at the end after their final pre battle meeting, as everyone gets ready to leave, Sansa, Arya and Bran gang up on Jon, pull him outside to the weirwood tree so they can tell him how much they don't like "his queen."

I thought they were harsh. That was not the way to send your "brother" off to battle. He felt hurt and angry about that.I think their rejection of Dany, without any reason, was what made him speak up about his parents. I believe that was his good bye to The North and to Winterfell. But clearly something was decided that we aren't yet aware of. Sansa confiding in Tyrion about Jon being a Targ, sets everything in motion, and Sansa knows it. I believe Arya is definitely going down to KL to take care of unfinished business, which means Cersei, but I also think she is going to be doing whatever she & Sansa decided to get Jon on the Throne.

If Sansa and Arya harm Dany, Jon will never forgive them. And if/when Dany dies he will be distraught. He will grieve. So their support for Jon and their opposition to Dany has to happen organically, as the right thing to do, once Dany is no longer a viable option to be queen. This ends with Jon on the Throne, but I do not believe he kills Dany. Something else happens. Euron or Cersei may kill her. Who knows? So my analysis is that Sansa sets things in motion for Jon to gain the Throne, and Dany is defeated either through betrayal, or battle defeat.

What ever else happens Dany Euron and Cersei will fight to the death.

So it looks like there is still no definitive spoiler of how it all end? Nothing yet on who will be on the throne? nothing certain yet on whether Jon, Dany and Tyrion will be dead or alive by the closing credits?

Sansa remains upset with Jon for "bending the knee" to Dany. The more she sees of Dany the more convinced she is the North has to stay independent. She would rather support Jon as king in the North, than Dany as queen of anything, and yet she knows Cersei is evil and must be defeated. So supporting Jon for all of it is the obvious solution. Now that they know Jon is half Targaryen, it is even more obvious to them he should st on the throne of Westeros.

Brienne reminds me of Buffalo Bill in r44 video

[quote]What are the chances it was Sansa who leaked the information about Dany's route to Cersei?

She was sailing south to Dragonstone, so...

If this shit is true, I'm so bummed.....

#gotleaks

It really made zero sense that Dany didn't immediately start lighting up ships based on rage alone at the sight of the dragon being killed

R55, someone posted it earlier that Bran would become ruler.

Even before all of this, the creators said the ending would be bittersweet. It was a fun ride for a long time and had the creators continued to be passionate about it, I don't doubt it could've gone on longer, but it's just ending on a rather weak note.

It's like having a long time crush on someone and you finally get them and the sex is just meh.

It would make zero sense to have Bran end up as king. He can't father sons and so you'd have another civil war in 30 years or so. What kind of resolution is that?

Dany can't have child either but that doesn't bother anyone r58.

I believe that GRRM conceived of much if the magic and the heroes journey in association with his original Arya/Jon outline. IE Jon was a dragon all along being raised like a war hostage in the north eventually packed off to learn about the mystical winter magic from people who stripped him of all his identity (you know nothing, betraying his oaths, etc.) Arya's journey ran parallel as a young winter wolf packed off to the south and raised by foreign 'southern' teachers and stripped of her wolf identity before recognzing that she is the cold/dark/winter assassin who must kill winter's death. So Arya killed the Night King. Now Jon must slay the Queen of Fire to complete his parallel mystical journey.

It will probably work better in the books if the books ever happen.

Tyrion is part Targaryean. Varys has been aiding him all along and knows this.

How many people know about Dany's barren state? Everyone would know about Bran's just by looking at him.

Besides, isn't there a prophecy in the books about Dany being able to bear a child at some future point?

It's not going to be Bran. Period. And Bronn is not sitting on any Council to rule Westeros. Bronn will die in episode 5.

What would be bittersweet about Bran getting the throne? It would be ridiculous.

If Tyrion survives, Bronn would be Lord of the Reach, as he was promised. So it seems that he could be part of the council. The first part of those spoilers was correct.

I'm going to enjoy watching Dany execute Varys. Useless, dickless fucker.

Oh, and it would make sense if Dany were to execute Varys in the next episode. He was talking treason in the last one. He got his big send-off scene with Tyrion, so now like Jorah and Theon, he gets to die.

Re: the Starbucks cup - I totally think that was deliberate, no matter what they say. HBO has been letting anything and everything do GOT tie-ins for the final season - there are even fucking GOT-themed Oreos, FFS. And all anybody on SM and Reddit talked about this morning was the goddamn cup. It was pure product placement.

Yes, but it wasn't Starbucks, Blanche! it was craft services....

The Oreos were delicious. The ones with the wolf's heads tasted a little gamey, and you could see the pink tinge of blood on the white creme filling, but WTF.

It makes zero sense for Arya or Jaime to ride off to kill Cersei without first telling Dany and her counselors what they are going to do. Obviously, if either one can get into KL and kill Cersei and her creepy consort there is not need for further war. Everyone could rest at Winterfell until they get word that Cersei is dead. But apparently neither one thought to tell anyone about their (supposed) plans, so the city could easily be charred ruins, and Cersei could be dead, by time they get there.

I think this means that Jaime is going to KL to die with Cersei, that is the only thing that makes sense as far as he is concerned. As for what Arya is doing, I don't know. She'll find someone to kill, but who will that be?

If Tyrion and Sansa don't sit one the throne (and they won't) I want Daenerys to. Fuck Jon Snow.

Tyrion is dead meat. Sansa will rule the North. Dany will rule of Jon Snow brings her back!

HBO already edited out the coffee cup gaffe.

Since the showrunners mapped out the rest of the show with George RR Martin to know the major plot points and where the major characters were going to end up, it's pretty obvious Martin was going to wrap up the Others (White Walkers on the show as there is no Night King in the books) storyline before ending with the main characters battling for the throne. Since this is a TV adaptation, I would have switched up Martin's timeline and had the fight for the throne wrapped up first, Marin's idea be damned.

In the fight for the throne, you could still have Euron taking down Rhaegal. Let Dany go mad queen even, if that is the shitty plot that was chosen by Martin. But the North/Starks/Tyrion/Varys know, or at least think they still need Dany and Drogon, the last remaining dragon, so they keep her on board to fight for the living. That makes the stakes even higher with the Night King with one dragon and Dany with the other. In the throne fight, Jamie gets close to Cersei and finally kills her, thus fulfilling the younger brother prophecy from the books, even if Martin didn't intend that.

Tweak a few things. The Night King and Dany go head-to-head in the sky, but Drogon ultimately defeats Viserion and knocks the Night King to the ground like in the show. Then the dracarys scene and finding out that dragon fire doesn't kill the Night King. Then the rest unfolds as it did in the last episode with Arya taking down the Night King by sneak attack. Jon takes out Dany on the battlefield because she's mad queen, and no one notices amidst the chaos. Jamie and Brienne had boned after the throne fight, but Jaime doesn't survive the Battle of Winterfell. Drogon goes crazy with grief at the loss of his "mother" and flies back to Old Valyria, the last dragon. Flush the Tyrion-as-traitor plot line because it really makes no sense. The Seven Kingdoms go back to being independent, but a council is set up to avoid conflicts, with Jon as the head of it.

Have an epilogue. Not sure what Arya would be doing. Sansa rules the North with Jon. Bran hangs out at the weirwood tree, or maybe helps the council by looking at the past. Show Drogon in Old Valyria guarding dragon eggs.

The Night King should have been the last storyline as life itself is on the line. The way the show is now, the stakes seem lower as it is just petty squabbling for the throne.

Does anyone remember in Essos that Asian witch/light magic whatever kept staring at Tyrion? It reminds me of how Bran started at Tyrion.

I think Tyrion wins the throne, and I think Bran has already told him he will in that scene where Tyrion sat down to talk with him and they cut away.

*stared at Tyrion. Sorry.

If my Tyrion and my Jaime are dead, I want Dany alive, alone and icy on the throne, like Olivia de Havilland in The Heiress, and Jon dead having made some dopey Robb style gaff.

[quote]So it looks like there is still no definitive spoiler of how it all end? Nothing yet on who will be on the throne? nothing certain yet on whether Jon, Dany and Tyrion will be dead or alive by the closing credits?

The link at r55 is considered legit. Another reddit poster had leaks up almost a year ago. I’ll post them.

I got a heavy foreshadowing feeling when Ghost went North. I think Jon will join him.

Alright here goes. And remember these were posted almost a year ago:

The Mountain (?) kills Missandae. He beheads her. I am VERY fucking certain of this but I can't say why. If I'm certain of anything, though, it's this. (proven correct)

Jon Snow finally sees Arya after they get to the throne? Idk exactly where but after Cersei and Jaime die he 'finally sees her'

They have these shards that they're using to kill everything that's undead. (proven correct)

the undead dragon is trying to kill people and when it breathes fire the flames are coming out of its neck because its been hurt. he thinks Jon Snow kills that dragon.(proven correct)

When Daenerys is making her speech everyone is mad at her. Tyrion makes some comment (he doesn't get sound) and throws his pin (?) on the ground and she sends him to the prison? Idk what was going on here.

Danaerys actually DOES die, she's killed (stabbed I think) by Jon Snow. She goes back to the throne room and touches the throne. Has no idea WHY he kills her, there's a missing chunk. but it happens in the throne room. I asked him why and he said he doesn't know and I don't even think they saw the actual death scene, just the fact that she's dead. so he's only assuming she gets murdered, otherwise she commits suicide but that doesn't make much sense. Then the dragon flies away with her body but doesn't kill Snow. Either way, she dies.

Same person, earlier spoilers:

only one dragon is left (proven correct)

something to do with a scorpion needle one of the dragons and the lannisters? idk if I heard him correctly.(proven correct)

last three episodes are in front of king's landing

the undead things are dealt with in the first three episodes (proven correct)

misandai (?) maybe dies? he doesn't know (correct)

cersei makes a meat shield of all the innocent people to stop them from coming in

the dragon blasts through all the people/doesn't care

"arya is useless"

there's a scene where a horse gets ripped in half by the dragon

cersei is watching the dragon coming in, and the witch doctor [Qyburn] is like 'we should leave'

there's a sort of 'flashback' where she thinks about how she blew up something in her city (I don't know what the fuck he was talking about here, but I recorded it anyway) and the dragon blowing things up reminds her of that?

the hound and his brother fight and they end up both dying in fire by falling in "he finally takes the helmet off the ugly guy"

cersei goes into the chambers where you first see the "catapult things"

jaime shows up and they're all omg and they hold each other and everything crumbles

the dragon enters the throne room and fucks shit up

the iron throne gets melted by the dragon

So when Jaime returns it’s not to kill Cersei but to be with her.

[quote]When Jaime shows up to try to get Cersei out of the city, she has this speech about just wanting the baby to survive. Jaime tells her that the baby never mattered, that only she mattered, that only they mattered. That's when they die together.

I’m not sure they could’ve done a worse job. But I guess Jaime is meant to be some tragic addict who just can’t quit his sister.

Brienne sure was a dud in the sack, wasn't she

Jaime just wants the last word.

If Jaime helps Cersei and then Tyrion help Jaime it will be treason without actually helping or supporting Cersei. I can see this leading to a trial

Betrayal, yes, R83, but not “treason.” Dany isn’t the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms yet; she’s not even the “rightful heir” anymore.

^^^^ in her mind, she is queen, so helping her enemies would be treason, at least to her.

Of course, to HER it would seem like treason, R85, but that is just more support for the idea that she is delusional.

You don't have even a fundamental understanding of the show or its characters, R86.

I've read so many conflicting spoilers about the end, haha. Tyrion is executed/Tyrion is on the ruling counsel. Hound dies with his brother/he retires to the country and builds a house. Bran goes north of the wall/he sits on the Iron Throne. I don't know what to believe.

The only one I believe for sure is that Jaime will die with Cersei. Either a murder suicide or he truly can't give her up, goes to save her, and they die together.

Bronn said he's still got a few more kills left in him. I wonder who they will be. Maybe Qyburn.

I don't think Jaime would have gone back to Cersei if she had not been pregnant with his kid. I also think he believes he can stop her from doing something terrible...like burning down the city. He has to know she is sleeping with Euron, and Euron is a huge part of here plans. Maybe he plans on killing Euron.

And he also was not a one night stand with Brienne. She had to have been at Winterfell alone with Brienne for at least a week, but more likely two weeks. Winterfell is quite a distance from White Harbor, maybe three or four days, where Tyrion, Varys, Grey Worm, & Missandei boarded ships. Dany was escorting them on her dragon (s). Jaime didn't leave Winterfell after Brienne and Sansa learned that Dany had been attacked as she arrived at Dragonstone. It takes at least a week maybe two to sail from White Harbor to Dragonstone.

Daenerys needs Daario. He needs to haul his fine ass, and his soldiers to Westeros to help her and give her moral support. He knew Jorah. He knew Missandei. He will appreciate what has happened and how much she feels the loss. You'd think D&D (Dumb and Dumber) would show her some compassion instead of deciding to side with Varys and Tyrion and Sansa and write her as a monster.

I was hoping the hound would live...he's had a shit life. He deserves a bit of happiness.

I agree R92. I have a question. Tyrion and Varys know all about the sewers and the stealth ways to get in and out of King's landing. Why not send a small squadron of unsullied in there to disable the scorpions. Tyrion should also know how to find out where the Wildfire is planted. Seal it off, make it inaccessible.

Jaime’s not gone back to Cersei FFS! He was happily letting Brienne ride his dick for several weeks while he believed Dany and Jon were going to win the war. The whole time it took Dany etc to travel back to Dragonstone. They’re so bad at showing the passage of time on the show now.

It was Bronn turning up and finding out that they’re fucking, then later him hearing the news that Cersei was actually winning the war that sealed the deal for him to leave. Bronn would absolutely kill Brienne to get to Jaime if he’s not toeing the line. Also, if Cersei would do that to Missandei, what do you think she’d do to the woman who’s fucking her brother? My guess is something similar to what she did to the Septa she gave to The Mountain. Jaime knew that. The only way to keep Brienne safe was to dump her and run back to the capital to deal with his sister on what he believes is a suicide mission. Her oath to Sansa would stop her from following him.

I suspect we’re also circling back to when he killed the Mad King. In fact, I think Jaime is going to be instrumental in saving the population of King’s Landing once again. His arc SHOULD be the best one on the show if D&D deliver. There’s an interview somewhere where Nikolaj said that he and Lena always assumed their characters would die together, which seems to imply the opposite happens.

Either way, I think it’s building up to Dany fucking off East again; Jon disappearing into some sort of self-imposed exile in the True North; Cersei dead (I think she and Qyburn know she’s dying, not pregnant); Sansa ruling an independent North; Arya going West of Westeros; Bran hooking up to the weirwood tree like his predecessor; a reluctant Jaime becoming King; a pregnant Brienne becoming the ‘younger, more beautiful Queen’ from Cersei’s prophecy; and a heroic Tyrion and Varys sacrificing themselves to make that happen. There’s been too much talk of a couple ruling jointly for that not to bear fruit. Realistically, that leaves Jaime and Brienne, or Sam and Gilly. I know which pair I’d rather put money on.

Oh and the Friki guys leaks are mostly bullshit. He’s admitted that himself now. He used to get the accurate stuff close to the time from Spanish dubbers, but HBO shut him down. All the rest, MOSTLY fans throwing stuff and seeing what sticks.

I could actually live with that ending, R94. But think Dany would have to die outright. She's given up too much to let anything but death keep her from the throne of Westeros.

Not bad r94, but I agree- Dany dying is the only way she won't get the throne. So Jon kills her, then fucks off North.

Jaime and a pregnant Brienne ruling, but Dany dying, Jon gone away, Tyrion dead would be the bittersweet ending we were told is coming. I can accept that.

R93, YES! I was saying that to my partner during the show last week. Why not do some stealth mission to launch a surprise attach and take down those scorpions. Then all Dany has to do is fly to the Red Keep, make Cersei bend the knee while Drogon is looming behind Dany, then while Cersei is bending the knee, say dracarys and have Drogon flambe that bitch! Instead, if the spoilers are true, ugh, what a shit ending.

^surprise attack

Can't wait for Dany to die.

Brienne younger and more beautiful? 🤮

Inner beauty, for sure.

Brienne and Jaime happened only to please the fans.

It was gross.

R102, I agree. Thank you for saying it. Their "relationship" was mere fan service.

Arya got a better sex scene than they did. It was lame. Should've just left it out.

Tormund is hotter than Jaime - in my opinion. In fact, between the two, I would think Tormund would be a better fuck than Jaime. And yes, I know that they are characters...not real.

Oh, please, R105. I know. There's no accounting for some folks' taste, but honestly, Nicolaj Coster Waldau is FINE. He is a brilliant actor and he has wandered around Game of Thrones throwing off the Sex vibes for years. I find him hotter than Kit HArington, and I think Kit HArington is really hot. But Tormund? All I get when I look at Tormund is some guy who stinks, who probably has lice, who belches and farts with abandon, and who has living varmints in his beard dining off the leftovers from his dinner. No. IMO Tormund is gross. He would need major renovations.

R106 = Brienne of Tarth

R106 - I'm not talking about the actors. Yes, NCW is hot. I'm talking about the characters. I don't find Jaime Lannister hot. The character seems like a vapid, lame fuck. Tormund would be wild and nasty.

As I think about it, Jon needs to stop being selfish. He cares about the Wildings and Tormund. He cares about the North. And if he wants to see all those people fairly treated, e tc. he needs to be king. He can't just walk away from people he cares about. I hope it's not true that Jon kills Dany. It's a lame rumor. If this is something based on what someone saw while shooting than I hope it's true they shot multiple endings. It would take something either accidental that he felt responsible for, or something extreme and unimaginable. I just cannot conceive of anything that would make him do it. Either she dies in battle, or he dies, or they rule together. All this talk about him running away to the North is bullshit.

Yeah. R108, Wild & Nasty. No argument there. If you can just get past the stink and the crabs and the lice, and his horrific bad breath and loose yellow teeth.....

There's a very high possibility Tormund has dingleberries.....

I'm just going to put it out there - Tormund probably has a bigger dick than Jaime Lannister. I find that appealing.

Think of the time period, R106...everyone was nasty. You either fuck a nasty man with a small cock or a nasty man with a big one. I don't see the debate here.

R112 we don't KNOW that. We can assume dick sizes but we don't KNOW. Jaime might have a very nice dick. It could be the length and thickness that suits me. At least I like to think so, and he strikes me as someone who is no stranger to a bath. Tormund, OTOH, I just could not get past those hygiene issues I've already mentioned.

Y’all, it gets worse

[quote]Varys dies next episode (Dany burns him alive), Dany and Unsullied fuck up kings landing and they begin to surrender but the surrender bells that sound off in a tower literally "break" Dany mentally and she goes pure mad targaryan. It sounds like it is setting up Jon and Grey Worm confrontation. Grey Worm also lets his anger get the better of him as Lannister troops surrender he says fuck it and throws a spear at a soldier which starts a crazy riot where Dany's army starts raping and pillaging everyone. Jon is like wtf apparantly but gets caught up in the battle to really do anything (lannisters start attacking again).

[quote]Unsullied are just indiscriminately killing (women and children) and Dothraki go on a rape rampage. Source didnt get specific but I dont see Unsullied doing any penetrating except with an actual spear. Cleganebowl happens this episode (5) and they do both die. Grey Worm and Jon have a big stare down and Grey Worm thinks Jon is gonna start killing Unsullied so hes like waiting for Jon to turn on Dany so he can kill him but a Lannister soldier distracts Jon instead. Source says they are heavily saying Dany is going mad so I would put some weight to the leaks saying Jon kills Dany. I mentioned that to the source and they just said "Oh yeah definitely leading up to that" so take that for what it is.

Fuck, R114 and R115 are worse. Geez.

This show went to complete shit. We waited almost 2 years for this crap.

We waited for two years of CGI at the expense of plot and character development.

They've been setting up Sansa vs. Dany all season and there's no pay-off? How disappointing.

The person that posted this has a proven track record over multiple seasons.

So sad what GRRM has decided to do to Dany. People praise his writing to the heavens, but it’s clear he’s just another neckbeard using women as a plot device. I hope to God this leaks are wrong.

Honestly, all I care about is the death of the incestuous twins and how they die.

I’ll post it if the guy touches on it r122. He’s been asked.

Arya will kill Cersei. She has been training for this since Season one and I think she will do it with Jamie's face.

Tyrion, Dany and Jon will all die.

Sansa will turn out to be more conniving than them all and take the Iron Throne.

Bran will become the new Night King. Or he will die from exposure because they don't have wheel chair access in the 7 Kingdoms.

R114, are these Reddit spoilers? Is there a link to where these are being posted?

Yes, they’re on the freefolk subreddit.

Here’s a link

I hope Jaime and Jon, and Gray Worm, and Tyrion make it out alive. Also The Hound and please do not kill Arya. I thought there was some leaked scene with Tyrion on trial and Sansa Brienne Gray Worm were all there. I don't want Varys to die either. I'm over people getting killed. I want the 5th season to be clean.Cersei,Euron, The Mountain and Qyburn. That's it. No crazy Dany.

Not sure if he’s kidding or not, but the leaker thinks his contact might have mixed up Dany for Cersei because Cersei would have a reason to be triggered by bells thanks to her shame walk.

I'd fuck Tormund despite his inevitable BO. I'd choose him over the handsome and clean Jaime. Tormund seems like he'd be fun.

RIP the Hound. I was hoping he'd make it out of this mess alive.

Those leaks are something else. Dany and Cersei both going crazy, the Unsullied murdering everyone, and the Dothraki raping. Yeesh. This episode is not going to be well received!

r69 Arya is going there to protect Jon

r74 TYRION IS ACTUALLY THE HEIR - he is Targaryean - but technically a bastard I guess

I seriously doubt with two episodes left, that the writers are going to introduce a new Targaryen. So, no. Tyrion is a Lannister. ...unless this is Days of Our Lives. It seems more like Cersei will go crazy...as she has in the past....not Dany. As distraught as Dany was about Missandei, she could have suicided by mounting her dragon and killing Cersei. But she didn't. She went back to Dragonstone to wait and mourn and think about her next moves...and hopefully about all the "advice" she has not been getting.

I agree R132. We have no idea how the conversations went:Sansa and Tyrion's, and Sansa, Arya and Bran....after Jon's big reveal. Something is up. Arya doesn't say here we all are, the last of the Starks, and then ride off with The Hound. Wonder if our little hero has her bag of faces with her...

"I've seen the leaked episode 5 and and it's the worst ending in tv history”

Well let's hope the ending to episode 6 is better.

But I won't hold my breath

Dexter is the worst series finale I've ever seen.

There is no leaked episode 5, that I know of, andI check every morning, but there are credible leaks of the plot of episode 5. Maybe that's what you mean? SPOILERS:

Cleganebowl does happen and both brothers die. Jaime kills Euron. ( I found this disappointing because I was hoping Cersei kills him.) Dany and Grey Worm go on a rampage at King's Landing and a lot of people die. Varys is going to die. There's a trial at the end for Tyrion, and it seems he's being punished for helping his family try to survive Dany's rampage? All I can tell you is Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Davos are at his trial. But I think the trial happens in episode 6. I could say more but I'm not gonna.

OK. I will. Jaime dies with Cersei. Dany executes Varys for treason. (he becomes a charcoal briquette.) Dany may die. In fact some are saying Jon has to kill her, but I don't know how they get to that conclusion. So I'm still doubtful about how Dany dies. Some people are saying that Bran will become King of Westeros. I also don't believe this one. In fact I hope it's not true. It would be a real stupid conclusion. In fact that kind of ending would be a shit mess. IMO.

I hope Cersei is going to get raped to death by the Dothraki

I will vomit if Jaime dies in Cersei’s arms instead of cutting her arms off.

This season has become such a telenovela. Women who had previously never shed a tear are now bawling over their men. It's embarrassing.

Somebody give us some screen shots from Episode 5. Cersei’s death needs to be vicious. I will be disappointed if it’s not.

My last bit of SPOILER information was that Jaime and Cersei die "together" but nothing about how or whether they're "in each others' arms." She always said "we came into this word together and we'll leave it together."

Stuff like screenshots and video of Episode 5 will probably follow the pattern set for earlier episodes. Look for that stuff to start hitting on Saturday and especially in the hours before it airs on Sunday.

I hope Dany gets a tragic death..

Making Dany ‘mad’ in the space of two episodes has been awful and if these spoilers are true, what a totally shit ending for her. Are we really supposed to be siding with Sansa, Arya and Varys? She’s done nothing wrong - and they’d all be dead if she hadn’t gone north to help them. The burning of the Tarlys is repeated again and again, especially by that whining fat fuck Sam - all to reinforce how crazy and out of control she is.

Fuck the writers. They can’t even remember small details about their own show and are now butchering some of the best characters. Jaime dying in Cersei’s arms also ruins his entire arc. Tyrion should have been killed off soon after Tywin died as he’s been utterly useless ever since.

I am truly worried these spoilers for the last two episodes are true, since a lot of them have been proved true thus far.

Dany hasn’t gone “mad” IMO. She’s rightfully concerned.

She’s realised that as a foreign invader one trusts her or is thankful for her.

She’s realised, as Varys pointed out last season, that her male supporters with operational genitals follow her in part because they want to fuck her.

2 of her children are dead.

Her army has been obliterated.

Her two closest allies are dead and one is on the mainland.

She’s discovering that “bend the knee or I burn you” doesn’t work as well with the greater population white folks than it does on slaves and uncivilised horsemen.

I don’t think being really fucking worried about all this is a symptom of “madness” but presumably Varys or Tyrion or Sansa will make this case.

R147 Have you followed anything about the series? It's been mentioned countless times that the Targaryens and their incest leads to madness.

R148, but not all Targaryens are mad. Rhaegar was not mad. In fact, he was quite well loved by even the common people, and the nobles respected him and remarked how unlike his father (Mad King Aerys) he was. I can't remember if this was ever mentioned in the series, but in the books various characters compare Dany to Rhaegar and her nutty brother Viserys to their father, the Mad King Aerys. They did not need to go down the Mad Queen storyline route. If they do, though, I imagine that's what George RR Martin had in mind for her. Oh well, character flips and redemption arcs overturned. How unexpected! Meh.

Lets just watch Cersei and Dany kill each other...

r147, Dany’s army is not “obliterated”. She lost half her forces which is still a considerable number. When she first acquired the Unsullied, the count was 80,000. Aside from the few who were killed by Sons of Harpys in Meereen, she still has about 40,000. Add that to the North forces led by Jon Snow, and her most powerful dragon, that appears to be more than the Golden Company and Fuck Face Greyjoy’s fleet.

Her "siege" of King's Landing looked like she had about a dozen Unsullied left.

R152 You don't bring everyone to a parlay. Cersei didn't bring her full defense either. (This is the easy in-universe explanation.)

Rheager did go a little mad. He became obsessed with the Azor Ahai myth and had to have another son to make it come true. Now it's coming true, his son Jon will kill his lover, it's just not as romantic as imagined. It's brutal and tragic. No one thought about the sacrifice victim as a person, but we see her journey and struggle. It's fucking tragic.

Rhaeger is the villain in that he sets all this in motion.

Dumb and Dumber have turned GoT into a CGI shitstorm.

NONE of the prior plots matter.

I can see them pulling a Merlin and moving the ending to the modern real world with Dany spinning in a Minnesota winter as she throws he hat in the air "DANY!" flashes on the screen.

The lyrics sing, "Without her dragons, She Can Make It On Her Own!"

In GRRM's world, prophesy isn't a promise from him that the story will follow what certain characters have said -- prophesy is literally a form of explanation for characters who believe they have a certain special destiny. For GRRM prophecy is motive not plot. For D&D who knows. I might just be white noise.

Did I misread - or didn't Jon kill Ygritte in the books? On the show the kid shot her, but in the books I thought it was more clearly his fault. Either way, he already killed his love. His thing with Dany is not even vaguely as convincing as his story was with Ygritte.

R150 that would be fun but GRRM and B and Weiss are too dumb to go there. Their OCD with Jamie and Cersei dying together is the stuff dumb fairy tales are made of! A horrible comic book cliche.

Can anyone list other threads on the internet with credible spoilers? Thanx.

R158 There's a subreddit specifically created by people who were tired of hearing that they couldn't post leaks or spoilers in the main GOT subreddits. Tons of accurate leaks.

I believe, in the end, Tyrion Lannister will sit on the Throne. A comment my friend Rich made got me to thinking. He said “It was strange how Varys suddenly seemed to be concerned about Daenerys not being fit for the Throne.” He was commenting on the writing, but it prompted me to do some reading about Varys in the books. What I read had led me to believe that Varys plan the entire time has been to get Tyrion on the Throne “for the good of the realm.” I think he’s been using Dany for her Army, and her dragons, but he never thought she was fit. He was impressed with Tyrion at Kings Landing, and this whole time that has been his goal. I believe he will be executed for treason, but Tyrion will be King.

In S05E03, a Red Priestess stares at Tyrion for an uncomfortably long time. We never find out why. Not unlike when Bran stares at him at Winterfell in S08E01. I think they both knew or were sensing it. I think when Tyrion sat down with Bran in S08E02 and they cut away from their conversation, Bran may have even told him. Remember, Tyrion’s spirits seemed much better after his conversation with Bran.

Remember Tyrion’s father saying “You’re no son of MINE”- he seems like he means it literally. I think Tyrion is the son of Joanna and the Mad King. He too is a Targaryan, and has a legit claim to the throne. Remember how the Dragon seemed to take to him?

I believe this is the ending George R.R. Martin intends to have in the books. Though, I think he may get to it more artfully.

"When he [Tyrion] opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king." - From the book Game of Thrones, 1996. Figurative and literal foreshadowing. They USE THE WORD shadow!

You believe? We already know how it ends, dear. And it's not that way.

R161 Well don't keep me in suspense, dear. Spill!

Maybe we’ve been double crossed and it’s Varys who is executed at the dragon pit!

R160. No Bran gave Tyrion a look like:" I'm on to you motherfucker." Tyrion will be burnt to a crisp.

R164 Could be, but Bran is hard to read.

Allegedly Jaime and Cersei die in the chamber under the Red Keep where the gigantic dragon skulls are kept (as seen in S6) The Red Keep collapses upon them. One of the main leakers, who has now been proven credible, his source proclaimed that Cersei’s death was disappointing and that she deserved more.

This is from another leaker but is unverified:

[quote]When Jaime shows up to try to get Cersei out of the city, she has this speech about just wanting the baby to survive. Jaime tells her that the baby never mattered, that only she mattered, that only they mattered. That's when they die together.

RIP Jaime’s entire character arc.

R166, I’m clearly in the minority on this, but with proper dramatic build-up that could have been an effective ending for him. But now it will look abrupt and arbitrary.

I understand him wanting to rescue his pregnant sister. But I am hoping somehow, Tyrion or Bran will tell Brienne he loved her. And he didn't want Cersei to harm Brienne...which was the whole reason he sent her away from King's Landing, the first time, after watching Cersei stalking her at Joffrey's wedding. IMO Jaime and Dany seem to be heading for the most tragic, saddest character arcs in this series. Shame on D&D. They could have done so much better.

This is why I keep saying that GRRM could get the last laugh when/if he finishes the book.

If he finishes the books, and they tend to be well received, someone could do a kick ass animated retelling of the story.

R168, I don’t think that’s the work of D&D. GRRM ‘s vision for the story was always going to be dark. The series was most effective when it was dark and tragic. That lifted it above most fantasy stories.

Tyrion getting the Iron Throne would be the absolute worst ending I could think of. He hasn't even been enjoyable to watch since Season 4 after his trial. The plot armor of all 3 Lannister children this entire show has been the most aggravating aspect of all to me, so the idea that any Lannister in the end rules the Realm is the worst.

I never was a Sansa fan, but at this point I would find it a fitting end for her to rule, but she really should stay in the north. I'd prefer King's Landing be obliterated and gone, adding to the lore of a second Age of Heroes that defeated the Night King.

Really, if they wanted to set up a Mad Dany plot, they shouldn't have had Cersei maintain control over King's Landing. It doesn't inspire any strong feelings when the most hated character (Cersei) is going up against one that the viewers have been pushed to love (Dany). If they had left Tommen as King (with Marge and the High Sparrow, but let's say they're still blown up in the Sept) with a generally happy smallfolk populace I could see the story of them hating a foreign dragon queen. Right now, why would they hate her when they have been hating Cersei and mocking her openly in the streets as a brotherfucker since S2?

At this point, I don't see any ending that is going to wrap this up well. I'm just hoping for all 3 Lannisters gone, BRONN gone, and the Iron Fleet torched.

Yes Jamie's redemption is negated. Also Cersei isn't gutted by Arya. What a bag of bullshit this ending is. Cersei wanted him dead and he runs back to her like an absolute dope.

I agree r168. They’ve really messed up these characters. Honestly if they didn’t want to do a 10 episode season for 7 and 8, which probably would’ve been enough time to wrap things up, then they should’ve turned the production over to someone else, keep their exec producer credit or whatever, and fucked off to Star Wars land.

You know, I'm really not happy about Jaime. In the scene with Tyrion, they were sitting in a pub together the night before the armies leave, and Tyrion said, "So your staying here with her?" And Jaime explained that Brienne had to stay because she swore to protect the Stark girls. And he was staying with her. Then Bronn came in and they talked more about the defeat of Cersei, etc. and Broon's mission to kill them. So IMO people who think Jaime didn't really love Brienne are wrong. He does. If D&D don't acknowledge the legitimacy of Jaime's redemptive arc, and instead they chose to say well, Jaime was too weak and he couldn't resist Cersei, they are pissing away all credibility.

R174, the shot of Jaime awake, brooding, after he’d had sex with Brienne, showed that, no matter what he had said to Tyrion the night before, he was no longer confident about his decision to stay. Why? We’ll find out. Jaime’s “redemption” only has as much legitimacy as D&D choose to give it; they are creating the show.

R169 is right, this would be great as an animated series. It could take all the time it needed, and effectively have an unlimited visual effects budget.

[quote]the shot of Jaime awake, brooding, after he’d had sex with Brienne, showed that, no matter what he had said to Tyrion the night before, he was no longer confident about his decision to stay

That shot was before the bar scene with Tyrion.

Is Brienne pregnant ?

I do think Jamie is going back to kill Cersei. That won’t ruin his arc. He came off bad because he wanted Brienne to stay away . He knows what Cersei can do. I do think he will die with Cersei though. Maybe he kills Cersei and Qyburn kills him? Or he kills Cersei and roof falls on them after?

R176, no, according to recaps the brooding by the fire is immediately followed by Jaime’s exit, followed by the sobbing Brienne. The bar scene was several scenes earlier.

r160 yes because Tyrion is TARGARYEAN. In the books it is totally implied and I believe GRRM had that in mind

[quote]The burning of the Tarlys is repeated again and again, especially by that whining fat fuck Sam - all to reinforce how crazy and out of control she is.

And this pisses me off enormously. The Tarlys had just betrayed their lady, Olenna Tyrell, for Cersei, so their loyalty was for shit anyway. They were given a chance to live and hang onto their titles and lands, and they refused, knowing the price. Even Randyll Tarly tried to force his son to bend the knee, and the dumbass wouldn't. Why? For honor? They didn't have any fucking honor after betraying Olenna. Dany had to make an example of them, to show you don't fuck with her, and she used Drogon to do it because he's the most impressive weapon she's got. If Stannis had done it, he'd be viewed as THE MANNIS and this badass king. When Dany does it, she's an out of control despot. GTFO.

She's getting raked over the coals for begging Jon to keep his identity secret, with tons of people using it as an example of how power-hungry she is - but EVERYTHING she said about it taking on a life of its own if it got out happened almost immediately after he let Bran tell Sansa and Arya. She was absolutely right. Ned didn't keep Jon's identity secret for 20 years just to keep him safe from Robert - he also did it to keep him safe from anyone who would use the son of Rhaegar for their own agenda. Now it's happening.

I'm sure that Dany's ending has its roots in Martin's plans for her in the books, but the show is going about it in a horribly rushed, unfair and misogynistic way. They're doing this character dirty, and it sucks.

R180, no he is not, the major plot points between the show and the books wouldn't be different. Unless... Tyrion is going to be revealed to be Targs at the last 2 episode... which is unlikely.

ITA with R181.

[quote]no, according to recaps the brooding by the fire is immediately followed by Jaime’s exit, followed by the sobbing Brienne. The bar scene was several scenes earlier.

He has two brooding scenes- did you not watch the ep? That’s why it’s so confusing/shitty writing.

R185 is right, and there's also the passage of time to account for. He stayed at Winterfell for at least two or three weeks with Brienne. It takes time to get from Winterfell to White Harbour to the ships. It takes time to sail from White Harbour to Dragonstone, where Dany was attacked. Then it's not like someone picked up a phone and called Winterfell to tell Sansa they were attacked. I believe that for a short time, Jaime seriously entertained the notion that with Brienne he could turn his life around. I have to wonder how powerful the scene would have been if Cersei had been staring down not just at Tyrion and Dany, but down on Jaime and Tyrion standing against her together.

I also have to say that not only was murdering Missandei horrific, it was unbelievable. Missandei wasn't a household name. The circle of people who knew her importance was not very big. So how did Euron know to take her hostage? It seems far fetched to me. I get it. Cersei isn't going down without a fight. But I think they could have thought of something more consistent with the character arcs and the storyline. This is and example of a "Throw some shit on the wall and see what sticks" Method.

The only thing I can think of about Missandei is that Euron saw her at the Dragonpit with Dany last season and recognized her in the water. That it he thought a female hostage might be worth more than a male soldier one.

Sorry, that *or he thought...

Missandei being targeted only makes sense if there’s a snitch on Danny’s team... the writing has dropped in quality so they probably won’t even acknowledge how Cersei knew to target her. Also, it was very kind of Cersei to let Missandei change into a nice outfit and do her hair after they found her in the sea all wet.

At first I assumed Missandei drowned. I thought it was dumb how she was "captured." And even dumber how Team Dany even KNEW she was captured and not killed in action or drowned.

R187 offers the only semi-plausible reason for how this happened. Pure dumb luck on Euron's part. And then there's the rushed aspect of this. Are we to assume Cersei sent them communication saying she had a hostage? Did Varys discover it? Did someone "send a raven" to Dragonstone. Did Grey Worm get word of her being picked up from other survivors? It would have been nice if we could have had some sense of continuity in the script to know this. Instead there's Dany at King's Landing all forlorn and Tyrion pleading for MIssandei.

[quote]And then there's the rushed aspect of this. Are we to assume Cersei sent them communication saying she had a hostage?

Lol not only did Team Cersei have to communicate it to Team Dany, someone else then had to send a raven about it up to Sansa, but only that Missandei had been captured, not yet killed. It’s mind boggling bad.

Stop it!!!!!!!!!!! All this complaining is driving me mad!!!!!!

The most reliable spoilers (the ones from folks who got the first four episodes right) have Bran sitting on Throne in the end. Yes, Bran. Jon stabs Dany, and goes way up North to join Ghost. Sansa is Queen in the North.

Vomit

Varys wasted an opportunity to summon his mermen cohorts and take Euron out the picture.

Posted in the wrong thread of GoT, and one bitch was fuming with rabies.

This is maddening, and it won't end well for Dany. I can't watch it anymore, if she gets killed like the spoiler said.

I hate khalessi the most. Kill her jon!

WHET Elaria Sand and her sand snake daughter in Cersei’s dungeon?

R199 Most likely dead. I believe Cersei poisoned them the way Myrcella was poisoned.

No Cersei poisoned the daughter only. Elaria could be alive. Cersei probably starved Elaria to death.

Didn't Cersei put on poisoned lipstick and then kiss the daughter? And then went and sucked Jaime's dick right after? I'd be a little nervous to have her poisoned mouth near my dick if I was him.

What’s the point in having Bran on the throne? Aside from never having an heir, he doesn’t do anything except sit around spouting things people have said in the past.

“Your grace, today we must address the problems of crops, war damage, orphans, religion and rebuilding the military.”

Bran: “Don’t worry. Chaos is a ladder. The things we do for love. Winter is coming. Stick em with the pointy end. Valor morghulis. My little birds will tell me. If you leave one wolf alive, the sheep are never safe. Hodor. The night is dark & full of terrors. Trust no one, not even me. Missa! Fuck the king. Moon of my stars. Everyone is mine to torment Burn them all! The lone wolf dies but the pack survives. More wine! Night gathers & now my watch begins. A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep. You’re a dragon, be a dragon! You know nothing, Jon Snow. If you ever call me siste4 again I’ll have you strangled in your sleep. Monsters are dangerous and just now Kings are dying like flies. The big fish eat the little fish and I keep on paddling. Hold the door! I don't plan on knitting by the fire while men fight for me.”

“Thank you, your grace.” (Kingsguard eyeroll)

Bran was useless during the battle

Didn't Bran willingly relinquish his claim to Winterfell? Why would he accept the Iron Throne? I could see him as an advisor but not an actual ruler.

So I guess all those spoilers about how the ending was going to be 'girl power' are wrong. Sansa will rule the North, but it doesn't sound like the other women will have nothing of note. Except Yara- if she lives. She'll rule Iron Islands.

Bran might be on the throne and have a council of men (Sam, Davos, Bronn, Tyrion)

Both of those endings stink.

R202 Cersei pegged him.

Bran's the 3ER, so he can live a long time. He can choose an heir and will probably outlive everyone he picks.

He'll bring longevity to the monarchy

This interview snippet from Twitter pretty much explains everything with Dany.

Emilia couldn't hide her thoughts.

R203, exactly. Bran is basically a robot now. There's nothing reassuring or comforting about him ending up on the throne - how we're supposed to see it as part of the 'sweet' of the bittersweet ending is a mystery. It's also profoundly unsatisfying from a storytelling perspective.

And Bronn has never truly given a shit about anyone but himself, much less the people - why the fuck would anyone put him on an advisory council to the king?

What a trainwreck.

Since I hate Dany the most, I'm kind of happy with how her character ended.

They had so many choices. I hope the rumor or eak about Bran is wrong. It would be totally stupid. He has done nothing but be crippled for most of the series, and then he actually disappeared from the show for a whole season IIRC. Personally I like the one where Dany dies in childbirth and Jon takes the throne with his baby in his arms.....

Or Jon & Dany ruling together, except she'd have to be less brittle, not so rigid and mean. Dany dying in battle would have been acceptable. She deserves a heroic death not some throw away bulshit by the writers. And Cersei? Damn. Cersei needs the Roose Bolton treatment. I want her to suffer. Murderous bitch! At the very least beheading in the town square.

If Tyrion betrayed Dany he deserves to die. But I hope he doesn't because so far in this rendering he has been a solid guy. Varys, is too flighty. Flits from one "King" to another. If Jon doesn't get the throne, I hope Sansa gets it.

I hope HBO realizes if they give GoT a shitty ending, it's going to endanger the success of any future programs in the franchise. For that reason alone, they should throw the audience a bone or two.

Agree, R213.

I am glad for Khaleesi’s bad ending!

She has always been insane.

I'm just happy that Sansa and Arya live and have a relatively good ending (if the spoilers are true). I wish we had seen this version of Sansa being all calculating and scheming for way longer, but everyone is suffering from this shortened season and awful writing, so all in all, they got lucky.

Sansa Stark is the Erica Kane of GoT.

(And please forgive me if I have broken the Soaps taboo.)

Fuck this soap taboo. A lot of queens love the soaps. Hell, Game of Thrones is a soap opera. Think about it.

New leaks below at the link. If these are true, I can live with these more than the ones that have been released so far. These are from a Reddit leak that was pulled down. When that happens, it often means there was pressure from HBO, which means the leaks were probably true or close to the truth.

Here are the major plot points:

-Arya, the Hound, and Jamie all get to King's Landing. Jaime is soon captured by Cersei's forces.

-Varys is manipulating Dany to make her go crazy, but she catches on and executes him. Tyrion is suspected of being in on Varys's plans, but his life is spared.

-Dany discovers Sansa revealed Jon's true parentage.

-Yara's fleet joins Dany and Drogon and together they take down Euron's fleet. The Golden Company learns of Euron's defeat, sees the writing on the wall, and flips to Dany's side. Cersei knows she's fucked, so she frees Jaime and hides in her chambers with the Mountain and Jaime.

-Jaime is not Jaime but Arya, and Arya takes out Cersei. It's not clear when Arya took his face.

-The Hound and the Mountain square off. I presume this is after Arya takes out Cersei. No real details on this.

-Dany sets a trial charging the Starks with treason. This makes Jon reveal his true identity, presumably to the larger world. Somehow this all leads to Jon killing Dany to protect his family from her ambitions for the throne. Another site alludes to Jon taking out Drogon as well, but that's not entirely clear if or how he does this.

-Jon goes back to the North and rejoins Tormund and Ghost. There's a reunion with Ghost (I really hope this happens).

-The Starks are ruling (doesn't say exactly who, but probably Sansa with Bran's counsel?

-But all is not wrapped up nice and tidy. With Jon in the North, he finds human remains laid out in the spirals the white walkers liked. Sounds like there are still white walkers in the North. I saw on another site that Bran then uses his knowledge from the past to help rebuild the broken wall.

-Nothing really about Tyrion's ending. Jaime is obviously killed by Arya, but how and when? My guess is they'll never show it for the "shock" value.

Not the greatest, but I can see more motivation for Jon to kill Dany if she's threatening the Starks (the lone wolf survives, but the pack survives), then going off North to brood about it for the rest of his life. It would fit his character. Dany is obsessed with loyalty and betrayal, and she and Sansa already have a tense relationship, so I could see her putting the Starks on trial. The white walkers still being a threat ends the series on an ambiguous note, which I figure they'll do somehow.

I guess in two weeks we'll know for sure!

R219, I can live with that ending... as long as Sansa is winning over Dany and Cersei

I like Arya taking J's face. It would be cool if the reveal happened as 'he' choked the life out of her with what should have been a nonfunctional golden hand. So Cersei's prophesy is fulfilled from the books while also revealing that she doesn't in fact get to die with her brother.

r219, I love these leaks!

If that's true then Arya gets the biggest kills of the series!

This plot definitely needed more than 6 episodes to play out, especially Dany's disintegration and Jon's turning on her. With 10 episodes, they might have been able to make it work. As it is, it's going to seem rushed and nonsensical.

It is too bad the showrunners decided to rush through the last two seasons. A slower burn with more plot tied to character and a lot fewer stupid plot holes would have made for a better march to the end of the series. I read the other day, but I can't remember where because I've read a thousand things on this show, that one of the showrunners said Dany "forgot" about Eruon's fleet? What?!?!? More like, we were too fucking lazy to have the plot make sense, so we decided on a scene and in our minds, she "forgot" about the fleet. Plot hole from hell after plot hole from hell. I'm starting to join the chorus of hoping the showrunners' venture into the Star Wars universe is a big failure.

[quote]Also, it was very kind of Cersei to let Missandei change into a nice outfit and do her hair

... and then fucking chop her head off.

Why would Ayra kill Jaime if he was redeemed and all goody goody now?

R227

The same reason she killed Frey's sons first regardless of where each one was on his own personal arc of great wrong and redemption; because she is a trained magical assassin not an avenging executioner. Jaime is an required ingredient in the death we hope she has planned for Cersei.

Jaime has never been really redeemed: I think his final rejection of Brienne is supposed to be a sign that he'll never truly rid himself of Cersei's evil influence. Death by Arya is the best thing for him, really. At least Bri got a taste of that dick before he went.

The leaks are my r218 are fake, sorry. The person who originally posted them was on a GOT theories subreddit and admitted it was just his speculation, probably mixed in with the known accurate leaks.

This is from a person who saw the first hour of Ep 5 via periscope and matches the previous leaks.

Sorry mean the leaks at r219

They somewhat make sense for where this shit show is at so of course they are fake. Has a great show ever failed so badly at the end like this?

It’s really baffling r232. I don’t think anyone thought it would be this much of a catastrophe. I gotta wonder what the execs at HBO are thinking. I know it’s really just about money but this is going to taint the show in the long run. And I also wonder how much the ATT merger might have had a hand in it.

I think what any people have said is true: the show’s collapse was due to GRRM. He didn’t act responsibly—he didn’t finish the series. In theory, he had enough time, but he just couldn’t. D&D, in turn, were not good enough to compensate for the lack of source material. I don’t know what HBO could have done to avoid this. You can’t legally force artists to create art. They couldn’t force GRRM to write, and they had little leverage to compel D&D to speed up or make more episodes. D&D were responsible for HBO’s biggest hit. They could easily find work elsewhere. It would have been impossible to fire them and hire some other credible person to finish the show without causing further delays.

Yeah, R230, it figures the showrunners are going with the shittier storyline from other leaks. God, this is going to be awful.

I think requiring two final seasons of 10 episodes each might have helped. At least they could have arc'ed to this ending a bit better.

[quote] I don’t know what HBO could have done to avoid this.

They could have waited until he finished the writing the novels. Admittedly, at his pace of writing, they would still be waiting.

I don't understand the deep dissatisfaction. It's fine. It's entertaining and soon it won't be over our heads, to wait for and discuss endlessly.

R234 GRRM mapped out this shitty ending with B & W. They met for a week to plan this rubbish out. So he has direct responsibility for this mess.

The showrunners are saying that the ending will be like the Sopranos ending.........terrible.

I don’t know what their contracts look like, but it sounds like HBO was pretty hamstrung with how much they could dictate to Dan and David. Allegedly Martin had some form of veto control that D&D tried to subvert by filming alternate scenes, fake endings, etc. I don’t know the ins and out of it, just rehashing gossip. I wish D&D had just turned the writers room over to Bryan Cogman or someone else. That would’ve been a huge improvement and they’d still get the glory of being the showrunners.

R241 Cogman’s ep was markedly better than the others have been so far. I think he was the only one left who actually gave a shit. D&D said in the commentary for the last ep that Dany ‘forgot’ that Euron had most of the Iron fleet, and that’s why he was able to ambush them. WTF?!

FWIW, Spanish leaker dude has said that HBO have people monitoring the spoiler threads on Reddit, and that they are probably posting fake ones after the monumental clusterfuck when the whole plot of S7 was leaked there a couple of years ago. That guy’s in a position to know seen as he was threatened with legal action if he didn’t keep his mouth shut. It’s not expensive to have an intern posting crap from throwaway accounts. They’ve also almost certainly filmed fake scenes. I’m not buying that anyone except the actors, writers and producers know the whole plot of S8. The finale was directed by D&D precisely because they wanted to step up security even more.

I can’t believe I read people would rather fuck Tormund than Jaime. I’d take the Sister Fucker over the wildling who shits himself any day. If Arthur Dayne came back from the dead, they could both fuck off.

Arthur Dayne was hot as fuck. I wish they’d do a Robert’s Rebellion series just so he could come back.

R239, except GRRM doesn’t rush his plots. While I’m sure he would have Dany going mad, it’s happen in an earned way that makes sense and takes time.

Not sure why people are surprised the writing is so bad now. The show runners were good at adapting existing storylines but they suck horribly at telling those stories themselves. Since the show passed the books, smart characters became stupids, intelligent conversations all went away, and the show now relies on action and CGI to attract viewers.

The show went from being A Lord of The Rings to being another Transformers movie went it passed the books.

Not sure why they rushed the ending considering how much money it was making them either. The show runners are horrible writers.

r203

you just made my day. spot on

So the ending is a reprise of the first 10 minutes of Season 1 episode 1 with a fade to black? Fuck that. What a lame silly stupid fucking end . They fought the Night King for what? So that the ice zombies would still exist?!

This

"... GRRM doesn’t rush his plots. While I’m sure he would have Dany going mad, it’s happen in an earned way that makes sense and takes time."

Thank you, R244. This is exactly the point.

I think their plots would have worked if they hadn't gone for shock over plot sense. In the battle of Winterfell, the plot made sense for me until Arya pole-vaulted onto the Night King. It took me right out of the story because it made no sense. I later had to make up my own story of how she could have penetrated a circle of White Walkers with not one of them seeing her. Arya has mad skills, but she is not a magical being.

As for Missandei, we heard Grey Worm order her into a skiff. So she might never have had to swim. Just one scene of Missandei in a life boat, looking back over her shoulder at the destruction, would have helped set the later scenes. And if Tyrion had just one line of dialogue to Varys, about how he hasn't been able to stop thinking about Jon's secret for weeks, would have helped provide a sense of time passage. Dany was almost home, probably grateful to get out of the damned North and back to where she belonged, so it would make sense that she was so joyful that she was careless and over-confident. But I wasn't sure where Dany was when suddenly the dragon was taken out. Trying to make sense of the surprise again took me out of the show, and it could have been fixed with just a line or two of dialogue.

I bet that the reaction to the last episode will be a reminder of Lost....really, REALLY?

r237 GRRM will never finish "The winds of winter" or "A dream of spring"

The only way those novels will be written as if GRRM's estate grants other writers the rights to write them.

Ian Fleming's estate does this. There have been more James Bond novels written by other writers then by Fleming.

Where does the last completed book in the series leave off? I'm on book three.

Jon Snow's death.

R247 once again GRRM mapped out the ending with the showrunners. He approved this horseshit. His depiction of Dany's madness? Will that ever be published?! I highly doubt it.......

Someone said the ending of Lost? B and W are going for more of a Sopranos meets a Breaking Bad ending. Actually is it more like the all time worst Dexter!

What D&D don’t seem to understand is that a Breaking Bad or Sopranos type ending just wouldn’t work for a show like Thrones. Breaking Bad is about one man’s evil. The Sopranos, I mean, love it or hate it no one can touch that ending for sheer chutzpah. (Lost is probably Thrones closest cousin— sprawling mythology, huge cast, mysticism, etc. ) When I hear them talking about wanting to emulate those shows I despair. Neither of these two have the talent to pull that off.

[quote]GRRM will never finish "The winds of winter" or "A dream of spring"

I agree. Maybe we'll get "Winds of Winter" in the next 5 years...but the last book? That will probably take another 8-10 years to complete. George will be 80 by then.

I just don't see him completing it. Either he'll croak before then, or he won't have the stamina to finish it--especially when everyone already knows how the overall plot ends (i.e. Dany going mad, White walkers still ambiguously lurking, etc.)

I think the only similarity between GRRM's final two books and the show is how it ends. How we get there will be considerably different. Remember, there are characters that are dead in the show still alive in the books. The TV show fucked up the Kingdom of Dorne and the Martell family after Oberyn's death. GRRM's Dorne/Martell story is sooo much better and includes an absolutely fierce female character named Princess Arianne Martell, Oberyn's niece. Dan and Dave are IDIOTS for leaving her out of the TV show.

The whole show never made much sense. Many of the characters are teenagers, yet we're supposed to believe they're capable of ruthlessly strategizing to attain world domination.......with no military or political experience.

R258 Well, the female characters were even younger in the books, then realized how pedo it is

I think Martin could still include a time jump in his books. After the Wall falls, the Night King crosses, and then a Long Winter hits the country - basically, the country is snowed in for X number of years, allowing the kids to age and preventing any major military actions. When the books pick up, food is scarce, people are going mad from being inside, and in the North.... people are just disappearing. Strange sounds in the night. Strange symbols on the ground. Then Dany invades and sets off the last chain of events.

R260 still wanting that non-existent “time jump” during which Jaime and Brienne were married and came up with baby names.

I've been thinking of these characters and where their storyline, or character arc takes them, and really what were Jaime's options as a character? Did we really expect him to stay at Winterfell with Brienne? Did we expect him to join Tyrion and fight with Dany against his sister?

If he was to remain true to his character, and really give us a sucker punch to the gut, his character's most believable option was to do exactly what he did, in spite of the fact that he now knows his sister intends to kill him. She's tried twice:once face to face, with the Mountain as her executioner, and now with Bronn. And she has called him a traitor.

What are Bran's options: Stay at Winterfell and be a seer. Go to the Citadel and be the Grand Maester and world Historian. (I like this option) I can't see him doing anything else...well turning into a tree? But maybe the 3ER before him was forced to do that because of the Night King. Now that he's gone, Bran can stay above ground.

What's Sansa's option? Stay at Winterfell and become a great power and influence, and eventually Warden of the North. She's already lived in King's Landing so I don't think it holds any attraction for her. She's already been married and Ramsey would make her swear off men for good. And she has seen what damage people like Littlefinger and Cersei can do, so I don't think she's ambitious to reach for more, she's not on a power trip. I think she is into protecting herself from other people who are on a power trip.

Arya: I can see Arya being part of Jon's life, as some kind of warrior, or Sansa's life, as long as she could come and go, or maybe she'll eventually finding her way back to Gendry. I can even see Arya being put in charge of Bear Island since the Mormonts are gone.

Dany: Marrying Jon and ruling together is the most reasonable expectation. But will she be willing to share? She says it's her "birthright" but is it? It was her brother's. She was just a pawn to give him an army of Dothraki. She re invented herself. She is really a warrior, so dying in battle is another possibility. Ruling alone and breaking up with Jon is another option.

What about Jon/Aegon: He could decide to never acknowledge his Targaryen roots and keep being Jon Snow of Winterfell, or get his own keep. Maybe take High Garden. He could rule jointly with Dany as a Targ. He could rule alone as a Targ if Dany dies in battle. I don't see too many other options. Going North to hang out with Tormund seems like a silly option. Remember when Edd asked him where he'd go and he said, "Some place warm!" The idea ofhi living some pointless existence north of the Wall with his dog and some wildings seem like fan fiction. Truly.

It seems we've all marked Tyrion, Dany, Varys Jaime, and Cersei for death. The Hound and The Mountain, too.

Tyrion should not die. His character arc, IMO, brings him to the Throne. Maybe he makes a deal with Jon to be his ally.

The Unhinged need their own fanfic thread.

Brienne will just stay at Winterfell, "guarding " Sansa? What about Podrick? Now there's an option. Podrick and Sansa. He'd put a smile on her face.

My god, how in the hell did one of the best shows on tv turn into this fucking shit fest??!!

Let this be a lesson to what happens due to the effects of lazy writing.

I'm sure this final season will win 286 Emmys in the fall.

R265, they had so many choices, and they made decisions to go down a particular path and this is what they ended up with. It is very sad. I won't begrudge them the Emmys, because it has been so consistently good for so many years. I don't think Season 7 was bad. It had some very good episodes. But aside from Episodes 2 & 3 of this last season, they may as well, have ended it with the Death of the Night King in Episode 3. (Wrap up Cersei's storyline by having Euron and Cersei poison one another. LOL!)

It makes sense to me that there would be a King's Council after Cersei's death, to choose the new King. But I can't see any council choosing Bran, for a number of highly sensible reasons.

Bran would make a good King advisor... or just a puppet King.

I don't think Bran would even make a great advisor... he's just a historian. And he only knows facts, he can't analyze them to explain why this was a good idea or that was a bad idea. Just facts.

R269 he deliberately thought that outing Jaime was not a good idea in the Ep 2

And we all saw how meaningful that was *rolls eyes*

Anyone read the spoilers or foilers over on Primetimer?

They completely contradict themselves about what will really happen during the battle at Kings Landing.

One has Dany going mad queen and burning the whole city down even though Cersei surrenders, the other has children acting like suicide bombers and blowing themselves up with wildfire to help the cause.

R255 The Sopranos ending was utterly stupid. It was a semi-comedic soap opera about a bunch of goombas in New Jersey. They didn't need to get artsy-fartsy with the ending. Breaking Bad had a very satisfying ending because it tied up all the loose ends. Walter defeated Heisenberg and The Nazis and Jesse lived. GOT leaving an open ending for any other purpose than a sequel or movie is a dumb idea as well. Perhaps Dumb and Dumber want us to ask question like:" Is Dany The Night Qiueen now?" "Is Tormund still alive?" "Will there be a movie/"

When you think about it...

Missandei was snarky to Sansa in the crypts... she dead. The Night King threatened to take away everything that Sansa held dear... he dead. Dany was at odds with Sansa... she about to be dead. The Lannisters that Sansa doesn't like... they about to be dead.

Even if Sansa doesn't take the throne, seems like she wins the game.

Big Final Reveal...

Sansa with Mellisandre's necklace!!!!!

ALL ALONG!!!

Toby Osmond plays the new Dornish prince!!! Let's cross fingers for some gay sex

Besides the awful writing, this season is suffering from focusing too much on the characters with the weakest actors in the show. Emilia Clark is adorable and funny in real life, and I'm sure she can fit some specific roles, but she's had me cringing more often than not in GOT. And yet she's acting circles around that stick-in-the-mud Kit Harington. Both the character and the actor are dragging her down. The onscreen romance is not working on any level. Their antichemistry is embarrassing and their characters work much better, when they are paired with more charismatic actors.

Unfortunately I can't wish for more Lena Headey scenes, because her character is stuck with Discount Jack Sparrow. Pilou Asbaek is not a bad actor by any means, but he's been saddled with such embarrassing bad writing, that it doesn't matter how hard he tries.

It's not the seemingly bad spoilers. It's the journey, that has been rushed and nonsensical. There is no excuse for D&D, because GRRM told them his ending a long time ago and they should have planned accordingly.

Yeah, there's no romantic chemistry with Jon and Dany. They seem more like siblings.

She wasn't bad with Daario, but that's because the actor had some charisma. As did Jorah. Like you said, more charismatic actors.

They must've hired Kit for his pouty looks, because he's just like a wet blanket in many of his scenes. Not all, sometimes he's delivered. Mostly in battle or fighting scenes.

I agree the romance between Dany and Jon doesn't seem believable at all. I lowers the tension in the episode every time they talk about it.

Besides that the characters have nothing in common. It's wouldn't even be believable in the books

“They seem more like siblings...”

“Have nothing in common...”

You guys know who you’re talking about right? Lol.

I think in the books their romance would make a lot more sense. In the show it fails because the last few seasons have been very rushed compared to their book pace and the early seasons and because the actors portraying them aren’t that strong.

Some screen shots please!

[quote]Besides that the characters have nothing in common. It's wouldn't even be believable in the books

If you truly think that, you haven't been paying attention. It's obvious in the books that Martin has placed them on parallel paths, with all sorts of equivalencies; this is true on the show as well, although somewhat murkier due to D&D's fuckery.

The linked video lays out the show's parallels very well:

They still lack chemistry. And the lack of chemistry is an issue considering the scenes D&D have chosen to tell the story. Their 'romance' told from someone else's POV would pack more punch because jealousy or dismay are always easier to emote than elusive 'chemistry.'

When Jon was with Ygritte, it didn't bother me that much, because Leslie Rose had enough chemistry and talent to overcome Kit's dullness, but it's too much of a challenge for Emilia.

Sometimes I wonder if I would have liked Dany more if she was played by a more compelling actress, like Natalie Dormer, while Emilia played Margaery. How much more believable she would have been! Instead I have to watch Dany's and Sansa's confrontations and laugh at the idea, that Dany is a queen. It's not only that Sophie towers over Emilia, it's Sansa's cool confidence and haughtiness, that Dany seems unable to match. Now, I can't imagine a Dany played by Natalie coming off "small", no matter Sophie's size.

R284, Margaret was probably my favorite female character. Now that I think about it, I probably wouldn’t like her anywhere as much if Emilia had played her.

Jon/Dany lack of chemistry comes from Kit Harington's relunctance to act like he's in love with Daenerys because he used to fuck Emilia Clarke in real life and is afraid people will notice. He's a known fuckboy and cheater who wants to look pristine now that he's married, at the detriment of his acting performance, even though he's already not a strong actor to begin with. D&D fucked up massively with his casting, and don't seem to be bothered by his lack of work ethic anyway.

[quote]because Leslie Rose

Wut, who?

Rose Leslie

No leaked episode yet? Is HBO keeping a tight lid on things so we don't find out how very shitty Episode 5 is going to be?

R289 duh

LOL, thanks for clarifying, HBO exec @ R290!

You can't blame everything on the actors. Well, I guess you can, but that would be short sighted IMO. Kit and Emilia have a director, and the writers have written their characters a certain way. So while I can agree that both have limitations as actors, the quality of their performances is at least half the responsibility of the writers and directors.

Honestly, this season makes me more anxious for GRRM to finish his book. I hope he realizes the opportunity to fully reclaim his story and get the last laugh by making Dave and Dan look like shit.

I really want an oral history on this final season in 5-10 years time.

I have read the books and I'll say again. Jon and Dany have nothing in common.

Jon was raised with great wealth and privilege. He was ostracized socially but never wanted for anything. Dany had no home and lived on the sufferance of random strangers with an abusive brother her entire childhood.

Jon does not like leading people, and often tries to avoid it. Dany loves wielding power and seeks it out at every opportunity.

They are as different as any two characters in the series. It makes no sense that they'd end up together.

R277 GRRM just didn't tell them the ending he hammered it out with D & D for a few days in is house out in New Mexico! What an abortion all around.

This week will be the beginning of the flush, where all the turds are in motion and swirling about.

Next week will be the final vortex down to the glug-glug.

Thank you Dumb and Dumber.

Not with a bang but a whimper...

Where is there Fanfic Frau who hilariously thinks that Jaime is going to Kings Landing to assassinate Cersei?

Did she even WATCH Episode 4 last week?

Oh, that's right. She was making up Jaime's marriage and lifetime commitment to Stretch during the "obvious lengthy time lapse" in her head to pay attention to what was actually on screen.

I haven't commented on it upthread but I do think Jamie is going to kill Cersei. I think he believes he has to be the one to do it.

The book prophesy makes it pretty clear Cersei is supposed to be murdered by her younger brother. Jaime seems the most likely to get close enough.

I'm with those who hope Arya kills Jaime first, takes his face and then executes Cersei because in actuality, the Lannister twins have been terrible fucking people and Brienne's opinion that Jaime can be redeemed literally only works when she is right there in front of him making him make the less shitty decisions.

So no leaks this week. HBO actually managed to break the streak. I expect the same for next week.

They have squandered 2 seasons having Jon Snow walking aimlessly in the snow. And for the final season to end it all, they wanted to pay for 6 lousy episodes!!!! What a cop out!!!

Well the subtitles have leaked. The spoilers are confirmed.

Dany kills Varys. Tyrion releases Jaime so that he and Cersei can escape the city. Dany demolishes the city (yes, the bells are there) Jaime and Cersei die in each other’s arms.

Yay!!!!!! Cersei and Jaime are together again at the end!

I knew he had to get to her no matter what. And Tyrion helps his family!!!!

R295, you're choosing to be obtuse. No one will be able to convince you otherwise, so whatever. Enjoy.

[quote]I really want an oral history on this final season in 5-10 years time.

I truly believe that years down the line, when no one's livelihood depends on it any longer, all sorts of shit is going to come out about this show. For one thing, there's a list of actors who have been treated so shabbily it's shocking, beginning with Conan Stevens, the original Mountain. Aimee Richardson, the original Myrcella, found out she'd been replaced by another actress for her character's big storyline via Twitter - I mean, this is a kid. The reason the actor who played Rickon Stark didn't have any dialogue in his final episode (Battle of the Bastards) is because they would have had to pay him a bit more - he'd been with the show from the original pilot, FFS. Then there's Alexander Siddig, who was hired to play Prince Doran for at least 8 episodes and was fired with no real explanation after just a few. Ciaran Hinds and Stephen Dillane both expressed disdain for the way things were handled for them. The actress who played Ros was fired when she didn't want to do nudity anymore. And there's other stuff too, starting with the bad nlood that developed between D&D and GRRM. I think there's been a lot of toes stepped on along the way, to say the least.

R305 wants to speak to a manager.

Terrible, R303. My worst fears realized. The fanfic is more interesting than the ending D&D chose.

And yet, the fanfic is NON-CANON!

I’m sorry r307. Really disappointed in this shit.

I hope Fanfic Frau comes here and rants away hysterically!

Bring on her UNHINGED self!

I never thought Jaime and Brienne would have a happy ending, so I'm cool with him dying. But I thought he'd die trying to kill Cersei, not save her.

Oh well.

I'm more bummed if the rumor of the Hound dying is true

I want them all to die except Dany, Sansa and Arya.

Three queens can rule seven kingdoms: Queen in the North. Queen in the South. The Queen of Queens.

R312 You'd never stop hearing SJW stuff if that were to happen.

Jon kills Khaleesi, so no Queendom for her.

[quote]I never thought Jaime and Brienne would have a happy ending, so I'm cool with him dying. But I thought he'd die trying to kill Cersei, not save her. Oh well.

Never expected that first scenario either. But they way they’ve done this is wow. Just awful. Jaime as a character is just nothing after this.

The Lannisters together again!!!

For real. He wants to sail off and start a new life with Cersei? I don't think so.

There was the horse...

The bells....

Go look at Twitter. I was looking at the topic “Tyrion” when I noticed that every single tweet was either sent by a black person or had a gif of a black person in it. Wtf is that about?

There’s no way only black people or white people tweeting black gifs is random. Some kind of bullshit is going on.

This is absolutely sick.

Happy Mother's Day I guess

Time for Cleganebowl. Let's get this started.

The person who predicted the Mountain would kill Qyburn gets a star.

All of the spoilers were right.

Qyburn was loyal to the end I'll say that for him.

[quote] [R284], Margaret was probably my favorite female character.

If so, why can't you get my name right?

I believe the leak that Bran will end up on the throne. And he'll have his council of Sam, davos, Tyrion, and unfortunately, Bronn.

I believe the leak that Bran is on the throne at the end came out with the leak of Episode 5 (which turned out to be completely accurate), so I believe it as well.

Bran just sitting there all along in his wheelchair throne. Just waiting and watching like a boss. Dayum.

It'll be a nice change from the queens blowing everything up or torching the place.

Bran is way more mellow...

This sucks. The Sopranos had a better ending than this.

I don't want Bran on the throne!!!! shitty ending!

Garbage. Worse than Sopranos, as bad as Dexter.

I get Dany turning on the surrender and wiping out most of KL.

She is a queen NOT to be fucked with.

The prophecy of the alencar was bullshit as Dany killed them both in the caverns collapses.

Clegain bowl was a big let down as the mountain was animated by magic. BFD.

Wanted to see Euron scream in pain as he died. Jamie gave a death blow and waded away.

How many times did we need to see Arya wake up and pull herself out of dragon ashes?

I used to be a Tyrion fan. Time to kill the dwarf.

I hope the throne room is still serviceable for the melting of the Iron Throne.

Biggest loser: The Iron Bank of Braavos. Guess those Lannisters wont be paying their debts after all.

I understood Dany going after the fleet and the scorpions. Brilliantly executed flying maneuvers. I even understood Gray Worm killing soldiers who already surrendered because he was so angered by what happened to Missandei. But When Dany just went on a killing spree destroying the entire city, that was beyond comprehension. Is she despondent? Does she no longer care what happens to her? Because she has sown the seeds for her own destruction. She made it clear to Jon that Sansa is her enemy. Taken altogether I liked this episode. It was edge of your seat and just as good if not better than anything Marvel has.

Mountain looked like a very bloated Varys.

I thought he'd be freakier.

Totally disagree r337. Like she said to Tyrion, it is merciful to rid KL of a murderous tyrant to be replaced by a new era of peace.

Sansa is not her enemy. She respects Sansa as a survivor.

Excited to see Dany die next week!

I want Dany to rule the reconstruction of Westeros.

I think that Dumb and Dumber have plenty of endings and footage to recut S8E6.

I do not think the ending is set in stone.

Cersei's death was anticlimactic as fuck. So disappointed. For all the shit Cersei has done, that was some bullshit. She deserved to have her throat cut like Lady Cate. Dave and Dan deserve every bit of dragging for this subpar episode.

If Sansa were in King's Landing, she would have been fried with Varys. I'm kind of sorry there was no conspiracy between Sansa and Cersei.

I feel like Dany destroyed the city because she felt unloved by Westeros.

You cant make a new land of people immediately love her though. Didnt it take a while for her to get that in Meereen and there were still people who didnt side with her?

R343 might be on to something.

So. Dany Grey Worm, Tyrion, Sansa Arya, Jon, Davos Brienne, Podrick, Bronn, Bran , Samwell, GIlly and little Sam are still alive.

Jaime, Cersei, The Hound, The Mountain, Qyburn, Euron, and Varys all died in Episode 5. I hate Bronn. I wish someone would kill him.

R343 I completely agree with you, she's realized that she gave up everything that once was valuable to her (Khal Drogo, her child, two dragons. Missandei) just to get to the throne and rule over some ungrateful, unwashed plebs. She's also gotten a taste of what it means to be in a position of power and resents the fact that she'll always have to watch her back for possible attempts on her life.

Because of this I got the strange feeling she will kill herself, it would be a very twisted ending but it would make sense. It would be interesting if her last dragon chooses Jon over her and she realizes, she has no one left to love her.

I so wanted Arya to die, it would be the last straw in making Jon realize Dany doesn't deserve to rule over anyone. Knowing D&D's infatuation with that insipid little character it was far-fetched.

OK, fuck the Nymeria will be prominent in Season 8 bullshit.

I am hoping for a new batch of dragons to fly in cementing Dany as Queen.

Reading R346, I was thinking of President Obama. It’s a thankless job, ruling.

But the execution of Varys by dragon fire, sets up Tyrion being flamed.

I wonder if that was a setup for Tyrion to be outed as a Targaryen as he steps out of the flame with white hair.

And fade to black.

Tyrion does have dark hair, like the other half-Targaryen, and unlike the fair-haired Lannisters.

Lenna Heady becomes more masculine day by day.

Poor Brienne. Wonder if Dan and David will give her the further indignity of getting pregnant.

The after-show commentary does a good job about showing all the trauma Dany has endured: her brother was killed horribly by her husband before her eyes; her husband died horribly befoire her eyes; her unborn child was killed in her womb; she tried to burn herself to death; everyone whom she has ever trusted (save Drogon) has either betrayed her (in actuality or apparently) or has been horribly killed, including two of her three "children." Of course she went nuts.

Where did the horse come from ?

[QUOTE]Where did the horse come from ?

It seems to be the same horse the leader of the army was riding in front of the gate at the beginning of the episode.

Qyburn and Cersei had no plan B ?

They did--hide in the Holdfast. They never made it there.

Hiding is not a plan to defeat your enemies

I've lost most hope for this show.

That's about the worst I'll say though. Am I still enjoying myself? Yes, as much as the blander periods of previous seasons. Am I also on the edge of my seat though? Yes, its all the best beats of the best arranged blockbuster.

But all sorts of intriguing threads from not just the books, but particularly the show, don't seem like they'll be even touched on by the show. This is very much a 'wrap it up' season, just with as much CGI as amazingly possible. And that's always going to be disappointing. Episode 5 should not feel like a 7/10 to me, but it does, even as I love so many moments and so much of the production of it.

I think well over an hour of an episode could do miraculous things with the right showrunners, but I don't think that'll be happening here. It'll be a mix of handling things enough to end the show (but not necessarily reach its story potential), or alluding to maybe doing something more with it in a spinoff, or flatly ignoring the matter.

Are we really supposed to believe that Cersei had no tricks up her sleeve for when Dany and her army arrived at King's Landing? That she would merely be standing there? It's just so dumb.

I believe that they showed misfirings of Wild Fire.

so Bran really gonna sit on the throne at the end? bummer

And he'll be there for centuries

This is the shittiest transformation of the main characters in one of the most significant series ever!!!!! They are not who they are anymore!!! Fuck the TV writers, they annihilated everything great about GoT so completely in one season. The spoiler was accurate then!!!!!

This is the end of the Golden Age of TV as I know of.

Gee, I wonder what the books are like (not yet published) I bet it's much better.

What’s the point of having Arya in Kings Landing ? She did NOTHING!!! Hello scriptwriters !!!

Glad the cunt died so I don't have to look at her horrible wig.

Arya chose life over death. That was the point of her journey. And as she tried to run through the city, we saw the epic carnage wrought by Dany, which didn't have to happen. Somewhere in the North, Stannis Baratheon is turning over in his unmarked grave.

So, Dany has taken the city by force, and is the legitimate ruler through right of Conquer. If/when Jon kills her, does he automatically inherit the throne as her nearest relative, even if he's locked up in a dungeon somewhere? And if Jon takes the black after becoming King, thus giving up the throne, does his nearest relative inherit the kingdom, meaning Sansa the oldest, since Bran has already given up his rights of inheritance to Sansa?

[quote]Go look at Twitter. I was looking at the topic “Tyrion” when I noticed that every single tweet was either sent by a black person or had a gif of a black person in it. Wtf is that about?

I don’t understand...

In earlier seasons, Dany would never have her dragon incinerating the whole city like this!

There's no reason why she couldn't fly straight for the Red Keep and detonate that in rage.

So Jaime stabbed Aerys in the back to prevent him from torching the city. His daughter did it any way because nobody loves her and Jaime got stabbed in the back for returning to his sister.

And I am glad Jaime and Lena died together. This episode has destroyed the Incest-Is-Best fetish that has destroyed Westeros.

Hey, this is a war of conquest, and if Jon were to kill Dany he would be justified. There would be no reason for anyone to arrest him or try him. He is the legitimate claimant to the throne and it was always going to come down to Dany or him, she even said so in their last meeting. He kept telling her "I don't want it, you're my queen..." And she said it didn't matter what he wanted .

There is no law. King's Landing, the entire kingdom is in chaos (except for the North.) so with Dany dead, there is no more crazy, and Jon, as the legitimate heir, is entitled to the throne. Now he can back into it, protesting all the way, or he can take it, establish order, then set up a Ruling Council. That would make the most sense. If GRRM goes any other way it's bullshit. He has said he is a student of history, so he has plenty of history to draw from.

Dany is mad, just like the Mad King

I can't imagine anyone caring about that cunt. If I hear her utter dracarys one more time, I'll jump right into there and strangle her myself!

This was supposed to be the Jon Snow show. He's the hero who gets and wants the throne, the prize.

Funny, but I do not get the Dany is mad like the Mad King trope.

I get that she is angry and abandoned. Never piss off the Mother of Dragons.

I still think that Tyrion will walk out of dragon fire...a Targaryen!

I picture the final scene between the THREE dragons: Dany, Jon and Tyrion: FIRE WINS THE GAME OF THRONES.

King's Landing has managed to go on as if everything was normal since Dany's father was murdered by Jaime. The rest of Westeros has been suffering war and chaos and genocidal violence for the last 10 years. The North was finally crushed by the Night King. The Lannisters and the religios zealots wrecked and sacked the Riverlands and High Garden. And the only place where the 'small folk' have not born the brunt of the violence has been in King's Landing. Cersei not only decided to use them as a meat shield, she also chose to decapitate Missandre in a deliberate ploy to enrage the dragon.

I don't really respect the way the writers pretend that Cersei has ever been motivated by her devotion to her children. She may have loved Joffrey, but she clearly did not give a shit about the other ones. So pretending her pregnancy was a new plot twist/motivating force just fell flat. They should have just played her out as a narcissist alcoholic. Lena should have been allowed to gulp wine and chew scenery during this last episode and go down in at least an infuriating manner.

Also Dany should have burned Jaime, not Varys. After all HE killed her father and was a traitor who had triggered her wrath all her life. It makes no sense that she didn't hold a second trial for that and fry him.

Cersei was furious about Tyrion arranging for Myrcella to go to Dorne, r377. She says something about how she hopes to see him suffer the way he's made her suffer. And I think that's what prompts her to ferret out Tyrion's "whore" girlfriend.

Upthread someone mentioned something about Tyrion having dark hair, so maybe he was a Targaryen. In the first episode, Tyrion is shown with blond hair, at least his forelock was blond. I'm not sure when they stopped bleaching it.

[quote]What’s the point of having Arya in Kings Landing ? She did NOTHING!!! Hello scriptwriters !!!

To witness what happened, so that she can loudly lend her voice to those calling for Jon to 'stop' (kill) Dany - and he'll listen to her.

Tyrion may very well be Aerys' bastard in the books, but if the show brings it up just in time for the finale, it will truly be out of fucking nowhere. Plus, Targs are not fireproof - only Dany is, on the show. In the books she was only immune that one time, due to the magic. Plenty of Targs have died by burning. And Jon has been burnt on the show and in the books. Tyrion will not be walking out of fires anytime soon.

Arya set out for King's Landing to kill Cersei. Period. She ended up bearing witness. She saw up close what Death involved and it was not neat, or pretty, but this kind of death, of masses of people in the midst of war, was something she had no experience of. The Night King and the Zombies we a different kind of struggle. I think what she experienced and saw was life changing for her. THis was a pivotal moment. This level of destruction and carnage. I think Arya is probably going to Strom's End to find Gendry.

It was. She's now embracing living, not death. The Hound was pretty effective when he told her to 'look at him' - look what a life dedicated to revenge and hate did to him. He's always been unhappy and alone. He wanted better for her, and she listened.

I'm not sure she'll immediately go back to Gendry. maybe someday if he's not a Lord because she's right, she's not a Lady. She wouldn't be happy in that role. But I could see them traveling the world together.

But if for some reason his being legitimized holds, he will marry someone else and run Storm's End.

I don't see the legitimization of Gendry holding unless Dany keeps the throne, and that's looking less and less likely. If John were to end up on the throne, he might support Gendry's claim, but I honestly don't see Jon ruling either. Maybe Sansa?

There are plenty of witnesses to Dany’s carnage without Arya, thank you.

And why do we really care that Arya chose living and has seen the light, in the greater scheme of things ?

Tyrion is my pick to rule if I were the writer

Because Arya is my favorite (surviving) character, R383. Don't give much of a fuck what happens to any of the others still living.

I'm still sad over Lyanna Mormont. THERE would have been a Queen worthy of the Iron Throne, bitches.

r379, are you forgetting her immolation of the Khals and walking out of the wooden temple naked?

My theory, Targaryens BECOME fireproof when they are bathed in dragon fire. Drogo's pyre and the hatching of the eggs meets the bill.

We know dragons can tell a Targaryen. I think that the death by dragon fire for Varys was simple plot device for Tyrion walking out of the flames (naked? are we going to see Dinklage butt?)

Makes no sense.

Dany doesn’t even like Westeros. She should’ve taken her dragons and headed back to Essos, where she’s Missa.

R385 Who gives a fuck who your favorite character is ?

Someone asked why we should care about Arya's plotline. I answered the question. Don't be a pissy little bitch, R389.

Arya went to KL to kill Cersei. Big FAIL

So Dany touches the iron Throne, dies and Drogon takes her North of the wall, which is where she found Drogo and their baby in the House of the Undying. She’ll walk into the tent and it will be over. A tale told by two idiots, full of sound & fury, signifying nothing.

Arya was plot device. Her only raison d'etre was to constantly pass out, pull herself out of dragon ash and witness what is happening on the ground at KL.

YOU ARE THERE!

So is it plot or character driven ?

R378

Her character was generally more fascinating and toxic and real before Tywin died. To me she seemed sublimely narcissistic and selfish to the point of harboring a passionate hate for most of her family and dismissive apathy for everyone else. Her hate for Tyrion and her need to strip him of his Lannister identity was a bigger motivation than any affection for Mycella. Also her 'love' for Jaime appeared to be more like satisfaction that he was so easily manipulated -- so the contempt she had for him also outweighed anything that might be mistaken for love.

In the books her self regard is more explicit but in the TV show it was only written into the story in the form of daddy issues because Tywin alone seemed to know that she thought she was much smarter than she really was. (IE her self regard was tied in to her need to impress him in the show, where in the books it is just her defining characteristic.) Once Tywin died, the show literally started to play out as if Cersei really was motivated by 'love' for her children -- but only because Tyrion once commented on it. The fight to gain control over Tommen and then eventually gain the throne for herself didn't even make sense if you though anything like regard for Tommen factored in to her decision making process. She was infatuated with her own cleverness and sprung one trap on herself after another. In terms of characterization I think it was fine for them to chose to handle her as if Tywin was more accurate about her than Tyrion. The books certainly followed that. But the "I only wanted our child to live' bullshit scene pretends that all this time we've been invested in her as Tyrion described her once. It was very unsatisfying.

D&D said they wanted to show what was going on at ground level from the pov of a character we knew and cared about- Arya. I have no problem with her being that character. We saw he being scared as shit amongst all the chaos, it was fine. Maybe one fewer explosion with her involved would've been good, but I thought it was fine to have her running scared.

R383 because we like Arya and don't want her to end up a miserable, angry, revenge driven person? We've known her from the start, she's done some pretty impressive things, she's not a complete moron, why wouldn't we want to see her living and maybe even enjoying life?

I hope her story ends with her leaving Westeros to explore new lands.

[quote]So is it plot or character driven ?

At this point, neither.

Arya is basically Hit-Girl. Nothing original to see here.

Like someone mentioned above, I couldn’t believe Qyburn and Cersei got nothing up their sleeves.

r394, it jumped the shark when it moved from character driven to plot/CGI/$ driven.

They were prepared for Dany and Drogon but plot armor allowed Drogon to be unbeatable.

How many GOT fans are reacting like this during this season?

Man r395, you summed up the Cersei character perfectly. Bravo.

After the great divide between book plot and non-book plot (season 5) it seemed like the writers really dumbed down or even completely misinterpreted the characters and their motivations. It’s like they went from three dimensional back to two. They couldn’t wrap their heads around a Cersei who was left bereft by the death of her father, the “betrayal” of Tyrion, and the slow desertion of Jaime so they just... didn’t deal with it. Instead decided to wrapped her character around the pillar of motherhood but then did very little onscreen to back it up.

In the books Arya and Tyrion both have a secret desire to ride dragons themselves. In the TV show, Tyrion's brave moment freeing the dragons is all we really see of this, while Arya had her proud moment describing female dragon riders to Tywin in Harrenhall. I'm guessing that it was important to GRRM for both characters to witness what 'dragon riding' really entailed before the story came to a close as a final deconstruction of all the fables of glory and power that have been picked apart in the series. Now that she has seen the receiving end of glorious dragon warfare, Arya is able to give up on her own childish 'warrior queen' dreams of riding a dragon and triumphing over her enemies. It wasn't a clear thing in the TV show, and Sandor's quest to kill his brother as a divine responsibility for the second to the last fire zombie to take out the maester zombie had more of an impact. But even Arya had her own fairy tale dreams from childhood that needed to be crushed with brutal reality. Sansa's pretty Princess dreams were slowly crushed and stomped on in a prolonged deconstruction of Romantic chivalry. Arya's Dragon-warrior dreams were less pronounced but still needed to be stomped.

R405 - how could the Hound's brother survive the "spike through the head" wound? He was actually in the process of taking it out when the Hound and him bit the dust over the edge. I thought that was pretty unbelievable. the Hound

This late in the game, any post that begins with In The Books, is quickly scrolled over.

If they are so concerned about Arya’s storyline, they should have brought back Nymeria, her direwolf

So, so many mistakes Dan and Dave made. I know they thought purely CGI wolves didn't look good, so they used real ones which turned out to be too expensive so they killed off most of the wolves, sidelined Ghost, and never followed the Nymeria storyline from the books. They should have just gone with pure CGI wolves so the Starks' connection to the wolves could be included. It's a big deal in the books. I'd have forgiven less than ideal looking wolves instead of erasing them like D&D did.

R406

Yeah -- The Mountain was definitely a new and unique form of zombie. The Hound is just one of the men resurrected by the God of Light which we might assume happens for a special reason. Beric's reason was to save Arya and inspire her to go in for the stealthy drop kill against the Night King. The Hound's purpose for coming back can be assumed to fulfill a different zombie destiny and destroy the Zombie mountain. (I think Jon is the last of the 'fire-god zombies' but I doubt he will drop dead once his destiny has been fulfilled.) The Mountain's reanimation mechanics are unique to him and it is a bit odd that Sander had to be there for him to die by fire -since the city was being incinerated, but I guess that was what was required.

In defense of Kit and Emilia, if you don't like their acting, blame it on the writing. Jon Snow has grown from a sulky whiny emo bitch into a guy who is still reserved and anxious but more confident and willing to step up. He's still as pussy whipped with Dany as he was with Ygritte and on top of that he isn't exactly Superman, considering his shitshow performance at the Battle of the Bastards and the Battle of Winterfell, and thankfully he knows it, even if all the people who worship him don't want to hear it. Dany's turn is much more the writing. Basically, since the show has started to bypass the books around season 6, the show has been on autopilot towards the end game (no more Pod/Brienne or Arya/Hound esque travel scenes, hello Dany flying from Dragonstone to beyond the wall in no time or Euron popping the fuck up with a billion ships out of nowhere).

Dany has definitely grown from the timid abused wallflower she was into a haughty narcissist but she still thinks shes doing what she does for the right reasons. The show has also slowly been toying with Dany having potential as an absolutist, "mad" leader even way back in Essos but her onset of negative traits like paranoia could have been written way better. Where the writing fails her is this lazy "shes a Targ so she could go mad" BS. Now mental illness certainly can be genetic but the why portray that as a Targ trait, when it's really an inbreeding thing (aka Joffrey)? Why fallback on "Targs are crazy" when being paranoid and power hungry are traits any leader could display (aka Stannis, Balon Greyjoy, and Cersei)?

It's so hilarious to read how many of the comments and predictions are so completely wrong! It displays an entire Kinsey scale of stupidity.

Also, the ridiculous fan faction theories are hilarious. Bran warging into a horse? Arya being dead because she's riding a white horse? What next, she invents heroin?

So silly.

R411 I hate the 'MadQueen' bullshit that D&D definitely wanted people to get from Dany sacking the city. Her decision to burn King's Landing makes rational sense in terms of what she has experienced in previous cities. Her last trusted advisor demanded it and it was probably a fair call. And even though Dany will end up getting killed by her nephew, her decision to burn down King's Landing and prepare to rule from Dragonstone, her family seat, makes more sense than accepting the bell as a workable surrender from the Lannisters. The few remaining Dothraki will roam the south and probably try to set up some form of Dothraki lifestyle raiding Dorne and tormenting the common people south of the Riverlands until they are wiped out. Drogon will probably turn out to only like eating humans which will require the Queen to need to procure a regular supply of men who need to be executed. A large viable city is something Dany has proven to herself she can not manage and she now knows from her experience with Varys that she can't give anyone else authority over such a powerful entity either. So cutting King's Landing down to size the way Winterfell and the north was destroyed by the Night King is a reasonable strategy even if she is thinking ahead about whether she will be able to rule.

Believing the bells had declared her victory complete and workable would have been a much more crazy option than going all Dresden on King's Landing.

Can’t wait to see finale next week. Who would dare to get rid of the Mad Queen?

Team Dany, and I've loathed her for about 3 seasons now. She absolutely needed to thoroughly CRUSH King's Landing and make a point that no one better fuck with her again. She tried being nice and a team player over, and over, and over again and she got (along with many others) thoroughly fucked by it.

I just wanted the Lanniesters - ALL of them - to die barbarically and horribly and we were robbed of that. No sympathy for Jamie or Cersei at all, and they got a much better ending than they deserved. Tyrion should have died in Mereen, or at least after his stupid delays caused the loss of her Reach, Iron Island, and Dornish allies. At the VERY least he deserved death for his moronic convince Cersei to help plot. He'll probably live, or get a noble death, but that's far better than he deserves.

Burn em all, I say, and start over. It's no longer *King's* Landing, and it's gone now.

I have no problem if Bran gets the throne or if Dany is killed by Jon. I will be thoroughly disgusted if Bronn gets anything or Tyrion lives, though.

^I doubt Jon (Aegon) would kill his aunt. Arya will, perhaps.

It'll be Jon.

Arya had her big kill.

Jon is Dany's lover/kin/loyal subject. It has to be him.

R415 After Dany is killed, Tyrion will probably give Bronn Highgarden. It won't really be his to give, but Bronn will probably get it anyway.

I was okay with Bronn until this season. Now I find him obnoxious and wouldn't be mad if he died. I don't like the thought of him getting Olenna Tyrell's home.

And where is Edmure Tully? I assumed he'd go back to Riverrun after Arya killed the Freys, but if the Lannisters controlled it, he's obviously not Lord there. I hope we get that question answered next week.

Bronn is pretty awful in the books, nothing more than a sellsword with no honor or loyalty. In the books, Catelyn Stark sees right through him and doesn't trust him at all. I sure hope he doesn't get Highgarden, but he just might.

And a place on the new council. I can't believe that at all. What could he possibly bring to the table? You said it- he has no loyalty or honor.

I hope that spoiler is fake.

I’m avoiding GoT spoilers until I see next week’s finale.

I’ll be so glad when I don’t have to hear about this incredibly overrated show any more.

Oh, you're forgetting about the sequels, prequels, and two more books.

Oh, right. You don't read books.

what are they gonna do with the books? will they make movies instead of tv show? is that what the fat cunt is doing?

He's been a bit distracted by all the awards shows, parties, hookers and blow.

Who the fuck is going to read two more books after seeing this trainwreck finale?

George RR Martin released chapters of Winds of Winter, so he's at least written part of the next book. I bet when he got behind, he wanted to see how the showrunners ended it to see how it went over with the fans. If he has half a brain, he'll veer in a bit of a different direction.

I'd read the two books just to see what the intelligent version of this looks like. Even before D&D ran out of book material, they were leaving out major plotlines and characters. I want to see the effects of the Greyscale pandemic, what's going on with Arianne Martell, the fate of Lady Stoneheart, if that dragon's horn works. Hell, I want to see if George Martin changes his mind (as he's done before) and goes with a somewhat different end--i.e. Dany lives, but disappears into the far East on the back of her dragon--and instead of a Night King, the existential threat is the return of a Dragon Queen.

Also, want to see Arya, Jon and Bran do some warging.

r427, the show’s decision to leave out Arianne Martell was DUMB! She’s a great character.

trust me, lots of people will read the final books.

[quote][R379], are you forgetting her immolation of the Khals and walking out of the wooden temple naked?

No, I'm not, because it's a show-only thing. I said on the show she is depicted as being fireproof all the time, but IN THE BOOKS, she only had once instance of being so (birth of the dragons). Martin has said neither she nor the other Targs are fireproof, it was just a one-off for her because of the blood magic. Nothing like the immolation of the khals has yet occurred in the books.

[quote]I’m avoiding GoT spoilers until I see next week’s finale.

So you're hanging out on the spoiler thread. Makes sense.

Fuck the books.

Fuck Martin.

Jaime’s hand

The showrunners clearly had a bad case of senioritis. They couldn't wait to be done with this and move onto other things. These last few shows have been downright sloppy in all ways: writing, direction and editing. If it was going to be like this they should have handed the show to others and walked away.

This season is the equivalent of me in college, final year, cranking out last few papers just trying to graduate and not giving a damn about the grades. I hope some other drama series wins the Emmy. GOT certainly doesn't deserve to for this slop.

They were very good at adapting the books and not so good at wrapping things up in a convincing manner once they strayed too far from the original material. It isn't surprising.

Jaime's hand was gold in the show. Who cares what it looked like in rehearsals or behind the scenes photos?

r435 that was live. Another Starbucks cup.

So does everyone believe the spoiler link that was posted up thread? I’m inclined to believe it because everything else they said was true. What a sucky end to the show.

The horse was a random Dothraki horse. There were several white horses in the charge. She's alive because there is NO afterlife. That was established.

The Hound never died and was never resurrected. Where the fuck did that come from?

Cersei said the Red Keep would never fall, and then it fell on her head.

Dany and Olenna were right she should have attacked KL right from the get go.

Loved this episode.

Ayra gonna be mommy or no?

I truly don't understand how so many people missed the fact that Varys and his little bird from the kitchens were trying to poison Dany. I mean, WTF did people think that scene was about? Are they too busy tweeting or sticking their fingers up their noses while they watch to actually listen to the dialogue? Varys already made it clear to Tyrion last episode that Dany would have to be killed in order to put Jon on the throne, but I guess people missed that too. It was no surprise at all that he was trying to knock her off.

And call Daenerys the mad queen all you want - everything she said to Jon when she begged him not to tell anyone that he's Aegon has proven correct. He lost control of it all the minute his sisters found out. Dany was begging for her life in that scene - she knew people would try to kill her to elevate Jon.

[quote]And call Daenerys the mad queen all you want - everything she said to Jon when she begged him not to tell anyone that he's Aegon has proven correct. He lost control of it all the minute his sisters found out. Dany was begging for her life in that scene - she knew people would try to kill her to elevate Jon.

But why did Varys want to kill her? Because he thought Dany was going to go MAAAADDDD!!!

And why did Sansa want Jon on the throne? Because she thought Dany was going to go MAAAAAAAD!!!

And what did Dany do? She went MAAAAAADDDD!!!

Dany had a choice between going after Cersei directly or attacking the helpless people on the ground and she chose to "burn them all." You know, the kind of people she would have helped a few seasons ago? The kind that weren't powerful enough alone to overthrow their rulers? She's not the only person who has lost people on this series. She chose to kill the women and children indiscriminately for zero logical reasons because she's ... MAAAAAADDD!!!

{r346} you woman hating queen, i LOVE Arya. My favorite.

Just like she went all Dresden with the carpet bombind, do not think it was because she went MAAAAAAAAAAAD.

Ruling fewer people takes less resources.

It was a shrewd management decision.

She could have fed the people of KL to her dragon instead.

Have we seen the dragons eat anyone alive? I can't remember.

R444 Who did the good guys(US and Britain) firebomb in Dresden and Hamburg? Nazi Germany who were the bad guys. The people who started the fucking war,killed millions of innocents AND put their own citizens in death camps to die. Cersei was a fucking murderous cunt. OF course, Dany went way too far BUT Dumb and Dumber should be more careful with WW II analogies. Stalin our friend killed millions(supposedly more than Hitler) of his own people yet he was on our side!

R442 If she listened to Lady Tyrell instead of the two useless fools, Tyrion and Varys, she could have taken King's Landing very easily without little or no civilian casualty. Tyrion has to be the worst fucking Hand of all time. In addition, the midget tried to help Cersei escape?! He deserves to be fried.

It's not remotely believable that Dany didn't just take Kings Landing when she arrived and saved herself all this frustration. If she just destroyed the red keep and the Iron fleets when she got there barely any civilians would have been hurt. Certainly far less than died in earlier wars of the series. Tyrion's bizarre assertion that there should be no loss of life in a CONQUEST was nonsensical from the start

Exactly.

Varys and Tyrion had some fantasy of just restoring the rightful Targ to the throne without a war but the actual 'Game of Thrones' is always war even when you try to dress it up with alliances and marriages. Giving Dany the dragons sealed her claim to power. Dany and Jon both have a claim, but Dany also has a dragon. For whatever reason Tyrion and Varys have been fighting for that dragon difference to not matter for over a season and it was out of character and nonsensical.

She should have flown in and melted the Red Keep with Cersei in it the moment she reached Westeros -- all Tyrion's advice did was destroy what remained of Westeros after Jaime, Tywin and Cersei had done their damage. The Lannisters were a much bigger blight on Westeros than the Night King and the dragons. Even with the city of King's Landing burned to a crisp (which should be on Cersei but she is never blamed for her failures) not listed as a Lannister achievement, they have been the number one blight.

R447 But innocent people were killed in the bombing of Germany just like in Kings Landing

No it wasn't r436.

I hope as they sift through all the bodies and the rubble, they find Bronn's partially burnt to a crisp carcass somewhere around the Red Keep. LOLOL!

Dude's probably at Highgarden moving all his shit in.

I hope that Davos ends up with Highgarden or as ambassador to Dorne where he can live out his life sipping Dornish wine.

Bronn didn't go south to fight Cersei, he stayed at Winterfell. He's getting Highgarden because dumb Tyrion promised it to him, so just get over it already.

Looks like we’ll probably see the bodies of Cersei and Jaime next ep. There’s a pic on Headey’s Instagram of the two of them looking like their getting prepped for facial prosthetics and CGI.

Who is Tyrion to give away Highgarden ?

[quote]Who is Tyrion to give away Highgarden ?

Do you even watch the show? He's the Hand of the Queen.

The last living Debt paying Lannister.

But the reality is the Lannisters always go back on their promises.

WAS the Hand of the Queen. I'm pretty sure he lost that position when he freed Jaime.

R459 Still he has no authority without the Queen’s permission

[quote]WAS the Hand of the Queen. I'm pretty sure he lost that position when he freed Jaime.

Nope. He freed Jamie ages before and still went into battle with his Hand pin. She didn't fire him. [quote] Still he has no authority without the Queen’s permission

You are truly just DUMB. As the Queen's Hand he is second only to her in terms of power and authority in Westeros. The Hand is the Queen's closest advisor, appointed and authorized to make decisions on behalf of the Queen's name. Now hush and go away.

Of course, Circe is in position to reward him for completing his task.

*no position

Such a moronic side plot.

Right on the money, R450. The rape of the Riverlands, the Field of Fire and sack of Highgarden, the starving of King's Landing, the Sept of Baelor, the pillage of Winterfell with the Bolton alliance, the loss of leadership in Casterly Rock... all Lannister doing. And they never should have gotten THAT far.

Maybe Bronn will assassinate Dany then get executed by Tyrion as his "payment." Now THAT would be a great plot twist.

R463 Nah Tyrion is not in the Queen’s good book anymore

Maybe Dany has no idea how Jaime got free. They were going to war. He was a prisoner in their camp not at Dragonstone. So when the mobilization and the action started who knows how he freed himself. They had no guards to spare. And with any luck the guards Tyrion told to get lost, got killed.

And Tyrion could make it seem like he was honoring the last request of his brother, if he was confronted. He did tell Jaime there was no way Dany would lose. There was no way Cersei would survive. Davos is the only loose link and he won't talk. He's the guy who provided the small escape boat. Jaime wanted to be with his sister for the end. Last request, etc.

R469

Nah. Tyrion freeing Jaime to save Cersei is NOT going to be lost on anyone. Bronn will probably be able to claim Highgarden with a bluff, however. Who is left to stop him?

I will miss the show. I do think they could have padded out the season to make a lot of shit better motivated and more doable. But I suspect the show runners extended themselves to their maximum capacity and could not begin to keep track of all the details beyond what they did even after giving themselves an extra year to complete the final season.

No way. Tyrion will go on trial as the spoilers have guessed for weeks now, but I think it will be Dany putting him on trial. If not trial, she'll throw him in a dungeon awaiting his fate. Based on the spoilers, she's going to go even more stark raving mad, executing anyone she thinks is disloyal. Then Jon or Arya likely takes her out. If they take her out, though, what about Grey Worm? He wouldn't sit idly by his queen's execution. The Dothraki are loyal to her, too. But knowing D&D, they'll ignore all that and just have Jon or Arya kill her and there will be no repercussions from Dany's loyal followers.

Putting Tyrion on trial is an improvement on going full Dracarys at will. Baby steps and all that.

Spoilers indicate she gets killed before Tyrion's trial don't they?

There are so many 'spoilers" out there as to render them all unbelievable.

As long as they don't go for a Merlin ending, which was ANOTHER rushed cancellation/ending, I'll be happy.

Merlin : "Arthur, I have magics !". Arthur : *dies*

It was awful.

See, that's what I find implausible. The Dothraki, and the Unsullied, particularly Grey Worm. If Jon or Arya succeed in killing Dany WTF would they do with them? They'd riot and there are not enough Northern soldiers to stop them.

IMO I don't see how Dany dies.I can see her trying to kill Jon, who self exiles to the North beyond the Wall. I can see her trying to go after Sansa and Arya, and Tyrion. That's why, and this is me speculating, if I were D&D I would have Bronn assassinate her at Tyrion's bidding, then the Dothraki and Unsullied kill Bronn.

Because there will be chaos. If episode 5 showed us nothing else it demonstrated what happens when a leader fails to lead, and ushers in chaos. That's what Dany did. The armies surrendered, she'd won, the bells rung and she went nuts, so her armies did too. Jon could no longer control anything. All he could do was shout an order to withdraw and who knows whether anyone listened.

Are we assuming that the series will end with all chaos resolved?

[quote]See, that's what I find implausible. The Dothraki, and the Unsullied, particularly Grey Worm. If Jon or Arya succeed in killing Dany WTF would they do with them? They'd riot and there are not enough Northern soldiers to stop them.

House slaves, all of 'em.

[quote]There are so many 'spoilers" out there as to render them all unbelievable.

No, there are two sets of spoilers out there that have been 100% on the money correct for the past two episodes. That’s reason enough to believe their info for episode 6 is right.

[quote]The Dothraki, and the Unsullied, particularly Grey Worm. If Jon or Arya succeed in killing Dany WTF would they do with them? They'd riot and there are not enough Northern soldiers to stop them.

You forgot Drogon. Now that's fucking scary. He's the only one left who loves Dany.

Going off the leaks:

Greyworm might simmer as soon as he realizes that getting violent revenge didn't really help how he felt about his love's death at all. The Unsullied still follow him, and he still believes in the better side of Daenerys's dream, so he fucks off to Essos to do this better. The Unsullied have no love for staying in Westeros and Westeros would rather not bloody things even further by challenging them. Unsure about the Dothraki, maybe they'll be similar in resettling the Dothraki Sea or will be handled more violently in the finale. I think the gist will be that Slaver's Bay will have all the same problems as before Daenerys, but she and others did accomplish enough change to make the region open to more substantial change. She shook things up and chaos let other figures and politics fill in spaces, but only in spaces.

Tyrion, Davos, Sam, and Bronn. Bronn has Highgarden indeed, or this is his allowed 2nd place in new politics? Tyrion has a 'death' scene but the secret of the filming is that he ends up being spared. Sam's house might be elevated or else he is just a trusted choice for the council (voted by nobles, not all citizens). The council is decided to be these people because they are either renowned influences on positive matters, or they've arisen to prominence and kings want to cater favor with them, or they're relatively harmless figures to keep the Crownlands in check. More a reconstructive force that will be occupied for years/decades than a power-base, but the influence of the region won't totally die easily.

Bran's story may still suck ass. If they decide on him because he's a weakling that can just provide insight to nudge things in relatively helpful directions, that's such a waste of character. Unless he's some secret Children of the Forest Revenge stuff. But technically he did 'stop' the Night King, and he did set up the 'stopping' of Daenerys, who may have very well become a secured (maybe less mad?) tyrant if he did and said nothing about Jon's heritage.

Perhaps what he was trying to stop was an apocalypse bigger than the Doom of Valyria? Without his words, Daenerys would have wrecked the Red Keep and may have faced opposition from all sides, while the Night King would have taken the North and headed south, and the squabbling South wouldn't have been enough as the masses of wights would have been a literal flood, and even 3 dragons not enough as they get speared one by one trying to attack an invincible-to-fire Night King. Or if only the Night King matter was handled and nothing about Jon, Daenerys would have still had a maybe slower-motion madness and still decided to wreck Westeros and worse than if Bran did nothing at all, but now there's no Jon to get close enough to stop her.

Is that what the showrunners were going for? Bran practicing 'acceleration-ism' to disallow terrible Ice and Fire forces from getting too much up on each other?

Further spoilers from leaker (my last 481 post was speculation): Daenerys won't literally be a dragon because I guess GOT will always keep somewhat low-fantasy but there will be a visual nod to her 'being' a dragon and seeming more dangerous. She gets close to the throne, it may get melted. Tyrion indeed gets back on a council. There may be another fight/battle involving 'faces of the dead' (undead? Faceless Men? Isle of Faces?).

Its still possible we get a relatively Bran-focused episode as it reveals what kinds of things he said with Sam, Tyrion, etc. They did this fakeout before, as part of the (annoying) out-Littlefingering-Littlefinger. Now Bran is out GreatOthering-GreatOther/darkness and keeping life continuing.

I've seen some spoilers that maybe Bran wargs into Drogon and attacks the Unsullied and the Dothraki, which (a) eliminates Drogon as a threat to Jon et al., and (b) eliminates those loyal to Dany as a threat. Still, because that would fill in a plot hole, I can't see it happening. Far more likely that the spoiler that says Drogon goes ape shit, burns down the throne, and carries dead Dany off with him without any repercussions to whoever killed Dany seems like the illogical plot-full-of-holes writing that D&D have done this season and for Season 7.

r482 If we see Jaqen's fine ass I will forgive everything.

Robert was king because he had Targaryean blood from relatives. The Tarths have Targaryean blood. So that's Gendry who has Baratheon and Targaryen blood, as does a potential child he has with Arya. Maybe Baby Starkeatheyen will be next in line to the throne after Bran or whomever.

There is the set of spoilers that was right about the last 2 episodes and then a lot of fan fic wishes.

The accurate so far spoilers say Jon kills Dany and Tyrion goes on trial. There is no discussion of anything logical like what happens to the Dothraki or WTF goes down with Drogon. So that seems like a very big hint that they do not really wrap up the story for shit in spite of this huge rush job to finish it off in a manner that might as well be unsatisfying as long as it is finished.

Killing Dany and letting Jon go back north doesn't really solve shit if the dragon is still alive.

Some tinfoil for ya: Ep 4 Inside episode had a few seconds of Littlefinger/Baelish music theme, Ep 5 had an extended part with Varys' execution with the same theme, and tell me that the Ep 6 promo sounds nothing at all like the theme?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyBPzUe3hNI

https://youtu.be/dt-RuKUQSvg

And a return of a certain quote:

https://youtu.be/IfCuarZqJzM

Sneaking in some 'faces' while fire and ice battle it out.

r486 We can only hope and pray

BTW, according to IMDB, all of the Starks (including Jon), Dany, Tyrion, Davos, Sam/Gilly, Gendry, Bronn, Greyworm and Brienne will be on.

Yeah - so far, none of the faux stories have really surfaced. The leak appears to have come from the more expensive part of the animation process where they didn't really have the budget to set up an alternative endings to throw off the lekers. All those fake scripts and keeping the cast in the dark, etc has only resulted in the show runners putting this together without the assistance of fresh eyes. Spoilers still leaked from post production.

OK so what do the 100% believe will happen in the finale?

I'm thinking not with a bang but whimpers...

Here's a thought - little Sam is one of Craster's incest babies. Better make sure another cycle of cray cray doesn't start with that one.

Don't the Dothraki follow whoever kills their current leader? Would they switch sides to Jon or would they have to think about it?

Bran is technically heir to Jon, who is technically heir to Dany, so when Dany dies and Jon steps out of the way, Bran is heir to the kingdom until he disclaims it or someone sticks a sword in him.

[quote]OK so what do the 100% believe will happen in the finale?

Jon kills Dany. There will be either be a trial or Great Council where we’ll see the surviving cast.

R451 Really? Who won the war Nazi Germany or The Allies? What The Germans had done to every occupied country was completely savage. Their occupations were brutal for such an educated people. The Germans devolved into barbarity. The Germans and The Japanese committed war crimes that were unprecedented in history.. They didn't give one fuck about inferior people they occupied,killed and brutalized. I'm not happy about what happened BUT what would have happened had the Germans and The Japanese had a nuclear bomb? Thank God the Allies got the and not the evil scum in Germany and Japan. They would have shown no mercy at all towards their victims.

The Bombing of Dresden is definitely being referred to in the last episode - not the whole of the war. It is probably as much a reference to Slaughterhouse-5 as anything.

R495 More like bombing of Baghdad, Cersei=Saddam all talk no action.

I remember a spoiler about Dany giving a big speech (in one of her other languages?) this season - and the shot of her among her assembled troops in the finale promo seems like it could be a set-up for that. Not content with the Hiroshima vibes of last episode, they are apparently going for full-on Hitler now...

R494 Two wrongs don’t make a right!

In modern days, Dany would be tried for war crimes

Harry Truman died in his bed at 92.

Everybody on this show has done something - or many things - that would be considered criminal in the real world. Sansa fed her husband to dogs. Arya killed a man's son, baked him in a pie and tried to get the father to eat it before slitting his throat...we could go on.

Tyrion kills Danayres. Drogon flames the midget.. Arya snufs the lizard. John walks away in disgust. Hail Queen Sansa and her hand Brandon. Starks win the Game.

R495 No not Slaughterhouse Five but the actual Dresden bombing itself. That influence was referenced in the episode 5 making of documentary by Weiss.

R500 Our ally Stalin killed more people than Hitler but died a natural death(he had a stroke) and was a hero to his people. Some Russians look back to those good old days. They were both evil but the enemy of my enemy is my friend according to Stalin.

So you are saying that there is a chance for Dany?

The only people Dany has effectively wiped out by genocidal violence and relocation is the Dothraki.

Dany has the most kills in GoT. Bloodthirsty bitch.

I can’t recall Tyrion killing anyone.

Tywin doesn’t count

He was always a good boy.

R508 Blackwater Bay, Davos' son.

Also, a few singletons protecting Cat and Missandei.

Tyrion orchestrated the use of fire during the battle of blackwater bay and killed all the men in Stannis' fleet.

[quote]I remember a spoiler about Dany giving a big speech (in one of her other languages?) this season - and the shot of her among her assembled troops in the finale promo seems like it could be a set-up for that.

Yeah, this is apparently when Tyrion removes his Hand pin and tosses it away in disgust. I have a feeling this will also involve the bodies of Cersei and Jaime maybe being strung up in public.

The Red Cross actually did a little pre-Season 8 war crimes list.

r509, how about Shae?

[quote]Everybody on this show has done something - or many things - that would be considered criminal in the real world. Sansa fed her husband to dogs. Arya killed a man's son, baked him in a pie and tried to get the father to eat it before slitting his throat...we could go on.

You mean child bride Sansa who was repeatedly raped by Ramsey (her husband ... oh wait, her second husband because she was already married to Tyrion) allowed Ramsey's own dogs to eat him after he murdered her little brother Rickon?

And Arya killed a man's sons and his family who themselves were part of a murder plot which ended up killing her brother, mother, sister-in-law and their unborn baby? She didn't, however, kill any of the women or children. She didn't see them as responsible for what happened to her family.

None of that compared to Dany intentionally killing innocent men, women, children just because she was in a mood. Just stop that comparison!

[quote]Everybody on this show has done something - or many things - that would be considered criminal in the real world.

A lot of the examples were justifiable even by modern standards (warfare, lawful execution, self-defense) but there’s only a single major character who never ended another human life on the show who is still alive, and that’s Gilly. They are a homicidal bunch.

R505 On this show no. B & W have now demonized Dany in such a short time that no further nuances are possible. She won't be redeemed but will be killed. The writers have scummy characters like Tyrion and Varys judge Dany yet how many people have suffered from their machinations?

The destruction of King's Landing reminded me more of early 400's AD, when the Visigoths invaded and were sacking Rome. It seemed like an homage to those old movies about the Fall of Rome, with a blend of volcanic action.

Which does not mean it was not an homage to Dresden. It could have been both.

Carpet bombing is carpet bombing even if you do it with or without elephants!

Personally, now that she knows that Jon is a Targ, I'd like to see Sansa kill Jon.

That will never happen.

None of the spoilers addresses what is going to happen to Drogon.

One has him flying away with Dany's corpse (which is a bit like the mythic end of Medea in some versions.) but that really isn't going to cut it for a clean ending.

Drogon needs to die.

So if Dany dies and Jon refuses to procreate further, will the only people with Targ blood be Gendry and Brienne?

Drogon fucks off to the ruins of Valyria.

When Dany dies Drogon will shatter leaving behind three stone eggs that Arya will hatch after miscarrying Gendry's spawn.

five more fucking days.

not months

not another year

five days and this worldwide clusterfuck will be over.

I will NEVER watch a sequel/prequel/Love Boat reunion episode

OVAH

R522, I just wrote the following on another GOT thread, but it lays out what I think will probably happen to Drogon and why. Not a spoiler because it's just a guess.

The book series is called a Song of Ice and Fire. At least in the books, and maybe the show, ice and fire are treated as two polar opposite but equally destructive forces threatening humanity. You have the Long Night in the Westeros past (i.e., the Others bringing seemingly endless winter and cold), as well as the Targaryen conquest with dragons (raining fire down on Westeros). The ice threat of the white walkers/Others has been dealt with. Now fire has to be eliminated as a threat. I see no other way than for Dany to be killed and probably Drogon taken out. The balance is restored, likely by Jon because he is a Stark representing winter and a Targaryen representing summer/fire, so Jon himself is a Song of Ice and Fire. My guess is that's why the last book title is going to be called a Dream of Spring because it gets to that balance.

I hope I'm wrong, though. I started watching GOT without knowing anything about the books, and I remained that way throughout the first season. When the first season ended with Dany hatching the three dragon eggs in the funeral pyre, I was totally and completely in for the duration. The dragons and direwolves are two of the coolest things about GOT. The show basically ruined the direwolves storyline. The dragons were a bit better. Viserion's death was really sad, but Rhaegal's death was so fucking stupid. Now with only one dragon, I'm kind of hoping Drogon flies off to Old Valyria and they show him with a clutch of dragon eggs. But since that would be cool, it won't happen. I suspect D&D are going to get rid of Drogon in an unsatisfying way. But again, I sure do hope I'm wrong.

This made me laugh

Finale:

[quote]Jon, Davos and Tyrion are walking through the aftermath of Kings Landing. Tyrion walks through what's left of the castle and sees Jaime's hand so he starts to uncover the rubble and he confirms both Cersei and Jaime are dead. They find Grey Worm and his men they have Lannister Soldiers trapped and they're about to kill them. Jon trys to tells Grey Worm to stop. Grey Worm tells Jon that its the queens orders. Then they cut to Dany giving a speech pretty much saying how she freed the people from Kings Landing and the new goal is freeing the rest of the world. Dany turns to Tyrion and tells him he committed treason. Tyrion tells her that she killed thousands of innocent people and he takes off the hands pin and throws it. Dany sends him to prison.

[quote]Jon goes to see her and she sitting on the Iron throne alone and John tells her that she needs to stop being a crazy bitch and that Grey Worm killed the Lannisters army from the previous scene. Dany tells Jon that she's doing it for the people. Jon pretends to understand and tricks her. When her guard is down he stabs her. Drogon comes and is standing over her body and he burns or melts the Iron throne and carries her away.

[quote]Grey Worm has Tyrion and Jon as his prisoners. The *council is (led by Sansa) tells Grey Worm to release Jon back to them but he refuses. That's when Tyrion says that the new King or Queen should decide what happens to Jon. Sam suggest for a democratic vote for the new king. Tyrion calls that idea stupid. The council votes and decide Bran Should be the King. Bran picks Tyrion as his hand.

[quote]Tyrion tells Jon that his punishment is going back to the wall and join the Knights Watch. Grey Worm accepts Jons punishment. He doesn't bend the knee leaves with his troops and Dothraki on ships to go free Slave cities. They show Tyrion leading the council. Jon says goodbye to Sansa and Arya. Arya tells them she isn't going back home. She's going to explore whatever is west of Westeros because that's where no one has been.

[quote]The final scene is a Closing montage. You see Arya on a ship, Sansa ruling Winterfell and Jon doesnt stay at the wall he reunites with Tormund and Ghost.

[quote]Council Members: Samwell Tarly the Grand Maester, Davos Seaworth Master of ships, Bronn Master of Coin and High Garden, Brienne (not sure) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Yara Greyjoy Lord of Iron Islands, Robin Arryn Lord of Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale, Gendry Baratheon Lord of Storm's End, Yohn Royce Lord of Runestone, Hound doesn't get mentioned., Podrick is wheeling around Bran and he protects him.

[quote]Ellaria Sand doesn't get mentioned (i asked because she's alive). Sam mentions that they seen Drogon in some location but aren't sure. Bran just says, "ill look for him" They don't have a Master of Laws and Whisperers. Tyrion is looking for the right people to fill those spots. They don't clarify what Bran did when he was in warg during The Long Night. Did i forget to mention the most important detail about this entire episode? our good boy gets a pat from Jon.

"Bronn Master of Coin and High Garden"

Kill me now.

Ellaria Sand is alive? Total bullshit. If she wasn't dead, she's certainly roadkill after episode 5--just like Jaime and Cersei.

This poster apparently had correct info on episode 5 and a lot of this matches the other verified leakers. Take it as you will.

Sounds like an noncommittal ending that leaves open for sequelizing. After 1-2 other show premieres and an audience losing some character attachment. Anything big that really ended was the immediate threat of Long Night and the decades (centuries) central squabbling over an Iron Throne.

Wasn't there supposed to be a third holy shit moment in "Game of Thrones" in the finale? The first one was the burning of Shireen, then the second was how Hodor became Hodor and the third is supposedly in the finale. Is it Dany's murder at the hands of Jon Snow? Not really a holy shit moment.

I'd say that counts

Brienne is never getting laid again. Shame.

But I'm glad she's not pregnant! That would be messed up.

Thank goodness! How awful that would be. I hope Brienne has absolutely no reaction whatsoever to Jaime's death and looks happy as if nothing ever happened.

[quote]Is it Dany's murder at the hands of Jon Snow? Not really a holy shit moment.

Maybe no to die hard favs especially ones thatvread leaks but it will be for most of the general audience.

I hope we get to see Dany reunited with Khal Drogo and her stillborn son in the afterlife.

R529...wow, what an bitterly disappointing ending to this story.

Pretty much every character's intelligence and development had to be butchered to end their arcs there.

Most of all Dany. I don't think I've seen a character so eviscerated before. I honestly am quite shocked that GRRM ultimately had this end in mind for his heroine.

Shame! Shame! Shame!

Yes but remember r541, we’re seeing two entire books worth of plot being shoved into three tv episodes.

Now we know why Tyrion complementing Bran about his new chair made it in- that chair is the new Iron Throne!

And Bran was staring at Tyrion because he knew he'd end up as his hand, or at least be important to him.

I'm glad Davos makes it out alive and well. But a little sad the Starks separate- Jon turns Wildling, Sansa is in Winterfell, Arya is wandering the earth, and Bran is in King's Landing. I wonder if any known characters are going to stay at Winterfell with Sansa?

That's not true. The books ended with Jon's death and the fate of Stannis unclear. At most one book has been covered by these last three episodes. Making a three hour movie out of one book is not uncommon at all. Although by GOT standards that is a crazy short amount of time. 12-15 hours per book has been the pace until this season.

Bran as the king is a spectacularly dull ending for this saga. It also totally ignores the fact that he can neither have children nor lead men in battle - meaning it's just a matter of time before succession becomes an issue, and shit starts all over again. In the books, Ned tells Arya that Bran would have been a bannerman of Robb's prior to his accident, and would have been given his own castle. But once he's crippled, that's no longer going to happen, for the reasons above. So how the hell can he be king?

The idea of Bronn on any kind of people's council is a joke. That's pure D&D. It's also pretty sad that Jon kills Dany and that's it. She never gets mentioned again, just nothing.

It's Lost all over again.

No, it fits. Jon IS the Prince Who Was Promised after all. He kills his lover to end the darkness, it was the lover who was the darkness.

Just imagine Drogon entering the throne room through the shattered roof, firing the iron throne into a molten lump and then flying off with dead Dany. Think about the fabulous music.

Bran will be the segue from a monarchy to a parliament.

Anyone who thought this going to end happily is a child. .

OK so it's a bullshit ending where all the characters the audience cares about survive, we're prepped for the future sequels and movies you know are coming, and Peter Dinklage will still be playing Tyrion when he's 60.

Bring it on, I'm ready.

[quote]Bring it on, I'm ready.

This is the bloated type of show that would have ended up a Love Boat reunion.

Kitt and Amelia, happy at last...

Yes, they're definitely paving the way for sequels. Hopefully, someone else--not D&D will do the writing honors.

Jon should not be prosecuted for killing Dany if that's what happens. He is the legal heir to the throne. His claim takes precedence over hers. So if he decides to walk away and go North, it will not be because he is forced. He will go North voluntarily because he had to kill someone he loved, and he doesn't want to profit from her death. That's how I See it. And I think after a decent interval of mourning he will come back. Bran seems like a temporary fix. I also don't see Arya leaving to explore. I think all the chaos has settled her. I think she might want stability after what she has seen and gone through. Jon will hang with Tormund, who will probably talk him into going back. Sansa will be the winner. But I am uneasy about Greyworm, the Dothraki and the dragon. They will not take kindly to Dany's death. Not. At. All.

I figured the finale would be shit and would continue the plot holes we've seen for two seasons due to the rush to wrap this up. I think R529's version is probably right for the most part. The Unsullied and the Dothraki just leave Westeros and defer to some council? Makes no sense. Check! Drogon loses his mother and he doesn't barbecue her killer or lay further waste to Westeros in his rage, he just burns a throne? Makes no sense. Check! Bronn the disloyal sellsword as Master of Coin and Lord of Highgarden? Makes no sense. Check!

A few things make sense. Sansa as warden of the North. She's already basically doing that job. Arya going off exploring somewhat makes sense, although you'd think someone who has had as much adventure as her already might want a bit of a calmer existence, especially since the Hound convinced her to choose living over and obsession with revenge.

R546, I think the leak is saying a small council will choose the king from now on, so succession is not an issue. Therefore, Bran can sit on the throne. When Bran's time is up, the council will choose the next leader. Bran is likely to see through anyone's machinations since he's the Three Eyed Raven, so there will be no more Littlefingers and Varyses plotting behind the scenes because Bran sees all.

Oh well, at least Jon pets Ghost.

^over AN obsession with revenge

Little Sam will take over for Bran as King/President/Ruler whatever

I think D&D effectively killed GOT as a franchise.

I also think they had a hand in stopping GRRM from working on the books.

I don't think they meant to do this, but they got overconfident when their fan-fic approach to the first books (replacing descriptions of feasts with sexposition) went over so brilliantly. They thought they were bringing more to the table than they were and when they realized they weren't they went for a scorched earth exit strategy.

I would love it if GRRM published the last two books all at once when this thing finishes and it turns out Jon stays dead and Lady Frikkin Stoneheart is the real big bad and Tyrion ends up being the Targaryan who burns King's Landing from the back of his own dragon.

I prefer the spoilers that had Tyrion as the real big betrayer. Having Bran bust on him for the deal Tyrion made with Cersei to intentionally make Daenerys snap, Sansa betraying Tyrion to rid that world of the last Lannister (Starks getting the last laugh) and having Tyrion executed would make a far better ending. What happened to that spoiler? Wasn't from the same spoiler post that predicted "The Bells" correctly?

No, R556, I think those spoilers were linked at R55, and said only that Tyrion will be put on trial for releasing Jaime, which we can all see coming.

I've always liked the idea that Tyrion has been betraying and subverting Dany all along by giving her bad advice, but it doesn't look like that's happening.

From a dynastic perspective, the best thing would be if Gendry and Sansa made a political marriage and produced an heir who is the reigning King's nephew AND has Baratheon, Targareyen, and Stark blood. Succession crisis solved.

The above ending assumes the King Bran story is true.

It's very kind of Grey Worm to not kill Jon right away after murdering the Queen, and to allow Jon to live for the weeks it must have taken for Sansa to travel South to King's Landing.

It sounds like Tyrion is the king in everything but name. What a boring ending.

I feel bad for the author. I have no reason to doubt that he intends Bran to sit on the throne, and I would wager that most people aren't going to like his ending.

The prequel is already filming.

Problem with the sequel, is that I've gotten used to the actors we have. I thought they did a great job, flawless really, in casting these young, mostly unknown actors like Isaac Hempstead Wright, Maisie Williams, Sophie Turner, Kit Harington, Richard Madden, Emilia Clark. Yes Alfie Allen and Rory McCann have done some work but they weren't famous. Ian Glen, Stephen Dillane, Liam Cunningham, Nicolaj Coster Waldau, Lena Heady, Conleth Hill, Aidan GIllen, Michele Fairley, Pedro Pascal, were established but not famous A listers. Actually Sean Bean was the most famous actor of them all and he was only in the first season. And Diana Rigg. No one ever heard of Carice Van Houten. But that cast grew on me. They owned those characters. Now they are starting the Prequel, and they cast Naomi Watts? Really? She's a great actress, but I don't get it. In fact, it's going to take a while to get used to a new cast.

R563, the prequel will be set about 10,000 years before the beginning of GoT. The Night King May be around, but that’s about it.

Does anyone know when this fucking nonsense will ever end???

Probably when you change the channel r565.

When the North Country falls to the Romulans and the Coblet Of Firepiss is returned to Mordor by Queen Fiona.

If Dany had given birth to a Klingon baby at the end, that would have been fun.

OK, it ends with Dany telling Jon she's pregnant, and instead of killing her, they ride off together on her dragon, and Tyrion is the Ruler and Sansa marries him again, and Arya goes to Storm's End and Marries Gendry, and Brienne is pregnant with Jaime's bastard. Podrick and Sansa are having an affair, so he poisons Tyrion.Tyrion dies and Podrick becomes King. Brienne kills Bronn for the hell of it. Tyrion has him killed because he doesn't like being punched in the face.

I can’t believe after all the ham-fisted mentions of Dany’s barren vag last season that she didn’t turn out to be pregnant.

I would be so fucking stoked if they did do something that contradicted the too accurate spoiler. Even if what they did was stupid.

R570, I remember back in 2016 when we had those detailed leaks for season 7, the otherwise accurate info included a description of a scene where Cersei wakes up bleeding and is having a miscarriage. When season 7 unfolded without that happening, everyone thought it had probably been bumped into this season. Well, Cersei's dead and she never miscarried, but they were obviously planning to do it and then chose to scrap it. I bring it up because it's proof that they do dump things at the last minute. They were so blatant in the foreshadowing of a Dany pregnancy last season that I agree they were planning on it and then bailed. Probably because if Jon kills a woman who's pregnant with his child, that would be a bridge too far for a lot of people.

Jamie Campbell Bower is in the sequel. He was fired from the GOT pilot along with Jennifer Ehle. I loathe him.

I think it is safe to say that Cersei has miscarried at this point.

Yes I don't imagine we'll see Jamie and Cersei's foetus being pulled from the rubble.

How long was Cersei supposed to be pregnant? She never showed.

Women show between three and five months, R576; if a woman is thin, she usually won’t show until about five months. At least that’s what I’ve observed.

What was the point of the Cersei pregnancy, particularly when it was obvious she was going to die?

Wondering group consensus on how much work some of these actors will get after GOT? The Dane will get some work, and of course the midget, and all the older english irish actors, BUT Ayra? Man she is hard to look at, and Jon Snow? Maybe gay porn., Alfie will get plenty of work, and Euron also, was shocked to find out he was the hunter cop in Ghost Without A Shell.

Alfie Allen is a fine actor, I'd love to see him again in other roles. Maisie Williams still looks like a toodler, so I'm guessing voice-work is all she'll get. Emilia Clarke is a terrible actress and she'll be better off enjoying her money before that brain condition of hers worsens. Kit had his chance with Dolan film but it was shit and no one cared about it, he never showed any real acting chops and the writing in this season has only made it clearer.

R580 agree. I also expect Tormund to get some work, and the assassin with no face.

Maisie and Sophie should do Girl Power comedy action movies!

[quote]BUT Ayra? Man she is hard to look at,

British television will eat her up and she'll be on television forever. Until she becomes Dr. Who in 2029 she'll be the lovable police woman in a small village full of eccentrics, or the lovable doctor in a small village full of eccentrics, or the lovable vicar in a small village full of eccentrics, or, well, you get my point.

That's assuming she doesn't do a Lindsay Lohan on us. I've gotten a vibe from some of her interviews that she might like the party scene a bit more than is healthy.

Sophie Turner is the breakout star with good reason: conventionally attractive, decent actress, and markets herself relentlessly.

Maisie does have the perfect British TV face, quirky cute, slightly alien.

They are English and Irish which means of course they will get work. The girls will do a little bit of big budget work while they can and then go back into some sort of challenging theater projects (which they will be really good at) before teaming up with someone else from GOT for some sort of comfy british sit-com or brutally bleak Euro-murder series.

The real shocker is that Maisey will probably be the one to have a hit single at some point in the near future.

Maisie and Sophie both have their own production companies. Presumably they'll be producing their own smaller movies.

You know this final season is obviously controversial, and not without it's critics. all this petition signing, etc. But one thing is clear. The fans are pissed off at Benioff and Weiss, not the actors. The criticism has been entirely focused on the writers, and some to HBO and GRRM. But the actors are loved. So I think most of them will do very well. It will be interesting to see what becomes of the younger ones five years out from now.

Personally I believe Gleeson, who played Joffrey, and Isaac Hempstead Wright who plays Bran will have the most difficult time sustaining a career. The rest will survive and do well.

Didn't Gleeson quit acting?

[quote] Sophie Turner is the breakout star with good reason: conventionally attractive, decent actress, and markets herself relentlessly.

Bearding for the gayest Jonas brother. She is a very ambitious young woman.

Yeah, Gleeson quit acting.

r580, I truly believe that Alfie Allen is one of the top acting MVPs for Game of Thrones. Think about the trajectory of his character from the first season to his death; partial isolation as the "Start ward", cockiness, cruelty, downfall, brutally tortured, slow but steady healing and full redemption. Alfie acted all of that beautifully. He could do so much with his face. His final scene facing death and being fully forgiven by Bran brought me to tears. I would love to think that Alfie would be one of the actors considered for award recognition but unfortunately he'll probably be pushed aside and forgotten because of certain award recognition for Peter Dinkledge (not his best season), Lena Hedley (the other GoT acting MVP), Sophie Turner, and in my opinion the far less deserving Kit Harrington and partially deserving Emilia Clarke. I do give her props for the last episode. That was some of her best work.

r590, I shuddered when I found out Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas was getting married. The rumours about that closet queen have been rampant for years. I hope Sophie knows what she's getting herself into to or maybe it's a mutually agreed to beard situation. There are rumours about Sophie being of the, how should I say, sapphic nature herself. I did find it interesting that Sophie was nowhere to be found when the Jonas Brothers were the musical guest on last Saturday's SNL. It would've been a thrill if she made an appearance on SNL that night.

Sophie Turner has a grating speaking voice and little charisma despite her beauty. Once her looks and the aura of being involved in GOT fade a bit, she's done.

Maisie Williams is a much better actress but unfortunately has the sort of looks that are better suited to British TV. In her later years she'll be like a Geraldine McEwan type, a wizened old character actress...

Who was Varys writing to ?

He was writing the truth about Jon Snow on narrow strips of parchment, to be sent across Westeros on ravens, broadcasting it.

Would it have been better for Jaime to kill Cersei ?

It would have been better for Cersei to be killed in some sort of horrifically inventive way befitting all the misery she's inflicted on others...rather than by the fucking ROOF, with Jaime by her side to comfort her.

SMH.

Listening to the books. Wow they're so different from the show.

‘Game Of Thrones’ Storyboards Show Hodor Among The Night King’s Army In Season 7 Episode

Don't care about the books.

It took a while, but I really do not care about the TV show.

It's like chemotherapy now, I just want it over.