THEATRE GOSSIP #339: Jerry (Herman, that is) Liked Her Corn!

Fabulous, thank you, OP!

For people who have seen 'The Ferryman', will the replacement cast be able to fill the roles?

wasn't the whole point that people thought Carol's name should have been in thread title? You had one job, OP!!!!

The whole point was honoring Carol, and this thread does it nicely. Thanks to the OP. And nice to get away from that turd pile that the other thread turned into.

[quote]Who's playing the leads in Encores' I Married an Angel?

When the season was announced, they said I Married an Angel "will be directed and choreographed by Joshua Bergasse for his soon-to-be wife, New York City Ballet star Sara Mearns." So she's playing the Vera Zorina part, the Angel. I don't think they've announced any other casting yet. I hope they get a good Vivienne Segal. I'd love it if they'd offer that role to Rebecca Luker.

Yes, thanks to the OP.

Has the cast for "Marie" (the renamed "Little Dancer") at 5th Avenue in Seattle been announced? Rebecca Luker did it in DC, but that version was a big bomb and I don't know if it's using any of the DC cast.

I'm usually skeptical about Theatre Gossip threads with duplicate numbers but maybe if we keep it hush-hush, we can have a bit of fun here until it's time for #340.

r9 Even 5th Avenue's site doesn't say yet. I believe Tiler Peck remained involved even after DC but I don't know in what capacity.

Tiler Peck is no longer little enough to be the Little Dancer.

And, while I love Rebecca Luker, she's not really the right type to play the wisecracking Peggy in I Married an Angel. True, the character sings the lovely Spring Is Here, which she would do briliantly.

Tiler Peck is definitely still with Little Dancer/Marie.

R4: Yes, the replacement cast for Ferryman will be fine. The play is so strong.

r11 Maybe that's why it's no longer called Little Dancer. 😜

Apropos of absolutely nothing, here is Barbara Cook singing You Could Drive a Person Crazy. I love how she punches into some notes and how high she takes her chest voice. ("...so a person could be HAAAAAD!") She gets laughs on lines that I'm sure most everyone in the audience already knows.

She went to Bennington College Vermont.

carol/Bennington

Season premiere is February 20.

Who wrote the music to Cheno's Tammy Faye musical? Did anyone on datalounge hear the reading?

I went ahead and googled.

Henry Krieger.

They should get Bernadette to play the elder-Tammy and let Amy Sedaris play her at her weepey, money-grubbing, fraudulent peak - like they have a gaggle of Elphaba's playing Cher.

Tammy Faye and her 'drag queens love me' comeback NEVER did a thing for gays or people suffering from HIV. She DID legitimize the Pat Robertsons -- why else did Cheno blithely think she should do the 700 Club to push her own Christian album. The whole thing is such total cringe.

[quote]Who wrote the music to Cheno's Tammy Faye musical?

It shoulda been Kathie Lee. She has experience writing musicals about religious nutjobs.

[quote]Rebecca Luker, she's not really the right type to play the wisecracking Peggy in I Married an Angel

She might surprise you. In real life, she’s sassy and funny, and I’ve heard her be both in cabaret and concert situations.

Whoever they get needs to not only be able to handle Peggy’s wisecracks, but also be a true legit soprano who can handle not only “Spring is Here” but Peggy’s song of seduction to Harry, “I’ll Tell the Man in the Street.” Phyllis Newman did it for New Amsterdam in the mid-80s. Her acting was spot on, her singing less so.

Just listened to Rebecca Luker sing I'll Tell the Man in the Street and.....WOW! just brilliant!

I was the naysayer above who said she wasn't the right type but I'd love to see her play Peggy.

And I've always loved her singing. I've never understood how Kelli O'Hara got all the attention.

Dear R26. The clip you posted, I fear, has left me permanently impotent.

r29 That's gorgeous. So is this, by the way.

Wow. That Merman footage is hilarious and full-throttle Ethel.

r32 It's Mimi from The Drew Carey Show.

Rebecca Luker. There’s a surefire way to perk up a lame thread.

r35 Sure, because your posts about tampons, diarrhea and onstage shitting set the other #339 thread on fire.

I love Ethel's vinyl Go-Go boots! And what do you suppose she had on underneath that pink satin rain coat?

Which bway stars could sell out a show just by starring in it nowadays?

[quote]And what do you suppose she had on underneath that pink satin rain coat?

I volunteer to find out!

Be my guest, Jackie. I can assure you, you're the only person in the world who has an interest in what's underneath Ethel Merman's clothes.

Definitely Nathan Lane.

And maybe Matthew Broderick though god knows why.

Put Patti and Bernadette together into a show and it would sell out, certainly for several months. Bernadette sold out Dolly for a couple of months.

Carol Channing.

[quote]And what do you suppose she had on underneath that pink satin rain coat?

[quote]Definitely Nathan Lane.

[quote]And maybe Matthew Broderick though god knows why.

🦊👍

Christ, the other theatre thread #339 is still going on and on about non-traditional casting, complete with painfully unfunny jokes. Give it a rest already.

That thread is a toxic cesspool. I mean, far beyond the usual toxic cesspools that these threads become. And we know who’s to blame.

R46 Who Rose?

How many theatre spaces are we going to lose in 2019? Rumors and hearsay continue to circulate about this one or that one.

Do some of the downtown for rent spaces really do enough business to remain as theatres?

Meanwhile, the original Thread 339 is wrapping up with more racist remarks.

However I ended it with BAJOUR

Thank you, R50.

One of Barbra's greatest recordings.

That other thread was a disaster, and its OP was a total asshole.

Barbra recorded Bajour?

Yes, Barbra released “Barbra Sings the Hits From Bajour and I Had a Ball” in January 1965.

Did Bajour have any good songs that could be pulled from context and released in a pop album? Barbra did record work with Walter Marks on The Singer...

R56 Barbra could have done any of Chita's songs (Mean, Love Line) or some of Nancy's (Where is the Tribe for Me, Love is a Chance, Must It Be Love)--it's actually a pretty good score. Does anyone know how bad the book was? Or was it just a kind of "okay" show in a time when there were some blockbusters.

"I Had a Ball" only comes to life when Karen Morrow belts--and even then, the title song is the only one that really has a pulse.

On her early albums Barbra occasionally sang songs from recent musical flops like The Yearling and Drat! The Cat! (which, of course, starred hubby Elliott Gould). I think a couple of other shows were represented, too, though spacing on them right now.

Review of Cate Blanchett's new play in London:

Audra McDonald and Michael Shannon ARE Frankie and Johnny!

[quote]Do I smell TONY?

For a non-singing role? I don't think it's a shoo-in.

Will Michael Shannon put a creepy spin on Johnny? Not that Broadway is begging for that interpretation, but he's the guy to do it!

Michael Shannon looks like he has a big dick. I guess he wants to show it off.

Those two won't be totally nude, will they? Yuck.

Shannon has gone full frontal before, so I imagine he’s game. Audra would be a surprise.

Where did Shannon go full frontal? In a play or a film?

Looks like it might be thick, but not long at all.

R66, The Wooster Group production of Sweeney Todd?

I wish posters would finish off this theater thread. No. 340 is turning toxic already.

and whatever happened to this

Per the London Company Instagram account, their cast album drops 1 Feb.

This is the Theatre Thread nobody loves.......

On Oct 11, a poster on a theater thread predicted the possible Tony nominees for musical and play. Is he still somewhat accurate? Of course it's too early to tell, but this thread sucks:

The Prom

Ain’t too proud to beg

Hadetown?

Tootsie ?

Play

1)The Ferryman

2) Network

3) To Kill A Mockingbird

4) Choir boy

5) American Son

6) and/or Gary Titus –Taylor Mac Play

7) Hillary and Bill

Michael Shannon's dick is about 1 1/2" in that pic. With enough bush for four guys. Bleeccccch.

I think Barbra was considered as the lead in BAJOUR for a time. Also Carol Burnett. Of course, other shows came along for both of them. I'd love to hear BS sing "Love is a Chance" with its sparkling Mort Lindsey arrangement. Both BAJOUR and I HAD A BALL are wonderful guilty pleasures. The only time I had a chance to chat with Jerry Herman he expressed great admiration for the latter score.

[quote]McDonald is the winner of a record-breaking six Tony Awards, two Grammy Awards, and an Emmy Award.

Why the hell is she hanging around NYC? She won't get an Oscar unless she's going for movies. And with the Oscars going all social-justice "Oscar So White" they would give Audra an Oscar for anything and they'd love to have another black EGOT. (Actually, Whoopi Goldberg is the only black actress EGOT and hers doesn't officially count because her Emmy is a daytime Emmy. But on the other hand, Audra's Emmy is a "shared" Emmy, but a Primetime one).

Audra already tried LA. She had TV success, but not much in films. I don’t think she liked it much.

[quote]I think Barbra was considered as the lead in BAJOUR for a time. Also Carol Burnett

That was while it was being written. Both Burnett never would have been available - she was committed to A Girl to Remember by late ‘62, delayed only by her pregnancy. And Babs was announced for FG by spring ‘63. BAJOUR didn’t start casting till spring 1964.

I thought the male lead sings Spring is Here one of Rodgers and Hart's most beautiful songs with Hart's especially heartbreaking lyrics when you know about the personal unhappiness he suffered throughout his life.

At least it was sung that way when Musicals Tonight did I Married an Angel many years ago when they were still on 14th Street. The male lead gave one of the best renditions of the song I've heard. I went to see it twice as it's a wonderful show if done well.

Problem is the highlight of the original production was Balanchine's take off on a Radio City stage show which was supposed to have been quite wonderful and of course is lost forever. The song is 'At the Roxy Music Hall' which Ben Vereen did in a TV variety special on the Music Hall's history.

For R9 and R10:

Principal Casting Announced: Tiler Peck, Terrence Mann, Karen Ziemba, Louise Pitre, Dee Hoty, Jenny Powers, and More to Star in Marie: A New Musical at The 5th Avenue Theatre

March 22 – April 14, 2019

Book and Lyrics by Lynn Ahrens

Music by Stephen Flaherty

Directed and Choreographed by Susan Stroman

(Tuesday, January 22, 2019—SEATTLE) Broadway visionaries meet ballet royalty at The 5th Avenue Theatre this spring in Marie: A New Musical. Tony Award-winning authors Lynn Ahrens and Stephen Flaherty (Ragtime, Once On This Island), five-time Tony Award-winning director and choreographer Susan Stroman (The Producers, Contact), and acclaimed New York City Ballet principal dancer Tiler Peck invite you backstage into 19th-century Paris, where glittering opulence hobnobbed with underworld dangers. Marie was formerly titled Little Dancer in a previous production that played at The Kennedy Center in 2015.

Joining Peck are Tony Award-nominated actors Terrence Mann (Broadway Original Casts: Javert in Les Misérables, Beast in the Beauty and the Beast, Rum Tum Tugger in Cats) as Edgar Degas, Louise Pitre (Broadway: Mamma Mia!) as Adult Marie, Dee Hoty (Broadway: Footloose, Bye Bye Birdie) as Mary Cassat, Tony-winning actress Karen Ziemba (Broadway: Contact, Bullets Over Broadway, 42nd Street) as Martine Van Goethem, and Jenny Powers (Broadway: Grease, Little Women) as Antoinette Van Goethem. Kyle Harris (National Tour: West Side Story), who originated the role of Christian at The Kennedy Center, will also return. Christopher Gurr (Broadway: Spamalot, Tuck Everlasting, All the Way) joins the cast as Corbeil and Degas Understudy, with Noelle Hogan (Off-Broadway: The Runaways; National Tour: Fun Home) as Charlotte Van Goethem.

Directed and choreographed by five-time Tony Award winner Susan Stroman (The Producers, The Scottsboro Boys), Marie features a book and lyrics by Tony Award winner Lynn Ahrens (Ragtime, Once On This Island) and music by Tony Award winner Stephen Flaherty (Ragtime, Once On This Island).

The creative team includes Beowulf Boritt (scenic design), William Ivey Long (costume design), Ken Billington (lighting design), Kai Harada (sound design), Benjamin Pearcy (projection design), and Paul Huntley (hair and wig design).

Hell must be being attached to a mediocre creation like Little Dancer (or Marie or whatever you want to call it) because of a no longer useful attachment to Stro and having to go to places like 5th Ave. in Seattle and pretend you love what you're doing.

[quote]I thought the male lead sings Spring is Here

No - Willy and Peggy Palaffi both sing it (Peggy is the Vivienne Segal role, the characters are brother and sister). They are both going through some romantic disharmony at that point, Peggy with her old fling Harry Szigetti, and Willy with the Angel.

I think that's why they hired Bergasse to direct/choreograph and his wife to be the Angel - so he could create new dances. But "Roxy Music Hall" was only the second act dance highlight. The first act was the honeymoon ballet. I'm pretty sure when New Amsterdam did in in 1986 (Kurt Peterson and Phyllis Newman were Willy and Peggy, Virginia Seidel was the Angel), they played some of the music for the Honeymoon Ballet. For the Roxy number, which DL fave Karen Ziemba performed, they turned the whole thing into a tap routine. But I wasn't aware that it was lost. There were certainly very detailed descriptions of it in reviews and the script, and I would think Balanchine would have had it dance notated, especially since Zorina only did a couple of stops on the long post-Broadway tour before she moved on to "Louisiana Purchase.")

[quote]Michael Shannon's dick is about 1 1/2" in that pic.

He's a grower!!! Fully hard, it's ten thick inches.

Thread #340 is rehashing the subject of non-traditional casting.

It’s because the Loon started it. He’s a loathsome Trumpian and a racist.

Yeah, a post from a little while ago had Loon written all over it. He's truly despicable.

I don't even think Slaughter on Tenth Avenue his most successful Broadway dance was notated. From what I understand when Balanchine revived it for City Ballet they had to rely on the film, the original dancers to see what they remembered and even Richard Rodgers was brought in to see what he remembered and I have the impression that it ended up an approximation. Many important ballets that he did were lost even from the 50s and before because they were never notated and if not kept in rep most were not remembered. I believe the Sheherazade take off that ended the first half of On Your Toes was Peter Martins and the rest of the dances were Donald Sadler.

I'd be shocked if any of his Broadway dances from the 30s and 40s were notated. I mean I'd love to think you were right.

Even Robbins' milestone On the Town has nothing left of the original.

Oh, this is the thread for the intellectual cripples

Hi, Matt the Racist Loon at r87!

r88 Many think colour blind casting is ridiculous, your discussion of the point stretches shouting 'racists' endlessly, get better material

Here’s a better idea, r89. Keep that discussion over on the other thread. This thread is a respite from the nastiness and insanity which destroyed the other 339, and now threatens to ruin 340. The discussion at this pointbisctured, it’s just Loon trying to beat people into submission (his specialty). Keep it over there. It’s not needed or wanted over here.

R90 Couple of points...

People not agreeing with your immature belief does not make them nasty or insane, just they have a more mature rounded view

This thread is as dead as 'Head over Heels'

Couple points, Matt. You’ve got the whole other thread to keep beating this tired old horse. We don’t need it here, nor do we need any of your vile contributions. You’ve been a festering, puss-filled sore on DL’s ass for at least two or three years now. It’s time to give it up, Mr. Pajaro.

I know! Why don’t you start another Change.org petition to get Disney to release the full Bedknobs and Broomsticks? You got something like 35 or 36 people to sign on last time. I’ll bet now you might even get up to 38 or 39!

Are those in favor of colorblind casting usually uncut lovers of " Follies"?

What does that even mean, r93? Are you asking if those in favor of colorblind casting are uncircumcised lovers of Follies? Or are you asking if those in favor of colorblind casting are usually those Follies fans for whom nothing will do but the original, uncut Broadway version of the show?

Why do you talk to this freak? Just put him on ignore and he’ll go away.

I prefer Testa's version

There is nothing to prefer about Mary Testa other than her absence.

R99, you want her as your Equity Deputy. Trust me, the broad takes no prisoners and gives no fucks. If anyone could have stood up to Laurents it would have been her.

R94, it's simply a post to meld together three tedious DL threads. Might as well, since the theater discussion inevitable deteriorates into the latest rage of colorblind casting, Follies obsession, and the ubiquitous "uncut" trolling.

Agree about Testa. Love her! She takes no crap

[quote]Agree about Testa. Love her! She takes no crap

I'm glad she's such a great Equity deputy. But please don't make me have to sit through any more of her hambone, overcooked performances. I can only imagine what she's doing to Aunt Eller, which is a hambone part to begin with.

She's one of the best things in OKLAHOMA! And I liked most of it.

I saw "King Kong" the other night. Just dreadful. My friend loved it, though, so there you go.

Yes, I don't know Testa personally, and was only commenting on her performances, which are fucking DREADFUL.

Don't now much about this Testa person but she was a lot of fun in Xanadu.

Did Jerry Herman make any comment on Channing's passing? I saw nothing anywhere.

I saw him at the rear of the Lunt Fontanne when I was exiting the Dolly performance that Channing did when she was 75. He was still handsome and was not talking to anybody but seemed content as he was watching the audience leave. I remember reading later that he said this production was the first time he could just relax and enjoy the show the original having been such a nightmare for him.

My sole memory of Xanadu was of my partner burying his face in his hands and whispering, "Oh God, not again," every time Mary Testa and Jackie Hoffman took the stage together and started making funny faces.

Say what you will, Mary Testa is brilliant in that clip at r110.

Not sure if this has been posted on DL yet. Download it before it gets taken down.

[quote]Mary Testa is brilliant in that clip at R110

Meh. She’s no Vivienne Segal.

This record cover is fabulous.....

Carol ate corn after I charmed the husks right off of it.

When they say "Jagged Little Pill" is opening in a Shubert theater "soon to be announced" ... does Beth Leavel start packing up her dressing room?

Will Jagged Little Pill recast its leads for Broadway? I wouldn't be surprised if Idina is announced for Broadway.

Paulus seems to be pretty faithful when her casts move to Broadway, although yes, a bigger name in the Elizabeth Stanley role wouldn't hurt.

Speaking of Elizabeth Stanley, she's really awful on the new "Something for the Boys" CD. Not quite as bad as another faux-Merman, Lorna Luft, was in "Girl Crazy," but still not very good.

Jane Powell turns 90 on April 1!

Is she still in New York? Powell hasn't been working much lately - you think she'd do a show at 54 Below or some film retrospectives or panels or something. She hasn't been out as much since her husband died a few years back...it used to be you'd see them at opening nights, etc.

Another performer who has gone into seclusion and the last of the MGM musical stars.

The only one left from the golden age of MGM is Stanley Donen who must be in his mid 90s now.

R120 I really like Elizabeth Stanley on that recording. She’s softer and warmer than Merman (who isn’t?) but it worked for me. I’m so glad they didn’t drag out Kim Criswell or some other Merman-wannabe.

why was the original Dolly a nightmare for Jerry Herman?

Dolly opened for out of town previews in Detroit under the title "A Damned Exasperating Woman" to generally so-so reviews. Herman was convinced a very hands-on producer David Merrick wanted to replace him and indeed Merrick brought in Bob Merrill and Adams and Strouse to write new songs. (Merrill wrote Motherhood and Elegance, both of which Herman claims to have rewritten, and Adams and Strouse wrote a song called Before the Parade Passes By which was never used; Strouse has stated this publicly.) Merrick, for all his enormous critical and financial success, was famously a cruel monster as a person and made life Hell for Herman.

Yet Herman, Champion and Stewart all came back to Merrick for Mack & Mabel.

R127 plus Herman had to settle out of court and pay the songwriter of some country song that sounded a lot like “Hello, Dolly!” because Merrick was worried that a lawsuit would screw up the movie sale. Herman was mortified and always claimed he had never heard the country song.

I think the song is called something like Sunflower. Sinatra recorded back in the 40s. This now to me is a bit hazy. However the first 8 notes are EXACTLY the same as Hello Dolly.

The big difference is that Sunflower at that moment dies a miserable death and Hello Dolly soars. It could be that Herman at some point did hear it and completely forgot about it because it is a rotten song, one of those pieces of dreck that Mitch Miller forced his talented singers to sing because muck made money. To get the film of Dolly made and not be held up in litigation Herman said he had to pay out something like $600,000 in 60s money which was a fortune. He would have fought but the pressure to start filming the most expensive movie musical to that date was too strong.

David Mack's "Sunflower." The first four bars of the refrain are identical both melodically and harmonically to the opening bars of "Hello, Dolly" but otherwise the two songs have nothing in common. Herman claimed he had never heard Mack's tune and wanted to defend himself in court but, as mentioned above, the suit was holding up the sale of the film rights and Herman was under enormous pressure from not only Merrick but the rest of the creative team who wanted their cut from the sale.

Who knows? Start around 29 seconds in and it repeats later.

R131 I’m not a copyright lawyer, but based on that recording at R131, I think Herman had a very strong case. What a bitter blow it must have been to settle. I wonder if he paid it himself or if Merrick chipped in (doubtful).

[quote]Dolly opened for out of town previews in Detroit under the title "A Damned Exasperating Woman" to generally so-so reviews.

That’s not true at all about the title. The show’s title became “Hello, Dolly!” shortly before rehearsals started, as numerous column mentions from the time assert, as do the Detroit reviews (including the Variety out-of-town review). What is accurate is that when the show opened in Detroit, Act Two began with a song for Horace called “A Damned Exasperating Woman,” which gave way mid-run to “Elegance.”

How was the law suit against Jerry Herman's supposed plagiarism kept secret back then? Did theater columnists/reporters not know anything about it (is that even possible?) or was it somehow mutually agreed to to leave the story unreported?

The title song of Hello Dolly! was a HUGE hit song, popularized by the Top 10 Louis Armstrong version, so the law suit would certainly have been of great interest to the general public.

[quote]Adams and Strouse wrote a song called Before the Parade Passes By which was never used; Strouse has stated this publicly.

Buy Charles Strouse a drink and he’ll tell you the real story. The song in the show is exactly the one he and Lee Arsms wrote, which is why their names are on the copyright (along with Herman), and why they still get royalties from it. As often happened at the time, ghost writers weren’t credited. Herman went through it himself from the other side with Ben Franklin in Paris, contributing one of its best songs (To Be Alone With You) woth no credit.

Anywsy, Strouse says that when he was writing his memoirs, Jerry called and begged him not to rell the truth about “Parade,” even though Herman had confirmed authorship of his Ben Franklin songs in the 1990s. Strouse agreed, but in personnhe tells the truth.

Would we be hearing better scores on Broadway now if there was more ghost writing?

An arguable point R136. Everyone complains that shows really don't get substantially revised anymore, and some of that may be that no matter how many postgraduate musical theatre writing programs they've been through, some writers don't know how to revise it and make it better. Is it lack of craft? Of talent? It certainly isn't lack of time with so many of these "new" shows actually being years old. They just rewrite it and make it different and the fact that it's newer to the ear at crunch time in the show's life makes it seem better.

It's the grim determination to take all the comedy out of musical comedy. And everything else.

I love Ghost writers!

We will probably never know for sure how much of Before The Parade Passes By is Herman’s or Strouse/Adams. Drunken Strouse might not be the most reliable source.

Who said Strouse was drunk? You realize “buy him a drink” is just an expression, don’t you? I am one of many people who has spent time with Charles and heard him tell the story. He still has his copy of what he and Adams gave to Jerry. And of course, their names on the copyright. Jerry wrote additional lyrics, but he did not write he original lyric or the melody. Steven Suskin first revealed this, as well as Merrill’s contributions, in his “Show Tunes” book. Herman was mortified, called Suskin, and asked for a retraction. But Suskin had the receipts (the copyrights) so in the second edition he published Herman’s remarks but made it clear he didn’t believe them.

Herman has written many, many wonderful songs. But “Parade” isn’t one of them.

Charles Strouse, Charles Nelson Reilly and Carol Channing have all told me this

"Elegance" never appeared in the show while it was in Detroit.

It was written and rehearsed the final few days in Detroit, and went into the show for the opening in DC. It was an immediate hit. In the case of that one, although Merrill wrote it for New Girl in Town, Herman absolutely did do a lot of rewriting of the lyrics.

ICYMI, #340 has turned into a battle of who's the bigger star, Dazeem or Kendrick. FFS.

I can't believe that not one single soul on DL has any theater gossip--even if it's OLD, FFS.

Pick a little, r146......

[quote]I can't believe that not one single soul on DL has any theater gossip--even if it's OLD, FFS.

If you were on the *real* theatre gossip thread, you would see some. I learned that Elizabeth Ashley lives in an NYU dorm.

This IS the real theatre thread, Matt.

Why did Robert Merrill et al. not get credit for the work they did on Hello Dolly? Is that just a thing that Broadway composers used to do for one another?

Yes. Producers would often go to other songwriters to beef up a score if they needed some quick contributions out of town. Sondheim talks of writing a couple of things for ILYA DARLING that were never used. And didn't Bock/Harnick write for BAKER STREET? Don't know if it's still done today.

Now I think they are required to by law; that's why Marc Shaiman is credited twice for writing both music and lyrics for [italic]Hairspray[/italic].

Bock and Harnick wrote "I'm in London Again," "I Shall Miss You, Holmes," and "Cold, Clear World" for Baker Street.

Jerry Herman wrote "To Be Alone With You" and "Too Charming" for Ben Franklin in Paris.

Joan Javits and Philip Springer wrote "You'll Make an Elegant Butler" for Tovarich, but they got a credit. It's a cute song, but not nearly as good as "Her Highness and Her Husband," by the regular composer and lyricist, which it replaced. And "Take Me Back to Montmartre" also cut from Tovarich, was one of the best songs written for the show.

[quote]Now I think they are required to by law; that's why Marc Shaiman is credited twice for writing both music and lyrics for Hairspray.

There's no law. If there were, Glen Kelly would have gotten the credit he deserved for the score of "The Producers." I think these days, with the internet, and every actor and creative having multiple social media accounts, it would be difficult to keep a secret like that. The true situation behind "Head Over Heels" came to light because Jeff Whitty went into a FB tirade over the whole thing. There were rumors that the cast of Hello Dolly had an NDA attached to their contracts re rehearsals, and certainly there were no reports from the rehearsal room at all. That would really be the only way to handle it (and NDA) if they wanted to bring in a "ghost" songwriter (or book writer).

The reason for the "Hairspray" credits is that Marc Shaiman wrote the music by himself, but he and Scott Wittman jointly wrote the lyrics. Since Wittman did not contribute to the music, they couldn't be billed jointly as "Music and Lyrics by."

[quote]Why did Robert Merrill et al. not get credit for the work they did on Hello Dolly?

Wasn't he an opera singer?

Yes, an opera singer. Bob Merrill was a composer ("Carnival") who sometimes wrote only the lyrics ("Funny Girl," with music by Jule Styne).

Ok I know Herman did not write Elegance one of my favorite songs from the show but he did not write the music for Parade? I'm confused. I thought Strouse wrote a completely different song than Parade but giving Herman the idea for what eventually became Before the Parade Passes By.

What matters here is that the other shows mentioned above were not hits and nobody cares but in this case these are two of the strongest songs in one of Broadway's biggest hits and a score to this day which I think is underrated. If this is the case with Parade I am a bit disillusioned though I do not think less of Herman.

That was explained above, r157. Try to pay attention. R135 and R141 and R142 tell the tale.

Bob Merrill wrote "Elegance" for New Girl in Town, but it was cut. He brought it in, gave it to Herman, and Herman wrote the lyrics that were specific to the show ("Barnaby and Cornelius," etc).

"Motherhood" was all Merrill

Strouse and Adams wrote "Parade." Herman took it and wrote lyric for a second and third verse.

All of this was kept hush-hush, although it had been rumored ever since 1964 that someone else contributed "something" to the score. "Motherhood" was the one most often mentioned. When Steven Suskin was writing his "Show Tunes" book (late 1990s or early 2000s), he discovered that Merrill and Strouse and Adams all had their names on those songs. He investigated, and got the real story, which he published. Herman was embarrassed and upset, so he called Suskin, and came up with the story that Strouse and Adams had written a song called "Before the Parade Passes By," but it was a different song, and all he took was the title (I think he owned up to the truth on Motherhood, not sure about Elegance). Steven Suskin didn't believe him, but printed Herman's remarks in the second edition, as well as reiterating that Strouse and Adams were on the copyright for "Parade." Officially, Strouse will verify Herman's story, although he does it reluctantly. In private, he confirms that the song as it is in the show is their song, not Herman's, and he just wrote extra lyrics for it. Herman was alarmed when he heard that Strouse was writing an autobiography (or working with a ghost writer on one), and begged him not to spill the dirt on "Parade." One of the posters above said he heard the story directly from Strouse; another poster said he had heard it from Strouse, Charles Nelson Reilly, and Channing.

r158 But Strouse did not get a credit for writing 'Parade'?

What's the royalty split on "Before theParade..."? Can that be easily looked up?

I also want to mention "A Day In Hollywood/A Night In the Ukraine." Jerry Herman is credited as writing "Best In The World" but gossip I heard was that someone else wrote it and Jerry put his name to it. Herman also is credited with two other songs in the show "Just Go To The Movies" and "Nelson."

"Best In The World" sounds too intricate for Herman. He didn't seem the type to write "story" songs. But take a listen. The orchestration is divine (and only two pianos were used in the show).

No, r159, no one on Dolly got writing credit for the songs but Jerry Herman. Did you not understand "All of this was kept hush-hush"?

R162 The person stated Strouse is credited on the copyright, so link please

I’m fascinated by the fact that Herman got sole writing credit for two (or three) songs that he did not write by himself. Even in the very old days, like when this happened to Rodgers and Hart, the outside composer got credit. Why would Merrick grant this to Herman? Especially since Merrick was supposedly a monster?

Probably because, given the times, Merrick wanted a consistent composer named for the whole score--otherwise, it might seen as patchwork. My guess is Merrick insisted on it.

R165 Insisted on something we have zero proof of, bless

[quote]Probably because, given the times, Merrick wanted a consistent composer named for the whole score--otherwise, it might seen as patchwork. My guess is Merrick insisted on it.

Merrick was a cheap fuck. He didn't want to spend money on printing a bunch of names for lyrics and composers.

I just looked at the Hello, Dolly sheet music book, and all songs are listed “music and lyrics by Jerry Herman.” That said, the Elegance lyric “All the guests of Mr. Hackle are feelin’ great and look spec-tac-a-lar” reeks of lazy Bob Merrill.

Is that any worse than "So don't ever offend her, remember her gender, the man in the moon is a miss?"

That is kind of great, R161. But I'm not sure it's NOT Jerry Herman's work.

Here's "Nelson."

Someone seems not t to understand that names on file in a copyright are different from “sheet music.”

This is all very old news at this point. If you want “proof,” go check out Steven Suskin’s “Show Tunes” yourself. You can probably read it online. Suskin worked for Merrick in the 1960s himself and has direct knowledge.

And the uncredited inclusion of songs by other writers was not unique to Dolly. As has been already pointed out, Herman himself wrote two songs out of town for Ben Franklin in Paris later in 1964, and Bock and Harnick wrote three songs for Baker Street. Frank Loesser has long been rumored to be the writer of “My White Knight” from The Music Man, and also supposedly made a contribution or two to The Pajama Game, which was written by his protégés, Adler and Ross.

And please tell me that there's no one left on DL who doesn't know that Jerry Herman even plagiarized from his own shows:

Try singing "It Takes a Woman" from Dolly and then sing "We Need a Little Christmas" from Mame.

And then there's that song from Herman's early off-Broadway flop Parade "There Is No Tune Like a Show Tune" which he used again as "It's Today" in Mame.

R171 Oh dear, you have been rumbled. Unless you show the 'proof' you said you had that Strouse is listed on the 'copyright' of the song, jog on. Stories in a book proved nothing love

Recycling tunes with different lyrics is a very different matter. Styne did it in GYPSY and R&H in KING AND I. That's not plagiarism.

" This was a real nice hayride. We're mighty glad we came."

Recycling has been going on for centuries and hardly can be considered plagiarism. The greatest composers did it especially in a time when people had no possibility of hearing music except being played live.

Easter Parade is a recycled song.

"Bill" from Showboat had at least two previous incarnations including one where the "Bill" in question was a dollar bill. "Smoke Gets in your Eyes" probably takes the record. I forget how many times it was cut from a show before it became a hit song.

By definition, you can't plagiarize yourself.

[quote]"Smoke Gets in your Eyes" probably takes the record. I forget how many times it was cut from a show before it became a hit song.

None. It was written for the musical "Roberta," and was in the show when it opened in Nov 1933. The very first recording of it, by Gertrude Niesen, was released a month before "Roberta" opened, and the first big hit recording of it (Paul Whiteman's) was released in January, 1934.

"Bill" was written for, and cut on the road from, "Oh Lady Lady," in 1918, in a slightly different version from the Show Boat version. When it was dropped from that show, Kern immediately put it into another show which was starting rehearsals, "Zip Goes a Million" (based on Brewster's Millions). That was the version about the dollar bill. ("In these hard times, you're worth about three dimes, I know, but still ...") But Zip Goes a Million died on the road and never came in. That was the end of it until the need arose for another song for Helen Morgan to sing in "Show Boat." Hammerstein rewrote the "Bill" lyric, which required some minor adjustments in the melody by Kern, and the rest was history.

R180, are you sure? Am I thinking of another song. I could swear one of the Ben Bagley albums had several versions.

Jule Styne was famous for raiding his trunk at every opportunity. The problem was he would use stuff he had already used. He actually used two melodies from the TV production of Ruggles of Red Gap for Gypsy. The problem with that was the TV show was recorded and he didn't bother to mention it to Sondheim who wrote the new lyrics. He did it again with a song from Fade Out Fade In, which was used with new lyrics for Hallelujah Baby. Luckily, both songs had the same lyricists this time.

[quote]Fuck off, r173. You want proof, you go find it, yourself, asshole. I told you where to read all about it. If you want, you can also look the songs up at the Library of Congress, where the copyright is there to behold.

You tell so many lies yourself, you can't recognize the truth when you stumble over it (like your insistence that Rent Live rehearsed for months. You got nailed on that one, sweetie. You always do.)

Now go see if you can find proof that Ann Reinking toured in "Chicago" in 1977. We'll wait for that one, too.

Isn't it a little silly to demand proof -- or truth-- on a gossip site? I think there's a rebuttable presumption that everybody who says "I happen to know...." is lying through his capped teeth

[quote]That is kind of great, [R161]. But I'm not sure it's NOT Jerry Herman's work. Here's "Nelson."

I can believe Herman wrote "Nelson" because I could hear Angela Lansbury or Carol Channing singing it, albeit in a much lower key. It's a character song and it just sounds like something they would sing. "I'm The Best" is a story song. Are there any other examples of Herman writing a linear plot into one of his songs? Not that he couldn't have done that, but it seems that his normal song writing style is to comment on situations rather than tell a story.

" Blue Moon" had at least three incarnations, with the tune used with different lyrics for different shows. There's a medley of them on one of the Rodgers and Hart Ben Bagley Revisited albums.

Wasn't Blue Moon first sung with entirely different lyrics in a MGM film? Maybe Manhattan Melodrama?

OK, it must be Blue Moon then. Sorry.

Yes, r188. The divine Shirley Ross inblackface sang “The Bad in Every Man” In MM.

The other version is called “Prayer,” and is about a girl who wants to be a movie star.

Jeri Southern was a little pitchy.

That's better than being a little bitchy.

R191

No. No being a little bit bitchy is fine. Required really.. Being a witch is definitely helpful for anyone on a Broadway thread. But being pitchy is the devil.

SONG ON THE SAND has a quasi-story narrative, r185, but its context and objective are what make the number truly a stand-out.

"Try singing "It Takes a Woman" from Dolly and then sing "We Need a Little Christmas" from Mame."

or I'LL BE HERE TOMORROW from THE GRAND TOUR and TIME HEALS EVERYTHING from YOU-KNOW-WHAT.

"don't know if it's still done today"

Of course not, r151. If something in a show isn't working, it's the audience's fault. Today it's exceedingly rare if new shows get rewritten from their out of town tryouts before they limp to Broadway. That requires talent, training, taste and an built-in bullshit detector. Everybody today, however, is an "artist."

But for Mr Levi, that production of SHE LOVES ME was abysmal.

[quote] If something in a show isn't working, it's the audience's fault.

No, it is the costume designer.

Just too add more to it all. "Hello Dolly" was sweeping the awards and getting all the attention while "Funny Girl' and its score was being praised only as a vehicle for Barbra. This drove Jule Styne nuts. Especially knowing Jerry hadn't written it all. He was very involved with ASCAP and put all kind of pressure to release the information about the score. He was also involved in kicking a fuss about "If He Walked into my Life" and the theme to the Jackie Gleeson show. Carol who adored both men, said it was a moment of pettiness on his part, and that she just didn't understand it.

I don't think "If He Walked Into My life" is very close to the Jackie Gleason theme (which, fwiw, was written by Gleason

Same subject, different composer(s): Try humming "The Candy Man" and "No One Is Alone." More, "Goodbye For Now" and "Ill be Home For Christmas"--which Sondheim swears he'd never heard of at the time he was working on Reds.

[quote]"Hello Dolly" was sweeping the awards and getting all the attention while "Funny Girl' and its score was being praised only as a vehicle for Barbra.

I settled that score when I did the movie version of Hello Dolly. Everyone remembers my "Before The Parade Passes By" and even though that white haired bitch sang it fifty billion times, nobody remembers her doing it justice.

I love both scores but FG is better which is why I can understand Styne was so pissed. Dolly though is all around a better show.

And although when they were released the film of Funny Girl was a huge success and Dolly a disappointment I have the sense today that Dolly is a beloved film through TV showings and video in a way that Funny Girl is not. And a big factor is that Streisand is absolutely spectacular as Dolly in a way no one else could have been at that time no matter what their age. It's the ultimate movie musical performance. It's like at the beginning of every song Streisand is saying to the audience now I'm going to kill you with this and she does in the tradition of the greatest performers.

The Jackie Gleeson theme is barely close to the "Mame" song for only a few notes but Styne was petty. That said, was Andrew Lloyd Webber watching "The Apartment" when he wrote "Love Never Dies?"

R198 Wow, you really hate Herman and now resemble a dog with a bone. With zero proof except for you amazing friendship with Strouse, fuck what a tragedy you and this thread are

I love Jerry Herman's work very much. Even "Dear World" and "Grand Tour." "Marianne" always brings a tear to my eye. Herman himself is very cool about Dolly compared to his other shows. "I like Dolly, I love Mame, I unashamedly adore "Mack and Mable." I am relating stories that were told to me by people in that time. And my stories do take Styne to task for being petty -- as related by Carol Channing.

And I think Charles Strouse might have been thinking of "Isn't it Romantic" when he wrote "Dance a little Closer"

He likes Dolly but it endures in a way that Mame no longer does and Mack and Mable never did.

205 that ain't no jive!

Dolly's a creaky piece of crap the same as Mame. It's just people don't speak the truth about Dolly. Where are the social justice warriors when it comes to Dolly trying to marry Horace for his money?

Oh, run along, r207.

Horace's money is spoken about throughout the entire musical. It's not like it's some secret that Dolly is after him for his half a million. Even Irene is after him because she's sick of working.

It's kind of ingenious that it remains warm, lighthearted and appealing.

Material comfort and companionship. Aren't those the goals of most people? I guess you could call it pretty honest in its way.

I find it hard to believe SS never heard of I'LL BE HOME FOR XMAS. That said, he did base GOODBYE FOR NOW on the first few notes and the melodic contour of the Internationale, the USSR anthem, which makes perfect sense giving REDS' subject matter.

You know what would make a GREAT musical?

300.

Who should our lyricist be?

Thread #340 (spelled "theater" instead of the traditional "theatre") has one of the shittiest titles ever, so I'm hoping more people will continue to post here.

[Quote] He actually used two melodies from the TV production of Ruggles of Red Gap for Gypsy. The problem with that was the TV show was recorded and he didn't bother to mention it to Sondheim who wrote the new lyrics. He did it again with a song from Fade Out Fade In, which was used with new lyrics for Hallelujah Baby. Luckily, both songs had the same lyricists this time.

Was there another lyricist involved in Ruggles? Would that lyricist have a financial interest in the Sondheim rewrite? I've noticed that foreign language versions of songs sometimes credit the original lyricist as well, even when the new lyric is completely different and not a translation.

Point taken, r210 (and I find it hard to believe as well). But the "home for Christmas" theme also has some contextual significance in the film.

r213: I'm having trouble recalling it, but I thought as Sondheim tells the story another lyric had been set, and they were all relieved that the original lyricist didn't notice, or didn't challenge it. I can't recall who it was, but he was named as part of the story. Probably in Secrest or Finishing the Hat.

If X writes a tune, and Y writes some lyrics for it, X can't re-use it with new lyrics from Z, without the permission of Y?

I don't know. As the story was told, both Styne and Sondheim (Probably more the latter) were a little nervous.

The original song title was "I'm In Pursuit of Happiness" and I want to say Leo Robin was the original lyricist but that's a guess.

That sounds like "I'm In Pursuit of a Penis".

I suppose it does, if you're 12 years old.

Eww, R218. Take that insinuation back to the Michael Jackson thread where it belongs.

I just pulled up the tv recording of Ruggles of Red Gap, and the original Styne-Robin song is on the recording (I'm in Pursuit of Happiness, sung by Jane Powell, Michael Redgrave, and Peter Lawford).

WHAT insuation, r218? That r217's comment sounds like something a 12 year old would say? Calm down

Naivete is no longer charming after the age of 30, R221. In your case, that was 60 years ago, so you definitely have no excuse.

I believe someone (Burt Shevelove) showed up at Sondheim's house the day after "Gypsy" and said ,"I have the cast album to your show" and played "I'm in pursuit of Happiness" from a recoding of Ruggles. There was also a song from "High Button Shoes" cut that was "I'm betwixt, I'm between!!! which was, you guessed it, "You'll be swell, you'll be great!!"

From everything I've heard Jule was kind of crazy this way and everyone sort of threw their hands up and chuckled. At his memorial service, everyone had frustrated with Jule stories.

More vibrato than the Loma Prieta quake of 1989.

Just try

Awwww Ruggles

and you're gonna see

Awwww Ruggles

The Buster Davis Choir???!

[quote]The Buster Davis Choir???!

They were no Buffalo Bills.

Good ones, R199. I adore Sondheim but even the most original songwriters consciously or unconsciously beg, borrow, and steal from one another.

Then, of course, there's Sir Andrew....

Yes; Sir Andrew's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

R203 = Matt the Loon, Mr. Pajaro. There's nothing more tragic than the sight of you in drag, Matt, as your "screen debut" proved. Hilarious that you inserted yourself into IMDB.

That video is astonishing, r228.

[quote]Yes; Sir Andrew's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

He looks like he drinks like one.

I'm not at all a Webber fan and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on most of them except the Pink Floyd which certainly is a ' Stop! Thief!'

[quote]He actually used two melodies from the TV production of Ruggles of Red Gap for Gypsy.

What was the other song from "Ruggles" that wound up in GYPSY? I've only ever heard of "Pursuit of Happiness." Unless you mean "Betwixt and Between," but that wasn't from Ruggles, it was a cut song from High Button Shoes.

There's a passage in Max Steiner's score from [italic]Gone with the Wind[/italic] that kind of sounds like "Memory." You can hear it in the pre-credits overture and throughout the film.

If a song is cut from a show doesn't that make it automatically a trunk song and really has no bearing on the subject?

There are a limited number of notes, and millions of songs. Some melodic similarities are inevitable. Legal determinations of plagiarism can be tricky.

[quote]If a song is cut from a show doesn't that make it automatically a trunk song and really has no bearing on the subject?

Exactly. Sondheim wasn't thrilled about Styne using "Betwixt and Between," because he thought all of the melodies for "Gypsy" should have been original, but it was a trunk song, so he let it go. What upset him about "Pursuit of Happiness" is that it wasn't a trunk song, it was a recycled melody from a published song.

Well I guess if Handel and Vivaldi could get so much mileage out of their best tunes...

Seems like all the great western music possibilities have been used up so no more great Broadway scores, no more great operas or symphonies or even songs.

So how long did it last like 300 to 400 years?

"There's a passage in Max Steiner's score from Gone with the Wind that kind of sounds like "Memory."

Listen to the opening strain of BOLERO.

"Seems like all the great western music possibilities have been used up so no more great Broadway scores, no more great operas or symphonies or even songs."

Bu that's simply not true. The possibilities and permutations are infinite. It's the talent that is no more, and everything that goes with it.

So where did the talent go? Did it just disappear into thin air? How do we have more and more people and less and less or should I say zilch artistic genius?

R230 Your delusion stinks as badly as this thread. Actually it is becoming interesting unlike your fantasies

Perhaps I overstated the case. Of course there is talent out there (let's not even get into the murky waters of "genius," a word which should be banished from use for the foreseeable future), but the culture doesn't support it...or supports the wrong things for the wrong reasons. Everything is consumed in the maw of pop culture, everything is geared to the teen/Gen Z dollar, there is little value placed on the heritage and legacy of the last 400 years or on craftsmanship, it's either "the next new thing" or "make it new"--the cry of the baby with its rattle. Which is why so many "original" (insert eye roll emoji here) musicals today concern themselves with trite stories about navel-gazing, teary collegiates or making it in a rock band or what have you. Everything has to toe the bottom line, the individual, singular voice is cast aside because it isn't homogenized enough to sell a bazillion hits this week--and be forgotten the next. It's the Age of the Amateur, the Age of Disposal. It's HARD to write a 32-bar song that is fresh yet inevitable in its melody, it's HARD to find a new way to say 'I love you"...it takes talent, training AND tenacity....which is why Broadway scores of the last few decades have largely been mediocre. There used to be a time when even the least accomplished score would yield a peppy up tune or a somewhat memorable ballad (well, maybe not THREE WISHES FOR JAMIE). Today? Fuhgedabboudit. It seems the genre reached its apogee with Sondheim...and then the bottom fell out. Perhaps that's the natural life span of any art form. But in contemporary singing theatre, as in pop music, there seems to be less emphasis on the actual material than how it "sounds." But as Charles Ives said in one of his crankier moments, "What does music have to do with sound?" I'm sorry for rambling, but there are SO many factors that come into play, it would require a dissertation to make sense of all of it.

I don't really want to see Audra naked in 'Frankie and Johnny" -- full-frontal or partial, nope, not a bit.

Here's Jane Powell (with "Guys and Dolls" star Sam Levene on the left) and Gordon MacRae and "Follies" fave (FOLLIES!) outside the door, being shocked as Jane switches gears stylistically in her song.

Jane does look gorgeous in that clip!

That, very briefly, "Follies" fave was Gene Nelson.

[quote] That’s not true at all about the title. The show’s title became “Hello, Dolly!” shortly before rehearsals started, as numerous column mentions from the time assert, as do the Detroit reviews (including the Variety out-of-town review). What is accurate is that when the show opened in Detroit, Act Two began with a song for Horace called “A Damned Exasperating Woman,” which gave way mid-run to “Elegance.”

You are misinformed. Dolly played Detroit as either "A Damned Exasperating Woman" or "Dolly, a Damned Exasperating Woman" according to which source you consult. That was even the title of a cut song. The show then moved to Washington, D.C. for four weeks where it opened as "Call On Dolly." There are posters and playbills to confirm this. Shortly before it opened in New York, possibly at the end of the DC run, Merrick changed the title to "Hello, Dolly!" because the Armstrong recording had become a massive hit

"Before the Parade Passes By" went into the show in DC. Below is Charles Strouse explaining to Richard Skipper how the Parade number is Herman's but that he and Adams get a royalty cut because of the way they show doctored the end of Act One. I'm not sure how much I believe him. The interview is from Skipper's personal blog but Skipper's website callondolly.com is the Bible for all things Dolly.

For what it's worth, even the execrable Wikipedia says the show played out-of-town in Detroit and then DC first as "Dolly Levi: A Damned Exasperating Woman" and then "Call On Dolly" before the title was changed to "Hello, Dolly!" because of the Louis Armstrong recording.

Didn't Carole Bayer Sager re-use a line Peter Allen wrote for prior song when she and Bacharach wrote Arthur's Theme? It's the "Moon and New York City" line, so it's a major part of the song. But Allen didn't contribute to the music. Maybe Strouse was in a similar position to Allen.

[quote]For what it's worth, even the execrable Wikipedia says the show played out-of-town in Detroit and then DC first as "Dolly Levi: A Damned Exasperating Woman" and then "Call On Dolly" before the title was changed to "Hello, Dolly!"

It doesn't actually say that. It says [italic]The show was originally entitled "Dolly, A Damned Exasperating Woman," then "Call on Dolly," but Merrick changed it upon hearing Louis Armstrong's version of "Hello, Dolly". [/italic] So it's not saying the show was called either name on the road, only that those were its original names. It's poorly written, though, so it's easy to mistake that, because that information comes after the notation about the show going out of town. It's totally bullshit, anyway, because Armstrong didn't record the song till late in December 1963, and it was released in January '64 - both dates being well after the show was on the road, and in the case of the commercial release, after the show had opened on Broadway.

Check out the contemporary articles about the show - it became "Hello Dolly" before rehearsals started (in October '63). Or, read the many different accounts written by people like Herman. It's interesting, though, that the song "A Damned Exasperating Woman" stayed in the show through the Detroit tryout, but has never resurfaced (as "Penny in My Pocket" has) - nor has Carol's original "Goodbye" song (called, I believe, "The Goodbye Song") which was replaced by So Long, Dearie. Nor, for the matter, has the Butterfly number which was in the show for its first year in NYC, and only cut when Champion restaged that segment for the tour, and redid it for Broadway at the same time. Herman has been quoted as saying he wishes they hadn't cut it.

From the Ovrtur website:

"On Oct. 7, 1963, an article in the New York Times informed readers that "Carol Channing's new musical will be called 'Hello, Dolly!' rather than 'Dolly, A Damned Exasperating Woman.'" This was more than five weeks before the first pre-Broadway performance in Detroit."

On the OBCR, during Sunday Clothes, Channing sings "Ambrose, let me hear that tonic chord!" That's because at that point the Butterfly number was still in and Ambrose was going to compete in a singing contest. When the Polka contest went in much later, the line was changed to "We haven't missed the train, thank the Lord!" and that's what you hear on all the later recordings.

Thank you, always wondered about the "Thank the Lord"

Also saw pictures of the butterfly dance in old copies of life but never in the show.

David Burns had a bunch of great one liners in the Butterfly sequence. "Watch your feelers, Miss!' '

[quote]"There's a passage in Max Steiner's score from Gone with the Wind that kind of sounds like "Memory."

Ripping off the Gone With The Wind score? The nerve!

'Watch your feelers, Miss!' is one of those unfunny lines that when said by David Burns brings down the house.

I was a boy when I saw the original show in I believe July of '65(so I didn't see the butterfly number) which I think was just before Channing left.

When he said 'Chocolate covered peanuts. Unshelled.' I remember the house came down. I didn't think it was funny. But then I was too young to understand somebody like Burns.

What is the meaning of tonic chord? Was that a musical phrase or something people would've known?

r253 is correct. Months before it opened in Detroit, the Fisher Theater was announcing a new musical, Dolly: A Damned, etc. For a time the reports named Ethel Merman as the star. By the time it opened in Detroit, it was Hello, Dolly. I know. I was there and saw a matinee. Wish I had the program to prove it, but I sold my whole batch of Fisher programs for a pretty penny to a guy who collects them since they are now rare (they were called Stage); only the Fisher and The Palace in NY used that name and format (wider than they were tall).

[quote]I don't really want to see Audra naked in 'Frankie and Johnny" -- full-frontal or partial, nope, not a bit.

You may not have to. I've seen a few productions of the show that have never had nudity. The show opens in darkness and you hear the sound of them having sex. They climax, then the actors get up and Frankie puts on a robe or a wrap and Johnny puts on his underwear. It's up to each individual production's lighting design to decide how much is seen and at what point.

I feel like I saw the end of Broadway in the 70s. People say it was depressing in NY during those years. But there were so many wonderful things to see and I was a teen so I walked around like I owned the place and was never bothered. And it was the apogee of the last of the great Broadway talents. Sondheim, Bennett, Fosse Tune. And dear god there was the Houston Grand Opera production of Porgy and Bess. Was there anything greater? Especially when it moved to the Hellinger and you had this enormous lavish production in the size of a theater it was meant for. And those glorious singers.

What signified the real end was the tearing down of all those theaters for the Marriott. That's when Time Square's and Broadway's history as a New York neighborhood ended for good.

Could someone remind me please how much or how little nudity we got from Audra in the Lincoln Center Passion?

[quote]I don't really want to see Audra naked in 'Frankie and Johnny" -- full-frontal or partial, nope, not a bit.

Grow up.

The idea being that if you are grown up you won't mind seeing a naked woman?

I remember hating my STAGE program from Sweet Charity at The Palace!

I hated how its ungainly size did not fit in with all my other Playbills from the 1960s.

It's like Julie Andrews baring her boobs. Why?

It's like what Vincent Canby said about her. When the girl guide take off her clothes all you've got is a very naked girl guide.

I mean we all know these people have bodies and functions like everybody else but because of image and looks we don't want to see them.

After Such Good Friends I was so embarrassed by Burgess Meredith in that it ruined one of my favorite childhood movies The Reivers for me.

[quote]I feel like I saw the end of Broadway in the 70s.

Many things changed that affected Broadway.

The music was changing and Broadway had to make room for rock music. Britain was sending over the sung through musicals and Broadway had to adapt to the bombast of the 80s.

Many audience members had been brought up watching television and had shorter attention spans, therefore a three hour play was no longer marketable.

Production costs started rising and there was no room to test a show out of town or endure a flop. Although, the regional theaters gained strength and were able to send tested work to Broadway.

Actors became less skilled as producers stopped hiring people with real talent and went for university trained talent. As a result, producers started pushing movie and tv "names" to sell their shows and audiences grew used to seeing mediocre acting.

IMO, the death of off-Broadway really affected New York theater going the most. Throughout the 80s and well into the 90s, there were still excellent shows an audience could see in small theaters. I can name many shows that I saw. But as off-Broadway started to get squeezed, partially due to high rents for theaters and theaters being torn down or repurposed, many producers and theater companies died. It's a shame that the less than adequate Roundabout is one of the few theater groups still standing. There were more interesting groups, doing better work, that faded and died.

[quote] It's like Julie Andrews baring her boobs. Why?

So Blake Edwards could prove his heterosexuality. He failed.

The other song from "Ruggles" is "I Have You to Thank" which is very similar to "Mama's Talking Soft."

How did Petula Clark end up recording that song when it got cut from the show, R271? She wouldn't be famous in the US for another five years when "Downtown" came out, after which this got reissued.

Love that Pet Clark song!! There was a song I hears sung by Jonathan Hadary at a benefit which was cut from "Gypsy" because Jack Klugman couldn't sung it. All I remember was the line "She's got friends she haven't even used yet"

Any knowledge?

It was called "Nice, She Ain't". Didn't Boyd Gaines record it as a bonus track when Patti did the show?

Yes. Michael Feinstein recorded it, too, I think. Or Tony Bennett.

R273 What is your first language?

[quote] It's a shame that the less than adequate Roundabout is one of the few theater groups still standing.

Agree that Roundabout is almost always less than adequate, but LCT, NYTW, MTC, 2nd Stage, and Signature often do good work. There are probably a few others I'm forgetting.

[quote]I don't really want to see Audra naked in 'Frankie and Johnny" -- full-frontal or partial, nope, not a bit.

Neither do we.

i'll take Roundabout over MTC any day and LCT produces very little

How far is staging and concept copyrighted? For example, could a director use the concept of ghosts, younger actors playing the older leads, like it was used in Follies?

I remember Cat On A Hot Tin Roof trying to use a Ghost Skipper, but he wasn't a character that was seen in the play. And maybe the concept is better suited to a musical, where the audience is more readily willing to suspend belief, rather than using a younger Ghost Willy in Death of A Salesman or a Ghost Macbeth in Macbeth, ie younger versions of the lead characters.

[quote]I sold my whole batch of Fisher programs for a pretty penny

So then you had a pretty penny in your pocket?

Wow, r271, you're right. It's not literally the exact same melody, as "Pursuit of Happiness/You'll Never Get Away" are, but the central melody is definitely there. I'd never seen that mentioned before. Is this your discovery?

And, incidentally, I've never heard Jane Powell belt before the way she does in this song. Neat.

Yes, I take full credit, r282. :) When I heard "Momma's Talkin' Soft" for the first time, I immediately recognized it.

I'm not sure about concept and staging theft. I'm sure it's frowned upon, but some plays and musicals specify in their contracts that the staging must be original or they must adhere to the original.

I think the problem with trying out shows these days is that no one seems to know what to look for when a show is bombing. They do blame the audience a lot and, sometimes, they could be right (I've seen brilliant shows that bombed with the wrong audience), but a lot of the time, if a line isn't getting a laugh or a showstopper isn't stopping the show, there's something wrong.

If I were doing a new show, I'd try out the show, as rehearsed, for 5 performances and get a few different reactions. After 5 performances, you can start to see the trouble spots and what's working and what's not. It's the same as test screenings which they do for movies a lot. You can't just screen it to one audience and, if they say you need to change the ending, you go out and change it. You need multiple audience reactions. If 1 or 2 out of 5 audiences say the ending is a problem, it probably isn't a problem, but it might just be polarizing. There's a difference between something that's polarizing and something that simply just doesn't work.

A lot of people put it in front of one audience and take all their input even if it isn't for the best and that can fuck up a show, too.

The system of out-of-town tryouts was the best. Try it out in a city away from NYC. Even in this day of internet and social media, it's not like being in the cauldron of previews in New York.

[quote]And, incidentally, I've never heard Jane Powell belt before the way she does in this song. Neat.

Jane was quite versatile. She was also a good dancer.

I suppose her dancing days are over at 90.

Dick Van Dyke danced, sort of, at 92 in "Mary Poppins Returns."

Floppy Poopy Turds was a dud. If not for that Oprah thing it would have been Disney's biggest disappointment of 2018.

Shut the fuck up, loon.

Versatile Jane with Fred Astaire in "Royal Wedding."

At MGM they trained them very young which is why even the young singers could dance well. Angela is wonderful in her musical numbers in her two MGM musicals(though strangely dubbed in Harvey Girls when they considered her fine for Till the Clouds Roll By) and even Peter Lawford is terrific doing the Varsity Drag.

Out of town tryouts were the best. In Detroit I got to see NO STRINGS, SKYSCRAPER, CHARITY, DOLLY, FIDDLER, ILYA DARLING, PICKWICK, OLIVER, I HAD A BALL, JENNIE, and many more. Some still had imperfections, but that was part of the fun.

But sometimes, the creative team doesn't want to acknowledge. I saw Nick & Nora twice in previews, once very early on and once two days before it opened. Everyone in the entire audience could see that it just wasn't sparking, but the creatives weren't going to put the time in to fix it. You know when the dog gets the strongest applause, you better act fast. It was almost like they just said, "Throw it up there and get this thing over with." The idea had such potential, but it just flopped.

Some still had imperfections when they reached Broadway, r293. On an unrelated note......

M had some nerve calling Walt Disney a bigot while still taking money from the studio that bears his name. Twice.

My showtunes radio is playing a super-cheesy version of "All The Things You Are" with Alan Campbell and Lauren Kennedy, from about 15 years ago.

WEHT either of them? Still working?

I saw Funny Girl in the Boston try out. Was not paying much attention to Hello, Dolly beyond hearing it but was written first for Ethel Merman.

I wonder when the Times will do a piece on the appropriation by African Americans of white European instruments and notation for their great musical cultural heritage. And then their theft of the anticipation of ragtime from Gottschalk.

I mean is the Times getting stupider by the day?

We're not exactly talking about the collected works of Jane Austen here.

My beloved Louis Moreau Gottschalk took his syncopated rhythms from the African music he heard in his early tours of the Caribbean and perhaps from his Creole mother in New Orleans. I remember the first time I heard "La Nuit des Tropiques" on the radio and I was What the Hell is this?! It was obviously mid 19th century but it was also ragtime, it was jazz!

From a mixed race family, in the mid nineteenth century he was considered America's first great classical pianist. So remarkable.

^ Kind of hot, too.

why does Seth Sikes insist on doing his songs in such high keys? a tone or two down would make them so much more pleasant to listen to!

R303 Well we all have our own tastes. He should have tried on his clothes in the store first.

This is the reason the word yikes was invented......

R292 Jane Powell was a terrific dancer, as evidenced in that clip with Fred Astaire. Not only could she keep up with Fred, she could sing, act and chew gum at the same time! She had been dancing way before she arrived at MGM, btw having taken classes since she was a young girl. She's doing choreography there that, much as I love Judy Garland, might have been too hard for her. Perhaps June Allyson who had been a chorus dancer on Broadway, might have been able to keep up.

Say, wasn't Gene Nelson in the original cast of "Follies"?

KAY!

I'm not ageist but often surprised by posters here who say "I saw The Black Crook" out of town and "Our American Cousin," sort of nostalgia more than gossip and damn you're all old, not that there's anything wrong with that

And you're surprised, R312, that these threads attract a lot of tired old theater queens?

I didn't think they'd be old enough to have been there the night Lincoln was shot.

Saw MERRILY a lovely college vanity production No one in the cast has the top notes I could find 5 people waiting tables in the area who would be better suited for the roles Dont bother. Theyre here

College vanity production? That is like a self-published small press book. One adjective precludes the other.

Did someone mention being there the night Lincoln was shot?

r301=Oogie Pringle

That little gnome in the Fanny Brice clip at r311 is none other than Billy Rose,famously portrayed as a sexy hairy hunk by Jimmy Caan in Funny Lady.

Well I saw the first production of The Beggar's Opera on a theater trip to London and knew after the performance musical theater had been changed for ever. Yes it was a juke box musical with already well know songs but nobody cared as it was so much fun.

For me, not so much "yikes" as yawn.

I've always found "Down In the Depths.." one of Cole Porter's dullest songs. Never understood it's place in the G.A. songbook, when there are so many other, better Porter songs. It must fill a need for menopausal cabaret wanna-bes in spangly dresses.

That said, Bea wasn't doing it any favors, either.

Jane Powell could really do it all--dance, sing, act, comedy--and always seemed like a nice lady.

But there's some essential star quality, some uniqueness lacking. She was a great team player, but never really an A lister for me.

Stop talking Bea and start singing, will ya? What is that from anyway?

As for the Fannie Brice clip. In the song she says " I used to travel single-o" and in 'Funny Girl" in people, she says "we travel single-o"

I asked an old queen if that was a Fanny Brice thing and he said that it was common slang of the time for Single occupancy on trains. And then he blew me.

r320 My goodness, you're about 300 years old.

About the average age for the tired queens here R325.

Oops, R324 ^

I was kidding, r314

From Whoop-Up to...........My Fair Lady?

I think Miss Stansfield does very nicely with it, r321.

Hello Gorgeous......

I don't find her the least bit amusing,

I don't find Laurel and Hardy the least bit amusing. What was considered uproarious comedy 80 years ago hasn't aged terribly well, with rare exceptions.

Ella Fitzgerald sings Nelson Riddle's arrangement of "Down in the Depths" in he 1972 album, ELLA LOVES COLE.

I still love Laurel & Hardy in the "March of the Wooden Soldiers" a/k/a "Babes In Toyland". That was shown as a perennial every Thanksgiving on TV and continues to this day. The tenor, Felix Knight, who played Tom-Tom, had a gorgeous voice-- he later sang at the Met, and he was pretty gorgeous himself. (I usually don't like these colorized versions, but "Babes In Toyland" really should have been filmed in color). Mr. Knight was just dreamy.

And that's Charlotte Henry in that clip, somehow mislabeled.

Here's Felix Knight showing off a nice hairy armpit (and singing like an angel)!

How about a man in drag as Fanny Brice in FUNNY GIRL?

Seriously. She was so broad, so cartoonish that she makes Barbra look timid. (Well, almost.) A strong singer with great comic chops could bring new life to the show. Have any more traditional revivals really worked?

[quote] She was so broad

But was she broad where a broad should be broad?

R337 Lin Manuel-Miranda would rap it with humor and panache!

Oh, please: just one day--one lousy day--with no mention of Lin-Manuel Miranda.

I don't think a goatee would be a good look for Fannie, unless they had her do the number cut from the show that inspired the famous poster of her standing on her head with roller skates!

[quote] Oh, please: just one day--one lousy day--with no mention of Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Fine, we'll talk about Sandy Duncan.

Now that's real talent. She was wonderful in "Peter Pan" and in the revival of "No, No, Nanette", among other things. What a great dancer!

And as Roxie in CHICAGO.

Here she is with her husband talking about her stage career, her eye surgery and her return to TV after she said she wouldn't:

She had a top-rated show "Funny Face" before she had her eye surgery. For some reason, it was re-tooled when she recovered, renamed "The Sandy Duncan Show" and didn't do as well in the ratings. She was great playing a nasty Southern belle in "Roots" and fun in the movies 'Million Dollar Duck" and "Star-Spangled Girl". Plus she stole the show from Judy Carne in the revival of "The Boy Friend" with her dancing and performance as 2nd lead Maisie. Plus she was great opposite Tommy Tune when she replaced Twiggy in "My One and Only". Talented lady!

[quote] Fine, we'll talk about Sandy Duncan.

I liked her up until I saw her in Peter Pan. My little girl, Summer Dawn, wanted to see Peter Pan so badly. So her father and I bought the very best orchestra seats. We were sitting there, loving being in NYC and seeing a Broadway show. When the song "I'm Flying" started Summer Dawn was in awe that everyone was flying. And it was even more adrenaline packed when Miss Duncan flew out over the audience. But just as she flew over Summer Dawn, something happened. This round, glass object fell from Miss Duncan's body and plopped right into Summer Dawn's lap. As we looked down, there was an eye looking back at us. I swanee, Summer Dawn screamed to wake the dead and none of us would touch it. Miss Duncan asked for the music to stop and she yelled for the stage manager to fly her back out. We were embarrassed because all eyes were on us as Miss Duncan kept saying, "A little lower, a little lower." She finally reached down into Summer Dawn's lap and plucked the stray object out. Then she looked Summer Dawn full in the face and winked at her. That sent Summer Dawn into uncontrollable heaving and we had to remove her from the theater.

That would be a funny and horrifying story if Sandy had a glass eye. Both of her eyes are her own; one is sightless.

r348, that is my truth and you have too much privilege if you do not believe me. My lawyer will be in contact shortly to sue you for libel.

Unfortunately, that is now considered offensive. Those who will be outraged will come forward, even though it wasn't meant to do more than amuse and charm the audience.

[quote]That would be a funny and horrifying story if Sandy had a glass eye.

Actually, it wasn't funny in the least. Strained, overly long, and you could see that ending coming less than halfway through.

I don't understand why people refuse to put past theatrical/cinematic conventions into historical perspective. Yes, r352, Fanny's audience laughed at it.

Fanny is quite wonderful in her lottery ticket sketch from the Vincent Minelli Ziegfeld Follies with William Frawley and of all people Hume Cronyn. The rest of the sketches in that are pretty dire.

I think Eddie Cantor holds up wonderfully well in Whoopie and the nasty jewish tailor short. Its unpleasantness surprised me despite being very funny. Talk about having an edge.

If Sandy substituted that dance for the song, Oh My mysterious lady, good choice

I do like the song!

R347 has posted that story at least twice in the past. It's always a loser because of the fact, as has been pointed out, that Duncan still has both of her eyes. She had a tumor behind one of the eyes, and when it was removed, she lost her sight in that eye, but they didn't remove the eye itself.

Has anybody heard the song from Peter Pan that Mary Martin had cut from the show because it got no applause? Lee talks about it in her book and it sounds wonderful.

Do you mean "When I Went Home," r357? I thought she had it cut because it was too sad. I know there's at least one recording of it out there, Michelle Nicastro on one of those cut song recordings.

Oh, come to think of it, "When I Went Home" was in the recent TV Peter Pan, wasn't it?

[quote][R347] has posted that story at least twice in the past. It's always a loser because of the fact, as has been pointed out, that Duncan still has both of her eyes.

Che-rist, whatever happened to the fun gays? You remember, the ones who know what pointless bitchery is? DataLounge isn't Wikipedia. If a tall tale slips through once in awhile, it's all the more funny. I laugh like hell at some of the stuff that posters make up. You should try it sometime. I don't believe for a second that Lee Remick/Angela Lansbury/Millicent Martin opened a door at Sondheim's house and found his leather dungeon, but I laugh like hell when someone repeats it because it's funny.

Can some wise elder explain that hatchet face, Sylvia Fine Kaye, to the rest of us?

I think I'd heard she was married to homosexual performer, Danny Kaye. Or maybe she was his mother?

Anyway: how did she become appointed custodian of old Broadway?

She was his wife. I don't know how she got appointed/appointed herself, but I do recall that she used to have periodic programs on PBS focusing on particular shows or composers. I have a dim and not entirely pleasant recollection that she used to perform on these programs in addition to narration.

I think Sylvia maybe performed only once on the show, though I can't remember what it was.

She was a tough old bird, but I guess one would have to be to be able to stay married to a gay, needy, fame-hungry, talented creep like Danny Kaye.

"I don't find her the least bit amusing, "I don't find Laurel and Hardy the least bit amusing. What was considered uproarious comedy 80 years ago hasn't aged terribly well, with rare exceptions.'

I'm saying novenas for the both of you this evening. Nothing else will save you, you poor heathen souls.

Yes, Felix Knight WAS gorgeous. I seem to recall he spent his last years teaching at a university in L.A (I'm too lazy to look it up).

How about a revival of GOOD NEWS on an especially "woke" contemporary college campus?

Visionary, radicalized undergrads transform sleepy Tait College on the eve of the big football game, the final of the season. "The Best Things In Life Are Free" becomes a cautionary duet about dating with full consent and no acts of micro-aggression. "Button Up Your Overcoat," a freestyle rap, becomes a metaphor for protection against triggering stimuli and hate speech. Once the heroic undergrads bring the administration to its knees (with the help of social media) and have the athletic program defunded and then outlawed, jubilant non-binary, non-cis students lead the others with "The Varsity Drag."

Something for everyone, particularly the young people!

r361 EST. It was so long-winded it had gotten stale before it was, at long last, over.

I prefer the Riviera to the Varsity Drag!

Patriots Top Rams?

I guess I should have watched the Super Bowl after all.

I think "Good News" might work if they set it at Harrad College where "The Harrad Experiment" took place. Lots of nudity, swimming, encounter groups, plus Charlestoning and drag Varsity Drag. Its songs are tuneful and a raunchy upgrade might make its update sellable.

They can call it "Good Nudes"!

Good News is one of the very best of the MGM musicals. Robert Alton was a genius. Pure effortless charm with two of the best production numbers ever in a movie musical. Comden and Green used to call it their Battleship Potemkin. I wanted to slap them silly. I'm not sick of it the way I am with Singin in the Rain(except for Jean Hagan the only thing that really holds up. One of the best comic performances in a movie.) and the Band Wagon.

Love the "Good News" parodies!!!

Jesus.

Will this thread EVER die?

Just kill it.

R366 I am thrilled somebody has had this idea, GN is a great show but making it contemporary and depicting the filth pools of idiocy Universities have become is a great idea. I love you. Funniest thing I have read here for awhile. As Kevin Costner would say, you are neat.

R374 Honey.....I thought that at the start but it has evolved into something kinda sweet and funny now. So just chillax and go have a hate wank

You first, r374.

"The Apple Doesn't Fall" is such a craven attempt to duplicate the success of "The Grass is Always Greener." And as such, it's a monumental flop.

Good News? Laurel and Hardy? Dear God, this thread. I didn’t even know they had WiFi in nursing homes.

You post on this thread as much as you do on the other. If you don't like it, fuck off.

I can see how you might think that, R377, but it's really isn't anymore of a duplication than "Grass is Always Green" is a duplication of "Class". i.e not at all.

What did Comden and Green mean referencing "Battleship Potemkin" re Good News?

Was that a good thing or a bad thing?

Anyone see Sandy D in CANTERBURY TALES?

[quote]Will this thread EVER die?

Please go to the other current theater thread, where Matt the Loon has switched from obsessing over colorblind casting to gassing on and on about his irrational hatred of Lin-Manuel.

So with TBV closing on April 7 is that too late for something else to take the Barrymore this season in time for Tonys?

Sandy & Don

R385, in short, yes. Between the load-out of TBV and the loading of the new show, tech, and even the briefest of previews, it would be hard to do before the Tony cut off. I guess Jagged Little Pill will be taking the theater as they announced last week for the fall.

[quote] Che-rist, whatever happened to the fun gays? You remember, the ones who know what pointless bitchery is? DataLounge isn't Wikipedia. If a tall tale slips through once in awhile, it's all the more funny. I laugh like hell at some of the stuff that posters make up.

Gay men still tell tall tales, like "yeah, I'm over 18" and "yeah, I'm clean down there" along with the ever-popular "yes, I got tested yesterday and I'm negative."

R381 Joan McCracken was a great dancer, but her sense of pitch is on the level of Donna Murhpy's. If you've ever herd McCracken on the OCR of "Bloomer Girl" singing "T'Morra, T'Morra", you'd have thought it was an 8-year old bratty girl.

Murphy's

heard -- damn, too much Super Bowl, not enough sleep.

R389: Her brother Phil was the singer in that family.

Here's a musical number that's as much fun as "Pass That Peace Pipe."

Well, that was part of the character, a cheeky maid. She sounds more adult in ME AND JULIET. Still no nightingale, though!

Is it Matt the loon that hates LMM in paragraph form? Or does every loon become Matt after ranting one time too many?

I really like both The Grass is Always Greener and The Apple Doesn't Fall, but they really are basically the exact same song. Even the orchestration is eerily similar. I think Grass is much funnier, though. You could literally put two monkeys on stage to sing that and I bet it would at least get a few chuckles.

Marilyn Cooper was more fun than a barrelfull of monkeys actually. She was great!

I always liked how Bacall seemed ok with Cooper completely stealing that entire scene from her (then again, she DOES get the great "I've already had your husband" line). I've always heard she was a raging cunt off stage/set, but she seemed to be fairly generous with her castmates.

r396 I don't think it's Matt because he stopped after two posts. Just someone who likes to read his thoughts, and re-read them, and re-read them.

I am r1 of #341. I'm surprised this thread is still going.

It's just another place to post. People are probably flipping between the two until this one fill up, depending on which one has new posts. Don't worry-- it'll be over by about # 600.

R378 They said this in their Evening with Comden and Green which was quite wonderful and I saw it a number of times at The Little Theater. Betty said it right before they did The French Lesson and would roll her eyes.

Carol pulling a Sharon Stone.

If we can at least get this thread to 500 before the other one reaches 600 we MIGHT be able to finish this one off before going to thread #342.

Who knew that an attempt to be hate free would be such a curse on a theater thread.

R329, how could you post that clip of Lisa Stansfield? She makes a mockery of the word “pailletted”!

Does anyone....still wear....

[quote]then again, she DOES get the great "I've already had your husband" line)

But then Cooper tops her in the encore with “you’ve already had my husband,” thus walking away with the song.

Sylvia replaces it with "Schiaparelli".

My pet pailletted gown!

Well Sylvia Syms completely loses the internal rhyme of “pet” with paillette with that change.

Wonder if Joan McCracken had lived and Verdon never showed up, would Fosse have created shows for Joan like REDHEAD and CHARITY?

I had no idea Sylvia Syms had died onstage at the Algonquin during a standing ovation?

Big whoop.....

Well, McCracken was ten years older than Verdon. She would have really been too old for Verdon’s 1950s roles, and by the time of Sweet Charity, she would have been a year shy of 50. Gwen was also a lot prettier than McCracken.

Morgana goes with "Givenchy"....

I said LIKE those shows, meaning vehicles more appropriate for her looks and personality. In other words, making her into a star.

The song cut from Peter Pan was discussed on Theater Talk on a show about about Mary Martin. The guests, including Sondra Lee probably went too far calling Mary non-entity off stage and discussed. her lesbian side.

That episode of Theater Talk has never been available on line, so Mary's daughter and grandkids are unusually protective of Martin's reputation

It's up on YouTube (from the Alison Williams dud). It's a nice song, but, yes, sad.

When will Aurora Spiderwoman come back?

It's in Lee's book that Martin didn't want the song because it got absolutely no applause. Lee claims Martin said it to her personally. Also that a number that she(Lee) was having a huge success with was cut. What could Martin's descendants think of the recent biography? It's got lesbian Mary there warts and all. At least she's presented honestly as an ambitious Broadway star and not nothing more than America's sweetheart.

Lee says practically nothing about the creation of Dolly and Channing which is shocking because she was there the entire tryout of one of the most successful musicals of the 20th Century. Yet goes on to talk about how wonderful Rogers was. This goes against everything I've heard about Rogers as a diva. I never saw Reilly's one man show but the one time I heard him describe Dolly in rehearsals he seemed it say it was pure hell.

[quote] I had no idea Sylvia Syms had died onstage at the Algonquin during a standing ovation?

Amateur

r410 Singers missing internal rhymes are a pet peeve. Fairly common in Sondheim.

I think Joan McCracken has the “It” factor in Good News, but I have no idea if she did onstage. The relationship with Fosse was played out before Verdon came along, and given Fosse’s track record,if it hadn’t been Verdon, it would have been someone else, ie, he wouldn’t have been together with McCracken in the mid-late 50s and probably would not have pushed her as he did Verdon. Verdon was coming off her Tony-winning big break in Can-Can when she and Fosse met, and she was ripe for stardom. By the time Fosse had power, McCracken was well into her second decade in NY. If stardom was going to happen for her - real stardom - it would have happened in the 40s.

But it’s kind of an unanswerable question. She had diabetes, and had to stop dancing by the mid-50s. Her reviews in the few non-musical shows she did were always mixed, and Hollywood had already passed on her.

Verdon was also leggier(and taller I assume) than McCracken which helps to get a choreographer and audience excited. Also wasn't McCracken the 'girl who falls down' in the original cast of Oklahoma? I always found it a sly dig at Balanchine though I know DeMille loved his work.

This. This is what I love about Datalounge. Talking about why some Broadway stars from years gone by made it bigger than others.

Gwen at the time of Damn Yankees was also a solid belter, a much better singer than McCracken ever was. She even made an album of standards, The Girl I Left Home For, on RCA around that time--it's pretty great. Yes, you can hear her voice severely deteriorate if you listen to her cast recording discography in chronological order, but at the time she and Fosse met, she still could make plenty of sound and was an expressive singer.

Richard Rodgers once sent a telegram to McCracken that said lovingly, but truthfully with regard to her wayward pitch, "B flat, C natural -- what's the difference?" during Me & Juliet.

Never heard that lesbian Mary had warts! Wonder where the biographer dug that up?

[quote]Reed, who has not seen “Hamilton” but read it, criticizes the musical as just the latest piece of entertainment that is sympathetic to slave owners. “I say this is a successor to ‘Gone With the Wind,'” he said. “But at least in ‘Gone With the Wind,’ Hattie McDaniel had a speaking part.”

And an Oscar, which Lin won't be getting this year.

Well do you expect us to be discussing World Series and athletes from a hundred years ago?

anything to pass the time

Life is what you do...

Npw THERE's a very good score. Maybe not one for the ages, but head and shoulders above anything on Broadway today.

Coming to Bway, 2020....

GOOD MEWS!

Cat-tastic, raves Miss Brantley!

Not since..... CATS!

Verdon was also a superb actress and a friend told me that at least when he saw her in "Damn Yankees" that her voice was huge. This was before the effects of smoking started to really show in her voice, apparent on her next OCR of "New Girl in Town". But her acting in "New Girl" was compared favorably to Garbo in "Anna Christie". Girl could act. And dance.

R426 Good to hear you agree with what my friend, a theater professor had said when he saw Verdon live. Plus Gwen in her previous show "Can-Can", in the only song Lilo wasn't able to get taken away from her, "If You Loved Me Truly", Gwen actually has a head voice in the verse as she is singing with Hans Conried. I think it's her smoking that led to her voice starting to have problems by the time of "New Girl" and "Redhead". But the thing is, even with some weakening of the voice, she's an excellent singing actress. She gets the feeling and the song across, and her less sturdy vocal approach seems actually endearing--especially in "Redhead", where her charm is abundant.

R411 Gwen Verdon was a huge star and had already won 3 Tonys when she made it part of her signing to to do "Redhead" that Fosse direct it as well as do the dances. It was his first directing gig, and it was Gwen who got it for him. Of course, she won her 4th Tony in 6 years for "Redhead".

Michelle Williams IS Gwen.

Sam Rockwell IS Fosse.

Please, god, don't let them fuck it up.

Another.

Last one.

I have to say, they both look better than I thought they would. Of course we’ve yet to hear them speak (Verdon's voice was pretty distinctive) or see them in motion.

R243, they run talent out of town. They don’t want talent, they want obedience. The audience wants talent, but they don’t know what they’re missing.

It is a shame that Larson didn't live long enough to adapt The Tales of Hoffman to the modern world.

Now there was some unwelcome talent.

And as operas go Hoffman deserves a modern rewrite with all the singing death metaphors and the robot girlfriend and all that shit.

For crying out loud - this isn't even to 500 yet?

I'm not sure about that. Today's audience's have less interest in old films with great talent and I've heard they won't even watch black and white films.

Warner's and Twentieth Century Fox have so many great color films in their back catalogue which at this point I doubt we'll ever see on blue ray because the audience has died off.

I keep looking in vain for so many gorgeous Technicolor films on bluray and all I see in upcoming releases is science fiction and graphic horror schlock.

And then they get sloppy. The recent South Pacific wasn't even taken from a Todd AO uncut print but a cut version and Warner's won't do a restoration of the Cinerama print of the Brother's Grimm because it's not worth it financially. But can't Warner's do it for its historical value? Guess not.

The Mary Martin bio never says in a definitive way that she was gay. It lays out all the evidence and allows readers to decide. There are stalwart fans who insist she was straight, but imho they're crazy.

The Todd Purdum bio of Rodgers and Hammerstein treats Martin's lesbianism as fact--I think this is mostly via quotes from his sources.

I think she was just married to a gay man. Her lesbianism isn't really linked to any lesbian relationships is it?

i mean being best friends with Nancy Reagan is hardly actual bisexuality.

Yes, it is, r448. She is linked to Janet Gaynor in a lesbian relationship.

Wasn't Mary also a dear friend of Jean Arthur, who was also suspected of......lesbiansim?!

[quote]And then they get sloppy. The recent South Pacific wasn't even taken from a Todd AO uncut print but a cut version and Warner's won't do a restoration of the Cinerama print of the Brother's Grimm because it's not worth it financially. But can't Warner's do it for its historical value? Guess not.

The South Pacific Blu-ray is from a 65mm source albeit a cut one. The uncut version is from 70mm, albeit a beet-red print. Fox's mistake was not making both versions high-definition (only the short version is) while the making-of documentary is. At least you get a choice, which is more than I can say for Disney regarding [italic]Bedknobs and Broomsticks[/italic] on Blu-ray.

And as for the claims Warner pissed away a chance for a fully complete restoration of Judy Garland's [italic]A Star Is Born[/italic] by pissing off Michael Arick who claimed to have two complete prints, I'll believe it when I see it.

And what kills me about the South Pacific version is the claim that the elements of those 15 minutes were not good enough.

And I with nothing more than a google found that a complete Todd AO print was found and restored in Denmark in 2011. And I'm like what the fuck?

The rumors of a complete Star is Born have been around forever. I'm sure we'll see it when we see the original Magnificent Ambersons, Greed and 2001.

The stuff cut from 2001 was cut by Kubrick himself and so is unlikely to be seen again.

[quote]And I with nothing more than a google found that a complete Todd AO print was found and restored in Denmark in 2011. And I'm like what the fuck?

Link, please. That would be incredible if true. The Blu-ray was from 2009. If it weren't for the Disney merger, I'd be more optimistic about a redo.

Yes I know about Kubrick cutting it himself. But it was done after the film opened. So it would be interesting to know how many theaters were playing it at that point. I know definitely two. The Uptown and the Capitol.

How many complete prints were made? Because remember they had to have prints ready to be sent to all the major cities who would shortly have their premieres. There were perhaps a number of prints that had to be cut and Kubrick had to send instructions to all the projectionists who were going to show it. Did they all toss it? Or did perhaps somebody save the cut material?

You're telling me, r442

Mary Martin ate beaver like a champ!

Mary Martin was close friends with Janet Gaynor, Cheryl Crawford, Jean Arthur , and at least acquainted with Janet Flanner. I think that ticks enough boxes to assume dyke.

Mary Martin also had a protege in Miss Dolores Gray. Gray sings "pet pailetted gown" in her version of Down In The Depths, right?

And the Lee/Lesbian ep of "Theater Talk" was linked here on YT before it was taken down.

The lyric is "pet pailetted gown". So everyone (including Dolores Gray) sing that lyric.

Morgana and Miss Syms didn't, r461.

The should do a live version on CHESS on NBC-- but played broadly for comedy, since no one is going to really believe the American named Trumper is some sort of genius.

Laura Benanti should obviously play Florence in her Melania mode.

Having two simultaneous theater threads is great. People can post the same thing twice and don't have to think of anything else to write!

I would like to see this thread go to 600 posts.

Just a touch r466?

Some people are not alone on wanting this thread to eventually fill up.

I wonder if it will outlast #342....

All it takes is a few Bajours here.

Or, "The Yearling" - here's Barbra singing one of its actually very fine songs despite the show being a huge flop.

Barbra simply did/does not have the verve of Miss Lisa Kirk......

Lisa Kirk is a delight.

R469 Babs still looking great before the Universal horror film mad scientist plastic surgery.

I second what R471 said! Thank you for posting that R470.

NT Follies to transfer to NYC.

The recent Martin biography quotes a maid, or someone as visiting of walking in by accident and finding Mary and Janet Gaynor being more friendly than ever possible in public.

The bigger suprise: Mary's husband was as gay as Truman Capote.

Uh ... Richard Halliday being a big old vicious queen is hardly news to some of us, r475.

Is that true, r474, or just a nasty rumor?

[quote]The lyric is "pet pailetted gown". So everyone (including Dolores Gray) sing that lyric.

Did you miss the whole discussion about this lyric, about the many singers who changed “pailetted” to a designer’s name (like Givenchy and Schiaparelli), this losing the “pet-pailette” rhyme. It was upthread just a bit.

Who said Follies was transferring? Is it coming with the UK cast or are they getting a new American cast?

At this point I regret the existence of the human species for Follies alone.

I just checked BWW, Playbill and ATC and saw nothing about a Follies transfer. I did learn though that The Hollywood Bowl will be doing Into the Woods this summer, John Doyle will direct The Cradle Will Rock off-Broadway at CSC this spring with Tony Yazbeck and Lara Pulver among others and the Tina Turner musical is going to transfer to Broadway from London.

When are we getting a Mama Cass musical?

476 I met Mary Martin after Halliday died. So I knew he was gay, but not so obvious. In the biography, either Yul Brynner or Ezio Pinza upon meeting Halliday for the first time were shocked.

So tell us about your meeting with her!

R483 Why would Yul Brynner be shocked? He posed nude for a gay photographer and his photos are on the internet!

Yup was hung like a horse!

Ding dong, Yul calling!

Of course, Yul should be on the other thread about the pubic hair. What a nice bush too!

Anastasia is finally closing next month after bleeding money and rhinestones for the past year. It will not have recouped.

Will "Girl From The North Country" sneak in there before the TONY deadline?

Men who even trim their pubic hair should be jailed.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Yul did a bit of hustling on the side.

Even if they saved it, I think it's in his will not to alter his films.

To whom were you replying, r492?

Where does "Jagged Little Pill" go? Longacre or Broadhurst?

In the photo above, Brynner still had some hair on top. By the time of TKAI, he had little hair on top but still on the sides and played early previews that way. It was the show's costume designer, the superb Irene Sharaff, who suggested that just shaving it all would give a more imposing appearance.

Rex Harrison played the King in the film Anna and the King of Siam with a full head of hair as undoubtedly would have Alfred Drake, who declined the role and sent R&H on search for someone else. Drake eventually played the part on Broadway for a couple of weeks when Brynner went on vacation.

As above, the young Brynner as photographed by the distinguished fashion and commercial photographer George Platt Lynes:

One more of Yul by Lynes. There are many more out there to be found with a simple Google image search.

The picture at r496 looks like Yul is giving us a preview of his "hustler" look.

R492 yes you're probably right. What I found on an excellent series of short films on the making of the film on you tube was that he demanded all the models used be destroyed so that they could not be used for other films. However the revolving space station was found in some junk yard or some such place. Instead of grabbing it the person who found it just took pictures. It was shortly after vandalized by some kids who destroyed it. Not so sure if I buy this story. It's a bit difficult to tell if it really was the object. And if Kubrick was so careless wouldn't somebody have grabbed it themselves instead of just bringing it to a junk yard?

Also I thought the Dawn of Man was filmed on location in some national park by a second unit director. However it was directed by Kubrick in the studio using an ingenious back screen process. What is frustrating about the doc is they discuss using Karajan's version of The Blue Danube instead of Alex North's score. Of course you want to know about this but the most iconic music perhaps in all of movies using classical music is Bohm's recording of the 20th Century's Strauss Thus Spoke Zarathustra. Nothing about this is discussed unless I somehow missed it.

Anastasia didn't recoup?

For real?

We're up to 500 posts. I can see the "Bajour!" from here.

And Yul supposedly diddled an underage Sal Mineo when they were both in King and I.

Hmmm. Even if Sal Mineo had closed the run, he would have been only 15.

The only essential NT Follies performers to me are Janie Dee and Josephine Barstow. The Buddy was very good as well. It would be nice for Vicky Clark to play Sally and perhaps be recorded in the role.

It's strange to think that a Christine (from Phantom) is now playing Hattie in Follies. Claire Moore is taking over at the National. I wish Tracey Bennett wasn't returning. She was effective enough but I'm bored of her not even especially distinguished Judy Garland turn.

It would be lovely to have someone like Karen Morrow as Hattie if the NT Follies transfers.

North's unused 2001 score is a masterpiece of film music (like just everything else he wrote). To compare it with THE BLUE DANUBE is pointless, but at least the score was recorded for posterity.

I can't imagine anyone better than Vicky Clark for Sally. Karen Morrow's also a lovey idea for Hattie.

Why are there two Theatre Gossip threads going on?

[quote]Lisa Kirk is a delight.

My Grandmother was Lisa's Aunt.

What's your point, r502? I said "underage." And he was indeed in the cast, as a replacement for Prince Chulalongkorn.

Trying to work out that relationship, r509. Did your grandmother have any fun stories?

Good news.....

I've never heard North's score. Supposedly he didn't even know his score wasn't being used until he saw the film at its premiere. It's a cd I'll have to get.

Per the NYTimes today, Anastasia did not recoup and has an "unusually ambitious" touring schedule. "It is now on tour in the United States and running in Madrid and Stuttgart, Germany; there are runs planned in Holland, Korea, Japan, Mexico, Australia and Brazil." Who knew there were enough 30something women who loved the 1997 movie to support all those productions?

That is sad about Anastasia.

BTW - I really had no idea who Joan McKracken was until the other thread's mashup video. So thanks McKrack troll! Keep pushing.

The similarity to Debbie Reynolds really is remarkable.

Here's a taste for you, r513.

r502 I was surprised at how underage Mineo was. No one is questioning the veracity of your claim. This is, after all, a gossip thread.

r519 was meant for r510.

[quote]Rex Harrison played the King in the film Anna and the King of Siam with a full head of hair as undoubtedly would have Alfred Drake, who declined the role and sent R&H on search for someone else. Drake eventually played the part on Broadway for a couple of weeks when Brynner went on vacation.

That's why it's no coincidence Marni Nixon dubbed the female leads in both [italic]The King and I[/italic] and [italic]My Fair Lady[/italic] on screen.

I really love the film of Good News but, my god, are those costumes (and hairstyles) awful!

For a film set during The Roaring Twenties, the clothes couldn't be any mnore firmly anchored in 1947. And this was just a few years before teenagers really developed a "look" for their own generation so most of the girls in the film look disconcertingly middleaged.

Compare the perfect period costuming of The Boyfriend by Shirley Russell in the clip just below the Good News clip. Even though the film was made in the early 1970s (a horrible period for clothing, btw), the costumes look very authentically from the 1920s.

I'm guessing many of them were, r522.

Does Brooks Ashmanskas still have a partner?

His tits still have each other.

There's a 1930 film version of Good News with members of the original cast that I enjoy more than the 1947 version, although I do like that too due to the cast and musical arrangements. I agree with the design criticism above; it's so bad it's hard to believe it's from the Freed Unit. But it was considered a low budget film when it was made and yet did surprisingly well at the box office.

Anyway, the 1930 version is much more organic, despite the technical limitations of early talky film making. Since it was pre-code. it's also quite racy in places. There's an excellent surviving print that lacks the finale, which was filmed in a color process.

Below, the 1930 Varsity Drag.

That's absolutely wonderful!

Bless them for (mostly) showing the dancers in full length. I loathe the way dance is edited to death in films now. I want to see the dancers, not their ankles or their wrists or their shoulders.

Lens Dunham as Regan McNeill and Andy Randells as Father Karras in EXORCIST! THE MUSICAL!!

R526 I don't know who is leading the "Varsity Drag" in that clip; she's cute, but I think Lina Lamont would have sung it better!

Singing in the Rain, made in 1952, has wonderful and witty costumes that are true to the 1920s (at least for a 1950s film).

R530, That's Penny Singleton who later played Blondie in a long series of films and later was the voice of Jane Jetson.

Thanks, r532. I started to mention Penny Singleton in my post but I thought it was long enough as it was. Here's Singleton leading the title number. The video quality is not as good as the Varsity Drag clip but don't stop before Al "Rubber Legs" Norman 's solo.. R528's comment about displaying the dancers in full is excellently represented here.

The film's star was the well known Bessie Love and it is much, much closer to what Broadway audiences in 1927 would have seen than the Freed film. The film was suppressed for many years because of its pre-Code content. At one point it was considered a lost film.

They tried Good News as a revival in the mid 70s by the same people who did No, No Nanette. It starred the ancient Alice Faye and John Payne although the young performers did the heavy lifting. The ingenue was Marti Rolph who played Young Sally in Follies. See how we can always bring it back to that show? Good News was a huge, huge flop.

Rolph sang beautifully but the only real showstopper was Stubby Kaye who sang the shit out of "Keep Your Sunnyside Up" and it was far more deserving of classic status than "Sit Down You're Rocking the Boat".

Penny Singleton toured in Nanette in Ruby's role.

Not all of the producers and creative team of No No Nanette were involved with the Good News revival. And it showed. It was so dreary.

One word.....

I saw the Alice Faye/John Payne Good News on Broadway. It's been discussed in these threads many times. It toured for a year before New York but by the time it opened in New York, Gene Nelson had replaced Payne who still had health problems from an awful car strike on Madison Avenue.

Good News was a curious show for me. I was new to New York and had never seen a show where all the individual elements, ALL -- sets, costumes, orchestrations, choreography, cast, etc., etc. -- were all individually wonderful yet none of it worked together to jell into a whole. I was young and hadn't realized such a thing was possible.

Still glad I saw it though, so many wonderful things and I love Alice Faye. But it didn't work. It was an education.,

R535, I saw the second national tour of Nanette with Evelyn Keyes in Keeler's role, with Benny Baker, Betty Kean and a superb Loni Ackerman in Helen Gallagher's role. It was fabulous. Some of the leads by that time were replacements. Ackerman was Cyma Rubins' daughter but her casting was obviously not an act of mere nepotism.

That 1930 Varsity Drag is fascinating, primitive, hilarious and FABULOUS, all at once!

Loni!

To the person above who asked why there are two Theater Gossip threads, the original thread 339 devolved quickly into a huge mess fucked up by loons on both sides about diversity casting. Thanks to the OP of this alternative thread which has been enormously entertaining with lots of wonderful clips.

Loni's BA.....

More Penny........

Mary Martin was the godmother to Yul's son, Rock.

And she encourages Rogers and Hammerstein to cast him in The King and I.

They were together again at the Tony Awards just before Yul died.

[quote]don't stop before Al "Rubber Legs" Norman 's solo

Dear Al. He could always thrown those rubber legs in the air higher than anyone else. And wider.

r543 My idol!

R546: Joke from the era of the Eldergays:

Question: What is it in the air in San Francisco that keeps women from getting pregnant?

Answer: Men's legs.

From the same era:

Q: Why do so many gay men wear mustaches?

A: To hide the stretch marks around their mouths.

The woman who introduced "Varsity Drag" in the original Broadway production of Good News, Zelma O'Neal, got to repeat another song she introduced, "Button Up Your Overcoat" in the film version of "Follow Thru."

Her "good pal," Dorothy Lee, was quoted as saying, years later, "Poor Zelma. A million-dollar personality, but twenty-five cent looks."

She must have enjoyed working with him on Lute Song, r545.

Oh dear, youtube attributes that clip to the Lute Song "soundtrack."

One of the chorus girls in "Lute Song," who no doubt got her talented lips around the massive Brynner man meat more than once, was Nancy Davis.

More Zelma....

Or you could just watch Vera-Ellen tapping en pointe, doing acrobatics, twirling, jumping off a platform and recovering with utmost grace, doing the fastest nerve taps while smiling as though she's doing absolutely nothing when in fact they are among the most difficult tap-wise thing to do, etc., etc.

The Gypsy movie is back on again with Amy Sherman Palladino directing. Start pitches Roses, Louises, Herbie, Junes, and Mazeppas.

Valerie Harper as Mazeppa

I'd actually love it if all the strippers were in their 60's-80's. That'd be hilarious and sad to see these old broads out their bumping and grinding. Plus, we could get some great cameos out of that concept.

Jackee as Electra

Rita Rudner, who can really dance, as Tessie Tura

Goldie Hawn as Tessie Tura

Joanne Worley as Mazeppa

Ruth Buzzi as Electra

Oh, I like the Goldie Hawn idea! With Diane Keaton and Bette as the other two strippers.

Thanks, r555 - that's a wonderful clip. I've seen Vera-Ellen in the Astaire movies but that was just amazing.

You're welcome. There's an even longer version of that which focuses more on the Goldwyn girls, though Vera does do some more dancing; her singing was dubbed in movies as it didn't jive with her image. But she did sing on Broadway -- she sounded more like an Ado Annie from "Oklahoma" in her recordings from "A Connecticut Yankee". But yeah, Vera-Ellen is probably my favorite all-around female dancer. Fred Astaire said she could do any type of dance you wanted her to do. She also was great with Donald O'Connor in "Call Me Madam" and with Gene Kelly, especially doing the very different style of "Slaughter on Tenth Avenue".

Rita Rudner can indeed really dance. Like Chris Walken, she got her start as a Broadway dancer, By the early '80s, she was featured as a replacement performer in the original Broadway Annie. Here she is with Betty Hutton and Gary Beach. Go, Gary, go!

Here's Vera and Fred, doing what is actually considered one of the most difficult, intricate partnering dance Astaire ever did, since it required more tap precision than what he did (admittedly wonderfully) with Ginger Rogers and most of Fred's female partners, besides Eleanor Powell and Jane Powell, were tappers. This is the final section of the Courier and Ives section from the "Belle of New York".

correction: most of Astaire's partners were NOT tappers.

Kelly Bishop for Rose!

I'd like a GYPSY that's truly age appropriate for once: A Rose in her 30s, a teen Louise etc.

Shit... might Sherman Palladino cast Sutton Foster as Rose?!

or even a Tina Louise!

Walken was a highly successful child performer on TV in the 1950s. But yes, his later career stemmed from when switched to Broadway and trained as a dancer.

It's a shame Michelle Pfeiffer's aged out. Can Kate Winslet belt? CZJ's stock in film is too low.

If they get someone as famous as Ariana Grande for Louise, maybe Rose could be.... Toni Collette.

Damn, the 1930 Varsity Drag seems to have been pulled since last night. Violation of Warner's copyright.

Walken's dancing is god awful. He clearly got his roles from his beautiful mid 60s Andy Warhol hustler looks(which really surprised me but explained everything.) His performance in Peter Pan made it seem that he had never seen a musical let alone be in one.

The male version of a producer's girlfriend with who can't dance getting a job in the chorus.

R566 I was wondering what you meant by Eleanor Powell not being a tapdancer.

By the way I like the costumes in Good News but clearly they are the 40s not the 20s. But it's clearly a 40s musical in terms of some of the songs and the big band sound. They did not stint on the Salinger musical arrangements which the mono sound did not pick up that well. Also McCracken's Pass that Peace Pipe dress is wonderful.

The Pierrette number shows why The Boy Fried was not a hit and too Ken Russell bizarre for the audience that loved old fashioned musicals. They found it too off-putting. I loved it.

Caitlyn Jenner for Rose. Why must we always be slighted?

God like a drunk uncle got up to do a song and dance routine at a holiday party mortifying everyone and scarring his children for life.

Hardly, r579.

Totally, like somebody singing an entire song flat. Just the ugliest moves.

Chacun à son goût, r581.

[quote] Valerie Harper as Mazeppa

Who will be killed-off halfway through and replaced by Sandy Duncan.

I've seen the 1930 "Good News" and Bessie Love is a great Babe. She appeared in a number of early musicasl, including "The Hollywood Revue", "Chasing Rainbows" and "They Learned About Women" and, In 1929, she was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Actress for "The Broadway Melody".

A former co-worker ( in a restaurant), once did a production of "Hamlet" with Walken at the Shakespeare festival in Ct. He told me no man in tights was safe when Walken was around. Lots of running around the barn, lots of grabbing and groping. He nailed a few of them. too.

[quote] Courier and Ives

Oh, dear!

That is a good point. Cast a star as Louise and Herbie and give Rose to someone who might not be a star, but who can actually act/sing it.

Academy Award winner Anne Hathaway is Rose

Our little alternative theater thread is nearly filled.

I've certainly done MY part!

I've recognized your touch throughout, Corelle.

Honestly, Anne Hathaway isn't a bad choice if they get someone who's a legit teen or early 20-something for Louise. Anne's still young enough to pull off the 1st act and old enough to age into the act 2 portion.

r555: I love that clip. Vera-Ellen expresses such joy in dance. And it's great to see her original nose before she gets it bobbed before THE KID FROM BROOKLYN.

( I wish this were the entire number)

And introducing "You Make Me Feel So Young" in THREE LITTLE GIRLS IN BLUE. Harold Lang had been signed for a supporting part but unfortunately had to withdrew due a theater commitment - he was replaced by non-dancer Charles Smith (who, despite having a substantial role, received no screen credit)

[quote]someone who might not be a star, but who can actually act/sing it.

You rang?

Adele, no one wants to hear you shriek the score from Gypsy.

Toni Collette and Kate Winslet are both great ideas for Rose. I know Kate sings, and Toni has a great voice.

Whoop-Up!

Kate and Toni would probably both be excellent. With our luck, they'll get fucking Meryl. Ugh.

I not only have a touch, r592, I also have a look!