AA Judgmental Slogans

You’re sick as your secrets.

Antidepressants are the killer of your spirit.

"At least we not on opioids."

r2, That is sad. Perhaps they think if you were drinking or using to self medicate(duh) if your depression or anxiety is cured or significantly reduced, you won't be so dependent on AA? Scientology also bashes psych meds.

"Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth"

When you rationalize, you tell yourself rational lies.

You're best thinking got you here .

We're here because we're not all there.

Making a list of your character defects.

13th step is a slip.

We must. We must. We must increase our busts.

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.

The mid '80s slogan was the worst "AA is better than A-I-D-S."

Keep it simple stupid.

First Things First.

Wow, the judgment fairly oozes out of that one.

Faith without works is dead. This one is awful.

Um r2 is bullshit

Everyone is in denial. Everyone is alcoholic. If they never drank, they are a dry drunk. Everyone needs to be in "recovery." What a SCAM.

[quote]Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.

R12 Is this AA’s defense against their dismal 5% success rate? It sounds like the guilt-tripping that victims of pyramid schemes go through.

[quote]5% success rate

Link, please?

I’d like to know how stats are gathered for an anonymous group that has no leader

"The mid '80s slogan was the worst "AA is better than A-I-D-S.""

That is DESPICABLE. I did know a guy who had his HIV test and shared at a gay meeting and he was sobbing and scared. The lack of empathy and even one asshole who said "it's totally preventable.. you were high on meth and didn't give a shit" Although, it's true.. it certainly shows a lack of sensitivity . It's the lack of compassion in AA/NA that burns me.

Are you willing to do whatever I tell you to do?_ Sponsor talk. They will not call you, you have to call them. You know they are too self centered to care in many cases. If you show someone too much attention, compassion etc ... you need Alanon.

Lance Dodes, MD is the researcher that came up with the 5-10% success rate, but that includes the large percentage of people who leave the program early on when they realize it’s full of cultish, pseudo-religious bullshit, R20.

AA is more important than my family, because without AA I would have no family...

I heard it from a woman who was taking a cake for many years and her family was behind and and you should have seen the look on their faces.

She is into AA like she was into her booze. See the problem?

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves."

This is mandatory reading at the beginning of the meeting. But you should see all the return newcomers doing the stand up of shame.

The worst thing about AA is that it teaches you that you have "defects of character". As an alike my self-esteem was already in the toilet due to pretty significant amount of childhood abuse. I needed to learn to love myself enough to not drink. AA doesn't do that. They also teach you that you are always in recovery and that relapse is a part of recovery (it shouldn't be). I'm ten years sober and I'm recovered. It doesn't mean that I can ever drink again. Luckily I have less than zero desire to do so. Seek out the works of Dr.Gabor Mate, Lifering and/or Smart Recovery. AA is scientology for drunks.

R24 Not to mention the smoking at meetings and the gambling at AA socials. When you transfer the addiction to a “higher power,” that power usually ends up at the blackjack table.

r26 NAILS IT and your post will be helpful to MANY!!

Well, you drank or used everyday.... This was a response on meeting attendance. I really believe the so called old timers are miserable and they love to bully. And there are many people who come in broken and vulnerable and these types prey on them.

Um [R2] is bullshit

A lot of people in AA frown on "anything that effects you from the neck up"

"I am so blessed that God made me an alcoholic "

The great thing about the internet and social media is that AA/NA no longer can deceive . There is plenty of info on its destructiveness . It helps some, but those who are truly well rounded in 12 step programs do the minimum . They are not easily coerced .

The word HUMBLE or HUMILITY takes on a different meaning in AA. It usually denotes shame and feeling low self esteem.

They have blackjack at the meetings?

Both my parents got and stayed sober in AA, so I saw it work. With one degree of separation I was able to appreciate how it helped but also be glad I didn't need to be a member.

I never had a problem with alcohol, so they closest I ever got was spending with my parents around others in the program. Some were cool and others were not but that's no different than all parts of life.

In the end I'm glad I grew up with two parents who realized they had a problem and dealt with it. Life wasn't perfect once they got sober, but I'm sure it would have been worse if they hadn't.

You'll always be a drunk like your father.

[quote]You’re sick as your secrets.

That BS is untranslatable in French or German. That's probably the reason AA/NA never took off in France or Germany.

Also

[quote]If you hang around the barbershop, you're bound to get a haircut.

And

[quote]One day at a time.

Yeah like I want to emulate the Germans when it comes to booze lol 🙄

I went to Gamblers Anonymous once years ago and was scared of what looked like a lifetime, nightly commitment so I didn’t return until many years later when my gambling problem got worse. I committed to it and it worked for 5 solid years. I stopped going and started gambling again. Been gambling off and on since then. Maybe I should’ve stayed in the problem. I’d be $15,000 richer if I had,

"You don't go into the whorehouse to listen to the piano player" or "I was as fucked up as a soup sandwich".

Thank you R28

NO CROSS-TALK!!

R42 haha

[quote]13th step is a slip.

A dick slip, maybe. I've never heard of being called a slip.

[quote]I heard it from a woman who was taking a cake for many years

Should she have been at OA, r24?

[quote]Faith without works is dead. This one is awful.

r16 That's the Catholic Church, not AA.

Sponsors telling their sponsees to pick up the dog shit in their sponsor’s yard.

You'll have plenty of time to drink when you're LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

[quote]Sponsors telling their sponsees to pick up the dog shit in their sponsor’s yard.

Say WHAT?

Is this some sort of misguided metaphor?

R.E.S.P.E.C.T. find out what it means to me.

A lot of these are true though.

I went to an AA meeting once and in the middle of his share, this dude whipped out his iPhone and played the theme to ONE DAY AT A TIME while he sang along. We all just sat and stared.

There is a big AA group on the west coast Brentwood where the men are not allowed to have facial hair and I’ve heard they do pick up dog poop haven’t seen the dog poop thing with my own eyes but the facial hair thing is true.

Apparently sentence structure doesn’t matter in the west coast Brentwood.

They pick up dog poop as a public service or to just collect it. I'm confused.

Just stop going to the meetings. I did and couldn’t be happier. My shrink is trained in addiction counseling so it helps to have him in my corner. You don’t have to go to AA meetings. No one is holding a gun to your head.

AA was always a favorite of foreign disinformation. This thread reeks of it.

The AA bashers by those who know nothing about it- because the only way they really can, is if they are alcoholic. By the way, it really is anonymous. There are people around you every day who go to meetings and you will never know- because you do not need to know. And why demean something dedicated to helping those seeking help? Why?

In AA my ex remained sober, and I went to Al Anon in the beginning of our relationship in support. There were plenty of good things in there for life in general.

I did observe that my ex and his sober friends didn't have much tolerance for the BS or excuses that drunks use. He spoke a lot about humility--never humiliation.

"I did observe that my ex and his sober friends didn't have much tolerance for the BS or excuses that drunks use."

Define "drunks" and sounds terribly self righteous and judgmental to me..

Someone brings dog shit to AA meetings in Brentwood? Surely you mean Brentwood, PA, NY, or TN, and not Brentwood, CA, 90049.

Wow. What's happened in the world? Really?

If you don't think AA is an effective thing or a good thing--just don't go. It's not required by law. There is not a fine if you don't go.

It is strange to see people taking such exited glee in tearing down AA. Aren't there better and more interesting things to judge and tear down?

These comments feel very Trumpian in tone. Like how he is about the democrats. Delightedly hating something that he doesn't really understand. But always being so focused on tearing it down in every way. 100%. Ha ha ha suckers!

Telling us always he is certain the entire enterprise has no value at all. It is always doing ill. It is clearly harmful. Or it is a joke.

That's what all this feels like on these threads.

I know why Trump is like this towards the democrats. He is scared and threatened.

So what's up with you?

And AA?? Of all the things to go after? AA? It is kind of hilarious. And baffling.

Again? What has happened to the world?

R62, people in AA hear that if the program does not help them stay sober it is because they are not doing the necessary work. They hear stories of people who leave and drink themselves to death. Leaving the program often means loss of social network, conflict with loved ones (who think AA is necessary), and self-doubt.

So sometimes, leaving AA is a messy breakup.

So there is a stage where they have to separate. And it can involve negativity.

Like with your Trump example, it is about something emotional that is different from what the speaker is conscious of.

Reading this can be helpful to people who know they should leave AA but are afraid to.

But why someone who is not either someone wanting to leave the program or someone who has left it is beyond me.

As you say, its not required by law to read this thread if it is not for you.

From the Interwebs, R60: DRUNK: a person who is drunk or who habitually drinks to excess.

There is a cunt in AA whom I detest. She is the most judgmental asshole I've ever met in my life. Former heroin addict who you'd think was Lady Di.

There’s a lot of cunts in AA should be called Cunt Tay

AA sucks and there are other, more effective ways to get and stay sober. Without the platitudes, cigarette smoke and bitter attitudes.

r67, AMEN!!

Fill your hole in your soul with positive , self affirming beliefs. Find people who don't drink or use(at least not abnormally ) and create your own support group. 12 steps teaches powerlessness and you are broken and will always be broken and one drink or drug away every day.

[quote]AA sucks and there are other, more effective ways to get and stay sober. Without the platitudes, cigarette smoke and bitter attitudes.

I haven't smelled smoke in an AA meeting since the 1980s.

They preach "principles before personalities" but then there is a photo of Bill W. in almost every room.

Your best thinking got you here.

Fake it til you make it.

I’m telling you NOW so I don’t have to tell you THEN!

Since the 2000s, the smoking is all done outside the door so that you only get the acrid smell as you leave.

Don't quit before the miracle.

Not everybody gets sober.

Sober means AA

If you want what we have, do what we do.

If you want what we have and are willing to go to ANY LENGTHS to get it

Forigners like to trash AA because they could never have something like that because of their maniacal dictators.

It’s an American thing so it’s target.

Either go or don’t. This campaign to besmirch the org is tiresome.

r80- Certifiably insane ... LOL skizo

All these threads are started by the same person. He is the only one posting. We have proved it in other threads.

It works if you WORK IT! (It doesn't work...)

Let's clean up the wreckage of our past and present.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

seeking serenity, courage and wisdom. Geez, what a bunch of judgmental assholes!

R85, I wish more members found those gifts. I pray they do along with myself .

You gotta give it away to keep it.

I knew a girl who went to AA.

But then she died.

And the uncaring members will feign sadness r88 and blame the disease and then woe is me etc. They need people to die to validate the "program"

"At least she died sober!"

Yeah, the quieter and quieter moans over the last three weeks meant she was really present to experience her death.

I’m grateful that I had AA when I needed it. It helped save my life.

Lots of sober people eventually grow out of AA. People do move on. But it’s not a bad place to start. If you have two brain cells to rub together, you understand that a lot of this stuff is useless. It really doesn’t matter.

Everyone needs a support system when cleaning up. I’d rather have attended AA, and had become sober, than to never attend, and continue drinking.

Like all groups, it becomes a microcosm of your life. You are in the center of what you hear, remember, interpret, act upon and the nature of the relationships you build in it or not. If an AA group isn't working for you, you have the option to find other groups (if available), figure out why it is not working for you and perhaps make cognitive and behavioral changes, find other options like therapy, or just leave the program. OP, it is really up to you.

""At least she died sober!"

Yeah, the quieter and quieter moans over the last three weeks meant she was really present to experience her death"

It's called martyrdom . AA loves the persecuted and inferiority complex. It appeals to their narcissistic nature .

Fake It Till You Make It.

Meeting Makers Make It.

90 meetings in 90 days for starters.

R95, I think that is meant to give the person something to do, show up for, and put some distance between themselves and the addiction (craving). It also creates a goal and each day sober really is an accomplishment when one is wrestling with the addiction. Also, each day sober is another day of self-respect and movement to overall health. I don't see how that slogan is judgmental at all.

Stinkin thinkin!!

R96, in your gas lighting attempts, you made some valid points. People who are in grip of a demonic addiction need distraction . I have no issue with using this time to renew your mind and learn new skills to enjoy life. I also believe that AA is not the only way and there are many other avenues to seek enlightenment, wisdom and self introspection. 12 steps insist they are the only true way to these so called truths. God is more powerful then any addiction. You all give so much power to your "disease" The bottom line is your life will improve drastically when you clean up.. That is a fact. Health, vitality and spirit will give you a new glow.

"Gas lighting attempts"? What the fuck? "I think" simply means WHAT FOLLOWS IS ONLY MY OPINION.

R96

Don't mean to gaslight you again....but there is nothing demonic about addiction! It is a physical addiction, usually with a strong genetic predisposition, it has NOTHING to do with demons for fuck's sake. Calling it demonic is the height of bullshit judgement. Demons exist only in your head, I hate to break this fact to you.

Then explain the "disease " which is cunning, baffling and powerful.

Read r98 again.

Shitting on different paths to justify your own is so capitalistic - like we're shopping for shoes for an obese friend who can't see his own feet.

"Seeing your part in it." I heard of a rape victim in AA being told to see her part in it. it turned out her part was holding on to the pain. Well intended but she needed no shaming at all and professional counselling to deal with the rape not some untrained AA sponsor.

Keep your side of the street clean.

"The Big Book tells me that if there anything I'm having trouble accepting the problem is with me." I knew of a guy in AA was told this by his Atlantic Group of AA sponsor when his brother died and he was grieving. Again, no professionally trained therapist would say this in this context.

""Seeing your part in it." I heard of a rape victim in AA being told to see her part in it. it turned out her part was holding on to the pain. "

It could have been worse. They could have told her her part was being loaded and at a bar etc.

One spliff a day keeps the doctor away.

Oops! Wrong thread.

r108 LOL and "cheers" in moderation is good .

A guy was talking about a friend who died of a heroin overdose and said "I hope you found what you are looking for" I could not tell if it was judgmental or compassion.

Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

R111, This passage is read in EVERY meeting - mandatory! I rarely see truly honest people in AA who are not on the cross if you know what I mean?

R112, it is not mandatory at every meeting. That is false.

"Will someone read from chapter 5"

R113 is a troll or brainwashed friend of Bill's

These are the empowering slogans one will hear during their early days and months of AA sobriety.

"We call this the honeymoon period"

You are on a pink cloud. Don't get too cocky. Your disease is getting stronger daily .

lols

I knew a woman in a Pacific Group type meeting who was told to quit taking her psych meds by her sponsor. Taking psych meds meant she wasn’t truly sober. She did stop taking her meds, and she fatally shot herself in the head in her garage. That’s when I started to pull away and not believe every word spoken in AA meetings especially by judgemental nazi sponsors.

They prey on the weak r117

"Keep coming back" said in a tone dripping with sarcasm to someone you think is an idiot.

[quote]This passage is read in EVERY meeting - mandatory!

Depends where you live. They didn't read "How It Works" in DC meetings when I got sober.

A friend told me about a person in AA who was slapped by her sponsor

It's fun to imagine what the other people at the meeting are like when they're liquored up.

[quote] R62: It is strange to see people taking such exited glee in tearing down AA. Aren't there better and more interesting things to judge and tear down?

The irony is that OP complains that AA slogans are judgmental, but this thread is full of angry, hateful, judgmental statements. Lies and distortions, too. I can’t figure out what is wrong with the anti-AA troll, but I’m sure it’s complicated.

[quote] R67: AA sucks and there are other, more effective ways to get and stay sober. Without the platitudes, cigarette smoke and bitter attitudes.

Nobody smokes indoors, troll. And you’re the bitterest person I’ve come across in a year, at least.

[quote] 82: All these threads are started by the same person. He is the only one posting. We have proved it in other threads.

Truth!

Here is a link to an short, interesting article in The Atlantic explaining how AA became such a powerful force in alcohol recovery. Here is a quote from the article:

[quote]When, as a culture, we ascribe the addict the lowest possible social value, is it any wonder why they flock to a fellowship of equally alienated individuals with common lived-experiences? Organizations like AA? It’s true addicts are deserving of treatment plans based in something more than blind faith—Dodes’s argument is more than persuasive in that regard—but pills and therapy and data and evidence aren’t necessarily enough to treat a condition so inherently linked to emotional wellbeing and self-worth. The addict, like any human, craves community. And if the greater community persists in shunning and shaming addicts, and AA remains the only door left ajar, then it’s to AA the addicts will go. And who could blame them?

I am not an alcoholic but I am a someone who has been in debt most of my life. I have been in debt for the past ten years-the longest streak in my life. I joined Debtor's Anonymous recently because I have felt very isolated most of my life. I am ashamed of my debt: my house that is falling apart, the fear if something terrible happens to one of my pets, the scary realization if something happens to my car, I will not get enough insurance money to be able to afford a replacement that is not a complete beater. I have been without a car before and although I love public transportation and walking (thank god I am in excellent health), going without a car makes it very difficult to maintain a normal life. I have also been without heat (broken furnace) for close to two years and had to rely on space heaters...my electric bill was sky high! Anyhow, sorry for making this all about me. Although I don't believe in the twelve-step idea of being powerless etc, I do find much of what I have read in the D.A. literature fits me to a "T". The group where I meet in made up of middle-ages and older folks, mostly women. They are the most humble, empathetic, and kind people I have ever encountered. There are no strong personalities, just kind people who listen. I will use D.A. as a tool, along with working with the Consumer Credit Counseling services (I haven't contacted them yet), and get another job (working on that right now). I have already sat down and added up all my debt and started tracking my spending. The fellowship of D.A. has been a catalyst for me, and like the Atlantic article stated, the addict, like any human, craves community. This community has been of great comfort for me.

It works if ya twerk it so twerk it you're worth it.

Revenge is like drinking poison and expecting it to kill the other guy...

Let’s winge on, judging an organization for being judgmental?

OP, can you understand the irony, there? You’re doing exactly what you’re complaining about. I wasn’t a proponent of AA until reading the nutty ideas expressed by the OP.

None of this ever happened. No link. Made up from whole cloth.

“I heard...”

Sure, Jan.

'It's a selfish program"

Isn't that contradictory to the steps?

Go ahead, drink the fucking drink, we don't care anymore...

Why are you here? You are just wasting valuable drinking and using time.

[quote] AA Judgmental Slogans

Most of these judging posts here are from OP.

Let go and let God

First things first

Don't drink and drive because you might spill your drink!

I loved Aa at first, it was a great place to meet other sober types. I was very young and shy. It helped me but I never worked the steps as they seemed harmful.

Stopped going for years, then returned and couldn't believe my eyes...nearly everyone was an ex felon with a major drug issue I could not relate too. Hardcore people.

After acquiring a college education the AA slogans were unbearable and maudlin. I gave it a shot, but it was a waste of time.

Judge judge your way out of AA.

Gotta love how they completely ignore how Bill W begged for booze on his deathbed! LOL!

All his years of alleged "sobriety" but, in the end, he knew it was all a lie.

Like ALL of A.A.

The biggest “judge” on here are the OP and his various alternate apparitions. The irony of him complaining about AA being judgmental, and all his judgmental posts, makes me want to sentence him to “JA”.

Oh my god. This is the old trick.

You cannot criticize me for being intolerant because that means you are intolerant of me.

You cannot say I am negative because saying that means your the negative one.

So if saying something is judgemental means you are yourself judgemental, then you cannot identify anything as wrong.

That shit only works on the playground.

^gibberish.

It's called gaslighting r142. Charles Manson used this technique on his murderous followers. He was also prone to AA slogans like "don't think" and keep it simple stupid and one day at a time.

Exactly, R144. I immediately though so, too. R142 is a great example of gaslighting.

R142 is quoting gaslighters to show what R141 is doing.

OP complains that AA is judgmental, asks for posts passing judgment on AA, and then spams the thread with dozens of such posts. When his hypocrisy is pointed out, he calls it a “trick” and plays the victim, with some nonsensical gibberish. That’s “Gaslighting”.

We get it, OP. You [italic] really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, [/italic] HATE AA.

I know r146.

Pray to a door knob until you believe in God. Not Jesus God

Sorry I think AA are a cult, I am trying to think of a slogan, but I think it was more of the sharing of biblical references and the “sin” aspect around the groups I met with, you are encouraged to give up your personality, and accept a fate you are forever a slave to booze, I don’t believe that, it presumes a person hasn’t the power to rise up ( above the cult)

Okay their doctrine might work for some people, live and let live etc. But I won’t be channeled into a Religion through guilt and pain / punishment for being human and making mistakes etc.

R150, You nailed it. There is empowerment in many faiths, including Christianity. AA and NA focus on the disease being constantly hovering around waiting to attack the addict/ alcoholic . They need people to be walking on eggshells to remain devoted to group.

AA encourages being constantly reminded of your past. That is not healthy!! There is subtle and not so subtle shaming in the rooms.

Stick with the winners...a coded slogan for snobbery and cliques. Nothing is worse than sober mean girls.

So true and lmfao @r153

We can offer you pity and pearl clutching.

[quote]Gotta love how they completely ignore how Bill W begged for booze on his deathbed! LOL!

WAIT! WHAT?!

From Wikipedia and many, many other sources:

[Quote] A heavy smoker, Wilson eventually suffered from emphysema and later pneumonia. He continued to smoke while dependent on an oxygen tank in the late 1960s. He drank no alcohol for the final 37 years of his life; however, in the last days of his life he made demands for whiskey and became belligerent when refused.

Another source:

[Quote] As he lay on his deathbed, he wanted a drink so badly that he asked his assistants to bring him one on at least five different occasions; but knowing the disastrous impact it would have on AA, they refused. His cravings were so intense that on one of these occasions he became belligerent and threatened to punch a nurse.

[Quote] A Legacy of Lies: These facts about Bill Wilson, although disturbing, are important, because all concepts, beliefs, values and methods in AA and the 12 Step Program are a reflection of what was going on in Bill's mind and life. Bill Wilson did not discover a "cure" or "great secret" for alcoholism or any other addiction. He was very clearly still a full blown addict and just switched his substance of choice and replaced his cravings for alcohol with women, sex, cigarettes, caffeine and cult-like religious fanaticism. Bill Wilson was projecting his struggles, feelings of powerlessness, depression, inadequacy and shame over his inability to control his sexual compulsions and nicotine addiction and his religious beliefs into the principles and methods, which became the 12 Step Program of Alcoholics Anonymous. One only needs to look at the words in the 12 Steps, the Big Book and the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions to see that this is true.

Read the article about his sex "addiction" and cravings.

I know that when I stopped drinking, my sweet tooth went into overdrive and I gained a significant amount of weight. But everyone kept saying, “better to eat that chocolate cake than drink alcohol...”. But who wanted to hang out with an overweight man, especially in Gay AA?

I have noticed that the more devoted to the program, the more critical thinking is diminished . They resort to short slogans. If I said this at a meeting, I would be met with the typical "keep coming back" or " You are welcome to return to your misery"

Relaspe is part of recovery

"Jails, institutions and death... ha ha ha! SO TRUE! HA ha!"

[quote] R153: Stick with the winners...a coded slogan for snobbery and cliques. Nothing is worse than sober mean girls.

More irony. The “mean girls” in this thread, accusing others in AA of being “mean girls”. OP and his lack of self awareness is a shocking display of someone who needs some kind of program. Judgers Anon, Obsessives Anon, Cunts Anon, Liars Anon, Whiners Anon, Gaslighters Anon, all come to mind. Sorry, I can’t think of a slogan that fits.

Thank you, R163, for proving that AA is not judgemental and does not have "mean girls."

A very hostile AA member @r163

I can't wait until stupid OP falls off the wagon so he'll stop with these stupid anti AA threads. Order a pitcher of Bloody Marys, Mary, and be done with it.

I’m not in AA. I can imagine that the people in AA who encountered OP, being human beings and not saints, probably quickly got tired of his whining; his blaming them for his own obstinance and refusal to take personal responsibility; his oppositional defiance disorder; general cuntery; constant lying, and they just washed their hands of him. AA isn’t the place for OP. He needs therapy, and lots and lots of meds.

r166, is probably loaded herself typing this drivel . It's so sad that another person suffering from the disease would be so heartless and hypocritical.

I quit going to AA because I couldn’t take the judging faces, the mean people, and going to meetings at 8:00 pm over by 9:30 pm driving home ugh

"No one else can understand us........ You suffer from terminal uniqueness "

I tried AA for 30 years, but I was never able to get sober. I went to three meeting a day, so I really “worked the program”, but it didn’t work for me! The meetings just made me want to drink, so I would drink every night after them. I would complain and complain at the meetings that I wasn’t getting sober, and the other members would just tell me I should stop complaining, like that was my fault, and not theirs.

I decided I didn’t want to be a weak person, like the others in the meeting. Or controlling, and angry, and bitter, like them, and told them so, to help them. They were completely ungrateful for my help! Can you believe the hypocrites? They judged me, and told me to keep drinking if I wanted to, and I did, so I did.

After firing my first 12 sponsors in my first month in AA, I felt ostracized. Nobody wanted to help me, unless I did their laundry and washed their cars! Just because I worked at a laundromat and car wash, they thought I should be happy for the business. That’s their idea of fellowship, shouldn’t that have been doing my laundry, and washing my car? No, they were too selfish.

Anyway, they were all such hateful, bitter, crazy people, I was glad to finally quit going. Only then, after I was locked up in a mental institution for 6 months, was I able to put together some clean time! I’m still sober these 13 years later, without AA. I just drink beer now, no more than I can afford, and a little weed each night, plus meth on the weekends and special occasions. And ALL WITHOUT THOSE JERKS IN AA, BECAUSE I DONT NEED ANYBODY BUT ME!

I know it was supposed to be funny, but what was written in R171 is pretty accurate for how many AA members see those who have trouble staying sober.

There are wonderful people in AA, but also people who construct elaborate justifications for not helping people in need. And their image of people asking for help is pretty close to R171.

R171 is a complation if the kind of nonsense the OP was invented in dozens of posts, in dozens of threads, for years, here. It was meant to be funny, but it’s sad in that he really has obsessively written these kind of complaints. Everything is always someone else’s fault. He’s a big victim of other people’s negativity. He lies about AA, then condemns AA, based the distortions and falsehoods he invents. And he’s obsessed. He’ll never stop.

I think he’s just a utterly obnoxious person who everybody in his meeting quickly realized was beyond the help of non-professionals, and he resents being rejected.

I always forget that only one person on DL has ever had a negative experience in AA and writes every post that is negative about the program.

There could never be two (let alone more than two) such people posting.

You also forget that we’ve been through this many times. The OP clears his cookies to comment in support of his own posts. In one incarnation, he had over 13 posts in this thread, whining-away. You’ve been shown many times to be an obsessed liar who spams threads in support of your other posts.

The problem I have with all this is that you repeatedly lie about AA. You are in fact the kind of jackass that people in AA warn others about. That organization helps millions of people who may have no other option, and by lying about it here, you discourage people from getting help they may need. All because you’re mad that you couldn’t get sober there, and you blame them, instead of accepting responsibility for your own life. Fine, be as bitter as you like, but by trying to keep others from getting the help they need, it makes you the worst kind of monster.

I am someone who has posted about negative AA experiences. I have never started a thread on AA, but I get accused of starting threads and of writing posts written by others. Anyone who knows what they are doing can see that I have not cleared my cookies or started threads.

I do not get it. It does help many people. But not everyone. Just like any human institution. Why is it so threatening to acknowledge that there are people who need to find help elsewhere?

Unless you are the one and only person making the accusations. And you have bought a dozen computers and have a dozen accounts on DL to make it look like there are more people posting that crap. Yes, that is completely credible.

I am someone who has posted about negative AA experiences. I have never started a thread on AA, but I get accused of starting threads and of writing posts written by others. Anyone who knows what they are doing can see that I have not cleared my cookies or started threads.

I do not get it. It does help many people. But not everyone. Just like any human institution. Why is it so threatening to acknowledge that there are people who need to find help elsewhere?

Unless you are the one and only person making the accusations. And you have bought a dozen computers and have a dozen accounts on DL to make it look like there are more people posting that crap. Yes, that is completely credible.

These threads get tiresome in a hurry.

It all degenerates to "You disagree with me so you are a liar."

It all degenerates to “You have been caught lying in the past. You have been caught pretending to be a second person, commenting in support of yourself as a first person, by mistakenly failing to clear your cookies correctly.”

When was I caught pretending to be a second person? Someone said they thought that people who had similar experiences were me pretending. It was bullshit, but now I guess it is enshrined as truth.

Now it sounds like a real AA meeting. Ugh

I had people in AA not speak to me on the street. Why? Because they were afraid that I’d take away their anonymity...I never intended to. I told the guy who snubbed me how it made me feel before the meeting started. You know what he did? He was the chair of the meeting and he refused to pick me whenever I raised my hand!! And the meeting wasn’t even full! He admitted in later shares that he hated being confronted, which was one of the reasons why he drank. But he never apologized to me. After that, as well as a few other incidents, made me realize that I was not AA material.

Several members of my local AA have died over the past decade, from illness, suicide, accidents, what have you. One of the so called old timers loves being the town crier when it comes to announcing deaths. If someone beats him to the punch, he becomes furious. He did this to a friend of mine who tearfully reported the overdose death of an acquaintance at a meeting. Dude was pissed 😤 because he wasn’t the bearer of the bad news. So he snubbed my friend from that moment forward...one woman told the same story over and over and over and over again. At every meeting. There are shitloads of nutty people in AA. I just can’t anymore. I still don’t drink, but fuck the looney toons in AA.

I am sure that someone will say I am R183 talking to myself, but the anonymity fetish is not as big as it was. Back in the day, I had a sponsor who who freaked out when I picked up a letter he dropped because it had his last name one it. And if you greeted an AA at the supermarket, you never knew if they would respond warmly or get paranoid.

But now, with the rise of social media, people in AA are much less concerned about anonymity and share their last names freely. This has also made them a lot more free about these kind of chance encounter.

It is progress, not perfection. (A non-judgemental AA slogan, I agree with.)

I think it also has to do with changing attitudes toward addiction, r184. We live in a confessional culture, much more so than 30 or 40 years ago.

Here’s a great thread from last year. The same deranged, dishonest anti-AA arguments are made, but there’s more humor from the people who recognize the OP as the obsessive liar that he is.

OHMYGOD!

For the first time, I checked OP on a thread. I am R181 so I did not believe people who said one person started all these threads. (Mostly because they claimed it was me.)

But there really is one one person who starts most of these threads.

When you are accused of being the troll, you stop believing there is a troll.

Now I see, people are right. There is a troll. It just is not me.

This would make a good plot for a Denzel Washington film.

Maybe OP is bitter about his experiences in AA, but he is not necessarily lying. He’s telling his truth.

"Several members of my local AA have died over the past decade, from illness, suicide, accidents, what have you. "

Or they leave it entirely on their own accord. Many people move on.

AA is a good place to get out of the house, for free, a good two hours, if the meetings are safe and their are no drug dealers hanging out.

However, the time will come when you realize that the relationships you form are fleeting and shallow. Some meetings will shun you for any mysterious reason, and the gossip they spread drive many to suicide.

So, go for a free escape if you must, but do not give up your soul to the program as you will get nothing back for it.

And do NOT DO THE STEPS, they are fundamentalist gobbledygook designed for 1930's wife beaters.

And to add, when drug dealers figured out they had a captive customer base in AA and chased all the earnest drunks away the whole program took a fucking dive.

It was game over for most meetings and truly needy drunks have now gone to Smart Recovery or alternatives because after all, who wants to get robbed after a meeting.

[quote]if the meetings are safe and their are no drug dealers hanging out.

Oh, dear.

I never heard my story from the podium for 25 years. Such horseshit. "Stick around and you will hear your story" is another bullshit in fact, I had nothing in common with most people.

"No one died from lack of sleep" bullshit people die from that.

R194, what does that have to do with AA? It sounds like a recommendation to do coke and meth.

r195, This is one of their knee-jerk responses when a newcomer, who is detoxing from booze, opiates(especially) and pills, frets over the serious insomnia that continues for several days to weeks;

[QUOTE] There are people around you every day who go to meetings and you will never know- because you do not need to know. And why demean something dedicated to helping those seeking help? Why?

There are 2 million members of AA. There are 6 billion people on the planet.

"My disease is out in the parking lot doing pushups!"

"If you want to stay clean and sober, you have to step over a lot of bodies" (followed by knowing chuckles and winks from group members)

R163's existence is a good idea for euthanasia.

In another thread someone said that large meetings are good because you get to meet and hang around the "best people."

Funny, but I thought it was the "worst people" who needed the helping hand.

So much for helping the alcoholic who needs support to stay sober!

"“Remember, When You Point a Finger at Someone, There Are Three More Pointing Back at You”

"Thinking is bad for the brain"

The great thing about R202 's slogan is that it allows you to avoid having to do Step 10.

Everything is the fault of the person who notices, not the person responsible!

"OP is worse than Hilter"

Oh wait, that's a DL judgmental slogan - apt though it is.

"AA is where losers get together to talk about their winnings"

"I've never seen anyone too stupid to get the program, but I've seen plenty of people too smart"

"We've buried plenty of smart people"

"You have to get stupid to get the program"

Meeting makers make it...fake it till you make it.

R209 that slogan actually contains truth.

Nothing tastes as good as sobriety feels.

Why are we suddenly AA central?

Bravo [R62]!

All this snarkiness towards AA reeks of malignant disinformation. It’s almost as if some of you are operating under some kind of agenda to actively destroy anyone’s interest in going to AA.

What’s this about? If you don’t need AA, why make it seem bad for others? And, if you do need AA, but don’t want to go that route, share what has helped you. (Unless, of course, you’re simply using all this discontent simply to justify your drinking.)

I wonder how many burgeoning alcoholics will read this and use it to justify avoid going, and continue drinking themselves into harm.

Frankly, AA has worked for me for over 33 years. Though I have tired of all the insistent Christian overtones, I have found Freethinkers AA meetings, which suit me just fine.

Take what you like, and leave the rest.

MARY!

AA ish for looosherzzz. Wheresh my flashk?

In forget how Pro-Meth most gays are.

Meth doesn't judge! It kills, but you must admit that's better than "judgment"!

So if the 12 Step programs don't work for you, don't use them. AA would say that humility is key to staying sober: "No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we were willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection."

R214 I’m sorry! I have many many years experience with AA and it was nothing but harmful. I resent the fact I sought medical treatment for what I was told is a “disease” and was forced by the treatment facility to attend meetings and pray it away. They told me to break off relationships, quit school, quit my job, and move across the goddamn country. They even told me to sell my car at one point. People who seek medical treatment should not be forced to attend bullshit, cultish, and insane religious meetings. My personal favorite AA sayings that highlights the average level of intelligence in this group are:

“While you’re working your program your disease is doing push-ups and waiting for you” YOUR DISEASE IS DOING PUSH-UPS! Me eyes just rolled out of my head

Or “You better watch that stinkin thinkin”!

Jesus Christ! There is nothing good about AA

R214 Your stinkin thinkin has been doing push-ups!

If you want to go and it helps you, then go!

If you want to tell people that it helps you, then tell them.

Why do you have to insist that people who were not helped by AA--or even had bad experiences with it be silent? The people who are not helped by AA need to know that there is hope for them too. I am not exaggerating that when I say that this is life or death--everyone needs to know that they can recover...including those who do badly in AA.

R163 sounds like an absolute nightmare

We make our own nightmares.

A typical symptom of alcoholism is to play victim, always claiming other people are to blame.

And it's such a good excuse to drink.

"I hate you. Don't leave me!"

My friend has Anal cancer. I told him a higher power and prayer is all he needs in terms of treatment 🙄

R225 Bullshit false equivalency. In twelve step programs if medicine is needed, take it. If the twelve steps don't work for you, then by all means go out and do your own research. Hats off to you. For some of us in these rooms, we tried to find and easier and softer way, but we could not. If you can... great, you don't need to be in the rooms.

Oh lord 🙄! Do you ever have an original thought or do you just spout the stand AA cliches which make no sense? I’ve done my “research” and am doing much better now that have magical thinking out of my life

R227 Well then I am happy for you. That's all.

This thread is full of bitter lushes who desperately want to stop boozing but can't.

Nobody ever got arrested for driving while fat!

(Said when someone complains about the sugar cravings that kick in when you give up alcohol)

[quote]. They told me to break off relationships, quit school, quit my job, and move across the goddamn country. They even told me to sell my car at one point.

r219 Who told you to do these things, and why?

R219 Actually those are stories I've heard of people trying things to stop getting loaded... BEFORE they hit the rooms. Pulling a geographic, right?

R232 No that was a Substance Abuse Counselor and a Sponsor

No substance abuse counselor worth his salt would recommend pulling a geographic. You was robbed.

The guys whose signature phrases were "stick with the winners" and "meeting makers make it" in my extended clique both committed suicide. Ditto the guy who used to talk about making his bed every morning. I decided in 1998 I was never going to repeat anything so often in meetings, someone would think of it as my signature cliche.

"Gimme a whiskey, and don't be stingy."

Preach r227...some of them can’t even fart without using a slogan from the program.

In the olden days, we weren't allowed to claim sobriety while taking anti-depressants. A deeply depressed friend of mine committed suicide rather than "lose" his sobriety.

I think that R219 is fake. But sponsor do tell people to leave jobs where they have authority, move to another street (to show willingness), and do regulate personal relationships.

I know not everyone does, but no one who has been in the program can say they have not seen these things happen. I think people like R219 post exaggerated versions to make the real stories seem suspect.

I allowed a fellow AA member to become my real estate agent and it cost me a chunk of cash. I told another member what happened and she said that you can’t trust a crazy ex drunk to do things right. Never trust them to handle important things like helping you buy a house, car or get a loan. Just like you, they’re nuts. She was right.

"Cunts will be Cunts"

That's stinkin' thinkin'.

Put the plug in the jug.

So much of the 12 step program is judgmental, but if it helps some folks keep things clear and helps them stay on the wagon, it has justified itself.

Typical gaslighting.

The writer is passing judgment on AA, for their alleged judgment.

[quote] They told me to break off relationships, quit school, quit my job, and move across the goddamn country. They even told me to sell my car at one point.

The anti-AA loon is inventing stories again.

Unless...if the anti-AA loon was sent to a Federal prison, I guess “they” might have forced him to make these changes.

Just stop it, your story is ridiculous.

I'm 30 some years sober and now take the slogans and steps with a grain of salt, which I stopped implying in meetings cause it caused people to attack me. I go to one meeting, more or less, a week to "keep my memory green", almost never share or speak, never sponsor but do say moderate, nice, encouraging (non-dogmatic) things to newcomers ( especially cute ones) and only go to LGBTQ identified AA meetings. I like being on the margin there.

"On the margin," r245?

R244, your quote is not from the anti-AA loon. R239 is the actual anti-AA loon.

[quote] R239: But sponsor do tell people to leave jobs where they have authority, move to another street (to show willingness), and do regulate personal relationships.

I’ve never heard of such a thing. It’s ridiculous. Unless it’s the kind of thing anyone might say:

Whiner: “My boss wants me to work 60 hours a week for 40 hour’s pay. And there’s a shooting on my block every week.”

Sponsor: “You’re always whining about this. Just change jobs and move. Problem solved. Stop being such a victim.”

Whiner: “waaaaa! I suppose you think I should stop dating that drug dealer that hits me!”

Sponsor: “yes, if you’re willing!”

Hence, birth of the anti-AA loon.

Many sponsors say it is necessary to hold a humble job for a time in early recovery. Some relate it to the first step as a way to regain manageability.

I was told that teaching would have a negative impact on my recovery. I have a friend who is a lawyer who was also asked to step away from his job. This is usually something they want you to do for a few months or a year.

Didn't you ever wonder why you rarely see professionals in early recovery?

I wrote r219 And I can assure you none it was fake. It happened at a gay rehab Alternatives on Hyperion Ave in Los Angeles in 1999-2000. It was a substance abuse counselor and my sponsor and several others in AA agreed with the suggestions. I was young and stupid and trusted their judgement. Worst mistake I’ve ever made. Not exaggerated one bit, r239

A treatment facility is not AA, r250.

A sponsor is and when the treatment facility is 12 stepped based and forces 12 step programs on you it certainly is

“You’re a piece of shit human being! Own it!”

I’m not arguing anymore r251. It’s like arguing with Christians. Just want people to know that trusting the advice of people in these programs can be disastrous. You are not powerless. Make up your own mind, be your own person. There are better and healthier options

I thought I was the piece of shit around which the universe revolved.

No r255 I am the asshole at the center of the universe

[quote] R249: Many sponsors say it is necessary to hold a humble job for a time in early recovery. Some relate it to the first step as a way to regain manageability.

“Many sponsors” do not say this. There’s something terribly wrong with you, that you would lie like this. Unless you were unemployable and needed some job, but couldn’t hold a complex one. There’s more to your story, if it isn’t completely made up.

OMFG r257! He is not lying. I’m college educated and every sponsor I’ve I had told me to get a low stress, humble, sober job. Meaning jobs like a fucking cashier. You need to open your eyes, listen to others experiences without attacking them, and put on a new pair of glasses as they say in the program

I have never heard of this "humble job" business in AA. Only on DL. And I've been around AA a long time. There are groups that subvert the original intentions and purpose of AA, such as the Midtown Group in DC, in which certain people set themselves up as sponsors in a special little clique of meetings, but they are a subversion of the program, not the program itself. Perhaps you found yourself in one of these groups. Two gay men I knew got caught up in such a group, and their "sponsor" told them they had to fuck women if they wanted to be truly sober. NOT AA.

If you’ve never heard of the humble sober job I find it hard to believe you’ve been around AA very long

It's for people who don't have a job, r260. They call it a "recovery job." I've never, ever heard of anyone's being asked to stop being a lawyer in order to become a clerk in a candy store. I mean it.

Where did you get sober?

This thread is literally composed by one person with a grudge and way too much time on their hands.

OP you dont know DICK about any of this. Stop slamming something you know nothing about that has saved millions of lives.

Seriously get a hobby and get back on the meds.

This thread is bullshit.

R259, they would say that you subverted the original intentions and purpose of AA.

Which is the problem.

Anyone in the program can say anything is real AA. And there is no way to argue because it just gets into two groups each saying that the other is wrong.

Meanwhile, for whoever walks into a meeting, what they hear is the program. Period. You and I may disagree, but ultimately what they hear is what AA will be for them.

30 some years ago I was encouraged to get a recovery job at the beginning. And this was in a upper class suburban AA setting, not some fanatical Pacific or Midtown Group. Of course J was unemployed, couch surfing and one step above homeless so it made sense. I enjoyed it and that relatively simple period of my life. One reason I'm still in AA, albeit on the margins.

In Delray Beach, rehab capitol of the country, you will find Emmy winners, best sellling writers, lawyers, and all kinds of professionals working in retail and restaurants.

It is crazy. Everyone is overqualified.

Thanks, R262.

If it makes you feel better to believe it’s one person then I hope that works out for you. There are multiple people saying the same thing. I know the program inside and out. I’m not the OP r262

They always do that. They are going to say that I am the same person as R267 and that I am talking to myself because it is inconceivable that more than one person has had a negative experience with AA.

AA is a fine organization. But this idea that it is perfect for everyone is like evangelicals claiming that Christianity is the right religion for everyone. There is nothing that works for everyone or that is perfectly applied every time.

If I had known that there was another way to do AA, it would have been better for me. And I think this helps others.

Yes they do always do that, r268. It’s a sign that their beliefs are fragile and can’t hold up to a little questioning or alternative points of view. For them, this program saved their lives and I understand. Anything that questions the foundation their lives are built on scares them and they become reactionary.

People who don’t get AA and people who are struggling need to know it’s not their fault and there are other options

And those of us who have had nightmarish experiences deserve to be heard

I had a neighbor who was a 30 year AA member and had been a sponsor for years. When I knew her she was old and in her 70's, hadn't been to a meeting or had a drink in years but every chance she got, she would preach AA. She would say if you drank any alcohol at all including an occasional glass of wine you were an alcoholic. She chain-smoked while she was on her oxygen tank and almost set herself on fire a couple of times. I think she traded one addiction for another.

I am over 25 years sober, and went in an out of sobriety for years before that. I had a highly pressured job with multiple responsibilities and was never told to get a new job. I think "keep it simple" is often suggested - and getting a job that leaves time and energy for focusing on the internal growth that happens when you stop getting loaded... that's certainly the case. "Keep it simple" of course is also Taoist, Buddhist as well as AA.

Simple ? Simple minded clichés? Yep, sure. It's like brain washing, isn't it? Some of us has pretty dirty brains that needed washing I guess. I have a doctorate and two masters and never had a problem with the "simple minded" slogans.

Far from it, 268 and 269. I have no problem if you decide it not right for you. Truly wish you the best. What I think is BS is all of these absolutes. ALL AA is like this. 99% of what has been claimed on here is utter nonsense. 30 years in recovery and I can tell you it never happened. It’s a lie.

R273, it is great that it worked for you. I am not going to say that your claim that it worked for you is BS or utter nonsense. I am not going to say that I have 20 years in recovery and I can tell that what you are saying is an utter lie.

I do not need to deny your experience, to be okay with mine.

But I guess some people are sicker than others.

And that is what this ultimately is about. These claims that AA does not harm anyone and these claims that AA harms everyone--they both come from the same sickness.

It gets tiring.

R273 for you to dismissive the very VALID experiences of others as a lie says a lot about you! Believe it or not these things have happened. I have 15 years dealing with the program. I’m done arguing with an insecure fanatic who can’t hear others experiences. Have a great one. AA sounds like it has made you An obnoxious person. Enjoy your program. I’m done.

*excuse the terrible grammar, you made me want to punch a wall in the face

Why so much vitriol at AA. It’s only reason is to help those want to stop drinking, stop. It is not a cult, you do not have to believe in God, and the last thing it is, is judgemental. Stick with the winners is a suggestion to look for guidance from those with long term recovery- a suggestion, not a directive. I imagine that any of AA’s suggestions can be good advice for anyone. Take the best and leave the rest means take what works for you and not that which does not. In any case, AA is for alcoholics, no one else really. So why is it bothering some of you?

PS I gather this thread is predominantly a troll who’s pissed at AA for some reason. I would say, then don’t go to meetings! Simple.

The troll is the person telling everyone their experiences are lies

R277, I do not think it is vitriolic to say that some of AA's suggestions can be damaging to some people. I know it delayed my recovery for a few years. So while it helps many, it also works against many others. But because we are told it is such a sure way to recover--and that if it does not work, the problem is with you--people who should leave the program do not do so.

Saying that all AA's suggestions are good for everyone is part of the problem. It is just plain illogical to think that anything is good for anyone. That kind of absolutist, b&w thinking is part of the pathology of the addict, played out under the guise of recovery.

And to add on, the financial "suggestions" are just terrible.

The goal of having "fear of economic insecurity" leave one, sounds nice. But there is nothing wrong with saving money or trying to anticipate future financial need. In fact, for most of us, it is something we should do.

r281 What ARE you going on about?

R281 My fear of economic security left me when I stopped spending thousands on drugs... became more stable, which made me pay off my debts, and start to save. I am so fucking grateful. So sometimes "the promises" come true just because of some very simple, mundane, logical reasons....

I do think there a deep truth... the trust in something Other, means letting go of ego, attachment. In this sense I think AA and Buddhism pretty much are aligned.

Last, for those so angry with AA... I concur with what's been said. If AA doesn't work, or repels... then by all means never go to a meeting again. Early on I heard "take what you need, and leave the rest..." For some it may well be the best thing to "leave" it all.

Lord god in hell. You think about being their ally and then they author the above!

Which was clearly written after two shots and a toke

Well here’s an idea for those of you that don’t like what you hear in meetings...STOP GOING TO FUCKING MEETINGS! And quit demonizing others. Pretty simple.

Not when those others cause harm, love. You’ll understand one day

Reign it in 286. Discuss it with your sponsor, girl

Blow me 288. And 287 it must be fun to blame others for how your life is going and take no responsibility for the choices you’ve made. A.A. isn’t prison. No one forced you to go.

Differing opinions are the stuff of life, no?

That program seems to be working well. Thank god it’s not based on attraction rather than promotion. I’ll be waiting for your amends. Take care of your side of the street, right?

And yes, I was forced to go by medical providers

R283, I had a similar experience to yours. But I alienated sponsors and group members by rejecting anything they said about money and career. I was always a saver, which was usually interpreted as proof that I had not surrendered and still feared economic insecurity.

I think it would be great if AA could institute a policy where sponsors and group members could not weigh in on money and career. Those are the areas where the worst suggestions are made...and in my opinion they have little impact on recovery. You can be a teacher and you can save half your income yet still have the necessary humility and faith.

[quote][bold]Reign[/bold] it in 286.

No, [bold]rein[/bold] it in. Looser.

r293, again, the "don't save money" advice you were given by a sponsor is one of the most peculiar claims I've ever heard, either pro- or anti-AA. What did your sponsor expect you to spend your money on that you said "no" to?

I like pickles

R295, I agree. That advice was given in a group where everyone was hand-to-mouth. It made no sense so I brushed the advice off.

I think it is good as an example of how sponsors and groups can find something in the BB to justify any nonsense they want to. I just wanted to be clean and sober and there it was in the promises so who was I to tell my sponsor that he was wrong?

So even though I did not follow the suggestion, I felt bad that I didn't.

R295 Yeah, even in the revisionist criticisms of AA in the last couple decades, I've never heard anyone getting direction to "don't save money" in order to demonstrate appropriate humility. I suppose (c.f. my observations that the "reduce the ego... practice righteous detachment from things and results" themes in AA are pretty equivalent to Buddhism, Taoism, Christian asceticism, some kinds of Jewish mysticism, non-materialist "mindfulness") that some suggestion about not being too attached to material results could be misinterpreted. But the "live life on life's terms" principles, in my experience, has led to pragmatic behaviors like... when you get a bill, pay it.... don't go into huge debt you can't afford to get a car, or house.... build your 401k so you can "be self-supporting through your own contributions" (that weird application of the 12 Traditions). All that would suggest building savings is the recommended behavior.

I've had 5-6 sponsors in 30 years. Several sponsors borrowed money from me. That's probably kind of scummy... but you "fire" sponsors if they aren't working for you. Human frailty shouldn't be the sole metric of the efficacy and integrity of AA.... in my opinion.

R262 is right, this thread is BS.

If you have a bad time in AA, suck it up. It’s clearly “you”, not AA. I’ve no doubt you have a problem in every group.

For those who don’t already know, some idiot starts an anti-AA thread frequently with the same complaints. Nothing new. He’s seems really angry.

R298, Not saving money was never a humility thing. It was supposed to show you believed in the promises.

I think your interpretation of the program applied to finances makes a lot more sense than anything I ever heard in the rooms.

I think AA has a real problem in dealing with material issues and has a lot of mixed messages about money. Every group I have ever been part of sees material success as a sign that someone's recovery is "working." But in early recovery, one is told that money should not be a concern because of the promises. And all the job stuff is really bad.

And none of this really has anything to do with recovery.

R288, I like your posts. Here’s a friendly reminder, when referencing previous posts, please put an R before the number. That allows the reader to click on it and see the referenced post. So, it would be like this: Rxxx , where the xxx is the number. Thanks.

I don’t know what to think about the anti-AA loon. I don’t even like AA, but I don’t like liars even more. He’s been posting for years. His story changes. He was in Florida. Or California. In the old days, I used trolldar to see that he was responding to himself, purportedly as someone else, to support his own posts. I’ve no doubt he uses technology or other devices to pretend to be someone else. It’s very strange.

I think R288 and R301 are the same person.

No, R302. I’m R301 but not R288. I’m familiar with how to reference earlier posts, and just started posting this morning.

There are posts using very similar language to R301 going back for a long time. Yet, he tells us he only started posting this morning.

R304, Today, this morning, I only just started posting at R301, about 40 minutes ago, is what I meant, so I couldn’t have posted R288, (earlier today) as someone alleged.

This idiocy (R304) is probably why you didn’t get along in AA. They are just civilians. A random mix of alcoholic people. If you picked their language apart, and thought the worst of them, (as you have here), no wonder you had conflict.

So you claim that your story did not really change. We just misunderstood.

Got it.

Why do so many AA meetings end with reciting The Lords Prayer?

I got so tired of the cliques, especially in the LGBT meetings. I also got tired of being snubbed for not working my program like others. I don’t miss it as much as I thought I would.

R307 Are you sober? Are you living engaged in the moment, living with ethics, feeling satisfied with your life? If that's true, you have no need of AA. The AA path is clearly not for everyone.

If you go on an AA board they will try to tell you that the Lord's Prayer is non-denominational. (Seen it happen.)

Jesus Christ if you think it’s the same poster block one of them and you will prove yourself wrong.

I am r288 and I was responding to the instability that is r286

Once again I’m done arguing with a fanatic

R309 It is non-denominational, by definition. Not Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Anglican, Orthodox, Mormon. It is Christian (which I guess is what you mean). One of my favorite meetings, several decades ago, was at the Sunset Kaiser Medical Center in Hollywood. It was full of old (really old, though probably my age now, ha) Jewish atheist commies. Strong recovery in that group of AA atheists...

R300 claiming AA tells people not to save to show you're living the promises or whatever is just an old fashioned troll. The ones who say outrageous and false things to rile people up. They're as old as the Internet and yet people keep falling for it.

So Christianity is non-denominational?

R313 "denominations" are different schools of the same religion. The dictionary will apply it to Christianity - though modern usage would say "non-denominational Islam" would be not Sunni, not Shia etc. Examples of denominations: Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Free Will Snake Handler Tax Exempt Baptist.... etc.

AA works for some people and doesn't work for others.

Breathtaking, isn't it?

The Lord's Prayer, or da Our Father as I heard it announced in one old working class meeting in Catholic dominated meeting in Brooklyn years ago, has gone out of style in much of AA in the last 30 some years. I'm sure it's still used places. Even 10 or so years ago visiting AAs from other meeting to that Brooklyn one, remarked on it. (Many of the old guys even crossed themselves after it.) But it's probably pretty rare now ( maybe used in the South) I have been at meetings where it was voted out in consideration of the feelings of Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist members.

Looking up "nondenominational" online, it seems that the usage has changed. It used to mean not tied to any specific religion (and is still understood by many of us that way). But now it can mean strictly Christian.

Still, AA claims it is nondenominational in the older sense. It claims to be open to atheists, Buddhists, and Jews, but the use of Christian prayer makes that seem untrue.

R316, that is really good news. It still is used in most meetings in my community.

R317 I think the original meaning was to refer to Christian denominations.

As was said, many (though far from all) meetings end in the Serenity Prayer now... not sectarian (the "religion" version of "non-denominational). Some meetings call on someone to end the meeting "with the prayer of your choice."

R316, see my comment at R316 above. AA began as a group dominated by Protestants but has changed. It can reflect the culture or even neighborhood in which it embedded but change has inched its way forward.

Also to correct my statement above, it was da Our Fader, since dos and dees guys don't have a th sound. Most of those speakers are dead now in NYC.

AA says they have a success rate of 95%. What they don't tell you is that most of those who fail don't count. It works if you work it, but it ain't if you don't. Mostly don't count on it.

Actually, R321, they tell you all the time that those who fail do not count because they did not really do the program.

The tough part is when you see someone who was gung ho and held up as an example of good recovery go out. Suddenly, they go from someone working the program to someone who "never really got it."

A lot of the program discourse mirrors Protestant theology. Some are saved and some are not. Those who are not are both predestined to fail and fail because of their own faults.

R322 Yeah, this thread is interesting... but done. You are picking some things about PEOPLE, and essentializing AA with that. AA ought never be organized. My own experience (not meaning to, in any way, discount your experience) is that if someone goes out, they are encouraged to come back in as quickly as they can. The "newcomer", whether there for the first time or a retread, is the life's blood of the program. Praying for "those still suffering" in and out of the rooms, is a hallmark of AA. Calvinism (the kind of Protestantism you ascribe as foundational to AA, as opposed to the Anglican/Methodist Arminian traditions) is not AA... not in my experience.

I think the BB is pretty Calvinistic and I hate it. Oddly I think it was Catholic members in the early days that began to modify AA and the 12 and 12 indicates a shift toward the notion of slow progression in spiritual development which is more Catholic. Other influences over the years have worked on the ground. Sadly the more recent Back to Basics and Pacific Group shit has shifted much of AA back to fundamentalism. Even worse than earlier if people are being instructed in those parts of AA to go off their meds, etc.

R323, since AA is not organized, people ARE the experience of AA. If every meeting in a 20 mile radius says the Lord's Prayer, that is going to be AA for whoever attends. There is no disclaimer saying, "This is how we do it here, but if you go to another state they are going to do it differently." The AA you are part of it pretty much luck of the draw.

And while the judgements on those who go out are passed with sorrow and affection, there is a fatalism. No one is going to seek out the person who has stopped attending meetings and might be drinking. If they come back, of course they will be welcomed.

But relapse does not begin with the drink--there is usually a period of time when someone is getting ready to go out. There usually are warning signs. But we are told, you cannot stop someone who wants to drink and encouraged to distance ourselves just when someone needs help the most.

I know that there are some sponsors who will maintain contact during these critical periods. But again, it is luck of the draw. They do not wear signs saying what they will do.

A few months ago, I told someone trying to quit drinking to call me when he wanted a drink. He told this really helped him. And I think that is what too many people want from AA, but cannot get. He is close to three months without drinking--and I do not know if he would get that if he just prayed like they tell you in AA. The newcomers may be the lifeblood, but not all get what they need.

I believe ANYONE can be helped to not drink. No one is so far gone that they cannot be helped (if they want it).

R325 "...ought never be organized" means, to me, no single person or people represent the "entirety" of AA. Yep, I went to a meeting of AA Catholics in Montreal, and AA Buddhists in Singapore, and AA Mexican Evangelicals in LA, and AA new age personal growth wonks in Los Gatos... they are all AA, and all very different and all exactly the same to me, because I brought ME along.

And "call someone before your get loaded" is exactly what's expected, eh? Used to hear sponsors talking to folks that had slipped.. ."call me BEFORE you pick up, not AFTER Einstein!" Etc.

R326, I heard the exact opposite, that it was wrong to risk taking anyone down with you. And not to think that you are more powerful than another person's alcoholism.

After a number of sponsors had made this clear, I assumed that my last sponsor felt the same. After leaving the program I found out that he would have been okay with me calling him before I drank/used. But I already had a year under my belt, so I thought it best to not to go back to AA.

But again, you traveled so you knew about the differences in how AA was practiced. It never occurred to me that there would be such a wide range of opinion about what was acceptable in AA.

Looking back I suspect that because I lived in an area with a lot of rehabs, there were few people with more than a year or two in the program. That may be why there was such an emphasis on not taking anyone else down. However, even after I moved I still often heard that the first rule was not to take anyone else out.

[quote] R325: No one is going to seek out the person who has stopped attending meetings and might be drinking.

I actually got a number of calls when I stopped attending regular meetings. It was very sweet. These were people I developed nice, though casual relationships with. Don’t expect people that you have a testy relationships with to call you. Or new people, who nobody has the phone number for yet, will not be called, obviously. Meetings have just regular people. Attendees aren’t paid to attend to anybody, so don’t expect it.

[quote] R325: But we are told, you cannot stop someone who wants to drink and encouraged to distance ourselves just when someone needs help the most.

No, not really. Of course you can dissuade an alcoholic from drinking. Any alcoholic who is [bold] determined. [/bold] to drink, will, but there is a difference from one who [bold] wants [/bold] to drink. And it’s wise for a new person not to hang out frequently with an active alcoholic. That’s also different than depicted, “distancing yourself from an alcoholic who wants to drink”. R325, You have completely misunderstood what you’ve heard!

[quote] R325: I know that there are some sponsors who will maintain contact during these critical periods. But again, it is luck of the draw. They do not wear signs saying what they will do

If you’re not just trolling, your sponsor, being an unpaid nonprofessional volunteer, probably got tired of your oppositional defiance disorder, and was glad to be rid of you!

Just want to add my experience to reiterate that the "get a humble job" thing is *not* BS. I attended meetings in my early-mid twenties as a recent college grad. I'd been abusing alcohol largely because I was so bored and depressed after finishing college. This was in the midst of the 00s recession, and I was despairing because it felt like after doing everything right, there was no fulfilling career path out there for me.

People I met in meetings (AND the hack therapist who told me to go to AA in the first place) told me to pursue something menial and shut up whenever I tried to talk about what I was going through. Ambition was essentially discouraged on all fronts. I didn't think I was too good to temporarily work as a cashier or something, but I badly needed encouragement and support to believe that I could start taking steps to become something more. It was incredibly insulting and unhelpful to reach out for help during this time, only to be told over and over that menial work was all I had any right to be trusted to do.

It's an environment where individual circumstances are irrelevant, but the inept blathering of a flagrant narcissist from the 1930s is elevated to scriptural status. There is no area of current mental health treatment that's more behind on the times than 12 step programs.

My pussy stinks.

R329, oppositional defiance? I am sorry, but where did that come from?

I guess it may seem like I have a lot to say and ask, but after so many years in the program without being able to ask questions or get information, I may be a bit intense online. The compliance I had to maintain in the program made it hard to ask questions or get information. And my discomfort with giving up control over personal decisions, made me minimize contact with people in the program.

And looking back, there are all these people I had an intense experience with but whose last names I never learned and whom I have no way of knowing what happened to them. There is definitely something unresolved. And I guess it has to be.

I knew more about some of these people's lives than I know about my friend's lives. But who they were and what happened to them....I will never know.

R329 wins the argument, mic drop

Goddamn I want an ice cold Maragarita

R329 supports his own comment in R332. Again.

Wrong again, Psycho. Jesus, if this is your personality sober than HAVE A DRINK WOULD YOU PLEASE!

[quote] R329: An early-mid twenties recent college grad, in a recession, is a jobless alcoholic with no career path. People in meetings and his therapist said get a job and shut-up in meetings when he tried to talk about ambition...

R329 is the most pathetic thread I’ve read in a long time. It’s hard to believe anyone would actually think it “wins any kind of argument (see R332)”. I’m so sorry, sweetie, but you put you put it out there. In a different context, I’d be your biggest fan, but I don’t appreciate you’re misinformation about AA, since you may discourage others from going, when it may help them.

A job of any kind, even a “humble” job, sounds right for you at that time. And it sounds like you should shut up in meetings. You’ve got opinions, but they’re convoluted and misinformed, so nobody wants to hear them.I can see someone unable to control themselves, and breaking the rules to correct you.

AA wasn’t for you, ok? But it may be for others. Can you leave it at that? I hope things have gotten better for you, but please stop this disinformation campaign.

R336. You are clearly not a well person. I am not R329. I will discuss my very valid negative experiences with AA whenever and wherever I want. Kindly fuck off, weirdo.

I don't know who's talking to whom in half these posts. Use your numbers, bitches. (I'm addressing r337 at the moment.)

I just want you to keep ranting because you’re because if you are a typical AA’r of 30 years I’d rather have a Martini. Carry on, girl. You haven’t seemed to learn the whole attraction rather than promotion principle. Anybody can discuss their negative experiences even if it threats the fragile foundation upon which your beliefs are built. Bye

Y'all are crazy here. Not even half as crazy as those freaks on the theater threads, but crazy, nonetheless.

R336, the reason I do not leave it at that is everyone told me that if I could not do AA, I could not recover.

It is important for people to realize that if AA works for them, great, but if it does not work that they still can stop drinking and drugging.

Whenever absolutist AA stuff gets said, someone has to say "Yes, but..."

(And I have sent a number of people to AA and NA.)

I'm R329 and I didn't support my own comment, R334. Go ahead and check my history.

LMAO @ R336 completely rewriting my post in a supposed quote before responding to me.

R336 is a damn mess

Doesn’t matter if the Lords Prayer is non denominational-it’s CHRISTIAN. Should not be used at an AA meeting.

R336 is Faye Dunaway

R345, take the cotton outa ya ears and put it in ya mouth. Ya might learn something.

R347 Stitches slogans on pillows

Your point is...?

"Think it over" or more commonly "Think, think, think" (which means "Think through the drink", i.e. think of the consequences) is traditionally on upside down placards at AA meetings. As a newcomer I asked an old timer why that was. He told me it was " to make me think." To this day, 32 years later, I remember that whenever I see that upside down sign and inwardly cringe, thinking it is the singular most corny thing I have encountered in all my years " in the rooms." (Another corny saying.)

R350, I always heard that it was hung that way because when you come into the program your thinking is upside down and backwards.

Your stinkin’ thinkin is doing push-ups

R350 My very first rehab I was asked what I though of AA - I said it seemed like a play where fatuous gift-shop slogans were pasted on the wall. Snotty self-deluded little addict that I was. Though I still hate the "think" ones... because "your feelings are not facts/do what's in front of you" school of recovery would tell you NOT to overthink. Etc.

They are just sayings, you all realize? Not the beatitudes or names of Civil War battles, or whatever.

R354 Straw man argument. No one here treats the "slogans" like anything other than slogans. Kinda like recovery emojis. I'm not fond of emojis in any context, but I know what they are trying to communicate.

Turn it over, R355!

[quote]Remember: God never dumps on us more than we can handle.

- Oh, is that available stitched on a pillow somewhere?

Danny Thomas never dumps on us more than we can handle.

Man up, and learn how to handle your liquor!

God never gave me more vodka than I could handle

The last three slogans are not official.

I can stop any time I want to!

Other people are to blame for your drinking.

If you feel uncomfortable around public alcohol consumption, ask others to accommodate you. Hosts love to be helpful, and especially like last minute challenges so that they can feel heroic.

AA has a responsibility to listen to whatever thought pops into your head, for however long you want to talk. Entertain them with stories of your Hollywood ambitions and how famous you’d be if one of them would only give you a job.

I’ll talk for however damn long I want. I paid my dollar.

If my sponsor told me to stand on my head in the corner and recite the Serenity Prayer I would do it.

Y’all have stinkin thinkin and it’s doing push-ups in the parking lot as you post

Relax, beer and wine are ok.

Grass or ass. No one rides for free in AA.

You're not sober if you're juicing steroids.

Some of you should check out Hysterics Anonymous.

"If ya don't get sober, I'll wipe the floor with you, ya fuckin turd."

(Our slogan is "Love and Service".)

"Your best thinking got you here".

I’ve got opinions. Let me tell you about them.

I know I don’t know anything about the Program, but hear me out...

But I want to do it my way!

I can stop any time I want to. I just don't want to stop!

My worst day drinking was better than my best day sober

Pull yourself together, you sloppy drunk!

I’d rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me.

My sponsor was brutal towards anyone who he thought wasn’t working their program HIS WAY. Whenever I tried to bag out of a meeting, he’d guilt me into going and if it was far away (I don’t have a car), he’d take me, but sometimes would make me find my own way back , which would force me to interact with other people and not isolate. “I’m not doing this to hurt you”, he’d say, “But you’ve got to stop isolating - hermits like you don’t do well in AA.”. After he did this a few times, I realized that he was playing head games with me. I stopped going to meetings, dropped him as a sponsor and got a good shrink who specializes in addiction therapy. No I still don’t drink. And I have made a few friends on my own. My sponsor, or rather my ex sponsor decided to transition into a woman. But with those shoulders, he’s not fooling anyone. Funny how he wanted to transition but I remember him derisively talking about a lesbian who was transgender male...it was best for me to make a clean break I guess. AA helped me a lot in the beginning, but I grew weary of the cliques and head games and the blatant hypocrisy that ran amok in the rooms.

Meeting makers make it..yeah...fake it till you make it...feelings aren’t facts. Bullshit.

The "meeting makers make it" guy in my AA-iverse committed suicide.

I don’t think there is any harm in criticizing AA. Things need to be criticized from time to time.

But I don’t begrudge anyone who finds it helpful. if it works for you, then good.

I just don’t like it when rehabs or court systems force people to go to them.

Rehabs need to be focused on evidence based therapies and can offer AA as one of many options. But far too many force 12-step attendance, as do some court systems. That never set will with me.

AA meetings are a free spiritual program and should not be a crutch for expensive rehabs to outsource the bulk of their protocols to a third party.

R384, I know of several suicides or accidental ODs in the groups I attended. All had several years of sobriety so it was a shock.

Someone I knew killed himself who'd gone to priest school, and upon graduation (or maybe flunking out) became a male escort. I don't remember his favorite slogan.

I know among the gays it can be difficult to find a meeting because a lot of them are church sponsored and they think gayness is the cause of drinking. And yes, some AA people are smug and judgemental as hell, as if not drinking give you the permission to channel Regina George. But then there are plenty of smug drunks out there.

This is my last drink, and then I'll stop for good.

[quote]And yes, some AA people are smug and judgmental as hell, as if not drinking gives you the permission to channel Regina George.

It certainly did where I got sober, though Regina George would not become a thing until I had many years in the program. When I was new, the people to whom you allude were referred to as the Heathers.

R388 A.A. meetings aren’t church sponsored. They may be held in meeting rooms at churches as well as other places. These groups pay rent to hold meetings.

Gay meetings are plentiful in urban areas but tough to find in smaller towns.

R391 I live in a gay ghetto, so usually that is not a problem, but when my AA gays need to travel and want to find a meeting, it becomes a problem.

“Rarely have we seen a person thoroughly follow our path,” a small reading error I heard a person make reading “How It Works”. Everyone laffed.

R393, just for reference, it’s sposeta be, “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path...” Well, I’m one. 25 years and Out.