AA members are generally

Yes. That is about it.

Go to bed Hillary.

I don’t go to meetings anymore because of that. There are some good people in the rooms of AA but the majority of them are pathetic.

Which of them hurt you to the degree you want to lecture us on this?

Go ahead. Share.

As someone who is 28 years sober, I disagree with that statement. What many are though, are Jesus freaks. And that works my fucking nerves.

F&F you racist piece of shit.

Yes-them and their "higher power" proselytizing and cultish to the max!

I feel for them but they often are afraid of exploring their addictions deeply.

[QUOTE]I feel for them but they often are afraid of exploring their addictions deeply.

Yeah like white people are so open about their addictions.

If you are "not willing to go to any length," they say you might as well give up on getting clean and sober.

But the lengths they demand are pretty nutty. And I saw many people screw up their lives in the hope that cutting off contact with family, changing career, moving to another city, quitting school, stop saving money, or whatever their sponsor told them to do in the hope that it would make them whole.

I refused. So I was out.

With these kinds of demands made with so little return in terms of mental health, is it any wonder they become so joyless and judgemental?

why are we talking about race R8?

My issue is they are actually NOT allowed to talk about the roots of their addictions.

If I had to go around and apologize to everyone I hurt when I was on a bender.......I wouldn't have time for anything else.

Oh my bad. Thought OP meant something different.

smokers

[quote] OP: AA members are generally...Self centered, self righteous, judgmental and really joyless people. They love to condemn and to exalt.

Dos no one else find it to be absurd that OP is criticizing, well, anyone else, for being self righteous, judgmental, joyless, and condemning? The lack of self awareness boggles my mind.

This is eerily similar to the "What is Clean and Sober?" thread from last week.

Someone really has an axe to grind!

look, asshole, if I can afford to pay someone to change my flat tire, I damn well will.

Time to que the passive aggressive putz with comments like [italic] “perhaps being controlling and being monitored works for other people, I just found it frustrating. Not that I’m criticizing, I just need to think for myself and make my own decisions. That’s exactly the opposite of the AA program, so I didn’t fit in.” [/italic]

We just had this thread a week ago. I think the quota is for a new thread every 3 months.

Well R15, he's had experience with them as have some of us and he's right as far as I can see

Put a plug in the jug, OP.

[italic] “I’m sure some people need to be self righteous, judgmental, joyless, condemning, and totally lacking in self awareness in order to stay sober. I just found it exhausting. After my sponsor told me to move across the country, quit my career, become his unpaid gardener, stand on my head, chant helter-skelter while robbing the Sunset District branch of the Hibernia Bank in San Francisco while wielding an M1 carbine, in order to learn humility, I decided it wasn’t for me. I just couldn’t stay sober that way. Once I stopped lying on a daily basis, as required by AA, I was able to stay sober.” [/italic]

OP attended meetings in the basement of the Schubert theatre in San Francisco.

Assholes like kevin sessums droning on about “the fellowship I belong to”....🤪😴😴😴😴😴😴

Mercy, OP, you've described more than 50% of the posters on DL and it has nothing to do with AA.

AA is a cult and completely ineffective. I live in NYS where opioid addicts are sent to Medicaid rehabs where they sit around reading "the book" while the taxpayers foot the bill for this nonsense. On a positive note, new regulations in the state are preventing these dubious rehabs from parking people there for more than 1-3 months. The only thing that will help the opiate addicts is methadone or suboxone with associated social services, not reading a book based on the belief of a supernatural deity.

And you want to pay for the medical treatment and management, R25? You sound like a cheap, heartless cunt, so I doubt it.

I do pay for the treatment as I live in NYS - in fact I will be sending a nice big check to NYS on Jan. 15. I am a suboxone prescriber, as well, you dolt, and every day at work I keep opiate addicts alive. What have you done to help addicts?

You sound like a bitter addict, now sober, who has realized your substance abuse just masked your nasty personality, and that sobriety has not helped you out much.

[italic] “I tried to get sober for 8 years, but I never could, so I’m going to blame my own addiction and alcoholism on an organization that manages to help millions of people all over the world. I’ll mischaracterize the program, oh heck, I’ll just lie and lie about it, so as to dissuade as many people from trying it as possible, because I’m one of those cunts that I keep complaining that AA is filled with. But it’s not my fault, it’s my sponsor’s, and the people in the meetings, and my higher power’s. Everybody’s fault but my own.

Oh, and I’m a suboxone provider, so that’s how I know that that is the only thing that can help these people. I’m a saint too. Not another liar.” [/italic]

Drinking again, OP??

Sad.

I was raped in AA.

[quote] R9: If you are "not willing to go to any length," they say you might as well give up on getting clean and sober...But the lengths they demand are pretty nutty... cutting off contact with family, changing career, moving to another city, quitting school, stop saving money, or whatever their sponsor told them to do in the hope that it would make them whole...I refused. So I was out.

Nobody ever asks you to “cut off ties with family”. This is just a lie. I don’t know why this author does this in ever AA thread. If she’s not lying, she’s simply so confused that she completely misinterpreted what she’s heard. People would only suggest this, (and “suggest” does not mean require), if the family were the Manson Family.

Similar with “changing your career”. Unless you’re a drug dealer, prostitute, or alcohol taster, no one suggests this. Perhaps the author was chronically complaining about her job? I can see a person getting experated with someone who’s always whining about their job, and just blurting out, “Well, why don’t you quit if it bothers you so much?” I have no doubt it was something like that, if the story isn’t completely invented. That’s the kind of thing anyone might say anywhere, anytime, to someone who’s always complaining.

I know people have are legitimate beefs with AA, but there are enough real problems that people can discuss, there’s no reason to fabricate or exaggerate problems beyond recognition, just to grind an axe.

R31, My roommate was asked to cut off contact with his family by his sponsor. I was many times told that I needed to get a "humble job" and that being in a position of authority would undermine my recovery. Another sponsor told me that saving money as i was showed that I was still afraid of financial insecurity which as the Big Book says, shows a lack of trust in a higher power.

All of the examples are things that I or people I knew were told to do by their sponsors.

All anyone has to do to become a sponsor is volunteer. Then they can tell sponsees anything they want. How can anyone defend that? I know a lot of people who were helped but I also know a lot of people who were harmed.

R25 At my AA group , we refer opioid addicts to NA as we have a singleness of purpose, meaning alcohol is our problem. Many groups however, accept all addicts. I choose not to attend those type meetings as I cant relate. As far as bossy sponsor, I would get rid of them, although some people only respond to authoritarian rule in all aspects of their lives. I find AA very helpful and I am very liberal and non-religious. The gay AA did the least for me, ironically. Cults have a leader, which AA does not. You can even start your own group. R31 there are nice ways to tell a sponsor to F---Off and find a new one!

R32, if there is any truth at all, intended in your posts, then you have grossly misunderstand what you’ve heard in AA, and probably everywhere in your life. You probably have some cognitive imparenent that keeps you from understanding what you hear in a way that most people are accustomed to communicating. You shouldn’t be telling people that AA is this way or that way, because you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

r30 sounds like fun!

R34, I do not understand the investment in perpetuating something that does so much harm. Being sober a few months more than someone else does not qualify anyone to run someone else's life. And people in the program are vulnerable. They are desperate for answers and are willing to do whatever they are told.

I spent years in the program and it kept me sick. I have a strong feeling that you have the same desperation and fear that I did holding you in the program. Or you have started sponsoring and are getting off on the power. Either way, this is not healthy. Deep down you know it is true.

AA is a damned big network of people who, of course, embodied just about every trait, good and bad.

I find it useful to think of AA members as brave people who have acknowledged, at some level, that they have a significant problem and are trying, at some level, to make things better.

Unlike so many of the folks I encounter at DataLounge who delight in basting themselves in their own bile.

We read "A New Pair of Glasses" every day!

The best way to get, and stay, sober / healthier / better is to

- Take a good look at yourself, what bothers you and what drives you to drink / engage in self destructive behavior?

- What are your triggers? What do they trigger in you (which emotion, memory, etc.)?

- Deal with your triggers (aka the core issue, or issues).

- After you have dealt with your triggers you will see that you feel like a great burden was lifted off your shoulders and you no longer feel the need to drink or engage in other self destructive activities.

[quote] AA members are generally Self centered ...

You have to become selfish enough to care for yourself first, because usually one of the biggest reason why people start to drink in the first place is that they care too much about others' approval, respect, love, etc. And no matter how hard they try in the end it's just not enough and people get frustrated and feel sad and powerless and they don't like that feeling and in order to deal with that feeling they start to drink in order to forget feeling sad and powerless.

I like squirrels.

[quote] R32: All anyone has to do to become a sponsor is volunteer. Then they can tell sponsees anything they want. How can anyone defend that?

I think this is a fair question. It is imperative that you bear in mind [italic] exactly [/italic] what you already know. [italic] All anyone has to do to become a sponsor is volunteer. [/italic] It is the Sponsee’s responsibility to choose a Sponsor. It is your responsibility to ask about your Sponsor about their experience and qualifications, and to only take the suggestions they offer with which you are comfortable. Generally, a sponsor’s only qualification that matters is that they know how they have stayed sober. What has worked for them may not work for you. It is the Sponsee’s responsibility to dump a Sponsor if your differences are so great that they are not helpful to you. You may find that your Sponsor is an ass. Your Sponsor is a human being - expect him or her to be flawed.

When you hear that you should “go to any lengths” to stay sober, this doesn’t mean that you should wash somebody’s car. You need to exercise your own sound judgement in Sobriety as in all aspects of your life. When AA talks about “surrendering”, it doesn’t mean you are forfeiting responsibility for your own life.

R41, I think you are right. But it does become like shopping for which person's craziness can you stand. Do you want a sponsor who will ask you to change jobs or do you want the one who will tell you what to wear? Or the one who wants you off anti-depressants? Or the one who will not let you live in certain neighborhoods?

There are never enough sponsors to go around so it is a bit of a sellers market. And if you are too difficult, it gets harder to find a sponsor. Every time I resisted a nutty suggestion or fired a sponsor, it was harder to get a new one.

There are plenty of people in AA who thrive on being judgmental to the extreme. I personally do not like being told constantly that I am flawed - its ineffective and destructive. As a therapist once told me regarding AA "its sick people trying to lead sick people."

[quote] Being sober a few months more than someone else does not qualify anyone to run someone else's life.

I agree and think this is absolutely true. But Sponsors do not run anyone else’s life. They don’t have that power, and that’s not their role. This is why I think you may have a cognitive implement, because you not only have this misunderstanding, but you persist in believing it, despite being told by multiple people on DataLounge, over many different threads, over a long period of time, that this is just not so. Plus, you not only believe this nonsense, but persist in preaching it here.

You may be a psychic witch, but your “strong feeling” about me is just a feeling you have, not a fact. I only wish you well, Sweetie, but I am tired of you dispensing lies about AA and your passive aggressive tone. There are people who may benefit from AA, but who read your nonsense and think there’s something to it, when it’s all just inside of your own head, not in reality.

[quote] I spent years in the program and it kept me sick.

The program is not responsible for your sickness. You are. It’s your job to get well or not.

Agreed, most of the people I met in AA were some of the most mentally ill, dysfunctional, emotionally disturbed people I ever met in my life. They were often vampires, sucking on the weak (the newbies like me) who entered their AA world.

Later I was to find out, many of these people had horribly abusive and terrible childhoods and actually I was meeting them at the best point in their lives. As disturbed as these individuals seemed, in fact they were "healthier" than they ever had been.

It's very hard work dealing with all these basket cases for a prolonged period of time and getting them into some semblance of human beings. That is why I admire AA as a group (although I ultimately decided it was not right for me)

Piss off ya old lush.

AA is based on Christian principles.

The 12 step programs.

Let talk about that for a sec.

That is no small thing.

And built into it are the same exclusionary problems of ALL religions which build up distrust and separation from others not in your tribe.

MANY I know have had friends in these type of "programs" cut off from them and USE this "religion" as the means to do so.

It gave them "strength" of numbers. Yet it denied them the strength as INDIVIDUALS for they found comfort in shared weakness and bonding over wounds they were told would NEVER heal.

As said so well by R36:

" And people in the program are vulnerable. They are desperate for answers and are willing to do whatever they are told.

I spent years in the program and it kept me sick. I have a strong feeling that you have the same desperation and fear that I did holding you in the program. Or you have started sponsoring and are getting off on the power. Either way, this is not healthy. Deep down you know it is true. "

R44, you feel there is a cognitive impairment because I believe what my sponsors and people in AA told me to my face rather than accepting what people on DL say.

I think OP left out that AA members are also prone to gaslighting.

I’ve been sober for almost 32 years, but have found over time that AA does not help me deal with various psychological issues that led to my drinking in the first place. For that, I’ve turned to a lot of one-on-one therapy, which has been a great help.

AA is great for support when someone is first getting sober, but a lot of members often don’t want to deal with the underlying issues. There’s also a trend for members to repeat slogans and quotes from AA literature, maintaining a public face, stating, “God wants me to be happy, joyous, and free.” Sadly, when life changes happen to them, rather than coping with them, these people frequently disappear, though sometimes they may return, looking more haggard and worn.

I’ve also become disenchanted with what I’ve seen as an increasing tendency in AA to be more vocally Christian in attitude and approach. Prayers from a Christian view. Responsive reading of AA texts, as if in church. Sharing focused on God, Higher Power, and even Jesus.

One reason I originally felt safe in AA was because I felt unconditional love for me as an openly gay man, but now I see even that disappearing, as members share about the help they’ve received from churches, churches that I know have a homophobic agenda.

One piece of advice I heard when I first got sober was, “Take what you like and leave the rest,” very helpful for seeking meetings more amenable. And, like the poster above, I have also found that gay AA meetings have not been my favorite, which I have discovered to be more social than supportive.

AA can be a wonderful tool for active self-help, but, if I don’t work on myself, I’ll continue to live in habitually negative behaviors, which will eventually lead me back to escapist substances.

It’s my choice.

One of the great things about AA is you can make any claims you want - you know because it's anonymous.

For example the OP 's claims. How can OP know who members of AA act?

I have to laugh at a therapist who has such a simplistic idea about AA as R43 's therapist. Is it possible this therapist is threatened by a worldwide community based program that takes everyone and DOESN"T CHARGE by the hour? On top of that what little research is available shows the combination of AA and individual therapy is effective.

A world-wide CHRISTIAN community based program.

You still have to say the Our Father at the end of meetings. (Or stand silently while everyone else says it.)

R51 I don't say it , but no big Whup! The meeting I lead I end with the Serenity Prayer instead, to no objection.

How I loathe those who get and stay sober for decades in AA then leave when they think they're better. You miserable cunts might think about sticking with AA to help those who have come behind you just as others were there to help you in your early days.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU R49 for that insiders post. You reaffirm what I felt about the Christian undercurrent and lack of true inner psychological delving that doesn't go on in these "programs" therefore requiring a more one on one approach.

Here's a man who got the best out of it and then went on to get MORE. You sound like an amazing person.

I repost because it was on hell of a post. Again, THANK YOU!

"

I’ve been sober for almost 32 years, but have found over time that AA does not help me deal with various psychological issues that led to my drinking in the first place. For that, I’ve turned to a lot of one-on-one therapy, which has been a great help.

AA is great for support when someone is first getting sober, but a lot of members often don’t want to deal with the underlying issues. There’s also a trend for members to repeat slogans and quotes from AA literature, maintaining a public face, stating, “God wants me to be happy, joyous, and free.” Sadly, when life changes happen to them, rather than coping with them, these people frequently disappear, though sometimes they may return, looking more haggard and worn.

I’ve also become disenchanted with what I’ve seen as an increasing tendency in AA to be more vocally Christian in attitude and approach. Prayers from a Christian view. Responsive reading of AA texts, as if in church. Sharing focused on God, Higher Power, and even Jesus.

One reason I originally felt safe in AA was because I felt unconditional love for me as an openly gay man, but now I see even that disappearing, as members share about the help they’ve received from churches, churches that I know have a homophobic agenda.

One piece of advice I heard when I first got sober was, “Take what you like and leave the rest,” very helpful for seeking meetings more amenable. And, like the poster above, I have also found that gay AA meetings have not been my favorite, which I have discovered to be more social than supportive.

AA can be a wonderful tool for active self-help, but, if I don’t work on myself, I’ll continue to live in habitually negative behaviors, which will eventually lead me back to escapist substances.

It’s my choice."

"Self important, brainwashed tools."

If it helps people have better lives, I can’t knock it.

Problem is that addictive personalities just find a new addiction. I will concede that diet soda or yoga is less harmful than alcohol! But some get addicted to shopping, the religion they find, or the program itself. *shrug*

We are all struggling with something.

[quote] R45: It's very hard work dealing with all these basket cases for a prolonged period of time and getting them into some semblance of human beings. That is why I admire AA as a group (although I ultimately decided it was not right for me)

This is a good example of a passive aggressive statement. There are a lot of them in this thread.

religious even though they claim not to be

"If it helps people have better lives, I can’t knock it."

Yes R56--but when they knock YOU for questioning them using the sledgehammer of their religion, you CAN knock it!

But you're right:we are all struggling with something.

Too often these people feel their struggle for the solution or family of support is found. And if youre not in that family, WATCH OUT!

I’m starting to think the person with the cognitive imparement is posting upthread to agree with themselves. And please don’t bother denying that you’d ever do such a thing. You obviously would, and have in the past. You’re angry with AA, probably with everybody, but with AA at the moment, and you’re posting whatever half-baked nonsense you can invent about it.

Why you would bother is a good question. It’s not like you’re going to threaten AA’s existence. You’re not going to hurt AA’s feelings. You might dissuade a few troubled people who really do need the kind of free, voluntary, self-directed group support and, yes, help, that AA provides. Congratulations, you impotent monster.

[quote] R51: You still have to say the Our Father at the end of meetings. (Or stand silently while everyone else says it.)

Then find another meeting. I hear the Our Father said in maybe one meeting out of a hundred. It’s usually when a meeting is led by a guest who is unfamiliar with the groups normal routine and who happens to be a dinosaur. In any event, it won’t be the only thing you hear that you will want to ignore. Just like in any social gathering, incidentially.

I know NA and AA have worked for many people. I also know some who got nothing out of it. I don't have an addiction myself but I'm the child of an alcoholic so I'm familiar with the Big Book, 12 steps, etc. There is one quote that is used in 12-step programs: Take what you need and leave the rest. No group or person can give anyone everything they need. This is true of AA as well. I've found that the people that OP describes tend to be those who are relatively new in their recovery. They act like all the newly converted who don't understand or acknowledge the shades of grey that years of experience provide.

The Friends episode when Monica's boyfriend becomes a big bore after AA is like a documentary.

CI guy here. No, I did not have to agree with myself. There are plenty of people who have been in the program and know what it is like. I think many here do not have a lot of experience with the program and believe that the way media represents it is the literal truth.

And sorry, but the Our Father is said in most AA groups and a lot of NA groups. I have been to many AA groups and occasionally someone will try something different. But in 95% of the meetings you go to, it is the Our Father.

[quote]R31 Similar with “changing your career”. Unless you’re a drug dealer, prostitute, or alcohol taster, no one suggests this. Perhaps the author was chronically complaining about her job?

When I got sober in NYC, the feeling was that you made as FEW major changes as possible in your life during your first year of sobriety. Because obviously moving, or a breakup, or a job change can trigger enormous feelings that may in turn make you want to drink, and you're at your most vulnerable during your first year. So for that year, you just hang on and try to only deal with the change of not drinking...

The whole idea of people giving you advice in AA seems pretty inflated by OP. I've never been swarmed by other members advising me what to do...no one wants to be responsible for a fellow member making a choice that doesn't work for them. People have to make their OWN decisions and live with them. Even my sponsor used to preface everything with, "Would you like my opinion?"

Basically, it's a program for grownups.

R65, that is an interesting perspective. I have never been to a group where new members have not moved, just got out of prison, went to rehab, etc. It probably is different if you are getting clean in the same place where you have been for awhile.

It might be different in NYC. My experience has been people who lost everything, with few resources, trying to get a decent job, a place to live. A lot of what is good in the program is that people have good ideas for putting your life together. I cannot imagine what a sponsor would do at all in a place where group members are more stable.

From that list, I assume OP is a member of AA.

[quote]R66 that is an interesting perspective. I have never been to a group where new members have not moved, just got out of prison, went to rehab, etc. It probably is different if you are getting clean in the same place where you have been for awhile. It might be different in NYC. My experience has been people who lost everything, with few resources, trying to get a decent job, a place to live.

Well, there are some changes one HAS to make. If you're getting sober because you were fired, then yeah, you do have to find a job. Or if your partner threw you out, there's no way to not deal with that breakup. But the thinking I encountered was, Don't rush into a bunch of major life changes just because you feel you're suddenly seeing clearly. Keep your basic life going, because it at least has some continuity to it. Concentrate on not going to bars, on not hanging out with active drunks, on not drinking...because that is a tall enough order, which many many people can't stick with. Basically, keep it simple. Don't create a bunch of NEW crap to deal with, because you already have ENOUGH to deal with just by putting down the bottle.

It's probably not the best time to instigate a divorce and begin a battle over child custody, etc., if you can avoid it.

R68, you have a very different way of looking at this than most people in AA.

[quote]R69 [R68], you have a very different way of looking at this than most people in AA.

Well, everyone's experience is different. That's what I heard when I got sober. It worked for me, and I've been sober for 25+ years.

I always heard that the steps are about changing your life and if you keep living the same way, then you are not doing the steps.

Usually there is one big change for each of the first three steps.

I heard that AA functions like a cult. Giving your personal information to people you do not know is a very bad idea too. Also, research proves that AA is not really effective, and there are other forms of treatment that is proven to work. Also, there is harm reduction.

I had to go to an AA meeting a couple of times and that is exactly what those people were like. I had alcoholic parents, so I went to several ALANON meetings as well. Those people are pretty fucked up too. The worse ones are the gay group members. There was a lot of cliques and they weren't as friendly as the straights in their groups.

[quote]R71 I always heard that the steps are about changing your life and if you keep living the same way, then you are not doing the steps. Usually there is one big change for each of the first three steps.

The first three steps are internal changes...it doesn't mean you automatically ditch your apartment, partner, or job.

Where I got sober, you often did your 4th step by the end of your first year. It was really [italic] "Don't Drink, and Go to Meetings" [/italic] for that first year. There's so much to take in, and you're also detoxing on top of it all. Getting sober is really like going to Life College. You're learning all this new stuff and dealing with supressed feelings that are coming up. How can you really see your role in things and make honest ammends when you're in the throes of your first year sober? Just take a seat and hang on; you're in this for the long haul.

None of my sponsors ever bought that "internal change" stuff. They wanted clear proof you did the step. (And yes, I think it was a power thing.)

It made me feel like crap that I could not do it. I was too afraid of losing what little I had for the sake of doing the steps.

Maybe I was too much of a snob, but I thought if I did what they said I would end up in a low level job for the rest of my life, struggling to make ends meet. And maybe there is a reason professionals usually do not last long in the program.

The OP seems to be exactly what he thinks he is calling out.

AA is not a cult- no one order or tells anyone to do anything. You don’t have to religious or believe in God and it’s “members” are as varied as the community where any group meets.

Most important AA is really only for people who think they have a problem with alcohol- and drugs as well.

No more, no less. And for me, this and to be in the company of people with the same problem as me, only on the other side of the problem- was huge. Some were jerks, many were wonderful and full of good will and advice and distraction from using.

In any case, AA only matter to the alcoholic or addict, no one else.

Apologies for the typos above- need to edit before I post :)

[quote]R75 None of my sponsors ever bought that "internal change" stuff. They wanted clear proof you did the step. (And yes, I think it was a power thing.) It made me feel like crap that I could not do it. I was too afraid of losing what little I had for the sake of doing the steps.

It sounds like you had a sponsor you were not very in tune with. It's too bad you didn't fire them and find a different one you could trust.

[quote]R75 And maybe there is a reason professionals usually do not last long in the program.

Cite source for this, please.

R79, about 10 years of going to meetings.

Two words (AA terms): DRY DRUNKS.

[quote] If I had to go around and apologize to everyone I hurt when I was on a bender.......I wouldn't have time for anything else.

I hope you're being sarcastic, because remorseless alcoholics deserve to die in the most painful and degrading way possible.

[quote]R77 Apologies for the typos above- need to edit before I post

Progress, not perfection : )

AA has a lot of variation. But there are cult-like meetings within it. Clancy and the Pacific Group in LA and its corresponding Atlantic Group in NYC. It helps who it helps. There are more alternatives out there and people should find what works for them. Stay away from the cult-like meetings however.

I was molested at an AA meeting.

and I was molested by an AA MEMBER

even though I dont have an addiction

and never went to a meeting

AA members switch their addictions for alcohol to AA.

The gay meetings are the worst...the gay, sober version of Heathers or Mean Girls... I've been sober for a decade now. I had two sponsors. One is back to drinking because he realized that meth was his real addiction. The other one has transitioned...the cliques are something awful. I got tired of being bullied into fellowshipping... going out for coffee with a bunch of crazy loons... hearing all the old war stories and how fabulous everything is. Try getting a word in edgewise - good luck with that. Everyone has to be the center of attention... Not that the straight ones are any better. Especially the old timers with long term sobriety... I can't stand those meetings where they're the majority...they only pick each other to talk, like playing b-ball and no one wants to throw the ball to you. And it's nothing but twelve step slogans and bon mots. I still don't drink, but I haven't been to a meeting in three years. I have a good therapist and hang out with very few people...AA folks, me included, are nuts. But I can be a nut all by myself, don't need any help.

Carrie Fisher (RIP) was a long-time AA'er and she passed while under the influence. Yet another victim of the dangerous and faulty claims of the twelve steps and it's superficial 'group support.'

Oh my. Where do I begin?

30 years in and out of recovery. The God shit is real, despite what they say. It's fundamental that you surrender to something greater than yourself, so most go with God. They will even crouch it as 'good orderly direction' for nonbelievers. The sponsor shit is real. Some who got sober swear that theirs is the only path that will get you to stop. I've seen and had sponsors who fancied themselves degreed experts and lived to dole out advice. The relapse rate is real. Less than 7% I think was the most recent statistic, even lower for meth. The $cieno's have the best recovery rate ironically, and theirs isn't that much better - less than 15%. The simple truth is that iit's a cult populated by people who were total trainwrecks when they were drinking and using and are most are now writing off the damage that they did (and continue to do clean/sober) as 'addict behavior'. Most have never really delved into the real underlying motivations of their substance use, instead they use other people's stories as evidence, sighting the similarities as evidence. It's kinda sad on some levels. But if you are truly desperate, and follow everything the big book tells you to do, you will get clean and sober. You just might be more miserable than you were before unless you get to the bottom of things with a professional.

SMART recovery works for me. I'm also part of a peer-based support group for guys trying to break the meth thing. It's non 12-step, though a number of people from 12-step programs participate. Find your own path and do what is gonna be most effective for you OP.

And finally.......people stop using when they are ready to stop using and not a moment before. All the prodding, cajoling, promising, etc. isn't gonna do shit. Neither are forced rehab stints. It starts and ends with the individual.

Now I',m stepping off of MY soapbox.

step right back UP R91 -THAT WAS WONDERFULLY HELPFUL!

And I just read R91 again--

YOU are a man with much to teach,

You write beautifully and with great depth and give me faith in humans

and what they can achieve when theyre willing to do the work and face themselves.

May all good things come your way.

Youve EARNED them!!

Thank you for your contribution,not just to us but to life itself!

R60, the OP of this thread, previous anti-12-step threads, and the source of your correct intuition that somebody is talking to and agreeing with themselves within this thread, is Poo Shoes, D@vida R0chelle, who does this all over Datalounge. Block one of the suspected posts, and look at your blocked list. It will be full of activity site-wide.

Poo is a source of bewildering mental illness, and has nothing that healthy people find worth paying attention to.

I love AA meetings...

tell us why R95

Balance out the equation

Seriously interested

R96 Because at the good ones, people drop their masks, and they are talking honestly about something dramatic you've lived, yourself. You can have a movie star on one side of you and a garbage collector on the other side, and for that one hour, you're all equal. You are all intimately united.

thanks for that. I see what youre saying.

I love AA too. I’ve met some really good and solid people there. I’ve also met PLENTY of fucked up ones. But this is why we have intuition. It helps us stay away from the crazies.

R94, Poo has been out and about with a vengeance in the last few days. God, what a sick and fucked up woman she is. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people just like her in AA.

someone sounds like they better get to a meeting soon^

[quote]R99 I love AA too. I’ve met some really good and solid people there. I’ve also met PLENTY of fucked up ones. But this is why we have intuition. It helps us stay away from the crazies. [R94], Poo has been out and about with a vengeance in the last few days. God, what a sick and fucked up woman she is. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people just like her in AA.

A great thing about AA, especially if you branch out and check out different meetings, is there's such a variety of people there...literally from all walks of life. Then you listen to what people have to say, and seek out the ones you feel a natural affiliation with. You hear someone say "I was working in a bank" or "I was a housewife" or "I was dancing backup in Vegas" and you can go to them afterwards and say, "Oh god, that was my story, too!"

Or it's maybe even MORE special when you have absolutely nothing in common with the specifics of someone's life, but you deeply identify with their story, anyway.

I liked it when I heard someone say once, [italic] "We were all different, and we were all exactly the same." [/italic]

[quote] R75: Maybe I was too much of a snob, but I thought if I did what they said I would end up in a low level job for the rest of my life, struggling to make ends meet. And maybe there is a reason professionals usually do not last long in the program.

This post starts with more passive aggression. Ends with another gratuitous lie about the program.

Groups can help and also hurt the individual.

Look what happened to much of the uniqueness of homosexuals with inclusion into the group.

But would one want to go back to being shunned?

I dont know. Its a toss up.

But we need groups as much as groups need individuals.

And some addictions cant be managed in a group.

But for some, some might.

The god?higher power thing is a deal breaker for me; Giving over your power a 2nd time.

[quote]R103 Look what happened to much of the uniqueness of homosexuals with inclusion into the group.

What does this mean?

for starters R104

and homosexuality ITSELF was once considered as horrific an addiction/disease as anything AA could cover,no

Be careful about your group affiliations and cures for individual problems!

We should all recognize that AA people are also members of society that we meet everywhere. It’s not like they are confined only to meetings. .

yes, and EVERYONE has to decide how much he can depend on groups of others to help him solve personal problems even though theyre shared by the group.

INDIVIDUALITY IS HARD WON

[quote]R108 INDIVIDUALITY IS HARD WON

Not really. We come into the world with it.

R105 What does that article have to do with AA? Or gays in AA?

I don't get your point....

I fucking LOVE r91!

join the club R111!!! Me too!! You hearin this R91?!

group hug!

Nobody in AA MAKES you stop drinking. It's so idiotic to create this false "success rate" because any sober person at ANY time can just decide to go back to drinking! AA didn't fail them, they just changed their minds! Of course most crash and burn because alkies have a very loud voice telling them that they can handle it. Nobody goes back to drinking without deciding to! The door swings both ways.

I love gay meetings in NYC, some of the warmest nicest guys I know. I can't reconcile the Bitter Betty above screaming about cliques not letting her be part of the gang and then whining that he was forced to go socialize with people against his will! Well Mary are you IN or OUT! Nobody FORCED you to do anything, quit being such an alcoholic LIAR! You're a scream, really!

I ask this with great respect R110

How old are you ?

Because the really young often dont have a reference point for the price to be paid for acceptance into a group that now (as with YouTube coming out videos for example) all too readily accepts you.,

instead of wrestling alone or one on one with one's inner challenges .

It was IN exile that many a great man found his genius: in that challenge of self questioning.

Not outer group acceptance or affiliation.

Or "cure"

Someone invite R113 to that next meeting.

[quote]R114 Because the really young often dont have a reference point for the price to be paid for acceptance into a group that now (as with YouTube coming out videos for example) all too readily accepts you. (etc. etc. etc.)

I don't understand if you're trying your hand at writing poetry...or what. You certainly aren't answering my question as to what your article has to do with AA, or gays in AA.

But to answer your question, I am age 50, with 25 years sober.

If you dont get the connection between that article and AA and gays joining the group called heterosexuals circa 2017 R116, then its not for you to get right now.

Peace

that TRY it came from another post.

Sorry

[quote]R117 If you dont get the connection between that article and AA and gays joining the group called heterosexuals circa 2017 [R116], then its not for you to get right now.

Or, maybe you could just express yourself better.

or maybe you could learn to make simple connections .

Poetry might help

[quote]R120 or maybe you could learn to make simple connections . Poetry might help

Or, again, maybe you could just express yourself better.

AA is not some monolithic group in which every member speaks and acts the same. Often it's less important what is said in the meeting and more important to just have a meeting to go to. The tone and subject matter of each group can vary and it may take time to find the right group for you. There are alternatives to AA, such as Smart Recovery, which focus on the rational aspects of 12 Stepping (I.e. None of that higher power stuff). Lots of members think their journey and approach is the only way and can get overbearing with their "advice". Writing off all people in AA is a misinformed asshole move.

[quote]And sorry, but the Our Father is said in most AA groups and a lot of NA groups. I have been to many AA groups and occasionally someone will try something different. But in 95% of the meetings you go to, it is the Our Father.

Not in meetings I go to. It's the Serenity Prayer 99% of the time.

R69, my experience in AA has been like r68's. I've been sober for 30+ years. I have never experienced the "sponsors make my life choices" type of sobriety, though I've heard of it. There was something called "the Midtown Group" in DC. I stayed away from those people. They weren't AA. They were using AA to boost their own egos, the opposite of AA or the steps.

We have scored large sizemeat from AA meetings but the sex was no good.

I've been to family gatherings where an aunt stood up and said she's been clean and sober for six months. She then huddled in a corner with another family member (another AA member though we were not supposed to know it). The family party was ruined when one of my nephews - who was hauling down the booze- went out to his car and a note was taped to the door that his ignition key was gone from his key set and he needed help and they would take him to a midnight meeting. He came back in furious called those 2 bitches every name in the book and demanded his ignition key. They stood up together and castigated him saying they were going to save him. They were so pompous and self righteous it was sickening. So to sum it all up those family gatherings continued without those 2 aunties.

The Serenity Prayer is the default in East Coast cities.

[quote]R126 a note was taped to the door that his ignition key was gone from his key set and he needed help and they would take him to a midnight meeting.

trying to figure out how they supposedly got his key.

Did one of them suck him off and the other went through his pockets while his jeans were on the floor? Then, they somehow got the key ring back onto his person?

R128, I didn't even think about that but you're right. I was wondering why the family is upset with the two people who may have prevented some drunk idiot from killing innocent people with his car? How DARE they!!

[quote]R129 I was wondering why the family is upset with the two people who may have prevented some drunk idiot from killing innocent people with his car? How DARE they!!

If they actually exist, the OUTRAGED family members were probably all so drunk themselves they don't remember the incident correctly.

They just woke up in a pile on the carpet in the morning...

any hot hookups? Hot, damaged, messes often offer up the best sex.

People who need to attack AA are generally looking for an excuse to keep abusing alcohol.

R132, this kind of game playing is what is so maddening about AA. If one has any problem with AA it is because of some personal flaw, because the program is perfect.

I think the need to believe that any human institution is beyond criticism leads to many bad things.

[quote]R133 this kind of game playing is what is so maddening about AA.

I don't think that was AA posting.

R134, it might not be clear, but AA could not actually post. Most people understand that.

However, people in AA can post and this one demonstrated a common thread of thought shared by many members, that the program is perfect (some even claim divinely inspired) and that if it is not effective for some people, it is because there is something wrong with them.

Agree with R43

And R47's "It gave them "strength" of numbers. Yet it denied them the strength as INDIVIDUALS for they found comfort in shared weakness and bonding over wounds they were told would NEVER heal."

and R49's "AA does not help me deal with various psychological issues that led to my drinking in the first place."

And the person who commented that AA becomes the new addiction.

The AA people I met had a real hard, deep nastiness about them that I have never seen anywhere else to that degree. And somehow, after that they think they can be self-righteous, too.[?] It's very cult-like, ready to attack those not in the cult. They are taught to think that way and they bring themselves down to a low level which they think is great. They come across as very unhappy, but are clueless about this.

They ARE ignoring the psychological issues that drove them to drink and the related behavior. They may talk about them ad naseum, but ther is no genuine self-reflection. The "new" them is a very unhappy person, with all the childhood or adolescent unhappiness and personality disorders still there.

[quote]Look what happened to much of the uniqueness of homosexuals with inclusion into the group.

Inclusion into the group means being destroyed by the group. Once seen as a group, gay men (and lesbians) were used by politicians to win elections (whether they were pro or anti), and they were used by marketers and Hollywood who dished out stereotypes. Finally, they have been used and taken over by Trans and the destruction is complete: T silences gay opinion and input in organizations and orchestrates a gay cleanse of young people.

You can find a LOT of hot cock at AA.

I'm wondering why, as the relapse rate is so high, the courts always insist on AA if you have committed an alcohol-related crime. My partner was arrested for public intoxication,and had to go to,AA,meetings...no other choices given.

Because there is nothing else out there, R139? Because no one has looked into AA closely? Because they want to look like they are doing something? Because the alternatives of psychological rehab and therapy would cost money?

I attended AA meetings for over 12 years and was sober that entire time. AA taught me a lot of things, and, generally, the people in it were good people. Ultimately, for me, several things made me leave AA. (1) The God thing. The AA literature is filled with it, and so are the rooms. I became an atheist during those 12 years, and it killed me every time I'd hear someone in the AA room say something like, "I guess God was looking out for me, because I got that parking space and was on time to the meeting." I found the AA people and their notion of God and how he worked in their sober lives to be .... shocking and selfish. (2) Mental Health Issues. After a while I was tired out by the crazy people in the rooms. They would share about their meds, their moods, etc. I was just there to be sober from alcohol. So many have deep, anti-social mental problems, I began to feel like part of the asylum -- and I didn't like that. (3) The Disease Concept. "I have a disease." "I can never be rid of the disease of alcoholism." "I suffer from a disease." After 12 years of talking about myself (and hearing others talk about themselves) as having a "disease," one day I decided ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I hate feeling like I'm fundamentally broken. And I hate hearing the other people make excuses for their shitty behavior by saying they suffer from a "disease." I don't like the concept at all, and it's what AA centers around. (4) Yes, ultimately, some of the people convinced me to leave AA. I have seen sober pillars of the community jump up and down at AA board meetings screaming, "Fuck you! Fuck you! Fuck you! Fuck you!" like temperamental children. They appear so serene and wise when the share in meetings, but behind the scenes they are ruthless and horrible people. I've had close friends fuck me over by acting immature, then be completely unable to discuss it with me --- using THE TOOLS AND LANGUAGE OF THE PROGRAM ITSELF. Why the fuck were they acting like that if they could not amend their behavior or even discuss it as an adult?? There are a lot of broken, dysfunctional people in AA. Hey, listen, I was one of them. But since I left AA, I can now say I have adult, loving, responsive, communicative people in my life now. And they all drink. LOL. I'm not saying drinking is better --- there are some people who cannot drink without going on benders, I GET IT. HOWEVER .... my experience is that I stopped growing as a person in AA because of the reasons I listed above. And since leaving, I have changed and grown.

R141, I understand where you’re coming from. Just curious: have you remained sober?

[quote]R141 But since I left AA, I can say I have adult, loving, responsive, communicative people in my life now. And they all drink. LOL.

Why couldn't you have those friends when you were in AA? The whole program is supposed to be "a bridge back to life," not a temperance movement for the entire population.

My sister has been in AA for however the fuck long and I can tell you, in her case add 'angry' 'spiteful' 'foul-mouthed' 'self-pitying' and 'aggressive' to the list.

She also skipped the step where you are meant to apologise to those you harmed / hurt because of your addictions. Or as I prefer to call them 'behavioural patterns of choice'.

I had a sponsor (happened to be a celebrity) who fell in love with me and gave advice and direction based on his own desires and needs. I ended up catching on before it became problematic but it unfortunately ended the friendship.

My other sponsor shunned me and stopped talking to me when Ieft AA but said I still wanted to maintain contact and practice some of the principles.

I agree with a lot said on this thread. I think there are positives to the program especially for those just getting sober. But in the end, you have to find what’s right for you. And for a program like this to say they work to eradicate fear (and that’s why one really drinks and destructs), only to instill fear back in you with the statement, “if you ever drink again you will lose everything and more or less die” is truly hypocritical by nature.

I currently enjoy wine from time to time. Love it.

Yes, alcoholics should just die, rather than band together to try to help each other.

It's like the blind leading the blind!

Ya GET that, R121?

R137 answers for you your question regarding my post.

ALL that applies to the INDIVIDUAL-GROUP dynamic

As AA is a GROUP for individuals.

And as such, stereotypes at the individuals expense just as straight culture has done to SOME degree in allowing you into their GROUP.

Enticed by their fellowship and free coffee and donuts.

You win some, you lose some.

"I heard that AA functions like a cult. Giving your personal information to people you do not know is a very bad idea too"

BINGO . You have to divulge everything on your 4th step to your sponsor. Your sponsor is not mandated by confidentiality laws like therapists.. I have seen sponsors talk shit about their sponsies behind their back. Some reveal excruciating details about their past etc.. DANGEROUS

"If you are "not willing to go to any length," they say you might as well give up on getting clean and sober."

Yes! and my other favorite " Are you willing to do whatever it takes" That is a controlling ass sponsor . I have seen people develop PTSD from AA

[quote] R149: BINGO . You have to divulge everything on your 4th step to your sponsor...

No, this is another lie by the OP in her crusade to blame her own problems on AA.

The Big Book is clear that you can do the forth step with anyone, including a priest, therapist, or the stranger on the subway during your morning commute. It’s your choice. Don’t blame AA for another bad choice in a lifetime of bad choices if you do it with someone unwillingly. The Big Book is also clear that there are certain things you do not admit to a layman, such as a crime, when you should get professional guidance.

Boston has a Franciscan order associated with the late Fr. Mychal Judge, the Gay NYC Fire Dept Chaplain who died when a falling body fell on him at the WTC in 9-11, when he was giving last rites to another. He was also sober. Anyway, these Fryers provide, as a free service to the community, a non-denominational 4th step. Aside from their attire, the Franciscans are skilled at being nondenominational. If you’re Catholic, you can do a forth step as part of the Sacrement of Confession, as they are similar enough to do together if you so believe and choose.

My Sponsor assumed that he would hear my fourth step, but I told him I would do it with a priest instead. That’s was it. My life, my choice. So, there are a lot of options.

R151 IS AN AA Nazi!! Most sponsors would be offended(imagine that) if u refused to read your 4th step. They will say "You are only as sick as your secrets" You are not willing ... ad naseum

It is funny how vague the Big Book is on how you actually do the first three steps. That is left to the individual sponsor's discretion.

But the fourth step, which is really where the goods get put out, it described in detail in the Big Book. They even should you a little chart you can use to make your inventory.

I've been sober for 15 months in AA and this thread makes me want to say fuck it and drink.

Congratulations, OP. Hope you feel good about what you're putting out into the world.

R154 Hah, I even mentioned this thread at my meeting today and many of us all got a good chuckle. Keep up the good work, I will be three years Monday, the 1st.

R154, part of the problem is that you need to take responsibility for yourself, rather than blame others.

If you want to drink you do not need OP. You can find someone else like your boss or your parents or even just some random person on the street that you can use as an excuse to drink.

I'll have 20 years of sobriety, without AA , next year.

AA was fine until it became infested with druggies. I had to leave. Druggies are different, bring in terrible issues, and long ago ruined AA.

R157 I hear ya..its a different ball game and may be the eventual downfall of AA.

R158,

yep, it's one thing to have a metabolic problem with alcohol (coupled with deep melancholy) and another thing to nurture some underworld, law breaking background that exalts deception and thievery.

I am an alcoholic that cannot relate to 99% of the people in AA, so why should i stay?

R159, look for what you identify with in others, not what separates you.

The idea that addicts are involved in "law breaking background that exalts deception and thievery" sounds like terminal uniqueness. The idea that alcoholism is a "metabolic problem" only flies in the face of AA which describes alcoholism as a spiritual malady.

I have known a larger number of high functioning addicts than alcoholics. I cannot say more of them were thieves and liars than the alcoholics I have know.

But if it makes you feel better about yourself to tell yourself that you are different, you probably would have a tough time in AA anyway.

Oh gawd here it goes with the AA sheeple response--I AM different than most AA druggies, everyone IS unique, and I don't know why that is considered so 'evil' in AA, "spiritual malady" nonsense--which means of course that one must follow the AA version of the 'correct' religion, the "we are all liars and thieves" mantra which is another LIE---you forgot 'dry drunk' honey.

[quote]R151 The Big Book is clear that you can do the forth step with anyone, including a priest, therapist, or the stranger on the subway during your morning commute. It’s your choice. Don’t blame AA for another bad choice in a lifetime of bad choices if you do it with someone unwillingly. The Big Book is also clear that there are certain things you do not admit to a layman, such as a crime, when you should get professional guidance.

Truthfully, one can switch sponsors as often as they like, and even go for periods (or even their whole sobriety) without a sponsor. It's not like you're carded at the door and you sign in, identifying you have a sponsor.

There's a very good, free, 30 page brochure called QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ON SPONSORSHIP (copyright 1976, 1983) that could have established sponsorship guidelines for a lot of the tortured sould on this thread. It is unfortunate -- for their own peace of mind -- that they never took the time to read it : (

Link below, for those who are still unclear....

[quote]R157 AA was fine until it became infested with druggies.

I go to one meeting that is specifically AA. It says everyone is welcome, but sharing is reserved for those who identify as alcoholics, and others are to refrain from contributing to the 7th Tradition basket at the break. Another meeting I go to is for "Double Winners" (or cross addicted.) (My sponsor asked me if that's for people addicted to crucifixes.)

The stray druggie might end up in an AA meeting by accident, but they're then usually pointed to N.A.

If you're picky, a sure way to satisfaction is to Just start your own AA meeting and develop the format you like.

It's funny the only people I've known who have the level of hate/distrust in AA that I see in this thread are those who were court ordered to attend.

R162, I was in the program for a very long time and never saw anything from AA as to the point and direct as that brochure.

They ought to give stuff like that out to members. Or at least let them know that they can find it on the internet.

[quote]R159 I am an alcoholic that cannot relate to 99% of the people in AA, so why should i stay?

Only you can answer that. Of course you're always free to look for whatever help you decide you need, anywhere in the world.

AA will still be there if you ever want to give it another shot.

[quote]R165 I was in the program for a very long time and never saw anything from AA as to the point and direct as that brochure. They ought to give stuff like that out to members.

Well, that pamphlet's been around since 1976. It's not a secret. There's usually a little table with free literature at larger AA meetings, and that brochure's one of the most popular ones. Did you ever look at any of the literature? At meetings that have literature, they usually anounce it during the secretary's break.

[quote]Or at least let them know that they can find it on the internet.

It's on the AA website. At some meetings you get a Newcomer's Packet, which has that brochure, plus a few more like "A Newcomer's Guide to AA" or whatever. But not everything's handed to you. You go to an AA bookstore and look around, or look on the AA website, orgo to a literature based meeting once in a while. The one I go to reads 20 minutes from that pamphlet once a month.

If someone raises their hand and shares that they're having a problem with sponsorship, chances are someone will come over afterwards and say, "Well, there's this huge pamplet that's four decades old that discusses that very thing. Check it out."

AA bookstore? I cannot say I ever saw one anywhere.

The literature based meetings I attended used the Big Book and the 12 and 12. I cannot say that I ever saw brochures or any of the other stuff in any of the couple dozen meeting I attended. Also, they are usually pretty strict about what is allowed to be read in meetings. It has to be approved and when someone tries to share something other than the BB or 12&12 they always get told that it cannot be read. I do not know if a brochure (even if they had it) would ever be allowed.

And I cannot imagine anyone in a meeting coming over and telling someone what to read. In about 12 years of meetings I never saw that because the whole point is that you have to ask for help. You do not just get it offered.

[quote] R150: "If you are "not willing to go to any length," they say you might as well give up on getting clean and sober." Yes! and my other favorite " Are you willing to do whatever it takes"

The above two quotes are saying essentially they same thing. Among the biggest obstacles to sobriety for many people is that they think that they need not change anything, or do any work, to get sober. So, the slogans referred to above are something you might hear if you are someone who wants to be sober, but doesn’t actually want to go to meetings, or do the steps, or read recovery-related books, and so forth. It is not intended to justify you joining the French Foreign Legion.

R169, but it is used to justify telling people to quit school, stop contact with crazy parents, change jobs, volunteer to clean the sponsors mom's rain gutters etc.

The sponsorship thing is mostly about power.

[quote] AA bookstore? I cannot say I ever saw one anywhere.

There is a recovery store in Provincetown, MA. Probably every major city has one. They are not usually called an “AA” store, because AA doesn’t license its name for use by private businesses. Look for them as “recovery” related.

You can also get the pamphlets at your area’s “AA Central Services Office”. Most meetings I know of have these pamphlets, offered for free.

[quote] The literature based meetings I attended used the Big Book and the 12 and 12. I cannot say that I ever saw brochures or any of the other stuff in any of the couple dozen meeting I attended. Also, they are usually pretty strict about what is allowed to be read in meetings. It has to be approved and when someone tries to share something other than the BB or 12&12 they always get told that it cannot be read. I do not know if a brochure (even if they had it) would ever be allowed.

You should read them yourself. Many meetings have a specific format, and breaking out a pamphlet in a meeting and then attempting to read it aloud might be criticized as inappropriate for the meeting format. Aside from it being off topic, it would be rude to hog the limited time by reading something that you can read outside the meeting. Meeting time is meant to be shared with everyone. The pamphlets themselves are AA literature, so they aren’t an “outside topic”.

[quote] ...In about 12 years of meetings I never saw that because the whole point is that you have to ask for help. You do not just get it offered.

Here’s another concept/slogan that you have misunderstood. The “whole point” is to stay sober. The idea of “asking for help” doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t offer help, nor accept it if offered. In any event, “asking for help” is a tool to use to help you stay sober. But it’s not a requirement. Personally, it’s not a particularly important thing that concerns me.

OP has a point, but so have many many others.

The problem here is addictive personality is a mental disorder. Some people have it, some people don't. We can be addicted to many things: drugs, alcohol, shopping, eating, video games, you name it. It is usually caused by an underlying undiagnosed metal state driven by particular events of our past.

The problem with SOME (but not all) AA people is that they are not trained but many thinks they can diagnose what other people are. I think that applies to R126 's case where the aunt just decide her relative, while probably getting a few more than usual at a family gathering, MUST be an alcoholic. I have certainly encountered people who attend meetings who think anyone who drink more than a drink a month is some kind of horrible addict. They are projecting their addiction on other people.

The other thing is the religion thing. AA has a lot of the same characteristics of religious conversion, which means new members are often a bit zealous and eager to preach about the power of AA. The religious aspects of the program itself magnify that effect. They WANT you to sing praises of the program to anyone and everyone. In effect some members merely switch from addiction to drugs or alcohol to attending meetings and talk about the meetings. They hang with each other because they share the same "addiction" of attending meetings and talk about it, automatically creating an echo chamber of self-affirmation and self-congratulation that allows them to judge people who are outside of their group. When people become part of that echo chamber, they sometimes turn to extremes, that is why some posters here talk about sponsors who encourage shunning family members or breaking friendships like R32 . Their world revolve around them, and so people who are not confirming their world view is wrong.

One last thing to remember: Most people don't attend recovery programs proactively. In fact, a lot of people go to AA because they have hit rock bottom first, and a lot are mandated to attend by court or pressure from family members. Therefore, most have a LOT of issues that came with their life experiences even before they step foot in the door.

LGBT people as a whole have more addiction issues than other communities, and the AA method is only good for some. There is a need for alternative programs that rely less of religion style dogma and focus on resolving underlying issues that drives the addiction in the first place.

R170: [R169], but it is used to justify telling people to quit school, stop contact with crazy parents, change jobs, volunteer to clean the sponsors mom's rain gutters etc. The sponsorship thing is mostly about power.

I’ve never heard of anyone telling anyone to do any of the above, and you’re not a credible person in my estimation.

I suspect that you’re a chronic complainer who seeks out the most disfuctional people, so that you can complain even more. I can imagine people getting tired of your constant complaining and yet being unwilling to do anything to change. Anyone might suggest you change the job, the friends, whatever you’re complaining about all the time, if it’s making you so miserable.

R173 : It is NOT that unusual to abuse power. I have never seen it first hand but as a student of human behavior with a PhD to match, I can tell you that people have a tendency to abuse any authority given them, even something as meager as a sponsor's power. Program participants wants to become well, and they trust their sponsors to help them get there, and I would not be surprised that some would abuse the trust given to them by manipulating and controlling the behavior of the sponsee.

[quote]R168 I do not know if a brochure (even if they had it) would ever be allowed.

The meeting you went to would be against studying and discussing pamphlets....that are printed by AA?

That sounds odd.

[quote] R172: LGBT people as a whole have more addiction issues than other communities, and the AA method is only good for some. There is a need for alternative programs that rely less of religion style dogma and focus on resolving underlying issues that drives the addiction in the first place.

R172, you can do both AA related recovery [italic] and [/italic] get mental health therapy, too. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

R175 What i mean is AA style therapy is ill suited to many in the community when their underlying issue are often religion related (getting shunned by religious family for being gay, being abused in church settings, etc.) Going to AA style therapy is simply opening old wounds. There is a need for a new group therapy model that replace AA style therapy and paired with professional mental health therapy.

R172 They WANT you to sing praises of the program to anyone and everyone.

Mmmmm.....No. Tradition 11 stresses that AA is about "attraction rather than promotion." You don't go out and recruit for AA. They are there if someone seeks them out.

Even if one goes and speaks at a jail or institution, it's just "this is what AA is, and how you can find us if you're interested."

Re: R176

I forgot to mention that the best way to become familiar with the AA literature is to volunteer to be a group's literature person. Then you're the one who's replenishing the literature by going to AA Intergroup once a month, or whatever, picking out what you think is interesting and helpful, and manning the table.

R175, I do not know for sure. I just never saw them in the decade plus I was in the program and I know that there was a lot of recovery literature that was not allowed.

[quote]R177 Going to AA style therapy is simply opening old wounds.

What is "AA style therapy"?

AA is not therapy, and does not intend to be.

R173, sponsors do not ask you to change things that you are unhappy with. That would not be a sacrifice showing wilingness..

One of the stresses was that I really loved my job (still with the same organization) and I loved my home. I would not quit or move. Because I was so "unwilling", I could not get a new sponsor after those two. I loved things in my life more than sobriety they said.

To be fair, it was true. For me sobriety was a road to get me where I wanted to go, rather than an end in itself.

R181 Sorry i should have proofread myself before i lick. I mean AA style meetings. My point still stands though: AA doctrine is too closely related to religion (and so many meetings are conducted and hosted by religious organizations).

[quote]R182 One of the stresses was that I really loved my job (still with the same organization) and I loved my home. I would not quit or move. Because I was so "unwilling", I could not get a new sponsor after those two. I loved things in my life more than sobriety they said.

Your experience sounds, frankly, screwy. In all of AA, there was no one willing to be your sponsor after the first two? You've never given enough detail to grasp what your situation WAS. You're saying two sponsors told you (not even suggested) you quit your job and move...to "learn humility"?

[quote]To be fair, it was true. For me sobriety was a road to get me where I wanted to go, rather than an end in itself.

That is in alignment with what AA is about. It's supposed to be "a bridge back to life."

R182, sponsors do go around demanding sacrifice.

R185, you have GOT to be kidding me.

R178 I am not disagreeing with you but from my experience (which is not particularly scientific) about half of the people who I know are in recovery cannot stop talking about recovery and how AA has helped them. They shared all over social media, or talk your ear off in person.

R184, I am sorry, but I should have used AA language. Sponsors do not tell you to do anything. They make suggestions.

But they might dump you if you do not follow their suggestions.

Or at the very least, remind you constantly that any problems in you life stem from not following their suggestions.

[quote] R182: To be fair, it was true. For me sobriety was a road to get me where I wanted to go, rather than an end in itself.

Yes, R182, you’re too good, too honest. We’re all so sorry for you, that those monsters in AA were mean to you.

Sobriety generally isn’t considered an end in itself. It more like the beginnning of something new.

[quote] R188: [R184], I am sorry, but I should have used AA language

Baby steps first, R188. Start with using the English language.

My husband is in AA. He's been quietly going to meetings for 8 years. I drink in front of him and he's fine with it. He's not judgmental. In fact, he's one of the kindest, funniest people I know. If I'm struggling with a problem, he'll share something with me that he learned in AA that almost always helps. It seems incredible to me that we, who hate to be pigeonholed by stereotypes, can be so free to do the same thing.

OP, you nailed it.

[quote] R187 about half of the people who I know are in recovery cannot stop talking about recovery and how AA has helped them. They shared all over social media, or talk your ear off in person.

Well now, little miss, that is very different from what you posted above, which was that

[quote]AA WANTS you to sing praises of the program to anyone and everyone.

Maybe you can just tell them you're not interested in hearing about their recovery. Or take them off your facebook notification list, if you don't find what they say to be of value.

You might just need new friends. Clearly, those ones are annoying you.

Yes, R188, a Sponsor might dump you, just like a sponsee can dump a Sponsor. This is true in all human interactions.

Were you one of those people who complains about problems endlessly but refuses to do any number of suggestions, intended to help? You probably developed a reputation for being an ungrateful complainer who was a lot of work, but simply refused to do anything to change so that you could stay sober. You see, it’s probably your fault for the reaction you got. It’s not AA’s fault.

It’s your problem: own it.

OP is too good, too naive! Oh, she thinks for herself. She’s too trusting. Too giving. Since AA requires the blood of new born babies for membership, OP had to opt out. She just feels too deeply. Oh, how sad!

R195

I keep seeing this person's demanding sponsor like THIS :

(supposedly they were forced to clear out the sponsor's mom's rain gutters weekly....or something?) (??)

This is unbelievable to me that because I refused to leave my career for a minimum wage job, and refused to break a lease to move to another neighborhood without good public transportation, that makes me a complainer that refuses to change my life to stay sober.

This is the infuriating bullshit of AA. I do not see what any of these things have to do with staying sober. A sponsor is not a trained psychologist or even social worker. But R194 thinks that I should have taken it on faith that leaving a secure career to work as a store clerk or waiter would somehow make me sober? Or that changing my address would help my sobriety?

And yes, because I kept my career and neighborhood, I did get a reputation as being ungrateful.

Imagine that! I did not just jump to do what I was told. That I considered the financial consequences of what I was being asked to do, proves I was more interested in money than sobriety.

Has OP been back since starting this thread? I would never use that language to describe people in AA, but I wonder if OPs experience was similar to that I and a few others her went through.

R197, I don’t believe you were told to leave your career for a minimum wage job, or to break a lease to move to another neighborhood. If you’re not completely making this all up, then you misunderstood what you were told.

And R194 did not tell you that you should have “taken it on faith that leaving a secure career to work as a store clerk or waiter would somehow make you sober?” This is another lie or misunderstanding, again. R194 did not tell you this.

I remember you, R197, from another thread

You see, OP, that I recognize you from a thread a year or more ago where you were complaining about AA on DataLounge. You used the same passive aggressive style, and disingenuousness. But then, you claimed to gotten sober in South Florida. I guess you time travelled and moved to CA so you could get sober there, too?

R199 this is just ridiculous. I was asked to do both of those things over and over for many years. I doubt that I could have misunderstood the same thing dozens of times a year for a decade. About a year ago, I ran into one of my sponsors and he was still saying that I should have given up my job because I was too materialistic to be really sober.

I think the program works better for people with lower bottoms. If I had nothing, none of this would have been difficult for me to do.

R200, I think you are conflating people. OP, South Florida guy, and the guy who made the joke about San Francisco are not the same person.

[quote]R201 About a year ago, I ran into one of my sponsors and he was still saying that I should have given up my job because I was too materialistic to be really sober.

Did you throw your glass of wine in his face? (Are you the one who likes drinking wine now?)

No, R203. I have been sober for 7 years.

I cannot even imagine drinking.

R204....Sorry, there was someone else with similar gripes about AA (upthread) who sounded like you. It's difficult when we don't use names here!

But I am glad you escaped your evil sponsor : )

There are meetings in AA, eg Pacific Group in LA, Atlantic Group in NYC, where there have been reports of sponsors telling sponsees to go into specific jobs or graduate programs. I am sure this happens elsewhere also. There is also a crazy para-AA (not officially AS but using AA ideas) organization Back to Basics which tries hard to influence AA meetings. It advocates using only the first part of the Big Book and like PG and AG is very cultlike. Very big in Texas but spreading elsewhere. I've been sober in AA since 1985. It was much looser back in the day, at least on the East Coast. I've witnessed the.growth of the cult-like elements in say, the last 20 years. Slowly at first. Faster with the internet and social media. If they overtake AS it is probably destroyed. I have been sober the whole time. I'm glad I entered in the loosey goosey period. The cults would have driven me away. I definitely take what I want and leave the rest. I have been professional psychotherapy for about five years and entered because AA was not helping with deeper problems. I said in a meeting that I could do a hundred more 4th and 5th steps and it would not help. I also don't believe in the 6th and 7th steps,.i.e. praying your defects away. I go to about one meeting to remind myself that I shouldn't pick up a drink or joint and because I still enjoy the "fellowship" aspect. Some members are crazy and I avoid them. I have developed the reputation as the eccentric oldtimer which is helpful since the nuts tend to leave me alone. It helps that I go to a meeting with a lot of attractive young men. None of whom I would try to take advantage of but they are eye candy.

Some people get disappointed because they want AA to solve all their problems and that really isn’t what AA is for. I read a number of posts here that indicate this. You can do both mental health therapy and go to AA meetings. You can also see a doctor and get meds for Depression or whatever you need. Remember that the Program isn’t your doctor and your doctor isn’t your program. Get to your “deeper” problems in therapy. Adjust your expectations of AA and sponsorship. If you go to AA and are not drinking, then that is an indication that it is working. There are millions of people for whom the program works quite well. It doesn’t help everybody, though.

Yes R207 but there are parts of AA where putside therapy is never mentioned or actively discouraged. And sponsors in the Pacific Group and Atlantic Group have discouraged the use of antidepressants. The two groups claim that is not their official stance but they created a subculture where such advice becomes prominent. I have heard hardliner outside speakers at my one group speak against therapy. Luckily not often. Of course you can do both. Regarding the antidepressants, one guy told me he almost committed suicide when he went off of them at the advice of his Atlantic Group sponsor. There was a rumored actual suicide from that in the NYC AG group. There is an official pamphlet on medications which says follow professional advice. But given developments in the last few decades General Service needs to take a more explicit stand against this, against cult like practices and against abusive sponsorship. All of which is growing in AA.

AA needs reform. There are moderate reforms it can take without touching the basic message or Big Book. General Service can come out against court mandated attendance. It is a violation of the 1st Amedment and corrupting of AA. An AA World Conference can declare that no longer acceptable. AA can speak at at the highest levels against paid 12 step facilitated therapy in rehabs. People in rehabs should be receiving professional therapy, and then information about 12 step and other group therapies (e.g. Rational Recovery). The 12 step dominance of the rehab industry would be thereby weakened. Spiritual abuse by authoritarian sponsors needs to be more explicitly addressed at the highest level, at least a pamphlet on it or updating the s sponsorship pamphlet. These are very moderate 21st century reforms, far from the more radical ones about revising the Big Book. They would make AA a safer place and one among many in the marketplace of recovery orgs with no undue advantages from the courts or rehabs.

R209 the court ordering is a HUGE issue and definitely corrupting AA, esp. in some rural areas where it is your only path to obtaining your driver's license back. When I attend some of those rural meetings like that, I edited my shares knowing that half the room did not want to be there!

For years I volunteered with an HIV/AIDS service agency. I'm sure other people here did the same. This put me in contact with a lot of people who had substance abuse problems.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that people with serious substance abuse problems lie and manipulate.

My experience leads me to take criticisms of AA with a grain of salt.

What I discovered through volunteering were the number the people I knew who were in recovery. I had no idea they were in recovery.

My experience has been that AA combined with therapy is a great combination. Unfortunately that option isn't available to many people. Even for people with premium health insurance plans often find their is a waiting list for therapists covered by their plans. There is no waiting list for AA.

Some of the posters upthread keep complaining about two groups, the Pacific Group and Atlantic Group, as being cultish or some such thing. There are actually 60,143 AA groups in the United States alone. Why don’t you just put these to groups on “ignore” in your mind, and try the other groups?

Frankly, if there were only 2 oddball groups out of 60,143; I would be happily surprised. That’s just 0.003%. By comparison, can you say that less than 0.003% of the individuals you know are crazy or assholes? I’m sure my rate of odd acquaintances would be much higher than that.

Maybe the complainers here should stop trying to control what goes on in some oddball meeting and find a meeting where they fit in better. You have plenty of choices.

R212 In both NYC and LA Atlantic and Pacific Group members have aggressively gone to other AA groups and tried to get newcomers to leave those meetings and go only to theirs. Anyone AA can attend any meeting but going to a meeting and repeatedly telling newcomers there to leave is pretty bad behavior in AA. They tried to take over Intergroup in NYC. They got a lockhold on speakers at the big Bill W dinner dance meeting for a few years. They've backed off lately in NYC because they were getting a bad rep but they are aggressive as cults can be. The AG has about 7 meetings a week in various locations. They also give AA an overall bad rep. Many of the abusive sponsorship stuff discussed here is done in those groups. Are you a member of either? Also they are creating groups in other big cities. I understand there is one in Chicago now. Cults within organizations should always be called out and resisted.

And R212 as I said I have a group. I usually go once a week but sometimes I skip a few weeks. Started going to that particular group over 25 years. I fit in relatively well. Maybe you should take your own inventory.

Yes, there are bad people everywhere. This shouldn’t surprise anyone.

The problem in this thread are that people are generalizing about all of AA based on their experiences with these two groups. And there is that one person, at least, posting here who is simply flat out lying as she does in every single thread about AA; and then she creates posts agreeing with herself, so it’s difficult to know how may there really are here.

The topic here is “AA members are generally...”, not “I had a bad experience with 2 of the 60,143 AA groups, and I hear there might be a 3d”. Let’s not conflate the two topics.

Controlling much, R215? DL threads, and conversations ("shares" in 12 step lingo) rarely stay on a prescribed topic. That big loose uncontrollable flow of non-cult interaction!

It is looking more and more like OP got it right.

I have no idea what your point is, R216. I do know that this thread is filled with passive aggressive poo shoes comments that are completely dishonest, simply because she’s angry at AA. She then posts other comments to agree with herself, and supports her accusations by citing 2 out 60,143 groups.

[italic] “I guess I was too naive, too giving, but I was deceived. I know some people do better being manipulated and monitored, being told how to dress, where to live, what career to have, but I had to go my own way.” [/italic]

R218, nice manufactured quote. Or is it supposed to be funny?

AA members love to talk and bitch. The only time they shut the fuck up is during a cigarette break. And even then they bitch and bitch about stupid shit. And they all reek of tobacco and coffee. They're more interesting after a few drinks. Too bad they can't stop after 3 or 4. AA should teach moderation, not total abstinence. Beer, wine and liquor are a treat. It would be horrible to go through life without having a few drinks with friends every now and then.

^^^Some people aren't wired to be able to have just one or two drinks.

The only people worse than Poo Shoes are people who see Poo Shoes everywhere!

[italics] “I wanted to fit in. I didn’t know any better. When my sponsor suggested I murder his mother, I was afraid if I didn’t, I wouldn’t be able to get another sponsor. So, I moved to Milwaukee. I took a minimum wage job at a Quiznos making gyros, though I have 4 doctorates and ran Google during its best years. (But only for 18 months, I should add.) my sponsor’s mother came in on Monday’s. I was a fool, I admit it, but I was young. Young, and beautiful. But so naive! Finally, I cornered the mother in the bathroom. There was poo everywhere, but I didn’t care! I didn’t! I told her everything. I confessed. I said, I could go through with it, I had to be me!” [/italic]

tbc...see my gofundme page for the schkond inschallment titled “I returned to the Pashific Group wearing the Mother’s jewels. It was a prearranged shignal to my schponschor...”

AA members can't hold their liquor.

AA, as with anything is for those it works for.

But to deny its proselytizing component or exclusionary stance is a lie. I know those who were SHUNNED by AA members for not supporting their "religion" as THE way to go.

ANYTHING that states ultimates can be dangerous if it stops the need to explore further answers.

As a beginning step? okay. But as a forever return engagement-??

Yikes

"AA sprang from The Oxford Group, a non-denominational movement modeled after first-century Christianity.[24] Some members founded the Group to help in maintaining sobriety. "Grouper" Ebby Thacher was Wilson's former drinking buddy who approached Wilson saying that he had "got religion", was sober, and that Wilson could do the same if he set aside objections to religion and instead formed a personal idea of God, "another power" or "higher power"

R223, I heard that share on a AA speaker type. It's true and the speaker thanked Clancy I for her sobriety.

Reading all this tedious shit makes me want to get shit-faced.

I don't understand people that deny AA's religious or cultish nature. "Take what works for you" is exactly what gay or liberal Christians say about the Bible. I'm happy that it works for some of you. I wish it wasn't seen as the only answer.

R288, it has been said repeatedly in this thread that alternatives include other programs and/or therapy. Not sure if "only answer" indicates black and white thinking or if you didn't read through. Are you still drinking?

This is the kind of misreading that makes discussion difficult.

R228 did not say that AA was the "only answer" as R229 seems to think. Rather he complains that it is seen as the only answer (which implies that R228 knows that there are other ones).

AA members...stop driving drunk. We don't want to die because of you. That's really all we care about. Otherwise, stick to boring each other at your meetings in those dark church basements. We really don't give a shit about the details of your lives. Just stop killing us please.

r197- Yes- they push to see how far they can control you. Your experience is not unique . I know someone who was asked to give up their apt in a posh rent controlled area for a sober living in Harlem.

[quote] R228. I don't understand people that deny AA's religious or cultish nature. "Take what works for you" is exactly what gay or liberal Christians say about the Bible. ... I wish it wasn't seen as the only answer.

AA is a spirtual program. It is not associated with any religion. There are plenty of other groups and options within AA, but I can’t imagine anyone claiming that it was the only answer.

R233, the religious nature of the program is written into the steps--"higher power," "god as we understand him."

It may not be aligned with any specific organized religion, but it does ask members to adopt some sort of religion. It it were truly spiritual but not religious, it would not mention higher powers or gods.

"Reading all this tedious shit makes me want to get shit-faced."

LMAO Like the meetings are not tedious and boring with the same damm stories. If you get loaded, it's on you son. Please don't use this thread as an excuse.

The phrase "spiritual but not religious " is meaningless. The ideas are the same. A distinction without a difference.

[quote] R232: [R197]- Yes- they push to see how far they can control you. Your experience is not unique . I know someone who was asked to give up their apt in a posh rent controlled area for a sober living in Harlem

... and yet there’s something you’re not telling us. Might Miss Posh in the rent controlled apartment actually be in dire need of a sober living situation?

... no one is “pushing” anything in order to “control” anyone.

ONCE AGAIN--AA BEGAN WITH RELIGION AND IS A RELIGION!!

As with facing ones addictions, can we stop this shit now and face the truth of AA ITSELF as fuckin STEEPED in religion??!!

"AA sprang from The Oxford Group, a non-denominational movement modeled after first-century Christianity."

Grouper" Ebby Thacher was Wilson's former drinking buddy who approached Wilson saying that he had "got religion", was sober, and that Wilson could do the same if he set aside objections to religion and instead formed a personal idea of God, "another power" or "higher power".

AND SO THEIR RELIGION WAS BORN IN 12 NEAT THOU SHALT NOTS!

R232, psychopaths are drawn to the vulnerable and enjoy manipulating and controlling behavior. Those individuals are just other people at meetings. There are plenty of other meetings or one can simply walk away. Psychopaths are drawn to law enforcement, law, politics and teaching. AA is just another venue. Damaged strangers should always be kept at arm's length, in all areas of life.

You rock r239!!!

AA members are generally stingy.

Well AA meetings serve bad cheap coffee, R241..

and dont get me wrong, lets not go after AA

But dont you dare come after me for not believing

R242 - It's horrible. And they never give you enough!

AA members are generally thinking about fucking other AA members.

I once went to an ACoA meeting that had an insane predatory vibe. I later was told it was where the 13th Step originated. You couldn't tell. They were like wolves circling one young woman, who was also new. There are other meetings, so I bounced.

Putting damaged strangers in a position of power over yourself isn't wise. Take what you like and LEAVE THE REST clearly isn't internalized by some posters. Projecting that a sponsor is the wise, safe, loving family that you never had is more not taking responsibility. They are a stranger in a public space. People can't progress without dropping the need to play victim. It brings all the predators to the yard...'quell surprise! Cut down on chaos and walk away from people who encourage it. Fool me once, and all that...

I wonder how the Sex Anonymous branch of 12 steps is?

Anyone had experience?

Same or WORSE??

I never had experience with anyone I know but I heard that its worse on all fronts; proselytizing and predatory

OP, sexual predators are so common they merit a shout out.

Other attempts to play with people are no different. The proper response is to dismiss and distance not to obey or ruminate.

It's no different than any other group of humans, and AA, Al-Anon, Al-Ateen, ACoA, NA, OA, SIA, etc have helped tens of millions of people.

Sexual Compulsives Anonymous is the gay dominated 12 step program although open to all. I hear it's considered not strict enough by other 12 step programs, big on fellowship, parties, plays. Low on the steps.

R236 - It is interesting AA has created a loop hole for people who aren't religious and don't believe in a god. But clearly in their literature the preferred higher power is a god. But I think the underlying premise is sound. If you are an alcoholic who is not in recovery you aren't of sound mind. I'm not saying you aren't functioning but clearly if you can't control your drinking and are still drinking there is something wrong. AA has you place your trust somewhere else. Then develop a plan based upon that. That sounds like therapy to me. Not necessarily religious or spiritual.

[quote]R206 I've been sober in AA since 1985. It was much looser back in the day, at least on the East Coast...I'm glad I entered in the loosey goosey period. The cults would have driven me away. I definitely take what I want and leave the rest...I go to about one meeting to remind myself that I shouldn't pick up a drink or joint and because I still enjoy the "fellowship" aspect. Some members are crazy and I avoid them.

This is my story, too.

A phrase you hear in the rooms of AA is "some are sicker than others" and you notice that on Day 1. It is a cross section of society; there's outgoing people, shy people, rich people poor people, gay people, straight people, religious people, atheist + agnostic people. Of course there will be rude people, and criminals, and controlling people....like everywhere.

Hopefully when people go into any group they aren't completely niave.

[quote]R250 It is interesting AA has created a loop hole for people who aren't religious and don't believe in a god. But clearly in their literature the preferred higher power is a god.

Mmmmmm. There's a lot of contradictions in the literature on that subject. There's plenty of sharing at meetings about NOT believing in a god, or even a higher power, though. So that somewhat balances it out.

It's a subject that, like everything, can change and evolve through out someone's long term sobriety. I've believed in a vague notion of a god at times, then considered "god" to be Good Orderly Direction, then thought of the program of AA as being something "bigger than myself"...and then finally settling back where I started, as Agnostic. I'm not convinced there AREN'T gods, but I've never seen evidence of them, either. So, I don't believe.

Oh well. It hasn't stopped me from staying sober.

There are AA meetings that cater to atheists. I’m not sure if cater is the right word, but no matter. Besides, you arent required to register with your birth certificate.

They say you can be atheist, but again, if you read the book it's all about God. Good Orderly Direction made me laugh, though.

[quote]They say you can be atheist, but again, if you read the book it's all about God.

We also have [italic] In God We Trust [/italic] printed on our currency, which changes hands daily..

It doesn't mean we do.

AA members are generally messy drunks.

Define messy drunk? Out of curiosity .

R257 - Slurred speech, and they talk loud and pound on the bar. They forget to tip. And when they go pee they miss the urinal and piss all over the floor.

LOL Yet, true serious drinkers can hold their liquor. I truly believe that AA peeps can not.

[quote] R259: LOL Yet, true serious drinkers can hold their liquor. I truly believe that AA peeps can not.

What the heck does it mean to be a ”serious drinker”? Do they read Proust or “Looking for Mr. Goodbar” while sitting at the local bar?

I can’t see any difference between ”serious drinker” and alcoholic, other than a dose of denial.

Uh, I think that is all drunks?

but R255-your dollar bill doesnt ask you to reaffirm you give over to its higher power as your #2 step,does it?

And Happy New year to those struggling

R262 - actually it does. "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE." The value of the dollar bill isn't based upon anything tangible - like gold. It's based upon faith in the US government. That's a call to higher power.

AA members are generally the life of the party.

AA members have the benefit of not remembering most of the vile things they've done to others, but those on the receiving end still have to live with the pain and consequences.

AA members are consumed with Narcissism.

Especially the ones coming out of the entertainment industry.

I went through quite a rough patch, post breakup which was ruined by alcohol, and spent about two months in AA - gay meetings - throughout Los Angeles. What a trip. My biggest takeaway is they all felt so cliquey that it was almost unbearable. Huge personalities. What I did like is hearing people’s stories and relating... although I was no good at speaking/too shy. I knew I was probably more depressed than an addict and ultimately couldn’t put myself 100% into the program.

Sounds like you had the inner strength to find your power outside of a group R268.

Good for you!

Since R246 mentioned "Thirteenth stepping" I'm curious how the sponsor issue is handled in gay groups? The standard is a sponsor and sponsee should be the same sex to avoid entanglements but what about those attracted to the same sex?

r270-it's rampant! GAY AA is predatory.

Thanks for the feedback R271. Many who are new to recovery are vulnerable. I've seen this occur in straight groups where people will still sponsor those of the opposite sex and the next thing you know everybody has relapsed and drama is added to the meetings.

Everybody complains about 13th Stepping and how horrible and exploitative it is.

I WISH someone in Gay AA would 13th Step me. I'm not cute enough and people look right through me, which feels worse than being preyed on.

I've seen you R273--

And you are WAY cuter than you think!

Gay men should get some butch duke to sponsor them. I bet she'll put you thru the steps!

Butch dyke not duke.

I’d like a butch Duke!

[quote]The only people worse than Poo Shoes are people who see Poo Shoes everywhere!

No, I think the person (you) who continually complains about people identifying Poo Shoes are second worse than Poo herself.

Oh! All this time I thought we were talking about AARP members!

Alcoholics Anonymous offers nothing more than a group of (hopefully) sober new friends and acquaintances. If you find a group of people you can stand, it's a good (free) way to get out of the house and stay away from boozing and drugging.

HOWEVER: I was shocked to see how many people were going to meetings to buy drugs, meet up with dealers, and pick up sexual partners. The gossip, cliques, and games played on people became intolerable for me, and life got a lot better once I left for good. It's been almost twenty years without a drink and I miss no one. I feel very fortunate to not have other AA'ers drain me of my energy and concern and get nothing back in return.

I know that many of you are struggling with addiction right now and I suggest that AA is a fine temporary adjustment to sobriety, but I cannot recommend it long term. Again, I will have twenty years this year and was a very bad alcoholic, so the lie that 'people die once they stop going to meetings' is a terrible slur on those of us who have more will and stamina.

I will pray for any and all of you who are struggling with addiction now.

If you want to leave a false or real name, or even a number for me to reference you with, please post those in this thread and I will pray for you every night.

In Jesus' name, may peace come to your life.

African Americans or those in Alcoholics Anonymous ?

[quote] R280 Alcoholics Anonymous offers nothing more than a group of (hopefully) sober new friends and acquaintances.

Who save your life. That's all.

To each his own. JUST DONT PROSELYTIZE! These people can get freaky that way.

I agree that there are some control freak sponsors who require sacrifices that aren't in a person's best interest. I think some of it comes from wanting people to suffer like they believe they suffered or somehow the AA lesson won't be learned.

That only works at the bottom rung when all has been lost.

r284- no, it's about control and sadism.

[R142] I have not been sober since leaving A.A. But I am not in the gutter either -- which is what they said would happen to me if I drank, LOL.

Listen, I got sober at around age 27. I retrospect, I drank like a typical college guy. I was searching for some direction and found it in A.A. And, like I said in R141, I don't regret it at all. My life was just fine sober ... and still is not sober.

I would like to say that I DO KNOW a few people who drink and .... it's chaos. Next thing you know, they are passed out in their car at an intersection, with the police knocking on their window. I never drank like that. People who do drink like that do need some help, and A.A. can be good for that.

As for not having friends outside of A.A. ..... When I was in it, I was so busy going to meetings, sponsoring people, and doing service work that I really didn't have TIME for anything (or anyone) else. Also (and this is completely honest!!): I looked down on people who drank or used drugs. It made me feel better about being sober, and it made me feel safer, because I was never tempted. A.A. and my sponsers encouraged that attitude, too, I believe.

Anyway, my life may not be perfect now .... and A.A. definitely gave me some tools to grow up and not be such a dick .... but I feel less crazy NOT going to meetings and dealing with the "god" thing.

And of course the 13 steppers. They are very prevalent where I live in Kansas City.

r286, I stopped going to meetings without starting to drink again. It is possible.

For the AA members, I still struggle with the sponsor thing. Checking in with someone every day, saying work is fine, didn't drink today, got mad at someone who cut me off in traffic, etc. I've had a few sponsors fire me. I don't know why I'm not able to grasp this whole sponsor thing!!?? I have a friend who runs literally everything by her sponsor first. It works for her, great.

I still attend meetings, read the books, try to live as decent, honest person. But I get the side-eye from some ppl who know I currently don't have a sponsor. I guess in their eyes I'm half-assing the program.

[quote]R289 I get the side-eye from some ppl who know I currently don't have a sponsor. I guess in their eyes I'm half-assing the program.

They can mind their own g-damn business. You just say you're "between sponsors." And if you do find one you like, you don't have to call the every day. I'd think once a week is fine. And you talk about things that specifically have to do with your sobriety....good or bad. Maybe if you start sponsoring someone yourself, you talk about that.

R289, I avoided getting a sponsor for a long time. I finally did and it simply did not work for me. I don't want to go into it, but it started to become a controlling situation and a little sadistic. He was a member of the Atlantic group. I got sober and have been sober for 4 years without a sponsor. I am not making a case for or against anything. What REALLY helped was 2 friends I met in the meetings who had a few years and understood the meaning of the program and lived it. The program is only a GUIDE! as the literature says.

At a meeting you don't really have to do anything except show up,

My first sponsor said "The first 3 steps will keep you sober, and the other ones will determine the quality of that sobriety."

MEANING (in a very round-about-way), you stay sober, and then you grow in other areas as time goes by. It's the whole [italic]Progress, Not Perfection[/italic] angle. Maybe someone never really connects with a super solid spornsorship relationship...but at the same time they go to meetings and share honestly, are doing service (even if it's just helping to put chairs away), and you're listening to members who need someone to talk to afterwards. So, good! Maybe next year will be the year you work closely with a sponsor. And maybe that year, you won't be so comfortable sharing as much. It all revolves and changes depending on what's going on in your life.

But as long as you're not drinking, that's really the main thing. Everything else is icing on the cake. (IMO)

My cousin was in AA and told me her sponsor turned into a stalker. Following her after work - they worked in the same bldg - and showing up at her house un-invited. He would leave notes on her desk at work about being tempted to slide and go with him to a meeting. He was married and she called his wife who professed shock, then was just as bad as he was saying she should just let him take her to a meeting if she felt the need. She lied and told the woman 'I told him it was OVER!' and hung up on her. The guy never bothered her again and he stopped going to the meeting at the place they'd gone together.

Beware of crackheads and herion heads. They go there to avoid drink which leads to main addiction. Crackheads are hopeless.

R293 Sounds fake. Why would a woman have a male sponsor?

The heavily gay populated groups are horribly cliiquish. It’s like high school meets recovery. Don’t expect sponsorship unless you are hot/possibly doable, esp. In SA. Generally speaking mixed groups are healthier environments.

[quote]R242 Well AA meetings serve bad cheap coffee,

We serve Starbucks at mine...we grind it right there.

But really, some of these complaints are so stupid...if you don't like the coffee, bring a bag of the brand you like and donate it to the meeting. Everyone will love you! Or bring your own cup of coffee. If you don't like saying the Lord's Prayer when it closes (which is an uncommon closing, anyway), share about it, go to the monthy business meeting, and say that since, as per the preamble, "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution", you find a quote from the Bible to be innappropriate. If that doesn't fly, FIND ANOTHER MEETING. Or start your own. (I know...mind blowing.)

Are these whiners all completely helpless?? Jeepers.

Been there, done that, R297. AA luvs its Our Father. Almost every group uses it to end every meeting and if you suggest they do not, you will hear that it is nondenominational and millions got sober with it and you do not have enough years to have any valid opinion, etc.

In AA, everything is about power and control.

[quote]R298 Been there, done that, AA luvs its Our Father. Almost every group uses it to end every meeting and if you suggest they do not, you will hear that it is nondenominational and millions got sober with it and you do not have enough years to have any valid opinion, etc.

Well, after this topic was raised in that other thread ("Clean & Sober"?) about a month ago, I posted I was going to bring that up at a meeting I go to that used the Lord's Prayer to close. After I shared about it, they changed the format so now it's the Serenity Prayer.

Maybe you're just inept at fascilitating things?

Just started going back to meetings as I relapsed a few years ago after several years sober. I get that AA is not perfect and that the people there are far from perfect either, but meetings are the only thing that has ever helped me abstain. I've been to NA, AA *and* GA and when I attended regularly I was able to stop. When I stopped going to meetings I always used again. I think the steps are a rough guideline to helping people find out underlying issues/triggers involved in using. The meetings are full of people who are self described drunks.

AA is about helping people stop and continue to not drink. Many (I'd say most) of the people there have mental/emotional issues that they haven't addressed and getting sober makes it possible for them to work on them. Everyone is different and has their own problems/circumstances but the commonality is that we ALL abuse substances, and this has made our lives a mess and that we need to stop. That's it -- stopping and staying stopped; learning tools to cope with life sober, discovering what triggers using ... all of this is directly tied to drinking/using. Most people would do well with individual counseling to work on their personal issues to further help themselves.

12 step groups are people with a common problem -- using uncontrollably, to help each other. That's it. Some of you are looking at other individuals in the rooms and using them as an excuse to trash the entire program and that's not right. Like it was said earlier, take what you need from the meetings and discard the rest. And for crying out loud, find a good counselor to work on your underlying issues and stop blaming AA for not being everything you need. It's only there to help you stop drinking; that's it.

If I got nothing else out of AA than it stopped my frequent hangovers and splitting headaches, it would be enough for me.

I'm glad I have a clearer head and stabler body now....amongst a hundred other things.

AA isn't going to work for everyone. Nothing works for everyone. I'm glad it worked for me.

[quote]AA is based on Christian principles.

Not the Catholics, obviously, if they still use communion wine.

[quote]AA is based on Christian principals

Which ones? Many Christian principals (such as the 10 Commandments) are universal amongst many faiths, and were in fact recycled and appropriated from previously existing ones.

[R206]: I heartily agree. [R68] here.

I am so grateful I got sober whenI did. (Actually, I officially came out of the closet and got struck sober on the same night, New Year’s Eve 1985. Therein lies a tale...)

Back then, some of the founders were still alive. I saw Lois in person at the Bill W. Dinner in 1986, and I had a few conversations with Dr. Paul (writer of the notorious, “Acceptance is the answer, etc.”). I used to think that getting sober back then was similar to becoming a Christian in Rome in about 50 A.D.; some of the founders were still alive, and there was a general zeal to recovery.

In years since, though I was slow to realize it, I gradually came to see many AA meetings become inundated with meth addicts, the mentally ill, and fundamentalist Christians. Sadly, I’ve seen many mentally ill people get sober, then expect that to cure their mental illness, and, when it doesn’t, they often disappear. Often the same happened with the meth addicts, many of whom would often talk about how much they missed that drug.

The Christian influence has become the most pervasive, perhaps because there is more public support outside of AA. (I still wouldn’t be surprised if in, say, another 500 years or so, AA will actually be an organized religion. Already, you can see portraits of Saint Bill and Holy Bob on meeting room walls, and pious AA’er’s make frequent pilgrimages to AA’s sacred sites, in Akron and Bill’s grave in New Hampshire.)

I was lucky. I realized that AA gave me the gift of sobriety, but I was the one who had to maintain it, which meant a lot of additional work on myself as well. I cannot pray away an abusive childhood. And the only responsibility I can take for it is to let go of that dysfunctional familiarity in adulthood. I have done this with workshops and one-on-one therapy. And I still do.

When it comes to outside help, of any sort, I always encourage people to read the Big Book of AA, page 133, second paragraph up from the bottom (It’s the only Big Book page I can cite LOL):

“But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and in following his case afterward.”

So, AA is only a tool to recover oneself. But many people persist in claiming they can do it all on their own, with no help from anyone. And maybe they can; I don’t know. All I can honestly is that AA continues to work for me.

[quote]The three of them clearly thought the place beneath them.

Very common in gay meetings that aren't segregated into gay and lesbian meetings. Three of my sponsors (over 30+ years) have been women.

[quote]Why would a woman have a male sponsor?

Very common in gay meetings that aren't segregated into gay and lesbian meetings. Three of my sponsors (over 30+ years) have been women.

AA people replace their addictions for drugs, alcohol and sex with an addiction to all things AA.

[quote]The heavily gay populated groups are horribly cliquish. It’s like high school meets recovery.

I was very "high school meets recovery" my second year. My best friend and I used to plan parties so we could not invite certain people to them. I know for a fact I made someone from out-of-town's first year in our gay groups absolutely miserable. I have a Bush-like talent for giving people nicknames.

[quote]Don’t expect sponsorship unless you are hot/possibly doable, esp. In SA.

I have never fucked a sponsor or a sponsee. Not to say I didn't want to, once in each direction, but it didn't happen.

SA = South America? Sex Anonymous?

There's a direct connection between sugar and the urge for alcohol. Why do they serve powdered doughnuts and coffee with sugar at the meetings?

[quote]But really, some of these complaints are so stupid...if you don't like the coffee, bring a bag of the brand you like and donate it to the meeting. Everyone will love you!

I tried. No matter how good the coffee you bring, it gets ruined when you make it in those big AA coffee pots. I went back to Folgers after one bag of "good" coffee. I did introduce decaf, though, as most of our meetings were at 8:30 PM. That stuck. A friend tried to introduce Vanilla Swiss Raspberry and Pecan Blast coffees. Those failed miserably, thank God.

[quote]There's a direct connection between sugar and the urge for alcohol. Why do they serve powdered doughnuts and coffee with sugar at the meetings?

Cookies were the thing where I got sober. Don't think I ever ate an AA donut until Dunkin opened a kosher branch near the JCC where my home group met (prior to which there had been no sugar).

Eating sugar is an AA article of faith. See the book "Living Sober," which some refer to as "Eating Sugar."

[quote]R310 No matter how good the coffee you bring, it gets ruined when you make it in those big AA coffee pots.

I was told that the secret to making coffee in those was to really scour them after use (running hot water through the spouts etc), and thoroughly drying them.

Will someone tell me exactly what is it about being in a group helps one deal with such personal problems??

What about sharing your addiction with others sharing that addiction helps you break that addiction?

I ask specifically in regards to sex addiction aa groups.

No judgment, but it seems more like finding comfort sharing with others who share that story rather than finding the real REASON for and a way OUT of that dialogue,leading to an endless cycle of those ongoing meetings

And some vague "serenity prayer" and talking about allowing some "higher power" to help you in what has become "unmanageable" seems like just another level of powerlessness leading to ANOTHER addiction on something outside one self. I mean, wasnt that what the drug was: something outside oneself?

This is not meant as an attack for I am seriously asking.

It just seems like a lot of talking and socializing and not enough time studying and researching the nature of the addiction and addictions themselves.

[quote] R30g Why would a woman have a male sponsor? / Very common in gay meetings that aren't segregated into gay and lesbian meetings. Three of my sponsors (over 30+ years) have been women.

What I was reacting to was the particular scenario in r293. And I was assuming the cousin was straight, which, looking back, wasn't stated. But since the supposed sponsor is a heterosexual married man, it still seems off to me that he would have a female (single or married, gay or straight) as a sponsee. For exactly the reason that took place - the wife came to believe the two had had an affair.

I guess it could happen. I've never encountered it.

[quote]R313 I ask specifically in regards to sex addiction aa groups.

Maybe you are talking about SLAA, which stands for Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. It's not associated with AA. I think they use the model of the 12 Steps to address a different issue.

There's probably a FAQ section at their website.

anyway, the question remains for ANY AA group

Could someone in AA answer this for me at R313??

Thanks.

I disagree, R298. People have control and power over you only if you let them. There are many in AA who want to play this game (it is an alcoholic's game, of course) but the majority do not.

R315 It's already been discussed in the thread, pretty much. Different people have different experiences, likes, dislikes and needs.

It sounds like you already have an opinion on it. I doubt anyone's invested in changing your mind.

In my gay neighborhood AA is a cult of white privileged men!

I knew these two guys who met at an SLAA meeting, went home and fucked a few times, then bought an apartment together. Fortunately, it was a 2-BR, because one of the guys subsequently moved another SLAA member in as his NEW boyfriend, and the original boyfriend was relegated to the second bedroom.

Now that's a program that WORKS.

love it R320

And no, R380 no one has talked about the dynamics of group salvation as opposed to a more solitary redemption.

And I could give a fuck about anyones investment or not in "changing my mind"

All I want is their own explanation FOR THEMSELVES so I can understand THEM!

Got it? And yes, I have my own understanding but not about the need for group meetings about personal issues.

Now have YOU anything to offer in that vein?

And no, [R318] no one has talked about the dynamics of group salvation as opposed to a more solitary redemption.

And I could give a fuck about anyones investment or not in "changing my mind"

All I want is their own explanation FOR THEMSELVES so I can understand THEM!

Got it? And yes, I have my own understanding but not about the need for group meetings about personal issues.

Now have YOU anything to offer in that vein?

yes, R321 was meant for R318

[quote]R322 Now have YOU anything to offer in that vein?

I'm not a member of [italic]Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous,[/italic] so I can't tell you why that program would or would not work for anyone. I can't speak for people who attend those meetings, or assume it works (if it does) for all of them in the same way.

Maybe you need a new thread that's just about that, since you posted "I ask specifically in regards to sex addiction groups."

What is an SLAA member? Is it big?

Can someone identify the acronym people and there motives? I grew up in New York and we never really used them. Is there a dictionary?

R325 see R315

No R324, I'm still curious about the group dynamic as a curative agent in ANY situation; Alcohol or sex as they BOTH seek group support with PERSONAL issues. And the confessional aspect of telling ones story to a group of so many. Therapy I get. This I dont. So back to my question at R313 if you or anyone who uses these groups can answer from personal experience. I wish someone could articulate how being with others who share ones addiction helps one navigate through it. I might as well be asking Weight Watchers which I never understood either fully.

[quote]R327 I'm still curious about the group dynamic

I think you should go to the source, rather than a place like DL where you can't even see anyone's face.

In meeting schedules (at least for AA) the meetings marked OPEN are open to the public. You could go observe, and take the opportunity to ask the attendees about why, or if, it works for them.

R328, I dont need to see faces. DL is a GREAT place for people to express. At least I have found it to be so.Are YOU in AA? Can you explain the group dynamics part? If you are, I'd imagine I dont need to see your face when you can use words. Otherwise the written word would be reserved for what 'faces' cant express. And its not.

R329 If you go to an open AA meeting, then you'll know the person you're speaking with is, in fact, a member of AA (or SLAA, or Weight Watchers, or whatever.) Here, you won't really know. You'll just be doing half-assed research and reaching conclusions based on reports you can't trust. And it sounds like the answer's very important to you. So the best I can do is encourage you to research it seriously by putting in the actual footwork.

R330 -I KNOW of actual AA people and have done the footwork. I am asking anyone here on Datalounge for THEIR answers because its very touchy with people currently in the program. Here there are those who have tried it and either left or graduated OR are willing to talk. It is to them I ask this question What do you think this site is for? Otherwise everyone would have to do their own 'footwork' for EVERY topic instead of the great opportunity this site offers.

Please, if you cant or wont answer this question STOP DIRECTING ME ELSEWHERE!

[quote]I wish someone could articulate how being with others who share ones addiction helps one navigate through it.

It meant a whole new set of friends for me, ones with whom I shared the value of not drinking or drugging. It was such a better set of people to hang around with than my then-current set of friends, one of whom even joined me in AA, and was sober until he died. Common goals. What more do I need to say? Ask more questions to get more, and better, answers.

I love AA. I rely on it. Great sense of community and belonging for me.

okay R332, R313 here with a better question:

besides shared values of NOT drinking and doing drugs, have you studied in as disciplined and regular a way as are those meetings the spiritual reasons why people DO drink or do drugs?

And have you since found friends OUTSIDE the group who were as good a group to hang out with as those sharing your addiction and struggle?

Otherwise it sounds a bit cultist and exclusionary regarding outsiders; almost like a religion intolerant of outsiders or at least preferring one's own .

When I asked an AA member if the group discussed what was at the core of addiction, he said vehemently and rather angrily -

"thats not what the group is for"

Is that true? Is there research required of the individual outside of what happens in the group as part of the groups working plan?

Otherwise it seems that the group serves as a sense of shared mission to STOP a behavior through group cohesion and not SOLVE it through solitary study.

And that was MY issue-not that it should be yours. I just wanted to know

Fellowship is key, R334. "Solving through solitary study" is not the aim of the meeting.

thank you R335--I get it now.

r334, I quickly came to accept that understanding addiction isn't how to stop addiction. I frequently heard some version of "interesting, perhaps, but irrelevant to recovery." And frankly, I wasn't that interested. I knew I had the gene for alcohol addiction through every single one of my father's blood relations. So I didn't drink. I did try drugs, though, which were just becoming popular in my teen years. And I became as much of an addict as my father's family were alcoholics. Speed and downs were my drugs of choice.

thanks for that R337--

though I might disagree about the power of understanding as the major step to solving, what I do understand is your post. Thats why I love this site.

The word "solving" may be getting in your way. The fellowship offers a one-day-at-time approach to not taking that first drink or drug.

Broader and deeper searches for "understanding" are individual journeys.

I hear many wise words from my sober neighbors. It is a rich experience for me.

Youre the best R339 !

R338, what [bold]do[/bold] you mean, "solving"?

"solving" R341 means that all addictions have supernatural sources.

Man through the centuries has forgotten where these pulls, from sex to substances, come from.

And modern life provides quick fixes with long term consequences such as addictions.

To solve earthly hungers requires a study of these non-human sources.

Its a more laborious and solitary mission than what organizations have to offer.

And unfortunately, with foods,histories and religions being altered, I have found you must go it alone.

For we are addicted first and foremost to lies our world tells us about everything. Solving means searching for the truth once again.

I can see, r342, where twelve-step programs might not be, er, complicated enough for you.

R343 I'm not concerned about ME . I wanted to understand YOU who are in these groups and have found some answers so I'm grateful.

You want the truth?

As a longtime AA member, I can tell you.

You must go back to the original AA literature, by which I mean before the [italic]Big Book[/italic] was published and made accessible to the public in 1939. (These early papers are stored at the Bill Wilson House museum in East Dorset, Vermont, where Bill W. and Dr. Bob, two founding members of the group, first met.) Historically, the benefit of meeting in groups as alcoholics is because only when there are thirteen recovering alcoholics present can the demon dragons inside us emerge to feed on the cookies and donuts traditionally supplied at meetings. Allowing the secret dragons access to these undigested [italic]Sucrose[/italic] properties (which are also present in alcohol) keeps them from sending us "drink signals" for the "demon rum" they crave.

When people leave AA, it's because they did not go to the larger 'blood oath" meetings where this ceremony is evoked.

I hope this helps.

Oh it does R345 !!

I take back what I said about the supernatural

Give me your hoof.

and your first born

All of those people you apologize to are just subject to your unwanted drama again. "Remember that night I got drunk and brought home a trick? I thought you wouldn't be home so soon and you walked in on us? SORRY!"

I was in AA for 14 years but left three years ago. I'm still sober today. I do credit the program and the people in it for helping me get sober, earn the trust of my family back and understand I had to become a more self-aware and spiritual (not religious) person to remain sober.

I left because a rougher, less kind group of alcoholics and addicts as well as those with serious mental health issues started dominating meetings. I was not getting what I needed anymore. In a way, AA is a selfish program, and I didn't believe I was benefitting from it anymore. I'm not saying I will never go back, but at this point in my life I don't feel compelled to do so.

That's just my experience, though.

Every meeting has its own vibe.

AA is a Christian Cult.

that was my first impression R352 because it believes in a higher power that will save those whose addictions have become "unmanageable"

Many OTHER religions require more work and are less presumptive.

"AA sprang from The Oxford Group, a non-denominational movement modeled after first-century Christianity.Some members founded the Group to help in maintaining sobriety. "Grouper" Ebby Thacher was Wilson's former drinking buddy who approached Wilson saying that he had "got religion", was sober, and that Wilson could do the same if he set aside objections to religion and instead formed a personal idea of God, "another power" or "higher power"

I dont like ANYthing or anyone to pray to or have pray for me BUT to each his own.

AA saves millions of lives.

Not the nicest or friendliest group of addicts.

Oh....the recovering meth heads are nicer?

no, just the ones who dont use religious principles to isolate groups of people into safe,insular enclaves.

Recovering meth heads are better sex! LOL

I went to one meeting and decided if this is what it took to get sober, I'd rather do it on my own than to listen to their STORIES.

AA saves lives. If you are in trouble with drugs and alcohol, there are helpful people nearby.

no GROUP saves lives.

AA has saved millions and millions of lives WORLDWIDE. It is one of the greatest forces for good that came out of 20th Century.

In my experience SLAA is more focused on people who are addicted to toxic relationships with dysfunctional people. The majority of that group tends to be women.

SAA tends to be more about sex addiction and primarily men.

There are also meetings for both for women only. Some of them will accept gay men.

Sponsorship in SA is more difficult unless you are physically attractive. Gay groups tend to be very cliquey and manifiest a social dynamic that can be triggering for some addicts.

Many gay AA members are also sex addicts in denial so it’s important to have healthy boundaries in place, especially for newcomers.

AA is a Christian cult!

[quote]R357 no, just the ones who dont use religious principles to isolate groups of people into safe,insular enclaves.

wut?

wut??

They proselytize and segregate like ALL religions do.

And find security in a group that simplifies the greater mysteries of being human.

meth heads?

Well there was Bob, the crusty old timer who shouted at anyone who identified as an addict. But he was counterbalanced by Nan, the lovable frau with food issues who knitted during our gay men's meetings.

That was just life under AA.

I did get to see some celebs though. PSH was at the Perry Street Workshop a couple of times.

Self absorbed and self serving.

and all that would be okay if they werent also damning of those who dont follow their religion to wellness.

Narcissistic!

The problem is at these meetings you never find anyone successful. It's a minor miracle if someone there even has a job and their own place.

It's a CULT!

Do you really get coins?

It helps the people it helps. But it also hurts the people who it hurts.

I think for every person it keeps clean and sober, there is a person it drive to drink or use even more.

Yay! Muriel finally red tagged the self loathing, alcoholic, “femme les” autism obsessed OP! And yes, she’s also a racist (quelle suprise).

[quote]I think for every person it keeps clean and sober, there is a person it drive to drink or use even more.

But those people who left would have stayed drinking, anyway, had they never gone...so...

I’ve never been with AA, but I’ve been a member of AAA for more than forty years.

Too many AA members are raving narcistic addicts

We are the secretary for the Friday night meeting in our neighborhood. There is often scorching hot stuff in the meeting. Thankfully fish are in the minority!

"Yay! Muriel finally red tagged the self loathing, alcoholic, “femme les” autism obsessed OP! And yes, she’s also a racist (quelle suprise)."

You seem like a stalker aspie!

The concept of powerlessness in AA is very detrimental. It gives the drinker an excuse as "I have a disease.. I am powerless" It's a way for the program to control and keep you dependent on the group think AA.

AA has a monopoly over so called recovery programs. They dominate the rehab business ($$) and scoff and will do everything in their power to hinder all other alternatives. Hollywood heavily promotes AA... IT'S A CULT

Of course it is useless, they should be looking for the drug that would prevent neurophysiological mechanism that leads to addiction, talking about it won't help anyone.

R384, while I agree that medicine can help with addictive issues , it is just like AA a bandaid. I truly believe that people abuse booze and drugs due to a hole in their heart and soul. There is a feeling of sadness and anxiety that the substances fill... AA and NA make matters worse with their shame-based program and reinforces the helpless feeling with their "powerless " Bullshit.

AA is a miraculous program that has saved millions of lives worldwide.

AA isn't bad and helps a lot of people, but I know people who are big into AA who seem to believe that anyone who has ever abused alcohol or drank it in excess is or could be an alcoholic, including how a lot of people drink a lot in college, or how sometimes people will binge a few times a year such as during holidays like new year's eve.

Twenty-two alcohol related deaths every week in Scotland. Cuz it's a deadly deadly substance.

r388, they drink like whales . Now call your sponsor about your resentment of most drinkers.

Alcohol is mentioned in only one of the 12 steps. The other eleven are about working on yourself to change your thinking, attitudes and behaviors. I'm not religious, never have been. I acknowledge a higher power. I try every day to be more kind, not judge, and to stay in my own lane. I'm learning how to meditate. I read more, appreciate nature, and act responsibly with money. My drug and alcohol addictions were just the main symptom of my broken mind and spirit.

I'm two and a half years sober. I go to AA meetings because I will usually hear at least one story that is moving and inspiring. I understand its not for everyone and that's okay.

I love going to a 7am meeting on Saturday mornings with a hundred other people that I have something in common with.

[quote]AA has a monopoly over so called recovery programs. They dominate the rehab business ($$)

AA doesn't run any rehabs...I don't think they even advertise.

"I'm two and a half years sober. I go to AA meetings because I will usually hear at least one story that is moving and inspiring. I understand its not for everyone and that's okay.

I love going to a 7am meeting on Saturday mornings with a hundred other people that I have something in common with.

You switched addictions hun . U love being controlled

"a hundred other people"

That is pretty big for an AA meeting. Especially one in the early morning.

Lots of court card r 393 :) BTW, it's a violation of our first Amendment for the courts to force AA attendance as it's a religious program.

[quote] I try every day to be more kind, not judge, and to stay in my own lane.

Is "stay in my own lane" the latest AA cliche? Or did you just get it at cliches.com?

Ha r395 It's up there with "my side of the street is clean "

"The cultish nature of AA, their weird hostility to the idea that people can stop drinking without their program and be happy, has fascinated me for a long time. I've seen it in close friends and relatives. The neurosis that existed before they were addicted is still their after they quit, after they go to AA meetings for 15. AA serves a purpose. I'll grant that. But my experience with it is through friends and relatives, and I can say unequivocally that it has not helped those people overcome their sadness, anger, fear, etc. And, my goodness, you can't tell them that because it makes you a heretic."

R397 makes a good point with that quote. AA/NA do help a lot of people, but I know lots of people who go to AA/NA meetings who think they are "sober" because they do not drink or use another drug they were addicted to, yet these people smoke pot daily, take benzos/opiates, or any other drug they can find. I also have known people who went to AA/NA meetings and instead of taking it seriously, went just to sell drugs, buy drugs or find a dealer, or find people to get drunk with after meetings.

The people who I know who have benefited the most from AA/NA took it seriously, worked with a sponsor, did not socialize or get close with people who they met at meetings or talk or see them socially outside of meetings aside from their sponsor, and they realized that they cannot drink or use other drugs at all now even smoking herb.

I also have known hardcore AA/NA-ers who believe that if someone quits using alcohol or drugs on their own or goes through a period during adolescence or young adulthood such as their 20s or while they are in college drinking and using drugs, that they are just in denial, will relapse and die, and need to keep going to AA/NA meetings.

[quote]I also have known hardcore AA/NA-ers who believe that if someone quits using alcohol or drugs on their own or goes through a period during adolescence or young adulthood such as their 20s or while they are in college drinking and using drugs, that they are just in denial, will relapse and die, and need to keep going to AA/NA meetings.

That's the mindset of the majority of AA/NA members. Tell one that you were able to get sober without using NA/AA and you get labelled as a "dry drunk" or told that you're just kidding yourself and tick tock tick tock tick tock you'll be back on the sauce or the needle or the straw.

I got sober after 20 years of drinking by learning to view alcohol as an entity that I relied on that betrayed me. My life has been such that I've been betrayed by many family members and friends for one reason or another, and when that's happened I cut that person out of my life.

So when I began to view alcohol as an entity that ultimately betrayed me it became very easy to lose my desire to drink. I'm at nearly 1,000 days without a drop of alcohol. I don't crave it and I don't want to drink.

Keep driving, R378! It works when you work it!

[quote] R374: Do you really get coins?

Technically, they are called “badges”.

[quote]Do you really get coins?

Where I have gone to meetings, they are called "chips." They're aluminum; I guess that's why so some say "coins."

R401, actually, there are coins

Incidentally, Rotary has coins, too, signifying something else. Just membership, I think. If you don’t bring your coin to a meeting, I think you have to make a charitable donation.

The SAR also has a coin, if someone shows your theirs, and you don’t have yours on you (called a challenge coin), it means the drinks are on you. The SAR was originally a social/drinking gentleman’s club segregated by lineage. I don’t think that how AA coins work, haha.

They also make coins in bronze. Usually for a year or more. You can get them in silver, gold, and platinum, but that’s not common, obviously.

[quote]Erna

Cunt

AAA membership is a scam. And nobody can read the tiny print in their guides anyway.

[quote]And nobody can read the tiny print in their guides anyway.

DDGTMRTBBTTYS

Are the guys hot at SAA meetings?

Some, r408.

r398- AA Nazi

the. Women nasty competitive cunts to other women

R411, A lot of catty assholes in the program period.

AA is all cliquey, chatty catty two faced queens with no self esteem!

[quote]411 A lot of catty assholes in the program period.

Thank goodness there are none here!

R410, does not understand how reading comprehension works.

AA/NA work for people, but the person has to actually want to get sober and change, and cut ties with people who they once used drugs/alcohol with. Also the majority of people stop using drugs and alcohol on their own without AA/NA, or going to rehab/detox.

[quote] “I know some people who think any range of ridiculous things and do any manner of odd things.”

This is how most of the above comments read to me. Either that, or, “I know some troubled people who are troubled with troubles. They are called ‘Humans’. “

The worst is the quote from Psychiatry Today, where the author’s credentials are completely lacking. Was he an inmate from a zoo somewhere? He certainly wasn’t writing like someone who had much experience with humanity.

I was not aware that this a spiritual self help program that is sometimes mandated by the courts to attend.

411 A lot of catty assholes in the program period. Thank goodness there are none here!

r418 is a retard

You know you are, r418, but what are you?

R417, that happens to people in highschool and college, or who are teenagers or into drinking underage, or to adults who who get caught with small amounts of drugs like a small about of weed, and put on probation, or they get a DUI and then have to go to AA/NA meetings or have their license taken away.

It never happened to me but I knew people in highschool and college who had this happen to them since they got caught drinking or smoking herb.

Yes, and not only can courts and your insurance mandate you to AA rehabs/ meetings, the level of sex offender/predators in AA is astonishing.

I have very mixed feelings about AA.

AA don't go for boooooooze an' dope.

There are also a lot drug dealers R421. I know people who went to AA/NA to get sober or get help, and they wound up meeting people who they would buy drugs from and got addicted to those drugs.

My impression is that they all smoke cigarettes—they’ll trade one vice for another one that may actually be harder to quit. And 12-Step is too tied to religiosity. Like the Cheech and Chong hippy who said that before, he was all fucked up on drugs—now he’s all fucked up on the Lord.

[quote]My impression is that they all smoke cigarettes—they’ll trade one vice for another one that may actually be harder to quit.

99% of smoking alcoholics were smokers before they got to AA. Secondary addictions include sugar, sex, the gym, and shopping, but smoking is generally pre-established.

I tried quitting smoking, seemingly dozens of times, and couldn’t do it, until I used the AA approach to stop, and was able to do it the first try.

The cigarettes are a thing of the past. When I started AA in 1999 everyone smoked, but by 2010 it was pretty rare.

AA members seem like a glum lot

R425 It's a stereotype, but AA/NA members also tend to drink a lot of coffee, and consume sugar or sweets. In the AA/NA handbook they talk about at first substituting a craving for alcohol or any drugs you are addicted to, with a sweet or dessert.

AA only has a 5 to 10% success rate. When I was young and drinking heavily, people I knew who were in AA kept telling me I was an alcoholic and needed AA. I went to a couple of meetings but I am an atheist and had problems with the religious aspect of it. I kept drinking for a while after that but when I decided to stop drinking I just stopped drinking without any problems at all and only drank very occasionally in social situations. Now I have asthma and drinking depresses my breathing so I haven't had anything to drink for about 8 or 9 years. So much for being an alcoholic. People in AA think if you drink any amount at all you are an alcoholic.

R431, I also was like that when I was a teenager, in college, and in my 20s. I drank a lot for a period of time in college and after graduating with friends in our 20s, and I had someone say I am an alcoholic but I also quit on my own. I did not go to AA/NA meetings since at the time I was still sometimes smoking herb, tripping on LSD or mushrooms at times, and was not going to quit drinking completely in college or my 20s. I am not atheist but going to AA/NA meetings did seem pointless for me since I was going to at the time keep using drugs. I eventually did quit drinking alcohol and using all drugs before turning 30, since low, standard measured amounts of alcohol such as 1-2 drinks consumed in social situations, or a glass of red wine with a meal would make me extremely sleepy, which did not happen before, and I figured I had drank enough in my 20s. Also hangovers suck, and spending lots of time in bars gets boring, herb was cool in HS and college but I don't want to spend decades or most of my life stoned, since I know people who are in their mid 50s or 60s who did this and they are extremely burnt out and have memory issues from it. Tripping on mushrooms and LSD was cool but again I have known people who are in their 50s or older and still tripping and they are extremely burnt out and crazy in a lot of ways.

That was me too R432. When I was in college and in my 20's I did a lot of hard partying and by the time I was in my late 20's I was sick of partying and was getting more serious about life and I basically grew up.

I am back to eating weed now but I am 68 and retired and I do it because it seems to be the only way I can get to sleep. I have horrible insomnia.

R431, I can’t say I believe that statistic on success rate.

In any event, it’s irrelevant. If [italic] any [/italic] people get sober through AA, and millions do, it’s a Godsend for them. A problem I have with people pointing out how “awful” AA can be, is that it can add to the hopelessness active alcoholics feel, and the futility they often think about an attempt to quit drinking. They may think there is no help for them at all, when that’s just not true. AA can be helpful to many, many people, and they can’t know that until and unless they try it. So, please don’t discourage people who desperately need help from trying it.

It’s not perfect, and doesn’t help everybody. They’ll tell you that on your first day. I found them to be pretty honest about the fact that many people in AA do not stop drinking despite going to meetings and seemingly trying to stop. Once you understand that it’s not magic voodoo that takes the place of applying yourself to the task at hand, but just a helping hand in doing so, that you have to “work at it”, and set your expectations accordingly, you have a much better chance of quitting for good.

Addicts trade in their addiction for (fill in blank) with an addiction for AA.

r436, that is a boring , tedious addiction

R436, I don’t agree, but if that were so, would it be so bad? It seems like quite an improvement.

R438- The epitome of an AA slogan slayer

Oh Francine! You're the drinkingest gal I know!

A bunch of narcissists who really hate helping others.

AA membership has been dwindling for the last decade. People want help based on medical science, not a BS powerless B S

R433 That's basically what happened to me, and most of my friends I grew up with in highschool and college who I would drink with. We all grew up and either stopped drinking and partying, or some drink in moderation/socially now. None of us went to AA or NA, or any sort of rehab/detox.

R434 How much of it do you eat? I ate it once and it was way too strong, like I was literally tripping on herb/THC, and felt like I was going to pass out as I was that stoned. Another time I ate some leftover Moroccan Sativa hash I had smoked in Spain, and it was a lot more mild even if smoking it was psychedelic.

I have insomnia and weed and alcohol never really helped unless I was coming down off of them. Getting up at the same time daily, and doing cardio-vascular exercise daily or every other day helps a lot as well. I have never taken sleeping pills, benzos, etc.

R444 You have to start really small. you can build up a tolerance pretty fast but at first, you only need the tiniest piece of whatever. I eat candy bars and you can break them into little pieces. You start small and wait two hours and if it doesn't do anything you eat a little more until you see how much you can handle.

I hate AA meetings here in Manhattan. The gay men are cliquey, gossips and very damaged goods.

R446 gay men are like that everywhere.

Do you really see happy people in the meetings? I don't. They seem bored, self obsessed and frankly like they don't want to be there.

R448, yes, I have. I often, or regularly, see people laughing with each other, like we often do hear. You seem to be the only sourpuss. Why are you so unhappy? Seriously. I am curious.

r449- a delusional AA member. Your post sounds bitter.

R448, I am just curious. You have more than 20 posts here expressing your upset with AA. I am genuinely curious as to what motivates you? Why are you so upset with AA?

I cannot speak for R448, but a lot of people are upset with AA.

Some hate being household labor for their sponsor, some hate being asked to give up a secure job, some hate getting ganged up on if they say the wrong thing at a meeting, some hate getting criticized for saving money, etc. etc.

If it works for you great, but there is a lot of weird stuff that gets people upset with the program.

You are speaking for R448, actually, and very well. Almost like you’re the same person, ha ha. You are not speaking for AA, of course, because none of that is part of AA. You apparently joined a cult of some kind, one that has nothing to do with AA. I can understand you being upset with your cult, but blaming it on AA is misplaced.

You should take responsibilities for your own actions, (such as joining that cult in the first place). That’s something you would have learned in AA, if you actually went there. Or, perhaps you went to AA afterall, and that’s what you’re really angry about, being told to take responsibility for your life, so you obsessively make write falsehoods here about AA.

[quote]Some hate being household labor for their sponsor, some hate being asked to give up a secure job, some hate getting ganged up on if they say the wrong thing at a meeting, some hate getting criticized for saving money, etc. etc.

None of these things happened to me in AA, and I have been sober longer than many of you have been alive.

Yes, I did join the cult of AA. And the way R453 speaks here is exactly how you get spoken to in AA. It is all about dominance and control. How much you want to bet R453 is someone's sponsor. The shrieking that he tried here works better face to face than in writing.

The whole thing about trying to make it that only one person here has ever had a bad experience with AA is getting tired. It works to keep pulling the same childish tactics when you are in the rooms. Outside it only looks pathetic.

R453 in one post encapsulates the whole sneering, gaslighting, repressive, domineering AA experience. You can picture him doing all the stuff I described. Take it as confirmation of my earlier post.

"You should take responsibilities for your own actions, (such as joining that cult in the first place). That’s something you would have learned in AA, if you actually went there. Or, perhaps you went to AA afterall, and that’s what you’re really angry about, being told to take responsibility for your life, so you obsessively make write falsehoods here about AA."

This is a typical AA FINGER WAVING judgmental asshole who so wants to get loaded.

I love AA. It saved my life. My AA fellowship is full of the best people I know.

I love AA, too. Different meetings reflect different communites....you might go to a rather uptight-seeming one on New York's Upper East Side, but then a very loose, beachy-feeling one in Hawaii or Malibu. If you don't like one that's on Tuesday nights, try one on Saturday mornings. Really, there's QUITE a few out there. And the vibe in a meeting will change in a year or two, with turnover, as people move from one neighborhood to another, or due to work schedules changing or whatever.

OR....suppose for some reason you absolutely [italic] can't stand [/italic] a single AA meeting you can get to...you just start your own AA meeting with the format you like, and invite the few (I'd hope there are at least a FEW!) members you've crossed paths with in other meetings that you liked...and then the meeting grows from there with your direct input. You can even have an AA meeting that's regularly hosted in your home; it just won't be listed in meeting books or on the website.

It's really not rocket science.

[quote]R431 AA only has a 5 to 10% success rate.

How would one track this, as it's annonymous?

It's not like there's a registry, or punch cards.

The relapse rates are astronomical . Total abstinence and the shame based, repetitive BS is too much to take..

“The relapse rates are astronomical” of course They are. Most addicts relapse at some point. Many addicts have multiple relapses. An addict who knows that they have a problem and spends the majority of their life afterword completely sober Is doing a pretty fucking terrific job. Kind of like monogamy. If someone is married for 50 years and cheated twice would you call that a bad marriage? Would you say that person was terrible at monogamy?

I’m not an alcoholic but I know a lot about 12 step programs in the terrific thing about AA Is that if someone is reading this and knows that they have a problem with alcohol, they can find a meeting over the next few hours either in person or over the telephone and find support from people who understand their problem and can’t is that if someone is reading this and knows that they have a problem with alcohol, they can find a meeting over the next few hours either in person or over the telephone and find support from people who understand their problem and can help that person on the road to sobriety.

If someone reading this thinks that they have a problem with drugs or alcohol, The best thing they can do is attend a few meetings and see for themselves if they recognize their own behaviors from the speakers.

Yes, and then they are free to leave and never return, if they want.

AA is really what one makes of it. Just like the rest of life.

R461 & 462 is absolutely , unequivocally an AA nazi

R461, it really does not work that way.

So many people go in and out of the rooms, it will probably be weeks before anyone speaks to them. And the support is not so much about the addiction (since that could be triggering) but rather about every other aspect of the addict's life.

I got a lot of good advice on buying a car, finding a decent apartment, help with finding a job. But not much in actually staying off drugs. That is something you have to work out on your own. But there are a lot of people to cheer you on when you do.

They say the newcomer is the most important person in the room, but they are the least. AA members are so self centered and delusional..

When I was a newcomer, I was immediately welcomed and embraced. I was killing myself with alcohol and they saved my life. I have never felt such neighborly love in my life.

That's how I experienced AA, too, R466. I feel bad for r465 and r464. I want to reiterate especially strongly that this never happened to me:

[quote]And the support is not so much about the addiction (since that could be triggering) but rather about every other aspect of the addict's life.

This isn't true. We have a straight woman -- Nan -- with food issues who comes to our gay men's NYC meeting. We love our Nan. You don't have to have alcohol issues to come to AA.

That's absolutely right R468. And you don't need to be gay, or male, to come to a GWM AA meeting.

I've been a bartender for over 15 years. Tasting and trying new drinks is part of the job description. But AA told me I had to quit my job. They told me to spend my time at meetings instead of working and to trust in the higher power that I would be able to find a new way to support myself financially.

They lied.

While asking an alcoholic to quit working as a bartender seems reasonable the whole humble job thing seems pointless. Asking anyone with a career to do it is just crazy.

Why does it make people so nasty?

r471, I have never heard of "anyone with a career" being asked to walk away from that career unless there was something wrong with either the career or the specific job. And I lived in DC when I got sober.

I have known sober bartenders, too. It's not something I would have wanted to do, but the two I knew didn't drink over serving drinks to others.

R473, it is suggested that people take humble jobs for awhile. Being a lawyer, professor, cop, etc. will feed one's grandiosity it is said.

Lost a sponsor over this.

How are you supposed to pay Manhattan rents on a humble job salary?

Way back when I was in AA -- pre internet -- having a job was frowned upon because it meant less time for meetings. If you had a job it should be something dead end that didn't require overtime. Pizza Hut was a popular place to work.

You were to attend one meeting a day if you were working, and at least two a day if you were unemployed.

Dating in the first year WAS encouraged. "You can't take a drink if you've got a dick in your mouth" was a commonly heard slogan in those days.

I know a woman who attends an AA meeting EVERY DAY 0F THE YEAR for FIFTEEN YEARS. I asked her why? her response: "I drank everyday, so I go to meetings everyday" She also can not have a conversation with someone without bringing up the twelve steps or alcoholism .

I knew someone like that R477. She went to the same meeting every day, until one day she missed it, and drank that day.

AA is serious business. Miss a meeting you could go back out.

The "humble jobs" thing sounds very cult-ish. They do not want people to have self-respect.

[quote]The "humble jobs" thing sounds very cult-ish.

It does, regardless of the motivation behind it.

What is it like to live under AA?

It ain't rocket science

The concept that newcomers are to quit their jobs and go work in a pizza shack is new to me...and I've been sober 25+ years.

What I heard was it's best not to make any major changes you don't have to in your first year, because simply experiencing life's challenged newly sober is hard enough without throwing moving, divorcing or a new job into the mix.

The poster who's claiming this also says sponsees are regularly pressed into service cleaning out their sponsors' rain gutters, etc....so, really, I don't know if they imagined it all, or got sober behind the Iron Curtain, or [italic]what.

R484 It's called showing willingness. Anyone who is really in AA will get the concept.

I get the concept, r485, and I've been sober since the '80s. But at no point did anyone ask me to "show willingness" by cleaning his rain gutters, doing his laundry, or by stepping down from a professional job. People and meetings that are feeding you that line of shit need to be reported to the General Service Office in New York. They have perverted AA for their own desires.

Anyone who has read the AA literature knows the sponsee/sponsor relationship is not about subjugation or free labor.

It is unfortunate you did not take the time to read it.

What part of the country did you rain gutter clearers/job quitters get sober in, anyway?

r485 also claims he was ostracized in AA for not leaving his nice apartment and moving into a humbler one...in squalor, or something.

It all sounds very dramatic!

Where do these people live?

I don't think they live anywhere but in the posters imagination.

R489, it was very dramatic and that is why I left the program.

No one asked me to move into squalor. It was more of a lateral move, to show that I was willing to take direction and go to any lengths to get clean and sober. Or it may have been part of step three willingness—I do not exactly remember.

Most of what they asked was pretty non-sensical.

And no, I was never asked to clean my sponsor’s rain gutter, but I was expected to help him clean out his garage and do his gardening with him.

I do disagree that the sponsor/sponsee relationship is not about subjugation. No one will admit it, but that is exactly what it is about. When you admit that your life is unmanageable and let someone else do some of the management, what else is that buy subjugation?

Contrary to what was said earlier, sponsorship is barely discussed in the literature. Sponsors are not referred to in the Big Book, but are mentioned in the 12 and 12. However, the 12 and 12 does not get into the practicalities of the relationship….or the steps for that matter. AA does not specify how to do any steps before the 4th, so how a sponsor chooses to work them is up to the individual sponsor. How exactly a sponsee is supposed to demonstrated that they have done the step is up to the sponsor.

I thought the whole thing would keep me sick, and I wanted to be well, so I left.

[quote]R492 Contrary to what was said earlier, sponsorship is barely discussed in the literature.

R487 links to AA literature that's specifically about sponsorship, copyright 1976.

I guess your supposed experience was before then?

I never saw anything like that thing linked. AA is pretty strict about what is allowed into meetings. It is the Big Book, the 12 &12, and Daily Reflections. Even Bibles and other spiritual books were verboten., Not sure where you would find something like that.

Even so it confirms my point. Sponsors are free to sponsor how they choose and all the sponsee can do is get another sponsor if they do not like it. There are no guidelines for how the sponsor ascertains if the sponsee has done those first three steps.So if he wants you to help him in the garden or move to show that willingness of step three, or turn over some decisions to him to show that you admit your life is unmanageable, there is nothing to stop him. All the sponsee can do is leave.

[quote]R494 Not sure where you would find something like that.

Yes you do, because we had this same conversation upthread, when you chimed in after R162.

You just want to keep repeating your sad ficticious sob story again and again.

AA is not part of my life anymore so I forgot about this. I am sorry.

Still not sure where you would find this stuff pre-internet---oh, right those AA bookstores that are all over the place. I still have never seen one, but I will take DL’s word that they can be found all over the place.

I still think that in general if they provided more practical help to newcomers and maybe even explain what to expect it would help. Or if they provided more guidelines on how sponsors can determine if the steps have been done. Maybe less restrictions on the literature allowed in meetings so that pamphlets etc. could be more readily available to those who do not know about the AA bookstores.

I left because I thought the whole thing was bullshit. The chores, the bizarre tasks, and the submissive attitude seemed to have little to do with being clean and sober. As someone here said, it was very “dramatic” and I did not need that.

[quote]R496 Still not sure where you would find this stuff pre-internet---oh, right those AA bookstores that are all over the place. I still have never seen one, but I will take DL’s word that they can be found all over the place.

You have been told that there is usually a literature table in the meeting room, and an announcement made that the brochures are free and books can be purchased at cost. Yet you persist in imagining this sponsorship brochure, which is printed by and for AA and is over 40 years old, is some obscure, secret piece.

What is wrong with you?

R497 I was in the program for years and manned the coffee bar/book sales many times. I never saw any "brochures". The literature table carried the BB, 12&12, and Daily Reflections.

Maybe it is not a "secret" piece, but it certainly is not as widely distributed as as other material. And it still says the sponsor has freedom to work the steps as he sees fit--which I think is a big problem and a wide opening for abuse of power. People are not in great shape when they come into the program. They are desperate and vulnerable. And sponsors are allowed--even encouraged in the brochure--to work the steps in whatever way they want.

What is wrong with you that you do not see the potential for abuse?

What is wrong with you that you deny the actual abuses of power you have seen in the program?

When I went to AA we were told which meetings to attend. They looked down on general meetings. You were supposed to stay with The Group and go to the same circuit of meetings they went to. Your sponor and grandsponsor were also to be from within the group if you wanted to be accepted.

Here's the AA pamphlets "Questions and Answers on Sponsorship." I only speed-read it today, but I don't believe it addresses Doing Sponsor's Housework for Him, as no such circumstance was ever anticipated. Ditto "humble jobs." That bullshit sounds very "Midtown Group," c. late 1990s, Washington, DC. Same with what r499 is talking about. Those groups and meetings are not AA. They are a hijacked version of AA, using AA as a structure for some dude's "Self Will Run Riot" (as they say in AA).

R499, I hope you eventually found real AA.

I forgot how everyone was convinced that they were the real AA and everyone else was not.

But there was never any real difference between approaches . It was just another power thing.

This stuff makes AA exhausting.

I have many years in and around the fellowship. I have never heard anything like subjugation, chores, or any such twaddle. AA saved my life. The people I know are wonderful. Like all assemblies of human beings, there is variety of behavior and motive. Anybody who is struggling with addiction or alcoholism can seek help from good neighbors.

Did the GSO kick the hijacked group out R500? If not, that group is AA.

All groups are autonomous. Therefore any group you go to IS AA. There is no formal model of how to do AA.

Apparently not, r504.

Well that's just sad R505. What excuse did GSO give? They don't get involved in outside issues?

I suppose so, r506. That article is from 2007, and I no longer live in DC. Also, I looked up meetings on the DC AA website, and the original "Midtown Group" seems no longer to be meeting. It was a speaker's meeting on Sunday nights at the Church of the Pilgrims, P Street on the border of Georgetown and Dupont Circle. Nothing listed now.

[quote]R498 What is wrong with you that you do not see the potential for abuse?

Practically every aspect of life has potential for abuse. And having a sponsor in AA isn't mandatory...it's an option that's usually available. It may not even be available at all, as maybe people would decline to be someone's sponsor.

It's unfortunate you ended up with this super-controlling sponsor, but it's wrong to say the relationship is supposed to be all about "power and control" just because that happened to you. Besides which, since you didn't make the changes in job and housing this person demanded, life worked the way it's supposed to, didn't it? You crossed paths with a crazy person and rightly didn't listen to them.

[quote]R498 What is wrong with you that you deny the actual abuses of power you have seen in the program?

I have not witnessed abusive sponsor/sponsee relationships, myself. I did know 2 sponsees who lived with their separate sponsors, which is rather more entwined than you'd expect. The first one slept on a bed in his sponsor's kitchen, because his life was crashing and burning when he got into the program, and he needed a space, and these two became friends. Then when he got on his feet and saved some money, he moved into his own place. The second raised my eyebrows a bit, as the sponsor wanted to meet the sponsee's dates, etc., and was being much more "conservative parent" about it, but that was between them and I'd guess both sides were happy, or my friend (who was 30) would have moved out. It's really not my place to judge others' sobriety or how they go about it.

There are a bunch of statements in that brochure that point to how the sponsee is to be in control of the relationship; the sponsor is merely there as a resource the sponsee can use if they want.

[quote]In A.A., sponsor and sponsored meet as equals...

[quote]If the sponsor’s ideas sound strange or unclear, the newcomer had better speak up and ask questions. Theirs is supposed to be an easy, open relationship, in which both parties talk freely and honestly with each other.

[quote]We are always free to select another sponsor with whom we feel more comfortable, particularly if we believe this member will be more helpful to our growth in A.A.

[quote]"What does a sponsor do?" Encourages and helps the newcomer to attend a variety of A.A. meetings — to get a number of viewpoints and interpretations of the A.A.program....Quickly admits, “I don’t know” when that is the case, and helps the newcomer find a good source of information...Does not pretend to know all the answers, and does not keep up a pretense of being right all the time.

[quote] The most effective sponsors recognize that alcoholics who join A.A. must eventually stand on their own feet and make their own decisions — and that there is a difference between helping people to their feet and insisting on holding them up thereafter.

AA can create eating disorders due to "obsessions with food" sex addiction . Essentially anything that is pleasurable they sneer at...

I don't understand these people who claim they've been in the program for years but never seen anything weird happen in the program.

They are either doing the weird stuff, or are immersed in the weirdness of the others they can no longer tell what is weird anymore.

R110 I don't understand these people who claim they've been in the program for years but never seen anything weird happen in the program.

There have been uncomfortable [italic] moments [/italic] I've experienced in AA, but I don't think I've ever seen anything WEIRD....given the circumstances.

Or maybe it's that I got sober in NYC and then moved to L.A., where people are just weird to begin with. So it didn't really stand out.

I'll try to think of something that gave me pause....

^^ G-dammit....that first part was supposed to be a quote!! Like so:

[quote]R110 I don't understand these people who claim they've been in the program for years but never seen anything weird happen in the program.

Then let me repeat it for you, r513: in 35 years in AA, I have never known of anyone who insisted that another member (a) clean someone else's apartment or house unless they were getting paid to do it; (b) take a worse job than the one they already had; (c) move to a worse apartment (unless they couldn't afford the place they were in).

R514, I have seen both a) and b). I do not think I have ever seen c). There is not a single person on this thread who claims to have seen that.

But yes, I have seen people asked to move to show willingness as they work through the first steps. They did not need to go to a worse place. Many moved someplace better.

I am with R510. I really do not get it.

Where do you live, r515? I did not see any such odd behavior in DC or Pittsburgh. Of course, I stayed away from the Midtown Group.

At the Pacific Group they go to do chores at Clancy I's house. That is commonly known. I don't know what meetings R515 goes to but he don't went to the right ones.

Re: chores at Clancy’s house / the Pacific Group. When I lived in L.A. I would hear leery comments about this, and then I met someone who was happy attending that group. I asked about the “chores” rumor, and he CLAIMED the practice was the guys (don’t know if women participated) regularly played baseball in Clancey’s yard on the weekends and would spend time clearing it of dog poop beforehand.

Now MAYBE this is an elaborate cover story, or MAYBE that’s the extent of it.

I’m only repeating what I was told.

I did a google search on “Clancy pacific group”

Here’s an interesting article about some groups the (anonymous) (sober) author’s attended over the years and he feels were cult-like. Two are now defunct.

Luckily, I’ve never been to any of these, so can’t corroborate anything in the Article. I’m going to have to look up the old NEWSWEEK piece he mentions.

The stuff in the article is extreme, but the emergence of such groups is foreseeable. When people come to you at their most vulnerable, and you put them under the control of another person, however benevolent but without training or ethical guidelines, it is only a matter of time till something goes wrong.

I've heard that as well R462, that if a certain AA/NA meeting is not something you like, for whatever reason you just find another AA/NA meeting or group.

I am personally not addicted to alcohol or drugs, but I have friends who are. Some are big into going to AA/NA, and credit it with helping them stay sober, and go to a weekly meeting. Others did go at first, when they first became sober or were forced to when in a rehab/detox or drug treatment center, but no longer go because they are way too busy with life, a partner/spouse who also got sober, etc.

[quote]R520 the emergence of such groups is foreseeable. When people come to you at their most vulnerable, and you put them under the control of another person, however benevolent but without training or ethical guidelines, it is only a matter of time till something goes wrong.

But something goes wrong in EVERY aspect of life....there's always going to be a few fucked up people in any given scenario who will take advantage of a situation, or another's naivete, or whatever. There are just psychos out there who want to advance themselves at the expense of others.

That's not a reflection on AA....it's a reflection on LIFE.

R463. Im not a member of AA. I drink. Have attended meetings For another program.

Don't take it personally, R523. The person who rails agains AA in these threads is an ANTI-AA NAZI!

Nothing pleases him. He sounds quite troubled.

r524 is

R525 Are you sloshed?

"If I got nothing else out of AA than it stopped my frequent hangovers and splitting headaches, it would be enough for me.

I'm glad I have a clearer head and stabler body now....amongst a hundred other things.

AA isn't going to work for everyone. Nothing works for everyone. I'm glad it worked for me."

YOU stopped the suffering!

The 'humble job' thing is meant for people new to recovery, are unemployed and need a part time or no-stress job. Anyone in AA, including a sponsor, who advises or suggests you should quit gainful employment should be avoided like the plague.

[quote]R527 YOU stopped the suffering!

With the help of AA.

I had tried to quit and “stop the suffering” on my own several times before, going back years.

What finally worked for me was the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Others can do whatever they want...alone, or together, or with some other approach. Or with you.

AA members are generally over all these dumb AA threads.

Gay Alcoholics Anonymous in my city is nothing more than a clique of dry drunks...cruel and bitchy men and humorless womyn, with a couple of transgender people thrown in for good measure. My therapist actually discouraged me from going back because I have too much resentment towards AA. He and I do good work on my mental health issues which drove me to drink in the first place. I haven’t looked back. It served its purpose for me in the early years of sobriety...went a long way in getting me to admit that I am an alcoholic. But that pink cloud dissipated and I did not like what I saw.

r531 Glad you got sober, however you did it : )

Were the straight/mixed meetings the same as the gay meetings....or that's all you were interested in?

It's a shame based program and encourages helplessness and the "disease" as the cause of all your problems. If you have feelings, like anger, sadness , feeling lonely, they will tell you that it "your disease fucking with you" AA also gives many excuses for relapsing due to booze and drugs being so "cunning, baffling and powerful"

It's not the only way to recovery! In fact, it's detrimental to your mental health and self confidence and self reliance. They put more emphasis on the "disease" than God who is supposed to be center of recovery . They want relapsing, deaths and horror stories. This gives the "old timers" a self righteous gloat on how they are so fortunate and keeps them c coming back for more GroundHOG day shit.

They can be cliquey, hardcore crazy like Erna/MPC, and cult-like in some ways. Not all of them but some are like this.

R531 here r532...

Sorry it’s been so long. I thought that this thread was dead. I got more from the straight/mixed meetings than LGBT meetings. Less distractions like cruising and gossip.

The difference between what OP says and suburban white women is what again? Yeah. Fuck off, mug cradler.

Bump

The atlantic wrote a terrific article about the "real" success rate of AA and why viable treatments were held back from Americans (hint: religion and conservative nutjobs)

Who bumped this flaming piece of shit thread?

[quote]r240 Who bumped this flaming piece of shit thread?

The anti-AA loon.

Some gay group he supposedly attended back in the day ruined his life for a time.

I figured it was the OP, who is a self-loathing lesbian. She’s also the one who starts all the autism threads.

R541 i bumped it because i was doing other research, i ran into this, read the article and remembered this thread on the DL. Try to consume facts and good journalism instead, ok?

^^ LIES!

We suggest you try some [italic]scrupulous honesty![/italic] (Oh right; you didn't stick around, so you never quite aquired that.)