What do I do if an elderly relative with dementia is dumped on me by her family?

Didn't we already answer this for you?

What happened to the other thread?

I posted this for someone else. Perhaps the DL-er with the problem can elaborate.

Obviously you can evict her, BUT--

your father left you the house AND he asked you to take care of her. You're in a bind here. Yes, you should push for power of attorney so that you can talk to her doctors (and have her given more meds). You can go to court and challenge her competency. (You'll have to bring records and witnesses and --as we told you in the original thread--recordings of her voicemails that she leaves you.)

Datalounge is not the place to find out your legal options.

But it is your house, so you are kind of at risk already from her doing something (like setting an accidental fire.)

The real question is whether there is any entertainment value in this scenario for us. Are her delusions at all unique or at least amusingly infuriating? Can you describe your upcoming ordeal as if penning the first treatment of a John Waters movie?

Call Adult Protective Services. Their social workers can help assess her & help you.

My recommendation though is taking her to the nearest pysch hospital . They can do an emergency admission.They may be able to cajole her into signing herself in. She would be assessed & admitted to the Geri-Neiro Psych floor. They have people trained in every aspect of this type of situation from MDs, RNs, Social Workers etc.. They would find the best drug therapy for her & assist you in becoming her POA if you want. They will assess if she can function independently at home or if she needs assisted care

I've been thru this with family & believe me it's better to do it now than when it becomes emergent. I know it seems frightening to become POA but it makes things so much easier.

If I’m POA I’m completely financially responsible for her and I can’t afford it. She has no money and a small pension that won’t pay the bills. I’m drowning financially here.

I called Adult Protective Services several times. They focus on abuse and people who are so out of it they can’t have a conversation. If you can have any sort of conversation at all, they just leave.

I’ve called a couple law firms, spoken to four Social Services workers now, and they all say if she can say anything remotely coherent they won’t help.

I’m really afraid of this situation because a parent had dementia and became obsessed with the idea I was going to kill them. They called my job, boss, all my coworkers and relatives, and wrecked my reputation. I lost my job right in the middle of a recession and became homeless.

I did call everyone I can find. I’m afraid I’m going to be accused of neglect because I just can’t handle her all alone when she’s already turning on me. She’s very paranoid and doesn’t trust me. She throws a fit if I get anywhere near her, but she can’t take care of herself either. I can’t get any witnesses or backup anywhere because I can’t get anyone involved.

I was already POA for a person that was mentally ok. It was difficult but they were cooperative so it was doable. She absolutely refuses to cooperate, tell the doctor what’s going on or let anybody else do it either.

What’s my liability here? The only option I’m being given is to evict her. She has nowhere to go and no one to monitor what happens next.

R6^^

A couple of things:

1. If she is not mentally competent, she cannot legally grant a POA. She must be aware of what she is signing and what she authorizing for the POA to be valid.

2. A POA does not make you financially responsible for her. It merely gives you authority to act on her behalf.

3. You really need to talk to a lawyer and the rest of your family. Generally, you cannot be held legally responsible for your relative's actions, although a claim could possibly be made that you negligently enabled her to do something. Getting there is a a pretty big stretch from merely allowing her to live in a property you own.

You can always call the admission department at the psych hospital & give them a run down on the phone regarding her behavior. The admission department of these hospitals are completely different than a regular hospital. These folks are highly trained & can ascertain if she needs to come in for assessment & admission. They will also facilitate things if you tell them she would be resistant to you bringing her.

Now when I say psych hospitals I'm not talking state run. I'm talking private. I wouldn't sens a dog to a state run hospital. If she has Medicare (and she most definitely would) then a private hospital will gladly accept her.

I had to deal with this so many times because I am the POA for my elderly relative who has schizophrenia.

You will be investigated for neglect if a neighbor calls authorities that she's living in your home & you knew of her mental condition.

That’s what I’m worried about R10. She’s called the police on the neighbors over and over, they know something’s up. Also, she’s contacted other neighbors and they know her claims are not true.

I finally reached her nearest relatives after they’d been avoiding my calls for a week. They said no way in hell are they getting involved no matter what. They’re not kidding.

I can’t get her to a psych hospital because she won’t go. I don’t think she’d get in a car with me at this point. To make matters worse, the house needs repairs and I can’t get anyone in there to do them. I told the social worker that. She says it’s all up to her, nobody can tell her no or control her in any way. She can do anything she likes and she refuses to leave. She needs to leave for the repairs to take place but she won’t.

If you think about helping some older person, think of this and don’t do it. This is a legal quicksand. No matter what I do I’m wrong.

Also, I called my lawyer and also another lawyer that specializes in the elderly but they wouldn’t take it. Any guess what type of lawyer would take it?

I'd suggest a trip up north and an ice floe, but with climate change.......

R11

The hospital told me they would step in if ever I couldn't get my cousin to cooperate by allowing me to bring her to the hospital.

They call the Sheriffi's Department & they'd bring her.

I’m not hearing anything like that, R15. They keep telling me as long as she seems “alert,” nobody can do anything.

About 90% of the problem is the way the laws are written.

Drive her out to the countryside...near a nice farm...?

OP, how did she end up living in your house? Do you also live in the same house with her, or do you live elsewhere?

[quote]The only option I’m being given is to evict her. She has nowhere to go and no one to monitor what happens next.

OP, it sounds like this is what you must do. Once she is evicted, she will have to rely on social services even for a roof over head. Eviction sounds like a terrible thing to do to an elderly person, but in the end it will be the kindest because it will force her to get the help she needs.

This is such EST bullshit, OP. If you're not the OP of the thread as you say above, but are posting on behalf of someone else, why are you commenting as if you were the OP? It makes no sense.

In typical EST style, you don't bother to actually describe exactly what her problems are, or why her behaviors are a problem for you.

And you're mocking a difficult and painful situation that is real to many with your stupid histronic attention-grabbing. So fucking disgusting.

This isn't even a difficult situation. Call your local Area Agency on Aging - they are all over the US - and tell them you need an attorney to file a petition of guardianship. It's too late for a POA - she's too cray. Some states, counties and cities have attorneys to handle these things; they may even have people to act as guardian. Ask the area agency about these things.

Of course you have documented all the things she's doing and not doing, right? Use nonpayment of rent as a reason she can't care for herself anymore - being unable to pay bills is a sign of being incompetent.

I had a good friend who went through this with his mother. He lived 2000 mi from her and his sister lived 8000 mi away. Mom was demented and had signs of other mental illness. But they were still able to hire a lawyer, have a hearing, and get her a local guardian to put her in a home and to manage her affairs. And she didn't even burn down anything first.

And so can you. Get to work and quit whining on Datalounge.

You can have a guardian appointed for her.

R/9, thanks for attacking me when I am having a really difficult time. That’s really helpful.

My state has really bad social services. I keep being steered over and over again to Adult Protective Services. They and every other agency I talk to say as long as she’s alert and knows where she is, she can send every agency away and do whatever she wants. They tell me over and over that I cannot contact her doctor, make her go anywhere or do anything. They keep saying, “if she’ll willingly go with you...” well, she won’t willingly do anything, including admit there’s a problem. I can’t get a POA without her permission, can’t do anything without her permission, because other than these delusions she’s having, she can carry on a conversation with people. The standards for being “competent” are extremely low. Basically you have to know your own name, where you are and the date. That’s it.

I just spoke to Social Services yesterday. They say if she tells them they can’t come in, they can’t. If she says they can’t talk to her doctor, they can’t. If she says they’re not allowed to tell me what they saw, they can’t.

If I could get cooperation from her, I wouldn’t have asked someone to start this thread for me, I could take her to the doctor and at least tell the doctor what’s happening. I can’t. I don’t have her permission and his office won’t even let me speak to him at all. I don’t know what’s happening with the doctor or whether he knows what’s going on or is doing anything about it. Or whether she will listen to him even if he is trying to something. As far as I can tell he has no contact name to contact if there’s an issue. I don’t even know how a doctor would let someone get away with that.

She is hallucinating that the neighbors are trying to kill her. She is extremely paranoid, imagines she hears voices, and is extremely irritable and starts shouting if she’s told the voices are not real. She was calling me around the clock, all hours of the day and night, saying the voices were saying they were going to kill her. Shes said again and again that she’s terrified. No one can tell her it’s not happening. She’s told some of this to neighbors so they now avoid her. They don’t want to get involved. Neither do her family. Believe me I’ve tried everything. There is nothing funny about this. But from the authorities’ point of view, nothing matters but that she’s coherent enough to refuse help.

I spoke to one lady (at the wrong department, unfortunately), who said she had a similar problem with a relative. This lady thought she was being continually raped, the room was covered in her blood, and they were in the same room with her and she was fine. No blood. Even someone that delusional can’t be taken away without their permission if they minimally know who they are and where they are.

I did speak to some lady at a mental hospital I got passed around to. They said if I could get her in a car and get her to agree to enter...but she won’t agree or go anywhere with me.

I’m very concerned because physically she’s not fit either and she can only be left alone a few days at a time. It’s been a week. But she’s not understanding how bad off she is or that she can’t get by without assistance. Every time I go there the house is dirty, there’s no food. She lives off fast food. She hasn’t checked the mail for three months. I have the key and I checked it. There were a bunch of doctor bills but I can’t open them because it’s a felony.

I’m really concerned that if something happens to her, I’ll get charged with neglect. I know she can’t maintain her household without assistance. I know her family will blame me for anything that happens but they won’t help her or go see her.

I’m also afraid of what the HOA is going to do if she continues to call the police on the neighbors she thinks are threatening her. The HOA is taking the stance that the neighbors are innocent (as far as I can tell they are), and they’re not being friendly or cooperative at all, which they never were even before this.

R22

Those symptoms do not sound like dementia.

R24, actually I looked up dementia and some people with dementia do hear voices and other sounds that aren’t there. She was not hearing any voices until about a year ago although she had physical health issues. She was secretive about this until about six months ago and things have gotten worse over even a few months as far as I can tell.

She also hears other sounds that aren’t happening, which she describes as the neighbor pumping sounds into her house to torture her. A lot of the stuff she hears, like whispering, wouldn’t be possible for her to hear even if someone was actually doing it, because of the layout of the house. They’re too far away.

It does sound like schizophrenia, but she’s never had that before and people with dementia can hallucinate sounds.

Of course it’s possible she has a brain tumor or something but I’m not allowed to discuss it with her doctor and he is so scared of losing his license he won’t talk to me.

Sell the house, leave town, buy a twink

You already asked about her last week and got plenty of good advice in the "what is your biggest problem in life" thread.

[quote]They say if she tells them they can’t come in, they can’t. If she says they can’t talk to her doctor, they can’t. If she says they’re not allowed to tell me what they saw, they can’t.

As you were already told on the other thread, they are right. You (and they) have no legal right to her medical information without her permission, they have no right to go into her home without permission, etc.

You need to talk to a lawyer. Your claim that lawyers refuse to even speak to you is bullshit.

We can't help you, especially when you play the It's An Impossible Situation Game and keep adding new wrinkles to the situation that up the difficulty.

I recently heard from a psychiatrist that you must find ways to bend the rules in order to make the system work for you when a family member is mentally ill. He suggested calling up their doctor/doctor’s office and telling them, “I’m a relative of X. I know that due to HIPPA you are not allowed to talk to me or even confirm she is a patient, however the law does not say you can’t just listen to me.” ...and then proceed to tell them the information you think it’s vital for them to know.

Also, this may seem obvious, but I would start a little journal where you begin to list and keep of every attempt to do something. “Called APS. Was told if she knows her name, there’s nothing to be done.” Etc.

I would also suggest you going to the local police department. Introduce yourself. Explain your concerns (not just for her health but her physical safety).

Don't be hystrionic but be assertive that you are worried for her & others. There needs to be a paper trail that you are doing everything in your power to advocate for her.

Hopefully someone at the police department will give you some direction.

I do know for a fact the police do not have to have her permission to enter if they are there for welfare check. I've dealt with that myself when someone called them worried I was going to commit suicide.

The standard is, “are they an immediate danger to themselves or others.” Threatening to commit suicide is an immediate danger. They can take you out if your house if they think it’s credible. Apparently hearing voices isn’t an immediate threat.

The police have already been out there. I called them and asked them to do a wellness check which is what caused this situation to get a lot worse really quick. She became enraged that I called them. She thinks she is 100% fine and no one will listen to her or help her, so she sees my calling the police as an attack on her.

I spoke to the policeman a long time while he was there. He said she told him him her version of what was going on, he saw it wasn’t true, but she’s not in immediate danger. He said she wasn’t bad enough for him to pick her up or have her hospitalized. Immediate danger is basically if he leaves her there she’ll die.

R30, I went to see the doctor in person. The nurses in reception absolutely refuses to let me see him or even tell him I was there. I think he’s afraid of getting sued. I know damn well that he’s supposed to listen to me but I can’t get anywhere near him. When my parents were old, I often talked to both their doctors. This guy won’t come anywhere near me. I told the social worker that. I asked her to tell him what’s going on but she says no. I found out the doctor has a low rating for customer service so he’s probably trying to avoid complaints.

Believe me, I wouldn’t be bringing this up here if I could get any cooperation from anybody anywhere. The law firms I spoke to both said they would take an elder abuse case, not a case where the person just won’t cooperate with anyone. I think it’s because they know how hard it is to get any cooperation from any government entity. All the elder services are based on abuse.

I have a sister going through this situation with her brother in law. He's made death threats against everyone in the family, has threatened all kinds of strangers, and refuses to let Social Services and his doctor share their information about him with the family. Despite his schizophrenia and being unemployed, he has no problem getting credit cards which he maxxes out. He's living in the house his mother left for him, but it's rundown and a hoarder's house. When the furnace went out, the hvac crew refused to set foot in the house as long as he was present.

My sister and his brother are trying to get the house fixed up and sold (the money would be put into a trust for him) because he can't afford to live in it on his SSDI, mush less maintain it. They need to sell it before it deteriorates to the point of becoming a tear-down. Problem is, Social Services can't/won't find an apartment or group home for him, saying he's too dangerous. Their solution? Move him in with his family, who he's already attacked and threatened to kill.

My sister and BIL, like you, are now looking at eviction as the last resort to force the Social Services to do something about him. And for all those assholes who're gonna say, "What about his family?", no family is obligated to assist anyone who poses a threat to them.

OP, her future may be living on the streets, and there may not be a damned thing you can do about it. You've supported her this far. If you have legitimate reasons for eviction, don't feel guilty, just do it. Your neighbors will thank you.

But if you really MUST continue the fight, it's time to get in touch with your politicians. Call your county commissioners, or the State Department of Human Services. Tell them the story, give them the name of the social worker. Because the criteria they are using to assess her mental wellbeing is utter bullshit. She's playing you, probably because the county is trying to keep their caseload down. There's a standard 5 minute cognitive evaluation that is performed by medical personnel and social workers as the first step in determining competency. She's not doing it. Raise hell with the county and state DHS about them not doing their job.

Absolute last resort, go to your local newspaper and tell them the story. They love to expose government incompetence, especially when it involves the poor, the elderly, the disabled.

[quote]She's playing you, probably because the county is trying to keep their caseload down.

Bingo, they know this woman has someone (OP) looking after her, even though only tangentially. But that's enough to get them off the hook and not bother to jump in. They have bigger fish to fry, I suppose.

OP needs to evict her to force the issue. Once she's out on the street social services can't ignore her. They will try to call OP to drag him back in. Then it will be his turn to ignore THEIR pleas for help.

Thanks R34.

I called my state senator, congressperson and the governor’s office at the suggestion of a friend. Two are Republicans and referred me back to Adult Protective Services with no follow up. As if I hadn’t tried that first. The Democrat suggested Social Services, where I already had a message in and was waiting for a call back. They have two days to call back. Somebody also referred me to the attorney general’s office but he just referred me. All of these people are referring me to APS or Social Services. The Social Services person is a part time worker and in the middle of our conversation it was time for her to go home, so she just said she had to go and that was it.

What I’ve been told is that the police have limited expertise and their standards for removing someone are impossibly high. But Social Services is supposed to be more trained. The SS worker said if she knocks on the door and she won’t let her in or talk to her, that’s the end. There doesn’t seem to be any mechanism for making her answer questions she doesn’t want to answer.

My mom had dementia and she was delusional too. She spread horrible rumors about me based on her delusions and I ended up losing my job because she wouldn’t quit calling there. She was harassing my coworkers on a daily basis.

I’m really concerned what happens if this woman starts telling all these people some story about me. She’s extremely paranoid and thinks anyone who tells her no or tries to get her help is evil.

OP, I'm sorry that you're going through this. You're a decent person with a good heart.

It sounds as if your relative is suffering from "delusional disorder". It often occurs with dementia, but it can strike at any age, really. (It's different from schizophrenia in that the obsessions or delusions are limited to a small scope. If you can keep the person distracted from the "hot topics", they appear completely normal. One of the symptoms of most mental illnesses is "lack of insight"; this means the person with a disorder doesn't recognize that anything is wrong with them. Therefore, they refuse to take medication. There might be a medicine that could change their lives, make them "normal", but if they don't want to take it, there's not a thing you can do legally. Sometimes medication (e.g. Abilify) works in combination with therapy; sometimes it doesn't. If her doctor can persuade her to try medicine, get her to do it via injection. (It's so easy to stop taking oral meds.)

I don't know why the "system" won't do anything. I don't understand why, if several close relatives agree that a person is delusional, that he or she cannot be forced to take medication. And, it seems like it would be less expensive for the system to provide some support, forced medication by injection, rather than fund a person's stay in a psychiatric hospital after they're evicted from their home because family and neighbors are afraid of them.

I agree with the person who said to keep a journal of your attempts to get help. If the HOA tries to have her removed, it would seem that she's being punished for having a disability (even though she would deny that anything's wrong with her.)

[quote]What do I do if an elderly relative with dementia is dumped on me by her family?

1. Move.

2. Tell no one.

I've known people who've had their relatives deemed incompetent because the relative was spending huge amounts of money on drugs.

Why exactly won't the lawyers you talked to take your case? What did they tell you?

You're not the only one in your state or city with this problem. The appropriate people see this all the time.

Get rid of all guilt and start legal,proceedings to evict her. Maybe it’s as easy as not renewing her lease - if she had one. Or documenting disturbances. It will take resolve and you need to give up,the ghost of guilt and responsibility and whatever commitments you made. It’s your life and she is in dementia and she is not your mother. But you have to be ok not being liked or “the good boy”. A big life lesson being handed to you.

Can you just say she's threatening to kill you, and they'll lock her up in a home???

She has no lease and lives there rent free so everybody else wants her to stay there. This is a problem handed down to me by my father. He told her she could stay there and I didn’t have a problem with it until she started harassing people and becoming abusive to me.

Looking back now, my father never should have put me in this situation. We both thought we were doing the right thing. My funds are limited. I can’t afford a lot of attorney’s fees dragging on for years. I’ll be wiped out. God help me if the HOA or neighbor decides to sue. They certainly have cause. She’s repeatedly called the police on the neighbors. They’re going to get sick of it eventually.

The local authorities want to dump it on me. They keep telling me to get a POA or conservatorship over her at the same time they are told she won’t agree to it and they are letting her do whatever she wants with no supervision. I’m afraid I’m being set up for neglect charges.

R39, I don’t get it really. I was referred to a law firm that specializes in elder care. I thought that was good until they said they did elder abuse cases only. They also thought she wasn’t incompetent enough to be committed, so there was nothing they could do.

You are, in fact, allowed to discuss or give opinions or facts to her treating physicians about her or anyone else. You are not restricted from doing so, you do not need her permission.

State law varies on her tenant rights, but you can follow the law in your state and have her removed from your property, and perhaps hasten involvement of social services. Your moral obligation to serve as her next friend or guardian is seperate from legal obligation, and the state can find an unrelated person to serve in this capacity.

The solution seems obvious, though it would be easier if the “relative” were younger.

I considered giving OP some well thought out, considerate advice until I saw that he keeps getting that and ignores it. Now that's out of the way. Everyone you try to communicate with avoids you. Doctors, nurses, Adult Protective Services, State Representatives, family members, psychiatrists, auto mechanics, migrant farm workers, and that crazy old homeless guy you tried hook her up with see you and duck behind bushes, close the shutters, turn the open sign to closed, and find all manner of methods so they don't have to talk to you. They are sending a clear message: you are the problem. It seems like the old broad is the only person willing to give you the time of day. If I were you I wouldn't try to get rid of her. Imagine how lonely you'll be.

Remain helpless.

Thanks R46. I guess the police are crazy too because she told them the story about hearing voices and they examined the house, looked in the attic and every place, and told her, no people hiding or voices. The policeman told me, she seemed to consider what he was saying for a minute but then dismissed it and changed the subject. The policeman was really nice but hearing voices isn’t being an immediate danger to herself or others. So he couldn’t do anything.

I just read it’s very common for elderly people to get urinary tract infections and somehow that makes them hear voices or hallucinate. If they get treatment it goes away. The problem is, no one will contact her doctor for me and he won’t talk to me. I’m aware he’s not supposed to refuse to talk to me but he’s doing it.

I guess saying I’m to blame because people won’t do their job may make some people feel better, but it’s not helping anything.

From the link:

“Since elders’ bodies respond differently to infection, it is important to look for different signs and symptoms. One tell-tale symptom of UTIs in the elderly is often mistaken for the early stages of dementia or Alzheimer's disease, according to National Institutes of Health (NIH). Indicators of infection in seniors include the following:

“Confusion or delirium

Agitation

Hallucinations

Other unusual behavioral changes

Poor motor skills or loss of coordination

Dizziness

Falling”

I’ve also read people with dementia can develop hallucinations due to UTIs.

This is good stuff to know if you have elderly people in your life.

What is her age?

Also, you said in the other thread that she is on disability. What kind of disability does she have? (I mean, mental or physical?)

It ought to be clear to you by now that the DL's hive mind is not going to solve your problem.

Why (after two posts on the subject and scores of replies) is this not obvious to you?

As you describe the situation, there is no solution despite your best efforts. All you can do under the circumstances is to be sure your insurance (especially liability if she lights it on fire or something) on the house is paid up.

People in authoritative positions, like the doctor, would talk to you if you had POA. If she's diagnosed with Dementia, you should be able to get it.

She’s 72. She’s not on disability now, she’s on social security. She was on disability until she was the right age to get SS.

She has a lot of medical conditions. She has a lot of trouble walking and can’t easily bend over, can’t kneel, can’t stand in one place for more than a couple of minutes and has dizzy spells. She has times when she doesn’t feel well and then she’s bedridden. Her immune system is very poor so if she gets sick it just goes on for months. So she can’t take care of the house by herself.

The delusions are making her mistrust me, and I’m the only person that is available to keep the house clean or keep track of her. There isn’t anybody else that can do it, so she’s unable to care for herself and nobody else is doing it either. That’s the immediate problem. If I can’t get in there someone else has to, and I can’t get any government agency to get her help. The clock is ticking because she can’t do basic stuff for herself and needs assistance. She also falls sometimes.

I can’t get a diagnosis because the doctor doesn’t know what’s happening and I can’t get to him.

i have to sort of agree with R46 here, though I thought he was a little harsh.

OP, I don't know you, but in my actual life, whenever I encounter a person with some problem who's tried all the channels without getting anyone to agree with him/her, almost always there is something wrong with that person: they are not doing the right things or their approach to the people that they need is grating.

Ok, this is a real problem and if people are just going to tell me I’m the problem, I’m going to stop posting. Thanks for those of you who tried to suggest something helpful.

Are you the one feeding her?

Stop feeding her. When she gets week enough, get her hospitalized and get it on record she can't feed herself. That establishes incompetence. Get your POA then.

I've never done this, but I have in In-law who did, successfully.

weak, not week. Oops.

R55, No, I’m not. She buys fast food at the drive up. When I bring wholesome food she won’t eat it and it rots in the fridge. She never throws it out and I have to clean the fridge myself. There’s never anything in there but old fast food and she doesn’t finish it or throw it away.

But thanks for suggesting it.

YOU NEED TO HAVE HER DECLARED INCOMPETENT.

How many times do we need to tell you that?

Look at the article I just posted.

Call an attorney and ask if they do incompetency proceedings. This is EXTREMELY COMMON. If they say they only do abuse, keep calling attorney numbers until you find one that does INCOMPETENCY PROCEEDINGS.

WTF is wrong with you?

You can try the Grace Slick method.

Dose her tea with LSD, and when the visions start, then call the cops.

I keep being told again and again by every legal authority that her behavior doesn’t reach the standard of being an immediate threat to herself or others, so she can’t be declared incompetent.

Social Services says as long as she is “alert and oriented,” in other words, knows who and where she is, she’s not incompetent. That’s an extremely low bar almost anyone can meet. It completely ignores most forms of mental illness.

[quote] This is such EST bullshit, OP. If you're not the OP of the thread as you say above, but are posting on behalf of someone else, why are you commenting as if you were the OP? It makes no sense.

I started this thread by request. Technically, I am the OP, but the thread is for someone else (who signs his replies as OP).

See R450 here:

I will second or third the eviction. All you have to do is give her 30 days written notice. If she refuses to leave, it's your property. You have the right to toss her shit in the street and sell it from under her.

This situation will not change until YOU step up and take action.

Once her shit ends up in the street, she will start screaming and harassing you and you call the cops. She gets removed from the premises and problem solved.

You fix the place up and sell it. Or just clean it as best you can and sell it.

If the situation gets bad enough, you will do something about her.

[quote] knows who and where she is, she’s not incompetent.

Either they're bullshitting you are you're bullshitting us.

When I worked with the mentally ill, we're talking low-functioning schizophreniacs who were delusional, ALL of them knew 1. who they were and 2. where they were.

The ones with families had them declared incompetent. The ones without--who had been homeless or gone through the prison system--were not because there was no need to.

, At 72, if she knows who she is and where she is, she doesn't have Dementia or Alzheimer's.

If she hears and sees things that would be Lewy Body Dementia and everybody in the medical field around you would know it.

Urinary tract hallucinations are a different problem from Dementia.

Your relatives dumped a neurotic old woman on your lap.

Anyone can get a relative--esp one that lives on their property--dragged in for a psych evaluation. The court will order one if she won't comply.

This is either an EST or a truly stupid OP.

Sorry, not being an immediate threat is the phrase the police use. It means they can’t pick her up or have her hospitalized. That’s mostly reserved for suicidal or violent people.

Social Services has a different standard. It all boils down to what she wants to do. That’s their standard. There is no “what you want to do isn’t safe” as long as she can answer questions and sounds rational. I went through this with my mother who had dementia. She was very seriously impaired and I couldn’t get her declared incompetent. She was so impaired she could barely talk. Judges, lawyers, the whole nine yards. After she died it was found she had serious brain damage. Wasn’t good enough.

A lawyer told me once that once a person is declared incompetent that’s it. So they never want to declare anyone incompetent. I don’t know where are these people are easily getting people declared incompetent but it’s extremely difficult.

[R1] the local authorities are trying to pressure me to get a power of attorney over her

OP

Who are the local authorities you said were pressuring you to get POA? They must know something if they're telling you to get it.

[quote] Social Services just told me today that if she can follow a conversation at all (she can) they can do nothing.

OK I can't make it through this entire thread. This statement is a lie. Which makes me believe the rest of the story is also a lie.

FYI R61 - not all eviction are so easy.

It’s not a lie. They said if she can understand what they’re saying, she can refuse to cooperate and no one can make her do anything. I don’t know why that’s so hard to understand.

My state has very low taxes and when she applied for disability years ago, we were told everyone who applied for disability and was expected to live more than nine months would be denied. She was. It took over two years to be denied and appeal. When she finally saw a judge he said he couldn’t understand why she was denied the first time because she was so ill. We met many people during that time who were denied who were very ill. Even the welfare and social security people said no one gets through the system here without legal assistance.

The state just doesn’t have the money to do this stuff and so they make it very difficult to get through the system. A lot of people just quit because it’s so hard.

If you’re living in a better funded state it’s probably a lot easier.

R67, it’s pretty common for older people to do POA’s but it’s not legal to do them if the person doesn’t agree. They are voluntary only.

I kept being told by the police and social services, get her to voluntarily agree. She won’t.

R36, you sound pretty paranoid. Are you, or have you abused to relative? Did you abuse your “mom”? Why are you so worried about your reputation? Grown men and women who have nothing to hide, and have healthy self esteem, do not give one flying fuck about what others think.

I know someone who claims to have you exact story, and I know for a fact, that he physically abused the “demented” relative, as well as other people who he was close to.

A person going through this has much larger fish to fry, than to worry about their “reputation “ and “horrible lies” being spread about them.

R71, nothing you say sounds reasonable. It’s not uncommon for elderly people to go off on their closest family members. You can read about it all over the internet.

Maybe it’s fine with you to have someone calling your boss incessantly and saying you’re going to kill them, but most people would have a problem with that. It got so bad I had to relocate to protect myself.

When she finally ended up hospitalized, the first thing the hospital did was call me and say a relative that lived nearby had abused her. They hadn’t. She had been falling and was bruised. Eventually it was found she had a brain disorder and was falling for that reason. But when people are delusional you don’t know what they are going to tell people.

Physically moving hundreds of miles away was the only thing I knew how to do to protect myself. It wasn’t physically possible for me to be there attacking anyone because I was far away. But now I own a house and it isn’t as easy to pick up and move away.

[quote] it’s pretty common for older people to do POA’s but it’s not legal to do them if the person doesn’t agree. They are voluntary only.

This is bullshit.

A court will order an INVOLUNTARY psych evaluation if you petition for guardianship.

Are you sure you are not the one with the mental health problems? Your title says she was dumped on you by her family and then later say your Dad gave you the house saying you need to take care of her. If that’s the kind of thing you are telling the authorities, they’ve got both of your numbers and are placating you both. You have not mentioned going to the courts to see if you can get her evaluated. I don’t want the cops just hauling away every family member that can’t get along (or even trying to decide if they are really relitaves or not) without some higher oversight.

Depending on where you are, you may have to get an order for guardianship. I concur with r73 that an evaluation is in order but that can be a challenge when she doesn't present risk of harm to herself - and the local community isn't willing to step in. Too frequently, it's budget over what's best.

How did you wind up with her living in your property? You also have a potential legal issue in that (a) if she becomes disabled due to disease or infirmity (b) you may not be able to evict or cause her removal under applicable disability laws. You need to get guardianship so that if she needs care, you have the legal recourse to effect this. Otherwise, you're fairly screwed.

OP, it is very common for courts to appoint a guardian since more and more elderly people have no one/close relative to take care of them. How close of a relative are you? You need to call your local Council on Aging (or whatever it's called) and have them send a social worker over to evaluate her (they can tell her it's a "visit" to check in on her like they do with all elderly people and let her know what services she's entitled to as a senior citizen). Social workers are the ones who often get the ball rolling.

If you are a relative and you are telling everyone that, you may be your own biggest problem. Professionals are used to relatives making up all sorts of stories to have their loved ones committed so they can get access to their money. Sad, but true. She's your tenant, you're concerned, etc, and you can say she's a relative but you're not close (? I didn't see the previous thread so don't know all of the specifics). She is a danger to herself (and to others). They have to make a visit to evaluate or their asses are on the line if they don't check it out and she does something.

I had a very elderly friend whose neighbor called the city's aging services to have her checked out because they knew she didn't have any close relatives. They said she was acting crazy, smelled bad, etc. In their case, they wanted her apartment because it was on the other side of the building facing a quiet and pretty backyard instead of the street! They weren't successful because the social worker called me (after she visited my friend) as one of my friend's references and I set them straight.

One last comment: it could be with the proper medication, your lady might go back to normal. That is what happened with my friend, who many thought was getting dementia.

She doesn’t have any money. She does pay a few bills, but I think they are automatically deducted from her account, so she doesn’t pay late. Her sole income is Social Security and she has no savings.

Power of Attorney and having a conservatorship are two different things. I know someone that got a conservatorship over his mother because she wasn’t paying her bills. A conservatorship is granted by a court.

A Power of Attorney is done voluntarily by a person of sound mind. They fill out a form or have an attorney do it for them. If they are not of sound mind they can’t do it. These two things aren’t the same.

It may well be this is a medical condition that needs treatment and she would be ok with treatment. But she’s not telling the doctor about these symptoms, getting any treatment, the doctor won’t hear me and the social worker claims she can’t talk to the doctor without her permission. The social worker says if she tells her not to talk to me further, she can’t.

I understand seniors need to be protected from abuse. But it’s not uncommon for seniors to get dementia or other illnesses that impair their judgement and there is no path to help them without a lot of legal fees. Every government worker has their hands tied.

It would be so simple for the social worker to call her doctor and say, here are some concerning behaviors you should be informed about. But it’s impossible. This isn’t helping the senior or anybody else. There is no common sense involved in these policies.

A dementia shared is a dementia halved.

I'm sure a social worker could come to your house with a standard "Dementia" test.

It's 30 questions long. It a mixture of testing one's memory, motor skills, ability to count, etc.

None of is trivial pursuit oriented. It's all common knowledge stuff.

What's you name, age, DOB, who's the President, what town do you live in?

Write your name. Count backwards in threes, etc.

That test is used to determine level of memory loss and competency.

All these posts and replies, and what we still aren't clear about are the specific terms of OP's landlord-tenant relationship. Who owns the property? What are the landlord-tenant rules in your state?

Based on OP's changing testimony, we now gather that the addled woman is more mentally ill than demented. In most states, conservatorship for mental health is a different game than for other types of disability, including dementia. She would need a documented history of mental health issues. She would require a psych eval. And yes they are more difficult to obtain.

By cleaning her house, you're postponing the reckoning, OP. If you want people to take you seriously, you're going to have to stop helping her. Don't do anything except take pictures of the gathering piles of trash. Record all your conversations with her and save them, if you live in a one-party recording state.

If as you claim OP, people are telling you to get a POA, ask these people to actively assist you in obtaining one. Rather than calling the Area Agency on Aging, call NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, and get their take on things.

Speak to your father, and tell him that due to the woman's ongoing troubles, that you cannot keep her in the house, for whatever spurious reasons you have. You've come up with many such reasons in this thread for instance. If he owns the house, then you are probably out of luck.

Nobody can legally fault you for neglect, because she is legally a competent independent adult, and she has not been assigned to your care. The attempts you have made are sufficient to show you are concerned; but be clear there are no legal obligations that can be enforced here.

You can also speak privately to the crazy woman, and explain that you may have to evict her if she doesn't comply, due to her unspecified problems. With what she needs to comply, I'm not certain. Then you explain that you will need a POA so you can help her comply with the unspecified compliance measures. I'm sure she'll understand better than any of us on here.

You most certainly can evict her if that is an option available to you. At which point, as the police and welfare calls mount, you might be able to start forcing the issue with APS and other agencies, explaining that you tried to help, but nobody would assist you, and you had to let her go because you need legal (POA, conservatorship) and other supports to make the situation work, and can you please help me with this, because you can't have a mentally ill woman paying no rent and trashing your house? You might get a different response after the woman becomes homeless. Might.

R80, my father died years ago. I inherited the house. She’s been living in it since he was alive. I own the property. She doesn’t pay rent and never has.

The people telling me to get a POA always started with the assumption that she would gladly cooperate. She won’t. They keep saying, “just get her to willingly (fill in the blank).” She won’t willingly anything, so it’s pointless to tell me to take her to the doctor, mental hospital or anywhere else. She won’t go.

I’m not in a one party recording state. She has her issues generally, but this behavior is fairly recent and seems to worsen by the day. From what I can gather, it’s not really normal for somebody to suddenly become mentally ill at her age. It’s more likely health or dementia related.

I do agree that since I’ve called everyone I can find, and they all tell me I have no control over her behavior or actions, I shouldn’t be held accountable. I just hope I don’t end up getting sued by the neighbors or HOA when she becomes too troublesome for them to deal with.

I'm not reading through all this stuff, but just how was she dumped on you OP without your consent? Did someone just drive her over to your house and drop her off and flee? Or is it a situation where the rest of the family has just said "you take care of her or let her die"?

When she originally can’t to live here she was physically but not mentally disabled. Over the years she has physically declined to some extent, but that’s not really the issue at this time. It’s the mental issues. Looking back, she seems to have become more and more combative gradually over the last few years. But it’s the last year that she has started having outright delusions. That never happened before, and it was certainly not going on when she arrived.

The family has pretty much said the above. They’ve never been willing to assist her, but over the last week or so they told me to quit contacting them and they “can’t deal with this because it’s too stressful” and they already have enough unrelated stress in their lives. They refused to listen to the details.

I have spoken to them only rarely in general. I only called because I became alarmed and she wouldn’t cooperate. I thought she would listen to them before me, but they refuse to get involved. They won’t even discuss it with her.

They want to me to be the bad guy and they want her to think they have nothing to do with it. Legally, they can choose to just do nothing. That’s why the local authorities want me take over.

Sorry about the bad typing^^

The eviction process is more complicated than giving a tenant 30 days' notice. So eviction is mostly likely not the way to go here. You first have to file paperwork with your local court. Then you give the tenant written notice. Then you both have to go to court, and a judge hears both sides and makes a decision. Then there is another waiting period before the tenant has to move out. If they don't leave after that, the police can then finally be called to remove them. At least that's the way it is in my state.

Sounds about right. There is no way to quickly evict anyone in my state.

How is she physically and now mentally disabled and driving through fast food pickup lanes?

If she has no money (or rather, very little), how is she driving at all for that matter? Even paranoids have to get gas and oil and air in the tires and annual inspection stickers.

Is she gaslighting you?

She has social security, which is automatically deposited. She can go through drive ins because she doesn’t have to get out of the car.

She does nothing about maintaining the car other than getting gas, and I occasionally fill up her car, or did until recently. I pay for repairs, maintenance and registration.

She can shop using an electric cart at a supermarket, but not all the time. Often she is too sick. I often stop by and there’s no toilet paper, not much food or water. So I end up buying stuff for her. Sometimes she asks me to shop for her.

Recently I have not been there and I know she can’t do everything on her own.

Like the eldergays with dementia are dumped on Datalounge and start twelve, identical threads per topic?

I'll take the DL eldergays over all the barely legals any day. If DL instituted some sort of proof of age requirement (no one under 18) half this board would be gone.

If you're the landlord and the crazy lady is violating the law, OP, then you are obligated to correct the problem or evict her.

All states have eviction proceedings. It's not difficult to figure out, and most courts have landlord-tenant divisions that will provide limited assistance on getting things done.

Also, all this help you have been providing her is evidence of her lack of self-capacity, and a sympathetic judge would recognize that. You are going to have to figure out, by calling the right people, how to get a conservatorship hearing. It's not impossible, if you're serious about it.

But you're not serious, because you have been given tons of good advice, and I don't think you've followed up on any of it.

Attached are some instructions regarding how California handles mental health conservatorship.

This isn’t California. I was in California last week and called some social services people just to see if they could steer me in the right direction, because I was there and I was hoping her family would agree to take her back to California. That would be the most logical thing. But they refused.

I will read it though, because the people I spoke to in California seemed much better trained and there may be something I can use. They were also a lot more willing to get involved or be helpful.

As far as I can tell she’s not breaking any law. It’s not against the law to be mentally ill.

OP - you listed many incidents that can be documented. You report the behavior. Being able to follow a conversation is one small part of a mental health evaluation. That's why I insist you are lying.

Being denied disability on the first pass is not unusual, people often require an attorney to get disability. It may not be fair but hardly unusual.

[quote] Her doctors probably do not have the full picture but no one is allowed to tell them without her permission, which she will never give

Unless you are a licensed medical professional who is paid to provide care to her or you are her attorney, you are allowed to tell her Dr anything you want. You do not need her permission

[quote] If I’m POA I’m completely financially responsible for her and I can’t afford it.

I don't know where you got that nonsense from. But of Power of Attorney does not mean you are not responsible for her financially or any other way. You aren't responsible for her, unless your father left you the house with the provision that she be able to live there for the rest of her life. And when I mean provision, I mean that it has to say in his will that she is allowed to stay there. And even then you aren't responsible for her. You just have to let her live there.

You need to go to a lawyer and get her evicted. You need to get with social services and tell them what is happening to her. And when I say go to a lawyer, I mean that you are going to have to pay him. I have a feeling all these other lawyers you said you tried to get to take her case, you wanted them to take it on for free. They're not going to do that. But they will take it on if you have money. You are going to have to go to a family law attorney. It's going to cost you money anyway you do this, whether it's to pay a lawyer or your HOA suing you or fining you

What you really need to do tomorrow is make sure the insurance to that house is in effect and is paid. You need to make sure you have direct debit to pay that bill every month too. You have no idea what she will do to the house (burn it down) or what will happen to the house when they evict her. I'd even lower the insurance deductible until this is cleared up. Hard living (not taking care of the place) by a tenant isn't covered by most insurance policies, but fire, water damage and damage by police are covered

R94, I pay all the bills, not her. House insurance is paid until next year.

I have called Social Services numerous times and a social worker is going out to see her. That worker says if she refuses to let her in or speak to her there is nothing she can do.

I have a family law attorney on retainer and he refused to take it. His firm referred me to a firm “that specializes in the elderly,” which meant they specialized in elderly people that are being abused. They won’t take it because she’s not being abused.

I’ve said repeatedly in this thread that that I know the doctor is supposed to listen to me, I cared for two elderly parents and the doctors always listened to me. This one refuses to see me or speak to me. I can’t get past the girls at the reception desk. They repeatedly say he will not see me or speak to me and refuse to make an appointment or do anything. I’m guessing he’s worried about liability or lawsuits. He has bad online reviews and so does his practice.

I told the social worker what they’re doing, she says it’s wrong but doesn’t seem to know what can be done about it. I asked her if she would contact him, she says no. I asked her if she would tell the elderly person she needed to contact him to help document that she was being “abused” by the neighbor. She refused. The elderly person is delusional and the only way you can get any cooperation is to say you believe her.

Some poster keeps repeatedly saying I’m a liar. Why anybody would lie about this is beyond me. I cared for both parents and it was horrible. Very minimal cooperation from any authorities and with my parent with dementia, that was California where the laws are better and people are better educated and trained. Here, nobody knows what the hell they're doing and medical care in general is horrible. There’s no government budget for social services and a lot of these people are part timers.

The idea that you can simply call some authority and they will pick somebody up is ridiculous. Nobody will do that including the police. There are layers upon layers of protection for these people. If somebody is not in their right mind they are being “protected” from receiving any help.

I’m going to try contacting more lawyers next week. I can’t do it this week.

People are accusing you of lying because you keep adding details to contradict the advice given to you; you refute advice without giving specific reasons why the advice won't work in your situation; your scenarios and descriptions, if taken at face value, suggest too much naivete for a person who is nonetheless able to exist in the real world while describing the problems repeatedly on an internet forum; and who claims to have previous experience caring for elderly relatives.

Perhaps the biggest reason this sounds so ESTatarian is because you have managed, despite all your talking, to make it perfectly obscure what the specific issues are, and to describe what you would specifically like to happen to make everything better. And because your refutations are often so specific to the advice given. EG lol your comment that you had just been to California when somebody posted a link to how the conservatorship process works in Calif.

It is highly implausible that you have a family law attorney on retainer; because you have failed in nearly 100 posts to make that point clear before now. And that if you did, s/he would refuse to provide you with high-level advice, personal referrals and advocacy for your family law situation. Anything less and any reasonable person would fire the attorney and file a complaint with the Bar. If you have money to have an attorney on retainer, you have the resources to locate somebody who will help you in this matter. I thought you couldn't afford to care for the woman living in your house, but she can live there rent free but you can pay to retain an attorney? Datalounge has a GIF for that (see below).

Your local NAMI and/or Area Agency on Aging or the attorney you are making payments to can give you very specific advice, including the names of local legal and behavioral health and elder care specialists. Whatever it is you need to do, it will require court intervention. So get to work on that. One of the simplest things you could have done is tell the crowd here what county and state you live in, so they could point you to specific resources. You have nothing to lose. Nobody wants to dox you anyway, and they can't do it with only your general location.

Your hand-wringing over the woman's doctor is pointless. You can always send a registered return receipt letter to the doctor with any relevant information you want to convey. I don't really know why you think it's necessary to communicate with him, because he doesn't sound as if he wants to be involved.

I'm speaking here as a person who has years of professional experience in elder care, mental health service provision, and related topics. I have also been around the block a couple times with people in my personal life. I know it isn't easy or pleasant to do these things, but I also know that by finding the right people and being patient and persistent, you can get things done, in both cities and in under-resourced rural areas.

I can’t believe this is still going. Clearly OP is a drama queen who wants to play the victim and doesn’t have the balls to do what is needed to confront and end the drama. Every piece of advice is “I can’t”. Which is fine. But then stop bitching and accept your miserable fate.

OP, don't get power of attorney. YOu have given her a place to stay. That's it. Do nothing else you have no more obligation than any landlord. Insist her family start at the very least paying for a caregiver to take care of her. THe court can appoint a guardian ad litum and they will over see the financial outlays, etc. in cooperation with her family. You need to disengage. It seems like you are in financial trouble, and stressed out. Start seeing a doctor so you can verify your health risks. Don't get more involved or put yourself in legal jeopardy.

Tell her family you are in the process of moving out of state and they will have to step up.

I wrote a long and detailed reply but the site crashed. What R96 said: if you can afford to pay an attorney’s retainer fee you have the resources to extricate yourself from this mess. That doesn’t mean it’s not incredibly stressful. I do have sympathy as I went through a nightmarish ordeal with my elderly mother. Meanwhile here’s a link to NAMI.

😂 Why don't you return her to the original owners for a refund ?

Been there done that and I wish you the best. My ordeal lasted17 years. It is a nightmare for all involved. You mourn the loss of your loved one with each stage of the horrible disease. By the time the end comes it is a relief sad to say.

[quote]One of the simplest things you could have done is tell the crowd here what county and state you live in, so they could point you to specific resources. You have nothing to lose. Nobody wants to dox you anyway, and they can't do it with only your general location.

THANK YOU, r96! I have spent ages reading through this thread post by post, waiting for someone to point out that obvious fact. The OP keeps whining "you can't do XYZ in my state, there's no tax funding blah blah sob" and it's like MAYBE IF YOU REVEALED THE STATE AND COUNTY PPL COULD HELP YOU.

Also the lawyer on retainer thing. My family is pretty well off and if we ever need a lawyer we'll have to get out the phone book because we don't have retainer-money.

Other than that, this thread is of interest to me because I have some problem relatives who are dependent on my immediate family for financial support and housing, and I want to look into my options for keeping the drama minimized and contained. This thread has helped me to see that our family's problems could be a LOT worse but that we also need to think ahead and try to have safeguards in place to avoid ending up in OP's situation. If my mom dies before my aunt does, I will "inherit" the responsibility of keeping a roof over my aunt's head but my deadbeat alcoholic cousin keeps moving in with her and I'm trying to figure out how to stop him from squatting in any future properties we rent or buy for auntie. That branch of the fam are all in Florida so it's a bit of a shitshow. We've tried to get auntie to apply for section 8 housing but idk if she's followed through with the application and the wait is 4+ years so in the meantime we have to put her up somewhere or she'll be out on the street.

You need to see a lawyer OP who can start the process to have her deemed incapable of taking care of herself and a judge can issue an order to have her put into a nursing home. if you can afford all the expenses you're currently paying for her you can afford to hire a lawyer to get this done. She has SS income so most any nursing home will gladly take her. They'll take 99% of her SS and the rest will be paid by your state's Medicaid which the nursing home will apply for on her behalf. she'll have no out of pocket medical expenses since her medicare and the medicaid will pay for everything. And as I said previously, Medicaid will pay her Medicare premiums. Most likely she'll be given a small monthly stipend out of her SS for little incidental things she may want in the nursing home. Most states allow $50.00/mo.

OP, if you opened your door tomorrow morning and found a 2 yr. old kid on your doorstep, abandoned by some distant cousins, what would you do? You 'd make sure nothing bad happened to the kid, but you'd definitely not feel some obligation to assume parental duties long term, would you?

This 1000X agree.

[quote] It is highly implausible that you have a family law attorney on retainer; because you have failed in nearly 100 posts to make that point clear before now. And that if you did, s/he would refuse to provide you with high-level advice, personal referrals and advocacy for your family law situation. Anything less and any reasonable person would fire the attorney and file a complaint with the Bar. If you have money to have an attorney on retainer, you have the resources to locate somebody who will help you in this matter. I thought you couldn't afford to care for the woman living in your house, but she can live there rent free but you can pay to retain an attorney? Datalounge has a GIF for that (see below).

Take steps to evict her, and social services may be more helpful.

So, OP never said what state he lives in huh?