Mad Men, reconsidered

Christina Hendricks is fat, not 'curvy'.

Roger Sterling was a young, college graduate when he spend some time in pre war Paris (having an affair with dog food heiress), so he was born (ok, I know "he" is a fictional character) around 1915, making him about 45 (Slattery's age when the first season was filmed) in 1960. And his gray hair made him look quite right.

What 45 year old man has had two heart attacks and open heart surgery by age 45?

Besides, I am not talking about his backstory, which could easily have been retrofitted to fit Slattery's profile after he was cast. I am talking about the way the character himself is drawn, which was certainly not as a 45 year old. Especially in later seasons, where Roger does not seem to age in attitude or comportment.

Well, Roger did drink vodka from morning to night and eat steaks the size of his torso

Don was a man who was totally ashamed of his upbringing. He would do ANYTHING to escape that and live what was considered the American Dream. Great career, money, beautiful wife. house and 2.3 children. To get there he had to shut himself down and ignore anything that might get in the way.

His problem, and what changed his personality, was that he got it. He got the American Dream and it didn't make him happy or his life perfect. Even with all the accoutrements of success , life is messy and unpredictable and a constant struggle.

R1 I always disliked Joan

I think Don became "warmer" after the first season because: his big secret was out at the office and nothing happened to him, so he could be more "relaxed" about his past. Anna's death (was she called Anna? The limp woman who was the wife of the real Don Draper) also hit it hard and made him more "human".

Who has heart attacks before 45? Me. Not unheard of.

Show was like watching paint dry.

[quote]Show was like watching paint dry.

Nope. Straightaway came to mind the scene where the ugly Brit had hanged himself in the office - and the partners and staff needed to get the body out while an important client meeting was taking place in a glass-walled conference room.

Plenty more where that came from. Looking forward to binge-watching it all again one day, laughing aloud and (Mary) tearing up again. Maybe flaws will appear more readily, but at least I'm eager for another round.

It's funny how Joan kept getting fatter yet the show seemed unaware.

It was also a very constricted show because AMC did not have premium cable budgets. Lots of interiors, because shooting on location and redressing outdoor sets to resemble mid-century America is too expensive.

I get claustrophobic watching the show in re-runs.

Mad Men was terrific until Matt Weiner fell in love with the untalented actress playing Megan and kept forcing her on us.

Part of the reason I loved MM was because Don Draper was and is, in many ways, my father.

He was very closed off emotionally, but he would have small cracks in the facade that would show. And like my dad, a lot of it was Don's history.

The show is not perfect (the Megan character needed to be about a season or so, not three) and the last year or so was just spinning its wheels for the most part (although Peggy's ending is fantastic) but I disagree with OP on Don's arc, and Betty's for that matter. Betty's life was the life of many of the women I knew.

I will concede to OP that Roger Sterling really needed to be about 10 years older. Slattery may have had the gray hair and all, but he registered more as Don's colleague, and not Bert's. I loved Slattery and understood why he was cast, but yeah, I see that point.

[quote]Slattery may have had the gray hair and all, but he registered more as Don's colleague, and not Bert's.

The story was that Sterling-Cooper was founded by Roger's father and Bert Cooper, so Roger and Bert weren't meant to be peers. Roger was supposed to be somewhere in between Bert and Don age-wise, which is plausible, as is the notion that a guy who drank all day long and subsisted on steak and other fatty foods might have had two heart attacks at a young age. Slattery was probably a few years younger than the character, but not enough so—and too good in the role—for it to be a big problem.

Oh please, lots of men used to have heart attacks in their forties, back when real men had fatty red meat and alcohol for thee meals a day, smoked three packs a day, and there were few blood pressure medicines and no statins on the market. These guys weren't fat by today's standards, but the inside of their circulatory systems looked like a stuffed manicotti, and they had heart attacks like nothing a healthy man of today can conceive. A man with a with a proper Mad Men lifestyle would be lucky to see sixty.

Ulcers were also incredibly common in high-stress fields, as the medicines we all take today to treat the chronic heartburn brought on by all the stress, cigs, and alcohol didn't exist either. Was there ever a mention of ulcers on the show? They were so common they were almost a badge of honor for men in high-stress jobs!

The makeup job on Peggy when she became pregnant/fat was horrible. When Betty started gaining weight it looked real. Did January Jones actually put on those pounds?

R17 Uh, she did because that's when she was pregnant.

That was odd because next to them was an actual cow: Joan.

Like Meryl Streep gaining five pounds and we're supposed to start calling her Fat Meryl Streep even though she's standing beside Chrissy Metz.

Joan was voluptuous and I loved her.

r18, I'm talking about the face/neck area. Even if January Jones was pregnant in real life, that's not where she would have much of a visible change.

I loved Joan, too.

That was one of the reasons I loved this show. I knew people in real life that were so much like all the leads: Don, Betty, Joan, Peggy, Pete, and so on.

I know many people here don't care for soaps.....but when/if a particular show was good, that was what I liked about them, too. Not the over the top dumb stuff, but the feeling like you were watching theater, or watching people very much like the ones in your life.

R21 has never been near a pregnant woman.

They most certainly do gain weight in the face. A real pregnancy is not a TV pregnancy with a fake bump that represents all the heft an expectant mother puts on.

R23 I agree with your argument.....except she did wear a fat suit when she returned.

R24, she wore a fat suit to explain the weight gain from the pregnancy - women do not just drop those pounds instantly. Since Betty had already been pregnant on the show, Weiner chose to make Betty's weight gain a sign of her emotional ennui once she'd married Henry.

Personally, I like that story. It made sense for the character.

I can’t believe anyone would want to relive the whole Norwegian Catholics fiasco.

[quote]That was odd because next to them was an actual cow: Joan.

Oh, get over it, "Joan is fat" troll. No, her body type is not in vogue today, but the voluptuous bombshell thing was hot in 1960, when the show began. And as the seasons progressed into the late 60s, the character aged, and tastes changed, the show did begin to portray Joan as someone whose look had gone out of style and become something of a joke among her younger office mates.

Henry’s mother was a great character. Love her scenes with Sally.

This thread is making want to rewatch the series. It’s a little like going home.

Christina Hendrix was perfectly believable as a 1960s beauty, curvy figures were in then and big tits were considered the be-all and end-all of sexual desirability. Men would have been hot for her, not just because her figure was in style at the time, but because she projected an intense aura of sexuality. This was a woman who radiated sexiness when showing Peggy around the office for the first time, and who add paper to a mimeograph machine in a way that would make every straight man in the office sit up and stare longingly at her!

We're just not used to seeing that kind of sensuality in women who aren't thin. That's what made her seem like someone who was geneuinly from another time.

Of course Joan's figure went out of style in the 1970s, when coke-thin figures came into style. Good thing that by then, she had a large personal fortune to console her.

That's the thing about Joan, the first thing you noticed about her was her look and her sensuality, but she became a real and interesting person as the series went on. So many bombshell characters are good-looking blanks, things with so little personality that the only thing interesting about them is how men react to them. With Joan, we got to see what a hot gal does with those reactions.

I got the impression the writers hated Betty. They went out of their way to make her a bitch. Every character got their well-rounded and "I'm not such a bad guy" moments. Even in the end when she was beginning her journey of self-improvement they gave her cancer. But maybe I was expecting too much from her.

[quote]R21I'm talking about the face/neck area. Even if January Jones was pregnant in real life, that's not where she would have much of a visible change.

They gradually added prosthetics to Jones’ face and limbs...she had a whole fat suit.

r31: Betty had her few moments too. Her talk with the neighbour's kid was a great display of her deep unhappiness. She was not just a "bitch", she was a woman who was treated like a pretty, useless, object for most of her life, she felt trapped and lied to, but was never thought how to become her own person. That's why she came across as a cold mean person. I think Betty was on the most tragic characters in the whole saga.

I agree with R33 - Betty was a complicated character and definitely tragic. Her most iconic moment - shooting those pigeons with a cigarette in her mouth - was a wonderful snapshot of what it meant to be a woman in the 50s. She was a character that suffered from depression, so even at her worst I understood her. She was smart to leave Don, but it also took enormous strength. I think her darkest days were with Henry.

Hi OP! I've watched MM through numerous times and the main things I disliked were about the DD character: we saw in many tedious flashbacks the early life of DD, child of a whore, raised by people who hated him, played by a kid actor that looked nothing like him...what blue-eyed man has flashbacks as a brown eyed kid? We see the poverty Don grew up in, no love, money, attention or friends, a completely uneducated, awkward teen with no way out. We also see adult DD in the service, blowing up his commanding officer and taking off for a new life with the officer's identity. There are a couple flashbacks to him selling cars and furs, but we never see the crucial middle years of character development, how DD transitioned himself into the smooth, stylish, suave man who commands immediate attention and respect, as well as the willing pussies and envious boners of every man and woman he meets. It can't all be because he is a handsome hairy man. DD started out with such a cultural deficit in life that the end result DD is an inexplicable leap. I never understood how that farm boy doofus was supposed to have learned to imitate his way into the work and social circles he infiltrated. He was never shown meeting anyone but a hobo and whores from the brothel! The character would have made more sense growing up in a city (whorehouse, if he must), but observing differences in class and economic advantage, and deciding to make himself into something he is not. Then taking the identity of another man and creating a new life has precedent and something to build on. Have you ever read the "Ripley" books by Patricia Highsmith? I think she does a good job of showing the development of a character who experiences hits and misses as he becomes another person, falsifies his background, commits crimes, etc.

TL/DR: There were too many pointless flashbacks to Don's childhood and none for his transitional years after stealing the identity of DD.

"Christina Hendrix was perfectly believable as a 1960s beauty, curvy figures were in then and big tits were considered the be-all and end-all of sexual desirability."

Only it was a monster version. No one had a set of silicone like that in real life, real breasts are not like that in real life. If one was that big, the entire body was enormous, as in no waistline at all. Actually all of the actresses have breast augmentation in the show, though not as unrealistic.

Incidentally, this look went out in the mid-late 1960s, not the 70s.

[quote]If one was that big, the entire body was enormous, as in no waistline at all.

One of my favorite ridiculous scenes in MM, when son Bobby (#2 or3) asks dad Don about his grandfather, Don's father:

"What did he do?"

Like what was his job? Children do not talk like that. In fact, children have no interest in a adult's job.

Too much waistline was the problem.

The characterisation of Don didn't irk me particularly, and the final scene makes entirely clear that he is, indeed, a shark swimming through life picking off what he can to satisfy his appetites. What made me lose patience was the dramatic shift in the tone, from melancholic, contemplative and dreamlike, to trite, comedic, and directionless.

R37, no dice. It would be so large you wouldn't be able to see a waist line at all.

Regarding Betty... The scene that always sticks out for me was Betty's shrink calling Don to discuss her condition. It just told me that Betty was a woman who was just pretty and needed to be taken care of and that was her life and she didn't have the tools to be anything else. So when the world started changing around her and her own life started to come undone she just became bitter because she couldn't adjust.

[quote]Children do not talk like that. In fact, children have no interest in a adult's job.

I think you are alone in that one. Kids are curious creatures. They ask about everything. When you are that age they start talking about jobs in school, of course a kid would ask that question.

R42, it should have told you the all way women were treated in the 1960s - like they were children. The situation was not uncommon. Husband paid the bill, MD reported progress/problems to the husband.

Some scenes remain memorable, such as Pete's visit to his depressive lover in a psychiatric hospital, who can no longer remember Pete because her husband arranged for her electro-convulsive 'therapy'. And Peggy getting aroused by Pete's description of his perfect life, which is a Unabomber type existence living in a wood hunting animals. In fact most of my fave scenes feature Pete.

"Joan" was huge. The pretty face and the red hair helped a lot to make her sexy. Had she been a plain woman with brown hair she'd been a joke: she really looked like she couldn't get thru the door sometimes.

R43, the kid was four years old. I was eight in real life in the early sixties, and would never say "what did he do." Even if I was curious about his job, that's not the language of a child.

r42 I so wished the modeling thing would have work out for her, hell any job or hobby would do.

I really hated the timing of the divorce.

One, because they nearly wrote Betty out of the show and she was my favorite character.

Two, it was a good concept, but she didn't have a plan. What was her new husband going to do for her? Did she really want to leave her perfect home for that dark victorian monster?

Three, Henry never held her back so why didn't she do anything with her time. The writers gave her nothing, when a women of her status would at least ben involved in a PTA meeting or something.

January Jones must have pissed someone off, because they fucked up her character.

even Betty's cancer diagnosis was reported to her (second) husband instead to her.

Okay, so maybe I was confused R48. Your issue was with the dialogue in the script, not that the kid asked the question.

oh, and she WAS in the room the whole time, btw!

Yes, too plump.

[quote]Betty was a woman who was just pretty and needed to be taken care of and that was her life and she didn't have the tools to be anything else.

She's intelligent, intellectual even, enough to understand the oppression and unfairness at the heart of the system she appears to support and benefit from. We see this in her hostility to Helen Bishop, Glenn's now single mother. She bitches about her to the other women she has coffee mornings with, but makes it clear to her shrink that she envies Helen's freedom, independence and lifestyle (campaigning for Kennedy - which triggers in Betty a need to be politically active, by campaigning about a local issue - through which she meets Henry Francis).

r53 the funny thing is that I also realized that Don never cared about Betty's ambitions, she really could have done whatever as long as she was available as arm candy for occasional work dinners and had food on the table whenever he decided to come home (though Carla did that). I guess she was the only thing holding herself back.

Don and Henry gave her everything. She just didn't know know how what was next after she was married with children.

Betty was my favorite character. It was like she was trapped by societal expectations of the perfect life. The irony was that she died just as she had returned to school and was finally developing as an independent person. I was surprised to read that Weiner had planned for the character to die from cancer from the very beginning of the show.

Megan always seemed like an outsider in that world. She never had the chemistry with Don that Betty did.

R48 it was widely rumoured that Jones pissed off Matthew Weiner, and she also fell pregnant mid series and had to limit her filming.

[quote]Did she really want to leave her perfect home for that dark victorian monster?

She was very status driven. Don was a climbdown for her, economically and socially. She married him for lust reasons, and because of his enigmatic charisma. She wanted a beach house, and was unhappy that Don could not afford to get one. She was the princess, who wanted a castle, not suburban middle-class living. She married Henry as she thought he would maybe run for President.

My favorite characters were Peggy and Joan.

[quote]She's intelligent, intellectual even

But she could not get out of her own way to be anything more. I love the character of Betty, because that character helped me understand my own Grandmother who was every bit of Betty Draper who gave birth to a Sally Draper, who was my Mom. My Grandmother was a complicated a woman who only cared about taking care of my Grandfather and couldn't imagine her life outside of the box of wife and mother.

Henry was not a monster. He was rich and quite powerful (and hot!), and he ALWAYS treated Betty very nicely, even at her worst. He was much a better husband than Don. Betty's problem was Betty herself and the way she was raised, as other posters have already said.

The Meghan character should never have been promoted beyond "one of the secretaries in the office." The negative reaction to Meghan made Matthew Weiner push back against every female character. Yes, Christina Hendricks gained weight, but she was still hourglass, and there were flattering ways to dress her body still, but they made her a frump. And Betty fat. And Peggy, who had unsophisticated dress sense and kind of "missed" when she tried, still managed to be very cute when she lost the bumper bangs. She wore an adorable dress to Don's birthday party, and cute outfits in the office. She was also cute in that famous episode (name of it I forgot) where she and Don hang out all night. Her hair was dark blonde, light brown and soft. Then came Season 6. She was given a monotone dull brown hair do teased into a matronly bouffant, was frequently shoved into MUSTARD PLAID clothing (NOBODY looks good in mustard), and essentially was reconceived to look like Charlotte in "Now Voyager" pre her make-over. Meantime, Meghan was costumed as if she were some glamor diva. Whenever one went to the website and looked at Janie Bryant discussing costumes, it was ALL Meghan all the time. I think Weiner liked those actresses fine, but he didn't "make them." and he pushed back against the audience by frump-ifying their favorites, and making his own "creature" ludicrously glam with the OTT star treatment.

Henry was a good man, but he could never excite Betty sexually the way that Don did.

From what I've read Weiner didn't dislike Jones. Quite the contrary - Betty was originally intended to be a secondary character but he thought she was so good that it became one of the primary roles in the series.

January Jones was so convincing as the unlikable Betty that I was surprised to see in intervals that she is actually quite funny and friendly.

I think the audience was unfair to Megan or didn't understand the point Weiner was trying to make with this character about Don.

I think that Mad Men, like many series, lasted too long. The final season seemed like it was just killing time. Don's meditation ending seemed pointless, and Peggy rushing into the arms of the beardy guy was simply trite. Such a letdown.

R63 could you elaborate?

[quote]that famous episode (name of it I forgot) where she and Don hang out all night

The Suitcase

[quote]Don's meditation ending seemed pointless

That ending worked, as it lead the audience down a path of hoping he was seeking and obtaining some sort of spiritual redemption - only for us to be told, in the final shot of him opening his eyes having his 'lightbulb moment' that his little odyssey into hippiedom had furnished him with nothing more than material for a Coke ad. His utter shallowness and emotional coldness and detachment from humanity is made evident, which was a fitting ending to his arc for me.

This cracks me up: Betty Draper's Guide to Parenting

'I'll break your fingers!'

Joan had a good figure first season. The actress continued to get larger. Yet, Joan was sexy from beginning to end.

"Go bang your head against a wall."

If I were an actor, it would be my dream to get to play roles like Betty where I would get to be nasty like that.

Betty was a pretty, cold, rich WASP. Remind me of her despicable or criminal behavior (within the context of that time). There were worse characters in the story.

I never really bought the Pete / Peggy relationship. We had almost no information about why they felt so attracted to each other.

I loved Don, so I am an unabashed fan of the show. I still rooted for him till the end. Don and Sally's relationship was my favorite because it reminded me so much of me and my father, but I also loved Peggy and Don. That being said, the characters were so richly drawn - even the most despicable ones - that I really enjoyed the hell out of most of the story arcs. Peter was such a slime but I loved that character - some of the Peter episodes, like Signal 30, are my absolute favorite. Ken Cosgrove! In Accounts! was also memorable in that episode, loved his VO in the final moments. Ken's season six transformation was fun to watch, but in some ways, to see a guy like Cosgrove grow that bitter, it said everything about the advertising business.

I've watched the series at least half a dozen times, but this thread also has me considering another rewatch. It's certainly going to be better than Ozark. I agree that the series probably went a season too long, but there were still some good moments in the final season.

The ending was more complicated for Don than him simply appropriating yoga for Coke. He had a series of breakthroughs at that retreat - reaching out to comfort someone else in pain, confessing his shame to Peggy, and going without alcohol for days. After his disaster of a life, he was never going to be whole. but he made peace with that rather than running away. Interestingly, he always ran to California to flee from his life. The last time, he accepted who he was.

i liked how they portrayed Pete: a petty, oily, petulant little man, BUT he was maybe the only character who was not a racist.

"even Betty's cancer diagnosis was reported to her (second) husband instead to her. "

That was common at the time, if a doctor discovered that a person was suffering from terminal cancer they'd tell the family but not the patient. The justification was that nothing could be done, so the dying patient might as well live their last days in peace. This came to an end after the "Mad Men" era, when federal laws started mandating that all patients be fully informed of their condition.

And I have no idea if this was done for every patient or if these doctors would tell a man's wife but not the man, or if they'd just withhold diagnoses from women or children. But I know it happened some times.

I'm sure it was intentional, but Don and Megan were never really convincing as a couple. Even Betty referred to her as "that poor girl". You know you're in a bad place when even Betty feels sorry for you.

Ah, R78, Meghan's not the kind of girl who worries about another divorce.

R77 Remember they did the same thing to Anna---family hid her diagnosis from her.

I thought it was the perfect show until Megan came along. Weiner and his obsession with Jessica Pare was just plain unfortunate. If they wanted Megan to last for the remainder of the show then they should have brought on a stronger actress.

January Jones is one of the WORST actresses I have ever seen but she was great as Betty. It was glaringly obvious that she was the weakest link in the cast but then Pare showed up. Even Kiernan Shipka, who got worse as she got older, could act circles around Pare.

Call me crazy, but I loved Megan.

R76 I found Pete’s lack of racism an interesting trait given his otherwise deplorable character.

I don't understand you guys because I thought Henry treated Betty like shit, worse than Don (not talking about the cheating).

Have read in numerous places MM fans disliked Megan because they were upset that Betty was no longer coupled with Don, they were "so beautiful together." I might have felt that way if I was 14 years old.

"Betty was a pretty, cold, rich WASP."

No, not rich. In fact, I doubt my parents would have socialized with hers. It's a social standing and pedigree thing, money doesn't get you there alone.

i honestly can't remember one time when henry treated betty "like shit". Examples?

Yes, Christina Hendricks was much slimmer in season one, but gained considerably as the series wore on.

[quote] Ulcers were also incredibly common in high-stress fields, as the medicines we all take today to treat the chronic heartburn brought on by all the stress, cigs, and alcohol didn't exist either. Was there ever a mention of ulcers on the show? They were so common they were almost a badge of honor for men in high-stress jobs!

R16, Roger had ulcer. It was referred to a lot (he would drink his vodka with milk because of it) and he said, after he had the heart attack, he thought the ulcer would kill him, not his heart.

I always get annoyed at fans who zero in on one character and assume that the writer has some kind of actor obsession instead of looking deeper into what that character represents. Mad Men was one of the most layered shows ever on television. That's why I recommend a second or third viewing. In many cases you have study what the characters aren't saying and doing to truly get what's going on. But also, you have to fill in a lot of the blanks yourself. There is no desire to tell the audience every little detail with this show.

I've found that people fall into two camps with this show. Either it's the best thing that ever happened to television or it's a soap opera with a bunch of nostalgia porn thrown in to get people talking about how fucked up the 60s really were.

I loved the show but if they had not warmed Don up a little, they would have lost their audience.

Joan was not huge but it is true, most women were not that big. On the other hand it would not have turned guys off.

Big women still don't turn off the majority of the worlds men, and even the majority of American men.

This was really the best series ever to air on American television.

Some people did not get the show at all, it makes me think less of them.

Joan's size or what you think of her size is being viewed through a modern lens. Just let it go.

Frau alert at R94.

[quote]is being viewed through a modern lens.

Duh. Everything is being viewed through a modern edge on this thread. What you really want to say is: I'm fat so everyone shut up.

I guess we should just ignore the children and continue the discussion.

[quote]I found Pete’s lack of racism an interesting trait given his otherwise deplorable character.

Was Pete deplorable or just ambitious? I always pictured Pete as a young version of Larry Tate. Was Don racist? He seemed to be fine with Dawn as his Admin.

Moo...

Pete raped that German nanny.

what a rack!

But there was a lot of belly, hip, thigh to go along with it.

Yes he did r99. He was a fuckng creep

Don was not a racist in the sense of white suprematist: he was an opportunistic racist. I remember when he made an anti-semite joke with a client: was he really anti-jew or he just wanted to win the client? Pete, OTOH, was in that regard a real kid of the 60s: politically not racist. And i seem to remember his wife Trudy was too.

Don and Pete were both disgusted by Roger’s blackface routine at the Kentucky Derby party. Cooper seemed to really enjoy it.

Here are my thoughts on the their ages when the show premiered.

I believe Don was probably 33/34ish. Roger was probably 10 years older and Pete was probably ten years younger. Do you think I'm close?

Don was very attracted to Jewish women.

He wasn’t a racist; merely ignorant of its effects because of straight white male privilege.

Hey I was a kid and women were not as big as Joan. If they were that big, they would be worried about their weight. As a kid, I was simply not used to women being that big. The actress is gorgeous but women back then were not that pretty and not that big.

The only good thing about Megan was having Julia Ormond (who played her mother) on my TV.

I think the audience understood the point perfectly but Meghan was a terrible character and didn't need that much story to make the freaking point. Plus she was miscast - Pare looks older than her age, not like the new fresh young new wave 1960s era second wife. And she couldn't act. When she was supposed to be sexy, she was awkward. She also had no idea what subtext meant and had negative charisma with Jon Hamm.

Megan was exactly what Don would have gravitated towards. The character was swept off her feet and in way over her head and had no clue what she had really married. The actress played that perfectly.

If you watch women in movies and media from the late sixties. Paré is as archetypal as January Jones was for women of the late fifties, early sixties. He married Donna Reed, then followed up with Katherine Ross.

Damn R111. You nailed it.

Good post r111

R109, I had the impression that at the end of the series they were making up Jessica Pare to look a tad older and worn, as she had come to realize both that marrying Don was a huge mistake and that her acting career was going nowhere.

Not just Katherine Ross, but the European beauties of the New Wave, like Anouk Aimee. I always saw Weiner as portraying Don Draper as sort of the perfect ad man--with a gut intuition about the zeitgeist and a love and need for products. He wants and needs the ever-changing American dream as much as any customer. His wives exemplify the idea of beauty of an era--so Betty is like Grace Kelly; Megan's like Diana Rigg. It's hinted in the last episode that Mrs. Draper no. 3 is likely to be the New Age natural earth-mother type who takes his hand when he's in despair--played by Helen Slater.

R109--Definitely. Megan, unlike Betty, gets to do what she wants, but she's not actually a good actress. Soaps were as good as it was going to get for her and she gave that up. She's bitter at the end.

I watched the end scene of MM with a friend who was my age and her 25 year old son. She and I broke out laughing with me also exclaiming, "OF COURSE!" Her son just said "I don't get it." We proceeded to sing "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing" in it's entirety while he stared at us. The he said , "Oh, I guess that was a real ad".

I appreciated that MW threw a cultural bone to our undesirable demographic without pandering or explaining to the younglings.

I never minded Megan. I thought she was a typical mod looking beauty and had a modern personality. Not sure why she was named Megan though. I was never a huge fan of Joan to be honest. Interesting how John Slattery tends to be typecast into similar characters. I'm surprised Drapers character didn't wind up committing suicide.

The people who are going on and on about Joan being fat have either lived in LA too long or are binge and purge queens.

R117 here. I'm sorry how disjointed my comment is, I'm very sleep deprived.

[quote] She also had no idea what subtext meant and had negative charisma with Jon Hamm.

The poor sow drove Jon to drink.

R118 I agree with you. I wasn't always the biggest fan of Joan, but she was a typical curvaceous bombshell of the early 1960s. While that look fell out of favor in terms of media portrayal by the 1970s,Joan would still be considered very attractive by most "normal " people even today.

"I always saw Weiner as portraying Don Draper as sort of the perfect ad man--with a gut intuition about the zeitgeist and a love and need for products. He wants and needs the ever-changing American dream as much as any customer"

I guess I saw him as a hollow man, an empty shell he was always trying to fill with sex, alcohol, money, products, a Mr. Perfect image, and whatever is on trend. He didn't really exist, so he was trying to make himself into a person by grabbing whatever was fashionable, or just available.

Perhaps he's a sort of metaphor for the empty yearning gulf of consumerism, or perhaps I should have gotten more sleep.

Don Draper is a creation. He is imaginary. I'm not even sure if Don Draper knows who Don Draper is. Which is why he was always miserable. Don was going to keep floating through life, probably going through a few more wives until he finally put a gun to his head or just made the decision to forever go through the motions.

I know these are all fictional character, but I would love know how Sally turned out.

It would have been a miracle for Sally not to have grown up untouched by all that. She either ends up a drunk herself, or bitter and massively straight-laced and repressed.

[quote]It's a very sudden character shift. People do not change this late in life, in my view, so what explains it?

Weiner is a hack. His novel is an abomination and his episodes of The Sopranos were very cheesy.

[quote] Was Don racist? He seemed to be fine with Dawn as his Admin.

I think he was casually racist. He makes a joke when her character is first introduced and referred to her as "Darkest before the Dawn."

r31 Weiner had a crush on January Jones and then ended up punishing her for it. Then his crush was the awful Megan and we were punished for that.

I think the whole backstory and "Don Draper is not really Don Draper" could have been dropped before filming began. It wasn't needed and detracted from the real story.

I like the office scenes the best. Don, Roger, Bert, Peggy, Joan, Pete, Ken were all the most interesting scenes.

What did the actress playing Carla do to piss off Matt Weiner? She was dropped from the show and forgotten. She could have played "Alice" to Don Draper's "Mike Brady".

And before Megan came along, Weiner was pushing his ugly son on the audience. We'd be watching a home scene and then all of a sudden the fat son was wedged into it like he was part of the family.

"I would love know how Sally turned out. "

I like to think she rebelled against her uptight WASPy upbringing big-time. Found that caring for her mother opened her eyes to the shallowness and inhumanity of her cushy existence, went to college late and became a bisexual radical anti-war feminist, had some wild years and settled down as a professor of political science in Oregon or Vermont. Retired now and living comfortably on her inheritance, because there's no way in hell Don Draper lived to a ripe old age. He probably died of a cocaine-induced heart attack in the 80s.

Roger made that joke, R126, and Roger was a racist.

Don Draper is one of a very short list of fictional characters that I wanted to be fucked by.

I used to say I wanted to be in the middle of a Don Draper/Sawyer (from Lost) sandwich

I would have loved to be a Don Draper/Ken Cosgrove sandwich, with Pete, Stan Rizzo and Roger Sterling waiting their turns.

I knew a "Roger" once, R130, I briefly worked for him.

It's not that he was so much a racist, as a person who believed that the vast bulk of humanity was inferior to him. He seemed to feel just as much contempt for white men who lacked his wealth, looks, and background, as he did people of color, women, gays, and well, everyone else who didn't have his advantages. The term "Racist" just doesn't describe the full range of his evil.

That is an interesting perspective, R134, and one I hadn't given much thought to. Though even Roger himself seems somewhat aware of this -- like when he says, "I've behaved my whole life like I built a company, but I inherited it."

Thank you for adding another layer to this show for me! This is one of the reasons I love DL.

Roger would be trans in 2018.

R128 "Don not really being Don Draper" forced January Jones to actually show up at work. She did her best acting during the scenes in which Betty discovered Don's true identity. It was a crucial part to the story.

Rachel Menken was my favorite.

Rachel Mencken, Trudy, and Joan were my favorite characters.

Pete was a guilty pleasure.

If I was female then I probably wouldn't have liked Joan, she could be a real superior acting snot. My favorite scene was when Roger had a heart attack and she & Burt go into the office alone and he tells her not to waste her youth on old men.

[quote]she really looked like she couldn't get thru the door sometimes.

Haha

Trudy is the type of woman Betty should have paid attention to, because Trudy did the divorce/separation like a boss. She understood that men of Pete's caliber cheat, but you leave that shit in the city. She always looked good and took to the city/suburbs in stride. She was alway's practical.

I wish Roger's second wife played Meghan's character. Talk about gorgeous. I could have stomached bad acting just to look at her amazing face. Yes, I am 100% a gay man, but damn was she something.

I have asked this question here before but what does everyone think about the way the reveal was handled where Betty learns about Don's secret? For me, it came out of nowhere, it all unraveled so fast that, beyond that single episode, it lost its dramatic punch. And it seemed like the show struggled afterwards to find a way to keep January Jones on the canvas. Her storyline was almost like its own separate show after Don and Betty divorced.

I will say that the Betty's ending affected me far more than anything else about the final season.

[quote]Three, Henry never held her back so why didn't she do anything with her time. The writers gave her nothing, when a women of her status would at least ben involved in a PTA meeting or something.

She did, she went to school.

I have said it before, but the overall theme of the show is lack of parental love and what that does to people.

Of course Roger is the only person who was loved— even adored— by his mother. And the show takes pains to examine this.

Alison Brie stole every scene she was in.

That little Jewess in ONE MILLION PERCENT ENTERTAINMENT.

I know I’m supposed to love Peggy, but she was always such a humorless, oddly smug little drone.

Her whole career was basically an accident, but she never tired of lecturing others about how they weren’t working hard enough.

R93 is the driveling idiot who used to snipe at everyone who disagreed with him on the Mad Men threads, "You don't even understand the show!"

Again dipshit, the show was not that complex.

r143 Betty's death affected me the most as well. As a gay man, I understand the frustration that one can feel for following the rules and getting nothing out of it. Betty's life reminds me of my time in the closet. I watched my peers (the Don Drapers) do as they pleased following a different set of standards, but still accepted in society. They got to date in middle school and high school, were encouraged to have sex, and had t people idolize them for their faults - hell, it makes a great water cooler story on Mondays! Us Betty's had sit back smile and pretend that everything was alright. It wasn't. Despite my relative comfort in a Middle Class American family, I was hurting inside, Betty always hurting.

So when Betty finally, finally, starts becoming her own person she is struck down with cancer. It's so similar to many AIDs stories. The simmering rage and depression from the closet, or in Betty's case the American Dream. Wanting freedom to live your life but getting caught by nature's terrible sense of justice.

Took me awhile to understand why she was my favorite character, but I can project a lot of the feelings I have about the world on to her character's journey. May sound crazy, but that's how I felt. Plus, I loved her ear 60's outfits.

r147 I wonder if it was because of the actress who played Peggy. She was hard to look at and annoying.

People think Betty was such a bitch but at the beginning of the series she is so smitten with Don she tells him she just waits every day for him to come home and be in bed with her. The time she wore a cute bikini and Don slut shamed her for it. She smelled other women on him and also her finding out her psychologist was reporting everything to Don.

I know my mother always loved me but she could be cold like Betty was to her kids (mainly Sally).

Back in the 60's and 70's are parents were not our pals. Dad came home, read the newspaper and watched tv. They did not play with us, we entertained ourselves. I do remember in the summer when our family would go camping (we had a travel trailer) and on the nights dad stayed in town it was so much fun because mom would play cards and board games with us. That was a treat.

You make a lot of sense, R149.

R150, I think you are right. I’ve tried to mentally recast the role of Peggy, and wonder what might have been.

This is the DL and no one has mentioned Sal? What a great character he was - his departure was so abrupt and never fully explained.

Sal got canned from his job so I guess that's why they didn't show him any more because he didn't have ties to the office. But I always wondered what happened to his wife, did he stay married. I remember him acting out the song from Bye Bye Birdie and his wife looking at him oddly and wondering if she caught on he was gay.

Betty’s death? Betty did not die.

I had to google John Slattery to know who you were talking about. No, Jon was the perfect Don Draper, and I enjoyed the show, but never wanted to see another show that celebrated that that type of character again. The Knick seemed to be doing that, but it got canceled by the third season. not that I wouldn't like to see it.

Weiner was being petty doing the Fat Betty storyline. He had a mad crush on her and when she ticked him off it was payback.

Of course Sal's wife caught on that her husband was gay, R155. That's why she was looking so horrified. Helen Keller would have been able to see that Sal was gay during that number.

Personally, I think one of the great things about Mad Men is the questions that never got answered or the characters that just faded away and we never saw them again. I understand why people got hung up on Sal, but the truth is he was exposed by a higher up in the company and that was it for him. Same for the character of Carla. Sometimes people are just gone and you don't find out why.

People who say this show was boring must not have been watching closely. There were some interesting surprises like when the dingbat secretary ran over the guy's foot with the lawnmower and Joan sleeping with the nasty guy in order to become partner.

January Jones was nearly cast as Peggy. The thought of her trying to act out those storylines makes me laugh. Elisabeth Moss seems like a smug bitch in real life but she's talented. Peggy was just an awful person. I never got the hype. I thought the Pete actor was underrated. He sold all of his ridiculous lines and antics like a pro.

Why was January Jones so incredibly good as Betty, and so terrible in every other role I've seen her accept?

Why did she look heartbreakingly beautiful on "Mad Men", while she looks ordinary everywhere else?

I think JJ has fine hair, I have noticed in public appearances her hair can look lank

So, have we figured out who is the father of January Jones’ child?

I always thought Pete was hot.

Hendricks is fat by '60s standards and by '10s standards (no matter how inspiring fraus find her).

gee let it go you OCD twat

OCD fat at R168.

Hendricks' weight gain is relevant. Her size worked when she was cast, but when she started to resemble Delta Burke, then that didn't fit the character. So it changed the dynamic, but the show didn't address it. It caused tension.

Not one mention of Bob Benson?? The super cute maybe gay guy with the short shorts?? He was adorable!

Alison Brie would have been interesting as Peggy.

Bob Benson was definitely gay. You must have missed some episides. Pete (once again) gets outmaneuvered by someone with a hidden identity, but this time with a comic twist.

I loved it.

If mm had been on HBO instead of AMC chances are they would have shown Don Drapers cock and balls at some point and Joan's huge tits.

They're just saggy, flabsacks without construction.

I loved Peggy, though the first season and a half of her story was a bit hard to take at times. I identified with her the most, personally.

I knew a Roger too. I slept with him a few times. Short and fucking hot as hell like John Slattery. But a few drinks later all his racist BS would come out. One of those people who could have been or done anything and ended up blaming everyone else for his shortcomings.

I wish Bob Benson would have somehow gotten Pete. Just for one night, anyway. IRL Pete would have taken advantage of the situation.

The Wire and Mad Men are my two favorites. I’m considering rewatching both, because I was drinking pretty heavily when I decided to binge watch them both. However, it also speaks to how good both shows are, because I couldn’t commit to doing anything while drinking, other than going to work.

I wish that the story line regarding Don’s brother had been developed more. That could have been done better.

As far as Joan’s weight is concerned, she obviously got bigger, but most straight men still would have fucked her. The only people who make a big deal about weight are women, or gay men. I can tell you right now, that I don’t know of one straight man who would have turned Joan down. She had a very pretty face, and she was still curvaceous and sexy as fuck. Straight men will fuck anything, but Joan would have not been considered as someone a straight man fucked because he was really drunk. Because of her face and curves, she’d be considered a huge score. Men don’t mind a little extra, as long as it’s in all the right places.

[quote]s far as Joan’s weight is concerned, she obviously got bigger, but most straight men still would have fucked her.

That's a low bar.

Jon Hamm also got bigger at one point, I don't see anyone complaining. His body was sadly correct for the time, good in a suit but a mess when the shirt comes off. I respect the show for not filling it with gorgeous people Betty (not JJ) and Bob Benson aside.

[quote]Jon Hamm also got bigger at one point

Hmm. When was that?

Mad Men and the West Wing are just pick it up anywhere type of show for me, both brilliant in their own ways. Props to Elisabeth Moss for snagging roles on such strong shows. The Handmaid's Tale has also been a fun ride.

R179, that Tess chick on the cover of Cosmo, who we are discussing in another thread, is a low bar. Tess is 5’2, and has a HUGE gut. Joan, on the other hand, had a huge ass and big tits, with a smaller waist, and was tall. It worked.

There’s a big difference between obese, and hour glass figure. A natural hour glass figure, not aKim Kardashian fake hour glass figure.

Joan looked fantastic in the beginning of the show.

Straight men will fuck any woman. No standards.

No, Pare was horse-faced and not archtypical in the least of the 70's. She's not a Linda Harrison or Katherine Ross. She was older looking, not hair blowing in the breeze, subtle tan. She looked like a drag queen and she didn't "play" anything perfectly. She's awful.

You were clearly watching a different show R185

Face it. Other than Betty most of Don's conquests. were not really that great looking. Bobbie was but she was also older and worse for wear.

Elisabeth Reaser? Holy shit.

Abigail Spencer?

Rosemarie Dewitt?

These are not great beauties.

"as far as Joan’s weight is concerned, she obviously got bigger, but most straight men still would have fucked her."

"That's a low bar. "

Oh give it a fucking rest! She was playing someone who spent her life getting straight men to want her in real life, not modelling fashion or begging for the approval of old queens. She was entirely believable as someone that real straight men of the era would have considered hot stuff, but not just because of her curves. She wasn't young or slim, but Hendricks projected sexiness as few actresses could.

As others have said, R187, straight men aren't that picky.

Particularly when they're hollow men filled who are desperately trying to fill their inner emptiness, like Don Draper.

F&F R188. Homophobia.

Nice of you put down that Pumpkin Spice Frappuccino and pack of donuts long enough to post some bigotry.

How is it "homophobia" to suggest that straight women are more concerned with attracting straight men than impressing gay men?

....

Watching it again OP.

[quote]I understand why people got hung up on Sal, but the truth is he was exposed by a higher up in the company and that was it for him.

It wasn't a higher up in Sterling Cooper, it was the vile Lee Garner Jr, son of the owner of Lucky Strike, the firm's biggest client. Lee being a nasty closet case was great writing, as the character made a big show of harassing Joan in front of other men. Lee hit on Sal and when Sal knocked him back, Lee got him sacked.

His wife knew everything when Sal did his dance

Betty not enjoying a picnic with the kids

That was good acting from Sal's wife. Her face just changed. I felt so bad for her.

For R187 - Rachel Mencken, while not a "great beauty", was attractive, intelligent and elegant. The school teacher was totally cute. I don't think Don was looking for mere pulchritude. There had to be something else going on there for him to notice.

[quote]Would you like to place a wager on that [R434],435?

Oh, sure, I'll bet your anonymous ass a million dollars.

Oops, wrong thread, obv.

In the first season Roger told Joan she glided around the office like a magnificent ship. Her size was the source of whatever power she had from the beginning.

I remember my dad and his buddies talking about women when I was a kid in the 70s, and Joan was the kind of woman that drove them wild. Granted, my dad's buddies seemed to go for cheap blondes, but they liked big tits and asses. It was also how the woman dressed and how she carried herself.

No one wants an obese cow, but the Kardashian types of today are so unnaturally enhanced. No one but no one has enormous knockers, a tiny Scarlett waist and a huge ass.

I think casting purposedly brought on women who were not 'great beauties' just so people could compare them to 'perfect' Betty. Though, I think Maggie Siff (Rachel) was quite beautiful in her own way. And speaking of weight, not only did Hamm start to get bigger but he also started to look haggard - which fit the character anyway. The season after the divorce, he just looked completely different.

That is what happens to alcoholics, R203.

r203 thank you! I made the weight gain comment up thread but couldn't remember exactly when it started for Ham, but his pants were getting a lot wider. I think everyone looked fine at the show's conclusion. No drastic changes. I noticed Joan's weight gain but her character had a baby and would have been pushing mid-late 30s at the show's conclusion, a girl like her was bound to put on pounds. Still thank the actress looked great throughout the show.

Tom and Lorenzo pointed out that Liz Taylor was the inspiration for a lot of Joan's late '60s style. Liz is also a great example of a woman who was thought beautiful even after she'd put on weight. Or, in straight-guy parlance, "the more cushion, the better pushin." A lot of them like the fluff and they really, really like the boobs. Joan also had good legs and a pretty face, so she really did have the whole package for a lot of straight guys--a la Sophia Loren, Jane Mansfield. As she aged and gained weight, she did, in fact, start to have some issues attracting men. The younger men, for the most part, weren't interested in her, while some real sleazebags were. She wasn't actually landing the rich guys, whereas Betty just moved from one guy to the next with three kids in tow. The whole class aspect of looks was handled pretty accurately I thought. Roger fucked Joan, but he never tried real hard to marry her. His wives were all thinner and more fashionable

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Rich Sommer resembles a jolly lesbian who runs an IT dept

[quote]Bob Benson was definitely gay

Remember when Bob Benson proposed to Joan, they made it obvious he was gay.

I also was going to say Alison Brie would have made an interesting Peggy

They made it doubly obvious when he (Bob) bailed one of his gay friends out of the police station and when he propositioned Pete by putting his hand on his knee and gazing longingly at him and when he and Joan developed their fag+hag shopping based friendship. And when he was revealed to have been a grifter on a cruise ship. it was abundantly, unambiguously obvious that Benson was gay.

Only today could Joan not be considered fat. She would've been considered fat in the 1960s.

[quote]Straight men will fuck any woman. No standards.

Not true. Most straight men when they do settle down prefer a Jennifer Aniston type with a nice figure, girl next door look. You don't usually marry the Marilyn. But the straight men I know are pretty picky.

[quote]But the straight men I know are pretty picky.

How many husbands have Kim Davis had? Just look at any Florida news report. All straight men think about is sex. I've never heard of a picky straight man. Most can't afford to be.

r215 I grew up in an upper middle class WASP environment, the men I know wouldn't give a Kim Davis type the time of day. I live in an upscale neighborhood, you don't even see overweight women here they take good care of themselves. So you are not comparing apples to apples.

[quote][R215] I grew up in an upper middle class WASP environment, the men I know wouldn't give a Kim Davis type the time of day. I live in an upscale neighborhood, you don't even see overweight women here they take good care of themselves. So you are not comparing apples to apples.

Oh, okay. But aside of Greenwich most straight men have huge sex drives and an undersupply of hot women.

Anyway, yes, Christina Hendricks is fat.

Jones had on a fat suit and fat makeup. Anyone should know that much.

Hendrix is not that fat now, I don't remember her ever being that fat.

I went to a Playboy restaurant once. Our waitress was a slender midwestern girl. Very well scrubbed.

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Slight double chin ^ and is that a caftan?

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[quote]Not true. Most straight men when they do settle down prefer a Jennifer Aniston type with a nice figure, girl next door look. You don't usually marry the Marilyn. But the straight men I know are pretty picky.

This is total DL bullshit spouted by gay men who have zero idea about what straight men want. Go to any mall in America (accept maybe in LA). Go to any town with a military presence. Trust me, big girls are getting all the cock they can handle. And not just from fuggos. They are getting good looking, fit cock. The only people who are hung up on this bullshit are the dumbs dumbs on this thread.

Alison Brie would have made a horrible Peggy. There was something dark and melancholy about that charcter for basically the entire run and Alison and her mannerisms and voice just wouldn’t have worked in that role. She was perfect as Trudy.

The only person miscast in their role was Jessica Pare. She made JJ look like Meryl Streep.

[quote]Go to any town with a military presence. Trust me, big girls are getting all the cock they can handle.

R224 is inspired by Real Women (tm) like Tess Holliday and Chrissy Metz.

My DH *wheeze* loves a *burp* little junk *rustles wrapper* in the trunk!

Rich Sommer is kinda cute.

[quote] The only people who are hung up on this bullshit are the dumbs dumbs on this thread.

Because you have a lot of chubby, bitchy gays at the DL who are self loathing. And skinny, bulimic ones who hate anyone who is ten pounds over their goal weight.

'The way you gays fat-shame sometimes I don't know why we're so tolerant of ya'll.'

R228 = lesbo

R231 = fat pearl clutcher

"Joan is fat" troll, you are a bore. Fine, she's overweight, so what? She's also someone whom her straight male colleagues would have wanted to fuck in the early 1960s and whom many straight male viewers wanted to fuck when the show premiered. Do I find that inspiring? Not particularly—I don't look remotely similar to Christina Hendricks/Joan, bodywise or any other way, and can only laugh imagining myself trying to look like her. I merely find that the role was appropriately cast and styled. The fact that some gay men do not (or at least one OCD gay man does not) find CH/Joan's body type appealing is entirely irrelevant.

Which DL people would not mind seeing Don Draper’s Cock and Balls?

' She's curvy in all the right places. You're not straight men, so you couldn't possibly begin to understand that straight men find her body type very attractive. Stick to what you know about, ok, boys!'

E

FUCKING

NOUGH

about Joan's weight.

You obsessive morons ruined what could have been a great thread.

'You gays would have cum, er, egg, on your face if you knew that all she eats are salads for meals and munches on raw carrots and broccoli as snacks. Whether or not she is carrying a few extra pounds is not the point. She is a beautiful woman on the inside and out, whether she's a size 1 or a size 8, and is an inspiration for many women who are trying to shed those couple of extra pesky pounds. She loves herself. She loves and is loved. Love is food for the soul.'

She's corseted into foundation garments. Her waist is manufactured, Her breasts are engineered into a pleasant shape and it takes a half an hour to get into and out of her clothing.

Not sexy in reality.

WILL YOU ALL SHUT UP ABOUT JOAN'S WEIGHT! YOU'RE A BUNCH OF FUCKING BORES AND YOU'RE REPEATING YOURSELVES, ESPECIALLY THE GUY WHO'S SAID "JOAN IS FAT" ABOUT 300 TIMES.

'This really needs to stop asap. Your embarrassing yourselves with these degrading remarks. And as a woman, I find them personally offensive. I happen to be one of your biggest champions. I have always tolerated and accepted you, but it's threads like this that make me wonder sometimes. Why am I accepting you just so that you can belittle women.'

No one has seriously said anything resembling the witless "parody" (of nothing) posts at r235 or r240. We've simply pointed out that the obsessive "Joan is fat" observations are not interesting and have no bearing on the quality of the show. Zzzzzzzzzz.

Anyway, speaking of Joan, another moment during which it became obvious that Bob Benson was gay is when he proposed to her a marriage of convenience to benefit her and her kid financially and help him pass himself off as a straight family man to his new bosses in Detroit.

[quote]We've simply pointed out that the obsessive "Joan is fat" observations are not interesting and have no bearing on the quality of the show. Zzzzzzzzzz.

"We?"

At least one other poster besides me has pointed out that you are an obsessive bore, so yeah, that would constitute a "we."

She's overweight and big. Let's accept it and move on.

R234 Yes, most of us would like to see Don Draper's cock.

A important distinction, though.....I think Hamm is very sexy (in a weird way) as Don. I don't know that I find him AS sexy when I see him elsewhere.

[quote].I think Hamm is very sexy (in a weird way) as Don. I don't know that I find him AS sexy when I see him elsewhere.

I'd agree with that, r245. Obviously, Hamm is a handsome guy but in a contemporary role or just walking around as himself, he often seems a little goofy. There's something about the period wardrobe and style, plus the tortured, fucked-up nature of the character, that makes Don Draper sexier than Jon Hamm. In fact, during the run of the series, I tried to avoid reading interviews with Hamm or seeing him in other role because I felt it might kind of ruin Mad Men/Don Draper for me.

Just joined. Have we discussed how Joan was kinda fat? Rubenesque? Zaftig?

Kaftanesque

"There's something about the period wardrobe and style, plus the tortured, fucked-up nature of the character, that makes Don Draper sexier than Jon Hamm."

That's what happens when you cast a role really well, the actor seems much more than they are. More talented, even better looking!

As Don Draper, Hamm seemed desperately attractive as well as talented, even though there doesn't seem to be much to him outside this show. Same for January Jones, who as I said above, is both effective and beautiful on this show, and untalented and ordinary-looking outside it. And Hendricks, who is a fascinatingly sensual diva on the show, and a middle-aged fat woman outside it. The casting office did a superb job, even most of the minor roles are played by the best possible actor.

The show was well cast--even Jessica Pare would have been fine if her role had been the original planned length (She wasn't supposed to be there multiple seasons). For most of the actors, it's the best show/role they're ever going to do. So far, Elisabeth Moss and Alison Brie are the exceptions. Feel like Vincent Kartheiser could be, but he's just not that interested in a big career. Definitely a peak for Hendricks, Jones and Hamm.

Funny thing is, several of the roles were written differently--Hamm's character wasn't supposed to be good-looking, but more nebbishly (dare I say, more like Matt Weiner?). Joan was supposed to be unsexy over-the-hill and bitter. Interestingly, Weiner kept the bitter, over-the-hill thing but blended it with the sexy.

Mad Men just had a lot of people getting it right--including Weiner--something they may not do again. Well, except for Bobbies 1-4.

I thought Joan and Peggy's parallel lives were very interesting.

Joan had some power at the end, but in the big scheme of things, Joan's power was with the men, and when the show started, she had power and Peggy didn't.....but that changed.

Good one, R129. I'm exactly the same age as Sally, grew up in Westchester County with an NYC ad man father too.

When Trump announced he was running for president in 2015, I imagined Jon Hamm running as Don Draper - I mean dressed as Don Draper, talking in advertising slogans. That's how ridiculous Trump's candidacy seemed :(

Great closing music to the episodes.

Hamm did once say that he thought Don Draper would go on to write Reagan's "Morning in America" ad campaign (which was actually Hal Riney, who not only wrote the ad, but did the VO.) Seems about right.

I assume Don Draper keeled over from a heart attack. Sally ended up okay, but both Bobby and Glen had major issues. Glen had ongoing problems with drugs and alcohol.

Peggy married in her late 30s and managed one kid, but only after she left McCann and started her own agency.

I binged this series soon after my best friend's death, and was really drawn to Don Draper/Jon Hamm because he looked and acted just like my friend. Same body, down to similar chest hair. Similar face and hair. Every now and then there would be a line or gesture or attitude, and it was like I was watching my friend. Maybe I was noticing it because of my grief, but I've seen it in other Jon Hamm performances as well. It's just that the Don Draper character is almost spot-on.

[quote]The show was well cast--even Jessica Pare would have been fine if her role had been the original planned length

Agreed. She wasn't a great actress but the real problem was that her role was so prominent and her storyline dragged on so long. What was her purpose but to demonstrate how little Don had learned about women and relationships over the years? That could have been accomplished in a much shorter time frame. One season ended with their quickie marriage (or engagement, anyway—I don't remember); the next season could have begun with them already preparing to divorce.

I like Mad Men- although to me after the fourth season it felt like a chore. The story lines I loved though were Peggy's, Joan's, and Ken's. I thought Ken was the hottest guy on the series. I thought Roger was the least interesting character-next to Megan. I loved Robert Morse as Bert Cooper. I loved when those covert moments were put in the show. If you didn't know about " How to Succeed In Business" you missed his hook and the joke. I also loved his sister. And I loved Roger's first wife and Trudy. Both very smart women. To me they show the waste of women in the sixties. I love how black people are always in the background. That is a deliberate move.

As for Peter I loved how you hated him but still found things to see in him( not being a racist, his preppy upbringing- I knew many Peters, and his ability to see right through bullshit). Don is all bullshit. He is a character built on shifting sands of want. He represents the American culture- always wanting something only to find that the wanting was the thing, but the thing itself is cold and empty. His background was only interesting as it connected with Anna-she was the Earth Mother of the show. After she dies it moves to Peggy.

I love Peggy more than I can say. She is the only character besides Ken, that I would want to know in real life. Her story arc is fascinating. And when you consider that women are still playing that arc today-it makes her the most modern character. As for Betty I always think of her as a spoiled, selfish, obtuse bitch. I am sure there is much more to her but Weiner doesn't really do anything but show her ugly side.

That brings me to the whole problem with the show. Yes it is layered. Yes it has some great inside jokes, like the songs picked at the end of each episode. But over all Weiner didn't know where he wanted to go withe show. That year break between the fourth and fifth season broke up his focus and purpose if he ever had one. All the shows seem forced after the break. The best episode to me is " The Suitcase" when we see Don and Peggy truly connect and why they connect. Don's most interesting relationship was always with Peggy. He loves and respects her. She is the only person he ever apologizes to and means it. But he is all bullshit. Men are all bullshit when ambition and deep, hard, covert emotions rule their heart. They can't afford to be anything else. That's why he is the most attractive character. You can project onto him everything you want. And he will pretend to care but he is empty, and you are doing all the work. And that is the secret to the show.

p.s. There lots of dress shoes and dress socks moments, especially with Don. I always wondered if Weiner had a shoe and sock fetish. Since I do it's not hard- no pun intended- speculate.

[quote]Peggy married in her late 30s and managed one kid, but only after she left McCann and started her own agency.

I can imagine her and Stan starting a successful boutique agency and having a kid who would hate them for always being more interested in their work and each other than in the kid.

"Joan had some power at the end, but in the big scheme of things, Joan's power was with the men"

And at the end, she left the agency to start a company with another woman.

I suppose that marked her unofficial retirement from the battle of the sexes, a battle she thinks she won. She used sex to climb to a position of wealth and independence, if she left the field it was because she no longer needed men.

Joan was always going to land on her feet. Don't forget her son is Roger's. Since Roger's daughter decided to before a whore for a group of unwashed hippies I'm sure he would have welcomed the second chance. Plus it's a boy so double points.

Will Peggy ever acknowledge her child or will it be forced to live out the rest of it's youth as her poor nephew? Also, that child is a Campbell, shame she deprived him of that privilege.

I love how independent those women are portrayed in the show.

"I love how independent those women are portrayed in the show. "

I like that it showed both women who are independent and dependent, and how each has its price.

Excellent point R261.

[quote]Will Peggy ever acknowledge her child or will it be forced to live out the rest of it's youth as her poor nephew?

Her kid was not being raised as her nephew. She gave it up for adoption to strangers; her sister happened to give birth around the same time,

[quote]And at the end, she left the agency to start a company with another woman.

She didn't leave the company to start a business. She was drummed out after complaining about being sexually harassed. They bought her out. It was Ken Cosgrove who started her out with her new business. She ran with the idea.

Damn it OP you have me watching this again, I have work in the morning!

Anyway, I watched my favorite Betty and Don scene when they went to Rome. This time I see such a trip as just sad. Betty realized that the highlight of her vacation was being the center of Don's attention. After that jet setter trip she he comes back to casseroles, Junior League meetings and watching the kids.

She tells Don, in a childish manner, that she hates her life. It's as if Sally was talking, he didn't hear her. So she sulks back to her gilded cage. Don tells her they will go on trips again soon, yet he never makes the effort to spend time with Betty. All his money and he never takes his wife anywhere, but he can skip town for days on end to find himself. I see why she decided to leave him.

I knew a "Betty" once. She was a good-looking girl from a wealthy family, around Betty's age.

She said that when she was a girl her parents would tell her "You can be ANYTHING! You can marry a lawyer, you can marry a doctor, you can marry a diplomat or a pilot and travel all the time...".

[quote]I know I’m supposed to love Peggy, but she was always such a humorless, oddly smug little drone. Her whole career was basically an accident, but she never tired of lecturing others about how they weren’t working hard enough

In later episodes, she got her comeuppance when the Mexican lady flushed her tampons down the toilet and she had to spend money to get a plumber in.

Mad Men should be used as a teaching tool for future screen writers on how to show not tell.

My favorite character was Pete, because Pete knew bullshit when he saw it. And it would piss him off the bullshit arts and fakers kept falling upwards, while the people doing the work got shafted.

[quote]I suppose that marked her unofficial retirement from the battle of the sexes, a battle she thinks she won. She used sex to climb to a position of wealth and independence, if she left the field it was because she no longer needed men.

Imagine how fat she was going to get then. I wonder if there'll be a sequel / reboot?

Weird how Joan's husband just took himself out of the picture even though he had a son. I still remember being shocked when Joan broke a vase over his head.

Does anyone remember that Betty, unlike a lot of the female characters in the show, is well educated. She’s got a degree from Bryn Mawr - which she mentions, at least in the first few seasons, when patronized by her husband or any man. And she was in grad school when she died. She was always reading something, joined book of the month club, wasn’t afraid to give an opinion about Vietnam , and certainly was much more sophisticated than Don could even fake. No wonder she was angry- a man with her smarts and education would be a rising star and she was stuck home with babies.

R224 is right. I see it all the time where I’m currently living.

Guys, America is not just compromised of LA, NY, SF, & Miami. The majority of American, straight men who marry cute, slender, young women, end up with their slender wives becoming big gals after popping out some kids. And MANY marry fat women they meet in church, etc.

America is not NYFW. America is Miss Piggy & Elmer Fudd.

[quote]The majority of American, straight men who marry cute, slender, young women, end up with their slender wives becoming big gals

True. The second fraus get a ring on their finger they explode.

Girthy

R271, in those days, women got degrees in Art History or something equally as useless in the real world. Even if she could get into (another problem) a MBA program, there were few jobs in the real world that women could get hired for. Betty knew what was expected of her with/without education. And at that time, the unfulfillment some felt being simply wife and mother, waiting on their inferior husbands was something they usually blamed themselves for, not the system.

[quote]And at that time, the unfulfillment some felt being simply wife and mother, waiting on their inferior husbands was something they usually blamed themselves for, not the system

What an odd generalization. How could you possibly know who these nameless women blamed for what?

R276? Educate yourself. Read "The Women's Room."

Your limited writing skills couldn't cut it, R277, so you had to link to a second-rate author like Marilyn French. Got it.

[quote]There were some interesting surprises like when the dingbat secretary ran over the guy's foot with the lawnmower

That didn’t surprise us, someone posted a spoiler to DL the day before.

The American dream back then was to work in an office and not get your hands dirty. The ideal for women was to stay home and, preferably, have a nanny and/or daily help. Women worked if they couldn’t have that dream. Joan wanted to be married and be home—she didn’t want to go back to work but did when her husband didn’t make the cut as a surgeon. She went back to the office only when she got to help start Sterling Cooper Draped Price (or is it Pryce?)

Women were bored and even those without help had time saving machines that gave them more spare time to realize they had maybd missed out—hence, the Valium, Milltown, etc.).

Fuck off, R278.

I bet Betty and Don were about the same intelligence. But the set up is a bit preposterous. Betty would have had finely tuned pedigree detectors. Fraud Don wouldn't have been able to put over a fake history on a Seven Sisters gal. She might have bene a rebel and married him for who he was, anyway. Certainly if at the beginning of their relationship, he was successful, handsome and fucked her brains out.

Betty was thinking with her dick.

Plus, she herself seemed to be damaged goods.

Good post, R280. Here's another accurate generalization you won't understand, millennial R276. At that time, Women who didn't have vaginal orgasms were considered "frigid" even my their doctors. Since none of them did, they considered themselves failures. The women's movement of the 1970s exposed that bullshit in a big way, and women shared their stories. Men were extremely threatened by all of this. It seems so weird to remember, but it was 45+ years ago.

"But the set up is a bit preposterous. Betty would have had finely tuned pedigree detectors. Fraud Don wouldn't have been able to put over a fake history on a Seven Sisters gal."

What sort of background did he tell her he had? I mean, if he'd claimed to be from an upper-class background her bullshit detector might have kicked in if her brain wasn't too fogged by lust, but if he'd claimed any sort of middle-class background then not so much. Then her pedigree detectors would have claimed "inferior" and left it at that.

Betty was dickmatized, just like anyone else would hav been. Plus Don looked the part and probably said all the right things. Plus Betty was shallow. She probably loved parading Don around to all those society functions.

Don was the most handsome man n the room and Betty the most beautiful.

Throughout the series, people commented on what a good looking couple they made

Betty gained weight because Henry wanted her to quit smoking. It's the only time in the series that she's not chain smoking the whole time. She really evolved over the series more than anyone I think. The irony of beautiful Betty dying young of lung cancer. There were some scenes that showed that she and Henry had a pretty hot sex life when she wasn't fat.

I liked Megan ok, I loved her mom. Megan, for Don, to quote another character was someone who he thought was a solution to his problems, but was just another problem.

Peggy was super jaded throughout most of the series, but you could tell she had been quite flirtatious when she was younger and could still channel that when it was convenient. She was always so awful to Peggy, for the most part. It made Peggy better, though.

One of my favourite shows of all time. I still laugh when I think of their previews for the next week which gave nothing away.

A very body conscious, eating disordered female friend of mine astutely pointed out that not only is Joan not "fat", but the figure she represents is harder to attain than the skinny girl, Twiggy-type figure.

As someone pointed out, Megan was serving Euro, mid-60s looks. If the casting agent wasn't given the direction "we're looking for a Jane Birkin type", i'm a monkey's uncle. Don is a film buff and discussed Euro art films being shown in NYC with Bobbie Barrett.

[quote]What sort of background did he tell her he had?

As I recall, when Betty confronts Don after discovering his true, Dick Whitman identity, at some point she says something like, "I figured you were just a football hero who hated his father!" She also (maybe in that same episode, but it might have been a different one) once made a bitchy comment to him about how he'd obviously grown up poor because he didn't understand anything about money.

The impression I got was that Don had told her almost nothing about his background, and she'd never pressed him for details, and wasn't really that interested—as someone said, she was probably dickmatized and maybe saw marrying a presumably working-class guy with no apparent family as her little rebellion.

Bobbie Barrett was DD's perfect woman for an affair---"I like being bad and then going home and being good." She was the female Don Draper. He couldn't handle her!

I couldn’t understand why they kept boring Ken Cosgrove and got rid of Paul Kinsey when the characters jumped ship from the original Sterling Cooper. Kenny was better looking but never once had an interesting storyline, while Paul’s pretentious character was more entertaining and the actor was better too.

r147 I could not agree more. She was supposed to be the lovable feminist hero, but she was a smug, strident goody two shoes. And her costumes were hideous.

Is advertising really THAT lucrative? Don lived like an heir. Seemed unrealistic. Also unrealistic Icy Betty marrying a FUR salesman. And then choosing a nameless government underling for hubby two. Also odd, ambitious and smart Joan being a college graduate yet ending up as a secretary. ALSO odd, Don living in Ossining. Should have been Greenwich. Ossining?!

I assumed Ossining was supposed to represent the prison of an unhappy marriage.

" a bitchy comment to him about how he'd obviously grown up poor because he didn't understand anything about money."

This was a great line and January Jones delivered it perfectly.

She really was very good in that part upon reflection. I did hate Betty up until the last season, when her motivations and trepidations became more apparent, but she had some great line readings.

R295, you don't get it at all. You're supposed to dislike/then feel sorry for Betty.

Ossining because Don did NOT make a fortune as an ad man, R296, you nitwit.

"smart Joan being a college graduate yet ending up as a secretary"

You need to actually read this thread since you do not understand what life was like for women in the 1960s. Joan could have cured cancer and she'd still be employed as a secretary.

Didn't Bryan Batt insinuate he'd been the victim of homophobia when they wrote Sal out? Or was that just the Twitter SJW crybabies?

I liked Sal but there was very little he could do as a character in that era.

[quote]That didn’t surprise us, someone posted a spoiler to DL the day before.

I still am mad that somebody did that for a Sopranos episode, it would have been a real shock if it hadn't been spoiled here

Ossining was also a reference to John Cheever's place of residence. Cheever was another guiding spirit for MM's modus vivendi.

Alcoholic, tormented bisexual, status-conscious, his demons fed into all those stories for the 'New Yorker.' Thus like so much of MM, deep strife could be partially redeemed by success and gloss.

Apt that Cheever's 'Journals' depicts on the dust jacket a white picket fence, broken.

Bobbie Barrett was exciting but when she blabbed about "The Full Draper Treatment" and Done found out that she was talking about him that was the end. Still think of that scene when Don stuck his hand right up her in a restaurant.

[quote]I still am mad that somebody did that for a Sopranos episode, it would have been a real shock if it hadn't been spoiled here.

Ooh, what did they spoil? You can tell us, everyone’s seen them by now.

Something I once wrote about Don and his women.

Mad Men is about the way people define themselves from the outside – get things not because you actually need them but rather because they’ll make you feel good about yourself – this is what advertising is all about – getting you to acquire stuff to calm, however briefly, that constant itch of dissatisfaction, or so Don told us on the pilot. And this is why Don constantly looks for new women – not for sex, not really for love but as a tool for redefining himself. Lacking a solid, dependable sense of self, by being romantically involved with a person, he inhabits what he believes to be the essence of them, and he tends to go for people who represent a certain abstract notion he’s striving for at the time he hooks up with them.

With Betty, obviously, he got that sense of stability, familial as well as social. With Midge it was about being free spirited and creative. Rachel offered the alluring sense of exotic otherness he could project on his own misfit state. Joy rootless nihilism was an alternative possibility for him to toy with at a time he was not sure his normative, middle class realm was valid anymore. Susan idealism and commitment to others, ironically, attracted him at a time he was supposed to be a good family man. Even Sylvia, with her close to home, guilt ridden realness was a reflection of the way Don was reconnecting with the harshness of his personal history – no role playing allowed with her!

And as for Megan? Well, Faye offered him a grounded, mature grasp and understanding of his own very particular social and professional world – and he declined it for what Megan seemed to be all about – wide eyed admiration of him and a romantic glorification of what “you and Peggy are doing”. With her it was not only about a fresh start as a married couple but also a bright future as a creative team. Her walking away from advertising was a shocking blow to the core of his professional self, and since that was always a fundamental part of his fabricated persona, a huge hit on his grasp of who he is.

Now – Bobbie. She doesn’t fit in, doesn’t she? But that’s because that time it wasn’t her being picked by Don but rather him being Don-Drapered by her. It was quite a reality check in too many ways for him (as well as for Betty), and it certainly was an affair to remember, as we found out when he quoted Bobbie (the infamous “being bad/being good” one) to Joan on Christmas Waltz.

r305 Some ass here posted a thread with a title something like "Junior shoots Tony tonight" grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Joan's figure can be obtained through overeating and industrial strength shapewear.

I liked Don with Dr. Faye but he didn't want a woman he had to be authentic with

"Also odd, ambitious and smart Joan being a college graduate yet ending up as a secretary. "

Oh honey, back in those days if a girl got a college degree that meant she could get a job as a secretary or a schoolteacher, instead of a maid or a factory worker.

And yes, Joan's figure is really very rare. Any woman can be slim if she's willing to starve herself or devote her spare time to working out, but when a person fills out the pounds don't go where they might be welcome.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

E-fucking-nough about Christina Hendricks and/or Joan Holloway's shape.

THE

HORSE

IS

DEAD

You have all beaten it to death

R300, step away from the keyboard, go outside and get some fresh air.

Sheesh.

If I remember correctly, Roger's go-to drink for ulcer relief was buttermilk.

Back before there were proton pump inhibitors, the only thing to be done about ulcers was stress relief and a "bland" diet. Lots of milk products were recommended, which I've heard actually make the stomach produce more acid in the long run.

But as I said above, uclers were SO common in high-stress jobs that they were almost a sort of badge of honors. Men in top jobs used to joke about ulcers, like the movie studio head who said "I don't get ulcers, I give them".

Must have been the alcohol, R315, since ulcers have since been found to be caused by a bacterial infection not stress.

[quote] The irony of beautiful Betty dying young of lung cancer

Don and his toasted Lucky Strikes ads destroyed all the women who mattered most to him. Betty, Rachel, and Anna each died of cancer. Peggy had to become a smoker to even work for him, and Sally had also started down that path

At the end of the day, did Betty really matter all that much to Don? I don't think so. He never really tried to get her back, as I always sort of half-assumed he would.

I appreciate the fact that this show confounded my expectation that Don and Betty would ultimately reconcile.

[quote]Don and his toasted Lucky Strikes ads destroyed all the women who mattered most to him. Betty, Rachel, and Anna each died of cancer. Peggy had to become a smoker to even work for him, and Sally had also started down that path

Never really put all that together but you're right.

[quote]At the end of the day, did Betty really matter all that much to Don? I don't think so. He never really tried to get her back, as I always sort of half-assumed he would.

There's the episode when Don and Betty sleep together while visiting Bobby at camp. Don seems surprised to discover that the sex is all Betty wants from him, and regretful realizing he couldn't get her back if he wanted to, but I'd agree that he didn't actually want to—just wanted to think that he could.

Don just seems so empty. He is a quick thinker because he never wants to be discovered. Those moments when you get a real person ( when he hugs his brother, his moments with Anna, that night with Peggy) are the only moments I really wonder who he could be if he gave into himself.

I hated the Dick Whitman flashbacks.

I’m always curious as to what Don told Betty about his background too. I remember in an early episode she said something like “So your parents are responsible for all this? I’ll have to thank them.” I never understood that line.

I love the scene with Burt,his sister and Roger (when they’re discussing selling to the UK firm

Love when they put Roger in his place. He’s such a smug SOB.

I think if Betty wouldn't have met Henry and he became her backup plan, she would have stayed in the marriage and just lived the lie. In that era there were few options for divorced women and usually they were shunned. In fact, I'm surprised that Henry would have gotten involved with Betty.

The thing about both Don and Betty is that they used each other in the same way. Betty was a little deeper than Don, but at the end of the day, they cast each other as if it was a role in a film. Betty was the perfect wife, until she wasn't. Don was the dapper, handsome stud, until he wasn't.

[quote] Don just seems so empty. He is a quick thinker because he never wants to be discovered. Those moments when you get a real person ( when he hugs his brother, his moments with Anna, that night with Peggy) are the only moments I really wonder who he could be if he gave into himself.

But he's also every man from that era I ever met. Including my own father.

I loved that scene too, R323!! It is such a bummer that Bert's sister only appeared in that one episode, because she was wittier -- and her remarks cut much deeper -- than Roger.

Thanks to all of you for this thread--one of the best on DL I've seen in the two years I've been here.

Great commentary all around.

One of my favorite shows.

Some random comments:

* Ossining was not a posh suburb (though may have been in 1962) but is home to Sing Sing Prison and Wiener was probably going for the heavy-handed analogy.

* I'm glad other people found Peggy smug and priggish too. Thought I was alone on that.

* Never understood why Bob Benson character was introduced. The "oh, he's really gay" reveal was sort of pointless, given Sal. There were so many more interesting places they could have gone with the mysterious character they set up.

* Megan didn't bother me as much as many of you. To me she was Don reveling in being the king, this wealthy ad guy who lived on Park Avenue with his hot younger wife, only he quickly realized he wasn't any happier, no matter how hard he tried to be.

* Roger seemed the right age-- he appeared to be about 10-15 years older than Don

* Great point whoever noted that Pete seemed unduly bothered by the fact that fakes kept failing upwards while the guys who did the work got no reward.

* In the years since the series first started, the ad business has really been reduced in relevance, the glory days, especially for creatives like Don, seem long gone

* Not all that surprising that Betty never pried into Don's past--they seemed to not have very deep conversations and mostly be about how perfect they looked together.

* Agree that it would have been great to see Don's transformation from country boy to suave Don Draper--the fur salesmen years, if yuo will, in more detail.

R328, you might be interested in Ken Auletta's new book, Frenemies, which is all about how the advertising business has changed in the past 15 years or so.

I agree with R271 about Betty and her smarts. R278, she wasn’t an art history bore, Betty reminds us several times her degree was anthropology. Born a decade later, Betty would have been a different character. Joan too.

"The thing about both Don and Betty is that they used each other in the same way. Betty was a little deeper than Don, but at the end of the day, they cast each other as if it was a role in a film. Betty was the perfect wife, until she wasn't. Don was the dapper, handsome stud, until he wasn't. "

I think that during their marriage, they were both empty; at least, they thought that living out the popular image of the perfect life would make them happy. Because face it, how many heterosexuals do you know that pick their spouse like they're casting a role in a film - half of them? Eighty percent?

Betty had the capacity to realize that the façade wasn't making her happy and to take major steps to change her life, Don didn't. He had no capacity for self-reflection at all, probably because he had no authentic self, and that meant he had no capacity for meaningful change. Betty probably would have spent the seventies pursuing self-actualization and probably would have made a better job of it than most, but the cigs Don advertised got her first. Maybe that was a metaphor for her toxic relationship with Don, how she could never really escape his influence. Or maybe I should get some sleep.

Don was dead inside and spent his life going through the motions trying to find that spark or someone who would make him feel something. The problem is he could never find it and was never going to find it. So he kept falling back on what he did best, lie and create fantasy.

Betty was also dead inside, but in a different way.

Thanks R329. I read reviews of that book, which seems to be all that's needed. Friends who work in that business seem to feel it's a guy who was last relevant in the 80s writing about other guys who were last relevant in the 80s (I'll take their word for it) but from the reviews it seems it's about how advertising went from Big Ideas to Big Data and since the latter is more or less a commodity product, they're fucked.

Even more egregious than the Norwegian Catholicism: Peggy’s ad for a roommate in “The Arrangements” (season 3, episode 4) says that Peggy is allergic to cats, but Peggy is later shown owning a cat. (In, for example, “Favors”—season 6, episode 11.)

To whomever mentioned The Women's Room, I found it free online and have been reading it. It does explain why Betty would stay with Don, men had all the power back then.

Misogyny ruins yet another thread. Go kill yourselves trolls.

Back to Mad Men. Pete totally raped the nanny right? And he never got called out on it.

Mad Men would be an interesting re-watch in the light of MeToo.

I totally forgot that Peggy told Pete about the baby. Just watched that episode last night.

They all are preparing for the nuclear war (Trudy goes to her parents) and you see Pete, alone, with his gun in the office.

R336 Pete blackmailed the nanny to give him sex by replacing her boss’ dress (which she ruined with red wine) and implying heavily that he would tattle if she didn’t put out. It was rape by coercion, for sure.

He only got a talking-to by the nanny’s boss (don’t do the help in your own building, dude), sort of a friendly advice from an older guy to a younger guy. His reason to talk to Pete was to stop the crying nanny and the bitching wife from ruining his cocktails and TV.

Pete also didn’t pay for the dress he replaced. He went to Saks or wherever. Joan was working there, not proudly, and she was so embarrassed that she just gave Pete a new dress and shuffled him out of the store as quickly as she could.

Ossining was a nice town, though it wasn't/isn't Rye, Bronxville or Scarsdale. More like Eastchester or New Rochelle - nice sections and shitty ones. I moved to Westchester in 1962.

Is Ossining nice now? I have driven through but don’t know.

I don't go west of 9A, R341.

Duck is a character who doesnt get a lot of attention yet his is the one who rang truest to me. Consummate ad man, account exec, blandly handsome, great voice, hard drinker. He had the conciliatory attitude exactly right. The rest of the account men from Bert and Roger down to Bob were fun and interesting tv characters but not what you'd see in a top Madison Ave shop in the 60s.

I wanted Duck's dick....until he tried to take a dump on one of the chairs.

Poor Chauncey

I could see Don in his later years writing a series of glib, well-reviewed novels after he retired from advertising. He also might have survived to an old age. My father is 85 and doing well despite all of the smoking, drinking and whoring he did. He's on his third wife, too. Someone totally different from the first two.

I never liked Pete because he was so smug and entitled. Never let anyone forget that he was fucking Peter DYKMAN Campbell. Loved it when he was ready to drop the dime on Don to Bert and the guy says, "Nobody cares." I did root for Pete and Trudy to get back together, though.

Did Betty want the boys to be raised by her brother after she died? Am I remembering that correctly? Not Don. Not Henry.

Henry's mother was a DL fave for being such a cunt. Of course, she wouldn't see Betty's appeal to Henry. Henry's first wife was probably a plain shrew like his mom. Betty was a trophy, albeit slightly tarnished. She was the kind of wife that other men would be envious of Henry for having.

The first season was perfection, but admit it, if this show took place today, nobody would've put up with the ruddlerless, slowburn, dropped plotlines, pointless filler bullshit. It's not that great

So to pick up on an earlier comment, what do you all think the point of Bob Benson was?

They introduced him as this mysterious almost grifter-like suck-up who succeeded in charming everyone, then the big reveal was that (a) he was gay and (b) he was a fairly decent guy.

I kept thinking they originally had another direction for that plot line in place for him but then dropped it.

Joan did not work at Saks; she worked at Bonwit Teller.

And Bert did not get his start in advertising as an account person, R343; Bert started in media. There is a snippet of dialogue between Harry and Bert in one of the later seasons that makes this clear.

Loved how Bob had Pete try to drive a stick shift, at which he completely failed.

I had forgotten about Don's brother. Christ, what a tragedy! Imagine finding your long-lost brother, who everyone insisted was dead, only to have him reject you and try to buy you off. Don was a total shit to him.

Yes, Betty wanted the kids to go to her brother's family. Sally thought they should stay with Henry. I think, though, Don will manage a quickie marriage to the earth mother who "rescues" him at the Esalen-like place. She's played by Helen Slater, so Weiner picked a known actress for a small, but pivotal part. Don picks his wives, in part, to give him the perfect family he never had. Megan helps out Sally when she runs away and Don proposes to her after he sees her with his kid looking like an ad in a restaurant. (Of course, Megan turns out to not really be that interested, but she knows how to sell to Don.)

Don's an emotionally limited guy, but he knows that he's not single-father material, though he's not a terrible father if someone else is doing the heavy lifting. Betty does the lifting, but she's a terrible mother once her kids get past early childhood.

Pete was someone who had everything going his way except for his personal relationships, and his insecurities about his shortcomings just fucked him up.

Bob Benson, oddly, was the only one who was 100 percent all about Pete.

What was the story about Bob and the cruise? He had some gay gigolo friend who was romancing Pete's widowed mother?

Pete’s dad died in a plane crash and mom falls into the ocean on a cruise.

Manolo, the obviously gay caretaker that Bob recommended to Pete, pushed Pete's mom off the boat while they were on a cruise.

Manolo would also, hilariously, dress Pete's mom up to the nines whenever she left the house.

Who in American culture do you think is a real life Don Draper?

r357 Ben Bradlee?

R358 perhaps. But that would make uber cunt Sally Quinn Betty. Betty on her worst day still wasn't as bad as Quinn. Did Bradlee grow up poor?

Ben Bradlee was to the manner born.

Ben Bradlee, no way. Katherine Graham husband Phil Graham possibly. He was a bi-polar who eventually blew his brains out.

...to the manner born?

Oh, dear!

When I think of a Don Draper, I think of someone who came from nothing and transformed himself. Phil Graham would have been the exact opposite.

Then Robin Stone is your man, R363.

"Hamm is a handsome guy but in a contemporary role or just walking around as himself, he often seems a little goofy."

Maybe that's why he's moved into comedy with Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.

[quote]Who in American culture do you think is a real life Don Draper?

Ralph Lauren? Calvin Klein?

I think Hamm is a much better comedic actor, playing against his traditional handsome looks.

Adorable pic of Jon as a baby. He already had that big Jon Hamm grin.

R36 I am not the original poster but “to the manner born” is a phrase and actually predates “to the manor born.”

Like Delta Burke, Christina Hendricks' massive weight gain altered the show's dynamic. She was much slimmer when she was cast, so that led to the character changing. She really looks huge in some of the later seasons.

Actually, Mad Men really sucked. I grew up in that era, but the hell we live in now seems like a paradise.

Sweetheart at r370, you've posted 38 times now on the same topic of Joan's weight; no exaggeration. You do realize they can medicate OCD, right?

Straight men love her curves. If you don't find her womanly body attractive maybe you're a pedophile.

[quote]Actually, Mad Men really sucked.

The show or the era, r371?

r374 the show

I’m on season 3 of my rewatch. Just watched the episode when Don meets up with Conrad Hilton. And Hilton is so assumed that Don doesn’t know who he is and that’s like a regular guy.

Roger in blackface! Omg.

And what's wrong with that?

[quote][R374] the show

Why did you think it sucked, r375?

The Roger-in-blackface episode was also as I recall the big party where Pete won stand-back attention and kudos for dancing so well. (Such an important part of any young gentleman's repertoire.) Nicely done, and fun.

R363 maybe John Boehner. Didn't he grow up sort of poor?

[quote][R363] maybe John Boehner. Didn't he grow up sort of poor?

Huh? Even if he did grow up poor, how did he in any way end up a Don Draper type?

as another poster said, i'm still trying to understand Bob Benson's role in the series. he appeared out of nowhere, fucked in many ways Pete's life, and then went away. i agree with a review i read at the time, he was very similar to Tom Ripley. But his plan was obscure and confusing.

r364 he was in The Love Machine not VOD

oops sorry r364 I didn't click on it

I wish James Wonk (Bob Benson) could have been a full cast member. He was the hottest guy on the show besides, Betty's Cuban Missile bar hookup ( Ryan McPartlin).

Random thought, but I Just love this.

I get the feeling that Bob was supposed to be gay Don Draper and be around long enough to annoy Pete that he was once again getting out played by a phony.

[quote]Huh? Even if he did grow up poor, how did he in any way end up a Don Draper type?

RIGHT?

The modern equivalent of Don Draper seems like Bill Clinton.

Bob Benson was supposed to be a bigger part but the guy who played him left the show for that sitcom with Robin Williams. Or maybe it was the show before that about a zoo? I don't know, but he got the lead role on some show on CBS and that was why he was written out.

Remember Joan's poor roommate, Carol, confessing her love for Joan in the first season?

The set up for Bob was great here

There is no modern equivalent of Don Draper as it would involve someone who completely fabricated their back story

Maybe Claus von Bulow who turned out to have been just plain Klaus Bulow and nowhere near as posh as he was making himself out to be.

Clinton, Lauren, Klein--they all owned their backstories and never pretended to be anything they were not.

Raymond Burr was a real-life Don Draper. Remember his made-up wife who died in a made-up plane crash?

[quote]There is no modern equivalent of Don Draper as it would involve someone who completely fabricated their back story

I tend to agree. Arguably, Don Draper's generation is the last generation that could completely disappear and reinvent themselves as someone else. No one was doing background checks or looking at school records. If you looked the part you could pretty much say you were anyone.

My Aunt went to New York City in the 1950s, changed her last name, passed for white and became a completely different person. There was no eVerify. And with that generation, if you move far enough way you would never be found out.

R370 Joan was on the cusp of being fat even for the 50's and 60's the first season. After the first season, she would have been considered fat by 50's and 60's standards. None of my mother's friends except one were ever that fat even though most of them were size 10 to 14. Joan looks to be a size 18 or 20. My mother was a tall big boned woman and yet she never got over a size 14. She would have been mortified if she was ever as fat as Joan. Monroe and Mansfield were never close to being that fat. I saw some of Monroes movie dresses in a museum and her clothes looked small in person.

How long as we going to go on about whether or not Joan is fat? We do not need to fucking agree on this stupid topic. You have all stated your opinions, and examined every god damned inch of this woman's body for each of the show's six seasons, and then, for good measure, you have run a comparative analysis of her starting and ending weights.

It is time to shut the fuck up about this fucking topic.

R397 is reading HAES.

[quote]you have run a comparative analysis of her starting and ending weights.

No one's done that yet. So thanks for the suggestion. I'd say she started at 155 and was 180 at her fattest.

[quote] How long as we going to go on about whether or not Joan is fat?

There's no debate. She is fat. You dislike that being pointed out because you're a fat woman.

I liked Betty's dad - the one who looked like John McCain. That gruff/sweet thing is hot. He obviously adored Betty, even though he treated her more like a princessy doll than a grown wife and mother. He saw right through Don, however, and didn't trust him with Betty. He seemed very "dad" like. Good body, too.

John Slattery should have directed more episodes.

[quote]There's no debate. She is fat. You dislike that being pointed out because you're a fat woman.

I'm a 6'1', 185 lb man, dipshit.

You're obsessed with talking about her body because you WANT to be a fat woman.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Whether Joan was fat and whether she was desirable seems to be the most fascinating thing about this old TV show.

R395, now THAT is one helluva story.

Would you care to start a new thread, and tell us all you can? Or just write it out here, in this thread, if it’s not too long. Is she still living? Do you have any pics of her? I’d love to know more about her.

Did she keep in touch with your family, or did she just disappear after a while, never to be heard of again?

So many questions! Answer me! I demand answers!!!

R405, how old are you? MM was and is one of THE BEST tv shows out there, in decades, only bested by The Wire. However, two totally different shows.

I suggest you watch it, if you haven’t already, so that you can learn about what makes damn good writing for TV, and why it captured America’s attention, winning awards year after year.

A beautifully done series. A classic.

R406, without derailing the thread. The only pic that I've ever seen is one of her and my grandmother as young women, right before she left home. But if you're curious what she looked like, she looked like a white woman just as my grandmother and mother and aunts look/ed like white women. I believe she kept in touch with my great-grandmother, writing her letters and sending her money. I know she kept in touch with my grandma because of letters that were found after my grandma died. She could still be alive, I'm not sure.

Now back to Mad Men.

R401, Betty’s dad was also the only person on the show to take a genuine interest in raising Sally. He was the only one who ever encouraged her in any way; he exposed her to great books and read them with her; and he enjoyed spending time with her and Bobby.

Can someone explain why Betty and Don were so obnoxious to Betty’s brother and wife?

They were always accusing them of trying to steal stuff from the dad’s house. They were decent to the dad too.

Because they were imbeciles?

I created a thread so the IS JOAN FAT discussion can live for those that give a fuck.

Please take the continued discussion there. The rest of us would really like to talk about the show....you fat whores!

anyway, as we were saying.....

Where IS that photo of Bob in short shorts, anyway?

This is better.

I love that episode and tap dancing Ken so hard.

R345, it still upsets me to think about that.

Duck was a hot mess.

Hendricks' official weight was 154 lbs when the show started I think. That was fat for the time. No matter then would've admitted to being over 150 lbs. That would be shameful.

Joan Ham-a-day

R395, there's a novel and the movie right there.

[quote]there's a novel and the movie right there.

The Human Stain, it's been done

For all of you who can't stop talking about Joan's weight:

I tried to watch the show a few times. All my friends loved it. But Joan's obesity was a series killer for me.

Joan was spectacular from the tits up. The rest didn’t appeal to me, but I have never fucked a woman and never will so nobody gives a shit about my opinion. I’m in the minority as Betty and Roger were my favorite characters. Don was unlikable and an asshole from the beginning. I don’t understand why anyone would “root” for him. He wasn’t redeemable. Pathetic, yes.

"Joan was spectacular from the tits up."

And her tits were the biggest implants they make. All of the women in the series have augmented breasts. Not a deal breaker for me, just another bit of 1960s inauthenticity.

Why did they have Don and Roger drinking Dr Pepper in from of a vending machine with a big Dr Pepper sign on it? It must be very bad overly obvious product placement because we didn't have Dr Pepper in New York until the 70s.

R424, R425, can you read a road sign?

I see a belly at R422.

Not to disrespect Muriel, but I must ask: Didn’t Christina Hendricks become pregnant, and had a child, IRL, during the filming of the show? I was under the impression that she did, hence the weight gain.

I happen to think she’s fucking GORGEOUS, btw. I loved Joan, and her weight was never a distraction. One of the sexiest women who I’ve laid eyes on in a very long time. And I’m a thin, straight chick, so that statement is as authentic as it gets.

Hendricks was originally a flat-chested blonde so everything about her was artificial. I will say, though, that my philandering dad would have been all over her back in the day. He liked big-titted women with some heft to them.

R425, Why do you think all the other women had boob jobs? Moss' look natural, so do January Jones.

I suspect Moss is still biodegradable.

I dread to think of a Joan nude scene. Thank God the show wasn't broadcast in CinemaScope.

In the sixties, women made do with padding, not implants!

I wonder how many disappointed men there were back then.

Even if you were a good and faithful wife your husband screwed around on you and it was just something that was expected. I look at my mother and she was so fortunate to be married to a good man like my father, if you were married to a jerk you were stuck. When I was in 5th grade in the 70's the first of my parents friends got divorced, I was in the same class as their son and he was the only one with divorced parents in the whole class. My parents tried not to take sides but it ended up they went with the husband and his ex wife was no longer in the social circle and I imagine that's how it went. The husband remarried and the new wife took the old wife's place and things went on from there.

I wonder at what point her vanity clause kicked in?

There is a thread to talk about Joan.

Those who keep posting about her weight here will be FF'd.

DL is full of aspies R436.

It was a golden age for incels.

[quote]I wonder at what point her vanity clause kicked in?

It should've been called in long before she got to the size she did.

It's too late for this thread. It is over. The people obsessing over Joan's weight (including the idiot who created and then publicized a separate thread for discussing it) have ruined it.

Clutch those pearls Miss R440

The original name for Bob Benson was Harry Taint as a homage to Bewitched.

I always found the scenes between Roger and Peggy to be pretty interesting. She had no fear of him. He seemed to have some measure of respect for her.

That odd scene when they were leaving the office the last time and she was roller skating. They had an odd friendship.

That director knew how to construct an interesting shot.

Mmmm...vermouth!

....

All the mothers to the primary characters were all cunts: Joan, Peggy, Pete, and to some degree Megan.

Peggy was an interesting character--socially awkward, always an outsider, but very focused. I always thought the clothes that didn't quite work and the hair that became in fashion, but also looked stiff were very deliberate choices to express that. Joan, Betty, Megan knew how to present themselves. Peggy didn't.

Which is partly why Don loved her (in his way) and trusted her, but wasn't sexually attracted to her. He liked his women perfectly packaged and emblematic of the current zeitgeist--he was an ad man through and through--always looking to buy the perfect woman to fit his current image of the American dream. But he only liked the pursuit, once he'd purchased, the woman lost her allure.

Joan always struck me as a character who was trying to be the perfect Marilyn type of the time, but was essentially too smart and, thus, too bitchy. She didn't have the Grace Kelly classiness of Betty, who really did know how to be the perfect Republican candidate's wife--her hair got stiffer season by season--but she also didn't have the young free-swinging allure of Megan. Though Megan was looking a bit hard and used by the end of the series--another deliberate choice.

Both Joan and Peggy were going to survive pretty comfortably though--Joan's main emotional life will be her kid. Peggy will continue to be married to her work, but will have Stan and maybe a kid on the side. (Though Weiner didn't originally intend to have her end up with Stan, but fans and actor chemistry changed his mind.)

You're this far into the thread and nobody's mentioned me? What's wrong with you people?

Was the craft services done in '60s style to help people with their character? Did Christina Hendricks eat it all or did she binge back in her trailer?

Roger on LSD stands out as a kind of epiphany as does Slattery's fine acting.

Robert "Bobby" Morse out-acted the lot of them by merely raising an eyebrow. He's of a different era.

Ida Blankenship was an ASTRONAUT.

I know Moss is considered a good actress, but something about her has always turned me off. Not attractive, resting bitch face. Always ready to scold or nag. I remember when she was briefly Don's secretary and she covered his hand with hers to let him know she could be had and I laughed out loud. As if she thought he would want her! I also thought the plot point of her being able to hide her full-term pregnancy was ridiculous, even with the bulky fashions of the day.

Peggy was simultaneously a self- righteous nag AND a whiner. Pretty much the two most unattractive human traits rolled into one.

I really wish the character hadn’t been so annoying— it took away from her story.

I liked Peggy stoned.

[quote] Roger on LSD stands out

I'd buy that for a dollar

"Not to disrespect Muriel, but I must ask: Didn’t Christina Hendricks become pregnant"

Ha ha, no, Christina. That was Cybill Shepard in Moonlighting.

"Even if you were a good and faithful wife your husband screwed around on you and it was just something that was expected."

That's a fantasy, especially of middle aged men who felt they "missed out" on the whole scene.

R434, that's the stuff of movies and TV series.

r458 it really did happen though. I felt bad for the ex wife because she did nothing wrong, her husband cheated on her and then dumped her for the other woman and she was replaced. I spent a lot of time with their family and my friend's mother was so sweet, she didn't deserve it. The ironic thing is the woman he left her for was nothing to look at and kind of a tough broad, while his wife was very attractive and pleasant.

Folks, you are all so boring and annoying. This thread was obviously intended to prompt a critique of the show having the benefit of perspective and hindsight. Not some shopworn, tired recitation of your own recaps of the show from when it was still on the air.

If you do not have anything new to add, then just let the thread die. It was a good thread for awhile there.

No, Christina Hendricks has never had children, although she looks like she has.

R459, I didn't say it did not happen, it just was not common. Naturally, the dumped wife blamed the other woman instead of her husband. I saw it happen with high level executives who ended up supporting the ex for life with alimony, not with the average Joe working guy even if he worked in a suit in an office. This kind of stuff still happens, but because women have access to good paying jobs, finding a man to support them is not the issue.

Bovine

The best part for me was Don hiding his real identity from Betty, once she found out it never was as interesting but I loved the show and stuck with it until the end. Most of those actors were at their peak in that show and will never be that good again.

I binge watched the whole series after it finished and I have to say, it never really gelled for me. Don, Peggy, Roger, Joan, none of them seemed authentic. The British guy who hung himself, Ted, Harry, Ken, Paul, Sal, all nope. They all had interesting storylines/scenes at some point but I just didn't care about them.

Duck was real. Pete and Trudy were authentic. The Christmas party when Meredith drove the riding lawnmower into the glass window and ran over the client's foot, *very* real. Yes I can see that happening. The last scene I think Betty was sitting at the kitchen table just over it and Sally helping little Bobbie, making a sandwich maybe? and him not understanding that his mother was going to die soon. That was heartbreaking. The California scenes when Don went to visit the real Don Draper's widow and fell asleep on her couch, very true. Those scenes were amazing and it was so sad when she died and he just closed up again.

So, some good parts but I doubt I'll ever rewatch it.