Is Collusion Illegal?

This is a dodge. To commit collusion you must commit all sorts of actual felonies, such as conspiracy to defraud or monel laundering.

It is.

Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 makes it illegal for a foreign national to interfere with, influence, or contribute to a federal election. An American citizen conspiring (or colluding) to allow that is a crime. Money laundering is a crime. Then there’s the question of whether subverting federal elections to conspire with known hostile foreign powers rises to treason.

But wasn’t the Steele dossier compiled with information provided by people working in the Russian government? Does it then come down to intent?

No one on the Clinton campaign met with Russian officials with the intent of swaying the election. Once Christopher Steele realized what the import of what he was gathering on Trump, he went to the US Government, not the Clinton campaign.

The Steele dossier is irrelevant to the question of whether or not Trump or people in his campaign conspired with people either in, or who were working on behalf of, the Russian government to influence the outcome of the 2016 election. Plus, this whole ridiculous argument that there is no "collusion in the federal criminal code" is a complete smokescreen. Look at the clip that Media Matters compiled of all the Trump sycophants and toadies dutifully intoning the misleading message that "collusion is not a crime." Well, guess what, "offing someone" isn't a crime, but murder certainly is.

[bold]This[/bold] is what they are hanging their hat on. The fact that a short-hand way for describing the crimes that were committed in 2016 is not itself a defined crime. Big fucking deal. Most people are not going to fall for this nonsense once the actual crimes are explained to them.

And, good luck if anyone thinks that Don Jr. and others are going to bluff their way out of this. When the indictments for conspiracy are handed down by the grand jury, the defendants can all raise the defense that "collusion isn't a crime." Let's see exactly how far that gets them.

Death is legal, killing someone is not. Drinking is legal, drunk driving is not.

Trumpers love to gaslight people by using silly talking points to distract from the truth, and I am surprised to see people fall for it.

The Carter Page FISA warrant is 412 pages long. The Michael Steele dossier is literally just a footnote inside it.

[quote]But wasn’t the Steele dossier compiled with information provided by people working in the Russian government? Does it then come down to intent?

The crime is not working with foreign officials. It’s working with them in order to break the law. So, yes, intent matters. You must intend to do something criminal. Like break into computers or violate campaign finance laws.

Asking any foreign country to spy on Americans is illegal, at the least.

Asking Communist Russia to spy on American government officials for "dirt" is treason. The Cold War never ended, despite what Bush Sr took credit for. Russia, China, Cuba, and North Korea are still not our allies.

[quote] Asking Communist Russia to spy on American government officials for "dirt" is treason. The Cold War never ended, despite what Bush Sr took credit for. Russia, China, Cuba, and North Korea are still not our allies.

But what if they didn’t ask them to do anything? What if someone just offered dirt? Is that illegal? What if they didn’t know someone was working on behalf of the Russian government? I’m just wondering what the outcome to all of this could be. What legal problems they can be in.

As one of the talking heads on MSNBC said, no where in any law can he find the words "bank heist" but robbing a bank is still illegal.

r12, that is exactly why "strict constitutionalists" are full of shit. There are tons of things that are not strictly listed in the constitution that we have had outlawed for decades.

OP, “collusion” isn’t a legal term, but “conspiracy “ is, and that’s usually what we mean when talking about collusion. Acts of conspiracy, that I know of, so far:

Email from Don Jr. about the upcoming meeting with Russians on 6/6/16.

The 6/6/16 meeeting in Trump Tower between senior Trump campaign people and Russian agents.

Trump ‘s public call for Russia to release the Hillary’s 30,000 Hillary emails.

Release of the DNC emails to the public that Trump knew of in advance.

Jared’s attempt to set-up a secure communication line through the Russian Embassy.

Trump’s firing of Comey.

Trump’s bullying of Jeff Sessions and eventual firing.

Trump’s hosting of the Russian diplomats in the Oval Office.

Trump’s private meetings with Putin.

[quote] We’re in uncharted waters now.

Not really. Both Gore and another, I think it was McCain, got their opponent’s campaign strategy book or debate prep notes somehow. They both turned it immediately over to the FBI.

OP, as for illegality, firstly, the emails and files were stolen. That makes it illegal to accept them. There are also all sorts of laws violated. The Russians hacked servers, stole identities, interfered with the election, and more - all illegal.

Also, there’s all the lying to Congress and the FBI, and otherwise obstructing Justice.

Thanks, R1. I forgot about conspiracy to defraud and money laundering, which members of the Trump team also did.

Mueller isn't using the term "collusion"; Trump is.

Clue #1 as to its legal utility.

Try "treason." Try "receiving campaign funds from a foreign entity." Try "attempting to influence foreign policy with agents of a foreign government, against the extant Administration's policy."

Try "committing and/or suborning perjury in sworn testimony to Congress/a Grand Jury/a Special Prosecutor."

Try "money laundering."

Etc.

Oh, yes, there is also lying to Congress.

Remember Don Jr. initially denied most everything about the June 2016 meeting? Then he disclosed more, after that more had been revealed. He went on Fox to deny there was more again. Then more again came out, and he changed his story again? He changed his story multiple times.

Somewhere in all this he testified to Congress and lied repeatedly. He should get prison time just for that. [bold] To him that much has been given, much will be expected. [/bold]

R-I-C-O.

R11: "What if they didn't know...?" ?!

Look, Rip Van Winkle, wake up and smell the two-year-old news. They all KNEW. Manafort, Page, Kushner, Papadopoulos, Flynn, and Trump pere et fils.

And Cohen

[quote] R11: But what if they didn’t ask them to do anything? What if someone just offered dirt? Is that illegal? What if they didn’t know someone was working on behalf of the Russian government? I’m just wondering what the outcome to all of this could be. What legal problems they can be in.

The email asking for the 6/6/16 meeting in Trump Tower offering Hillary’s emails stated something like “I want you to know this offer of stolen email comes from the Russian government and we want to support you.” Don Jr. responded “if it’s what you say it is, I love it.”

That’s as clear as day. No “what ifs” about it.

Speaking of Cohen, he's been quiet lately...

[quote]Asking Communist Russia to spy on American government officials for "dirt" is treason.

So it also involves access to a time machine?

OP, if i collude to kill you would that be okay?

I am quite frustrated with this. I want the principals all in a jail cell, and soon. I suppose it’s too much to hope for, but maybe Mueller is waiting to indite Trump and Pence until Pelosi is in line to assume the presidency. Maybe he thinks that would be justice. I know I do.

And there’s nothing to prohibit the inditement of a President. This isn’t lying about a BJ; or even all of Nixon’s crimes. This is much more serious. I don’t know if Pence is involved, but of course, he should go, too.

If Trump knew certain dirty deals went down and said nothing about them- then that's bad for him.

In addition to using campaign funds for illegal activity.

There’s also that charity that he misuses. That is a crime.

The 2020 election will be here and gone before anything could be done against Trump, especially because of the glacial pace of the Mueller investigation. It's silly to do or think about anything other than focus on 2020.

IDK, R30, after he has incited someone, he’s moved pretty fast. And an inditement for Trump and others could come at any time. I mean, considering the men indicted so far, and their guilty pleas or Manifort’s conviction.

R29 And that's a state crime, not federal. Trump can't pardon himself and his kids out of it.

Well the Russians wanted something in exchange for the 'dirt' on Hillary.

Sharing intelligence with a hostile foreign country in exchange for easing sanctions, I am sure isn't legal.

I believe he is making a lock tight case against Trump and his family. I truly believe his sons will take the fall for him and we will pardon them.

I heard there was a question as to whether Trump could pardon someone who was effectively a co-conspirator, for the same reason that you can’t pardon yourself. It doesn’t seem to be a winning argument, to me.

Maybe Mueller has a plan to indite Trump’s children after he is impeached?

Indict, for heaven's sake.

Is the OP a troll or just stupid? Or did he not follow the extensive coverage of all this months and months ago?

Of greater import: where the HELL is the latest Mueller thread?

R37

THANK YOU, R38!!

[quote] Indict, for heaven's sake.

There is something very wrong with this word. A silent “c”? Com’on! Or should I say “‘’Om’on”?

R26, actually it was proven a few years ago that Nixon did sabotage the Paris Peace Talks which extended the war and resulted in many more deaths. That was an act of treason and I wish to fuck he had been held accountable.

Thank you, R41. I was referring to the variety of crimes we collectively call “Watergate”.

I’d have to see the evidence to accept that Nixon sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks. I’m skeptical, but am open to being convinced.

Here you go, r42.

Google the etymology, r40.

R42, Rachel Maddow aired a documentary about it last week. All about the Paris peace talks about how Nixon sabotaged them to continue the war.

Typical defense for guilty people.

He didn't do it. And even if he did and you can prove it, it's not illegal.

Nice try, OP.

I thought it was a piss-poor try , R46.

Did we mention trafficking in stolen goods?

Illegal breaking and entering?

Identify theft?

Money laundering?

Accessory after the fact?

Lying to Congress and the FBI?

Purgery, obstruction of justice?

Campaign finance law breaking?

I’m just a layman and I identified all these things off the top of my head.

Remember that paper that Trump dictated to Hope Hicks on Air Force One about the reason for the Trump Tower meeting? Probably a lot of crimes in that.

They have now established Trump has been talking to Putin since at least 2016. Trump has admitted it himself and brushed it off forgetting he lied and said "I have never met him and have nothing to do with Russia in business).