THE STAIRCASE on Netflix

Netflix added 3 new episodes to the preexisting series, not 5.

Older discussion.

Hot lawyers? Hotter sons? ...and in what parallel universe was that escort sexy?

I lived in the Triangle when this happened. Had friends who would see Peterson cruise the local Y (apparently one of the sons was a big “starer” too). He was always thought of as an oddball.I think one of the sons called in a bomb threat to Duke.

R3, that reminds me of the Friedman family from “Capturing the Friedmans”. Crazy people.

The escort looked like the very low rent version of Todd Peterson. Odd!

When the husband is acting SHOCKED that a man said he had sex with him:

"Ooooooooh, Miss Thing! Miss Thing! Why, mercy me, isn't that the silliest thing you ever did hear? I mean, BYE FELICIA! Oooooooooh, girl! Like I would ever let a hot, hunky long, throbbing dick inside my mussy! Whatevs!!!!!!"

Are both sons still straight?

Is the one daughter still estranged from the other siblings?

I would let those sons throw me down a staircase -- if they agreed to fuck me first!

so, you guys think he did it or not?

Of course he did.

R9, he’s a sinister fuck. Yes, he did it.

Peterson gives me Robert Durst vibes.

I've never faltered from thinking he is guilty over the course of the documentary. The filmmakers obviously want the audience to believe he is innocent, but he totally killed her.

Years ago, I read on a Reddit thread that MP and Kathleen were rumored to be swingers in Durham. What if MP and that weirdo German wife were swingers with the Ratliffs? And each couple bore a child from across the couple lines. That would have entangled them forever-- if Margaret were MP's and Clay Peterson were the son of Mr Ratliff and Mrs Peterson.

The escort was obviously coached /paid (?) by the defense.

" Yes, he paid me for sex but he said he LOVED his wife ."

Normally I love true crime stories and have probably seen every Dateline, 20/20, etc ever made - I've even seen one that focused specifically on this case - but I can't believe someone bankrolled 10+ hrs of documentary for this story.

Its a riveting and interesting story, but that's overkill, if you'll pardon the pun.

Putting aside the new evidence about the DA's blood expert's lies in other cases, most of the evidence that was presented in the request for a new trial was evidence available for rebuttal at the actual trial.

Peterson's attorney had the textbook to rebut the testimony. So he knew the witness he called at the hearing for a retrial and should have called him (and the other blood expert) at the trial. He also could have investigated the DA's blood expert's previous experience.

While I was generally impressed with this attorney, it seems like malpractice not to a provided any of this rebuttal evidence at the trial. Especially as the First Degree conviction relied solely on the testimony of the blood expert. Even without knowing he was shady, he knew he was incompetent and not adhering to standards.

Peterson never seemed angry that he was being falsely accused of killing someone he loved.

That seemed very telling to me.

He also seemed very manipulative, like he thought he was so much smarter than everyone else.

I'm still not convinced either way about MP, and that's a week after watching the entire series.

For me his innocence is greatly supported by the undying and unquestioning love of his 2 daughters and 2 sons, and they know him far better than we do. While that's not evidence of any kind, it speaks volumes.

Yet MP's demeanor is so fucking unappealing and even creepy. He always seemed to chuckle over every down turn the case would take, and that was true over all those years. He just appeared to be resigned to the fact that he would be convicted.

MY VERDICT: Innocent by way of having a scorching hot son in the First Degree.

How do documentarians get involved in cases like this? Obviously, when they signed on they had no idea of the coming twists and turns.

The Owl theory

I'm surprised Peterson's attorney allowed the filming.

It risked voiding attorney/client privilege.

It was also subjecting his client to unnecessary risk of incrimination/humiliation.

What if the DA had gotten hands on the footage?

The owl theory looks mighty good to me.

R23 - when a third-party is present, the client-attorney privilege is gone. The third party can be questioned. Apparently the filmmaker sent his raw footage immediately to a safe drop in Paris.

R24 - the Owl Theory is brilliant!

My sister makes up Owl Theory excuses as to why she’s late for work or needs a day off. If truth is stranger than fiction...

She should work for a defense attorney, making up excuses. She comes up with crazy scenarios that make you say “you can’t make this shit up. It has to be true.”

Planned from day one

Son Todd appears to be in San Diego

Maybe? It is a common name...doesn’t look like him, although i’ve Never seen him smiling. Looks gay in photo, making himself president of a non company smacks of MP. No one mentioned his mother Patty from the doc...she was off. MP seems like a cult leader in his family. Diehard devotion. Anyone else could read him quickly.

R19 Yet other people have been shocked! when it turns out their father killed their mother. Blind loyalty does not make innocence.

I am also entirely convinced that Peterson was guilty. What I wondered was whether Rudolph actually believed the shit he was trying to sell. The other MP lawyer in the Staircase was one of the lawyers who defended Steven Avery in Making a Murderer.

I am also 95 percent sure that I saw MP and a very femmy guy, clearly together, in a restaurant in downtown Manhattan. I’ve always believed he was a gay guy who married women for money, as opposed to a bisexual guy in an open marriage. Clearly money was his MO with Kathleen.

I used to feel bad for the “adopted” daughters who were obviously emotionally scarred from so much loss that they deluded themselves into believeing MP didn’t kill both of these women. But I rewatched Staircase and now just find them smug and gross, like mini MPs.

What are the odds that the same man would lose both wives to falls down staircases? The idea that an owl was responsible in the second case is laughable. Who are these jury members that fall for such hokum?

I will always wonder why he killed Liz. I’ve always assumed he was having an affair with her or that she knew he was having an affair with a man. No way any of his wives were ok with him banging guys he met online.

Er, the jury found him guilty deal r32. The guilty verdict was eventually vacated because of corruption of the state's blood splatter analysis. Michael Peterson pleaded guilty with a time served sentence.

[quote]For me his innocence is greatly supported by the undying and unquestioning love of his 2 daughters and 2 sons, and they know him far better than we do. While that's not evidence of any kind, it speaks volumes.

His daughter Caitlin originally tried to believe him, but looking at the crime scene photos and learning that he was secretly banging escorts on the side she was forced to follow her heart and walk away from the rest of the family.

The difference with Caitlin, of course, is that she was Patti's actual daughter.

Children almost always support the innocence of the living parent.

The concept of losing both parents is just too crushing to fathom. Remember, Caitlyn has extended family unlike Liz's kids,

But Caitlyn did lose her stepsisters which I believe was painful for her.

Bingewatching The Staircase is the perfect way to celebrate Father's Day!

R36 I think you mean Kathleen.

Whilst I think Peterson is guilty in the death of Kathleen I'm not totally sold on him being guilty in the Liz Ratcliff case, I think that might have provided inspiration as to how to stage an accident though. Ratcliff's death was almost immediately accepted as an accident and no further questions were asked, maybe he thought the same would happen here. He needed Kathleen's death to be accidental to get the maximum life insurance payout.

Just for a bit of balance though, falls can cause a veritable bloodbath as seen in the linked article. Although the Peterson stairs were not as steep and the evidence suggests she only fell down maybe 3 steps. I still think he isn't telling the whole truth about what occurred that night for various reasons but bad falls do happen which introduces an element of doubt.

The daughters were left to him if Liz dies, per her will, and money...700K I think? Patty was bizarre too....why did the girls go to him in US? And not stay with her and her sons in Germany?

Margaret Ratliff, who is the daughter of Peterson's first alleged victim and whom Peterson adopted, looks bizarrely like him. I suspected she might actually have been his bio-daughter but apparently the prosecution did some kind of paternity or DNA test and determined that was not the case.

I think he done it.

But I also think his trial was a shitshow. The blood spatter "expert" turned out to be charlatan who lied about his credentials and peddled junk science, and the prosecution team, particularly the female prosecutor, were extremely homophobic.

I hate to see a murderer go free but given the shenanigans at the trial, I think releasing him was the right call.

I watched The Staircase years ago. Can I just watch the new episodes or has the whole thing been re-edited?

Trivia: Brent the escort ended up in the Indianapolis cast of Naked Boys Singing when he moved back to his home state.

MP guilty for me, too. 1. throat damage indicative of strangulation (or attempt) 2. footprint on K's pants leg 3. bizarre coincidence of two stairway deaths in his life 4. his sister's letter online stating she believes him guilty and citing his temper, for one reason 5. his chronic lies and cheating 6. incessant narcissism including willingness to let film crew into the case

R28 Yep, that's him. Remember MP saying to Todd in the jailhouse-- I mean he hasn't seen his son in forever and wouldn't good dads say Hello, son on something approaching love-- but first thing MP says is "Nice teeth." That's all I could think of. Did Todd get new teeth? Why? Was MP jealous of his son? So yes, that's Todd. I can tell by the teeth.

r45 I re-watched the whole thing and the earlier episodes appear to be the same.

Todd Peterson looked like a Greek god.

I'm on the fence about his guilt/innocence, but I have seen people take some REALLY nasty spills while shitfaced. And she WAS shitfaced. Lots of wine and valium.

She had a blood alcohol content of .07, she still would be considered legally able to drive, not what you would classify as shit-faced.

Wait, I mustve missed the "hot lawyers", bc I saw NO HOT lawyers, sons or anyone else.

Remember when the interviewer asked one of the daughters if Kathleen and Michael ever fought, and she said the only thing they ever fought about was him coming home late from "the gym". Now why would she be upset about that unless she suspected something? Also somebody posted up thread about his reaction to being told that a man said he had sex with Michael numerous times. That was so cringe worthy! His voice goes up an octave and then he asks where it took place. Dude who the fuck cares WHERE it happened? What a stupid thing to ask and so obvious he was deflecting. I'd like to know when the son found out about the gay cruising, because it seemed like he already knew. Just like Michael's brother knew from when they were boys.

I remember watching some years ago Dateline on YouTube about this case and thinking: yeah he is def guilty. Then a few days ago I watched the docu and felt that maybe he was not guilty. The docu, I think is very biased and it made me change my mind. But then I watched other crime shows and heard the bbc podcast and now I’m sure he is guilty. Micahel is very narssistic and has a way of manipulating people. Sociopaths can be very charming. Too bad the state had Deaver as an expert, a crooked horrible person who should be put in jail for the harm he made to other people( ex. Greg Tylor case)

He’s got a very Robert Durst vibe. A sort of little-boy duper’s-delight.

Analysis of her brain revealed the presence of red neurons that suggest she had been alive for 45-120 minutes after her blood loss began - a neuropathologist testified that in his experience 120 minutes was the minimum she was alive for after her initial blood loss

The two paramedics who responded to the call arrived ten minutes after his initial call and both noted that the blood was very dry when they arrived

He's admittedly an odd man, but he didn't do it. He was doomed the minute word got out about his secret homo trysts; there was no way that homophobic southern jury wasn't going to condemn him for that alone.

Someone close to me (a severe alcoholic) has suffered major falls and they are bloodier and messier than most of the public realizes.

There were three people in this documentary who made an impression on me:

1) Freda Black, the assistant DA ("pure-T FILTH!"), constantly arching her brows, rolling here eyes and dripping with judgement in her cross-examinations and summation, all while wearing Joan Crawford shoulder pads and -'30's-era hair. She was a like an SNL character come to life and dropped into a Carolina courtroom. Interesting that she apparently was fired from the DA's office and was busted twice for DUI. Her latest mugshot is tragic; she's barely recognizable due to the ravages of booze and bloat.

2) David Rudolf. God help me, I found him sexy as hell. I identified with him the most, too, trying to mount an effective defense for an extremely unsympathetic client. And he obviously did NOT believe MP was guilty, as his work in 2011 to get a new trial was pro bono. That wouldn't be the case if he thought his client was a murderer.

And not for nothing, but a bumpkin North Carolina jury had a built-in resentment of a New York Jew, and no one on Peterson's team ever seemed to realize or acknowledge this.

3) Todd Peterson. My God, the camera loved him. Almost as much as he loved himself. Did anyone else catch all the self-tanner in his courtroom appearances during the first trial? He's pretty stunning. What do we know about him? Gay? He was certainly as narcissistic as his father! DL sleuths, get busy!

[quote]He was doomed the minute word got out about his secret homo trysts; there was no way that homophobic southern jury wasn't going to condemn him for that alone.

It is not homophobic to think that a guy who was cheating on his wife with rentboys did not have a perfect loving marriage as he tried to portray.

R57 W&W! I thought David was sexy too.

I'll third David Rudolf's sexiness! What a mensch.

Pure-T filth?

How big was Peterson’s dick?

[quote]He's admittedly an odd man, but he didn't do it.

He absolutely a million percent did it. Sorry.

R57 I am curious what your take is on the blood being dry.

[quote]Someone close to me (a severe alcoholic) has suffered major falls and they are bloodier and messier than most of the public realizes.

Interesting how these extremely bloody "accidental" falls follow Peterson around wherever he goes and usually happen to women whom are in the way of something Peterson wants.

who.

I thought David Rudolf was sexy too!

Normally I would think Michael Peterson was guilty, but some of the lacerations on her head do look like they were made by talons, and they found microscopic owl feathers in her hair.

David Rudolf is ugly as sin.

Michael Peterson slips up in the final episode, anyone else notice? He says that he found her, then went up to get towels, then called 911. Realizing oh shit that sounds bad, he tries to backpedals and says that he must have called 911 first.

The simple truth is all the facts say that Kathleen's body was there for a while before he called 911.

He did it. It's been years since I watched the documentary, but I remember how sly and devious he came across. Michael Peterson was a pure sociopath who killed his wife because of money. She also knew he was cheating on her with rentboys.

Not the final ep, I think it was ep 12*

Also I don't think was mentioned here but Michael's sons were in debt up to their eyebrows. They were struggling to even make their interest payments. I wonder if he had asked her for money to help them and she told him no.

Kathleen Peterson had a $1.4 million life insurance policy, that house was hers, $300k ish in retirement, car was hers. Michael Peterson himself had no real source of income. Her "accidental" death presents a huge financial boon to him.

Is he indigent because all his money went to David Rudolph?

Wasn't one of the theories of why he snapped due to her accessing his computer and finding the messages between him and the rentboys he'd been hooking up with. Apparantly she was also the main breadwinner; while Peterson himself had no real income.

I think she wanted a divorce and when she confronted him, MP snapped and beat her to death. The prosecution also theorised that he staged the fall down the stairs, and that's why it took him so long to call the paramedics.

R74 But what about the lack of "over spray" or "cast off" of the blood, particularly on the ceiling? If a beating took place, there would have been some.

I can't remember all the details, r75. I haven't watch the documentary in years. However, I do remember one of the detectives alleging he beat her unconscious with a poker first.

R76 Right. I saw that too. The problem is neither of the scenarios (the prosecution or the defense) make sense with the evidence, like the lack of spray on the ceiling . I would like to know what really happened.

[quote]Is he indigent because all his money went to David Rudolph?

Well because he was found guilty of murder so he never got her life insurance policy, it went to Caitlin. He did get the money in her 401k. But yes, David Rudolf is an expensive attorney and murder trials are pricey. It would have cost him hundreds of thousands.

Also note, Caitlin was awarded a 25 mil civil suit against Michael Peterson. If he ever had money, it would have to go to her.

The fewer rich people, the better.

One of the more preposterous scenes was when Liz’s daughters were pathetically defending their obviously guilty “adoptive” father. One of the girls said she had absolutely no reaction to hearing that her dad as cheating on her “mom” with rent boys - she just took that tidbit in stride.

No way, no way. Even if they thought he might be gay or bi, I don’t buy that they weren’t surprised that he was cheating on their mom AND with rent boys he picked up on the Internet.

I get it. Their biological parents are long dead, Michael is all they had. They don't want to believe he would do it, that is destroying the only family they have left. It is easier to buy into this being a great injustice against a man they love rather than let themselves think the worst. Do they then have to think this man who adopted and raised them killed their bio mom as well? It is a dark road to go down. They made their choice to stick by him.

Did the documentary mention Kathleen's broken hyoid bone in her neck or was that left out like so many other details? It's a horseshoe-shaped bone that is used as an indicator of strangulation or being throttled when found during autopsy.

Wasn't their house the same one used in the Handmaid's Tale movie?

I had no idea that Michael Peterson was not the breadwinner? What did the murdered wife do for a living? I am a dope, I thought Michael was a successful author? They live in a nice home.

And I thought 2002 David Rudolf was cute too. Sexy. Funny. Kind of like Michael Lembeck in the 80's.

That Freda Black NEEDS her own show! Drunk with Freda!

Kathleen was an executive at Nortel, at one time it was a successful tech company but the dotcom bubble hit it hard. Before she died they were very worried she was going to lose her job at Nortel, and her stock options already weren't worth as much as they used to be.

But yes, she was the breadwinner, his sugarmama basically. Michael Peterson had written some books but those weren't bringing in much in the way of money by then.

A letter from Ann Christensen, Michael Peterson's sister. If you are interested in the case it is a must read.

She started off thinking he was innocent, and had to accept the more obvious explanation was in front of her...he was guilty.

Much like the OJ trial, one wonders how long the trial would've lasted if all things were equal (same exact evidence) but the defendant had no money. Maybe two days?

I nominate Freda Black for DL Icon Status!

R87, exactly. Same with the two dead queens in Houston. Such BS.

Thanks for posting that article by MP's sister, r86.

It's mind-boggling to me how the sister was somehow not a part of the documentary. Never even mentioned that MP had a sister.

The documentary fails to disclose that Michael Peterson was romantically involved with the editor of the documentary. They never disclose it over the series, and only admitted it after they just broke up (after they kept getting asked about by people who suspected that was going on).

I am on episode 8 of The Staircase. I don’t recall anyone mentioning that Kathleen had a broken hyoid bone in her neck. That fact changes everything.

r9 here. i also totally think he did it and agree with r16 that it's waaaaaay too many hours devoted to a guy's defense merely because he was banging one of the editors.

but if you've already watched it i recommend NBC's trial and error, a sitcom that pokes fun at crime docs and is based on the case. watched it all in one sitting. it's from the same people that made parks and rec if i recall correctly.

The editor looks like Kathleen, who looked like Elizabeth who looked like Patti, he really does have a type.

I don't think it is ever mentioned r92. The documentary has a clear bias of wanting to show the miscarriage of justice against Michael Peterson. It is not some impartial production whatsoever.

What about when the loud sister found his old writings detailing the feelings one has after killing someone? It was presented as fiction but seemed very "If I Did It" by OJ.

An owl.

Oh, my sides.

That was a Hail Mary if ever there was one. Of course he killed her.

When I tried to take the owl theory seriously as a possibility, I was left with the fact there would be a trial of blood from the outside where said owl attacked her to the inside of the house. There was not a trial of blood.

trail*

[quote]And not for nothing, but a bumpkin North Carolina jury had a built-in resentment of a New York Jew, and no one on Peterson's team ever seemed to realize or acknowledge this.

That's not true. There is a scene where he is told that the jury thinks he's just a "slick lawyer." I took that as a bit coded.

That link is old r28, hadn't been updated in 5 years. Todd Peterson was in Tennesse as of last year.

Todd Peterson is definitely attractive, but I'd bet is just as much as a secret sociopath of his father. Very telling that quote of "if there is any blood or anything on this blowpoke I can go throw it in Jordan lake"

Clayton Peterson got in trouble for bringing a pipe bomb to Duke University and served a few years in prison.

Here is a where are the now thing.

An old duke chronicle link about Clayton Peterson.

R57 Your prejudices are showing in the same way you accuse the dumb homophobic jury/locals.

How is it homophobic for a woman to freak out when she learns that her husband is spending money on rent boys while the family is deeply in debt and he job as the sole provider is not secure? Do you believe that if a wife learns that her husband is cheating with a woman, she has a right to be pissed, but if the paramour is a man, she is being homophobic in her anger?

Rudolf was okay(he looks exactly like my psychiatrist Dr Gold, but his teeth were unsightly.

In the linked article at r101 it says that Clayton was the older brother and that Todd has 2 sons.

Are those true statements?

The owl theory is insane but how can we explain the presence of the micro-feathers?

[103] The teeth drove me crazy. I’m sure it wasn’t a financial matter.

Clayton has two sons.

Wow to the article from R102. If Clayton had been a POC, chances are he would have been up on terrorism charges.

I haven't read any of the previous posts as I've just started watching episode one. With the amount of blood everywhere, it's obvious even to an amateur detective that Kathleen did not fall down those stairs but was, as the DA said, bludgeoned and bled out.

R86 Yes, thanks for the article. I also had not heard anything about the broken hyoid. I had been on the fence, but no longer. He did it for sure. Creepy bastard.

R105, I didn’t pay close attention to the feather bit. I am a city dweller who has six down pillows on my bed and regularly walks in Central Park. It would not be a shock to me if there were micro-feathers on my person at this very moment.

I’d imagine that someone who lived in a somewhat wooded area and spent time in the garden would have micro-feathers on theirs.

Could they have tested the wounds on her head for bacteria that might live on an owl’s talons?

I think the suggestion was that the micro-feathers they found were inside the cuts to her head and can only come from an owl's talons. Other species don't have the micro-feathers on their talons.

At first I thought it was an outrageous attempt at defence to suggest an owl had attacked her but the presence of the micro-feathers found post-mortem is just so odd. It's almost too ridiculous to be made up.

[quote]it says that Clayton was the older brother and that Todd has 2 sons.

Yes, here are Todd's boys.

Todd lives in Tennessee. Clayton is married with two sons.

Damn

R112, thank you for answering. Well, that makes a bit of sense. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

R113, that's Clayton in the photo with the boys, not Todd. That Facebook poster is mistaken.

The info about Michael”s sons was on the internet listing where and what they were up too.

"What are the odds that the same man would lose both wives to falls down staircases?"

The first woman was a friend, not his wife

There are numerous problems with the owl theory as I see it.

The only evidence of there being an owl are from *microscopic* feather particles that were in her hair. To me this easily could have just gotten acquired in her hair at some point. There were no owl feathers in the back yard or on her person or anything, the basis are these microscopic particles.

Lets try to think this through. An owl attacked her, she did not scream or do anything that alerted Michael, since he had no idea an owl attacked her even though they were both supposed to be hanging in their backyard. How is it possible that Michael was completely unaware that an owl had swooped in and was attacking his wife?

There are only a couple small droplets of blood they could actually find outside. There was no blood on the exterior of the door (only the interior) All the real blood is inside, if said owl attacked her, why is there practically no blood outside?

So I have a friend who works at the Durham Whole Foods. He has bagging staff who are autistic placements and one day as he's standing at a register one of his baggers exclaims, "Hey I know you! You're that guy who murdered his wife!!"

An owl? NO! The black kid did it!

AKA Lindsay Lohan Defence™

I thought they said the micro-feathers, specifically found only on owl talons, were found inside the lacerations on her skull and that the only way they could have got in there was through an owl attack.

Obviously it's an odd theory and I agree it doesn't really add up but it's intriguing.

[quote]I thought they said the micro-feathers, specifically found only on owl talons, were found inside the lacerations on her skull

Not quite. Kathleen Peterson was clutching a clump of her hair in her left hand. It seemed she had been gripping at her bleeding scalp at some point before she died. It was there they originally found a microscopic owl feather. Further examination some years later found two additional microscopic owl feathers in that clump of hair.

So, how many people here would opt to RUN IN THE HOUSE after an owl attack instead of running back to where you KNOW your spouse is waiting to help?

I would definitely run inside my house to escape an owl, especially if Michael Peterson was my husband.

Nope, I fucking HATE North Carolina.

11:08 p.m. Helen Prislinger, Kathleen;s co-worker, spoke to her on the phone. The last person other than Michael to do so. At 11:53 p.m. she sent Kathleen an email to Michael Peterson’s e-mail address

Kathleen had accidently left her laptop at work. She usually did not use their home computer or that email account, and had to ask Michael Peterson what the email address was according to Helen.

Kathleen never opened the attachment even though she had a work conference call the next day. Probably Kathleen was at the computer read Peterson’ e-mails and found evidences of a homosexual relations with male prostitutes. That confrontation led to her death.

It wasn't called into 911 until 2:40. That long period her body was there is consistent with rest of the evidence.

I also think Todd Peterson potentially may have been involved with helping his Dad about what to do. Todd is serendipitously is at the house 3am at the same time as the first responders, supposedly shocked to find out that Kathleen is dead.

Also note. Both Michael and Todd were extremely uncooperative with the police that night.

Wow R128! Yeah, Staircase is very biased. Did Todd still live at home at the time? I had a very similar moment of "discovery" with a boyfriend. He was acting really weird, falling asleep in a chair on the porch all night and being obsessive with his phone. One morning I walked out to find him asleep in the chair again and I looked at his phone. He had been on Grinder. When I asked him if he was gay he raised his fist as if he was going to punch me. I had known him for 8 years at this point and he had NEVER been violent before. He didn't hit me (I told him if he did I would call the cops), but me finding out his secret scared him to death. I believe R128 is exactly right.

Yes, Kathleen's sister is depicted as a real harridan (and there is something bitchy about her, I'm sorry but there is), but I think I'd be completely enraged that my sister's murder trail had been fucked up as badly as it was by the local police, who were dead set on railroading a man who was guilty as fuck already, and equally enraged that a documentary decided to follow the story from the perspective of my sister's murderer.

And owl did not do this, lol sorry gays.

"murder trial"

[quote]Did Todd still live at home at the time?

I'm not sure if he was living in that house at the time. I would just clarify this was not really his "home". Him and Clayton were largely raised with their mother Patty actually, unlike the Ratcliff girls.

What I do know from is according to what came out in the trial is that he was at a party with this married girl and had brought her back to the house in hopes of having sex with her.

[quote]In a surprising moment Monday, the prosecutor asked Borden a question that seemed to jolt the courtroom. Was he aware, Black asked, that Todd Peterson was having an affair with a woman described in police reports as his girlfriend? The judge struck the question from the record after the defense objected that no evidence had been presented that indicated Todd Peterson and the married woman, Christine Tomassetti, were anything more than friends who went to a party with a large group of people. Black said outside the presence of the jury that Todd Peterson told members of Kathleen Peterson's family that he intended to have sex with Tomassetti at his father's home that night. Todd Peterson sat forward in his chair in the front row of the gallery but did not otherwise react to the salacious exchange.

It's hard for me to believe that Todd and Martha aren't biological siblings. The shots of them sitting beside each other in the courtroom--they look like twins.

Freda Black sounds JUST like Amy Sedaris' character, Patty Hogg!

In the documentary, Michael talks in the end how to be bisexual or gay, it was a very guarded secret in his life. I believe that the death of Kathleen was a mixture between her finding his mails, economic problems (life insurance) and the anger problem and narcissism of Michael.

It's a tragic story all around, no mistake about it.

This BBC podcast is very good. There is a chapter that they interview Michael and the only thing he does, when asked valid things, is deflect deflect deflect. He does not know how to respond and he only mentions that people should watch the documentary Staircase (of course, because it is a very biased documentary in favor for him). Such a narcissist. Listen to the whole podcast I found it very interesting and good, they interviewed a lot of key players.

^^^totally agree R137 You can't really say you know much about the case unless you listen to the podcast too.

So like the British to do their own version, r137, just to outdo the French, lol.

What perspective does the podcast take? I think it's safe to say that the documentary film is very sympathetic to Michael.

16 50-minute episodes. Quite the investment, but I'll put it on my list.

In the BBC podcast they interview neighbors, Judge Hudson, the DA Hardin, Kathleen sister ( where she talks about how nice was her sister, memories about her, etc) the detective Holland, David Rudolf, Michael Peterson, some juries of the trial, journalist, etc. If you watch The staircase, you could say this podcast is the counterpart. Not biased for the prosecution or against Mike, but more in tune on the facts for the conviction.

I think my reticence I think it is so plain that Peterson is guilty that the case becomes less interesting (silly for me to say I guess considering how much posting on this thread I have done).

But the best true crime stories are more of a great mystery. To me it is clear he did it and why he did it.

I thought the same thing, R124.

^R134

I’m looking forward to listening to the podcast. There were to many details that weren’t introduced during the trial. It amazes me that he had a relationship with one of the employees working on the documentary. He’s involved in possibly 2 murders and his relationships with escorts. She must have seen something in Michael that I sure as heck didn’t see. Gay or straight he doesn’t do a thing for me!

I've just binged the first three episodes. This reminds me so much of the Dr. Jeffrey Macdonald case. A prominent man, a secret life of serial infidelity, a whole lot of anger and self-perception issues. I was waiting for the defense team to come up with an intruder scenario.

Looking at Michael Peterson’s skin freaks me out.

Michael Peterson reminded me of a kid that got bullied all the time.

One character that we haven't talked about here is MP's friend Ron Guerette. Not sure I'm getting the name exactly right but he's the older white haired gent who was always at MP's side during the trial and apparently was a private detective. I don't recall him ever being interviewed.

What was his participation in the trial all about? Was he just a family friend or someone more officially involved in the defense?

He was hired by the defence R149 an ex cop turned PI.

R108 Not at Duke he wouldn't.

Finished the first 8 episodes. Fascinating series. Man, they don't fuck around in North Carolina. Guilty, life without possibility of parole, next case!

1st degree murder was pretty over-the-top. I would have thought 2nd degree would have made more sense especially with the motive the prosecution was pushing.

I wonder if it was the same clever owl who garroted poor JonBenet . . .

[quote]Freda Black — As an assistant district attorney on the case, Black is perhaps best remembered for her closing arguments, delivered in a molasses-thick Southern accent. She memorably described the pornography found in Peterson's home as "pure-T filth." Since the trial, Black has run two unsuccessful campaigns for Durham district attorney, in 2006 and 2008. In 2010, she ran unsuccessfully for a seat on the Durham district court bench. Twice since 2012, Black has faced driving while impaired charges in Durham and Orange County. Her 2012 arrest warrant showed she was working at the Durham Cleaners then.

Take that, you homophobic bitch.

Mrs Patsy Ramsey makes me laugh nearly every time.

R156, I was just thinking the same! I never tire of Patsy's insights into the human condition.

r155, glad to know the homophobic witch isn't doing so well

MP was probably extremely hot in his 30s.

I can't tell if he's guilty or innocent. I doubt if any of you really can either.

Based on pictures I've seen MP was an attractive young man. I wonder if he hooked up with guys in 'Nam

I started listening to the podcast. It’s very sleazy.

Binged the documentary, listened to the podcast and this is my theory:

Michael Peterson bludgeoned Kathleen to death. Michael then handed the murder weapon, the shirt he was wearing when he killed Kathleen and a burner phone to Todd and/or Clayton and told them to get rid of them and he did not want to know where. That's why no blood stains were found on his shirt. I'm guessing he had a burner phone that he used for his hook-ups on which he called Todd and/or Clayton directly after he murdered Kathleen, so that the police could not ascertain exactly when he called them.

That makes a lot of sense R162

I think Clayton was out of state, it was Todd who was around that night. I think the two boys know what's up but I think the two adopted girls have some form of Stockholm Syndrome.

[quote]Michael Peterson slips up in the final episode, anyone else notice?

That's not the only slip up, r70. In an early episode he said Kathleen knew he hooked up with men and even joked about hot military guys on some Army base all being secretly gay. Later he says she and he didn't talk about it much but they had an understanding. In the final episode he says she didn't know at all, officially, but "she must have known."

R160 There was a definite undercurrent of gossip in the UMC Durham cocktail party circuit that MP had had a relationship with the Ratliff husband of the woman he killed in Germany. Not necessarily a passionate one on one "in love" relationship, but more like fuck buddies.

That is one of the reasons that I cannot get rid of the feeling that the fact that the cause of death of Ratliff has some at least tangential connection to the case. Something which the judge felt might unduly prejudice the jury. Again, I realize that MP did not kill Ratliff.

[164] I also caught his slip up. His sons kept fairly quiet after her death. The girls were much more vocal. Which makes sense if the boys knew what the real story was.

His timeline doesn't make sense.

He said they sat by the pool and talked.

She went up to bed before him.

Then he went to bed.

He would have seen her body on the stairs because he would have used those stairs to go up to bed.

But he didn't make the 911 call until the middle of the night.

[quote]Which makes sense if the boys knew what the real story was.

It is obvious that Todd doesn't care if he killed her or not, he just wants to defend Michael. Michael's brother was the same way.

It is definitely just the daughters who truly have to believe he must be innocent.

R167 I believe you are somewhat confused.

Did you watch the entirety of the original The Staircase? If you did, your statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I don't care to retell the entire tale in order to clarify things, but I recommend that you watch it.

From R86’s link:

“Mike e-mailed me several times about Kathleen's daughter Caitlin. He complained about how greedy she was, how she was trying to get hold of Kathleen's life insurance, and how she wanted to put up a gaudy marker on Kathleen's grave. “

LOL! Mike MUST have been a Datalounger!!!

R129, NEVER confront a deeply closeted man about their homosexuality. Big mistake. They can and some will hurt you, or even kill you. It’s best to just casually break up for other reasons, like being really depressed, or ANYTHING OTHER than them. Even if you don’t say anything, they will initially panic and suspect you know. Stay on course, and stick to an alternative answer for the breakup.

My girlfriend confronted her ex husband about his “secret life”, and he beat the living shit out of her.

It doesn't seem that he was closeted.

His brother speaks very matter-of-factly about him being bi.

I do bet, however, that his getting fucked by prostitutes was a secret.

And who knows what else she would when she used his computer?

Maybe emails about drugs.

Or a video with someone squealing "More fudge, Daddy! More fudge!" while writhing on an orange shag carpet.

And his brother is the only person interviewed that apparently knew this.

The kids didn't know, their friends didn't know. He was a closet case. Michael can't even seem to keep his story straight whether Kathleen was supposed to know.

And it isn't like Michael was just bisexual, he was actively communicating with rentboys about meeting up. Kathleen left her first husband over him cheating on her.

I never trusted a single thing he said after his acting shocked that a man had accused him of hooking up with him.

R171 Thanks. I actually had that thought run through my mind for days after watching The Staircase. I got lucky he just was not a violent person deep down. I was honestly more shocked by that raised fist than what I discovered on his phone. Good advice though.

R175 Me too. I actually started laughing and said (out loud to the TV) Yeah, you did it you lying fuck. I also couldn't help but think he ENJOYED someone, especially another man, finding out. He was positively titillated in that clip.

After seeing the amount of blood from the so called falling down the stairs tragedy there is no way Michael’s shirt didn’t have blood stains. He placed towels under her head. How did he lift her head without getting blood all over his clothes?

R86 Great find and a great read! Wow...

MP seemed to me just a totally lying scumbag from the first minute. But at the end, when he gets all misty and sentimental, he starts talking about how in the olden days men had to hide their bisexuality and would he have made different choices today (ie. be gay) and that he hadn't had that much experience, blah, blah, blah. He used that line with Brad, too. So is that a thing? Acting like a virgin? I remember some scandal about a gay man who knew MP well who died mysteriously after the trial, and now I can't find the story. There seem to be rumors that he was sexual partner of George Ratliff, and we know he "went to the gym" in Germany. So what's the truth?

I'm sure he's had more dicks in him than a urinal at Yankee Stadium.

"I remember some scandal about a gay man who knew MP well who died mysteriously after the trial, and now I can't find the story."

Sounds juicy

^ did he happen to die in an unfortunate fall down a flight of stairs?

The Staircase also kills!?!? I thought I was the only killer.

R86's link provides additional information not included or shown in the documentary, i.e., MP's arrogance (shared by his sister Ann in her "hicks who don't understand my brother's intelligence and culture" comment) and rather nasty demeanor/temper and anger issues when challenged or confronted. Which leads me to believe that Kathleen confronted MP about his sexuality and hook-ups, no doubt a simmering issue of contention, perhaps threatened him with divorce, which of course would mean the loss of his home/lifestyle/financial support, which pushed him well beyond whatever emotional/mental boundaries he'd erected for himself. He snapped and, in a fit of unbound rage, murdered Kathleen.

I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere as to why MP and his first wife Patty divorced?

[quote]I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere as to why MP and his first wife Patty divorced?

I assumed it was because he grew tired of being married to John Lennon, du weißt was ich meine.

If you’re bi, tell your wife BEFORE you marry her. I think men underestimate how open minded plenty of women can be.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind if my partner or husband was bi. Arrangements can be made, with boundaries and parameters, such as condoms - hello! It’s actually not that big of a deal. You want to hook up with men too? OK, let’s talk about how this goes down.

Tell your partner. They can make an informed choice, and might even want to join in on the fun!

MP was motivated into this marriage by money. But they seemed to have a decent relationship, according to those around them. She might have gone for it! You never know, unless you tell your partner. If you’re bi, find a partner who is too, or one who doesn’t mind that you are.

There’s absolutely no reason nowadays to live in the closet.

This didn't happen "nowadays," this was a relationship from the 1980s. Middle Americans didn't tell each other if they were bi or closeted. That was the domain of swingers, artistic types, rock stars and libertines, not everyday folks.

He didn't tell her. I think she may have suspected because of the arguments over him going to the gym and the shared computer or missing time -- everyone shared computers back then and it was hard to hide what you were doing. But I think one truthful thing he said was that she didn't officially know but still must have known.

It's just too weird that both his wives and the Ratliff woman look so much alike, if you compare the photographs of when MP was with them. They look like sisters. His sons and his adoptive daughters also look alike, as if all are related closely by blood. And, weirdly, I noticed his son's wife looks like them, too. What does it mean?

The sister’s letter at r86 doesn’t really make sense. She started to think he was guilty because he wasn’t nice to her?

I don't think his brother did know he was bi, I think he was just giving the notion that Kathleen knew more plausibility and dismiss the idea it was a big family secret. At one point in the doc MP is talking about discovering his bi side in the army and trying to deal with those feelings yet his brother claims he knew when MP was age 13. It doesn't really add up.

MP is a puzzle, went so downhill in prison, those weird dyed eyebrows, always having expensive things even after losing all his wife's money. All those chances to hook up with guys, and yet he no longer seemed interested in hookups once behind bars. It's almost like he was only interested in gay hookups if he was involved in a committed relationship with a woman. Before he went to prison, hooking up with inmates on the sly seemed to be his wet dream. Noticed that after his release, he went back to dying his eyebrows, and claimed to be "indigent" yet his apartment was tastefully decorated with expensive items and he was driving a nice new car.

I think the brother may have known or suspected long before MP was able to come to grips with it. But I don’t believe MP outright told anyone until he had to.

[quote]She started to think he was guilty because he wasn’t nice to her?

It seems like it reminded her of how controlling and belligerent he could, that he had a nasty temper. These things can be easy forget if you don't spend a lot of time with the person. And what really led her to believe he is guilty is when she learned about the physical evidence at the crime scene.

[quote]and claimed to be "indigent" yet his apartment was tastefully decorated with expensive items and he was driving a nice new car.

Michael Peterson has to officially be broke because he owes Caitlin millions of dollars. That is what prevents him from releasing a book about this even though he initially wanted to do so, all the money would go to Caitlin.

I'm sure his brother and Patti are managing to keep him in a comfortable life while he is officially broke.

[quote]I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere as to why MP and his first wife Patty divorced?

I've always wondered this as well.

This is my theory: He was having an affair with the husband of the first wife found at the bottom of the stairs. She found out about it and threatened to go the military. Back then, it would have destroyed his career. So he killed her.

She may have told his wife before he killed her, hence the divorce.

Another possibility not mentioned: I'm sure Kathleen was NOT pleased about the fact that they were having financial problems and MP was still spending money on rent boys.

Was he spending money on rent boys? The hooker who testified (who seemed surprisingly sharp) said they never met.

Was there evidence of him meeting other hookers?

[quote] The hooker who testified (who seemed surprisingly sharp) said they never met

To be fair they only never met because Brad decided he was too tired and didn't show up.

R199 I took that as "polite" for "you're too old, hun."

It's a rentboy, not a grindr hook up, older guys are their bread and butter.

You all seem to be conveniently forgetting that Peterson's first wife Patti supported him during the long trial and and apparently moved back to the US from Germany to be present on the defense's side.

I'm not sure what to believe in the end but there are certain facts that are being left out of the discussion. And I hope we're beyond someone dying their eyebrows to be a cause of guilt.

I was surprised to see this Kathleen only had $300K in her 401K. At her age and position, she should have had much more. They must have been spendthrifts.

[quote]Was he spending money on rent boys?

Considering his standing and visibility in Durham, I'm guessing he had many opportunities to pay for sex, which he alludes to in the email he sent to the rent boy who appeared in the doco:

Brad,

We talked on the phone yesterday and I checked out the website you gave me. You have great reviews and I would like to get together with you. I'm in Durham, just off 15/501, about 10 minutes from Chapel Hill. Daytime is best for me, Tuesday, Wednesday or Friday.

I was in the Marines, love to fuck, suck and rim. Never been fucked and not sure I'm interested. That's the only thing we'd have to negotiate. You said you're a top but that you'd bottomed. I'd really be interested in that.

I've never done escort but used to pay to fuck a super macho guy who played Lacrosse at NC State. You said you're going out to Palm Springs. You going to the Dirk Yates resort? I assume you know about him. From the looks of you, and your background, you should audition.

Mike

My only shock was that Peterson wasn't wearing a wig.

I was sure he was.

But then when he went to prison, it was obviously his real hair.

[quote]love to fuck, suck and rim.

I'm shocked that the assistant DA didn't pull out a poster and tell the jury: "Now, THIS, my friends, is RIMMING! PURE FA-ILTH!"

[quote]Never been fucked and not sure I'm interested. That's the only thing we'd have to negotiate.

Oh, honey . . . Don't play coy. It's a business transaction not OK Cupid.

Another email to Brad, the rent boy. From the tone of his writing, he seems very familiar with the world of paying for sex.

Brad,

Getting back late tonight but want to answer your email. You may really owe me for this. I should get a freebie because this could be a career change for you. Dirk Yates is one of the major figures in the male porn industry--really really big. He has been doing videos of Marines for years. He got started a long time ago in San Diego paying Marines to jack off on film, then such and fuck each other. Thousands of Marines and sailors over the years--mostly straight really great looking guys.

He is a legend in the USMC. There was even a Department of Defense investigation about him. I heard about him when I was stationed in San Diego a long time ago. I knew lots of guys who got paid--"why whack off in the latrine for nothing when Dirk will give you a $100." My favorite line was a buddy who said, "I used to fuck sailors over the shitter on shipboard for zip. Dirk gave me $300 to fuck one on his velvet sofa."

Some of my friends did films for him but I never did (though I was better looking and better hung) because this was way before "Don't ask, don't tell." This was back in "Don't even fucking think about it." Court Martial time! And I wanted to go to law school (UNC) when I got out.

In any case, Dirk grew even bigger in the industry; he's now done probably a thousand films and launched a lot of guys into Falcon and other big studios. His major thing is discovering macho young guys--mostly Marines. I also know from guys who know him well that he is a very nice guy, and so is his major assistant.

Dirk has become so successful that he now runs a resort in Palm Springs--it is where his major stars hang out and where big buck guys pick them up. My personal favorite is Rick Ritter, a sailor who has done about six flicks for Dirk and is absolutely gorgeous. He tricks for about what you want--so you better be good.

Here is what I suggest: go on the Internet to www.dirkyateslive.com. I think it's $5 for 3 days. Do it! By the way, I have no financial interest in this and don't need the money (as you will find out when you come here and see my place).

Check out the guys and check out his resort. Then go hang out--audition! I have not been so can't tell you about it, but if you're as good as you say, you have a chance of making the big time--if that's your interest. I always wondered what my life would have been as a porn star. My Cecil B. DeMille moment was poster boy for the Marines, posters in every recruit office in America--but that was long ago.

If you want further info, come up Tuesday or Wednesday and I'll give you more info and some of Dirk's movies. Also an intro through friends--but check out his site first to see how real this is. But if that's not your interest, come anyway--I have friends at both State and UNC who could assist you in an admission.

Or just come up for straight-on business, no strings attached--I'll just fuck your ass for the set price. According to your reviews, you're a fuck machine, but I have a hard time visioning a tennis player as a fuck machine. I played baseball. I see tennis players as bottoms.

Mike

Thanks to the poster who recommended 'Trial and Error', the comedy based off the case. I'm binge watching it now, it started off slow but I'm enjoying it more and more with each episode. I'm about half way through season one (apparently the only one produced).

There is one thing I find strange about the show: they throw around the words 'gay' and 'homosexual' in reference to the MP character, but they also make it clear that the vast majority of his relationships/love affairs have been with women. But they don't mention the word 'bisexual' once, I found that odd for such a modern show.

And again:

Brad,

I enjoy your emails also. 1410 SAT huh? So what the fuck were you doing in the Army? I'm sure I was the smartest Marine ever, went to Duke and UNC Law, but I didn't get 1410. Of course, this was in the days Duke let dummies in. Still, with your scores, why waste time at UNC or State? And by the way, you will do much better this time around--scores go way up after a few years out of school. Wednesday could be a little iffy. I have to chair a meeting that starts at 7:30 pm. It's going to be a real cluster fuck involving two separate issues--race and the environment, subjects that people go ballistic on here. It may not end until way after 10.

Evenings are not great for me anyway; I'm married. Very happily married with a dynamite wife. Yes, I Know, I know; I'm very bi and that's all there is to it. How about this? I'll give you my cell phone number and we can try to hook up Wednesday night. Perhaps we could meet in Durham--I assume you'll be staying here or at the airport (don't stay in Raleigh; traffic's a motherfucker in the morning, even at 6). My house is fifteen minutes from the airport.

Have you logged onto Dirk Yates yet and gotten the info on the resort? If not, you can do it at my place, plus we could talk and whatever.

Mike

Brad,

I assume you have Internet access. Tap onto www.allworldsresort.com If you got 1410 SAT this should not be a problem.

but I will tell you I am coming over only if it is because of business...ie, you are paying to bang

Neither one of us is stupid. Of course I understand the reality and finances. You're not looking for a relationship and neither am I. We each have lives. I know you deal with professional types who obviously can afford a couple hundred bucks to get off, and maybe get degraded a little. Hey, I know a lot of guys like that myself. I understand we're in a client relationship and I'm paying for the services. No problem. If we get together, I'll pay for the time.

what you would be TRYING to plow my ass with...

Eight inches.

Mike

Brad,

I would not at all be surprised that people try to bargain with you, and if I felt it would do any good, I'd try it also. However, every body has to earn a buck, and when you sell your ass (or try to buy a piece of one) it's a seller's market. Not, however, in Okinawa where I was stationed once. There you could definitely barter a blow job and cunt down to a really reasonable fee.

I have no idea what you've had up your ass, but I have a pretty good size dick and certainly know how to use it. However, since you live with a guy, I suspect you can handle anything.

If you want to contact dirk or his assistant before you go out to the resort, email them at dirk@dirkyateslive.com or buzz@dirkyateslive.com Tell them you are a young hung stud from Ft. Bragg and would be interested in them having a look at you. Buzz handles the business and will probably get back in touch immediately.

Now on to us:

Are you coming up here Tuesday night to catch the a.m. flight? If you are, and don't plan to get here until late, and I might be in meetings until 10, that really won't leave you much time to rest for the trip. I can sleep in, but you can't. So I'll leave it up to you. You may want to try a later time; I'd hate to interfere with your travel plans. If I fuck you until after midnight, and you have to get up at 5, you may not be at your best for California. However, you're young and maybe can sleep on the plane.

Let me know.

Mike

And finally, Brad's cancellation:

Hey guy:

I was coming up that Wed night but time go away from me.....I have to be at the airport a 6AM...and since then back on base you can imagine how my life has been...SUCKY. I have been on guard duty every day...this weekend is my first back up in Raleigh since then...

A pic of doing my new job (at least for another week) is attached...my apologies for not getting back to you sooner...I want to hook up with you soon....things on base have just been crazy and I haven't done ANY calls with ANY clients.

I am in the middle in the photo, by the way.

I am here in Raleigh until Tuesday...

Thanks! Brad

Speaking of negotiations . . .Did anyone notice that weird pie plate scene in the kitchen in an early episode? One of the adoptive daughters asked to have a pie plate that was once owned by her dead mother (Ratliff) and MP hesitates? Apparently, the kitchen and house are full of the Ratliff woman's possessions and MP is hoarding them. It seems MP doesn't want to give the pie plate to his daughter, though he has several from the dead woman. He selects the ugliest pie plate--a green one--and the daughter tells him she wants the blue. It seemed that she knew he had to let her have whatever she wanted, since they were filming and that he was hoarding all these nice objects from her dead mother and didn't want to let go.

In those letters, Mike is trying to impress Brad. He says he doesn't want a relationship, but he does.

[quote]You all seem to be conveniently forgetting that Peterson's first wife Patti supported him during the long trial and and apparently moved back to the US from Germany to be present on the defense's side.

How is anyone forgetting this? Patti's support of Mike is a prominent thread of the The Staircase series. No one can watch it and not see that.

MP also placed ads in magazines soliciting gay military men.

I wonder if the first wife is still friends with him because they divorced over him being gay. Women often don't take that as personally, since you are rejecting them specifically.

I didn't realize he died this year.

Uh, Michael Peterson is still very much alive.

[quote]There is one thing I find strange about the show: they throw around the words 'gay' and 'homosexual' in reference to the MP character, but they also make it clear that the vast majority of his relationships/love affairs have been with women. But they don't mention the word 'bisexual' once, I found that odd for such a modern show.

Tons of people still don't really accept a guy can be bisexual, it is either gay or straight. You see it all the time here as well.

Oops. Must be another marine with that name.

MP does seem to stay close to women who can assist him financially. His first wife Patty, loaned him $168,000 in 2003. She also paid off a health proportion of Todd's and Clayton's credit card bills.

R221 Even I, while reading the letters to the hooker, was thinking, "Oh, he's really gay." But then I realized, "No, he is probably BI."

I wonder if he put Todd in touch with Dirk Yates.

R224 Bi? Or a closet case due to his age and the times?

As a narcissistic sociopath, is he capable of loving anyone, even his children?

I didn't get a sense of genuine closeness to his children. It was like he was acting.

His conversations with his sons are like talking to someone else's sons.

[quote]My Cecil B. DeMille moment was poster boy for the Marines, posters in every recruit office in America--but that was long ago.

Oh, honey, you got your close-up.

This article came out the other day with lots of details I've never seen mentioned elsewhere, such as Clayton having spent 4 years in federal prison, amongst others.

Patty helped MP buy that house. He talked her into helping. Later he gave her their old marital home in Durham in return for her forgiving the Cedar St loan. The book on the case I read said that Patty didn't want the divorce. Patty didn't want the daughters, and she wanted to live in Germany. But really, it's all a confused mess.

[quote]Peterson’s older son, Todd, also graduated from N.C. State University and worked briefly for Nortel Networks, which employed his stepmother, Kathleen. He then started a website, Futazi.com, which offered tips to high-schoolers on kissing, sex, drunk friends and makeup. While Todd said the website was to provide advice to teens like his sisters, some said the content and photos of scantily dressed girls was inappropriate for that age group. The site also introduced Todd's alter ego, bodybuilder "Roman Croft," with before-and-after photographs of him in boxer shorts.

A Google search does not have those photos.

Here you go, R232.

Thank you for tracking that down r233.

Is that really him in the BEFORE photos? His face looks very different.

I think he used a relative or friend to be the BEFORE pics

[quote]As a narcissistic sociopath, is he capable of loving anyone, even his children?

To me is sons seem like douchebags, his "daughters" seem brainwashed and damaged, and Patti seems crazy. And yeah, Michael himself came across poorly.

It wasn't a very sympathetic group of people, didn't make me want to be on their side.

That email at R208 is just too much. I don’t think Mike was bi at ALL. No way. I’ve hung out with too many gay men, and have had them in my life (luckily ) for far too long to think this is a bi man.

Mike was /is 100% gay. Why didn’t he just find himself a hot daddy when he was young ‘n’ hung? Why marry these ugly, dowdy women, who he was obviously not into? Bi men, truly bi men, usually like gorgeous, skanky chicks, btw. They could look nice and conservative, but they’re absolute whores in the sack, and hot women.

Mike was way too much into the life. Kathleen must have been desperate, and pitifully naive. This guy probably pinged from Mt. Rushmore, and she missed all the signs. Poor frau.

This man is a fucking sociopath. What a nasty piece of shit. He was already planning the future career of his rentboy, who no doubt just wanted to fuck, and get paid and leave. Mike was under the delusion that Brad was going to become a friend who would hang out by the pool of Kathleen’s house on T, W, and F, week after week.

What a fucking narcissist douchebag: “You might owe me a freebie for this”. No cunt-PAY UP FRONT!!!

No wonder Brad passed. Surely Mike was going to quibble over the price when all was said and done.

“Admission to UNC”. No BITCH - JUST PAY!!!!

"I don' wanna no shade. I jus' wanna get PAID!"

Has anyone ever found Brad Wolgamott's ads for his merchandise?

This was what, a $200-$300 fuck? That’s pennies. Let’s be real. I know rent boys are shorted in the market, but a good whore who is a woman, usually charges $700 minimum. Average prices for a hot chick iare anywhere from $1,000 to $2,000. LA or Manhattan, or SF, women are getting PAID. Miami too. Saudis will fly you to Europe and you’ll get 15K, plus a day at the BEST stores in Paris or London. So I am baffled that this guy was hoping for actual company and friendship, for a measly couple of hundred, or more likely was setting up a price adjustment.

Hooking is a job. Mike was a fucking loser who wouldn’t go out and get his own, and then was too stupid, and killed the only person who put up with his bullshit, and who actually worked.

350/hr is pretty typical for a female escort. I don't know why you think they are getting paid 1k-2k an hour.

R238, he grew up in the 50s. You sound like a moronic Millennial who thinks the last 100 years were full of Pride parades and PrEP.

Umm, because they are, r242. Backpage and Craigslist girls are making lousy money. That’s on them.

I’m not going to get into details, but I can tell you right now that women who know what’s up are raking in the prices I quoted above, and have been for years.

You get what you pay for. If you want a skinny, drugged up chick, go to Backpage. If you want someone who actually sleeps, works out, and looks healthy, you find a decent agency, or ask a well off friend, and you PAY 💰.

Well sure, I'd imagine the top girls based out of New York and what not would get paid that, but that isn't what Brad was. He was just a guy in North Carolina advertising on a backpage equivalent. So I would compare him to girls who work the same type of market.

I mean this wasn't some big name guy who gets flown around the world to bigwig type clients ( there are males who live that lifestyle too).

That's all I'm saying.

R238, Very cool post. He sounds SO like a gay man, that I forget that bisexuality does exist.

Because I am not Bi, and find vagina horrifying sexually, I cannot fathom what being bi feels like.

But I get what you are saying! But perhaps, he was bi, and understands the pussy as well as the vag. He was clearly more of a top.

I'm not clear on something.

Did they do a search of MP's computer and just come up with hi emails to Brad? I'm guessing there was more but why, at this point, haven't we heard of any other internet relationships?

FASCINATING ARTICLE AT R230.

THANKS FOR POSTING, ESPECIALLY WITH WHAT LED TO THE TODD BEFORE AND AFTER PHOTOS!

But the article referred to both Todd and Clayton as the older son.

Todd now creeps me out. I am good.

R245, I knew a girl in NYC, who was charging 40K per week. I’m not exaggerating in the least.

She’s not anything extra special, but she’s in great shape, well educated, smart, and very funny, and speaks several languages, fluently. She doesn’t do any drugs, whatsoever, and stops after a few glasses of wine or champagne. She will attend parties with her dates, dinner, etc. She provides the whole GF Experience.

She gets what she asks for, too. She’s extremely picky, and has only a handful of clients. She’s also very discreet.

So ladies and gentlemen, set your prices a little higher, and see what happens. Work for yourself. I don’t recommend prostitution as a way to make a living forever, because that’s obviously impossible. But if you’re a unique individual who genuinely likes sex, you can do this for 5 to 10 years, and get out with a fantastic nest egg.

The people who can do this as I describe above are rare. Most people fuck up by getting involved in drugs and have no discipline with money. If that’s the case with you, then this type of job is not suitable. But if you can do it while young, with a good head on your shoulders, it’s not terrible at all, and the people who you meet are far more interesting than the schlubs you’re meeting on backpage.

"If you’re bi, tell your wife BEFORE you marry her. I think men underestimate how open minded plenty of women can be."

Most women are not open-minded about being with a bi guy, that's WHY bi men hide in the closet. Even very liberal women who support gay rights generally don't want their own boyfriends to be bi. As a fag hag who hangs out on gay sites, you hardly represent the typical woman, sorry.

[quote]Did they do a search of MP's computer and just come up with hi emails to Brad? I'm guessing there was more but why, at this point, haven't we heard of any other internet relationships?

According to one site, "MP deleted thousands of files in the days before he murdered Kathleen. In fact, he installed a program on his computer that would make file deletion easier". MP was soliciting gay military men via magazine ads. And remember it was 2001, when Internet was still in its infancy.

Is MP poz? He certainly looks it in many photographs.

Maybe that’s why he was a strict top only? Had bottomed before becoming poz?

R238 I agree with you 100%.

At the risk of sounding perhaps just a tad homophobic, the first time I met MP at a Duke School of Engineering social event(Kathleen was a graduate) I said to my partner, Woo boy! I wonder if Kathleen realized her husband is as gay as an Easter parade?

I mean, he doesn't just ping in person...he GONGS. Since Kathleen is a bright woman, I just have to believe that on some level she knew he was gay. Okay here comes another statement which will not endear me to readers, but it is my opinion that the extremely homely Kathleen saw MP as the dashing, intelligent good looking(he was much more attractive then( man she could never get, and as she was aging rapidly, she was likely not to get another shot at such a partner.

I apologize for my 2 politically offensive takes on the couple, but there it is. I could have danced around it, but I decided just to say it like I was speaking to a friend who knows I am not a sexist hompphobe in real lif.

R251, I’m a straight woman and that’s a dealbreaker for me, too. I find bisexual men threatening and frightening and I wouldn’t want to be date/marry one. Like 254, I’m being honest. It’s not atttactive to me. It’s fine for other people, but it’s not in the scope of my attractions.

And r254, he seemed gay to me, too. And, like the “Capturing the Friedmans” dad, he seemed like a real weirdo from the get go.

R254 here homophobe not hompphobe

MP doesn't really come across as being bisexual though, r256. He seemed to be a total narcissistic sociopath, who only used women for financial security (and to hide his true sexuality). I think the confusion lies in the era he grew up in, Peterson was a young guy in the '60s, when being an openly gay man left you open to harrassment and discrimination. There's no way he'd have been able to have the career he did in the marines if he'd been honest about being gay.

Maybe as he aged he grew more careless about keeping it hidden, and that's why he was constantly staying at the gym late (the constant searching for hookups online is also quite telling behaviour). However, the wife seemed in denial to me. I think she at least suspected, and when she found the emails she most likely lost it. Peterson strikes as just the type of person to explode into violence if he was confronted.

I was waiting for the shocking announcement that she had been strangled that people were bringing up, but then I found out that it was a finding by that crackpot medical examiner who was obviously winging it. It wasn't shocking at all. If anything, this documentary showed just how incompetent these people were and how messed up the US justice system is. I'm not saying he's innocent, but the DA's crookedness may have gotten guilty people off the hook.

[quote]He seemed to be a total narcissistic sociopath, who only used women for financial security (and to hide his true sexuality).

Did he really need the money though? Didn't he have his own? He seems more like an aspie than a sociopath.

R259: No, he'd written a few books years before but they didn't bring in any money. He used the "prestige" of being a writer to gain social acceptance in the local community, however the money he needed to live his lifestyle came from his wife.

[quote]I was waiting for the shocking announcement that she had been strangled that people were bringing up, but then I found out that it was a finding by that crackpot medical examiner who was obviously winging it.

I am so confused, where else would the information about Kathleen's body come from except the person who conducted her autopsy?

And I should add it isn't like it is a subjective conclusion, Kathleen had crushed thyroid cartilage that suggest someone tried to manually strangle her at some point. She didn't have other telltale strangulation signs so Dr. Radisch did not think the cause of death was strangulation or anything, but evidence does indicates at one point she was strangled.

It's important to remember this was a drawn out affair, the red neuron evidence makes it clear she was suffering for a while before she died.

That is why Michael Peterson changed his story. According to the first responders, his claim that night was he just went out to turn off the lights and came back in and found her.

When this didn't fit some of the blood being dry and the red neuron evidence, the story became he was chilling by the pool smoking a cigar to seemingly allow more time for Kathleen to bleed out, but according to everyone involved he never said that the night of.

well put R262

Do you think MP's layer David Rudolf believed in his innocence?

I read somewhere that Rudolf insisted at the very end of all the trials, he still didn't know if MP was innocent or guilty, but can that really be true?

"I was waiting for the shocking announcement that she had been strangled that people were bringing up, but then I found out that it was a finding by that crackpot medical examiner who was obviously winging it. It wasn't shocking at all. If anything, this documentary showed just how incompetent these people were and how messed up the US justice system is."

You think the US justice system is messed up because of a biased documentary? Okay

One of the sites postulated that after MP finished scoring Kathleen's skull with whatever sharp instrument he used to kill her (a machete perhaps?), he simply took a long walk and buried the murder weapon somewhere. That accounts for the hour or more it took Kathleen to bleed out and for the blood to begin drying and makes a nonsense of his "she's still breathing" claim in his 911 call.

I mean the US justice system is flawed, every justice system is flawed, they are all real people doing these jobs and people make mistakes, people get it wrong, people are sometimes corrupt.

But going from there "they are all crackpots who are winging it and I will believe nothing they say" is extreme.

Could he have actually pushed her down the stairs, severely incapacitating her due to the fall, and then proceeded to finish the job?

I think she was severely injured, and left to die. I haven’t finished the documentary yet, but isn’t it possible that she fell due to him shoving her, he tried to strangle her, couldn’t go through with it, and then decided to bash her skull? He then went for a long walk, hiding the murder weapon, and she struggled unsuccessfully, to get up, and eventually died?

The reason he (MP) is somewhat convincing regarding the events of that evening, is because she really did take a mighty, hard tumble down those stairs, however, at his behest.

Forgot to add, perhaps he actually bashed the back of her skull against the actual stairs, immediately after her fall. The steps themselves were possibly the murder weapon. Hence another reason for the long walk. Waiting for her to bleed out and die. She may have still been alive (barely) when he returned, and he applied pressure to her throat, in order to finish the job. A full on strangulation wasn’t necessary, at that point.

Reading those letters to Brad, I don't think he was genuinely bi.

He had a type: "Straight guys who have sex with guys." In order to create that illusion for himself, too, he had to be married. (Note that the only time he insults Brad -- you've probably had a lot up your ass -- is not about having gay sex, but living with a guy.)

I find him telling the Brad about being happily married was more about fulfilling the fetish (selling himself as "straight acting straight guy who just happens to like cock sometimes") than a reliable declaration of love.

R270, I also caught that insult. He was a very unkind man.

Agree, r270. I thought that remark betrayed his jealousy, too.

And what was with his obsession with Brad and Dirk Yates? That struck me.

Maybe I wasn’t paying much attention, but at the very beginning when MP was talking about the events of the evening and he said they finished watching the movie at 11:00, I was surprised they were still awake. And then all the other stuff he described that would have taken another hour or two to transpire.

People who work and are in their 60s are usually very tired and poop out by 10:00pm. Maybe they had a party kind of lifestyle. But even the older drinkers I know are passed out by 11:00. It’s WHY they drink, sometimes.

They weren't in their 60s, and I find that drinkers tend to stay up later than most folks.

[quote]And what was with his obsession with Brad and Dirk Yates? That struck me.

He clearly developed his sexual tastes while in the Marines. Those videos feature military guys (often straight), the type he was drooling over when he was a Marine, too.

He, clearly, had a type. And thought he was that type, too. LOL.

Kathleen was only 48, Michael was 58 at the time.

I don't think he is that much better looking than her.

And WTF is she doing wearing white at her age to a SECOND wedding?

The guy doesn’t even humble brag, he just straight out brags. Big turn off. And let’s be honest, by the time he was emailing Brad, he was an aging man, who was no longer attractive.

All of this Dirk Yates prattle must have been a HUGE turn off to Brad. The guy was just trying to make some extra cash on the side, nowhere did he indicate that he was interested in becoming a porn actor.

It appears that MP had no self awareness. He thought he’d ingratiate himself with a trick, by going on and on about his past accomplishments, and suggesting that the trick might have a lucrative career in porn.

It doesn’t surprise me one bit that he thought he’d get away with staging an accident, which was really a murder. He’d spent his entire life getting away with lying, such as his pins from the Marines. Why lie about that. Those were accomplishments to be proud of. No need to claim they were Purple Hearts. MP’s credibility comes into question, not because he is gay, but because he based his entire identity, his foundational core, upon a lie. He lied about his truest self, daily. He went to great lengths to hide it. If he can do that, can he kill, then lie? Maybe. Seems more possible than had he not stayed in the closet. Fundamentally, had he been out, Kathleen might still be alive today. That’s a lot to consider. Think about that. This is how staying closeted can effect real people, with real lives.

A very tragic story, but I don’t pity him one bit because he was a nasty, spiteful cunt, closeted or otherwise.

R276, oh that’s right. I guess there are people who can stay up all night at that age. I’m not one of them.

R277, the dress was lovely, but the cut was much too youthful for her to carry.

Poor woman. She probably knew, but she was lonely, and he probably charmed the living daylights out of her.

He was a conman and this poor woman was an easy mark, regardless of her above average intelligence.

I wonder if they fought a lot about money. I suspect that they did.

[quote]Did he really need the money though? Didn't he have his own?

No. He had not brought in any income for three years prior to Kathleen's death.

Kathleen and Michael were living on credit cards - over $130,000 of credit card debt. They could not afford to fix a plumbing issue in the en suite bathroom in the master bedroom, and to save money, Kathleen did major cleaning of the property exterior herself.

Further, both Todd and Clayton Peterson were in heavy credit card debt and neither could afford even the interest repayments. Michael discussed this with their mother, by email. He wrote 'I cannot discuss this with Kathleen' (because of their own debts) and he advised their mother to take out a loan against her home in Germany to help the boys.

What comes across in The Staircase is that Michael, Todd, Clayton, Margaret and Martha are living out some WASP fantasy at Kathleen's expense. The boys affect these bizarre accents, and Michael has built an elaborate persona for his (broke ass) self as the pipe puffing man of leisure, idling in his study. The five of them were parasites, really.

Also, Clayton had a history of really seriously disturbed criminal behaviour. Police found 13 pipe bombs in the house after he planted one at Duke, and two of them were rigged to arrows, for firing. Bad genes.

I loved Michael bragging to Brad about how impressed he would be when he say Michael's house -- that Kathleen paid for!

FUN TRIVIA: That house was featured in The Handmaiden's Tale (the one with Natasha Richardson).

OMG Miss FAYE DUNAWAY filmed in the Peterson house

Background for those who want to deep dive

I have to tell you, after rewatching this series on Netflix, that Todd's attractiveness in now GONE. He is as weird as his daddy, I suspect.

Even Margaret, seems "OFF". The girl with the awful hairstyles is a fucking mess.

Very strange group of people.

And for the life of me I still cannot figure out who that bizarre lady who was in Germany with them is? The one with the 20.00 words and totally eccentric vibe? She seems like a pseudo intellectual hippy mental case? She was a supporter of Michael's..

She and Ms. Freda Black could have a Talk Show and I would totally watch. TV Gold.

[quote]OMG Miss FAYE DUNAWAY filmed in the Peterson house

The wrong bitch was pushed down the staircase!

[quote]The girl with the awful hairstyles is a fucking mess.

Who, me?

[quote]I still cannot figure out who that bizarre lady who was in Germany with them is? The one with the 20.00 words and totally eccentric vibe?

That is Patti, Michael's first wife, mother of Todd and Clayton, and best friend of Liz Ratliff, also found dead at the bottom of a staircase, who was the bio mother of Martha and Margaret.

[quote]Todd's attractiveness in now GONE

I agree. After seeing that weird website he made to attract high school girls.

And hearing how oddly he acted when he came home "to find" a dead body in the house.

Very creepy.

Sexy Jim's tragic backstory

[quote]When Hardin was 12, he watched his family home burn down, claiming his two younger sisters and brother.[His mother] told WRAL in 2003 that he tied sheets together and used them to climb out of his window. His brother and two sisters died in the fire.

When I first watched The Staircase on the BBC years ago I felt that Todd Peterson killed Kathleen and Michael and he conspired to cover it up.

I suspect that Patti divorced Michael after Liz Ratliff told her that he was having an affair with her husband.

It's easier for some women to remain friends with a former husband who is gay than one who cheats with another woman. That's more personal.

R291, why?

[quote]When I first watched The Staircase on the BBC years ago I felt that Todd Peterson killed Kathleen and Michael and he conspired to cover it up.

That's probably not true.

Todd was with three friends (two females, one male) that night. They came back to the house to fuck. The police were already there. They said Todd was very uncooperative and kept trying to communicate with people outside the house after they told him not to.

It appears he has an alibi for being gone during the time of death.

R281, MP split his genes accordingly:

Clayton is the sociopath.

Todd is the deeply closeted son.

So Todd was living in Kathleen’s home, or did he just think he would be more likely to get laid if he took drunken women to his stepmother’s home?

What an entitled, tacky, asshole. Why would any grown man want to fuck with his parents at home? I can’t imagine driving to my parents’ home drunk, with some stranger or dude who I knew, in order to fuck in their home. It’s rude, and very untoward.

[quote]Why would any grown man want to fuck with his parents at home?

Because, like his father, he was very invested in the social status that living in the mansion gave him, and he wanted to show off about where he lived.

[quote] I can’t imagine driving to my parents’ home drunk, with some stranger or dude who I knew, in order to fuck in their home. It’s rude, and very untoward.

Mary!

Get this. The police found a used condom in the Peterson's bedroom, and Mike told the police it belonged to ...a friend of Todd's?

[quote]Peterson also told [his step daughter, Caitlinn] Atwater about a condom found in the couple's bedroom. He said it was another attempt to make him look bad and that police might use it to say the couple "had a perverted sex life and were having orgies in the house."Documents show Peterson's son, Todd, later explained the condom belonged to one of his friends who had sex with a girl in the Petersons' bed.

Dennis Rowe is kind of a smoking gun, of sorts. He was to be called to testify about MP's gay sex life in Durham but never was. He was one of MP's sexual partners, and as I remember it, a well-known figure in Durham gay community. Oddly, he was beaten to death in November 2004. He was also a childhood friend of Kathleen's from Lancaster PA. All references to him were scrubbed from this re-released STAIRCASE. So MP was having routine sex with a childhood friend of Kathleen's, who was later found murdered. Lots of references online, but here's one.

Wow, R299.

R288 and R289- THANK YOU!

Holy fuck!!!!! THAT WAS PATTI- HIS EX WIFE?!?!?!?!?!? Mother of god, what a WEIRD fucking group of people! That adds an entirely new level for me. That weird chick is the boy's MOTHER!?!?! Holy COW.

(I am VERY slow with details, as you can see)

And I agree, after seeing that weird fucking website of Todd's, I am 100% good with him. My god, he was photogenic, but I am seriously creeped out by him now.

Bad vibes from every last one of them.

It is very odd, initially I thought that the prosecution were a bunch of bible toting homophobes and I thought that blonde chick daughter of the murdered Kathleen was a strident bitch. I actually WANTED to believe that Michael was innocent. Hell, the defense attorney was extremely likable too!

But when you really go back and watch it, the entire Petersen clan is a bunch of loons. And the blonde chick might have been one of the only normal people in the entire documentary.

And Kathleen's nasty and venomous sister with the Baltimore accent was another reason I wanted Michael to be innocent. But in the end, I agree that Michael is guilty as fuck.

A documentary filled to the brim with weird folks on both sides. Highly addictive and frightening snapshot of the human condition.

Michael's fuck buddy Dennis 'Mary!' Rowe was a 'designer of gossamer formal gowns'.

[quote] I can’t imagine driving to my parents’ home drunk, with some stranger or dude who I knew, in order to fuck in their home. It’s rude, and very untoward.

It's wrong! It's shockingly wrong!

R285, I love your analysis. It’s a really odd bunch of people.

Does anyone wonder if the son brought people home to fuck because MP was watching?

I know I keep saying this, but this family reminds me of “Capturing the Friedmans”.

Todd was 25 when he brought these girls home for sex, and Clayton was 27. These were grown, adult men. I’m assuming they moved into Kathleen’s home due to their inability to pay rent at their own apartments, hence the large credit card debt.

If you’re old enough to get laid, amass huge credit card debt, you’re old enough to pay them off on your own, and make independent living arrangements.

I’m very open minded, but these boys were spoiled beyond belief, and were leeching off this woman. Imagine the cost of that electricity bill. My parents had a home close to that size, and just the two of them living there. The electric bill was 400 to 600 plus monthly, depending on the season.

The reports are that Clayton and Todd owed $1,000/month on credit card INTEREST alone.

So, yeah, they were spoiled and completely irresponsible.

[quote]Does anyone wonder if the son brought people home to fuck because MP was watching?

I find it beyond the bounds of possibility that Todd invited friends back to the house, which has six bedrooms, and decided to let them fuck in his father and stepmother's bedroom. That was his and Mike's story of how a used condom was found by the police in the Master bedroom that Mike claimed to Caitlinn 'would be used by the police to argue that orgies were taking place' , i.e. because DNA from someone other than Mike and Kathleen was on it.

I think Mike brought men back to the house, and fucked in the Master bedroom, and that he had Todd lie about this condom.

FWIW, the house belonged to Michael. He bought it with proceeds from first book and a loan from Patty, first wife. I believe he bought it from Henry Louis Gates, who taught at Duke. (You can't make this stuff up.) As for the condom, I believe I read that it was tested but had no semen in it.

[quote]I think Mike brought men back to the house, and fucked in the Master bedroom, and that he had Todd lie about this condom.

From his letters to Brad, it appears that his MO was to invite men to the house while his wife was at work. And I think Todd probably lied about more than a condom.

I read the pipe bomber son also had DUI arrest/s. Affluenza-grifter-terrorist douche nozzle types. Hot.

R305, that is pathetic.

What a scumbag. Fucking in his wife’s marital bed.

Look, staying closeted is obviously a very personal choice, but have some decency and fuck your ticks in a hotel or cheap motel, like most married men do.

I doubt these two had much sex anyhow. Todd claims that his father and mother had a very “platonic “ relationship, and undoubtedly, the same was the same for him and Kathleen.

He probably had to be pretty drunk to fuck her, and insisted on doggy style, when he did.

Has anyone else ever read those pages of crap which were on line detailing the festivities surrounding Clayton's wedding? I have no idea how to locate it. I can't remember if it was on a personal blog or if it was Facebook, but someone posted it at Websleuths back in the period shortly after the trial ended. I had forgotten all about it, but then seeing Clayton and Todd's names mentioned so many times in this thread just brought back the memory.

On EP2. I’m watching him deny his affair with his friend, while standing in the kitchen.

I actually felt like crying. He is so ashamed of his sexuality. It really is awful to see an old man do this. I feel really bad for him at this very moment.

R308: I think I read somewhere that it was Kathleen who was paying for the house, and the mortgage was really in her name. Peterson only used the loan from his first wife as the down payment. That's why they were panicking when it seemed likely that Kathleen would lose her job; they had massive credit card debt, with more going out than in. And on top of it all, MP wanted Kathleen to take out another loan to bail out his sons.

Their lifestyle was all based on Kathleen's earning power and she was becoming more and more stressed out over it. I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't already near the end of her tether with MP, and the finding of the emails was the final straw.

MP probably killed her because she confronted him and threatened divorce. He was about to lose everything, including his cushy lifestyle and social status. She was simply worth more to him dead than alive at that point.

Did MP know that Kathleen’s 1.4 M life insurance policy named her first husband as the sole beneficiary?

Kathleen had updated the life insurance policy to be for Michael with Nortel, it just came up after her death she had accidentally entered the form without her signature. No one knew that was the case.

In an early episode, Michel states to his lawyers point blank that Kathleen knew he was bi, and she was fine with it. In one of the new, most recently filmed, episodes he is giving one of his interminable monologues and says, 'I wonder what she [Kathleen]would have said if I had told her [I was bisexual], that would have been a crazy conversation' or words to that effect.

Kathleen was broken up by the infidelity of her first husband, and divorced him because of it. MP is a fucking liar, who wanted a steady income and a beard wife.

[quote] it just came up after her death she had accidentally entered the form without her signature.

Accidentally?

I had a lot of empathy for Caitlin. Can you imagine living through the divorce of your parents and then getting this ragtag bunch of kids and that creepy man leeching off your mom?

Agreed now R320. It took me awhile to see it that way.

I watched all the episodes on Netflix after seeing other true crime shows about this case. The pro MP bias was very evident. The fact that the broken hyoid bone, the bloody footprint on Kathleen's back, or the blood splatter on the inside of MP's shorts weren't mentioned or highlighted as significant do a disservice to the filmmakers. Now hearing that MP was in a relationship with the film's editor makes this viewpoint more understandable. Another thing that I hadn't heard mentioned in the series or here was that Todd did not care for Kathleen. I can't remember where I heard this but I remember it being memorable because he and his family was sponging off of her.

R322 another thing that shocked me-- from one of the true crime books not the docu-- was that the two Ratliff girls had been farmed around. They were sent to maternal and paternal relatives, even to a couple in Germany to adopt which didn't work out. MP tried to get an aunt to adopt one of them but not the other. All before the age of 10. There was a reference to the fact that Kathleen was the first person to care for them unconditionally, even just to brush their hair and keep them bathed and dressed properly. She insisted they stay together and in Durham.

It's still unclear to me about the time line of events after Elizabeth Ratliff died. How long was it after her husband's death?

And how long was it before Martha and Margaret were adopted by MP and did that not officially happen until MP was married to Kathleen? And how long after Elizabeth's death was it before MP and Patti divorced? Where were Martha and Margaret in that time?

Help!

[quote] the two Ratliff girls had been farmed around. They were sent to maternal and paternal relatives, even to a couple in Germany to adopt which didn't work out. MP tried to get an aunt to adopt one of them but not the other.

"Please take the one with the bad hair."

I read in a linked newspaper article that the police thought it looks suspicious when they arrived because they saw blood on kitchen cabinets/drawers.

Was this even mentioned in the documentary?

R320, yep. Pretty infuriating.

The two sons are pieces of shit, in my opinion. I’ve never in my life have befriended a person who would make a bomb (well, not knowingly, as far as I know), and I’m not too sure that I’d welcome a young man who wasn’t my son, into my home, after such sinister behavior. I’m not even sure I’d want my own son near me, if I knew he was crazy enough to make and plant bombs in public spaces. That’s pretty inexcusable, and something is deeply damaged within someone to do something like that. I see no justification or explanation for it. It’s just psychopathic to do something like that.

Kathleen was overly generous. She had a potential killer, housed, right under her nose. Clayton’s behavior is a HUGE red flag regarding his upbringing, which his parents were responsible for. And then the insurmountable debt that both boys incurred. Nope, nope, nope.

This man and his sons are nothing but a pack of grifters, and two of them turned out to be murderers, with only one finishing what he started.

Fucked up family. VERY fucked up family.

R313, here it is:

Well, with his sons married and having children, we can be certain that at least one of those kids will turn out to be a psycho.

[quote] and a brief stay at Duke, where he met wonderful Becky. We all know what happened next. Fortunately, Becky stuck by her man and they were reunited in 1997.

I love the glancing allusion to Clayton trying to mass murder people at Duke and winding up in federal prison for it.

I wonder if Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder, CO used "We all know what happened next" in her 1997 Christmas letter to friends and family. I'd like to think she did . . .

[quote]Another thing that I hadn't heard mentioned in the series or here was that Todd did not care for Kathleen. I can't remember where I heard this but I remember it being memorable because he and his family was sponging off of her.

Todd kept repeating that night "They were shit-faced and she just fell". He didn't seem too broken up by fact he just walked in and his stepmom was dead.

[quote]They came back to the house to fuck. The police were already there

Todd walked in basically right alongside the EMT first responders, before the actual police force showed up. But yes, the chick he was with said they were at the same party together all night, which gives him a strong alibi.

Thanks, R328. What self-absorbed people.

[quote] "Bride's Attendants" will include Margaret and Martha Ratliff, and the "Groom's Attendants" are Todd Peterson -- listed as "Best Man, brother and stud" -- and a Mr. Benjamin Maynor. Peterson trial trackers may recall that Todd initially told police that the used condom found at the Cedar Street crime scene belonged to Ben Maynor, who left it behind after using the Peterson's bedroom for a sexual tryst with a nurse that weekend.

R324 I can give you the gist. Liz died 1985, George 1983 (supposedly in his sleep, only witness his military roommate. Panama.) Also, supposedly he left the girls a large insurance policy for education, which Liz asked MP to manage. At Liz's death there was no evidence of it. She named MP and Patty Peterson guardians, since the girls knew them better than their aunts. Although the person they were closest to was their Scottish nanny. From 1985 until MP met Kathleen, the girls were shuttled back and forth between Germany and Durham (MP and Patty moved back and forth) and to maternal and paternal family members in Rhode Island, PA, and TX. Martha (bad hair) was a problem, and MP called her manipulative at age 3! He asked Liz's sister to take Martha only, he'd keep Margaret. Patty didn't want either one, and asked family members to take them. At one point she arranged for a German couple to adopt them, and the girls were sent by air alone to Germany to strangers. It didn't work out and they were returned to Durham. Mike and Patty separated several times. Patty always kept the boys, MP the girls. The girls met Caitlyn at school and became friends, and then so did MP and Kathleen. They moved in together when the girls were around 10 years old. One of the girls, I believe, said that Kathleen was the first person to love them unconditionally and truly care for them. The Ratliff girls were never adopted by the Petersons. As orphans, there were benefits paid to MP for caring for them.

^ from the podcast or WRITTEN IN BLOOD, Fanning's book. Or whatever else I've read.

It’s odd that these girl have such an undying loyalty to a man who didn’t really want to raise them.

I understand wanting to live in a cocoon, and deny facts, I’ve been there. But after certain events, such as this death, one has to step back and question WTF is really going on.

As I stated upthread, I don’t believe MP deliberately killed his wife. I think they fought, she fell down the stairs, and he either left her to die, or he didn’t allow for her to get up, and fight for her life. He may have even hastened her death along.

What started as an accident, did not end as one.

R47, I thought it strange, too, until I saw his teeth.

According to the link at R328 Clayton was born on Friday 13th. It's tragic he wasn't named Damien, would nicely fit with this whole saga.

The easier choice for them is choosing to believe Michael did not kill Kathleen r335. And it is possible he did not (I 100% believe he did, but none of us will ever know for a fact).

I feel sorry for them, if they turned against Michael (and thus Patti, Todd and Clayton) they would be choosing to leave behind the only family they have left, and it isn't going to bring Kathleen back to life.

Those chiclets are horrible, R336

R336- WHAT THE FUCK!!!! THOSE TEETH ARE HORRIBLE!!!!

"Nice teeth" was the funniest thing Michael said over the whole series.

Where are the photos of Todd's old teeth?

Talk about new chompers.

His teeth are fine.

Why didn’t the police find it strange that officious Patti, the wife of the last person to speak to Elizabeth, was hovering around the scene, possibly attempting to orchestrate it?

I viewed other scenes where people had taken nasty falls, out of curiosity. The scenes were either quite bloody, or no visible blood. Either is obviously possible.

Just based on MP’s personality, I do not believe he set out to intentionally kill Kathleen. I believe that she did fall, either accidentally, or via a physical altercation. Either scenario, I believe that she and Michael were arguing prior to the fall.

I do believe she was badly injured, and I believe that he made it impossible for her to get help, and attempted to strangle her. So though he may have not initiated the accident, he immediately saw it as an opportunity to be genuinely believed, because it happened, he was right there, and witnessed it, and he decided to take it a few steps further, in order to insure her demise.

This fits his personality to a “T”. In his mind, it still allows him to justify his part. The same way he justified all of his other behaviors. There was always a kernel of truth in the lies he told.

MP is a very sick person.

This case has actually challenged me to become more honest and transparent. Right now, that has been difficult for me, because I’m currently living in a very conservative part of the country, and rather than to voice my true beliefs, I stay quiet, in order to not make any waves. But there just isn’t any room for even little lies or omissions any longer. One thing leads to another, and then you’re a Mike Peterson. You don’t have to murder another person, when you’re murdering yourself.

The man is a psychopath, plain and simple.

- glib and superficial charm

- grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self

- need for stimulation

- pathological lying

- cunning and manipulativeness

- lack of remorse or guilt

- shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)

- callousness and lack of empathy

- parasitic lifestyle

- poor behavioral controls

- sexual promiscuity

- lack of realistic long-term goals

- impulsivity

- irresponsibility

- failure to accept responsibility for own actions

R315 - excellent assessment

My biggest issue is this: MP claims they finished the movie around 11pm and then went outside and sat by the pool. Michael's 911 call wasn't placed until 2:40am. We're really supposed to buy that MP sat out by the pool for over 3.5 hours in the dark in DECEMBER? Even if his claim is true that it was 55-60 degrees that night, you'd get fucking cold (not to mention bored) in much less time than that. And according to this website, it got down to 46 degrees in Durham that night.

I also don't know too many people who stay up until 2am (roughly...we don't know exactly when Kathleen supposedly headed inside) when they have to work the next morning. In the end I just can't get myself to believe that MP sat out by that pool for 3.5+ hours in the dark, in December. It just doesn't pass the BS test.

R350, that stuck out to me, too. After polishing off a couple of bottles of wine, as you said, most people who work (and are worried about losing their jobs) will shuffle off to bed at midnight. Wouldn’t he have urged her to go to sleep so he could go to his study and look at porn?

What really strikes is how this man had no problem with all the money everyone had to come up with for his defense.

He could have passed out by the pool...but he never said that did he?

If he and the wife were struggling financially and under water with credit card debt, where did the money come from for the defense?

That must have been hundreds of thousands of dollars and they were still in the house.

[quote]where did the money come from for the defense?

Kathleen's 401k, Michael's brother, Michael's father, Patty.

[quote]That must have been hundreds of thousands of dollars

Closer to a million.

Yes, Peterson's father, first wife and brothers took out loans which were secured against Michael Peterson's house. He had some power over the first wife. I do wonder if they were both in cahoots over Liz Ratliff. The entire mob are very, very strange. Including the brother, Bill.

A total random left field post. apologies in advance. one of my dearest friends, a man I've thought about more in my life than almost anyone even though he's been gone over 30 years, is buried in the same cemetery as George and Liz Ratliff, in his family's plot. Rowland died of AIDS in 1984. He was the most beautiful, cultured, funny, loyal friend imaginable. When I saw the scene of them digging up Liz's coffin, it was almost unbearable not to have Rowland to share it with, both of us aghast that HIS cemetery would be part of such a sordid drama. He would have loved and hated it, and laughed. I guess I'm sharing because I still miss him.

R357 So glad you can remember your friend's laughter.

R357, you sweet man. Very touching contribution to this great thread.

R357, you shared it with us, which isn’t as good, but I enjoyed it as he might have.

No way I could have convicted him. Not enough evidence and plenty of reasonable doubt. It just doesn't make sense. MP is creepy and odd but that doesn't make him a killer.

It might have been an owl. She tried to go upstairs and fell back.

But they shouldn't have convicted him even with the flimsy evidence from the first trial. I'm on the fence as to whether he COULD have done something to her. Maybe after she was attacked by the owl or fell? Maybe he strangled her then? IDK but it was interesting!

How did his blood covered footprint, end up on the back of her trouser leg, R361? Which was underneath her when she was allegedly found by him slumped on her back? How did her blood spatter up inside the leg of his shorts? Come on. The mystery is not 'is Peterson a murderer', it's 'is Peterson a double murderer?'

Bump.

I don't get why the bloody footprint on her leg & the crushed cartilage in her neck was not mentioned until the very tail end of the documentary?? And even then it was just sort of said in passing! Made me feel like I'd just been mislead and wasted 10 fucking hours of my life, which isn't a great feeling.

I think he killed her after she fell.

Seriously, no one really thinks it may have been an owl attack then he didn't assist her with her injuries?

I think either an owl attacked her and he let her die with some strangulation or she fell and he did the same.

That BBC doc was very lurid... and grandiose. That said, it redeemed itself in the end with the hour-long interviews with Kathleen's sister and Michael himself. The original doc made Kathleen's sister appear so angry, strident and bitchy that it was hard to see her side of things, but the BBC doc really painted her in a different light. The vocal reenactments of the letters with the readers speaking in the King's English were ludicrously laughable (what, they couldn't find actors to do American accents?!). It was good, but I think it could have been done differently (and shorter) while having greater impact. A nice companion piece, I suppose. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if another shoe fell in all of this and even more insanity is revealed given this wacky group of people.

R367 What was the Michael interview like in the BBC podcast? (Or was it a doc, too?) I couldn't bring myself to listen to any more of him, but I really enjoyed the Candace interview.

R368 the Michael interview is exclusive to the BBC podcast, it's one of the later episodes and it quite recent (maybe 2017?). Kathleen's sister and him doing the hour-longs is what makes it worth it, the first 8-10 episodes are middling until the Owl Theory is presented and they have an exclusive interview with the attorney/neighbor who came up with that, too. I'd just listen to the last half myself.

Sure r366 an owl attack may have happened before he killed her. Highly unlikely but not impossible.

But what diff does it make, the question is whether he’s sincere or full of shit with his innocence act.

If he strangled his dynamite wife to death, it doesn’t really matter whether there was an incidental owl attack just before.

OK, I just watched the new 3 hours from ID channel.

About the friend in Germany who died. The Germans did an autopsy, correct? They said she had a brain hemorrhage and one report said there wasn't a lot of blood. They do the second autopsy after exhumation and said there was lacerations just like with Kathleen. But nowhere did they compare BOTH reports to say if the Germans said there were lacerations on the victim as well. That is so frustrating! Of course the brain had deteriorated so the Durham ME couldn't tell if she had a brain hemorrhage. Convenient.

After watching ALL of it- I do think he did something to cause her death. Whether directly by hitting her or knowing she was attacked by an owl and fell down the stairs afterwards and did nothing to help. I also think the Durham officials were completely untrustworthy and would lie, cheat and fabricate to get a conviction. Disgusting all the way around.

We saw that MP is a terrible actor/liar when he was accused of having had multiple meet-ups with that one trick. So if he's guilty, how'd he pull off such a convincing 911 call?

One thing I’ve learned about the South, people down there with any power or prestige, are usually corrupt as hell.

I very much think he took advantage of an accidental fall or even an owl attack and added injuries to kill her off.

The head wounds were so superficial, with no brain swelling or skull damage, that it doesn't seem like a deliberate attack. Same with the lack of defensive wounds.

I'd say he just outright murdered her and tried to make it look like an accident, but why repeat what happened in Germany and draw attention to yourself? Why not toss her in the pool which was right there?

If MP was aware of the owl attack, surely he would have brought it up in the 911 call or at least when the EMTs and police arrived. There was no reason for him NOT to mention the owl if he was are of it, it only helped his case.

I just listened to a few of the BBC podcasts and her neighbor did mention that Kathleen often stayed up very late at night and still managed to get to work the next morning, so I guess it's not that odd that she was up so late. But I still find it hard to believe anyone would hang out by the pool, in the dark, in December, for over three hours.

Is this legit her?

[quote]So if he's guilty, how'd he pull off such a convincing 911 call?

Whether the 911 call sounds convincing or real is very much in the eye of the beholder.

Nothing about Michael's story makes sense to me. Whose first instinct is to grab towels and paper towels to try to clean up some of the blood?! Who is taking off their shoes and cleaning them?

Yes r377.

Who the fuck actually believes that owl nonsense?

[quote]About the friend in Germany who died. The Germans did an autopsy, correct? They said she had a brain hemorrhage and one report said there wasn't a lot of blood.

More than one. Margaret and Martha's German nanny testified that there was a lot of blood - so much she vomited. MP was very cool and collected about finding his 'dear friend' Liz in that state, and yet has an absurdly histrionic meltdown when he finds Kathleen in an almost identical state? The 911 call was prime ham. 'Won't somebody coke ?? Please come!!! Ohhh Pleeease!!!!!' Bitch, purlease.

[quote] A sexy male escort takes the stand!!!

That story's been told before, sugar. I like my version bettah.

I wont read this thread until I've watched all the episodes, but it's interesting to me that alot of the prosecution's case was left out in the documentary. The only time some of the important information came out was during the hearings for the re-trial.

Apparently the jury said the lying SBI forensics guy's testimony was most important, but the documentary didn't originally focus much on what he said that was apparently so convincing.

I did not see a sexy male escort..sorry.

R382 on the contrary, the jury said the most convincing evidence was their visit to the staircase and the amount of blood. at least in the sources I've seen/read. AND, the defense arranged the visit for the judge and jury. umm, wrong move.

Yep, the BBC podcast interviews someone on the jury. When they just visited the house and looked at the the very narrow staircase and how far the blood reached, no one believed it could be a fall.

When they started deliberations, there was no one on the jury that believed he was innocent.

I thought they said in the documentary that the jury was split. It was the testimony of the blood expert that was used to sway that half that didn't want to convict.

It's been years since I have seen the documentary so I can't recall what they claimed, but the interview with the jury member is in this episode of the podcast.

The jury member they interviewed claimed a lot of the jury was bored by Deaver who testified for an entire damn week.

I was convinced by the video showing a cartoon flopping around and banging her head on the wall and stairs that this could definitely have been an accident.

The SBI guy lied in many cases so that alone should have gotten this case thrown out.

The amount of blood is concerning, but seeing all the tampering they did with the crime scene (blood marks coming and going in photos), how can you trust anything?

[quote]The SBI guy lied in many cases so that alone should have gotten this case thrown out.

Uh, that did get the case thrown dear. Did you miss it? That is why Michael Peterson is not doing his life in prison sentence.

[quote]how can you trust anything?

You should also not blindly trust a TV series that is told from the perspective of the defense with people who are even romantically involved with Michael Peterson.

Well, he got away with it. Probably twice (IMO).

Do we know anything about the film editor? Is she wealthy? She probably is, because MP doesn’t mess around with impoverished women. Although the pickings are probably slim at the moment.

Peterson's attorney seemed like a nice buy, but he did a pretty shitty job of defending his client -- especially for a million dollars.

Almost all of the expert rebuttal evidence used at the hearing for a new trial could -- and should -- have been put on at the original trial. It might have avoided a conviction.

Did anyone else find it odd how MP left the blood all up in the staircase even as he continued living in the house?

R392 I blame his decorator.

Like Durst, he got a thrill out of it.

I was thinking the same thing. They had to live amongst that blood for how long?

On another note, Todd was fucking hot and there was nothing wrong with his teeth. He must be mental as well. What a weird family. He didn't want to put Clayton on the stand because of all the shit he was in, credit card debt, DUI, pipe bombs. Doesn't reflect well on his parenting skills.

Ok...why did first wife Patty say there was no blood at liz’s Accident site? Then several other witnesses reported blood and days to clean.

[quote]They had to live amongst that blood for how long?

That's the thing, I don't believe they had to. I listened to the BBC Candace interview last night and she said that the day the house was turned back over to MP (after the police left), she went in with him and began trying to clean up the blood. She said she barely managed to clean off the cat picture before she realized there was just too much blood and that there was no way she was gonna be able to do it. So it's not like the police forced them to keep it like that. I don't know how much time went by before MP decided to hire David Rudolph, but maybe David advised him to keep it there so that they could have their own blood splatter experts analyze it? All I know is the jury member they interviewed stated that seeing the bloody staircase in real life is what made them all agree he was guilty, so obviously it would've been in MP's best interest to have cleaned up that fucking mess! Then the jury members wouldn't have had anything to look at other than the dimensions of the stairway. Dumb move!

A more fastidious homemaker would have cleaned *before* calling 911.

Hugs, R357. You sound like a good person. I'm sorry about your friend.

R389 He did not really get away with it. He made an Alford plea instead of risking a retrial with the same guilty verdict. In the eyes of the law he is guilty, however under Alford he can maintain his innocence, but with the admission that he understands the prosecution likely has enough evidence to convict.

Maybe like a serial killer he kept a souvenir, or arsonist who stands in crowd watching the fire. Maybe he got perverse thrill, having blood remain. Also, sadistic, as his children were made to live in house with their “mother’s” blood dried on the walls and steps. They didn’t even put up a curtain. Can you imagine a loving parent allowing their traumatized child to go through that?

However, despite words stating they cared for Kathleen, no one seemed too bothered by her death. Weird.

R391, I disagree. His attorneys were worth it in the end (at least to MP), because he is a free man today. The 2nd trial was pro-bono.

Meanwhile, some damn Owl is out there, hooting it up, free.

Is it not possible that the court ordered MP not to clean up the bloodstains?

Kathleen died on December 9th...MP wasn't arrested until December 20th. Meaning he still had 11 days in which to clean up that mess if he really wanted to (more like 9-10 days, since the police initially took control of the house for a couple days while they investigated). I looked up the timeline and David Rudolph wasn't hired until December 18th. So for a good week, MP didn't bother doing anything about that bloody mess for some reason. I don't see how the court could have ordered him to keep it there when he hadn't even been arrested yet. And it was clearly an option to clean it up, as Candace had attempted to at one point.

[quote] Can you imagine a loving parent allowing their traumatized child to go through that?

In this case, "traumatized children" is open to interpretation. The ferocity and delusion with which Martha and Margaret defend MP's innocence didn't leave much room for trauma, or for Kathleen, for that matter.

R378 it was a convincing 911 tape because it had eerie similarities to the one I made for my husband when he collapsed. Of course I never hung up on the 911 operator. But how he was telling them to hurry up and the way he sounded--it really was striking. Maybe he was just a good actor.

His practice call to 911 was just rehearsal, very community theater.

But the second call was a wonderful moment of acting.

Wasn't the house a crime scene? Would that be the reason for the blood not being cleaned? It was very strange how jovial they all were during the court case- man I would have been stressed. Joking about going to the clink? It all seemed so lighthearted and blase. Nobody seemed all that broken up about Kathleen.

r409, that was EXACTLY my take-away on MP. He always seemed to irrepressibly chuckle over every set back during the trial, like it was all just a vaguely exasperating nuisance rather than a life and death situation about his dead wife and the imminent guilty verdict.

Perhaps it was just the "nice guy-brave face" he was putting on for the doc cameras but it really has the opposite effect as one watches The Staircase.

Well it was a nightmare scenario that crashed onto him through no fault of his own (if u believe him) and that he was helpless to stop as it tore apart his whole life. Not sure what the right way to behave is. There are lots of weird things about dude that don’t have any bearing on whether he’s guilty.

His clear & obvious guilt comes from evidence around the actual crime - EG his telling 911 that she was still breathing when paramedics found she’d been dead for hours, the blood splattered up the walls as happens when someone is beaten but not when they fall down some stairs, etc

There is a new ABC doc in a similar vein produced by Viola Davies.

It follows the case of Darlie Routier who is on death row for killing her children. The Innocence Project have got involved with the case.

I've only watched the trailer, not sure if the full thing is available outside of the US yet.

I’ve read a lot about her case and watched some programs about Darlie Routier and she is guilty guilty guilty. The amount of blood and the evidence that the blood showed and the cruelty of stabbing her sons so many times. She deserves to be on jail.

R404 While I have no link to justify this, I could swear that someone, be it the DA's office or MP's defense team wanted the staircase left as it was throughout the trial.

There are crime scene cleaners in even the smallest towns these days, so there is absolutely no reason to leave it as it was. And my feeling is that IF there was no order to leave it in its post death night state, MP and Co. would have to be virtually insane to leave it in that state. IF I were a juror, and I was informed that MP had opted to leave the horrible daily reminder of the "tragedy" as it appeared that night, that would absolutely convince me that he was a straight up sociopath who was getting some perverse pleasure/satisfaction in seeing it day after day.

No, I would bet a week's pay that it was not MP's call to leave it as it was.

I assume the defense wanted to leave the blood so their own experts like Dr. Lee could examine it.

And keep in mind this was a mansion with multiple stairwells, easy to block off that stairwell.

And that German-Jewish pathologist/crime scene expert with the heavy accent also came quite a while after the fact. ^^^^

His son is the medical examiner in a town outside of Detroit(I just cannot think of his name.)

[quote]And that German-Jewish pathologist/crime scene expert

He is Werner Spitz.

It was the defense team that made the call about keeping the blood in the stairwell. The guy with the white hair and mustache, Rudolf's PI, boarded up the door to that staircase, so it was not used by the family except for trial purposes.

I can just imagine someone telling Patsy Ramsey, "You can't clean this room."

She would have had the carpet shampooer going before they got the last word out.

Apparently Candace never got the memo.

I felt bad for the DA on the appeal. Candace read her to filth.

R389, the case didn't get thrown out. He got a new trial. The case itself continued

Trying to watch The Last Defense on ABC but they've already removed the first episode from the ABC app and Hulu (second episode is set to expire soon also, I see)! What a fucking stupid move on the part of ABC. This is a series I'm assuming you have to watch in it's entirety, and that's no longer possible for those of us who are just now learning of its existence. Talk about a fucking FAIL. Why do media companies do shit like this??

[R423] there is a thread about the Last defense here in DL. Look it up, there is some YouTube and other links of the episodes, besides abc.

Todd was an adult living at Kathleen’s home, deep in credit card debt, bringing his home to shtup, set up a site geared to us girls with inappropriate content. I won’t say grooming, but kind of gross. then he gets his new pearlies, and now is founder and president of online exclusive real estate. Deal? Whacko, grandiose little Michael, or family?

R56 That pretty much sewed it for me.

Statement Analysis gets to the truth. Michael Peterson called 911, 2:40 am on 9 December, 2001 911: Durham 9-1-1. Where is your emergency? Peterson:… Uuuuh, eighteen ten Cedar Street. Please! It is interesting to note that the subject began with a pause, making the question of his address "sensitive" to him. Since he would require no pre-thought for his address, what might have caused the pause in needing to choose his words? Consider that 911 calls are, in a sense, "excited utterance." Being emotionally upset is presupposed. Was it that the subject was considering that he was going to answer "What is your emergency?" rather than the address?

Every 911 call, like every interview, will give the Interviewer (operator) one of two impressions: Either the subject is working with me to facilitate the flow of information, or he is not. Peterson: What? What? 911: How many stairs did... Peterson: Stairs? 911: How many stairs? Peterson:… Um, um, uh, (etc) 911: Calm down, sir, calm down. Peterson: No, damned, sixteen, twenty. I don’t know. Please! Get somebody here, right away. Please! This was not a question he expected and he would need just a second or two to quickly count the number of steps. This would also focus him upon the victim which would then give information to the police on how to advise first aid. Did he not hear her? This is not likely as he is able to repeat her words. He is on hormonal "high alert"? Or, is the repetition (sensitivity) due to stalling because he was not in close proximity to the victim? This is something very concerning because it is expected that he would be right with his wife (describing the breathing) and able to follow directions. He shows scripted urgency. He does not ask for help for his wife, nor does he ask for help for himself to administer emergency aid to her. This is to make a "show" of concern, but linguistically: he is not concerned for the victim.

I always found it ridiculous that the 911 operator asked how many stairs she fell down. MP clearly did too, that's why he answered the way he did. Who gives a shit how many stairs? She's lying in a pool of blood, just get here!

R428 if you've ever made a 911 call, they DO ask odd questions. My understanding is that they are trained to ask a certain number/set of questions to keep you on the line and focused in an attempt to calm you down from hysteria. A 911 op's job is not to be concerned or sympathize, but to act as objective as possible. The stairs answer made me laugh. How many? My answer would have been (if I had been telling the truth which of course he was not) A LOT. The op was trying to figure out if it was a stumble or a great fall. When he answered specifically, I knew he was performing.

But..he didn't answer specifically. He said "I don't know--15? 20?" He was just trying to guesstimate how many stairs they had.

I disagree that the 911 call is suspicious on its own. His agitation at the operator’s questions seemed to come from his sense that an ambulance wouldn’t be dispatched until the questioning was finished.

Yeah, I have to agree with the above posters. MP may be guilty as hell but there's really nothing in the 911 cal that's suspect. I can't even imagine the craziness I'd blurt out if I found my husband in a pool of blood at the bottom of our stairs. And I have no idea how many stairs are there.

"No way I could have convicted him. Not enough evidence and plenty of reasonable doubt. It just doesn't make sense. MP is creepy and odd but that doesn't make him a killer. It might have been an owl. She tried to go upstairs and fell back."

Me too. I would have had what I call reluctant reasonable doubt based on what I understand the jury's duty to be. They are not crime solvers but assessors of evidence.

Putting on a crime solver hat, I never felt anybody adequately explained how a fall could produce so much blood (though a poster upthread did so thanks.). Also, I struggle with the owl thing which seems reasonable (based on the wound pattern) if exceptional (based on death by owl being reasonably uncommon) until: wouldn't she have screamed her fool head off? The owl would have landed on her outside - it didn't attack her in the house - so if an owl taloned my scalp open and I was able to stumble into the house and fish flop all over a staircase landing - you'd think she would have let out an audible 'fuck that hurts!' or ten and it could have been heard down at the pool.

The other things that troubles me are if he did it why would even the most clinically categorical narcissist agree to a documentary crew following him around? That's beyond hide in plain sight and beyond narcissism if you ask me but I know a case can be argued.

Finally, I really don't buy that the two staircase deaths are connected. You've got to fancy yourself pretty lucky to imagine you can replicate a very lucky killing by throwing somebody down the stairs. It's not a guaranteed way to kill anybody.... you'd surely be counting on a broken neck. The second staircase was really narrow. Peterson was not a likeable character - though I argue who among us would seem likeable with that much scrutiny - but I also don't think he was stupid. So choosing this method as means to kill - twice - doesn't seem compatible with any kind of functioning intelligence. It's just lousy odds of getting away with it and the guy plainly wasn't keen on going to jail.

Is it possible for the throat bone of whatever it was to be broken or damaged by any other means than strangulation?

r427, "statement analysis" is bullshit

r433, I agree with all you say. Brilliant analysis.

R433 again... another thing that I struggle with about the owl theory - and it may have been answered somewhere - is the blood flow would have started immediately so surely there should have been blood outside and inside on the way to the staircase.

If your scalp had been torn open your hands instinctively would have grasped at it - covering those hands in blood one of which then would have been used to open the door to get into the house where you flopped around at the bottom of the staircase.

On the other hand if she did fall and fly back, tearing her head open, I could see it only because I recall a relative accidentally walking into the pointy end of a stake in our garage. Not a lot of force but it penetrated the skin and there was so much blood it looked like a murder had taken place.

I could see Peterson found her dead and panicked. Anyone would think: they're going to think I did this and he stalled, in panic, trying to sort out what to do.

Another thing I that leads me to think he is less likely to have done this than not is the lawyer. The lawyer stuck by him, always and it seemed genuinely. If he never believed, or had second thoughts in the years Peterson was in jail, his position and advocacy surely would have changed and it really didn't seem to. He seemed genuinely happy at the later turn of events. He could have easily in the intervening years distanced himself from the matter.

The throat bone or whatever it was I still can't make sense of. To me it all comes down to that to point you into some theory of what happened that night really.

One minute the prosecution was saying money was the motive (which would've meant he premeditated everything), and the next minute they were saying it was a spur of the moment killing that occurred after Kathleen stumbled upon the gay emails. Which is it!?

R421 FOR FILTH, FOR FILTH

Why can't our bright and brilliants Data Loungers ever get that expression right?? This has been going on for 2 years now.

I know it's not a life or death issue, but I just do not understand why it isn't resonating with certain people. To give you an example: take the over used hackneyed phrase, "At the end of the day," What if someone repeatedly said, "At the beginning of the day" or "At the end of lunchtime?"

Maybe because both "for filth" and "to filth" are considered correct r439....

No , they are not interchangeable.

They are absolutely considered interchangeable

You make good points, but would your first thought REALLY be “they’re going to think I did this?” I wouldn’t, don’t think, but it is a crazy time. I would probably be spilling everything, oh no, this happened to my friend years ago, this is crazy! I would have told my defense immediately because I’d be terrified of how it would look. als, I would have told my lawyer everything that could come out that might make me look guilty, no matter how embarrassing. Mike seemed blithely unaware that male hookups, paying sex could be easily discovered by prosecutors, and they would be gunning for him. Also, remember the writing he did on how murder feels and changes you?

Any lawyers on here? The lawyer seemed to be focused on the challenge of the case, proving each doubt, etc. He was invested in winnng the case and to me didn’t concern himself with the truth, or his personal view, just the mission to win for his client. Also, he was fully aware of crew filming everything, what lawyer would allow that? One who likes attention of course, a trial lawyer has to possess some modicum of vanity or enjoyment of attention. It would validate him to win the case. The woman is dead, no to do there.

Meant to say, lawyers are highly rational....Kathleen was dead, he couldn’t bring her back, and he focused on his role...winning the case.

I really grew to like his lawyer Rudolf. Seems like a really good guy.

Of course, Rudolf was focused on wining the case. What lawyer wouldn't be?

But the point is that Rudolf consistently, over many years, seemed genuinely invested in MP and his family. It was clearly more than just a routine job for him. And he makes a very sincere impression (as a lawyer and mensch) throughout the documentary.

Even if this guy had been somewhat attractive, and I don't think he was, his raging narcissism would have made him totally unfuckable. Someone upthread said that Kathleen was much uglier than him but she really wasn't. They seemed evenly matched from a looks point of view. I can't believe any hot guy would have had sex with him unless, as we've seen, he was going to be paid for it.

I loved how MP postulated in the doc that his prosecution was payback for all of the "hard-hitting" columns he'd written against the district attorney. Such delusions of grandeur! He was a two-bit writer. He never made any real money from any of his work, and to suggest that he was some kind of vaunted journalist was as twisted as saying he received his medals for valor as opposed to getting them from a car accident.

r447:

Still doesn't make you a murderer.

Are owls known to attack human beings' heads?

Is this is a thing?

No, R448, that alone doesn't make him a murderer. All the evidence makes him a murderer.

The fact that the documentary team filmed everything allowed the MP teams to have so much video evidence that prosecution witnesses lied during testimony. It was a good decision to get it all filmed

I don’t think the motives of being in debt and being bi were strong enough to convict MP of murder. If it was truly an argument about him being bi, would he really have been in the right state of mind to calmly go out and dispose of the murder weapon just after he killed his wife? The cartoon video of Kathleen falling and her head and grabbing the door frame get up, only to fall back on her head was convincing to me.

That said, it was odd that there was no blood on MP’s shirt and just a bit on his shorts. If you saw your spouse bleeding but still alive, would you be craddling your spouse’s head? It seems like she bled to death, considering there were no brain contusions.

R449, apparently it was not unheard of in the area

The staircase was too small and thin to hit someone in the head with a long stick over and over in

Interesting that there’s almost no information on the younger son. It’s like he disappeared. Guess he doesn’t have a social media presence on purpose. He’s wasn’t married at least in 2017, when the final segments were filmed. He kept mentions his “best friend” is a woman, but he gets interrupted so we don’t know anymore

Amazing that his house was 10,000 sq feet but is only worth 2 Million now. Durham is cheap

Did MP get any butt action in prison?

No one wanted him to be their bitch in prison, much to his dismay.

Imagine having to be his cellmate. You'd have to listen to him talk constantly about himself and how brilliant he was and how he got such a bad deal and then he'd keep trying to get you to fuck his saggy ass. Talk about hard time!

R455, I recall toward the end of the documentary MP was talking about one of his sons and one of the daughters and said 'oh, that's like so and so... wants nothing to do with it... doesn't tell anybody.' So even though they did the documentary two of the four children seemed to really want to distance themselves from sharing the story in their private lives. And really, do a poll, and most people would have no clue who you're talking about, so they could probably pull it off.

I’m a lawyer, don’t do crim defense but have known lots of people who do. None of them are concerned with the client’s actual guilt or innocence, only with getting the best possible outcome. The lawyer takes on the client’s interest, using his legal training as the client would if he was defending himself. No accused criminal wants to go to prison, regardless of his guilt, & his defense atty takes that position as controlling.

As for Rudolf, I liked him too, but of course he’s not letting his role in this case go! It’s gotten him attention from around the world.

When the BBC podcast interviewed people about Rudolf the most commonly used word was "showboat"

Rudolf did an excellent job of creating doubt for each theory the prosecution put forth. The jury just couldn’t get over the fact that MP was gay

The hearing to get a new trial revealed a bunch of evidence that was presented at the old trial but didn’t make the documentary originally. It makes me think the jury wasn’t completely stupid in finding him guilty

R464 what evidence are you thinking of?

The broken cartilage in her neck and the bloody footprint on her body were never mentioned until that second trial. I'm not sure the blood splatter inside his shorts was ever mentioned, either.

The blood stain on the wall a few steps up was never mentioned until later

It's not that the jury was disgusted or prejudiced against MP because he was gay; rather it was because he was gay and married to a woman.

And for the "read to filth person who continues to tell me that is an acceptable variation on the proper "read FOR filth" Pleas reference the Urban Dictionary. There is no listing whatsoever for "read to filth," whereas there is close to a whole page on the proper "read FOR filth."

This is a popular expression among the black gay community and I first heard it on RHOA 6 years ago.

I do not know why you refuse to admit that you have messed up the wording many times here on DL. I truly was trying to help you originally. I thought you just might want to cease embarrassing yourself. I admit that now I am just pissed off and no longer have altruistic intentions.

Look at it this way: One might say, "Nicole read Carrie for being such a bitch." You would not say, " to being such a bitch."

I will try to let it go...there is no point in dragging it out further, but for the love of god top being so fucking stubborn. When you are wrong, it doesn't mean you are stupid or dumb--it just means you are wrong.

After all the docos and podcasts and background reading, I don't remember hearing/reading anywhere as to whether or not the jury was sequestered?

[quote]I will try to let it go...there is no point in dragging it out further, but for the love of god top being so fucking stubborn. When you are wrong, it doesn't mean you are stupid or dumb--it just means you are wrong.

You first.

FFS, let go of pedantic shit. Obsessing over such makes you look like Micheal Peterson sucking on his pipe while he explains how well he'll do in prison.

And I don't give a fuck if I misspelled Michael. Mmkay?

Please try not to(/AND) freak the fuck out.

[quote]After all the docos and podcasts and background reading, I don't remember hearing/reading anywhere as to whether or not the jury was sequestered?

Don't think so. One of the jurors interviewed by the BBC podcast said she had to ask someone to change the station on their TV one time because something about the case came on while she was waiting for her car to get maintenance (or something like that). Someone else mentioned a jury member was dismissed after being pulled over for DUI and telling the cop, "You better not mess with me--I'm on the Michael Peterson jury!" (as if that means anything). So it didn't sound to me like they were being holed up in a hotel somewhere.

Oh it wasn't car maintenance--it was when she was at a jewelry shop trying to get her watch battery replaced. I just remembered that insignificant detail.

R473 No, the jury was not sequestered.

After watching the first 4 episodes, it's very obvious he's guilty. Too many unanswered questions about the timeline, and he's obviously the biggest liar and sociopath of all time. He'd be the worst poker player of all time. Whenever confronted with an untruth, he gives out a high-pitched chirp. It's very telling.

I wonder if the reason the woman in Germany died was because she confronted him about him having sex with her husband and he didn't want his wife to find out.

Liar, liar

Christ, that escort dodged a bullet by being "too tired" to meet up with MP. Can't imagine how tiresome it would have been to spend time with that sociopathic narcissist. And his claim that he had never bottomed is patently ridiculous. No amount of money would have been just compensation for being anywhere near him naked.

During the strategy meeting re whether or not to put on a defense case, Peterson and son are both total dicks to the attorney.

[quote][[R423]] there is a thread about the Last defense here in DL. Look it up, there is some YouTube and other links of the episodes, besides abc.

I found the thread and there are no links anywhere to the first episode. This is a massive fail by ABC.

R479 what episode is that? anyway don’t waste tears on the atty, his job involves counseling people during some of the hardest and worst times of their lives - when their behavior reflects this, he doesn’t take it personally.

Gross, nasty, creepy lying old gay man. He couldnt stand her ass. Of course he did it. Shady bastard.

There were youtube vids about a week ago. They probably got taken down.

R476, I agree about his chirping and voice. The deeper his lies, the higher his voice.

MP is the worst actor of all time. Whenever there's a setback in the courtroom, his attorney looks properly chagrined but MP strikes this false note of incredulity that's comical. He has no idea of how to respond as an innocent man so he has to unconvincingly fake it.

Knowing that the film's editor had a long-term relationship with MP, there's no doubt why so many of its elements are so one-sided. But seriously, how could seeing so much of that preening narcissist make you feel anything but revulsion? Especially knowing, too, that he's simultaneously trolling for soldier dick?

Agree, R484 and that was my first thought upon hearing his high voice on the 911 call at the very beginning of the series.

I'll have to disagree with many of you here and say that I didn't find the documentary to be particularly sympathetic to MP. And I think that the great degree of dislike and mistrust of him by so many posters here would support that.

I get so many of these Petersons mixed up. We have Drew. There's Scott.

23 and Me should fund a study of this freak show.

LMAO at MP puffing on his pipe. Yeah, we know what you'd really like to be sucking on.

It's so obvious that everyone has been prepped to be non-responsive to MP's "bisexuality." "Oh, Dad, arranged to have anal sex with hustlers? Isn't that what everyone's father does?" I also find it hard to believe that MP's parents and brother had been aware of it way back when, as the brother said they had.Not in that time and place.

MP's parents? Were they in the documentary? I don't remember them.

"I thought they knew!"

I'm not all the way through the series, but so far I think MP was innocent. The blood splatter expert who testified was very convincing.

You bitches are slipping. What happened isn’t that Kathleen found out that her husband was secretly gay—she wasn’t headless—but that he was getting porked by his own son. That completely freaked her out. Michael killed her and Todd had good reason to help cover it up.

Also, I didn’t realize Trial and Error was based on this case. I loved that comedy and was delighted to see the similarities.

Where are the nude pics of the escort?

I'd rather see the nude pics of Todd.

This is Brad Wolgamott, the escort, today:

Yeah I am surprised that Brad's nude escort pics haven't surfaced, I've never seen them.

R497, he thinks they’re all over the internet. That what he says on Twitter.

R496 are you kidding me?

That is NOT the escort who testified.

"Experts" can read the blood spatter evidence any way they want. Besides, what makes MP guilty is his motivations and pretty much all of his actions before, afterward and since.

MP here. Yo, military dudes. I know we're both into pussy big time but once in a while it's cool to jack with a dude.

The last episodes of the series are just unwatchable. Way too much of MP's poor me pontificating. Ugh.

I'm still undecided about his guilt or innocence. But if what was shown in the Netflix doc is a fair summary of the investigation and prosecution ( I now know that's may not be the case), it was a shoddy effort on the state's part. I was thinking throughout, if I had been Kathleen and accidentally tumbled down those stairs to my death, I would not want my innocent husband put through this process and convicted by the testimony of a (at best) poorly trained crime scene investigator.

Michael Peterson, and his family, were odd, no doubt. But odd (and gay) doesn't make him a killer. I guess what I'm trying to say, is if he was guilty, and the justice system fucked up this badly, I'd expect him to get a remedy through the courts so I could have some assurance that an innocent man could as well.

All of these crime documentaries have to be edited in a way that show there might be some chance of their innocence. Otherwise what would be the point of watching? It's just like all the shows and YouTube videos on the Darlie Routier case. They all have to promote some chance that maybe she didn't murder her kids. Even though it's one of the most open and closed cases that was ever prosecuted.

If you think he's innocent, you have to believe he sat outside by the pool in the cold for some hours while his wife fell down some stairs and kept re injuring herself by her attempts to get up. And that he thought she was alive when he called 911 when she had clearly been dead for hours. And that he had no motive for wanting her dead, like being deeply in debt or trolling for gay sex on the internet behind her back, or wanting her life insurance policy. And that the previous case of death by staircase was completely coincidental and he's just the unluckiest bastard alive.

I thought the daughter's green hair was an excellent court room look. What say the DL??

Freda Black, everyone's favorite prosecutor, has been found dead in her home this morning. She was 57.

Acute alcoholism, R08. She'd had several DUIs which effectively ruined her career.

She either fell at home and bled out, or suffered liver failure.

Hardin had kind words.

[quote]Hardin had kind words.

Obviously as a gay person I don't have warm feelings toward Freda Black, but she was clearly an accomplished and successful professional who fell hard into substance abuse until it ruined her career and now ultimately ended her life. It is sad to see somehow fall so slow.

They'll never find a mortician who can rival Freda's makeup skills. It's gonna have to be a closed casket service!

This is interesting. This guy analyzes facial and vocal expressions for truthfulness. With his heavy German accent, he sounds like Freud discussing Todd and Michael's lies:

RIP Freda Black. I loved her and never believed her words belied anything personally homophobic. It's just how we southerners talk, with emphasis on words to make a good story. She was working the jury hard. I'm sure having The Staircase come out again reminded her of how far she'd fallen, and the publicity must have been unbearable. I admired her as a hard-charging professional woman who stood up to MP, when so many of them bowed and kissed his ass.

Who is the guy at r496? He was maybe a gay escort if not THE gay escort, it sounds like he was converted or saved thanks to Shelly's love and God.

What does the 'T' in "pure-T filth" mean?

R516 I grew up with the phrase "Pure D" not "Pure T." Have no idea what it means. D might = damn. T might be a clean-up of Pure D.

She was the Marcia Clark of the Carolinas.

RIP Freda. May she finally have found the peace that eluded her in this life.

The escort's name is "Brent Wolgamott", not Brad.

Gross r520, he looks like Ricky Gervais playing "Derek".

LOL! R521, I can't unsee it now.

.....

Freda Black is dead to us all.

....

....

Really r524?

Can someone start a new thread. New information = new thread.

DAYUM dats a ugly escort.

Ron, the defense investigator, died last month as well.

Freda was still young. Wonder what happened? Probably got drunk and fell on the corner of a table?

That’s the fucked up thing about drinking alone. I fell on a table once. Came to, and had blood all over my back, because I split a section of my back open. Had to have stitches and plastic surgery to get rid of the scar. Thank God I got sober.

A friend died like this. He hit his head and bled out in his living room.

You can also drink yourself to death by damaging your stomach lining and bleeding out internally.

It's a shitty way to go!

[quote]Freda was still young.

For an alcoholic? No, not really. 55-64 is actually a common age range to die from cirrhosis of the liver (I understand we don't know what killed her yet, just saying)

What are the chances she was found at the foot of a staircase?

Michael Peterson did it. In the stairwell. With the blow poke.

That would be funny, and ironic, if she got drunk, fell and bled to death. Karma is a bitch, as they say.

Bravo, r532!

[R529] I'm glad you made it through that!

[quote] Amazing. Didn't the prosecutor also get in trouble for something after the trial? And, of course, Freda had two DWI's and now works at a dry cleaners. What goes around comes around. #Karma

More on Freda un the article below, including the above mean-spirited David Rudolph tweet. What a jerk thing to say.

^^ in the article below - sorry for the typo

R537, to be fair, Rudolf wrote that tweet BEFORE Black's death.

I got a kick of out Freda Black and I would have liked to see her pursue a better path; she could have maximized her exposure and perhaps done some good in the world. But even if you think Peterson guilty, Black undeniably used homophobia to help convict him, so t's understandable that many gay people aren't sad to see her go.

Obviously Rudolf doesn't think kindly of Black, she didn't like him either. There was no love lost there.

But yes that tweet was written well before her death, it wasn't in response to it or anything.

R385, in the Netflix series one of the jurors apparently told Rudolph that they were 50/50 at the start of jury deliberations but became unanimous when they saw the autopsy report. I haven’t listened to the podcast yet-did one of the jurors say they all felt he was guilty at the beginning of deliberations?

I don’t think we ever saw MP’s supportive lawyer brother after he was convicted and sent to prison, did we? The one who closely resembled him physically? I think we saw the older brother.

Thanks to the additional Netflix episodes we got to see home movies and pics of MP when he was younger and he was VERY attractive in an all-American sort of way. I bet he had absolutely no problem getting male sex partners back then.

R541, the juror said they were 50-50 but the bloodstain evidence on Peterson's shorts swayed them. Then it turned out that the bloodstain "expert", Duane Deaver, that testified and convinced the jury was a serial liar and faker of evidence. How can that man sleep at night?

Karma will get him like it got Freda Black. Well, he was beaten with the ugly stick so at least that’s something.

I tried to get through the series but finally found MP so abhorrent, I couldn't watch it all. So smarmy and narcissistic, ugh.

R541 link

The sister-in-law, Candace, is the frau from hell. Bitch is crazy.

She really isn't r546, but I get that you get that impression from only knowing this case through the documentary.

The BBC podcast does a whole episode devoted to her, check it out, it's a good listen.

Candace was edited as hard to like and a harpy, but think about it: the guy murdered your sister... you might lose it too.

MP was an animal abuser as well, as witnessed by Liz Ratiff's sister and the Ratliff girls. Why those girls defended him is beyond me.

r549, you shouldn't believe everything you read

Since the editor of the documentary had a long affair with MP, I guess there might have been a little bias there.

Well, he treated his dogs like he treated his women.

Dateline NBC is about Michael Peterson’s wife.

What about her?

Just finished watching this, I’ll never get those 10 hours back. So crazy on multiple levels. I despise every single mannerism MP has: especially the shrill, femme voice that kicks in whenever he’s lying or talking about his rentboys. All of his kids are weirdos: the green haired Boulder hippie, Todd the closeted model, Clayton the bomb making father of two, and the happy go lucky daughter who got hit by the ugly stick. I hate them all.

Todd and MP seemed to have a strange connection/relationship. He even included him in a decision with lawyers and left out the ugly son.

R556: maybe Todd and Dad were fuck buddies. Just kidding.

R555 pretty much sums it all up. After I watched as much as I was able, I was sorry to have spent that much time on it. I found everything about MP to be abhorrent, including his overstated mannerisms, his delusions of grandeur and his persecution complex. That he got off for time served was a travesty of justice.

If they ever make a movie, Patty needs to be played by Frances Conroy. She is a LOON!!!! What is up with her? Meryl would also have fun with that part.

No way that narcissist son Todd doesn't have dick pics out there.

Who was the NC lacrosse player he paid to fuck?

I wonder if he was with John McCain in Vietnam.

Where is Todd's sex tape? There has to be one out there.

If Todd had ever done a sex tape, you know that queeny perv MP would have been all over it. Even if it was his own son. ESPECIALLY since it was his own son.

I can’t stand Peterson, yet I’m not convinced he killed his wife, nor am I convinced that he didn’t.

They never released a cause of death for Freda Black did they?

Guilty, guilty, guilty. There's no question in my mind.

Didn't Peterson claim to have a big dick to the rent a boy? I'm sure his 3-4. Hour windows to got to the"gym" never made his wife suspicious. He was the old troll who works out for 30 mins, walks around the locker room naked for an hour and then sits in the steam or sauna until someone bites.

He was a decent looking older man albeit creepy as fuck. His wives were both homely and almost lesbian looking. He was really hiding in plain sight.

Creepy closet case with two dead wives at the bottom of two staircases, right?

Yeah, he did it.

[quote] R25: [R23] - when a third-party is present, the client-attorney privilege is gone. The third party can be questioned. Apparently the filmmaker sent his raw footage immediately to a safe drop in Paris.

What if the filmmaker is also an attorney?

When Herod wanted to rebuild the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, before Christ, he was forbidden, because the dirty workmen were not permitted to tread on the holy of holies - the inner sanctum. The sanctum’s exact spot was unknown, as it’s location had been lost to time, during the Babylonian captivity of the Jews. So, the workmen were prohibited from being anywhere nearby.

Herod et al circumvented this prohibition by making all the workmen priests of the temple. As priests, they were allowed to go wherever they chose. Problem solved.

Peterson just needed some Jewish lawyers, rabbinical scholars.

People who doubt his guilt are incredibly gullible. The one thing I'm not sure of is whether he killed the neighbor in Germany or just used that as a model for murdering his own wife. It occurred to me watching the documentary that he might have been having a sexual affair with the woman's husband and she discovered it and confronted him so he gave her a little shove.

I bet Michael Peterson is a datalounger

This gorgeous, military-grade stud has never done a thing wrong in his entire life! He was deeply and obsessively in love with his wife, and it’s all been a set up by media and police who were jealous of how much hot tail he got!

And MP was such a hard-hitting journalist that he had the do-nothing politicos of his little hamlet quaking in their boots, so of course they did everything possible to frame him!

I’m almost finished with the series. I’d have voted not guilty, if I was in the jury.

Michael peterson at R576, you forgot to sign your post. Nobody else would be so stupid.

Forget this old perv. Who is that Todd guy fucking these days. Any pics? Come on DL web sluthes.

Pics of the the masc lacrosse player who Peterson paid please.

Just finished watching the docu on Netflix.

He does betray himself at the end, tripping over the timeline of when he called 911 and finally admitting that Kathleen did NOT know that he was "bisexual." And embedded in his little speech about growing up gay in his generation, without ever using the word GAY, he tells us how concerned he's been his whole life about what people think of him, how he's perceived. In this ending interview he basically provides his motive for killing her. And I'd even had some doubts up until that point. But the truth came right out of his own mouth, in so many words.

Couple that with the fact that he didn't work and Kathleen had a life insurance policy, which The Staircase docu conveniently glossed over or didn't mention at all. To that, who paid for his defense? I had to read this whole DL thread to get that answer (his brother, dad and ex-wife). But who commissioned the docu?

The docu is is unapologetically one-sided but STILL I cringed so hard at MP and his deluded family. Their phoniness and pretension and forced cheerfulness was so hard to tolerate but I wanted to see the docu to the end. I hate them all, now.

I just finally got around to starting this series. Couldn't he have pushed her down the stairs? That way it is his doing, but the injuries still fit with a fall. Or maybe he even tried strangling her first (hence the throat injury) and she fell in the struggle.

Is there something that rules out this possibility? People seem firmly either 1. accidental fall or 2. murderous beating (or 3. owl, but i'm not going to go there), but why not a push?